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ARGH!!! Calvinism makes me furious!!!

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  • #46
    We are all slaves ...

    By the way, gang, there's a difference between God's will being thwarted and someone resisting the Holy Spirit. The former refers to what He has decreed. The latter refers to rebellion in people. God decrees rebellion, and that decree cannot be thwarted. Judas could not resist the decrees of God, nor did he want to. We are all slaves to our natures, preferences, proclivities and circumstances -- and in some cases, slaves to the righteousness of Christ. You never choose what you do not want to choose. Ever.

    Jim

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    • #47
      The hardest part ...

      Clete, whilst you're awaiting Zman's answer, I wonder if you might take a stab at the questions I asked.

      I wrotes: My question is how does the Open Theist worship a god who would not prevent this from happening?

      And ...

      Along those same lines, here's a question for the Open Theists: Surely God could see what was transpiring as the 9/11 terrorists prepared to kill thousands of people. Would it have been against your theology for God to have figured out some way to prevent them from getting on those planes? (e.g. traffic jam? food poisoning? falling-piano or guardrail?) If yes, why? If no, why wouldn't God do everything He could to stop that tragedy?

      :j

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Knight

        You don't like responding directly do you Z Man?

        Originally posted by Z Man

        Did God give Job his afflictions? Did God give Egypt thier plagues? Did God blind Zach, the father of John? Did God blind Paul? Did God cripple all those people that Jesus had to heal? Does God not do these things to be glorified?




        Unless you figure out another way to interpret those Scriptures, you either

        a) Believe the Word of God is contridictory (refer to the passages of Scriptures I presented earlier)

        b) Totally ignore the passages that speak plainly and clearly about the soveriengty of God and how His will is never "frustrated", or thwarted

        Which is it?
        Why don't YOU directly respond? Eat your own words hypocrite...
        Question what you believe in, and then you'll know.

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        • #49
          Re: We are all slaves ...

          Originally posted by Hilston

          By the way, gang, there's a difference between God's will being thwarted and someone resisting the Holy Spirit. The former refers to what He has decreed. The latter refers to rebellion in people. God decrees rebellion, and that decree cannot be thwarted. Judas could not resist the decrees of God, nor did he want to. We are all slaves to our natures, preferences, proclivities and circumstances -- and in some cases, slaves to the righteousness of Christ. You never choose what you do not want to choose. Ever.

          Jim
          Jim, the point you are making is irrelevant for IF God predestines EVERYTHING there is no will other than His.

          Agreed?
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          • #50
            Originally posted by Z Man



            Why don't YOU directly respond? Eat your own words hypocrite...
            hypocrite????

            Ouch!

            OK.... I guess I am a hypocrite.

            Is there anything I can do about it?
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            • #51
              Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

              ZMan,

              The whole Bible is filled with one story after another about people NOT doing what God wants them to do. In places it says explicitly that people reject the will of God.
              To give just one example...
              Luke 7:30 "But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.”

              And Arminians do believe as do Calvinists that God cannot be frustrated or His will thrwarted. In this regard they are even less intellectually consistant than Calvinists.

              Resting in Him,
              Clete

              P.S. You know perfectly well that I have read my Bible and knew every one of you supposed proof texts. I know your own arguments better than you do. Nothing you posted requires a belief that God has predestined every single event that will ever occure. Every one of your verses, I freely accept as meaning what they say within their intended contect, and that they in no way conflict with the all the other hundreds of passages that directly indicate the reverse of what Calvinism teaches.
              Can you say the same? Even for my one single verse?
              Do you believe that Luke 7:30 means what it says? If not, please explain to our audience how Luke 7:30 doesn't mean what it clearly says but rather it means precisely the opposite of what it says. That of course it wasn't really God's will that the Pharsisees get baptized by John. That's clearly what the text says, but that's not what it means. Please, by all means, explain that to us.
              Clete,

              We've been over this before. Remember?
              Question what you believe in, and then you'll know.

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              • #52
                quote: "Proverbs 1:24 Because I have called and you refused, I have stretched out my hand and no one regarded, 25 Because you disdained all my counsel, And would have none of my rebuke,

                "disdained all my counsel"??? How can that be Z Man? God's word contradicts your word plain and simple."


                proverbs 1:24 is refering to wisdom that calls aloud in the street (proverbs 1:20) and makes her speech: ...because i have called and you refused, i stretched out my hand and no one regarded..." this is WISDOM talking here and proverbs 1:20-33 is a warning against rejecting wisdom...
                "i seek not a long life but a full one, like yours, Jesus Christ." - Jim Elliot

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Knight

                  hypocrite????

                  Ouch!

                  OK.... I guess I am a hypocrite.

                  Is there anything I can do about it?
                  You're responsible for your own actions.
                  Question what you believe in, and then you'll know.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Z Man

                    You're responsible for your own actions.
                    I am??? How so?
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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Knight

                      I am??? How so?
                      What do you mean "how so"? As long as you are alive, you are responsible...
                      Question what you believe in, and then you'll know.

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                      • #56
                        Re: Couldn't He stop it?

                        Jim!

                        Where the heck have you been? TOL is way less exciting without Hilston! Great to see you're back!


                        Originally posted by Hilston
                        Clete writes:My question is how does the Open Theist worship a god who would not prevent this from happening?

                        Along those same lines, here's a question for the Open Theists: Surely God could see what was transpiring as the 9/11 terrorists prepared to kill thousands of people. Would it have been against your theology for God to have figured out some way to prevent them from getting on those planes? (e.g. traffic jam? food poisoning? falling-piano or guardrail?) If yes, why? If no, why wouldn't God do everything He could to stop that tragedy?
                        The short answer is that if people could not do evil they could not do good either. If they could do evil but chose not to then that would be great but love requires volition and volition requires genuine freedom of choice (contingency). If the freedom to do hate and to do wrongly is removed then the ability of love and to do rightly goes with it. Even if the act that would otherwise be considered good is performed, the goodness or rightness of it is meaningless if freedom of choice is discounted.
                        We therefore worship a God who risks rejection in order to gain a real love relationship with His creation, which was the whole perpose of His creating us to begin with.

                        Resting in Him,
                        Clete
                        Last edited by Clete; May 27th, 2004, 06:13 AM.
                        sigpic
                        "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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                        • #57
                          Z Man says there is no difference between Hitler and John the Baptist after all, according to Z Man they are both equally fulfilling God's will. God is the orchestrator of 9/11 AND the Holocaust. God had James Byrd dragged to death behind a truck and He murdered 161 people in the Oklahoma City bombings.

                          Can you believe this????

                          Can you believe a person could think such wicked things about God???

                          Isaiah 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
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                          • #58
                            [QUOTE]Originally posted by Knight

                            John 5:40 “But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

                            Thwarting God's will is a theme that runs through the entire Bible Z Man. After all... that's why we need Jesus!


                            read john 5:39...this says "you diligently study the Scriptures because you think that be them you possess eternal life. these are the Scriptures that testitfy about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life." read it in context...Jesus is saying that here He is...that diligently studying doesn't equate eternal life...but through Him we can come to the Father...you can't just read one verse and that's that...you gotta look at it in context...
                            "i seek not a long life but a full one, like yours, Jesus Christ." - Jim Elliot

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Z Man

                              What do you mean "how so"? As long as you are alive, you are responsible...
                              But what can I do within myself to change my ways?

                              What if God's will is that I be a hypocrite?

                              Can I thwart His will and repent?????
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                              • #60
                                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: AHHHHH calvinism makes me furious!!!

                                Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

                                No sir! I am asking you!

                                You said, "All things exist and are done for this exact purpose. It's the reason we exist and the reason all things happen; to glorify God.", not Job!
                                Job 42:1-6
                                Then Job answered the Lord and said: "I know that You can do everything, And that no purpose of Yours can be withheld from You. You asked, 'Who is this who hides counsel without knowledge?' Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know. Listen, please, and let me speak; You said, 'I will question you, and you shall answer Me.' "I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear, But now my eye sees You. Therefore I abhor myself, And repent in dust and ashes."

                                Job isn't the only one who realized that all things are done according to His purposes:

                                Romans 9:22-23
                                What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory
                                I would like an answer!

                                In what way does the act of raping a five year old boy who dies a week later due to a swollen brain that was caused by the severe violent shaking inflicted as his attacker performed his crime glorify God?

                                Resting in Him,
                                Clete
                                Who knows. I'm not God. And neither are you. I think it is very foolish and ignorant and extremely unwise of you to think that God cannot bring any good out of such an act of evil. He sees the big picture. He knows who's lives would be affected through such an ordeal. That's why I said, "Ask Job". I was implying that God put Job through such turmoil and affliction to show and display His glory. Jesus was killed to display the glory of God. God brought plagues upon Egypt (even killed the firstborn of everything, humans included) to display His glory. There are many, many, countless more examples in the Bible of God bringing about calamity to display His glory.
                                Question what you believe in, and then you'll know.

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