Is Calvinism Wrong?

[Rosenritter]

You shouldn't let it rest, you should attempt to use the common sense God gave you.

I don't recall saying anything about "legalism" or "attempting to earn salvation". You're the one who thinks man can obey a commandment to LOVE....before the love of God has even been shed abroad on his heart. A command can't accomplish that.

"What the law could not in that it was weak through the flesh...."

The law cannot make you love God or anyone else. The law was never intended to do any such thing.

The commandment is given so that we will see our guilt...our utter inability to obey the commandments (which Jesus taught included our very thoughts). That is when we fall on our knees and turn to Him for His Grace. The Law was given to lead us to Christ...not to demand we do what we were never created to do on our own.

Common sense tells us that God doesn't give impossible commands. If he bids us to come out and walk on the water, we can therefore walk on water. If he commands us to take up our bed and walk, we can take up our bed and walk. And if he commands us to love one another and to love our enemies, we are capable of loving one another and loving our enemies.

John 15:12-14 KJV
(12) This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
(13) Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
(14) Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

So now we are still back to why have you been arguing so hard against the commandment to love one another? I have been presuming that this conversation is between those that are members in the body of Christ, called his children and also his friends.

 

[glorydaz]

When you say "what is the purpose of the Law" you need to define which Law you are talking about. The Law of God? or the Law of Moses?

I did. I said the Law of God...not the Law of Moses.

So I'll try a short answer. Jesus did not preach for three and a half years on the earth to "preach obedience
to the law of Moses." The "be ye therefore perfect" was not in respect to "perfect keeping of the law of Moses" but to love one another, even to love our enemies, and this was the perfection ultimately required of us to become perfect in love even as our Father in heaven is perfect in love.

I know, we were talking about Matt. 5....clearly concerning the Law of God (The Ten Commandments).

You made a distinction between the Law of Moses and the Law of "Love" as you call it. That Law of "Love" is the Ten Commandments. Don't covet thy neighbor's wife or goods. Don't steal from or kill your neighbor. Why you refuse to admit that is a mystery to me.

Mark 12:28,30 Deuteronomy 6:5
And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.​

Mark 12:31 Lev. 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the Lord.​

Second, Jesus did not preach "the Law" -- he didn't deny the law, he didn't tell people to disobey the law or break the commandments, but that was not the subject of his preaching. Jesus did preach the Law of Love

You mean the Ten Commandments. Just say it. Jesus preached the Law of God when He walked among us.

Glory, would you please read what it is that you are replying to? Carefully, and word by word if need be? What was said is that the Law of Moses CONTAINS the Ten Commandments, and other elements besides. With mathematically certainty, that is not the same as.

Besides this, I don't know why you are arguing against a basic definition of the Law of Moses. This is a well established term.

It never ceases to amaze me the lengths you will go in order to avoid the issue at hand.

If the Law of Moses is such a well established term, why are you showing such confusion concerning it, and what Jesus taught while here in the flesh.

If you are contending that the "Ten Commandments" are the "eternal law of God" you have the problem that there were no Ten Commandments prior to Moses, yet sin still existed in the world, therefore there was a law that existed before those commandments.

Not a problem for me at all. It tells us in Romans 1:21-22 that man was created with the knowledge of God's law written in his conscience. Romans 2:14-15 Man is without excuse.

There may also be some other issues that you do not anticipate, including that one of those Ten Commandments deals specifically with the Sabbath, which occurs at days throughout the year both annually and weekly. The apostles declared that the Sabbaths were not binding, and if the Sabbaths which were established only by commandment through the Ten Commandments through Moses are not binding, then that speaks to the entire Law of Moses, including the Ten Commandments.

As a reminder, this is one of those commandments:

Exodus 20:8 KJV
(8) Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.


If you believe that you are under the "Ten Commandments" you are likely breaking that law, even if out of ignorance. For example, do you know when the annual sabbaths occur? Do you conveniently forget the commandments you do not want to keep, or alternatively are you a "Seventh Day" Adventist (or similar) that also observes the annual sabbaths?

But for now, would you at least please stop arguing against known and established definitions like "the Law of Moses?"

Jesus is our Sabbath rest. I'm not breaking any law, because I am no longer under the law.

But, you crack me up. I realize you'd like for me to let you get away with your obfuscation, but that would be wrong. First, I never said I was under the Ten Commandments, the Law of God did exactly what it was designed to do in me. The Law led me to Christ for His mercy and grace.

So, that brings us full circle, once again, to the purpose of the law. :chew:

You should know that by preaching the Law of Love you are preaching the Ten Commandments, and we're right back where we started.

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.​

 

[glorydaz]

Common sense tells us that God doesn't give impossible commands. If he bids us to come out and walk on the water, we can therefore walk on water. If he commands us to take up our bed and walk, we can take up our bed and walk. And if he commands us to love one another and to love our enemies, we are capable of loving one another and loving our enemies.

We aren't capable of walking on water unless God performs a miracle. Same with a lame man being healed. Nor are we capable of loving our enemies, until we are empowered to do so through the Spirit within.

Romans 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

So now we are still back to why have you been arguing so hard against the commandment to love one another? I have been presuming that this conversation is between those that are members in the body of Christ, called his children and also his friends.

You presume that because you aren't looking at the PURPOSE of the Law. The PURPOSE of a commandment. You need to look to Paul. You won't hear it from John.

Romans 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.​

 

[Rosenritter]

It never ceases to amaze me the lengths you will go in order to avoid the issue at hand.

If the Law of Moses is such a well established term, why are you showing such confusion concerning it, and what Jesus taught while here in the flesh.

I already provided three additional sources (I chose the first ones that hit the top of Google) including Bible dictionaries to demonstrate that the Law of Moses includes the Ten Commandments. I think that demonstrates that it is a well-established term. If you want to contest that established understanding of the term, you should address the question on its merits with substance.

 

[Rosenritter]

You made a distinction between the Law of Moses and the Law of "Love" as you call it. That Law of "Love" is the Ten Commandments. Don't covet thy neighbor's wife or goods. Don't steal from or kill your neighbor. Why you refuse to admit that is a mystery to me.

Mark 12:28,30 Deuteronomy 6:5
And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.​

Mark 12:31 Lev. 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the Lord.​

The Ten Commandments can be kept without love for your neighbor. "Thou shalt not steal" is simply a negative that can be kept in the carnal sense., and "love thy neighbor as thyself" wasn't one of those ten commandments.

You mean the Ten Commandments. Just say it. Jesus preached the Law of God when He walked among us.

No, he taught the spiritual law that came before those commandments, that those commandments were based upon. That's why Jesus had a different definition of murder and adultery than what had been defined by those commandments.

Jesus is our Sabbath rest. I'm not breaking any law, because I am no longer under the law.

While I might agree that we are not under the Law of Moses (including Ten Commandments) it disturbs me that you say that "Love God" and "Love thy neighbor" aren't applicable to you in the sense of a greater eternal law. You've bristled at the idea that God commands us to love one another, and as such I cannot say that I see your understanding as having a positive effect.

You should know that by preaching the Law of Love you are preaching the Ten Commandments, and we're right back where we started.

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.​

"The Law of Love" is a term that I introduced for the sake of conversation. I admit that that is not a wording found in scripture, and as such I provided the definition for the term. That meaning was "the eternal law of God that existed before the law of Moses and which shall always exist...." in contrast to the Law of Moses which was given to Israel at Mount Sinai. So NO, by definition (my definition, since no one else defined the term) the Law of Love is NOT the Law of Moses.

 

[Rosenritter]

We aren't capable of walking on water unless God performs a miracle. Same with a lame man being healed. Nor are we capable of loving our enemies, until we are empowered to do so through the Spirit within.

You presume that because you aren't looking at the PURPOSE of the Law. The PURPOSE of a commandment. You need to look to Paul. You won't hear it from John.

I just said that I presumed that this conversation is between members of the body of Christ, and those called his children, and also his friends. I presumed that you were among these. Before stating that my presumption was incorrect, would you like to think carefully before excluding yourself from any of these categories?

It additionally concerns me is that you are now tossing aside Jesus and John as if Paul somehow 1) says something contradictory and 2) as if there is a superior doctrine to that preached by our LORD. The purpose of those commandments are direct and not hidden. Jesus states the purpose directly:

Matthew 5:44-45 KJV
(44) But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
(45) That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

I'm going to cut through this to the end. I have omitted terms and phrases for which you might object, so please answer directly:

1. Do attempt to fulfill through faith and practice "Love God" and does this change manifest itself in your life?
2. Do attempt to fulfill through faith and practice "Love thy neighbor as thyself" and does this change manifest itself in your life?
3. Do attempt to fulfill through faith and practice "Love thy enemies" and does this change manifest itself in your life?
4. Do attempt to fulfill through faith and practice "Love one another" and does this change manifest itself in your life?

Spoiler

Because it matters far less what reasoning we take to get from here to the end, or whether we say we will obey, but rather whether we actually do his will at the end...

Matthew 21:28-31 KJV
(28) But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.
(29) He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.
(30) And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.
(31) Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. ...

 

[glorydaz]

I already provided three additional sources (I chose the first ones that hit the top of Google) including Bible dictionaries to demonstrate that the Law of Moses includes the Ten Commandments. I think that demonstrates that it is a well-established term. If you want to contest that established understanding of the term, you should address the question on its merits with substance.

Well, by all means let's cherry pick some Google sources. lain:

If you insist on the Law of Moses including the Ten Commandments, what will you do with the fact that the Law of Moses was temporary and for the Jews only? Are you sure you want to go there?

God's Law is the Ten commandments written with the finger of God, and is eternal for everyone. Your confusion comes because the Book of the Law includes the first 5 books of the Bible. You might want to explain that to Google.


Here's the first that "hit the top of Google" for me.

If a person fails to differentiate these laws, s/he gets confused with which part of the law applies to him/her.

God laws are the Ten Commandments found in Exodus 20 while Mosaic Law are all other Old Testament laws found in the Torah or Pentateuch books (first five books of the bible).

Spoiler

God laws were audibly spoken by God at Mount Sinai Ex 19:9, 20:1 And the LORD said to Moses, Lo, I come to you in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with you, and believe you for ever. And God spoke all these words, saying… While Moses laws were not given audibly but given to Moses privately.
God laws were directly written by the figure of God on table stones Ex 31:18: And he gave to Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God, while the Law of Moses was not written by God but by Moses inspired by God Deut 31:9 And Moses wrote this law.
It is God who commanded His laws in Mount. Sinai Deut 4:13-14: And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that you might do them in the land which you go over to possess it. While Moses commanded his laws (the statutes and judgments) to the children of Israel. Notice the two different commanders of the two laws.
The law of God was preserved uniquely inside the ark of covenant Ex 25:16: And you shall put into the ark the testimony which I shall give you, while the Law of Moses was place on the side of the ark Deut 31:24-26: And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, that Moses commanded the Levites, which bear the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying, take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against you.
2Ki 21:8: Neither will I make the feet of Israel move any more out of the land which I gave their fathers; only if they will observe to do according to all that I have commanded them, and according to all the law that my servant Moses commanded them. From this verse we see also that there are two different laws. God uses the words ‘I have commanded them’ meaning the Ten Commandments while ‘The laws that my servant Moses commanded them’ meaning the laws of Moses.
Daniel revealed this difference between these laws. Dan 9:11: Yea, all Israel have transgressed your law, even by departing, that they might not obey you voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him. ‘Your law’ referring to God laws; the Ten Commandments while ‘the law of Moses’ referring to the Mosaic Law.

A Christian has to differentiate these two laws because God’s law (the Ten Commandments) applies to all people at all times while the Law of Moses is specifically for the Jewish people.



http://www.christiantruthcenter.com/difference-between-god-laws-and-mosaic-law/

Please take the time to read this, so we can end this silly bit of beat around the bush.

 

[glorydaz]

The Ten Commandments can be kept without love for your neighbor. "Thou shalt not steal" is simply a negative that can be kept in the carnal sense., and "love thy neighbor as thyself" wasn't one of those ten commandments.

Of course it was. Try the second reading you'll find in Deut. 5 and 6 where there is an elaboration. And think about it, all the last six commandments speak of loving your neighbor.

No, he taught the spiritual law that came before those commandments, that those commandments were based upon. That's why Jesus had a different definition of murder and adultery than what had been defined by those commandments.

No, the Lord did not have a different definition than that of the commandments. He had a different definition than what the scribes and pharisees were claiming. "You have heard it said..."

Matt. 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:​

While I might agree that we are not under the Law of Moses (including Ten Commandments) it disturbs me that you say that "Love God" and "Love thy neighbor" aren't applicable to you in the sense of a greater eternal law. You've bristled at the idea that God commands us to love one another, and as such I cannot say that I see your understanding as having a positive effect.

I haven't "bristled" at any such thing. I'm trying to show you that love cannot be commanded, any more than "Be perfect" can be. Those commands are purposed to bring us to our knees in acknowledgement that we need God's grace. The PURPOSE of the law is to show men their sin and need for a Saviour. Which I have said since we started having this conversation.

"The Law of Love" is a term that I introduced for the sake of conversation. I admit that that is not a wording found in scripture, and as such I provided the definition for the term. That meaning was "the eternal law of God that existed before the law of Moses and which shall always exist...." in contrast to the Law of Moses which was given to Israel at Mount Sinai. So NO, by definition (my definition, since no one else defined the term) the Law of Love is NOT the Law of Moses.

It's the Law of God. The question is what is it's PURPOSE?

Does it give us ability to do what is commanded?

 

[glorydaz]

I just said that I presumed that this conversation is between members of the body of Christ, and those called his children, and also his friends. I presumed that you were among these. Before stating that my presumption was incorrect, would you like to think carefully before excluding yourself from any of these categories?

Yes, you presume way too much and all too often. :chuckle:

John was sent to the Jews, as were Peter and James. John was addressing the Jews. You fail to bear that in mind as you read Scripture.

Gal. 2:7-9 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; 8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles: ) 9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision. ​

It additionally concerns me is that you are now tossing aside Jesus and John as if Paul somehow 1) says something contradictory and 2) as if there is a superior doctrine to that preached by our LORD. The purpose of those commandments are direct and not hidden. Jesus states the purpose directly:

Matthew 5:44-45 KJV

You continue to try my patience when you make such false accusations, but don't worry. I can handle it.

I've never tossed anything Jesus or John have said. I simply understand what is being said and to whom it is addressed. There is no IF about it. Paul preached what the RISEN AND ASCENDED LORD JESUS CHRIST REVEALED to him. Of course it's superior. It's Mercy and Grace trumping the Law. It's salvation by Grace through faith without the works of the Law.

I'm going to cut through this to the end. I have omitted terms and phrases for which you might object, so please answer directly:

1. Do attempt to fulfill through faith and practice "Love God" and does this change manifest itself in your life?
2. Do attempt to fulfill through faith and practice "Love thy neighbor as thyself" and does this change manifest itself in your life?
3. Do attempt to fulfill through faith and practice "Love thy enemies" and does this change manifest itself in your life?
4. Do attempt to fulfill through faith and practice "Love one another" and does this change manifest itself in your life?

Spoiler

Because it matters far less what reasoning we take to get from here to the end, or whether we say we will obey, but rather whether we actually do his will at the end...

Matthew 21:28-31 KJV
(28) But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.
(29) He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.
(30) And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.
(31) Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. ...

Attempt all you like, you will fall short. I have entered into REST...ceased from my own labors, and trust entirely in Him to perform what He began in me.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

...

 

[Rosenritter]

Well, by all means let's cherry pick some Google sources. lain:

"Cherry picking" implies picking and choosing from a mix to try to selectively show one thing to the exclusion of other evidence. The top three hits on Google is not "cherry picking" and is useful for demonstrating pervasive understanding. Please, perspective please? That was a fair demonstration.

If you insist on the Law of Moses including the Ten Commandments, what will you do with the fact that the Law of Moses was temporary and for the Jews only? Are you sure you want to go there?

Absolutely, let's go there please. The Law of Moses was given to Israel and exclusive to Israel; it was a specific law with specific jurisdiction. If you have a question from this please go ahead.

God's Law is the Ten commandments written with the finger of God, and is eternal for everyone. Your confusion comes because the Book of the Law includes the first 5 books of the Bible. You might want to explain that to Google.

God had law that existed before the Ten Commandments were ever written. "Thou shalt not eat of the tree..." was a commandment and the law governing Eden, for example. And if you say that the Ten Commandments are eternal for everyone... that doesn't add up, because you have already said that you exclude yourself from the fourth commandment. Something about Christians not needing the commandments, so maybe you meant "for everyone except Christians?"

Please don't be hasty to debate about the range of meanings of the words "law" and "Law" and "Moses." It is well recognized that these can mean different things depending on context, ranging from all the books of the entire Old Testament to the first five books to the person to Mosaic law and even to local law.

I am more interested in your answer to those four questions earlier, if you can spare a moment?

 

[Rosenritter]

Attempt all you like, you will fall short. I have entered into REST...ceased from my own labors, and trust entirely in Him to perform what He began in me.

Why do you evade these particular questions?

1. Do attempt to fulfill through faith and practice "Love God" and does this change manifest itself in your life?
2. Do attempt to fulfill through faith and practice "Love thy neighbor as thyself" and does this change manifest itself in your life?
3. Do attempt to fulfill through faith and practice "Love thy enemies" and does this change manifest itself in your life?
4. Do attempt to fulfill through faith and practice "Love one another" and does this change manifest itself in your life?

 

[Clete]

Why do you evade these particular questions?

1. Do attempt to fulfill through faith and practice "Love God" and does this change manifest itself in your life?
2. Do attempt to fulfill through faith and practice "Love thy neighbor as thyself" and does this change manifest itself in your life?
3. Do attempt to fulfill through faith and practice "Love thy enemies" and does this change manifest itself in your life?
4. Do attempt to fulfill through faith and practice "Love one another" and does this change manifest itself in your life?

If it manifests itself in your life because you're trying really hard to be a good or better person or because you think you owe God something, then, even if you succeed you've failed. All such works are of the flesh and will be burned up on that Great Day.

If you have been saved by grace alone through faith alone, by what method of reasoning do you conclude that you are made perfect by some other means?

As you were saved, so walk. There is no other way that God will accept.

It is not you but Christ. Christ will live His life through you and good fruit will be the result but it has to be Him doing it, not you.

Your roll is belief in the biblical facts concerning your righteousness in Him not effort intended to accomplish that goal. Trying to attain perfection is to believe you aren't already perfect in Him.

You have been accepted in Christ and He ALONE is your standing. You are not on probation. You died on the Cross, you were executed by the law - in Him - and He is now your life.

William. R. Newell wrote the following in his classic, Romans, Verse by Verse...

“The Proper Attitude of Man Under Grace:

“To believe, and to consent to be loved while unworthy, is the great secret.
“To refuse to make ‘resolutions’ and ‘vows’; for that is to trust in the flesh.
“To expect to be blessed, though realizing more and more lack of worth…
“To rely on God’s chastening [child training] hand as a mark of His kindness…

“Things Which Gracious Souls Discover:

“To ‘hope to be better’ [hence acceptable] is to fail to see yourself in Christ only.
“To be disappointed with yourself, is to have believed in yourself.
“To be discouraged is unbelief,—as to God’s purpose and plan of blessing for you.
“To be proud, is to be blind! For we have no standing before God, in ourselves.
“The lack of Divine blessing, therefore, comes from unbelief, and not from failure of devotion…
“To preach devotion first, and blessing second, is to reverse God’s order, and preach law, not grace. The Law made man’s blessing depend on devotion; Grace confers undeserved, unconditional blessing: our devotion may follow, but does not always do so,—in proper measure.”​

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Rosenritter]

Originally Posted by Rosenritter

Why do you evade these particular questions?

1. Do attempt to fulfill through faith and practice "Love God" and does this change manifest itself in your life?
2. Do attempt to fulfill through faith and practice "Love thy neighbor as thyself" and does this change manifest itself in your life?
3. Do attempt to fulfill through faith and practice "Love thy enemies" and does this change manifest itself in your life?
4. Do attempt to fulfill through faith and practice "Love one another" and does this change manifest itself in your life?

If it manifests itself in your life because you're trying really hard to be a good or better person or because you think you owe God something, then, even if you succeed you've failed. All such works are of the flesh and will be burned up on that Great Day.

Spoiler

If you have been saved by grace alone through faith alone, by what method of reasoning do you conclude that you are made perfect by some other means?

As you were saved, so walk. There is no other way that God will accept.

It is not you but Christ. Christ will live His life through you and good fruit will be the result but it has to be Him doing it, not you.

Your roll is belief in the biblical facts concerning your righteousness in Him not effort intended to accomplish that goal. Trying to attain perfection is to believe you aren't already perfect in Him.

You have been accepted in Christ and He ALONE is your standing. You are not on probation. You died on the Cross, you were executed by the law - in Him - and He is now your life.

William. R. Newell wrote the following in his classic, Romans, Verse by Verse...

“The Proper Attitude of Man Under Grace:

“To believe, and to consent to be loved while unworthy, is the great secret.
“To refuse to make ‘resolutions’ and ‘vows’; for that is to trust in the flesh.
“To expect to be blessed, though realizing more and more lack of worth…
“To rely on God’s chastening [child training] hand as a mark of His kindness…

“Things Which Gracious Souls Discover:

“To ‘hope to be better’ [hence acceptable] is to fail to see yourself in Christ only.
“To be disappointed with yourself, is to have believed in yourself.
“To be discouraged is unbelief,—as to God’s purpose and plan of blessing for you.
“To be proud, is to be blind! For we have no standing before God, in ourselves.
“The lack of Divine blessing, therefore, comes from unbelief, and not from failure of devotion…
“To preach devotion first, and blessing second, is to reverse God’s order, and preach law, not grace. The Law made man’s blessing depend on devotion; Grace confers undeserved, unconditional blessing: our devotion may follow, but does not always do so,—in proper measure.”​

Resting in Him,
Clete

Those were not supposed to be difficult and they weren't trick questions. Clete, why all the long elaborate smoke screen yet without actually answering what was asked?

 

[genuineoriginal]

If it manifests itself in your life because you're trying really hard to be a good or better person or because you think you owe God something, then, even if you succeed you've failed.

You seem to be ignoring some of the things Paul said.
Paul said the following in a discussion about strong Christians that were judging weak Christians because the weak Christians kept the Sabbath and did not eat meat sacrificed to idols:

Romans 14:4 4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.​

Please listen to Paul and stop trying to take away another person's salvation.

Romans 14:22-23 22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. 23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.​

All such works are of the flesh and will be burned up on that Great Day.

You seem to be confused about what works of the flesh means.
These are works of the flesh:

Galatians 5:19-21 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.​

Obeying your lord is not works of the flesh, it is simply what it is our duty to do:

Luke 17:7-10 7 But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat? 8 And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink? 9 Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not. 10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.​

If you have been saved by grace alone through faith alone

You are adding words to the verse and changing a true doctrine into a false doctrine.

Ephesians 2:8-9 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.​

The verse does not say "by grace alone" it says "by grace".
The verse does not say "through faith alone" it says "through faith".
Grace is God showing favor on those that please Him.
Faith is about the way you serve your Lord and the reasons you have for how you serve your Lord.

Jesus spoke about different kinds of servants and how they served their Lord or not.
The wicked servant did the things that his Lord hated.
The worthless servant knew what his Lord wanted him to do, but did not do it.
The ignorant servant did not know what his Lord wanted him to do.
And the wise servant did everything his Lord wanted him to do and more.

Luke 12:45-48 45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.​

Luke 19:17 17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.​

Now I predict that you are going to close your mind at this point and reject what faith is because you are assuming that serving your Lord is works and the verse states that you are not saved by works.
Faith is not the works you do, but the way you do those works and the reason you have for how you do those works.

If you have no works, that shows that you have no faith.
If you have faith, your faith is shown in your works.
That is why James stated:

James 2:17-18 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.​

It is not you but Christ. Christ will live His life through you and good fruit will be the result but it has to be Him doing it, not you.

That is a complete distortion of scripture.
You are treating the Lord Jesus Christ as if He is the servant and putting yourself as Lord over Him by expecting Him to do everything for you.

Your roll is belief in the biblical facts concerning your righteousness in Him not effort intended to accomplish that goal. Trying to attain perfection is to believe you aren't already perfect in Him.

My role is to be His servant, to love Him, and to do His will.
Any reward He may want to give me beyond that is up to Him alone.
But, I believe He is willing to reward His servants when they please Him through their faith.

Hebrews 11:6 6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.​

 

[john w]

You are adding words to the verse and changing a true doctrine into a false doctrine.

Ephesians 2:8-9 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.​

The verse does not say "by grace alone" it says "by grace".
The verse does not say "through faith alone" it says "through faith".

Fine. By that "argument," show us any verse that teaches "Christ alone," fotr justification/salvation.

Go on record. Go ahead.


Sophistry.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Fine. By that "argument," show us any verse that teaches "Christ alone," fotr justification/salvation.

John 14:6 6 Jesus saith unto him, [JESUS]I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.[/JESUS]​

John 5:39 39 [JESUS]Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.[/JESUS]​

1 John 5:13 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.​

 

[john w]

John 14:6 6 Jesus saith unto him, [JESUS]I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.[/JESUS]​

John 5:39 39 [JESUS]Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.[/JESUS]​

1 John 5:13 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.​

Observe, the continued deception, hypocrisy. You argued:

You are adding words to the verse and changing a true doctrine into a false doctrine.
The verse does not say "by grace alone" it says "by grace".
The verse does not say "through faith alone" it says "through faith".

Fine. By that "argument," show us any verse that teaches, says, "Christ alone," for justification/salvation.

Go on record. Go ahead.

None of the verses you quoted, says "alone," deceiver, as you employed in your argument.


You fraud. And TOL knows it, as "You are adding words to the verse," and thus, on record, assert that "Christ alone" is a false doctrine.

 

[genuineoriginal]

None of the verses you quoted, says "alone," deceiver, as you employed in your argument.

My argument is against adding the word alone to change the meaning of the verse.
The only problem I see is your inability to understand English.

Adding alone to Jesus does not change the verses I listed.

John 14:6 6 Jesus saith unto him, [JESUS]I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me[/JESUS] alone.​

John 5:39 39 [JESUS]Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me[/JESUS] alone.​

1 John 5:13 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God alone; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.​

Changing "for by grace you are saved through faith" to "for by grace alone you are saved through faith alone" does change the meaning of the verse.

 

[john w]

My argument is against adding the word alone to change the meaning of the verse.
The only problem I see is your inability to understand English.

Adding alone to Jesus does not change the verses I listed.

John 14:6 6 Jesus saith unto him, [JESUS]I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me[/JESUS] alone.​

John 5:39 39 [JESUS]Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me[/JESUS] alone.​

1 John 5:13 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God alone; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.​

Changing "for by grace you are saved through faith" to "for by grace alone you are saved through faith alone" does change the meaning of the verse.

Spin, continued deception, moving the goal posts, as is your MO, "ministry," on TOL, deceiver. You "argued:"

You are adding words to the verse and changing a true doctrine into a false doctrine.
The verse does not say "by grace alone" it says "by grace".
The verse does not say "through faith alone" it says "through faith".

None of the verses you quoted, says "alone," deceiver, as you employed in your argument.


You fraud. And TOL knows it, as "You are adding words to the verse," and thus, on record, assert that "Christ alone" is a false doctrine.


You deceptive troll/ette.