LOST - discussion about the TV series LOST. ** SPOILER ALERT **

GuySmiley

Well-known member
I'm inclined to think it was Jacob's prison cell. I think Jacob and Black Shirt Man are similar beings, and wouldn't be surprised to learn that Jacob's Smoke Manifestation was a white pillar instead of black. Remember that Black Shirt Man cannot kill Jacob without a loophole. So it doesn't make sense to keep the Black Smoke Monster out. But if they are similar beings, sharing their aversion to the ash, then it could be that Black Shirt Man used the ash to keep Jacob in the cabin.

Recall when Ilana and Bram (the so-called "Good Guys") came to the cabin and saw the broken ash ring. I think they came to free Jacob, but discovered he had already been freed, at which point they immediately headed off to the ruins of the statue, knowing they'd find Jacob there.
I like this idea too. When Locke first saw the smoke monster and described it as beautiful, maybe that was Jacob, and not the MIB. It was a couple years since I saw that, but did we get to see the smoke monster in that scene? I think we only saw Locke's reaction to it right?
 

Nathon Detroit

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
The bloody blond boy could be Aaron Shephard from the future.

Back in Episode 6 of Season 3, one of the Others says about Jack Shephard: "He's not even on Jacob's list." But in "The Substitute," we see the name "Shephard" written on Jacob's wall. Perhaps it does not refer to Jack Shephard, but to another.

Recall that Claire is Jack's sister, and therefore, technically speaking, she is a "Shephard." Since Claire is unmarried, technically speaking, her son Aaron is a Shephard as well.

This would fit the theory that the bloody blond boy is Aaron.
Hmmm.... that's another brilliant observation. I had thought that Aaron would turn out to be #108 but now you have given an even more likely scenario.

Hilston.... nicely done!!

It would be cool if us TOL'ers developed the E=mc2 of LOST.
 

Nathon Detroit

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
I think we only saw Locke's reaction to it right?
That's correct. That was really early in season 1.

Also, in the most recent episode we see the smoke monster peer into Sawyers window in Dharmaville and not much later Flocke makes a similar appearance. Llana then tells us that Flocke/Smoke monster can no longer change his shape (was she wrong??). Or... is the smoke monster peering into Sawyers window the "other" smoke monster?
 

The Graphite

New member
Hmmm.... that's another brilliant observation. I had thought that Aaron would turn out to be #108 but now you have given an even more likely scenario.

Hilston.... nicely done!!

It would be cool if us TOL'ers developed the E=mc2 of LOST.

That would mean that Aaron would be #23, then? That would bust my theory, if that's the case.
 

Hilston

Active member
Hall of Fame
That would mean that Aaron would be #23, then? That would bust my theory, if that's the case.
It might seem a little cheesy, but it wouldn't surprise me if "23 Shephard" on Jacob's wall refers to Psalm 23 ("The Lord is my shepherd"), and thus indicates which of the Oceanic 6 (Jack or Aaron) becomes the Substitute. Recall how insistent Ben Linus and Eloise Hawking were about all six, Aaron included, return to the Island.
 

The Graphite

New member
Because a significant part of my theory rests on Jack's "king" symbolism being related to the fact that he is a shepherd who is a great physician and therefore a king. If Aaron is #23, then I have no explanation for him within my theory, at all.

Interestingly, though... the name Aaron is believed to be possibily of Egyptian origin.

It might seem a little cheesy, but it wouldn't surprise if 23 Shephard refers to Psalm 23 ("The Lord is my shepherd"), and thus indicates which of the Oceanic 6 becomes the Substitute. Recall how insistent Ben Linus and Eloise Hawking were about all six, Aaron included, return to the Island.
As I have pointed out, Jack is a shepherd who is a great physician, and the most famous psalm is Psalm 23, which begins with the word "The Lord is my ..."
 

Nathon Detroit

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Because a significant part of my theory rests on Jack's "king" symbolism being related to the fact that he is a shepherd who is a great physician and therefore a king. If Aaron is #23, then I have no explanation for him within my theory, at all.
Yet as Hilston said.... Aaron IS a Shephard!

He is Christian's grandson and Claire never married so Aaron is as much a Shephard as Jack is.
 

The Graphite

New member
I supposed part of the symbolism would be intact, even though Aaron obviously isn't a great physician who can make the lame walk.
 

Nathon Detroit

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LIFETIME MEMBER
Random observation....

Random observation....

Did anyone notice this??? Flocke takes Sawyer to Jacob's cave. And to get there they need to use a ladder. Jacob's ladder.

Sawyer almost falls because Jabob's ladder is broken.

:think:
 

Nathon Detroit

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Oh yeah... Jacob's ladder, I thought that was cute. LOL
The ladder was rather odd don't you think? Who makes a down heading ladder poke 5 feet higher than the very top of the entrance down?

That could symbolize smokies/devil's inability to escape his island prison.
 

The Graphite

New member
Oh yeah... Jacob's ladder, I thought that was cute. LOL

But, I don't get the broken reference. Is there something biblically that I'm forgetting about Jacob's ladder being broken?

Or is the broken symbolism strictly something within the show's story?
 

Nathon Detroit

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LIFETIME MEMBER
Oh yeah... Jacob's ladder, I thought that was cute. LOL

But, I don't get the broken reference. Is there something biblically that I'm forgetting about Jacob's ladder being broken?

Or is the broken symbolism strictly something within the show's story?
It appeared that at some point in the past the ladder went much higher (maybe to heaven?) but was broken off about 5 feet above the edge of the cliff.
 

The Graphite

New member
It appeared that at one point the ladder went much higher but was broken off about 5 feet above the edge of the cliff.
Ohhhhhhh. I didn't notice that.

So, the ladder used to go up ... but now it goes down to where one would enter into the earth.

I lean toward the theory that this cave is actually MIB's cave, not Jacob's, although I think it could go either way. Frankly, they make it look like everything is Jacob's. The cabin is supposedly Jacob's. The statue room is Jacob's. The cave is supposedly Jacob's.

No wonder MIB hates Jacob. "Aw man... Jacob gets everything! It's not fair! Mommmmmmm!"

I have a feeling one or some of these are not Jacob's.
 

The Graphite

New member
:rotfl:

Well do know the smoke monster was found underground near the temple right? Didn't Ben and Locke find him in the water there??
Yes, at some point the place was abandoned and Smokey got in there... or Smokey was able to invade the place and drive out or kill the people there. Either way, the protective barrier was let down.

But it seems apparent that the temple is certainly not the rightful home of Smokey.
 

Nathon Detroit

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Yes, at some point the place was abandoned and Smokey got in there... or Smokey was able to invade the place and drive out or kill the people there. Either way, the protective barrier was let down.

But it seems apparent that the temple is certainly not the rightful home of Smokey.
Unless of course the "two smokie" theory is valid. :think:
 

The Graphite

New member
The Divine Right of Kings

The Divine Right of Kings

Knight asked me to post a more comprehensive explanation of my "kings" theory, so here goes...

I'm not dogmatic about this, but I see a clear pattern in the names of the "candidates." The names of the candidates appear to correspond to kings, or at least national leaders, or to something directly relating to kings. Note the following:

The Man in Black discussed how several of the central Oceanic survivors are actually candidates for leadership on the island, and John Locke's name has been crossed off after his death. It associates each person with one of the numbers. But, I also read about the tapestry woven by Jacob in "the shadow of the statue," and how it shows the sun God above, and two kings - one on either side - watching as a bunch of rays come forth from the sun god, reaching down to nine people. Are the two "kings" Jacob and his nemesis? And these figures at the ends of those rays... are they the candidates and three other notable cast members? (Such as Sun, Claire and Kate plus the six candidates?)

I was considering all this when something suddenly struck me about the names. The surnames. Mind you, on one or two of these, I may be reaching a little to fill the holes, but several of these are explicit in meaning...

4) Locke -- a fortified place, or a locksmith. Philosopher John Locke is arguably most famous for opposing the idea of the divine right of kings.

8) Reyes - Spanish, means "king"

15) Ford - One who crosses over, particularly over or through water, also name of a national leader - a president, although not a great one. In fact, that president is considered by many to be a loser, a failure and a screw-up... not unlike Sawyer.

16) Jarrah - "one who gives sweetness," also a legendary Muslim leader who was a companion of Mohammed. Not sure about this one. But just as noteworthy is his first name, Sayid, which was a title for major chieftans in early Islam, and also signified direct descendants of Mohammed.

23) Shephard - shepherd, a reference to Jesus. Don't believe me? Who is a shepherd, but also a "great physician" who can make the lame walk? Also, Jack has had an alcohol problem; alcohol has been called "the water of life" by numerous cultures for thousands of years. So, Jack is a Shephard who is a great physician and makes the lame walk, and who partakes of the "water of life" and has exercised rulership over the survivors. Jack's number is 23. The most famous psalm is Psalm 23, which begins "The Lord is my shepherd..." To top it all off, what's his father's name? Christian!

42) Kwon - "authority," an explicit reference to Korean kings, the name was created specifically for kings. But, what about Sun's maiden name? Paik is a variation of Paek or Park, which originated with the founding king of the Silla Dynasty in Korea, one of the greatest empires in Korean history.​

So, to recap:

  • Reyes means king
  • Kwon means king
  • Paik was a very prominent Korean king
  • Sayid is a chieftain and descendant of Mohammed
  • Jarrah was the name of a specific, early Islamic chief and companion of Mohammed
  • Shephard is the most famous king in all of history - Jesus, the shephard, great physician and king
  • Ford was the president (king) of America, albeit a loser, a screw-up and a failure by the standards of many
  • Locke was a philosopher primarily concerned with opposing the divine right of kings

I agree at least a couple of these are weak, including Ford and particularly Jarrah. The latter may in fact be because it is Middle-Eastern in origin, so I'm obviously going to be ignorant of most allusions involving such a name. However, it is striking to me that many names on this list either refer to kings or national leaders or actually, literally mean "king."

Richard clearly exercises authority on the island. Was he a previous "candidate?" His name... guess what? "Powerful ruler." The name is Germanic in origin. So is his last name, Alpert, which is combined from two Germanic words meaning "noble" + "famous." So.... powerful ruler, noble, famous! Can we get more obvious?

It occurred to me that I might be looking at this the way many people look at horoscopes - reading into it whatever they want to see. So, I looked through the name meanings of at least 50 or 60 character names from the show (there's a website that compiles the name of every major, minor and trivial character on the show, along with the meanings of their names), to see what I'd find. Virtually all of the names outside of these candidates have no meaning in the context of the show, at all. Their names mean trivial things like "wagonwheel maker" or "cyprus tree" or are named after a real-world river or the suburb of a city in England, etc. Clearly, the names of the candidates mean something significant, especially regarding kings and/or national leadership.

I am certainly not dogmatic on this theory, and even if I'm on the right track here, some of this information may be off. I welcome and encourage more input on this possible use of symbolism in the story!
 
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Hilston

Active member
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Richard clearly exercises authority on the island. Was he a previous "candidate?" His name... guess what? "Powerful ruler."
Richard's authority seems to be delegated to him, probably from Jacob. Richard's role appears to be a facilitator for Jacob, a sort of Renfield-to-Dracula scenario, a liaison between humans and Jacob (whatever he is). We know he has played the role of vetting* candidates for Jacob, and was probably given the "gift" of longevity for that purpose.

*When Richard visited Locke at various times during his life, it was to test and evaluate him. At their first face-to-face encounter, Richard set before Locke a compass, a vial of sand, a knife, a book of laws, a baseball glove, and an issue of Mystery Tales, titled "What was the secret of the mysterious hidden land!" He asked young Locke to choose which items already belonged to him. When Locke chose the vial and the compass, Richard smiled. As soon as Locke chose the knife, Richard frowned, picked up everything and left.

Yet, Locke still became a candidate.
 

The Graphite

New member
Hilston, I agree that "Ricardus" doesn't have the same kind of leadership, and to clarify, I'm not saying that any of these people will be literal kings.

I'm only pointing out that these people have names signifying nobility in leadership. It's symbolic, not anywhere near literal.

Something else occurred to me yesterday, though. If my theory is on track, what are the odds that the producers and writers of Lost would come right out on the show and say that Jack somehow represents Jesus Christ? I can't imagine they would do such a thing. This suggests to me that, if my theory is correct, it may be strictly intended as a subtle subtext that will never be openly acknowledged on the show.

And if that is true, that may mean that my theory is non-falsifiable! Which certainly isn't something that makes me happy, since I'd like to know whether it's true or not, just as much as anyone else! I'm not out to convince anyone it's true. I'm interested in finding out if it is. Hmmm.....
 
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