Originally posted by Zakath
It's only been twenty centuries. When do you expect they'll figure it out?
When He returns.
Actually they believe many things differently than you... try a brief read here
link - he even takes questions!
Well, I know they ain't Christians, but our faith did come from theirs. We believe in the same God, just differently. I really do need to clarify more when I post, huh? :doh:
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God requires one to be perfect in order to be holy and acceptable to Him, thus ensuring a relationship with Him.
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And you know this how?
Well, ummm, because us Christians tend to believe that God is perfect. And to fellowship with imperfection is against His character.
Not always. Read the rest of the OT besides Isaiah. It describes all kinds of other penalties for various kinds of sin.
I'm not talking about any kind of physical punishment or physical death, I'm talking about spiritual death; eternal damnation apart from Love, Truth, Light, the only Being whose beauty far surpasses that which any living being has ever witnessed on this earth; God.
But his system was what doomed you in the first place. That's kind of a backwards way to handle things, don't you think?
No, His system didn't doom us, we doomed ourselves. Like you said, His system was too much trouble for us. So we tossed Him aside and deceided to do things our way. What a big mistake. Some of us have found this out, but many are still wondering why we can't do anything right around here...
So your deity requires and accepts human sacrifice?
I thought I made this point clear when I said God
chose to take upon Himself our punishment. It's like if you were walking through the jungles in Vietnam and shots were fired and another soldier jumped in front of you to take your bullet. Has nothing to do with human sacrifices. It's all about love.
I provided you with some information about Alexander the Great which you did not comment on. Did you read any of the information I suggested? If so, what did you think?
Yeah, I read it. I think that whether there were earlier historical claims about him or not is irrelevant; The fact is you believe in them. Why not believe in what people wrote about Jesus?
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It seems you guys, Atheists, want to pick apart the Bible and you request "extrodinary evidence", but when it comes to someone else who would not effect the way we live, you don't apply the same standards.
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Very astute. You picked up the point that extraordinary claims (miracles, divine intervention in daily affairs, etc,) should require extraordinary evidence while day-to-day things that would not affect the way you live would require significantly less evidence since they may not impact you at all.
For example, you claim that not following the teachings of your deity will impact me eternally, while not accepting your view on Alexander the Great does not impact me at all.
What Alexander the Great did in his time and age was phenomenal. He claims to have conquered the world at age 33! No one has ever done that before. That is indeed an extraordinary event in history.
So, I ask, "Where is the extraordinary evidence to back that extraordinary claim up?" Has any skeptic in Christ's resurrection, equally applied the principle of "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence," to Alexander the Great's conquest of the known world? If not, then this brings us full circle to the issue concerning presuppositions. With an atheist, for example, the presupposition that God does not exist means that the extraordinary claim of Christ's resurrection requires extraordinary evidence but Alexander the Great's world conquest does not, yet both are extraordinary claims of history.
If it is true about Alexander the Great, no big deal. It won't have any effect on anyone and it won't change anything in anyone's life outside of just having the information that he conquered the known world by age 33. But, if it is true about Jesus, then that is completely different. Jesus claimed to be divine and He had a message for people about heaven and hell and that salvation is only through Him. Such a claim requires extraordinary evidence, such as a resurrection from the dead. This would have a profound effect on people and it can make them uncomfortable. Therefore, people will not want it to be true and will desperately try to hold onto their presuppositions; hence, the claim that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Matthew J. Slick
CHRISTIAN APOLOGETICS AND RESEARCH MINISTRY
No its not. It's supporters claim that it is religious literature, not merely historical literature. Neither you or I would not care one whit whether someone claimed miraculous powers for Alexander the Great. But you claim extreme miraculous powers for one Jesus of Nazareth. That's a big difference and one that requires a different kind of evidence.
What kind of evidence? And why don't you ask the same of the historical claims made on Alexander's conquering of the world at age 33? That seems to be an extremely extraodinary claim, don't you think?
So you are claiming you had direct revelation from your deity?
He didn't come out of Heaven with thunder and lightening or anything. Here's my story. I was raised in a Christian home and I've believed in God for as long as I can remember. I had my doubts though, especially when I was younger and during my pre-teen years, but God saved me and I can not stray from the faith. I knew deep down inside that He was real because of many things I've seen in my life and the things I see around me. I've heard the truth spoken in churches and through the Bible and I've seen it in action in the world. I've related this truth with what the world has to offer and I see a world that is extremely blind of what it has gotten into. People blindly follow sin, believing it will grant them happiness. And it does, but for only a season... Anyways, I'll shut up now. I tend to ramble alot, sorry.
Quite possibly, if there
is a deity...
You'll find out one day. I just pray it won't be too late...
If you choose not to, then you also have the choice to choose to follow it. That's my point. If you can choose to follow it, then it's likely someone has. If they have, then there is no need for "salvation."
I agree. But if there was a chance that people could live perfect lives, then we wouldn't be debating right now because there would have never been a Jesus who died on the cross. In fact, we'd all be naked still, living in a beautiful garden...
I also believe that Jesus of Nazareth was human. The question is, do you believe that Jesus of Nazareth was "God" as well?
Yes. I believe in the Trinity. But let's not go down that road either. Too long...
See my question above about human sacrifice...
See my answer above on human sacrifice.
You know this because your deity told you, or because you read it somewhere?
I know this from experience.
If we cannot choose to stop, then we cannot stop. This makes it a no win scenario with the deity creating us for destruction...
Well,
some of us. The elect will be saved.
Thank you for clarifying.
You're welcome.
But, aside from some personal revelation from your deity, how does one accomplish this radical change from unbelief to belief?
One can not do it on their own will. Only God can make one believe. Only He can change one's heart. He does this through the gospel. When His elect hear the truth, they believe it and become saved, born-again, a new man with a changed heart, etc. etc.
But they are your "brothers and sisters in Christ". Their actions impact you, even today. To ignore those actions is to weaken your position considerably.
They had nothing to do with my salvation.
Just you and God, eh? If it's all about the individual and the deity, then why is there a "Church"?
Oh boy, I knew this was coming. Either you read too much into my posts, or like you said, I just don't clarify enough. Of course the church is important. To not fellowship with people who believe in the same thing you do would be suicide to your faith. One who is saved will desire to "hang out" with those in the same mind and accord as you. That's where the church scene comes into play. But the church has nothing to do with my salvation. It does not sustain it, grant it, contribute to it, nor take away from it; that's totally in God's hands.
