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  • #76
    Originally posted by Cntrysner View Post
    We can not refuse sin because we are born in it
    If that statement is true, then the entire Bible is false.
    But, since the Bible is true, then your statement is false and we can refuse sin just like the Bible tells us we can.
    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
      The Bible DOES NOT DESCRIBE GOD as being outside of time.
      Yep!
      There is no Biblical justification for believing that God is outside of time.
      Learn to read what is written.

      _____
      The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
      ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by genuineoriginal View Post
        You appear to be using a different definition of necessary than I am.
        I am using the first definition, you are using the second definition.

        necessary
        1. required to be done, achieved, or present; needed; essential.
        2. determined, existing, or happening by natural laws or predestination; inevitable.

        In a philosophical discussion, the second definition is more common and even your own use of it is not consistently in keeping with the first because when you talk about proving something then you're squarely inside the perview of the second definition.

        Regardless, I get the point so, moving on...

        If determinism is true, then the fall is not needed and the fall is not essential for anything at all.
        It is a meaningless event in the meaningless history of a meaningless universe.
        I'm not so sure that it would be meaningless. The fact is that we know that the fall and all it consequences happened and if we assume it was predestined then what does that say about whomever predestined it? Quite a lot, I'd say and nothing good at that!

        The fall is essential in proving that God gave mankind free-will because it shows that man has the free-will choice of obeying God or disobeying God.

        Deuteronomy 30:19-20
        19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
        20 That thou mayest love the Lord thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the Lord sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
        Who was He proving it to? Man either has the ability to choose or he doesn't. God already knows the answer, He doesn't need proof nor is He required to defend Himself to any of His creation.

        All that is necessary (logically) is that there be an actual choice, a real alternative, a way to do or to do otherwise. There is no need for the fall itself to have ever occured at all, never mind to prove anything to anyone.

        Clete
        sigpic
        "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by Clete View Post
          I've already answered this question. It is the Body of Christ, as a group, that is predestined. God has no idea who or how many will join that group, (unless He has some upper limit in mind (Rom. 11:25)), but whomever does has been predestined to be glorified because He has been predestined to be glorified.
          That is not what the passage says:

          "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love" (Eph.1:3-4).

          Paul is saying that God has chosen us in the Body of Christ before the world began. It is "individuals" who are chosen in the Body:
          "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).

          Again, it is "individuals" who are chosen to be members of the group which makes up the Body of Christ:
          "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love" (Eph.1:3-4).

          The believer inherits the spiritual blessings individually, as we read later in the same chapter:

          "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise" (Eph.1:13).

          Different people believe at different times so they are not sealed as a "group," and since they believe at different times they are baptized into the Body of Christ at different times and not as a "group":
          "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).

          Were you baptized into the Body of Christ at the same time, and in a group, as those who were baptized into the Body of Christ in the first century when this epistle was written? Of course not!

          Your whole argument falls apart if you can't make it a group baptism into the Body of Christ.

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
            If inhabiting eternity does not speak of the eternal state then what does it mean?:
            It means an infinite amount of time.

            It's quite the opposite of timelessness.
            sigpic
            "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by Clete View Post
              It means an infinite amount of time.

              It's quite the opposite of timelessness.
              So you are saying that the "eternal state" has "an infinite amount of time." So you acknowledge that there is such a thing as the "eternal state."

              Originally posted by Clete View Post
              I've already answered this question. It is the Body of Christ, as a group, that is predestined. God has no idea who or how many will join that group, (unless He has some upper limit in mind (Rom. 11:25)), but whomever does has been predestined to be glorified because He has been predestined to be glorified.
              That is not what the passage says:

              "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love" (Eph.1:3-4).

              Paul is saying that God has chosen us in the Body of Christ before the world began. It is "individuals" who are chosen in the Body:
              "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).

              Again, it is "individuals" who are chosen to be members of the group which makes up the Body of Christ:
              "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love" (Eph.1:3-4).

              The believer inherits the spiritual blessings individually, as we read later in the same chapter:

              "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise" (Eph.1:13).

              Different people believe at different times so they are not sealed as a "group," and since they believe at different times they are baptized into the Body of Christ at different times and not as a "group":
              "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).

              Were you baptized into the Body of Christ at the same time, and in a group, as those who were baptized into the Body of Christ in the first century when this epistle was written? Of course not!

              Your whole argument falls apart if you can't make it a group baptism into the Body of Christ.

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by beloved57 View Post
                The Fall of man in Adam was necessary because God had already purposed Salvation Mercy through Christ from everlasting to everlasting Ps 103:17

                But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;

                Notice its From Everlasting. This is regards to the Vessels of Mercy Paul wrote of here Rom 9:23
                23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
                454

                Amen Brother !

                God had Purposed from Everlasting to display his Favour upon Particular Chosen sinners
                Eph. 1:4-7, His Vessels of Mercy Rom. 9:23, for a Redemptive Purpose in Christ Jesus Eph. 3:11. And also by His Everlasting Mercy Ps. 103:17 was Purposed that everyone of them will also experience His Regenerating Mercy in New Birth.

                Titus 3:5-6

                5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

                6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
                My soul thirsts for God, the God Who Lives Forever:
                when shall I be brought in to see His Face? -Psalm 42:2

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                  So you are saying that the "eternal state" has "an infinite amount of time." So you acknowledge that there is such a thing as the "eternal state."
                  No, I acknowledge simply that God has always existed and that He always will exist.

                  Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                  That is not what the passage says:

                  "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love" (Eph.1:3-4).
                  How can you say that isn't what it says and then quote it saying exactly what you just denied it said?

                  "He has chosen us in Him..."

                  Paul is saying that God has chosen us in the Body of Christ before the world began. It is "individuals" who are chosen in the Body:
                  "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).
                  Once again, you claim that the verse is saying one thing and then you quote the verse that doesn't say what you just claimed it said!

                  How is that even possible?

                  Where is the singular pronoun in that passage? There isn't one! He is talking about groups, thus the plural pronouns throughout the passage.

                  Again, it is "individuals" who are chosen to be members of the group which makes up the Body of Christ:
                  "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love" (Eph.1:3-4).
                  Three times in a row now you have stated your doctrine and then quoted a passage that contradicts that doctrine! Are you drunk?

                  "...God...hath blessed us...in Christ: He hath chosen us in Him..."

                  The believer inherits the spiritual blessings individually, as we read later in the same chapter:

                  "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise" (Eph.1:13).

                  Different people believe at different times so they are not sealed as a "group," and since they believe at different times they are baptized into the Body of Christ at different times and not as a "group":
                  "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).

                  Were you baptized into the Body of Christ at the same time, and in a group, as those who were baptized into the Body of Christ in the first century when this epistle was written? Of course not!

                  Your whole argument falls apart if you can't make it a group baptism into the Body of Christ.
                  You're conflating two different issues.
                  We are saved individually into a corporate destiny. You are made a member of the Body of Christ when you get saved and it is this Body that has been predestined to Glory. Just as when you personally get on the plane, you're going to DFW along with everyone else who got on the plane. The plane's destination was set before you ever bought your singular ticket.

                  This really isn't that complicated and this is now already getting repetitive. Nothing anyone says will ever convince you this side of the Rapture so I think we're done.

                  Clete
                  sigpic
                  "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Clete View Post
                    I'm not so sure that it would be meaningless. The fact is that we know that the fall and all it consequences happened and if we assume it was predestined then what does that say about whomever predestined it? Quite a lot, I'd say and nothing good at that!
                    You appear to be hinting that only an evil god would orchestrate the fall and condemn most of humanity to eternal damnation in order to gain the praise and glory from the small remnant that were predestined for salvation.

                    Originally posted by Clete View Post
                    Who was He proving it to?
                    God is proving free-will to any of us humans that needs to know that God is not forcing their decisions.
                    Some people even believe that God had to prove to the angels that He gave humankind free-will.

                    Originally posted by Clete View Post
                    Man either has the ability to choose or he doesn't. God already knows the answer, He doesn't need proof nor is He required to defend Himself to any of His creation.

                    All that is necessary (logically) is that there be an actual choice, a real alternative, a way to do or to do otherwise. There is no need for the fall itself to have ever occured at all, never mind to prove anything to anyone.

                    Clete
                    There are many people that have managed to convince themselves that they do not have any actual choices and that there are not any real alternatives.
                    Those are the people that need God to prove to them that their choices are not meaningless.
                    Learn to read what is written.

                    _____
                    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
                    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Clete View Post
                      "He has chosen us in Him..."
                      This verse is saying that God has chosen "us" in the Body of Christ. It is the "individual" believer who is baptized into the Body of Christ:

                      "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).

                      Originally posted by Clete View Post
                      Where is the singular pronoun in that passage? There isn't one! He is talking about groups, thus the plural pronouns throughout the passage.
                      Where is a singular pronoun at 1 Corinthians 12:13? So are you saying that believers were baptized by one Spirit into the Body of Christ as a group?
                      Last edited by Jerry Shugart; September 14th, 2019, 04:56 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                        Where is a singular pronoun at 1 Corinthians 12:13? So are you saying that believers were baptized by one Spirit into the Body of Christ as a group?


                        Originally posted by Clete View Post
                        You're conflating two different issues.
                        We are saved individually into a corporate destiny. You are made a member of the Body of Christ when you get saved and it is this Body that has been predestined to Glory. Just as when you personally get on the plane, you're going to DFW along with everyone else who got on the plane. The plane's destination was set before you ever bought your singular ticket.

                        This really isn't that complicated and this is now already getting repetitive. Nothing anyone says will ever convince you this side of the Rapture so I think we're done.

                        Clete

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
                          Perhaps you will answer my questions:

                          Where is a singular pronoun at 1 Corinthians 12:13? So are you saying that believers were baptized by one Spirit into the Body of Christ as a group?

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                            Perhaps you will answer my questions:

                            Where is a singular pronoun at 1 Corinthians 12:13? So are you saying that believers were baptized by one Spirit into the Body of Christ as a group?
                            Clete answered your last question, Jerry. There's not a whole lot I can do if you can't read it for yourself and understand it.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
                              Clete answered your last question, Jerry. There's not a whole lot I can do if you can't read it for yourself and understand it.
                              He didn't answer my question about 1 Corinthians 12:13 and neither did you.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Nanja View Post
                                Amen Brother !

                                God had Purposed from Everlasting to display his Favour upon Particular Chosen sinners
                                Eph. 1:4-7, His Vessels of Mercy Rom. 9:23, for a Redemptive Purpose in Christ Jesus Eph. 3:11. And also by His Everlasting Mercy Ps. 103:17 was Purposed that everyone of them will also experience His Regenerating Mercy in New Birth.

                                Titus 3:5-6

                                5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

                                6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
                                Amen you nailed it my Sister !
                                "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
                                preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
                                called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
                                a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

                                Charles Spurgeon !

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