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  • Originally posted by musterion View Post
    Pate,

    Do you acknowledge the possibility that your claim "the Law has been abolished" and the Pauline truth that the believer, counted as having died with Christ, is dead to Law, are not the same thing?
    I don't believe that they are the same.

    The law was abolished when Jesus died on the cross and the veil that covered the Holy of Holies was torn into, Matthew 27:51. This meant that the Old Covenant, the law and the Jewish have been abolished.

    Our being crucified with Christ did not abolish the law. But it does mean that we are not subject to the law.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by clefty View Post
      Here are they that keep the commandments of God and the faith OF Jesus Christ.

      If you love me...keep My commandments...I and the Father are ONE...same Law...if you love me...keep...ABIDE in My Love as I abide in His...

      Follow Me...keeps you keeping the Law...Love AS I loved you...keeps you keeping the Law...

      Behold I come quickly and My reward is with Me to give to every one according to his works...which is His yoke to you know DO HIS WILL...works to glorify Him...

      You really think the Spirit you leads you outside the Law? As if lawlessness brings glory...

      Boo Hoo gravity made me fall...when it keeps you
      But you don't keep the commandments. You don't even come close. The law demands perfection. You don't have it to offer because you are a sinner, Romans 3:23. Righteousness does not come by the law. In the New Testament faith counts for righteousness, Romans 4:5. Not the law.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
        Robert,

        That you ask this informs me you did not actually read my post carefully. I realize your attention span is limited to only short snippets of weighty matters, in spite of your usual lengthy opening blog posts in new threads. Odd that you expect others to read your wordy opening posts, yet when someone responds in kind, you immediately take offense and seek shelter from having to respond substantively behind their "longwindedness". Rather, try to read carefully when someone responds to your opinions in your "articles".

        The answer....

        The moral law contained in the two tables of the Law, summarized by Our Lord as the first and second great commandments, is not abrogated (repealed). I clearly stated so in my post. We are subject to the moral law in the sense that we have a duty to obey the moral law. Christians are not "subject to the law" for salvific matters. True believers will have no problem with this, for they will want to keep the moral laws out of love and duty to Our Lord, repenting when they fail to measure up to them, too.

        As to being "under the law", Christians are not, if by the phrase, you assume the law bears some salvific content for the believer. Such an erroneous assumption would lead one to say:
        By "under the law" or "subject to the law" it is meant that by the Christians' keeping of the moral laws, they will keep themselves saved.

        This is nonsensical. I assume you are not making such a claim, despite how infelicitous some of the wording in your posts may be.

        Asked and answered...again.

        AMR
        And by the two tablet laws you mean ALL 10 and not just 9?

        Let’s be honest no Christian I have met has any real issue with the Law written on their hearts and minds...I mean WWJD right?...9 of them at least...but let’s face it, ask about the seventh day Sabbath and the whole deal is off...abolished...finished...replaced...and more

        Add to that the Acts 15 Jerusalem council upheld dietary regulations for those coming into the church of the wilderness...and James even concluded the Jerusalem council fully intending and expecting the crowding gentiles to keep coming to the synagogues to hear Moses taught in every city every Sabbath...or do you mean they merely expected four “things” and not the moral law to be upheld...

        Peter kept “kosher” and Paul continued to keep the festivals...Pentecost being the birthday of this “new” covenant?

        I am more inclined to think this movement known as “the Way” saw it not as keeping the Law but as it keeping them...and close to the One who SAVED them and this time not just from Egypt but SIN itself...

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Robert Pate View Post

          The law was abolished
          For whom.
          "There is one thing worse than going to Hell. That would be going to Hell and having it be a surprise."
          Terence Mc Lean

          [most will be very surprised]


          Everyone who has not believed the Gospel of grace is not saved, no matter what else they believe or do.
          By that measure, how many professing Christians are on their way to the Lake of Fire?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by beloved57 View Post
            You teach that sinners Christ died for are still lost and condemned, making His Vicarious Life and Death obsolete and unable to Save!
            If we have a huge inheritance in the bank but never choose to access it, it is not the fault of the bank or of the one who bequeathed the inheritance to us. So it is with those who choose not to believe. The inheritance itself is neither withdrawn nor invalidated, just neglected by the potential inheritor.

            Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk

            Comment


            • [QU OTE=Myrrhcask;5180585]If we have a huge inheritance in the bank but never choose to access it, it is not the fault of the bank or of the one who bequeathed the inheritance to us. So it is with those who choose not to believe. The inheritance itself is neither withdrawn nor invalidated, just neglected by the potential inheritor.

              Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]

              So u just like pate. You invalidate the saving efficacy of thw death of Christ! You too teach that sinners He died for are lost and condemned.
              "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
              preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
              called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
              a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

              Charles Spurgeon !

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Robert Pate View Post
                But you don't keep the commandments. You don't even come close. The law demands perfection. You don't have it to offer because you are a sinner, Romans 3:23. Righteousness does not come by the law. In the New Testament faith counts for righteousness, Romans 4:5. Not the law.
                You don't have Faith in Christ when you believe sinners He died for perish in their sins.
                "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
                preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
                called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
                a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

                Charles Spurgeon !

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Stuu View Post
                  I'm sure you will be thinking I should be grateful for your references. I couldn't see any ethical arguments though.


                  So christianity makes necessary the immorality that is vicarious punishment?

                  Stuart
                  How does one judge what is moral apart from an appeal to God's revealed word? Thus, the onus is not on God to justify his actions, but on us to lay aside our preconceptions and sincerely desire the truth of what God, the only source of goodness and light, is truly saying.

                  Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by beloved57 View Post
                    So u just like pate. You invalidate the saving efficacy of thw death of Christ! You too teach that sinners He died for are lost and condemned.
                    For the 100th time, God still requires FAITH. "Without faith it is impossible to please God" is a truth from front to back in the Bible.

                    Christ died for all but all will not believe, therefore all will not be saved. Those who believe, will be saved. Those who don't, won't. It's that simple.
                    "There is one thing worse than going to Hell. That would be going to Hell and having it be a surprise."
                    Terence Mc Lean

                    [most will be very surprised]


                    Everyone who has not believed the Gospel of grace is not saved, no matter what else they believe or do.
                    By that measure, how many professing Christians are on their way to the Lake of Fire?

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Robert Pate View Post
                      Just as I suspected. You are under the law. Religious people like yourself cannot accept the fact that the law has been abolished. All of it. We do not keep ourselves saved. How are you going to keep yourself saved? Of course, by the works of the law, what else?
                      Once more you reveal how little attention you pay to responses given, Robert.

                      I went out of my way to distinguish any notion that the moral law is a function of one's salvation. It is not salvific. I said that often. Soteriologically speaking, what saves anyone is the object of their faith, Our Lord, by His active and passive obedience, both terms of which have also been described in my response.

                      "All of it." Matthew 22:36-40, notwithstanding, of course.

                      You are just not making sense. You populate your posts with things not carefully considered. Then you bemoan that others have picked on you for your own words. Post less. Study more.

                      AMR
                      Embedded links in my posts or in my sig below are included for a reason. Tolle Lege.



                      Do you confess?
                      Founder, Reformed Theology Institute
                      AMR's Randomata Blog
                      Learn Reformed Doctrine
                      I fear explanations explanatory of things explained.
                      Christian, catholic, Calvinist, confessional, Presbyterian (PCA).
                      Lex orandi, lex credenda: everyone is a Calvinist on their knees.
                      The best TOL Social Group: here.
                      If your username appears in blue and you have over 500 posts:
                      Why?


                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by clefty View Post
                        And by the two tablet laws you mean ALL 10 and not just 9?

                        ...but let’s face it, ask about the seventh day Sabbath and the whole deal is off...abolished...finished...replaced...and more
                        I have no time or inclination to deal with this sort of nonsense about the Sabbath.

                        From the WCF:

                        8. This Sabbath is then kept holy unto the Lord, when men, after a due preparing of their hearts, and ordering of their common affairs before-hand, do not only observe an holy rest all the day from their own works, words, and thoughts about their worldly employments and recreations, (Exod. 20:8,Exod. 16;23, 25-26, 29-30, Exod. 31:15-17, Isa. 58:13, Neh. 13:15-19, 21-22) but also are taken up, the whole time, in the public and private exercises of His worship, and in the duties of necessity and mercy. (Isa. 63:13, Matt. 12:1-13)

                        And the WLC:
                        Spoiler

                        Q. 115. What is the fourth commandment?
                        A. The fourth commandment is, Remember the sabbath-day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work; but the seventh day is the sab- bath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy man-servant, nor thy maid-servant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath-day and hallowed it. Ex. 20:8-11.

                        Q. 116. What is required in the fourth commandment?
                        A. The fourth commandment requireth of all men the sanctifying or keeping holy to God such set times as he hath appointed in his word, expressly one whole day in seven; which was the seventh from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, and the first day of the week ever since, and so to continue to the end of the world; which is the Christian sabbath, and in the New Testament called The Lord’s Day. Deut. 5:12-14; Gen. 2:2-3; 1 Cor. 16:1-2; Acts 20:7; Matt. 5:17-18; Isa. 56:2, 4, 6-7; Rev. 1:10.

                        Q. 117. How is the sabbath or the Lord’s day to be sanctified?
                        A. The sabbath or Lord’s day is to be sanctified by an holy resting all the day, not only from such works as are at all times sinful, but even from such worldly employments and recreations as are on other days lawful; and making it our delight to spend the whole time (except so much of it as is to be taken up in works of necessity and mercy) in the public and private exercises of God’s wor- ship: and, to that end, we are to prepare our hearts, and with such foresight, diligence, and moderation, to dispose, and seasonably to despatch our worldly business, that we may be the more free and fit for the duties of that day. Ex. 20:8, 10; Ex. 16:25-28; Neh. 13:15-22; Jer. 17:21-22; Matt. 12:1-13; Isa. 58: 13; Luke 4:16; Acts 20:7; 1 Cor. 16:1-2; Ps. 92 title; Isa. 66:23; Lev. 23:3; Ex. 20: 8; Luke 23:54, 56; Ex. 16:22, 25-26, 29; Neh. 13:19.

                        Q. 118. Why is the charge of keeping the sabbath more specially directed to governors of families and other superiors?
                        A. The charge of keeping the sabbath is more specially directed to governors of families and other superiors, because they are bound not only to keep it themselves, but to see that it be observed by all those that are under their charge; and because they are prone ofttimes to hinder them by employments of their own. Ex. 20:10; Josh. 24:15; Neh. 13:15, 17; Jer. 17:20-22; Ex. 23:12.

                        Q. 119. What are the sins forbidden in the fourth commandment?
                        A. The sins forbidden in the fourth commandment are, all omissions of the duties required, all careless, negligent, and unprofitable performing of them, and being weary of them; all profaning the day by idleness, and doing that which is in itself sinful; and by all needless works, words, and thoughts, about our worldly employments and recreations. Ezek 22:26; Acts 20:7, 9; Ezek. 33:30-32; Amos 8:5; Mal. 1:13; Ezek. 23:38; Jer. 17:24, 27; Isa. 58:13.

                        Q. 120. What are the reasons annexed to the fourth commandment, the more to enforce it?
                        A. The reasons annexed to the fourth commandment, the more to enforce it, are taken from the equity of it, God allowing us six days of seven for our own affairs, and reserving but one for himself, in these words, six days shalt thou labor and do all thy work: from God’s challenging a special propriety in that day, the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: from the example of God, who in six days made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: and from that blessing which God put upon that day, not only in sanctifying it to be a day for his service, but in ordaining it to be a means of blessing to us in our sanctifying it, wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath-day and hallowed it. Ex. 20:9; Ex. 20:10; Ex. 20:11.

                        Q. 121. Why is the word remember set in the beginning of the fourth commandment?
                        A. The word remember is set in the beginning of the fourth commandment, partly, because of the great benefit of remembering it, we being thereby helped in our preparation to keep it; and, in keeping it, better to keep all the rest of the commandments, and to continue a thankful remembrance of the two great benefits of creation and redemption, which contain a short abridgement of religion; and partly, because we are very ready to forget it, for that there is less light of nature for it, and yet it restraineth our natural liberty in things at other times lawful; that it cometh but once in seven days, and many worldly businesses come between, and too often take off our minds from thinking of it, either to prepare for it, or to sanctify it; and that Satan with his instruments much labor to blot out the glory, and even the memory of it, to bring in all irreligion and impiety. Ex. 20:8; Ex. 16:23; Luke 23:54, 56; Mark 15:42; Neh. 13:19; Ps. 92 title, 13-14; Ezek. 20:12, 19-20; Gen. 2:2-3; Ps. 118:22, 24; Acts 4:10-11; Rev. 1:10; Ezek. 22:26; Neh. 9:14; Ex. 34:21; Deut. 5:14-15; Amos 8:5; Lam. 1:7; Jer. 17:21-23; Neh. 13:15-23.


                        You have your answer. Go in peace.

                        AMR
                        Embedded links in my posts or in my sig below are included for a reason. Tolle Lege.



                        Do you confess?
                        Founder, Reformed Theology Institute
                        AMR's Randomata Blog
                        Learn Reformed Doctrine
                        I fear explanations explanatory of things explained.
                        Christian, catholic, Calvinist, confessional, Presbyterian (PCA).
                        Lex orandi, lex credenda: everyone is a Calvinist on their knees.
                        The best TOL Social Group: here.
                        If your username appears in blue and you have over 500 posts:
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                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
                          Once more you reveal how little attention you pay to responses given, Robert.

                          I went out of my way to distinguish any notion that the moral law is a function of one's salvation. It is not salvific. I said that often. Soteriologically speaking, what saves anyone is the object of their faith, Our Lord, by His active and passive obedience, both terms of which have also been described in my response.

                          "All of it." Matthew 22:36-40, notwithstanding, of course.

                          You are just not making sense. You populate your posts with things not carefully considered. Then you bemoan that others have picked on you for your own words. Post less. Study more.

                          AMR

                          I can tell by the way that you write that you are very intelligent, maybe a scholar. I am use to reading the works of scholars. Sometimes they are a little difficult to understand. I suppose that many of the Pharisees were also highly educated scholars. They knew the law backwards and forwards. Unfortunately they didn't know who Jesus was because they were blinded by their religion. Kind of like you. Faith does not save anyone. What saves is the doing and the dying of Jesus. The whole world has been reconciled unto God by Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:19. Our faith didn't have a thing to do with it.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
                            I have no time
                            see that is just it...Yah designed for us to have a whole day of rest...and study pray fellowship and glorify Him with true worship...false worship not being acceptable but an abomination yes? So what better thing to do than to study what is expected of His people who claim to Love Him His way and follow Him His way to abide in His Love...as He loved us...

                            A day spent understanding Him His character and all He did for us to compel joy and desire to HEED His call to put on His yoke and represent Him sounds exactly what you should have time for.

                            or inclination
                            oh that comes with time and practice or necessity...most people dont want to practice good health or desire exercising and restricting tasty treats either but as we get older...I mean you aren’t suicidal yes?

                            to deal with this sort of nonsense about the Sabbath.
                            oh my...nonsense? You regard His Word His work and your salvation as nonsense? Well that does explain the first two...

                            oh well there is a type of people the message of the cross its Passover Sabbath is foolishness...

                            Q. 116. What is required in the fourth commandment?
                            A. The fourth commandment requireth of all men the sanctifying or keeping holy to God such set times as he hath appointed in his word, expressly one whole day in seven; which was the seventh from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ,and the first day of the week ever since, and so to continue to the end of the world; which is the Christian sabbath, and in the New Testament called The Lord’s Day. Deut. 5:12-14; Gen. 2:2-3; 1 Cor. 16:1-2; Acts 20:7; Matt. 5:17-18; Isa. 56:2, 4, 6-7; Rev. 1:10.
                            1 Cor. 16:1-2; this text deals with collections...which are to be done on the first day of each week...probably pay day and these collections are to be kept seperate privately laid aside to each his own storing up as he may prosper himself...obviously not first day corporate offerings collected in public worship services...but aside at homes so that whenever Paul came they could run home and bring all of it to him then...

                            Acts 20:7 now on the first day of the when the disciples came together to break bread...the author of Acts knew the greek term for Lord’s Supper...it was not employed...Paul preached to them on the first day of the week but at the time when they came together to pray...he preached til midnight...it was evening on that first of Sabbatons...much here to unpack if you have time or so inclined...understandable if neither...really...

                            The sad irony is that your dump and run is contrary to that of what learned men and scholars more versed in scripture and history held in council:


                            “Now in dealing with the Council of Trent (held in northeast Italy, and lasting from 1545 to 1563 A.D.), we must quote another well-versed writer, G.E. Fifield, DD, in his incomparable tract, Origin of Sunday as a Christian (?) Festival (Published by American Sabbath Tract Society, Seventh Day Baptist Church). To quote Dr. Fifield: "At the council of Trent, called by the Roman Church to deal with questions arising out of the Reformation, it was at first an apparent possibility that the Council would declare in favor of the reformed doctrines instead of against them, so profound was the impression made thus far by the teachings of Luther and other reformers."

                            The Pope's legate actually wrote to him that there was ''strong tendency to set aside tradition altogether, and to make the Scriptures the sole standard of appeal.'' The question was debated day by day, until it was fairly brought to a standstill. Finally the Archbishop of Reggio turned the Council against the Reformation by the following argument: ''The Protestants claim to stand upon the written word only; they profess to hold the Scriptures alone as the standard of faith. They justify their revolt by the plea that the Church has apostatized from the written word and follows tradition. Now the Protestant's claim that they stand upon the written word alone is not true."

                            Why Lutheran Claim Was Not True

                            "Their profession of holding the Scriptures alone as the standard of faith is false. Proof: The written word explicitly enjoins the observance of the seventh day as the Sabbath. They do not observe the seventh day, but reject it. If they truly hold the Scriptures alone as the standard, they would be observing the seventh day as it is enjoined in the Scripture throughout. Yet they not only reject the observance of the Sabbath as enjoined in the written word, but they have adopted, and do practice, the observance of Sunday, for which they have only the tradition of the (Catholic) Church."

                            "Consequently, the claim of Scripture alone as the standard fails and the doctrine of 'Scripture and tradition as essential' is fully established, the Protestants themselves being Judges." See The Proceedings of the Council of Trent, Augsburg confession and Encyclopedia Britannica, article "Trent, Council of." At this argument, the party that had stood for the Scripture alone surrendered, and the Council at once unanimously condemned Protestantism, and the whole Reformation. It at once proceeded to enact stringent decrees to arrest its progress.”

                            http://www.yashanet.com/library/reformf.htm

                            I can link stuff too...prolly not for you as I am sure you are long gone...its for others here who might have the time and inclination...

                            Oh well, your quick attempt here to find worship on Sunday in scripture has already been answered by others more qualified...


                            You have your answer.
                            lol...I’ve had my answer but this isnt all about you...

                            Go in peace.
                            Peace for me is fighting the good fight...glorifying Him His way not man’s tradition...

                            AMR
                            did...but perhaps I will stick to scripture...

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by musterion View Post
                              For whom.
                              Only for Christians. The unsaved and the religious will be judged by it.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Robert Pate View Post
                                The whole world has been reconciled unto God by Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:19. Our faith didn't have a thing to do with it.
                                Faith is the condition for claiming what Our Lord accomplished, Robert. He died for the believing ones, not for each and every person, else all would be saved. What He did is not effectual for non-believers. Certainly what Our Lord accomplished has the potential to save all, but it is clearly not the intention of God, for all would be saved if that were the volitional will of God. Your faith is the instrument of your salvation. Salvation through (instrumentally) faith. Eph. 2:8-9.

                                AMR
                                Last edited by Ask Mr. Religion; January 28th, 2018, 11:09 PM. Reason: grammar and formatting
                                Embedded links in my posts or in my sig below are included for a reason. Tolle Lege.



                                Do you confess?
                                Founder, Reformed Theology Institute
                                AMR's Randomata Blog
                                Learn Reformed Doctrine
                                I fear explanations explanatory of things explained.
                                Christian, catholic, Calvinist, confessional, Presbyterian (PCA).
                                Lex orandi, lex credenda: everyone is a Calvinist on their knees.
                                The best TOL Social Group: here.
                                If your username appears in blue and you have over 500 posts:
                                Why?


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