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I question and challenge the traditional concept of 'Eternal Conscious Torment' (ECT), which presumes the wicked or 'unsaved' will be punished or tormented forever in a lake of fire, or a hell-like realm, for all eternity, to no end or resolve. I challenge this 'belief' on many levels, also as we contemplate the principles of 'free will' and the 'law of compensation'(karma) in light of the eternal will of God who is Love.

In Timotheo's thread 'Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?' I share my points in these post-links below (these are just initial commentaries,...I continue to add more thru-out this thread) -


The heart of the matter (lists other threads on the subject too)
Smashing pumpkins (link to the Battle Royal 12 - "Will unbelievers spend eternity in the lake of fire" and Battle Talk thread)
Recap of main issues (link to the James E Padgett messages)
Touching on essentials (going beyond 'biblical' assumptions)
Raising the bar
Logic is not the only tool in determing what is true
Seeing God for who He is (as Love)
How is eternal punishment just?
Love's will is supreme
Souls have immortality-potential
Misrepresenting God
Still problems
ECT Meltdown


Recent posts as of 11- 8 - 2013

Iniquity fully embraced results in death
Points covered over and over
Investigating further
The truth about 'aion'


Here is another sister thread called 'Justification of Eternal Punishment', I continue to share my thoughts starting on page 4, post # 53.


As far as soul-death or what is called 'annihilation' goes,...I refer to it as 'soul-death' or 'soul-disintegration', where the 'integrity' and 'life-potential' of a soul is 'expunged', wiped out, terminated. It becomes as if that soul did not exist, so the soul truly 'dies'. All that is of 'God', having eternal value is not lost however, and is absorbed back into God, the OverSoul of creation, the Spirit-energy Source of all that is.

An expanded and more detailed description of 'soul-death' is found in the Urantia Papers, but one must understand the terms of the teaching there, which includes 'free will', 'personality' and those conditions with enable a soul to choose eternal survival or fusion with that divine fragment of 'God' within, whereby the soul truly becomes 'immortal' like 'God'. Souls in this school's opinion can choose a final and eternal death (cessation) of existence, if and when they totally reject life and wholly embrace iniquity which results in 'death', the absence of life, a true destruction of the soul.

As shared before, other factors influence affections here, such as 'free will' and the law of karma, conditioning and determining certain and possible outcomes in the unfolding of events. There is also a more universalist outlook that sees all souls beginning as simple/innocent, progressing thru time and space to eventually/ultimately be reunited with God, thru trial & error, experience and learning, thru time and space, merging at last with their heart's true source of joy and eternal home.

All souls who still have the ability and capacity to repent or return to 'God', are allowed in that space to be saved, healed, restored, enlightened, inspired, liberated, empowered, etc. for such is the spirit of Love and Wisdom whose very nature and movement is towards wholeness, healing and salvation, building on those eternal principles of goodness, truth and beauty. Love and Life inspires such eternal survival and infinity of good, worlds witout end.

Spiritism's viewpoint here.


Updated January 22nd, 2017 at 01:34 AM by freelight



  1. Timotheos's Avatar
    Hello Freelight,
    Thanks for your support, I don't agree with everything you are saying but I appreciate what you are doing. I think we should stick together to expose the doctrine of ECT for what it is.
  2. freelight's Avatar
    Hi Tim,

    Yes,....I left the thread for awhile, but may post some quotations against the concept of ECT itself, based on the principles I've shared. I address the idea itself and try to avoid the more petty arguments over how a few passages in the Bible should be 'interpreted'.

    God Bless!

  3. Timotheos's Avatar
    I like how you approach the topic, using logic and reason. Since I am mainly discussing this with people who claim to respect and believe the bible I stick to a discussion of what the bible actually says. Especially since they accuse me of not believing the bible nearly every day. Their caustic comments made me decide to leave TOL for a little while, but I came back ready to endure their abuse with a thicker skin.
  4. freelight's Avatar
    Hello Timotheous,

    Thank you,....I see all points of view, and consider all yet extend beyond to include points from a more spiritualist perspective, but I'm open to change my opinions at any moment, if enough data presents itself or reason draws me to a different conclusion. There is alot involved in this, because one assumption or belief leads to other associative ones, which makes for various 'complexions'. I'll be posting a link of an author who has a similar view as you, against ECT. As you know I reject ECT on philosophical/pragmatic grounds, open to consider soul-death, but more of a univesalist at heart

    More to come.......

  5. freelight's Avatar

    So far beyond the technical definitions and biblical info. interpreted in various ways by different denominations, the universal principles revealed in Spiritualism continues to hold, in affording all souls the opportunity of spiritual development, reformation, rehabilitation, eternal progress and immortality (this meaning partaking of the divine nature to such a quality or degree, that the soul shares the same 'nature' as 'God' and is thus incorruptible, as God is incorruptible).

    We explore this more in the "What happens when we die?" thread. In this thread I share supports for the continuity of life (conscious individual existence) beyond the grave which opposes a 'soul-death' view that assumes all souls go to sleep (are unconscious) in the grave until resurrected.

    I've been reading many classic Spiritualist texts of spirit-communications from the spirit-world, describing the afterlife and the 'transition' process of souls into the hereafter, which naturally includes an extensive ministry of angel-helpers assisting souls during and right after transition. There is also 'rescue-work' for souls in the darker, hellish like realms, for the opportunity of repentance ever avails as long as there is genuine free will and the capability of change. It follows that souls choosing to stay in darkness remain there, until they choose a better condition via repentance (how long this may last, who can say?)

    Love never torments or eternally condemns a soul, so there is no ECT enforced by love, since individual free will reigns as far as determining personal experience. The infinity of love always reigns no matter how often opposed. Since love is timeless, no constraint of time can diminish it.

    The more liberal end of Spiritualist and Spiritist philosophy tends more towards a universalism of some kind, since the law of 'eternal progress' ever holds sway in the evolution of souls making their way Godward, towards greater stages of perfection/purification/integration. All life experiences or processes tend towards this ultimate end.

    Afterlife 101 (mega-resource site confirming after-life accounts from many reputable sources in the field)

  6. daqq's Avatar
    Hi PJ, once I began to understand what devils and demons truly are I began to understand why there is a symbolic typological need for "the lake of fire" and similar terminology. Testimony is spirit as Yeshua himself tells us that the words which he speaks are Spirit and Life. Every man therefore has at least two testimonies and the first no doubt is of the "old man" or "Esau nature", (neither do I believe that God hated a literal human being named Esau for no reason but rather uses his flesh minded NATURE to make a point). Likewise the devils all have their doctrines, every devil has his or her, (its) doctrine, and this is also because testimony is spirit. When a person is truly "born from above", (much later than modern Christianity believes) the old testimony is "cast into the fire", (which is merciful forgiveness unto the one who truly spoke the faulty testimony). The words that we speak cannot be retrieved, they travel upon the air, (prince of the power of the air) and they can never be taken back; once they leave our lips they are "forever" in the memory of whoever we may have spoken them to, for, or against, no matter how terrible they may have been. Testimony is therefore spirit-wind-breath and therefore must be somehow bound, metaphorically speaking, in everlasting eternal destruction, (the everlasting fire is made-prepared for "the Devil and his angels" or messengers). Hell then, or Hades, may be a Greek invention but the way in which it is used in the Apostolic Writings is surely more like in the way in which I have described it herein and has nothing to do with literal human souls of literal human beings, whom God has created, being eternally consciously tormented. The faulty words which we write can be burned and destroyed but the words which we burn into the hearts and minds of fellow human beings need to suffer for their crimes. It is all mainly revealed in idiomatic language and parables. The mainstream Christian doctrine of ECT is woefully carnal in its understanding of all such things. Just about anything that can turn your heart away from your Creator can be considered a devil or a demon because sin is personified beginning in the garden with the serpent, (and this fact is even more specifically notable in Genesis 4:7).
  7. freelight's Avatar
    Excellent points daqq, which transcends much of the debate over ECT in the usual circles. Words are indeed 'creative logos',....for by them we are justificed or condemned,...but we can be healed by our words as well,...speaking the right testimonies of the Lord - we then become mighty beacons or weapons for the Light. We become prophets, more or less....bubbling forth the living word.

    We are hashing ECT (eternal conscious torment) out more in this thread here (Justification for Eternal punishment). I go on to prove here with supporting articles that the concept of 'eternal punishment' is erroneous when we look at the original languages and their use/meanings, - these are more from a Universalist perspective,...but some good articles.
  8. freelight's Avatar
    Stop the insanity (a new portal-post of commentary on the ECT doctrine)
  9. freelight's Avatar
    Also ....ECT, the right to reject a doctrine on principle ( my post to Sherman)
    Updated September 30th, 2015 at 10:26 PM by freelight
  10. freelight's Avatar


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