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  • The Vicarious Life and Death of Christ for the Believer

    Here is something that you can have faith and believe in, and there is plenty of scripture to back it up. I learned this doctrine from a group of Christian scholars back in the 70's. It changed the way that I believed. I was very religious. All of my religious chains fell off when I learned this and I became God's free man in Jesus Christ.

    All that Jesus Christ is and all that Jesus Christ has done is ours by faith.

    Jesus Christ is God's great free gift for all of humanity. Not only is salvation a free gift from God that cannot be earned, deserved or imposed, Jesus himself is also God's great free gift.

    "When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall you also appear with him in glory" Colossians 3:4.

    Christ is our life. Our real life is at the right hand of God in heaven. It is the life that has been made perfect through suffering, Hebrews 2:10 and will make us perfect through his suffering.

    "Therefore as by the offense of one (Adam) judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one (Christ) THE FREE GIFT came upon all men unto justification of life" Romans 5:18.

    When Jesus lived, we lived in him.

    When Jesus died, we died with him.

    When Jesus arose from the dead, we arose with him.

    When Jesus ascended into heaven, we ascended with him.

    The vicarious life and death of Christ was such a reality to Paul that Paul screamed out at the legalistic Galatians, "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live" Galatians 2:20.

    The old Adamic Paul had been put to death in Jesus Christ, and a new born again Paul had been resurrected in Jesus Christ.

    "For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall also be in the likeness of his resurrection" Romans 6:5.

    We are in the likeness of his resurrection because we have been born again by the word of God, which is the Gospel, 1 Peter 1:23. The new man in Christ is no longer concerned about sin, because he believes that his sins have been atoned for. The new man in Christ is not religious because he believes that he is complete in Jesus Christ, Colossians 2:10.

    The vicarious death of Christ is spelled out for us in 2 Corinthians 5:21.

    "For he (God) has made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him".

    Jesus in our name and on our behalf becomes sin for us. We are indeed in some very deep water here. How did Jesus become sin for us? While Jesus was hanging on the cross God took all of the sins of the world and our sins and put them on Jesus, 1 John 2:2. "He that knew no sin became sin for us". When God saw the sins of the world on Jesus, God put him to death. The sins of the whole world have been atoned for.

    The holy righteous life of Jesus has been lived for us. It is the life that was lived for our justification, Romans 3:26. Jesus has atoned for our sins and the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2. We now stand as complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10.

    "And has raised us up together and has made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" Ephesians 2:6.

    When Jesus entered into heaven, spiritually, we entered in heaven with him. Our salvation is in a very safe place. No one can steal it. No one can pervert it. It is our inheritance that is incorruptible and undefiled and that cannot fade away, reserved for you in heaven, 1 Peter 1:4.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Robert Pate View Post
    Here is something that you can have faith and believe in, and there is plenty of scripture to back it up. I learned this doctrine from a group of Christian scholars back in the 70's. It changed the way that I believed. I was very religious. All of my religious chains fell off when I learned this and I became God's free man in Jesus Christ.

    All that Jesus Christ is and all that Jesus Christ has done is ours by faith.

    Jesus Christ is God's great free gift for all of humanity. Not only is salvation a free gift from God that cannot be earned, deserved or imposed, Jesus himself is also God's great free gift.

    "When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall you also appear with him in glory" Colossians 3:4.

    Christ is our life. Our real life is at the right hand of God in heaven. It is the life that has been made perfect through suffering, Hebrews 2:10 and will make us perfect through his suffering.

    "Therefore as by the offense of one (Adam) judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one (Christ) THE FREE GIFT came upon all men unto justification of life" Romans 5:18.

    When Jesus lived, we lived in him.

    When Jesus died, we died with him.

    When Jesus arose from the dead, we arose with him.

    When Jesus ascended into heaven, we ascended with him.

    The vicarious life and death of Christ was such a reality to Paul that Paul screamed out at the legalistic Galatians, "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live" Galatians 2:20.

    The old Adamic Paul had been put to death in Jesus Christ, and a new born again Paul had been resurrected in Jesus Christ.

    "For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall also be in the likeness of his resurrection" Romans 6:5.

    We are in the likeness of his resurrection because we have been born again by the word of God, which is the Gospel, 1 Peter 1:23. The new man in Christ is no longer concerned about sin, because he believes that his sins have been atoned for. The new man in Christ is not religious because he believes that he is complete in Jesus Christ, Colossians 2:10.

    The vicarious death of Christ is spelled out for us in 2 Corinthians 5:21.

    "For he (God) has made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him".

    Jesus in our name and on our behalf becomes sin for us. We are indeed in some very deep water here. How did Jesus become sin for us? While Jesus was hanging on the cross God took all of the sins of the world and our sins and put them on Jesus, 1 John 2:2. "He that knew no sin became sin for us". When God saw the sins of the world on Jesus, God put him to death. The sins of the whole world have been atoned for.

    The holy righteous life of Jesus has been lived for us. It is the life that was lived for our justification, Romans 3:26. Jesus has atoned for our sins and the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2. We now stand as complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10.

    "And has raised us up together and has made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" Ephesians 2:6.

    When Jesus entered into heaven, spiritually, we entered in heaven with him. Our salvation is in a very safe place. No one can steal it. No one can pervert it. It is our inheritance that is incorruptible and undefiled and that cannot fade away, reserved for you in heaven, 1 Peter 1:4.
    You teach that sinners Christ died for are still lost and condemned, making His Vicarious Life and Death obsolete and unable to Save!
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

    Comment


    • #3
      This is probably going to be a good article for some. Satan always sends one of his demons to try and refute it.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Robert Pate View Post
        The holy righteous life of Jesus has been lived for us. It is the life that was lived for our justification, Romans 3:26. [/B]
        That is "vicarious law keeping, "Pate, and is a perversion of the gospel of Christ, as you've been shown, for years. Romans 3:26..


        Romans 3:26 KJV
        To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


        ....has NADA to do with the Lord Jesus Christ living a righteous life on earth, keeping the law, and thus this "righteousness" is vicariously credited to us, per your "argument."


        Righteousness is apart from the law-He is our righteousness, because we are in Him. .

        1 Corinthians 1:30 KJVBut of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
        Saint John W

        Comment


        • #5
          How is it ethical to visit the sins of the fathers on the sons?

          How can vicarious punishment be ethical?

          Stuart

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Stuu View Post
            How is it ethical to visit the sins of the fathers on the sons?
            See:
            http://theologyonline.com/showthread...=1#post4841151
            http://theologyonline.com/showthread...=1#post4841424

            Originally posted by Stuu View Post
            How can vicarious punishment be ethical?
            Depends upon one's notions of ethics, especially God's.

            I would argue that it is impossible to properly affirm Christ as Victor unless it is based on penal substitution. Man's bondage must be an act of divine justice. The alternative would be that fallen man is bound to creatures which operate outside of divine moral government, which is preposterous. If man's bondage is an act of punishment which has been enacted in divine justice, his release from that bondage could only be possible by the remitting of divine punishment through the satisfaction of justice. Otherwise Christ's victory would be something other than just. It is only on the basis of penal substitution, then, that the Christus Victor doctrine can be of any value or meaning. Christ redeemed by price and by power.

            AMR
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            Comment


            • #7
              Again-this "The holy righteous life of Jesus has been lived for us. It is the life that was lived for our justification...He fulfilled all righteousness on our behalf"=
              This is perverting the gospel of Christ, as that is "vicarious lawkeeping," and no scripture says that.


              The members of the boc's righteousness starts with the death of the Lord Jesus Christ, as the risen, ascended, glorified, and seated Lord Jesus Christ is the individual member's righteousness, as we are "in Christ," united with Him, as He has become our righteousness(1 Cor. 1:30 KJV), not the Lord Jesus Christ fulfilling the law in our place, i.e., "vicarious law keeping." The member of the boc has NADA to with the law-there is no connection.


              "But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;" Romans 3:21 KJV


              Repeating, as you learn, through repetition:


              The members of the boc's righteousness starts with the death of the Lord Jesus Christ, as the risen, ascended, glorified, and seated Lord Jesus Christ is the individual member's righteousness, as we are "in Christ," united with Him, as He has become our righteousness(1 Cor. 1:30 KJV), not the Lord Jesus Christ fulfilling the law in our place, i.e., "vicarious law keeping." The member of the boc has NADA to with the law-there is no connection.

              "ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ;" Rom. 7:4 KJV

              Romans 7:1-7 KJV....

              "Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? "

              The law has power, jurisdiction, over a man/woman, only as long as they are alive.

              Light bulb?

              "For ye are dead,.." Col. 3:3 KJV

              A dead man is not subject to any civil, or "religious"(used generically here) law. Thus, the member of the boc, who is reckoned dead, is not subject to the law, because he/she is considered dead, risen, seated with the Lord Jesus Christ. The law has lost its authority, to bring either condemnation, or righteousness,through the "vicarious obedience/law keeping" of the Lord Jesus Christ. And therefore, Paul asserts Romans 10:4 KJV.

              Had the Lord Jesus Christ only kept the law, we would all be "Krispy Kritters." Anyone who kept the law, it would have been the righteousness of the law, not the righteousness of God(memorize that), which has NADA to do with obeying the law.

              His Holy character was essential to His nature, as well as proving that He was qualified to become our "lamb ...without blemish"(Ex. 12:5 KJV), attested to by Peter(1 Peter 1:19 KJV). But for what purpose? For sacrifice. But His holiness was not vicarious, or "credited" to us in some way. The good news is not that He lived our obedience for us, but that "Christ...died for our sins...was buried...he rose again the third day...was raised again for our justification."(1 Cor. 15:1-4 KJV, Rom. 4:25 KJV).


              "Anyone who believes and trusts in the righteous works of Jesus Christ, rather than in their own works to find forgiveness from God, is elect"-Nag in the past

              No, He is our righteousness.



              1 Corinthians 1 KJV
              30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:




              “Jesus Christ revealed His sinlessness in an assumed body of flesh, under the Law.He accomplished legal righteousness for us, because no sinner can keep the holy laws of God. Only the Son of God, come as the Son of Man, could achieve such righteousness. He did for us, what we never could have done for ourselves.The Law is not bad. The Law is holy and righteous.The only thing bad about the Law, is we can't keep it. But Jesus Christ did and His faithfulness, including His suffering the wrath of God and dying our sentence of death in our stead, allowed His righteousness to be imputed to us. His resurrection is our guarantee of everlasting life, for now we live in Him, and are no longer under obligation to the Law for self-righteousness.You really would benefit from some study of Christ's Office of Mediator.”-Nag in the past

              "He accomplished legal righteousness for us, "-Naggie

              Yes, righteousness is imputed to us, but no on ....


              "He accomplished legal righteousness for us, because no sinner can keep the holy laws of God.."-Nag in the past

              ...as it has NADA to do with the Saviour keeping the holy laws of God on our behalf. That is "vicarious lawkeeping," and perverts the gospel of Christ. Him keeping the holy law of God qualified Him to be the "lamb without blemish," to be the propitiation(satisfactory sacrifice).
              Saint John W

              Comment


              • #8
                I'm sure you will be thinking I should be grateful for your references. I couldn't see any ethical arguments though.

                Depends upon one's notions of ethics, especially God's.

                I would argue that it is impossible to properly affirm Christ as Victor unless it is based on penal substitution. Man's bondage must be an act of divine justice. The alternative would be that fallen man is bound to creatures which operate outside of divine moral government, which is preposterous. If man's bondage is an act of punishment which has been enacted in divine justice, his release from that bondage could only be possible by the remitting of divine punishment through the satisfaction of justice. Otherwise Christ's victory would be something other than just. It is only on the basis of penal substitution, then, that the Christus Victor doctrine can be of any value or meaning. Christ redeemed by price and by power.
                So christianity makes necessary the immorality that is vicarious punishment?

                Stuart

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by john w View Post
                  That is "vicarious law keeping, "Pate, and is a perversion of the gospel of Christ, as you've been shown, for years. Romans 3:26..


                  Romans 3:26 KJV
                  To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


                  ....has NADA to do with the Lord Jesus Christ living a righteous life on earth, keeping the law, and thus this "righteousness" is vicariously credited to us, per your "argument."


                  Righteousness is apart from the law-He is our righteousness, because we are in Him. .

                  1 Corinthians 1:30 KJVBut of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

                  You have missed it John w. You have missed one of the greatest truths in the New Testament. If Jesus didn't live for us and fulfill the law for us, who did he fulfill it for? If Christ is not our righteousness who is our righteousness? We don't have any righteousness because we are all sinners, Romans 3:23. Jesus justifies us before God by doing for us that which we cannot do for ourselves because we are sinners. That is what Romans 3:26 is saying.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Stuu View Post
                    How is it ethical to visit the sins of the fathers on the sons?

                    How can vicarious punishment be ethical?

                    Stuart
                    "He who knew no sin became sin for us" 2 Corinthians 5:21. It took a perfect sacrifice to atone for the sins of the world. We don't have it to offer.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by john w View Post
                      Again-this "The holy righteous life of Jesus has been lived for us. It is the life that was lived for our justification...He fulfilled all righteousness on our behalf"=
                      This is perverting the gospel of Christ, as that is "vicarious lawkeeping," and no scripture says that.


                      The members of the boc's righteousness starts with the death of the Lord Jesus Christ, as the risen, ascended, glorified, and seated Lord Jesus Christ is the individual member's righteousness, as we are "in Christ," united with Him, as He has become our righteousness(1 Cor. 1:30 KJV), not the Lord Jesus Christ fulfilling the law in our place, i.e., "vicarious law keeping." The member of the boc has NADA to with the law-there is no connection.


                      "But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;" Romans 3:21 KJV


                      Repeating, as you learn, through repetition:


                      The members of the boc's righteousness starts with the death of the Lord Jesus Christ, as the risen, ascended, glorified, and seated Lord Jesus Christ is the individual member's righteousness, as we are "in Christ," united with Him, as He has become our righteousness(1 Cor. 1:30 KJV), not the Lord Jesus Christ fulfilling the law in our place, i.e., "vicarious law keeping." The member of the boc has NADA to with the law-there is no connection.

                      "ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ;" Rom. 7:4 KJV

                      Romans 7:1-7 KJV....

                      "Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? "

                      The law has power, jurisdiction, over a man/woman, only as long as they are alive.

                      Light bulb?

                      "For ye are dead,.." Col. 3:3 KJV

                      A dead man is not subject to any civil, or "religious"(used generically here) law. Thus, the member of the boc, who is reckoned dead, is not subject to the law, because he/she is considered dead, risen, seated with the Lord Jesus Christ. The law has lost its authority, to bring either condemnation, or righteousness,through the "vicarious obedience/law keeping" of the Lord Jesus Christ. And therefore, Paul asserts Romans 10:4 KJV.

                      Had the Lord Jesus Christ only kept the law, we would all be "Krispy Kritters." Anyone who kept the law, it would have been the righteousness of the law, not the righteousness of God(memorize that), which has NADA to do with obeying the law.

                      His Holy character was essential to His nature, as well as proving that He was qualified to become our "lamb ...without blemish"(Ex. 12:5 KJV), attested to by Peter(1 Peter 1:19 KJV). But for what purpose? For sacrifice. But His holiness was not vicarious, or "credited" to us in some way. The good news is not that He lived our obedience for us, but that "Christ...died for our sins...was buried...he rose again the third day...was raised again for our justification."(1 Cor. 15:1-4 KJV, Rom. 4:25 KJV).


                      "Anyone who believes and trusts in the righteous works of Jesus Christ, rather than in their own works to find forgiveness from God, is elect"-Nag in the past

                      No, He is our righteousness.



                      1 Corinthians 1 KJV
                      30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:




                      “Jesus Christ revealed His sinlessness in an assumed body of flesh, under the Law.He accomplished legal righteousness for us, because no sinner can keep the holy laws of God. Only the Son of God, come as the Son of Man, could achieve such righteousness. He did for us, what we never could have done for ourselves.The Law is not bad. The Law is holy and righteous.The only thing bad about the Law, is we can't keep it. But Jesus Christ did and His faithfulness, including His suffering the wrath of God and dying our sentence of death in our stead, allowed His righteousness to be imputed to us. His resurrection is our guarantee of everlasting life, for now we live in Him, and are no longer under obligation to the Law for self-righteousness.You really would benefit from some study of Christ's Office of Mediator.”-Nag in the past

                      "He accomplished legal righteousness for us, "-Naggie

                      Yes, righteousness is imputed to us, but no on ....


                      "He accomplished legal righteousness for us, because no sinner can keep the holy laws of God.."-Nag in the past

                      ...as it has NADA to do with the Saviour keeping the holy laws of God on our behalf. That is "vicarious lawkeeping," and perverts the gospel of Christ. Him keeping the holy law of God qualified Him to be the "lamb without blemish," to be the propitiation(satisfactory sacrifice).

                      God requires two things for the salvation of fallen man.

                      1. A life of perfect obedience according to his Holy Law.

                      2. A perfect atonement for man's sins and the sins of the whole world.

                      Jesus in our name and on our behalf has victoriously met both of these requirements, Colossians 2:14,15.

                      You are the one that is perverting the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Robert Pate View Post
                        You have missed it John w. You have missed one of the greatest truths in the New Testament. If Jesus didn't live for us and fulfill the law for us, who did he fulfill it for?
                        You've been answered on that, over, and over, Pate. False dichotomy-he fulfilled the law, "100%," only to be qualified to be the satisfactory sacrifice-propitiation:


                        Exodus 12:5 KJV Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:


                        He was examined, testified that he qualified:


                        John 19:6 KJV When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Take ye him, and crucify him: for I find no fault in him.

                        1 Peter 1:19 KJV But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:


                        2 Corinthians 5:21 KJV For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.


                        He fulfilled the law to be the propitiation, satisfactory sacrifice-"without blemish."


                        Righteousness is apart from the law, Pate-The Lord Jesus Christ is righteous, because He is God, Pate, not because He fulfilled the law. Fulfilling the law, Pate, is not righteousness, Pate-it's just "doing what is required, " "the minimum," so to speak. Righteousness is not only doing what is required, by law, but ALWAYS DOING WHAT IS RIGHT.
                        Originally posted by Robert Pate View Post
                        Christ is not our righteousness who is our righteousness? We don't have any righteousness because we are all sinners, Romans 3:23. Jesus justifies us before God by doing for us that which we cannot do for ourselves because we are sinners. That is what Romans 3:26 is saying.

                        Slower-He is our righteousness, because we are in Him, not because this law keeping was "transferred" to us-that is not righteousness.


                        Even slower: The Lord Jesus Christ is righteous, because of who He is, God in the flesh, and did not become righteous, by keeping/fulfilling the law upon earth, as you argue-that is not righteousness.

                        Romans 5:9 KJV is referring to His obedience by going to the cross, not by Him keeping "God's Holy Law" in our place, Pate=vicarious law keeping. That is a perversion of the gospel of Christ, and is the same trash Nang espouses. You talk like her-she talks like you.

                        Romans 8 KJV
                        4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

                        Not for us, Pate.
                        Saint John W

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by john w View Post
                          You've been answered on that, over, and over, Pate. False dichotomy-he fulfilled the law, "100%," only to be qualified to be the satisfactory sacrifice-propitiation:


                          Exodus 12:5 KJV Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:


                          He was examined, testified that he qualified:


                          John 19:6 KJV When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Take ye him, and crucify him: for I find no fault in him.

                          1 Peter 1:19 KJV But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:


                          2 Corinthians 5:21 KJV For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.


                          He fulfilled the law to be the propitiation, satisfactory sacrifice-"without blemish."


                          Righteousness is apart from the law, Pate-The Lord Jesus Christ is righteous, because He is God, Pate, not because He fulfilled the law. Fulfilling the law, Pate, is not righteousness, Pate-it's just "doing what is required, " "the minimum," so to speak. Righteousness is not only doing what is required, by law, but ALWAYS DOING WHAT IS RIGHT.



                          Slower-He is our righteousness, because we are in Him, not because this law keeping was "transferred" to us-that is not righteousness.


                          Even slower: The Lord Jesus Christ is righteous, because of who He is, God in the flesh, and did not become righteous, by keeping/fulfilling the law upon earth, as you argue-that is not righteousness.

                          Romans 5:9 KJV is referring to His obedience by going to the cross, not by Him keeping "God's Holy Law" in our place, Pate=vicarious law keeping. That is a perversion of the gospel of Christ, and is the same trash Nang espouses. You talk like her-she talks like you.

                          The law is the very nature and character of God. Jesus was God's law incarnate in human flesh.

                          "But now the righteousness of God is manifested, being witnessed by THE LAW and the prophets" Romans 3:21.

                          The fulfilling of the law was done for our justification, Matthew 5:18.

                          Jesus in our name and on our behalf as God's new Adam fulfilled every Jot and tittle of God's holy law for us.

                          After he fulfilled the law for us, he abolished it for us, Ephesians 2:15. Where there is law there is judgment and condemnation. There is no judgment or condemnation for the Christian, Romans 8:1.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Robert Pate View Post
                            The law is the very nature and character of God. Jesus was God's law incarnate in human flesh.

                            "But now the righteousness of God is manifested, being witnessed by THE LAW and the prophets" Romans 3:21.

                            And? Fulfilling the law is not righteousness, Pate-you are lying.

                            He fulfilled the law to be the propitiation, satisfactory sacrifice-"without blemish."


                            Righteousness is apart from the law, Pate-The Lord Jesus Christ is righteous, because He is God, Pate, not because He fulfilled the law. Fulfilling the law, Pate, is not righteousness, Pate-it's just "doing what is required, " "the minimum," so to speak. Righteousness is not only doing what is required, by law, but ALWAYS DOING WHAT IS RIGHT.



                            Slower-He is our righteousness, because we are in Him, not because this law keeping was "transferred" to us-that is not righteousness.


                            Even slower: The Lord Jesus Christ is righteous, because of who He is, God in the flesh, and did not become righteous, by keeping/fulfilling the law upon earth, as you argue-that is not righteousness.

                            Originally posted by Robert Pate View Post
                            The fulfilling of the law was done for our justification, Matthew 5:18.

                            Matthew 5:18 says nothing about fulfilling the law for our justification, Pate-you lied.

                            He fulfilled the law to be the propitiation, satisfactory sacrifice-"without blemish."

                            He was raised for our justification-Romans 4:25 KJV

                            Originally posted by Robert Pate View Post
                            Jesus in our name and on our behalf as God's new Adam fulfilled every Jot and tittle of God's holy law for us.

                            Fulfilling the law is not righteousness, Pate-you are lying.

                            He fulfilled the law to be the propitiation, satisfactory sacrifice-"without blemish."


                            Righteousness is apart from the law, Pate-The Lord Jesus Christ is righteous, because He is God, Pate, not because He fulfilled the law. Fulfilling the law, Pate, is not righteousness, Pate-it's just "doing what is required, " "the minimum," so to speak. Righteousness is not only doing what is required, by law, but ALWAYS DOING WHAT IS RIGHT.



                            Slower-He is our righteousness, because we are in Him, not because this law keeping was "transferred" to us-that is not righteousness.


                            Even slower: The Lord Jesus Christ is righteous, because of who He is, God in the flesh, and did not become righteous, by keeping/fulfilling the law upon earth, as you argue-that is not righteousness.

                            Originally posted by Robert Pate View Post
                            After he fulfilled the law for us, he abolished it for us, Ephesians 2:15.
                            1. Pate is on record-again-asserting that rape, murder................are all OK, as there is no law, to condemn it. That is satanic.

                            2.Ephesians 2:15 KJV, Pate, is not referencing abolishing God's holy law-you lied-that is satanic.

                            The Lord Jesus Christ nailed to the cross what was contrary to him...

                            Ephesians 2:15 KJV "the law of commandments contained in ordinances;"
                            Colossians 2:14 KJV "the handwriting of ordinances"
                            Hebrews 7:16 KJV "the law of a carnal commandment"
                            Hebrews 9:10 KJV "carnal ordinances;"

                            What the Lord Jesus Christ abolished was carnal/fleshly commandments and ordinances, and hand written ordinances=that is the context..= the decrees of exclusion established by men, which were rooted in enmity between Jew & Gentile,such as “touch not, taste not, handle not”(survey Colossians 2:21 KJV), man-made social class/caste system set in place by Oral Torah, and Jewish leaders, attempting to keep a social and religious difference between Jews and Gentiles. Ordinances/decrees were laws that were man-made. Paul was referring to man-made orders, in this verse through the term “ordinance”. These “ordinances” were, yes, indeed hostile/”hate”/”enmity”, as they restrained anyone other than “Jews” worshiping God. These ordinances made a clear separation between Jew and Gentile, by elevating one above the other, to an “elite status,” to the extent where gentiles were looked down upon, scorned, and disassociated, by Jews everywhere………..


                            Originally posted by Robert Pate View Post
                            Where there is law there is judgment and condemnation.
                            Correct-for the believer; the law still exists, to show the lost what sin is, to condemn them, serve as a schoolmaster to lead them to Christ.

                            You say it no longer exists, so that it cannot shows the lost what sin is, to condemn them, serve as a schoolmaster to lead them to Christ.

                            You lied-satanic assertion.

                            Originally posted by Robert Pate View Post
                            There is no judgment or condemnation for the Christian, Romans 8:1.
                            Agreed-quite irrelevant to your satanic "argument."





                            You are a perverter of the gospel of Christ.
                            Saint John W

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                            • #15
                              We are justified by faith because we are justified by Christ. Jesus justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 by doing for the ungodly what the ungodly cannot do for themselves. The ungodly (us) cannot offer to God the Father a life of perfect obedience according to his Holy Law. Jesus in our name and on our behalf as our justifier and savior fulfills all of the demands of God's Holy Law for us, just like we did it ourselves. It was this life that justifies the ungodly (us) Because of the righteous life of Jesus that was lived on our behalf and his perfect atonement for our sins that we will be able to stand in God's Holy Court as perfect and complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10.

                              Beware of the doctrine of John w. He is a perverter of the glorious Gospel of Jesus Christ.

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