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Does God know all things that are, have been, and will be?

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  • #61
    Originally posted by ghost View Post
    It does limit God, it takes away any ability to no longer know evil thoughts and acts done by man, and it takes away His ability to think a new thought.
    I disagree. You could turn any number of negatives into positives:

    "Holiness limits a person for it lessens their ability to sin."

    "Knowledge limits a person (or God) because it takes away their ability to be ignorant."

    "Fullness limits a person because it takes away their ability to be unfulfilled."

    God is not limited by knowledge, because knowledge is not a lack, ignorance is.

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by ghost View Post
      For example, God knew and chose Judas, not because He had an eternal view into what Judas would do, but because He fully knew a man who would choose to betray.
      Ghost,

      If you are going to go down a path, at least go down the Arminian path. Arminians believe God has created a future and then looks down the corridors of that future. God will see who will accept the Good News and who will not. God then basically rubber stamps these decisions, so that those that He sees that accept the Gospel are declared elect, and those that He sees who will reject the Gospel are declared lost.

      Going down the open view path, a view that denies God can truly know the future since it does not exist yet, is going to limit God far more than you can imagine.

      You seemed surprised that all Protestants and Catholics believe God knows the future. (Not just us meany Calvinists.) I don't think you have thought this all out quite yet. Examine what those that have come before us have to say on the topic before you make a radical change of view.

      AMR
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      • #63
        Originally posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
        Ghost,

        If you are going to go down a path, at least go down the Arminian path. Arminians believe God has created a future and then looks down the corridors of that future. God will see who will accept the Good News and who will not. God then basically rubber stamps these decisions, so that those that He sees that accept the Gospel are declared elect, and those that He sees who will reject the Gospel are declared lost.

        Going down the open view path, a view that denies God can truly know the future since it does not exist yet, is going to limit God far more than you can imagine.

        You seemed surprised that all Protestants and Catholics believe God knows the future. (Not just us meany Calvinists.) I don't think you have thought this all out quite yet. Examine what those that have come before us have to say on the topic before you make a radical change of view.

        AMR
        How about you stick to the topic (for once). I'm well aware of the "settled view", so why don't you address my post that responds to your link that does nothing to support that position.

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by zippy2006 View Post
          I disagree. You could turn any number of negatives into positives:

          "Holiness limits a person for it lessens their ability to sin."

          "Knowledge limits a person (or God) because it takes away their ability to be ignorant."

          "Fullness limits a person because it takes away their ability to be unfulfilled."

          God is not limited by knowledge, because knowledge is not a lack, ignorance is.
          God is well aware of evil, but you claim that God has evil in His mind perpetually in eternity. I don't see any Biblical support for this, and it is an absolute truth under a "settled view".

          Comment


          • #65
            Guys

            let me pose this question:

            When God said Gen:1:3: And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
            4: And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

            Did God know or foresee that there would be that which would not let there be light? Seeing that He divided the light from the darkness.
            ***************

            We know in the previous verse that “darkness was upon the face of the deep” so before and after God said let there be light, darkness still existed.

            Therefore God knows, that which is not life, still is. You can go out side and pick up some dirt that has no life therein. Can God anticipate what Adam and Eve would do in the Garden? Yes He owns both side of the board that is played on, and all the pieces, like a chess set, for instance. There is no thing in His creation that can happen without His knowledge, and nothing can happen outside of His creation.

            God is complete with or without His creation in that He is forever and lives forever. And God knows all that He has said in His Presence, and nothing is made with out His Word. Therefore He knows all that is made. God is eternal He sees eternal, God is forever, God sees forever, no matter were He looks.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by ghost View Post
              God is well aware of evil, but you claim that God has evil in His mind perpetually in eternity.
              What do you mean "God has evil in His mind"? I believe that God sees the evil actions of humans. Nothing more. He sees Adam's free and evil choice from all eternity, but it is Adam's choice, not God's.

              The only difference is that I believe God sees Adam's evil choice from eternity, and you believe He didn't see it until it temporally happened. We both believe that God sees Adam's evil because Adam freely choose it. I do not believe that God knew Adam's evil before he logically (rather than temporally) choose to commit it.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
                GhostThe only group denying God's knowledge of past, present, and future are open theists, who deny God can know the future.
                Why does Moses say God brought the animals before Adam?


                *still waiting*
                Jesus saves completely. http://www.climatedepot.com/ http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

                Titus 1

                For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped

                Ephesians 5

                11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by zippy2006 View Post
                  What do you mean "God has evil in His mind"?
                  If, as you and others suggest, God knows all things that are, have been, or will be eternally, then evil is ever present in the mind of God, for God is not human (we forget and/or are ignorant of much evil).
                  I believe that God sees the evil actions of humans. Nothing more.
                  Okay, when is God aware of them?
                  He sees Adam's free and evil choice from all eternity, but it is Adam's choice, not God's.
                  Then, like I said, you believe that Adam's choice, as well as all thoughts and acts of all men has at all times been ever present in the mind of God. In your view, evil thoughts and acts have never been apart from the mind of God.
                  I believe God sees Adam's evil choice from eternity
                  I do not believe that God knew Adam's evil before he logically (rather than temporally) choose to commit it.
                  Can you explain the difference between this apparent contradiction? Thanks.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by DPMartin View Post
                    Guys

                    let me pose this question:
                    okay

                    When God said Gen:1:3: And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
                    4: And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

                    Did God know or foresee that there would be that which would not let there be light? Seeing that He divided the light from the darkness.
                    ***************
                    Yes, God knew darkness would be where there is no light. So, when did God create light, not the physical aspect, but conceptually?

                    We know in the previous verse that “darkness was upon the face of the deep” so before and after God said let there be light, darkness still existed.
                    "God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all". How do you think that verse fits with the other, just curious.

                    Therefore God knows, that which is not life, still is. You can go out side and pick up some dirt that has no life therein. Can God anticipate what Adam and Eve would do in the Garden? Yes He owns both side of the board that is played on, and all the pieces, like a chess set, for instance. There is no thing in His creation that can happen without His knowledge, and nothing can happen outside of His creation.
                    And this discussion is really dealing with the things God knows of His creation outside His creation. Have all things not only been in the mind of God in eternity, but are perpetually in His mind eternally in eternity.

                    God is complete with or without His creation in that He is forever and lives forever. And God knows all that He has said in His Presence, and nothing is made with out His Word. Therefore He knows all that is made. God is eternal He sees eternal, God is forever, God sees forever, no matter were He looks.
                    Then you conclude that all evil thoughts and acts of men are perpetually and eternally "forever" in the mind of God? God has never been apart from the knowledge of all evil thoughts and deeds?

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by ghost View Post
                      okay

                      Yes, God knew darkness would be where there is no light. So, when did God create light, not the physical aspect, but conceptually?

                      "God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all". How do you think that verse fits with the other, just curious.

                      And this discussion is really dealing with the things God knows of His creation outside His creation. Have all things not only been in the mind of God in eternity, but are perpetually in His mind eternally in eternity.

                      Then you conclude that all evil thoughts and acts of men are perpetually and eternally "forever" in the mind of God? God has never been apart from the knowledge of all evil thoughts and deeds?
                      I believe you have him between Scylla and Charybdis....

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by bybee View Post
                        I believe you have him between Scylla and Charybdis....
                        I am just taking the settled view to it's logical conclusions. Much doctrine has been built on that foundation, and I find their beliefs absurd and unsupported by the Bible. Attributing to God things that the Bible does not teach leads to an abundance of error on either side of this topic. I want the truth, not personal agendas and theories. Just because tradition or the masses have always held to certain beliefs does not make them true.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by ghost View Post
                          If, as you and others suggest, God knows all things that are, have been, or will be eternally, then evil is ever present in the mind of God, for God is not human (we forget and/or are ignorant of much evil).
                          Right.

                          Okay, when is God aware of them?
                          Eternally, God is not a temporal being.

                          Then, like I said, you believe that Adam's choice, as well as all thoughts and acts of all men has at all times been ever present in the mind of God. In your view, evil thoughts and acts have never been apart from the mind of God.
                          Right, God always knows of the evil that has been, will be and is committed. So what?

                          That's why the cross was so heavy and why the drops of blood fell at Gethsemane. God knows all evil in its entirety. He forgets nothing. That is why repentance is so phenomenal, because what has been turned from is known so thoroughly.

                          I do not believe that God knew Adam's evil before he logically (rather than temporally) choose to commit it.
                          Can you explain the difference between this apparent contradiction? Thanks.
                          What contradiction? God does not exist in time, therefore when He knows something it is not due to the passage of time. He knows it because it exists, it's particular place in time does not affect His knowledge of it.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by ghost View Post
                            Okay Lon, but Calvinism attempts to do this by claiming that God knows everything eternally, which is fabricating a God that is very disturbing, and in fact not a good God. It would be impossible for Him to be.


                            Yet, Calvinism claims to, and attributes to Him eternal knowledge of all things. Would you like to state that Calvinism is wrong about this? I believe that you believe that God is good, and He cannot be if He knows all things eternally.
                            Why? I knew Saddam Husein was a bad guy and that he was wiping out men, women, and children and that before we went into Bagdad, he was still doing it. Knowing it doesn't make me responsible. I ask again, why would God having prescience lead you to this conclusion?

                            Originally posted by ghost View Post
                            Really? God is evil and good? Are you sure? And He never gives us the idea that He knows all things eternally.
                            God is the source of all things good, for God is good, not evil.
                            You are essentially making evil a thing. I don't understand evil that way.



                            Originally posted by ghost View Post
                            And here is the crux of your problem... If God knows all things evil eternally, then they are just as much a part of God as His goodness. If His foreknowledge consists of every evil perpetrated by man and is eternally in His Mind than evil is part of who God is. Do you believe as Nang does, that all things earthy are eternally known, or worse, decreed by God? Do you believe, and suggest, that Calvinism teaches that every murder, rape, homosexual act, child molestation, and other detestable behaviors have ALWAYS been a part of the knowledge of God, making them part of who He is?
                            The way I understand this is that everything we do is from God. Sin warps this, it isn't a separate thing persay. I mean, God made our hands and a knife in it isn't wicked of itself. Things aren't wicked, people are, and it has come not by God's desiring it, but by man's separation from God in depravity. It is specifically because we are 'detached' from God that evil exists. Going back to my analogy, it is not good that my children's rooms are messy and I agree with you that God has delegated responsiblity to us. We messed up and there is evil in this world. The Calvinist position is that it is all God's and that we are responsible with what is God's. We believe there is a reason God allows evil (allows, not desires):

                            Mat 13:24 He put out another parable to them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field.
                            Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed darnel among the wheat and went his way.
                            Mat 13:26 But when the blade had sprung up and had produced fruit, then the darnel also appeared.
                            Mat 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said to him, Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? Then where have the darnel come from?
                            Mat 13:28 He said to them, An enemy has done this. The servants said to him, Then do you want us to go and gather them up?
                            Mat 13:29 But he said, No, lest while you gather up the darnel you also root up the wheat with them.
                            Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest. And in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, First gather together the darnel and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my granary.
                            Originally posted by ghost View Post
                            It doesn't matter what is new to us. Forget about us, we are discussing what YOU (Calvinism) claim that God knows eternally (all things). Either He does or He does not. If YOU claim He does, then God has never been separated from evil, for it is in His mind eternally (according to you).
                            Explain this further to me so I understand you, please. Are you saying that we invented sin and that God was completely unaware? I'm not following this line of thinking. Didn't God plan for Our Lord Jesus Christ before any of this happened (Revelation 13:8; 1 Peter 1:20)?
                            My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
                            Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
                            Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
                            Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
                            No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
                            Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

                            ? Yep

                            Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

                            ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

                            Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by zippy2006 View Post
                              God always knows of the evil that has been, will be and is committed. So what?
                              Okay, I believe you believe this. Thanks for your input.

                              Side issue: Do you also believe that those in Christ who have eternal life will also perpetually know all the evil thoughts and deeds in eternity? If not, why not?

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Nick M View Post
                                Why does Moses say God brought the animals before Adam?


                                *still waiting*
                                "To see what he would name them?" -No
                                Because God gave man dominion (responsibility) over them.
                                How does that support the open view?
                                My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
                                Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
                                Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
                                Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
                                No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
                                Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

                                ? Yep

                                Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

                                ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

                                Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

                                Comment

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