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  • Originally posted by tetelestai View Post
    Funny thing is that Nick, Lighthouse, and Delmer passed over my question about how the Book of Life with names in it before the foundation of the world fits with open theism.

    I'm still waiting for an open theist to explain this.
    I didn't notice the question. What post was it in?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by tetelestai View Post
      (Psalms 69:28) Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

      Who is David talking about, and what is the "book of the living"?
      I would suggest it is the same book.
      Where is the evidence for a global flood?
      E≈mc2
      "the best maths don't need no stinkin' numbers"

      "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
      -Bob B.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post

        I am just going to keep pointing out your tendency to string together words without regard to their meaning. Your sentence and the argument you make based upon it is meaningless. As if character and essence can be divorced in God. Please show how that is possible.
        Character is volitional (morals), not substance (metaphysics). Review your Christian and secular philosophy 101. Faithfulness, loving, mercy, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, self-control, etc. are attributed to God and man (Gal. 5:22-23). They are not based on the eternal spirit nature of God nor the flesh and blood nature of man. They relate to the mind and will. We can be like God in these ways, though imperfectly, because of the I.D. As we chose, a nature is formed.

        God's ontology is another matter: eternal, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent. He does not choose these things, but is essentially these things.

        This has implications for sanctification, impeccability of Christ, etc.

        I think your essence assumptions are more in line with Aquinas and speculative philosophy than explicit Scripture and common sense.

        I think I have biblical and philosophical support for the gist of this. I think you have some tradition and philosophy and speculation for your support.

        You have more formal training in philosophy, so I thought you would be conversant with various theories and the distinction between being/essence/ontology/substance and character/morals, etc.

        Clete has probably tried to make similar points more succinctly, so I guess we see things differently. Surprise?
        Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

        They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
        I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

        Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

        "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

        The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Stripe View Post
          I'd be interested in an answer to these verses. As far as I know the phrase is used twice in Revelation:

          Revelation 13:8 makes it look like it was the Lamb that was slain "from the foundation of the world".

          All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

          Revelation 17:8 leaves out "of the Lamb slain". Is it fair to assume the two phrases mean the same thing and that the thing established at the foundation of the world was the book, not an individual's eternal destiny?

          The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
          The Lamb was not slain before He incarnated in the first century, so interpretation is needed.

          From the beginning, names were successively added over the centuries as people existed and died in faith. The text does not say the Book was fully written in eternity past before people exist or make choices (you are reading your ideas back into the text=eisegesis).
          Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

          They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
          I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

          Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

          "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

          The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by godrulz View Post
            The Lamb was not slain before He incarnated in the first century, so interpretation is needed.

            From the beginning, names were successively added over the centuries as people existed and died in faith. The text does not say the Book was fully written in eternity past before people exist or make choices (you are reading your ideas back into the text=eisegesis).
            I like Graphite's post. Mine was dumb.
            Where is the evidence for a global flood?
            E≈mc2
            "the best maths don't need no stinkin' numbers"

            "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
            -Bob B.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by godrulz View Post
              Character is volitional (morals), not substance (metaphysics).
              Never mind. :squint:

              Required reading: On Essence by Xavier Zubiri
              Embedded links in my posts or in my sig below are included for a reason. Tolle Lege.



              Do you confess?
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              Comment


              • Originally posted by tetelestai View Post
                Do you believe "since" was before Sept 23, 1980?

                If so, how was your real name in the Book of Life before you were born?

                I have been posting on TOL since 2005. This does not mean my posts pre-existed me. Since the beginning of the world, names have been added successively. They were not there at the beginning of creation because the future did not exist nor did I and my choices. If contingencies are real and we are not in a Matrix illusion, I could have not existed, could have died as a baby, could have rejected Christ instead of receiving Him. Modal logic correctly distinguishes possibilities, probabilities, contingencies, necessities, uncertainties, certainties, actualities, etc. You seem to blur these distinctions to retain a flawed view.
                Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

                They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
                I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

                Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

                "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

                The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Lighthouse View Post
                  The issue is in whether or not Christ was slain before the foundation of the world.
                  After the Fall, which was proximal to creation, the potential plan of redemption that God formulated was implemented and became certain. It became actual centuries later. Jesus did not die before He was incarnated. The phrase refers to the implementation of the plan, not a wooden literalism actuality in a space-time 4th dimension Star Trek warp.
                  Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

                  They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
                  I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

                  Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

                  "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

                  The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by tetelestai View Post
                    Redemption causes another open theism paradox.

                    The fact Christ literally took my sins upon himself that I didn't commit until 2,000 years later, and the fact that the sins I'll commit ten years from now were bore by him as well as the ones yesterday doesn't fit with open theism.

                    Within the perspective of time, justification didn't take place until Christ literally died on the cross. And, from our perspective, justification is not realized by us until we are able to believe it by faith. Outside the perspective of time Christ was able to bear all the sins of all time.

                    So, the open theist has to come up with the above “He became sin”.

                    It is the only thing that fits for them.
                    More question begging/circular reasoning, cmon.

                    What you state as fact is actually a theory. The literal payment/commercial transaction theory is not the best way to explain redemption. In fact, it logically leads to universalism.

                    The Moral Government Theory is a stronger position.

                    Anyway, the cross was objective provision, a substitute for the penalty of sin. It is not subjectively appropriated and applied until we need and receive it. The status of our non-existent future sins is not the issue. The issue is His historical once-for-all death.

                    You are assuming a wrong view of redemption and beating your chest as proof against OVT. Your wrong assumption leads to wrong conclusions. Slow down and don't jump to conclusions. There are responses for your misconceptions.
                    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

                    They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
                    I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

                    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

                    "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

                    The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by The Graphite View Post
                      Tetelestai, it doesn't say ANYONE's name was written in that book before the foundation of the world. For goodness' sake, pay attention.

                      It says that those people's names were NOT, EVER written in the Book of Life.

                      The author is making the point that these unsaved people weren't previously saved and then lost their salvation, they didn't fall away from God, but rather, their names have NEVER been written in the Book of Life.

                      As for Christ being slain before the foundation, it simply doesn't say that. In the Greek grammer, nouns and verbs are tied to each other via grammatical forms. The translators phrased it in such a way as to be extremely ambiguous. In the Greek it is explicitly clear:

                      It says their names weren't written in the Book of Life of the Lamb Slain... since the foundation of the world.

                      It absolutely does not say that the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world.

                      And it absolutely does not say that someone's name WAS written in the Book of Life since the foundation of the world. It says they were not. Please read the verse you're talking about, before coming up with such ridiculous claims that are, in fact, totally opposite of the scripture you're citing.


                      Yes, but I think the warning in Rev. shows that one's name can be blotted out in the case of apostasy. I think it is a small argument against OSAS. Our names are written in during our lives and remain as we remain in Him. If one dies rejecting the truth, their name can be blotted out. They will not be blotted out if they do not deny Him in the end (Heb. 6:4-6; I Jn. 5:11-13). If one never believed or had a fake conversion, they would not be added during their lives at all.

                      The assumption that the names must be there from eternity past is not defensible biblically or logically. There is a plausible alternate explanation that is not based on retaining preconceived ideas at all costs.
                      Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

                      They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
                      I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

                      Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

                      "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

                      The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by tetelestai View Post
                        Since you believe your name was written in the book of life when you were saved, how does one get his or her name blotted out of the book?

                        (psalms 69:28) Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

                        (Rev 3:5) He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

                        (Exodus 32:33) And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

                        Apostasy/falling away. Thx for using one of my arguments against OSAS/unconditional eternal security (I am OVT, remember).
                        Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

                        They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
                        I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

                        Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

                        "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

                        The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
                          Never mind. :squint:

                          Required reading: On Essence by Xavier Zubiri

                          How many pages? I have ADD.

                          Do we have a semantics issue? Is he Christian? Follows Edwards, Aquinas, Anselm, who?

                          Do you get commission for his book?

                          Recommended reading: Bible
                          Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

                          They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
                          I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

                          Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

                          "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

                          The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Knight View Post
                            God is bound by many things.

                            God is bound by His own reality isn't He? He couldn't decide to have never existed could He? He couldn't make a four-sided triangle or create a rock so big He couldn't lift it. Those are logical absurdities. God is real, rational, and logical and therefore bound by the character of His own existence.
                            These aren't 'binds' however, they are consistencies within His being of which all else emanates. This is important for our divergence in assessing correctly. All things (time included) emanate from Him and is a significant divergence or clarification between us. Logically, time is no constraint. What we still contemplate between us is the properties of it as it applies to God.

                            Here is a bit of philosophizing that I think is important though a bit vague in concept on my part. John Lennon wrote "Imagine" to see a world where things that guide us are removed. Imagine no durative counting or emphasis. "It's easy if you try..."

                            What we have rather than a 'progression' in emphasis, is rather 'accomplishments.' It doesn't matter 'how long' it takes to get there, but the distance becomes the exponential. This is a quality vs quantity type of consideration. I'm not sure 'quality' is exactly what I am aiming for here, but I think that time is no real consideration in eternity. It is rather that duration is heightened due to the curse. We must necessarily use what time we have wisely because sin comes with expirations. There were no expirations prior, therefore, the ticking of time is insignificant and meaningless in an eternal economy.

                            To say that this durative limitation upon us, caused by sin is in any way shape or form a constraint on God is to put God under the same curse. He is relational to our dilemma and even subjected through Christ, but it is a voluntary action of love, not a constraint that helps us measure His character, limitation, or ability.

                            Because God is relational to us, it is no lie nor miscommunication for Him to express truths to us with time given parameters but it is a mistake to apply the durative limitation sin has caused us, to Him.
                            My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
                            Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
                            Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
                            Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
                            No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
                            Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

                            ? Yep

                            Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

                            ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

                            Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by tetelestai View Post
                              If even one name was written in a book before, or since the foundation of the world, then this without a doubt shows that God is outside of time.
                              Did you honestly just say that?

                              Take out the section that says, "or since," and you have a point. And you would be correct. If anyone's name was written in that book before the foundation of the world, then God would have to be outside of time.

                              But if people's names are being written, and therefore have been written in, since [not have always been there since] this has God abiding with time.

                              And the verses give no indication that this is not the case. Especially after the points Graphite made.

                              Also, you will find no verses, whatsoever, that specifically state or even imply or infer that God is outside of time. None.

                              Originally posted by SaulToPaul View Post
                              How about here?

                              Leviticus 16
                              15: Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the vail, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat:
                              16: And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness.

                              What was this a type of?
                              What of it? It was a shadow of what was to come. And what was to come was Christ becoming sin for us, and sin dying on the cross. Not our individual sins, but sin as a whole.

                              Originally posted by tetelestai View Post
                              Redemption causes another open theism paradox.

                              The fact Christ literally took my sins upon himself that I didn't commit until 2,000 years later, and the fact that the sins I'll commit ten years from now were bore by him as well as the ones yesterday doesn't fit with open theism.
                              No duh, Dick Tracy. And with what I said there is no paradox. My specific sins were not borne by Christ, and neither were yours. Do try to pay attention.

                              Within the perspective of time, justification didn't take place until Christ literally died on the cross. And, from our perspective, justification is not realized by us until we are able to believe it by faith. Outside the perspective of time Christ was able to bear all the sins of all time.

                              So, the open theist has to come up with the above “He became sin”.

                              It is the only thing that fits for them.
                              For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
                              -2 Corinthians 5:21

                              *checks calendar. realizes it is not yet Jan. 1st*

                              Idiot.

                              Originally posted by tetelestai View Post
                              (Psalms 69:28) Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

                              Who is David talking about, and what is the "book of the living"?
                              Same book. Relevance?

                              Originally posted by tetelestai View Post
                              Since you believe your name was written in the book of life when you were saved, how does one get his or her name blotted out of the book?

                              (psalms 69:28) Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

                              (Rev 3:5) He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

                              (Exodus 32:33) And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
                              Now that you have brought this up, it has been brought to my attention that the Book of Life is specific to Israel and has no relation to the Body of Christ. So my name is not written within.

                              Originally posted by godrulz View Post
                              After the Fall, which was proximal to creation, the potential plan of redemption that God formulated was implemented and became certain. It became actual centuries later. Jesus did not die before He was incarnated. The phrase refers to the implementation of the plan, not a wooden literalism actuality in a space-time 4th dimension Star Trek warp.
                              Whatever it is your rambling on about I just want to make sure you know that I was explaining tetelestai's question to Stripe.
                              sigpic

                              Comment


                              • I plead sleep deprivation. Sorry for talking Klingon, not English
                                Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

                                They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
                                I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

                                Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

                                "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

                                The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

                                Comment

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