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ABMF
February 22nd, 2014, 08:12 PM
Purpose: Wake up the sinner who thinks they are a good person and that good deeds will outway the bad. Bring a conviction of sin. Wake up the believer who has sin as a practice. Wake up the unsaved to the condition they are in. Remind those who walk in victory over sin of what they were saved from. ALL to the power and glory of Jesus Christ.

You think you are going to heaven?Take this test. In taking the test do it in the light of the principle of the question being asked and apply it to your own life circumstances. Lust: (married) persons: Have you had sexual or inappropriate relations with a person you were not married to, while married to someone else? Have you had sexual lustful thoughts( fantasies) of desire toward a person when you looked at them while married to someone else? Looked to long at, because a person of the opposite sex was attractive or good looking? Decided you could look as long as you don't touch? Married a person who got divorced apart from Gods permission? If yes to any of those God says you are guilty of adultery.

(to the unmarried or ((married person pertaining to their past before marriage): Have you had sexual or inappropriate relations with a person you were not married to? Have you had sexual lustful thoughts (fantasies) of desire toward a person when you looked at them ? Looked to long at, because a person of the opposite sex was attractive or good looking? If yes you are guilty of fornication.

Have you ever committed morally questionable acts and conduct toward others or yourself? Ever enjoy "a good" dirty joke?Then God says you are guilty of uncleanness.Played magic games? Visited a psychic or medium or palm reading? Had your fortune told? Followed a horoscope? Played with a ouija board? Read books with topics of magic, wizards and witchcraft? Followed tv shows of people doing strange and paranormal/supernatural things? Witchcraft? Occult? Twilight? Harry Potter ? Bewitched? If yes to any of those you according to God are unclean.

You ever committed lustful or sexually offensive actions toward others such as hitting on someone with a sexually explicit pick up line or publicly showed actions in order to attract sexual attention? Posed in a picture as to show sexy? Walked or carried your body, or dressed to attract sexual attention? Hows your beach swim attire? If yes to any God says you are guilty of lewdness.

Do you put your trust for your health finances and well being in anyone or anything other then God alone? Do you put anyone or anything first foremost and greatest place and part of your life other then God? Do you devote or dedicate your time, effort, ability and skill to anyone or anything other then God or what is of Him?(that includes yourself) Do you esteem, love, give devotion or time over to things that are not Godly or approved of by Him? If yes then you are guilty of the sin of idolatry.

Ever do drugs? Legal or other? Smoke? If yes then you are guilty before God of sorcery.

Ever have a serious dislike or distaste with actions or feelings of being hostile or seriously unfriendly toward someone or anyone even if a enemy or opponent? If yes you are guilty of hatred.

Really ever get angry with a person? If yes then you are before God guilty of murder. Ever shoot anyone even in a war? Or in self defense? Same guilt before God. Murder.

Ever had strife debate or controversy with a person with animosity wrong intentions or dislike toward them? Sue anyone? Take them to court? Argue with ill will? Get in a fight? If yes then you are guilty of the sin of contentions.

Ever not like the fact that someone is enjoying success or an advantage like being paid or given more or got attention for his or her accomplishment more then someone you thought deserved it, like yourself? Or even wished you got it or had it and not, or instead of, that person? Wish you got that present or money that so and so got given instead of them? If yes you are guilty of jealousies. If you do these things with covetousness of wanting of the advantages successes and wealth then the guilt of envy comes.

Ever lash out in anger physically or verbally? punch a wall or beat a person our animal or go into a verbal shouting yelling and screaming fit, have road rage or anger at another driver or person who upset you and you let them know through your actions or in some way that you are mad angry and upset? If yes then you are guilty of out bursts of wrath.

Ever wish everyone would recognize how good you are and wanted your own personal agenda to be the goal of everyone around you regardless of others? Ever work hard to get accomplished the thing you have always wanted without consideration to the cost of others around you? Career goal that was sacrificed greatly for even if by stealing time or hurting those around you? You are guilty of selfish ambitions.

Do you regularly get in disagreements and arguments and be that person who certain topics can never be discussed with but you enjoy that? Political and social issues that you argue about and take a stubborn stand on your views and no one better present anything that opposes it or else? If yes you are guilty of dissensions.

Do you hold beliefs or ideas or thoughts that you believe are true, that are contrary to God and His word? Example do you believe in evolution or other "scientific" explanations of biblical accounts, views, world events along with ethical and moral conduct of society? Be it historical or present? If yes you are guilty of heresies.

Ever get drunk? Take part in a party with loud music dancing games food fun drinking getting high making out with all the actions and activities of sexual perversion drunkenness ect? If yes you are guilty of the sin of drunkenness and revelries.

Ever tell a lie?little white lie? Half truth? Explain something in order to give the wrong perception or impression to deceive or keep someone believing an untruth? If yes you are guilty of being a liar.

Ever steal anything? Take anything that did not belong to you without asking because if you did, someone might object, not wanting you to do so? If yes you are guilty of stealing.

Ever lie tell a half truth or present a obscure view about someone you knew to someone else as to cause that person you lied about trouble or to look bad and win people over to your point of view about that person? Does that sound like gossip? You are guilty of false witness.

Ever look at someone’s house and want it? How about wanting some ones wife or husband? Wanting some ones laborer who contracted with them to break that contract and come work for you? Wish you had someone else's horse cows chickens cat or dog? lawn or farm tractor? Truck car boat RV sport utility vehicle? Wanting a painting or musical instrument that is one of a kind or exclusively made but belongs to someone else?If you did any of these type of things with a seriousness then you are guilty of covetousness.

Ever take the Lord's name in vain? Use it to curse or swear? Even if someone scared you and in surprise expression say oh Jes@$&$? You are guilty of blasphemy.

Ever want to exert your will over someone else? Ever wish you were the boss so you could show them a thing or to? Ever boast about your abilities and achievements as to present yourself as being someone smart and great or better than others? Ever inflate your achievements to seem greater then what they actually are? Ever try to put yourself at the top and make it seem like your most valuable one in the group as to not be laid off, fired, thought badly about or looked down on or excluded and rejected? Guilt of selfishness and pride of life belongs to you.

To the person without God: You said no to all the above and say that you have not done any of those things? Or that your good deeds will out weigh the bad? If yes you are guilty of self righteousness and lying. Hypocrite! Look at our own (good part) justice system. Would a good judge acquit a man who was a horrific murderer ( go ahead and create a really bad crime rap sheet list in your own mind) just because he donated large sums of money to charity, helped the poor, saved some one from drowning, doing all that now and then to balance out his crime? To the person "with God" but have any of the above as a regular thing in your life but deny it you are guilty of lying and hypocrisy with self-righteousness.

You said yes to most of the above and are without God? Here then is the title you have.

adulterator Fornicating unclean lewd idolater sorcerer hatful Murderer contentious jealous envying wrathful selfish dissentious* heretical drunken reveler lying stealing false witness ( slanderer) covetous selfish prideful blasphemer

And you are going to stand before a sinless perfect pure holy righteous God and expect Him to let you into heaven?Go ahead and add arrogant to your title. Humans are not worthy to be saved with absolutely no value in or of themselves to ever attract God to love or save them. Humans are to Him of themselves deserving of the very depths of hell with all it's endless horrors and tortures along with all the other demonic creatures and beings who rebelled against Him because they are as them! A rebellious creation who loves the sin they are in and are always pron to do evil! God is so righteous so holy so perfect that He cannot and will not tolerate warm up to be desensitized about or talked into permitting sin. He demands of His creation that they walk before Him and be perfect! If they won't do it then the place prearranged for that sort is where they will go. It is not His desire that they go, but they of their own will not to obey and therefore putting themselves under His wrath and judgment. God is not a humanist. He is not begging you and pleading with you to stop sinning repent, get a new nature to be made perfect by the blood of His Son Jesus Christ who died on a cross and three days later He raised Him from the dead, and by His blood, atonement can be made for your sins. No instead it’s a gentle invitation to all, that whoever will hear can receive forgiveness for their sin and be changed from being a sinner to saved. Anyone who will believe and receive Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior can be made into a new person and be the perfection through Christ, the work of The Holy Spirit, that God demands. It's the pure Holy blood of Jesus Christ that God shed for the forgiveness of sin that enables you to be made into a new person free from sin and it's desires. You must be born again! Without it you can never be free from sin. With it you will not continue to commit as a practice, sin.

(The person who has sin as a practice in their lives, meaning as a regular occurrence of normal needs to repent and get right with God and do what it takes to live a life of victory over sin)

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” (Revelation 21:8 NKJV)

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. (Galatians 5:19-21 NKJV)

Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world. And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever. (1 John 2:15-17 NKJV)

Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Corinthians 6:9, 10 NKJV)

Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body. (1 Corinthians 6:18 NKJV)

But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Now as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith; but they will progress no further, for their folly will be manifest to all, as theirs also was. (2 Timothy 3:1-9 NKJV)

knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine, according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust. And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord who has enabled me, because He counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry, although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant, with faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen. (apostle Paul speaking in 1 Timothy.)

But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth. Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all. (Colossians 3:8-11 NKJV)

But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of dignitaries. Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves. Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit, and perished in the rebellion of Korah. These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots; raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever. Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.” These are grumblers, complainers, walking according to their own lusts; and they mouth great swelling words, flattering people to gain advantage. But you, beloved, remember the words which were spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ: how they told you that there would be mockers in the last time who would walk according to their own ungodly lusts. These are sensual persons, who cause divisions, not having the Spirit. But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. And on some have compassion, making a distinction; but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh. (Jude 1:5-23 NKJV)

But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life. (Revelation 21:27 NKJV)

Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie. “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.” And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely. (Revelation 22:14-17 NKJV)

Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, uI will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. 21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.22 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.” ’ (Jesus Christ) Revelation 3

Nick M
March 1st, 2014, 10:45 AM
I am already seated in heavenly places.

I have an easier question. Do you covet? Do you see what others have and think that would be nice to have their stuff for yourself? That is proof of being unrighteous, as sin increases with the law.

MarkA
March 1st, 2014, 11:14 AM
no I am going to the universe when I die.

'cause we all know "heaven" means universe.

jamie
March 1st, 2014, 02:02 PM
If a person is dead they can't move, they can't go anywhere on their own.

Buzzword
March 1st, 2014, 02:21 PM
The question is inadequate.

Here's a better one:
If there were no Heaven and no Hell, would you still be a Christian?

If no reward for your good deeds was dangled out there at the end of life, if no threat of punishment was blasted in your eyes, IF THE ONLY REWARD OR PUNISHMENT IS A FULFILLING LIFE OR A LACK OF ONE, would you still follow Christ?

musterion
March 1st, 2014, 02:28 PM
The question is inadequate.

Here's a better one:
If there were no Heaven and no Hell, would you still be a Christian?

The question is flawed. If there were no heaven there'd be no God, thus no Christ, thus no Christianity. Nor anything else.

Buzzword
March 1st, 2014, 02:52 PM
The question is flawed. If there were no heaven there'd be no God, thus no Christ, thus no Christianity. Nor anything else.

So God's existence is predicated upon the existence of somewhere we can also be?

Last time I checked, God is before all things, and all things depend upon Him, not the other way around.

musterion
March 1st, 2014, 03:17 PM
So God's existence is predicated upon the existence of somewhere we can also be?

No. The concept of the heaven to which your counter-question referred depends upon the existence of the God of the Bible and is a meaningless concept without Him. You must have known that when you formulated the question.

Christian Liberty
March 1st, 2014, 08:12 PM
That was a long post. I think I agree with the spirit of it, but I did skim it. I'm assuming you finished with the argument that none of us can be good enough and so we need Christ's sacrificial death. If you finished with something to that effect, good job.

I did notice this point, and I disagreed with it:


Do you regularly get in disagreements and arguments and be that person who certain topics can never be discussed with but you enjoy that? Political and social issues that you argue about and take a stubborn stand on your views and no one better present anything that opposes it or else? If yes you are guilty of dissensions.


I don't know what you mean by this, but I think most Christians are too wishy washy on these points and I do not think taking a strong, uncompromising stand on most political issues makes you "guilty of dissension." Instead, I would argue that those who support taxation, war, and laws against peaceful actions are guilty of violations of Exodus 20:15, Exodus 20:13, and Romans 12:18 respectively, and that Christians who support those things should be told to repent. Supporting coercion is immoral, and saying so is not being "guilty of dissention."

ABMF
March 8th, 2014, 08:26 PM
If a person is dead they can't move, they can't go anywhere on their own.
And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Luke 12 kjv

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10 kjv

I tell you, My friends, do not dread and be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have nothing more that they can do.
But I will warn you whom you should fear: fear Him Who, after killing, has power to hurl into hell (Gehenna); yes, I say to you, fear Him! AMP

JosephR
March 8th, 2014, 08:29 PM
a judge amounge us.

your drugs you condemn men to hell or nothing in comparison to those gave already without knowledge,,,for only the truth sets us free..

are we men or are we cattle?

bigbang123
March 12th, 2014, 03:41 PM
It reminds me of a country song I heard the other day - "everybody wants to go to heaven, everybody wants to go to heaven, everybody wants to go to heaven but nobody wants to go NOW".

ac111971
March 20th, 2014, 04:34 AM
No one will go to heaven unless you believe in true god and true religion.

IMJerusha
March 21st, 2014, 01:07 PM
Purpose: Wake up the sinner who thinks they are a good person and that good deeds will outway the bad. Bring a conviction of sin. Wake up the believer who has sin as a practice. Wake up the unsaved to the condition they are in. Remind those who walk in victory over sin of what they were saved from. ALL to the power and glory of Jesus Christ.

You think you are going to heaven?Take this test. In taking the test do it in the light of the principle of the question being asked and apply it to your own life circumstances. Lust: (married) persons: Have you had sexual or inappropriate relations with a person you were not married to, while married to someone else? Have you had sexual lustful thoughts( fantasies) of desire toward a person when you looked at them while married to someone else? Looked to long at, because a person of the opposite sex was attractive or good looking? Decided you could look as long as you don't touch? Married a person who got divorced apart from Gods permission? If yes to any of those God says you are guilty of adultery.

(to the unmarried or ((married person pertaining to their past before marriage): Have you had sexual or inappropriate relations with a person you were not married to? Have you had sexual lustful thoughts (fantasies) of desire toward a person when you looked at them ? Looked to long at, because a person of the opposite sex was attractive or good looking? If yes you are guilty of fornication.

Have you ever committed morally questionable acts and conduct toward others or yourself? Ever enjoy "a good" dirty joke?Then God says you are guilty of uncleanness.Played magic games? Visited a psychic or medium or palm reading? Had your fortune told? Followed a horoscope? Played with a ouija board? Read books with topics of magic, wizards and witchcraft? Followed tv shows of people doing strange and paranormal/supernatural things? Witchcraft? Occult? Twilight? Harry Potter ? Bewitched? If yes to any of those you according to God are unclean.

You ever committed lustful or sexually offensive actions toward others such as hitting on someone with a sexually explicit pick up line or publicly showed actions in order to attract sexual attention? Posed in a picture as to show sexy? Walked or carried your body, or dressed to attract sexual attention? Hows your beach swim attire? If yes to any God says you are guilty of lewdness.

Do you put your trust for your health finances and well being in anyone or anything other then God alone? Do you put anyone or anything first foremost and greatest place and part of your life other then God? Do you devote or dedicate your time, effort, ability and skill to anyone or anything other then God or what is of Him?(that includes yourself) Do you esteem, love, give devotion or time over to things that are not Godly or approved of by Him? If yes then you are guilty of the sin of idolatry.

Ever do drugs? Legal or other? Smoke? If yes then you are guilty before God of sorcery.

Ever have a serious dislike or distaste with actions or feelings of being hostile or seriously unfriendly toward someone or anyone even if a enemy or opponent? If yes you are guilty of hatred.

Really ever get angry with a person? If yes then you are before God guilty of murder. Ever shoot anyone even in a war? Or in self defense? Same guilt before God. Murder.

Ever had strife debate or controversy with a person with animosity wrong intentions or dislike toward them? Sue anyone? Take them to court? Argue with ill will? Get in a fight? If yes then you are guilty of the sin of contentions.

Ever not like the fact that someone is enjoying success or an advantage like being paid or given more or got attention for his or her accomplishment more then someone you thought deserved it, like yourself? Or even wished you got it or had it and not, or instead of, that person? Wish you got that present or money that so and so got given instead of them? If yes you are guilty of jealousies. If you do these things with covetousness of wanting of the advantages successes and wealth then the guilt of envy comes.

Ever lash out in anger physically or verbally? punch a wall or beat a person our animal or go into a verbal shouting yelling and screaming fit, have road rage or anger at another driver or person who upset you and you let them know through your actions or in some way that you are mad angry and upset? If yes then you are guilty of out bursts of wrath.

Ever wish everyone would recognize how good you are and wanted your own personal agenda to be the goal of everyone around you regardless of others? Ever work hard to get accomplished the thing you have always wanted without consideration to the cost of others around you? Career goal that was sacrificed greatly for even if by stealing time or hurting those around you? You are guilty of selfish ambitions.

Do you regularly get in disagreements and arguments and be that person who certain topics can never be discussed with but you enjoy that? Political and social issues that you argue about and take a stubborn stand on your views and no one better present anything that opposes it or else? If yes you are guilty of dissensions.

Do you hold beliefs or ideas or thoughts that you believe are true, that are contrary to God and His word? Example do you believe in evolution or other "scientific" explanations of biblical accounts, views, world events along with ethical and moral conduct of society? Be it historical or present? If yes you are guilty of heresies.

Ever get drunk? Take part in a party with loud music dancing games food fun drinking getting high making out with all the actions and activities of sexual perversion drunkenness ect? If yes you are guilty of the sin of drunkenness and revelries.

Ever tell a lie?little white lie? Half truth? Explain something in order to give the wrong perception or impression to deceive or keep someone believing an untruth? If yes you are guilty of being a liar.

Ever steal anything? Take anything that did not belong to you without asking because if you did, someone might object, not wanting you to do so? If yes you are guilty of stealing.

Ever lie tell a half truth or present a obscure view about someone you knew to someone else as to cause that person you lied about trouble or to look bad and win people over to your point of view about that person? Does that sound like gossip? You are guilty of false witness.

Ever look at someone’s house and want it? How about wanting some ones wife or husband? Wanting some ones laborer who contracted with them to break that contract and come work for you? Wish you had someone else's horse cows chickens cat or dog? lawn or farm tractor? Truck car boat RV sport utility vehicle? Wanting a painting or musical instrument that is one of a kind or exclusively made but belongs to someone else?If you did any of these type of things with a seriousness then you are guilty of covetousness.

Ever take the Lord's name in vain? Use it to curse or swear? Even if someone scared you and in surprise expression say oh Jes@$&$? You are guilty of blasphemy.

Ever want to exert your will over someone else? Ever wish you were the boss so you could show them a thing or to? Ever boast about your abilities and achievements as to present yourself as being someone smart and great or better than others? Ever inflate your achievements to seem greater then what they actually are? Ever try to put yourself at the top and make it seem like your most valuable one in the group as to not be laid off, fired, thought badly about or looked down on or excluded and rejected? Guilt of selfishness and pride of life belongs to you.

To the person without God: You said no to all the above and say that you have not done any of those things? Or that your good deeds will out weigh the bad? If yes you are guilty of self righteousness and lying. Hypocrite! Look at our own (good part) justice system. Would a good judge acquit a man who was a horrific murderer ( go ahead and create a really bad crime rap sheet list in your own mind) just because he donated large sums of money to charity, helped the poor, saved some one from drowning, doing all that now and then to balance out his crime? To the person "with God" but have any of the above as a regular thing in your life but deny it you are guilty of lying and hypocrisy with self-righteousness.

You said yes to most of the above and are without God? Here then is the title you have.

adulterator Fornicating unclean lewd idolater sorcerer hatful Murderer contentious jealous envying wrathful selfish dissentious* heretical drunken reveler lying stealing false witness ( slanderer) covetous selfish prideful blasphemer

And you are going to stand before a sinless perfect pure holy righteous God and expect Him to let you into heaven?Go ahead and add arrogant to your title. Humans are not worthy to be saved with absolutely no value in or of themselves to ever attract God to love or save them. Humans are to Him of themselves deserving of the very depths of hell with all it's endless horrors and tortures along with all the other demonic creatures and beings who rebelled against Him because they are as them! A rebellious creation who loves the sin they are in and are always pron to do evil! God is so righteous so holy so perfect that He cannot and will not tolerate warm up to be desensitized about or talked into permitting sin. He demands of His creation that they walk before Him and be perfect! If they won't do it then the place prearranged for that sort is where they will go. It is not His desire that they go, but they of their own will not to obey and therefore putting themselves under His wrath and judgment. God is not a humanist. He is not begging you and pleading with you to stop sinning repent, get a new nature to be made perfect by the blood of His Son Jesus Christ who died on a cross and three days later He raised Him from the dead, and by His blood, atonement can be made for your sins. No instead it’s a gentle invitation to all, that whoever will hear can receive forgiveness for their sin and be changed from being a sinner to saved. Anyone who will believe and receive Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior can be made into a new person and be the perfection through Christ, the work of The Holy Spirit, that God demands. It's the pure Holy blood of Jesus Christ that God shed for the forgiveness of sin that enables you to be made into a new person free from sin and it's desires. You must be born again! Without it you can never be free from sin. With it you will not continue to commit as a practice, sin.

(The person who has sin as a practice in their lives, meaning as a regular occurrence of normal needs to repent and get right with God and do what it takes to live a life of victory over sin)

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” (Revelation 21:8 NKJV)

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. (Galatians 5:19-21 NKJV)

Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world. And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever. (1 John 2:15-17 NKJV)

Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Corinthians 6:9, 10 NKJV)

Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body. (1 Corinthians 6:18 NKJV)

But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Now as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith; but they will progress no further, for their folly will be manifest to all, as theirs also was. (2 Timothy 3:1-9 NKJV)

knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine, according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust. And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord who has enabled me, because He counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry, although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant, with faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen. (apostle Paul speaking in 1 Timothy.)

But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth. Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all. (Colossians 3:8-11 NKJV)

But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of dignitaries. Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves. Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit, and perished in the rebellion of Korah. These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots; raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever. Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.” These are grumblers, complainers, walking according to their own lusts; and they mouth great swelling words, flattering people to gain advantage. But you, beloved, remember the words which were spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ: how they told you that there would be mockers in the last time who would walk according to their own ungodly lusts. These are sensual persons, who cause divisions, not having the Spirit. But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. And on some have compassion, making a distinction; but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh. (Jude 1:5-23 NKJV)

But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life. (Revelation 21:27 NKJV)

Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie. “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.” And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely. (Revelation 22:14-17 NKJV)

Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, uI will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. 21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.22 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.” ’ (Jesus Christ) Revelation 3

So, no loud music dancing games food fun drinking?

Hmm, what say you about women covering their heads when they pray or prophesy? What say you about the decision of the Jerusalem Council? I'm just trying to get the gist of your "purpose." Do you think that "ungodly lusts" might also include man's interpretive doctrines? Do you ever get the feeling that if you do just what Scripture says that over half of the Body will condemn you for it? We seem to be condemned if we do and condemned if we don't. It gets pretty disheartening at times.

jamie
March 21st, 2014, 03:33 PM
You think you are going to heaven?


No.

Jesus prayed for God's kingdom to come and his will be done on earth as it is in heaven. If God's kingdom is coming to earth why go to heaven and miss all the action?

Because Jesus has connections I believe his prayer will be granted.

How about you?

Stuu
March 21st, 2014, 05:03 PM
Ever enjoy "a good" dirty joke?
Only the really good ones.


ABMF, are you available for a job interview with the Taliban this coming Tuesday?

Stuart

IMJerusha
March 24th, 2014, 01:42 PM
I am already seated in heavenly places.

There is a proviso to that:
John 15:1-6 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

ABMF
March 25th, 2014, 06:54 PM
No.

Jesus prayed for God's kingdom to come and his will be done on earth as it is in heaven. If God's kingdom is coming to earth why go to heaven and miss all the action?

Because Jesus has connections I believe his prayer will be granted.

How about you?
The thousand year rain by Jesus Christ will happen. But I do believe that you are confused on your version of the Kingdom of Heaven by thinking heaven will be here on this current earth. There are aspects to the Kingdom of God and its entrance that people get confused on. Take John chapter three for example. Unless you are born again you can not even see the Kingdom. Unless you are Born of water and the Spirit you can not enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Some people set conditions on salvation. They say that unless you confess in repentance to get born again(which is true), then you must be baptised in water by immersion(born of water) and receive the Holy Spirit(born of the Spirit) then you are saved. Meaning they say that Jesus was saying that unless you get born again AND get baptized AND receive the Holy Spirit you can not be saved. John 3 Acts 2. That is not correct. Jesus Christ was speaking of more than one aspect of the Kingdom. It is both a literal place (heaven) and it is something that takes place inside of you. Its reign and rule inside of you. Luke 17:"And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you." You should key word search heaven in the Bible and see what the aspects are. Does the Kingdom of Heaven have its place inside of you? Unless you are Born again, Baptised in water by immersion in Jesus name(separate event from salvation to be done with scriptural understanding), and receive the Holy Spirit (separate event from salvation. Initial evidence is speaking in tongues) you can not enter in. Those are the three keys to the Kingdom of Heaven and its rule being established in you and you entering into it here and now.

Angel4Truth
March 25th, 2014, 07:17 PM
Are you Going to Heaven? yes.

Angel4Truth
March 25th, 2014, 07:19 PM
Meaning they say that Jesus was saying that unless you get born again AND get baptized AND receive the Holy Spirit you can not be saved.

One receives the Holy Spirit the moment they are born again, and are also instantly baptized into the body of Christ.
Ephesians 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Ephesians 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.


Unless you are Born again, Baptised in water by immersion in Jesus name(separate event from salvation to be done with scriptural understanding), and receive the Holy Spirit (separate event from salvation. Initial evidence is speaking in tongues) you can not enter in. Those are the three keys to the Kingdom of Heaven and its rule being established in you and you entering into it here and now.

This is false doctrine.

ABMF
March 28th, 2014, 06:56 PM
If you mean to say that there is no Baptisms plural see also in refutation Hebrews 6. When they believed, Got born again, they did what the apostles told them to do. John 3 Acts 2 Acts 10 and 11, Acts 19 ect. The baptism in the Holy Spirit is a separate event likened unto salvation. Just like Water Baptism is a separate event. The moment you get saved you are not automatically considered water baptised by immersion in Jesus name you have to go through that. Same thing with the baptism in the HOLY Spirit. I do agree that when you get saved you have the Holy Spirit with you. When you get baptised in the Holy Spirit you have Him IN you.

ABMF
March 28th, 2014, 07:49 PM
Holy Spirit
Why is speaking in tongues so important? The best book for reference for this topic is the Bible.

Lets Take a look at John Chapter 3. Here we see a man called Nicodemus who came to Jesus to talk to Him. See John chapter 3.

Its important to note special attention to the words of Jesus that He replied with.

Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” John 3:3

Now we understand the born again experience is salvation. Romans 10

But what about the other two required experiences that Jesus mentions here?

Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. John 3:5

So here is a total of 3 things mentioned. We have identified the one 1 Born again(salvation) 2 Born of water(?) 3 Born of the Spirit(?)

Remember Peter? lets take a look at what Jesus told Him in Matthew.

And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

Now what are these keys that Jesus told Peter He was going to give him?

Lets back up. The apostles who followed Jesus and were with Him and believed Him left and decided to go back to life as usual after Jesus left.

Simon Peter said to them, “I am going fishing.”
They said to him, “We are going with you also.” They went out and immediately got into the boat, and that night they caught nothing. John 21.

Back to the same old grind, life as usual, (which happens to so many believers after they get born again.)

So what was the single experience that we can see and note in scripture that changed there hearts, minds and attitudes from going back to fishing to being men of God who preached with signs wonders and miracles?
PENTECOST! There they received the the infilling of the Holy Spirit that empowered them to live a life for Jesus Christ and be HIS witnesses!

Okay so right after the infilling of the Holy Spirit we see an attitude change in Peter, He went from "I'm going fishing" to preaching with power! So what about those keys to the kingdom that Jesus said He was going to give him? He proclaims them boldly!

Lets take a look! Lets tune in to right after peter preaches Jesus Christ in a wonderfully powerful message! What was the crowds reaction?

“Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”

Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”

Did you catch that? He mentioned three things that they are to do! Number one Repent! Number two! Be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ! Number three receive the gift of the Holy Spirit! Three keys to the christian life!

1“Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” -Jesus

1“Repent"- peter

2"unless one is born of water" -Jesus

2"be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ"-peter

3"and the Spirit"-Jesus

3"you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit"-peter

So here we see it!

So what about this whole tongues deal being evidence of the Holy Spirit? Lets stick with Peter's experience on the issue. We all know the bible said they spoke with tongues when the Holy Spirit came and filled them at the first.

And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. Acts 2.


So lets take a look at the event of when the gentiles received the Holy Spirit!

We know in Acts 10 that Peter needed a little working over to be able to prepare his heart to preach to the gentiles. (visions of the sheet being let down from heaven clean and unlcean)

So near the end of acts 10 we see Peter, who Jesus told that He was going to give the keys of the Kingdom, preaching to the gentiles. Let read and see what happens and how this ties in!

He was preaching Jesus to them explaining the gospel :

While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.

Look at that! The evidence that they got it was speaking in tongues! Are we greater then those of the bible that our experience does not have to match?

More evidence and exhortation needed that tongues are a valid and initial sign of the baptism?

Lets take a look at PAUL! In Acts 19 we find that he has found some believers and begins to talk with them. We all should agree that believers are ones who have gotten the salvation experience under their belt.

here goes :
And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”So they said to him, “We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.”
And he said to them, “Into what then were you baptized?”
So they said, “Into John’s baptism.” Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.

WOW look at that! They had not yet even been baptized in the name of JESUS CHRIST! So what did they do? They got re- baptized. I lay it to you that many! in Christianity have not gotten baptized correctly and need to do so to complete key number 2! But wait? what happened? the first initial evidence recorded there? THEY SPOKE IN TONGUES!

What does Jude 1:20 give the command of?
But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,

Tongues explained :

For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.

For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. (your mind can't grasp it for the carnal mind is enmity with God)

What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding.

Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe.

How is it then, brethren? Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification. ( just some of them?) no each of them!)

All above found in 1 Corinthians 14

And I will close with this! If this is not reason enough and your faith is not quickened well....

here it is :
"and these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;.." Mark 16:17

There is a difference between the gift of tongues mentioned in the (1 Cor 12) bible as a listed Gifting and your regular prayer language of tongues (Jude 1:20 and Ephesians 6)

ABMF
March 28th, 2014, 07:59 PM
WHY SPEAK IN TONGUES?
The Christian's Three-fold Ministry.
Through Prayer in the Spirit
by DR. Hobart E. Freeman, Th.D.
CONTENTS:
Introduction
• Chapter 1......How to Overcome Hindrances to Speaking in Tongues
• Chapter 2...... Why Speak in Tongues?
The Christian's Three-Fold Ministry in Tongues:
Ministering to Oneself
Ministering to God
Ministering to Others
• Chapter 3...... How to Receive the Baptism in the Holy Spirit


INTRODUCTION
Why speak in tongues? Surely there must be valid, scriptural reasons, or God would not have instituted this as the "sign" of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, nor established it as one of the "gifts of the Spirit" which He set in the church Acts 2:4; I Corinthians 12:28). In view of this, I have written this book primarily for the purpose of helping those Christians who have settled any doctrinal questions or doubts they may have had about the possib- ility of receiving the charismatic experience. For the sake of those who may not be thoroughly grounded in the Scriptures in regard to this question, the final chapter sets forth the basic scriptural instruction for those who wish to receive the baptism in the Holy Spirit.
The baptism in the Holy Spirit is clearly promised the believer in the Word of God, but one cannot receive this blessing until he has gotten over his doubts and fears, or any doctrinal problems concerning the validity of this experience for today. All god's promises are appropriated by faith. To remove doubts, as well as any unscriptural ideas about the question, we recommend a study of God's Word on this matter. This is how the writer received this experience, and has been privileged to pray for countless hundreds of other Christians who also received the Baptism in the Holy Spirit, with the evidence of speaking supernaturally in new tongues.
There is considerable confusion today among Christians over the question of the baptism in the Spirit and speaking in tongues. They have been misled and mistaught about this matter for so long that they really do not know what to believe. Satan has created such a fear in the hearts of many people concerning the baptism in the Spirit that the very mention of the subject is enough to frighten them into open resistance. Moreover, even when some Christians come to see the validity of the baptism in the Spirit for today and desire the experience, because they think that there may be some stigma associated with speaking in tongues, often they will ask: "Can I receive the baptism in the Spirit without tongues? I have no particular need for speaking in tongues." Sometimes they will ask: "What is the good of speaking in tongues?"
A Lutheran confided to me one day: "I came to the conviction that the baptism in the Holy Spirit was valid for today, and I greatly desired this blessing; but when I asked the Lord to baptize me in His Spirit, I prayed, 'Lord, I would like to have the baptism in the Spirit, but I would like to receive it without tongues. After all, I don't want to offend any of my Lutheran friends.' I had no sooner prayed this when the Holy Spirit asked me, 'Do you think that you are more of a gentlemen than I am?"
This settled the matter of speaking in tongues for him. He repented of his assumption that the presence of the Holy Spirit in him, anointing him to praise God supernaturally, could be anything but one of the most blessed experiences of the Christian life. We too shall just leave the matter there, trusting that the Holy Spirit's reply to him will also settle the matter for other sincere Christians. To believe that God would ever give us an experience except that which is sacred and holy, or to think that the manifestation of His Presence in us would not glorify Him, is, of course, out of the question.
The purpose of this book, however, is not to discuss the validity of this experience (which is set forth in my books on Faith and Deeper Life in the Spirit), but our desire is:
• to help the thousands of Christians who have received the baptism in the Holy Spirit to understand more clearly why they should continue to speak in tongues regularly after their initial experience, and:
• to help others overcome certain hindrances in those instances where they experience a lack of freedom regarding prayer in the Spirit.
CHAPTER 1
How to Overcome Hindrances to Speaking in Tongues
We address ourselves in this chapter primarily to those charismatic Christians who, for one reason or another, occasion some difficulty or hindrance regarding prayer in the Spirit, and who lack freedom in tongues and release in the Spirit which they had hoped would accompany their infilling with the Holy Spirit.
"I received the baptism in the Holy Spirit several months ago," a Christian said to me, "but I have spoken only two or three words in new tongues. I greatly desire more freedom in the Spirit, but nothing more seems to come. Why is this?"
Another confided: "I experienced a wonderful anointing by the Spirit at the time of my baptism, and I spoke fluently for some time. However, I have not prayed in the spirit too often since, as I seldom feel this anointing to speak in tongues. I thought the anointing remained with us after receiving the baptism in the Spirit. What has happened?"
In another instance, a Christian remarked: "I have not continued to speak in tongues since my baptism, as God did not give me the gift of tongues."
A Methodist pastor stated: "I pray in tongues occiasionally, usually when I am in some charismatic gathering with other Spirit-filled Christians. But generally I feel that it is just me doing the speaking, so I don't pray regularly in the Spirit."
Another confided with concern: "I was not aware that I was supposed to continue to pray in the Spirit after my baptism; therefore, I did not continue to do so. Since then I have seen the error in this, but now I find that I am unable to speak in tongues, even though I have tried and tried, and have prayed earnestly about the problem."
What is the cause of such difficulties as these? We have found that due to some hindrance many charismatic Christians who spoke in tongues at the time of their baptism in the Spirit either do not continue to pray in the Spirit, or do so infrequently, often without any real freedom. Generally, hindrances to the continuation of speaking in tongues after the initial experience result from one of the following causes.
1. A negative attitude and confession.
Many Christians do not seem to realize how often they defeat themselves by their negative attitudes and by what they say or confess. The Scriptures warn that "as [a man] thinketh in his heart, so is he" (Proverbs 6:2).
"I received the baptism in the Holy Spirit several months ago," one concerned woman confided, "but I still cannot speak more than two or three words in new tongues. Can you tell me what is wrong?"
"Yes," I replied. "The solution to your problem is really quite simple. It is your attitude. Your negative confession is defeating you. You can only speak two or three words simply because you do not expect more than two or three words. And since this is what you believe, it is reflected in your confession of failure. The next time you pray in the Spirit confess beforehand that you will speak more than two or three words in tongues, and then act on your confession of faith. Expect a full language to come, and you will find that it will happen."
I have also found that this negative attitude and confession prevents some Christians who desire to be baptized in the Holy Spirit from receiving the experience. After the service one evening, a woman asked why she had no evidence of her baptism, saying, "I received prayer for the baptism in the Spirit, but I have never spoken in ton gues. Actually, I never felt that speaking in tongues was important; but I have prayed, "Lord, if you want me to have this evidence, then let me receive it."
As in the case of the other individual, she too was being snared by the words of her mouth. "God will never give us anything He has promised us," I answered, "unless we reach out by faith and appropriate it. Since speaking in tongues is the evidence or sign of the baptism in the Spirit, then you cannot receive such evidence as long as you are expressing disinterest or doubts as to its validity. Settle the matter from the Word of God, and then in faith ask for the evidence, and you will find that you will receive it."
In another instance similar to this, a woman who had received prayer for the infilling of the Holy Spirit had not spoken in tongues because of her negative attitude which had resulted from erroneous teaching on the subject by her denomination. She called one morning sating her problem on the phone. She anxiously desired to be baptized in the Spirit, but confessed that she had reservations about speaking in tongues as evidence of the infilling.
"You teach that speaking in tongues is the evidence and sign of the baptism in the Spirit," she said, "whereas my church holds that speaking in tongues was an experience limited to the early church, and that we receive the baptism today without such evidence."
"Then, I would suggest," I replied, "that you lay aside for the present what I have said, as well as what your church has taught you on the subject, and spend some time reading the Book of Acts to see what God has said about the matter, giving particular attention to chapters 2,9 (with Corinthians 14:18), 10 and 19. If after a sincere, prayerful study of these passages you still do not see the validity of tongues as evidence of the baptism in the Spirit, then you may as well forget the matter, for you will not receive the experience."
I am thoroughly convinced that a sincere search of the Word of God is the only way for contemporary Christians to overcome their confusion and the erroneous ideas which they have been taught about such matters as the baptism of the Holy Spirit, speaking in tongues, divine healing, the charismatic gifts, and the validity of the miraculous in the church today.
About an hour later this woman called back, rejoicing in the Lord, saying, "I did as you suggested and began reading the Book of Acts with an open heart--and then it happened! I was only able to get to chapter 10 when I received the baptism in the Spirit with the evidence of speaking in new tongues."
Thus, we see how wrong attitudes or a negative confession concerning speaking in tongues present an insurmountable obstacle to receiving the baptism in the Spirit. They are also major hindrances to receiving freedom in the spirit and fluency in tongues. It is imperative to keep in mind that one cannot rise above the level of his confession. Your condition and experience tend to parallel your attitude and confession toward them.
2. Reliance upon feelings
It is interesting how often we encounter Christians who tell us that they have received the baptism in the Spirit with the evidence of new tongues, but that they have not continued to pray regularly in the Spirit after their initial experience. Often they confide that the reason for their failure is due to the fact that they seldom "feel the anointing" when they attempt to do so, and that they do not wish to do anything "in the flesh."
"I had a wonderful anointing from the Lord the night I received the Holy Spirit," a man once said to me, "but I have not continued to pray regularly in the Spirit because I seldom feel the same anointing. I thought the anointing to speak in tongues remained with us when we received the baptism. Why is it that I only experience this occasionally?"
Of course, it is only natural that we would feel the anointing of the Spirit initially at our baptism when we begin to speak in new tongues, and this anointing often stays with us for some time afterward. However, the time will eventually come, after one has received the baptism, when the initial anointing will diminish and it will not always be present when praying in tongues. Moreover, one should not always expect to "feel" an anointing before praying in the Spirit, inasmuch as speaking in tongues is, without exception, an act of faith, and has absolutely nothing to do with how one feels.
Although an anointing may at times accompany prayer in the Spirit, it is essential that we understand that the experience of speaking in tongues is always initiated by an act of faith on our part in precisely the same manner in which we initially received the baptism in the Spirit (Galatians 3:2,14, "by faith").
We are admonished several times in Scripture to pray in the Spirit as this is the means by which we edify ourselves, worship God, and minister on behalf of others (I Corinthians 14:2,4; Acts 10:46; Ephesians 6:18). Paul speaks of praying "in the Spirit" and praying "with the understanding" (I Corinthians 14:15). Every Christian uses prayer with the understanding to strengthen himself and to pray for his and others' needs, as well as for praising and worshipping God. He certainly does not wait until he "feels' an anointing before praying in English for these purposes. How much more then should he not wait upon some "feeling" before praying in the Spirit, especially in view of the fact that God has given him specific assurance that such prayer is always effective (Romans 8:26-27), and is the means of spiritually edifying himself (I Corinthians 14:2,4).
Effective prayer has nothing to do with how one feels when he prays; it has only to do with whether or not he prays in faith. Likewise, edification is not based upon feelings or other sense evidence. When one edifies himself he spiritually strengthens the inner man, and he builds up his faith (Jude 20).
In one instance, a woman had actually received the baptism in the Holy Spirit; yet she had come to doubt her experience because she had never been taught the difference between edification and feeling.
"I had prayer several years ago to receive the Holy Spirit," she confided to me. "But I did not feel anything, although I began to speak some strange words which others told me were new tongues. I can still speak this way, but I don't feel a thing, so I am not edified."
Like many, she was confusing edification with feeling. Edification does not mean "feeling edified." It is not an emotion or an anointing. Edification is a deep work of the Holy Spirit, whereby our inner man is strengthened spiritually, and our faith built up as we pray in the Spirit.
3. Confusion between the "sign" and the "gift" of tongues
Occasionally we find that some Christians do not continue to speak in tongues after the initial experience because they do not realize that tongues as the evidence of the baptism is not the same as the charismatic gift of tongues.
"I spoke in new tongues at the time of my baptism in the Holy Spirit," a Christian said to me one day. "However, I haven't continued to do so, because the Lord hasn't given me the gift of tongues. Doesn't Paul say in I Corinthians 12:30 that all do not speak with tongues?"
"We must recognize that speaking in tongues as the evidence of our baptism in the Spirit is not the same as the charismatic gift of tongues," I replied. "Every Spirit-filled believer can pray in the Spirit at any time he wishes if he will lift up his voice and speak in faith and intercession.
"However, this is but one language or tongue, and is to be used for the believer's personal devotions; whereas the gift of tongues is one of the nine charismatic gifts of the Spirit and consists of many tongues or languages ('divers kinds of tongues,' I Corinthians 12:10), which are for the purpose of ministering to the Body of Christ. It is in reference to these charismatic gifts that Paul asks: '...are all workers of miracles? have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?" (I Corinthians 12:29-30).
"Just as every Spirit-filled believer can pray for the sick (Mark 16:16-18), but not all have the charismatic gift of healing, so too every Christian who is baptized in the Spirit can pray with the devotional tongue which he received at the time of his baptism. However, not all have the charismatic ministry gift of divers kinds of tongues."
4. Occult bondage
When Christians who desire the baptism in the Holy Spirit seem unable to receive this experience, or those who have received the baptism can speak only a few words in tongues, often it is the result of some form of occult involvement.
The Scriptures show that participation or involvement in any of the following occult practices, whether done innocently or not, opens the door to oppression or bondage by the powers of darkness: ESP, telepathy, water divining, magic healing or charming, hypnosis, astrology (horoscope), consulting fortune tellers, mediums, or the ouija board, as well as attendance at seances or false religious cults (e.g. Spiritualists, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Scientists, etc.)
We have found that occult involvement invariably affects the participant adversely, frequently causing serious damage to one's spiritual life and faith. One of the most significant ways in which the adverse effects and influence of the powers of darkness become apparent is in a Christian's inability to receive the baptism in the Holy Spirit, or his failure to experience real freedom to pray in the Spirit if he has received the baptism. Liberation from occult bondage is the only solution.
Without exception, occult involvement is condemned by God in the Scriptures. Such practices are an abomination to Him and are under His curse (Deuteronomy 18:9-12; I Chronicles 10:13-14; Leviticus 19:31; Galatians 5:19-21; Revelation 21:8).
For those who experience difficulty concerning receiving the baptism in the Holy Spirit, or who lack the freedom they desire for speaking in tongues, and who know of past occult involvement of any kind, liberation from occult bondage will involve two steps:
a. Confession of occult sins
In Jesus' Name, confess as sin all your occult involvement which you can remember. In case of occult involvement, which you cannot recall, simply ask God to forgive that which you have forgotten.
b. Renunciation of Satan and the command to depart
This is not to be a prayer or request, but a direct command to Satan for release by the individual seeking deliverance from occult bondage. We have found that it is necessary for the person who gave access to Satan in the first place through occult involvement to command him to depart. In faith, renounce him and all his work in your life, and command him to release you and depart. Be careful to state specifically that he must release you from all effects of occult bondage, since that involvement is the specific reason he has you bound.
Accept your liberation, and exercise your faith at once by asking for and receiving the baptism in the Spirit (Luke 11:13); or, if it is freedom in tongues you desire, by speaking forth in faith what the Spirit gives you now that you are free from your hindrances. Do not necessarily look for some "feeling" as evidence of your liberation, or you will allow the enemy to defeat you. Continue to confess and act your faith and Satan's hold will be broken. Remember, a negative attitude or a confession of doubt will be used by Satan to defeat you, for the Scriptures state, "according to your faith be it unto you" (Matthew 9:29; cf. 8:13).
Confess in faith that you will speak in new tongues; then act your faith and it will happen according to your faith. (For complete and detailed information on this important subject see my book Angels of Light? or my tract Occult Oppression and Bondage: How to be set FREE!).
5. Lack of understanding of the purpose and value of speaking in tongues
Perhaps the greatest hindrance to the continuation of speaking in tongues on the part of many Christians results from the simple fact that they have never been taught that they should pray regularly in the Spirit. The next chapter is devoted to showing the purpose and value of speaking in tongues, for it is the Spirit-filled believer's ministry of prayer in the Spirit which is the primary emphasis of this book.
CHAPTER 2
Why Speak in Tongues?
The Christian's Three-fold Ministry in Tongues
The purpose of this chapter is to enable those who have received the baptism in the Holy Spirit to understand why they should continue to pray in the Spirit regularly each day. Many charismatic believers do not continue to pray in tongues because they have never been informed that they should, thinking that speaking in tongues was merely the evidence that they had been baptized in the Spirit. Because of this they have not only missed many spiritual blessings which accompany the glorious release of the spirit that praying in tongues gives, but they have also failed to fulfill the charismatic ministry that God has provided them through their baptism in the Spirit.
Every Spirit-filled believer, as a consequence of his baptism in the Holy Spirit and his ability to pray in tongues, has been supernaturally endowed with a three-fold charismatic ministry of prayer in the Spirit. This ministry involves: personal ministry for oneself, devotional ministry to God, and an extended ministry on behalf of others.
1. Personal ministry in tongues for oneself<p> The importance of personal ministry to oneself through prayer in the Spirit cannot be overemphasized, inasmuch as God has, by this means, provided us with the super natural ability to minister to ourselves spiritually as often as we desire. Through praying in tongues the believer is able to minister divine strength and rest to his own spirit, increase his faith, and intercede in the Spirit on his own behalf. In fact, there are three specific areas where prayer in the Spirit enables the charismatic believer to minister to himself.
A. Self-edification
He that speaketh in a tongue edifieth himself I Corinthians 14:4.
Self-edification is an essential ministry which God has provided for the Spirit-filled Christian through his ability to pray in the Spirit. Certainly he can also be edified through reading God's Word and by prayer with the understanding, but the personal ministry in tongues has been ordained by God to accomplish a spiritual work in the Christian which is impossible by any other means.
Some Christians without the charismatic experience, and because of erroneous teaching on the subject, will occasionally raise the objection that Paul seems to emphasize the value of prophecy over speaking in tongues in I Corinthians 14. On the contrary, with regard to per- sonal ministry to oneself, the Scriptures show that speaking in tongues is more essential to the believer's edification than prophecy (I Corinthians 14:2,4,14-15,18; Jude 20).
It is only with reference to our ministry to the church that the Apostle stresses the obvious advantage of prophesying over speaking in tongues without interpretation, because of the need for the Body of Christ to understand what is being said by the Spirit (note I Corinthians 14:4-5,19,28, "in the church"). However, the Apostle carefully points out that if the tongues which are spoken are also interpreted, then tongues are equivalent to prophecy and serve the same function (14:5,13,27).
As any unprejudiced reader can see, the Scriptures clearly show that prophecy edifies the church, and through tongues the believer edifies himself. With regard to personal ministry to oneself, praying in the Spirit is the divinely ordained means by which the believer edifies himself.
Paul indicates in I Corinthians 14:2,4,14-15 that when he prayed in tongues it was his spirit, not his intellect, which prayed to God. The Lord knows that, just as your body needs food to be strengthened and your mind needs to be encouraged by the Word and prayer, so too your spirit needs to be edified or strengthened by praying in the Spirit each day. This is precisely what Spirit-filled Christians are admonished to do in Jude 20. You are encouraged to pray in the Spirit regularly, for in so doing God states that you are "building up yourself on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost."
Self-edification through praying in tongues is a necessary important ministry which God has provided for thebeliever that praying with the understanding or intellect cannot give. It is the most direct and effective means whereby the inner man is strengthened spiritually, and the believer's faith is built up to enable him to endure trial, resist Satan, overcome temptation, and faithfully fulfill his place in the Body of Christ.
The Scriptures show us that although faith cometh by hearing the word (Romans 10;17), it is strengthened and increased by "praying in the Holy Ghost" (Jude 20; I Corinthians 14:4). Regular and consistent prayer in the Spirit is the primary means by which the deep, inward work of the Holy Spirit is effected in the believer. Without question many of the trials which have overwhelmed you, and the temptations which you failed to resist successfully, as well as the fear, worry, and anxiety which have oppressed you, are directly related to your neglect of regular, daily prayer in the Spirit. If, therefore, you desire to be strong in the faith, and walk in victory over every trail and adverse circumstances, then avail yourself of the supernatural means by which God has made this possible, for "he that speaketh in an unknown* tongue edifieth himself."
B. Spiritual Rest
With stammering lips and another tongue will he speak...This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing:... --Isaiah 28:11-12.
God has provided a spiritual rest for the believer which cannot be obtained by any means other than praying in the Spirit. The Apostle Paul shows in I Corinthians 14:21-22 that the "rest" of which God speaks in Isaiah 28:11-12 is with reference to speaking in tongues. When the Spirit-filled believer faces trial and adversity; when he is tempted to doubt and worry; when he is tempted to panic during some crisis or emergency; when problems seem as if they are about to overwhelm him; when, in his warfare with the forces of darkness, he finds himself weary or discouraged; he can minister to himself through the Spirit and enter into a place of spiritual rest and victory which is unknown to those without the baptism in the Holy Spirit.
Through the baptism in the Spirit, God has provided a supernatural rest of the believer. The contemporary church's neglect of the experience of the baptism in the Holy Spirit, and its unwarranted opposition to speaking in tongues, will help to explain why the offices of so many pastors and psychiatrists are filled with Christians who are desperately crying out for help with serious problems, or for deliverance from fears, worries, and anxieties, as well as from habits, addictions, and obsessions of every kind.
*The term unknown does not occur in the original, but was added by the translators. These are true languages (although unknown to the speaker) which the Spirit-filed believer speaks supernaturally; they are recognizable as such by those who speak any of these particular languages or tongues, as Acts 2:6,11; 10:46 clearly indicate.
Innumerable Christians find themselves spiritually unfruitful, confused, and frustrated. Why is this? It is the result of the sin of neglect of the Holy Spirit. The church has made the "Blessed Comforter" a doctrine in its creed, instead of a personal experience, which Christ insisted the believer must receive if he is to be spiritually strong and fruitful, and victorious over the powers of darkness (John 14:12-26; Acts 1:4-8; 2:1-4; Mark 16:16-18; I Corinthians 12; 140.
The institutional church spends a good deal of time trying to defend its unscriptural position that a Christian receives the baptism in the Holy Spirit (automatically and inevitably and without tongues) at the time of his conversion, and that the baptism is not a definite spiritual experience subsequent to salvation.
It contends, moreover, that speaking in tongues is not for this dispensation, completely ignoring the plain fact that the Scriptures teach to the contrary (Isaiah 28:11-12 Mark 16:17; Acts 2:1-4 with 38-39; Romans 8:26-27; I Corinthians 12:1ff.; 14:1-5,27-28,39; Ephesians 6:18; Jude 20).
What God intends for us to see in these passages goes completely beyond all pety arguments as to whether or not Christians today can have the baptism of the Holy Spirit without speaking in tongues, for He stresses here the essential need for Christians to speak in tongues. It is to be the means by which the believer enters into spiritual "rest," witnesses effectively, making intercession on behalf of himself and others, worships God in the Spirit, and builds himself up in the faith.
God has provided a "rest" for the believer so that when he faces weariness, sickness, and trial, when he is tempted to doubt, fear, or panic in an emergency, when emotional stress or problems tend to overwhelm him, he can minister to himself by praying in the Spirit. The obvious importance of this cannot be gainsaid.
In one instance with which I am personally acquainted, the baptism in the Holy Spirit and the ability to pray in tongues enabled a grief-stricken wife and mother to endure the shock of a traumatic experience which was so severe that at first it almost drove her to insanity. Through this tragic experience she learned the value and purpose of praying in tongues, and was able to enter into a spiritual place of rest which praying with the intellect did not give and could not provide.
She related to us one evening, "My husband's recent death from cancer, after a prolonged illness, left me with the care of our son and daughter. While still recovering from my bereavement, I experienced another loss even more tragic. Returning home from church one evening, I failed to see my twelve year old son, who had stayed home that night. A short time later I opened the closet door and was horrified to find him hanging there strangled to death. (Without going into details, she related how this was without doubt an accident).
"The shock, coming so soon after my husband's death, nearly drove me out of my mind for a while. However, I was able to remain relatively calm during the funeral, after which I felt compelled to excuse myself and get away from my relatives who were with me at home. All this pent-up grief and pain had to come out, and I knew that it was going to be released through the Spirit. Realizing my relatives would not understand if I began praying or travailing in tongues, and would probably think I was beside myself with grief, I left the house so I could be alone. As I walked and prayed in the Spirit, all my pent-up troubles and grief poured forth from my lips in other tongues as my spirit sought relief from this great burden.
"I continued walking and praying for some time, while all my pain and grief poured out as a great flood in other tongues. Then, after a while, I began to experience a great peace and assurance, and found that I was being strengthened spiritually. As I prayed in tongues, my heart commenced to rejoice and praise the Lord to such an extent that I had to cover my face with a scarf upon entering the house for fear that my relatives would think that I had lost my mind to find me rejoicing at such a time as this."
This illustrates perfectly how, through prayer in the Spirit, a Spirit-filled believer was able to enter into the spiritual rest which God has provided for the charismatic Christian. God has made this supernatural rest available through the experience of the baptism in the Holy Spirit; and that Christian is poor indeed who, because of pride of wrong teaching on the matter, allows Satan to rob him of the baptism in the Spirit, and this personal ministry to himself through prayer in the Spirit. Churches are filled with people who have failed to enter into their rest for the same reason Israel failed to enter into her rest--unbelief (Hebrews 3:18; I Corinthians 14:21).
Multitudes of Christians, because of their rejection of the baptism of the Spirit, will never know the spiritual rest that charismatic Christians may experience, for example, in time of trial, and temptation, or when some crisis confronts them, or when their hearts are burdened or almost overwhelmed with grief. There are times when the Spirit-filled Christian cannot pray as he ought with the intellect because he is undergoing a physical attack. Satan invariably suggests the worst about the condition, but as the Christian prays in the Spirit, his mind is free from the enemy's attempts to assault with doubts and fears.
Frequently, when traveling on a plane or train with others who are drinking and smoking, and the air is filled with worldly conversation so that it is almost impossible to concentrate upon spiritual things in order to pray with the understanding, the Spirit-filled believer finds that he can close his eyes to all these distraction and relax as he enters into a spiritual rest by praying in the Spirit. When he is tired in both mind and body, and too weary to concentrate, the charismatic believer can pray with his spirit, for there is no weariness or reluctance in the Spirit. This is the significance of Jesus' words to His disciples who had fallen asleep when He had asked them to watch and pray, saying, "the spirit in indeed willing, but the flesh is weak" (Matthew 26:41).
In such instances as these, as well as others, those without the baptism in the Holy Spirit, who pray only withthe mind, or who pray when the circumstances are favorable generally cannot pray, and are unable to enter into rest. Many times we have had the privilege of seeing those who were confused and bewildered, or depressed and defeated, immediately transformed into radiant, joyful Christians upon receiving the baptism in the Holy Spirit and entering into this glorious spiritual rest in the Lord as they began to speak in tongues. Truly, "this is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing" (Isaiah 28:12).
C. Personal Intercession
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities:for we know not what we should pray for as we ought:but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered, And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. Romans 8:26-27.
Certainly there are matters about which we should pray with the understanding; however, Spirit-filled Christians have been endowed with the ability to make supernatural intercession on their behalf in a manner that is always effective. The above text informs us that as we pray in the Spirit the Holy Spirit is making intercession for us according to the will of God; thus, prayer in the Spirit should always take precedence over praying with the intellect.
The Spirit's intercession is always effective on our behalf because it is in perfect harmony with God's will; so, we should pray in the Spirit about our needs, "for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered."
This does not mean that the Holy Spirit does our praying for us, but that He inspires our utterance in tongues with effective intercession. The Greek term signifies "inexpressible groaning or sighing." It is prayer in the Spirit which cannot be uttered in articulate speech but consists of inspired utterance from the Spirit through us to God on our behalf.
Sometimes even when we think that we know how to pray about some situation or need as we ought, actually we may be asking God to do what is contrary to His will and purpose for us, as we do not always know all the circumstances involved. At best we know only in part; we know only what little we have seen, read about, or learned in school and by experience, and this is extremely limited. We cannot know anything which lies outside our narrow and restricted sphere of learning and experience. For this reason prayer with the mind or intellect is limited only to that which we know--which is very little compared to all that we do not know--even about ourselves.
Thus, when we pray in tongues, even that which we do not know about is being dealt with, and dealt with perfectly according to the will of God. Because of this, and in view of the fact that prayer in the Spirit is always effective, I have found in my own experience that it is much more rewarding if I pray in the Spirit about eightyfive percent of the time, limiting prayer with the mind to the remainder. The importance of prayer in the Spirit cannot be overemphasized when considered in terms of spiritual power and effectiveness.*
Because of out limited knowledge, we sometimes do not know how to pray about certain situations as we ought. This has been demonstrated time and again to me. In one instance, God gave me a dream in which I saw my daughters lying in caskets. I was immediately awakened, and without understanding the significance of this, I began to pray in the Spirit for them. A short time later they were in a serious automobile accident. They could have easily been killed, but through this intercession in the Spirit they were miraculously preserved.
*We are not referring in this discussion to the prayer of faith regarding the promises of God, since in such cases God has already revealed His will to us in the matter through His Word. The prayer of faith, when we know God's will, is offered with the understanding or mind, specifically claiming what we need in simple faith (Matthew 7: 7-8; Mark 11;24; I John 5:14-15).
In another instance, prayer in the Spirit prepared me spiritually for a conflict that lay ahead, of which I was unaware at the time. Often when we pray in the Spirit, matters about which we do not know are dealt with as the Holy spirit intercedes for us according to the will of God. I had been asked to consider speaking in a denominational church on the present-day charismatic revival, telling the people about the baptism in the Spirit, speaking in tongues, and the miraculous things we were witnessing today. The church, of course, followed the general misconception that such things are not valid for this age.
I said that I would be willing to come and relate my experience, but I had no interest in going to some denominational church merely to debate these matters. However, if they were sincerely interested, I would come. They assured me that this would be the case.
Because of my full speaking schedule, my teaching ministry is generally limited to charismatic Christians who are eager to be taught the deeper truths and end-time message. Since this was to be a meeting in a denominational church telling them of things which they had been taught were not valid for today, I did not know how to pray as I ought; hence, I prayed in the Spirit concerning the meeting. It was good that I did in view of what transpired.
I had some of the young people from our church speak first; and then, after giving my testimony concerning the charismatic revival today, I was informed that I was not the only speaker scheduled, but that the leaders of the church had, contrary to their promise, asked a denominational speaker to come and attempt to refute all that I had said. The meeting was then to be concluded with a debate based upon questions from the audience. Once, again I saw the value of having prayed in the Spirit, since I could not have known how to pray as I ought about circumstances hidden from me. Instead of reacting as one normally might have done upon learning of their deceit, and becoming irritated or argumentative, or perhaps storming out of the meeting in righteous indignation, the Holy Spirit had spiritually prepared me for this inwardly, enabling me to remain and minister in love to the people during the concluding time of debate.
As a consequence, the people responded to our testimony, as well as to my answers to their questions, some even receiving the baptism in the Holy Spirit! Moreover, they seemed to recognize that our message inspired life and joy, while the arguments of the other speakers had ministered death and unbelief, since his message was merely a restatement of the same old denominational position of unbelief which they had heard all their lives.
When Christians pray with the intellect (and there is a time for this of course) the mind selects the needs to pray about, as well as the words and ideas we wish to express. Sometimes, however, especially in cases of serious problems, trials, or needs, we may miss the real need or not understand the will of God in the matter, and, as a result, pray amiss. Moreover, there are times when God purposely does not let us understand too much about the matter so that we are compelled to pray in the Spirit about it, in order that we do not pray amiss or hinder His purpose in some other way.
Without a doubt I would not have gone to the aforementioned meeting had I known beforehand of their deceit; or if I would have gone, I may have prayed that God would anoint me like Elijah to rebuke their treachery. However, by praying in the Spirit, God prepared me spiritually so that I could minister to them in love, thus enabling Him to fulfill His purpose in this particular situation.
2. Devotional Ministry to God
For he that speaketh in a tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. I Corinthians 14;2
Did you know that God desires for you to minister to Him? In what manner? By adoration, thanksgiving, and praise. He knows the limitations of our finite minds to praise and worship Him effectively with the intellect; thus, He has provided us with supernatural utterance in the Spirit. Every Christian has felt his inadequacy and helplessness to express the praise, thanksgiving, and adoration which well up within his heart.
How many times you have struggled, trying to express with your intellect what you felt in your heart toward the Lord, finally giving up the effort! Sometimes you lament, "Lord, you see what is in my heart, but there just aren't adequate words to express my love and gratitude." This will help to explain why He has given us, through the baptism in the Holy Spirit, the supernatural ability to worship Him in the Spirit by praying in tongues.
No matter how much we may try to communicate our love, gratitude, and praise to God with the intellect, we find that it is impossible for us to express the soul's deepest feelings and emotions in this manner. This is the significance of Wesley's plea in his immortal hymn "O for a Thousand Tongues to Sing My Great Redeemer's Praise." Wesley had experienced the baptism in the Holy Spirit (as did Luther, Moody, Finney, R. A. Torrey, and all the other great spiritual leaders in history), and he refers in his hymn, not to a thousand voices in a church choir singing praises to God, but he is expressing his own desire for such an anointing by the Spirit that he can sing God's praises in a thousand new tongues.
God wants us to minister, not just to others, but also to Him. This is the significance of the statement in Acts 13:2, where we are informed that Paul, with others in the church at Antioch, "ministered to the Lord." The evening in which I received the baptism in the Holy Spirit I began to speak in a beautiful language by the anointing of the Spirit, and continued speaking for about two hours. The remarkable thing was that I was fully aware my utterance in new tongues was praise unto the Lord all this time, although my intellect did not know what language I was speaking.
One of the basic reasons God is pouring out His Spirit today is that He not only wants a church which can pray with power and effectiveness, but one which can also praise Him effectively. Praise through the Spirit is the only way this can be done. Prayer which eliminates praise altogether is not too effective anyway. The prayer of faith will move mountains to be sure (Mark 11:23), but praise will move God (II Chronicles 20:21-24)
The devil will flee if you command him: he will also flee if you praise God! In fact, if you will begin to praise God more, you will find that you will have to rebuke the devil less. God will answer the prayer of faith as He promises (Mark 11:24), but praise will often hasten the answer. A child who asks a parent to meet some need will generally receive what he needs, but the child who mixes some real love and thanksgiving with his request will usually get his answer sooner.
The contemporary church has largely lost its power and effectiveness because it no longer accepts the validity of the baptism in the Spirit and speaking in tongues; and, as a consequence, it not longer has the anointing and spirit of praise. One of the surest ways for a church to lose both its power and spiritual effectiveness is to allow Satan to quench the spirit of praise. Both Israel and the early church knew the secret of effectiveness and victory over Satan--praising the Lord!
The term "Praise" and the command to "praise the Lord" occur over 200 times in the Scriptures. Why? God tells us in Psalm 50:23: "Whoso offereth praise glorifeth me." Every Christian believes that he will praise the Lord in the age to come, but God wants to hear it now. Thus, the Psalmist declares: "Praise ye the Lord, Praise the Lord, O my soul. WHILE I LIVE will I praise the Lord: I will sing praises unto my God WHILE I HAVE ANY BEING" (Psalm 146:1-2).
Some Christians without the baptism contend that they believe in praising God, but that they do so silently in the heart. However, the Scriptures inform us that "out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh." Thus, if there is true praise in the heart, then it will have to come out of the mouth for all the commands in Scripture are for the vocal expression of praise. God cannot be glorified by so-called "silent praise" any more than a sinner could be saved by a "silent witness."
Anyone should be able to see that the term "silent praise" is a contradiction. The Scriptures tell us that we are to come into God's presence with a joyful noise of praise (Psalm 100;98:4f.); with the clapping of hands (Psalm 47:1); and that we are to do this at all times (Psalm 34:1; 35:28; Acts 2:46-47; Hebrews 13:15).
God wants us to praise Him simply because we love Him; we are to praise Him as an end in itself--not as a means to an end. God is to be praised simply because He is God and deserves to be praised, and not merely because we need something from Him, such as healing, financial help, or deliverance from some problem or trial. Although we should praise Him in anticipation of His provision for such needs nevertheless, if we limit our praise to such times we may find that our needs may not be met.
God will not let us use Him as a celestial Santa Claus. The highest form of praise stems from the purest motives, as can be seen, for example, in the praise of thePsalmist, who exclaims, "Whom have I in heaven but thee? and there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee" (Psalm 73:25).
God is to be praised for His own sake; He Himself, being God, is sufficient reason for praising Him. Any other reason for which you praise Him--for healing, health salvation, deliverance or for temporal blessing--is simply to be the result of your gratitude for God Himself. He loves His children for their own sake; He needs no reason for loving you other than the fact that you are His child.
This is likewise to be the basis of your love and praise of Him. Your praise is to be free of any selfish motive. You should not wait until the car is bogged down in the mud or snow, or until you are seriously ill, or in desperate need of something. You should praise God at all times as sufficient end in itself, because He deserves your praise and because you love Him for His own sake.
Because of the limitation of the finite mind and intellect, God has given unto His children the supernatural ability to minister unto Him in worship and praise through prayer in the Spirit; for only in this way can the deepest purest feelings, and emotions of the soul be expressed. Those Christians who reject speaking in tongues because they feel that there may be some stigma associated with this experience will certainly never be able to minister to God as He expects. We are informed in Acts 10:46 that it was through this means that the Gentiles were also able to minister to God, "For they heard them speak with tongues, and MAGNIFY GOD" (cf. Acts 2:11; I Corinthians 14:2).
3. Ministry on Behalf of Others
Why speak in tongues? Because, through prayer in the Spirit we are able to fulfill our responsibility of ministry to others. Praying in tongues is not, as those without the baptism sometimes suppose, merely some dubious exercise for personal edification. It is dispensable if the believer is to be effective in his ministry on behalf of the Body of Christ, as well as to the unsaved. This ministry includes intercession, edification, and occasionally supernatural witness.
A. Spiritual Intercession
Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints. Ephesians 6:18
Praying in the Spirit is the means by which the Spirit- filled believer intercedes for himself (Romans 8:26-27). But here in Ephesians 6:18 we see that praying in the Spirit is also a supernatural ministry of intercession on behalf of other saints. The importance of intercession in the Spirit on behalf of others cannot be emphasized too strongly. Just as we see in Romans 8:26-27, that often we do not know how to pray for our own needs as we ought, and the Spirit must make intercession for us, so it is with regard to our prayers on behalf of others. However, as we in faith commit them to the Lord and pray for them in the Spirit, the Holy Spirit makes intercession on their behalf through us according to the will of God. This does not, of course, eliminate all need of prayer with the understanding on behalf of others, but is does insure effective intercession for them, especially in times of trial and need.
An accident was related to me one evening where I was ministering, which illustrates how prayer in the Spirit can result in effective intercession on another's behalf. The friend of a Spirit-filled Christian woman had incurred a serious head injury as the result of an automobile accident and was confined to her bed. Because of her friend's serious condition, she did not know how to pray for her as she ought. Therefore, she began to pray for her in tongues, and continued interceding for her for a number of hours in the Spirit.
"Imagine my surprise," she said, "when shortly thereafter I answered a knock at the door, to find this same individual for whom I was praying standing before me." "Have you been praying for me? she inquired. "Why, yes, as a matter of fact I have," she replied. "Well, I thought so, for as I lay there I felt something lift from me, and I am much better as a result!"
They talked together for a while, and then, as she left, the Spirit-filled woman gave her one of my books on faith, and recommended that she read it. Later, as she was reading the chapter on "How to Receive the Holy Spirit," she was filled with the Spirit and suddenly began to speak in tongues! Clearly prayer with the understanding as such a time would, at best, have been limited to the injured person's physical need, as intercession on her behalf for the infilling of the Spirit was the remotest thing from her mind. As we pray in the Spirit for other saints, needs that we do not know about, and which are often more important than those for which we pray, are also dealt with effectively.
The ministry of intercession is of extreme importance, for this is the ministry Jesus chose when He ascended to the right hand of God (Hebrews 7:20-25). By virtue of the baptism in the Spirit and praying in tongues this ministry can also be ours (Ephesians 6:18). As we pray in the Spirit regularly each day, we may not always be aware of all those for whom the Spirit may be interceding, nor what the need may be for which we are praying. However, this is of no real consequence, as prayer in the Spirit bypasses the intellect anyway.
At such times we may be interceding for a loved one who has some real personal problem and is in need of special prayer; we may be interceding for the pastor who is undergoing some difficult trial; it may be intercession for the President or government leaders who are facing a serious crisis and need to make the correct decision; or, as frequently happens, it may be in behalf of someone who is in need of God's help, whom He plans to send to you, or you to them in order to fulfill that need.
I recall an instance when a Spirit-filled missionary was used this way. She said she had been speaking in several churches in another country. One night after the service she went to bed, but was awakened later and felt compelled to pray in the Spirit. This lasted several hours during which time she cried out for the Lord to show what this meant, but without success.
In the morning a young Christian man who had heard her speak the night before came to ask for her help about a matter over which he could not gain the victory. She informed him that not even a Christian could have complete victory without the baptism in the Holy Spirit, and that this was the answer to his need. Upon hearing this, he asked for prayer to receive the Spirit. As he began to pray in new tongues and rejoice in the Lord, God spoke directly to the missionary, saying, "This is the reason for the battle last night!" Then it was that she understood the meaning of the texts concerning the believer's intercession on behalf of the saints according to the will of God.
Since she had not known the young man or his need, she could scarcely have prayed for him with her understanding. However, the Spirit knew him and his need. As she yielded in prayer, the Holy Spirit was able to pray effectively through her on behalf of the young man, and then send him to her to receive the fulfillment of his need. As she yielded in prayer, the Holy Spirit was able to pray effectively through her on behalf of the young man, and then send him to her to receive the fulfillment of his need. Again, a day later an evangelist sought her out with the same need, and he too received the Holy Spirit as a consequence of her time of intercession for the unknown needs of others, especially in such instances where we do not even know for whom we are making intercession; but the Spirit knows all things, and when we pray in tongues, even that which we do not know is dealt with.
B. Edification of the Body of Christ
Forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church. Wherefore let him that speaketh in a tongue pray that he may interpret. I Corinthians 14:12-13
By prayer in the Spirit men are enabled to speak supernaturally to God (I Corinthians 14:2); but the ability to speak in tongues also enables God to speak supernaturally to men. Edification of oneself by the devotional use of tongues is a great personal blessing and an important ministry on our own behalf, but by the use of the gift of tongues the believer becomes a minister to the whole Body of Christ. Through the exercise of tongues and the companion gift of interpretation, the Spirit is able to impart revelation to the church for its edification and comfort.
The gift of tongues is quite prevalent today, as it was in Corinth in apostlic times. Many charismatic Christians can speak with divers kinds of tongues (I Corinthians 12:10), not being limited to the single devotional language which is the sign of the baptism. They can and should desire to use this gift for the edification of the church (I Corinthans 14;12-13, 26-27). According to I Corinthians 12:7, every Spirit-filled believer has been given some gift or manifestation of the Spirit. God has set each member in the Body for the purpose of ministering to the rest of the church (12:18-31); therefore, each member must make certain that he does not neglect his gift (I Timothy 4:14), but that he stirs up the gift of God (II Timothy 1:6, and yields himself to the Spirit for the manifestation of the gift. The gifts of supernatural utterance (prophecy, tongues, and interpretation) have been set in the church for its edification and should never be neglected nor forbidden (I Corinthians 12:10,28,31; 14;5,12-13,18,26-27,39; I Thessalonians 5;19).
God did not set any useless or unnecessary gifts in the church. Where the utterance gifts are neglected or discouraged, that body of believers suffers as a result. The preaching of the Word often lacks power and anointing, and there is an absence of real joy and freedom in the praise and worship.
C. A Supernatural Sign to Unbelievers
In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not. I Corinthians 14:21-22
Occasionally, speaking in tongues becomes a supernatural sign to unbelievers as we see, for instance, on the day of Pentecost when the unbelieving Jews heard the disciples speaking in tongues and asked: "What meaneth this?" As a direct result of the interest which was aroused because of their hearing this supernatural utterance, three thousand were converted. There are numerous instances in the present-day outpouring of the Spirit in which God has used supernatural utterance in tongues to convince unbelievers of the truth. John Sherrill, for example, cites some examples of this fact in his widely read book, They Speak With Other Tongues.
I recall several years ago when a certain man and woman were saved and baptized in the Spirit in a meeting where I was speaking. After the service they conferred with me about their concern for the salvation of their son who had been with them on the previous Sunday. They said that he had violently opposed my message on the presentday charismatic revival and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. I had also observed this resistance as I preached. However, we agreed in prayer for his salvation (Matthew 18:19). Two days later the young man asked if I would come to see him about an important matter. Upon my arrival I saw at once that a great change had taken place, for he was radiant and filled with joy.
"Let me tell you what happened," he exclaimed. "I was alone in my room last night when the Lord began to deal with me about my spiritual condition, convicting me of my sins. As a result, I have repented and given my heart to Jesus!"
"Well, praise the Lord," I replied, inwardly thanking God for such a quick manifestation of the answer to our prayer of faith in his behalf. And then what he said next was even more remarkable, for it revealed the unusual manner in which God had been able to reach him with the truth, although he had rejected the same Word when I had preached it the previous Sunday.
"The thing that really convinced me that there is something to all this," he continued, "is not only the wonderful change it has made in my Mother's personality, but it was hearing her speak in new tongues. Why, she can't even speak grammatically correct English, but you should hear her speak Hebrew by the Spirit!" (I had informed her that I had recognized her new tongue as Hebrew, as I used to teach Hebrew in the seminary).
Then looking directly at me, he said: "The reason that I asked you to come see me is that I too want to receive this experience which my mother and father have. Will you pray for me to receive the baptism in the Holy Spirit?"
As I prayed for him, he began to speak in new tongues, worshipping the Lord as the Spirit gave him utterance. He had been saved and filled with the Spirit as a direct result of seeing the manifestation of the sign of tongues, which had been the means of convincing him of the truth-- "Wherefore tongues are for a sign...to them that believe not." Spirit-filled Christians, therefore, should not be reticent about speaking in tongues in public services when unbelievers or non-charismatic Christians are present, if the Spirit so moves them. Not infrequently this sign has been used by the Spirit to convict the lost, as well as convince the unlearned concerning the present-day charismatic outpouring of the Spirit.
With regard to the latter, recently I prayed for a young woman to receive the baptism in the Holy Spirit where I was speaking, and she immediately began to speak in new tongues. A woman in the audience came up to her and said: "Here is my card. If you ever doubt that you spoke a true language by the Spirit, call me and I will tell you that I heard you speaking in Spanish, as I have studied the language. I have been on the fence about the baptism in the Holy Spirit, thinking perhaps there was nothing to it really, and that so-called tongues were just emotional gibberish--but let me tell you I am now fully convinced that all this is genuine!" The sign of tongues is still being used by the Spirit to convict the lost and convince the gainsayers of the validity of a supernatural, charismatic Christianity for this dispensation.
CHAPTER 3
How to Receive the Baptism in the Holy Spirit
The baptism in the Holy Spirit is not an experience that one must seek and tarry for months or years to receive. It is to be received by faith (Galatians 3:2,14). Countless hundreds have received the baptism in the Spirit by following the simple steps outlined below.
• 1. Accept the promise of the Holy Spirit on the basis of the promise in the Word of God. Acts 2:38-39.
• 2. Ask for the baptism in the Holy Spirit and expect to receive. Luke 11:9-13; MATTHEW 7:8.
• 3. Confess that you have received the Holy Spirit after you ask. Mark 11:24. For example, you may pray: "Father, on the authority of your promise, I now ask for, and by faith receive, the baptism in the Holy Spirit--in Jesus' Name."
• 4. Act on your confession of faith. James 2:17.
The Scriptural evidence of having received the baptism in the Holy Spirit is the sign of speaking with a new tongue as the Spirit gives you the words to utter (Acts 2:4; 10:44-46; 19:1-6; Mark 16:17). In Acts 2:4 we are informed that they "began to speak with other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance." The Spirit gives you the utterance, but you must do the uttering or speaking. Determine not to speak a word of English at this time (as you cannot speak two languages at once). Therefore, do not try to praise God with the understanding, but lift up the sound of your voice and the Holy Spirit will begin to give you phrases and words supernaturally in other tongues.
Do not be concerned about, "what to say," as the Holy Spirit language does not come from the mind or intellect, but through the spirit as the Holy Spirit anoints you to speak what He gives. In faith, you must put your vocal or speech faculties into operation as you do in speaking any lang- uage. However, in this case, it is the Holy Spirit who will give you the words to speak.
Remember, receiving the Holy Spirit is an act of faith; and this promise is to be appropriated in the same way as all of God's promises are, such as salvation, healing, and so on. Some have failed to receive because they have not understood this fact and were looking first of all for some "feeling," "anointing," or "emotional experience" before they would believe that they had received the baptism. We are to receive the Holy Spirit by faith; and then as we act on our faith, the evidence and assurance will certainly follow.
FAITH MINISTRIES & PUBLICATIONS, tapes, cd's and books of the late Dr. Hobart Freeman




**This was a free online publication/summary of the Book.

musterion
March 29th, 2014, 03:35 AM
Hobart Freeman and his flock took the word-faith voodoo to its logical conclusion and actually tried to live consistently with it, something none of the usual word-faith frauds do. Many foolishly died because of it, eventually including Freeman himself. He was brought up on charges for at least one of the deaths. That's why even at his height of popularity (and he was popular for a time), you NEVER heard his name mentioned on TBN.

Hobart's NYT obit. (http://www.nytimes.com/1984/12/10/obituaries/hobart-freeman-dies-indicted-head-of-a-sect.html)

From here (http://www.ccel.us/churches.ch9.html) (very interesting):


Of greatest significance was Freeman's position on medicine and physicians. He referred to doctors as "medical deities" and claimed that medicines had demonic names and, if taken, opening one up to demonic influence. Members of Faith Assembly were, and still are, strongly discouraged from seeking medical attention for any maladies suffered. As a result, at least ninety persons of Faith Assembly have died of preventable and treatable illnesses. One report indicates that the church has averaged about one preventable death per month since 1978. These deaths include forty-two infants, ten children between the ages of one and seventeen, seven mothers who died of complications related to home births, and numerous adults who suffered illnesses that were inadequately treated.Freeman was one of Satan's wolves - stealing, killing, destroying.

jamie
March 29th, 2014, 04:04 AM
The thousand year rain by Jesus Christ will happen.


Really? Forty days of rain flooded the earth, but I guess a thousand years of rain will cure the drought in California.

However, why on earth would I want to go to heaven? If heaven was so great God wouldn't have refashioned the earth for us.

Some people are never content.

Desert Reign
March 29th, 2014, 05:15 AM
You should key word search heaven in the Bible and see what the aspects are. Does the Kingdom of Heaven have its place inside of you? Unless you are Born again, Baptised in water by immersion in Jesus name(separate event from salvation to be done with scriptural understanding), and receive the Holy Spirit (separate event from salvation. Initial evidence is speaking in tongues) you can not enter in. Those are the three keys to the Kingdom of Heaven and its rule being established in you and you entering into it here and now.

Another poor soul who wants to lay down the law all over again and nullify what Jesus achieved for us on the cross.

And on top of that who wants to waste our time with a thousand words when 5 would have done, thinking that he is doing us a favour by giving us such a generous dollop of his wisdom.

ABMF
March 29th, 2014, 08:02 AM
Really? Forty days of rain flooded the earth, but I guess a thousand years of rain will cure the drought in California.

However, why on earth would I want to go to heaven? If heaven was so great God wouldn't have refashioned the earth for us.

Some people are never content.

AHAH Thanks for catching that reign* THOUSAND year Reign. Corrected.
IF you don't obey God here in this earth and believe in Him who He sent then how will you ever hope to gain entrance to the New Earth is the question.

jamie
March 29th, 2014, 08:28 AM
IF you don't obey God here in this earth and believe in Him who He sent then how will you ever hope to gain entrance to the New Earth is the question.


If I don't obey God by doing what? What must I say or do that will get me a pass to the new earth? And besides that, what's wrong with this earth?

I'm happy where I am and I don't say that casually. I have been from San Diego to Maine and from Seattle to Key West and I am where I want to be.

Ok, I've never been to North Dakota or Vermont but I've seen the other 46 states.

If you have seen this earth why in the world would you want a different one?

ABMF
March 29th, 2014, 08:38 AM
Hobart Freeman and his flock took the word-faith voodoo to its logical conclusion and actually tried to live consistently with it, something none of the usual word-faith frauds do. Many foolishly died because of it, eventually including Freeman himself. He was brought up on charges for at least one of the deaths. That's why even at his height of popularity (and he was popular for a time), you NEVER heard his name mentioned on TBN.

Hobart's NYT obit. (http://www.nytimes.com/1984/12/10/obituaries/hobart-freeman-dies-indicted-head-of-a-sect.html)

From here (http://www.ccel.us/churches.ch9.html) (very interesting):

Freeman was one of Satan's wolves - stealing, killing, destroying.
Lets open with your article. Although I am aware of his short comings(Freeman) his teachings done through the Holy Spirit minus the faults of the man, no one should ever follow a man, are unparalleled and remain unmatched as a person who was a student of the word. He was never a part of the WORD of faith movement. But lets go back to your article shall we? "LEESBURG, Ind., Dec. 9— The Rev. Dr. Hobart Freeman, the leader of the Faith Assembly, died Saturday night at his home. He was 64 years old and had been ill for a month." Well that starts right out with a lie. He would tell others to not be called reverend and was NOT called reverend. Media cant print the truth even if its given to them and people know that, but will jump on the media band wagon when it suits backing their point of view.

"Dr. Freeman declined to grant interviews but was described by the Rev. John J. Davis, a former student who had talked with him, as brilliant and ''a good theologian''.

Brilliant is an understatement, in fact his wisdom and accomplishments surpass everyone on this forum I'm sure. Have you gotten a 4 year degree with straight A's? How about a 6 Year? 8 year? 10? year? Yes Freeman was a straight A student and gave all the credit to God for it because he was a high school drop out and a failed businessman. Oh Yes, and God took care of him and his family the whole time he went to college. College fully paid for by God. No debt. How many languages do you speak? As soon as you reach the level of anointing and accomplishments in Christ that Freeman had? Then maybe you could criticize. When is the last time you laid hands on the verified sick people and had them healed? consistently? But If you ever get there, I doubt you will have the stomach to lie slander and have criticism. You should show respect, because if the media hates you? and your getting dragged into court on charges? You are having happen to you what Jesus Christ said would happen. REJOICE! Don't lay your tongue to God's anointed. Your entering into criticism and the mouth of satan. Why not drag king david's mistakes? THEY WERE WORSE! MUCH WORSE! How about Moses? How about Peter? How about their sins? Let drag their mistakes to the front and print them in the media! Charges brought? Yes. Conviction? What was the outcome? You don't hear about that do you. Mud slinging fest that earned Freeman a big reward! WELL DONE!

IMJerusha
March 29th, 2014, 08:42 AM
If you mean to say that there is no Baptisms plural see also in refutation Hebrews 6. When they believed, Got born again, they did what the apostles told them to do. John 3 Acts 2 Acts 10 and 11, Acts 19 ect. The baptism in the Holy Spirit is a separate event likened unto salvation. Just like Water Baptism is a separate event. The moment you get saved you are not automatically considered water baptised by immersion in Jesus name you have to go through that. Same thing with the baptism in the HOLY Spirit. I do agree that when you get saved you have the Holy Spirit with you. When you get baptised in the Holy Spirit you have Him IN you.

I am of the belief that water baptism, unlike Church of Christ doctrine, is not essential to enter heaven but rather an essential element of public faith, declaration and recognition of Yeshua and His work on the cross as a result of a heart change. In other words, it is an act of obedience. My thoughts in this matter settle on the thief on the cross, a ritually unclean man who did not receive the baptism of water...or at least there is not mention of it. His declaration and acknowledgment of Yeshua from the cross, however, certainly qualified him for heaven by Yeshua's own words. I agree that we have Him in us when we are baptized in Ruach HaKodesh but I don't think it is something we can get but rather something that occurs by the Ruach's desire and design. I believe, as you say, that we always have the Ruach with us just as the Apostles always had Yeshua with them but the baptism of the Ruach is a whole different ballgame. Sometimes I think it might have to do with our readiness for it ie. the house of Cornelius.

chrysostom
March 29th, 2014, 08:44 AM
will you have eternal life?

those promoting eternal suffering may not get that

ABMF
March 29th, 2014, 08:51 AM
If I don't obey God by doing what? What must I say or do that will get me a pass to the new earth? And besides that, what's wrong with this earth?

I'm happy where I am and I don't say that casually. I have been from San Diego to Maine and from Seattle to Key West and I am where I want to be.

Ok, I've never been to North Dakota or Vermont but I've seen the other 46 states.

If you have seen this earth why in the world would you want a different one?

Well, I understand most are sheltered spoiled americans who get to tour around eating and living off if the finest there is. This has seriously made a society of spoiled brats. Tour the third world or second world countries and lands and you may have a point of view change. Contrary to popular opinion there is a LOT wrong with this earth. Even the heaven's (stars and stuff that you can see) are not pure in God's sight. Catch a glimpse of the new heaven and the new earth and you won't want this one as it is!

ABMF
March 29th, 2014, 08:53 AM
will you have eternal life?

those promoting eternal suffering may not get that

The Bible teaches eternal suffering. Those who pervert the Bible and say it doesn't teach eternal suffering are going to risk the eternal punishment.

chrysostom
March 29th, 2014, 08:59 AM
The Bible teaches eternal suffering. Those who pervert the Bible and say it doesn't teach eternal suffering are going to risk the eternal punishment.

doesn't eternal suffering require eternal life?

ABMF
March 29th, 2014, 09:38 AM
doesn't eternal suffering require eternal life?
When a person dies do you think they are not aware or feel and go through the experience of the pain of death of the event of going to the hereafter?
Many after life experiences have been testified of people sharing what happened when they died. Do you not think that God could just take and make a experience of perpetual dying a tormenting experience? You don't think that a person who died horribly, didn't feel the torment and agony and pain of this world before going to the next? and even feel it in between? You don't think that God could create a place where the agony and pain of a horrific death is compared, and name it perpetual death? A place where you never finish dying but are always in death with the pains of death and all its horror constantly around you? Would not Hitler, Satan and many evil people deserve an unending justice? In fact the torment and pain of always being in the pains of death without ever having it be over is horrible. See, here people have the mind set of relief from this life by death. How about in the death of hell, your always in it because there is no reaching a place of life after it, so a person is alway caught in it.
Its called the Second Death because its death unending. Always in the experience of dying loss of life, without ever finishing. Death exists here on this earth and the alive know that well. Still man can not fully understand death, so to how much more with a carnal mind man cannot fully grasp what death is in this life, could stretch to what is meant by it in the next? Many would even agree here on this earth that burning to death being fully conscious is one of THEE worst most painful ways to go (no one here does that in Jesus name), why can't God make that the ultimate reward for those who reject him?

jamie
March 29th, 2014, 09:44 AM
Jesus died a horrible death but he got over it. So it can't be all that bad.

chrysostom
March 29th, 2014, 09:46 AM
When a person dies do you think they are not aware or feel and go through the experience of the pain of death of the event of going to the hereafter?
Many after life experiences have been testified of people sharing what happened when they died. Do you not think that God could just take and make a experience of perpetual dying a tormenting experience? You don't think that a person who died horribly, didn't feel the torment and agony and pain of this world before going to the next? and even feel it in between? You don't think that God could create a place where the agony and pain of a horrific death is compared, and name it perpetual death? A place where you never finish dying but are always in death with the pains of death and all its horror constantly around you? Would not Hitler, Satan and many evil people deserve an unending justice? In fact the torment and pain of always being in the pains of death without ever having it be over is horrible. See, here people have the mind set of relief from this life by death. How about in the death of hell, your always in it because there is no reaching a place of life after it, so a person is alway caught in it.
Its called the Second Death because its death unending. Always in the experience of dying loss of life, without ever finishing. Death exists here on this earth and the alive know that well. Still man can not fully understand death, so to how much more with a carnal mind man cannot fully grasp what death is in this life, could stretch to what is meant by it in the next? Many would even agree here on this earth that burning to death being fully conscious is one of THEE worst most painful ways to go (no one here does that in Jesus name), why can't God make that the ultimate reward for those who reject him?

you are going to have to excuse me
because
death means death
life means life
eternal means eternal
so
as you can see
I have no idea what you are talking about

ABMF
March 29th, 2014, 11:07 AM
you are going to have to excuse me
because
death means death
life means life
eternal means eternal
so
as you can see
I have no idea what you are talking about If you are in your own mind: To you, and your understanding of your mind, cannot comprehend or grasp the things of God. "But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" 1 corinthians 2:14. Don't lean on your own understanding. Proverbs 3. Their is more to God than the English language can grasp. There are some things that you just have to take by faith. Daniel 12:2 and Matthew 25:46 are very clear. Unless you have the mind of Christ, Spiritually minded, a renewed mind, you can not understand the things of God. You can not fully understand scripture for the Words that Jesus Spoke they are Spirit and Life. John 6. You must receive of His Spirit. Unless you have the Holy Spirit indwelling you, you will always struggle to know and understand God.

chrysostom
March 29th, 2014, 11:09 AM
I can't believe this thread is a sticky
we have way too many stickies
and
I don't like to scroll

musterion
March 29th, 2014, 11:59 AM
Freeman's "shortcomings"?

Teaching lies that directly led to the deaths of a hundred of his followers, and himself?

"Shortcomings"?


Brilliant is an understatement, in fact [Freeman's] wisdom and accomplishments surpass everyone on this forum I'm sure. I can't speak for anyone else but I haven't taught anyone in the name of Christ that He'd rather see their kids die needlessly before they're taken to a doctor. But you'd evidently be okay with it if I did, since that's exactly what Freeman did.

Your trolling sub-par.

Ben Masada
March 29th, 2014, 01:42 PM
Jesus died a horrible death but he got over it. So it can't be all that bad.

How could Jesus have got over death with death? Besides, once dead, Logic dictates that one has lost all chances to get over anything.

jamie
March 29th, 2014, 02:35 PM
How could Jesus have got over death with death? Besides, once dead, Logic dictates that one has lost all chances to get over anything.


Where's your proof that the dead don't live again?

Ben Masada
March 29th, 2014, 03:15 PM
Where's your proof that the dead don't live again?

Read Job 7:9; 10:21; II Sam. 12:23; Psalm 49:12; 88:11; Prov. 2:19... and many other quotes but I think these are enough to prove the point.

The wish to live again is an illusion and I am sorry if I had to rain on your parade but the Truth although some times painful cannot be masked.

jamie
March 29th, 2014, 05:14 PM
In the context of nature the dead do not live again. However, God created nature and he has power over nature. Have you heard the story about Jonah? He died and yet lived again.


If a man dies, shall he live again? All the days of my hard service I will wait till my change comes. You shall call and I will answer You - You shall desire the work of Your hands. (Job 14:14-15)


Then the LORD heard the voice of Elijah and the soul of the child came back to him and he revived. And Elijah took the child and brought him down from the upper room into the house and gave him to his mother. And Elijah said, “See, your son lives!”
(1 Kings 17:22-23)

So there is Jonah, Job and a young boy. God can resurrect whomever he chooses.

ABMF
March 29th, 2014, 05:45 PM
Freeman's "shortcomings"?

Teaching lies that directly led to the deaths of a hundred of his followers, and himself?

"Shortcomings"?

I can't speak for anyone else but I haven't taught anyone in the name of Christ that He'd rather see their kids die needlessly before they're taken to a doctor. But you'd evidently be okay with it if I did, since that's exactly what Freeman did.

Your trolling sub-par.
Unless you have heard his teachings first hand and can find the quotes that he used to say anything of what you are accusing then you are wrong. Can you be sure of this? What proof do you present of first hand experience? A third hand re harsh from a secular media source is not an acceptable verification. In fact he never told anyone not to go to the doctor! In fact he stated publicly that if anyone asked him if they should keep taking their pills his reply was YES! And told that PUBLICLY from HIS pulpit so all would know!

IMJerusha
March 29th, 2014, 05:58 PM
Read Job 7:9; 10:21; II Sam. 12:23; Psalm 49:12; 88:11; Prov. 2:19... and many other quotes but I think these are enough to prove the point.

The wish to live again is an illusion and I am sorry if I had to rain on your parade but the Truth although some times painful cannot be masked.

Sure it can, you just did it.

IMJerusha
March 29th, 2014, 05:59 PM
In the context of nature the dead do not live again. However, God created nature and he has power over nature. Have you heard the story about Jonah? He died and yet lived again.


If a man dies, shall he live again? All the days of my hard service I will wait till my change comes. You shall call and I will answer You - You shall desire the work of Your hands. (Job 14:14-15)


Then the LORD heard the voice of Elijah and the soul of the child came back to him and he revived. And Elijah took the child and brought him down from the upper room into the house and gave him to his mother. And Elijah said, “See, your son lives!”
(1 Kings 17:22-23)

So there is Jonah, Job and a young boy. God can resurrect whomever he chooses.


True that!

Ben Masada
April 1st, 2014, 10:33 AM
In the context of nature the dead do not live again. However, God created nature and he has power over nature. Have you heard the story about Jonah? He died and yet lived again.


If a man dies, shall he live again? All the days of my hard service I will wait till my change comes. You shall call and I will answer You - You shall desire the work of Your hands. (Job 14:14-15)


Then the LORD heard the voice of Elijah and the soul of the child came back to him and he revived. And Elijah took the child and brought him down from the upper room into the house and gave him to his mother. And Elijah said, “See, your son lives!” (1 Kings 17:22-23)

So there is Jonah, Job and a young boy. God can resurrect whomever he chooses.

Jamie, I agree with you that God can do every thing and more but one: The thing you wish He did or should have done. The Lord has power over nature but not to carry it out to satisfy your demands.

I have never heard of a Jonah who died and lived again. Perhaps you are talking about your NT. The "I will wait till my change comes" of Job 14:14 is a reference to a change in his condition. Hence his question "If a man has died were he to live again..." This is a statement to the fact that a man who has died will never live again. You have rather confirmed my views about that text.

As I said above, God can all even resurrect whoever He chooses but not bodily resurrection which is what you have in mind as a result of Christian preconceived notions.

Ben Masada
April 1st, 2014, 10:43 AM
Sure it can, you just did it.

Hi Jerusha, long time don't see! Now Jerusha, if you think I am masking the truth it is probably because the whole truth has been masked before your eyes to either prevent you from finding it or to hide itself from eyes hat cannot stare at the light of the sun. Or last but not least, because you are not ready for it.

jamie
April 1st, 2014, 12:18 PM
I have never heard of a Jonah who died and lived again.



I went down to the moorings of the mountains, the earth with its bars closed behind me forever, yet You have brought up my life from the pit, O LORD, my God. (Jonah 2:6)

The pit is a reference to a grave.

Ben Masada
April 1st, 2014, 01:02 PM
I went down to the moorings of the mountains, the earth with its bars closed behind me forever, yet You have brought up my life from the pit, O LORD, my God. (Jonah 2:6)

The pit is a reference to a grave.

Oh gosh! Jonah the dreamer! He never even left his bed. Jonah was a prophet and if there is a prophet "among you" to him I'll make My will known through a dream or vision. (Num. 12:6) Jonah had a dream about Nineveh to remind himself of the Jewish role to bring salvation to Mankind. Didn't Jesus say that salvation comes from the Jews? (John 4:22) So, Jonah hated the Assyrians for what they would do to destroy the Ten Tribes of Israel. So, in his dream, he tried to escape God's assignment of him to bring salvation to the Assyrians no matter what. Then Jonah went down to Joppa, took a ship to Tarshish and once aboard, he went down into the hold of the ship and lay there fast asleep. (Jonah 1:1-5) Then the crew woke him up and... you know the rest. Every thing happened on a double dream.

Pit here is a reference to how low Jonah fell down to reach rock bottom for trying to escape his Jewish responsibility as Immanuel. (Isa. 8:8)

ABMF
April 19th, 2014, 08:02 PM
Oh gosh! Jonah the dreamer! He never even left his bed. Jonah was a prophet and if there is a prophet "among you" to him I'll make My will known through a dream or vision. (Num. 12:6) Jonah had a dream about Nineveh to remind himself of the Jewish role to bring salvation to Mankind. Didn't Jesus say that salvation comes from the Jews? (John 4:22) So, Jonah hated the Assyrians for what they would do to destroy the Ten Tribes of Israel. So, in his dream, he tried to escape God's assignment of him to bring salvation to the Assyrians no matter what. Then Jonah went down to Joppa, took a ship to Tarshish and once aboard, he went down into the hold of the ship and lay there fast asleep. (Jonah 1:1-5) Then the crew woke him up and... you know the rest. Every thing happened on a double dream.

Pit here is a reference to how low Jonah fell down to reach rock bottom for trying to escape his Jewish responsibility as Immanuel. (Isa. 8:8)
so are you going to heaven?

Ben Masada
April 22nd, 2014, 12:26 PM
so are you going to heaven?

I do not need to go to heaven as I have it already within myself. Isn't what Jesus said in Luke 17:21 that the kingdom of heaven is a peaceful state of mind we are supposed to let it grow within ourselves? There!

IMJerusha
April 22nd, 2014, 02:30 PM
I do not need to go to heaven as I have it already within myself. Isn't what Jesus said in Luke 17:21 that the kingdom of heaven is a peaceful state of mind we are supposed to let it grow within ourselves? There!

Oh? Since when did you accept Yeshua HaMashiach? You enjoy misinterpreting that verse. The previous verse expains it. “Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.” Yeshua wasn't saying that the kingdom of God was inside them but rather among them, as also noted in Matthew 12:28. “But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you.” In other words, Yeshua is the kingdom of God for us.

Ben Masada
April 22nd, 2014, 03:04 PM
Oh? Since when did you accept Yeshua HaMashiach? You enjoy misinterpreting that verse. The previous verse expains it. “Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.” Yeshua wasn't saying that the kingdom of God was inside them but rather among them, as also noted in Matthew 12:28. “But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you.” In other words, Yeshua is the kingdom of God for us.

Well Jerusha, the previous verse (Luke 17:20) rather confirms verse 21. Jesus simply tried to explain that the kingdom of Heaven was not some thing to observe when it comes but to feel it within ourselves. Inside them or among them, it is not the point but to search oneself for it. The quote you bring from Mat. 12:28 only complicates things all together because it is not Jewish. Demon possessions is not according to the Faith of Jesus which was Judaism.

Levolor
April 22nd, 2014, 05:00 PM
Jamie, I agree with you that God can do every thing and more but one: The thing you wish He did or should have done. The Lord has power over nature but not to carry it out to satisfy your demands.

I have never heard of a Jonah who died and lived again. Perhaps you are talking about your NT. The "I will wait till my change comes" of Job 14:14 is a reference to a change in his condition. Hence his question "If a man has died were he to live again..." This is a statement to the fact that a man who has died will never live again. You have rather confirmed my views about that text.

As I said above, God can all even resurrect whoever He chooses but not bodily resurrection which is what you have in mind as a result of Christian preconceived notions.

It seems to me, from what I have read, that this 'preconceived notion' is not peculiar to Christians alone, but is also held by some within Judaism. The Sadducees (sad-you-see) did/do not hold to bodily resurrection. The Pharisees (fair-you-see) do, and some even hold to reincarnation as well.

Oh, to be sad or fair? ;) Forgive my little play on words there.

To me, those who do not believe in the world to come, or the next life are atheists. I have not yet reconciled this belief in God and the simultaneous belief of total perishing at death.

I do not hold the belief of resurrection just because of having been taught or because it is in the bible...these things have been proven to me through experience. Therefore, I do support the bible regarding these things totally... it too, through experiences, has been proven to me.

IMJerusha
April 23rd, 2014, 12:16 PM
Well Jerusha, the previous verse (Luke 17:20) rather confirms verse 21. Jesus simply tried to explain that the kingdom of Heaven was not some thing to observe when it comes but to feel it within ourselves. Inside them or among them, it is not the point but to search oneself for it. The quote you bring from Mat. 12:28 only complicates things all together because it is not Jewish. Demon possessions is not according to the Faith of Jesus which was Judaism.

I'm amazed at some of the things you post. I guess you don't read the Midrash, Pesikta de-Rav Kahannah 1:4, Numbers Rabbah 19.8 or Leviticus Rabbah 24:3. Demon exorcism was most definitely of the faith of Yeshua. In Judaism, exorcism, performed in public or in the synagogue requires the presence of a minyan to make up a ritual quorum. Read Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews wherein he describes demon exorcism with burnt herbs and water immersion. Exactly what kind of Jew are you anyway?... I can see you not accepting Scripture from B'rit Chadashah but you deny Torah/Midrash and accounts of the sages in Talmud. Me thinks you are not what you say you are. Me thinks you are an aberration. Big surprise there!

http://www.jewishjournal.com/cover_story/article/dybbuks_demons_and_exorcism_in_judaism_20120627/

And try this one on for size:
http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-life-and-religion/109188/the-talmuds-many-demons

Ben Masada
April 24th, 2014, 02:48 PM
[quote]It seems to me, from what I have read, that this preconceived notion is not peculiar to Christians alone, but is also held by some within Judaism.

Jews have all the right in the world to interpret the Tanach without being charged with preconceived notions. That's our Bible. The non-Jew who reads the Tanach with the intent to graft Christianity into it is reading it with Christian preconceived notions.


The Sadducees did not hold to bodily resurrection. The Pharisees do, and some even hold to reincarnation as well.

Neither the Sadducees nor the Pharisees believed in bodily resurrection. Their belief of resurrection was according to Ezekiel 37:12. A return from the graves of exile and back to the Land of Israel. According to Isaiah 53:8,9 to be exiled for the Jews was the same as to be cut off from the land of the living and buried in the graves of the nations. This could never be literal.


To me, those who do not believe in the world to come, or the next life are atheists. I have not yet reconciled this belief in God and the simultaneous belief of total perishing at death.

In that case Moses was an atheist for having said that man cannot live forever. (Gen.3:22) King David was an atheist for having said that once dead one can never return. (II Sam. 12:23) Job was an atheist for having said that from the shadow of death he would never return. (Job 10:21) Solomon was an atheist for having said that at death even his or her memory is forgotten. (Eccl. 9:5,6) I think it is enough. If I continue, every one will be an atheist in the Tanach.


I do not hold the belief of resurrection just because of having been taught or because it is in the bible...these things have been proven to me through experience. Therefore, I do support the bible regarding these things totally... it too, through experiences, has been proven to me.

Please, show me where in the Bible that Jesus always referred to as the Word of God is written about bodily resurrection and you will have scored high with me. Experience!!! Have you experienced bodily resurrection? That'll be the day!

Ben Masada
April 24th, 2014, 03:07 PM
I'm amazed at some of the things you post. I guess you don't read the Midrash, Pesikta de-Rav Kahannah 1:4, Numbers Rabbah 19.8 or Leviticus Rabbah 24:3. Demon exorcism was most definitely of the faith of Yeshua. In Judaism, exorcism, performed in public or in the synagogue requires the presence of a minyan to make up a ritual quorum. Read Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews wherein he describes demon exorcism with burnt herbs and water immersion. Exactly what kind of Jew are you anyway?... I can see you not accepting Scripture from B'rit Chadashah but you deny Torah/Midrash and accounts of the sages in Talmud. Me thinks you are not what you say you are. Me thinks you are an aberration. Big surprise there!


Jerusha, I thought we were discussing the Scriptures and not midrashim. Not only in Christianity but even in Judaism we have people who believe in demons, exorcism, and even voodoo and Santeria. It does not mean though that this is Judaism. Josephus must have been describing some of these people's psychic practices. For a Jew to believe in such things, it only means contradictions of the Tanach; let alone idolatry. Me thinks you are not too familiar with these variations of beliefs within the main Sect.

When Isaiah said, "To the Law and the Prophets; if you don't teach accordingly, it is because there is no truth in what you say" he was speaking to Israel. (Isa. 8:20) You can't imagine how many among the People of Israel at the time of Elijah practiced these things as part of the Baal sect of worshipers.

Daniel1611
August 15th, 2014, 09:25 AM
I don't understand all this Ray Comfort style BS going around calling people adulterers and murderers. How many people do these bull horning loud mouths get saved? If you're going to the unsaved calling them murderers, they are likely to say something like "wow, I'm not really that bad" and then not get saved. Teaching people the laws of God is necessary, but AFTER they get saved. Before they get saved, doctrine won't matter. All the unsaved need to know is they are sinners and need faith in Jesus Christ to save them. The Bible says all liars will go to hell. Have you ever told a lie? Yes, everyone has. Then you will go to hell without faith in the Lord. We don't need to tell everyone they are equal to a mass murderer. That's not going to do much of anything but make people resist what you say. Just give them the Gospel. Then once they are saved, then help them learn all doctrine through the Bible. Further, putting so much emphasis on all these sins is making people think if they sin they are going to hell. That is not the gospel. Sinners go to hell unless they believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. The wage of sin is death, but Jesus is the way to eternal life. Lack of faith is what will send people to hell. We should be focusing on giving people the Gospel and getting them saved. Then they can learn doctrine. All this Ray Comfort yelling and shouting is not a very good way to get people saved. We need to be preaching against sin and preaching doctrine from the pulpit to edify the saints. Preaching hard on doctrine to the unsaved doesn't make sense. Get them saved first.

Caledvwlch
August 15th, 2014, 09:37 AM
No. Mainly, it sounds boring. But maybe I just haven't seen the right time-share pitch.

oatmeal
August 15th, 2014, 04:27 PM
Yes, I am going to heaven

I did Romans 10:9-10 and I am saved from my sin.

I am born again of incorruptible seed. I Peter 1:23

I have eternal life. Romans 6:23, I John 5:13

I have spirit from God in me. I John 4:13

I have been justified. Romans 5:1

I am under no condemnation Romans 8:1

S0ZO
August 15th, 2014, 04:38 PM
Are you Going to Heaven?Already there Eph 2:6, and based on your current beliefs, you're not, nor does it look like you will be.

Ben Masada
August 18th, 2014, 05:39 AM
I don't understand all this Ray Comfort style BS going around calling people adulterers and murderers. How many people do these bull horning loud mouths get saved? If you're going to the unsaved calling them murderers, they are likely to say something like "wow, I'm not really that bad" and then not get saved. Teaching people the laws of God is necessary, but AFTER they get saved. Before they get saved, doctrine won't matter. All the unsaved need to know is they are sinners and need faith in Jesus Christ to save them. The Bible says all liars will go to hell. Have you ever told a lie? Yes, everyone has. Then you will go to hell without faith in the Lord. We don't need to tell everyone they are equal to a mass murderer. That's not going to do much of anything but make people resist what you say. Just give them the Gospel. Then once they are saved, then help them learn all doctrine through the Bible. Further, putting so much emphasis on all these sins is making people think if they sin they are going to hell. That is not the gospel. Sinners go to hell unless they believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. The wage of sin is death, but Jesus is the way to eternal life. Lack of faith is what will send people to hell. We should be focusing on giving people the Gospel and getting them saved. Then they can learn doctrine. All this Ray Comfort yelling and shouting is not a very good way to get people saved. We need to be preaching against sin and preaching doctrine from the pulpit to edify the saints. Preaching hard on doctrine to the unsaved doesn't make sense. Get them saved first.

There are two kinds of salvation. One is universal salvation from universal catastrophes of the size of the Flood and the other is personal salvation from one's sins.

The universal salvation is free as it depends totally on God's grace. The personal salvation is quite costing: Obedience to the Law, there is. Isaiah, talking about the personal salvation said that to set things right with God so that our sins, from scarlet red become as white as snow, we must repent and return to the obedience of God's Law. (Isa. 1:18,19)

Jesus added to personal salvation that if one goes into the Temple to plead for salvation and is reminded that he has offended some one else, he must leave all behind and go set things right with whoever he has offended and only then, return to the Temple to proceed with his prayers. Otherwise, God won't even hear what he has to say. (Mat. 5:23,24)

And last but not the least, when Jesus said that salvation comes from the Jews, he meant universal salvation. (John 4:22) Personal salvation is a private business which no one can get it for us. (Jer. 31:30 and Ezek. 18:20)

bybee
August 18th, 2014, 05:44 AM
No. Mainly, it sounds boring. But maybe I just haven't seen the right time-share pitch.

In a Commune there is no excellence, only the dull mediocrity of conformity to the lowest common denominator. That would be boring.

Sandycane
September 1st, 2014, 08:31 AM
No. Mainly, it sounds boring. But maybe I just haven't seen the right time-share pitch.

:first:
Can you imagine an eternity of TOL??
:D

Ktoyou
October 1st, 2014, 09:45 PM
There are two kinds of salvation. One is universal salvation from universal catastrophes of the size of the Flood and the other is personal salvation from one's sins.

The universal salvation is free as it depends totally on God's grace. The personal salvation is quite costing: Obedience to the Law, there is. Isaiah, talking about the personal salvation said that to set things right with God so that our sins, from scarlet red become as white as snow, we must repent and return to the obedience of God's Law. (Isa. 1:18,19)

Jesus added to personal salvation that if one goes into the Temple to plead for salvation and is reminded that he has offended some one else, he must leave all behind and go set things right with whoever he has offended and only then, return to the Temple to proceed with his prayers. Otherwise, God won't even hear what he has to say. (Mat. 5:23,24)

And last but not the least, when Jesus said that salvation comes from the Jews, he meant universal salvation. (John 4:22) Personal salvation is a private business which no one can get it for us. (Jer. 31:30 and Ezek. 18:20)

This is so lame! How does one become so confused?
:loser:

Daniel1611
October 7th, 2014, 04:58 PM
The question is inadequate.

Here's a better one:
If there were no Heaven and no Hell, would you still be a Christian?

If no reward for your good deeds was dangled out there at the end of life, if no threat of punishment was blasted in your eyes, IF THE ONLY REWARD OR PUNISHMENT IS A FULFILLING LIFE OR A LACK OF ONE, would you still follow Christ?

I don't do good deeds to go to heaven. I'll go to heaven because I believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus paid it all. I'm going to heaven because Jesus paid my debt. I try to do good deeds BECAUSE Christ paid for my sins, not so I will go to heaven. Even for he that worketh not but believeth, his faith is accounted unto him as righteousness.

IMJerusha
October 8th, 2014, 10:55 AM
This is so lame! How does one become so confused?
:loser:

Through the explanations of the sages (term used very loosely)...Talmud.

IMJerusha
October 8th, 2014, 11:06 AM
Jerusha, I thought we were discussing the Scriptures and not midrashim. Not only in Christianity but even in Judaism we have people who believe in demons, exorcism, and even voodoo and Santeria. It does not mean though that this is Judaism. Josephus must have been describing some of these people's psychic practices. For a Jew to believe in such things, it only means contradictions of the Tanach; let alone idolatry. Me thinks you are not too familiar with these variations of beliefs within the main Sect.

Since when is Sod (PRDS) not part of Judaism?


When Isaiah said, "To the Law and the Prophets; if you don't teach accordingly, it is because there is no truth in what you say" he was speaking to Israel. (Isa. 8:20) You can't imagine how many among the People of Israel at the time of Elijah practiced these things as part of the Baal sect of worshipers.

At the time of Elijah? Try at the time of Yeshua! Why do you think He was so angry with the P'rushim?

Ben Masada
October 11th, 2014, 01:16 PM
This is so lame! How does one become so confused?
:loser:

Oh! Sorry if you have become confused after reading the above post. Tell me what in the post has made you confused and, perhaps I'll be able to help you.

Ben Masada
October 11th, 2014, 01:22 PM
I don't do good deeds to go to heaven. I'll go to heaven because I believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus paid it all. I'm going to heaven because Jesus paid my debt. I try to do good deeds BECAUSE Christ paid for my sins, not so I will go to heaven. Even for he that worketh not but believeth, his faith is accounted unto him as righteousness.

This is the most dangerous doctrine if ever observed. Try not to observe the Law to test if Jesus paid it all. And when you be taken to Court, tell the Judge that Jesus has paid your debt and wait to see if the judge will let you go scot-free. You will go straight to jail without paying 200.

Ben Masada
October 11th, 2014, 01:38 PM
Since when is Sod (PRDS) not part of Judaism?

At the time of Elijah? Try at the time of Yeshua! Why do you think He was so angry with the P'rushim?

He was not. Paul was the one who had a grudge against the Pharisees who never allowed him to raise a Christian sect in Jerusalem. Jesus was rather of the Pharisaic line. Evidence? Twice the Pharisees tried to save Jesus from being arrested and taken to the cross. First with Herod when Pharisees, undercover, came to him and revealed a secret order by Herod to his soldiers to arrest Jesus. And they urged with him to leave the region. Jesus did as he was bid and got saved from Herod. (Luke 13:31)

The second time was at the entrance of Jerusalem when Jesus was being acclaimed king of the Jews by his own disciples in a Roman province which was Jerusalem at the time. The Pharisees asked him to stop his disciples' nonsense or he would end up on the cross. Jesus answered he could not or even the stones would shout. Okay, the Pharisees must have said to one another; don't tell us later that we didn't warn you. The end result is that Jesus was arrested, taken to the cross and his verdict nailed on the top of his cross: INRI. But it didn't help the anti-Semites who prefer the slander that the Jews were the ones who crucified Jesus, not the Romans.

Omniskeptical
October 18th, 2014, 10:57 PM
He was not. Paul was the one who had a grudge against the Pharisees who never allowed him to raise a Christian sect in Jerusalem. Jesus was rather of the Pharisaic line. Evidence? Twice the Pharisees tried to save Jesus from being arrested and taken to the cross. First with Herod when Pharisees, undercover, came to him and revealed a secret order by Herod to his soldiers to arrest Jesus. And they urged with him to leave the region. Jesus did as he was bid and got saved from Herod. (Luke 13:31)

The second time was at the entrance of Jerusalem when Jesus was being acclaimed king of the Jews by his own disciples in a Roman province which was Jerusalem at the time. The Pharisees asked him to stop his disciples' nonsense or he would end up on the cross. Jesus answered he could not or even the stones would shout. Okay, the Pharisees must have said to one another; don't tell us later that we didn't warn you. The end result is that Jesus was arrested, taken to the cross and his verdict nailed on the top of his cross: INRI. But it didn't help the anti-Semites who prefer the slander that the Jews were the ones who crucified Jesus, not the Romans.Yeah, law engorgement, I mean enforcement, was so innocent then. Especially this Herod, who wasn't threatening him, but rather feeling kind and timid.:loser:

oatmeal
October 19th, 2014, 07:52 AM
Jesus Christ did not die for us because of how good we were but because of how desperately we needed God's help to get to the Father.

Our salvation is absolutely not dependent on our works, be them good or bad, but on the works of God in Christ reconciling the world unto himself.

If we sin after we have received salvation, we do not lose that gift of salvation for that gift of salvation is the gift of eternal life, Romans 6:23

Having received that gift of eternal life from God, God has sealed us for eternal life.

God never condones sin, but since all sins have been paid for, all sins have been paid for.

JPHamilton
October 24th, 2014, 07:35 AM
Jesus Christ did not die for us because of how good we were but because of how desperately we needed God's help to get to the Father.



Our salvation is absolutely not dependent on our works, be them good or bad, but on the works of God in Christ reconciling the world unto himself.



If we sin after we have received salvation, we do not lose that gift of salvation for that gift of salvation is the gift of eternal life, Romans 6:23



Having received that gift of eternal life from God, God has sealed us for eternal life.



God never condones sin, but since all sins have been paid for, all sins have been paid for.


Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. (*James‬ *2‬:*24‬ KJV)

Ben Masada
October 24th, 2014, 10:50 AM
Yeah, law engorgement, I mean enforcement, was so innocent then. Especially this Herod, who wasn't threatening him, but rather feeling kind and timid.:loser:

It means you don't believe your NT.

Ben Masada
October 24th, 2014, 11:01 AM
Jesus Christ did not die for us because of how good we were but because of how desperately we needed God's help to get to the Father.

Our salvation is absolutely not dependent on our works, be them good or bad, but on the works of God in Christ reconciling the world unto himself.

If we sin after we have received salvation, we do not lose that gift of salvation for that gift of salvation is the gift of eternal life, Romans 6:23

Having received that gift of eternal life from God, God has sealed us for eternal life.

God never condones sin, but since all sins have been paid for, all sins have been paid for.

This interpretation contradicts the Prophets. According to Jeremiah 31:30 and Ezekiel 18:20 no one can die for the sins of another or cause our sins to be paid for.

We all have been granted with the attribute of free will; so we can get to the Father any time we wish to. Prophet Isaiah said that to set things right with God so that our sins from scarlet red become as white as snow, all we need is to repent and return to the obedience of God's Law. (Isa. 1:18,19)

There is nothing on earth or in heaven that will seal us for eternal life. It would be a contradiction to God's Word in the Torah that man could not live forever. Read Genesis 3:22.

Omniskeptical
November 5th, 2014, 12:56 AM
It means you don't believe your NT.I don't see your point.

heir
November 5th, 2014, 06:07 AM
Are you Going to Heaven?Yep. I have the righteousness of God upon me. How about you?

Timotheos
November 5th, 2014, 06:11 AM
Are we going to heaven?

I have a serious question. Where does the Bible say that anyone goes to heaven when they die? I can see where the Bible says that the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord, but I can't see where the Bible says that the reward for a Christian is to be a disembodied spirit in the sky.

Ben Masada
November 5th, 2014, 01:14 PM
I don't see your point.

Are you sure! We were talking about Herod trying to arrest Jesus and you gave me the following as a reply:


Originally Posted by Omniskeptical View Post
Yeah, law engorgement, I mean enforcement, was so innocent then. Especially this Herod, who wasn't threatening him, but rather feeling kind and timid.

The fruit usually does not fall to far from the tree. This Herod's father was the one who ordered the killing of hundreds of children with the intent to have Jesus dead and you deny that he was not threatening Jesus but rather feeling kind and timid. God save us of his kindness!

Ben Masada
November 5th, 2014, 01:19 PM
Are we going to heaven?

I have a serious question. Where does the Bible say that anyone goes to heaven when they die? I can see where the Bible says that the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord, but I can't see where the Bible says that the reward for a Christian is to be a disembodied spirit in the sky.

You must specify what Bible you are talking about because the Torah says that man was banned from the Garden of Eden to prevent him from eating of the tree of life and live forever. It means that man could not share with God the attribute of eternal life. (Gen. 3:22)

heir
November 5th, 2014, 03:00 PM
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. (*James‬ *2‬:*24‬ KJV)Galatians 1:8-9 KJV

Omniskeptical
November 5th, 2014, 09:58 PM
Are you sure! We were talking about Herod trying to arrest Jesus and you gave me the following as a reply: Morelike the servants of Herod threatening Jesus, to which Jesus reply was that he was doing miracles. What was the Herod to do? He was timid according to the account.


The fruit usually does not fall to far from the tree. This Herod's father was the one who ordered the killing of hundreds of children with the intent to have Jesus dead and you deny that he was not threatening Jesus but rather feeling kind and timid. God save us of his kindness!More BS; it was the servants of Herod. Was Herod going to punish him for good deeds?

Omniskeptical
November 5th, 2014, 09:59 PM
You must specify what Bible you are talking about because the Torah says that man was banned from the Garden of Eden to prevent him from eating of the tree of life and live forever. It means that man could not share with God the attribute of eternal life. (Gen. 3:22)But mankind should. I don't see your point here also.

Timotheos
November 6th, 2014, 06:47 AM
You must specify what Bible you are talking about because the Torah says that man was banned from the Garden of Eden to prevent him from eating of the tree of life and live forever. It means that man could not share with God the attribute of eternal life. (Gen. 3:22)

What Bible?

Where does 'the collection of books commonly called The Bible' say that dead christians live forever as ghosts in cloud houses?

Ben Masada
November 7th, 2014, 01:49 PM
Morelike the servants of Herod threatening Jesus, to which Jesus reply was that he was doing miracles. What was the Herod to do? He was timid according to the account.

More BS; it was the servants of Herod. Was Herod going to punish him for good deeds?

Indeed, more BS I get back. The servants of Herod could not arrest any one without their having been commanded by Herod. And to punish Jesus for doing good deeds could not be more naïve a question as his
"good deeds" were not done to Herod but to the Jews.

Ben Masada
November 7th, 2014, 01:54 PM
But mankind should. I don't see your point here also.

Perhaps because of your Christian preconceived notions. I was talking about a Jew aka Jesus from the Torah (Gen. 3:22) and you probably expect me to talk about him from the NT. I can't. He was a Jew whose Faith was Judaism, not Christian.

Ben Masada
November 7th, 2014, 01:57 PM
What Bible?

Where does 'the collection of books commonly called The Bible' say that dead christians live forever as ghosts in cloud houses?

The Bible that speak about those things is called NT. Read it and you will see the huge amount of Greek Mythology.

Timotheos
November 7th, 2014, 04:38 PM
The Bible that speak about those things is called NT. Read it and you will see the huge amount of Greek Mythology.

I have read the collection of books commonly called the New Testament in English and in Greek and I have not seen any claim in it that dead Christians live forever as ghosts in cloud mansions in the sky. If you know of any passages that say this in the NT, please show me where. I don't take anybody's word for anything.

Ben Masada
November 8th, 2014, 02:17 PM
I have read the collection of books commonly called the New Testament in English and in Greek and I have not seen any claim in it that dead Christians live forever as ghosts in cloud mansions in the sky. If you know of any passages that say this in the NT, please show me where. I don't take anybody's word for anything.

Good! Don't take the word of any Christian affirming that dead Christians live forever even if it is down in the gospels. Yea, read about the last judgment in Mat. 25:31-46. Christians will be separated into two groups one represented as sheep on the right hand and the goats on the left hand. Those on the right side will be called into heaven for eternal life and those on the left for eternal punishment. This goes against the Torah that says no one can live forever. (Gen. 3:22) Also against resurrection which the Tanach claims will never happen. (Isa. 26:14; II Sam. 12:23; Job 10:21)

Omniskeptical
November 25th, 2014, 02:22 PM
Good! Don't take the word of any Christian affirming that dead Christians live forever even if it is down in the gospels. Yea, read about the last judgment in Mat. 25:31-46. Christians will be separated into two groups one represented as sheep on the right hand and the goats on the left hand. Those on the right side will be called into heaven for eternal life and those on the left for eternal punishment. This goes against the Torah that says no one can live forever. (Gen. 3:22) Also against resurrection which the Tanach claims will never happen. (Isa. 26:14; II Sam. 12:23; Job 10:21)
So God was not preserving the mind of Abel after Cain had slain him. What a sense of justice your "god" hasn't!

Timotheos
November 25th, 2014, 03:23 PM
Good! Don't take the word of any Christian affirming that dead Christians live forever even if it is down in the gospels. Yea, read about the last judgment in Mat. 25:31-46. Christians will be separated into two groups one represented as sheep on the right hand and the goats on the left hand. Those on the right side will be called into heaven for eternal life and those on the left for eternal punishment. This goes against the Torah that says no one can live forever. (Gen. 3:22) Also against resurrection which the Tanach claims will never happen. (Isa. 26:14; II Sam. 12:23; Job 10:21)

I believe Jesus Christ who said that the dead would be resurrected and those who follow him would inherit eternal life and those who reject him would not have eternal life. Genesis 3:22 does NOT say that no one can live forever. It actually says the opposite of that, if man would eat from the tree of life, he would live forever. As a Christian, I believe that the tree of life represents Jesus Christ, God Himself. He is the only way to have eternal life. But this eternal life is not being a dead angel ghost spirit in heaven. This eternal life is real life.


(Isa. 26:14; II Sam. 12:23; Job 10:21)
These verses are referring to the wicked who do NOT inherit eternal life. These verses do not deny that those who put their faith in God will inherit eternal life from the Eternally Living God.

Ben Masada
November 25th, 2014, 03:26 PM
So God was not preserving the mind of Abel after Cain had slain him. What a sense of justice your "god" hasn't!

What do you mean by "sense of justice" the reward of heaven if you behave well in life? Omni, I am sorry to rain on your parade but, to behave well in exchange of a reward in heaven is no different from the reward promised to dogs to behave well or to perform funny. You know, those treats that dog owners give their dogs if they behave. Laws are obeyed to keep us out of trouble. God owes us nothing to show us His sense of justice.

Ben Masada
November 25th, 2014, 03:36 PM
I believe Jesus Christ who said that the dead would be resurrected and those who follow him would inherit eternal life and those who reject him would not have eternal life. Genesis 3:22 does NOT say that no one can live forever. It actually says the opposite of that, if man would eat from the tree of life, he would live forever. As a Christian, I believe that the tree of life represents Jesus Christ, God Himself. He is the only way to have eternal life. But this eternal life is not being a dead angel ghost spirit in heaven. This eternal life is real life.

These verses are referring to the wicked who do NOT inherit eternal life. These verses do not deny that those who put their faith in God will inherit eternal life from the Eternally Living God.

The text in Genesis 3:22-24 explains why Adam and Eve had to be banished from the Garden of Eden; so that they would not eat of the tree of life and live forever. The point here is that the Devine attribute of eternal life could not be shared with man. Only God is eternal.

How could the tree of life represent Jesus if the man died? That's a contradiction in terms. There is no life eternal to inherit. But I understand you. Illusions are usually the last to go.

Timotheos
November 25th, 2014, 03:44 PM
The text in Genesis 3:22-24 explains why Adam and Eve had to be banished from the Garden of Eden; so that they would not eat of the tree of life and live forever. The point here is that the Devine attribute of eternal life could not be shared with man. Only God is eternal.

How could the tree of life represent Jesus if the man died? That's a contradiction in terms. There is no life eternal to inherit. But I understand you. Illusions are usually the last to go.

I believe that Jesus Christ rose on the third day. He died, but he did not remain dead. He is alive. The man died, yet he is alive now.

He represents the tree of life because if we are in Christ, we will also have the gift of eternal life. Read Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The divine attribute of eternal life CAN be shared with man. Read John 1, "But to whoever received him, whoever believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God".

Omniskeptical
November 25th, 2014, 03:45 PM
What do you mean by "sense of justice" the reward of heaven if you behave well in life? Omni, I am sorry to rain on your parade but, to behave well in exchange of a reward in heaven is no different from the reward promised to dogs to behave well or to perform funny. You know, those treats that dog owners give their dogs if they behave. Laws are obeyed to keep us out of trouble. God owes us nothing to show us His sense of justice.

I am talking about the time Abel loses on Cain. Your "god" (i.e. your version) is weak. It can't even wake the dead. pathetic.

Ben Masada
November 25th, 2014, 04:07 PM
I believe that Jesus Christ rose on the third day. He died, but he did not remain dead. He is alive. The man died, yet he is alive now.

He represents the tree of life because if we are in Christ, we will also have the gift of eternal life. Read Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The divine attribute of eternal life CAN be shared with man. Read John 1, "But to whoever received him, whoever believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God".

All the above is from the gospel of Paul who was a Hellenist former Jew. Nothing at all can be verified in the only Scriptures that Jesus used to refer to as the Word of God. The NT, Jesus never even dreamed would ever rise.

Timotheos, Jesus was a Jewish man whose Faith was Judaism. Bodily resurrection is not an item in the Faith of Jesus. It was fabricated by Paul as he confessed it to his disciple Timothy. (2 Tim. 2:8) Prophet Isaiah says clearly that the dead will never rise again. (Isa. 26:14) King David said clearly that the dead will never return. (2 Sam. 12:23) We also have in Job 10:21 that from the grave one can never return. Throughout the Tanach there is nothing to endorse bodily resurrection.

Ben Masada
November 25th, 2014, 04:16 PM
I am talking about the time Abel loses on Cain. Your "god" (i.e. your version) is weak. It can't even wake the dead. pathetic.

What do you mean by "Abel loses on Cain?" When Cain was planning to kill Abel, the Lord appeared to him in a dream and warned him not to carry out his plans because it was all up to his freewill. If he gave in to his intents, he would become a slave to an evil life. That's all. BTW, that was an allegory to indicate that God was sharing with man His attribute of freewill. It means that the event did not happen literally.

Omniskeptical
November 30th, 2014, 02:08 PM
What do you mean by "Abel loses on Cain?" When Cain was planning to kill Abel, the Lord appeared to him in a dream and warned him not to carry out his plans because it was all up to his freewill.Cain was unreformable at that point. Your story is a forgery.

If he gave in to his intents, he would become a slave to an evil life. That's all. BTW, that was an allegory to indicate that God was sharing with man His attribute of freewill. It means that the event did not happen literally.It did happen literally, fool. Clement of 'Rome's LXX has a more accurate account which doesn't try to redeem Cain like the traditional hebrew text tries to.

aikido7
November 30th, 2014, 02:12 PM
Purpose: Wake up the sinner who thinks they are a good person and that good deeds will outway the bad. Bring a conviction of sin. Wake up the believer who has sin as a practice. Wake up the unsaved to the condition they are in. Remind those who walk in victory over sin of what they were saved from. ALL to the power and glory of Jesus Christ.

You think you are going to heaven?Take this test. In taking the test do it in the light of the principle of the question being asked and apply it to your own life circumstances. Lust: (married) persons: Have you had sexual or inappropriate relations with a person you were not married to, while married to someone else? Have you had sexual lustful thoughts( fantasies) of desire toward a person when you looked at them while married to someone else? Looked to long at, because a person of the opposite sex was attractive or good looking? Decided you could look as long as you don't touch? Married a person who got divorced apart from Gods permission? If yes to any of those God says you are guilty of adultery.

(to the unmarried or ((married person pertaining to their past before marriage): Have you had sexual or inappropriate relations with a person you were not married to? Have you had sexual lustful thoughts (fantasies) of desire toward a person when you looked at them ? Looked to long at, because a person of the opposite sex was attractive or good looking? If yes you are guilty of fornication.

Have you ever committed morally questionable acts and conduct toward others or yourself? Ever enjoy "a good" dirty joke?Then God says you are guilty of uncleanness.Played magic games? Visited a psychic or medium or palm reading? Had your fortune told? Followed a horoscope? Played with a ouija board? Read books with topics of magic, wizards and witchcraft? Followed tv shows of people doing strange and paranormal/supernatural things? Witchcraft? Occult? Twilight? Harry Potter ? Bewitched? If yes to any of those you according to God are unclean.

You ever committed lustful or sexually offensive actions toward others such as hitting on someone with a sexually explicit pick up line or publicly showed actions in order to attract sexual attention? Posed in a picture as to show sexy? Walked or carried your body, or dressed to attract sexual attention? Hows your beach swim attire? If yes to any God says you are guilty of lewdness.

Do you put your trust for your health finances and well being in anyone or anything other then God alone? Do you put anyone or anything first foremost and greatest place and part of your life other then God? Do you devote or dedicate your time, effort, ability and skill to anyone or anything other then God or what is of Him?(that includes yourself) Do you esteem, love, give devotion or time over to things that are not Godly or approved of by Him? If yes then you are guilty of the sin of idolatry.

Ever do drugs? Legal or other? Smoke? If yes then you are guilty before God of sorcery.

Ever have a serious dislike or distaste with actions or feelings of being hostile or seriously unfriendly toward someone or anyone even if a enemy or opponent? If yes you are guilty of hatred.

Really ever get angry with a person? If yes then you are before God guilty of murder. Ever shoot anyone even in a war? Or in self defense? Same guilt before God. Murder.

Ever had strife debate or controversy with a person with animosity wrong intentions or dislike toward them? Sue anyone? Take them to court? Argue with ill will? Get in a fight? If yes then you are guilty of the sin of contentions.

Ever not like the fact that someone is enjoying success or an advantage like being paid or given more or got attention for his or her accomplishment more then someone you thought deserved it, like yourself? Or even wished you got it or had it and not, or instead of, that person? Wish you got that present or money that so and so got given instead of them? If yes you are guilty of jealousies. If you do these things with covetousness of wanting of the advantages successes and wealth then the guilt of envy comes.

Ever lash out in anger physically or verbally? punch a wall or beat a person our animal or go into a verbal shouting yelling and screaming fit, have road rage or anger at another driver or person who upset you and you let them know through your actions or in some way that you are mad angry and upset? If yes then you are guilty of out bursts of wrath.

Ever wish everyone would recognize how good you are and wanted your own personal agenda to be the goal of everyone around you regardless of others? Ever work hard to get accomplished the thing you have always wanted without consideration to the cost of others around you? Career goal that was sacrificed greatly for even if by stealing time or hurting those around you? You are guilty of selfish ambitions.

Do you regularly get in disagreements and arguments and be that person who certain topics can never be discussed with but you enjoy that? Political and social issues that you argue about and take a stubborn stand on your views and no one better present anything that opposes it or else? If yes you are guilty of dissensions.

Do you hold beliefs or ideas or thoughts that you believe are true, that are contrary to God and His word? Example do you believe in evolution or other "scientific" explanations of biblical accounts, views, world events along with ethical and moral conduct of society? Be it historical or present? If yes you are guilty of heresies.

Ever get drunk? Take part in a party with loud music dancing games food fun drinking getting high making out with all the actions and activities of sexual perversion drunkenness ect? If yes you are guilty of the sin of drunkenness and revelries.

Ever tell a lie?little white lie? Half truth? Explain something in order to give the wrong perception or impression to deceive or keep someone believing an untruth? If yes you are guilty of being a liar.

Ever steal anything? Take anything that did not belong to you without asking because if you did, someone might object, not wanting you to do so? If yes you are guilty of stealing.

Ever lie tell a half truth or present a obscure view about someone you knew to someone else as to cause that person you lied about trouble or to look bad and win people over to your point of view about that person? Does that sound like gossip? You are guilty of false witness.

Ever look at someone’s house and want it? How about wanting some ones wife or husband? Wanting some ones laborer who contracted with them to break that contract and come work for you? Wish you had someone else's horse cows chickens cat or dog? lawn or farm tractor? Truck car boat RV sport utility vehicle? Wanting a painting or musical instrument that is one of a kind or exclusively made but belongs to someone else?If you did any of these type of things with a seriousness then you are guilty of covetousness.

Ever take the Lord's name in vain? Use it to curse or swear? Even if someone scared you and in surprise expression say oh Jes@$&$? You are guilty of blasphemy.

Ever want to exert your will over someone else? Ever wish you were the boss so you could show them a thing or to? Ever boast about your abilities and achievements as to present yourself as being someone smart and great or better than others? Ever inflate your achievements to seem greater then what they actually are? Ever try to put yourself at the top and make it seem like your most valuable one in the group as to not be laid off, fired, thought badly about or looked down on or excluded and rejected? Guilt of selfishness and pride of life belongs to you.

To the person without God: You said no to all the above and say that you have not done any of those things? Or that your good deeds will out weigh the bad? If yes you are guilty of self righteousness and lying. Hypocrite! Look at our own (good part) justice system. Would a good judge acquit a man who was a horrific murderer ( go ahead and create a really bad crime rap sheet list in your own mind) just because he donated large sums of money to charity, helped the poor, saved some one from drowning, doing all that now and then to balance out his crime? To the person "with God" but have any of the above as a regular thing in your life but deny it you are guilty of lying and hypocrisy with self-righteousness.

You said yes to most of the above and are without God? Here then is the title you have.

adulterator Fornicating unclean lewd idolater sorcerer hatful Murderer contentious jealous envying wrathful selfish dissentious* heretical drunken reveler lying stealing false witness ( slanderer) covetous selfish prideful blasphemer

And you are going to stand before a sinless perfect pure holy righteous God and expect Him to let you into heaven?Go ahead and add arrogant to your title. Humans are not worthy to be saved with absolutely no value in or of themselves to ever attract God to love or save them. Humans are to Him of themselves deserving of the very depths of hell with all it's endless horrors and tortures along with all the other demonic creatures and beings who rebelled against Him because they are as them! A rebellious creation who loves the sin they are in and are always pron to do evil! God is so righteous so holy so perfect that He cannot and will not tolerate warm up to be desensitized about or talked into permitting sin. He demands of His creation that they walk before Him and be perfect! If they won't do it then the place prearranged for that sort is where they will go. It is not His desire that they go, but they of their own will not to obey and therefore putting themselves under His wrath and judgment. God is not a humanist. He is not begging you and pleading with you to stop sinning repent, get a new nature to be made perfect by the blood of His Son Jesus Christ who died on a cross and three days later He raised Him from the dead, and by His blood, atonement can be made for your sins. No instead it’s a gentle invitation to all, that whoever will hear can receive forgiveness for their sin and be changed from being a sinner to saved. Anyone who will believe and receive Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior can be made into a new person and be the perfection through Christ, the work of The Holy Spirit, that God demands. It's the pure Holy blood of Jesus Christ that God shed for the forgiveness of sin that enables you to be made into a new person free from sin and it's desires. You must be born again! Without it you can never be free from sin. With it you will not continue to commit as a practice, sin.

(The person who has sin as a practice in their lives, meaning as a regular occurrence of normal needs to repent and get right with God and do what it takes to live a life of victory over sin)

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” (Revelation 21:8 NKJV)

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. (Galatians 5:19-21 NKJV)

Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world. And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever. (1 John 2:15-17 NKJV)

Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Corinthians 6:9, 10 NKJV)

Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body. (1 Corinthians 6:18 NKJV)

But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Now as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith; but they will progress no further, for their folly will be manifest to all, as theirs also was. (2 Timothy 3:1-9 NKJV)

knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine, according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust. And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord who has enabled me, because He counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry, although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant, with faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen. (apostle Paul speaking in 1 Timothy.)

But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth. Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all. (Colossians 3:8-11 NKJV)

But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of dignitaries. Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves. Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit, and perished in the rebellion of Korah. These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots; raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever. Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.” These are grumblers, complainers, walking according to their own lusts; and they mouth great swelling words, flattering people to gain advantage. But you, beloved, remember the words which were spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ: how they told you that there would be mockers in the last time who would walk according to their own ungodly lusts. These are sensual persons, who cause divisions, not having the Spirit. But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. And on some have compassion, making a distinction; but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh. (Jude 1:5-23 NKJV)

But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life. (Revelation 21:27 NKJV)

Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie. “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.” And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely. (Revelation 22:14-17 NKJV)

Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, uI will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. 21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.22 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.” ’ (Jesus Christ) Revelation 3

I don't care about Heaven. Like Jesus, I believe it's in good shape. It can take care of itself. When I die, it will be either the most profound experience I will ever have, or it will be absolutely nothing.

Salvation is something that is transformative in THIS life--"on Earth as it is in Heaven."

And Jesus himself offered salvation to others before he even turned his face to Jerusalem.

The real problems are on this earth, now. The marginalized, the destitute, the powers and principalities and the captives.

aikido7
November 30th, 2014, 02:16 PM
I am already seated in heavenly places.

I have an easier question. Do you covet? Do you see what others have and think that would be nice? That is proof of being unrighteous, as sin increases with the law.Personally, I have coveted a flat-screen television and I eventually got one.

I may be way off base, but doesn't capitalism thrive on coveting goods and services? The purpose of advertising seems to be to force us to covet.

Ben Masada
December 17th, 2014, 12:44 PM
Cain was unreformable at that point. Your story is a forgery.
It did happen literally, fool. Clement of 'Rome's LXX has a more accurate account which doesn't try to redeem Cain like the traditional hebrew text tries to.

Omniskeptical, you have just proved to yourself to be a real fool. Unaware of what you are saying, you are implying that the Torah is a book of forgeries. I quoted Genesis 4:7 and you are implying that the text is a forgery. Psalm 14:1 applies to you as a hand fits into the glove.

jeremysdemo
December 17th, 2014, 05:23 PM
All the above is from the gospel of Paul who was a Hellenist former Jew. Nothing at all can be verified in the only Scriptures that Jesus used to refer to as the Word of God. The NT, Jesus never even dreamed would ever rise.

Timotheos, Jesus was a Jewish man whose Faith was Judaism. Bodily resurrection is not an item in the Faith of Jesus. It was fabricated by Paul as he confessed it to his disciple Timothy. (2 Tim. 2:8) Prophet Isaiah says clearly that the dead will never rise again. (Isa. 26:14) King David said clearly that the dead will never return. (2 Sam. 12:23) We also have in Job 10:21 that from the grave one can never return. Throughout the Tanach there is nothing to endorse bodily resurrection.
there was even confusion about this among the disciples,

if you read the accounts, when some saw Jesus he passed through walls, while others touched him in accounts of the same events!

that being said the OP is way off, we should not praise or worship God for what we can get out of it (eternal life, heaven etc) but for Love of God.

It's my understanding tho, Jesus did teach the spirit will return to God from which it came on physical death when asked about wives Matthew 22, I beleive this is consistent with Ecclesiastes 12:7.

So what it appears Christians are doing is claiming God's spirit that was given to them is their own, that's how they are going back to God in heaven rather than the spirit.

Will God be fooled? will he let their claim of that spirit being their own returning to Him ride?

Ben Masada
December 19th, 2014, 11:39 AM
[quote]there was even confusion about this among the disciples,

This what, this Christian doctrine? The NT did not exist yet at that time. It was written about 50+ years after Jesus had been gone.


if you read the accounts, when some saw Jesus he passed through walls, while others touched him in accounts of the same events!

You continue using a Jew to disseminate Christian beliefs.


that being said the OP is way off, we should not praise or worship God for what we can get out of it (eternal life, heaven etc) but for Love of God.

Heaven, you can't get back for worshipping God because Heaven is not a place to go into but a peaceful condition of mind we must allow to get into ourselves. (Luke 17:21) And for eternal life, we cannot get from God because He already decided we cannot share this attribute with Him. Eternal life belongs to God only. (Gen. 3:22,23)


It's my understanding tho, Jesus did teach the spirit will return to God from which it came on physical death when asked about wives Matthew 22, I beleive this is consistent with Ecclesiastes 12:7.

The return of the spirit to God Who gave it, is only an embellishment for the breath of life which God breathed into man's nostrils when He formed him so that he could become a living soul aka a person. (Gen. 2:7)


So what it appears Christians are doing is claiming God's spirit that was given to them is their own, that's how they are going back to God in heaven rather than the spirit.

That's delusional consolation to explain the pain of death.


Will God be fooled? will he let their claim of that spirit being their own returning to Him ride?

No, but man is a fool to think of Heaven as a reward as a dog thinks of a treat for performing funny or doing what the master says.

heir
December 19th, 2014, 11:50 AM
Are you Going to Heaven?Ephesians 2:6 KJV

Ben Masada
December 19th, 2014, 12:19 PM
Ephesians 2:6 KJV

This is Pauline doctrine as a result of a Hellenistic mind: Too delusional.

heir
December 19th, 2014, 01:08 PM
This is Pauline doctrine as a result of a Hellenistic mind: Too delusional.

Ephesians 1:3 KJV

Ben Masada
December 19th, 2014, 01:57 PM
Ephesians 1:3 KJV

That's Pauline idolatry by means of the conceptual myth of the demigod which is the son of a god with an earthly woman. That's what Paul was intending to convey here.

WonderfulLordJesus
December 20th, 2014, 12:45 PM
1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God... 20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

oatmeal
December 20th, 2014, 12:58 PM
This interpretation contradicts the Prophets. According to Jeremiah 31:30 and Ezekiel 18:20 no one can die for the sins of another or cause our sins to be paid for.

We all have been granted with the attribute of free will; so we can get to the Father any time we wish to. Prophet Isaiah said that to set things right with God so that our sins from scarlet red become as white as snow, all we need is to repent and return to the obedience of God's Law. (Isa. 1:18,19)

There is nothing on earth or in heaven that will seal us for eternal life. It would be a contradiction to God's Word in the Torah that man could not live forever. Read Genesis 3:22.

There is no contradiction, unless you leave out the context.

Jeremiah 31:29 "In those days"

What days specifically?

It is funny how your first shot is so obviously poorly handled , I did not bother with reading the rest of your post, it is no doubt as irresponsible to scripture as your erroneous use of God's word in Jeremiah 31:30

Ben Masada
December 20th, 2014, 01:04 PM
1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God... 20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

I have been always aware that the NT teaches about the Trinity. I wonder why some Christians deny it. The problem we have with Paul is that he had to use a Jew to do so. Had he used a Greek, we would probably not be discussing this issue today. Hence we must stand against Replacement Theology which was the reason behind his choice of a Jew.

WonderfulLordJesus
December 20th, 2014, 01:27 PM
I have been always aware that the NT teaches about the Trinity. I wonder why some Christians deny it. The problem we have with Paul is that he had to use a Jew to do so. Had he used a Greek, we would probably not be discussing this issue today. Hence we must stand against Replacement Theology which was the reason behind his choice of a Jew.

Why does any mature person love and believe a lie? Because they are not led by the Holy Spirit. The natural man believes what he wants to believe, sees what he wants to see, hears what he wants to hear.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

2 Timothy 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

Ben Masada
December 20th, 2014, 01:45 PM
1 - Why does any mature person love and believe a lie? Because they are not led by the Holy Spirit. The natural man believes what he wants to believe, sees what he wants to see, hears what he wants to hear.

2 - John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

3 - 2 Timothy 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

1 - That's very common and mostly desirable for the sweetness of the consolation as a result of delusion. Pre-conceived notions is as natural as day-dream, and no man wants to be artificial.

2 - All the Truth! What is the Truth? Jesus said that it is the Word of God if you read John 17:17. And if you read Psalm 147:19,20 the Word of God was given to the Jews only and to no other people on earth.

3 - "From such turn away." That's Paul advising his followers to turn away from the Apostles of Jesus because the Galatians were reconsidering their decision to return to the Sect of the Nazarenes. (Gal. 1:6-9; 2:6-10) How much sense does it make to you?

WonderfulLordJesus
December 24th, 2014, 12:24 PM
John 14

1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Omniskeptical
December 24th, 2014, 04:09 PM
Omniskeptical, you have just proved to yourself to be a real fool. Unaware of what you are saying, you are implying that the Torah is a book of forgeries. I quoted Genesis 4:7 and you are implying that the text is a forgery. Psalm 14:1 applies to you as a hand fits into the glove.NO, the Tenach. A torah is just one suggestion in Hebrew. Yes, Cain is glorified in the narrative. The reality is that god made him the first negro to punish him more.

republicanchick
December 26th, 2014, 12:54 PM
Purpose: Wake up the sinner who thinks they are a good person and that good deeds will outway the bad. Bring a conviction of sin. Wake up the believer who has sin as a practice. Wake up the unsaved to the condition they are in. Remind those who walk in victory over sin of what they were saved from. ALL to the power and glory of Jesus Christ.

You think you are going to heaven?Take this test. In taking the test do it in the light of the principle of the question being asked and apply it to your own life circumstances. Lust: (married) persons: Have you had sexual or inappropriate relations with a person you were not married to, while married to someone else? Have you had sexual lustful thoughts( fantasies) of desire toward a person when you looked at them while married to someone else? Looked to long at, 3

iw as agreeing with you until you got to the part about smoking. Sorcery? That is bizarre to call it that, and then you are against other things that are NOT egregious sin. Only MORTAL sin gets you to Hell, unrepentend of

smoking is an addiction. I often feel (lover of freedom though i be ) that it should be outlawed. It destroys people. Heroin is outlawed, why not cigareretts?

anyway,

republicanchick
December 26th, 2014, 12:55 PM
a seroius dislike of poeple will NOT get you to Hell unless you absolutely refuse to at least TRY to forgive. those who do nt forgive cannot be forgiven, but a serious dislike is not necessarily unforgiveness.
:juggle:

Right Divider
December 26th, 2014, 12:59 PM
All the above is from the gospel of Paul who was a Hellenist former Jew. Nothing at all can be verified in the only Scriptures that Jesus used to refer to as the Word of God. The NT, Jesus never even dreamed would ever rise.

Timotheos, Jesus was a Jewish man whose Faith was Judaism. Bodily resurrection is not an item in the Faith of Jesus. It was fabricated by Paul as he confessed it to his disciple Timothy. (2 Tim. 2:8) Prophet Isaiah says clearly that the dead will never rise again. (Isa. 26:14) King David said clearly that the dead will never return. (2 Sam. 12:23) We also have in Job 10:21 that from the grave one can never return. Throughout the Tanach there is nothing to endorse bodily resurrection.
Ben, there were many people (both believers and unbelievers) that attested to the fact that Jesus Christ returned from the dead. The fact that you reject that fact is just too bad for you.

Ben Masada
December 27th, 2014, 02:31 PM
John 14

1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

How could have Jesus said that when, as a Jew, he said that the Kingdom of God is akin to a peaceful state of mind we are supposed to let it inhabit within ourselves and not a place to go to? (Luke 17:21)

Ben Masada
December 27th, 2014, 02:34 PM
NO, the Tenach. A torah is just one suggestion in Hebrew. Yes, Cain is glorified in the narrative. The reality is that god made him the first negro to punish him more.

That's not in the Torah.

Ben Masada
December 27th, 2014, 02:39 PM
Ben, there were many people (both believers and unbelievers) that attested to the fact that Jesus Christ returned from the dead. The fact that you reject that fact is just too bad for you.

Did they see Jesus returning from the dead? No, really there is no eyewitness to it. You are too gullible to believe something like that and from believers and unbelievers. God have mercy on you!

Right Divider
December 27th, 2014, 03:03 PM
Did they see Jesus returning from the dead? No, really there is no eyewitness to it. You are too gullible to believe something like that and from believers and unbelievers. God have mercy on you!
Poor, poor Benny.

Jesus was executed by professionals and was later seen ALIVE again by hundreds of people.

It is you that is gullible.

aikido7
December 27th, 2014, 03:04 PM
I could care less. After I die it will be the greatest adventure of my life or it will be absolutely nothing.

Jesus didn't care about heaven.

It was in good shape and could take care of itself.

Jesus preached the Kingdom of God on earth as it is in heaven. The earth is where the problems are.

Omniskeptical
December 27th, 2014, 03:22 PM
Did they see Jesus returning from the dead? No, really there is no eyewitness to it. You are too gullible to believe something like that and from believers and unbelievers. God have mercy on you!YOU ARE THE CYNICAL ONE WHO DOESN'T BELIEVE GOD AWAKES THE DEAD. The burden of proof is on your cynicism.

Omniskeptical
December 27th, 2014, 03:24 PM
Poor, poor Benny.

Jesus was executed by professionals and was later seen ALIVE again by hundreds of people.

It is you that is gullible.No, you are the gullible one who thinks God has something against dead people.

Omniskeptical
December 27th, 2014, 03:26 PM
That's not in the Torah.Yes, it is, dork. What do you the mark was? Yeah, it said, have compassion on me, I am a murderer. SARCASM!!

meshak
December 27th, 2014, 04:45 PM
Jesus preached the Kingdom of God on earth as it is in heaven. The earth is where the problems are.

The earth will be renewed when Jesus starts to reign.

In the mean time, His servants should preach His kingdom and recruit people to it instead of trying to fix it which cannot be done.

In new earth, we will be living by Jesus' law or teachings.

Right Divider
December 27th, 2014, 05:21 PM
:spam:
No, you are the gullible one who thinks God has something against dead people.
I have NO idea what you are talking about.

Omniskeptical
December 27th, 2014, 05:33 PM
:spam:
I have NO idea what you are talking about.Yes, you spam about God not reviving the dead.

Right Divider
December 27th, 2014, 05:46 PM
:spam:Yes, you spam about God not reviving the dead.
You have it EXACTLY BACKWARDS.

republicanchick
December 29th, 2014, 11:38 AM
I could care less. After I die it will be the greatest adventure of my life or it will be absolutely nothing.

Jesus didn't care about heaven.

It was in good shape and could take care of itself.

Jesus preached the Kingdom of God on earth as it is in heaven. The earth is where the problems are.

i tend to agree. but that doesn't mean we are to live as though this world is the only one. It is NOT.



:cool:

WonderfulLordJesus
December 29th, 2014, 12:17 PM
2 Timothy 1

7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
11 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.
12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

Ben Masada
December 29th, 2014, 03:09 PM
Poor, poor Benny.

Jesus was executed by professionals and was later seen ALIVE again by hundreds of people.

It is you that is gullible.

In a dream perhaps or auto-suggested imagination depending on whom is conveying the news.

Ben Masada
December 29th, 2014, 03:12 PM
I could care less. After I die it will be the greatest adventure of my life or it will be absolutely nothing.

Jesus didn't care about heaven.

It was in good shape and could take care of itself.

Jesus preached the Kingdom of God on earth as it is in heaven. The earth is where the problems are.

But it happens that the heaven he talked about was akin to a peaceful state of mind one is supposed to allow within oneself if you read Luke 17:21 as in "The Kingdom of Heaven is within you."

Ben Masada
December 29th, 2014, 03:16 PM
YOU ARE THE CYNICAL ONE WHO DOESN'T BELIEVE GOD AWAKES THE DEAD. The burden of proof is on your cynicism.

You are simply telling me that Jesus was a cynical Jew because, as a Jew, he also did not believe in bodily resurrection. Unless you are talking about a Greek Jesus and not a Jewish one.

Ben Masada
December 29th, 2014, 03:21 PM
No, you are the gullible one who thinks God has something against dead people.

You didn't even read the name of the poster and gave answer as if he was I. Poor Omniskeptical! No, God has nothing against the dead, good or evil. He is just not a God for the dead but only for the living if you read Mark 12:27.

Ben Masada
December 29th, 2014, 03:25 PM
Yes, it is, dork. What do you the mark was? Yeah, it said, have compassion on me, I am a murderer. SARCASM!!

If it is, quote it! Don't tell me you want me to accept your word for it! I already find too hard to take people's word for it.

oatmeal
December 29th, 2014, 03:35 PM
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. (*James‬ *2‬:*24‬ KJV)

Romans 5:1

James 2:24

There is a huge difference between temporary justification and eternal justification

Man may have been able to temporarily justify himself under the law of Moses, but the animal sacrifices for sin were still necessary.

Our justification is by the works and sacrifice of the son of God, there is no longer any need for our works to justify us.

However, our justification by God's work in Christ implies that we should live accordingly and live a life that glorifies God for having justly justified us

We should be thankful to God for our justification and thus live/walk worthy of that.

Omniskeptical
December 29th, 2014, 04:19 PM
You didn't even read the name of the poster and gave answer as if he was I. Poor Omniskeptical! No, God has nothing against the dead, good or evil. He is just not a God for the dead but only for the living if you read Mark 12:27.

But you don't believe God delivers on the afterlife.:cool:

Bright Raven
December 29th, 2014, 04:24 PM
Yes.

John 14:1-4 King James Version (KJV)

1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

republicanchick
December 29th, 2014, 05:31 PM
it's interesting that the faith alone folks do not want to discuss the actual Scriputre readings that CLEARLY refute osas (example: one in OP).

But then, I guess if you consider that people believe what they want... not so interesting after all




:juggle:

Bright Raven
December 29th, 2014, 05:36 PM
it's interesting that the faith alone folks do not want to discuss the actual Scriputre readings that CLEARLY refute osas (example: one in OP).

But then, I guess if you consider that people believe what they want... not so interesting after all




:juggle:

There is no refuting eternal security;


John 10:27-29 King James Version (KJV)

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

republicanchick
December 29th, 2014, 05:39 PM
There is no refuting eternal security;


John 10:27-29 King James Version (KJV)

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

sure there is. The Bible refutes it... not that the Bible saves people. If it did, the world wouldn't be in such a MESS... after all, even liberals quote the bible here and there when it suits them.

Anyway, you can't just "accept Christ" and then sin all you want and get into Heaven. That is one the top most ABSURD and ridiculous things I have ever heard.

You did not read the Scriputre in the OP... too bad...





++'

OCTOBER23
December 29th, 2014, 05:42 PM
Are you Going to Heaven ?
===================

Technically speaking , The Church goes to the New Jerusalem.

The Church who keeps the commandments of God and the Testimony of
Jesus is taken up to the New Jerusalem Mansion just before Satan is thrown
down and the Two Witnesses start Preaching to the JEWS during the last half
of the Tribulation.

John 14:2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Bright Raven
December 29th, 2014, 05:43 PM
sure there is. The Bible refutes it... not that the Bible saves people. If it did, the world wouldn't be in such a MESS... after all, even liberals quote the bible here and there when it suits them.

Anyway, you can't just "accept Christ" and then sin all you want and get into Heaven. That is one the top most ABSURD and ridiculous things I have ever heard.

You did not read the Scriputre in the OP... too bad...


++'
I'm not too concerned. If you want to doubt your salvation you may want to check and see if you are truly saved.

republicanchick
December 29th, 2014, 05:48 PM
I'm not too concerned. If you want to doubt your salvation you may want to check and see if you are truly saved.

Most people believe that only OTHER people go to Hell.

And yet Jesus's words stand still: that FEW find the narrow way to Heaven

the narrow way is the Church He founded.

And most people hate that Church



+++

Bright Raven
December 29th, 2014, 05:51 PM
It does not have to do with the church;

John 3:16 King James Version (KJV)

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Do you believe it?

republicanchick
December 29th, 2014, 05:54 PM
It does not have to do with the church;

John 3:16 King James Version (KJV)

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Do you believe it?

then why did Jesus speak of HIs Church and the power IT alone has?

"I will build My Church and the gates of Hell wll not prevail against it"

Mt 16:18

looks like the gates of hell can prevail against... individuals... left to their own devices..



+++

Bright Raven
December 29th, 2014, 05:56 PM
then why did Jesus speak of HIs Church and the power IT alone has?

"I will build My Church and the gates of Hell wll not prevail against it"

Mt 16:18

looks like the gates of hell can prevail against... individuals... left to their own devices..



+++

Believe in simplicity. The gospel is not complicated. Even children understand it.

republicanchick
December 29th, 2014, 05:57 PM
Believe in simplicity. The gospel is not complicated. Even children understand it.

you don't know what I believe

you don't know me from the man in the moon

Bright Raven
December 29th, 2014, 05:58 PM
you don't know what I believe

you don't know me from the man in the moon

Why don't you make yourself a little more understood?

Ben Masada
December 30th, 2014, 03:10 PM
It does not have to do with the church;

John 3:16 King James Version (KJV)

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Do you believe it?

My version is that God so loved the world that he became a Jew to teach man what love is and made a big mistake because men killed him and kept on killing other Jews throughout History by means of pogroms, blood libels, Crusades, Inquisition and the Holocaust. Obviously, man was not ready to learn what love is.

republicanchick
December 30th, 2014, 05:44 PM
Why don't you make yourself a little more understood?

u mean so morons can u/stand me?

hey, what am i saying?

morons are amenable to the truth

those whose minds exist in a steel trap super-glued shut... different story



++

republicanchick
December 30th, 2014, 05:45 PM
My version is that God so loved the world that he became a Jew to teach man what love is and made a big mistake because men killed him and kept on killing other Jews throughout History by means of pogroms, blood libels, Crusades, Inquisition and the Holocaust. Obviously, man was not ready to learn what love is.

Jesus could have saved himself. But the price for sin had to be paid. And he paid it. "If this cup can pass from Me.. yet not My will, but Yours be done"


==

Bright Raven
December 30th, 2014, 05:49 PM
u mean so morons can u/stand me?

hey, what am i saying?

morons are amenable to the truth

those whose minds exist in a steel trap super-glued shut... different story



++
Well at least I do not have to put you on ignore.

Ben Masada
December 31st, 2014, 02:10 PM
Jesus could have saved himself. But the price for sin had to be paid. And he paid it. "If this cup can pass from Me.. yet not My will, but Yours be done"

==

I am glad you have reminded us that it was not Jesus' will to walk the "Via Dolorosa" as he said, "yet not my will." It was not Jesus' will to die for no one. That's why he prayed 3 times in the Gethsemane not to. Besides, he was reminded of the word of the Prophets that no one can die for the sins of another. (Jer. 31:30 and Ezek. 18:20) If he came to confirm the Law and the Prophets down to the letter as we have in Mat. 5:17-19, he could not contradict the Prophets.

There is something else you have reminded us of: That Jesus could have saved himself. Indeed he could if he had listened to the Pharisees who tried to save him from being arrested by Pilate by asking him to stop his disciples from acclaiming him king of the Jews at the entrance of Jerusalem, a Roman province at the time. That's what he died for. Hence his verdict: INRI. (Luke 19:37-40)

prefersinful
January 5th, 2015, 01:31 AM
There's nothing like heaven place.. you are one responsible to make places heaven...

patrick jane
January 5th, 2015, 01:35 AM
There's nothing like heaven place.. you are one responsible to make places heaven...

ok der duh der :duh:

SatyamAbhidi
January 5th, 2015, 01:37 AM
Hopefully I am going nowhere when I die...

It has been enough!

Heaven seems so dull, hell is where the fun people will go.

Still, it is not my desire, for it only means further separation if I continue to exist in some way...

Union is the purpose, not how to keep separate for all time.

patrick jane
January 5th, 2015, 01:40 AM
My version is that God so loved the world that he became a Jew to teach man what love is and made a big mistake because men killed him and kept on killing other Jews throughout History by means of pogroms, blood libels, Crusades, Inquisition and the Holocaust. Obviously, man was not ready to learn what love is.

seriously man, go bang your head against the wailing wall. believe what you want, go converse with like minded "jews" or whatever you are. we don't care what you think ben. you are so stuck in the past, it's comical; not worthy of consideration. some part of you wants to do good, but i can't see it at all. not even a glimpse. so depressing, sucks to be jew . . i mean you :duh:

SatyamAbhidi
January 5th, 2015, 01:51 AM
Jesus had to die on the cross for Christianity to ever exist, because it is prophesied that he would. It is not a sacrifice, and the Bible tells us to work out our own salvation, so clearly Christ dying wasn't enough.

Judus is truly the greatest figure in Christianity, because it is through him that the resurrection was possible, and that is the whole basis for Christianity: Jesus died and resurrected.

Of course, lets not discuss the fact that this is not unique at all, there are several savior Gods that died and resurrected 3 days later, as in fact it is based on the Solar cycle.

The is nothing useful about believing the Bible literally... it will not transform you, it will not bring you salvation... it is just a bunch of words that you think are true.

The Torah is as unoriginal as the New Testament, it has borrowed from Babylon and Sumeria, along with Egypt. The Gospels borrow from various mystery traditions, and get most of their insights from Hellenism.

There is absolutely no point to the whole Abrahamic line, it has done nothing but bring bigotry into the world. Prior, the religions of the world inter-mingled and concentrated on mutual understanding and growth. After, somehow, we get this notion that what a particular guy said is somehow more important than anyone else... we get this notion of prophets to give benediction to men that do not seem special at all.

The world would be a lot better place if there had been no Abraham, the offspring of his sons - Christianity from Isaac and Islam from Ishmael - have been poison.

SatyamAbhidi
January 5th, 2015, 01:58 AM
Many of the Greek philosophers were known to be enlightened... can you imagine our world if they had been allowed to flourish? They were intermingling with Egypt and India too, the world would be far more advanced through the totality of understanding...

Instead, we have simply killed off everyone that wasn't adherent to Abraham.

He is the cause of much that is disgusting in our world today, at least back then it was directly greed that caused wars... after, people actually believed they were working for God...

In the old days, a conquering nation would absorb everything of the new culture.

The Christians and Muslims didn't even bother debating, they just killed you if you didn't agree...

This comes directly from Judaism, they have killed locals because they thought the land was given to them by their God.

It is hard to forgive these groups.

Humanity has lost its depth, for what?

patrick jane
January 5th, 2015, 02:28 AM
Many of the Greek philosophers were known to be enlightened... can you imagine our world if they had been allowed to flourish? They were intermingling with Egypt and India too, the world would be far more advanced through the totality of understanding...

Instead, we have simply killed off everyone that wasn't adherent to Abraham.

He is the cause of much that is disgusting in our world today, at least back then it was directly greed that caused wars... after, people actually believed they were working for God...

In the old days, a conquering nation would absorb everything of the new culture.

The Christians and Muslims didn't even bother debating, they just killed you if you didn't agree...

This comes directly from Judaism, they have killed locals because they thought the land was given to them by their God.

It is hard to forgive these groups.

Humanity has lost its depth, for what?

all cultures/civilizations have good and valid paths to enlightenment. it depends on what one is seeking. do like the boy and the tiger and study all faiths, beliefs, religeons and myths. you will end up at Jesus Christ. The Truth The Way and The Life. try to read the book of Romans and the book of Hebrews in the New Testament. it takes less than an hour to read each one. understand what it says. read all the letters and The Acts. then the Gospels flow better. Revelation explains alot. it takes prayer, meditaion and time. Pray to God for only spiritual wisdom. nothing selfish or material. you will hear. or don't. nobody makes you understand or does it for you. Christians don't kill unbelievers anymore. neither do muslims. there are extremists in every time and age. good luck, but you are really starting from a different foundation, perhaps approaching things from a biased perspective. examine your motives, self-examination is always helpful. unless you hate what you see. nobody has figured everything out yet, or tol wouldn't be here. i don't know yet what answers you may search for, but ask better, more thoughtful questions. not questions you can answer yourself. have fun :rapture:

patrick jane
January 5th, 2015, 02:41 AM
:granite:
Hopefully I am going nowhere when I die...

It has been enough!

Heaven seems so dull, hell is where the fun people will go.

Still, it is not my desire, for it only means further separation if I continue to exist in some way...

Union is the purpose, not how to keep separate for all time.

i see how you could think that way. i have said i just want it to be over. nothing. not eternal boredom. but it's not like that. i'm leaving now but i'll tell you more soon. anyway, yes, i never asked to be here. but now i'm here, and i have chance to go to hell forever ? this life is bad enough. we need more punishment ? pain ? suffering ? and we have maybe 100 years tops, to figure it out. really ? i se what you're saying. nothng new. but there is more. i used to think all the Jesus talk was hype mostly. i knew as a child and always knew Jesus deep inside. i was disgusted by the hipocracy and lies and deception i see all around me and drifted from God and Christ. i look back now, and see God working in my life throughout. always. good and bad. sometimes, it's like, what's all this for. why ? i don't want more. you do, you just don't know it yet - :bang:

SatyamAbhidi
January 5th, 2015, 03:06 AM
:granite:

i see how you could think that way. i have said i just want it to be over. nothing. not eternal boredom. but it's not like that. i'm leaving now but i'll tell you more soon. anyway, yes, i never asked to be here. but now i'm here, and i have chance to go to hell forever ? this life is bad enough. we need more punishment ? pain ? suffering ? and we have maybe 100 years tops, to figure it out. really ? i se what you're saying. nothng new. but there is more. i used to think all the Jesus talk was hype mostly. i knew as a child and always knew Jesus deep inside. i was disgusted by the hipocracy and lies and deception i see all around me and drifted from God and Christ. i look back now, and see God working in my life throughout. always. good and bad. sometimes, it's like, what's all this for. why ? i don't want more. you do, you just don't know it yet - :bang:

My words are not of depression.

I enjoy this life knowing it is all for me.

This is the point of Buddhism, along with other schools.

I don't want heaven, there is bound to be the same cycles there as here.

Hell will be the same, cycles on cycles.

Buddha taught how to get out of that cycle.

Now, if I end up in hell after, so be it, I will enjoy because circumstances matter not. It is the same if I am to go to heaven, fine.

I will continue my practice until I cease there too.

It doesn't matter how pretty a picture you try to paint for heaven, even the greatest possible scenario would be boring after a few hundred years.

Same with hell, the greatest imagery of torture will just be normal after a time.

While they are in stark contrast to each other, it is your reaction that creates the distinction. It is what you take with you into each moment that dictates your experience of it.

Ben Masada
January 6th, 2015, 03:01 PM
Many of the Greek philosophers were known to be enlightened... can you imagine our world if they had been allowed to flourish? They were intermingling with Egypt and India too, the world would be far more advanced through the totality of understanding...

Instead, we have simply killed off everyone that wasn't adherent to Abraham.

He is the cause of much that is disgusting in our world today, at least back then it was directly greed that caused wars... after, people actually believed they were working for God...

In the old days, a conquering nation would absorb everything of the new culture.

The Christians and Muslims didn't even bother debating, they just killed you if you didn't agree...

This comes directly from Judaism, they have killed locals because they thought the land was given to them by their God.

It is hard to forgive these groups.

Humanity has lost its depth, for what?

There is no use to blame God for the killing of 4000 years ago. That was a time of migrations. Many groups of peoples would kill to take possession of other people's lands because they needed to stop with their nomadic life and seek for a place to settle down in society. So, they would kill to prevent further insurrections. The Hebrews were not alone with this and they all would use their gods to justify their incursions into other lands. Bottom line is that men were to blame, not God.

Ben Masada
January 6th, 2015, 03:12 PM
seriously man, go bang your head against the wailing wall. believe what you want, go converse with like minded "jews" or whatever you are. we don't care what you think ben. you are so stuck in the past, it's comical; not worthy of consideration. some part of you wants to do good, but i can't see it at all. not even a glimpse. so depressing, sucks to be jew . . i mean you :duh:

I have no use bringing my message to like minded Jews. They don't use a Jew to preach against Judaism. If you want me to leave, I will but you must stop using a Jew to preach against Judaism. That's the whole point why I am still around.

Now, for being stuck to the past, all Christians are to events of 2,000 years ago. No Christian can speak from a pulpit without bringing the past to light. If you are so frustrated from my posts, there is a solution: Don't read them. That's as simple as that.

Ben Masada
January 6th, 2015, 03:33 PM
1 - Jesus had to die on the cross for Christianity to ever exist, because it is prophesied that he would. It is not a sacrifice, and the Bible tells us to work out our own salvation, so clearly Christ dying wasn't enough.

2 - Judus is truly the greatest figure in Christianity, because it is through him that the resurrection was possible, and that is the whole basis for Christianity: Jesus died and resurrected.

3 - Of course, lets not discuss the fact that this is not unique at all, there are several savior Gods that died and resurrected 3 days later, as in fact it is based on the Solar cycle.

4 - The is nothing useful about believing the Bible literally... it will not transform you, it will not bring you salvation... it is just a bunch of words that you think are true.

5 - The Torah is as unoriginal as the New Testament, it has borrowed from Babylon and Sumeria, along with Egypt. The Gospels borrow from various mystery traditions, and get most of their insights from Hellenism.

6 - There is absolutely no point to the whole Abrahamic line, it has done nothing but bring bigotry into the world. Prior, the religions of the world inter-mingled and concentrated on mutual understanding and growth. After, somehow, we get this notion that what a particular guy said is somehow more important than anyone else... we get this notion of prophets to give benediction to men that do not seem special at all.

7 - The world would be a lot better place if there had been no Abraham, the offspring of his sons - Christianity from Isaac and Islam from Ishmael - have been poison.

1 - Where? Where is it prophesied that Jesus would die on the cross?

2 - Can you mention an eyewitness to the resurrection or one is to believe it by faith?

3 - Not in Judaism; there is not.

4 - What do you mean by "bring you salvation?" Salvation from what?

5 - That's true as the NT is concerned. I would like to know what the Torah has borrowed except for the animal sacrifices from Egypt which BTW was not commanded by God but by Moses.

6 - Now, you are wrong to say that the Abrahamic line has done nothing but bigotry in the world. Were not for the Jewish People, this world would still be in the stone age. Read Mark Twain about the Jews and you will have an idea of what the Abrahamic line has done for the world in all means of life. Science, Technology, Medicine, Education and you mention it. I think your generalization is based on some kind of frustration quite easy to figure.

7 - Yea, definitely you must be stuck into some kind of anti-Jewish grudge for obvious reasons, not in the Jews but within yourself.

patrick jane
January 6th, 2015, 04:02 PM
1 - Where? Where is it prophesied that Jesus would die on the cross?

2 - Can you mention an eyewitness to the resurrection or one is to believe it by faith?

3 - Not in Judaism; there is not.

4 - What do you mean by "bring you salvation?" Salvation from what?

5 - That's true as the NT is concerned. I would like to know what the Torah has borrowed except for the animal sacrifices from Egypt which BTW was not commanded by God but by Moses.

6 - Now, you are wrong to say that the Abrahamic line has done nothing but bigotry in the world. Were not for the Jewish People, this world would still be in the stone age. Read Mark Twain about the Jews and you will have an idea of what the Abrahamic line has done for the world in all means of life. Science, Technology, Medicine, Education and you mention it. I think your generalization is based on some kind of frustration quite easy to figure.

7 - Yea, definitely you must be stuck into some kind of anti-Jewish grudge for obvious reasons, not in the Jews but within yourself.

lol. unreal - you get so worked up benji ! you have your own like-minded peers, i'm sure. talk to folks that agree with you. two different worlds. you will never see what we see and we will never see what you see. God Bless you Ben. Jesus died for you. he would have done it if you were the only person on earth. John 3:16 - :rapture: ---- BEN ?

patrick jane
January 6th, 2015, 04:04 PM
I have no use bringing my message to like minded Jews. They don't use a Jew to preach against Judaism. If you want me to leave, I will but you must stop using a Jew to preach against Judaism. That's the whole point why I am still around.

Now, for being stuck to the past, all Christians are to events of 2,000 years ago. No Christian can speak from a pulpit without bringing the past to light. If you are so frustrated from my posts, there is a solution: Don't read them. That's as simple as that.

you're right. but who is preaching against Judaism. is it chair ?

Ben Masada
January 8th, 2015, 02:51 PM
lol. unreal - you get so worked up benji ! you have your own like-minded peers, i'm sure. talk to folks that agree with you. two different worlds. you will never see what we see and we will never see what you see. God Bless you Ben. Jesus died for you. he would have done it if you were the only person on earth. John 3:16 -

God bless you too. But Jesus did not die for me or for any one else because he would not contradict the Prophets who say that no one can die for the sins of another. (Jer. 31:30; Ezek. 18:20) By the way, Jesus did declare to have come to confirm the Law and the Prophets down to the letter. How could he contradict the Prophets now? (Mat. 5:17-19) You guys never cease amazing me.

Ben Masada
January 8th, 2015, 02:54 PM
you're right. but who is preaching against Judaism. is it chair ?

The whole of the NT is about the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology. Attempts at replacing the Jewish Theology is to preach against Judaism. (Acts 21:21)

aikido7
January 8th, 2015, 05:46 PM
Heaven can wait. It will either be the most amazing journey humans can have after death, or it will be absolutely nothing.

Earth is where the problems are. Jesus came preaching "the Kingdom of God on Earth as it is in Heaven..."

Too many believers have got sucked into thinking of a "belief-based" Christianity rather than an "action-based, picking up one's cross" type of Christianity.

Are we really Christians as long as we give our assent to a list of first-century, ancient theological phrases and ideas?

Or are we Christians because we see in Jesus the passion and character of God?

republicanchick
January 8th, 2015, 05:50 PM
Are we really Christians as long as we give our assent to a list of first-century, ancient theological phrases and ideas?

Or are we Christians because we see in Jesus the passion and character of God?

why is Ancient seen as Bad?

makes no sense

modern technology, if anything, is what is bad. We now have the technology to go into the womb and torture and mutilate and kill the unborn

that's progress?

I think sometimes we should go back to the Ancient

Ben Masada
January 10th, 2015, 12:24 PM
Heaven can wait. It will either be the most amazing journey humans can have after death, or it will be absolutely nothing.

Earth is where the problems are. Jesus came preaching "the Kingdom of God on Earth as it is in Heaven..."

Too many believers have got sucked into thinking of a "belief-based" Christianity rather than an "action-based, picking up one's cross" type of Christianity.

Are we really Christians as long as we give our assent to a list of first-century, ancient theological phrases and ideas?

Or are we Christians because we see in Jesus the passion and character of God?

Passion is not a trace of character in God. God is not like a man to be subject to passions. To take God as a being activated by passions is akin to anthropomorphizing God down to the level of man. (Isa. 46:5)

afostemi
January 19th, 2015, 11:34 PM
The question is inadequate.

Here's a better one:
If there were no Heaven and no Hell, would you still be a Christian?

If no reward for your good deeds was dangled out there at the end of life, if no threat of punishment was blasted in your eyes, IF THE ONLY REWARD OR PUNISHMENT IS A FULFILLING LIFE OR A LACK OF ONE, would you still follow Christ?

Amen

Iakabos
February 3rd, 2015, 09:51 PM
The question is inadequate.

Here's a better one:
If there were no Heaven and no Hell, would you still be a Christian?

If no reward for your good deeds was dangled out there at the end of life, if no threat of punishment was blasted in your eyes, IF THE ONLY REWARD OR PUNISHMENT IS A FULFILLING LIFE OR A LACK OF ONE, would you still follow Christ?

I know I wouldn't. I'd still be generally kind to people but I'd indulge in all of the lusts of this world, without a doubt. I'm scared of God, I know He loves me but I'm still very afraid of him. It's that fear of wrath and justice which keeps me on the straight and narrow. Am I a fool for following out of fear, nope. God's in charge around here and I'm too weak to save myself. I accept it.

patrick jane
February 4th, 2015, 01:19 AM
God bless you too. But Jesus did not die for me or for any one else because he would not contradict the Prophets who say that no one can die for the sins of another. (Jer. 31:30; Ezek. 18:20) By the way, Jesus did declare to have come to confirm the Law and the Prophets down to the letter. How could he contradict the Prophets now? (Mat. 5:17-19) You guys never cease amazing me.

there is much more Ben. after Jesus Is Risen, he came to Paul and revealed the Gospel of Grace. you can point to strictly teachings of the Law in Jesus' earthly ministry, it doesn't change the revelation to Paul. read it. soak it in - :hammer:

patrick jane
February 4th, 2015, 01:22 AM
My words are not of depression.

I enjoy this life knowing it is all for me.

This is the point of Buddhism, along with other schools.

I don't want heaven, there is bound to be the same cycles there as here.

Hell will be the same, cycles on cycles.

Buddha taught how to get out of that cycle.

Now, if I end up in hell after, so be it, I will enjoy because circumstances matter not. It is the same if I am to go to heaven, fine.

I will continue my practice until I cease there too.

It doesn't matter how pretty a picture you try to paint for heaven, even the greatest possible scenario would be boring after a few hundred years.

Same with hell, the greatest imagery of torture will just be normal after a time.

While they are in stark contrast to each other, it is your reaction that creates the distinction. It is what you take with you into each moment that dictates your experience of it.

you really are depressed :jazz:

patrick jane
February 4th, 2015, 01:34 AM
for the OP - i know i am. i don't care about you guys. that's your deal, man. not my problem. hey, i'm safe, man. so i can just tell everybody why they are wrong. repent. i'm sorry, that was my split personality. i don't really mean that

Prophet Richie
February 4th, 2015, 09:47 AM
If a person is dead they can't move, they can't go anywhere on their own.

So you believe man or woman has no spirit inside them?

Mankind is made of flesh, of mind and spirit.

You need to rethink your beliefs.

Ben Masada
February 4th, 2015, 03:01 PM
there is much more Ben. after Jesus Is Risen, he came to Paul and revealed the Gospel of Grace. you can point to strictly teachings of the Law in Jesus' earthly ministry, it doesn't change the revelation to Paul. read it. soak it in - :hammer:

Revelation to Paul! How come Jesus' Apostles did not know about it? When Paul applied to join the Sect of the Nazarenes he was rejected by Jesus' Apostles for lack of qualifications to be a disciple. (Acts 9:26) That revelation must have been Paul's idea and he was not worth believing as he was addicted to lie to his heart's content.

aikido7
February 5th, 2015, 04:48 PM
Jesus could have cared less about getting to heaven. That was a later theology overlaid on the word "salvation" which is something Jesus granted to others before his death on the cross.

Bible study is actually "studying the Bible."

Jesus preached the Kingdom of God in parables, not in propositional theology.
He was focused on this earth, with the powers and principalities and the poor and the diseased and the misshapen.

Our Father who art in Heaven...Your kingdom come, your will be done,
ON EARTH, as it is in heaven....

Heaven is just fine as it is. It's EARTH where the problems are.

Ben Masada
February 6th, 2015, 03:15 PM
Jesus could have cared less about getting to heaven. That was a later theology overlaid on the word "salvation" which is something Jesus granted to others before his death on the cross.

Bible study is actually "studying the Bible."

Jesus preached the Kingdom of God in parables, not in propositional theology.
He was focused on this earth, with the powers and principalities and the poor and the diseased and the misshapen.

Our Father who art in Heaven...Your kingdom come, your will be done,
ON EARTH, as it is in heaven....

Heaven is just fine as it is. It's EARTH where the problems are.

Every thing is fine but to my honest understanding, Jesus could not grant salvation to man himself. He said that if one goes to the Temple to plead for salvation and is suddenly reminded that he has an issue with his neighbor, he is to leave all behind and go to set things right with his neighbor first and only then return to his prayers. (Mat. 5:24)

aikido7
February 6th, 2015, 03:27 PM
I could care less about getting to Heaven.

When I die I believe it will either be the most greatest and awesome journey I will ever take.

Or it will be absolutely nothing.

Ben Masada
February 7th, 2015, 02:51 PM
I could care less about getting to Heaven.

When I die I believe it will either be the most greatest and awesome journey I will ever take.

Or it will be absolutely nothing.

Believe me, it will be absolutely nothing and until your remains be reduced to nothing with time. There will be nothing left to do back in the world. The world is for the living and not for the dead.

Heaven is not a place to get into but a peaceful state of mind we are urged to adopt into ourselves. (Luke 17:21) That's what Jesus said. The Kingdom of Heaven is to be found within ourselves or among us in the world.

The grave is not a journey either that we take but that we are taken to. The problem with superstitious people is that they have a hard time to accept reality; the reality of detachment from this world when the time is due. It is nice to stick to life but we are not to worry too much about death. Death must come as birth came. The two are deeply connected naturally.

bigbang123
February 10th, 2015, 11:14 AM
I am a non-christian but if heaven is where God (Th Creator) is than the answer is yes I am going to heaven.

Psalms 145:9 The Lord is good to all and his tender mercies are over all his works / Ecc. 12:7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was and the spirit will return to God who gave it. / Psalms 136 "his mercy endureth forever"

Ben Masada
February 10th, 2015, 02:52 PM
I am a non-christian but if heaven is where God (Th Creator) is than the answer is yes I am going to heaven.

Psalms 145:9 The Lord is good to all and his tender mercies are over all his works / Ecc. 12:7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was and the spirit will return to God who gave it. / Psalms 136 "his mercy endureth forever"

The reference to the spirit returning to God Who gave it is the same as the breath of life which is embellished with being a spirit. Even the expression, "will return to God Who gave it" is an embellishment for "It is gone." Now, for the body which returns to the earth is literal. BTW, the whole point is to explain the reality of death.

Aimiel
March 14th, 2015, 05:50 AM
The reference to the spirit returning to God Who gave it is the same as the breath of life which is embellished with being a spirit. Even the expression, "will return to God Who gave it" is an embellishment for "Its is gone." Now, for the body which returns to the earth is literal. BTW, the whole point is to explain the reality of death.The fact that we go to be with God is literal, too.

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Ben Masada
March 14th, 2015, 02:27 PM
I am a non-christian but if heaven is where God (Th Creator) is than the answer is yes I am going to heaven.

Psalms 145:9 The Lord is good to all and his tender mercies are over all his works / Ecc. 12:7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was and the spirit will return to God who gave it. / Psalms 136 "his mercy endureth forever"

"The spirit that returns to God" is only an embellishment for the breath of life that the Lord breathed into the nostrils of man when He formed him from the dust of the earth. (Gen. 2:7) Any thing akin to an emanation can be called a spirit.

Ben Masada
March 14th, 2015, 02:36 PM
The fact that we go to be with God is literal, too.

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

O my gosh! I hate to rain on your parade but, what can I say? I can't just keep strengthening your delusion. To be with God where? God is not restrict to a specific place. We are already with him if you can find a place in your mind for the concept that the universe is in God and not that God is in the universe.

patrick jane
March 14th, 2015, 02:53 PM
Every thing is fine but to my honest understanding, Jesus could not grant salvation to man himself. He said that if one goes to the Temple to plead for salvation and is suddenly reminded that he has an issue with his neighbor, he is to leave all behind and go to set things right with his neighbor first and only then return to his prayers. (Mat. 5:24)

go start setting things right with all those you've ever wronged, pack a suitcase. then you can pray - :Patrol:

Ben Masada
March 14th, 2015, 03:12 PM
go start setting things right with all those you've ever wronged, pack a suitcase. then you can pray - :Patrol:

Well, if you do not agree, go take your case to Jesus. I gave you the quote. If indeed you have offended so many, probably that's what you gonna have to do.

WonderfulLordJesus
March 14th, 2015, 03:20 PM
Well, if you do not agree, go take your case to Jesus. I gave you the quote. If indeed you have offended so many, probably that's what you gonna have to do.

I apologize if you've responded to the OP question already. (In all fairness, you can't expect anybody to go through multiple pages on TOL, which would be cruel.) I ask, because, from everything I've seen and many things you've related to me, you have some very diminished prospects in the salvation department. Correct me if I'm wrong, you thoroughly reject Jesus Christ, right, despite even the Tenach, with His footprints all over it?

Ben Masada
March 14th, 2015, 03:32 PM
I apologize if you've responded to the OP question already. (In all fairness, you can't expect anybody to go through multiple pages on TOL, which would be cruel.) I ask, because, from everything I've seen and many things you've related to me, you have some very diminished prospects in the salvation department. Correct me if Iris'm wrong, you thoroughly reject Jesus Christ, right, despite even the Tenach, with His footprints all over it?

Yea, let me correct where you are indeed wrong. I do not reject Jesus and much less thoroughly. I reject the "Christ" of Paul which cries far from being a legitimate picture of Jesus. I accept Jesus for what he really was and not for what the gospel of Paul aka the NT paints him to have been. And with regards to salvation the definition is not diminished prospects but positive information endorsed by Jesus himself and the Prophets. Regarding Jesus in the Tanach, only eyes infected by Christian preconceived notions can see him in there.

WonderfulLordJesus
March 14th, 2015, 03:44 PM
Yea, let me correct where you are indeed wrong. I do not reject Jesus and much less thoroughly. I reject the "Christ" of Paul which cries far from being a legitimate picture of Jesus. I accept Jesus for what he really was and not for what the gospel of Paul aka the NT paints him to have been. And with regards to salvation the definition is not diminished prospects but positive information endorsed by Jesus himself and the Prophets. Regarding Jesus in the Tanach, only eyes infected by Christian preconceived notions can see him in there.

Indeed wrong? Out of the gate, first chapter of John, Jesus Christ is very God. You don't thoroughly reject the Lord Jesus, when you deny His very Person and purpose? You aren't rationale. You're like saying you don't reject Albert Schweitzer, just that he was a doctor and that he was ever in Africa. And you know full well rejecting Jesus Christ means rejecting the truth of Christianity. Why are you even here, disputing the Lord Jesus and the Christian faith?

Ben Masada
March 14th, 2015, 03:59 PM
Indeed wrong? Out of the gate, first chapter of John, Jesus Christ is very God. You don't thoroughly reject the Lord Jesus, when you deny His very Person and purpose? You aren't rationale. You're like saying you don't reject Albert Schweitzer, just that he was a doctor and that he was ever in Africa. And you know full well rejecting Jesus Christ means rejecting the truth of Christianity. Why are you even here, disputing the Lord Jesus and the Christian faith?

I am here for one reason only. Because Jesus was a Jew whose Faith was Judaism and the NT is using a Jew to preach against his Faith which just happens to be mine too. If you can teach the NT without using a Jew to preach against his Faith, I will never bother you again. I am sure that you don't deny the fact that Jesus was a Jew, do you? So let's refer to him as a Jew and not a Christian.

Now, with regards to the "truth" of Christianity, Isaiah states that if one does not teach according to the Law and the Prophets, there is no truth in what he or she says. (Isa. 8:20) does the NT teach according to the Law and the Prophets? I don't think so.

WonderfulLordJesus
March 14th, 2015, 04:07 PM
I am here for one reason only. Because Jesus was a Jew whose Faith was Judaism and the NT is using a Jew to preach against his Faith which just happens to be mine too. If you can teach the NT without using a Jew to preach against his Faith, I will never bother you again. I am sure that you don't deny the fact that Jesus was a Jew, do you? So let's refer to him as a Jew and not a Christian.

Now, with regards to the "truth" of Christianity, Isaiah states that if one does not teach according to the Law and the Prophets, there is no truth in what he or she says. (Isa. 8:20) does the NT teach according to the Law and the Prophets? I don't think so.

More antichrist smoke, trying to make Him a liar in His very being and teachings, shameful and evil.

I don't go to Buddhist forums, running down the Buddhist faith, or Hindus, or Taoists, or even Muslims' places of discourse, wouldn't even go to an auto mechanic's forum and dispute as mythological the need for oil in a crankcase. This is only the sort of thing idiotic trolls do, who thrive on offensiveness and disputing. And you're not that pathetic and lonely, right? If you're challenged with Google, I'll help you find some place Jewish.

Omniskeptical
March 15th, 2015, 12:30 PM
Now, with regards to the "truth" of Christianity, Isaiah states that if one does not teach according to the Law and the Prophets, there is no truth in what he or she says. (Isa. 8:20) does the NT teach according to the Law and the Prophets? I don't think so. Yes, it does; except for cermonial law, of which kosher laws aren't.

False Prophet
March 15th, 2015, 01:14 PM
Where did you get your ticket punched?

Ben Masada
March 16th, 2015, 01:44 PM
More antichrist smoke, trying to make Him a liar in His very being and teachings, shameful and evil.

I don't go to Buddhist forums, running down the Buddhist faith, or Hindus, or Taoists, or even Muslims' places of discourse, wouldn't even go to an auto mechanic's forum and dispute as mythological the need for oil in a crankcase. This is only the sort of thing idiotic trolls do, who thrive on offensiveness and disputing. And you're not that pathetic and lonely, right? If you're challenged with Google, I'll help you find some place Jewish.

Of course! Why would you do that to the Buddhists? They are not trying to replace the Christian Theology as you are doing to Judaism. And thank you for the reference to a Jewish website. They don't vandalize Judaism with the things of Judaism.

I am not a troll. I have been here much longer than you have. A troll does not remain in the same website too long.

WonderfulLordJesus
March 16th, 2015, 01:49 PM
A troll does not remain in the same website too long.

You've got me there, must somewhat bow to your expertise as to trolls, though there are websites this isn't at all true, either. You would even seem professional to me, if you made any real spiritual sense, but you do strike me as a career troll. Of course, that's probably not saying anything, anyway, about trolls, even the mediocre often make careers of it.

Ben Masada
March 16th, 2015, 01:52 PM
Yes, it does; except for cermonial law, of which kosher laws aren't.

See what you are doing? Trying to escape the truth of God's Law in the Decalogue with rituals. Read Rom. 7:1-7. It is about the allegory of the widow who gets freedom from the marriage law with the death of her husband. Paul meant to get rid of the Decalogue with the death of Jesus. If you read that text, you will see that he refers to the Decalogue in verse 7.

WonderfulLordJesus
March 16th, 2015, 01:58 PM
See what you are doing? Trying to escape the truth of God's Law in the Decalogue with rituals. Read Rom. 7:1-7. It is about the allegory of the widow who gets freedom from the marriage law with the death of her husband. Paul meant to get rid of the Decalogue with the death of Jesus. If you read that text, you will see that he refers to the Decalogue in verse 7.

A thousand more micrograms of LSD, and it becomes clear.

Ben Masada
March 16th, 2015, 02:00 PM
You've got me there, must somewhat bow to your expertise as to trolls, though there are websites this isn't at all true, either. You would even seem professional to me, if you made any real spiritual sense, but you do strike me as a career troll. Of course, that's probably not saying anything, anyway, about trolls, even the mediocre often make careers of it.

No, you are simply effecting a psychological transfer to charge me as a troll when in reality, deep down in your subconscious you know that I am striking you as a real member of the Faith of Jesus which was Judaism. That's the truth.

Ben Masada
March 16th, 2015, 02:03 PM
A thousand more micrograms of LSD, and it becomes clear.

For you. As for me, it is plainly clear without LSD.

WonderfulLordJesus
March 16th, 2015, 02:04 PM
No, you are simply effecting a psychological transfer to charge me as a troll when in reality, deep down in your subconscious you know that I am striking you as a real member of the Faith of Jesus which was Judaism. That's the truth.

"I'm not a real Jew, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express."

Ben Masada
March 16th, 2015, 02:12 PM
"I'm not a real Jew, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express."

You should have saved your time with this post above because I already know for sure that you are no Jew.

WonderfulLordJesus
March 16th, 2015, 02:53 PM
You should have saved your time with this post above because I already know for sure that you are no Jew.

Wow! If you hadn't decided on a fake Jew forum persona, you could have gone by Sherlock.

Ben Masada
March 16th, 2015, 03:11 PM
Wow! If you hadn't decided on a fake Jew forum persona, you could have gone by Sherlock.

Don't you have something more important to discuss? How about the contradictions between Matthew and Luke as the birth of Jesus was concerned? To me, sometimes it seems that they are talking about two different Jesuses. Wouldn't you like to know why?

WonderfulLordJesus
March 16th, 2015, 03:17 PM
Don't you have something more important to discuss?

In your case, more important than what an antichrist is doing here, telling lies and slandering Jesus Christ and the gospel?

Ben Masada
March 16th, 2015, 03:25 PM
In your case, more important than what an antichrist is doing here, telling lies and slandering Jesus Christ and the gospel?

Listen, did you read I John 2:18,19 as I requested of you to do? The text says that the anti-Christs are supposed to come from the ranks of Christianity and I didn't. How do you explain your hostility?

WonderfulLordJesus
March 16th, 2015, 03:29 PM
How do you explain your hostility?

Because you are a deceiver and an antichrist. Because you are evil. What part of this do you not understand?

Ben Masada
March 16th, 2015, 03:39 PM
Because you are a deceiver and an antichrist. Because you are evil. What part of this do you not understand?

What I don't understand is your refusal to check what I say by reading the quotes I give which are evidences of my words. You still haven't read II John 2:18,19 to know where the anti-Christs come from. Nu!

WonderfulLordJesus
March 16th, 2015, 03:54 PM
What I don't understand is your refusal to check what I say by reading the quotes I give which are evidences of my words. You still haven't read II John 2:18,19 to know where the anti-Christs come from. Nu!

Since you deny being antichrist, what's the point? You either can't understand what an antichrist is, or you're lying, in either case, what's the point of going into any theology with you? Can you understand that much? Why talk about brain surgery with you, when the most you can possibly muster is a conversation about carving a turkey?

Omniskeptical
March 17th, 2015, 02:39 AM
See what you are doing? Trying to escape the truth of God's Law in the Decalogue with rituals. Read Rom. 7:1-7. It is about the allegory of the widow who gets freedom from the marriage law with the death of her husband. Paul meant to get rid of the Decalogue with the death of Jesus. If you read that text, you will see that he refers to the Decalogue in verse 7.

Τί οὖν ἐροῦμεν ὁ νόμος ἁμαρτία μὴ γένοιτο ἀλλὰ τὴν ἁμαρτίαν οὐκ ἔγνων εἰ μὴ διὰ νόμου τήν τε γὰρ ἐπιθυμίαν οὐκ ᾔδειν εἰ μὴ ὁ νόμος ἔλεγεν Οὐκ ἐπιθυμήσεις

Romans 7:7 Whyfore we tell ourselves by a law the wrong, it wouldn't be but a wrong I wasn't feeling; except with the law a covet. I wasn't seeing it, except it was wording, don't covet.

Ben Masada
March 20th, 2015, 01:28 PM
Since you deny being antichrist, what's the point? You either can't understand what an antichrist is, or you're lying, in either case, what's the point of going into any theology with you? Can you understand that much? Why talk about brain surgery with you, when the most you can possibly muster is a conversation about carving a turkey?

WLJ, to be that anti-Jewish will take you nowhere. Come down man! This is not good to your health.

Ben Masada
March 20th, 2015, 01:31 PM
Τί οὖν ἐροῦμεν ὁ νόμος ἁμαρτία μὴ γένοιτο ἀλλὰ τὴν ἁμαρτίαν οὐκ ἔγνων εἰ μὴ διὰ νόμου τήν τε γὰρ ἐπιθυμίαν οὐκ ᾔδειν εἰ μὴ ὁ νόμος ἔλεγεν Οὐκ ἐπιθυμήσεις

Romans 7:7 Whyfore we tell ourselves by a law the wrong, it wouldn't be but a wrong I wasn't feeling; except with the law a covet. I wasn't seeing it, except it was wording, don't covet.

This is not from the KJV which is supposed to be the most preferred of all Bible versions among Christians.

Omniskeptical
March 22nd, 2015, 10:50 PM
This is not from the KJV which is supposed to be the most preferred of all Bible versions among Christians.What are you going to do about it?

Omniskeptical
March 22nd, 2015, 10:54 PM
Whyfore we tell ourselves by a law the wrong, it wouldn't be but a wrong I wasn't feeling; except with the law, a covet. I wasn't seeing it, except a law was wording, don't covet.

I made it a little clearer for you.

Ben Masada
March 23rd, 2015, 03:16 PM
I made it a little clearer for you.

Nothing. Just to acknowledge that every one has the right to write his or her own gospel.

Simon Baker
March 23rd, 2015, 03:59 PM
Nothing. Just to acknowledge that every one has the right to write his or her own gospel.

I Detect Jealousy And Animosity Of Christians From You Benjamin, Or Is It ANY Non-Jew That You Dislike ? Are You Mad At God For Sending Jesus The Son Of God ? We Have Salvation, You Can Too !

What Is The Opposite Of Anti-Semite ?


19473

Omniskeptical
March 27th, 2015, 04:29 PM
Nothing. Just to acknowledge that every one has the right to write his or her own gospel.
So what you are saying is that as a jew, even jew have your own gospel.
Wha' jew gonna do about it?

Bright Raven
March 27th, 2015, 04:48 PM
Absolutely!

Shibolet
March 30th, 2015, 02:22 PM
I don't think so. To go some place one must know it exists and, in the case of heaven, it helps to first believe it does. Heaven to me is akin to the universe which was caused to begin by the Creator and a good evidence for that we have from Albert Einstein who connected the expansion of the universe to God's Creation. He was working on a formula about the expansion of the universe when he was asked if he believed in God and he said that all his life was to catch up with God at His work of Creation.

IMJerusha
March 30th, 2015, 03:45 PM
I don't think so. To go some place one must know it exists and, in the case of heaven, it helps to first believe it does. Heaven to me is akin to the universe which was caused to begin by the Creator and a good evidence for that we have from Albert Einstein who connected the expansion of the universe to God's Creation. He was working on a formula about the expansion of the universe when he was asked if he believed in God and he said that all his life was to catch up with God at His work of Creation.

If one believes God exists then one must believe that Heaven exists.

dialm
March 30th, 2015, 05:12 PM
Come on now pie lady. You are a very nice person but there are no absolutes in the art of baking.

dialm
March 30th, 2015, 05:12 PM
It is a pinch of this and a dash of that.

Shibolet
March 31st, 2015, 12:23 PM
If one believes God exists then one must believe that Heaven exists.

Of course! I agree with you on that one. If God did not exist, Heaven would not. Why? Because God caused Heaven to exist. The difference between you and me is that in your mind, Heaven here is akin to a blissful place inhabited by God and His angels and God knows what else. In mine, Heaven is meant to be the universe and we all are in the composition of it. Now, if you read Luke 17:21, Jesus referred to Heaven as an esoteric peaceful condition of mind we all are supposed to invite into ourselves and not the other way around. IOW, that the kingdom of Heaven is within each one of us or among ourselves and not a place to get into.

jamie
April 2nd, 2015, 02:35 PM
IOW, that the kingdom of Heaven is within each one of us or among ourselves and not a place to get into.


Is that what Christ promised Abraham? Or was there land involved?

Shibolet
April 2nd, 2015, 02:53 PM
Is that what Christ promised Abraham? Or was there land involved?

Since you are referring to Jesus, the answer is negative. Jesus did not promise Abraham any thing whatsoever. One never saw the other. Yes, God did promise Abraham the Promised Land as His part in the Covenant with Abraham.

jamie
April 2nd, 2015, 03:05 PM
Jesus did not promise Abraham any thing whatsoever. One never saw the other.


If you deny Jesus' testimony then why do you quote the NT which is about him and what he believed?


Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day, and he saw it and was glad.

Then said the Jews unto him, "Thou art not yet fifty years old and hast thou seen Abraham?"

Jesus said unto them, "Verily, verily, I say unto you before Abraham was, I am." (John 8:56-58)

Like God, Jesus self existed (YHVH).

Shibolet
April 2nd, 2015, 03:33 PM
If you deny Jesus' testimony then why do you quote the NT which is about him and what he believed?


Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day, and he saw it and was glad.

Then said the Jews unto him, "Thou art not yet fifty years old and hast thou seen Abraham?"

Jesus said unto them, "Verily, verily, I say unto you before Abraham was, I am." (John 8:56-58)

Like God, Jesus self existed (YHVH).

Listen Jamie, do you believe Jesus was a loyal Jew to his Faith which was Judaism? If you do, believe me, Jesus could never have let go such a non-Jewish statement. If you expect us to accept John 8:56-58, you must be ready to adopt also John 8:41. It says in there that Jesus was born out of fornication. How would that fall into your mind? That revelation was made by the Jews who had grown up with Jesus. How did they know it? Know what? That according to Josephus, rapes of Jewish young ladies in Israel in the First Century was rampant which resulted in the birth of thousands of bastards in Israel. I refuse to believe that Mary was raped but hey, I can't erase the evidences and one of them is the Christian doctrine that Jesus was not a biological son of Joseph. Why do they do this? Probably because it is not good for the Trinity. Please! Have mercy!

oatmeal
April 2nd, 2015, 03:39 PM
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. (*James‬ *2‬:*24‬ KJV)


Works are the evidence of what a person believes.

I have received the gift of eternal life from God

I did not receive that gift by my faith for I had none, I received it by the faith of Jesus Christ.

I chose to do Romans 10:9-10, I confessed and I believed

jamie
April 2nd, 2015, 03:48 PM
Listen Jamie, do you believe Jesus was a loyal Jew to his Faith which was Judaism?


Jesus founded a new sect within Judaism based on a new covenant with Jews and Gentiles.

Because Paul was a Roman citizen he could travel freely thoughout the Roman empire and shared with Jews and Gentiles about this new covenant.

Lon
April 2nd, 2015, 03:50 PM
Purpose: Wake up the sinner who thinks they are a good person and that good deeds will outway the bad. Bring a conviction of sin. Wake up the believer who has sin as a practice. Wake up the unsaved to the condition they are in. Remind those who walk in victory over sin of what they were saved from. ALL to the power and glory of Jesus Christ.

Do you ever [sin]?

Yes. All of us 'ever' sinned. You are a sinner. I am a sinner. You have given me Romans 3:23 of the Romans road. Now give me the good news. Don't tell me to 'stop' sinning because it is too late. You and I have sinned. Tell me good news.


1) You and I have sinned, that question answered.
2) What are the wages of sin?
3) Just tough luck, or can something/has something been done?
4) "If" there is something to be done, what is that. Don't say 'stop.'
That doesn't take care of past sin. We are 'already' to pay the wages of sin.

5) What of ensuing/future sin? Too late again? What?

6) Already done? Do I need to apply, like for a forgiveness grant?
How do I get it?


Can you give me good news? Is the Good news that I'm going to Heaven?

Or is this just a thread that we are all going to hell?

truthjourney
April 2nd, 2015, 04:33 PM
Listen Jamie, do you believe Jesus was a loyal Jew to his Faith which was Judaism? If you do, believe me, Jesus could never have let go such a non-Jewish statement. If you expect us to accept John 8:56-58, you must be ready to adopt also John 8:41. It says in there that Jesus was born out of fornication. How would that fall into your mind? That revelation was made by the Jews who had grown up with Jesus. How did they know it? Know what? That according to Josephus, rapes of Jewish young ladies in Israel in the First Century was rampant which resulted in the birth of thousands of bastards in Israel. I refuse to believe that Mary was raped but hey, I can't erase the evidences and one of them is the Christian doctrine that Jesus was not a biological son of Joseph. Why do they do this? Probably because it is not good for the Trinity. Please! Have mercy!
It does not say that Jesus was born out of fornication. Why do you take that scripture out of context? You zero in on the word fornication and link it to Jesus that way instead of what Jesus said "But you are doing the deeds of your father." What was he talking about? Isn't fornication in the scriptures also said to be idolatry?
Jer. 3:8And I see when (for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery) I have sent her away, and I give the bill of her divorce unto her, that treacherous Judah her sister hath not feared, and goeth and committeth fornication -- she also.
9And it hath come to pass, from the vileness of her fornication, that the land is defiled, and she committeth fornication with stone and with wood.
Ezek. 16:26 And thou hast committed fornication with the Egyptians thy neighbours, men of large bodies, and hast multiplied thy fornications to provoke me.28Thou hast also committed fornication[/YELLOW] with the Assyrians, because thou wast not yet satisfied: and after thou hadst played the harlot with them, even so thou wast not contented. 29Thou hast also multiplied thy fornications in the land of Chanaan with the Chaldeans: and neither so wast then satisfied.

John 8:44 "You are from your father The Devil, and the desire of your father you are willing to do; from the beginning he has been murdering men and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him; whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from what is his, because he is of falsehood and is also its father."
John 8: 47"Whoever is from God hears God's words; therefore you are not hearing, because you are not from God."

John 8:42Yeshua said unto them, "If God were your father, you would have loved me, for I have proceeded from God and have not come of my own pleasure, but he has sent Me

SonOfCaleb
April 3rd, 2015, 08:41 AM
If the 'good' are apparently going to Heaven what's the point in the Earth and why would God create it, or the humans on it, only for them to die and possibly go to Heaven. Seems like a very sub optimal process to me....

IMJerusha
April 3rd, 2015, 10:46 AM
Come on now pie lady. You are a very nice person but there are no absolutes in the art of baking.


It is a pinch of this and a dash of that.

There are most definitely absolutes in the art of baking. Salt out of the bread as well as the faith makes for blandness.

IMJerusha
April 3rd, 2015, 11:16 AM
Of course! I agree with you on that one. If God did not exist, Heaven would not. Why? Because God caused Heaven to exist. The difference between you and me is that in your mind, Heaven here is akin to a blissful place inhabited by God and His angels and God knows what else. In mine, Heaven is meant to be the universe and we all are in the composition of it. Now, if you read Luke 17:21, Jesus referred to Heaven as an esoteric peaceful condition of mind we all are supposed to invite into ourselves and not the other way around. IOW, that the kingdom of Heaven is within each one of us or among ourselves and not a place to get into.

It's weird how people can see the allegory in one place but can't see it in another. While Yeshua stated that Heaven is within us, He didn't mean that Heaven is an esoteric peaceful condition of the mind but rather that the faith which we hold in our hearts, where God wrote His Law, is what determines our destination.

Yeshua said, "I go to prepare a place for you." Whether the place called Heaven is visible to us now or not, it is a tangible place that He went to and likened it to a mansion or insula. It is where God, our very real, tangible Creator lives. Our God is not an esoteric, peaceful condition of the mind. Our God is real, all powerful, ever present and all knowing. He walked and spoke with Adam. He spoke to Moses and the Prophets. He literally led His people out of bondage. The difference between you and I is faith.

Shibolet
April 3rd, 2015, 11:41 AM
Jesus founded a new sect within Judaism based on a new covenant with Jews and Gentiles.

Because Paul was a Roman citizen he could travel freely thoughout the Roman empire and shared with Jews and Gentiles about this new covenant.

At least, would you please quote to me where I can read that Jesus founded a new sect within Judaism? What I have is that even the Sect of the Nazarenes was organized by his Apostles on his behalf and not by Jesus himself and they chose Jerusalem for their headquarters. But hey, you might be right but for that you must quote your assertion as an evidence of what you say.

Shibolet
April 3rd, 2015, 12:12 PM
1 - It does not say that Jesus was born out of fornication. Why do you take that scripture out of context? You zero in on the word fornication and link it to Jesus that way instead of what Jesus said "But you are doing the deeds of your father." What was he talking about? Isn't fornication in the scriptures also said to be idolatry?

2 - Jer. 3:8And I see when (for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery) I have sent her away, and I give the bill of her divorce unto her, that treacherous Judah her sister hath not feared, and goeth and committeth fornication --she also.

3 - And it hath come to pass, from the vileness of her fornication, that the land is defiled, and she committeth fornication with stone and with wood.

4 - Ezek. 16:26 And thou hast committed fornication with the Egyptians thy neighbours, men of large bodies, and hast multiplied thy fornications to provoke me.28Thou hast also committed ornication with the Assyrians, because thou wast not yet satisfied: and after thou hadst played the harlot with them, even so thou wast not contented. 29Thou hast also multiplied thy fornications in the land of Chanaan with the Chaldeans: and neither so wast then satisfied.

5 - John 8:44 "You are from your father The Devil, and the desire of your father you are willing to do; from the beginning he has been murdering men and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him; whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from what is his, because he is of falsehood and is also its father."

6 - John 8: 47"Whoever is from God hears God's words; therefore you are not hearing, because you are not from God."

7 - John 8:42Yeshua said unto them, "If God were your father you would have loved me, for I have proceeded from God and have not come of my own pleasure, but he has sent Me

1 - No, it is in the same context of John 8. It is very clear that Jesus was born out of fornication. That was the answer given by Jews that did not like to hear Jesus calling them children of the devil. That's called Christian preconceived notion. You prefer to attack back without giving an honest answer.

2 - It just happens that, according to Jer. 31:30 and Ezek. 18:20 we have nothing to do with the sins of our fathers. No one has to die for the sins of another.

3 - I do not deny but, as I have said above, we have nothing to do with the sins of our fathers.

4 - It just happens that we were talking about the fornication in John 8:41 and you have poured on me several texts that have nothing to do with the issue under discussion.

5 - And the answer of the Jews who did not like to be called children of the devil was that Jesus was born out of fornication. (John 8:41) And their answer caused you to attack our fathers with sins that we have nothing to do with.

6 - And neither was Jesus as long as you insist on letting Christian preconceived notions cloud your understanding of the whole NT.

7 - And according to Christian preconceived notions, John 8:41 was written by mistake. Isn't that so? BTW, I wonder how the Catholic Canon of the NT allow John 8:41 to be there. The truth sometimes has its way to sneak around and be missed among the crowds.

Shibolet
April 3rd, 2015, 12:18 PM
If the 'good' are apparently going to Heaven what's the point in the Earth and why would God create it, or the humans on it, only for them to die and possibly go to Heaven. Seems like a very sub optimal process to me....

Not that I don't agree with you because I do. What beats me is how a Christian exposes such a point of view.

Shibolet
April 3rd, 2015, 12:37 PM
It's weird how people can see the allegory in one place but can't see it in another. While Yeshua stated that Heaven is within us, He didn't mean that Heaven is an esoteric peaceful condition of the mind but rather that the faith which we hold in our hearts, where God wrote His Law, is what determines our destination.

Yeshua said, "I go to prepare a place for you." Whether the place called Heaven is visible to us now or not, it is a tangible place that He went to and likened it to a mansion or insula. It is where God, our very real, tangible Creator lives. Our God is not an esoteric, peaceful condition of the mind. Our God is real, all powerful, ever present and all knowing. He walked and spoke with Adam. He spoke to Moses and the Prophets. He literally led His people out of bondage. The difference between you and I is faith.

Jerusha, do you know the difference between walking by faith and walking by sight? It is the same difference between the Christian faith and that of the Jew. Paul said that Christians walk by faith and not by sight. (II Cor. 5:7) To walk by faith is akin to walking in the dark. To walk by sight is to walk with understanding. Perhaps Paul wanted you to walk by faith and leave the understanding with him.

What kind of Law did God write in your heart, the Law of Moses? Jesus implied in his parable of the Richman and Lazarus that the only way to escape hell-fire is by listening to "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:29-31) Was that the Law God wrote in your heart?

When Yeshua said, "I go to prepare a place for you" where did he in your opinion go? I asked in my prior post if you believed Jesus to be a Jew. If you do, where in your opinion Jesus went, to heaven or to the grave? Use common sense and Logic to answer this question of mine, please. Thanks.

jamie
April 3rd, 2015, 12:59 PM
At least, would you please quote to me where I can read that Jesus founded a new sect within Judaism?


The story begins with Psalm 110:4.

Are you familiar enough with the Bible to connect the dots?

Shibolet
April 3rd, 2015, 01:19 PM
The story begins with Psalm 110:4.

Are you familiar enough with the Bible to connect the dots?

Yes. Originally, that Psalm was written by David thus: "And the Lord said to me..." Since that Psalm was among the Psalms selected to be chanted in the Temple by the Levites, it would have been awkward for them to sing, "The Lord said to me..." Therefore, the Psalm was amended to be read, "The Lord (God) said to my lord (David) sit at My right hand till I make of your enemies your footstool." You may see this in the JPS a Jewish publication of the Tanach. But for Christianity, the KJV adulterated the text to sign Jesus in. If the dead could know what's going on up here, believe me, Jesus would turn in the grave.

patrick jane
April 3rd, 2015, 01:26 PM
Yes. Originally, that Psalm was written by David thus: "And the Lord said to me..." Since that Psalm was among the Psalms selected to be chanted in the Temple by the Levites, it would have been awkward for them to sing, "The Lord said to me..." Therefore, the Psalm was amended to be read, "The Lord (God) said to my lord (David) sit at My right hand till I make of your enemies your footstool." You may see this in the JPS a Jewish publication of the Tanach. But for Christianity, the KJV adulterated the text to sign Jesus in. If the dead could know what's going on up here, believe me, Jesus would turn in the grave.

accept Jesus Christ Is your Lord AND Savior ! ! ! - :Patrol:

Shibolet
April 3rd, 2015, 01:33 PM
accept Jesus Christ Is your Lord AND Savior ! ! ! - :Patrol:

Jesus himself said that HaShem is One and the only Lord. (Mark 12:29) And as being savior is concern, this is according to whom, you or Paul? Alas! All the same to me.