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  • #46
    Originally posted by Ben Masada View Post
    Read Job 7:9; 10:21; II Sam. 12:23; Psalm 49:12; 88:11; Prov. 2:19... and many other quotes but I think these are enough to prove the point.

    The wish to live again is an illusion and I am sorry if I had to rain on your parade but the Truth although some times painful cannot be masked.
    Sure it can, you just did it.
    I AM the pie lady!!

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    • #47
      Originally posted by jamie View Post
      In the context of nature the dead do not live again. However, God created nature and he has power over nature. Have you heard the story about Jonah? He died and yet lived again.
      If a man dies, shall he live again? All the days of my hard service I will wait till my change comes. You shall call and I will answer You - You shall desire the work of Your hands. (Job 14:14-15)
      Then the LORD heard the voice of Elijah and the soul of the child came back to him and he revived. And Elijah took the child and brought him down from the upper room into the house and gave him to his mother. And Elijah said, “See, your son lives!”
      (1 Kings 17:22-23)

      So there is Jonah, Job and a young boy. God can resurrect whomever he chooses.

      True that!
      I AM the pie lady!!

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      • #48
        Originally posted by jamie View Post
        In the context of nature the dead do not live again. However, God created nature and he has power over nature. Have you heard the story about Jonah? He died and yet lived again.
        If a man dies, shall he live again? All the days of my hard service I will wait till my change comes. You shall call and I will answer You - You shall desire the work of Your hands. (Job 14:14-15)
        Then the LORD heard the voice of Elijah and the soul of the child came back to him and he revived. And Elijah took the child and brought him down from the upper room into the house and gave him to his mother. And Elijah said, “See, your son lives!” (1 Kings 17:22-23)

        So there is Jonah, Job and a young boy. God can resurrect whomever he chooses.
        Jamie, I agree with you that God can do every thing and more but one: The thing you wish He did or should have done. The Lord has power over nature but not to carry it out to satisfy your demands.

        I have never heard of a Jonah who died and lived again. Perhaps you are talking about your NT. The "I will wait till my change comes" of Job 14:14 is a reference to a change in his condition. Hence his question "If a man has died were he to live again..." This is a statement to the fact that a man who has died will never live again. You have rather confirmed my views about that text.

        As I said above, God can all even resurrect whoever He chooses but not bodily resurrection which is what you have in mind as a result of Christian preconceived notions.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by IMJerusha View Post
          Sure it can, you just did it.
          Hi Jerusha, long time don't see! Now Jerusha, if you think I am masking the truth it is probably because the whole truth has been masked before your eyes to either prevent you from finding it or to hide itself from eyes hat cannot stare at the light of the sun. Or last but not least, because you are not ready for it.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Ben Masada View Post
            I have never heard of a Jonah who died and lived again.
            I went down to the moorings of the mountains, the earth with its bars closed behind me forever, yet You have brought up my life from the pit, O LORD, my God. (Jonah 2:6)

            The pit is a reference to a grave.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by jamie View Post
              I went down to the moorings of the mountains, the earth with its bars closed behind me forever, yet You have brought up my life from the pit, O LORD, my God. (Jonah 2:6)

              The pit is a reference to a grave.
              Oh gosh! Jonah the dreamer! He never even left his bed. Jonah was a prophet and if there is a prophet "among you" to him I'll make My will known through a dream or vision. (Num. 12:6) Jonah had a dream about Nineveh to remind himself of the Jewish role to bring salvation to Mankind. Didn't Jesus say that salvation comes from the Jews? (John 4:22) So, Jonah hated the Assyrians for what they would do to destroy the Ten Tribes of Israel. So, in his dream, he tried to escape God's assignment of him to bring salvation to the Assyrians no matter what. Then Jonah went down to Joppa, took a ship to Tarshish and once aboard, he went down into the hold of the ship and lay there fast asleep. (Jonah 1:1-5) Then the crew woke him up and... you know the rest. Every thing happened on a double dream.

              Pit here is a reference to how low Jonah fell down to reach rock bottom for trying to escape his Jewish responsibility as Immanuel. (Isa. 8:8)

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Ben Masada View Post
                Oh gosh! Jonah the dreamer! He never even left his bed. Jonah was a prophet and if there is a prophet "among you" to him I'll make My will known through a dream or vision. (Num. 12:6) Jonah had a dream about Nineveh to remind himself of the Jewish role to bring salvation to Mankind. Didn't Jesus say that salvation comes from the Jews? (John 4:22) So, Jonah hated the Assyrians for what they would do to destroy the Ten Tribes of Israel. So, in his dream, he tried to escape God's assignment of him to bring salvation to the Assyrians no matter what. Then Jonah went down to Joppa, took a ship to Tarshish and once aboard, he went down into the hold of the ship and lay there fast asleep. (Jonah 1:1-5) Then the crew woke him up and... you know the rest. Every thing happened on a double dream.

                Pit here is a reference to how low Jonah fell down to reach rock bottom for trying to escape his Jewish responsibility as Immanuel. (Isa. 8:8)
                so are you going to heaven?

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by ABMF View Post
                  so are you going to heaven?
                  I do not need to go to heaven as I have it already within myself. Isn't what Jesus said in Luke 17:21 that the kingdom of heaven is a peaceful state of mind we are supposed to let it grow within ourselves? There!

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Ben Masada View Post
                    I do not need to go to heaven as I have it already within myself. Isn't what Jesus said in Luke 17:21 that the kingdom of heaven is a peaceful state of mind we are supposed to let it grow within ourselves? There!
                    Oh? Since when did you accept Yeshua HaMashiach? You enjoy misinterpreting that verse. The previous verse expains it. “Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.” Yeshua wasn't saying that the kingdom of God was inside them but rather among them, as also noted in Matthew 12:28. “But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you.” In other words, Yeshua is the kingdom of God for us.
                    I AM the pie lady!!

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by IMJerusha View Post
                      Oh? Since when did you accept Yeshua HaMashiach? You enjoy misinterpreting that verse. The previous verse expains it. “Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.” Yeshua wasn't saying that the kingdom of God was inside them but rather among them, as also noted in Matthew 12:28. “But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you.” In other words, Yeshua is the kingdom of God for us.
                      Well Jerusha, the previous verse (Luke 17:20) rather confirms verse 21. Jesus simply tried to explain that the kingdom of Heaven was not some thing to observe when it comes but to feel it within ourselves. Inside them or among them, it is not the point but to search oneself for it. The quote you bring from Mat. 12:28 only complicates things all together because it is not Jewish. Demon possessions is not according to the Faith of Jesus which was Judaism.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Ben Masada View Post
                        Jamie, I agree with you that God can do every thing and more but one: The thing you wish He did or should have done. The Lord has power over nature but not to carry it out to satisfy your demands.

                        I have never heard of a Jonah who died and lived again. Perhaps you are talking about your NT. The "I will wait till my change comes" of Job 14:14 is a reference to a change in his condition. Hence his question "If a man has died were he to live again..." This is a statement to the fact that a man who has died will never live again. You have rather confirmed my views about that text.

                        As I said above, God can all even resurrect whoever He chooses but not bodily resurrection which is what you have in mind as a result of Christian preconceived notions.
                        It seems to me, from what I have read, that this 'preconceived notion' is not peculiar to Christians alone, but is also held by some within Judaism. The Sadducees (sad-you-see) did/do not hold to bodily resurrection. The Pharisees (fair-you-see) do, and some even hold to reincarnation as well.

                        Oh, to be sad or fair? Forgive my little play on words there.

                        To me, those who do not believe in the world to come, or the next life are atheists. I have not yet reconciled this belief in God and the simultaneous belief of total perishing at death.

                        I do not hold the belief of resurrection just because of having been taught or because it is in the bible...these things have been proven to me through experience. Therefore, I do support the bible regarding these things totally... it too, through experiences, has been proven to me.
                        Matthew 18:6 KJ21

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Ben Masada View Post
                          Well Jerusha, the previous verse (Luke 17:20) rather confirms verse 21. Jesus simply tried to explain that the kingdom of Heaven was not some thing to observe when it comes but to feel it within ourselves. Inside them or among them, it is not the point but to search oneself for it. The quote you bring from Mat. 12:28 only complicates things all together because it is not Jewish. Demon possessions is not according to the Faith of Jesus which was Judaism.
                          I'm amazed at some of the things you post. I guess you don't read the Midrash, Pesikta de-Rav Kahannah 1:4, Numbers Rabbah 19.8 or Leviticus Rabbah 24:3. Demon exorcism was most definitely of the faith of Yeshua. In Judaism, exorcism, performed in public or in the synagogue requires the presence of a minyan to make up a ritual quorum. Read Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews wherein he describes demon exorcism with burnt herbs and water immersion. Exactly what kind of Jew are you anyway?... I can see you not accepting Scripture from B'rit Chadashah but you deny Torah/Midrash and accounts of the sages in Talmud. Me thinks you are not what you say you are. Me thinks you are an aberration. Big surprise there!

                          http://www.jewishjournal.com/cover_s...aism_20120627/

                          And try this one on for size:
                          http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-life...ds-many-demons
                          I AM the pie lady!!

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                          • #58
                            [QUOTE=Levolor;3872764]
                            It seems to me, from what I have read, that this preconceived notion is not peculiar to Christians alone, but is also held by some within Judaism.
                            Jews have all the right in the world to interpret the Tanach without being charged with preconceived notions. That's our Bible. The non-Jew who reads the Tanach with the intent to graft Christianity into it is reading it with Christian preconceived notions.

                            The Sadducees did not hold to bodily resurrection. The Pharisees do, and some even hold to reincarnation as well.
                            Neither the Sadducees nor the Pharisees believed in bodily resurrection. Their belief of resurrection was according to Ezekiel 37:12. A return from the graves of exile and back to the Land of Israel. According to Isaiah 53:8,9 to be exiled for the Jews was the same as to be cut off from the land of the living and buried in the graves of the nations. This could never be literal.

                            To me, those who do not believe in the world to come, or the next life are atheists. I have not yet reconciled this belief in God and the simultaneous belief of total perishing at death.
                            In that case Moses was an atheist for having said that man cannot live forever. (Gen.3:22) King David was an atheist for having said that once dead one can never return. (II Sam. 12:23) Job was an atheist for having said that from the shadow of death he would never return. (Job 10:21) Solomon was an atheist for having said that at death even his or her memory is forgotten. (Eccl. 9:5,6) I think it is enough. If I continue, every one will be an atheist in the Tanach.

                            I do not hold the belief of resurrection just because of having been taught or because it is in the bible...these things have been proven to me through experience. Therefore, I do support the bible regarding these things totally... it too, through experiences, has been proven to me.
                            Please, show me where in the Bible that Jesus always referred to as the Word of God is written about bodily resurrection and you will have scored high with me. Experience!!! Have you experienced bodily resurrection? That'll be the day!

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by IMJerusha View Post
                              I'm amazed at some of the things you post. I guess you don't read the Midrash, Pesikta de-Rav Kahannah 1:4, Numbers Rabbah 19.8 or Leviticus Rabbah 24:3. Demon exorcism was most definitely of the faith of Yeshua. In Judaism, exorcism, performed in public or in the synagogue requires the presence of a minyan to make up a ritual quorum. Read Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews wherein he describes demon exorcism with burnt herbs and water immersion. Exactly what kind of Jew are you anyway?... I can see you not accepting Scripture from B'rit Chadashah but you deny Torah/Midrash and accounts of the sages in Talmud. Me thinks you are not what you say you are. Me thinks you are an aberration. Big surprise there!
                              Jerusha, I thought we were discussing the Scriptures and not midrashim. Not only in Christianity but even in Judaism we have people who believe in demons, exorcism, and even voodoo and Santeria. It does not mean though that this is Judaism. Josephus must have been describing some of these people's psychic practices. For a Jew to believe in such things, it only means contradictions of the Tanach; let alone idolatry. Me thinks you are not too familiar with these variations of beliefs within the main Sect.

                              When Isaiah said, "To the Law and the Prophets; if you don't teach accordingly, it is because there is no truth in what you say" he was speaking to Israel. (Isa. 8:20) You can't imagine how many among the People of Israel at the time of Elijah practiced these things as part of the Baal sect of worshipers.

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                              • #60
                                I don't understand all this Ray Comfort style BS going around calling people adulterers and murderers. How many people do these bull horning loud mouths get saved? If you're going to the unsaved calling them murderers, they are likely to say something like "wow, I'm not really that bad" and then not get saved. Teaching people the laws of God is necessary, but AFTER they get saved. Before they get saved, doctrine won't matter. All the unsaved need to know is they are sinners and need faith in Jesus Christ to save them. The Bible says all liars will go to hell. Have you ever told a lie? Yes, everyone has. Then you will go to hell without faith in the Lord. We don't need to tell everyone they are equal to a mass murderer. That's not going to do much of anything but make people resist what you say. Just give them the Gospel. Then once they are saved, then help them learn all doctrine through the Bible. Further, putting so much emphasis on all these sins is making people think if they sin they are going to hell. That is not the gospel. Sinners go to hell unless they believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. The wage of sin is death, but Jesus is the way to eternal life. Lack of faith is what will send people to hell. We should be focusing on giving people the Gospel and getting them saved. Then they can learn doctrine. All this Ray Comfort yelling and shouting is not a very good way to get people saved. We need to be preaching against sin and preaching doctrine from the pulpit to edify the saints. Preaching hard on doctrine to the unsaved doesn't make sense. Get them saved first.

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