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intojoy
February 1st, 2014, 07:47 PM
• In Greek philosophy the meaning of Logos encompassed two concepts, the concept of reason and the concept of speech.

Logos - Reason and Speech - Idea of God/Expression of God

• Most commentators build a case for Jesus being the fulfillment of the goals of Greek philosophy, in that by reason He was the very idea of God, and that by speech He was the very expression of God.


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intojoy
February 1st, 2014, 07:48 PM
• Discussion question: So where does the Logos of Greek philosophy come from?


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intojoy
February 1st, 2014, 07:58 PM
• A Greek philosopher named Heraclitus first used the term Logos around 600 B.C. to designate the divine reason or plan which coordinates a changing universe. Plato, and the Stoics adopted this philosophy. Stoicism began around 300 B.C. Their concept of the natural order of the universe did not include a personal God, but a distant and remote one who did not interact with humans. In their view, a creator had instituted a natural order within which humans had to exist harmoniously. To the Stoics logos meant the divine animating principle pervading the universe, or a rational divine power that encompassed the idea of nature and fate. It was much like the impersonal, rational energy known as “the force” in Star Wars.

• Greek logos was an “it,” and John's logos is a “He.”


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intojoy
February 1st, 2014, 07:59 PM
• Philo (a Jew who was a contemporary of Jesus) took it up and made it familiar to Jewish readers who were already used to the Hebrew concept of Memra. Philo used allegory to fuse and harmonize Greek philosophy and Judaism. Philo's LOGOS is based on a Greek philosophy of reason, going back to Plato and Stoicism.

• Later church fathers took Philo as their guide rather than Jewish theology. Origen (200 A.D.) introduced allegorical interpretation of the scriptures to the church in an attempt to make Christianity more palatable to the Hellenized world. Allegorical interpretation has been the bane of both Judaism and Christianity, and can be traced back to these philosophical strains.


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intojoy
February 1st, 2014, 08:07 PM
• What those who have studied John's passage through the lens of Greek philosophy forget is that John was not a Greek philosopher but a Jewish fisherman.

• His use of the “Word” is completely consistent with the Jewish concept of the “Memra” (Aramaic for “Word”) that rabbis taught in first century Israel. Their understanding was derived solely from a close study of Scripture, not Greek philosophy.

• John was not trying to promote Greek Hellenized philosophy, with a conception of creation and creator that was incompatible with scripture. Rather, John was using concepts of God that were being taught by the rabbis of Jesus' day, and adding to these concepts based on God's divine revelation.

• We will examine the rabbinic understanding of Memra, but first let's deal with the languages in which this concept is portrayed.


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intojoy
February 1st, 2014, 08:14 PM
• The Hebrew for Word is “Davar.” The Aramaic for Word is “Memra.” The Greek for Word is “Logos.” The Gospel of John was written in Greek, so “Logos” is used. If it had been written in Hebrew it would have been “Davar.” If in Aramiac, “Memra.”

• Aramaic was the vernacular speech of Israel in Jesus' day.

• Much of rabbinic writings were also in Aramaic, so we will develop the six things that the rabbis taught about the Word using their word for it, “Memra.” Within John 1:1-18 we can find all SIX of the concepts the rabbis were teaching in 1st century Israel.

• These six concepts about God are six truths about God that the rabbis could not always explain.

• Likewise these same concepts about God are embodied in Jesus, as they correlate to John's statements about Jesus. Jesus is the Memra, or the Word.


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intojoy
February 1st, 2014, 08:33 PM
Six Things the Rabbis Taught about the Memra



- The Memra was Distinct from God, but the Same as God
• This was a paradox that the rabbis recognized, but were unable to explain.

• John will explain this paradox in the concept of the Tri-unity, or Trinity.

Isaiah 45:1-25, 55:10-11 Hebrews 4:12

The Memra was the Agent of Creation

All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. (John 1:3 NASB)

• God spoke, and creation came into existence.

• Everything that we see in this world exists because of the Memra, the Word.

Psalm 33:4-6, Hebrews 11:3

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intojoy
February 1st, 2014, 08:38 PM
- The Memra was the Agent of Salvation

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, (John 1:12 NASB)

• The Memra, visible to the nation of Israel as He led them through the desert in Exodus, saved them physically. Through the Memra (Jesus) is also spiritual salvation, through faith in His work on the cross.

• So wether physically in the Old Testament, or spiritually through Jesus' work on the cross, the Memra is the agent of salvation.

But there is forgiveness with You, That You may be feared. I wait for the Lord, my soul does wait, And in His word do I hope. My soul waits for the Lord More than the watchmen for the morning; Indeed, more than the watchmen for the morning. O Israel, hope in the Lord; For with the Lord there is lovingkindness, And with Him is abundant redemption. And He will redeem Israel From all his iniquities. (Psalms 130:4-8 NASB)

• Those who receive the Memra (Jesus), are saved by the Memra.





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intojoy
February 1st, 2014, 08:48 PM
- The Memra is the Means by which God Takes on Visible Form

And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. (John 1:14 NASB)

• In Christian theology, these visible manifestations are called a theophany.

• In rabbinic terms this is called the Shechinah (Hebrew). It is the visible manifestation of God's glory, often seen as fire, cloud, or light.

• In John 1:14 the word “dwelt” in Greek is not the usual Greek word used for “dwelling,” but the Greek word used for “to tabernacle,” skeinei.

• John is conveying a specific meaning about Jesus here.

• “Skeinei” is a derivation of the word “Shechinah,” but as there are no “sh” sounds in Greek it became skeinei. The very concept of the word was borrowed from the Hebrew concept. The Memra “tabernacled” among us.

• In the book of Ezekiel, chapters 8-11, we find the account of the Shechinah of the Lord departing from Israel.

• In the incarnation of Jesus, the Shechinah of the Lord had returned to earth, not in the form of light, fire or cloud but in the form of a man of flesh who tabernacled among us.

Six days later, Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John, and brought them up on a high mountain by themselves. And He was transfigured before them; and His garments became radiant and exceedingly white, as no launderer on earth can whiten them. Elijah appeared to them along with Moses; and they were talking with Jesus. Peter said to Jesus, "Rabbi, it is good for us to be here; let us make three tabernacles, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah." For he did not know what to answer; for they became terrified. Then a cloud formed, overshadowing them, and a voice came out of the cloud, "This is My beloved Son, listen to Him!" All at once they looked around and saw no one with them anymore, except Jesus alone. (Mark 9:2-8 NASB)

• The physical body of Jesus veiled the brightness of His glory. Hebrews 10:19-20.

At the mount of transfiguration, three of Jesus' apostles were allowed to see the Shechinah shine through Jesus' flesh.

• John says “and we saw His glory” in John 1:14, which refers to this transfiguration which John beheld along with Peter and James.


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intojoy
February 1st, 2014, 08:52 PM
- The Memra is the Means by which God Signs His Covenants

For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. (John 1:17 NASB)

• This verse is about God's covenants.

• Throughout human history there have been eight covenants, three with humanity and five specifically with the Jewish people.

1. Edenic Covenant

2. Adamic Covenant

3. Noahic Covenant

4. Abrahamic Covenant

5. Mosaic Covenant - the Law, a conditional covenant with Israel.

6. Land Covenant

7. Davidic Covenant

8. New Covenant - prophesied about in Jeremiah 31:31-37. (note that this is a JEWISH COVENANT.)

• The Mosaic Covenant of Exodus 24 was signed and sealed by the Shechinah, as was the Abrahamic in Genesis 15:17.

• The New Covenant was signed and sealed by Jesus' blood being shed on the cross, as described in Hebrews chapters 8-10.

• Jesus (the Memra, the Word) signed and sealed the New Covenant when He lifted the cup of redemption at the last passover, and said “This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood,” in Luke 22:20. See also 1 Corinthians 11:25.


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intojoy
February 1st, 2014, 10:28 PM
- The Memra is the Agent of Revelation

No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him. (John 1:18 NASB)

• The Word, or Memra, is personified as a revealer.

• God revealed Himself when He gave His servants a Word from Him. This is the case when a passage begins with “the Word of the Lord came to...” of which there are many examples in the scriptures. If you do a phrase search on “the word of the Lord” you will find that it comes up well over 300 times in the scriptures.

God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, (Hebrews 1:1-3 NASB)

• Jesus=the Word=the Memra=revealer of the Father.

• This is one of the sub-themes in the book of John, that Jesus came to reveal the Father to men.



Pray for the peace of Jerusalem

intojoy
February 1st, 2014, 10:31 PM
• So keeping in mind these SIX things that the rabbinic scholars of first century Israel were teaching about the Memra, or the Word, we can see that the purpose of John's prologue is not to show that Jesus came to fulfill the ideals of Greek philosophy. Instead John is showing the Church at large that Jesus existed before the world was created, that He was part of the Triunity of God, and that He came to fulfill the New Covenant promised in Scripture.



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intojoy
February 1st, 2014, 11:09 PM
Summary in FOUR points:

1. The Memra came in visible form, that of a human.

2. The world did not recognize Him.

3. His own Jewish people did not recognize Him.

4. Those who did recognize Him became children of Light.



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keypurr
February 1st, 2014, 11:57 PM
Thank you for the information friend, there is a lot to digest here.

chair
February 2nd, 2014, 12:21 AM
Six Things the Rabbis Taught about the Memra
...

Which Rabbis?

journey
February 3rd, 2014, 02:30 AM
Hello intojoy,

Thanks for the interesting word study. I've done some study on "logos" before and found it fascinating.

intojoy
February 3rd, 2014, 02:49 AM
Hello intojoy,

Thanks for the interesting word study. I've done some study on "logos" before and found it fascinating.


Hello. It is obvious to john that Yeshua is God incarnate when we consider first century Jewish thought. In the Greek language there are words like this one logos that simply are the closest available word for Memra and they do not completely convey the full meaning of the word.

The Memra was what happened when God said "let there be light" etc it is the definitive word a verb that was the active force behind what takes place when God speaks creation into existence.

What did God speak into existence?

His creation.

How did He create everything?

With the Memra, the Davar the logos.


Pray for the peace of Jerusalem

This Charming Manc
February 3rd, 2014, 06:25 AM
Though I think you have something to debate and ponder here I think you have two quick brush aside the Greek connection.

When John wrote his Gospel he was living in Ephesus and had been for 20 years, he was writing to a church which was mostly Greek and probably mostly gentile.

The concept of Memra would have been alien to alot of his audience where the logos concept would have been clear to them, though it was probably there within johns knowledge.

John may have been a simple Jewish fisherman circa AD30, but tis obvious from his gospel he was an accomplished academic by the age of AD90 when the gospel was finished.


• So keeping in mind these SIX things that the rabbinic scholars of first century Israel were teaching about the Memra, or the Word, we can see that the purpose of John's prologue is not to show that Jesus came to fulfill the ideals of Greek philosophy. Instead John is showing the Church at large that Jesus existed before the world was created, that He was part of the Triunity of God, and that He came to fulfill the New Covenant promised in Scripture.

Pray for the peace of Jerusalem

Yoḥanon-benYaʿăqov
February 3rd, 2014, 08:41 AM
The Aramaic word – מֵימְרָא – méym’raʾ (which is nothing more that the word – מֵימַר – méymar affixed with the definite article) appears 58 times in Targum Onkelos but never as a standalone.

In each and every occurrence it is the phrase – מֵימְרָא דִּייָ – méym’raʾ diYYa which means “the word for יְיָ” that appears in the text. The character phrase – יְיָ – is the standard abbreviation of the Tetragrammaton. The phrase means “the word for the Tetragrammaton.”

The purpose of using this particular phraseology is – when you see this phrase, and you are reading aloud, substitute whichever word it is that you use in place of the unspeakable Tetragrammaton; Adonay, HaShem, The Lord, etc.

The Hebrew equivalent of this phrase is – הָמִילָה לַייָ – hamiyllah laYYA. The Hebrew word – מִילָּה – miyllah is also the closest Hebrew equivalent to the Greek word λογος – logos.

The word – מימרא – mymrʾ appears 172 times in Targum pseudo-Jonathan. It appears 157 times in the form – מימרא דייי.

There is no hidden secret meaning. The Targumiym are homiletic interpretations of the Hebrew Scriptures written in the Aramaic language. They are not Scripture. Jews are not allowed to write any of the “names” of God on anything that may be defiled or destroyed. This is why the phrase is used. The reader has to insert his own replacement word, nothing more, nothing less.

intojoy
February 3rd, 2014, 12:33 PM
The Aramaic word – מֵימְרָא – méym’raʾ (which is nothing more that the word – מֵימַר – méymar affixed with the definite article) appears 58 times in Targum Onkelos but never as a standalone.

In each and every occurrence it is the phrase – מֵימְרָא דִּייָ – méym’raʾ diYYa which means “the word for יְיָ” that appears in the text. The character phrase – יְיָ – is the standard abbreviation of the Tetragrammaton. The phrase means “the word for the Tetragrammaton.”

The purpose of using this particular phraseology is – when you see this phrase, and you are reading aloud, substitute whichever word it is that you use in place of the unspeakable Tetragrammaton; Adonay, HaShem, The Lord, etc.

The Hebrew equivalent of this phrase is – הָמִילָה לַייָ – hamiyllah laYYA. The Hebrew word – מִילָּה – miyllah is also the closest Hebrew equivalent to the Greek word λογος – logos.

The word – מימרא – mymrʾ appears 172 times in Targum pseudo-Jonathan. It appears 157 times in the form – מימרא דייי.

There is no hidden secret meaning. The Targumiym are homiletic interpretations of the Hebrew Scriptures written in the Aramaic language. They are not Scripture. Jews are not allowed to write any of the “names” of God on anything that may be defiled or destroyed. This is why the phrase is used. The reader has to insert his own replacement word, nothing more, nothing less.


Thank you for your contribution. Even tho I don't understand everything you've noted, I'll send your objection to dr Fruchtenbaum and relay his response. This could take days, weeks or months depending on which part of the world he is currently teaching in.

Shalom


Pray for the peace of Jerusalem

journey
February 3rd, 2014, 04:04 PM
intojoy,

I want to thank you again for this thread. I'm trying to follow along in John 1 and find that I learn new things every time I study this beautiful portion of Scripture. In short, John 1 is a precious masterpiece.

intojoy
February 3rd, 2014, 04:45 PM
intojoy,

I want to thank you again for this thread. I'm trying to follow along in John 1 and find that I learn new things every time I study this beautiful portion of Scripture. In short, John 1 is a precious masterpiece.


Thank you. I'm not a scholar just a student. I did email dr Fruchtenbaum. I'll wait to see if he responds to Ben-yacov

He may very well do so as he is a Jewish patriot and dedicates his life to Jewish evangelism.

He is opening a year round bible school in upstate ny 2015 to disciple gentile and Jewish believers.


Pray for the peace of Jerusalem

journey
February 3rd, 2014, 05:51 PM
Thank you. I'm not a scholar just a student. I did email dr Fruchtenbaum. I'll wait to see if he responds to Ben-yacov

He may very well do so as he is a Jewish patriot and dedicates his life to Jewish evangelism.

He is opening a year round bible school in upstate ny 2015 to disciple gentile and Jewish believers.


Pray for the peace of Jerusalem

Brother, I'm just a student also. I give thanks for God's Word and the freedom to study it. I was just thinking about many in the world who risk their lives to attend a worship service or to even possess God's Word. God has richly blessed us.

intojoy
February 3rd, 2014, 06:53 PM
Brother, I'm just a student also. I give thanks for God's Word and the freedom to study it. I was just thinking about many in the world who risk their lives to attend a worship service or to even possess God's Word. God has richly blessed us.


Roger that. Thanks for mentioning them.


Pray for the peace of Jerusalem

intojoy
February 10th, 2014, 10:17 AM
The Aramaic word – מֵימְרָא – méym’raʾ (which is nothing more that the word – מֵימַר – méymar affixed with the definite article) appears 58 times in Targum Onkelos but never as a standalone.

In each and every occurrence it is the phrase – מֵימְרָא דִּייָ – méym’raʾ diYYa which means “the word for יְיָ” that appears in the text. The character phrase – יְיָ – is the standard abbreviation of the Tetragrammaton. The phrase means “the word for the Tetragrammaton.”

The purpose of using this particular phraseology is – when you see this phrase, and you are reading aloud, substitute whichever word it is that you use in place of the unspeakable Tetragrammaton; Adonay, HaShem, The Lord, etc.

The Hebrew equivalent of this phrase is – הָמִילָה לַייָ – hamiyllah laYYA. The Hebrew word – מִילָּה – miyllah is also the closest Hebrew equivalent to the Greek word λογος – logos.

The word – מימרא – mymrʾ appears 172 times in Targum pseudo-Jonathan. It appears 157 times in the form – מימרא דייי.

There is no hidden secret meaning. The Targumiym are homiletic interpretations of the Hebrew Scriptures written in the Aramaic language. They are not Scripture. Jews are not allowed to write any of the “names” of God on anything that may be defiled or destroyed. This is why the phrase is used. The reader has to insert his own replacement word, nothing more, nothing less.


THIS MAY BE TRUE FOR THAT TARGUM BUT THERE ARE A GOOD NUMBER MORE TARGUMIM WHERE THE TERM IS USED FAR MORE FREQUENTLY AND IN THE VERY SIX WAYS I HAVE LISTED. THE BOOK SHOULD BE PUBLISHED BY THE END OF THIS YEAR AND I WILL BE QUOTING EXAMPLES OF ALL SIX CATEGORIES

A Fruchtenbaum


Posted from the TOL App!

intojoy
April 25th, 2014, 12:34 AM
Note: A Greek philosopher named Heraclitus first used the term Logos around 600 B.C. to designate the divine reason or plan which coordinates a changing universe. Plato, and the Stoics adopted this philosophy. Stoicism began around 300 B.C. Their concept of the natural order of the universe did not include a personal God, but a distant and remote one who did not interact with humans. In their view, a creator had instituted a natural order within which humans had to exist harmoniously. To the Stoics logos meant the divine animating principle pervading the universe, or a rational divine power that encompassed the idea of nature and fate. It was much like the impersonal, rational energy known as “the force” in Star Wars. • Greek logos was an “it,” and John's logos is a “He.” • Philo (a Jew who was a contemporary of Jesus) took it up and made it familiar to Jewish readers who were already used to the Hebrew concept of Memra. Philo used allegory to fuse and harmonize Greek philosophy and Judaism. Philo's LOGOS is based on a Greek philosophy of reason, going back to Plato and Stoicism. • Later church fathers took Philo as their guide rather than Jewish theology. Origen (200 A.D.) introduced allegorical interpretation of the scriptures to the church in an attempt to make Christianity more palatable to the Hellenized world. Allegorical interpretation has been the bane of both Judaism and Christianity, and can be traced back to these philosophical strains.

THE JEWISH FOUNDATION OF THE LIFE OF THE MESSIAH

intojoy
September 5th, 2014, 09:19 PM
• In Greek philosophy the meaning of Logos encompassed two concepts, the concept of reason and the concept of speech.

Logos - Reason and Speech - Idea of God/Expression of God

• Most commentators build a case for Jesus being the fulfillment of the goals of Greek philosophy, in that by reason He was the very idea of God, and that by speech He was the very expression of God.


Pray for the peace of Jerusalem

You can say that again dude

JosephR
September 5th, 2014, 09:39 PM
its mumra! and he was the evil nemesis of the Thunder Cats.

Thunder,,thunder THUNDER CATS!!,,, HOOOOOOOOOO!

keypurr
October 25th, 2014, 10:43 PM
• A Greek philosopher named Heraclitus first used the term Logos around 600 B.C. to designate the divine reason or plan which coordinates a changing universe. Plato, and the Stoics adopted this philosophy. Stoicism began around 300 B.C. Their concept of the natural order of the universe did not include a personal God, but a distant and remote one who did not interact with humans. In their view, a creator had instituted a natural order within which humans had to exist harmoniously. To the Stoics logos meant the divine animating principle pervading the universe, or a rational divine power that encompassed the idea of nature and fate. It was much like the impersonal, rational energy known as “the force” in Star Wars.

• Greek logos was an “it,” and John's logos is a “He.”


Pray for the peace of Jerusalem

Your right, the early bibles used the word "it" in place of "he". It was the KJV that changed it.

Christ is was an "it", a spirit. He was with God before the world was created. Himself being the first of all creation.

chair
October 26th, 2014, 04:47 AM
Six Things the Rabbis Taught about the Memra



- The Memra was Distinct from God, but the Same as God
• This was a paradox that the rabbis recognized, but were unable to explain.

• John will explain this paradox in the concept of the Tri-unity, or Trinity.

Isaiah 45:1-25, 55:10-11 Hebrews 4:12

The Memra was the Agent of Creation

All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. (John 1:3 NASB)

• God spoke, and creation came into existence.

• Everything that we see in this world exists because of the Memra, the Word.

Psalm 33:4-6, Hebrews 11:3

Pray for the peace of Jerusalem

What are these 6 things that the Rabbis taught, and what is your source for them?

ttruscott
October 28th, 2014, 02:13 PM
[QUOTE=intojoy;3775571]
...

• Most commentators build a case for Jesus being the fulfillment of the goals of Greek philosophy, in that by reason He was the very idea of God, and that by speech He was the very expression of God.

/QUOTE]

Greek paganism is Satanic,

Peace, Ted

intojoy
December 19th, 2014, 08:27 PM
The Aramaic word – מֵימְרָא – méym’raʾ (which is nothing more that the word – מֵימַר – méymar affixed with the definite article) appears 58 times in Targum Onkelos but never as a standalone.

In each and every occurrence it is the phrase – מֵימְרָא דִּייָ – méym’raʾ diYYa which means “the word for יְיָ” that appears in the text. The character phrase – יְיָ – is the standard abbreviation of the Tetragrammaton. The phrase means “the word for the Tetragrammaton.”

The purpose of using this particular phraseology is – when you see this phrase, and you are reading aloud, substitute whichever word it is that you use in place of the unspeakable Tetragrammaton; Adonay, HaShem, The Lord, etc.

The Hebrew equivalent of this phrase is – הָמִילָה לַייָ – hamiyllah laYYA. The Hebrew word – מִילָּה – miyllah is also the closest Hebrew equivalent to the Greek word λογος – logos.

The word – מימרא – mymrʾ appears 172 times in Targum pseudo-Jonathan. It appears 157 times in the form – מימרא דייי.

There is no hidden secret meaning. The Targumiym are homiletic interpretations of the Hebrew Scriptures written in the Aramaic language. They are not Scripture. Jews are not allowed to write any of the “names” of God on anything that may be defiled or destroyed. This is why the phrase is used. The reader has to insert his own replacement word, nothing more, nothing less.

When David uses this Word what's the meanin?

"In thy Memra do I put my trust"

If what you say is true and Memra is used by the Jews so as to protect G-d's name, you've made my point in this thread.

intojoy
December 19th, 2014, 08:30 PM
[QUOTE=intojoy;3775571]
...

• Most commentators build a case for Jesus being the fulfillment of the goals of Greek philosophy, in that by reason He was the very idea of God, and that by speech He was the very expression of God.

/QUOTE]

Greek paganism is Satanic,

Peace, Ted

The Memra is the Spirit of God's power in action. Whenever God performs His actions like creation, it is by His Memra His breath.
The Memra became flesh, the active power of God became flesh and dwelt among us and He is the God Man Messiah Yeshua

intojoy
December 19th, 2014, 08:32 PM
The commentaries focused on logos and trying to explain the Hebrew God Man thru greek culture fail to see John's ultimate statement in john 1

That Yeshua is God who added humanity to Himself.

patrick jane
December 19th, 2014, 08:52 PM
:ha:
[QUOTE=ttruscott;4096255]

The Memra is the Spirit of God's power in action. Whenever God performs His actions like creation, it is by His Memra His breath.
The Memra became flesh, the active power of God became flesh and dwelt among us and He is the God Man Messiah Yeshua

i like fancy words like memra. what, am i supposed to look that up ? let's call God's Spirit lskhgk otyu - ist it different now ? well, yeah, cuz i just dropped a word that you never heard

steko
December 19th, 2014, 09:26 PM
:ha:[QUOTE=intojoy;4155576]

i like fancy words like memra. what, am i supposed to look that up ? let's call God's Spirit lskhgk otyu - ist it different now ? well, yeah, cuz i just dropped a word that you never heard

'memra' is the Aramaic equivalent to the Hebrew 'dabar' and the Greek 'logos'.

The Aramaic Targums were used in first century synagogues and the word was used in such a way as to assign personhood to it, just as John does in John 1:1-5 and 1:14 with the word 'logos'.

intojoy
December 19th, 2014, 09:40 PM
John is writing to Jews

intojoy
December 19th, 2014, 09:59 PM
Because John is writing to a jewish audiance he uses logos because greek is the lingo but no greek word carries the theological meaning that Memra brings. Check the context - Jesus is the Breath of God made flesh Jesus is God with us.
The logos that denotes the "concept of thought" to the Greek philosopher has zero to do with what John writes - zero.

steko
December 19th, 2014, 10:26 PM
John is writing to Jews

I think that John was writing to a wider audience and wrote his gospel in the 90's.

steko
December 19th, 2014, 10:27 PM
Because John is writing to a jewish audiance he uses logos because greek is the lingo but no greek word carries the theological meaning that Memra brings. Check the context - Jesus is the Breath of God made flesh Jesus is God with us.
The logos that denotes the "concept of thought" to the Greek philosopher has zero to do with what John writes - zero.

I have no doubt that John packed Hebrew concepts into the Greek 'logos'.


I was actually responding to Patrick Jane and felt that I was actually basically in harmony with your position, which I think I still am.

PneumaPsucheSoma
December 19th, 2014, 11:14 PM
And yet... no mention of Rhema. There is no Logos without Rhema.

steko
December 19th, 2014, 11:40 PM
And yet... no mention of Rhema. There is no Logos without Rhema.

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72243

PneumaPsucheSoma
December 19th, 2014, 11:57 PM
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72243

None of the posts on that thread come close to the lexicography.

Rhema and Logos are inseparable, but distinct. Understanding that (along with hypostasis and prosopon) is the foundational key to knowing the ontological Gospel of Paul.

This is why the ontological Gospel was lost to methodology by the early second century, and ontology has never been truly recovered. The Church-at-large is in infancy declining to full apostasy, unknowingly mistaking elpis (hope/trust) for pistis (faith).

patrick jane
December 20th, 2014, 12:03 AM
[QUOTE=patrick jane;4155598]:ha:

'memra' is the Aramaic equivalent to the Hebrew 'dabar' and the Greek 'logos'.

The Aramaic Targums were used in first century synagogues and the word was used in such a way as to assign personhood to it, just as John does in John 1:1-5 and 1:14 with the word 'logos'.

ok. let's focus on a word. maybe OCD people are compelled to do that, i can only guess. logos ditros foldkops - greek, hebrew, aramaic, chinese. what is your point. can someone reach a point ? what words meant, or even trying to define God's Word is pointless. especially analyzing one word or one scripture. you guys are lost in YOURSELVES, and rely on your OWN understanding. maybe i miss the inital thread post, but i reply only to recent posts. every recent post i see is one person belittling another, with no humbleness or humility, and completely off subject. farce:ha:

steko
December 20th, 2014, 12:07 AM
[QUOTE=steko;4155616]

ok. let's focus on a word. maybe OCD people are compelled to do that, i can only guess. logos ditros foldkops - greek, hebrew, aramaic, chinese. what is your point. can someone reach a point ? what words meant, or even trying to define God's Word is pointless. especially analyzing one word or one scripture. you guys are lost in YOURSELVES, and rely on your OWN understanding. maybe i miss the inital thread post, but i reply only to recent posts. every recent post i see is one person belittling another, with no humbleness or humility, and completely off subject. farce:ha:

I'm sorry that I couldn't be of any help.
I'll likely decline to offer any in th' future.

steko
December 20th, 2014, 12:12 AM
None of the posts on that thread come close to the lexicography.

I just thought that the thread might be of interest.


Rhema and Logos are inseparable, but distinct. Understanding that (along with hypostasis and prosopon) is the foundational key to knowing the ontological Gospel of Paul.

This is why the ontological Gospel was lost to methodology by the early second century, and ontology has never been truly recovered. The Church-at-large is in infancy declining to full apostasy, unknowingly mistaking elpis (hope/trust) for pistis (faith).

I'm familiar with all the words you mentioned.
However, I don't share your conclusions.
It appears to me that you are inclined to a Platonic, Origenistic, Augustinian, allegorical interpretation of the Scriptures.
It just doesn't work for me.

patrick jane
December 20th, 2014, 12:16 AM
[QUOTE=steko;4155616]

ok. let's focus on a word. maybe OCD people are compelled to do that, i can only guess. logos ditros foldkops - greek, hebrew, aramaic, chinese. what is your point. can someone reach a point ? what words meant, or even trying to define God's Word is pointless. especially analyzing one word or one scripture. you guys are lost in YOURSELVES, and rely on your OWN understanding. maybe i miss the inital thread post, but i reply only to recent posts. every recent post i see is one person belittling another, with no humbleness or humility, and completely off subject. farce:ha:

i mean, how many different ways does a person need to HEAR - John 1:1,2. how many translations, concordances and languages does it take ? it's never enough for doubters. instead of Spritual Understanding, keep doubting, disputing and askin questions. where is The Fruit ?;)

PneumaPsucheSoma
December 20th, 2014, 12:53 AM
I just thought that the thread might be of interest.
:)


I'm familiar with all the words you mentioned.
However, I don't share your conclusions.
It appears to me that you are inclined to a Platonic, Origenistic, Augustinian, allegorical interpretation of the Scriptures.
It just doesn't work for me.

I'm non-Platonic, non-Origenistic, anti-Augustinian, and I don't embrace allegoricism; so I'm not sure how you come to that conclusion.

Plato and the other Sophists could only dream of accessing the ontological Gospel, though they all tried. They, nor any others, could ever find the "Philospher's Stone" when it was right there in Paul's Gospel all along.

You'd actually have to reject scripture to NOT utilize the terms I mentioned. Jesus is the express image of God's hypostasis (there aren't three, and a hypostasis isn't a "person"; faith is a hypostasis). And Paul forgave in the prosopon of Christ.

Mary proclaimed, "Be it unto me according to thy rhema. The sword of the Spirit is the Rhema. Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Rhema.

Modern denominationalism and the Word of Faith movement have destroyed and displaced the true meaning. But one can't just ignore the terms, for they are the very foundation of the Gospel that has been turned to methodology for around 1900 years.

Hope/trust (elpis) is not faith (pistis); and that's where the Church is stuck, ignorantly thinking the former is the latter.

It's all because of low-context language and culture, utilized as the devices of Satan to undermine the actual Gospel. The true Gospel hasn't been preached and taught since very shortly after Paul's life. It's declined to methodology instead of ontology.

steko
December 20th, 2014, 09:36 AM
:)



It's all because of low-context language and culture, utilized as the devices of Satan to undermine the actual Gospel. The true Gospel hasn't been preached and taught since very shortly after Paul's life. It's declined to methodology instead of ontology.


So.....no one has been saved from just after Paul's departure until you came on the scene to enlighten us all?

Is that what you are saying?

PneumaPsucheSoma
December 20th, 2014, 11:04 AM
So.....no one has been saved from just after Paul's departure until you came on the scene to enlighten us all?

Is that what you are saying?

Incorrect.

"For we are saved by hope (elpis); but hope that is seen is not hope; for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it."
Romans 8:24-25

Trust/hope (elpis) saves us. It's the potentiality, whereas faith is a hypostasis, and is an actuality... now. Hope is that at physical death, we trust that we'll have the promised everlasting life in Christ.

Elpis is earnest anticipation and expectation with desire, because of promises made. It's not the wishful connotation that is the preeminent English conceptual understanding like "I hope I win the lottery."

And pistis (faith) is the hypostasis (substance) of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen... Now. Faith is walking in and by the Spirit, not the flesh. That's not about having dual natures, which is putting new wine in old wineskins.

Most Biblical "literalists" are actually Biblical Naturalists, presuming "literal" means physical and natural, when spiritual is even more literal than natural.

One must literally put on Christ by faith. That's not figurative, as most Biblical "literalists" have made it.

Paul forgave in the prosopon of Christ. God accepts no man's prosopon. If one has not put on the prosopon of Christ as the fulfillment of the Robe Exchange (1Sam 18:1-4), then one is living merely in elpis. It's salvific, but isn't walking by faith.

Are you crucified with Christ? No, I mean literally; not figuratively or allegorically. You see.... most literalists..... aren't. They're allegoricists because they don't treat the spiritual as literal because its not natural and tangible.

My prosopon is literally crucified with Christ. Reckoned dead by faith. I've been resurrected (my hypostasis - inner man) into HIS prosopon. Now. I don't have to walk merely by hope.

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me;; and the life I now live in the flesh, I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me."
Galatians 2:20

Elpis is not pistis. The Church-at-large is preaching, teaching, and living according to elpis. They're not living according to Paul's ontological Gospel of BEING to DO. They're DOING to BE.

True faith is to rest in Christ and cease from one's own works. That's not happening, because methodology (doing) has replaced ontology (being) since the early apologetics era in the second century, leading into the Romanization of the Church.

And it's never been restored and regained, because elpis "looks" so much like "faith" to those who can't, don't, or won't see the spiritual truth.

By hope, most are putting the new wine of the Holy Spirit into the old wineskins of their own prosopon, rather than hearing God's Rhema for faith to come.

He HATH translated us into the kingdom of His dear Son. I've been translated, yet I'm anchored here to this physical life until physical death manifests. I'm awaiting the redemption of my body in the final resurrection. In the meantime, I'm working out my salvation from my inner man (hypostasis) to my outer man (prosopon).

But I live by pistis, not just elpis. Pistis is a hypostasis and worketh by agape, which abounds in epignosis knowledge, which is a synonym for faith. Those words are VERY important, regardless what English speakers think. It's the difference between hope/trust and faith, presuming the former is the latter.

(And not understanding the ontological Gospel is where all manner of false and divisive doctrines comes from, especially unnecessary Dispensational Eschatology. But when someone HAS elpis but doesn't have pistis from hearing God's Rhema, it's nearly impossible to convince them of anything; because elpis IS trust and they presume there's nothing else.)

The Church is trapped in NeoNomos (new law methodology) and NeoJudaism + Jesus. It's hope, which doth now save them; but it's not faith. The very lexicography for truth (aletheia) illustrates everything I've said.

But few recognize the lexical content in my conversation, preferring proof-texting because most are still all about the death of the letter rather being a living epistle by the life of the Spirit.

In this manner, most pursuing literalism for the text have become allegoricists. I'm crucified. Literally. THAT's literalism. THAT's faith, which is a hypostasis (the absolute assured foundational underlying substantial objective reality of existence). My existence is in Christ. Literally, and for all everlasting.

oatmeal
December 20th, 2014, 11:14 AM
Six Things the Rabbis Taught about the Memra



- The Memra was Distinct from God, but the Same as God
• This was a paradox that the rabbis recognized, but were unable to explain.

• John will explain this paradox in the concept of the Tri-unity, or Trinity.

Isaiah 45:1-25, 55:10-11 Hebrews 4:12

The Memra was the Agent of Creation

All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. (John 1:3 NASB)

• God spoke, and creation came into existence.

• Everything that we see in this world exists because of the Memra, the Word.

Psalm 33:4-6, Hebrews 11:3

Pray for the peace of Jerusalem

With some thought


- The Memra was Distinct from God, but the Same as God
• This was a paradox that the rabbis recognized, but were unable to explain.

is simple to understand

God's word, the logos in writing is theopneustos - God breathed. II Timothy 3:16

The word, the message, that comes out of God's mouth (figuratively speaking, God is spirit, God does not literally have a mouth) is God's words. His communication is His only. It is Him

Even as your words are you, His words are Him.

Yet, as soon as they leave His "mouth" they are distinct from him.

God's written word is distinct from God, yet they communicate God perfectly ( not completely, we have no way to process all that God is).

God's words are God and only God.

God uses one major way to communicate himself as fully as He needs to communicate himself to us, the written word.

From this written word we learn all we need to know of God for the present. It alone instructs us on everything we need to know to live a godly life. II Peter 1:3-4

intojoy
October 6th, 2015, 10:40 PM
• In Greek philosophy the meaning of Logos encompassed two concepts, the concept of reason and the concept of speech.

Logos - Reason and Speech - Idea of God/Expression of God

• Most commentators build a case for Jesus being the fulfillment of the goals of Greek philosophy, in that by reason He was the very idea of God, and that by speech He was the very expression of God.


Pray for the peace of Jerusalem

Memra - God

patrick jane
October 6th, 2015, 10:42 PM
Memra - God

sometimes my memra ain't to good. I forget things

steko
October 6th, 2015, 10:43 PM
Memra - God

:thumb:

Yep!

"And the Memra of GOD walked with Adam in the garden the cool of the day."

steko
October 6th, 2015, 10:45 PM
Memra - God

Do you even get your positive reps on that tapi-talk or what ever it is?

patrick jane
October 6th, 2015, 10:58 PM
Do you even get your positive reps on that tapi-talk or what ever it is?

what is tap-a-talk anyway ?

steko
October 6th, 2015, 11:00 PM
what is tap-a-talk anyway ?

Well.....that's th' question, ain't it?

Hey.....I'm a flat belt pulley sort of guy.

patrick jane
October 7th, 2015, 12:05 AM
Well.....that's th' question, ain't it?

Hey.....I'm a flat belt pulley sort of guy.

V-belt

RBBI
October 7th, 2015, 11:31 AM
Incorrect.

"For we are saved by hope (elpis); but hope that is seen is not hope; for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it."
Romans 8:24-25

Trust/hope (elpis) saves us. It's the potentiality, whereas faith is a hypostasis, and is an actuality... now. Hope is that at physical death, we trust that we'll have the promised everlasting life in Christ.

Elpis is earnest anticipation and expectation with desire, because of promises made. It's not the wishful connotation that is the preeminent English conceptual understanding like "I hope I win the lottery."

And pistis (faith) is the hypostasis (substance) of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen... Now. Faith is walking in and by the Spirit, not the flesh. That's not about having dual natures, which is putting new wine in old wineskins.

Most Biblical "literalists" are actually Biblical Naturalists, presuming "literal" means physical and natural, when spiritual is even more literal than natural.

One must literally put on Christ by faith. That's not figurative, as most Biblical "literalists" have made it.

Paul forgave in the prosopon of Christ. God accepts no man's prosopon. If one has not put on the prosopon of Christ as the fulfillment of the Robe Exchange (1Sam 18:1-4), then one is living merely in elpis. It's salvific, but isn't walking by faith.

Are you crucified with Christ? No, I mean literally; not figuratively or allegorically. You see.... most literalists..... aren't. They're allegoricists because they don't treat the spiritual as literal because its not natural and tangible.

My prosopon is literally crucified with Christ. Reckoned dead by faith. I've been resurrected (my hypostasis - inner man) into HIS prosopon. Now. I don't have to walk merely by hope.

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me;; and the life I now live in the flesh, I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me."
Galatians 2:20

Elpis is not pistis. The Church-at-large is preaching, teaching, and living according to elpis. They're not living according to Paul's ontological Gospel of BEING to DO. They're DOING to BE.

True faith is to rest in Christ and cease from one's own works. That's not happening, because methodology (doing) has replaced ontology (being) since the early apologetics era in the second century, leading into the Romanization of the Church.

And it's never been restored and regained, because elpis "looks" so much like "faith" to those who can't, don't, or won't see the spiritual truth.

By hope, most are putting the new wine of the Holy Spirit into the old wineskins of their own prosopon, rather than hearing God's Rhema for faith to come.

He HATH translated us into the kingdom of His dear Son. I've been translated, yet I'm anchored here to this physical life until physical death manifests. I'm awaiting the redemption of my body in the final resurrection. In the meantime, I'm working out my salvation from my inner man (hypostasis) to my outer man (prosopon).

But I live by pistis, not just elpis. Pistis is a hypostasis and worketh by agape, which abounds in epignosis knowledge, which is a synonym for faith. Those words are VERY important, regardless what English speakers think. It's the difference between hope/trust and faith, presuming the former is the latter.

(And not understanding the ontological Gospel is where all manner of false and divisive doctrines comes from, especially unnecessary Dispensational Eschatology. But when someone HAS elpis but doesn't have pistis from hearing God's Rhema, it's nearly impossible to convince them of anything; because elpis IS trust and they presume there's nothing else.)

The Church is trapped in NeoNomos (new law methodology) and NeoJudaism + Jesus. It's hope, which doth now save them; but it's not faith. The very lexicography for truth (aletheia) illustrates everything I've said.

But few recognize the lexical content in my conversation, preferring proof-texting because most are still all about the death of the letter rather being a living epistle by the life of the Spirit.

In this manner, most pursuing literalism for the text have become allegoricists. I'm crucified. Literally. THAT's literalism. THAT's faith, which is a hypostasis (the absolute assured foundational underlying substantial objective reality of existence). My existence is in Christ. Literally, and for all everlasting.

I waded through this, never having heard some of your terms used before, but I *think* I got the gist of it, and if I do, I agree. If I could try to paraphrase here, everything "they" are taking as allegorical is really literal, and literally available? If this is what you are saying, I agree. The Spirit has led me through things that most people THINK are allegories of spiritual truth but in reality are literal experiences we are SUPPOSED to go through, if we are truly IN CHRIST.

But they became so superstitious and fearful of receiving the wrong spirit, they shunned the real one. Peace

intojoy
October 7th, 2015, 11:43 AM
Do you even get your positive reps on that tapi-talk or what ever it is?

Don't use it anymore

It's a red flag for my wife to catch onto!

Wick Stick
October 7th, 2015, 11:56 AM
I think that John was writing to a wider audience and wrote his gospel in the 90's.
The 90's? Like, he was sitting around jamming with Garth Brooks and Dave Grohl?

:spam:

RBBI
October 7th, 2015, 08:14 PM
Waiting for your reply PneumaPsucheSoma.....Peace

PneumaPsucheSoma
October 16th, 2015, 08:32 AM
Waiting for your reply PneumaPsucheSoma.....Peace

I had unsubscribed to this thread since it has been idle. i just randomly saw your post a few minutes ago.


I waded through this, never having heard some of your terms used before, but I *think* I got the gist of it, and if I do, I agree. If I could try to paraphrase here, everything "they" are taking as allegorical is really literal, and literally available? If this is what you are saying, I agree. The Spirit has led me through things that most people THINK are allegories of spiritual truth but in reality are literal experiences we are SUPPOSED to go through, if we are truly IN CHRIST.

But they became so superstitious and fearful of receiving the wrong spirit, they shunned the real one. Peace

That's maybe an over-simplification, but yes. The intangible and spiritual is quite literal, and has precedence over the natural. Literal does not mean tangible and natural relative to the cosmos.

God is not tangible, and nothing is more literal than God as Creator of all tangibility.

Most modern Literalists are Naturalists; presuming literal somehow excludes the intangible. But the intangible has preeminence of literal reality.

intojoy
June 3rd, 2016, 02:07 AM
• In Greek philosophy the meaning of Logos encompassed two concepts, the concept of reason and the concept of speech.

Logos - Reason and Speech - Idea of God/Expression of God

• Most commentators build a case for Jesus being the fulfillment of the goals of Greek philosophy, in that by reason He was the very idea of God, and that by speech He was the very expression of God.


Pray for the peace of Jerusalem

Another thread where the demons started polytasking


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