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intojoy
February 27th, 2014, 10:40 AM
There is a misguided idea out there that God has two Covenants, one being the Law and the other being the imaginary Covenant of Grace found nowhere in scripture. Lol

I have a problem with this. Because this 2 covenant theory implies that God saved people by works in one part of the history of mankind and now God saves people by grace.

God has only saved anyone who has ever been saved by grace alone.

If this is not how the 2 covenant theory is supposed to be soteriologically understood then tell me what is meant by a covenant of law and a covenant of grace (that is found nowhere in scripture).

The bible doesn't need to spell out a covenant of grace because grace has always been the method of salvation.

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intojoy
February 27th, 2014, 10:44 AM
Blood is in the water...just a matter of time til the Calvinists show up

HisServant
February 27th, 2014, 10:46 AM
Blood is in the water...just a matter of time til the Calvinists show up

As a TULIP subscriber, I have no objection to your post.

intojoy
February 27th, 2014, 10:56 AM
As a TULIP subscriber, I have no objection to your post.


Cool. I'm a Calvinist with a speech impediment I can only pronounce TUIP

Squeaky
February 27th, 2014, 11:00 AM
GRACE -UNCILISITED MERCY-NEW TESTAMENT-THE LAW OF CHRIST
Eph 2:8
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
John 1:14
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
John 1:16-17
16 And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace.
17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
Acts 15:11
11 "But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they."
Acts 20:32
32 "So now, brethren, I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified.
Rom 1:5-6
5 Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name,
6 among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;
Rom 3:24
24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Rom 4:16
16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all
Rom 5:1-2
1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Rom 5:15
15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.
Gal 3:16
16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed," who is Christ.
Rom 5:17-20
17 For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more,
Rom 5:21
21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
John 15:14
14 "You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.
I Jn 2:4
4 He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
I Jn 2:3
3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
I Jn 5:3
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.
(NKJ)
xxxGrace is uncilisted mercy. Grace is a new way thought up by God, we dont deserve it, we have not earned it, we didnt even think of it but God gave it to us-a new way the new testament. God looked down on us and said them dummies arent getting it I have to think of a new way. The new testament is our Grace. Now within the new testament there are commandments. Jesus brought us the new testament, this is how Grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. Not knowing what the gift of grace was, so many are useing grace as an excuse to sin. Grace is not a way to justify sin, it is a better way to get rid of sin.

John 15:13-14
13 "Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends.
14 "You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.
(NKJ)

Gal 6:2
2 Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.
(NKJ)

John 15:10
10 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.
(NKJ)

God didnt do away with the idea of what He says is law, He just changed the law. And only for those who have faith in the new law.

Heb 7:12
12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.
(NKJ)


1 Cor 15:9-11
9 For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all, yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
11 Therefore, whether it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.
(NKJ)

Eph 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
(NKJ)

Titus 2:11-13
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,
13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
(NKJ)

Rom 5:16
16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification.
(NKJ)

nikolai_42
February 27th, 2014, 11:37 AM
There is a misguided idea out there that God has two Covenants, one being the Law and the other being the imaginary Covenant of Grace found nowhere in scripture. Lol

I have a problem with this. Because this 2 covenant theory implies that God saved people by works in one part of the history of mankind and now God saves people by grace.

God has only saved anyone who has ever been saved by grace alone.

If this is not how the 2 covenant theory is supposed to be soteriologically understood then tell me what is meant by a covenant of law and a covenant of grace (that is found nowhere in scripture).

The bible doesn't need to spell out a covenant of grace because grace has always been the method of salvation.

God has made many covenants - or at least signified His covenants in different ways. We read of the covenant of circumcision (Genesis 17:7-14), the covenant of the sabbath (Exodus 31:16) and the covenant that most are familiar with - the ten commandments (Exodus 34:28). Now, God also speaks of the "blood of the covenant" in regards to Moses (Exodus 24:5-8). The blood of the covenant was repeated over and over again because it couldn't take away sin (Hebrews 10:4). The covenants signified by circumcision and the sabbath are spoken of by Paul as not enforced - not the means of salvation. They were all works-based and hearken back to the old covenant(primarily Colossians 2:16 and Galatians 5:2-3). Leviticus 18 deals with Israel staying away from the detestable practices of the surrounding nations. And specifically, Leviticus 18:5 says a man will live if he obeys what God commands. And those commands were summarized in the ten commandments.

And, of course, smack in the middle of this (the old and its supercession) is the New Covenant.

And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Matthew 26:27-28

And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it.
And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.
Mark 14:23-24

And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
Luke 22:19-20

Which all is hinted at here :

Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jeremiah 31:31-33

For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Hebrews 8:12-13

The old covenant was broken by Israel, and the new covenant was God working in them to make them His.

So it is clearly established that :

1. There are at least two significant covenants between God and Israel
2. That Israel broke the first covenant by disobeying God
3. That the old covenant was superceded by a new covenant in the blood of Christ (since the blood of bulls and goats could never take away sin)
4. That the new covenant was unilaterally God's work in man

The only ambiguity (that I see, anyway) is if the Old Covenant was explicitly for salvation by works. Since Abraham was credited with faith, we can say that at least there were some who surpassed that strictly legal requirement. But it was by faith and it always has been by faith. But that doesn't invalidate the covenant that God made - if indeed it was salvation by works then the fact that no one could fulfill it only serves to show God's Sovereignty in bringing about the second (which He really did before the world was - thus Abraham could be justified by faith since Christ hadn't appeared yet).

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
Acts 17:30-31

The Old Covenant is not the standard by which any will be judged. They will all be judged by Christ - in the new covenant.

Now....that all seems a little too straightforward to me. So I suspect I've missed at least part of your point. Or maybe just wrong....?

beloved57
February 27th, 2014, 01:01 PM
The Imaginary Covenant of Grace

Its nothing imaginary about it, its the Everlasting Covenat Heb 13:20 which was Established in Christ Jesus, the Mediator of the Covenant before the world began 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

intojoy
February 27th, 2014, 02:05 PM
God has made many covenants - or at least signified His covenants in different ways. We read of the covenant of circumcision (Genesis 17:7-14), the covenant of the sabbath (Exodus 31:16) and the covenant that most are familiar with - the ten commandments (Exodus 34:28). Now, God also speaks of the "blood of the covenant" in regards to Moses (Exodus 24:5-8). The blood of the covenant was repeated over and over again because it couldn't take away sin (Hebrews 10:4). The covenants signified by circumcision and the sabbath are spoken of by Paul as not enforced - not the means of salvation. They were all works-based and hearken back to the old covenant(primarily Colossians 2:16 and Galatians 5:2-3). Leviticus 18 deals with Israel staying away from the detestable practices of the surrounding nations. And specifically, Leviticus 18:5 says a man will live if he obeys what God commands. And those commands were summarized in the ten commandments.

And, of course, smack in the middle of this (the old and its supercession) is the New Covenant.

And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Matthew 26:27-28

And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it.
And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.
Mark 14:23-24

And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
Luke 22:19-20




Now....that all seems a little too straightforward to me. So I suspect I've missed at least part of your point. Or maybe just wrong....?


Thanks.

I don't see the covenants as "many covenants" just 8.

Edenic Adamic Noahic Abrahamic Land Mosaic Davidic and New.

But I like the passages you shared.

Salvation was by grace with Adam. Adam hid himself and was sought after by God. Was there a Covenant of Grace made with Adam? If there was it wasn't spelled out. The blood of the animals became a covering for Adam. At least their skins covered him. The proto-evangelion was given in Gen 3. Did I spell that right?

I believe one valid option of rightly dividing the word is thru the 8 covenants. So of course having "many covenants" or a covenant of grace that is never made throws a wrench in that machine.

What I mean by not being spelled out is I don't find in the bible a place where God tells man he is saved by grace via a covenant or contract. The truth of this grace salvation is taught throughout the bible beginning with Adam and emphasized by the writers of scripture but no God - Man covenant is recorded. I agree that the New Covenant was made with Yeshua's blood but it says that the New Covenant would be different from the old one that was added to the other covenant, the Mosaic Covenant added to the Abrahamic Covenant.

The confusing thing about the two covenant theory is in the soteriology. Tell me, please where I am misguided in my observation concerning this. Perhaps only some extremes of 2 Cov theology are guilty of my perception of their belief?

nikolai_42
February 27th, 2014, 02:49 PM
Thanks.

I don't see the covenants as "many covenants" just 8.

Edenic Adamic Noahic Abrahamic Land Mosaic Davidic and New.

But I like the passages you shared.

Salvation was by grace with Adam. Adam hid himself and was sought after by God. Was there a Covenant of Grace made with Adam? If there was it wasn't spelled out. The blood of the animals became a covering for Adam. At least their skins covered him. The proto-evangelion was given in Gen 3. Did I spell that right?

I believe one valid option of rightly dividing the word is thru the 8 covenants. So of course having "many covenants" or a covenant of grace that is never made throws a wrench in that machine.

What I mean by not being spelled out is I don't find in the bible a place where God tells man he is saved by grace via a covenant or contract. The truth of this grace salvation is taught throughout the bible beginning with Adam and emphasized by the writers of scripture but no God - Man covenant is recorded. I agree that the New Covenant was made with Yeshua's blood but it says that the New Covenant would be different from the old one that was added to the other covenant, the Mosaic Covenant added to the Abrahamic Covenant.

The confusing thing about the two covenant theory is in the soteriology. Tell me, please where I am misguided in my observation concerning this. Perhaps only some extremes of 2 Cov theology are guilty of my perception of their belief?

I don't know that I'm going to be any help when it comes to those labels. When I think of 2 Covenant theories, my mind typically fixes on the sort espoused by the likes of Hagee (Jews are still under a different covenant, evangelizing a Jew can be sin etc...) which I think is very serious error indeed. I don't honestly know if I would be considered a "2 Covenant" man in the strict sense. I just know that I see two things at work where one was fading away and the other was instituted. Formally, that is.

And that might be the issue in your thinking. Just from what you write, I would say that you are right. That Grace always saved. But I would also say that the Testament in Christ's blood is the covenant of Grace. The only one. Right from Genesis 3:16 we see God speaking of it - though only indirectly. Abraham saw it and rejoiced. But there were types and shadows in the way of the real thing that was instituted (in an eternal sense) even before Adam sinned. Those types and shadows - called "the times of ignorance" in Acts 17:30 - darkened natural man's understanding. And until Christ was revealed to the world, God "winked" at that ignorance. That's why Abraham's faith was so significant. It was in something not to be revealed for hundreds of years and not even to be realized by him in his natural life! As a slight aside, I think that's why Jesus kept telling people who He healed not to tell anyone - because He wanted His fame to be limited to Israel for as long as possible. Once the Greeks got word of Him and visited Him, He immediately said His time had come (John 12:19-23). The longer the word was kept local to Israel, the longer (in theory) His ministry on earth would have lasted.

All that is to say that I believe you are right to a point. Nowhere is Grace openly instituted in covenant - until Christ appears. But because we have hindsight, we see that that Grace was in effect from the beginning of the world and so available to everyone from Adam on down. That it wasn't formalized in terms of a covenant, doesn't mean God didn't operate on those terms with those who, like Abraham, came to Him in faith.

At least that's my take on it...

intojoy
February 27th, 2014, 06:01 PM
Well I agree with everything you said. But questions arose in my mind when you mentioned the limited ministry of Yeshua to Israel, when you said that He asked those He healed not to tell anyone. I believe I was taught that only post healing of the mute demoniac was this policy of silence instituted. This is where the understanding of the specific covenants is valuable for me. Particularly where as you stated rightly that Abraham never physically realized the covenant of Yeshua's blood. I agree that this can be seen as the covenant of grace if it can be proven to be one in the same with the New Covenant if jer 31. But for that to be the case (and I think it can be married to that covenant), it requires a full understanding of the unconditional and eternal nature of Abe's covenant and more importantly why there was the need to add to that covenant the 613 laws of the Mosaic covenant. Because in order for jer 31 to be called the covenant of grace the literal physical realization of that promise to Israel must come to pass.

It will come to pass and it will be because of God's grace that all Israel shall be saved.

I do have much to learn and I thank you for the help.

intojoy
February 27th, 2014, 06:02 PM
I hope I'm not giving you a head ache

Brother Ducky
February 27th, 2014, 06:21 PM
There is a misguided idea out there that God has two Covenants, one being the Law and the other being the imaginary Covenant of Grace found nowhere in scripture. Lol

I have a problem with this. Because this 2 covenant theory implies that God saved people by works in one part of the history of mankind and now God saves people by grace.

God has only saved anyone who has ever been saved by grace alone.

If this is not how the 2 covenant theory is supposed to be soteriologically understood then tell me what is meant by a covenant of law and a covenant of grace (that is found nowhere in scripture).

The bible doesn't need to spell out a covenant of grace because grace has always been the method of salvation.

For what it is worth. From the Westminster Confession of Faith:
CHAPTER 7



Of God’s Covenant with Man.


I. The distance between God and the creature is so great, that although reasonable creatures do owe obedience unto him as their Creator, yet they could never have any fruition of him as their blessedness and reward, but by some voluntary condescension on God’s part, which he hath been pleased to express by way of covenant.a


a Isa. 40:13-17; Job. 9:32,33; 1 Sam. 2:25; Ps. 113:5,6; Ps. 100:2,3; Job. 22:2,3; Job 35:7,8; Luke 17:10; Acts 17:24,25.


II. The first covenant made with man was a covenant of works,b wherein life was promised to Adam, and in him to his posterity,c upon condition of perfect and personal obedience.d


b Gal. 3:12.
c Rom. 10:5, Rom. 5:12-20.
d Gen. 2:17; Gal. 3:10.


III. Man by his fall having made himself incapable of life by that covenant, the Lord was pleased to make a second,e commonly called the Covenant of Grace: whereby he freely offereth unto sinners life and salvation by Jesus Christ, requiring of them faith in him, that they may be saved;f and promising to give unto all those that are ordained unto life his Holy Spirit, to make them willing and able to believe.g


e Gal. 3:21; Rom. 8:3; Rom. 3:20,21; Gen. 3:15; Isa. 42:6.
f Mark 16:15,16; John 3:16; Rom. 10:6,9; Gal. 3:11.
g Ezek. 36:26,27; John 6:44,45.


IV. This covenant of grace is frequently set forth in the scripture by the name of a Testament, in reference to the death of Jesus Christ the testator, and to the everlasting inheritance, with all things belonging to it, therein bequeathed.h


h Heb. 9:15-17; Heb. 7:22; Luke 22:20; 1 Cor. 11:25.


V. This covenant was differently administered in the time of the law, and in the time of the gospel;i under the law it was administered by promises, prophecies, sacrifices, circumcision, the paschal lamb, and other types and ordinances delivered to the people of the Jews, all foresignifying Christ to come,k which were for that time sufficient and efficacious, through the operation of the spirit, to instruct and build up the elect in faith in the promised Messiah,l by whom they had full remission of sins, and eternal salvation; and is called, the Old Testament.m


i 2 Cor. 3:6-9.
k Heb. chap. 8 to 10; Rom. 4:11; Col. 2:11,12; 1 Cor. 5:7.
l 1 Cor. 10:1-4; Heb. 11:13; John 8:56.
m Gal. 3:7-9,14.


VI. Under the gospel, when Christ the substancen was exhibited, the ordinances in which this covenant is dispensed are the preaching of the word, and the administration of the sacraments of Baptism and the Lord’s Supper,o which, though fewer in number, and administered with more simplicity and less outward glory, yet, in them it is held forth in more fulness, evidence, and spiritual efficacy,p to all nations, both Jews and Gentiles;q and is called the New Testament.r There are not therefore two covenants of grace differing in substance, but one and the same under various dispensations.s


n Col. 2:17.
o Matt. 28:19,20; 1 Cor. 11:23-25.
p Heb. 12:22-28; Jer. 31:33,34.
q Matt. 28:19; Eph. 2:15-19.
r Luke 22:20.
s Gal. 3:14,16; Rom 3:21-23,30; Ps. 32:1 with Rom. 4:3,6,16,17,23,24; Heb. 13:8; Acts 15:11.

intojoy
February 27th, 2014, 06:24 PM
Why would the Edenic covenant be a covenant of works?

And if it were a covenant of works meaning salvation by works then why was Adam forgiven?

tomlapalm
February 27th, 2014, 08:13 PM
People are incorrectly interchanging Covenant and Dispensation.

Mr. 5020
February 27th, 2014, 08:19 PM
There is a misguided idea out there that God has two Covenants, one being the Law and the other being the imaginary Covenant of Grace found nowhere in scripture. Lol

I have a problem with this. Because this 2 covenant theory implies that God saved people by works in one part of the history of mankind and now God saves people by grace.

God has only saved anyone who has ever been saved by grace alone.

If this is not how the 2 covenant theory is supposed to be soteriologically understood then tell me what is meant by a covenant of law and a covenant of grace (that is found nowhere in scripture).

The bible doesn't need to spell out a covenant of grace because grace has always been the method of salvation.Indeed. Genesis 15:6

wordsponge
February 27th, 2014, 10:44 PM
There is a misguided idea out there that God has two Covenants, one being the Law and the other being the imaginary Covenant of Grace found nowhere in scripture. Lol

I have a problem with this. Because this 2 covenant theory implies that God saved people by works in one part of the history of mankind and now God saves people by grace.

God has only saved anyone who has ever been saved by grace alone.

If this is not how the 2 covenant theory is supposed to be soteriologically understood then tell me what is meant by a covenant of law and a covenant of grace (that is found nowhere in scripture).

The bible doesn't need to spell out a covenant of grace because grace has always been the method of salvation.
***
Only Jews ignore the the 2nd Covenant and call it Christian propaganda.
Now Jews call themselves messianics and remain under the law...

They never baptize calling on Jesus.

The Spirit LED cannot be deceived..

intojoy
February 27th, 2014, 10:48 PM
***

Only Jews ignore the the 2nd Covenant and call it Christian propaganda.

Now Jews call themselves messianics and remain under the law...



They never baptize calling on Jesus.



The Spirit LED cannot be deceived..


Actually there are now Torah observant Messianics. I'm not one of them but they exist.

Ben Masada
February 28th, 2014, 02:59 PM
There is a misguided idea out there that God has two Covenants, one being the Law and the other being the imaginary Covenant of Grace found nowhere in scripture. Lol

I have a problem with this. Because this 2 covenant theory implies that God saved people by works in one part of the history of mankind and now God saves people by grace.

God has only saved anyone who has ever been saved by grace alone.

If this is not how the 2 covenant theory is supposed to be soteriologically understood then tell me what is meant by a covenant of law and a covenant of grace (that is found nowhere in scripture).

The bible doesn't need to spell out a covenant of grace because grace has always been the method of salvation.

Tell me Intojoy, what is the difference between being saved by grace and being saved by obedience to the Law? Evidences abound that to be saved by obedience to the Law we can verify it in the every-day life as we live in society. But to be saved by grace, believe me, I have no convincing evidence to prove it as a fact.

According to the gospel of Paul in Romans 7:25 I have found that in Christ he could serve God's Law in spirit and the law of sin in the flesh and still be approved. But in the daily living we cannot test that Pauline position before a judge because we will be in big trouble. So, what's you answer to my question above?

intojoy
February 28th, 2014, 04:38 PM
First this presupposes I am a sinner by nature and that I was born spiritually sinful.

If I use the Law to receive forgiveness I am paying for my own debt. My salvation is on my own shoulders.

I believe that God's standard for righteousness is not attainable thus although my adherence to a Law as holy and righteous as the Torah is well intended, the fact that I could not perfectly keep every one of its 613 commands requires that God provide some grace to me.

Adam sinned and he hid himself. Adam did not repent nor did he seek God but rather he hid himself.

David hid his adultery with Bathsheba with the greater sin of murder, he too did not repent but God sought him out to give mercy and grace to him.

By being forgiven apart from obeying the Law I am allowing my debt to be paid for by God in the same way Adam and David did.
I did not seek after God but rather the message from God of a Jewish Messiah was given to my ears and I was saved.

Brother Ducky
February 28th, 2014, 05:31 PM
Why would the Edenic covenant be a covenant of works?

And if it were a covenant of works meaning salvation by works then why was Adam forgiven?

I am not sure that "salvation by works" would have the same meaning for pre-fall Adam as it would mean for us. For us, the idea is doing stuff under our own power so that God looks favorably on us and eventually takes us to heaven. For Adam, the idea seems to be more in the line of obedience to God and part of that obedience is the doing of stuff [Gen 2:15] or works. Adam would never have been saved by the doing of anything, he had not yet fallen.

Adam's forgiveness does not rest on his works because he would need to be forgiven and saved on the same basis as the rest of us -- Christ Jesus. He has saved in the same manner as the rest of us, by grave through faith on the basis of the death of Jesus.

4wings
March 1st, 2014, 05:09 AM
a good post, BD,

1CHRONICLES 1:1 speaks volumes,
Adam, Seth, Enosh.

fishrovmen
March 1st, 2014, 06:20 AM
Thanks.

I don't see the covenants as "many covenants" just 8.

Edenic Adamic Noahic Abrahamic Land Mosaic Davidic and New.

But I like the passages you shared.

Salvation was by grace with Adam. Adam hid himself and was sought after by God. Was there a Covenant of Grace made with Adam? If there was it wasn't spelled out. The blood of the animals became a covering for Adam. At least their skins covered him. The proto-evangelion was given in Gen 3. Did I spell that right?

I believe one valid option of rightly dividing the word is thru the 8 covenants. So of course having "many covenants" or a covenant of grace that is never made throws a wrench in that machine.

What I mean by not being spelled out is I don't find in the bible a place where God tells man he is saved by grace via a covenant or contract. The truth of this grace salvation is taught throughout the bible beginning with Adam and emphasized by the writers of scripture but no God - Man covenant is recorded. I agree that the New Covenant was made with Yeshua's blood but it says that the New Covenant would be different from the old one that was added to the other covenant, the Mosaic Covenant added to the Abrahamic Covenant.

The confusing thing about the two covenant theory is in the soteriology. Tell me, please where I am misguided in my observation concerning this. Perhaps only some extremes of 2 Cov theology are guilty of my perception of their belief?

Where were the Edenic and Adamic covenants given in Scripture? or are they assumed?

Squeaky
March 1st, 2014, 08:12 AM
COVENANTS TWO COVENANTS(TESTAMENTS)
Gal 4:22-24
22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise,
24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar--
Gal 4:28-5:4
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.
29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? "Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman."
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.
CHAPTER 5
1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.
2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.
3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
Heb 8:6-7
6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
Heb 8:13
13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
Heb 7:18-19
18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness,
19 for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.
Heb 7:22
22 by so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant.
Heb 9:15-17
15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
16 For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives.
Heb 10:9-10
9 then He said, "Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God." He takes away the first that He may establish the second.
10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Luke 16:16
16 "The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it.
(NKJ)
Matt 11:12-13
12 "And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force.
13 "For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
2 Cor 3:11-17
11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.
12 Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech--
13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away.
14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ.
15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart.
16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
Gal 4:19-21
19 My little children, for whom I labor in birth again until Christ is formed in you,
20 I would like to be present with you now and to change my tone; for I have doubts about you.
21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law?
Gal 4:25-26
25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children--
26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Gal 4:27
27 For it is written: "Rejoice, O barren, you who do not bear! Break forth and shout, you who are not in labor! For the desolate has many more children than she who has a husband."
Gal 3:20-23
20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.
22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.
Gal 4:6-7
6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!"
7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
Gal 3:12
12 Yet the law is not of faith, but "the man who does them shall live by them."
Gal 3:15
15 Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man's covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it.
Gal 3:17-18
17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect.
18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
Acts 13:39
39 "and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.
Luke 22:35-36
35 And He said to them, "When I sent you without money bag, knapsack, and sandals, did you lack anything?" So they said, "Nothing."
36 Then He said to them, "But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one.
Rom 8:13
13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Rom 9:30-32
30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith;
31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone.
James 2:10
10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.
Heb 9:22
22 And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.
(NKJ)
xxxx There are two covenants(testaments). Just as Abraham had to send one son away so we have to send one covenant away. You cant let them grow together inside you. One or the other not both. The old testament is the law of sin and death, first covenant. The new testament is the law of Christ second covenant.

Heb 10:9
9 then He said, "Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God." He takes away the first that He may establish the second.
(NKJ)

Rom 7:4-9
4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another-- to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.
6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, "You shall not covet."
8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead.
9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.
(NKJ)

Luke 16:16
16 "The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it.
(NKJ)

Matt 11:12-13
12 "And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force.
13 "For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
(NKJ)

Gal 6:2
2 Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.
(NKJ)

rainee
March 1st, 2014, 08:43 AM
Oh man, what a great thread.

And I think I see pretty clearly why Nang says women like me should shut the heck up.

But may I simply say that I trust I will not mess anything up after these very solid and informative posts.

And I would like to ask doesn't Squeaky show in some verses that there are only two covenants on one level?

The First, was to Israel (Exodus 3:6, 7)
And the New one, or Everlasting one, was to Israel.
(as was stipulated in the First one.. And we the gentiles are part of that.)
(yes?)

intojoy
March 1st, 2014, 08:18 PM
Where were the Edenic and Adamic covenants given in Scripture? or are they assumed?


I. THE EDENIC COVENANT:

A. Scripture: Genesis 1:28-30: And God blessed them: and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over every living thing that moves upon the earth. And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb yielding seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for food: and to every beast of the earth, and to every bird of the heavens, and to everything that creeps upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for food: and it was so.

Genesis 2:15-17: And Jehovah God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. And Jehovah God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat: but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it: for in the day that you eat thereof you shall surely die.

Hosea 6:7: But they like Adam have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me.

B. The Participants in the Covenant The Edenic Covenant was made between God and Adam in which Adam stood as the representative head of the human race. Thus the actions of Adam are attributed to the whole of humanity.

C. The Provisions of the Covenant All together, there were a total of seven provisions in the Edenic Covenant. First: man was told: Be fruitful, and multiply and replenish the earth (Gen. 1:28a). The earth was created for the purpose of being the habitation of man, and then man was created on the sixth day. Man was told to populate the earth; so the increase in population is part of his commission. The earth was to be filled with humanity .

Second: man was told to subdue the earth (Gen. 1:28b). Previously, authority over the earth had been given to Satan (Ezek. 28:11-19). But when Satan fell, he lost his authority over this earth. That is the reason Genesis 1:2 describes the earth as being covered by water and darkness being over the face of the deep. Hence, God began to form and fashion the earth anew to make it habitable for man, and this time He would give man the authority over the earth. Man was to subdue it; he was to use the natural resources and energies of the earth that God had provided for him. However, this did not mean he was allowed to pollute it!
Third: man was given dominion over all living things (Gen.1:28c). The earlier provision gave man authority over the earth as far as non living things were concerned. This provision extended man's authority over all living creatures. The entire animal kingdom on the earth, in the air, and in the sea was put under the authority of man. The first exercise of this authority was man's naming of the animals (Gen. 2:19-20).

The fourth provision concerned man's diet (Gen. 1:29-30; 2:16). At this point man was to be a vegetarian. There is nothing in this covenant that allowed him to eat of the animal kingdom although he was to exercise authority over it. No blood of any kind was to be shed.

A fifth provision directed man to dress and to keep the Garden of Eden (Gen. 2:15). Even in his unfallen state, man was not to lead a life of pure leisure; work was part of the human ethic even before the Fall. However, labor was easy and the land would produce easily; it was not toilsome.

The sixth provision was that man was forbidden to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Gen. 2:17a). This was the only negative commandment in the entire Edenic Covenant and was the one point that would test man's obedience. He was free to eat of all the other trees of the garden but was to refrain from eating of that one. This was the one test to see how man would respond to the will of God; it was a test of the recognition of and the submission to the will of God. Man was not to assume that, because he was given authority over the earth and the animal kingdom, he himself was independent of God and exempt from God's law. The question that raises is, “Will man, like Satan before him, reject God's right to rule and declare himself independent of God?”

The seventh provision contained a penalty for disobedience: spiritual death (Gen. 2:17b). This cannot refer to physical death because man did not die on the very day that he disobeyed the commandment. So the death spoken of here must be spiritual death. In the day that he eats of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, he will be separated from God and will die spiritually.

D. The Status of the Covenant The Edenic Covenant was the basis for the Dispensation of Innocence. The record of the Edenic Covenant's being broken is found in Genesis 3:1-8.

Satan appeared in the Garden of Eden as a fallen creature. This shows that man was not created in a perfect universe, for sin was already in existence. Although it was not yet existent in man, it was already present in Satan. The devil did his work of tempting man in the same three areas as set forth in I John 2:16.

The first phrase of Genesis 3:6: And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, corresponds to the first phrase of I John 2:16: the lust of the flesh.The second phrase of Genesis 3:6:and that it was a delight to the eyes, corresponds to the second phrase of I John 2:16:the lust of the eyes. And the third phrase of Genesis 3:6:and that it was a delight to the eyes, corresponds to the second phrase of I John 2:16: and the vainglory [pride] of life

Eve gave in to the temptation and disobeyed the one negative commandment. Adam recognized what had happened, but he still chose to join his wife in disobedience. Their first reaction was an attempt to hide from the presence of God, which only illustrated the truth of Genesis 2:17. Man at that very moment died spiritually and could no longer share the same communion with God he had experienced before his disobedience. With that act, the Edenic Covenant, being conditional, came to an end.

Dr Fruchtenbaum

way 2 go
March 1st, 2014, 09:22 PM
There is a misguided idea out there that God has two Covenants, one being the Law and the other being the imaginary Covenant of Grace found nowhere in scripture. Lol



The bible doesn't need to spell out a covenant of grace because grace has always been the method of salvation.



Lev 4:27 "If anyone of the common people sins unintentionally in doing any one of the things
that by the LORD's commandments ought not to be done, and realizes his guilt,
Lev 4:28 or the sin which he has committed is made known to
him, he shall bring for his offering a goat, a female without blemish, for his sin which he has committed.
Lev 4:31 And all its fat he shall remove, as the fat is removed from the peace offerings,
and the priest shall burn it on the altar for a pleasing aroma to the LORD. And the priest shall make atonement for him, and he shall be forgiven.


are you saying in the old testament
God was wasting his breath
telling people to make atonement for there sin ?

intojoy
March 1st, 2014, 09:24 PM
No but you are calling the entire Old Testament the old covenant aren't you?

What are you doin' son?

way 2 go
March 1st, 2014, 10:47 PM
No
but you are calling the entire Old Testament the old covenant aren't you?

Moses to Jesus


What are you doin' son?

you said

grace has always been the method of salvation.

Moses to Jesus its been faith works with grace

Angel4Truth
March 1st, 2014, 10:49 PM
Blood is in the water...just a matter of time til the Calvinists show up

I thought you were calvinist? :think:

intojoy
March 1st, 2014, 11:33 PM
I thought you were calvinist? :think:


No. I am a moderate. But my view can be defined as a four pointer.

I'm a Christian. Thx for praying for my granpop. They switched his meds from morphine to oxycodone.

I'm able to be with him w/out his mind being fearful. Thank you

rainee
March 2nd, 2014, 09:01 AM
Please excuse me, excuse me, excuse me. I do not want to be a stir-er up of confusion. I just like to challenge your mind the way you challenge mine. But somehow I fear I can be trouble because I 'm female - somehow I may have the power of persuasion... I'm sorry for that - do not be easily moved.

Ready?

Where is the blood?

With a pact known as a covenant shouldn't there be a number of things present?
Like a blood sacrifice?

AS an example I offer Noah and God's covenant with him and all living things.
Noah sacrificed and God gave the covenant and then a sign of the covenant, yes? Or no?

Same with Abraham - there is sacrifice (blood) at that time too.

And do you count the covenant that started with Abraham
but got more and more whatever you want to call it, complex, difficult, and hard - then do you call this covenant as plurals? When it is same Two Participants - God and Abe and his offspring?

But as for Adam. God did kill an animal and made skins to cover man - but was man given a covenant at that time? Man was thrown out of the garden then. (But it was after he was given good and bad news, like promises and curses, right?)
Also - when God set man up in the garden and the fall that came after is that like an example of why God started making covenants maybe?




ps:
My apologies to Dr Fruchtenbaum

intojoy
March 2nd, 2014, 06:23 PM
Please excuse me, excuse me, excuse me. I do not want to be a stir-er up of confusion. I just like to challenge your mind the way you challenge mine. But somehow I fear I can be trouble because I 'm female - somehow I may have the power of persuasion... I'm sorry for that - do not be easily moved.

Ready?

Where is the blood?

With a pact known as a covenant shouldn't there be a number of things present?
Like a blood sacrifice?

AS an example I offer Noah and God's covenant with him and all living things.
Noah sacrificed and God gave the covenant and then a sign of the covenant, yes? Or no?

Same with Abraham - there is sacrifice (blood) at that time too.

And do you count the covenant that started with Abraham
but got more and more whatever you want to call it, complex, difficult, and hard - then do you call this covenant as plurals? When it is same Two Participants - God and Abe and his offspring?

But as for Adam. God did kill an animal and made skins to cover man - but was man given a covenant at that time? Man was thrown out of the garden then. (But it was after he was given good and bad news, like promises and curses, right?)
Also - when God set man up in the garden and the fall that came after is that like an example of why God started making covenants maybe?




ps:
My apologies to Dr Fruchtenbaum


http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96035

rainee
March 3rd, 2014, 08:37 AM
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96035


Thank you for showing me the thread, Intojoy.

I am a bit embarrassed...

Here is the deal: Some women are argumentative. In fact some women are so argumentative they are down right contentious. I think Solomon might feel very sorry for you if you were in the presence of one of those.

And here on the internet how can you tell ?

So maybe in the future you could be on the safe side and just answer either "Yes" (not "yes dear", which is for wives only) or, "Hmm,
food for thought, thanks."
Especially after a female tries to give a sisterly help in a humble way.

But instead you send me away to see something about men and their wedding rings?

Now then you can think about that while I put together my comparison of Adam and Noah...

Oh and the moment you wrote Noah represented you and other men - you should've known something was wrong, imho.

Doormat
March 3rd, 2014, 09:45 AM
But to be saved by grace, believe me, I have no convincing evidence to prove it as a fact.

David was saved by grace. He was not executed as he should have been according to the law.

Lazy afternoon
March 3rd, 2014, 03:47 PM
David was saved by grace. He was not executed as he should have been according to the law.

Yet he was.

David was an example of a Christian in that he had received something of God's Spirit before the time.

Most important to recognize when reading of David.


Mat 12:1 At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat.
Mat 12:2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.
Mat 12:3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;
Mat 12:4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?
Mat 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
Mat 12:6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
Mat 12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

LA

intojoy
December 19th, 2014, 08:39 PM
Because dispensational delusion got dishonorably discharged

patrick jane
December 19th, 2014, 08:54 PM
Because dispensational delusion got dishonorably discharged

did you forget to take your meds again ?:dog:

i was so funny back then. now I have to take meds !!!!!

patrick jane
December 19th, 2014, 08:59 PM
Please excuse me, excuse me, excuse me. I do not want to be a stir-er up of confusion. I just like to challenge your mind the way you challenge mine. But somehow I fear I can be trouble because I 'm female - somehow I may have the power of persuasion... I'm sorry for that - do not be easily moved.

Ready?

Where is the blood?

With a pact known as a covenant shouldn't there be a number of things present?
Like a blood sacrifice?

AS an example I offer Noah and God's covenant with him and all living things.
Noah sacrificed and God gave the covenant and then a sign of the covenant, yes? Or no?

Same with Abraham - there is sacrifice (blood) at that time too.

And do you count the covenant that started with Abraham
but got more and more whatever you want to call it, complex, difficult, and hard - then do you call this covenant as plurals? When it is same Two Participants - God and Abe and his offspring?

But as for Adam. God did kill an animal and made skins to cover man - but was man given a covenant at that time? Man was thrown out of the garden then. (But it was after he was given good and bad news, like promises and curses, right?)
Also - when God set man up in the garden and the fall that came after is that like an example of why God started making covenants maybe?




ps:
My apologies to Dr Fruchtenbaum


God help you

Nang
December 19th, 2014, 09:50 PM
Because dispensational delusion got dishonorably discharged

My "Dispensational Delusion" thread was rudely interrupted and corrupted by an enemy of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, by the poster, John W., who is designated by the inner circle of TOL TO DISTRACT threads that present the true Gospel of Grace, with his ungodly nonsense.

Rather than letting him potentially harm "little ones" who might be reading to find God'sTruth, by his constant references to drug use, and by every other distraction he could think of to deflect young minds from considering biblical discussion, I closed my thread against his presence.

Nang

intojoy
December 19th, 2014, 09:52 PM
Yes he is wrong to be angry
But I wanted to ask more on the Cov of works.

intojoy
December 19th, 2014, 09:55 PM
as are you. did you forget to take your meds again ?:dog:

It's lonely at the top washer Jane.

intojoy
September 2nd, 2015, 02:35 AM
There is a misguided idea out there that God has two Covenants, one being the Law and the other being the imaginary Covenant of Grace found nowhere in scripture. Lol

I have a problem with this. Because this 2 covenant theory implies that God saved people by works in one part of the history of mankind and now God saves people by grace.

God has only saved anyone who has ever been saved by grace alone.

If this is not how the 2 covenant theory is supposed to be soteriologically understood then tell me what is meant by a covenant of law and a covenant of grace (that is found nowhere in scripture).

The bible doesn't need to spell out a covenant of grace because grace has always been the method of salvation.

See Avatar

@brian j

intojoy
September 2nd, 2015, 02:44 AM
There are 8 Covenants in the Bible

way 2 go
September 2nd, 2015, 07:10 PM
David was saved by grace. He was not executed as he should have been according to the law.

David was given grace in that instance of adultery and murder

you can add grace to a covenant of law

but you can't add law to a covenant of grace

Wick Stick
September 2nd, 2015, 09:22 PM
There are 8 Covenants in the Bible
Ok, I'll buy that. But they aren't all for "salvation," even as nebulous as that word is.

For instance, the promise of Abram's covenant was for an heir, descendants, and posterity.

The promise of the Mosaic covenant was a tract of land in the Middle East, prosperous farming, and military assistance against the neighboring countries.

Now, I'd love to own a hectare or so of real estate in the Mediterranean, but that isn't exactly my eternal soul, is it?

Jarrod

intojoy
September 3rd, 2015, 03:49 AM
[QUOTE=Wick Stick;4436865]Ok, I'll buy that. But they aren't all for "salvation," even as nebulous as that word is.

For instance, the promise of Abram's covenant was for an heir, descendants, and posterity.

The promise of the Mosaic covenant was a tract of land in the Middle East, prosperous farming, and military assistance against the neighboring countries.

Now, I'd love to own a hectare or so of real estate in the Mediterranean, but that isn't exactly my eternal soul, is it?

Jarrod

The content of faith changed. But salvation was thru faith by grace in that which was revealed up to that time. Abe = a son
Moses = blood sacrifice covered sins etc

Totton Linnet
September 3rd, 2015, 05:37 AM
The idea of the law was to so magnify sin that the people in being unable to perform the requirements of it would be thrown on to God's mercy [Grace]

Wick Stick
September 3rd, 2015, 07:32 PM
Moses = blood sacrifice covered sins etc
No. You have the terms of the covenant confused with the role of the priesthood who mediates it.

The covenant demands obedience to the 600 or so commandments, and contains terms of blessing and cursing, as articulated from Mount Ebal and Mount Gerizim, respectively. See Deuteronomy 11:29. The blessings primarily deal with the granting of the land, continued rainfall, and prosperity in general. The cursings are roughly the opposite - invasion, famine, diaspora, and death.

The Levitical priesthood was installed as a mediator of that covenant. Without a mediator, every individual who violated the terms (aka everyone) would have to be stoned to death, or expelled from the nation (depending on the violation).

The mediation of the priest allowed for the possibility of a substitution on the penalties. The sin/transgression was laid on animals, who then were killed or expelled into the wilderness.

Hence, the book of Hebrews has it as "better covenant," "better mediator," and "better High Priest."

Jarrod

Ask Mr. Religion
September 4th, 2015, 01:47 AM
There is a misguided idea out there that God has two Covenants, one being the Law and the other being the imaginary Covenant of Grace found nowhere in scripture.

You need to dig a wee bit deeper.

http://rscottclark.org/2012/09/theses-on-covenant-theology/

AMR

Ben Masada
September 4th, 2015, 03:55 AM
The idea of the law was to so magnify sin that the people in being unable to perform the requirements of it would be thrown on to God's mercy [Grace]

The only things that magnify sins are crimes; and the reason is for sinners to find out that they have broken the Law.

intojoy
September 18th, 2015, 07:01 PM
There is no verse that contains a covenant of grace is there?

way 2 go
September 18th, 2015, 08:13 PM
.

For instance, the promise of Abram's covenant was for an heir, descendants, and posterity.

The promise of the Mosaic covenant was a tract of land in the Middle East, prosperous farming, and military assistance against the neighboring countries.

Now, I'd love to own a hectare or so of real estate in the Mediterranean, but that isn't exactly my eternal soul, is it?

Jarrod

The content of faith changed. But salvation was thru faith by grace in that which was revealed up to that time. Abe = a son
Moses = blood sacrifice covered sins etc

covenant with works

Gen 17:5 No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham, for I have made you the father of a multitude of nations.
Gen 17:6 I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make you into nations, and kings shall come from you.
Gen 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your offspring after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you.

bloodshed and covenant confirmed each time the
work of circumcision is done.

Gen 17:10 This is my covenant, which you shall keep, between me and you and your offspring after you: Every male among you shall be circumcised.

way 2 go
September 18th, 2015, 08:17 PM
There is no verse that contains a covenant of grace is there?

no covenant of grace
but a dispensation of grace

Eph_3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

Angel4Truth
September 18th, 2015, 08:17 PM
Hebrews 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, He makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Hebrews 10:16 "This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds."
17 Then He adds: "Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more."
18 Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin.

Luke 22:20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.

2 Corinthians 3:6 Who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

intojoy
September 18th, 2015, 09:35 PM
Hebrews 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, He makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Hebrews 10:16 "This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds."
17 Then He adds: "Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more."
18 Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin.

Luke 22:20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.

2 Corinthians 3:6 Who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Sure. That's the Mosaic C

But Hebrews says that that C was added to the A C and did not change nor do away with the Abrahamic C, it was added and it was temporal.

The other conditional C was the Edenic C.

The New C is made with Israel for Israel and we have been made partakers.

Surely the Mosaic C was not a way of salvation. Not a way to work for salvation.

patrick jane
September 18th, 2015, 09:38 PM
Sure. That's the Mosaic C

But Hebrews says that that C was added to the A C and did not change nor do away with the Abrahamic C, it was added and it was temporal.

The other conditional C was the Edenic C.

The New C is made with Israel for Israel and we have been made partakers.

Surely the Mosaic C was not a way of salvation. Not a way to work for salvation.


ur imaginary

intojoy
September 18th, 2015, 09:41 PM
Ah Patty me wee litl fella.

way 2 go
September 19th, 2015, 01:21 PM
I have a problem with this. Because this 2 covenant theory implies that God saved people by works in one part of the history of mankind and now God saves people by grace.

God has only saved anyone who has ever been saved by grace alone.


King Saul saved not saved ?

1Sa 16:14 Now the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and a harmful spirit from the LORD tormented him.

1Sa 28:16 And Samuel said, "Why then do you ask me, since the LORD has turned from you and become your enemy?

Angel4Truth
September 19th, 2015, 01:42 PM
Sure. That's the Mosaic C

But Hebrews says that that C was added to the A C and did not change nor do away with the Abrahamic C, it was added and it was temporal.

The other conditional C was the Edenic C.

The New C is made with Israel for Israel and we have been made partakers.

Surely the Mosaic C was not a way of salvation. Not a way to work for salvation.

2 Corinthians 3:6 Who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

2 Corinthians was written to the church.

Danoh
September 19th, 2015, 01:54 PM
Sure. That's the Mosaic C

But Hebrews says that that C was added to the A C and did not change nor do away with the Abrahamic C, it was added and it was temporal.

The other conditional C was the Edenic C.

The New C is made with Israel for Israel and we have been made partakers.

Surely the Mosaic C was not a way of salvation. Not a way to work for salvation.

Nothing a shot of Vitamin B "12 Out" can't cure, lol

intojoy
October 31st, 2015, 08:51 PM
There is a misguided idea out there that God has two Covenants, one being the Law and the other being the imaginary Covenant of Grace found nowhere in scripture. Lol

I have a problem with this. Because this 2 covenant theory implies that God saved people by works in one part of the history of mankind and now God saves people by grace.

God has only saved anyone who has ever been saved by grace alone.

If this is not how the 2 covenant theory is supposed to be soteriologically understood then tell me what is meant by a covenant of law and a covenant of grace (that is found nowhere in scripture).

The bible doesn't need to spell out a covenant of grace because grace has always been the method of salvation.

See Avatar

Amen

musterion
November 1st, 2015, 07:35 AM
God has no covenant with Gentiles or Jews during this dispensation of grace.

jamie
November 1st, 2015, 08:35 AM
God has no covenant with Gentiles or Jews during this dispensation of grace.


It's known as the Abrahamic covenant.


And the Scripture foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”

So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. (Galatians 3:8-9 NKJV)

The Abrahamic covenant is a covenant of faith not works.


But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident for “the just shall live by faith.” (Galatians 3:11 NKJV)

...that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. (Galatians 3:14 NKJV)

musterion
November 1st, 2015, 08:47 AM
The covenant was made with Abraham, not us.

jamie
November 1st, 2015, 08:52 AM
The covenant was made with Abraham, not us.



Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. (Galatians 3:7 NKJV)

musterion
November 1st, 2015, 09:39 AM
Receiving blessings from a covenant that God made with another ≠ Him making that covenant WITH YOU.

A covenant has a condition, somewhere, that one or both parties agree to meet. Grace has no conditions. We all are under grace. No covenant was made during this dispensation of grace with Gentiles or Jews.

beloved57
November 1st, 2015, 12:00 PM
Receiving blessings from a covenant that God made with another ≠ Him making that covenant WITH YOU.

A covenant has a condition, somewhere, that one or both parties agree to meet. Grace has no conditions. We all are under grace. No covenant was made during this dispensation of grace with Gentiles or Jews.

In my Faith Christ fulfilled the conditions of the Everlasting Covenant, that is why He's called the Surety of it Hebrew 7:22 !

Dialogos
November 1st, 2015, 12:06 PM
As a TULIP subscriber, I have no objection to your post.

As another 5 pointer, I don't either.

I do think that the New Covenant is the fulfillment of God's gracious redemptive purposes, and I also think that no one will be justified before God by the law.

musterion
November 1st, 2015, 12:49 PM
In my Faith

You don't have or need any faith. God believed in Christ for you.

intojoy
November 1st, 2015, 12:52 PM
There are 8 covenants found in the scriptures.
1. Edenic -temporal conditional
2. Adamic - unconditional
3. Noahic - unconditional
4. Abrahamic - unconditional
5. Land - unconditional
6. Mosaic - temporal conditional
7. Davidic - unconditiona
8. New - unconditional

5 of 8 made with Israel. Gentiles were alienated from the covenants

musterion
November 1st, 2015, 01:09 PM
...and I also think that no one will be justified before God by the law.

Does sin in the life of believers of the Gospel of grace disqualify them from being saved, as Paul Washer and others claim?

beloved57
November 1st, 2015, 01:14 PM
You don't have or need any faith. God believed in Christ for you.

Invalid comment!

musterion
November 1st, 2015, 01:16 PM
How do you know you are Beloved when you can't know you're Elect? You may turn out to be an unloved Reprobate for all you know. Isn't it presumptive to call yourself Beloved?

beloved57
November 1st, 2015, 01:19 PM
How do you know you are Beloved when you can't know you're Elect? You may turn out to be an unloved Reprobate for all you know. Isn't it presumptive to call yourself Beloved?

Rabbit Trail question!

Totton Linnet
November 1st, 2015, 01:20 PM
There are 8 covenants found in the scriptures.
1. Edenic -temporal conditional
2. Adamic - unconditional
3. Noahic - unconditional
4. Abrahamic - unconditional
5. Land - unconditional
6. Mosaic - temporal conditional
7. Davidic - unconditiona
8. New - unconditional

5 of 8 made with Israel. Gentiles were alienated from the covenants

Many are still ignorant [and therefore not receiving the benefits] of the covenants of promises made to the Jews to which we Gentiles are made co-heirs....the Amills break off with the Joos and therefore disregard the promises made to them as merely temporal.

The gospel is the prophetic message of the coming Mill, the 1,000 year reign, the kingdom of heaven....the perfect earth...hence the gospel of the kingdom will produce miracles as signs.

The MADianites go the opposite direction and cut off the Joos until the future, this also risks forfeiting the promises made to the Joos.

...But God is gracious and blesses if'n at all possible.

Totton Linnet
November 1st, 2015, 01:23 PM
...all conditional upon faith, you have to BELIEVE in God's promise....faith is imparted to us as a free gift of God's grace [mercy].

intojoy
November 1st, 2015, 01:24 PM
Many are still ignorant [and therefore not receiving the benefits] of the covenants of promises made to the Jews to which we Gentiles are made co-heirs....the Amills break off with the Joos and therefore disregard the promises made to them as merely temporal.

The gospel is the prophetic message of the coming Mill, the 1,000 year reign, the kingdom of heaven....the perfect earth...hence the gospel of the kingdom will produce miracles as signs.

The MADianites go the opposite direction and cut off the Joos until the future, this also risks forfeiting the promises made to the Joos.

...But God is gracious and blesses if'n at all possible.

Fact check this for me, what amount of scripture do we read about miracles being performed and how many years does it cover?

Maybe 5 years total?

Totton Linnet
November 1st, 2015, 01:31 PM
Fact check this for me, what amount of scripture do we read about miracles being performed and how many years does it cover?

Maybe 5 years total?

Try at least 4,000 years openly and the best part of 2,000 hiddenly.

God's miracles start with God saying "Let there be light" they abound toward the Patriarchs, through the judges and prophets, through the gospels and post gospel ....until the Catholic usurpation, from whence God still worked miracles but not openly...how can God authenticate a lie? how could He bless the idolatry of the Eucharist?

God is the God of miracles from start to finish. Miracles are His hallmark....Jesus said "if I had not done the works among them which no man can do they would have no sin"

Jesus said "if you don't believe My word believe in the miracles that I do in the Father's name"

Jesus said "if the miracles done in North America had been done in Sodom it would have remained to this day"

Paul said "I come not in wisdom of man's word but in POWER And DEMONSTRATION of the Holy Spirit. that your faith might not stand in man's word but in the power of God"

beloved57
November 1st, 2015, 01:31 PM
...all conditional upon faith, you have to BELIEVE in God's promise....faith is imparted to us as a free gift of God's grace [mercy].

False teaching, Those Christ lived and died for are reconciled, made right with God while they are enemies and faithless!

Totton Linnet
November 1st, 2015, 01:43 PM
False teaching, Those Christ lived and died for are reconciled, made right with God while they are enemies and faithless!

God imparts faith with the gospel...if you have not received this impartation thou art yet dead in thy sins.

intojoy
November 1st, 2015, 01:54 PM
Try at least 4,000 years openly and the best part of 2,000 hiddenly.

God's miracles start with God saying "Let there be light" they abound toward the Patriarchs, through the judges and prophets, through the gospels and post gospel ....until the Catholic usurpation, from whence God still worked miracles but not openly...how can God authenticate a lie? how could He bless the idolatry of the Eucharist?

God is the God of miracles from start to finish. Miracles are His hallmark....Jesus said "if I had not done the works among them which no man can do they would have no sin"

Jesus said "if you don't believe My word believe in the miracles that I do in the Father's name"

Jesus said "if the miracles done in North America had been done in Sodom it would have remained to this day"

Paul said "I come not in wisdom of man's word but in POWER And DEMONSTRATION of the Holy Spirit. that your faith might not stand in man's word but in the power of God"

Not quite my little one. I'm talking about miracles performed by men of God. Elijah has 10. I think. Not hundreds or thousands. 10.

Go figure.

The apostles had what? 20 - 40 years of ministry?

You are not answering me but are speculating and go beyond what is written.

Even if miracles are now in full force (I don't believe they are) you still have to concede my argument of a very low amount of time in mans 6000 years to which scripture records men performing miracles. If you disagree with the observation prove it with scripture.

No charge for this

Totton Linnet
November 1st, 2015, 02:14 PM
Not quite my little one. I'm talking about miracles performed by men of God. Elijah has 10. I think. Not hundreds or thousands. 10.

Go figure.

The apostles had what? 20 - 40 years of ministry?

You are not answering me but are speculating and go beyond what is written.

Even if miracles are now in full force (I don't believe they are) you still have to concede my argument of a very low amount of time in mans 6000 years to which scripture records men performing miracles. If you disagree with the observation prove it with scripture.

No charge for this

This is why you do not receive miracles.....throw those levers forward, go into believe mode.

This is YOUR time

Everything God does is a miracle. I never cease to marvel at the miracle of eyesight....when I see sickness, poverty, every form of oppression I know I am looking at a withdrawing of God's miraculous power .

What we have today in the west is the direct result of gospel truths discovered and implemented by past generation....truths founded upon miracles

Christ's birth
His death
His resurrection.
His continuing life.

You can have as much of the power of these astounding miracles as you need, as much as you can believe for.

To meet YOUR needs today.

Totton Linnet
November 1st, 2015, 02:17 PM
....uh you have to look up, not down like Peter who began to sink in the waves

not around like David who counted his resources and lost them in the plague

but LOOK UP, LOOK UP. If you can see it you can have it.

beloved57
November 1st, 2015, 03:32 PM
God imparts faith with the gospel...if you have not received this impartation thou art yet dead in thy sins.

Those Christ died for are reconciled to God by Christ death while they are enemies Rom 5:10! No Faith needed!

intojoy
November 1st, 2015, 03:38 PM
This is why you do not receive miracles.....throw those levers forward, go into believe mode.

This is YOUR time

Everything God does is a miracle. I never cease to marvel at the miracle of eyesight....when I see sickness, poverty, every form of oppression I know I am looking at a withdrawing of God's miraculous power .

What we have today in the west is the direct result of gospel truths discovered and implemented by past generation....truths founded upon miracles

Christ's birth
His death
His resurrection.
His continuing life.

You can have as much of the power of these astounding miracles as you need, as much as you can believe for.

To meet YOUR needs today.

Ah yes I forgot

Book of first balonyens
Thx!

intojoy
November 1st, 2015, 03:40 PM
....uh you have to look up, not down like Peter who began to sink in the waves

not around like David who counted his resources and lost them in the plague

but LOOK UP, LOOK UP. If you can see it you can have it.

My power is to use the Spiritual gifts I have. I haven't been given the sign gifts.

Totton Linnet
November 2nd, 2015, 03:33 PM
Those Christ died for are reconciled to God by Christ death while they are enemies Rom 5:10! No Faith needed!

By grace alone THROUGH FAITH....deal with it.

Totton Linnet
November 2nd, 2015, 03:35 PM
My power is to use the Spiritual gifts I have. I haven't been given the sign gifts.

As long as you don't start bleating about your lack....

Ben Masada
November 2nd, 2015, 03:45 PM
...all conditional upon faith, you have to BELIEVE in God's promise....faith is imparted to us as a free gift of God's grace [mercy].

Faith without the works of the Law is as good as a body without the breath of life. DEAD if you know what I mean. (James 2:26) Hence, faith can never be a free gift, since you have to pay with obedience of the Law to prove you are faithful. That's the point with Abraham who was justified only after he proved his faith with obedience. (James 2:21)

Dialogos
November 2nd, 2015, 03:49 PM
Does sin in the life of believers of the Gospel of grace disqualify them from being saved, as Paul Washer and others claim?

It couldn't possibly.

1 John 1:8 makes it clear that those who claim to be without sin are lying.

Incidentally I don't think Paul Washer claims this.

Ben Masada
November 2nd, 2015, 03:58 PM
There are 8 covenants found in the scriptures.
1. Edenic -temporal conditional
2. Adamic - unconditional
3. Noahic - unconditional
4. Abrahamic - unconditional
5. Land - unconditional
6. Mosaic - temporal conditional
7. Davidic - unconditiona
8. New - unconditional

5 of 8 made with Israel. Gentiles were alienated from the covenants

ALL Covenants are by nature conditional. Whether they are between HaShem and us or between two nations or between ourselves. Pay attention when you read about a Covenant in the Tanach. You will notice "if" once or more than several times. "If" is the token that identifies the conditions of the Covenants. A Covenant cannot be unconditional because we have been granted with the attribute of Freewill which is respected even by HaShem Himself, except in the case of "Pichuach Nephesh" which was used between Moses and Pharaoh.

Ask Mr. Religion
November 2nd, 2015, 04:01 PM
There is a misguided idea out there that God has two Covenants, one being the Law and the other being the imaginary Covenant of Grace found nowhere in scripture. Lol

I have a problem with this. Because this 2 covenant theory implies that God saved people by works in one part of the history of mankind and now God saves people by grace.
I suppose you do not recognize that the CoW applied only in the Garden in Eden? What were the stipulations given to Adam? Hint: "Do this and live." :AMR:

AMR

Ben Masada
November 2nd, 2015, 04:10 PM
Receiving blessings from a covenant that God made with another ≠ Him making that covenant WITH YOU.

A covenant has a condition, somewhere, that one or both parties agree to meet. Grace has no conditions. We all are under grace. No covenant was made during this dispensation of grace with Gentiles or Jews.

When you say that we are all under grace, it is absolutely no different from saying "we are all under the Law." The Law was given as a result of God's grace. Had He not used his benevolent grace to give us the Law, we would not have evolved to be a nation of order and progress but still living under the law of the jungle. By giving us His Law He is simply testing our attribute of Freewill and elevating us into the level of human beings with intellectual power.

Angel4Truth
November 2nd, 2015, 04:14 PM
When you say that we are all under grace, it is absolutely no different from saying "we are all under the Law." The Law was given as a result of God's grace. Had He not used his benevolent grace to give us the Law, we would not have evolved to be a nation of order and progress but still living under the law of the jungle. By giving us His Law He is simply testing our attribute of Freewill and elevating us into the level of human beings with intellectual power.

By giving us the law, He is showing us how far apart our righteousness is from His.

Ben Masada
November 2nd, 2015, 04:19 PM
By giving us the law, He is showing us how far apart our righteousness is from His.

You can say that again! Anyway, to be as righteous as righteous is the Lord, it is for humans a process of a lifetime. That's what life is all about: The struggle for perfection. "Be perfect as perfect is the Lord."

Angel4Truth
November 2nd, 2015, 04:21 PM
You can say that again! Anyway, to be as righteous as righteous is the Lord, it is for humans a process of a lifetime. That's what life is all about: The struggle for perfection. "Be perfect as perfect is the Lord."

Perfect means complete. We can only be complete in Christ, because we are separated from God.

glorydaz
November 2nd, 2015, 04:26 PM
You can say that again! Anyway, to be as righteous as righteous is the Lord, it is for humans a process of a lifetime. That's what life is all about: The struggle for perfection. "Be perfect as perfect is the Lord."

Even a lifetime of struggle would not accomplish that.

Angel4Truth
November 2nd, 2015, 04:29 PM
Even a lifetime of struggle would not accomplish that.

:thumb: Even one sin separates us from God. This is why we need a Savior.

beloved57
November 2nd, 2015, 05:21 PM
By grace alone THROUGH FAITH....deal with it.

Those Christ died for are reconciled to God while they are enemies and unbelievers Rom 5:10 deal with that!

Bright Raven
November 2nd, 2015, 05:30 PM
Those Christ died for are reconciled to God while they are enemies and unbelievers Rom 5:10 deal with that!

Deal with this heathen;

Romans 3:22 New Living Translation (NLT)

22 We are made right with God by placing our faith in Jesus Christ. And this is true for everyone who believes, no matter who we are.

Zeke
November 2nd, 2015, 05:46 PM
Deal with this heathen;

Romans 3:22 New Living Translation (NLT)

22 We are made right with God by placing our faith in Jesus Christ. And this is true for everyone who believes, no matter who we are.

Yet not one seeks after God Romans 3:11, so the faith required to be in the new born state from above Galatians 4:28, wouldn't come from the mind of the first born Galatians 4:24 who is focused outwardly on this worlds kingdom and laws he is born into walking by sight, always needing a outward sign from the God of the letter which killeth 2Cor 3:6.

Ktoyou
November 2nd, 2015, 05:50 PM
There is a misguided idea out there that God has two Covenants, one being the Law and the other being the imaginary Covenant of Grace found nowhere in scripture. Lol



Why would you laugh about it unless your intent is to mock believers. :confused:

intojoy
November 2nd, 2015, 09:24 PM
Why would you laugh about it unless your intent is to mock believers. :confused:

Welcome friend, read and learn. Hehe

intojoy
November 2nd, 2015, 09:26 PM
You can say that again! Anyway, to be as righteous as righteous is the Lord, it is for humans a process of a lifetime. That's what life is all about: The struggle for perfection. "Be perfect as perfect is the Lord."

The law was Not given to Gentiles. I'm surprised you don't correct her on that

intojoy
November 2nd, 2015, 09:31 PM
I suppose you do not recognize that the CoW applied only in the Garden in Eden? What were the stipulations given to Adam? Hint: "Do this and live." :AMR:

AMR

Cow is that covenant of works?

Adam did not seek God but hid himself. Adam disobeyed a command of God but that command was nothing to do about his salvation. The penalty was spiritual death brining physical death. However Adam was regenerated by God and became born again after God found him in the garden and clothed him

Ben Masada
November 3rd, 2015, 03:58 PM
Perfect means complete. We can only be complete in Christ, because we are separated from God.

The only way to fix your connection with HaShem is the obedience to His Law. Prophet Isaiah said that if we want to set things right with the Lord so that our sins from scarlet red become as white as snow, all we have to do is to repent and return to the obedience of God's Law. If you read the largest chapter in the Bible which is Psalm 119, you will understand what I mean. (Isa. 1:18,19)

Ben Masada
November 3rd, 2015, 04:06 PM
Even a lifetime of struggle would not accomplish that.

That's true according to Eccles. 7:20 because there is no one upon earth to have done only good and never sinned. But, what can we do? Only the living can struggle to be perfect. Once dead, that struggle ceases to be a command.

Angel4Truth
November 3rd, 2015, 04:10 PM
Galatians 3: 10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.”

11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.”
12 But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.”
13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”—
14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.

The Law and the Promise

15 To give a human example, brothers: even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. 16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ.

17 This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. 18 For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.

19 Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary.
20 Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.

21 Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law.
22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed.
24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.

25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,
26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.
27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slavenor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.

Ben Masada
November 3rd, 2015, 04:11 PM
The law was Not given to Gentiles. I'm surprised you don't correct her on that

Except for the Shabbat, all the other nine laws of the Decalogue are in force upon the Gentiles too. Break them and you will suffer the consequences thereof.

Ben Masada
November 3rd, 2015, 04:19 PM
Galatians 3: 10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.”

.

Are you implying that Jesus was all his life under a curse? The whole second part of the Decalogue is about the Golden Rule which Jesus, according to Mat. 23:13-33 broke it 15 times when he cursed the Pharisees with being hypocrites and broods of vipers. The Golden Rule states not to do unto others what one would not like they did unto ourselves. Would have Jesus liked to be addressed to as a hypocrite and brood of vipers? I don't think so. The Pharisees didn't either. So, we can see that Jesus did not abide by all things written in the book of the Law.

Angel4Truth
November 3rd, 2015, 04:25 PM
Are you implying that Jesus was all his life under a curse?

Nope, where did you get that? He took our sins upon Himself at the cross.

Ask Mr. Religion
November 3rd, 2015, 06:20 PM
Cow is that covenant of works?

Adam did not seek God but hid himself. Adam disobeyed a command of God but that command was nothing to do about his salvation. The penalty was spiritual death brining physical death. However Adam was regenerated by God and became born again after God found him in the garden and clothed himWhat exactly would have happened if Adam had obeyed the commands of God?

Do you deny Adam was the Federal Head of all his progeny?

AMR

intojoy
November 3rd, 2015, 08:26 PM
Except for the Shabbat, all the other nine laws of the Decalogue are in force upon the Gentiles too. Break them and you will suffer the consequences thereof.

You cannot prove that with scripture. The opposite is true and verifiable that the 613 laws (not just ten) were not given to the nations but to Israel alone!

intojoy
November 3rd, 2015, 08:27 PM
What exactly would have happened if Adam had obeyed the commands of God?

Do you deny Adam was the Federal Head of all his progeny?

AMR

He would not have died.
Can you answer my question?

Does CoW stand for covenant of works?

This would be new info for me.

Ask Mr. Religion
November 4th, 2015, 01:34 PM
He would not have died.
Can you answer my question?

Does CoW stand for covenant of works?

This would be new info for me.CoW is covenant of works, sometimes also called the covenant of life. CoG, sometimes called the covenant of redemption, is a covenant of grace, a pre-temporal covenantal in which the Father would glorify his Son by sending him as a Mediator of foreseen sin. Salvation has been God’s plan from the beginning and the covenantal nature of it—sovereignly initiated—guarantees its accomplishment. It is the basis on which Paul can argue from foreknowledge to glorification in Romans 8:29-31.

There are but two and only two covenants within the redemptive plans of God. Other covenants, e.g., Abraham, are but various administrations of the CoG.

Indeed Adam would not have died. God promised to prolong and augment the relationship, provided Adam observed one prohibition. Had Adam obeyed, all his progeny would have lived in eternal blessedness with God. The Covenant of Works was promising confirmation of a probationary relationship, provided Adam complied with covenant stipulation. Though the word “covenant” (Berith) does not occur in Genesis 3, the use of the expression “I will cause-to-stand my covenant with you” in Genesis 6:18 clearly teaches that a prior covenant is in view.

The Fall was a rejection of the eschatological.

Adam was created for something beyond himself and beyond his "now." The trees of the Knowledge and Life were reminders to him of a telos—a life lived wholly for the glory of God. Inherent within Covenant of Works/Life was the idea of probation and consequent confirmation. Adam "exchanged the truth about God for a lie" (Rom. 1:25).

Adam clearly failed to obey. But God in His mercy established the CoG in the stead of the CoW. The CoG is a redemptive covenant, revealed in embryonic form immediately after the fall (Genesis 3:15), but more clearly with Abraham, made a nation from his descendants, delivered them from slavery, gave them his name, taught them the family code (law), disciplined them when they failed, sent messengers to teach them, painted pictures of the covenant Mediator in sacrificial liturgical system, specific prophecies, and a host of emblematic pictures (e.g. King, prophet, priest, sufferer).

In one sense the CoW was never abolished per se, in that it fell to Our Lord's perfect active and passive obedience to perform the CoW. The CoG is for God's children who are made able to claim what He did for us (Hebrews 7:22;8:6). Our Lord lived the life we all should have lived and it is by grace that we are now saved. Christ is viewed as the Mediator of the Covenant—fulfilling the Covenant of Works as “Last Adam / Second Man.”



“Only when the believer understands how he has to receive and has received everything from the Mediator and how God in no way whatever deals with him except through Christ, only then does a picture of the glorious work that God wrought through Christ emerge in his consciousness and the magnificent idea of grace begin to dominate and form in his life. For the Reformed, therefore, the entire ordo salutis [order of salvation], beginning with regeneration as its first stage, is bound to the mystical union with Christ. There is no gift that has not been earned by him. Neither is there a gift that is not bestowed by him and that does not elevate God’s glory through his bestowal. Now the basis for this order lies in none other than in the covenant of salvation with Christ. In this covenant those chosen by the Father are given to Christ. In it he became the guarantor so that they would be planted into his body in the thought-world of grace through faith. As the application of salvation by Christ and by Christ’s initiative is a fundamental principle of Reformed theology, this theology has correctly viewed this application as a covenantal requirement which fell to the Mediator and for the fulfilling of which he became the guarantor.” (Src: Geerhardus Vos, Redemptive History and Biblical Interpretation, ed. Richard B. Gaffin, Philadelphia: Presbyterian and Reformed, 1980, 248)


AMR

intojoy
November 4th, 2015, 08:28 PM
Can you define what the CoW is specific to salvation?
Thanks!

Ask Mr. Religion
November 5th, 2015, 02:15 AM
Can you define what the CoW is specific to salvation?
Thanks!

I am not sure I understand you clearly. If you are asking how Adam was saved under the CoW, the answer is: obedience while under probation.

AMR

dialm
November 5th, 2015, 03:14 AM
The covenant of works was false from the beginning. There has never been a time when it has worked. Even the Angels cannot stand before God by their own righteousness.

intojoy
November 5th, 2015, 05:22 AM
That was easy. Covenant of Works = salvation by works.

intojoy
November 5th, 2015, 05:23 AM
I am not sure I understand you clearly. If you are asking how Adam was saved under the CoW, the answer is: obedience while under probation.

AMR

In what way did Adam obey unto salvation? Because he hid himself rather than obeyed God's voice.

beloved57
November 5th, 2015, 11:22 AM
In what way did Adam obey unto salvation? Because he hid himself rather than obeyed God's voice.

Adam was Saved like everyone else who is saved, by the obedience of one, Christ Rom 5:19 ! Man has never been saved by his own obedience!

Hawkins
November 5th, 2015, 11:57 AM
There is a misguided idea out there that God has two Covenants, one being the Law and the other being the imaginary Covenant of Grace found nowhere in scripture. Lol

I have a problem with this. Because this 2 covenant theory implies that God saved people by works in one part of the history of mankind and now God saves people by grace.

God has only saved anyone who has ever been saved by grace alone.

If this is not how the 2 covenant theory is supposed to be soteriologically understood then tell me what is meant by a covenant of law and a covenant of grace (that is found nowhere in scripture).

The bible doesn't need to spell out a covenant of grace because grace has always been the method of salvation.

See Avatar

You get it wrong.

The OT basically says that if you abide by the Law to a standard set by God, you will be saved by His Grace.

The NT says that since you lost your capability in abiding any Law that you deliver your faith instead such that God will save you by His Grace.

Ask Mr. Religion
November 6th, 2015, 03:05 PM
That was easy. Covenant of Works = salvation by works.Covenant of Works = Covenant of Life

If you want to call it "salvation" you need to point to someone being lost in need of saving. Adam was created upright, and mutable, possessing the ability to sin or not to sin, having no sin in his nature. Thus Adam had to be turned from such to engage in sin, which the devil enticed him to do in eating the forbidden fruit. So before this sin of Adam there was nothing for him to be "saved" from, for he was not "lost". All he had to do was obey and live. Hence, Covenant of Life is a rightly used phrase for the Covenant of Works.

Suggest you do some studying:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006T4CZXQ

http://www.monergism.com/economy-covenants-between-god-and-man-ebook
{note: you may have to refresh web page if it does not come up immediately}

AMR

intojoy
November 6th, 2015, 08:32 PM
Covenant of Works = Covenant of Life

If you want to call it "salvation" you need to point to someone being lost in need of saving. Adam was created upright, and mutable, possessing the ability to sin or not to sin, having no sin in his nature. Thus Adam had to be turned from such to engage in sin, which the devil enticed him to do in eating the forbidden fruit. So before this sin of Adam there was nothing for him to be "saved" from, for he was not "lost". All he had to do was obey and live. Hence, Covenant of Life is a rightly used phrase for the Covenant of Works.

Suggest you do some studying:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006T4CZXQ

http://www.monergism.com/economy-covenants-between-god-and-man-ebook
{note: you may have to refresh web page if it does not come up immediately}

AMR

I'm not gonna study that. It's clear now thanks!

If I agreed with you we'd both be wrong

Ask Mr. Religion
November 6th, 2015, 10:48 PM
Then why waste time asking this or that if your agenda is but to hold to your own odd views? Is ther purpose of this thread but for you to talk to yourself? :idunno:

AMR

intojoy
November 7th, 2015, 12:18 AM
Then why waste time asking this or that if your agenda is but to hold to your own odd views? Is ther purpose of this thread but for you to talk to yourself? :idunno:

AMR

I didn't call it a waste of your time, you did.
I understand your view. It's wrong. But you can think that as you do. I'm not threatened by the error. I know that there are 8 covenants in scripture. Each with a set of commandments but none with a prerequisite of personal righteousness for salvation.

Adam believed God. There was no requirement in order for Adam to keep himself alive anymore than for us to keep ourselves saved by personal holiness. If we read what scripture says it is clear that God intervened in order to prevent Adam from eating of the tree of life.

intojoy
May 21st, 2016, 06:56 PM
I'm not gonna study that. It's clear now thanks!

If I agreed with you we'd both be wrong

Great line


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intojoy
May 26th, 2016, 08:25 PM
There is a misguided idea out there that God has two Covenants, one being the Law and the other being the imaginary Covenant of Grace found nowhere in scripture. Lol

I have a problem with this. Because this 2 covenant theory implies that God saved people by works in one part of the history of mankind and now God saves people by grace.

God has only saved anyone who has ever been saved by grace alone.

If this is not how the 2 covenant theory is supposed to be soteriologically understood then tell me what is meant by a covenant of law and a covenant of grace (that is found nowhere in scripture).

The bible doesn't need to spell out a covenant of grace because grace has always been the method of salvation.

See Avatar

This needs another looksy


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intojoy
June 2nd, 2016, 11:16 PM
There is a misguided idea out there that God has two Covenants, one being the Law and the other being the imaginary Covenant of Grace found nowhere in scripture. Lol

I have a problem with this. Because this 2 covenant theory implies that God saved people by works in one part of the history of mankind and now God saves people by grace.

God has only saved anyone who has ever been saved by grace alone.

If this is not how the 2 covenant theory is supposed to be soteriologically understood then tell me what is meant by a covenant of law and a covenant of grace (that is found nowhere in scripture).

The bible doesn't need to spell out a covenant of grace because grace has always been the method of salvation.

See Avatar

Bump


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way 2 go
June 4th, 2016, 04:31 PM
Quote Originally Posted by intojoy View Post
There is a misguided idea out there that God has two Covenants, one being the Law and the other being the imaginary Covenant of Grace found nowhere in scripture. Lol
2 covenants

Mat 26:28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

and

Gen 17:5 No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham, for I have made you the father of a multitude of nations.
Gen 17:6 I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make you into nations, and kings shall come from you.
Gen 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your offspring after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you.

bloodshed and covenant confirmed each time the
work of circumcision is done.

Gen 17:10 This is my covenant, which you shall keep, between me and you and your offspring after you: Every male among you shall be circumcised.





I have a problem with this. Because this 2 covenant theory implies that God saved people by works in one part of the history of mankind and now God saves people by grace.

circumcision was necessary
Moses once thought like you and didn't circumcise his son

Exo 4:24 At a lodging place on the way the LORD met him{Moses} and sought to put him to death.
Exo 4:25 Then Zipporah took a flint and cut off her son's foreskin and touched Moses' feet with it and said, "Surely you are a bridegroom of blood to me!"



God has only saved anyone who has ever been saved by grace alone.

always with grace but not by grace alone, till now, for now.

intojoy
December 15th, 2016, 04:11 PM
There is a misguided idea out there that God has two Covenants, one being the Law and the other being the imaginary Covenant of Grace found nowhere in scripture. Lol

I have a problem with this. Because this 2 covenant theory implies that God saved people by works in one part of the history of mankind and now God saves people by grace.

God has only saved anyone who has ever been saved by grace alone.

If this is not how the 2 covenant theory is supposed to be soteriologically understood then tell me what is meant by a covenant of law and a covenant of grace (that is found nowhere in scripture).

The bible doesn't need to spell out a covenant of grace because grace has always been the method of salvation.

See Avatar

Amensky

Jerry Shugart
December 15th, 2016, 06:35 PM
always with grace but not by grace alone, till now, for now.

Not by grace alone? The only thing that is compatible with salvation on the principle of "grace" is faith.

What else do you have in mind?

Jerry Shugart
December 15th, 2016, 06:47 PM
The OT basically says that if you abide by the Law to a standard set by God, you will be saved by His Grace.

What is that "standard" which is found in the OT?

I can't imagine since "grace" and "works" are mutually exclusive:


"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:4).


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph.2:8-9).

In the OT we read this about Abraham:


"And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness" (Gen.15:6).

Jerry Shugart
December 15th, 2016, 06:50 PM
The bible doesn't need to spell out a covenant of grace because grace has always been the method of salvation.

EXACTLY!

musterion
December 15th, 2016, 06:59 PM
Grace has always been God's method of salvation.

Is it correct to say that grace has always been His means of salvation?

intojoy
March 17th, 2017, 04:22 PM
There is a misguided idea out there that God has two Covenants, one being the Law and the other being the imaginary Covenant of Grace found nowhere in scripture. Lol

I have a problem with this. Because this 2 covenant theory implies that God saved people by works in one part of the history of mankind and now God saves people by grace.

God has only saved anyone who has ever been saved by grace alone.

If this is not how the 2 covenant theory is supposed to be soteriologically understood then tell me what is meant by a covenant of law and a covenant of grace (that is found nowhere in scripture).

The bible doesn't need to spell out a covenant of grace because grace has always been the method of salvation.

See Avatar

Too good to let die


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way 2 go
March 17th, 2017, 08:21 PM
There is a misguided idea out there that God has two Covenants, one being the Law and the other being the imaginary Covenant of Grace found nowhere in scripture. Lol

2 covenants

Mat 26:28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

and

Gen 17:5 No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham, for I have made you the father of a multitude of nations.
Gen 17:6 I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make you into nations, and kings shall come from you.
Gen 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your offspring after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you.

bloodshed and covenant confirmed each time the
work of circumcision is done.

Gen 17:10 This is my covenant, which you shall keep, between me and you and your offspring after you: Every male among you shall be circumcised.



I have a problem with this. Because this 2 covenant theory implies that God saved people by works in one part of the history of mankind and now God saves people by grace.
circumcision was necessary
Moses once thought like you and didn't circumcise his son

Exo 4:24 At a lodging place on the way the LORD met him{Moses} and sought to put him to death.
Exo 4:25 Then Zipporah took a flint and cut off her son's foreskin and touched Moses' feet with it and said, "Surely you are a bridegroom of blood to me!"



https://media.giphy.com/media/Alfb46lOc1kVG/200w_d.gif