Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[Angel4Truth]

The only people around here who believe in living dead spirits that travel to heaven, hell, and other worlds are Mormons.

Are you a Mormon?
(see what I did there? I said I wouldn't do it, but I did :chuckle

No mormon, and you must not know many Christians, because nearly all of them i know, believe when you die physically, if you are a believer then you are present with the Lord.

 

[godrulz]

I don't much like you asking, but no. I am not SDA.
I'm a Bible Believing Truth Loving Christian, inotherwords, I am a Conditionalist. (who is sick today and that's why I'm not pew sitting!)

Which church do you go to?

 

[godrulz]

The term "soul sleep" is pretty offensive, don't you think?
Jesus said "our friend lazarus sleepeth". Would you call Jesus Christ a SDA or a believer in "soul sleep"?

I could use derogatory terms for the beliefs of others too. I could, but I won't.

Jesus was using sleep as a metaphor for death. A dead person looks like they are sleeping.

Soul sleep heresy refers to the JW/SDA idea that we are not conscious after death until the resurrection. The biblical position is that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. We don't have a dirt nap when we die, but are conscious in heaven or hell until our bodies are resurrected (at the rapture before the Trib for believers and after the millennium at the GWT for unbelievers).

 

[Timotheos]

http://www.challies.com/articles/th...eedBlitzEmail&utm_campaign=0&utm_content=5575

It is biblical and logical.

It is unbiblical and illogical.

When you post things like this, also post WHY you believe them. Say "It is Biblical, because John 3:16 says that God will torment sinners in hot hell for all eternity" or "It is logical for God to torment sinners for billions upon billions of years because of one sin they committed, because that's fair."

ECT is unbiblical, because there is not one Bible verse that supports the false doctrine.

ECT is illogical, because God is just and it is inherently injust and illogical to torment a person forever and ever without end.

 

[bybee]

Angel, I understand your son died, and I don't want to be insensitive.

I believe he will live again and be with you in the resurrection. Read the account of Martha, Mary and Lazarus in John, Chapter 11.

I believe in Jesus, I also believe what He believed.

Timotheo, I shal dislike you very much if you are one of those posters who presumes to tell other Christians the bleeding obvious!
We all read the Bible and we all know the story of Mary, Martha and Lazarus!

 

[Timotheos]

No mormon, and you must not know many Christians, because nearly all of them i know, believe when you die physically, if you are a believer then you are present with the Lord.

No, I know them. I just don't determine what the truth is by counting noses. What does the Bible say? Is the wages of sin eternal conscious torment or is the wages of sin death? Read Romans 6:23 and tell me what it says.

 

[godrulz]

Angel, I understand your son died, and I don't want to be insensitive.

I believe he will live again and be with you in the resurrection. Read the account of Martha, Mary and Lazarus in John, Chapter 11.

I believe in Jesus, I also believe what He believed.

You keep equating your views with the plain Bible and plain Jesus. Your views are interpretative and wrong. Lk. 16 shows that Jesus had a different view than you, parable or not (and I think not, but even if it is, it would not falsely portrary doctrine; if your view is right, Jesus would not have used falsehood, metaphor or not, to convey intended spiritual truth/reality).

 

[Angel4Truth]

Angel, I understand your son died, and I don't want to be insensitive.

I believe he will live again and be with you in the resurrection. Read the account of Martha, Mary and Lazarus in John, Chapter 11.

I believe in Jesus, I also believe what He believed.

I believe hes already with Jesus.

 

[Timotheos]

Timotheo, I shal dislike you very much if you are one of those posters who presumes to tell other Christians the bleeding obvious!
We all read the Bible and we all know the story of Mary, Martha and Lazarus!

That was meant as a comfort to a lady who lost her son. It was a reminder of what Jesus said to Martha and Mary who lost their brother. Take instant offense, why don't you? Jesus will resurrect the dead. Paul TOLD us to comfort one another with these words. If you don't like me, fine. Go away. I am unlikeable anyway.

 

[godrulz]

It is unbiblical and illogical.

When you post things like this, also post WHY you believe them. Say "It is Biblical, because John 3:16 says that God will torment sinners in hot hell for all eternity" or "It is logical for God to torment sinners for billions upon billions of years because of one sin they committed, because that's fair."

ECT is unbiblical, because there is not one Bible verse that supports the false doctrine.

ECT is illogical, because God is just and it is inherently injust and illogical to torment a person forever and ever without end.

You are like rationalist C.T. Russell (JW) in your arguments, putting sentiment and reason above revelation.

Most conditionalists would not be so dishonest to say there is not one verse to support other views. We all must interpret. My view is based on the cumulative evidence, but you want a verse to say that death means separation, hell is ECT, etc. You ignore principles and explicit words (tormented day and night forever and ever....the two people still there being tormented when others are added 1000 years later, etc.) and twist and rationalize any that contradict you. Word studies on punishment, destruction, etc. also do not have to support your view (you assume your own definitions and fail to recognize semantic range of meaning).

You sound confidant and argue reasonably well, but you have a wrong view. It is arrogant to assume that 2000 years of wrestling with this topic leading to a majority view (until recent popular compromises/attacks) have not produced 1 verse for the traditional view or many against your view.

You are starting to waste our time.

Since you worship Jesus as YHWH (I hope), we agree to disagree on a non-salvific issue.:box:

 

[Angel4Truth]

No, I know them. I just don't determine what the truth is by counting noses. What does the Bible say? Is the wages of sin eternal conscious torment or is the wages of sin death? Read Romans 6:23 and tell me what it says.

Read John 5:24 and tell me what it says, then read 2 Corinthians 5:8 and tell me what it says also.

 

[Timotheos]

You keep equating your views with the plain Bible and plain Jesus. Your views are interpretative and wrong. Lk. 16 shows that Jesus had a different view than you, parable or not (and I think not, but even if it is, it would not falsely portrary doctrine; if your view is right, Jesus would not have used falsehood, metaphor or not, to convey intended spiritual truth/reality).

And you call me a heretic for not believing you when you tell me the bible says something that the bible does not say. Maybe you interpret the bible differently than I do, but at least when I say the bible says something, that's what the bible says.

 

[godrulz]

No, I know them. I just don't determine what the truth is by counting noses. What does the Bible say? Is the wages of sin eternal conscious torment or is the wages of sin death? Read Romans 6:23 and tell me what it says.

In principle, death is separation. Adam died, yet was alive, when he sinned, for e.g. You beg the question by assuming your definition of death as cessation is right. Different contexts also talk about physical, spiritual, eternal death (some of your verses just show that those who die physically do not know the news stories on earth in the after life).

Using your logic, the triune God is not trinity because some verses only mention Father or Son, but do not say 'God is trinity'.

You argue like a JW on the issue of hell. Shame.

 

[bybee]

In principle, death is separation. Adam died, yet was alive, when he sinned, for e.g. You beg the question by assuming your definition of death as cessation is right. Different contexts also talk about physical, spiritual, eternal death (some of your verses just show that those who die physically do not know the news stories on earth in the after life).

Using your logic, the triune God is not trinity because some verses only mention Father or Son, but do not say 'God is trinity'.

You argue like a JW on the issue of hell. Shame.

I'm beginning to see similarities in Timotheo to another former JW poster. You may be on to something !

 

[Timotheos]

Read John 5:24 and tell me what it says, then read 2 Corinthians 5:8 and tell me what it says also.

I asked you first! What does Romans 6:23 say is the wages of sin?

John 5:24 says "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life."

Yes, this is what I believe. At the judgment, they pass from death to life and have eternal life. Those who reject him come into judgment and go to the second death. Obviously unbelievers do not pass from death to life, only believers.

2 Corinthians 5:8 says "So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord,"

In 2 Corinthians 5, Paul is talking about the resurrection. This doesn't say that we are instantly with the Lord when we die. If we were, why would he return to resurrect us?

 

[Timotheos]

I'm beginning to see similarities in Timotheo to another former JW poster. You may be on to something !

Adhominum attacks do not prove your point. The fact that you make them proves that you don't have any scriptural support for your position. If you had any scriptures to support your false position, you would use them instead of merely calling me names. The fallacy you are committing is called "poisoning the well", and I have warned other posters who have committed this fallacy.

So while we are poisoning the well, Mormons, Muslims, the Spanish Inquistion, and Adolph Hitler all believed in ECT. More Cults teach ECT than teach any other doctrine. So there.

 

[godrulz]

I'm beginning to see similarities in Timotheo to another former JW poster. You may be on to something !

No. He is not like JW Chandler. I am just saying his arguments and logic are JW-like (pseudo-scholarship).

He has not denied being trinitarian (but he is evasive at times), so I assume we are dealing with a brother in Christ. There is room under our tent for his view, as wrong as it is.

 

[Angel4Truth]

I asked you first! What does Romans 6:23 say is the wages of sin?

John 5:24 says "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life."

Yes, this is what I believe. At the judgment, they pass from death to life and have eternal life. Those who reject him come into judgment and go to the second death. Obviously unbelievers do not pass from death to life, only believers.

2 Corinthians 5:8 says "So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord,"

In 2 Corinthians 5, Paul is talking about the resurrection. This doesn't say that we are instantly with the Lord when we die. If we were, why would he return to resurrect us?

The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is life eternal for those who believe and Christ already said that those who believe have passed (have passed is past tense) from death into life, so the wages of sin for them for them is no longer death because they have ALREADY been risen to life in Christ, so when they physically die, they are already present with the Lord in Spirit.

Why would the wages of death apply to one alive in Christ?

See your own contradiction in your own words in red, you directly contradict scripture by claiming there is a judgment for the believer when Christ already said there would not be because they have already passed from death (wages of sin) to life.

 

[godrulz]

I asked you first! What does Romans 6:23 say is the wages of sin?

John 5:24 says "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life."

Yes, this is what I believe. At the judgment, they pass from death to life and have eternal life. Those who reject him come into judgment and go to the second death. Obviously unbelievers do not pass from death to life, only believers.

2 Corinthians 5:8 says "So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord,"

In 2 Corinthians 5, Paul is talking about the resurrection. This doesn't say that we are instantly with the Lord when we die. If we were, why would he return to resurrect us?

Is he talking about the resurrection or our experience at death?

I Cor. 15 IS talking explicitly about the resurrection, another matter.

 

[godrulz]

Adhominum attacks do not prove your point. The fact that you make them proves that you don't have any scriptural support for your position. If you had any scriptures to support your false position, you would use them instead of merely calling me names. The fallacy you are committing is called "poisoning the well", and I have warned other posters who have committed this fallacy.

So while we are poisoning the well, Mormons, Muslims, the Spanish Inquistion, and Adolph Hitler all believed in ECT. More Cults teach ECT than teach any other doctrine. So there.

I like how people throw logical fallacy accusations around (my observation was valid, not a fallacy) while they commit them themselves.