"And You Are Complete in Jesus Christ" Colossians 2:10.

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Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Ask Mr. Religion said:
Robert,

Actually, Calvin, as did all the Reformers and those that preceded him, did believe salvation is by faith alone. He did not, nor should we, believe that this faith alone means faith that is alone, unaccompanied by God's power, that fallen man can muster up faith all by himself, nor that man must perform on a treadmill to maintain one's salvation.

Yes, it was Calvin who wrought out this system of theological thought with such logical clearness and emphasis that it has ever since borne his name. He did not, of course, originate the system but only set forth what appeared to him to shine forth so clearly from the pages of Scripture. The Reformation was all about returning to these truths of Scripture. Unless one denies the state of affairs for fallen men, he or she will find that Scripture attests to this profusely.

Historically speaking, Calvin gets no credit for "inventing" or "coming up with" the doctrine of predestination. God's choosing of nations and people is clearly taught in Scripture (e.g., Deuteronomy 7:6-7, Isaiah 55:11, John 6:44, John 15:16, Acts 13:48, Romans 8:28-30, Romans 9:11-13, 1 Corinthians 1:26-29, Ephesians 1:3-5, Ephesians 2:4-7, 2 Timothy 1:9) and was the view of those well over a thousand years before Calvin's time. It may occasion some surprise to discover that the doctrine of predestination was not made a matter of special study until near the end of the fourth century. The earlier church fathers placed chief emphasis on good works such as faith, repentance, almsgiving, prayers, submission to baptism, etc., as the basis of salvation.

Prior to the fourth century, the time had been largely taken up in correcting heresies within the Church and in refuting attacks from the pagan world in which it found itself. Consequently little emphasis had been placed on the systematic development of doctrine. And that the doctrine of predestination received such little attention in this age was no doubt partly due to the tendency to confuse it with the Pagan doctrine of fatalism which was so prevalent throughout the Roman Empire. But in the fourth century a more settled time had been reached, a new era in theology had dawned, and the theologians came to place more emphasis on the doctrinal content of their message.

Unfortunately, shortly after the fourth century, there was retrogression rather than progression. Clouds of ignorance blinded the people. The Church became more and more ritualistic and salvation was thought to be through the external Church. Hence the treadmill. This system of merit grew until it reached its climax in the "indulgences." The papacy came to exert great power, political as well as ecclesiastical,and throughout Catholic Europe the state of morals came to be almost intolerable. Even the priesthood became desperately corrupt and in the whole catalog of human sins and vices none are more corrupt or more offensive than those which soiled the lives of such popes as John XXIII and Alexander VI.

For all these reasons and more, until the time of the Reformation very little emphasis wasplaced on the doctrine of predestination.

Robert, you would know these things if you undertake a serious study of the history of the church. Unfortunately, Calvin is a favorite whipping boy for you, so you see him everywhere you look through those tinted mental glasses you wear. :AMR:

AMR
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You think that truth is in many words. The more words you have the more truth that you have.

The Gospel is a very simple message, I suppose that is why you hate it. Religious people like yourself like long complicated discourses and prayers, it makes them appear to know more or to be more holier than others.

Your religion does not honor God nor does it glorify his Son Jesus Christ, which means that you are doomed.
 
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The lament of the intellectually lazy - "Too many words!"

The lament of the intellectually lazy - "Too many words!"

Robert Pate said:
You think that truth is in many words. The more words you have the more truth that you have.

The Gospel is a very simple message, I suppose that is why you hate it. Religious people like yourself like long complicated discourses and prayers, it makes them appear to know more or to be more holier than others.

Your religion does not honor God nor does it glorify his Son Jesus Christ, which means that you are doomed.
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Robert,

You just do not know the full import you are talking about. Given your acedia, it is evident in nearly every post you make. The pride taken in you intellectual laziness emblazons your many redundant posts.

Despite the claim of others, there is but one Gospel. In a fast food society that likes just snippets it is wrong to assume that but the concise summary of the Gospel in 1 Cor 15 is the only time that Paul calls something "the Gospel". For example, the entire letter of Romans is repeatedly referred to by Paul as "my Gospel". That entire book is a truth contained in many words, Robert.

Sure, there may be a shorthand way of saying certain things to people who already understand something, but there are no shortcuts by just saying a minimal number of words to a listener and assuming that the person listening has understood the Gospel.

Robert, sentences in Scripture are not incantations. We are called to press these things into the understanding of our hearers and explain and argue for certain ideas (1 Cor. 10:5). Yes, we may start out with something very basic, as in 1 Cor 15, but we will have to give further explanations or corrections of some matters if a person is inferring something improperly.

For example, Paul's Romans Road to Salvation, Romans 3:23; 6:23; 8:1; 10:9; 10:13, is steeped in unstated presuppositions that will require explanation to the typical non-believer.

In another related example, seriously consider what must be presupposed in the concise summary statement of the Gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. For example, "sins" presupposes a moral inability; "our" presupposes a marking out of persons, "died for" presupposes particularization of persons; "rose again" presupposes a calling that is effective and provides utmost perseverance.

If a person goes off and develops a poor understanding which undermines the basic theological framework above, he or she denies the very underlying basis of the Gospel—those presuppositions left unexplained by using Gospel shorthanded expressions—and thereby weakens one's own faith.

At the end of the day, people need to stop and consider how one could accurately present any Gospel that denies...

(1) man's wholesale rebellion in sin from birth,
(2) the right of God the Father to punish men for their sin,
(3) God the Father's sending of His son, Our Lord Jesus Christ, incarnated as fully God and fully man, out of His mere grace and not for anything men deserved,
(4) Our Lord's sacrifice on a cross for sin, satisfying the wrath of God the Father for only the ones so given to Our Lord (John 6:37; John 6:39; John 10:29; John 17:11-12; John 17:9;John 17:22; John 18:9),
(5) Our Lord saving to the uttermost all who are efficaciously drawn near by God the Holy Spirit,
(6) God the Father loving His chosen before they loved Him,
(7) the resurrection of Our Lord, or
(8) even the power of the Gospel to be the source of life.

The Gospel is more than just a sentence or two lifted from the full counsel of Scripture. Paul, superintended by God the Holy Spirit, required over 9,400 words in Romans, what he called repeatedly "my gospel". As did Paul, the message of the Gospel requires us to take every word captive for the glory of God. Apparently, you would accuse Paul of prolixity, knowing so much more than God and His ordained servant, Paul. Sigh.

AMR
 
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Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Ask Mr. Religion said:
Robert,

You just do not know the full import you are talking about. Given your acedia, it is evident in nearly every post you make. The pride taken in you intellectual laziness emblazons your many redundant posts.

Despite the claim of others, there is but one Gospel. In a fast food society that likes just snippets it is wrong to assume that but the concise summary of the Gospel in 1 Cor 15 is the only time that Paul calls something "the Gospel". For example, the entire letter of Romans is repeatedly referred to by Paul as "my Gospel". That entire book is a truth contained in many words, Robert.

Sure, there may be a shorthand way of saying certain things to people who already understand something, but there are no shortcuts by just saying a minimal number of words to a listener and assuming that the person listening has understood the Gospel.

Robert, sentences in Scripture are not incantations. We are called to press these things into the understanding of our hearers and explain and argue for certain ideas (1 Cor. 10:5). Yes, we may start out with something very basic, as in 1 Cor 15, but we will have to give further explanations or corrections of some matters if a person is inferring something improperly.

For example, Paul's Romans Road to Salvation, Romans 3:23; 6:23; 8:1; 10:9; 10:13, is steeped in unstated presuppositions that will require explanation to the typical non-believer.

In another related example, seriously consider what must be presupposed in the concise summary statement of the Gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. For example, "sins" presupposes a moral inability; "our" presupposes a marking out of persons, "died for" presupposes particularization of persons; "rose again" presupposes a calling that is effective and provides utmost perseverance.

If a person goes off and develops a poor understanding which undermines the basic theological framework above, he or she denies the very underlying basis of the Gospel—those presuppositions left unexplained by using Gospel shorthanded expressions—and thereby weakens one's own faith.

At the end of the day, people need to stop and consider how one could accurately present any Gospel that denies...

(1) man's wholesale rebellion in sin from birth,
(2) the right of God the Father to punish men for their sin,
(3) God the Father's sending of His son, Our Lord Jesus Christ, incarnated as fully God and fully man, out of His mere grace and not for anything men deserved,
(4) Our Lord's sacrifice on a cross for sin, satisfying the wrath of God the Father for only the ones so given to Our Lord (John 6:37; John 6:39; John 10:29; John 17:11-12; John 17:9;John 17:22; John 18:9),
(5) Our Lord saving to the uttermost all who are efficaciously drawn near by God the Holy Spirit,
(6) God the Father loving His chosen before they loved Him,
(7) the resurrection of Our Lord, or
(8) even the power of the Gospel to be the source of life.

The Gospel is more than just a sentence or two lifted from the full counsel of Scripture. Paul, superintended by God the Holy Spirit, required over 9,400 words in Romans, what he called repeatedly "my gospel". As did Paul, the message of the Gospel requires us to take every word captive for the glory of God. Apparently, you would accuse Paul of prolixity, knowing so much more than God and His ordained servant, Paul. Sigh.

AMR
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The Gospel is that God justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles us and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19. Which you don't believe.
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Robert Pate said:
Poor blind fool does not believe that Jesus atoned for the sins of the whole world.

"And he is a propitiation for our sin: and not ours only, BUT ALSO FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD" 1 John 2:2

Poor blind fool is now without an excuse.
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You dont even believe Christs death saves !
 
musterion

musterion

Well-known member
beloved57 said:
You teach that sinners Christ reconciled to God are still lost and condemned !
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Why did you just lie?

Paul begged the lost, on God's behalf, to BE reconciled to Him. Paul did not say they already had been reconciled.

Do you look forward to being cast into the Lake of Fire? Because that's where all liars will end up, liar.
 
musterion

musterion

Well-known member
Robert Pate said:
Of all of the phony religions Calvinism is the easiest one to refute.
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Only once you learn to see past the deliberately impenetrable smokescreen of vain philosophy, yes. But until you do, it can seem unassailable. You KNOW there's something very off about it but it's so massive and sprawling, you don't know where to begin to get a handle on it.

That's why going back to the nature of God, as revealed in the Bible and contrasted with the Calvinistic depiction of God, cuts through all the smog and is the best and most effective shortcut.

God, in the BIble, cannot lie.

God, according to Calvinism, lies about many things, as does Christ, too.

Both cannot be true, therefore one must be false.

Bingo bango, done.
 
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Robert Pate

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Banned
musterion said:
Only once you learn to see past the deliberately impenetrable smokescreen of vain philosophy, yes. But until you do, it can seem unassailable. You KNOW there's something very off about it but it's so massive and sprawling, you don't know where to begin to get a handle on it.

That's why going back to the nature of God, as revealed in the Bible and contrasted with the Calvinistic depiction of God, cuts through all the smog and is the best and most effective shortcut.

God, in the BIble, cannot lie.

God, according to Calvinism, lies about many things, as does Christ, too.

Both cannot be true, therefore one must be false.

Bingo bango, done.
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Right, Calvinism is also self defeating. It requires you to believe that God is an unjust, unmerciful tyrant that condemns people to hell before they are born. It is not possible to believe that about God and be saved.

As if that was not bad enough, it also requires you to believe that Jesus was a failure. He did not atone for the sins of the whole world, therefore he is not Lord.
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Robert Pate said:
Poor blind fool cannot read or understand the scripture. If you are complete in Jesus you are eternally saved, Colossians 2:10.
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With your careless false teaching, you teach that sinners Christ died for and made complete, perfect, that they are still unjust, condemned and lost !
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Robert Pate said:
Right, Calvinism is also self defeating. It requires you to believe that God is an unjust, unmerciful tyrant that condemns people to hell before they are born. It is not possible to believe that about God and be saved.

As if that was not bad enough, it also requires you to believe that Jesus was a failure. He did not atone for the sins of the whole world, therefore he is not Lord.
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pateism makes God unjust, in that it teaches that sinners Christ died for, satisfied Gods Law and Justice for, are still lost, and condemned and under Gods wrath anyway !
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Robert Pate said:
Poor blind fool believes in a God that does not exist.
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Thats an insult to God in Christ to teach as you do that sinners Christ died for are still condemned by God, even after Christ has satisfied Gods law and Justice for the. That makes God serve, unmerciful and unjust !
 
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Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
beloved57 said:
Thats an insult to God in Christ to teach as you do that sinners Christ died for are still condemned by God, even after Christ has satisfied Gods law and Justice for the. That makes God serve, unmerciful and unjust !
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You have faith in a God that is not in the Bible.
 
musterion

musterion

Well-known member
B57 believes salvation does not require faith. God says it does. Christ said it does. The apostles taught it does.

B57 has a non-Christian religion.
 
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Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
musterion said:
B57 believes salvation does not require faith. God says it does. Christ said it does. The apostles taught it does.

B57 has a non-Christian religion.
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This is why he has trouble with it. The words "faith" and "believe" appear in the Bible hundreds of times.
 
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