The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

[agape]

It is only God who can save and only the Holy Spirit who can put anyone into Christ. In Rom. 6:3,4 we are told that those who have been baptized into Christ (by the Holy Spirit) have been baptized into His death. It is in His death that we died to sin (verse 2). Since we died with Him we were also buried with Him by means of that baptism into His death; buried, not in water but in His tomb. And when He arose we arose with Him to new life.

This is not symbolic language for water could never symbolize crucifixion, burial in a rock tomb or resurrection to new life. This is all a Spiritual reality which we are to reckon true by faith. This baptism into Christ transforms the life and breaks the power of the sin nature. Could water ever do this? Only God can, and God did, by making us one with Christ through this divine baptism.

This divine baptism, then, presents a spiritual obligation. Because we have been baptized into Christ and thus have died to sin and are now alive unto God, we are commanded to “reckon” ourselves “to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord” (Rom. 6:11). Our baptism into Christ is the only true basis for Christian living. We died to sin only in Him and are alive spiritually only in Him. Put water here and we miss the whole lesson God would teach us...we miss the power to live pleasing to Him!

 

[rapt]

Gentiles enter the Kingdom of God by faith in the gospel of God and of Christ

Gentiles enter the Kingdom of God by faith in the gospel of God and of Christ

Agape:

To be baptized in someone's name sets a person apart from the masses.
So it can be seen that water baptism was indeed instituted by God, but only for Israel and the kingdom, and then for only a limited period of time.
If people still desire to stay under the law of the old covernant and be water baptized, then so be it.

Well, people still today believe the gospel of Jesus Christ, both Jews and gentiles, and praise God! ...some still even OBEY it! And they still get baptized in water, just as Christ had commanded his disciples to go into ALL THE WORLD to do, (it's not for the Jew only) since the gospel of Christ NEVER CHANGED. Halleluyah! And the gentiles are now entering the kingdom of God regardless of the doctrine of men that endeavors to hinder and rob them of it! Thank you Jesus!

Lk 11:52
Jn 3:3,5

 

[agape]

rapt,

Well, people still today believe the gospel of Jesus Christ, both Jews and gentiles, and praise God! ...some still even OBEY it! And they still get baptized in water, just as Christ had commanded his disciples to go into ALL THE WORLD to do, (it's not for the Jew only) since the gospel of Christ NEVER CHANGED. Halleluyah! And the gentiles are now entering the kingdom of God regardless of the doctrine of men that endeavors to hinder and rob them of it! Thank you Jesus!

Matthew 28:19:
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

This verse was spoken shortly before Jesus ascended into heaven; it gave last minute instructions. Jesus Christ fulfilled all the law, he suffered, was crucified and died for our sins. He was raised from the dead, and now he is about to ascend unto His Father. Do you mean to say after all that he did and went through for the "remission of our sins" he instructed them to baptize with water (the same physical element used by John...under the law, old covenant...and which was utilized before Jesus Christ himself fully redeemed mankind) when it would be available for them to be baptized in Christ, which is to be born again of God's Spirit??

Was Jesus Christ confused when he stated what is written according to Acts 1:4-5?

"And being assembled together with them [the apostles], [Jesus Christ] commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father [on the day of Pentecost], which, saith he, ye have heard of me."

For John truly baptized with water; but {CONTRAST] ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence."

What part of "BUT YE SHALL BE BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST... PNEUMA HAGION....GIFT OF HOLY SPIRIT...THE PROMISE OF THE FATHER...POWER FROM ON HIGH" DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND?

With the coming of the greater (holy spirit) the lesser (water) came to an end (Praise God). This replacement was initiated on Pentecost. On Pentecost the replacement first applied.

Galatians 3:27, 28:
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Being baptized into the body of Christ does not mean baptized with the old physical element of water, but with the new spiritual element of holy spirit. Baptized into Christ can only be accomplished with holy spirit. God in Christ in us. If we need water to do this, then Jesus Christ is not sufficient enough as our complete Lord and Savior. I doubt very much he needs the aid of water when his blood TOTALLY cleansed us from our sins.

We need to honestly do II Timothy 2:15 and stop taking verses of scripture out of context and haphazardly scatter them all over the place.

I mentioned in my post that if one desires to be water baptized no one should forbid him. However, his water baptism would only be a display or public declaration of his faith in Jesus Christ. His salvation is only through the accomplished and finished works of Jesus Christ.

Lk 11:52; John 3:3,5

Luke 11:52:
Woe unto you, lawyers! [pertaining to the law] for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

How dare you loosely and unjustifiably accuse me of Luke 11:52 just because I do not agree with your doctrine or belief.

You left out the context of that chapter:

Luke 11:46-54:
And he said, Woe unto you also, [ye] lawyers [pertaining to the law]! for ye lade men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers.

Woe unto you! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and your fathers killed them.

Truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and ye build their sepulchres.

Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and [some] of them they shall slay and persecute:

That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.

Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

And as he said these things unto them, the scribes and the Pharisees began to urge [him] vehemently, and to provoke him to speak of many things:

Laying wait for him, and seeking to catch something out of his mouth, that they might accuse him.

Boy are you ever way out of line!
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John 3:3-6:
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Here's a prime example of taking scripture out of context and privately interpreting it to fit one's belief.

"Except a man be born of water AND of the Spirit..." means except a man be born first of flesh (in the womb...water) and of the spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." Jesus states and confirms this in verse 6; "That which is born of the FLESH is FLESH, and that which is born of the SPIRIT IS SPIRIT." Nicodemus at least understood that part of it when he said; "can he enter the SECOND time into his mother's womb and be born (again)?

It is clearly seen from these verses that Jesus Christ was NOT talking about "water baptism."

Verse 7:
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

How does one get born again?

Romans 10:9-10:
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

(Our true confession or declaration of our faith in God and His Son, Jesus Christ is with our mouth...not water...by which confession is made unto salvation).

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

There is no mention of "and shalt be baptized by water" in the above verses. So, let's not put them there.

I will mention this again; if one needs to be baptized because of his or her believing, or to publicly declare one's faith in Christ, then by all means be baptized in water. However, to teach that water baptism is necessary for salvation is not in accordance with the truth and accuracy of God's rightly-divided Word. The blood of Jesus Christ alone totally and completely cleansed us of our sins. He paid the full price or penalty for our sins because obviously, water baptism could not accomplish this. Through his death and resurrection, we received holy spirit, the new birth...God's righteous nature is now our new nature and we have the promise of eternal life.

God bless you,
Agape

 

[Ian Day]

One Gospel, not two !

One Gospel, not two !

Hope, & all two gospels, "Gospel of the Kingdom, Dispensation of Grace" folk,

I think it was Hope who quoted:
Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. Matt. 21:43 (KJV)

Our Lord makes it clear in this Scripture passage that the Kingdom is for the Gentiles. Note also:

Act 1:3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

THe "two gospel" doctrine in plainly false.

[Hope]
If Peter was against His death it simply does not make sense for him to have understood Isaiah 53.

As for proving that Peter did not believe Isaiah 53 when he preached under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, having been baptized with the Holy Spirit that day by showing that before the crucifixion Peter rejected the idea that his Master should be betrayed & killed:
Our Lord carefully explained after his resurrection:

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

How dare you say that they still did not understand, when Scripture records that the Lord Jesus opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures.

May I suggest that it was not Peter who did not understand the Scriptures, but YOU.

I will add that Acts was written by Luke, who was converted under Paul's preaching, after Paul's New Covenant, Gospel of Grace Theology had become public knowledge, even to Peter. In his letters there is no suggestion that Peter acknowledges any mistake or misunderstanding in his Gospel message. ANd we find there the same Everlasting Gospel.

Agape, please note:

What is recorded in Acts is the way Christ's command to the Apostles was OBEYED, not disorted, or misunderstood.

Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Therefore Peter preached the death & resurrection of Christ, and his ascension to the throne of David.

THerefore Peter preached "repent & be baptised in the Name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

THerefore Peter commanded baptism, which is the New Covenant sign of the blood of the Everlasting Covenant, the blood of Christ.

Hebr 9:10 ... divers BAPTISMS, and carnal ordinances, imposed [on them] until the time of reformation.
11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us].
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new Covenant, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first Covenant, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament [is], there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament [is] of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
18 Whereupon neither the first [Covenant] was dedicated without blood.
19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
20 Saying, This [is] the blood of the Covenant which God hath enjoined unto you.

Who above all people needed their conscience purged, but those who had denied their Messiah ?
THey had rashly said, "his blood be on us, and on our children."
And the Lord's wonderful reply was, "the promise is to you and to your children." He gaciously adds, "and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call. " The Gentiles are counted in to that glorious promises.

What a wonderful God we serve ! Don't distort his gracious Word.

 

[Ian Day]

Agape, Hope,

Why do you go to such extreeeeme leeeeeenghts to prove that the command of CHrist should not be obeyed ????????????????

[Agape]
Matthew 28:19:
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

This verse was spoken shortly before Jesus ascended into heaven; it gave last minute instructions.

Jesus Christ fulfilled all the law, he suffered, was crucified and died for our sins. He was raised from the dead, and now he is about to ascend unto His Father.

Do you mean to say after all that he did and went through for the "remission of our sins" he instructed them to baptize with water (the same physical element used by John...under the law, old covenant...and which was utilized before Jesus Christ himself fully redeemed mankind) when it would be available for them to be baptized in Christ, which is to be born again of God's Spirit??

Was Jesus Christ confused when he stated what is written according to Acts 1:4-5?

"And being assembled together with them [the apostles], [Jesus Christ] commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father [on the day of Pentecost], which, saith he, ye have heard of me."

For John truly baptized with water; but {CONTRAST] ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence."

If I understand you, you are saying that when our Lord commanded:
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.

that he was commanding them to baptize, NOT with water but with the Holy Spirit????

How did the Apostles baptise with the Holy Spirit ???? THey cannot. THat is the work of Christ himself. THey could only teach, and baptise those who believed.

What did they understand the Lord meant by the command ?? What they did in Acts 2. Preach the crucified & risen Christ, and they commanded repentance & baptism.

Our Lord had taught them in detail after his resurrection. He'd promised that the Holy SPirit would lead them into ALL things.

Did the Apostles misunderstand, under the direct guidance of the Lord, and under the power of the Holy Spirit ???? I think not.

Did they so misunderstand the Word of their Lord, that they still taught Old Covenant ritual????? I think not.

Baptism in water is a New COvenant sign of the applied blood of the sacrifice of Christ. True cleansing, which does not leave us besmurched with ashes or blood.

And baptism in water is for those who have received the true baptism with the Holy Spirit into CHrist. It does not save, and the Holy SPirit is not given by water baptism. But it speaks to the believer of the cleansing blood, and of the new life given by baptism with the Holy Spirit.

It is a sign both to the believer of all that CHrist has done for him, and to the church of the submission of the believer to Christ, and membership of the Church, the body of Christ. That the new believer in Christ is prepared to be identified with the One just disowned, rejected & crucified, believing HE IS RISEN !!!
Acts 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

 

[HopeofGlory]

The need for a blood sacrifice for sin is the great theme of scripture but the blood of bulls and goats was a mere shadow that could not take away sin. What we must recognize is the vast difference between the blood offering of bulls and goats (law) and the precious blood of the lamb of God (grace). The apostles remained jealous of the law (works) after the cross even up to the Jerusalem council (Acts 21:20). Paul’s epistles clearly reveal the law was an offence to the cross (Roms. 5:19-20) and it was the most important message second only to the cross which done away with the law. The line of opposition was clear, it was the law against the cross therefore the "promise" was not received at Pentecost as Peter confirms with these words ....The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance (2 Pet. 3:9). The factual evidence within the word of God can not be denied and we are instructed to rightly divide the word.

Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. John 6:53 (KJV)
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:54 (KJV)

This statement by our Lord to the apostles offended them and their reply was "who can hear (believe) it" for they did not discern the Lord‘s body! The law taught that it was an offense to consume blood and we have to understand that Jesus knew the apostles would refuse it and yet the offer had to be made...to the Jew first! The law of works ran through their veins and was the center of their very being and it could not be denied.

Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: Rom. 5:20 (KJV)

The "new" testament was being delivered to them and it was to be received by the spirit (faith) and was beyond the apostles comprehension and yet it would fulfill the prophetic words of Christ...The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof (Matt. 21:43). This nation is the Gentiles and the new testament would be delivered to them by Paul (Rom. 3:25). The training up of Paul would be as the apostles and was progressive but this training up would be accomplished by the Spirit of Christ and began with his conversion on Damascus road when his name was Saul. After Paul’s conversion we see a progressive change in the message and Paul will participate in the old message until he has progressively received the “mystery” revelations from Christ (Gals. 1:11-12) and at one point Paul was even caught up into heaven (2 Cor. 12:14). Ananias was the one that instructed Paul to be water baptized for remission of sins after the cross and he was.... A DEVOUT MAN ACCORDING TO THE LAW Acts 22:12 (KJV). Paul did baptize some but scripture testifies that at a later date Christ sent him to the gentiles and was instructed "not to baptize"(1Cor 1:17). Why did Paul go against the great commission? It is because Paul received progressive revelations of a greater witness (John 5:36) that was of God. Water baptism in the dispensation of it's inception through obedience (works) "gave remission of sins" and it can not be argued unless you choose to go against the word of God. The message was one that not only had to be obeyed but it also demanded endurance to the end (works) to receive that remission. Paul now understands by progressive revelation that message is no longer effectual for remission of sins and has been superceded by the greater witness of God at the cross.

I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 1 Cor. 1:14 (KJV)

The Gentiles freely received the word of faith in the new testament and not of works for they were not of the law and were without the offense (Acts 13:39-46).



It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63 (KJV)

Many do not understand these words of Christ Jesus and believe there is profit in their flesh. Christ is speaking of eternal life and how it is received and explaining it would not be possible of the flesh. The apostles were jealous of the law (works of the flesh) and refused this Spiritual offer of eternal life as many continue to do today. Spiritual things are not understood by those who believe eternal life can be attained by their obedience in the flesh.

And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; Matt. 26:27 (KJV)
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Matt. 26:28 (KJV)

They did not understand the death of Christ as I have shown. At Pentecost they were broken hearted at the fact their Messiah was dead and there was no rejoicing in His blood in that it gave them eternal life. I have clearly shown the apostles did not make the connection with His death for remission of their sins but they were "saved" in obedience to water baptism.

Baptism is a part of the gospel but (on the contrary) it is of God (Spiritual) not man (in water). This contrast is evident in scripture.

I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Matt. 3:11 (KJV)

This verse when considered in the light of water baptism was for "remission of sins" we can easily see that Christ will "replace" that message with His death at the cross for forgiveness of sins. When accepted by faith His substitutionary death for remission of sin...by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body 1 Cor. 12:13 (KJV). Christ our Saviour is that body and that Spirit!

We cannot assume a message is understood without scriptural "proof" and we certainly cannot "add" to the message what is not there for that truly is foolishness. Christ offered eternal life in this blood (John 6:54) to the apostles and it is verified with scripture that it was not understood. Their response was "who can here (believe) it" (John 6:60). It is clear the Pentecostal message does not contain the shed blood of Christ for remission of sins.

"His blood be on us" in that they had crucified the Messiah is a far cry from His blood has given eternal life to all who believe.

It was preached that Christ died and rose again but it was not revealed that it was the power of God unto salvation but was reveal by Paul in this dispensation of grace.

Some would have us believe the preaching of the gospel is not limited to the written text and because a certain message is not record at Pentecost does not prove that message was not preached.

The written text is the gospel and there is no other and we are commanded not to"add" to the word. God has given explicit instructions on that subject!

The new testament is written with the blood of Christ for remission of sins (Matt. 26:28). Jesus explained that it could not be receive by the flesh but was to be received by the spirit...It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life John 6:63 (KJV). This is so simple and yet so hard for many to understand that it is by faith and not by works of the flesh. Faith in works is not faith in Christ and the two are not to be confused. The testament indeed was "new" and it supercedes any and all testaments before it. This "new" testament was not believed by the apostles and thus we do not see it revealed by them at Pentecost. The first to reveal this "new" testament "faith in His blood" for remission of sins was Paul (Rom. 3:25). We can not avoid the truth of the matter which the apostles did not understand that this new testament for remission of sins (Matt. 26:28) superceded the old testament for remission of sins which was water baptism (Acts 2:38).

Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad. Matt. 26:31 (KJV)

The offense of the cross is seen in the "works of the flesh" and they deny the power of God unto salvation contained in the “new“ testament for remission of sins.

For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. Rom. 7:5 (KJV)
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. Rom. 7:6 (KJV)

We must defend the words of Jesus and not the actions and words of the apostles because it is clear the apostles did not discern the body of Christ!

Paul had this to say:
If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: Eph. 3:2 (KJV)
How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Eph. 3:3 (KJV)
Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Eph. 3:4 (KJV)
Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit Eph. 3:5 (KJV)

It says "now" revealed and by who? It says "my knowledge" (Paul's)! By what means? A "mystery" that is "now" revealed!

Paul was the first to reveal the "new" testament in the blood of Christ for remission of sins and it is clear and to the point for all who have ears to hear.

Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; Rom. 3:25 (KJV)
To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Rom. 3:26 (KJV)
Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Rom. 3:27 (KJV)
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Rom. 3:28 (KJV)

 

[Ian Day]

Wongly dividing the Word of Truth !

Wongly dividing the Word of Truth !

Hope,

You make a lot of extraordinary statements, but I can agree with one:

[1Way]
The factual evidence within the word of God can not be denied and we are instructed to rightly divide the word.

Please prove that the Apostles did not understand the teaching of Christ using Scriptures AFTER the the risen Christ taught them. Quoting John 6 does not prove that they still did not understand in Acts 2, after the risen Lord Jesus had instructed them, & after the Holy Spirit was poured out on them.

Quoting 2 Peter 3 hardly proves that Peter did not understand Paul, unless you believe that Peter himself was unlearned and unstable and misused the Scriptures to his own destruction.

[1Way]
The "new" testament was being delivered to them [the Apostles] and it was to be received by the spirit (faith) and was beyond the apostles comprehension.

I am sorry for the Apostles. And for the Lord Jesus. He chose them specifically to teach them the great truths of the New Covenant Gospel of grace. He shared with them the bread & wine of the Last Supper, sharing with them the typical cup of the New Covenant in his blood. He commissioned them to take the Gospel to all the world, and poured out the Holy Spirit on them, to empower them and lead them into all truth.

And they failed.

The "New Wine" burst the "Old Bottles" mistakenly chosen by the Eternal Son of God.

The question is: Did the Apostles fail to comprehend the teaching personally taught them by the Lord Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit of God, or has 1Way failed to comprehend ?????

 

[JustAChristian]

Are there one or trwo baptism?

Are there one or trwo baptism?

BAPTISM: OUT WITH THE OLD - IN WITH THE NEW

Water baptism is not essential to salvation as so many Christians today believe and teach. How do we know? We know because the Bible tells us so. The Word of God makes it very clear that we are to be baptized; HOWEVER, God purposely informs us that we, since the day of Pentecost, are to be baptized with holy spirit.

Do we have Holy Spirit baptism today? Do we have water baptism today? When Paul wrote the Ephesians, he said there was (is) one baptism (Eph 4:5). Now this is fact. It was written by an apostle of God who did water baptism. Would Jesus approve of such a statement from Paul (1 Cor 14:37). Peter says the same thing essentially (1 Peter 3:19-21). Paul was cleansed through water baptism (Acts 22:16). Believing that water baptism and obeying it is faith in action (Romans 1:5). Than is the real faith!!

JustAChristian

 

[JustAChristian]

How Many Baptisms?

How Many Baptisms?

One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism (Eph. 4:5). Paul only wrote about what Christ told him to write (1 Cor 14:37). He practiced only one baptism (Acts 19:1-6). The gifts of the Holy Spirit came after water baptism. The salvation of the soul comes today after water baptism (Mark 16:16).

JustAChristian

 

[HopeofGlory]

Ian,

You asked:
Why do you go to such extreeeeme leeeeeenghts to prove that the command of CHrist should not be obeyed ????????????????

Reply:
If we read Romans 5 we can see how we are baptized into his death and the contrast of the old testament of obedience as compared to the new testament of obedience. You say it is by our obeying in water baptism but this is not what Paul said.

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: Rom. 5:1 (KJV)
By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Rom. 5:2 (KJV)

Faith is required not water baptism obedience which is a "work" of the flesh. If a work is required then salvation must be earned.

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. Rom. 5:9 (KJV)

We are justified by His blood in the new testament and the only way that can be received is by faith.

But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. Rom. 5:15 (KJV)

We can not add to the finished work of Christ and this "gift" must be received "freely" or it is no longer a gift.

For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Rom. 5:19 (KJV)

The contrast is clearly defined when compared with...And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him. Acts 5:32 (KJV)

It is not "our" obedience but by the obedience of "one" so that the gift may be "free".

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Rom. 6:3 (KJV)

Note the contrast! It says baptized "into Jesus" as compared to "into water". How are we to get into Jesus?..."For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body"...and it is the "one" baptism for us today.

Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Rom. 6:4 (KJV)

Here it says "into death" not "water" . In other words when we are baptized by the Spirit we are in His body and we died with Him and it is received through "faith" freely by the obedience of one.

Know ye not that the "new" testament baptism is "into his death" and should not be confused with the "old" testament baptism that was "into water".

 

[Ian Day]

Hope,

I follow your logic, which is a logical explanation of why you reject the command of the Lord. You have obviously misunderstood my position. Water baptism (like communion) is a New Covenant sign, not a saving work or work of the flesh.

Please answer these simple questions: (my answers from above are included)

1. How did the Apostles baptise with the Holy Spirit ???? THey cannot. THat is the work of Christ himself. THey could only teach, and baptise those who believed.

2. What did they understand the Lord meant by the command of the great commission ?? What they did in Acts 2. Preach the crucified & risen Christ, and they commanded repentance & baptism.

3. Our Lord had taught them in detail after his resurrection. He'd promised that the Holy SPirit would lead them into ALL things. Did the Apostles misunderstand, under the direct guidance of the Lord, and under the power of the Holy Spirit ???? I think not.

4. Did they so misunderstand the Word of their Lord, that they still taught Old Covenant ritual????? I think not.

 

[HopeofGlory]

Ian,

You said:
I follow your logic, which is a logical explanation of why you reject the command of the Lord. You have obviously misunderstood my position. Water baptism (like communion) is a New Covenant sign, not a saving work or work of the flesh.

Reply:
I am glad you see the logic but it is not mine but it is the inspired word of God in reference to the "new" testament. This truth being not understood has cause many to add water baptism, as they do to Roms.5, to the finished work of Christ. If we say one MUST be water baptized to be saved then it is clearly an offence to the cross.

Water baptism is a old covenant sign...For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 1 Cor. 1:22 (KJV)
But (note the contrast) we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 1 Cor. 1:23
Signs were nothing more than a shadow of things to come and are no longer needed after Christ (THE REAL THING) suffered and shed His blood for our sins. Praise God!!!!!!!!

You asked:
Please answer these simple questions: (my answers from above are included)

1. How did the Apostles baptise with the Holy Spirit ???? THey cannot. THat is the work of Christ himself. THey could only teach, and baptise those who believed.

Reply:
This is a foolish question as you have indicated! The point agape is making is not hard to understand. Let's look at each account before Christ ascended and not "add" water.

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Matt. 28:19 (KJV)

It is clear the apostles are being instructed to teach and the teaching of the word will baptize them.

And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. Mark 16:15 (KJV)
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mark 16:16 (KJV)

Again, the teaching but also one must believe and will be baptized. This baptism is received when one believes the word.

And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: Luke 24:46 (KJV)
And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. Luke 24:47 (KJV)

The death of Christ for remission of sins is the word of the "new" testament and it must be believed.

For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Acts 1:5 (KJV)

Christ speaks of the contrast of the two baptisms and confirms it will not be in water BUT Spirit! Jesus instructed the apostles in the "new" testament for remission of sins but because of their unbelief they taught the "old" testament of water baptism for remission of sins.

You asked:
2. What did they understand the Lord meant by the command of the great commission ?? What they did in Acts 2. Preach the crucified & risen Christ, and they commanded repentance & baptism.

Reply:
The Lord meant "Spirit baptism" not "water" baptism! They taught water baptism for remission of sins even though they were instructed with these words...For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Matt. 26:28 (KJV)

You asked:
3. Our Lord had taught them in detail after his resurrection. He'd promised that the Holy SPirit would lead them into ALL things. Did the Apostles misunderstand, under the direct guidance of the Lord, and under the power of the Holy Spirit ???? I think not.

Reply:
It cannot be said that very word the apostles spoke was Spirit inspired truth but it can be said that very word of Christ is the gospel.

You asked:
4. Did they so misunderstand the Word of their Lord, that they still taught Old Covenant ritual????? I think not.

Reply:
Yes it can be and not only that but it can be back up with the word of God when we believe these scriptures...

If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. 1 John 5:9 (KJV)

But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. John 5:36 (KJV)

 

[rapt]

Agape:

Do you mean to say after all that he did and went through for the "remission of our sins" he instructed them to baptize with water (the same physical element used by John...under the law, old covenant...and which was utilized before Jesus Christ himself fully redeemed mankind) when it would be available for them to be baptized in Christ, which is to be born again of God's Spirit??

Ab-so-lutely!

John 3
3
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4
Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
10
Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11
Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.


Mark 16
16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

One is not born again until he is born of both water AND of the Spirit. (Believe AND be baptized in water to be saved. Only one of either won't do it.)

With the coming of the greater (holy spirit) the lesser (water) came to an end (Praise God). This replacement was initiated on Pentecost. On Pentecost the replacement first applied.

So you deny that anyone got baptized in water on the day of Pentacost, and claim that it was only the baptism of the Holy Spirit that was done there, or ever again afterward?

Then what baptism had Simon and others in Samaria received in Acts 8 AFTER Pentacost? It says that both he and others had been baptized into Christ, but that none of them had yet even received the baptizm of the Holy Ghost. It wasn't until Peter and John were sent from Jerusalem and laid hands on them that they received the Holy Spirit:

Acts 8:12
But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

(Notice, too, btw, that Philip was preaching to people in SAMARIA [whom the Jews HATED] the gospel of the KINGDOM)


13
Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
14
Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15
Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16
(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17
Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

These had already been baptized IN WATER in the name of Jesus Christ by Phillip. (That wasn't "John's baptism", that was the baptism Jesus had commanded to take into all the world: IN HIS name. John the Baptist never baptized in Christ's name.)


Later in the same chapter, after Peter and John returned to Jerusalem from Samaria, we read about what the angel of the Lord sent Phillip to do:

26
And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert.
27
And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,
28
Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.
29
Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.
30
And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
31
And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
32
The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
33
In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.
34
And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
35
Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
36
And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37
And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
38
And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
39
And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

Wow, because he explained Is 53 to him, Philips' gospel caused the eunich to believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that He was who died for our sins! So why did Philip baptize him in WATER then?? Now remember, all this was done BY THE LEADING OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD after Pentacost! We don't see the Spirit reproving Phillip for baptizing the eunich in water, do we? He doesn't get rebuked for preaching the things concerning the kingdom to non-Jews in this chapter either, does he?

So it's perfectly clear from scripture that the only valid gospel still includes water baptism. The eunich was an Ethiopian, too, and Philip preached the gospel of the KINGDOM, so it's also clearh that there are NOT two different gospels, either.


Which gospel do you suppose Philip preached to him? Was it John's gospel? Do you see the word "crucified" anywhere? How about "circumcision"? Do you assume that he did not preach Christ crucified, since you can't find the word "crucified" in the text? We know Philip baptized him in water, but we don't read of any circucision taking place or preached, do we?

Hmmm.


If that's what you think, that Philip preached a gospel that commanded circumcison and/or keeping the law of Moses, go back and read it again. He preached from Isaiah 53, which PROPHECIED the death of Christ! It PROPHECIED that Christ would die for our sins, didn't it? Do you deny that that is what Philip was explaining to the eunich? If so, what gospel did Philip teach the eunich, all ye that suppose that water baptism was already done away, and was confined to the old testament?


Philip preached the GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD, which IS the gospel of Christ,
the gospel of grace,
Paul's gospel,
the gospel of the circumcision,
the gospel of the uncircumsion,
the everlasting gospel,
the ONLY GOSPEL that gives life,
and the eunich became part of the body of Christ and entered into the Kingdom of Christ and of God BY FAITH.


It never said a word about circumcision, a Jewish kingdom, or keeping the OT laws, did it?


It's that simple.


...but you've greatly complicated it:

Being baptized into the body of Christ does not mean baptized with the old physical element of water, but with the new spiritual element of holy spirit. Baptized into Christ can only be accomplished with holy spirit. God in Christ in us. If we need water to do this, then Jesus Christ is not sufficient enough as our complete Lord and Savior.

God only gives the Holy Ghost TO THEM THAT OBEY HIM (Acts 5:32). If we suppose that we can receive the Holy Ghost any other way, like by ignoring Christ's commandment to be baptized in water, then we are only deceiving ourselves.

Some try to hide their disobedience by claiming that if they have to obey Christ that He's "not sufficient" enough as our complete Lord and Saviour. It's THEM that aren't complete in Him if they refuse to obey his commandments. Scripture calls them LIARS who say they know him but don't keep his commandments; they don't have Christ (the truth) in them:

1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Remember Naman, who thought it silly to go dip in Jordan? Such a simple command, wasn't it? It may have seemed silly to him, but that was what he was commanded to do to be cleansed of his leprosy, and that was what he HAD to do whether he liked it or not. His expectation was not in line with what he was commanded, but neither his expectation nor his anger because he didn't get what he expected from Elijah could get him healed, could they?

Nope, he had to OBEY if he wanted cleansed, and WHEN he OBEYED, he was healed.


We will either humble ourselves and obey God and do things His way, or we will remain in our sins, decieving ourselves with our empty, worthless "faith", lacking obedience to the works God has commanded us, and we will get nowhere, certainly not saved. Whoever doesn't deny himself and forsake all of own his vain ideas so he can obey God CANNOT be Christ's disciple (Lk 9:23,24; 2Tim 2:11,12). Without true faith (the faith described in scripture), it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God and enter into the Kingdom. One remains in the kingdom of darkness who clings to his own vain, dead faith; he worships God in vain. That kind of faith has got to die before Christ can live in us.

Rom 6:3
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17
But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.


Acts 8:35
Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture (Isaiah 53), and preached unto him Jesus.
36
And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

(We see CLEARLY from these scriptures in Acts 8 alone that the gospel of Jesus Christ INCLUDED water baptism AFTER Pentacost!)

37
And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Acts 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

Acts 10
47
Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Acts 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.

He's is MORE UNREFUTABLE PROOF that water baptism was still practiced after Pentacost: EVEN COMMANDED BY THE APOSTLES. Who is he that dares to contradict Christ's and the Apostle's doctrine? Rev 22:18,19; 1Tim 6:3-5; 2Tim 4:3,4; 1Tim 4:1,2; Rom 16:17,18; Isaiah 8:20; 2Pet 2; Jude May God have mercy on the man who adds to or takes from God's Word, and convince him of the truth before he stands before Him in judgment.

 

[Ian Day]

Wrongly dividing the Word of Truth!

Wrongly dividing the Word of Truth!

Hope, Agape,

My replies in bold

(I've deleted some to avoid undue length)
Ian:
I follow your logic, which is a logical explanation of why you reject the command of the Lord. You have obviously misunderstood my position. Water baptism (like communion) is a New Covenant sign, not a saving work or work of the flesh.

Hope:
Water baptism is a old covenant sign...For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 1 Cor. 1:22 (KJV)
But (note the contrast) we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 1 Cor. 1:23
Signs were nothing more than a shadow of things to come and are no longer needed after Christ (THE REAL THING) suffered and shed His blood for our sins. Praise God!!!!!!!!

Water baptism is NOT an Old Covenant sign. THe "various baptisms" of Hebrews 9 included ashes & blood. These were God-given, like circumcision. God carefully taught that heart circumcision was required. They did not argue that because true circumcision was of the heart, that the physical act was NOT required. Look up the "circumcision Scriptures & you will see what I mean.

The (sprinkled) water of baptism is (inter alia) a God-given sign of the sprinkled blood of Christ. (Heb. 9:13-14, 1 Peter 1:2) It is also a sign of the gift of the Holy Spirit, & of death to sin & new life in Christ.

THe sign of baptism is NOT the sign the Jews required. They had that & rejected it. THe Lord did many signs, and the rejected both them & him.

This beginning of the signs did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested his glory, and his disciples believed in him;


Ian:
1. How did the Apostles baptise with the Holy Spirit ?

Hope:
This is a foolish question as you have indicated! The death of Christ for remission of sins is the word of the "new" testament and it must be believed.

For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Acts 1:5 (KJV)

Christ speaks of the contrast of the two baptisms and confirms it will not be in water BUT Spirit! Jesus instructed the apostles in the "new" testament for remission of sins but because of their unbelief they taught the "old" testament of water baptism for remission of sins.

Certainly saving baptism is into Christ, by the Holy Spirit. The fact that a sign has significance does not mean that the sign is superfluous.

Ian:
2. What did they understand the Lord meant by the command of the great commission ?? What they did in Acts 2. Preach the crucified & risen Christ, and they commanded repentance & baptism.

Hope:
The Lord meant "Spirit baptism" not "water" baptism! They taught water baptism for remission of sins even though they were instructed with these words...For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Matt. 26:28 (KJV)

Your answer to my question is in the middle of your paragraph:
They taught water baptism for remission of sins. That is only a partial answer, for the preached the crucified & risen Christ, and they commanded repentance & baptism.


Ian:
3. Our Lord had taught them in detail after his resurrection. He'd promised that the Holy SPirit would lead them into ALL things. Did the Apostles misunderstand, under the direct guidance of the Lord, and under the power of the Holy Spirit ???? I think not.

Hope:
It cannot be said that very word the apostles spoke was Spirit inspired truth but it can be said that very word of Christ is the gospel.

At last we have what you realy believe. You reject the Word of God preached by the Apostles. Do you also reject the Holy Spirit inspired Gospels? And the Spirit inspired letters of Peter & Paul & the others? How do we know what is truth?


Ian:
4. Did they so misunderstand the Word of their Lord, that they still taught Old Covenant ritual?

Hope:
Yes it can be and not only that but it can be back up with the word of God when we believe these scriptures...

If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. 1 John 5:9 (KJV)

But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. John 5:36

While water baptism has its basis in the Old Covenant Scriptures (as Heb. 9 explains) it is a New COvenant sign. (Heb. 10:22, Titus 3:5)

You ARE saying that Peter misunderstood the Word of their Lord, & they still taught Old Covenant ritual.

You believe that the Word they preached was error.

Instead of you being in error in all these things.

 

[rapt]

How does the spirit of antichrist manifest itself, and how can we recognize it, so as not to be deceived by it?

2Thes 2:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. (calling themselves "Christians"!)
7
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work...
8...
that Wicked (spirit and his 'body' of unbelievers will)
be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming (2Thes 1:7-10):
9
Even him (all antichrists collectively)
, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10
And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12
That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness (the sin of exalting everthing else but the truth of the scriptures)

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

We see John declaring the revelation of who "anitchrist" is; "he" is not only one person, "he" is MANY.)

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

Jesus IS the Word of God (Jn 1:14; Rev 19:13). When someone denies any part of God's Word, they deny Jesus Christ. They are therefore "antichrist".

1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

The SPIRIT of antichrist has been in the world since John penned that scripture! It uses MANY different angles against the truth. There is a SMORGASBORD
of deceit for unbelievers to pick from today to suit their every fancy, and many of these lies are labeled
"Christianity". This IS the falling away from the true faith that was prophecied. God has sent strong delusion upon those who refuse to believe His Word, and they believe a twisted version of it that can't save anyone.

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

That was only ONE of the many deceits of an antichrist. Paul said the spirit of antichrist exalts itself above EVERYTHING of God, while it sits in God's temple as if it is God. He said that even among church members that men would rise up and deceive by perverse doctrines for their own prestige (Acts 20:29,30). We know Jesus said to "beware of false prophets, which come to you as sheep, but inwardly they are ravening wolves". He said "Ye shall know them by their fruits". When we see someone denying the word of God, and exalting strange doctrines such as that the Apostles preached a false gospel at Pentacost, we can recognize the spirit of antichrist undermining the scripture, and USURPING the truth with DECEIT.

 

[agape]

Hi rapt,

I feel I must say this. You have totally taken the Word of God and twisted it into a lie.

An antichrist is anyone who literally "opposes" the Christ...his coming as the Messiah...Man's Redeemer. An antichrist is not someone who doesn't agree with your theory of who the Word is in John 1:1.

Also, in verse 4 of II Thessalonians 2, where you "add" 'calling themselves Christians' is totally private interpretation on your part. If you understand the accuracy of God's Word, Christians will not be part of the "wrath of God" described in the Book of Revelation.

John 3:36:
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Colossians 3:6:
For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

Romans 5:9:
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Anyone who confesses Jesus Christ as Lord and believes in his heart that God hath raised him from the dead, is saved, born-again of incorruptible seed, eternal life...will NOT be part of the wrath of God.

Praise God!.....

God bless you,
Agape

 

[HopeofGlory]

Ian,

You said:
Water baptism is NOT an Old Covenant sign. THe "various baptisms" of Hebrews 9 included ashes & blood. These were God-given, like circumcision. God carefully taught that heart circumcision was required. They did not argue that because true circumcision was of the heart, that the physical act was NOT required. Look up the "circumcision Scriptures & you will see what I mean.

Reply:
To say that "water baptism is not an old testament sign" is foolish. Water baptism was practiced "for" remission of sins and had it's inception with John the Baptist well before Christ's gave us the "NEW" testament in His blood "for" remission of sins. This is a simple fact that can not be reasoned away with false analogies. Signs are a shadow of things to come and are of no use after the real things are manifested. To say we still need water baptism is no different than to say we still need circumcision of the flesh. Water baptism "for" remission of sins (old testament) was a mere shadow of faith in His shed blood for remission of sins (new testament).

A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed. Matt. 16:4 (KJV)

But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ. 2 Cor. 3:14 (KJV)

Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. Heb. 10:9 (KJV)
By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Heb. 10:10 (KJV)

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 2 Cor. 5:17 (KJV)

Old things (old testament) are passed away and all things are new (new testament).


You said:
Certainly saving baptism is into Christ, by the Holy Spirit. The fact that a sign has significance does not mean that the sign is superfluous.

Reply:
Water baptism was obeyed "for" remission of sins and it can not be argued to the contrary unless you choose to go against clear biblical teaching. "If" indeed faith in His shed blood in the "new" testament now gives remission of sins then we can conclude the "old" testament "for" remission of sins has indeed been superceded by the "new".

You said:
They taught water baptism for remission of sins. That is only a partial answer, for the preached the crucified & risen Christ, and they commanded repentance & baptism.

Reply:
I agree, it is only a partial answer and you reply was only partial in that the death Christ was not taught as the means "for" remission but obeying in water baptism "for" remission was commanded.

You said:
At last we have what you realy believe. You reject the Word of God preached by the Apostles. Do you also reject the Holy Spirit inspired Gospels? And the Spirit inspired letters of Peter & Paul & the others? How do we know what is truth?

Reply:
Calm down Ian, You know I don't reject the word of God as I know you don't reject the word of God. Accusations only cause bitterness. We know what is truth by the gospel that came forth from the very lips of Christ our Saviour.

You said:
While water baptism has its basis in the Old Covenant Scriptures (as Heb. 9 explains) it is a New COvenant sign. (Heb. 10:22, Titus 3:5)

Reply:
Well first of all I don't see "sign" mention in either of these scriptures and we are instructed in God's word that "old" things are pasted away and "all" things are new. (Heb. 10:9) (2Cor. 5:17).

Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Heb. 10:22 (KJV)
Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised Heb. 10:23 (KJV)

To believe this refers to water baptism is beyond the logic of reason unless you would have us assume "pure" water is not metaphoric.

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Titus 3:5 (KJV)
Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; Titus 3:6 (KJV)

If water baptism is not a work to obtain sin remission I will slap Rapt! (((lol))) Just kidding!

Titus explains this "pure" water is the Holy Spirit and not water baptism.

Continued.........

 

[HopeofGlory]

Ian,

You asked:
You ARE saying that Peter misunderstood the Word of their Lord, & they still taught Old Covenant ritual.

Reply:
Peter indeed did misunderstand the "new" testament as I have shown with scripture. This "new" testament removed the law and ordinances of the "old" testament for remission of sins that had it's inception with John the Baptist. This is as simple as it can get when we realize the testaments both old and new are "for" remission of sins. Again, Peter taught the old testament "for" remission of sins at Pentecost.

Peter’s Conversion:

"All" scripture is given by inspiration of God (2 Tim 3:16)! Peter was declaring this truth given to him by Paul in (2 Pet. 3:16). We also know Jesus stated that Peter would be converted at a later date (Luke 22:32). This statement of Jesus was made right after He offered the "new testament in His blood" (John 6:53-56) of which the apostles replied "who can hear (believe) it" (John 6:60). To say that Peter understood that Christ would die for His sins is to deny clear scripture to the contrary. When Jesus began teaching Peter of His death Peter spoke against it and Jesus replied...Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be "of men"( Matt. 16:23).
We know Peter did not understand the clear teachings of Jesus...how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day( Matt. 16:21) because after His resurrection...he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen (Mark 16:14). Peter's conversion continued after Pentecost for he was instructed...Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature (Mark 16:15) but Peter had this to say concerning Cornelius....Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation ( Acts 10:28).....That is in direct opposition to the great commission. At the Jerusalem council Paul confronts Peter... I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed (Gal. 2:11). Peter admits the things he did not understand but were revealed to Paul....As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction (2 Pet. 3:16).

Paul confronted Peter in Gal. 2 and instructed the apostles in the Gospel of Christ:

But when I saw that they (apostles) walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? Gal. 2:14 (KJV)
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Gal. 2:16 (KJV)
But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. Gal. 2:17 (KJV)
For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. Gal. 2:18 (KJV)
For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. Gal. 2:19 (KJV)
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. Gal. 2:20 (KJV)
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. Gal. 2:21 (KJV)

The apostles were slow to learn and were in error concerning the death of Christ (Matt. 16:23), the new testament (John 6:60),the resurrection of Christ (Mark 16:14), the great commission (Acts 10:28), eating with Gentiles , circumcision, the law of works (Gal. 2), and such errors are NOT taught by the Holy Spirit. What we learn for this is the doctrines of men are not God’s but the truth would be revealed by progressive revelation of which was fulfilled with the teachings of Paul.

We should not be concerned in the offence of men for we cannot please man if the cost is offence of the cross of Christ.

After Peter’s conversion through Paul’s teachings he affirms:

Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. 1 Pet. 1:2 (KJV)

Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. 1 Pet. 1:16 (KJV)
And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: 1 Pet. 1:17 (KJV)
Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 1 Pet. 1:18 (KJV)
But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 1 Pet. 1:19 (KJV)
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 1 Pet. 1:20 (KJV)
Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 1 Pet. 1:21 (KJV)

At the end of his life, Peter admits he was wrong and gives credit where credit is due.

This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: 2 Pet. 3:1 (KJV)
That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: 2 Pet. 3:2 (KJV)

Paul was included in these words of Peter as a holy prophet and Peter had this to say about Paul's teachings which have become the new message to the world.

As also in all his epistles (Paul‘s), speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 2 Pet. 3:16 (KJV)
Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. 2 Pet. 3:17 (KJV)

Peter credited PAUL as the one who delivered the things that were "hard to be understood" and had this to say about those who would not accept Paul’s teachings.

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 2 Pet. 3:8 (KJV)
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 2 Pet. 3:9 (KJV)

Peter includes himself in this statement and how realizes the promise was not received at Pentecost and warns the listeners to not be ignorant of it. This clearly was hard for them to understand for the Pentecostal experience was a Jewish nation expecting to receive the promise of the kingdom and the things pertaining to it.


Paul had this to say:
If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: Eph. 3:2 (KJV)
How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Eph. 3:3 (KJV)
Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Eph. 3:4 (KJV)
Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit Eph. 3:5 (KJV)

It says "now" revealed and by who? It says "my knowledge" (Paul's)! By what means? A "mystery" that is "now" revealed!

Paul was the first to reveal the "new" testament in the blood of Christ for remission of sins and it is clear and to the point for all who have ears to hear.

Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins (not water baptism) that are past, through the forbearance of God; Rom. 3:25 (KJV)
To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Rom. 3:26 (KJV)
Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Rom. 3:27 (KJV)
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Rom. 3:28 (KJV)

Here Peter, after his conversion, backs up the truth of Paul’s words:

The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 1 Pet. 3:21 (KJV)

The baptism that "saves" is an operation of God not man and Peter gives that meaning further clarity when he says "not the putting away of the filth of the flesh" i.e. water baptism but (note the contrast) "the answer of a good conscience" i.e. faith.

We must remove this works option of water baptism and leave only the finished work of Christ for remission of sins. I do not believe in clear cut dispensations but believe in progressive revelation in respect to what the listeners believed and what their actions and words testify as compared to the new testament.

 

[Ian Day]

Hope,

I don't know where to start in proving your errors, for you have not understood a word I have written up to now.

I don't reject you as an antichrist, for I understand that you have repented & turned to God, and are trusting in Christ alone for your salvation.

I don't reject you for teaching against water baptism, for I believe baptism is for believers, already born again, from above, by the Holy Spirit.

I accept you as a brother in Christ, who is very confused, & needs to be taught the way of God more perfectly.

[Hope]
Peter indeed did misunderstand the "new" testament as I have shown with scripture. This "new" testament removed the law and ordinances of the "old" testament for remission of sins that had it's inception with John the Baptist. This is as simple as it can get when we realize the testaments both old and new are "for" remission of sins. Again, Peter taught the old testament "for" remission of sins at Pentecost.

I don't think anyone but you thinks that Peter was not converted for many years after the resurrection. THe dealings of the risen Lord with his disciples make it very clear that they were true believers, fully converted.

While "various baptisms" can be found in the Old Covenant Scriptures, the true water baptism is only in prophecy:

Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them].

The apostles were slow to believe the New COvenant teachings before the cross, but the risen Lord Jesus, & the Holy Spirit made sure that they did understand before they started preaching. There is no suggestion in Scripture that Peter's Pentecost sermon was mistaken.

If Peter appears to have missed out some doctrines, like redemption through the blood of Jesus, note that "Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. "

Those "other words" are not recorded in Acts, but when he wrote down his teaching we read:

1 Peter 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, [as] silver and gold, from your vain conversation [received] by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

I charge you, read Acts as the inspired, infallible & authoritative Word of God. Not as a record of the misunderstandings of the apostles. THey were speaking under the direct inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

 

[JustAChristian]

Anti-Nicene Fathers and Water Baptism.

Anti-Nicene Fathers and Water Baptism.

The men were not so removed from the Lord as we, so the fact of their statements should be greatly considered. Each is documented in books that are still accessible. Though you may not believe them, you can not deny that they bear consideration.


Water Baptism Essential to Salvation

110 AD Ignatius of Antioch "Let none of you turn deserter. Let your baptism be your armor; your faith, your helmet; your love, your spear; your patient endurance, your panoply" (Letter to Polycarp 6).

110-165 AD Martyr "As many as are persuaded and believe that what we teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, are instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we praying and fasting with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, 'Except ye be born again, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.' Now, that it is impossible for those who have once been born to enter into their mothers' wombs, is manifest to all... And for this we have learned from the apostles this reason. Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe." (Justin Martyr, "First Apology," Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 1, pg. 183)

110-165 AD Martyr The "Constitutions of the Holy Apostles" also refer to John 3:5. There, the one who refuses to be baptized is to be condemned as an unbeliever, partially on the basis of what Jesus told Nicodemus……. "He that, out of contempt, will not be baptized, shall be condemned as an unbeliever, and shall be reproached as ungrateful and foolish. For the Lord says: 'Except a man be baptized of water and of the Spirit, he shall by no means enter into the kingdom of heaven.' And again: 'He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved but he that believeth not shall be damned.'" (Justin Martyr "Constitutions of the Holy Apostles," Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 7, pg. 456-457.)

110-165AD Martyr "there is no other way [to obtain God's promises] than this-to become acquainted with Christ, to be washed in the fountain spoken of by Isaiah for the remission of sins, and for the remainder, to live sinless lives." (Justin Martyr, Trypho chap. 44)

110-165AD Martyr "Those who are convinced that what we teach is true and who desire to live accordingly are instructed to fast and to pray to God for the remission of all their past sins. We also pray and fast with them. Then we bring them to a place where there is water, and they are regenerated in the same manner in which we ourselves were regenerated. They then receive the washing with water in the name of God (the Father and Lord of the universe) and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit. For Christ said, 'Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven"' [John 3:5]. (Justin First Apology chant 61)

115-188 THEOPHILUS "On the fifth day the living creatures which proceed from the waters were produced, through which also is revealed the manifold wisdom of God in these things; for who could count their multitude and various kinds? Moreover, the things proceeding from the waters were blessed by God, that this also might be a sign of men's being destined to receive repentance and remission of sins, through the water and laver of regeneration, as many as come to the truth, and are born again, and receive blessing from God." (Theophilus, "To Autolycus,", Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 2, pg. 101)

115AD Second Clement "For, if we do the will of Christ, we shall find rest; but if otherwise, then nothing shall deliver us from eternal punishment, if we should disobey His commandments. . . . [W]ith what confidence shall we, if we keep not our baptism pure and undefiled, enter into the kingdom of God? Or who shall be our advocate, unless we be found having holy and righteous works?' (Second Clement 6:7)

120-205 AD IRENAEUS "As we are lepers in sin, we are made clean from our old transgressions by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord. We are thus spiritually regenerated as newborn infants, even as the Lord has declared: 'Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.'" Irenaeus, "Fragments From Lost Writings", no. 34, Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 1, pg. 574)

120-205 AD IRENAEUS "This class of men have been instigated by Satan to a denial of that baptism which is regeneration to God, and thus to a renunciation of the whole faith." (Against Heresies, bk. 1, chap. 21, sec. 1, Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 1, pg. 345.)

140-230 AD TERTULLIAN "After the world had been hereupon set in order through its elements, when inhabitants were given it, 'the waters' were the first to receive the precept 'to bring forth living creatures.' Water was the first to produce that which had life, that it might be no wonder in baptism if waters know how to give life." (Tertullian, "On Baptism," Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 3, page 670)

140-230 AD Tertullian "Baptism itself is a corporal act by which we are plunged into the water, while its effect is spiritual, in that we are freed from our sins" (Baptism 7:2).

140-230 AD TERTULLIAN "But they roll back an objection from that apostle himself, in that he said, 'For Christ sent me not to baptize;' as if by this argument baptism were done away! For if so, why did he baptize Gaius, and Crispus, and the house of Stephanas? However, even if Christ had not sent him to baptize, yet He had given other apostles the precept to baptize. But these words were written to the Corinthians in regard of the circumstances of that particular time; seeing that schisms and dissensions were agitated among them, while one attributes everything to Paul, another to Apollos. For which reason the 'peacemaking' apostle, for fear he should seem to claim all gifts for himself, says that he had been sent 'not to baptize, but to preach.' For preaching is the prior thing, baptizing the posterior. Therefore the preaching came first: but I think baptizing withal was lawful to him to whom preaching was." (Tertullian, "On Baptism," Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 3, pg. 676)

140-230 AD TERTULLIAN "Happy is our sacrament of water, in that, by washing away the sins of our early blindness, we are set free and admitted into eternal life! A treatise on this matter will not be superfluous; instructing not only such as are just becoming formed in the faith... The consequence is, that a viper of the Cainite heresy, lately conversant in this quarter, has carried away a great number with her most venomous doctrine, making it her first aim to destroy baptism. Which is quite in accordance with nature; for vipers and asps and serpents themselves generally do affect arid and waterless places. But we, little fishes after the example of our ikhthus, Jesus Christ, are born in water, nor have we safety in any other way than by permanently abiding in water; so that most monstrous creature, who had no right to teach even sound doctrine, knew full well how to kill the little fishes, by taking them away from the water!" (On Baptism, Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 3, pg. 669.)

140-230 AD TERTULLIAN "How mighty is the grace of water, in the sight of God and His Christ, for the confirmation of baptism! Never is Christ without water: if, that is, He is Himself baptized in water; inaugurates in water the first rudimentary displays of his power, when invited to the wedding; invites the thirsty, when He makes a discourse, to Himself being living water; approves, when teaching concerning love, among works of charity, the cup of water offered to a poor child; recruits His strength at a well; walks over the water; willingly crosses the sea; ministers water to his disciples. Onward even to the passion does the witness of baptism last: while He is being surrendered to the cross, water intervenes; witness Pilate's hands: when He is wounded, forth from His side bursts water; witness the soldier's lance!... True and stable faith is baptized with water, unto salvation; pretended and weak faith is baptized with fire, unto judgment." (Tertullian, "On Baptism," Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 3, pg. 673, 674)

140-230 AD TERTULLIAN "The prescript is laid down that 'without baptism, salvation is attainable by none' chiefly on the ground of that declaration of the Lord, who says, 'Unless one be born of water, he hath not life.'" (On Baptism, Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 3, pg. 674-675)

140-230 AD TERTULLIAN "What more disgraceful than immodesties? If, moreover, even from a 'brother' who 'walketh idly' he warns the Thessalonians to withdraw themselves, how much more withal from a fornicator! For these are the deliberate judgments of Christ, 'loving the Church,' who 'hath delivered Himself up for her, that He may sanctify her (purifying her utterly by the laver of water) in the word, that He may present the Church to Himself glorious, not having stain or wrinkle' - of course after the laver - 'but that she may be holy and without reproach; thereafter, to wit, being 'without wrinkle' as a virgin, 'without stain' (of fornication) as a spouse, 'without disgrace' (of vileness), as having been 'utterly purified.'" (Tertullian, "On Modesty," 217 AD, Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 4, pg. 94)

140-230 AD TERTULLIAN This is in agreement to the context of the words of John the Baptist when he prophesied of the baptism of fire. Referring to Jesus, John said, "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire" (comment on Matthew 3:11-12).

150-200 AD CLEMENT "Being baptized, we are illuminated; illuminated, we become sons; being made sons, we are made perfect; being made perfect, we are made immortal... This work is variously called grace, and illumination, and perfection, and washing. Washing, by which we cleanse away our sins; grace, by which the penalties accruing to transgressions are remitted; and illumination, by which that holy light of salvation is beheld, that is, by which we see God clearly." (Clement of Alexandria, "The Instructor," Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 2, pg. 215)

150-200 AD CLEMENT "But when the time began to draw near that what was wanting in the Mosaic institutions should be supplied, as we have said, and that the Prophet should appear, of whom he had foretold that He should warn them by the mercy of God to cease from sacrificing; lest haply they might suppose that on the cessation of sacrifice there was no remission of sins for them He instituted baptism by water amongst them, in which they might be absolved from all their sins on the invocation of His name." (Clement, "Recognitions of Clement," Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 8, pg. 88)

150-200 AD CLEMENT "Now God has ordered every one who worships Him to be sealed by baptism; but if you refuse, and obey your own will rather than God's, you are doubtless contrary and hostile to His will. But you will perhaps say, 'What does the baptism of water contribute towards the worship of God?' In the first place, because that which hath pleased God is fulfilled. In the second place, because, when you are regenerated and born again of water and of God, the frailty of your former birth, which you have through men, is cut off, and so at length you shall be able to attain salvation; but otherwise it is impossible. For thus hath the true prophet testified to us with an oath: 'Verily I say to you, That unless a man is born again of water, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.' Therefore make haste; for there is in these waters a certain power of mercy which was borne upon them at the beginning, and acknowledges those who are baptized under the name of the threefold sacrament, and rescues them from future punishments, presenting as a gift to God the souls that are consecrated by baptism. Betake yourselves therefore to these waters, for they alone can quench the violence of the future fire; and he who delays to approach to them, it is evident that the idol of unbelief remains in him, and by it he is prevented from hastening to the waters which confer salvation." (Clement, "Recognitions of Clement," Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 8, pg. 155)

150-200 AD Clement "This work is variously called grace, and illumination, and perfection, and washing. Washing, by which we cleanse away our sins. Grace, by which the penalties of our sins are canceled. And illumination, by which that holy light of salvation is beheld, that is, by which we see God clearly." (Clement Instructor bk. 1, chap. 6)

150-200 AD CLEMENT "We are washed from all our sins, and are no longer entangled in evil. This is the one grace of illumination, that our characters are not the same as before our washing... In the same way, therefore, we also, repenting of our sins, renouncing our iniquities, purified by baptism, speed back to the eternal light, children to the Father." (Clement of Alexandria, "The Instructor," Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 2, pg. 216-217.)

150-200 AD CLEMENT "When he had given them these and such like precepts, he made proclamation to the people, saying: 'Since I have resolved to stay three months with you, if any one desires it, let him be baptized; that, stripped of his former evils, he may for the future, in consequence of his own conduct, become heir of heavenly blessings, as a reward for his good actions." (Clement, "Recognitions of Clement," Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 8, pg. 132

This takes us only through 2nd century for the most part. I could paste an equal portion of other statements, but I believe this is sufficent to establish presidence for consideration that baptism in water for the remission of sins was believed and practiced by the early church.


JustAChristian