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  • #91
    Pardon me if get I bit blunt, but the idea of murdering babies does that to me.....

    Rape pregnancies where the family will only destroy the child by lack of love anyway etc.. there seem to be many issues that people have with this, and to be honest, I don't think anyone can say what is right for everyone..
    If I have four children, and find that I just don't like one of them, and fear that I will just be so bad to this kid that it will miserable for him, can I kill him?

    And if you don't think that anyone can say what it right for everyone, then you have just excluded yourself from saying that statement for you are saying it is right for everyone not to say what is right for everyone. It is self-refuting.

    burying people under a pile of Laws, and moral condecention may feel good.. but isn't a Fruit of the Spirit.
    Really?? My Bible says that one of the functions of the Spirit is to convict the world of sin.

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren
      Pardon me if get I bit blunt, but the idea of murdering babies does that to me.....
      Being blunt is fine.. as long as we agree there is not a need for rudeness..

      If I have four children, and find that I just don't like one of them, and fear that I will just be so bad to this kid that it will miserable for him, can I kill him?
      I have 2 children.. they where born in Love, and with that in mind. I take it your children where too.. Does God tell you that if you don't like one of them it would be okay to kill them? Your argument is made from a stance of passion, and I understand that.. but taking my words to places they never went does not make a point for you.

      Where your children born from a rape? Have you ever had to carry a child born from rape? Would you be able to love a child born from a man who committed evil, killed a friend of yours, sodomized you, and then purposely gets you pregnant? Do you know how devasting that is to someone? Do you truly believe YOU have the right to judge that person and then look down upon them from your supposedly sinless pedastal?

      Or, are the commandments of your Christ not what you want to follow? "Love thy neighbor as you love thyself". Have you never ever been at a low point in life where a decision you have made has not been of God? Do you think that ALL the people who decide to abort a child do so "just because" they don't like the child? Please be real.. this is a passionate subject yes, but if you have never been in these peoples shoes, do you really believe you can cast final judgment upon them? Or is that Gods job?

      Matthew 5:43-44
      43 "You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbor[1] and hate your enemy.' 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,


      What of the commands you say give you the right to Judge?

      Romans 13:9
      For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not bear false witness," "You shall not covet," and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."


      And if you don't think that anyone can say what it right for everyone, then you have just excluded yourself from saying that statement for you are saying it is right for everyone not to say what is right for everyone. It is self-refuting.
      DeeDee.. I have read a lot of your posts. You are a smart woman, and I respect your opinions - even if I don't go along with all of them. You know full well what I was getting at.. this is a pointless statement.. you know that I meant that no one person can say what is right for another.. and yes, I know that means me too. I said at the end of my post that it was an opinion. Please, lets try and remain within the context of what is being discussed, and not start picking apart the way people say things "just because".
      Really?? My Bible says that one of the functions of the Spirit is to convict the world of sin.
      Funny enough, my bible says that too.. but then my bible tells me that Christs message is what is important, and I try to define my views based upon THAT. And the verse that 'negates' the command to convict is listed above in Romans 13:9.

      Now, I'll say again, my last post, and this post, are just opinions... and mine at that. They are not meant to be solutions to the worlds problems, they where my thoughts on the topic. Why is it that so many Christians are ready to jump down other peoples throats around here at the drop of a hat.. sheesh..

      IN Love and Peace

      JCAtheist
      Last edited by JCAtheist; November 30th, 2002, 12:53 PM.
      Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. --1 Corinthians 13:6

      Couldn't happen by chance?... Rarity by itself shouldn't necessarily be evidence of anything. When one is dealt a bridge hand of thirteen cards, the probability of being dealt that particular hand is less than one in 600 billion. Still, it would be absurd for someone to be dealt a hand, examine it carefully, calculate that the probability of getting it is less than one in 600 billion, and then conclude that he must not have been dealt that very hand because it is so very improbable. ~ John Allen Paulos

      Comment


      • #93
        Where your children born from a rape? Have you ever had to carry a child born from rape? Would you be able to love a child born from a man who committed evil, killed a friend of yours, sodomized you, and then purposely gets you pregnant? Do you know how devasting that is to someone?
        what about that child? what if such a child was reading your post and he gets the impression that he is less worthy of love? So what if it took more grace for a mother to love such a child. He is still made in the image of God and carries all the dignity and worth that comes from that and has as much of a right to live and be happy and know that he is loved and cherished.

        I take it your children where too..
        *ahem*

        you really need to read the first page of this thread.
        Last edited by 1013; November 30th, 2002, 01:57 PM.

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by 1013


          what about that child? what if such a child was reading your post and he gets the impression that he is less worthy of love? So what if it took more grace for a mother to love such a child. He is still made in the image of God and carries all the dignity and worth that comes from that and has as much of a right to live and be happy and know that he is loved and cherished.
          Yes, what about that child.. living in the womb, feeling hate and anger from the mother at having to bare them.. does it happen? Yes..

          Who said they where unworthy of love? Putting words into my mouth doesn't change what I have said about how some of these people feel, and that THEY MAKE A MISTAKE AND MAYBE DECIDE TO ABORT (caps for large emphasis and not shouting).

          Yes that child carries all that you say, and so when (just like a 5 year old innocent who gets hit by a drunk driver) this happens, God still takes care of them.. the price the person who commits the sin will be levied when they are judged by God, not by you and me.

          Now, have I ever said that it was right? Did I say that I personally feel that pregnant women can go around taking the lives of their unborn for no more reason that 'they don't want them'? Please..

          Of course these children deserve to be loved and cherished.. so.. how many rape victim children have you adopted lately? Or do you think that it is a Godly and healthy environment for them to stay with a parent or parents who does not love them, and did not want to carry them to term in the first place?

          Too many people are ready to mouth off about other peoples mistakes to the point of condemnation and final judgement, but aren't prepared to step up to the plate and help. You believe you are completely and morally in the right, then instead of just talking the talk, go and adopt a few of these children yourself, and provide them the love and caring that their parents aren't giving them now.. I can supply you with at least 100 places where there are an over abundance of children waiting to be adopted by those that can't wait to condemn others... I'm sorry, people who "Love their neighbor.."

          Plus, if you happen to see an unborn aborted child reading my posts, please alert me so I can apologise profusely to them for the act their mother and doctor committed upon them, and tell them that I will pray, as I do every night, for theirs and other childrens souls.

          I happen to know what it is like to see innocent children die, before and after birth.. I nearly lost my oldest Son to his disease of Cystic Fibrosis, and sat in Hospital with him for the first 6 weeks of his life.. and in that childrens ward where a few babies of parents who did not want or plan them, but where convinced to carry full term. Still, other innocent children died due to illness or disease.. who takes the blame for them?

          I was glad to see that some had come around and fallen in Love (the spirit of God) with their child and forgiven the circumstances.. but there where others that looked at those children with a palable feeling of pain and distress, and even hate. And that child will live with that feeling that it carried inside while in the womb, and if they are forced to stay with the parents, will grow up holding that hate.. yes, some get turned around, but if you think that the majority of these children have a happy ending, you are very sadly mistaken.

          SO these children go for adoption.. where more people who really don't love them, try and look after them, and a load of other 'unwanted' children... who end up as more teenage pregnancies etc.

          So yes, it is the parents and doctors faults that abortions take place when there is no 'valid' reason, and as I have stated, they will face their judgment with God. Gods only commands to us are to treat everyone with Love.. to treat people as WE wish to be treated.. with Love.. yes, some of these people may not deserve it in your eyes, but then, who is 'deserving' of Gods love and Grace? He gives it freely to all, just as Christ commanded us to.

          Instead of condemning these people who have made such dire mistakes in their lives, would it not be better to treat them with love and the fruits of the Spirit, in the hope that they will come around? Is it it better to prejudge them and cast them into an un-loving hell before God has his final judgement?

          No one is disputing the childs the innocent victim.. the only thing I'm disputing is how we then treat those that committed the crime, the reason for the crime, and the best solutions we can find for it. Plus the fact that none of us are perfect, and the thing we are discussing is a very personal thing for the person carrying. That's why I feel each case needs to be looked at individually, and if the parents decision is wrong, then someone has to step up to the plate to take care of that child.. not just throw them in some institution.. if the mothers life is in peril, we have no right to tell her to give her life up.. that MUST be her decision, just as it is her decision to come to, or go away from God. If you take the decision upon yourself, you carry the burden of the consequences, good or bad.

          But I tire of this, arguing over whether or not the child deserves love, or whether or not it's right or wrong.. of course it isn't the best, or even the right thing to do, and obviously the children deserve love... I certainly hope no one is trying to say I think differently.. it has NOT been the reason for my opinion.

          In Love and Peace

          JCAtheist

          PS - I can get passionate too.. a human weakness I'm told.. carnal

          And 1013, I did read the first page.. I said if the children that where born where obviously born in love, and in response to where she posted she has 4 children and posed a quesiton... I did not comment on the fate of the two in her first post. In fact, I was trying to avoid it, and avoid any personal 'positions'.

          And, in case everyone is missing it, I am also saying that DeeDee deserved to get as much love and aid in her decisions as anyone could have given her.. giving up a child cannot be an easy thing to do. I sincerely hope she had some loving compassionate Christians around her that where able to give her love, and help her understand - without condemnation - her mistake.

          Love and Peace
          Last edited by JCAtheist; November 30th, 2002, 02:39 PM.
          Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. --1 Corinthians 13:6

          Couldn't happen by chance?... Rarity by itself shouldn't necessarily be evidence of anything. When one is dealt a bridge hand of thirteen cards, the probability of being dealt that particular hand is less than one in 600 billion. Still, it would be absurd for someone to be dealt a hand, examine it carefully, calculate that the probability of getting it is less than one in 600 billion, and then conclude that he must not have been dealt that very hand because it is so very improbable. ~ John Allen Paulos

          Comment


          • #95
            Sorry..

            I see what you mean now, I did make a mistake in the posting when I put this:

            I take it your children where too..
            I was referring to the hyperthetical children, not DeeDee's children mentioned in her post..

            Sorry if that confused what I was saying..

            I know this is a very touchy subject.. I don't have a brother due to this, my wife doesn't have a child from a previous commitment, my sister denied me a nephew.. I'm not untouched by this.. even if it doesn't effect me physically personally.

            All I wanted to do was express the feelings of Christ that we should have towards each other, no matter what our personal feelings are, and watch that we aren't allowing our emotions to run away with us because we are so deeply effected. Always give up the Fruits of the SPirit, and maybe others will learn to as well, and then these things won't need to be discussed..

            My opinon.. sorry if it has offended anyone.

            In Love and Peace

            JCAtheist
            Last edited by JCAtheist; November 30th, 2002, 02:47 PM.
            Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. --1 Corinthians 13:6

            Couldn't happen by chance?... Rarity by itself shouldn't necessarily be evidence of anything. When one is dealt a bridge hand of thirteen cards, the probability of being dealt that particular hand is less than one in 600 billion. Still, it would be absurd for someone to be dealt a hand, examine it carefully, calculate that the probability of getting it is less than one in 600 billion, and then conclude that he must not have been dealt that very hand because it is so very improbable. ~ John Allen Paulos

            Comment


            • #96
              *sigh*

              To firechyld:
              ROFL On page two you apologized to Dee Dee for butting into the discussion and said you were bowing out for good. You have since posted several times since. Now you are defending yourself. Since you can not be counted on to keep your word, and my request for you to stop posting only encouraged you to post again, you can be assured that this will be my last post to you on this thread. We will see which one of us can keep their word. Unless of course you become a Christian. as I said in my previous post.
              Don't be deliberately obtuse. I backed away and removed myself from the debate. I have not attempted to make any moral stance, or to defend any position. Note my lack of involvement?

              However, this doesn't prevent me from being interested in the course the thread is taking. Dee Dee certainly didn't post anything saying that non-Christians couldn't read the friggin' thread. When an issue (non-central in nature) was raised about which no overly definite material was presented, I made a brief, fact based post, allowing people to see some of the material they were referring to. Having done so, and not wishing to get involved in said discussion, I backed out again... only to be lambasted by you.


              Firechyld,
              I do remember a story on Fox about a government funded study that says there is a link between breast cancer and abortion. I did a quick search just now, but couldn't find it. I'll do more research tomorrow when I have time and try to get some links to you.

              Also, this thread was originally intended to be for Christians only, and think that Dee Dee has made it abundantly clear that's what her wish is.

              Now she has teeth and can enforce that "Christians only" on this thread.
              Yup. See above. I was merely intending to provide a smidgeon of fact-based, non-emotive, non-involved postage to complement the moral musing provoked by the more emotionally involved and relevant posts.

              If you wish to dig up some resources, feel free to start a thread for 'em. Contrary to what jeremiah may think of me I'm not really getting my rocks off by posting on a thread I've said I'll not post on.... but that doesn't mean I'm not going to stick up for myself if accused of hijacking.

              So, please, people.... if you must make with the personal insults, at least start a thread about me. I think Freak has a How-To guide around here somewhere.

              To get back on topic: Dee Dee, you were saying.....?

              firechyld
              What Would Cthulhu Do?

              He who knows one religion knows none. - Max Muller

              That's the kind of liberal thinking that leads to being eaten! - Principal Snyder, Buffy the Vampire Slayer

              Abortions for some, miniature American flags for the rest! - Kang as Bob Dole, The Simpsons

              Comment


              • #97
                Not for the weak-kneed or easily offended

                Now to respond to some of JCA’s comments:
                I have thought on this issue often.. pro-life, pro-choice.. and what one should believe. Of course, this becomes a very personal matter, especially for Women, as they will bear the brunt of any decision made (although the man might after the decision).
                Actually it is the baby that bears the brunt of the decision made. The decision is not whether or not to have a baby. The decision is whether or not to have a living baby or a dead baby. Since when is the decision to kill one’s child strictly a personal matter?

                Obviously, on moral grounds, the extermination of an unborn child is a bad thing.
                Obviously the murder of a baby is a bad thing.
                However, most do seem to agree that there are instances where that decision should be left to the 'mother' - especially if her own life is in peril. Others will say that in some circumstances even aborting a early pregnancy because of the state of the 'parent(s)' may be necessary - brother/sister pregnancies, Rape pregnancies where the family will only destroy the child by lack of love anyway etc..
                Murdering a baby because of the sin of one or both of his parents is dead wrong. There are people standing in line who would want to adopt such children. So it is better to murder a baby because a family allegedly won’t love it?? What if a family decides it cannot love its one year old… can they now kill him?
                there seem to be many issues that people have with this, and to be honest, I don't think anyone can say what is right for everyone.. it seems to need to be looked at on an individual basis, and not by blanket lawing.
                I have no problem saying that murdering babies is wrong for everyone. It amazes me that you do.

                I have often wondered what happens to babies that die for various reasons when just days old.. I certainly can't believe that God denies them Heaven just because they haven't heard his Gospel and didn't choose to come to Him, so I would tend to believe that these children are taken care of..
                This is pretty irrelevant to the issue of whether or not abortion is morally acceptable.
                Now, the problem comes when we try to balance the wants and needs of society in with certain Laws from God.. when we try to make physical moral destinctions over spritually moral issues.
                Are you claiming that murder is a spiritually moral issue rather than a physical moral issue? You are seriously confusing the issue. Why stop with babies? The issue is a physical behavior that can and must be regulated. The only truly “spiritual” issues that we cannot truly regulate is the internal beliefs of a person. I cannot legislate that someone must believe that murder is wrong, but we can certainly legislate that the act of murder is criminally wrong and punishable.
                In effect, many times we end up taking on our own desires to see justice, instead of living with the command of "Love thy neighbor", and letting God deal with those that don't.
                Do you have that same attitude toward those who kill adults? Should they not be imprisoned? Should we just let God deal with them? Isn’t the baby our “neighbor” as well who has the same unalienable rights granted by his Creator, the foremost being the right to life?
                The people who choose to have abortions, and the people that do the operation, will have their day with God.
                And the point is?? That we should not care?? That we should not punish crimes?
                No, it may not be right, and yes it may tear you up inside to think about it - but then so can going to a Third World country and seeing millions of starving, uneducated, living in squallor, children. For us to judge the people that make such decisions does not seem right..
                Do you feel is equally wrong to judge murderers of adults? Does the fact that there is other evil in the world justify the murder of anyone?? For us to NOT JUDGE THE PEOPLE WHO MAKE SUCH DECISIONS is evil. This is said with the caveat that I have already recognized that many women have been deceived. They need to be educated not placated with nonsense. “Woe to those who call evil good and good evil….” Isaiah 5:20
                ALL of us have made, and will probably make more mistakes in our lives, any one of them may be a damning sin.. Only God has the answer to our end.
                So we allow the murder of children?? This is sick. I am sorry but there is no other way to say it.

                No matter what we might think personally, pro life or pro choice, we cannot prevent these things from happening.. you make a law banning it, I can guarentee you will only have underground clinics where there is no regulation etc.
                Then let’s throw out all laws since none of them are one hundred percent effective. The FACT is that this was not a major problem WHATSOEVER during the period of time that abortion was illegal, and that THE VAST MAJORITY OF ILLEGAL abortions were performed by licensed physicians. Let’s drop all homicide laws, people seem to be killing people anyways. And of course, [sarcasm] regulated murder is much more moral than unregulated murder [/sarcasm].
                People WILL make their own decisions.. as the Free Will given by God allows them to, but remember that these people are deserving of our love too.. just as we where deserving of Christs..
                Red herring, and a stinky one at that. Our love will tell them the truth…. that the murder of children is evil and reprehensible. Only the most evil of cultures tolerates the exploitation and murder of its most helpless members… the very young and the very old….
                Even the commandment "Thou shalt not murder" was brought over into the NT and summerized within "Love thy neighbor"..
                And the baby is NOT our neighbor somehow?? How is it loving to the baby to allow them to be legally murdered, most oftentimes for CONVENIENCE?
                I beleive that it is this that Christ wants us to do, no matter what, and maybe understanding each person reasons for doing what they do, will allow us to fix what it is that causes the problem in the first place.. burying people under a pile of Laws, and moral condecention may feel good.. but isn't a Fruit of the Spirit.
                Burn the statute books, and pass out copies of “I’m Okay, You’re Okay.”

                I have 2 children.. they where born in Love, and with that in mind. I take it your children where too.. Does God tell you that if you don't like one of them it would be okay to kill them? Your argument is made from a stance of passion, and I understand that.. but taking my words to places they never went does not make a point for you.
                The fact that your words never went to where I took them does not mean that they don’t logically lead there. You are advocating at worst, suggesting a neutral stance at best, towards the murder of children. I am just wondering why stop at children in the womb. Or is it okay to discriminate on the basis of age and location?

                Where your children born from a rape? Have you ever had to carry a child born from rape? Would you be able to love a child born from a man who committed evil, killed a friend of yours, sodomized you, and then purposely gets you pregnant?
                And how many pregnancies do you think really result from such a scenario?? Even abortion providers admit that at least 93% of abortions are done for convenience reasons (and I chose the most liberal number – others say 99%). And are you saying it is then okay to murder such a child because of the sins of his father? Whether or not I could love such a child has nothing to do with the morality of murdering him. There are other options, such as adoption. And funny you seem to be assuming that rape, murdering my friend, and such are wrong. Who are you to judge? Have you ever stood in that rapist’s shoes? Perhaps he just needed more love and not a pile of laws to condemn him… God will deal with him after all.
                Do you know how devasting that is to someone? Do you truly believe YOU have the right to judge that person and then look down upon them from your supposedly sinless pedastal?
                So, you somehow think it is better to allow such a person to become a murderer themselves?? And this is your idea of compassion? Do you know how devastating it is to someone to realize that they murdered their own children?? I do. Do you think YOU have the right to say it is better to have murdered your own child?? And you have a lot of nerve saying that last sentence about me if you have indeed read my opening post here. I am far from sinless…..
                Or, are the commandments of your Christ not what you want to follow? "Love thy neighbor as you love thyself". Have you never ever been at a low point in life where a decision you have made has not been of God?
                That is irrelevant to this discussion. And aren’t you being so judgmental… you see in order to determine that everyone has made decisions that are not of God requires you to judge such decisions.
                Do you think that ALL the people who decide to abort a child do so "just because" they don't like the child? Please be real.. this is a passionate subject yes, but if you have never been in these peoples shoes, do you really believe you can cast final judgment upon them? Or is that Gods job?
                Irrelevant. Do you think that all people who murder adults do so just because they don’t like the person? And I remind you, I HAVE BEEN IN SIMILAR SHOES. And where in the world are you getting the idea of final judgment?? Nice way to poison the well.
                And, in case everyone is missing it, I am also saying that DeeDee deserved to get as much love and aid in her decisions as anyone could have given her.. giving up a child cannot be an easy thing to do. I sincerely hope she had some loving compassionate Christians around her that where able to give her love, and help her understand - without condemnation - her mistake.
                Nice euphemism. I did not “give up” my children. I murdered them. I am glad that enough Christians loved me enough to tell me the truth, not placate me with feel-good liberalism. I have owned up and confessed my sin, and Christ has redeemed me. Christ will do the same for any other woman who has done the same. But this does not require a watering-down of the heinousness of the act. I believe I have fully repented precisely because I have fully owned up to what I did. I did not experience the true freedom of being released from that bondage until I did. This false compassion is not doing any women any favors, and is actually quite insulting. I deserve to know the truth and have to face up to the truth now…. For there will be no hiding the truth on Judgment Day.

                Comment


                • #98
                  Alright, you prefer truth..

                  Your fried DD.. doesn't matter whgat you say ehre, or what you think you know about the bible.. your a murderer.. your screwed and going to hell with no repentence.. you are unsaved because of that sin which is unforgivable, you have no right to even try and explain the bible to anyone as it is a confusion to you, as you are a sinner who will never make it to heaven.

                  You want to go around persecuting yourself and feelng good about it, you go right ahead.. you want to push YOUR guilt onto others thats fine..

                  I never advocated killing babies, your rude spiteful argument and attempts to insinuate I think its fine, are just sad.

                  I didn't even bother reading past the first few paragraphs of your reply, as they aren't made with any caring in mind, or Christ..

                  I at least apologised if I offended..

                  Does it make you feel better to accuse other people of being as sad as you? Just because you are an unsaved murderer, it's okay for you to jump on everyone else..?? Just because YOU thought it was ok to take .. no MURDER your children, it's now okay to make decisions for other people?

                  Revelation 21:8
                  But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


                  1 John 3:15
                  Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.


                  Before I felt compassion.. now I just feel sorry for you.

                  Sorry, if you prefer that version of the Truth.

                  Love and Peace

                  JCAtheist
                  Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. --1 Corinthians 13:6

                  Couldn't happen by chance?... Rarity by itself shouldn't necessarily be evidence of anything. When one is dealt a bridge hand of thirteen cards, the probability of being dealt that particular hand is less than one in 600 billion. Still, it would be absurd for someone to be dealt a hand, examine it carefully, calculate that the probability of getting it is less than one in 600 billion, and then conclude that he must not have been dealt that very hand because it is so very improbable. ~ John Allen Paulos

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    In fact, all those loving people around you at the time, who you obvioulsy needed to berate you, where Christian whimps according to your logic.. they should have just killed you there and then:

                    Numbers 35:16[i]
                    And if he smite him with an instrument of iron, so that he die, he is a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death.

                    Numbers 35:31
                    Moreover ye shall take no satisfaction for the life of a murderer, which is guilty of death: but he shall be surely put to death.


                    Love an Peace

                    JCAtheist
                    Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. --1 Corinthians 13:6

                    Couldn't happen by chance?... Rarity by itself shouldn't necessarily be evidence of anything. When one is dealt a bridge hand of thirteen cards, the probability of being dealt that particular hand is less than one in 600 billion. Still, it would be absurd for someone to be dealt a hand, examine it carefully, calculate that the probability of getting it is less than one in 600 billion, and then conclude that he must not have been dealt that very hand because it is so very improbable. ~ John Allen Paulos

                    Comment


                    • Are you always this incoherent?

                      Comment


                      • JCAtheist: I know that you are not going to take this well, but I need to point out that you are not a Christian in the sense that DDW meant to address this thread to. I know this because I spent a good deal of time on your website and learned about your beliefs.

                        I am happy to talk with you about those beliefs on another thread, but I just wanted you to realize that other people are aware of what you already know about yourself, that you are being duplicitous because YOU KNOW that you don't share the beliefs of the rest of the Christians on this thread.
                        "Servetus has just sent me a long volume of his ravings. If I consent he will come here, but I will not give my word for if he comes here, if my authority is worth anything, I will never permit him to depart alive ("Si venerit, modo valeat mea autoritas, vivum exire nunquam patiar").[3]

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by JCAtheist
                          In fact, all those loving people around you at the time, who you obvioulsy needed to berate you, where Christian whimps according to your logic.. they should have just killed you there and then:

                          Numbers 35:16[i]
                          And if he smite him with an instrument of iron, so that he die, he is a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death.

                          Numbers 35:31
                          Moreover ye shall take no satisfaction for the life of a murderer, which is guilty of death: but he shall be surely put to death.


                          Love an Peace

                          JCAtheist
                          I'd just like to point out that the laws that JCAtheist points out are good laws. Indeed, were these laws in place and swiftly enforced back when Dee Dee was pregnant, she's probably be the mother of two well-adjusted children instead of two corpses.
                          "To deny Calvinism is to deny the gospel of Jesus Christ." - Charles Spurgeon

                          Comment


                          • Thank you Paul. That was a point I made before to Freak. In fact, if[those laws were in effect at the time, I would have thought twice about having premarital relations in the first place. I wish I had. I robbed my husband.

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                            • Agreed Paul. You are right!
                              "Servetus has just sent me a long volume of his ravings. If I consent he will come here, but I will not give my word for if he comes here, if my authority is worth anything, I will never permit him to depart alive ("Si venerit, modo valeat mea autoritas, vivum exire nunquam patiar").[3]

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                              • Re: Not for the weak-kneed or easily offended

                                Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren
                                Now to respond to some of JCA’s comments:

                                Actually it is the baby that bears the brunt of the decision made. The decision is not whether or not to have a baby. The decision is whether or not to have a living baby or a dead baby. Since when is the decision to kill one’s child strictly a personal matter?
                                Since when did it become the business of an unsaved murderess what other people do?
                                Me -Obviously the murder of a baby is a bad thing.

                                You - Murdering a baby because of the sin of one or both of his parents is dead wrong. There are people standing in line who would want to adopt such children. So it is better to murder a baby because a family allegedly won’t love it?? What if a family decides it cannot love its one year old… can they now kill him?
                                I'm sorry God, I didn't realise you wehre there in DeeDee's shoes, however, I am surprised that everything I say would be taken to extremes, but you are God after all, and free to do as you please.

                                I have no problem saying that murdering babies is wrong for everyone. It amazes me that you do.
                                That's right, I forgot I had banners in my post telling parents to go ahead and kill their kids.. I didn't realise you where this much of a sorry person.. I guess it just took the right debate/Thread to show your true colors.

                                This is pretty irrelevant to the issue of whether or not abortion is morally acceptable.
                                Anything is irrelevent apparently, but your own POV.
                                Are you claiming that murder is a spiritually moral issue rather than a physical moral issue? You are seriously confusing the issue. Why stop with babies? The issue is a physical behavior that can and must be regulated. The only truly “spiritual” issues that we cannot truly regulate is the internal beliefs of a person. I cannot legislate that someone must believe that murder is wrong, but we can certainly legislate that the act of murder is criminally wrong and punishable.
                                Bah.. you get worse as the post goes on. There are already LAWS in place from Man to handle the issue.. YOU just don't like them.. maybe you wheren't persecuted enough.. And no, I don't feel the LAW is doing all it should in this instance, and better limits and guidelines ought to be set. But it should be a controlled thing, not an underground occurence.. DOES THAT MAKE IT RIGHT IN MY EYES?.. NO YOU HATEFUL SPITEFUL PERSON WHO HAS THE AUDACITY TO CALL THEMSELVES A CHRISTIAN WHEN THEY ARE A MURDERER.
                                Do you have that same attitude toward those who kill adults? Should they not be imprisoned? Should we just let God deal with them? Isn’t the baby our “neighbor” as well who has the same unalienable rights granted by his Creator, the foremost being the right to life?
                                Sorry Oh great Judge, I forgot that you where commanded by Christ to forget about loving your neighbor if they are a murderer.. hence my change in stance with you, as apparently I have it all wrong.
                                And the point is?? That we should not care?? That we should not punish crimes?
                                Yes DeeDee..that's exactly what I said, gee your soo smart.
                                [quote]
                                Do you feel is equally wrong to judge murderers of adults? Does the fact that there is other evil in the world justify the murder of anyone?? For us to NOT JUDGE THE PEOPLE WHO MAKE SUCH DECISIONS is evil. This is said with the caveat that I have already recognized that many women have been deceived. They need to be educated not placated with nonsense. “Woe to those who call evil good and good evil….” Isaiah 5:20[quote]

                                At least get the Verse in context.. I don't remember anyone calling evil good, or good evil.. just more of your philibustering because of your own Guilt. Your interpretation that it is EVIL for us not to judge goes unsupported by Scripture, and goes against the Commandments given by Christ..

                                But it is understandable you got it wrong, you are a self confessed sinner, a murderer, and seem to want to keep it that way.. you cannot love yourself, and therefore cannot love others.. or rather, you love everyone as you love yourself.. and it shows quite plainly that you don't.. unless you love murderer's..
                                So we allow the murder of children?? This is sick. I am sorry but there is no other way to say it.
                                Yes, lets shall we! WHHHEEEEEE! Lets have a child murdering party.. hey you go first DeeDee, you have the experience apparently.

                                I'm sick of it too.. I'm sick of people filled with guilt for their own sins that they want to beat others over the head with them.. and be totally NON-Christian while doing so.

                                I don't advocate killing 'children', and no matter what you say or scream about or feel is right, there is nothing in the bible to address this issue, other than that one command Thou Shalt Not Murder..

                                Matthew 5
                                18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.


                                Mark 12
                                30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
                                31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
                                32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:


                                Romans 13
                                8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
                                9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
                                10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.


                                Sorry.. Just Christ talking for God.. he seems to think you have it wrong somewhere.. and that no matter what, you are to love your neighbor. I don't see room for your condescention.
                                Then let’s throw out all laws since none of them are one hundred percent effective. The FACT is that this was not a major problem WHATSOEVER during the period of time that abortion was illegal, and that THE VAST MAJORITY OF ILLEGAL abortions were performed by licensed physicians. Let’s drop all homicide laws, people seem to be killing people anyways. And of course, [sarcasm] regulated murder is much more moral than unregulated murder [/sarcasm].
                                Another DeeDee tirade? Why stop there? The command is Thou Shalt Not Commit Murder.. hmm.. strangely, it doesn't say what.. I do hope yo don't step on an ant, or kill a wasp, over even sit and kill a microbe.. by the logic of extremes, that you appear to be using, that makes you a murderer too.. or is that an okay murder? THAT is okay in your eyes, even though it goes against the actual command? [even better English Sarcasm]MY DeeDee, you have been sooo right! We should put away the bible and listen to you now, forgetting of course that you are a self confessed - and still punishing yourself - murderer... YOU are to be our example! All Hail DeeDee![/even better English Sarcasm]
                                Red herring, and a stinky one at that. Our love will tell them the truth…. that the murder of children is evil and reprehensible. Only the most evil of cultures tolerates the exploitation and murder of its most helpless members… the very young and the very old….
                                Of course, people can't make mistakes.. like you did.. everyone now has to be of the new moral standard YOU are tooting because YOU want to punish people. The love and compassion in your heart is just overwhelming.. (oops, forgot the sarcasm brackets)
                                And the baby is NOT our neighbor somehow?? How is it loving to the baby to allow them to be legally murdered, most oftentimes for CONVENIENCE?
                                It is not loving, no. I never said it was. Your whole assumption and assertion tat it is that which I am saying, is ludicrous, un-Christian, and uncalled for. I merely pointed out that there are people like YOU in this world, who make bad mistakes in their lives, and although we can make laws of man to punish them, which we have (although not the best), these people will face their ultimate Judgement from God.. taking pleasure in their suffering NOW, by YOU, goes against Gods commandments as given above. No matter WHAT you want to say or think.
                                Burn the statute books, and pass out copies of “I’m Okay, You’re Okay.”
                                WHEEEEeee! More DeeDee rhetoric. If you only stopped to think for a minute, you would see that over half your post is just you being rude and sarcastic.. you wheren't asking for opinions on this thread apparently, you just wanted to spout your own rhetoric and opinion of guilt, and shove it down other peoples throats; so it seems.

                                The fact that your words never went to where I took them does not mean that they don’t logically lead there. You are advocating at worst, suggesting a neutral stance at best, towards the murder of children. I am just wondering why stop at children in the womb. Or is it okay to discriminate on the basis of age and location?
                                No, my words don't logically lead there, you took them there because of your own issues.

                                Sorry, about the age and location thing.. I sure do hope our next President is so righteously driven like yourself, that we go around a few other countries killing people who do what you did.. I'm sure that will make you feel a lot better.. an eye for an eye, is that it DeeDee? Maybe you are right, maybe we should just kill women before they even have a chance to get pregnant.. or maybe steralise all men so that this type of sad and sorry mistake, made by people like yourself, doesn't happen again. (damn those sarcasm brackets, forgot them again)

                                And how many pregnancies do you think really result from such a scenario?? Even abortion providers admit that at least 93% of abortions are done for convenience reasons (and I chose the most liberal number – others say 99%). And are you saying it is then okay to murder such a child because of the sins of his father? Whether or not I could love such a child has nothing to do with the morality of murdering him. There are other options, such as adoption. And funny you seem to be assuming that rape, murdering my friend, and such are wrong. Who are you to judge? Have you ever stood in that rapist’s shoes? Perhaps he just needed more love and not a pile of laws to condemn him… God will deal with him after all.
                                I have already said that each case would need to be looked at individually to decide if it was a convenience issue, or don't you bother to read properly?

                                And don't give me this self righteous "who are you to judge" crap.. take that plank out your own eye first.

                                I mentioned adoption, and even said I was willing to supply places where there is an over abundance of babies up for adoption, who are ending up in childrens homes and being mistreated and abused etc.. I agree with adoption.. your point?
                                So, you somehow think it is better to allow such a person to become a murderer themselves?? And this is your idea of compassion? Do you know how devastating it is to someone to realize that they murdered their own children?? I do. Do you think YOU have the right to say it is better to have murdered your own child?? And you have a lot of nerve saying that last sentence about me if you have indeed read my opening post here. I am far from sinless…..
                                You really didn't understand my post, and you really do seem to love going to extremes to make your point. I apologised if my post offended, as that wasn't it's intention. But you are above that apparently, and want to make me out to be some sort of criminal and murderer lover in the sense that there is no punishment.. how sad can you get.
                                That is irrelevant to this discussion. And aren’t you being so judgmental… you see in order to determine that everyone has made decisions that are not of God requires you to judge such decisions.
                                More rhetoric. I didn't make a judgment, I just gave you Gods Judgement on what and how you should behave.. as in the verses quoted above. If you feel that you are following those commandments, thats between you and God.. personally, from the way you have addressed me, and the things you seem so happy to hold on to, I don't feel you are.. but I don;t search hearts and minds, God does. You want to take that as a judgement, that's up to you.. you seemed to want a judgement though, you seem to want to be down on yourself, and everyone else..
                                Irrelevant. Do you think that all people who murder adults do so just because they don’t like the person? And I remind you, I HAVE BEEN IN SIMILAR SHOES. And where in the world are you getting the idea of final judgment?? Nice way to poison the well.
                                Don't you want to kill these people DeeDee? Isn't that your final goal? After all, what other punishment can there be for such a crinme? Killing is good .. killing other people for killing must be better.. sorry, that's just the logical conclusion to what you are saying.

                                And 'poison the well'.. my you are a riot.. If there is repentence for such a crime as murder, and you kill the murderer, you take away THEIR chance to repent.. if there is NO repentence for murderers, then how on earth do you get to star in a thread that requires "Christians"?

                                Nice euphemism. I did not “give up” my children. I murdered them. I am glad that enough Christians loved me enough to tell me the truth, not placate me with feel-good liberalism. I have owned up and confessed my sin, and Christ has redeemed me. Christ will do the same for any other woman who has done the same. But this does not require a watering-down of the heinousness of the act. I believe I have fully repented precisely because I have fully owned up to what I did. I did not experience the true freedom of being released from that bondage until I did. This false compassion is not doing any women any favors, and is actually quite insulting. I deserve to know the truth and have to face up to the truth now…. For there will be no hiding the truth on Judgment Day.
                                Sorry if you felt I was placating you.. I do hope my last few posts show you that I had no idea you preferred to have all this said. You think there is redemption for your crime, and yet you want to deny others that chance.. you want to say it's okay to hate others who make the same mistake YOU did, but somehow you deserved redemption.. You claim to be redeemed and once again a Christian, but cannot follow Christs commandments.. no one on EARTH had the rtight to redeem you, least of all yourself.. and I didn't realise that judegment day had come.

                                COunt yourself lucky that there where laws to protect you so that you had the chance to be redeemed.. becasue as I said, according to your own logic, you should have been killed right away, and your chances of realising you had done such a terrible thing would have burned with you in Hell.

                                Now, with all that said..

                                In my heart and mind, where Gods commands are written:

                                Hebrews 10:16
                                This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;


                                (The commands I quoted above).. These tell me that your anger and desire for persecution of people because of the guilt of your sin, is NOT righteous. No matter what, you are to TRY and produce the fruits of the spirit..

                                Galatians 5
                                21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
                                22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
                                23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.


                                If you where indeed redeemed in Christ, you would at least attempt to produce those fruits.. your post to me is not one of those. Do you beleive that you now cannot sin?

                                I am sorry that you want to harbor such feelings for any person, such depth of apparent hatred.. you might want to call it passionate, what you are saying and doing, but I don't 'feel' that from you.. to much anger. And yes, THAT is MY opinon.

                                I stand by my first post.. the people who commit abortion are committing sin. We can make laws to prevent such things, which we have, and they will not make every judgement right. Each case needs to be decided individually, and those that are for convenience reasons, and other such inane reasons, should not be allowed to happen. Neither should they after a certain timeframe, unless the mother is in lifes jeopardy (which apparently becomes a dliemma for your logic.. do we KILL the mother to save the unborn child? Or allow the mother to decide?)

                                I'm also sorry that it had to go this far, I will certainly not hold back on the 'feel God.. er good liberalism' with you anymore.. oh wait, I might have to, seeing as Love is supposed to feel good, and that is what Christ wants me to do.

                                I sincerely hope you don't mind if I continue to love you and feel that you have redeeming qualities.. and I certainly hope you don't mind me saying that I'm happy that you weren't killed becasue of your mindless sin, and that you had a chance that your children never had (not that they needed it), to be redeemed.

                                I also hope you don't take offense to the fact that although I obviously abhor the crime of murder, I will do my best to live as Christ commanded me, and will pray and try and comfort those lost souls that will make such terrible mistakes, and hope that they too will be given the chance to come to God.

                                I apologise if this post upsets you, but you seemed to want a 'gut' and 'carnal' response..

                                I too am a sinner, not perfect, trying my best to do what is right in the eyes of our Lord.. I can only pray that Christ forgives both of us.

                                In Love and Peace

                                JCAtheist
                                Last edited by JCAtheist; December 2nd, 2002, 08:04 AM.
                                Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. --1 Corinthians 13:6

                                Couldn't happen by chance?... Rarity by itself shouldn't necessarily be evidence of anything. When one is dealt a bridge hand of thirteen cards, the probability of being dealt that particular hand is less than one in 600 billion. Still, it would be absurd for someone to be dealt a hand, examine it carefully, calculate that the probability of getting it is less than one in 600 billion, and then conclude that he must not have been dealt that very hand because it is so very improbable. ~ John Allen Paulos

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