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Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

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  • Re-cap and intro. to the Padgett Messages......

    Originally posted by Timotheos View Post
    I want to make it clear to those who believe in eternal conscious torment that there are two separate groups who don't believe in the false doctrine of ECT. One group believes that everyone will eventually be saved, they are called the Christian Universalists. Rob Bell seems to be one of those. The other group believes that the penalty for sin is actually death. Real death where the sinner actually dies and is not alive and conscious. We call this view "Conditional Immortality" since immortality is only granted under the conditon that the sinner receive Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of his sins. This view is also known as "Annihilationism" since we believe the soul perishes in hell. I don't like this term though, because of all of the confusion over the word "annihilate."

    Each of the three doctrines has something in common and one thing against the other two.

    Conditionalists and Eternal Tormentists agree that there is an eternal punishment for sin and disagree with the Universalists that all will be saved.

    Conditionalists and Universalists agree that there is no eternal conscious torment in hell and disagree with the Tormentists about the nature of hell.

    Universalists and Tormentists agree that everyone lives forever and disagree with the Conditionalists that some people actually will perish.

    Correct analysis, for conditionalists and universalists reject the idea of ECT (the former believe rejectors of 'God' will be 'extinguished', while universalists believe all souls will ultimately be 'saved'), while traditionalist believers in ECT assume that human souls-spirits are inherently more or less eternal and must remain as conscious living beings for all eternity (therefore no one ever ceases to exist, or could suffer an actual eternal termination of existence).

    I approach this and problems associated with ECT from a more liberal spiritualist view, as shared ealier here & here. There's more to consider, which includes the nature and destiny of souls, their 'constitution' and 'potential' in the plan of 'God' as far as 'survival' or 'salvation' goes. 'Scriptures' do not necessarily have the final or perfect answer on these matters, so are 'open' to 'interpretation'.

    Apart from dogmas and assumptions,....exploring this philosophically enables a versatility of possibilities. As shared earlier,....I see that all souls that still have the ability and capacity for repentance, keep the possibility of salvation open to them, as long as divine love and will allows for the provision of restoration and healing. Therefore, a soul could only be in eternal conscious torment, if that soul is continually sinning and reaping the consequences of such which is suffering, disease and death. That would be 'hell',...if a soul could continually use its 'free will' to choose sin and self-destruction. According to the law of karma or 'compensation'....all that is sown, must be reaped, so a soul that continues in sin...will naturally reap the consequences of such. In this view, it is NEVER 'God' enforcing or keeping a soul in this condition of suffering or torment, for such suffering is self-inflicted, for the soul itself much pay for its own sins, and afford itself salvation via 'reform', 'repentance', and drawing near to God for transformation of heart & soul.

    If we entertain the idea that spirit-souls are inherently more or less eternal, so that they continue on in some condition or state in the afterlife...then its reasonable to assume the same laws that govern one's psychic and spiritual condition and progress continue on in the spirit-world....so that one carries on his spiritual journey right after physical death in the dimensions beyond. As long as one's soul can be affected or conditioned in any way.....souls still reap what they sow...for such is a universal law. They can either progress spiritually or remain stagnant..or degenerate to a certain degree...before they choose to lift themselves towards the grace and helps that are ever availing...to ascend Godward...and enjoy the happiness and health that comes with obeying God's laws....being in a state of 'at-one-ment' with Him.

    ~*~*~

    The Padgett messages offer a view that rejects the traditional concept of 'atonement' here ....and expands on the 'Law of compensation' here. While these messages present their own terms and context concerning the soul's development and destiny, outside of a stringent orthodox interpretation of 'scripture', their teaching stands on its own merit, soundness and wisdom, so are to be understood within the context of the teaching itself....as a whole. Such is shared as another perspective regarding soul-salvation. According to this school,...all spirits generally progress upward, but some may only attain the perfection of 'natural love' and go no further than the 6th sphere in the spirit-world, while others will receive the 'divine love' and experience the 'new birth' of the Spirit where souls become partakers of the 'divine nature' and actually become 'immortalized' by their union with God, attaining the 7th sphere and continuing beyond in the celestial worlds. In this view then, 'immortality' is 'conditional' in that only the souls who receive the 'divine love' and experience the 'new birth' become 'immortal',..while other spirits may become perfect in 'natural love' only progressing so far in the spirit-world. Only souls that share in the immortality of 'God' are assured eternal life and survival into eternity, while others maintain a life consonant to their own soul's condition or development from the level of 'natural human love'.




    pj


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    • Tim-
      Do you think the people in the Lake of Fire are tormented in themselves by the fact they will never have the chance to change their circumstances and be in the presence of God ever again?
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      • The doctrin of eternal damnation may or may not be Biblical but it is logical.
        "Not everything that is clever, is true."

        - - St Ephiram of Syria - -

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        • Originally posted by godrulz View Post
          It is unreasonable to identify the biblical adherents as tormentists (loaded language). This makes Jesus an evil tormenter, not a righteous Judge.
          I never identified the biblical adherents as "Tormentists". I identified the biblical adherents as "Conditionalists". I don't know how else to identify those who believe in eternal torment. I certainly can't call them "biblical adherents". There is no verse in the bible that says "For the wages of sin is eternal conscious torment, but the gift of God is to not be eternally consciously tormented". If you believe that your doctrine makes Jesus and evil tormenter, perhaps it is time to leave that doctrine. Jesus is a righteous Judge. If he sent His enemies away to eternal conscious torment, he would not be a righteous judge, because that would not be justice.

          Physical death only makes us separate from this planet.
          That's a new one, that I haven't heard before. So in your opinion, Death is not Death, like not being alive anymore? In your opinion death is a rocket? Can you give me the chapter and verse where the Bible says that death is a rocket?

          It does not negate the person.
          I don't know what you mean by this. Are you saying that a person can be killed and not have it affect their life?
          I believe that death causes a person to die, but they can be resurrected again. I believe that there is no resurrection from the second death after the resurrection from the first death. People die, they are resurrected from death and are judged. The judgement determines whether they receive eternal life or go to the second death.

          I assume you believe in soul sleep
          What do you mean by soul sleep? I believe the wages of sin is death. I don't think dead people are alive, do you? I believe that people live, people die, people can and will be resurrected by Jesus Christ when He returns. In short, I believe the Bible.

          Are you SDA?
          No. Are you Mormon?

          Physical death is separation of spirit-soul from body.
          I don't believe this is true. Can you supply the Chapter and Verse from the Bible that says "Physical death is separation of spirit-soul from body". Thanks a bunch.

          Spiritual death is relational separation from God.
          You have a lot of funny beliefs. Can you give the scripture reference that says this?

          Dead in sin (Eph. 2) does not mean non-existent, non-conscious (I Tim. 5:6 alive while dead?!).
          Metaphors do not negate the plain meaning of the word "death". You committing the fallacy the D.A. Carson calls "Illegitamate Totality Transfer", whereby you assign the definition of word from one context into a completely different context and assume it means exactly the same thing in the new context.

          Eternal death/second death is separation of sinner from holy God forever.
          Only because the death kills the sinner.
          If you are assuming the sinner remains alive and separated from God while he is dead, please supply the appropriate chaper and verse.

          It is not cessation of existence/consciousness.
          If you believe that dead people are conscious, it is up to you to prove that. I don't bring my assuptions to the Bible, like you do

          A computer can be destroyed as to function without being atomized or non-existent.
          That's true. But we are not talking about computers, are we? A person can be dead without being atomized or non-existent too. Just because they are not atomized or non-existent, doesn't mean that they are alilve and conscious while they are dead.

          Too many verses support a view of consciousness in after life.
          Toss a couple over here. Too many verses support the fact that the wicked will perish, be destroyed, and be no more.

          There are two destinies with a heaven to gain and a hell to shun.
          Who told you this? Is it in the Bible? Can you give the scripture reference that says this?

          Liberal, modern compromises of this to make God/gospel more palatable are lies.
          Again, I am only asking, "What does the Bible actually say?" I am not liberal, and the doctrine that the wages of sin is death is not modern. It has been around since Adam, and described throughout the Bible, and believed by the early church prior to the time of Augustine who made the idea of ECT popular.
          Last edited by Timotheos; February 10th, 2013, 07:04 AM. Reason: typo

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          • Originally posted by tomlapalm View Post
            I was giving a generalization not personal. I believe much of your error is from deriving doctrine from English, not Greek and Hebrew.
            Okay, you caught me up. I derived my doctrine from reading English Translations of the Bible. I also read the NT in the original Greek, about a chapter a day. It supports Conditionalism even stronger than the translations do. I'm sorry that I cannot read Hebrew, but I know that there are no passages in the OT that say that the wicked will go to hell when they die where they will be tormented alive forever while they are dead. BUT, I started learning Hebrew this year.

            I think I insulted you earlier. I think you will reveal your agenda soon
            You caught me again! Yes, I am about to reveal my agenda. Are you ready? My agenda is this: I want people to read the Bible for themselves, and test every belief they have to see if their beliefs come from scripture or man made traditions.

            But, thanks for apologizing for insulting me. Apology accepted. May God bless you richly today.

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            • Originally posted by Lighthouse View Post
              Tim-
              Do you think the people in the Lake of Fire are tormented in themselves by the fact they will never have the chance to change their circumstances and be in the presence of God ever again?
              No. According to the Bible, the lake of fire is the second death. Since those who are in the lake of fire are dead, they don't have the ability to torment themselves. The Biblical word for what those who are in the lake of fire are is "ash". Malachi 4:3

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Timotheos View Post
                No. According to the Bible, the lake of fire is the second death. Since those who are in the lake of fire are dead, they don't have the ability to torment themselves. The Biblical word for what those who are in the lake of fire are is "ash". Malachi 4:3
                I suspect that once someone is insane enough to separate him/herself from God, he is dead already. He is no longer in the light from whence comes love and sustenance.
                His ultimate end is disintegration into nothingness.

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                • Originally posted by bybee View Post
                  I suspect that once someone is insane enough to separate him/herself from God, he is dead already. He is no longer in the light from whence comes love and sustenance.
                  His ultimate end is disintegration into nothingness.
                  This would mean that once a person becomes an atheist, they drop dead right there. I don't believe this. I believe that we have this lifetime to either accept Jesus Christ or reject Him. Then we all die.

                  When Jesus Christ returns, He resurrects everyone out of the grave, John 5:25, and He will judge the everyone in the world. Those who have put their trust in Him will receive eternal life from Him, and those who have rejected Him will go to their second death.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Timotheos View Post
                    Okay, you caught me up. I derived my doctrine from reading English Translations of the Bible. I also read the NT in the original Greek, about a chapter a day. It supports Conditionalism even stronger than the translations do. I'm sorry that I cannot read Hebrew, but I know that there are no passages in the OT that say that the wicked will go to hell when they die where they will be tormented alive forever while they are dead. BUT, I started learning Hebrew this year.


                    You caught me again! Yes, I am about to reveal my agenda. Are you ready? My agenda is this: I want people to read the Bible for themselves, and test every belief they have to see if their beliefs come from scripture or man made traditions.

                    But, thanks for apologizing for insulting me. Apology accepted. May God bless you richly today.
                    your original post was to question scripture and God. Why test what is plainly stated in several places?

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by tomlapalm View Post
                      your original post was to question scripture and God. Why test what is plainly stated in several places?
                      What? You are not God, and you don't write scripture, AFAIK.
                      This is the question:
                      Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not? How is that questioning scripture and God?

                      The reason to test is to test what we assume is plainly stated in scripture in several places, but on closer inspection we find is not stated at all. This way we can purge our own ignorance and discern the truth of scripture. The unexamined belief is not worth holding. A belief, before it is examined by the light of scripture is not really a belief at all, but an assumption. I understand your fear to test your assumptions, you may fear that what you believe is not really true and your whole belief system may come crumbling down around your knees. That is a risk we all take when we believe something. I would rather test my belief that I have received a fine set of clothing that only those who are worthy can see, than walk out of my palace completely naked.

                      Aside from that, it is very rewarding to put your beliefs to the test and find that the Bible actually does support your beliefs. You also gain a richer understanding of your beliefs and are better able to defend them against atheists.
                      Last edited by Timotheos; February 10th, 2013, 08:41 AM. Reason: typo

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by godrulz View Post
                        I commend Timotheos for being civil and putting up with our abuse.
                        Thank you.

                        AdHoms don't prove anything one way or the other.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Timotheos View Post
                          This would mean that once a person becomes an atheist, they drop dead right there. I don't believe this. I believe that we have this lifetime to either accept Jesus Christ or reject Him. Then we all die.

                          When Jesus Christ returns, He resurrects everyone out of the grave, John 5:25, and He will judge the everyone in the world. Those who have put their trust in Him will receive eternal life from Him, and those who have rejected Him will go to their second death.
                          Are you SDA if you dont mind me asking?
                          sigpic

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Timotheos View Post
                            This would mean that once a person becomes an atheist, they drop dead right there. I don't believe this. I believe that we have this lifetime to either accept Jesus Christ or reject Him. Then we all die.

                            When Jesus Christ returns, He resurrects everyone out of the grave, John 5:25, and He will judge the everyone in the world. Those who have put their trust in Him will receive eternal life from Him, and those who have rejected Him will go to their second death.
                            Nope, it does not mean that!
                            I said "disintegration" begins. Perhaps, if caught early, repairs may be made. If not, the downhill slide into the furnace can be quite steep.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Angel4Truth View Post
                              Are you SDA if you dont mind me asking?
                              I don't much like you asking, but no. I am not SDA.
                              I'm a Bible Believing Truth Loving Christian, inotherwords, I am a Conditionalist. (who is sick today and that's why I'm not pew sitting!)

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                              • Originally posted by Timotheos View Post
                                I don't much like you asking, but no. I am not SDA.
                                I'm a Bible Believing Truth Loving Christian, inotherwords, I am a Conditionalist. (who is sick today and that's why I'm not pew sitting!)
                                It appeared to me you were saying you believe in both soul sleep and annihilation.

                                Ive only known of SDA believers who believed both of those at once.
                                sigpic

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