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  • #61
    Well it all comes back down to this for the Over and the calvanist. God's foreknowledge is causal. Both believe that. The Calvinist say that because God foreknew He set ever act of man as a design of God and therefore is the author of sin and evil as well as righteousness and good. The OVer thinks that because God's foreknowledge would be causal then God would not have know in advance of the event so deny foreknowledge all together even in the face of God's testimony to the contrary. To the Calvinist God becomes the author of sin and to the OVer God becomes a God of risk management. A gambler in the game of life with the life of men as the prise to be won or lost. Poor old man is but a pawn and not responsible for what he does or does not do. One says, "God made me do it" and the other says, "the Devil made me do it." In ether case man is but the dice being rolled in the game of human life or wondering if he was meant for hell or heaven.
    Galatians 5:13 ¶For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

    The borrower is slave to the linder. What makes this country think it is rich and free?

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by elected4ever View Post
      Well it all comes back down to this for the Over and the calvanist. God's foreknowledge is causal. Both believe that. The Calvinist say that because God foreknew He set ever act of man as a design of God and therefore is the author of sin and evil as well as righteousness and good. The OVer thinks that because God's foreknowledge would be causal then God would not have know in advance of the event so deny foreknowledge all together even in the face of God's testimony to the contrary. To the Calvinist God becomes the author of sin and to the OVer God becomes a God of risk management. A gambler in the game of life with the life of men as the prise to be won or lost. Poor old man is but a pawn and not responsible for what he does or does not do. One says, "God made me do it" and the other says, "the Devil made me do it." In ether case man is but the dice being rolled in the game of human life or wondering if he was meant for hell or heaven.
      This is just a lie. It's unbelievable that you just keep repeating this.

      No Open View person that I know of believe that foreknowledge is causal. Why do you have to keep saying that over and over again? How many times do you have to be told before you'll get it?

      Are you just saying it to be saying it? Trying to make us angry or something? Why can't you just debate what we actually believe? Is your position so weak that you have to force yourself to believe the straw men you erect are real and that you've done something important by burning them to the ground?
      sigpic
      "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

      Comment


      • #63
        DAVE,
        That is awesome! I spent some time last week on your site ... didn't get to the evangelism page, but I plan to spend some time there. Thanks for the link.

        I spend my life in the alley-ways, dumps, and under bridges. I do better on sidewalks than in sanctuaries. I've been at this now for 10 years. Don't get me wrong I love the church. But, my calling is the street. If I knew how I would post some pics of our alley work and the 'Church at the Dump". Use your imagination! It isn't Washington Square Park, but I'll bet you get the picture.

        Most Christians have spent so much time in the church, preoccupied with the church, that they have either forgotten or never known what Jesus is doing in the world. It is amazing how the Gospel rings true with people who have nothing to defend and nothing to prove. How sad it is to find people who God is already working on/in through (natural revelation or universal grace ... His Spirit His way) rejecting Jesus because the message they heard from the church is inconsistent with what the Spirit is actually doing. Of course they can’t express this in ‘churchtalk’ so the church seldom understands if it is listening at all. It is so much fun to witness the work of Jesus and to be able to say, "Yes! That is God at work in your life to bring you into right relationship with himself. Want some more?" It is so much easier to follow Christ in the world than it is to lead or take Him there.

        I find when on the street, that very often, the god that most people reject is the god that has been shaped in their thinking by more misinformation than Gospel? Sometimes I wonder if Paul wasn't talking about Calvinists (and even all us want-a-be-theologians) when he said, "... they exchange the truth about God for a lie. " We certainly do idolize our theologies when it is the simple Gospel that people need.


        "Proof? You want PROOF! You can't handle the proof!"

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by Clete View Post
          This is just a lie. It's unbelievable that you just keep repeating this.

          No Open View person that I know of believe that foreknowledge is causal. Why do you have to keep saying that over and over again? How many times do you have to be told before you'll get it?

          Are you just saying it to be saying it? Trying to make us angry or something? Why can't you just debate what we actually believe? Is your position so weak that you have to force yourself to believe the straw men you erect are real and that you've done something important by burning them to the ground?
          He can't get it, clete. God does all his thinking for him now that he is a new man in christ.


          Quote:
          Originally Posted by elected4ever View Post
          Well it all comes back down to this for the Over and the calvanist. God's foreknowledge is causal. Both believe that. The Calvinist say that because God foreknew He set ever act of man as a design of God and therefore is the author of sin and evil as well as righteousness and good. The OVer thinks that because God's foreknowledge would be causal then God would not have know in advance of the event so deny foreknowledge all together even in the face of God's testimony to the contrary. To the Calvinist God becomes the author of sin and to the OVer God becomes a God of risk management. A gambler in the game of life with the life of men as the prise to be won or lost. Poor old man is but a pawn and not responsible for what he does or does not do. One says, "God made me do it" and the other says, "the Devil made me do it." In ether case man is but the dice being rolled in the game of human life or wondering if he was meant for hell or heaven.
          It is getting old, E. You're not in the game. You're not even in left field. You're not even in the stands selling hot dogs! You're not even in the ball park. What universe are you from?

          Man is the apple of God's eye, created in His own image, fallen and out of sink that image is marred not destroyed, yet still more like Him than not, and yes, in need of a savior to restore the relationship! WE have one! Calvinists, Arminians, and Open Theists all have the same redeemer! You need to quit thinking more highly of your self than you are capable of, get off your high-horse and join the rest of the church in hammering out the God-talk (theology) and quit making up your own version of the TRUTH. You’re not just wrong and confused; you’re toxic!


          "Proof? You want PROOF! You can't handle the proof!"

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by elected4ever View Post
            Well it all comes back down to this for the Over and the calvanist. God's foreknowledge is causal. Both believe that. The Calvinist say that because God foreknew He set ever act of man as a design of God and therefore is the author of sin and evil as well as righteousness and good. The OVer thinks that because God's foreknowledge would be causal then God would not have know in advance of the event so deny foreknowledge all together even in the face of God's testimony to the contrary. To the Calvinist God becomes the author of sin and to the OVer God becomes a God of risk management. A gambler in the game of life with the life of men as the prise to be won or lost. Poor old man is but a pawn and not responsible for what he does or does not do. One says, "God made me do it" and the other says, "the Devil made me do it." In ether case man is but the dice being rolled in the game of human life or wondering if he was meant for hell or heaven.
            Unfortunately, your view is hopelessly irrational. Any attempt to combine a "closed view" with "free will" has never worked. The result is always been a manipulation of plain scripture away from a literal interpretation and a redefinition of Biblical terms. You can't even seem to honestly repeat the arguments we are making, in the same way, you misrepresent what the scriptures are saying as well.
            www.dynamicfreetheism.com
            The only view of ultimate reality that provides
            rational answers to the questions of human origin, destiny, and dignity.
            The only view that proves the existence and explains
            the nature of God.

            Comment


            • #66
              It is not me that does not get it. I got it. All I have to do is read your post and follow your reasoning to its logical conclusion and there it is, stirring me right in the face. I here what you say and I see your desperation and fear.

              Clete, you are afraid to give God your sovereignty and trust God with the decisions of your life. I believe you really believe that you must make the decisions for your life and you have turned into a legalist. You do not understand that you are no longer of the flesh and the flesh has no power over you anymore. You like so many others believe you have to maintain the grace that is in you. Not for salvation sake but for some other reason that you have con-cocked. You are not a secure person in your mind.

              The Calvinist are full of fear. Not fear of God but fear of facing a world when they are the face of God and the decisions they make may be in error so God must make or has already made their decisions for them leaving them with no decision making responsibility.

              Perfect love cast out all fear. I do not fear of offending God as you and others do. Why, because while I am in this world I am not of it. I am not under condemnation and my Father treats me as a son and not as a stranger of foreigner to the household of God that I formally was. I have lost the fear of sin and gained a love for righteousness. Sin can nolonger harm me. What is it going to do? Kill my body which is the body's just reward? So what, I have lost myself and gained all. That is something you or the Calvinist have yet to realize.
              Galatians 5:13 ¶For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

              The borrower is slave to the linder. What makes this country think it is rich and free?

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by patman View Post
                This is an entirely different point. God can show us what is right and wrong even if we will at times do the wrong thing. The difference between that and what I was asking Lon to understand is this: God added to the commands promises for those who obey/disobey them.
                "Commands, promises?" What is this term?

                A command is the Law. A promise is grace. You are muddling two different concepts and aspects of Godly economy.

                You must understand what a lie is, right? If someone tells someone they will do something and know all along that they will not do it, that is a lie.
                Yes. That would be a false prophecy. But the Law of God and His commands are not prophecy, but statements of legal fact. The Law given to Adam in the very beginning, was, "Believe God to live; disobey God to die."

                That is not prophecy, nor promise, nor a conditional requirement. This is the Law and order of God's created universe.

                And that very Law has not changed, just because Adam failed to believe God. The Law is the same today as it was in the garden. Men must believe God to live. That is not a lie. Even though men cannot do it.

                But then that is why God sent the Savior, who could and did.


                If the future is settled, and God promises things he knows he will break (no matter what the excuse) it is a lie.
                God has never broken a promise. You are confusing Law with prophetic promise and thereby confusing yourself.

                So, if the future is settled, you must face the fact that God can lie.
                The future is determined. God cannot lie.


                You must reject the verse that says God cannot lie, and you have to realize that under the settled view, you really can't trust God because he can lie.
                No, I don't have to reject a single Word of God. I trust God completely to keep His promises and to fulfill every prophecy. I also trust the Son of God to keep the Law perfectly on my behalf. Jesus Christ believed and obeyed the Father in my stead, so that I might be made worthy to receive the promises of grace.

                You cannot make promises out of Law, and you cannot make Law out of promises of grace.

                Nang
                "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

                " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
                Gordon H. Clark

                "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
                Charles Spurgeon

                Comment


                • #68
                  Ga, 67 posts in 2 days. One can't skip a single day around here can they?
                  Good things come to those who shoot straight.

                  Did you only want evidence you are not going to call "wrong"? -Stripe

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by elected4ever View Post
                    It is not me that does not get it. I got it. All I have to do is read your post and follow your reasoning to its logical conclusion and there it is, stirring me right in the face. I here what you say and I see your desperation and fear.

                    Clete, you are afraid to give God your sovereignty and trust God with the decisions of your life. I believe you really believe that you must make the decisions for your life and you have turned into a legalist. You do not understand that you are no longer of the flesh and the flesh has no power over you anymore. You like so many others believe you have to maintain the grace that is in you. Not for salvation sake but for some other reason that you have con-cocked. You are not a secure person in your mind.

                    The Calvinist are full of fear. Not fear of God but fear of facing a world when they are the face of God and the decisions they make may be in error so God must make or has already made their decisions for them leaving them with no decision making responsibility.

                    Perfect love cast out all fear. I do not fear of offending God as you and others do. Why, because while I am in this world I am not of it. I am not under condemnation and my Father treats me as a son and not as a stranger of foreigner to the household of God that I formally was. I have lost the fear of sin and gained a love for righteousness. Sin can nolonger harm me. What is it going to do? Kill my body which is the body's just reward? So what, I have lost myself and gained all. That is something you or the Calvinist have yet to realize.
                    WE DO GET THAT! That's the point. WE GET IT! Praise God.

                    What you don't get is that THAT has nothing to do with the discussion.


                    "Proof? You want PROOF! You can't handle the proof!"

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Philetus View Post
                      WE DO GET THAT! That's the point. WE GET IT! Praise God.

                      What you don't get is that THAT has nothing to do with the discussion.

                      What you don't get is that it has everything to do with this discussion
                      Galatians 5:13 ¶For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

                      The borrower is slave to the linder. What makes this country think it is rich and free?

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        1 Corinthians 3:1 ¶And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
                        2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
                        3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
                        4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
                        5 ¶Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
                        6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
                        7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
                        8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
                        9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
                        10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
                        11 ¶For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
                        12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
                        13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
                        14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
                        15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
                        Galatians 5:13 ¶For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

                        The borrower is slave to the linder. What makes this country think it is rich and free?

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Sorry to interrupt, but I ran across this passage today in my study.

                          In reference to the propehcy of Psalms 2...Acts 4:25-28
                          How does verse 28 fit into the Open View?

                          thanks
                          Originally posted by Interplanner
                          They can't compete with a real writer and grammar scholar
                          Originally posted by Interplanner
                          You're too literal to get it.
                          Originally posted by Interplanner
                          The New Covenant preceded the Old Covenant.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by elected4ever View Post
                            What you don't get is that it has everything to do with this discussion
                            WE ALL get what you said ... one way or the another. What we are discussing is which is the 'one way' and which is 'the other'.

                            "Proof? You want PROOF! You can't handle the proof!"

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by SaulToPaul View Post
                              Sorry to interrupt, but I ran across this passage today in my study.

                              In reference to the propehcy of Psalms 2...Acts 4:25-28
                              How does verse 28 fit into the Open View?

                              thanks
                              The future isn't completely open. God planned before creation that Jesus would die for our sins if we sinned. He is wise enough to know how things will turn out most of the time, too.

                              The O.V. simply doesn't believe the future is totally settled...
                              - Changing wineskins, at last.

                              - iPhone's Coolest Bible/, Touch Bible.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Nang View Post
                                "Commands, promises?" What is this term?

                                A command is the Law. A promise is grace. You are muddling two different concepts and aspects of Godly economy.



                                Yes. That would be a false prophecy. But the Law of God and His commands are not prophecy, but statements of legal fact. The Law given to Adam in the very beginning, was, "Believe God to live; disobey God to die."

                                ....

                                You cannot make promises out of Law, and you cannot make Law out of promises of grace.

                                Nang
                                You are the one who is confused. I am half tempted to make you just re-read my last post.

                                You were confused by this: " God added to the commands promises for those who obey/disobey them."

                                You thought I was making up a new word apparently. I could say "I added to 3 1 for those who needed extra" and you should understand those people got 4. Granted there are better ways to say it, but why didn't you realize that is what I was doing?

                                That kinda throws a lot of your points off if you didn't even know what I was saying before.

                                If you aren't going to take the time to read and understand what I am saying before you hit the reply button, you'll just have to ask someone else about the O.V. because apparently you don't really care enough to read what I have to say.
                                - Changing wineskins, at last.

                                - iPhone's Coolest Bible/, Touch Bible.

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