ARCHIVE: My niece is gay and I love her for it. So does God.
- Thread starter wickwoman
- Start date
Freak
New member
Re: Re: Re: Straying from Christianity
Re: Re: Re: Straying from Christianity
Well, I guess we are trying to figure your bizarre ideas out. It's not normal to call God a she. I have traveled to nearly 30 countries of this world and have yet come by someone who calls God a "she"--quite strange.
Re: Re: Re: Straying from Christianity
Well, I guess we are trying to figure your bizarre ideas out. It's not normal to call God a she. I have traveled to nearly 30 countries of this world and have yet come by someone who calls God a "she"--quite strange.
calvinistkid
New member
Just wondering... is there a single debate/discussion thread on this site that HASN'T turned into a name-calling free-for-all after the first few pages? Are there even two people on this site who are able to discuss a controversial topic without resorting to ad hominem arguments, and more importantly, able to ignore the ones that ARE used. I mean, honestly, does namecalling even deserve to be recognised and responded to, or should we ignore it during the course of the discussion and rebuke it later, like a discontent two year old tugging on his mother's pant leg while she is trying to talk to a friend?
By CK
When I first started posting here it kind of hurt my feelings when someone called me a name. I thought they were being un-Christian and I thought I was just trying to debate the subject in a rational way. But over time, I realized it was a sure sign that someone had no logical reply and had conceded the point. Also it’s a good opening to insert a little humor. And I have a great sense of humor.
However that being said I do understand your point about every thread turning into a name-calling contest and agree with you on that.
When I first started posting here it kind of hurt my feelings when someone called me a name. I thought they were being un-Christian and I thought I was just trying to debate the subject in a rational way. But over time, I realized it was a sure sign that someone had no logical reply and had conceded the point. Also it’s a good opening to insert a little humor. And I have a great sense of humor.
However that being said I do understand your point about every thread turning into a name-calling contest and agree with you on that.
o2bwise
New member
On "Hell"
On "Hell"
Hello Poly,
If you grabbed a Greek Old Testament (Septuagint or LXX), you would realize that the Greek words aion and aionios need not mean of eternal time duration. Once that is realized, it follows that the mere presence of those words, in a text of scripture, does not lend any more weight with respect to referring to eternal time duration versus temporal time duration.
Of the eternal fires:
Isaiah 33:14-15
14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; Fearfulness has seized the hypocrites: "Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? Who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?" 15 He who walks righteously and speaks uprightly, He who despises the gain of oppressions, Who gestures with his hands, refusing bribes, Who stops his ears from hearing of bloodshed, And shuts his eyes from seeing evil:
It is the righteous who dwell in the eternal fires.
And just what are the eternal fires? What is the unquenchable fire, that cannot be put out?
Song of Solomon 8:6-8
6 The Shulamite to Her Beloved Set me as a seal upon your heart, As a seal upon your arm; For love is as strong as death, Jealousy as cruel as the grave; Its flames are flames of fire, A most vehement flame. 7 Many waters cannot quench love, Nor can the floods drown it. If a man would give for love All the wealth of his house, It would be utterly despised.
What a contrast! You ask if God will love the lost when in “hell” while the Bible states that the eternal fires ARE love!
As the parable of the two houses demonstrates, the same storm that causes one house to be destroyed, is endured by the other. This storm is an unveiled revelation of the love of God. For it is His goodness that reveals our character.
Isaiah 33:17-18b
17 Your eyes will see the King in His beauty; They will see the land that is very far off. 18 Your heart will meditate on terror:
Isaiah 28:17-20
17 Also I will make justice the measuring line, And righteousness the plummet; The hail will sweep away the refuge of lies, And the waters will overflow the hiding place. 18 Your covenant with death will be annulled, And your agreement with Sheol will not stand; When the overflowing scourge passes through, Then you will be trampled down by it. 19 As often as it goes out it will take you; For morning by morning it will pass over, And by day and by night; It will be a terror just to understand the report." 20 For the bed is too short to stretch out on, And the covering so narrow that one cannot wrap himself in it.
The report is an unveiled revelation of our sin-sick souls. The house built on the rock is as the spiritual man in James. All people who are of this house, in the last days, receive the storm progressively and are purified by it.
James 1:23-25
23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; 24 for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. 25 But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.
Psalm 12:6
The words of the Lord are pure words, Like silver tried in a furnace of earth, Purified seven times.
There is the unveiling – seven times. And there is the furnace. For one group, it enables chastening, cleansing and for another, it is their final destruction (Daniel 3 is a nice parallel to this, in the physical realm).
Matthew 13:40-43
40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!
Note the parallels. Furnace. Fire. Note the righteous shine forth as the sun (boy, that is pretty fiery!). Jesus exhorts, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear!” While most sit on the surface of the word and thus, understand less God’s lovely character.
Whether the object lesson be storm, furnace, water, sword, birth pangs, cup, or whatever, the illustrations are similar. Two groups are exposed to the same thing.
One is destroyed and one is perfectly cleansed.
The lost are destroyed by a full revelation of love because they see too much of their sinfulness in too short a time frame. They “pull a Judas” and the pain comes from their own burning psyche, just as with Judas.
Why does God do this? Does He relish the sufferings of the lost? No!
He must vindicate His justice before the universe. When the righteous are prepared to survive the storm, He allows them to be subjected to it. They feel to be altogether sinful, but they survive because they are righteous. The lost are destroyed by the very same revelation. They feel no more sinful. But, lacking righteousness, their response is despair.
This twinfold revelation proves:
1. Salvation is innate to righteousness itself.
2. Condemnation is innate to sinfulness.
3. The same load that crushes the lost can be endured by the righteous.
God cannot bear false witness. The universe sees how good righteousness is and how bad sin is and the revelation is so intense that while free will is not denied them, no one will ever choose sin again. The universe is eternally safeguarded from sin.
Poly, in a book I read, the author wrote that people cannot rise above their conceptions of Deity. I now know partially why you are as obviously cold-hearted as you are. You have assigned attributes to God that are satanic – and you do not rise above your misunderstood conception of the Lord.
God Bless,
Tony (o2)
On "Hell"
Hello Poly,
If you grabbed a Greek Old Testament (Septuagint or LXX), you would realize that the Greek words aion and aionios need not mean of eternal time duration. Once that is realized, it follows that the mere presence of those words, in a text of scripture, does not lend any more weight with respect to referring to eternal time duration versus temporal time duration.
Of the eternal fires:
Isaiah 33:14-15
14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; Fearfulness has seized the hypocrites: "Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? Who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?" 15 He who walks righteously and speaks uprightly, He who despises the gain of oppressions, Who gestures with his hands, refusing bribes, Who stops his ears from hearing of bloodshed, And shuts his eyes from seeing evil:
It is the righteous who dwell in the eternal fires.
And just what are the eternal fires? What is the unquenchable fire, that cannot be put out?
Song of Solomon 8:6-8
6 The Shulamite to Her Beloved Set me as a seal upon your heart, As a seal upon your arm; For love is as strong as death, Jealousy as cruel as the grave; Its flames are flames of fire, A most vehement flame. 7 Many waters cannot quench love, Nor can the floods drown it. If a man would give for love All the wealth of his house, It would be utterly despised.
What a contrast! You ask if God will love the lost when in “hell” while the Bible states that the eternal fires ARE love!
As the parable of the two houses demonstrates, the same storm that causes one house to be destroyed, is endured by the other. This storm is an unveiled revelation of the love of God. For it is His goodness that reveals our character.
Isaiah 33:17-18b
17 Your eyes will see the King in His beauty; They will see the land that is very far off. 18 Your heart will meditate on terror:
Isaiah 28:17-20
17 Also I will make justice the measuring line, And righteousness the plummet; The hail will sweep away the refuge of lies, And the waters will overflow the hiding place. 18 Your covenant with death will be annulled, And your agreement with Sheol will not stand; When the overflowing scourge passes through, Then you will be trampled down by it. 19 As often as it goes out it will take you; For morning by morning it will pass over, And by day and by night; It will be a terror just to understand the report." 20 For the bed is too short to stretch out on, And the covering so narrow that one cannot wrap himself in it.
The report is an unveiled revelation of our sin-sick souls. The house built on the rock is as the spiritual man in James. All people who are of this house, in the last days, receive the storm progressively and are purified by it.
James 1:23-25
23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; 24 for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. 25 But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.
Psalm 12:6
The words of the Lord are pure words, Like silver tried in a furnace of earth, Purified seven times.
There is the unveiling – seven times. And there is the furnace. For one group, it enables chastening, cleansing and for another, it is their final destruction (Daniel 3 is a nice parallel to this, in the physical realm).
Matthew 13:40-43
40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!
Note the parallels. Furnace. Fire. Note the righteous shine forth as the sun (boy, that is pretty fiery!). Jesus exhorts, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear!” While most sit on the surface of the word and thus, understand less God’s lovely character.
Whether the object lesson be storm, furnace, water, sword, birth pangs, cup, or whatever, the illustrations are similar. Two groups are exposed to the same thing.
One is destroyed and one is perfectly cleansed.
The lost are destroyed by a full revelation of love because they see too much of their sinfulness in too short a time frame. They “pull a Judas” and the pain comes from their own burning psyche, just as with Judas.
Why does God do this? Does He relish the sufferings of the lost? No!
He must vindicate His justice before the universe. When the righteous are prepared to survive the storm, He allows them to be subjected to it. They feel to be altogether sinful, but they survive because they are righteous. The lost are destroyed by the very same revelation. They feel no more sinful. But, lacking righteousness, their response is despair.
This twinfold revelation proves:
1. Salvation is innate to righteousness itself.
2. Condemnation is innate to sinfulness.
3. The same load that crushes the lost can be endured by the righteous.
God cannot bear false witness. The universe sees how good righteousness is and how bad sin is and the revelation is so intense that while free will is not denied them, no one will ever choose sin again. The universe is eternally safeguarded from sin.
Poly, in a book I read, the author wrote that people cannot rise above their conceptions of Deity. I now know partially why you are as obviously cold-hearted as you are. You have assigned attributes to God that are satanic – and you do not rise above your misunderstood conception of the Lord.
God Bless,
Tony (o2)
calvinistkid
New member
Yeah. It doesn't "hurt my feelings". I have done enough discussion/evangalism in my short life to get beyond that. It is annoying, however. Perhaps I was wrong, but I had just assumed that Christians were held to higher standards than the rest of the world.
I am just new to this thread, but as I read through some of it I noticed a request to explain the story of the women caught in adultery and why Jesus did not uphold the Law.
I wondered about this myself until someone pointed out the opening verses of this that are usually omitted in discussions about it.
John 8:5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
I understand that under the rule of the Romans, the Jews were not permitted (under penalty of death?) to publicly advocate or carry out the death penalty for infractions of their Law.
It seems to me that Jesus acted very wisely in order to thwart the evildoers who were intent on trapping Him and thus prematurely ending His ministry. In addition, it serves to illustrate His divinity because only God has the power to forgive a sin that was not committed against us.
I wondered about this myself until someone pointed out the opening verses of this that are usually omitted in discussions about it.
John 8:5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
I understand that under the rule of the Romans, the Jews were not permitted (under penalty of death?) to publicly advocate or carry out the death penalty for infractions of their Law.
It seems to me that Jesus acted very wisely in order to thwart the evildoers who were intent on trapping Him and thus prematurely ending His ministry. In addition, it serves to illustrate His divinity because only God has the power to forgive a sin that was not committed against us.
Last edited:
wickwoman
New member
Re: Law Was "Kept"
Re: Law Was "Kept"
Did he also go and find the man she was caught in adultery with and "stone" him as well? We don't read that in the Bible do we? Since the scribes who recorded these events were probably conditioned to be chauvinistic, it seems they didn't find that important to mention in the Bible.
Re: Law Was "Kept"
Did he also go and find the man she was caught in adultery with and "stone" him as well? We don't read that in the Bible do we? Since the scribes who recorded these events were probably conditioned to be chauvinistic, it seems they didn't find that important to mention in the Bible.
Poly
Blessed beyond measure
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Gold Subscriber
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Re: On "Hell"
Re: On "Hell"
O2b,
Had I known this was going to turn into "What exactly is Hell?" I would have rephrased the question. So let me do so now.
Will God love those who are seperated from Him for all eternity due to their not accepting Him while on Earth?
Re: On "Hell"
O2b,
Had I known this was going to turn into "What exactly is Hell?" I would have rephrased the question. So let me do so now.
Will God love those who are seperated from Him for all eternity due to their not accepting Him while on Earth?
You've brought this up several times now making it seem as though I don't have a shred of compassion in my whole body. You need to stop. I have compassion where compassion is deserved. Just because homosexuals sicken me and I make no bones over how I feel toward them, as is expected of me by God, does not mean I am a completely cold-hearted person.
What attributes have I assigned to God that are Satanic?
DEVO
Documenting mans devolution
There all lots of different types of people.
I see two types of people emerging on this thread.
Those that claim they have compassion and demonstrate that compassion through generally apathy.
And then there are those claim they have compassion and demonstrate that compassion even if it means others may perceive them as having no compassion.
True compassion may (and most likely will) involve discomfort.
Assume your brother is a drug addict. The true compassionate would warn the brother of his destructive lifestyle and risk the brother's friendship in an effort to save his life.
I see two types of people emerging on this thread.
Those that claim they have compassion and demonstrate that compassion through generally apathy.
And then there are those claim they have compassion and demonstrate that compassion even if it means others may perceive them as having no compassion.
True compassion may (and most likely will) involve discomfort.
Assume your brother is a drug addict. The true compassionate would warn the brother of his destructive lifestyle and risk the brother's friendship in an effort to save his life.
Poly
Blessed beyond measure
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Gold Subscriber
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
:thumb:
If a child in in the middle of the railroad tracks and a train is dangerously close am I going to say sweetly in a soft voice, "little girl, you need to get off the track" or am I going to scream my full head off at her to get off and even shove her off if need be which could result in some bumps and bruises?
Eireann
New member
Not a valid comparison. A child standing on the tracks, presumably unaware of approaching danger, is not an informed lifestyle decision. The feelings of homosexuals may or may not be inborn, but to live the lifestyle is a conscious decision. I'd wager that the vast majority of them are well aware of the physical dangers associated with the lifestyle and are more than well aware of the social stigma attached. Screaming your head off at them to get "off the tracks" is less than useless. And shoving them "off the tracks" isn't your right. So you can keep up the fantasy that you're showing some misbegotten heroism, or you can be a true compassionate, let them know that you're there for them if they need you, but recognize that the decision is theirs to make, not yours.
wickwoman
New member
Re: Re: Re: Re: Straying from Christianity
Re: Re: Re: Re: Straying from Christianity
If you know about pagans then you know that pagans believe in gods and goddesses that represent the different aspects of the one true God who is the "all."
This would be a good place to Eireann to step in if he's still watching this thread.
Unity is a Christian religion that addresses God as he/she or mother/father in some churches, out of respect for people who do not believe God has sexual organs. Do you?
Re: Re: Re: Re: Straying from Christianity
If you know about pagans then you know that pagans believe in gods and goddesses that represent the different aspects of the one true God who is the "all."
This would be a good place to Eireann to step in if he's still watching this thread.
Unity is a Christian religion that addresses God as he/she or mother/father in some churches, out of respect for people who do not believe God has sexual organs. Do you?
Eireann
New member
yeah, I've meet quite a few people who call God a "she." Not just pagans, either. I've known Christians of various denominations to do so. Some were feminists, some were just trying to seem less chauvenistic, some even just said that when they thought of God, they felt more like the attributes of God they most connected with were maternal rather than paternal. I usually refer to God as S/he, incorporating both genders. Of course, we have no real idea if God even has a gender, so to speak. The Hebrew personification understandably reflects the patrifocal structure of that society, but doesn't really speak to whether God is male, female, both, or neither. Remember, even though the Bible says God created man in "their" image, at the same time, we create God in ours. In other words, in an attempt to understand or relate to God, we give him/her human attributes that may or may not be an accurate reflection of who or what S/he actually is. It might be more accurate to refer to God as It, but I doubt many would be comfortable doing so, as it just seems a bit disrespectful and subhumanizing. I don't see how calling God by a feminine pronoun is disrespectful, though. It's a choice.
wickwoman
New member
Re: My Own Unique View
Re: My Own Unique View
I saw your post but did not reply. The reason - I disagree. But I would never presume to try to convince you that your decision to "recover" is wrong. I cannot walk in your shoes. I'm not gay and I have never "burned" for another woman. I can tell you, however, that my neice is a normal, healthy young woman and the only obstacles she must overcome in her life are those created by the very ones who claim be "showing her the way."
A family member said tearfully about my neice - I'm just so afraid she'll be ostracized and ridiculed. My response? Well don't then!
It is illogical and I will never be convinced that God would purposely cause a person to be born with a "sin" or even to acquire that "sin" by some event beyond their control and then damn them to Hell for not overcoming it. You have said you do not condemn my neice, however, the very idea that she must "overcome" what is her natural state of existence is to imply that there is some negative associated with that lifestyle. The only negative is the stigma created by "Christians" and other homophobes who think that God looks down on gay people and points his bony finger in disgust. Meanwhile, they believe that same God will have mercy and grace for their continual judgmental, hateful, and prejudicial words.
In my opinion, if there was a Hell - and there isn't, the first tenants would be the hatemongers. Like the ones you see posting here. Thank God we all get the same measure of grace, karma, or call it what you will. Some of us have many lives to go before we reach our natural glorious state of existence. That is clearly reflected here.
Re: My Own Unique View
I saw your post but did not reply. The reason - I disagree. But I would never presume to try to convince you that your decision to "recover" is wrong. I cannot walk in your shoes. I'm not gay and I have never "burned" for another woman. I can tell you, however, that my neice is a normal, healthy young woman and the only obstacles she must overcome in her life are those created by the very ones who claim be "showing her the way."
A family member said tearfully about my neice - I'm just so afraid she'll be ostracized and ridiculed. My response? Well don't then!
It is illogical and I will never be convinced that God would purposely cause a person to be born with a "sin" or even to acquire that "sin" by some event beyond their control and then damn them to Hell for not overcoming it. You have said you do not condemn my neice, however, the very idea that she must "overcome" what is her natural state of existence is to imply that there is some negative associated with that lifestyle. The only negative is the stigma created by "Christians" and other homophobes who think that God looks down on gay people and points his bony finger in disgust. Meanwhile, they believe that same God will have mercy and grace for their continual judgmental, hateful, and prejudicial words.
In my opinion, if there was a Hell - and there isn't, the first tenants would be the hatemongers. Like the ones you see posting here. Thank God we all get the same measure of grace, karma, or call it what you will. Some of us have many lives to go before we reach our natural glorious state of existence. That is clearly reflected here.
Poly
Blessed beyond measure
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Gold Subscriber
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Re: Re: Re: On "Hell"
Re: Re: Re: On "Hell"
Psalm 5:5 "Thou hatest all workers of iniquity."
Psalm 5:6 " The Lord abhors the bloodthirsty man."
Psalm 11:5 "The Lord trieth the righteous, but the wicked and him that loveth violence His soul hates."
Psalm 45:7 "Thou loveth righteousness and hateth wickedness."
Romans 12:9 "Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor that which is evil."
Your god may not hate but the God of the bible hates. (I know, you don't believe in the bible.)
Re: Re: Re: On "Hell"
Psalm 5:5 "Thou hatest all workers of iniquity."
Psalm 5:6 " The Lord abhors the bloodthirsty man."
Psalm 11:5 "The Lord trieth the righteous, but the wicked and him that loveth violence His soul hates."
Psalm 45:7 "Thou loveth righteousness and hateth wickedness."
Romans 12:9 "Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor that which is evil."
Your god may not hate but the God of the bible hates. (I know, you don't believe in the bible.)