Was the fall necessary ?

[genuineoriginal]

That's what Scripture says.

The only kind of faith that pleases God is a fruit of the Spirit given in New Birth.

If that non-Biblical statement of yours is true, then Jesus did not see any faith in the friends of the man that had palsy.

Matthew 9:2 2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; [JESUS]Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.[/JESUS]​

 

[beloved57]

jerry shugart

So we can see that when a person is made alive he receives eternal life and this life is a result of faith.

Lol, too bad you dont have one scripture that says that !

 

[genuineoriginal]

So we can see that when a person is made alive he receives eternal life and this life is a result of faith.

Lol, too bad you dont have one scripture that says that !

Habakkuk 2:4 NET 4 Look, the one whose desires are not upright will faint from exhaustion, but the person of integrity will live because of his faithfulness.​

Or as the KJV states "the just will live by faith".

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The only kind of faith that pleases God is a fruit of the Spirit given in New Birth.

The Calvinist teach that the new birth precedes faith. But the Scriptures reveal that it is faith which is responsible for the new birth:

"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures" (Jas.1:18).​

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23,25).​

 

[Nanja]

The Calvinist teach that the new birth precedes faith.

That's exactly what Scripture teaches. Revisit post #337.

Also, before a person is regenerated or made Spiritually Alive in New Birth, their own faith of the flesh is nothing but filthy rags in God's Sight Is. 64:6; Rom. 8:8; and they can't hear spiritually which is required to hear the Gospel which is Spiritual 1 Cor. 2:13; Prov. 20:12 !

 

[ttruscott]

The wickedness of Satan was his denial of God's sovereign rule,

If there is no free will then Satan could not have denied GOD's sovereign rule but could only have rebelled in accord with HIS sovereign rule.

 

[JudgeRightly]

If there is no free will then Satan could not have denied GOD's sovereign rule but could only have rebelled in accord with HIS sovereign rule.

Not really rebellion, is it?

 

[genuineoriginal]

If there is no free will then Satan could not have denied GOD's sovereign rule but could only have rebelled in accord with HIS sovereign rule.

Either Satan is truly guilty or he was framed by God's sovereign rule?
Is there another possibility (to prevent a false dichotomy)?

 

[Clete]

You're one of the reasons why I'm here and don't forget the impact you have on visitors to this forum. Stay strong and thanks.

It hasn't been a complete waste of time in any event. I managed to get Nang to state on a public forum that the 2nd Person of the Trinity BECAME flesh. That's huge! She never will, of cource, but with that one admission, she may as well drop the whole of Calvinism.

 

[beloved57]

God purposed the Fall, and it was necessary because God purposed a New Heaven and New Earth wherein dwelleth Righteousness throug Christ 2Pet 3:11-13

¹¹ Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

¹² Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

¹³ Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.629

 

[beloved57]

That's exactly what Scripture teaches. Revisit post #337.

Also, before a person is regenerated or made Spiritually Alive in New Birth, their own faith of the flesh is nothing but filthy rags in God's Sight Is. 64:6; Rom. 8:8; and they can't hear spiritually which is required to hear the Gospel which is Spiritual 1 Cor. 2:13; Prov. 20:12 !

Amen Sister. Jesus tells what I believe to be unregenrate jews, merely Abrahams children by natural descendent ,:

Jn 8:43

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

Let it be emphasized Jesus said Ye cannot hear the Word of Christ which denotes inability to hear Christ word So quite naturally that equates to inability to have Faith since Faith cometh by hearing the word of Christ Rom 10:17

So belief cometh of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. asv

 

[beloved57]

If there is no free will then Satan could not have denied GOD's sovereign rule but could only have rebelled in accord with HIS sovereign rule.

Adams will wasnt free from Gods Sovereign rule, that would be to deny Gods Sovereign rule over men, however Adams will was responsible to God. Now man being responsible to God isnt the same thing as man being able to obey God.

For example the Supreme responsibility man had to God in creation I believe is this Matt 22:36-40

[FONT=&quot]36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]38 This is the first and great commandment.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

I dont believe Adam had the ability to Keep the First and Greater Commandment. Why ? Rom 8:3

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:[/FONT]

 

[Nanja]

Amen Sister. Jesus tells what I believe to be unregenrate jews, merely Abrahams children by natural descendent ,:

Jn 8:43

43 [FONT=&]Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

Let it be emphasized Jesus said Ye cannot hear the Word of Christ which denotes inability to hear Christ word So quite naturally that equates to inability to have Faith since Faith cometh by hearing the word of Christ Rom 10:17

[/FONT][FONT=&]So belief [/FONT]cometh of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. asv

Exactly Brother, outside of New Birth a person is lost and dead [no hearing faculty] so his only Hope is that a Sovereign Work of the Spirit makes him Alive, Born of God.

John 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

 

[beloved57]

Exactly Brother, outside of New Birth a person is lost and dead [no hearing faculty] so his only Hope is that a Sovereign Work of the Spirit makes him Alive, Born of God.

John 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

You nailed it Sister ! Once one has been born of God, they have the Spiritual Hearing Faculty need to Hear the Word of Christ/God

[FONT=&quot]Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the [/FONT]truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

And of course we know the everyone here will be the regenerated Sheep Jn 10:16

16 [FONT=&quot]And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.[/FONT]

 

[ttruscott]

Not really rebellion, is it?

Agreed; I don't think so so I conclude that with this theology, Satan is NOT guilty of anything and so cannot be justly punished.

 

[ttruscott]

Either Satan is truly guilty or he was framed by God's sovereign rule?
Is there another possibility (to prevent a false dichotomy)?

He is truly guilty and GOD framed no one because we were all created with a free will and an equal ability and opportunity to put our faith in HIM or to reject HIM because without our free will HIS purpose, the heavenly marriage, could not be fulfilled.

All and every sin is ONLY by the free will decison of the person to rebel against GOD or HIS plans for us.
Earthly life is GOD's response to our choices not our place nor time of choice.
Only self defiled sinners are sown into the world...

 

[JudgeRightly]

Agreed; I don't think so so I conclude that with this theology, Satan is NOT guilty of anything and so cannot be justly punished.

Not according to Calvinism, he can't. Any punishment would be completely arbitrary, because he only did that which God predestined him to do. Doing God's will cannot be considered evil, because God is not evil or unjust. Punishing Satan for doing God's will would be unjust, and would mean that God Himself is unjust.

According to Open Theism, however, God is Just, and Satan IS guilty, of tempting Eve and causing her to sin, for the fall of mankind, and for his rebellion against God since then, and can therefore be justly punished.

 

[genuineoriginal]

He is truly guilty and GOD framed no one because we were all created with a free will and an equal ability and opportunity to put our faith in HIM or to reject HIM because without our free will HIS purpose, the heavenly marriage, could not be fulfilled.

All and every sin is ONLY by the free will decison of the person to rebel against GOD or HIS plans for us.
Earthly life is GOD's response to our choices not our place nor time of choice.

I agree with all that.

Only self defiled sinners are sown into the world...

I am not sure what you are saying here.

 

[Nanja]

God purposed the Fall, and it was necessary because God purposed a New Heaven and New Earth wherein dwelleth Righteousness throug Christ 2Pet 3:11-13

¹¹ Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

¹² Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

¹³ Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.629

Amen Brother ! It was necessary that all the generations of the Chosen Seed Eph. 1:4; the Seed of Abraham; the Seed of Christ Gal. 3:16, 29, would Fall in Adam their Federal Head and be Redeemed by the Blood of Christ the Lamb Rev. 13:8. For these [The Church] were made Righteous by His Obedience on their behalf Rom. 5:19; Is. 53:6 and were already Promised an Eternal Inheritance / the worldwide Everlasting Possession of Canaan.

beloved

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Is. 60:21 Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified.

 

[beloved57]

The Fall was necessary because God created the wicked for the day of evil Prov 16:4

⁴ The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.