ARGH!!! Calvinism makes me furious!!!

[Clete]

Originally posted by Z Man

Clete,

We've been over this before. Remember?

Yes I do remember but we aren't talking about His "Ultimate will" you said that God cannot be frustated and that His will cannot be thwarted. Please explain how Luke 7:30 is consistant with this view or is it you who believe the Bible to be contradictory?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by granite1010

I just imagine both sides dying, going to heaven, and getting ushered into a classroom. "Hey! Hey, folks! New arrivals! Attention please. Yeeeah. Great. Hey, can I have a show of hands? You TULIP guys? Five pointers? Even four and a half pointers, yeah, over there. Form a line. Super. And you folks? Rest of you? Over here please. Yeeep. Yeah, see, we've got some explaining to do."

Either DEPROGRAMMING FOR FREEWILLERS or DECONSTRUCTING CALVIN. One way or another, SOMEONE will have some re-education to go through...

I definitely have to agree with granite, on this. At least to a degree. I have a problem with people who are strictly one way or the other with Arminianism or Calvinism. I'm more of a middle ground. I do believe that God can afflict people. But I also don't believe God does afflict every disease. I do believe that all things work together for God's will. I believe that He sees bad things coming, but He's not responsible. God is good. He does nothing but good. As He is love, and does nothing but love. If God's going to afflict anyone with something, it's going to be someone that needs to be incapacitated.

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Knight

But what can I do within myself to change my ways?

What if God's will is that I be a hypocrite?

Can I thwart His will and repent?????

It's not God's will that you be a hypocrite; that would be your own will. It's not His will that we be filthy sinners; we sin because we want to. It's our will that keeps us from loving God. To repent is not to thwart God's will; rather, repenting is the act of God thwarting our own will, so that we may be free from our own bondage in sin...

 

[Hilston]

Drain bamage

Drain bamage

Knight,

You write:

Jim, the point you are making is irrelevant for IF God predestines EVERYTHING there is no will other than His.

Agreed?

I don't agree. Everyone has a will. The fact that God has decreed in advance every electrical signal in your brain and the reaction of every brain cell to every influence and circumstance in your existence does not preclude the fact that you actually weigh options and choose according to those multifarious influences.

Have you ever chosen an option you did not want to choose?

Jim

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Yes I do remember but we aren't talking about His "Ultimate will" you said that God cannot be frustated and that His will cannot be thwarted. Please explain how Luke 7:30 is consistant with this view or is it you who believe the Bible to be contradictory?

Resting in Him,
Clete

I really do not want to repeat myself. All the answers you look for are in that post I had supplied a link to.

 

[Hilston]

MCP

MCP

Knight writes:

But what can I do within myself to change my ways?

You could repent, if God decreed that for you.

Knight writes:

What if God's will is that I be a hypocrite?

You would not be able to thwart His will. Nor would you want to.

Knight writes:

Can I thwart His will ...

No; nor would you want to.

Knight writes:

... and repent?????

Only if He decreed that for you.

Knight writes:

Z Man says there is no difference between Hitler and John the Baptist after all, according to Z Man they are both equally fulfilling God's will.

Why didn't God expose Hitler to typhoid or come up with a way to stop him?

Knight writes:

God is the orchestrator of 9/11 AND the Holocaust.

Why didn't God let the landing gear snap off of one of those planes before takeoff?

Knight writes:

God had James Byrd dragged to death behind a truck ...

Why didn't God give those cretins a flat tire 5 miles before they even saw Byrd?

Knight writes:

... and He murdered 161 people in the Oklahoma City bombings.

Why didn't God make sure something happened to that Ryder van? Flat tire? Traffic jam?

According to the Open View, God sat idly by and did nothing, even though He could see it all happening before His very eyes. As the Master Chess Player, certainly He could see it coming, yet He did nothing.

Knight writes:

Can you believe this????

Can you believe a person could think such wicked things about God???

Indeed.

Jim

 

[boogerhead]

Originally posted by lighthouse

I definitely have to agree with granite, on this. At least to a degree. I have a problem with people who are strictly one way or the other with Arminianism or Calvinism. I'm more of a middle ground. I do believe that God can afflict people. But I also don't believe God does afflict every disease. I do believe that all things work together for God's will. I believe that He sees bad things coming, but He's not responsible. God is good. He does nothing but good. As He is love, and does nothing but love. If God's going to afflict anyone with something, it's going to be someone that needs to be incapacitated.

often our concept of what is "good" is what is "good for us" or what WE think is in our best interest...
we know from romans 8:28 that God works all things for the good of those who love Him...but what we think is "for our good" isn't really at all...we tend to have a pretty selfish outlook on what is "good"

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by boogerhead

often our concept of what is "good" is what is "good for us" or what WE think is in our best interest...
we know from romans 8:28 that God works all things for the good of those who love Him...but what we think is "for our good" isn't really at all...we tend to have a pretty selfish outlook on what is "good"

Indeed. An excellent point BH! :thumb:

1Peter 3:17
For it is better, if it is the will of God, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil.

For some reason, many Christians believe that since we are the "children of God" that there is no way He would do us any "harm". How selfish! If He is not willing to spare His own Son from turmoil and afflicition, then why do so many people reject the notion that God afflicts sinful mankind???

 

[boogerhead]

Originally posted by Z Man

Indeed. An excellent point BH! :thumb:

1Peter 3:17
For it is better, if it is the will of God, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil.

For some reason, many Christians believe that since we are the "children of God" that there is no way He would do us any "harm". How selfish! If He is not willing to spare His own Son from turmoil and afflicition, then why do so many people reject the notion that God afflicts sinful mankind???

exactly...He didn't spare His own Son...and "now if we are chilldren, then we are heirs, heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory." romans 8:17

 

[Lighthouse]

Yeah, I know that what we percieve to be good, is not always what is good. But someone who develops cancer, out of nowhere, and is a good person that lives a good life, then it is not good. God had no reason to give them cancer, therefore He did not give them cancer.

 

[okinrus]

God allowed the women to have cancer. It's kind of like Job. God did not destroy Job's house but he allowed Satan to. Perhaps this is what she is saying?

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by Z Man

I really do not want to repeat myself. All the answers you look for are in that post I had supplied a link to.

You didn't explain then and you refuse to explain now.

No surprise really. It cannot be done is a logically coherent way.
The simple fact of the matter is that people do things that God does not want them to do every single day. And that Hell is reserved for those who refuse to glorify God.

I really cannot understand how you and other Calvinist are totally unable to see the totally inconsistent nature of your own belief system. Especially the Jim Hilston style of compatiblism, it is completely self contradictory and obviously so. It's truly as if there is something blinding you guys. Calvinism is so hopelessly self contradictory that it should be the easiest thing in the world to debunk and it is, but it as if there is this wall, or some sort of barrier that prevents many from seeing it. I really don't get it! It's not as if you guys are stupid, you're obviously not! So why is it that you can see that 2+2=7 is not correct but you can't understand that if Knight was hypocritical because there was no other option other than to be hypocritical then to say that he had a choice in the matter is self contradictory! Even if you say he wanted to be hypocritical then that is meaningless because the very fact that he wanted to is itself a predestined unalterable fact, right? It's not as if you guys can say that Knight's personal history has led him down a path that resulted in the evil desire within him that caused him to consciously decide to be hypocritical because you only compound your own logical problem. Everything that Knight has ever thought, or done, or said, or felt, or experienced in any way was not due to his own action but due to God's predestined will being performed. In a Calvinist worldview Knight is a puppet on strings as are we all and to insist that one repent in order to be within God's will is self contradictory and in fact could only be done if God Himself pulled the repent string in His cosmic puppet show. Knight would have no more culpability for his actions than Pinocchio would.

Resting in Him,
Clete

P.S. By the way, I do not actually beleive that Knight was being hypocritical.

 

[Rolf Ernst]

Peiffer--I guess you never read that the things thatare done by the wicked in darkness should not even be mentioned.

Why do you delight in rolling their gross evils across your own tongue??

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Re: Drain bamage

Re: Drain bamage

Originally posted by Hilston

Knight,

You write:I don't agree. Everyone has a will. The fact that God has decreed in advance every electrical signal in your brain and the reaction of every brain cell to every influence and circumstance in your existence does not preclude the fact that you actually weigh options and choose according to those multifarious influences.

Have you ever chosen an option you did not want to choose?

Jim

We have been down this road before and for all intents and purposes your theory is the same as not having a will of our own.

Your idea of "weighing options" is simply for show and the "options" aren't really options at all.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Re: MCP

Re: MCP

Originally posted by Hilston
Why didn't God expose Hitler to typhoid or come up with a way to stop him?

Why didn't God let the landing gear snap off of one of those planes before takeoff?

Why didn't God give those cretins a flat tire 5 miles before they even saw Byrd?

Why didn't God make sure something happened to that Ryder van? Flat tire? Traffic jam?

According to the Open View, God sat idly by and did nothing, even though He could see it all happening before His very eyes. As the Master Chess Player, certainly He could see it coming, yet He did nothing.

God isn't the magic babysitter in the sky.

God created a reality and a universe for us that allows us to succeed and fail. It allows us to either follow His will or reject His will. When we follow His will we are rewarded and He guides our steps. When we reject His will we are not guided and and He dopes not direct our steps.

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; 6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths. 7 Do not be wise in your own eyes; Fear the LORD and depart from evil.

With this design we are free to love God with our will which is a true love which is the ultimate purpose of creation in the first place.

Joshua 24:15 “And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”

 

[beanieboy]

If someone says that "God gave me cancer to give me strength", you can take that a lot of ways.

God created Satan. He didn't have to. If he was all knowing, he wouldn't have done it, and everything would be perfect all the time.

Technically, God gives someone cancer simply because everything exists because of God. And when bad things happen, you can witness the love of God.

But I don't think he infects you to show what a good God he is when you are healed.

It's more complicated than that.

For example, when are you moved the most in a friendship, when they are sitting around with you watching TV, or when you really need someone to talk to, and they say they will meet you? It's usually when bad things happen that you truly demonstrate your love for one another. I think it is the same with God, because we are a reflection.

Whaddya think?

 

[Ya'nar#1]

Thanks for your 'righteous indignation' Knight!

Thanks for your 'righteous indignation' Knight!

Originally posted by Knight

P.S. Please note that this thread is in the "Exclusively Christian Theology" forum so if you are coming in here to mock God please think otherwise.

I would rather discuss this concept from a Christian or biblical stance.

Thanks in advance for your consideration.

Knight, you are absolutely right!

It IS very disconcerting when people blame God for the evil that is in the world through sin. I have heard people say God is responsible for all kinds of things, from evil, to just plain physical or emotional "pain" as a result of the outworkings of sin in our bodies and minds.

But whatever goes wrong in this world, IT IS NOT GOD'S FAULT!

It was our older brother and sister, Adam and Eve, that brought rebellion against God into this world, and that act began the development of sin. Sin's malignant effects have devastated this planet and all it's inhabitants--animals and plants included. We suffer because of sin. Yet God, in His benevolent mercy and justice, has helped us all along the way--or none of us would long survive. One of the beneficial effects of the flood was the shortening of man's life span, in order that we would not have to suffer this life for a thousand years. It is your righteous indignation, Knight, that objects so strongly to these wrong-headed people.

Sin brings pain and death. Not God.

Thanks Knight for this reminder!

:thumb:


May God Bless!

--Ya'nar rincess:

 

[beanieboy]

Hm. Some of it we bring upon ourselves.

If you get lung cancer and smoke a lot, well, blaming God is silly.

But my Grandmother died of a cyst the size of a grapefruit on her ovary. She never smoked.

So, sometimes these things happen, and they work for God.

 

[smaller]

OK… I gotta vent.

I try to be calm and I try to be patient with those that credit bad things to God via Calvinistic theology. But there are some times I simply can’t be patient or cordial because this twisted sick, perverted theology is sometimes too much to handle.

Today I was listening to a Christian station on the radio. And there was a public service spot which featured a woman explaining a heart wrenching story. She explained that she was diagnosed with Leukemia on her child’s first birthday. She explained that she was treated with intense chemotherapy. She went on to say that she was comforted by God (which of course is fantastic). But then she said that God have given her the cancer so God would also give her the strength to get through it.

Of course Mr. Knight would prefer to think that God could not make a body that was NOT susceptible to cancer OR that cancer was created by MANKIND or that THE DEVIL has these special ANTI-creative powers, ALL OF WHICH exist OUTSIDE of the WILL OF GOD.

Mr. Knight would also overlook the FACT that HE HIMSELF will not escape this temporal life, but ridicules others in their attempts to RECONCILE these issues and BLAME IT ON THEIR SUPPOSED ignorace and rest upon his OWN strength and knowledge when facing this FACT OF SICKNESS and DEATH.

surprise surprise.....

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Can you imagine that?

Yes, SURELY it is ALL THEIR FAULTS....he says in typical accuser fashion...

Can you imagine a women actual thinking that God had given her cancer???

That is just plain sick!

Yes ALL THESE THINGS just popped up in CREATION all on THEIR OWN without any CONSENT of God.

What ever happened to understanding that it was man’s sin (our rebellion) that brought sickness and death into the world? What ever happened to placing the responsibility for bad things with mankind? So now God is a disease dispenser?

Yes, sickness and death simply MATERIALIZED out of THIN AIR. ALL the responsibility for ANY bad thing is MAN'S PROBLEM and MAN must get themselves OUT OF IT.

What absurdity.

People are just plain stupid.

Of which because of the WAY YOU THINK you are BETTER....

lol

You need a FASTER CHARIOT my friend. Yours is more than ANTIquated. One made of LIGHT. Can you MAKE LIGHT??? Maybe lend a sympathetic EAR? Comfort someone in SUFFERINGs???

I doubt it. You will do just as you are COMPELLED to do.

Blame and ACCUSE.

smaller

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by beanieboy
God created Satan. He didn't have to. If he was all knowing, he wouldn't have done it, and everything would be perfect all the time.

Beanie you are aware that God did not create Satan as a evil creature right?