Biological Taxonomy - Kinds vs. Species (Linnaean taxonomy)

Stripe

Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle
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Where did the idea of species come from?
Evolutionists love the [genetic] fallacy. I think they are fooled by the name. :chuckle:

Why then do modern creationists run away from the species term and replace it with ... kinds?
Because "species" is a vague and malleable term that is next to useless in a scientific discussion, while "kind" had a rock-solid, clear definition. It clearly delineates opposing views without equivocation.

There's absolutely no Biblical basis for such an idea.
Only if you ignore the ideas the Bible plainly presents.

Why fight against a classification system that was created by a creationist and has been the basic framework for the classification of life for nearly 300 years?
Why not? :idunno:
 
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Alate_One

Well-known member
False Stuu..... What I said is that evolutionism and creationism are beliefs about the past and are NOT science.

Oh are you another one of those, "Were you there?" types?

Tell that to all the criminal investigators who can discover the truth about a crime long after it happened.

We can discover what happened in the distant past because things work the same way today as in the past. That's the only "belief" you need.

We have no reason to think the laws of physics were different a few thousand years ago or a million years ago.

And using our senses and instruments we can figure out that the earth is old and evolution happened by looking at the evidence left behind.
 

Alate_One

Well-known member
Evolutionists love the generic fallacy. I think they are fooled by the name. :chuckle:
Actually that's more of a creationist thing (I'm assuming you mean genetic fallacy).

"Evolution is bad because it's promoted by atheists." Ring a bell?

Because "species" is a vague and malleable term that is next to useless in a scientific discussion, while "kind" had a rock-solid, clear definition. It clearly delineates opposing views without equivocation.
You can dispense with your naked assertions. Show us evidence and the utility of your ideas, as Linneaeus did. There was a creationist actually interested in science.

Only if you ignore the ideas the Bible plainly presents.
Really, the Bible presents the idea that sheep and goats are really the same kind because they changed from a common ancestor? The Bible presents the idea that lions and leopards shared a common ancestor at the flood and they separated in the time since the flood? Evidence or stop talking.

Why not? :idunno:
Ever heard the phrase about not reinventing the wheel?

You've offered no explanation for the real reason it was done: to get around the too many animals to fit on the ark problem.

Kind as defined by YECs has nothing to do with the Bible other than sharing a similar name (talk about confused by a name).
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
[The Seattle Creation Conference starts in 2 days. http://conference.nwcreation.net/ There is webcam access]


Dr. P. Nelson, Ph.D., presented at a creation conference sponsored by Discovery Institute at Westminster, PA. It was replayed yesterday on NRB TV (Direct 378).

The topic was the undercutting of biological evolution by the destructivity of mutations. The sample species was the primitive C. eleganta, a fruit fly. The two reasons were 1, that mutations for changes were systematically stopped by killing the individual. 2, unlike humans, C. Eleganta reproduces only when very mature, almost at the end of life. Ie, there is not even a chance for mutations to start across what he termed 'the bridge of life' where the moment of reproduction is at the far end, not the near end.

The presentation closes with peer quotes by T. MacDonald 1983 saying biological evolution fails, and a more recent one by ____ that biological evolution is unsolveable. Both peers were tenured professors in their fields.
 

6days

New member
Alate_One said:
6days said:
evolutionism and creationism are beliefs about the past and are NOT science.

Tell that to all the criminal investigators who can discover the truth about a crime long after it happened.
Forensic scientists would agree with me. They perform science using testable, observable, and repeatable experiments then make conclusions about the past.*


Alate_One said:
And using our senses and instruments we can figure out that the earth is old and evolution happened by looking at the evidence left behind.
Using good forensic techniques, we do testable and repeatable experiments on all the available evidence including the eye witness testimony from the only One who was there at the beginning. We then examine the 'smoking gun'... God's Word.

We conclude God created in six days....that He created male at female from the beginning of creation.....that He created man from the dust....that He created woman from man's rib....that death and suffering energy our world because of man's sin.....etc
 

Stripe

Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle
LIFETIME MEMBER
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Actually that's more of a creationist thing.
Well, given that it was you — an evolutionist — trying to sneak a genetic fallacy past people, we'll stick with my assessment. :up:

"Evolution is bad because it's promoted by atheists." Ring a bell?
No.

Feel free to show where somebody has explicitly used this argument, as you did with another point in OP.

Show us evidence and the utility of your ideas.
No need, in this situation. "Kind" has a rock-solid definition, while "species" is vague and malleable. This is uncontested.

The Bible presents the idea that sheep and goats are really the same kind because they changed from a common ancestor?The Bible presents the idea that lions and leopards shared a common ancestor at the flood and they separated in the time since the flood?
No. The Bible makes it clear that kinds are separate groups of animals and outlines broad classifications of examples of the term.

You make demands of the text that aren't there and invent examples of kinds that do not feature.

It's part of your desperation to leave only your precious evolutionism as a contender. That you fight so hard to not allow even consideration of alternative ideas shows that you're no scientist.

Ever heard the phrase about not reinventing the wheel?
So I should stop doing science because you've got a phrase? :AMR:

You've offered no explanation for the real reason it was done: to get around the too many animals to fit on the ark problem.
Given that the "problem" was raised by people determined to reject the Biblical account who made no effort to understand scripture, I think it is up to you to actually raise a reasonable objection, rather than trying to sneak in another genetic fallacy.

It does not matter where the idea arose from or why. What matters is that it is internally consistent and testable. And given that it is a definition you are resisting, there is no evidence to present. Definitions do not come with evidence, they just need to be useful.

Kind as defined by YECs has nothing to do with the Bible other than sharing a similar name.
Nope. My definition is clearly consistent and supported by scripture. And trying to sneak in a third genetic fallacy shows that it is indeed the realm of the Darwinist.

Heck, I can't even spell it rite. :chuckle:
 
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Jose Fly

New member
Oh are you another one of those, "Were you there?" types?

Tell that to all the criminal investigators who can discover the truth about a crime long after it happened.

We can discover what happened in the distant past because things work the same way today as in the past. That's the only "belief" you need.

We have no reason to think the laws of physics were different a few thousand years ago or a million years ago.

And using our senses and instruments we can figure out that the earth is old and evolution happened by looking at the evidence left behind.

Oh, I wouldn't get too worked up over this. So 6days believes evolutionary biology isn't science....so what?

You and I both work in the biological sciences, so we know the status of evolutionary biology in the scientific community. Do the religious beliefs of some anonymous person at a fundamentalist Christian internet board really matter to that? :nono:
 

Jamie Gigliotti

New member
Mincing words.... Kinds, species...can they breed? If yes, same type of creation. Regardless of hair color, skin color, size. Which do change through mutation, but does not change the type of creature.
 

Jose Fly

New member
Mincing words.... Kinds, species...can they breed? If yes, same type of creation. Regardless of hair color, skin color, size. Which do change through mutation, but does not change the type of creature.

So to you, if two populations are physically unable to breed, they are different "kinds"?
 

George Affleck

TOL Subscriber
Does this mean your argument is that the original breeding pair of "the cat kind" had all the genetic information for every trait in every population of every species of cat that came after?

Correct.

If so, I assume those sequences went unexpressed until needed, correct?

Until utilized/activated - "needed" sounds like the genetics had a mind of their own.

That makes me wonder how those unexpressed sequences managed to stay functional and intact, despite the absence of selective pressures against the accumulation of deleterious mutations.

Our model is not subject to millions of years and billions of generations of mutational load.

And not only would those sequences have to have remained completely intact and functional while being simultaneously unexpressed after the flood, they would also have to have remained so before the flood.

Prior to the flood the rules were apparently different. Life spans were significantly longer which tells us that, although sin was beginning to take its toll, it had not yet produced the kind of load we see today.

Not only that, but Noah would have somehow had to have been able to figure out which of the cat populations around at his time had all the necessary unexpressed sequences, and which ones didn't.

No, God selected and sent the animals to the ark. Noah did not need to do anything except oversee and make sure there was enough food. Gen 6:20KJV

Plus, all this took place during a time when you also argue that genomes were "degrading" and "genetic information" was declining.
When you buy a car, it has already begun to degrade. Because it is close to its "creation", you don't notice it. It will keep its "new car smell" for quite awhile. Nevertheless, it is still degrading. Eventually it will rust into the ground. Animals closer to the creation event still had their "new car smell". :car:

_____________

Now a question for you.

If you are not just a lazy troll, why do you continue to ask questions of us that you could get more complete answers for elsewhere?

I submit you aren't really looking for answers or care even if you do get them.
 

Alate_One

Well-known member
Oh, I wouldn't get too worked up over this. So 6days believes evolutionary biology isn't science....so what?

You and I both work in the biological sciences, so we know the status of evolutionary biology in the scientific community. Do the religious beliefs of some anonymous person at a fundamentalist Christian internet board really matter to that? :nono:

Oh I wasn't worked up. Just doing a bit of teaching. I'm quite sure it'll bounce off, but it's better to put it out there than not. ;)
 

Alate_One

Well-known member
No need, in this situation. "Kind" has a rock-solid definition, while "species" is vague and malleable. This is uncontested.
It's uncontested in your mind alone.

No. The Bible makes it clear that kinds are separate groups of animals and outlines broad classifications of examples of the term.
Species are separate groups of animals and everything named in the bible is now considered a species.

You make demands of the text that aren't there and invent examples of kinds that do not feature.
I didn't invent them. Ken ham specifically stated them. That the "dog family" and the "cat family" each reflect a separate kind. But maybe you should actually read this thread?

It's part of your desperation to leave only your precious evolutionism as a contender. That you fight so hard to not allow even consideration of alternative ideas shows that you're no scientist.
And here's how to tell you are no scientist. Science does not evaluate every idea, only ideas that are testable. Your "kind" definition is not testable since it is not specific enough to make predictions.

Given that the "problem" was raised by people determined to reject the Biblical account who made no effort to understand scripture, I think it is up to you to actually raise a reasonable objection, rather than trying to sneak in another genetic fallacy.
Other than the one you just stated.

It does not matter where the idea arose from or why. What matters is that it is internally consistent and testable.
There you are! Now tell us how kinds are testable. Give us a test you could use.
 

Stripe

Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
It's uncontested in your mind alone.
However, we notice you do not contest the idea. :chuckle:

"Kind" has a rock-solid, clear definition, while "species" is vague and malleable.

Sverything named in the bible is now considered a species.
Evolutionists love to demand that their regime be asserted everywhere, even where it is explicitly denied.

The "dog family" and the "cat family" each reflect a separate kind.
The Bible does not specify that there is a cat kind and a dog kind.

Science does not evaluate every idea, only ideas that are testable. Your "kind" definition is not testable since it is not specific enough to make predictions.
Equivocation is a logical fallacy. I did not present an idea; I gave a definition.

Tell us how kinds are testable.

First you must acknowledge that the definition is valid. There is no point defending an idea when you will not accept simple definitions of the words being used.

While you're at it, you can retract the genetic fallacies you raised. The source of an idea has no impact on the idea's validity.
 

Jonahdog

BANNED
Banned
[The Seattle Creation Conference starts in 2 days. http://conference.nwcreation.net/ There is webcam access]


Dr. P. Nelson, Ph.D., presented at a creation conference sponsored by Discovery Institute at Westminster, PA. It was replayed yesterday on NRB TV (Direct 378).

The topic was the undercutting of biological evolution by the destructivity of mutations. The sample species was the primitive C. eleganta, a fruit fly. The two reasons were 1, that mutations for changes were systematically stopped by killing the individual. 2, unlike humans, C. Eleganta reproduces only when very mature, almost at the end of life. Ie, there is not even a chance for mutations to start across what he termed 'the bridge of life' where the moment of reproduction is at the far end, not the near end.

The presentation closes with peer quotes by T. MacDonald 1983 saying biological evolution fails, and a more recent one by ____ that biological evolution is unsolveable. Both peers were tenured professors in their fields.

The best part of this particular post is that C. elegans is not a fruit fly.
 

Jose Fly

New member
Our model is not subject to millions of years and billions of generations of mutational load.

But I thought your "model" meant that after the fall, all genomes constantly degraded. So if the "cat kind" genome had been degrading for thousands of years prior to the flood, and continued to degrade after the flood, how did all those unexpressed genes for the diversity of traits we see in today's cats manage to escape mutation (which also according to your "model" can only destroy functionality)?


Prior to the flood the rules were apparently different.

And this is based on.......?

Life spans were significantly longer which tells us that, although sin was beginning to take its toll, it had not yet produced the kind of load we see today.

Where do you get the idea that cat lifespans were significantly longer?

No, God selected and sent the animals to the ark.

Oh, guess that takes us out of the realm of science. Thanks for being up front about that.

When you buy a car, it has already begun to degrade.

Yeah...um.....cars aren't living organisms. :duh:

If you are not just a lazy troll, why do you continue to ask questions of us that you could get more complete answers for elsewhere?

I submit you aren't really looking for answers or care even if you do get them.

Because it's funny.
 
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