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  1. freelight's Avatar
  2. freelight's Avatar
    1 Timothy 3:16, an interpolation? - well,...the earliest manuscripts do not have the word 'God' in this verse, such being an error or interpolation by later scribes, although some Trinitarians defend the word 'God', since it becomes another proof-text for Jesus divinity. However,...the passage IMO is about Jesus, not 'God', Jesus manifesting the mystery of godliness (righteousness/piety), but this in no wise makes Jesus 'God'. For a much more comprehensive expose of this particular passage, see my commentary and videos in this portal-post here
  3. freelight's Avatar
    Also ....ECT, the right to reject a doctrine on principle ( my post to Sherman)
    Updated September 30th, 2015 at 10:26 PM by freelight
  4. freelight's Avatar
    Stop the insanity (a new portal-post of commentary on the ECT doctrine)
  5. freelight's Avatar
    Excellent points daqq, which transcends much of the debate over ECT in the usual circles. Words are indeed 'creative logos',....for by them we are justificed or condemned,...but we can be healed by our words as well,...speaking the right testimonies of the Lord - we then become mighty beacons or weapons for the Light. We become prophets, more or less....bubbling forth the living word.

    We are hashing ECT (eternal conscious torment) out more in this thread here (Justification for Eternal punishment). I go on to prove here with supporting articles that the concept of 'eternal punishment' is erroneous when we look at the original languages and their use/meanings, - these are more from a Universalist perspective,...but some good articles.
  6. freelight's Avatar
    Blessings all, enjoy pondering the dynamics of space and time, relative to how we experience existence
  7. daqq's Avatar
    Hi PJ, once I began to understand what devils and demons truly are I began to understand why there is a symbolic typological need for "the lake of fire" and similar terminology. Testimony is spirit as Yeshua himself tells us that the words which he speaks are Spirit and Life. Every man therefore has at least two testimonies and the first no doubt is of the "old man" or "Esau nature", (neither do I believe that God hated a literal human being named Esau for no reason but rather uses his flesh minded NATURE to make a point). Likewise the devils all have their doctrines, every devil has his or her, (its) doctrine, and this is also because testimony is spirit. When a person is truly "born from above", (much later than modern Christianity believes) the old testimony is "cast into the fire", (which is merciful forgiveness unto the one who truly spoke the faulty testimony). The words that we speak cannot be retrieved, they travel upon the air, (prince of the power of the air) and they can never be taken back; once they leave our lips they are "forever" in the memory of whoever we may have spoken them to, for, or against, no matter how terrible they may have been. Testimony is therefore spirit-wind-breath and therefore must be somehow bound, metaphorically speaking, in everlasting eternal destruction, (the everlasting fire is made-prepared for "the Devil and his angels" or messengers). Hell then, or Hades, may be a Greek invention but the way in which it is used in the Apostolic Writings is surely more like in the way in which I have described it herein and has nothing to do with literal human souls of literal human beings, whom God has created, being eternally consciously tormented. The faulty words which we write can be burned and destroyed but the words which we burn into the hearts and minds of fellow human beings need to suffer for their crimes. It is all mainly revealed in idiomatic language and parables. The mainstream Christian doctrine of ECT is woefully carnal in its understanding of all such things. Just about anything that can turn your heart away from your Creator can be considered a devil or a demon because sin is personified beginning in the garden with the serpent, (and this fact is even more specifically notable in Genesis 4:7).
  8. freelight's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder's Muse

    I completely agree, freelight. Great minds do think alike

    Blessings

    I just noticed my link to the post in the thread being shared is no longer extant. The thread has been deleted, evidently. In any case,...the points shared above still hold, as it seems best to rehabilitate souls while still in the flesh, by all means possible, before assuming that the 'death penalty' is a solution or effective means of 'justice',...since killing the physical body does not necessarily change or effect the soul in a positive way, and the spirit-soul of the criminal remains in the same condition he was in, in an 'unrepentant/untransformed' state.

    I learned more about this from the spirit-world side of things, from the classic Spritualist text "Spirit Teachings" rendered thru the medium William Stainton Moses in the 1870's. Read this classic series of messages here.

    The 'death penalty' then would be a 'last resort' measure perhaps, after so many years of rehabilitation failed(?), but even here, we would question how 'murder' can be justified in any case, as a 'remedy' or 'recompense' for the committing of murder. Its just back to the old tribal law of Moses,...."an eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth" system. Is this forcing the hand of karma too far?

    Anyways,...just some random thoughts on this.

    Be well,


    pj
  9. freelight's Avatar
    As we reflect on the essence of Existence itself, and the originating reality behind existence (in all its phases and evolutions), it is that only that is 'Reality', since it that which always IS,...no matter what arises or does not arise. This is the wonderful core-truth of the 'Advaita' tradition, the essence of 'non-duality'.

    Enlightened Spirituality Portal here.

    All begins and ends with the "I" of consciousness, and what is beyond the "I" does not exist, but IS (never the less). There is only consciousness, and what is beyond consciousness (its 'source'), that is all.


    Namaste
    Updated April 19th, 2014 at 09:49 PM by freelight
  10. freelight's Avatar
    "It should never be forgotten that Occultism is concerned with the inner man, who must be strengthened and freed from the dominion of the physical body and its surroundings, which must become his servants.
    Hence the first and chief necessity of chelaship is a spirit of absolute unselfishness and devotion to Truth; then follow self-knowledge and self-mastery. These are all-important; while outward observance of fixed rules of life is a matter of secondary moment."

    - H. P.Blavatsky

    ~*~*~

    Continuing on the theme of 'self-mastery', Jesus explains more here.


    pj
  11. freelight's Avatar
    ~*~*~

    So far beyond the technical definitions and biblical info. interpreted in various ways by different denominations, the universal principles revealed in Spiritualism continues to hold, in affording all souls the opportunity of spiritual development, reformation, rehabilitation, eternal progress and immortality (this meaning partaking of the divine nature to such a quality or degree, that the soul shares the same 'nature' as 'God' and is thus incorruptible, as God is incorruptible).

    We explore this more in the "What happens when we die?" thread. In this thread I share supports for the continuity of life (conscious individual existence) beyond the grave which opposes a 'soul-death' view that assumes all souls go to sleep (are unconscious) in the grave until resurrected.

    I've been reading many classic Spiritualist texts of spirit-communications from the spirit-world, describing the afterlife and the 'transition' process of souls into the hereafter, which naturally includes an extensive ministry of angel-helpers assisting souls during and right after transition. There is also 'rescue-work' for souls in the darker, hellish like realms, for the opportunity of repentance ever avails as long as there is genuine free will and the capability of change. It follows that souls choosing to stay in darkness remain there, until they choose a better condition via repentance (how long this may last, who can say?)

    Love never torments or eternally condemns a soul, so there is no ECT enforced by love, since individual free will reigns as far as determining personal experience. The infinity of love always reigns no matter how often opposed. Since love is timeless, no constraint of time can diminish it.

    The more liberal end of Spiritualist and Spiritist philosophy tends more towards a universalism of some kind, since the law of 'eternal progress' ever holds sway in the evolution of souls making their way Godward, towards greater stages of perfection/purification/integration. All life experiences or processes tend towards this ultimate end.

    Afterlife 101 (mega-resource site confirming after-life accounts from many reputable sources in the field)


    pj
  12. freelight's Avatar
    ~*~*~

    Hi MC,

    This is just a record of my previous threads so others can get a sense of my religious interests, exploration and studies. (an archive of sorts). My blog-post with 'classic posts' is here, just a record of posts I wanted to provide a link to with a brief description for referral purposes. I often find I've covered a subject with great resource links/commentary in the past, so it saves me time to just refer to an older post, even though I usually add some new commentary to the dialogue as well. Good to give readers a wider library from which to draw.

    Be creative. Once you make your first post in your blog here, it becomes accessible on all your posts, showing how many blog entries you have. They just 'click' on the link to get to your blog.

    Blog on



    pj
  13. MichaelCadry's Avatar
    Too much for me to handle. I would have to read an awful lot to check all of this out. I hate to read, having read and re-read my book as I perfected it. It's still not perfect. But I did my best.

    I'm not much into Hinduism, etc.

    In Christ's Love,

    Michael

    P.S. You're my best friend on this site who I can trust.
    I do care about that!!
  14. freelight's Avatar
    Hello Timotheous,

    Thank you,....I see all points of view, and consider all yet extend beyond to include points from a more spiritualist perspective, but I'm open to change my opinions at any moment, if enough data presents itself or reason draws me to a different conclusion. There is alot involved in this, because one assumption or belief leads to other associative ones, which makes for various 'complexions'. I'll be posting a link of an author who has a similar view as you, against ECT. As you know I reject ECT on philosophical/pragmatic grounds, open to consider soul-death, but more of a univesalist at heart

    More to come.......


    pj
  15. Timotheos's Avatar
    I like how you approach the topic, using logic and reason. Since I am mainly discussing this with people who claim to respect and believe the bible I stick to a discussion of what the bible actually says. Especially since they accuse me of not believing the bible nearly every day. Their caustic comments made me decide to leave TOL for a little while, but I came back ready to endure their abuse with a thicker skin.
  16. freelight's Avatar
    Hi all,

    Just adding a spirit- message with commentary, on the subject of 'duration of punishments'. The following is supposed to be from the apostle Paul -

    "Union with the Divine Being is the aim of human existence. To the attainment of this aim three things are necessary--knowledge, love justice: three things are contrary to this aim--ignorance, hatred, injustice. You are false to these fundamental principles when you falsify the idea of God by exaggerating His severity; thus suggesting to the mind of the creature that there is in it more clemency, long-suffering, love, and true justice, than you attribute to the Creator. You destroy the very idea of retribution by rendering it as inadmissible, by your minds, as is, by your hearts, the policy of the Middle Ages, with its hideous array of torturers, executioners, and the stake. When the principle of indiscriminating retaliation has been banished forever from human legislation, can you hope to make men believe that principle to be the rule of the Divine Government? Believe me, brothers in God and in Jesus Christ, you must either resign yourselves to let all your dogmas perish in your hands rather than modify them, or you must revivify them by opening them to the beneficent action that good spirits are now bringing to bear on them. The idea of a hell full of glowing furnaces and boiling cauldrons might be credible in an age of iron; in the nineteenth century it can be nothing more than an empty phantom, capable, at the utmost, of frightening little children, and by which the children themselves will no longer be frightened when they are a little bigger. By your persistence in upholding mythic terrors, you engender incredulity, source of every sort of social disorganization; and I tremble at beholding the very foundations of social order shaken, and crumbling into dust, for want of an authoritative code of penality. Let all those who are animated by a living and ardent faith, heralds of the coming day, unite their efforts, not to keep up antiquated fables now fallen into disrepute, but to resuscitate and revivify the true idea of penality, under forms in harmony with the usages, sentiments, and enlightenment of your epoch.

    "What, in fact, is 'a sinner'? One who, by a deviation from the right road, by a false movement of the soul, has swerved from the true aim of his creation, which consists in the harmonious worship of the Beautiful, the Good, as embodied in the archetype of humanity, the Divine Exemplar, Jesus Christ.

    "What is 'chastisement'? The natural, derivative consequence of that false movement; the amount of pain necessary to disgust the sinner with his departure from rectitude, by his experience of the suffering caused by that departure. Chastisement is the goad which, by the smarting it occasions, decides the soul to cut short its wanderings, and to return into the right road. The sole aim of chastisement is rehabilitation; and therefore, to assume the eternity of chastisement is to deprive it of all reason for existing.

    "Cease, I beseech you, the attempt to establish a parallelism of duration between good, essence of the Creator, and evil, essence of the creature; for, in so doing, you establish a standard of penality that is utterly without justification. Affirm, on the contrary, the gradual diminution of imperfections and of chastisements through successive existences, and you consecrate the doctrine of the union of the creature with the Creator by the reconciliation of justice with mercy."


    - Apostle Paul


    Here we see that higher reason holds that chastisments are naturally corrective in nature, and that souls according to Spiritism are afforded multiple life experience (embodiments) to learn, develop and perfect themselves according to the law of progress and eternal principles. This understanding is much more integrous and beneficent than a more primitive barbaric concept of subjecting souls to an eternity of punishments from which there is no hope or salvation, a 'belief' that is actually against the will of God and Life itself.

    More from other spirits here. (Lamennais & Plato)



    pj
    Updated February 18th, 2013 at 04:37 PM by freelight
  17. freelight's Avatar
    Hi Tim,

    Yes,....I left the thread for awhile, but may post some quotations against the concept of ECT itself, based on the principles I've shared. I address the idea itself and try to avoid the more petty arguments over how a few passages in the Bible should be 'interpreted'.

    God Bless!



    pj
  18. Timotheos's Avatar
    Hello Freelight,
    Thanks for your support, I don't agree with everything you are saying but I appreciate what you are doing. I think we should stick together to expose the doctrine of ECT for what it is.
  19. freelight's Avatar
    Hi Freelight,
    Thanks for your response. I am a very language oriented person but as I age am finding language to be inadequate to the task of expressing my sense of union with life and the Creator of life.
    Hi pat,....yes,..but 'language' is our primary tool for conveying ideas, communicating, sharing knowledge, translating concepts, etc. At best in 'theology', words serve as 'pointers', symbols, descriptions.

    I struggle with how little we know of each other or ourselves(myself) and yet we presume to judge.
    We can help but judge to some degree as a natural reflex, but are called to be careful of our judgments, withholding such, until more light, wisdom, genuine discernment is afforded us. Its a delicate thing, as we would hope to be true arbiters of knowledge. Here is where surrender to Spirit is essential, if we would be portals of love.

    It is necessary while living in society to have some standard of normative behavior but beyond that we waste our time and risk doing immense harm to one another.
    The challenge of society, community and where we are going, what is our true values? Much to consider and put into practice to effect real change.

    When I really look into the eyes of another person I usually see Light. But not always.
    Its always a blessing to have 'light meet light', an inner luminosity. It encourages life. If we see one with darkness, we can only hope to shine the light.

    bless u,


    paul
  20. bybee's Avatar
    Hi Freelight,
    Thanks for your response. I am a very language oriented person but as I age am finding language to be inadequate to the task of expressing my sense of union with life and the Creator of life.
    I struggle with how little we know of each other or ourselves(myself) and yet we presume to judge. It is necessary while living in society to have some standard of normative behavior but beyond that we waste our time and risk doing immense harm to one another.
    When I really look into the eyes of another person I usually see Light. But not always.
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