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  • #61
    Here's a strange one... Desmond on flight 815????

    What's up with that?

    Was it really him?

    Why is Hurley now convinced he is "lucky" instead of being convinced he was "cursed"???
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    • #62
      I hear the season finale will be Sunday May 23rd.

      23 eh???
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      • #63
        Originally posted by Knight View Post
        Here's a strange one... Desmond on flight 815????

        What's up with that?

        Was it really him?

        Why is Hurley now convinced he is "lucky" instead of being convinced he was "cursed"???
        Yeah, so the plane never crashed, but that doesn't explain how things before that changed. Jack's dad's body isn't on the plane. Hurley thinks he's lucky, they guys sitting by Locke didn't get his sister to come back with him, Locke apparently went on the walkabout (although I thought he was lying but now I'm not so sure.) Here's my take on all that.

        I think they've revealed the big picture about what the Island is all about. Jacob and the guy in black (TGIB) are like two gods or something with a long standing battle/relationship. The events on the Island have eveything to do with their disagreement. Jacob hopes for the best in people and TGIB wants them dead.

        Since the Oceanic 815 survivors were bound to end up on the Island, Jacob and TGIB have been messing around in their lives. As we saw Jacob appeared to several of them long before they were on the Island.

        Now in some alternate reality, those people didnt crash and didnt end up on the Island. Therefore in that reality, Jacob and TGIB didn't mess with their lives. So not only does the future change, but their pasts change too. Some ended up the same, like Sawyer and Kate, and some ended up differently, like Hurley and Locke.

        And it all plays in the the overall fate/freewill theme.
        "I believe in Christianity, as I believe the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else." C.S. Lewis

        "Don't believe that there's nothing that's true, don't believe in this modern machine." Switchfoot

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Knight View Post
          Here's a strange one... Desmond on flight 815????

          What's up with that?

          Was it really him?
          I think the disappearance of Desmond had to do with Charlie's life being saved by Jack. Charlie said that he should have let him die. If he did die, I think Desmond would've stuck around. Now to figure out the connection.
          "The most terrifying words in the English language are 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'" - Ronald Reagan



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          • #65
            Originally posted by Poly View Post
            I think the disappearance of Desmond had to do with Charlie's life being saved by Jack. Charlie said that he should have let him die. If he did die, I think Desmond would've stuck around. Now to figure out the connection.
            Whoa.... that made my head hurt.
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            • #66
              Originally posted by GuySmiley View Post
              Yeah, so the plane never crashed, but that doesn't explain how things before that changed. Jack's dad's body isn't on the plane. Hurley thinks he's lucky, they guys sitting by Locke didn't get his sister to come back with him, Locke apparently went on the walkabout (although I thought he was lying but now I'm not so sure.) Here's my take on all that.

              I think they've revealed the big picture about what the Island is all about. Jacob and the guy in black (TGIB) are like two gods or something with a long standing battle/relationship. The events on the Island have eveything to do with their disagreement. Jacob hopes for the best in people and TGIB wants them dead.

              Since the Oceanic 815 survivors were bound to end up on the Island, Jacob and TGIB have been messing around in their lives. As we saw Jacob appeared to several of them long before they were on the Island.

              Now in some alternate reality, those people didnt crash and didnt end up on the Island. Therefore in that reality, Jacob and TGIB didn't mess with their lives. So not only does the future change, but their pasts change too. Some ended up the same, like Sawyer and Kate, and some ended up differently, like Hurley and Locke.

              And it all plays in the the overall fate/freewill theme.
              My latest theory is very similar to what you are saying.

              I believe that Jacob is actually bad and not good as the show would lead us to believe.

              I believe that the MIB is good and not bad as the show would have us believe.

              And here is the kicker....

              I believe that Jacob represents destiny or as we might call it... the settled view. While the MIB represents freedom from destiny or as we might call it... the open view. The entire show is a epic battle between destiny and freewill. That's why Jacob needed to travel back in time to effect the lives of the "losties" to keep them on track and fulfill destiny. The MIB is freedom and those that are "infected" might actually mean they are the ones lucky enough to be breaking free from destiny.

              Crazy I know.
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              • #67
                Originally posted by Knight View Post
                My latest theory is very similar to what you are saying.

                I believe that Jacob is actually bad and not good as the show would lead us to believe.

                I believe that the MIB is good and not bad as the show would have us believe.

                And here is the kicker....

                I believe that Jacob represents destiny or as we might call it... the settled view. While the MIB represents freedom from destiny or as we might call it... the open view. The entire show is a epic battle between destiny and freewill. That's why Jacob needed to travel back in time to effect the lives of the "losties" to keep them on track and fulfill destiny. The MIB is freedom and those that are "infected" might actually mean they are the ones lucky enough to be breaking free from destiny.

                Crazy I know.
                I tend to agree...I have a hunch the MIB might not be as evil as they're making him out to be.

                Tonight's episode should be interesting with Claire back, but I'm sure we'll all just end up with more unanswered questions.

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                • #68
                  I love how some of the very first scenes in the pilot episode describe the plot of the entire series.

                  For instance....

                  There are two sides...
                  Last edited by Knight; May 17th, 2010, 02:59 PM.
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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Knight View Post
                    I love how some of the very first scenes in the pilot episode describe the plot of the entire series.

                    For instance....

                    There are two sides...
                    Nice! I don't remember that at all. I have a feeling once the series ends I'm going to have to go back and watch everything again to catch what I missed the first time.
                    Last edited by Knight; May 17th, 2010, 02:59 PM.

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by yokefellow View Post
                      Nice! I don't remember that at all. I have a feeling once the series ends I'm going to have to go back and watch everything again to catch what I missed the first time.
                      That scene is from the very first episode. Wild eh?

                      Before the 1st season is even 1/3 over there are references to "the others", "blackrock", the "infected", and of course good vs. evil.

                      Some folks accuse LOST creators as "making it up as they go", I think nothing could be further from the truth.
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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Knight View Post
                        I have been rewatching the show from the very beginning and it's amazing how much I missed the first time through.
                        I just finished watching the whole series again. Wow! It's amazing how much just flew right by you the first time due to not knowing all that you did by the end of the 5th season. And watching them online at ABC is really cool because a lot of episodes are the enhanced version where there are captions at the bottom explaining some important things or reminding you of things you might have missed.

                        I think the scene where Jack first comes on to the beach and sees the crash in the first episode is wierd. It shows him and then pans around to the other side of him, yet there he is again. It's as if he would have to have gone behind the camera to get to the other side. I'm probably being as clear as much or reading too much into it but I'd like to see what others think about it.

                        And why was he so far away from the others when he woke up from the crash?

                        Also, I'm convinced that the scene where Kate is sewing Jack up (first episode), Jack was already aware that this was going to take place. Too many responses to Kate as if he knew her or knew what kind of reactions she would give.
                        "The most terrifying words in the English language are 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'" - Ronald Reagan



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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by GuySmiley View Post
                          Yeah, so the plane never crashed, but that doesn't explain how things before that changed. Jack's dad's body isn't on the plane. Hurley thinks he's lucky, they guys sitting by Locke didn't get his sister to come back with him, Locke apparently went on the walkabout (although I thought he was lying but now I'm not so sure.) Here's my take on all that.

                          I think they've revealed the big picture about what the Island is all about. Jacob and the guy in black (TGIB) are like two gods or something with a long standing battle/relationship. The events on the Island have eveything to do with their disagreement. Jacob hopes for the best in people and TGIB wants them dead.

                          Since the Oceanic 815 survivors were bound to end up on the Island, Jacob and TGIB have been messing around in their lives. As we saw Jacob appeared to several of them long before they were on the Island.

                          Now in some alternate reality, those people didnt crash and didnt end up on the Island. Therefore in that reality, Jacob and TGIB didn't mess with their lives. So not only does the future change, but their pasts change too. Some ended up the same, like Sawyer and Kate, and some ended up differently, like Hurley and Locke.

                          And it all plays in the the overall fate/freewill theme.
                          My wife and I finally saw the 2-hr season premiere and last week's episode last night.

                          I definitely like your theory. I was considering the possibility of Jacob being the bad guy and "The GIB" being the good guy. I hadn't considered the rest, but it makes sense in light of a lot of things.

                          But, I can't help but remember in the first season, when Locke ran into the smoke monster (The GIB) and unlike everyone else who has directly experienced it, he came out of it fine and said it was incredibly beautiful, etc. Idealogically, Locke has always been on the side of predestination in this story. However, if your theory is correct, The GIB is on the side of free will and opposes predestination. Which leaves that early scene very confusing, to say the last.

                          But we have the rest of the season ahead of us. I look forward to seeing it!

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by The Graphite View Post
                            My wife and I finally saw the 2-hr season premiere and last week's episode last night.

                            I definitely like your theory. I was considering the possibility of Jacob being the bad guy and "The GIB" being the good guy. I hadn't considered the rest, but it makes sense in light of a lot of things.

                            But, I can't help but remember in the first season, when Locke ran into the smoke monster (The GIB) and unlike everyone else who has directly experienced it, he came out of it fine and said it was incredibly beautiful, etc. Idealogically, Locke has always been on the side of predestination in this story. However, if your theory is correct, The GIB is on the side of free will and opposes predestination. Which leaves that early scene very confusing, to say the last.

                            But we have the rest of the season ahead of us. I look forward to seeing it!
                            Yeah, that fits Knight's theory better.

                            Remember in an earlier season, the others talked about the survivors saying there were good ones and bad ones. Could they be referring to the two groups as people who's lives seemed to not change, like Charlie and Kate vs. people who's lives did change. Just brainstorming.
                            "I believe in Christianity, as I believe the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else." C.S. Lewis

                            "Don't believe that there's nothing that's true, don't believe in this modern machine." Switchfoot

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Knight View Post
                              Some folks accuse LOST creators as "making it up as they go", I think nothing could be further from the truth.
                              Here's an interview with JJ Abrams where he directly acknowledges that they had no idea where the show ultimately going when it was first being written and filmed:

                              Interview w/ JJ Abrams
                              "When the lights go out all over the world, when history seems headed only into a dead end and total disaster, God brings forth light. He changes the direction of history and regenerates men and redirects events and institutions to fulfill His purposes."

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                              • #75
                                Some thoughts on the first 3 episodes of Season 6

                                Preface. In all that follows, my overarching theory concerning the conclusion of the Lost series boils down to Jacob's words to Jack, when he rescued Jack's candy bar from a vending machine: "I guess it needed a little push." In the final episode of Season 5, we are shown Jacob, appearing at various significant events in the lives of certain characters. In each case, it appears that Jacob exerts some influence on the events. In some cases, he speaks a few words, in other cases, he appears to affect matters of life and death. For this reason, I refer to Jacob as a sort of malevolent "Pusher," manipulating people and events for his own heretofore undisclosed purposes. Also, keep in mind that Loophole Luigi (the moniker I've given to BSM, i.e., Black Shirt Man/Black Smoke Monster) has accused Jacob of "bringing" people to the Island.

                                The nature of Black Smoke Monster/Black Shirt Man (BSM). For now, we don't know if Loophole Luigi's default state is the Black Smoke Monster or the Black Shirt Man. The fact that he appears to be bound at least by space (if not time) speaks to some corporeality, in whatever form. He is apparently able to "clone," for lack of a better term, people who have died. He has definitely done this with Locke, and quite possibly with Jack's father, Christian Shephard, whose corpse landed on the island with the crash of Oceanic 815. And whether by this process or some other means, Luigi seems able to know the full history, personality, mannerisms, etc. of the person whose body and persona he adopts.

                                Furthermore, the Others in the Temple have described some process, roughly translated an "infection," that can take over a person, like a "darkness" when they are "claimed," apparently by Loophole Luigi. Dogen, the leader of the Others in the Temple, has indicated that this process is occurring with Sayid, and that it has also happened with Jack's sister, Claire. Also, recall Danielle Rousseau's account of her team members who had all become "infected" and had undergone drastic personality changes, all of whom she killed to protect herself. This appears to be a different process than we've seen in the case of Luigi-as-Locke, since neither Sayid nor Claire have been "cloned."

                                Now that we know Luigi and the Black Smoke Monster are one and the same, and that he is able to shape-shift, we can possibly begin to account for the appearances of people thought to be dead or no longer on the island, such as Christian Shephard and Walt. However, Walt, who appeared to John Locke just after Ben Linus shot him, may be an exception, since he did not die on the island, but had left the Island with his father, Michael, a long time prior. On the other hand, when we consider what Walt said to Locke, who was lying helpless in the corpse pit, unable to move his legs, it does suggest that something more than just Walt behind his appearance and his words, to wit, "Get up, John. You've got work to do."

                                Parallel realities. With the detonation of Jughead by Juliet in 1977, a massive reset appears to have happened, creating a parallel reality that must go all the way back to that year. Note that the title of the premiere episode(s) is "LA X," with the conspicuous space interrupting the standard airport designation for the Los Angeles airport (LAX). Anyone who is familiar with the "X" designation of alternate realities in the comics genre will recognize this as an allusion to "Earth X," "Universe X," etc. Thus "LA X" suggests an alternate LA, and by extension, an alternate Lost, or Lost X, which I will henceforth use to describe this alternate universe/reality.

                                Regarding death and parallel realities, we know that Miles is able communicate with the deceased, and that Hurley sees and communicates with them as well. However, this may not account for all "visitations," as in the case of Walt, who has not died, yet still appeared to John Locke on the Island. When Juliet said from the grave regarding the detonation of Jughead, "It worked," how did she come to that knowledge? She must've have seen somehow the alternate reality from her post-death vantage point. So, rather than viewing Miles and Hurley's contact with the dead as communion with ghosts, one view might be that these people have crossed over into alternate realities, with Hurley and Miles having the abilities to see, hear, engage and/or summon them from their alternate reality. Or, it could be that people really do die, and their counterparts from alternate realities are able to "crossover" from there to here, and somehow communicate with Hurley and Miles once their doppleganger dies. In the case of Walt, it might be his alternate counterpart intervening in events, or it could Loophole Luigi playing his shenanigans.

                                There are some curiosities that emerge in comparing the original Oceanic flight with this new Lost X narrative.
                                Jack. A coffin containing the body of Jack's father, Christian Shephard, was on the original flight, but not this one. When Jack complained about the weak drink he was given, the stewardess gives him only one liquor bottle, whereas she gave him two in the original. Consider also the differences in Jack's personality. In the original flight, Jack was confident, reassuring Rose that everything was OK with the flight. In the Lost X account, Jack is nervous and agitated, whereas Rose is the calm and reassuring one.

                                Locke. Locke tells Boone about his Aussie Walk-About adventure, which is a lie. However, we know from past episodes that Locke seems prone to depression and mood-swings when things don't work out for him. In the Lost X version, Locke's demeanor is uncharacteristically upbeat and positive mood. Also curious is Locke's interest in getting his knives back. The original Locke, in his dejection, probably wouldn't have cared that his knives were lost.

                                Sun and Jin. In the Lost X narrative, Jin and Sun are not married, evidenced by the fact that she is referred to as "Miss Paik" by the staff at LAX, and neither Jin nor Sun appear to be wearing wedding bands. This then raises the question: Was Sun being truthful when she said "No ... English"? After all, her original motivation for learning English was her desire to abandon Jin in America. Her demeanor seemed to communicate that she was lying, but this might be a trick of the writers.

                                Desmond. There is some massive dramatic irony going on with Desmond, in the fact of Desmond being a passenger on the plane, instead of in the Swan Station, where he originally failed to press the button, causing the crash of the original plane. Desmond has always been "special" in the original Lost narrative. He is the only one who was able to change past and future events. With the exception of the Jughead detonation, everyone who tried, discovered that their efforts always factored into what would inexorably happen. For example, Kate saving Ben's life, Farraday being shot by his mother, etc. But Desmond was able to time travel, memories intact, and change events in the past, and actually affect events in the future. Perhaps Desmond's words, "See you in another life," which he has said to Jack more than once, have farther reaching significance, yet to be revealed.

                                Boone. Boone was with Shannon in the original story, but the latter is absent in Lost X.

                                Michael, Walt and others are not on the plane in Lost X. Or else, they're seated in a different section than the original narrative.
                                Hurley. And finally, whereas Hurley was the unluckiest guy on the planet in the original story, he is now the luckiest man, apparently enjoying and thriving in a high-profile role as CEO of the chicken franchise.

                                Loyalties. Ilana & Bram, the soi-disant "Good Guys," seem to be loyal to Jacob. The Others, led by Richard Alpert, seem to be loyal to Luigi (although perhaps led to believe it's Jacob they are serving). This is reinforced by the fact that Luigi-as-Locke says to the Others after his fight with the Good Guys, "I am very disappointed in all of you." The Other Others, who live in the Temple, appear to be loyal to the real Jacob, and openly fear Luigi. I've yet to sort out why the Temple Others are so different, in behavior and knowledge, from the Dharma Camp Others. We now know that the black powder/ash is used to hold Luigi at bay. Of course, we immediately are reminded that Jacob's cabin has been seen with the same ring of powder, and that, when Ilana & Bram find the cabin in "The Incident," the ring of powder is broken. However, we know that the ring of powder was not to protect Jacob, since Luigi cannot hurt Jacob directly. So, either it must've been there to protect human visitors to the cabin, or perhaps Jacob and Luigi are similar entities, with similar limitations and the same aversion to the black powder. Perhaps Jacob was a prisoner in the cabin, so when Ilana and Bram go to the cabin to see Jacob, and then notice the broken ash ring around the cabin, they know immediately where to find him: at the statue's foot.

                                Cindy (the flight attendant) is an interesting character. How is it that she is so loyal to the Others that she doesn't flinch when the order is given to kill Jack, Hugo, et al. She must understand what is at stake.

                                Jacob the "pusher." Consider the various times that Jacob injected himself into the experiences of various Lost characters: Kate, at her early shoplifting heist; Sawyer, at his parents' funeral; Sayid, at the scene of Nadia's death; Ilana, in the hospital; Locke, after his father shoved him out of the window; Sun & Jin, at their wedding; Jack, during an argument with his father; Juliet, at the announcement of her parents' divorce; and Hurley, after being released from incarceration. Now consider a new narrative in which Jacob does not inject himself into each of the aforementioned lives, nor needs to, because all the events are changed (in 1977, at the detonation of Jughead). Let's now ask: Why is Kate a prisoner on the plane? Is the reason the same as the original story? Why is Sawyer so smiley and helpful on the plane and at the airport? Clearly, he's still the mischievous trouble-maker, evidenced by his assistance of Kate in her escape, but there seems to be something a little different about him. In the Lost X narrative, Sayid is shown looking at Nadia's picture on more than one occasion. Perhaps their history is different this time round? When Jack and Locke converse at the airport, Locke did not say how he broke his back. Perhaps, in the Lost X reality, Locke's history did not include the treachery that befell him and led to his handicap, after all, an 8-story drop certainly should have killed him. Take Jacob out of the picture, and Locke would likely have died. If Jin and Sun had never got married, then Jacob would never have shown up to confer his Korean blessing upon them, and they are now traveling together merely as business associates (Sun, as daughter to Paik, and Jin, as Paik's thug). Again, recall Jacob's words to Jack: "I guess it needed a little push," referring to the stuck candy bar. This seems to sum up Jacob's role in the original narrative. He's the "pusher" of events. Now that Luigi has killed him, Jacob can no longer play that role. Go back to 1977, and the Lost X reality that emerged as a result of the nuke, any influence Jacob might have exerted after that no longer happens.

                                Thoughts and questions regarding Episode 3:

                                Dogen (one of my people) blows ash on Sayid's torso just before the torture sequence. This alludes to the ash used to hold Loophole Luigi at bay. The "infection" that threatens to "claim" Sayid must be Luigi, or something Luigi-like, whom/which Dogen must be attempting to control or weaken with the ash. All this warrants a question: Can Luigi "claim" more than one dead human at a time? Previews show Sawyer speaking with Locke/Luigi. The final scene of the most recent episode shows Claire, having shot Jin's attackers. Is Claire still "claimed," as Dogen puts it? Or is she now just Claire, having been left behind by the Luigi Infection? Claire did appear confused and a bit lost at the sight of Jin, like she recognized him, but wasn't sure why.

                                It seems noteworthy that Lennon not only understands Japanese, but also "thinks" in Japanese, evidenced by the fact that he comprehends Japanese words for which there are no direct English translations. This further suggests that Lennon spent some time amid Japanese culture, and perhaps learnt the language at a young age. Consider the fact that two Japanese concepts readily describe Luigi's M.O., whereas English fails in this regard. What does this suggest about the origin of Luigi (and perhaps Jacob, as well)? Are they of eastern/oriental origin? Are there similar entities/beings in Japanese folklore/mythology?

                                Also, upon wondering what Dogen was looking for in his "diagnosis" of Sayid, it occurred to me that any normal human, being subjected to electrocution and burning to such a degree, would probably swoon, pass out, slip into unconsciousness and faint (yes, all four). So, since Sayid endured the pain of the "diagnosis," Dogen concludes that he is "infected." However, it could be rather that Sayid, having endured torture before, and having himself been a torturer, was able to endure the "procedure," and therefore Dogen is "misdiagnosing" him.

                                Aldo, the whiny d-bag who kept telling the other Other Other to "shut up," appeared in earlier episodes as one of the original Others (in the Hydra Station). So, if there are indeed two groups of Others, how is it that he is now one of the Other Others? By the way, I'm glad he's dead. Couldn't stand that guy.

                                Other curiosities:
                                Was the bear trap that caught Jin intended for polar bears? How did Claire attain such superb marksmanship? Why is Dogen so insistent that all the captured Losties remain at the Temple? This mirrors Ben's insistence that ALL of the Oceanic Six return to the Island. Here's something that comes to mind: when you go and muck about with the past, you have to control all the affected parties in order to minimize the Butterfly Effect. Could this all have something to do with Jacob's "pushing"? How about the fact that Kate was instrumental in Aaron's delivery on the Island, and is also in Lost X? How about also the fact that Ethan Rom (nee Goodspeed) plays a major role in Claire's labor in both narratives? What is Ben Linus' relationship to Dogen? It seems to me that those two would not get on very well together.

                                Finally, Dogen's response to Jack's query about being on the Island seems tremendously significant: "I was brought here, just like you" (or something to that effect). For now, I remain non-committal regarding whether Jacob is a good guy or a bad guy. The ramifications and implications either way, and what it says about those who were loyal to Jacob vs. Luigi, are huge.

                                That is all for now.

                                Hilston

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