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  • #31
    An excellent paper. And very true. Don't worry about the need for adding the feelings in there. It makes it come to life. And you are very right about the numbers. The names strike to hard, too fast. They will come, and they will come the day these sick individuals who planned this see God. And they will feel the pain 1000 fold that each of the dead felt, for each of the dead.
    "To be a Christian means to forgive the inexcusable, because God has forgiven the inexcusable in you."

    C.S. Lewis

    Comment


    • #32
      You're a very funny person, Saving Grace. You also have a reading comprehension problem.

      Someone mentioned, in a post previous to mine, that they have Arab friends who are being persecuted.

      Now, let's look at your reading comprehension problem. You picked out "your arab friends..." Let's look at the next four words: I feel for them.

      WHOOPS. That was a statement of hatred, wasn't it?

      How about the wording I used next? They're in danger right now from intellectually-challenged redneck dweebs who see only their nationality, and don't care whether they were involved with or supported the tragedy....

      I suggest, Saving Grace, you get off your moral high horse and learn to read. Oh, and while you're at it: Learn the difference between "judging" and "condemning."

      Have I shaken hands with homosexuals? Worked with them? You betcha. And while I was shaking hands, and smiling, and being friendly, I told them that God didn't like what they were doing, that He wanted them in heaven with him, but that they were going to have to accept Christ as their savior and repent first.

      How about you? You man enough to tell people when they're sinning? Or do you promote "there are many different roads to God"?

      Comment


      • #33
        Sorry Don

        Lets see. You said
        Let's look at the next four words: I feel for them.
        But not until AFTER you said
        Isn't that sweet? (tone is sarcastic for those that don't catch it)
        Now please tell me when you decided that you were no longer sarcastic? Because the majority of your post WAS sarcastic, and I had to take THAT as sarcastic too. Remember, feeling change the meanings of sentences, and feelings do NOT come across in the written word unless you STATE your feelings. You stated sarcasm. You never stated you were done using it.

        I suggest, Saving Grace, you get off your moral high horse and learn to read. Oh, and while you're at it: Learn the difference between "judging" and "condemning."
        I know the difference. Most christians don't or when they think they do, they use the term "judging righteously!" as if God gave them special knowledge in judging.

        And you are doing this judging yourself since my post WASN'T an attack on you. I never put you down.

        Have I shaken hands with homosexuals? Worked with them? You betcha. And while I was shaking hands, and smiling, and being friendly, I told them that God didn't like what they were doing, that He wanted them in heaven with him, but that they were going to have to accept Christ as their savior and repent first.
        That's wonderful . But my question was about those you DON'T know about? Are you saying you know the sexual preferences of EVERY person you have ever come in contact with?

        Again, my point was to stand together in unison against those who attacked and killed these people from a cowardly position. I never asked you more.

        How about you? You man enough to tell people when they're sinning? Or do you promote "there are many different roads to God"?
        You really don't know me. I post in many boards. I am called the "bleacher preacher" in one baseball forum because of my use of scripture and telling people when they are acting in an unchristian manner. And if or when you see more of my posts here, you will see I do the same. I am no where near perfect, and I know I have my faults. But one of them usually isn't belittling someone (except when someone calls me on my military background and insults like tralon. To the rest I appologise for having to read what I said to him)

        All I said about you was you hate. This response of yours was full of anger and anger leads to hate. All I ASKED you to do was
        So you hate. Now deny it and see how much better your life can be.
        That wasn't a belittling remark, it was showing that you do hate, just as all of us do. That is part of being human and not being Gods. We have emotions and they sometimes rule us. This was a request to try (just as we all try ) to deny that feeling.
        "To be a Christian means to forgive the inexcusable, because God has forgiven the inexcusable in you."

        C.S. Lewis

        Comment


        • #34
          The problem is...

          The problem is that you refuse to see any other way to God, or even to see that maybe there is no path to God at all. Until you are willing to accept others may think differently, there is no point in you discussing anything on these forums. If you can't even understand how someone would dissagree with you or accept that you might be wrong, you won't discuss anything, just randomly shout out your opinions. That won't change anyone's minds, just affirm your self-righteousness.

          Comment


          • #35
            surreal

            Just wondering who your post is directed at. You didn't state towards whom.

            If it was for me, that's not true about how I am. I sit here and read much more than I post. I see all sides of the issues. There are many many topics here I have read that I haven't formed any conclusions on them, as those who DO know are still talking their sides, and I have alot to learn.

            But of course we all have our opinions. And this forum is a perfect place to post those opinions, many of which get shot down.

            The problem is many do love to shoot down the opinion with personal attacks. That hurts. It should be discussed instead, but too many don't like to do that.

            Anyway, I pray you are having a good day and you and yours are blessed by His light.
            "To be a Christian means to forgive the inexcusable, because God has forgiven the inexcusable in you."

            C.S. Lewis

            Comment


            • #36
              Matt 5:43
              Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
              44
              But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
              45
              That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven
              : for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
              46
              For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
              47
              And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
              48
              Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

              Luke 6:24
              But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation.
              25
              Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep.
              26
              Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.
              27
              But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
              28
              Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.

              29
              And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also.

              30
              Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
              31
              And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
              32
              For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
              33
              And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.

              34
              And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
              35
              But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
              36
              Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
              37
              Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven

              Does "judge not" only apply to those who want to judge YOU? Look at the context here! Jesus is OBVIOUSLY talking about judging and condemning those that you don't really want to forgive, isn't He?

              46
              And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
              47
              Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:
              48
              He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
              49
              But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

              IS JESUS REALLY OUR LORD, OR NOT? WHAT DO WE REALLY TRUST, ANYWAY? The Lord, or our own strength? (We often hear preachers say "you can't do 'it' in your own strength". Is "it" only applicable to walking obediently in some things, or is it applicable to everything we do?

              John 18
              36
              Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

              If Jesus wouldn't let His servants defend HIM with carnal weapons of war (sword, gun, bomb, napalm), how much less worthy is a mere worldly nation of the sacrifice of our bodies? Shall we kill our enemies seeking to secure an earthly nation, and think we are doing God a service? Do we seek a "continuing city" on this earth?

              Hebrews 13:14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

              Heb 11:8
              By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was to go.
              10
              For he looked forward to the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

              13
              These all died in faith, not having received what was promised, but having seen it and greeted it from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.
              14
              For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland.
              15
              If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return.
              16
              But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city.

              Abraham knew the true inheritance is not of this world.


              Matthew 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

              2 Corinthians 10
              3
              For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
              4
              (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal
              , but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds
              5
              Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ


              Matthew 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

              Remember the Crusades? They thought THEY were doing God a service, didn't they? Don't we see their works as those of madmen today? Indeed they were. Let us learn from them, and not repeat such madness.

              Can one love his enemy and KILL him?

              Was Jesus a "gutless pacifist"?

              I think not.

              Were all the martyrs of Jesus throughout the history of the world, who refused to resist their murderers "gutless pacifists"?

              They were TRUE Christians.



              Revelation 22
              14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

              15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

              Comment


              • #37
                Reading comprehension problem still applies, Saving Grace.

                I do not hate anyone. You don't believe that; you don't have to. Like you said, I don't know you; and you don't know me.

                If you did, you'd know that I profess "righteous judgement"...but not to the tune of Enyart and his crowd.

                (For those that are just now figuring it out, yes, I'm that "Don" from some time back, that ticked off a LOT of people...figure that means I'll be banned from this board sometime over the next few days....)

                Saving Grace, your explanation proves the problem with reading comprehension. I suggest that in the future, you read my words for what they say, not what you *think* they're saying. In other words, read them twice.

                Let me simplify one thing for you: We are to judge. In this phrase, Mr. Enyart is correct. However, we are NOT to judge to condemnation (i.e., we are not to condemn). But each time we determine that something is sinful, we have "judged." Each time we tell someone that what they're doing is wrong, we have "judged." And we are supposed to do that!

                What we have to teach people is that the admonition to "judge not" is speaking about hypocrisy.

                Saving Grace, look at my last few lines again: "They're in danger right now from intellectually-challenged redneck dweebs who see only their nationality, and don't care whether they were involved with or supported the tragedy...." That should have put my statement "and as for your arab friends...I feel for them" in context. But you prefer to place the blame on me, and insist that I "hate."

                Should I now make the claim that you "hate" me because of your perception that I'm a "hater"? If I do, I'm using the same criteria that you've used: casual glancing over of your posts, and the way you're railing against me.

                There was no hatred in my post AT ALL. Lots of sarcasm, yes, but compare it to Maranatha's posts, where he apparently endorses nuking the entire Middle East.

                I do not hate anyone, Saving Grace. You don't believe that; and you don't have to. I've said it. Based on what you say about not being able to tell anything about anyone because we're in "print media," you either have to take it at face value, or prove otherwise.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Surreal, you are SO wrong. During my lifetime, I've been a Methodist, a Mormon, an agnostic, and I even delved into karma for a while. And that's just a few of the explorations I've done.

                  I've explored other paths, and whether there's a god or not.

                  THERE IS! AND THERE'S ONLY 1 WAY TO HIM!

                  Jesus Christ said, I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

                  He didn't say "there are many paths, and it doesn't matter which one you take." He didn't say, "Feel free to do whatever YOU think is necessary to get into heaven."

                  There is only 1 way. There is only 1 truth. There is only 1 life. And they are all three the same path.

                  Just something for you to think about. The next time you want to say we don't understand the other point(s) of view, consider that you didn't ask if we understood the other point of view (i.e., you committed the same error you accused us of).

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    D__o__n

                    Reading comprehension problem still applies, Saving Grace.
                    Yes it does Don. It appears you are still reading that my posts were an attack on YOU. So let me say it as clearly as I can. I am NOT attacking DON the PERSON whatever his/her real name is!

                    No if you are talking about MY reading comprehension, since you are having problems with others understanding you, maybe it is writing comprehension that is the problem right now? Are you open to that possibility? That is NOT an attack, but an observation.

                    If you did, you'd know that I profess "righteous judgement"...but not to the tune of Enyart and his crowd.
                    Neither do I

                    (For those that are just now figuring it out, yes, I'm that "Don" from some time back, that ticked off a LOT of people...figure that means I'll be banned from this board sometime over the next few days....)
                    I saw many others get banned after you (I would assume, because I didn't see you get banned but I did see their posts say they were banned). For some reason, just before they get banned, they get called "zadig". I have no idea what the moderators mean by that as I do not find that name in the bible.


                    Saving Grace, your explanation proves the problem with reading comprehension. I suggest that in the future, you read my words for what they say, not what you *think* they're saying. In other words, read them twice.
                    No, actually it doesn't prove that. All it proves is you believe we have a misunderstnding and that you assume it is all on my part and the part of others, and not on the WAY you are presenting your case. As far as reading what one "thinks" someone is saying, aren't you doing the same thing to me?

                    Let me simplify one thing for you: We are to judge
                    That is very simple for you to say. It is NOT simple for you to prove. The only places that appears is in letters to CHURCH LEADERS by Paul to his churches while he was out or in jail. Thye were NOT directed to each and every person in the populace. In fact, until the scripture became available to all, only the church was allowed to judge, and everything they said was "righteous" even when they had the inqusition, the holy wars, the witchhunts, when they had Gallileo arrested, when Copernicus was so afraid that he only stated that the earth revolved around the sun when he was already dying because the church "righteously judged" that anyone claiming that the Earth revolved around the sun was a heretic. Do you need more examples of how great we are at "judging righteously" or even judging correctly? I will leave it to the only one who can actually see all and knows all.

                    What we have to teach people is that the admonition to "judge not" is speaking about hypocrisy.
                    To be a hypocrate is to be a greek actor. That is what a hypocrate was. There is no proof that THAT is what it means. Take the book at face value and not at what you "think" it means just like you admonished me in the first sentence. If I have so much trouble understanding what YOU are saying (and everyone else is too) then how much harder is it for any of us to decide what JESUS said. He never told us to judge. Paul did. Jesus said "only he who sent me can judge" I don't think that was you lol

                    the way you're railing against me.
                    I'm very sure I made that clear that I wasn't. Again, it's that read the words and not what you think is in the words. My words have stated, now for the third time, I am NOT ATTACKING YOU.

                    Lots of sarcasm, yes
                    As you admit there was lot's of sarcasm. My question was when did you stop using the sarcasm. You never stated you were done using it, so I read it the way it was presented,"note the sarcasm". Remember sating that? That is why I took your entire post to be sarcastic. I explained why. Now please explain why you want it to seem I am attacking you?

                    I do not hate anyone, Saving Grace
                    Never said you did. I said you hate. There are many things to hate. I hate the cowardness of this attack. I HATE.I have to try and deny that hate and make it make me stronger in my love. You hate the idea of homosexuality. I am sure there are other things, ideals you hate. It is human. But I didn't say you hate a pearson, just that you hate. To deny that would be to try and place yourself on a higher level than God, since he too has stated his hate.

                    Anyway that was my statement.

                    Again, I pray for all those who have suffered from thsi tragedy and those who will suffer in the reprecussions to come. I pray you understand I am not attacking you. I pray that I will understand you. I finish my prayer asking for the largest understanding of all in understanding the Lord and what He wants from me. Amen.
                    "To be a Christian means to forgive the inexcusable, because God has forgiven the inexcusable in you."

                    C.S. Lewis

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      In a LOT of ways, we're too much alike.

                      The ONLY thing I will address is your statement that we are only told by Paul to judge. I disagree. John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgement.

                      Jesus said that. Why? Because He was telling the Pharisees that they were wrong for telling Him not to do anything on the sabbath. They were judging according to the appearance, and not judging what was actually being done.

                      In Matthew 7, where we are told to "judge not," we are NOT being told to not judge. The phrasing goes like this: "judge not lest ye be judged; for by what measure ye judge, the same shall be meted out." A warning against hypocrisy, pure and simple. The explanation is, don't condemn your neighbor for breaking one of the 600-odd laws when you're breaking about 37 of them yourself.

                      So the question really comes down to: Did Jesus tell us not to judge, or did He tell us to judge? One must reconcile these two passages, and figure how they agree; otherwise, one must conclude that God is contradicting Himself, and is therefore an author of confusion.

                      Care to start a new thread? Or e-mail me so we can discuss this further?

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        The Christian INDIVIDUAL's response to the WTC atrocity is to pray for those who did it (those still alive), that they might be won to Christ's gospel and God's love; to forgive those who sincerely seek forgiveness, and to take prudent but nonviolent measures to protect oneself from future physical danger.

                        The Christian NATION's response (or the response of any nation) should be to rain a hellstorm of fire and death and destruction and pain and horror and unimaginable suffering on anyone connected with the atrocity. To obliterate participants and accessories before and after the fact, and to blast away with skin-flaying force, mercilessly -- for years and years if need be -- at those who might have anything to do with terrorism, either as an individual or as a nation. To reduce to a paste of blood and ash any military or paramilitary structure or body of men that set their faces against us.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          A question for you...

                          Amadis,

                          Eloquent piece, as usual.

                          One question bothers me after reading it though...

                          If a nation is to rain hellish punishment upon the perpetrators of such acts and the Christians are not, who gets the task of reducing the enemy into "a paste of blood and ash"?

                          Do you envision that activity reserved for us non-believers only, or can you Christians participate as well?

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            The American Commercial Airline Industry is currently the single greatest threat to the Nation's Security. That must be properly dealt with so that it is no longer true.

                            We are at war, whether it is against a state, or an individual. The rules of the game have changed. Although we may be the best at the old rules (Cold war, desert storm), there doesn't seem to be anybody playing that way anymore. New rules means we need to learn them and become proficient at them, soon.

                            I think issuing knives to all airline passengers is better than forbidding them, personally. Just try to hijack a plane with anywhere from 50-150 angry, knife-wielding passengers on board, each willing to die for the cause of bringing the plane down in an unhabited area rather than a skyscraper!

                            It's probably not likely that hijacking a passenger airliner and ramming it into buildings is going to work anymore. People no longer naively believe that hijackers are content to take over the plane and ransom the passengers, so they will revolt, and sacrifice themselves. Unfortunately, these "soldiers" will probably continue to try until it definitely doesn't work! (After Tuesday's tremendous success, would you be disheartened if you were one of these Islamic radicals?)

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              D__o__n

                              Jesus said that. Why? Because He was telling the Pharisees that they were wrong for telling Him not to do anything on the sabbath
                              I think you know this, but some may not so I will say it for them. The pharisees were the law holders. They were part of the clergy, the "doctors" of the Jewish Law. The scribes were the "lawyers" of the law. That is who is being told how to "judge".

                              Jesus got very upset a lot at the steadfast holding to the letter of the law instead of the spirit of the law, which is what the "doctors" and "lawyers" of the law of Moses were supposed to be in charge of.

                              So in effect, he still isn't talking to us but to the church heirarchy that was in place at the temple. We also should try to judge rightly (not righteously), which in effect, would curb our condemnation of many things.

                              Care to start a new thread? Or e-mail me so we can discuss this further
                              I would love for this to be a thread that we could talk about without the hate and anger, but I doubt that would happen given the beliefs of the moderators here. Too many individuals have trouble getting rid of their hates and discussing something as important as thiswithout pulling up Pauls preaching and showing why we should hate, judge and attack what we disagree with, and the individuals involved. I have already seen one such thread started in the old forum and the temp forum. Both had the moderators in there quoting Paul and Bob Enyart and getting upset with any that disagreed. That is where I saw a few people banned.

                              So I leave the choice up to you. It you DO start a new thread, please post here as I don't get a lot of time to read ALL the topics, so I may miss it if few people respond and it doesn't make it to the new posts area when I do get on.

                              Bless you again.
                              "To be a Christian means to forgive the inexcusable, because God has forgiven the inexcusable in you."

                              C.S. Lewis

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Amadis
                                The Christian INDIVIDUAL's response to the WTC atrocity is to pray for those who did it (those still alive), that they might be won to Christ's gospel and God's love; to forgive those who sincerely seek forgiveness, and to take prudent but nonviolent measures to protect oneself from future physical danger.

                                The Christian NATION's response (or the response of any nation) should be to rain a hellstorm of fire and death and destruction and pain and horror and unimaginable suffering on anyone connected with the atrocity. To obliterate participants and accessories before and after the fact, and to blast away with skin-flaying force, mercilessly -- for years and years if need be -- at those who might have anything to do with terrorism, either as an individual or as a nation. To reduce to a paste of blood and ash any military or paramilitary structure or body of men that set their faces against us.
                                I am confused now. Where is the Christian nation? Isn't it made up of Christian individuals where ever it is? So how can it do opposites? Or should they pray for them as they are dropping hellfire on thier heads?

                                Should we warn them so the innocents can leave first? Or do we kill the innocents with their leaders? Do we KNOW for a fact that not one christian is living there so we won't be doing the same as they did to us?

                                I noticed your last line. Any military or paramilitary structure or body of men (and women too I presume) that set their faces against us .

                                Hmmmm so if they don't like the way we did something, blow them away too?

                                I am glad I am a christian individual, but I am even MORE happy I am not a citizen of this christian nation you mention. I don't think I could stand to look at a person suffering the agonies you have described, and because I couldn't watch from up close an personal, then I couldn't order that done either. I am a firm believer of "If I won't do it myself, I sure won't order someone else to do it."

                                should be to rain a hellstorm of fire and death and destruction and pain and horror and unimaginable suffering on anyone connected with the atrocity. To obliterate participants and accessories before and after the fact, and to blast away with skin-flaying force, mercilessly -- for years and years if need be -- at those who might have anything to do with terrorism, either as an individual or as a nation. To reduce to a paste of blood and ash
                                Could you HONESTLY say you could stand there and WATCH them feel this to MIILIONS of individuals? If YOU can't then YOU shouldn't ask for it. If you CAN, then you missed your calling. They needed you in Germany from 1930-1945.
                                "To be a Christian means to forgive the inexcusable, because God has forgiven the inexcusable in you."

                                C.S. Lewis

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