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  • #76
    Originally posted by WandererInFog View Post
    Here's an interview with JJ Abrams where he directly acknowledges that they had no idea where the show ultimately going when it was first being written and filmed:

    Interview w/ JJ Abrams
    That isn't what he said at all. He said when you are filming a pilot of a TV series you don't know what episode 64 (as an example) will be about. Which makes perfect sense.

    If you read at all about the creators of LOST Damon Lindolf and JJ Abrahams they admit that when they were hired they wrote a "bible' for the show that outlined all the major story lines of the show. They knew where they wanted to start and where they wanted to end, that's why season 6 is the end - it's been planned that way since the start. They knew all the major details of the story but "fiddled" with some of the characters and plot-lines of sub-plots.

    The overall plot-line is foreshadowed in the very first episode of the show and countless details show up in later episodes that were introduced in early episodes.

    I'm really not sure why you are trying to make a point about the show being made-up as they went along.
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    • #77
      Something that's bugging me: Why does Jack ask Dogen, "What's that?"? Doesn't Jack know what a baseball is?

      Hilston

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      • #78
        Originally posted by GuySmiley View Post
        Yeah, that fits Knight's theory better.

        Remember in an earlier season, the others talked about the survivors saying there were good ones and bad ones. Could they be referring to the two groups as people who's lives seemed to not change, like Charlie and Kate vs. people who's lives did change. Just brainstorming.
        Fits Knight's theory?

        Actually, it seems to me that it doesn't fit at all.

        That means that Locke - who is on the predestination side - encountered The GIB - who is the god-like being on the free will side - and not only came out of it happy but thought it was beautiful, and it seemed to even encourage his predestinationary convictions.

        So, that doesn't make sense to me. Unless I'm missing something...

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        • #79
          Also, I think now that we will find out that all of their lives have changed, but we haven't seen all the changes yet. There may be clues, however. Kate asked Claire if she would believe her if she said she was innocent. Perhaps we'll soon see that in the new Lost-X timeline, Kate is actually innocent of this murder charge? Everyone else seems to be changed in some way, except for Claire, I suppose.

          Knight, I am inclined to agree with you at this point that they have planned out what may be large portions of the plot lines. I have to say, though, that it isn't necessarily certain. You can introduce random, strange elements and later give them meaning if you want. Have someone say something mysterious, and later invent what it really meant, so that it looks like it was intended all along. Writers do it all the time. Stephen King is especially vocal in his writing philosophy regarding this; he is a major proponent of a strongly organic writing style where you don't know where things are going to go, but you can look back and give meaning to earlier elements as the story progresses and you feel led in certain directions by characters who - even to the writer - seem to almost take on a life of themselves.

          Again, I'm inclined to agree with you, at this point, but I don't think it's necessarily cut-and-dried, though. They may very well be exaggerating now how much they had planned all along, since they realize people want everything to mean something. It reminds me of how Beatlemaniacs in the 60s used to desperately look for meaning in Beatles songs. John Lennon wrote several songs (most notably Glass Onion) mocking their own fans for this, trying to come up with more and more outlandish, meaningless lyrics, to see just how much people would fall for.

          The Lost producers are genuinely tying things up and I think they'll give us a lot of answers. They're not mocking Lost fans like Lennon mocked his own fans. But, it just goes to show that sometimes people just want everything to mean something (need I mention Calvinists? LOL) and as a producer, he may now be trying to satisfy that longing people have, in his interviews. Just thinking out loud.

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          • #80
            This is tenuous but I figure I might share it. Here is a theory regarding names.

            I have been perusing the Lostopedia wiki, looking for various details and pattens I have missed over the years. This particular page interested me.

            http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Candidates

            It concerns the Man in Black discussing how the central Oceanic survivors are all actual candidates for leadership on the island, and John Locke's name has been crossed off after his death. It associates each person with one of the numbers. I'm not clear yet how each person is associated with that corresponding number (maybe someone here can clarify that for me). But I was also just reading about the tapestry woven by Jacob in "the shadow of the statue," and how it shows the sun God above, and a king on either side watching as a bunch of rays come forth from the sun god, going to various people. Are the two "kings" Jacob and his nemesis? And these figures at the ends of those rays... are they the candidates?

            I was looking over the page of the link above, and suddenly something struck me about the names. The surnames. Mind you, on some of these, I may be reaching a little to fill the holes, but some of these are explicit in meaning...
            4) Locke -- a fortified place, or a locksmith. Philosopher John Locke was greatly concerned with opposing the idea of the divine right of kings.

            8) Reyes - Spanish, means "king"

            15) Ford - One who crosses over, particularly over or through water (also name of a national leader - a president, although not a great one)

            16) Jarrah - "one who gives sweetness," also a legendary Muslim leader who was a companion of Mohammed. Not sure about this one. But, read on.

            23) Shephard - shepherd (a vague reference to Jesus, who is a shepherd, a "great physician" and also a king. Also, Jack has had an alcohol problem; alcohol has been called "the water of life" by numerous cultures for thousands of years. So, Jack is a Shephard who is a great physician and who partakes of the "water of life" and has exercised rulership over the survivors.)

            42) Jin or Sun Kwon - "authority," an explicit reference to Korean kings, the name was created specifically for kings

            I agree at least a couple of these are weak, particularly Jarrah. That may in fact be because it is Middle-Eastern in origin, so I'm obviously going to be ignorant of most allusions involving such a name. However, it is striking to me that many names on this list either refer to kings or national leaders or actually, literally mean "king."

            And these "kings" and references to kings are the candidates for who will rule or protect the island...?

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            • #81
              Originally posted by The Graphite View Post
              Again, I'm inclined to agree with you, at this point, but I don't think it's necessarily cut-and-dried, though. They may very well be exaggerating now how much they had planned all along, since they realize people want everything to mean something.
              Ironically, the EW interview where Abrams and Lindelhof mention the writers bible they developed before the show is one being conducted by Stephen King, where they talk about how his style of developing stories heavily influenced how they worked on Lost.

              http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,1562722,00.html
              Abrams: It was a network saying, ''We want a show about people who survive a plane crash, and we want the final product in 12 weeks.'' Damon and I, who had never met until ABC brought us together, began writing an outline. After five days, there was one. They greenlit it, and we started writing scenes just to cast the thing. We would meet actors. We would write characters based on the actors, and it went from there. During the period of preproduction, production, and postproduction, we worked on a bible of the series. Ideas have fallen by the wayside or haven't happened; some ideas actually have. But for the most part, it was a leap of faith. It was beginning something that had a lot of big ideas, and believing in an ending.

              King: That's the way I work. I just start writing a story. It doesn't make any f---ing sense to me.

              Abrams: I'm so happy to hear you say that! A leap of faith — that, to me, is the essence of the show. Just embrace the absolutely over-the-top absurd nature of the story. Because when that kind of story is told with respect for the characters, the story, and the audience, you'll buy into it. That's my favorite thing about your work. You could argue that it's pulp stuff, but told with conviction.

              Yes, there was writer's bible as they started writing the show, but it started falling by the wayside almost immediately, starting with the pilot. They had actually originally intended, for example, to kill of Jack Shephard at the end of the pilot episode:
              Abrams: Do you ever make big shifts in your writing, Stephen? Or do you map out enough so you kind of know what you're going to be doing? Because in our show, Kate wasn't originally going to be ''the convict,'' and Jack was supposed to die.

              Another example of the story changing on them based on how things were received by the fans:
              Lindelof: My father was into the Illuminati and the number 23, so he was a big reader of Robert Anton Wilson. So there was some intentionality behind it, but we had no idea, no grand design behind the Numbers. But suddenly, the No. 1 question stopped being ''What is the Monster?'' and went to being ''What do the Numbers mean?'' This isn't to say that the Numbers don't mean anything. We just had no idea it had this potential to get totally out of control.

              Originally posted by Knight
              I'm really not sure why you are trying to make a point about the show being made-up as they went along.
              Because I don't actually see it, in a general sense, as a criticism of the show. The fact they've been able to reach back and tie things together in ways they didn't initially envision actually represent some pretty adept show running. This is something that's pretty common to any serialized drama from TV shows to comics to novels, and the writers/producers of Lost have handled far more adeptly than most.

              I actually find it interesting that people who are watching the show all in one big run do see it as having a great deal of continuity, whereas having watched for years along with reading analysis of the show along with interviews from the writers/producers, I tend to see more seams.
              "When the lights go out all over the world, when history seems headed only into a dead end and total disaster, God brings forth light. He changes the direction of history and regenerates men and redirects events and institutions to fulfill His purposes."

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              • #82
                WandererInFog, nothing you have presented changes anything I have stated. Clearly, the show's authors have emphasized certain things they didn't realize at the onset would be interesting or they "pulled back" other sub-plots that weren't as interesting as initially envisioned. They have also altered the characters as the 6 years have passed by, nobody disagrees with any of that. Heck, that's only natural right? After all when you are building your own house you make changes to the plan as you see the final product being built (lets add another bathroom here... let's move the laundry room the west side of the kitchen... lets turn that 5th bedroom into a loft). These types of changes to the "plan" happen because as you are building you begin to see how you could make improvements to the overall product that you couldn't see when you first started.

                And as to your other point that the writers didn't know what they were going to write until they started writing... well... I think that is sort of a non-statement don't you think? Don't most people start creating from nothing? Don't you have to have a starting point somewhere? The network said... "write a show about such and such", and so they did. Of course they had to start from almost nothing. Does the word "duh" mean anything to you?

                All I can say is....

                IF.... The two dead bodies that Jack found in the caves early in season 1 turn out to be who I think they are.... THEN... the major storyline of the entire show was planned out from the beginning.

                (that doesn't mean all the details along the way were equally planned out)

                If, on the other hand it turns out that the show's writers made everything up as they went along.... they sure did a fantastic job, and they created a super-fun and entertaining string of randomness that me and my family have had a lot of fun with.
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                • #83
                  Originally posted by The Graphite View Post
                  And these "kings" and references to kings are the candidates for who will rule or protect the island...?
                  Very interesting! Good work. I wonder why Kate was not numbered?? Is it because she is a girl? Maybe "replacements" can't be women? If so, that would mean that we know that #42 is Jin and not Sun.

                  I was shocked at how much was revealed last night.

                  The numbers.

                  THEY are the NUMBERS!

                  That was unexpected.
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                  • #84
                    Knight, who do you think the two bodies in the cave were? Are you willing to make a prediction?

                    As for my theory about the names and kings, guys, this is extremely theoretical on my part, and I welcome anyone who can corroborate this further, or shoot it out of the water. Like I said, some of my theory is very weak, and I've only barely begun to look into those meanings. And even if I"m on the right track, some of what I wrote may still be mistaken or off track.

                    But, I do find it very telling that two of the six surnames actually mean "king." The odds of that being accidental, especially in this story context, are pretty low, I think.

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                    • #85
                      Wanna hear another crazy surname meaning?

                      [Desmond] Hume -- meadows surrounded by water... or island.

                      On a seemingly unimpressive side note, Paik is a variation of the more common Paek, and it just means cyprus tree.

                      Richard was brought to the island, just like these 6 candidates, and he has some kind of authority on the island. The name Richard means "powerful ruler."

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                      • #86
                        Sayid - Chief, leader; a term for a descendent of Mohammed!

                        Hugo - "bright in mind and spirit" .... tell me that doesn't describe his character throughout most of the 6 seasons. The nickname "Hurley" means ocean tide.

                        Tell me these names are coincidental.

                        Anyone ever notice that the two opposite leaders in the survivors - Jack and John - actually have the same first name? Jack is a variation of John. It means "God is merciful."

                        The name "Hanso" of the Hanso Corporation means... God is merciful.

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                        • #87
                          *** SUPER SPOILER ALERT ***
                          Originally posted by The Graphite View Post
                          Knight, who do you think the two bodies in the cave were? Are you willing to make a prediction?
                          I have two theories and both are interesting.

                          Who are the bodies in the cave?

                          What do we know about them? We know that one was a man and the other was a women. We know that they had a small satchel containing a white and a black rock. We know they had been dead for about 30-40 years - yet with the whole time travel issue who knows how long they have actually been there.

                          Therefore, I think the following two options are the most likely...

                          1. Rose and Bernard. We know that Rose and Bernard went their own way prior to the nuke being blown in the season 5 finale. We know that at that point in their life and all they had been through all they cared about was their love for each other. Since they were off living on their own it's possible that they simply died together in the caves possibly of old-age or whatever else. The black and white rocks maybe have signified their love for each other: Rose being a black person and Bernard being a white person. Jack finding them in the caves dead yet prior to their death would prove that the time travel aspect of the show was very well thought out from the very beginning of the show.

                          My other theory is far more wacky yet fits within the scheme of a new overall theory of the show I am working on in my brain.

                          2. Adam and Eve. Yup, the real Adam and Eve! Jack jokes with Kate that the two dead bodies are their "own Adam and Eve". Maybe Jack didn't realize how accurate that statement really was. The black and white rock was given to Eve by the Smoke-monster i.e., devil/satan/evil force to tempt her. I can't say much more on this theory yet because I'm still fleshing it out but I think it's pretty awesome. Garden of Eden, fountain of youth (in the temple, but now the healing water has darkened), ring any bells?
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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Knight View Post
                            *** SUPER SPOILER ALERT ***I have two theories and both are interesting.

                            Who are the bodies in the cave?

                            What do we know about them? We know that one was a man and the other was a women. We know that they had a small satchel containing a white and a black rock. We know they had been dead for about 30-40 years - yet with the whole time travel issue who knows how long they have actually been there.

                            Therefore, I think the following two options are the most likely...

                            1. Rose and Bernard. We know that Rose and Bernard went their own way prior to the nuke being blown in the season 5 finale. We know that at that point in their life and all they had been through all they cared about was their love for each other. Since they were off living on their own it's possible that they simply died together in the caves possibly of old-age or whatever else. The black and white rocks maybe have signified their love for each other: Rose being a black person and Bernard being a white person. Jack finding them in the caves dead yet prior to their death would prove that the time travel aspect of the show was very well thought out from the very beginning of the show.

                            My other theory is far more wacky yet fits within the scheme of a new overall theory of the show I am working on in my brain.

                            2. Adam and Eve. Yup, the real Adam and Eve! Jack jokes with Kate that the two dead bodies are their "own Adam and Eve". Maybe Jack didn't realize how accurate that statement really was. The black and white rock was given to Eve by the Smoke-monster i.e., devil/satan/evil force to tempt her. I can't say much more on this theory yet because I'm still fleshing it out but I think it's pretty awesome. Garden of Eden, fountain of youth (in the temple, but now the healing water has darkened), ring any bells?
                            *** SUPER SPOILER ALERT ***
                            For a second, I thought the second theory was (sorry) a little dumb. However, the black and white stones representing the knowledge of good and evil... and of course the backgammon game of Locke and Walt (also black and white), and Locke's explanation of the game right in the beginning. Hmmmm! I'm keeping an eye out for this one.

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                            • #89
                              Random thoughts: in last night's episode, Ilana said the MIB was "recruiting." Obviously he is going after Sawyer, but how? Is the MIB really trying to get off the island? Why does the island need "candidates" and/or why/how does it need to be protected? Still a struggle to find out who is on which side.

                              This morning I was trying to remember who the Smoke Monster/MIB has pursued or killed in past seasons to see if that would give any clues. I know it and Locke had several incidents, which is beginning to make more sense from the parallels shown in both characters last night.

                              And what's up with the blonde kid in the woods? A young Jacob?

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                              • #90
                                Originally posted by The Graphite View Post
                                *** SUPER SPOILER ALERT ***
                                For a second, I thought the second theory was (sorry) a little dumb. However, the black and white stones representing the knowledge of good and evil... and of course the backgammon game of Locke and Walt (also black and white), and Locke's explanation of the game right in the beginning. Hmmmm! I'm keeping an eye out for this one.
                                I just submitted a rather long theory to one of the major LOST websites. I will let you know if they publish my theory.

                                Yes... I am a nerd. But hey! It's fun!!
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