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ARCHIVE: Romans 8 and the Open View

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  • #31
    I just added to my previous post. Sorry.
    Chester

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    • #32
      I'll get back to this thread ASAP, but probably not until Tuesday.
      For Greek conversion,

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      • #33
        arminian

        whew <huff><huff> <ac-hoo>

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Jerry Shugart
          Is the Christian dealing with a LIVING GOD,or they only dealing with the iron decree of fate?

          If everything in the future of the Christian were already written in stone,why would he tell us to make our requests be known to Him in prayer?

          There is a prayer that we might consider.The Lord Himself came down to earth to be crucified on Calvary,but listen to His prayer to the Father on the very eve of Calvary:

          "O My Father,if it be possible,let this cup pass from Me"(Mt.16:39).

          With the Lord Jesus the necessity to drink it arose from no stern and irrevocable edict of the past,but from the sovereign will of a present living God.And the Father,even then,would answer His prayer if redemption could be won at any price less terrible and costly.

          Yet there are those who would rebuke a Christian mother for praying that the Lord would save the children He has given her.

          They would say,Why are you praying.Don´t you know that all things are already fated to occur just as it has already been determined by God?

          If the doctrine that all things are already predetermined to happen become a limitiation on His power to bless and save,then that doctrine denegrates into a denial of the very truth on which it rests--the sovereignty of the Almighty God.

          In His grace,--Jerry
          He was not praying that the will of God be not done but that it MIGHT BE DONE!
          He was DYING in the garden when according to the scriptures He was to die on a cross on the day of atonement(the next day) the lamb of God who was to take away the sins of the world.
          So He prayed that the cup of death would pass from Him that night.
          and "in that He feared He was heard" and angles came and ministered unto Him and strengthed Him.
          He prayed according to the WILL of God.
          For He KNEW the will of God from the SCRIPTURES(see His dealing with PETER)
          The PRIMARY means by which God has CHOSEN for His WILL to be done and the kingdom of God to be brought into mainifestation is by PRAYER.
          There was NO other way than that which was written for Him to die.
          and it took such EFFORT and agonizing prayer that He sweat drops of blood.
          So that He would not fall into tempation.
          Remember that He told the diciples to pray lest they fall into tempation for the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.
          In the flesh He would have died under the pressure of the hour which had come and the WEIGHT of sin that was pressing on Him.
          But He prayed the disiples slept.
          When the trial came He was ready and STRONG and able to stand.

          As to the rest according to your faith let be unto you.
          ALL things ARE possible to him that believeth.

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          • #35
            Ok, make that Thursday. I've been sick and have class tonighht, sorry.
            For Greek conversion,

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            • #36
              no no. by not answering today you implicitely make me the winner. I win! hurray for me! that will teach you! Ha!

              I'm sorry to take advantage of your illness like this but if it makes me win, which it does, How can you blame me?
              Last edited by 1013; July 31st, 2002, 05:02 PM.

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              • #37
                All opportunities to respond are hereby forfeit and you have voluntarily relinquished any and all further praises for a good response.

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                • #38
                  LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You guys crack me up.
                  Chester

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                  • #39
                    you sir have an excellent avatar!

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                    • #40
                      To which I must agree.

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                      • #41
                        So it looks like Jaltus doesn't have a leg to stand on. He has been defeeted.
                        Chester

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                        • #42
                          To which I must agree.

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                          • #43
                            Arminian and 1013,

                            Not ready to handle the "corporate election" stuff yet, give me some time to read and think (I have never really thought about this before). I am uncertain as to where I stand.

                            1013,
                            Ah! but you err here sir. In the open view, it is not that God does not know which choices will mess up his plans but rather he does not know which choices will be made. In a picture that Boyd calls neo molinism, God knows all of the possible choices. He knows that there are many truly possible choices open at certain given moments and there is no fact of the matter about which choice will be made. that does not mean that there is no fact of the matter of the consequences of those choices.
                            That is only if you assume the modified Molinist position, which only Boyd holds to (none of the other major OV proponents do, and David Basinger even attacks Molinism). Should we go down the Molinist road, or stick to general OV?

                            The modified Molinist position is basically the "Grandmaster Chess player" defense of the OV. God is the "omnicompentent responder" (taken from an essay by Sanders in the ETS book "Looking into the Future" edited by David Baker), knowing how to best respond to any situation. The problem is, however, that even the most competent person can get backed into a wall from time to time as bad things continually mount up. The question is, what does God do then?
                            I never see God being surprised in the consequences of choices (unless those consequences are choices themselves). But it is the choices themselves that he is surprised or disappointed in. As an aside, interestingly, though of course I believe in a sin nature, and though we emphasize so strongly how natural it is for man to sin, ironically, it seems that God is never surprised when people respond in the right way towards him. He is surprised though occasionally at horrendous sin.
                            Of course, even we are surprised at horrendous sin, and I would guess that mankind is much more cynical than God. Hmm, can God be cynical? Nevermind.
                            Now we openness folks believe that God believed that Israel would return to him but he still new that it was possible that they wouldn’t. He expected them to return but he knew the consequences if they shouldn’t. So in the open view, God not only knows all the possibilities, he has hopes for certain possibilities. So his knowledge is never wrong and in that sense God is never wrong. But his hopes for some issues may not come to pass. But that does not mean that he did not have a plan for such an event. God banished Israel to Babylon and Israel benefited from that spiritually. But I’m sure he was hoping that he would not have to do so.
                            This seems to contradict most OVers, in that they affirm that God can actually be wrong. The verse you mention is one of the instances when God was wrong, according to (at least) Sanders. Can God be wrong (e.g. hold a false belief) or not?

                            ASIDE, but relevant to Romans 8
                            Here is a real humdinger of a question: If all things work together for the good of those who love Him and have been called according to His purpose, then how can anyone lose salvation? Up until they lose salvation, God has to be working in their best interests. Wouldn't losing salvation be against their best interest? This seems a valid question for both Arminians and OVers. I need to think about this one a bit.
                            END ASIDE

                            Oh, I am going out of town tomorrow (yet another wedding) and will get back on Saturday or Sunday. I am not sure when I will post after that (maybe Monday or Tuesday). I have a busy summer, hehe.
                            For Greek conversion,

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                            • #44
                              Jaltus,

                              Not ready to handle the "corporate election" stuff yet, give me some time to read and think (I have never really thought about this before). I am uncertain as to where I stand.
                              Not a problem! I'm just throwing it out for people to think about.

                              I'm more of a New Perspective person, so I start from a totally different place.
                              Chester

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                              • #45
                                Here is a real humdinger of a question: If all things work together for the good of those who love Him and have been called according to His purpose, then how can anyone lose salvation? Up until they lose salvation, God has to be working in their best interests.
                                I guess it would be a problem for me if it said "those who WILL [in the future] love him" or "those who HAVE [once] loved him." But it only mentions those who already DO love him. I DO believe that "all things" (meaning suffering, too) work for the good of those who DO love him. That's why we should embrace "suffering."
                                Chester

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