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ARCHIVE - geoff's colossal contradiction (subtitled) HIS CONVERSION TO OPEN THEISM!

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  • Geoff:
    Yeah, right. Go you.
    The scripture you quoted says:
    1John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he who is faithful and just will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
    But you say:"Those who are the Children of God are forgiven for SIN. In that sense we are SIN-less, however, we still commit sinful deads, and need cleansing from those acts. "
    Well, if you still need cleansing, then you have not been cleansed from ALL unrighteousness.

    But I have been!

    And before you accuse me falsely again, let me say it one more time:
    I do not say that I have never sinned or that I have no sin. I only say that I no longer do so.

    1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
    Can you see the difference?
    God so sovereignly controls all events, both mental and physical, that we have no choice but to obey Him.

    Comment


    • JoBeth:

      The problem is the tense and the actual Greek words. They do not translate accurately.

      The tense and tone of 'cleanse' is not something that HAS happened only, but something that has happened and will continue to happen.

      The word for Sin indicates sinful deeds, however the later passage the word is the word for the 'state' or 'principle' of Sin.

      You see, Christ died so that we might be forgiven and set free from the principle of Sin, the state or unrighteousness before God... sinful deeds are only the outworking of this state, and require ongoing attention by us and God.

      Sanctification is not just a STATE, it is a state in the eyes of God, however for us, it is a process also.

      Just as we are SEEN as justified, but will not actually BE justified until judgement day, we are SEEN as sanctified, but will not ACTUALLY be sanctified until resurrection. We are seen by God as being in these states because we have been imputed with the righeousness and justification of Christ, we do not possess it ourselves. Imputed means 'accounted' or 'seen as' - it is a forensic term, or an accounting term. We are 'legally' justified and sanctified because we seen to possess Christs justification and sanctification.

      It is the "already but not yet principle" otherwise known as inaugerated eschatology.

      I do not say that I have never sinned or that I have no sin. I only say that I no longer do so.
      If you say you no longer sin you are either a liar, or misguided.

      Can you see the difference?
      I do.... you do not.
      Show me someone who is expressing in anger his views of God, and I will show you someone who is deeply afraid of losing control of God- Peter Enns

      Comment


      • Geoff:
        I tell you that I have so been cleansed from ALL unrighteousness.

        I have been set free from sin.
        Freed from the PENALTY of sin. (i.e. not guilty)
        Freed from the POWER of sin. (i.e. I no longer sin)
        And freed from the PRESENSE of sin. (i.e. Rather, I know all things work together for good)

        I know you understand what I am saying. But you do not believe me because you have not had the experience of cleansing that I have had. Do you think that a thing is true only if it has happened to you personally?

        If you say you no longer sin you are either a liar, or misguided.
        Really? The Pharisees said the same thing about Jesus that you are saying about me: "Then again called they the man that was blind, and said unto him, Give God the praise: we know that this man is a sinner."

        Did they really know or did they only CLAIM to know?

        John 8:46 Which of you convinceth me of sin?
        And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
        God so sovereignly controls all events, both mental and physical, that we have no choice but to obey Him.

        Comment


        • I dont subscribe to your form of Gnosticism...
          Show me someone who is expressing in anger his views of God, and I will show you someone who is deeply afraid of losing control of God- Peter Enns

          Comment

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