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intojoy
September 19th, 2013, 11:46 AM
I'd like to begin listing all of the Old Testament prophecies of the first coming of the Messiah. Hopefully these passages will edify us.

intojoy
September 19th, 2013, 11:47 AM
and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Gen 3:15

This passage teaches that the Messiah will come thru humanity.

intojoy
September 19th, 2013, 11:48 AM
18 and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice. Gen 22:18

This verse teaches that

the Seed of the Woman will be limited as a descendant of Abraham, Messiah will be a Jew.

intojoy
September 19th, 2013, 11:49 AM
10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah,
Nor the ruler’s staff from between his feet,
Until Shiloh come;
And unto him shall the obedience of the peoples be.
Gen 49:10

This passage teaches

the Seed of the Woman and the Seed of Abraham is now limited to being of the specific tribe of Judah.

Messiah will be a king.

Messiah had to come before AD 70.

intojoy
September 19th, 2013, 11:50 AM
17 I see him, but not now;
I behold him, but not nigh:
There shall come forth a star out of Jacob,
And a sceptre shall rise out of Israel,
And shall smite through the corners of Moab,
And break down all the sons of tumult.
Numbers 24:17

This passage teaches

that the Messiah is to be a king.

intojoy
September 19th, 2013, 11:53 AM
15 Jehovah thy God will raise up unto thee a prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; 16 according to all that thou desiredst of Jehovah thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of Jehovah my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not. 17 And Jehovah said unto me, They have well said that which they have spoken. 18 I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee; and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
Deut 18:15-19

This passages teaches

that the Messiah will be a prophet.

intojoy
September 19th, 2013, 12:02 PM
The Prophets:

14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Isaiah 7:14

This verse teaches that

Messiah would be born of a girl who is still a virgin the explanation of Gen 3:15

Messiah will be the God Man

Messiah will be a king

Messiah will have to come before AD 70

jamie
September 19th, 2013, 12:21 PM
18 and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice. Gen 22:18

This verse teaches that

the Seed of the Woman will be limited as a descendant of Abraham, Messiah will be a Jew.


Define Jew. Was Moses a Jew? Was Aaron a Jew?

Abraham never met a Jew. Jacob had twelve sons one of whom was Judah. Jacob was fifteen when Abraham died so Abe never got to meet Judah, the father of the Jews.

Are all Americans Californians?

intojoy
September 19th, 2013, 01:30 PM
Define Jew. Was Moses a Jew? Was Aaron a Jew?

Abraham never met a Jew. Jacob had twelve sons one of whom was Judah. Jacob was fifteen when Abraham died so Abe never got to meet Judah, the father of the Jews.

Are all Americans Californians?

A descendant of Abraham Isaac and Israel is a Jew - biblically

jamie
September 19th, 2013, 01:33 PM
A descendant of Abraham Isaac and Israel is a Jew - biblically

Show me.

intojoy
September 19th, 2013, 03:19 PM
Show me.

Is that a question? Or a commandment? :)

Who-is-a-Jew?
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95453

intojoy
September 19th, 2013, 03:25 PM
14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Isaiah 7:14

This verse teaches that

Messiah would be born of a girl who is still a virgin the explanation of Gen 3:15

Messiah will be the God Man

Messiah will be a king

Messiah will have to come before AD 70

jamie
September 19th, 2013, 03:27 PM
Is that a question? Or a commandment? :)


Neither, it was a request. You are using an undefined term. Abraham was from the Chaldees and the Chaldeans were not Jewish. They were Gentile.

intojoy
September 19th, 2013, 03:29 PM
Make an uproar, O ye peoples, and be broken in pieces; and give ear, all ye of far countries: gird yourselves, and be broken in pieces; gird yourselves, and be broken in pieces. 10 Take counsel together, and it shall be brought to nought; speak the word, and it shall not stand: for God is with us.
Isaiah 8:9-10

Verse 10 literally reads: and it shall not stand because of Immanuel. The real impact of what's being said here gets lost because of the translation of the meaning of the name God with us rather than Immanuel. What this is saying is that God will preserve the house of David because of the Covenant God made with David of an eternal dynasty. Because of the AD 70 destruction of the Jewish temple all of the genealogical records have been lost so it would be impossible to trace the Davidic line after AD 70.

This passage teaches that Messiah must come before the 70 AD destruction of the temple.




6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of Jehovah of hosts will perform this.
Isaiah 9:6-7

This passage teaches that

Messiah will be king

Messiah will be God and Man

Messiah must come before AD 70 to fulfill the Davidic Covenant and because of the destruction of the Temple.

Tambora
September 19th, 2013, 05:06 PM
Nice thread topic.



Messiah must come before AD 70 to fulfill the Davidic Covenant and because of the destruction of the Temple.
Wait.
Do you think the restored kingdom of Israel has already happened before 70 AD?

intojoy
September 19th, 2013, 05:40 PM
Nice thread topic.


Wait.
Do you think the restored kingdom of Israel has already happened before 70 AD?

No. Only the Messiah can bring in the Kingdom
Thx tam - hopefully useful to the Body

intojoy
September 19th, 2013, 05:44 PM
The voice of one that crieth, Prepare ye in the wilderness the way of Jehovah; make level in the desert a highway for our God. 4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low; and the uneven shall be made level, and the rough places a plain: 5 and the glory of Jehovah shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together; for the mouth of Jehovah hath spoken it.
Isaiah 40:3-5

This passage teaches that Messiah

Will have a forerunner.

intojoy
September 19th, 2013, 05:47 PM
1 Behold, my servant, whom I uphold; my chosen, in whom my soul delighteth: I have put my Spirit upon him; he will bring forth justice to the Gentiles. 2 He will not cry, nor lift up his voice, nor cause it to be heard in the street. 3 A bruised reed will he not break, and a dimly burning wick will he not quench: he will bring forth justice in truth. 4 He will not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set justice in the earth; and the isles shall wait for his law. 5 Thus saith God Jehovah, he that created the heavens, and stretched them forth; he that spread abroad the earth and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I, Jehovah, have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thy hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
Isaiah 42:1-6

This passage teaches

Messiah would be anointed by the Holy Spirit

Messiah would conduct Himself in meekness and gentleness

Although Messiahs mission would appear to end in failure it would in fact be a complete success. The success of His ministry actually required His death.

Messiah's mission includes Gentile salvation.

intojoy
September 19th, 2013, 05:50 PM
1 Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye peoples, from far: Jehovah hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name: 2 and he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me: and he hath made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he kept me close: 3 and he said unto me, Thou art my servant; Israel, in whom I will be glorified.
Isaiah 49:1-3

This passage teaches that

Messiah's first coming would be rejected by Israel .

For a time the message of salvation thru Messiah will go out to the Gentiles.

Eventually Israel will receive Messiah; He will be their new covenant.

Israel's acceptance of Messiah will herald the re-gathering of all Jews to the land of Israel.

intojoy
September 19th, 2013, 05:52 PM
7 For the Lord Jehovah will help me; therefore have I not been confounded: therefore have I set my face like a flint, and I know that I shall not be put to shame. 8 He is near that justifieth me; who will contend with me? let us stand up together: who is mine adversary? let him come near to me. 9 Behold, the Lord Jehovah will help me; who is he that shall condemn me? behold, all they shall wax old as a garment, the moth shall eat them up.

Isaiah 50:7-9

This passage teaches

Messiah would receive special training from the God the Father.

Messiah's first coming would be marked by suffering.

Messiah would be obedient to submitting Himself to physical abuse.

intojoy
September 19th, 2013, 05:56 PM
13 Behold, my servant shall deal wisely, he shall be exalted and lifted up, and shall be very high. 14 Like as many were astonished at thee (his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men), 15 so shall he sprinkle many nations; kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they understand.
1 Who hath believed our message? and to whom hath the arm of Jehovah been revealed? 2 For he grew up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3 He was despised, and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and as one from whom men hide their face he was despised; and we esteemed him not. 4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows; yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and Jehovah hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed, yet when he was afflicted he opened not his mouth; as a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and as a sheep that before its shearers is dumb, so he opened not his mouth. 8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who among them considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living for the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due? 9 And they made his grave with the wicked, and with a rich man in his death; although he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. 10 Yet it pleased Jehovah to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of Jehovah shall prosper in his hand. 11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by the knowledge of himself shall my righteous servant justify many; and he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he poured out his soul unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors: yet he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Isaiah 52:13 - 53:13

This passage teaches

Messiah would be born of natural circumstances with no unusual characteristics.

Messiah's first coming would be marked with suffering.

Messiah's first coming would be rejected.

Messiah would undergo a legal trial and be condemned to death.

Messiah would be executed.

Messiah would be buried in a rich man's tomb.

Messiah would be resurrected.

All of the Messiahs suffering and death were to be substitutionary. He died so that we may have life. He died so that our sins could be removed from us. He died so that we may enter into a new relationship with God.

Messiah would bring justification to all who believe in Him.

intojoy
September 19th, 2013, 11:57 PM
1 The Spirit of the Lord Jehovah is upon me; because Jehovah hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; 2 to proclaim the year of Jehovah’s favor, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; 3 to appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them a garland for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they may be called trees of righteousness, the planting of Jehovah, that he may be glorified.
Isaiah 61:1-3

This passage teaches

Messiah would be anointed by the Spirit for His mission.

Messiah would have a prophetic preaching
ministry.

intojoy
September 19th, 2013, 11:59 PM
. 5 Behold, the days come, saith Jehovah, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and he shall reign as king and deal wisely, and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land. 6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely; and this is his name whereby he shall be called: Jehovah our righteousness.
Jeremiah 23:5-6

This passage teaches

Messiah would be a God Man.

The Messiah would be Jehovah Himself; Jehovah would become a man.

Messiah would be a descendant of David and therefore king. Jeremiah here reaffirms the Davidic Covenant (discussed under I Chronicles 17:10b - 14).

intojoy
September 20th, 2013, 12:02 AM
. 2 But thou, Beth-lehem Ephrathah, which art little to be among the thousands of Judah, out of thee shall one come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting.
Micah 5:2

This verse teaches that

Messiah would be born in Bethlehem the city of David.

Messiah would be divine as well as human, having existing from eternity past.

intojoy
September 20th, 2013, 12:10 AM
9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy king cometh unto thee; he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ***, even upon a colt the foal of an ***. 10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem; and the battle bow shall be cut off; and he shall speak peace unto the nations: and his dominion shall be from sea to sea, and from the River to the ends of the earth.
Zachariah 9:9-10

This passage teaches that

Messiah's first coming would be in humility.

Messiah's official presentation as the Messianic King would come when He rides into Jerusalem, riding on the foal of a donkey.

intojoy
September 21st, 2013, 03:38 PM
1 Open thy doors, O Lebanon, that the fire may devour thy cedars. 2 Wail, O fir-tree, for the cedar is fallen, because the goodly ones are destroyed: wail, O ye oaks of Bashan, for the strong forest is come down. 3 A voice of the wailing of the shepherds! for their glory is destroyed: a voice of the roaring of young lions! for the pride of the Jordan is laid waste. 4 Thus said Jehovah my God: Feed the flock of slaughter; 5 whose possessors slay them, and hold themselves not guilty; and they that sell them say, Blessed be Jehovah, for I am rich; and their own shepherds pity them not. 6 For I will no more pity the inhabitants of the land, saith Jehovah; but, lo, I will deliver the men every one into his neighbor’s hand, and into the hand of his king; and they shall smite the land, and out of their hand I will not deliver them. 7 So I fed the flock of slaughter, verily the poor of the flock. And I took unto me two staves; the one I called Beauty, and the other I called Bands; and I fed the flock.
Zachariah 11:1-7

This passage teaches that

Messiah's first coming would be rejected, especially by the Jewish leaders.

While the nation as a whole would reject Messiah there would be a small Remnant of believing people who would accept Him.

The leadership of Israel would sell Him out for thirty pieces of silver.

The results of the rejection would be twofold, first, the protection would be taken away leaving Israel vulnerable to Gentile attack - in AD 70. Second, unity would be removed and Israel would be scattered.

Because they turned away from the true Messiah they would foolishly accept a false messiah. This led to the second devastation of the land in AD 135.

If the destruction described in verses 1-3 were the destruction in AD 70 then the Messiah would have to come before 70 AD.

Messiah is the Good Shepherd Jn 10:11-18

intojoy
September 22nd, 2013, 04:23 AM
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they shall look unto me whom they have pierced; and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his first-born.

Zachariah 12:10

This verse teaches

Messiah's first coming would be rejected by Israel.

Messiah would die a violent death by means of piercing.

Messiah would be both God and man.

intojoy
September 22nd, 2013, 01:29 PM
7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith Jehovah of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered; and I will turn my hand upon the little ones.

Zachariah 13:7

This verse teaches

Messiah will be a God - Man.

Messiah's death would be violent.

Messiah's death would cause the dispersion of Israel.

intojoy
September 24th, 2013, 12:58 AM
1 Behold, I send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, will suddenly come to his temple; and the messenger of the covenant, whom ye desire, behold, he cometh, saith Jehovah of hosts.

Malachi 3:1

This verse teaches that Messiah will have a forerunner.

intojoy
September 24th, 2013, 12:59 AM
THE WRITINGS

intojoy
September 24th, 2013, 01:06 AM
10 and as from the day that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel; and I will subdue all thine enemies. Moreover I tell thee that Jehovah will build thee a house. 11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days are fulfilled that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will set up thy seed after thee, who shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom. 12 He shall build me a house, and I will establish his throne for ever. 13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my lovingkindness away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee; 14 but I will settle him in my house and in my kingdom for ever; and his throne shall be established for ever.

II Chronicles 17:10b - 14

This passage teaches that

Messiah will be a son of David descended from a different line than Jechoniah.

Since all tribal and genealogical records were destroyed with temple in 70 AD, Messiah had to come before that time.

Messiah would live eternally.

Messiah would be a king.

intojoy
September 24th, 2013, 01:11 AM
7 I will tell of the decree:
Jehovah said unto me, Thou art my son;
This day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of me, and I will give thee the nations for thine inheritance,
And the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron;
Thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.
10 Now therefore be wise, O ye kings:
Be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11 Serve Jehovah with fear,
And rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the son, lest he be angry, and ye perish in the way,
For his wrath will soon be kindled.
Blessed are all they that take refuge in him.

Psalm 2:7-12

This passage teaches that

Messiah would be the Son of God.

Messiah will be a king in Jerusalem.

Messiah will also rule over the Gentiles.

intojoy
September 25th, 2013, 07:35 PM
1 Preserve me, O God; for in thee do I take refuge.
2 O my soul, thou hast said unto Jehovah, Thou art my Lord:
I have no good beyond thee.
3 As for the saints that are in the earth,
They are the excellent in whom is all my delight.
4 Their sorrows shall be multiplied that give gifts for another god:
Their drink-offerings of blood will I not offer,
Nor take their names upon my lips.
5 Jehovah is the portion of mine inheritance and of my cup:
Thou maintainest my lot.
6 The lines are fallen unto me in pleasant places;
Yea, I have a goodly heritage.
7 I will bless Jehovah, who hath given me counsel;
Yea, my heart instructeth me in the night seasons.
8 I have set Jehovah always before me:
Because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved.
9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth:
My flesh also shall dwell in safety.
10 For thou wilt not leave my soul to Sheol;
Neither wilt thou suffer thy holy one to see corruption.
11 Thou wilt show me the path of life:
In thy presence is fulness of joy;
In thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

Psalm16

This passage teaches that

Messiah would enjoy a unique relationship with God the Father. This aspect of Messiah's life is particularly brought out by the Gospel of John.

Messiah would die.

Messiah would be raised back to life.

intojoy
September 26th, 2013, 01:13 AM
For the Chief Musician; set to Aijaleth hash-Shahar. A Psalm of David.

1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my groaning?
2 O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou answerest not;
And in the night season, and am not silent.
3 But thou art holy,
O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
4 Our fathers trusted in thee:
They trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered:
They trusted in thee, and were not put to shame.
6 But I am a worm, and no man;
A reproach of men, and despised of the people.
7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn:
They shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
8 Commit thyself unto Jehovah;
Let him deliver him:
Let him rescue him, seeing he delighteth in him.
9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb;
Thou didst make me trust when I was upon my mother’s breasts.
10 I was cast upon thee from the womb;
Thou art my God since my mother bare me.
11 Be not far from me; for trouble is near;
For there is none to help.
12 Many bulls have compassed me;
Strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
13 They gape upon me with their mouth,
As a ravening and a roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water,
And all my bones are out of joint:
My heart is like wax;
It is melted within me.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd;
And my tongue cleaveth to my jaws;
And thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
16 For dogs have compassed me:
A company of evil-doers have inclosed me;
They pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I may count all my bones.
They look and stare upon me;
18 They part my garments among them,
And upon my vesture do they cast lots.
19 But be not thou far off, O Jehovah:
O thou my succor, haste thee to help me.
20 Deliver my soul from the sword,
My darling from the power of the dog.
21 Save me from the lion’s mouth;
Yea, from the horns of the wild-oxen thou hast answered me.
22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren:
In the midst of the assembly will I praise thee.
23 Ye that fear Jehovah, praise him;
All ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him;
And stand in awe of him, all ye the seed of Israel.
24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted;
Neither hath he hid his face from him;
But when he cried unto him, he heard.
25 Of thee cometh my praise in the great assembly:
I will pay my vows before them that fear him.
26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied;
They shall praise Jehovah that seek after him:
Let your heart live for ever.
27 All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn unto Jehovah;
And all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
28 For the kingdom is Jehovah’s;
And he is the ruler over the nations.
29 All the fat ones of the earth shall eat and worship:
All they that go down to the dust shall bow before him,
Even he that cannot keep his soul alive.
30 A seed shall serve him;
It shall be told of the Lord unto the next generation.
31 They shall come and shall declare his righteousness
Unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done it.

Psalm 22

This passage teaches that

In extreme agony Messiah would cry out for God's help.

Messiah would be a despised and rejected individual.

The Messiah's bones would all be pulled out of joint.

The Messiah's heart would rupture.

Messiah would suffer an extreme degree of thirst.

Messiah's hands and feet would be pierced.

Messiah's clothing would be divided by casting of lots.

At the point of death Messiah's trust would be in God the Father.

Messiah would be resurrected.

intojoy
September 26th, 2013, 03:01 PM
17 Let thy hand be upon the man of thy right hand,
Upon the son of man whom thou madest strong for thyself.

Psalm 80:17

This verse teaches

Messiah would be seated at the right hand of God the Father.

Messiah must be equal to the Father to sit at God the Father's right hand therefore Messiah must be both God and man.

intojoy
September 27th, 2013, 01:20 AM
A Psalm of David.
1 Jehovah saith unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand,
Until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
2 Jehovah will send forth the rod of thy strength out of Zion:
Rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
3 Thy people offer themselves willingly
In the day of thy power, in holy array:
Out of the womb of the morning
Thou hast the dew of thy youth.
4 Jehovah hath sworn, and will not repent:
Thou art a priest for ever
After the order of Melchizedek.
5 The Lord at thy right hand
Will strike through kings in the day of his wrath.
6 He will judge among the nations,
He will fill the places with dead bodies;
He will strike through the head in many countries.
7 He will drink of the brook in the way:
Therefore will he lift up the head.

Psalm 110

This psalm teaches

Messiah would be both king and priest, after the order of Melchizadek.

Messiah would have to be both God and man. To be priest He would have to be man but to sit at the right hand of God He would have to be equal with God.

Messiah's first coming would be rejected.

After Messiah was rejected, He would ascend into heaven.

After His ascension Messiah would sit down at God's right hand.

Messiah will return when Israel accepts Him.

Messiah will rule over Israel in the Messianic Kingdom.

intojoy
September 28th, 2013, 03:28 AM
4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, and descended?
Who hath gathered the wind in his fists?
Who hath bound the waters in his garment?
Who hath established all the ends of the earth?
What is his name, and what is his son’s name, if thou knowest?

Proverbs 30:4

This verse teaches

Messiah would be uniquely the Son of God.

intojoy
September 28th, 2013, 08:26 PM
24 Seventy weeks are decreed upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy. 25 Know therefore and discern, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the anointed one, the prince, shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: it shall be built again, with street and moat, even in troublous times. 26 And after the threescore and two weeks shall the anointed one be cut off, and shall have nothing: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and even unto the end shall be war; desolations are determined. 27 And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease; and upon the wing of abominations shall come one that maketh desolate; and even unto the full end, and that determined, shall wrath be poured out upon the desolate.

Daniel 9:24-27

This passage teaches that

Messiah would be present 483 after the decree to rebuild Jerusalem.

Media would be legally executed.

Messiahs death would result in the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem.

Messiah's birth and death therefore had to have taken place before AD 70.

Yoḥanon-benYaʿăqov
December 29th, 2013, 09:31 AM
Well, I took a look at your thread, just as I told you I would do. But all I see is a rather incomplete list of the same old, over regurgitated, so-called “proof texts” which have been spewed by chr-stians for decades.

During my lifetime I have watched this list grow from about 40 or 50 to the over 400 of them that exist today. As time passes they just keep getting more and more ridiculous.

Usually out of the lists of 350, 400 and more they usually include precisely 2 authentic messianic prophecies Y’sha’yahu chapter 2 and Y’sha’yahu chapter 11. But, you seem to have omitted the only two legitimate messianic prophecies, which are normally on the other lists, from your list,.

All of these so-called “proof texts” are a prime example of circular reasoning. The only way anyone is going to believe that any of these English translation “proof texts” refer to chr-stianity’s Yéshu is if they believe that he was a real person who actually existed at some point in time to begin with; and that the far-fetched tall tales written about him in the chr-stian texts are something other than the fiction that they are.

If you spout these to any Jew who has the most rudimentary form of education, all you are going to get is a good laugh. Proper translation defeats 80% them, and context defeats all of them.

There are only about 2 dozen or so authentic messianic prophecies found throughout the Hebrew Scriptures and out of these only about 4 or 5 even tacitly speak about the future King who will sit on the throne of David in Y’rushalaim.

HaMashiyaḥ will be an adult male, Y-chromosome descendent of both David and Sh’lomoh, living in ʾEretz Yis’raél at the time God selects him out of the multitudes of sons of David. HaMashiyaḥ will not be selected until all of the ten lost tribes of the former Northern Kingdom of Yis’raél and the three scattered tribes of the former Kingdom of Y’hudah are reunited as one unified nation in ʿEretz Yis’raél.

At last count, the ten lost tribes have been lost for 2,734 years and still counting. The nation of Y’hudah was not completely scattered until about 135 CE, over 100 years after Yéshu supposedly died. How could anyone be eligible for the position of Mashiyaḥ when one of the major pre-pre-requisites had not even been met? Y’hudah has to be scattered before it can be gathered, and that scattering did not occur during Yéshu’s alleged lifetime.

Jews are forbidden from even associating with the vast majority of things that chr-stians believe. Nothing is more pagan than the belief that any god would impregnate any human female and produce a demigod. Nothing is more blasphemous than believing that the God of Yis’raél would commit adultery with any man’s wife. God created man out of dust, why would He need to rape someone’s wife to produce a King that never even became King?

Everything about chr-stianity is the exact polar opposite of Judaism. In reality, your so-called christ is the epitome of anti-christ. He is exactly the opposite of everything that the future King is supposed to be.

I honestly see no need in picking these apart one by one, especially considering that chr-stianity’s Yéshu is a fictional character created by the pagan Emperor Theodosius I of Rome in 380 CE in an attempt to unite the Empire under one unified religion. Chr-stianity was created as an amalgamation of all existing pagan religions and mystery cults that existed at the time. He figured that if he took all existing religions and shook them up in a big pot and dumped it out with new names everyone would eagerly jump on the band wagon. He only called him the Jewish Messiah in an attempt to get the Jews to play along. We did not and it led to a 1,600 year attempt to massacre all of the Jews. Newsflash: we are still here! And the whole world is plagued by the “abomination of desolation” that is chr-stianity.

However there is at least one p'suq that you "quoted" that I will comment on, perhaps more but I haven’t decided yet.

Yoḥanon-benYaʿăqov
December 29th, 2013, 09:44 AM
Y’sha’yahu 7:14 is probably the most deceitfully translated verse in the Hebrew Scriptures. What it actually says is:



לָ֠כֵן יִתֵּ֨ן אֲדֹנָ֥י ה֛וּא לָכֶ֖ם אֹ֑ות הִנֵּ֣ה הָעַלְמָ֗ה הָרָה֙ וְיֹלֶ֣דֶת בֵּ֔ן וְקָרָ֥את שְׁמֹ֖ו עִמָּ֥נוּ אֵֽל׃
Laḵén yittén ʾĂdonay Huʾ laḵem ʾot hinnéh haʿal’mah harah v’yoledet bén v’qaraʾt sh’mo ʿImmanu ʾÉl:

“Because of this my Lord will give you a sign: Look! That girl is pregnant and she is giving birth to a son. And she will call his name ʿImannu ʾÉl.”

There is absolutely nothing in this p’suq about any virgin at all. There is absolutely nothing in this p’suq about any future pregnancy. There is absolutely nothing in this p’suq about any future birth. The only remark in this passage that refers to any future event is that she “will” at some point in the future, probably 8 days later, name him ʿImmanu ʾÉl.

At the time that Y’sha’yahu is pointing at this pregnant girl, telling Aḥaz to look at her, she is in the midst of heavy labor. She is in the process of giving birth to a child as they are speaking. P’suq 14 is not the sign being given to Aḥaz, the actual sign is given in the subsequent p’suqim. The child will be fed curdled cream and honey to expedite his understanding of what tastes bad and what tastes good. Before this newborn infant is old enough to discern the difference between what tastes bad and what tastes good, the two kings that ʾAḥaz has been fearing will be no more.

This was a sign, not a prophecy, not a prediction of the future, a clear and present sign. “See this baby that is being born as we speak. Before he is old enough to tell the difference between what tastes good and what tastes bad the Kingdoms you fear will be no more.

This was fulfilled in 722 BCE. It is not messianic, it does not refer to the messianic age in any manner, shape or form, and certainly has nothing to do with any “virgin” becoming pregnant at any time.

jamie
December 29th, 2013, 09:57 AM
John, does this mean you don't accept that Jesus is the Christ, the YHVH Elohim of Israel, the one who brought Jacob's people out of Egypt?

I hope Jesus is not too disappointed by your rejection. But then he is not soliciting your vote to be the head of the world's government, he will just claim the spot when the time comes.

Yoḥanon-benYaʿăqov
December 29th, 2013, 11:08 AM
Yamiy,

Apparently you believe in the chr-stian mythological fairy tale. I on the other hand do not. Please do not confuse your Peter Pan like imaginary god-man with the God of Yis’raél. That is very demeaning to God, which is called blasphemy. I have no problem with you following your pagan beliefs, but please leave the Gof of Yis’raél out of it.

If nothing else, just as an act of the supposed “chr-stian kindness.”

Doormat
December 29th, 2013, 01:05 PM
Jews are forbidden from even associating with the vast majority of things that chr-stians believe.

Not all Christians believe the same thing.



Nothing is more pagan than the belief that any god would impregnate any human female and produce a demigod.

God forms all children in the womb. He opens and closes the womb. Do you disagree?



Nothing is more blasphemous than believing that the God of Yis’raél would commit adultery with any man’s wife.

It is not committing adultery with a man's wife for God to form a child in her womb, even without the man's consent or contribution of seed.



God created man out of dust, why would He need to rape someone’s wife to produce a King that never even became King?

Parthenogenesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthenogenesis#Humans) is not rape.



Everything about chr-stianity is the exact polar opposite of Judaism. In reality, your so-called christ is the epitome of anti-christ. He is exactly the opposite of everything that the future King is supposed to be.

Do you believe Zechariah 9:9 is a prophecy about the "future King?"



I honestly see no need in picking these apart one by one, especially considering that chr-stianity’s Yéshu is a fictional character created by the pagan Emperor Theodosius I of Rome in 380 CE in an attempt to unite the Empire under one unified religion.

Christians believed that Jesus was a real person before that time, proven by the New Testament writings and Anti-Nicene Christian writings.

Brother Vinny
December 29th, 2013, 01:10 PM
and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Gen 3:15

This passage teaches that the Messiah will come thru humanity.

Not only this, but the seed would specifically be of woman, but not of man--typically, when speaking of someone, that person would be said to be of his father's seed. It is telling that Messiah would be human through His mother exclusively here.

intojoy
December 29th, 2013, 01:23 PM
Y’sha’yahu 7:14 is probably the most deceitfully translated verse in the Hebrew Scriptures. What it actually says is:



לָ֠כֵן יִתֵּ֨ן אֲדֹנָ֥י ה֛וּא לָכֶ֖ם אֹ֑ות הִנֵּ֣ה הָעַלְמָ֗ה הָרָה֙ וְיֹלֶ֣דֶת בֵּ֔ן וְקָרָ֥את שְׁמֹ֖ו עִמָּ֥נוּ אֵֽל׃
Laḵén yittén ʾĂdonay Huʾ laḵem ʾot hinnéh haʿal’mah harah v’yoledet bén v’qaraʾt sh’mo ʿImmanu ʾÉl:

“Because of this my Lord will give you a sign: Look! That girl is pregnant and she is giving birth to a son. And she will call his name ʿImannu ʾÉl.”

There is absolutely nothing in this p’suq about any virgin at all. There is absolutely nothing in this p’suq about any future pregnancy. There is absolutely nothing in this p’suq about any future birth. The only remark in this passage that refers to any future event is that she “will” at some point in the future, probably 8 days later, name him ʿImmanu ʾÉl.

At the time that Y’sha’yahu is pointing at this pregnant girl, telling Aḥaz to look at her, she is in the midst of heavy labor. She is in the process of giving birth to a child as they are speaking. P’suq 14 is not the sign being given to Aḥaz, the actual sign is given in the subsequent p’suqim. The child will be fed curdled cream and honey to expedite his understanding of what tastes bad and what tastes good. Before this newborn infant is old enough to discern the difference between what tastes bad and what tastes good, the two kings that ʾAḥaz has been fearing will be no more.

This was a sign, not a prophecy, not a prediction of the future, a clear and present sign. “See this baby that is being born as we speak. Before he is old enough to tell the difference between what tastes good and what tastes bad the Kingdoms you fear will be no more.

This was fulfilled in 722 BCE. It is not messianic, it does not refer to the messianic age in any manner, shape or form, and certainly has nothing to do with any “virgin” becoming pregnant at any time.


Thank you for looking here. I got this information from Ariel.org.

I've learned about the extreme cruelty done to your people in the name of "Christ" and as a Christian I owe the Jews a lot of kindness. I do not share Jamie or doormat's doctrines. I'm also not a scholar and have to rely on what they have said on these prophetic passages. I do agree with Ariel ministries in their interpretations of this subject but do not desire to debate with you. I respect your rejection. I could only state that for someone as yourself who is affected personally by those who claim to believe in the Jewish Messiah that there are many variations of false doctrines concerning Yeshua of the first century.

I asked the writer of these quotes from Messianic Christology what he preferred to be identified as. He said that he did not like to use "messianic Judaism" because Yeshua and Judaism are worlds apart as you confirmed in your post. If you ever desire to debate with those Jews that see as you do the inability for Yeshua to be the Messiah in harmony with Judaism, I believe you can avoid those who think Yeshua taught Judaism or think that following Yeshua is predicated by keeping Torah and save yourself the energy by contacting them personally. Dr Arnold Fruchtenbaum is one of our generations greatest scholars.

Your friend,

Intojoy

Princely
December 29th, 2013, 03:51 PM
7 I will tell of the decree:
Jehovah said unto me, Thou art my son;
This day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of me, and I will give thee the nations for thine inheritance,
And the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron;
Thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.
10 Now therefore be wise, O ye kings:
Be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11 Serve Jehovah with fear,
And rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the son, lest he be angry, and ye perish in the way,
For his wrath will soon be kindled.
Blessed are all they that take refuge in him.

Psalm 2:7-12

This passage teaches that

Messiah would be the Son of God.

Messiah will be a king in Jerusalem.

Messiah will also rule over the Gentiles.

No, this passage shows that those who declare the word of the Lord are begotten sons of God. As God said; Israel is my son, my firstborn, let my son go so he can serve me.

The son of God is the chosen, the servant of God.

"The Lord has redeemed Jacob and shows His glory through Israel."

freelight
January 25th, 2014, 03:04 AM
I'd like to begin listing all of the Old Testament prophecies of the first coming of the Messiah. Hopefully these passages will edify us.

I think you might note that no traditional-orthodox Jew accepts these 'Christian' assumptions taken from the OT used as 'messianic' prophesies for Jesus....so these are exclusively a traditional Christian 'assumption' from which its 'Christology' is based. In this light, the term 'Messianic Christology' is an 'oxy-moron' of sorts. Various Jewish anti-missionary ministries address every one of the so called 'messianic' prophecies, and if Jesus fulfilled them, they would acccept him as their 'Jewish Messiah'.

links -

Seeing thru the assumptions (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3631445&postcount=701)

Could you also address Uri Yosef's article -

Jewish Messiah Wanted (http://thejewishhome.org/counter/Wanted.pdf)

Adding to what Yoḥanon-benYaʿăqov shared,....Christianity is a morphed religion of various traditions and schools, further evolved over time, shaped by so many forces......like other religious cultures of course, but more peculiar in some fashion. The problem is further compounded on whether orthodox Jews will accept Jesus on his second time around (2nd coming), if he will be able to fulfill their formal requirements for being THEIR Messiah (not 'Christ' the god-man). It gets more complex of course considering all the other evolved and synthesized concepts of the 'Christ' figure and how this will all play out as we spiritually advance towards a 'new age'.

A better solution for Jews and Christians might be looking beyond certain 'messianic' assumptions and heeding the teaching of Jesus about the kingdom and the 'Fatherhood of God & Brotherhood of Man' theme which he served as a visionary for. He calls all back to the fundamental universal laws, of respect for 'God' and others, self-surrender, love, altruism, forgiveness, peace-making, purity of heart, humility, compassion, service.

Moreover, let us note that until we are the 'Messiah' or the 'Christ' in the earth, acting as the living-agency and Spirit-messengers of 'God', may we affect change and transformation in the world, while doctrinal debates of lesser importance may serve little towards that end, unless such equations actually serve to spiritually empower or inspire us to do His will. The 'Messiah' or 'Christ' in both Jewish and Christian traditions is a 'collective' anyways, no matter what head-figure is anointed to lead the company. - the 'corporation' is always essentially in 'spirit'.



pj

Elia
January 25th, 2014, 11:10 AM
17 I see him, but not now;
I behold him, but not nigh:
There shall come forth a star out of Jacob,
And a sceptre shall rise out of Israel,
And shall smite through the corners of Moab,
And break down all the sons of tumult.
Numbers 24:17

This passage teaches

that the Messiah is to be a king.

Bs'd

JC NEVER was a king, so here we have yet another proof that JC was NOT the messiah!

Zeke
January 25th, 2014, 11:13 AM
I think you might note that no traditional-orthodox Jew accepts these 'Christian' assumptions taken from the OT used as 'messianic' prophesies for Jesus....so these are exclusively a traditional Christian 'assumption' from which its 'Christology' is based. In this light, the term 'Messianic Christology' is an 'oxy-moron' of sorts. Various Jewish anti-missionary ministries address every one of the so called 'messianic' prophecies, and if Jesus fulfilled them, they would acccept him as their 'Jewish Messiah'.

links -

Seeing thru the assumptions (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3631445&postcount=701)

Could you also address Uri Yosef's article -

Jewish Messiah Wanted (http://thejewishhome.org/counter/Wanted.pdf)

Adding to what Yoḥanon-benYaʿăqov shared,....Christianity is a morphed religion of various traditions and schools, further evolved over time, shaped by so many forces......like other religious cultures of course, but more peculiar in some fashion. The problem is further compounded on whether orthodox Jews will accept Jesus on his second time around (2nd coming), if he will be able to fulfill their formal requirements for being THEIR Messiah (not 'Christ' the god-man). It gets more complex of course considering all the other evolved and synthesized concepts of the 'Christ' figure and how this will all play out as we spiritually advance towards a 'new age'.

A better solution for Jews and Christians might be looking beyond certain 'messianic' assumptions and heeding the teaching of Jesus about the kingdom and the 'Fatherhood of God & Brotherhood of Man' theme which he served as a visionary for. He calls all back to the fundamental universal laws, of respect for 'God' and others, self-surrender, love, altruism, forgiveness, peace-making, purity of heart, humility, compassion, service.

Moreover, let us note that until we are the 'Messiah' or the 'Christ' in the earth, acting as the living-agency and Spirit-messengers of 'God', may we affect change and transformation in the world, while doctrinal debates of lesser importance may serve little towards that end, unless such equations actually serve to spiritually empower or inspire us to do His will. The 'Messiah' or 'Christ' in both Jewish and Christian traditions is a 'collective' anyways, no matter what head-figure is anointed to lead the company. - the 'corporation' is always essentially in 'spirit'.



pj

Plus the metaphorical nature of the writings by the prophets, and later revelations show that the Divine spark, or Messiah story is painted on a inner canvas, Jesus was made into another embellished heroic icon for the money changers to sell in the markets place of religious trinkets.

Daniel's capitalized Messiah is a suspicious inference into the text.

Elia
January 25th, 2014, 11:20 AM
The Prophets:

14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Isaiah 7:14

This verse teaches that

Messiah would be born of a girl who is still a virgin the explanation of Gen 3:15

Messiah will be the God Man

Messiah will be a king

Messiah will have to come before AD 70

Bs'd

Of course this verse says no such a thing.

For more info on Isaiah 7, look here: http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91870

intojoy
January 25th, 2014, 11:40 AM
I think you might note that no traditional-orthodox Jew accepts these 'Christian' assumptions taken from the OT used as 'messianic' prophesies for Jesus....so these are exclusively a traditional Christian 'assumption' from which its 'Christology' is based. In this light, the term 'Messianic Christology' is an 'oxy-moron' of sorts. Various Jewish anti-missionary ministries address every one of the so called 'messianic' prophecies, and if Jesus fulfilled them, they would acccept him as their 'Jewish Messiah'.



links -



Seeing thru the assumptions (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3631445&postcount=701)



Could you also address Uri Yosef's article -



Jewish Messiah Wanted (http://thejewishhome.org/counter/Wanted.pdf)



Adding to what Yoḥanon-benYaʿăqov shared,....Christianity is a morphed religion of various traditions and schools, further evolved over time, shaped by so many forces......like other religious cultures of course, but more peculiar in some fashion. The problem is further compounded on whether orthodox Jews will accept Jesus on his second time around (2nd coming), if he will be able to fulfill their formal requirements for being THEIR Messiah (not 'Christ' the god-man). It gets more complex of course considering all the other evolved and synthesized concepts of the 'Christ' figure and how this will all play out as we spiritually advance towards a 'new age'.



A better solution for Jews and Christians might be looking beyond certain 'messianic' assumptions and heeding the teaching of Jesus about the kingdom and the 'Fatherhood of God & Brotherhood of Man' theme which he served as a visionary for. He calls all back to the fundamental universal laws, of respect for 'God' and others, self-surrender, love, altruism, forgiveness, peace-making, purity of heart, humility, compassion, service.



Moreover, let us note that until we are the 'Messiah' or the 'Christ' in the earth, acting as the living-agency and Spirit-messengers of 'God', may we affect change and transformation in the world, while doctrinal debates of lesser importance may serve little towards that end, unless such equations actually serve to spiritually empower or inspire us to do His will. The 'Messiah' or 'Christ' in both Jewish and Christian traditions is a 'collective' anyways, no matter what head-figure is anointed to lead the company. - the 'corporation' is always essentially in 'spirit'.







pj


I'm not the expert. I'm merely a gentile believer in the Messianic claims of Yeshua of the first century based on these scriptures.

It is true that modern orthodox. Judaism rejects some of these passages as being messianic prophecies but the rabbis all agreed that they were messianic prophecies until the 12th century


Pray for the peace of Jerusalem

freelight
January 27th, 2014, 11:01 PM
I'm not the expert. I'm merely a gentile believer in the Messianic claims of Yeshua of the first century based on these scriptures.

It is true that modern orthodox. Judaism rejects some of these passages as being messianic prophecies but the rabbis all agreed that they were messianic prophecies until the 12th century

Pray for the peace of Jerusalem

The facts however remain that the Jews would know how to 'interpret' their own scriptures, specifically those that are 'messianic' in nature, which the resource-links would help to illuminate, that is if any are interested in a proper education. In any debate all tenable and possible points of view must be weighed and considered honestly.

We've also explored the 'virigin birth' belief here (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3769632&postcount=76).

Can you provide support for the claim of the 12th century being the time rabbis for some reason rejected some passages as 'messianic' and the reasons why?



pj

freelight
January 27th, 2014, 11:04 PM
Plus the metaphorical nature of the writings by the prophets, and later revelations show that the Divine spark, or Messiah story is painted on a inner canvas, Jesus was made into another embellished heroic icon for the money changers to sell in the markets place of religious trinkets.

Daniel's capitalized Messiah is a suspicious inference into the text.


Paul summarizes the esoteric teaching in the mystery hidden from ancient times,....'Christ in us, the hope of glory',....the 'Christ-story' being Man's own story of his spiritual process of birth, death, resurrection, ascension, where the people of 'God' are all the collective Messiah, illumined by the inner Christ. These gnostic goodies inhere as the universal truth-teachings of the ages ;)



pj

Elia
March 27th, 2014, 11:42 PM
It is true that modern orthodox. Judaism rejects some of these passages as being messianic prophecies but the rabbis all agreed that they were messianic prophecies until the 12th century

Bs'd

From where do you get this crazy and wrong idea??

wordsponge
March 28th, 2014, 12:09 AM
Bs'd

From where do you get this crazy and wrong idea??

Hello brother,
Nice to see you back.. :)

Keep well,

Elia
March 28th, 2014, 12:17 AM
Bs'd

Read here how the Christians rip Tanach texts which have no bearing on the messiah whatsoever out of context, and present them as "messianic prophecies": https://sites.google.com/site/777mountzion/324x0

Elia
March 28th, 2014, 12:17 AM
Hello brother,
Nice to see you back.. :)

Keep well,

Bs'd

Shalom Aleichem!

Elia
March 28th, 2014, 12:31 AM
Bs'd

Read here how the Christians rip Tanach texts which have no bearing on the messiah whatsoever out of context, and present them as "messianic prophecies": https://sites.google.com/site/777mountzion/324x0

Bs'd

See here how the NT does exactly the same: https://sites.google.com/site/777mountzion/nt-prophecies

Elia
March 28th, 2014, 12:32 AM
Bs'd

See here how the NT does exactly the same: https://sites.google.com/site/777mountzion/nt-prophecies

Bs'd

See here why that is total nonsense:

When you randomly take Tanach texts which have no bearing on the messiah, and rip them out of context, and then mistranslate them, and then say they are messianic prophecies, then you can make everybody you want the messiah, whether it is Napoleon Bonaparte, Barak Obama, David Koresh, or the rooster of Moshe:

A Chassidic Rabbi Makes a Startling Discovery


My name is Moshe and I am a Chassidic Jew who has, from my youth, learned the words of our Holy Prophets, and has been puzzled by their meaning.
Then, on the day before Yom Kippur, I contemplated the solemnity of the day and was made aware of the amazing meaning of G-d's words. I recognized the fulfillment of 42 Messianic prophecies of the Tenach, and they changed my life forever.


1. Early in the morning I went to get my rooster to fulfill the ancient custom. There in the light I looked into his eyes and saw fulfilled the words, 'I am the rooster* who has seen affliction.' (Lam. 3:1)

2. I took him and swung him around my head as the verse says, 'And he circled his head**.' (Lam 3:5)

3. I moved my hands as I swirled him, as it says, 'Only against me did he turn his hand.' (Lam 3:3)

4. With this he leaped from my hand and started to run. As it says, 'They have run away without seeing good.' (Job 9:25)

5. I cried a short pray to HaShem as it says, 'My words I say out of the bitterness of my soul.' (Job 10:1)

6. He ran from me, fulfilling the verse, 'To me they showed their back and not their face.' (Jer. 32:33)

7/8. I borrowed a cane from a man near me so as to catch him with the rounded edge, as the verse says, 'And Moshe took the stick.' (Ex. 4:20, Num 20:8)

9/10. I tried to catch him with the hook, but only the blows of the cane hit his back as it says, 'Afflicted by the rod of his anger.' (Lam. 3:1 and it also says, 'I struck you with the blows of an enemy.' (Jer. 30:12)

11. He turned to me and I got him right on the cheek fulfilling the verse, 'I have offered my cheek to the one who strikes me.' (Lam. 3:30)

12. He ran from me into a dark corner and I followed after him, as the verse says, 'He has led me and driven me into the darkness and not light.'
(Lam. 3:2)

13. I had him there in the corner as it says; 'All her pursuers overtook her in the small place.' (Lam. 1:3)

14. He stood there silent, as he had been to this time in fulfillment of the words of the prophet, 'He was persecuted and afflicted, be he did not open his mouth.' (Is. 53:7)

15. In that corner there was just nowhere for him to hide from me as the verse says, 'Can a person hide in a concealed place, and I should not see him?' (Jer. 23:25)

16. He was now trapped as the verse says, 'He has walled me in so I cannot escape.' (Lam. 3:7)

17. In his eyes I could see him praying silently to HaShem, 'My G-d my G-d why have you forsaken me?' (Psalm 22:1)

18. Clearly it was fulfilled for him, 'The mighty ones of Bashan encircle me.' (Psalm 22:13)

19. I grabbed him and he started to call out to HaShem.
As the verse says, 'My G-d, I call to you by day and you do not answer and by night and there is no respite.' (Psalm 22:3)

20. But there was no answer as it says, 'Though I would scream out and plead he shut out my prayer.' (Lam. 3:8)

21. It was clearly the end. I grabbed him and took my place in the line waiting to give my rooster to the shochet (ritual slaughterer.) He was silent, 'Like a sheep being led to the slaughter or a ewe to her sharers he did not open his mouth.' (Is. 53:7)

22. The shochet took him by the neck as it says; 'He grasped me by the neck.' (Job 16:12)

23. With that he screamed out, 'Be not far from me because distress is near and there is none to help me.' (Psalm 22:12)

24. He also said, 'Save my soul from the sword.' (Psalm 22:21)

25. He slaughtered him fulfilling 'He was removed from the living land.' (Is. 53:8)

26. He let the blood fall on the floor, as it says, 'I am poured out like water.' (Psalm 22:15)

27. I took the dead chicken and gazed at it as the prophet says, 'They have looked upon me whom they have pierced.' (Zech 12:10)

28/29. I took it to be made kosher. We separated it into pieces snapping it's bones as the verses say, 'All my bones became disjointed.' (Psalm 22:15) 'He has broken my bones.' (Lam 3:4)

30. Then I took him home to cook. My wife removed the skin as it says, 'He has worn away my flesh and skin.' (Lam. 3:4)

31. She placed him in a pot with water, as it says, 'For the waters have reached unto my soul.' (Psalm 69:2)

32. She added many spices as it says, 'And she gave ...many spices.' (1 Kings 10:10)

33. She covered up the pot so it could cook as it says; 'He has placed me in darkness.' (Lam 3:6)

34. The smell of it filled the room as it says, 'That the spices may flow out.' (Song 4:16)

35. After that it was served on the table and we gazed upon it as the verse says, 'I count my bones and they gaze and look upon me.' (Psalm 22:18)

36. He was divided among the members of my family, as it says, 'Therefore I will divide him among the many.' (Is. 53:12)

37/38. We rejoiced and sang as we ate him, as it says, 'I have become a thing of laughter for my people, they sing all day long.' (Lam. 3:14) 'In him our hearts were joyful.' (Psalm 33:21)

39/40/41. After which we were full and praised G-d as it says, 'You shall eat and be satisfied and praise HaShem your G-d.' (Deut. 6:11,8:10,11:15).

42. We truly saw the goodness of G-d as it say, 'You should taste and see that HaShem is good.' (Psalm 34:9)

There were many more messianic prophecies that I could have added that applied to my messianic rooster. Many more he will fulfill when he comes back.

In all seriousness the above example is no different then the lists claiming 200/300/400 prophecies fulfilled by Jesus. They claim the odds against a single person fulfilling them are astronomical. Or of their claims that passages like Psalms 22, or Isaiah 53 are about their messiah/god. Consider this well when you see or hear the claims made by missionaries or just simple Christians who you may meet. If not there may be a prophecy that does really apply: 'They are a people bereft of council and they don't have understanding.'

* In Hebrew the word 'gever' means both 'man' and 'rooster'berew
** In Hebrew the word is resh aleph shin, which can be read as 'rosh' head'


(c) Moshe Shulman, 2000

freelight
April 6th, 2014, 10:11 PM
~*~*~

'God' drops down into the collection of human tradition and creation a pure soul to reflect him, who is also part of a collective (individual community) and so that fit vessel is 'anointed' to serve within a certain context and cultural setting. How the 'Messiah' or 'Christ' serves the purpose of God is a matter of translation.




pj

Elia
April 14th, 2014, 02:01 AM
I'd like to begin listing all of the Old Testament prophecies of the first coming of the Messiah. Hopefully these passages will edify us.

Bs'd

I'd like to begin debunking all this Christian nonsense about Tanach texts which have no bearing on the messiah whatsoever, but which are used by Christians who rip them out of context, and then claim that they are "messianic prophecies", which supposedly are fulfilled by their messiah. Hopefully that will edify us.

Here is a good link to start with: https://sites.google.com/site/777mountzion/324x0

Elia
April 14th, 2014, 02:02 AM
and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Gen 3:15

This passage teaches that the Messiah will come thru humanity.

Bs'd

"Gen. 3:15.....He will bruise Satan's head.....Heb. 2:14, 1 Jn. 3:18"

The claim is that the following verses are a messianic prophecy: "The LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, cursed are you above all cattle, and above all wild animals; upon your belly you shall go, and dust you shall eat all the days of your life. I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel." The fact of the matter is that nowhere here is spoken about a messiah, nowhere does it speak about a king or a ruler like it does in the genuine messianic prophecies, here is not spoken about a descendent of David or his father Jesse, the word "messiah" is not used here, there is not spoken here about a redeemer who is going to save the whole world from its sins; those things only exist in the minds of brainwashed Christians when they read this text. The only thing this text says is that there will be enmity between the seed of the woman and the seed of the snake. What is the seed of the woman? All mankind. What is the seed of the snake? Many more snakes. “he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.” That means; men shall kill snakes, and snakes will bite men in the legs. That is all this text says. But even according the Christian understanding there is a big problem. Christianity claims that the snake is the devil, and the seed of the woman is supposed to be JC, who came to crush the head of the serpent. But we see that AFTER the death of JC, as it is written in I Peter 5:8, that the devil is going round like a roaring lion, looking for someone to devour. So unless somebody wants to say that the devil is going round with a crushed head, looking who he can devour, this prophecy is NOT fulfilled. So if you really want to see this as a messianic prophecy, then you can add another one to the unfulfilled messianic prophecies.

Elia
April 14th, 2014, 02:11 AM
18 and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice. Gen 22:18

This verse teaches that

the Seed of the Woman will be limited as a descendant of Abraham, Messiah will be a Jew.

Bs'd

And now with some context: " When they came to the place of which God had told him, Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar, upon the wood. 10 Then Abraham put forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son. 11 But the angel of the Lord called to him from heaven, and said, “Abraham, Abraham!” And he said, “Here am I.” 12 He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, seeing you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me.” 13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, behind him was a ram, caught in a thicket by his horns; and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered it up as a burnt offering instead of his son. 14 So Abraham called the name of that place The Lord will provide;[a] as it is said to this day, “On the mount of the Lord it shall be provided.”[b]

15 And the angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven, 16 and said, “By myself I have sworn, says the Lord, because you have done this, and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 I will indeed bless you, and I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore. And your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies, 18 and by your descendants shall all the nations of the earth bless themselves, because you have obeyed my voice.”

This is God speaking to Abraham, and telling him all the nations of the earth will bless themselves by his descendants.

So this does not speak about the messiah, but about the Jews in general.

So this has no bearing on the messiah

Elia
April 14th, 2014, 02:14 AM
10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah,
Nor the ruler’s staff from between his feet,
Until Shiloh come;
And unto him shall the obedience of the peoples be.
Gen 49:10

This passage teaches

the Seed of the Woman and the Seed of Abraham is now limited to being of the specific tribe of Judah.

Bs'd

Your messiah was not from the tribe of Judah. From what tribe you are goes through the male line, through the father.

Your messiah had no Jewish father from the tribe of Judah, so he was not from Judah.


Messiah will be a king.

Your messiah was not a king, therefore he was not the messiah.


Messiah had to come before AD 70.

With your logic, messiah had to come before the destruction of the first Temple, about 2500 years ago, because then already the Jews lost the sceptre.

Elia
April 14th, 2014, 02:17 AM
17 I see him, but not now;
I behold him, but not nigh:
There shall come forth a star out of Jacob,
And a sceptre shall rise out of Israel,
And shall smite through the corners of Moab,
And break down all the sons of tumult.
Numbers 24:17

This passage teaches

that the Messiah is to be a king.

Bs'd

Your messiah never was a king.

Your messiah never smote the corners of Moab, and never broke down the sons of tumult.

So your messiah did not fulfill this messianic prophecy, and therefore he was not the messiah.

Elia
April 14th, 2014, 02:20 AM
15 Jehovah thy God will raise up unto thee a prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; 16 according to all that thou desiredst of Jehovah thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of Jehovah my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not. 17 And Jehovah said unto me, They have well said that which they have spoken. 18 I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee; and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
Deut 18:15-19

This passages teaches

that the Messiah will be a prophet.

Bs'd

It surely does not.

What this passage teaches us, is that God would raise up more prophets after Moses.

And so He did. Here are a few:

Isaiah
Jeremiah
Ezekiel
Daniel
Hosea
Joel
Amos
Obadiah
Jonah
Micah
Nahum
Habakkuk
Zephaniah
Haggai
Zechariah
Malachi

These were all kosher prophets, they all fit the bill.

No need to try to squeeze the messiah into this verse.

Elia
April 14th, 2014, 02:25 AM
14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Isaiah 7:14

This verse teaches that

Messiah would be born of a girl who is still a virgin the explanation of Gen 3:15


Bs'd

The prophecy of Isaiah 7:

1: In the days of Ahaz the son of Jotham, son of Uzzi'ah, king of Judah, Rezin the king of Syria and Pekah the son of Remali'ah the king of Israel came up to Jerusalem to wage war against it, but they could not conquer it. 2: When the house of David was told, "Syria is in league with E'phraim," his heart and the heart of his people shook as the trees of the forest shake before the wind. 3: And the LORD said to Isaiah, "Go forth to meet Ahaz, you and She'ar-jash'ub your son, at the end of the conduit of the upper pool on the highway to the Fuller's Field, 4: and say to him, `Take heed, be quiet, do not fear, and do not let your heart be faint because of these two smoldering stumps of firebrands, at the fierce anger of Rezin and Syria and the son of Remali'ah. 5: Because Syria, with E'phraim and the son of Remali'ah, has devised evil against you, saying, 6: "Let us go up against Judah and terrify it, and let us conquer it for ourselves, and set up the son of Ta'be-el as king in the midst of it," 7: thus says the Lord GOD: It shall not stand, and it shall not come to pass.
8: For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin. (Within sixty-five years E'phraim will be broken to pieces so that it will no longer be a people.) 9: And the head of E'phraim is Sama'ria, and the head of Sama'ria is the son of Remali'ah. If you will not believe, surely you shall not be established.'" 10: Again the LORD spoke to Ahaz,
11: "Ask a sign of the LORD your God; let it be deep as Sheol or high as heaven." 12: But Ahaz said, "I will not ask, and I will not put the LORD to the test." 13: And he said, "Hear then, O house of David! Is it too little for you to weary men, that you weary my God also? 14: Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, a young woman shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Imman'u-el. 15: He shall eat curds and honey when he knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good. 16: For before the child knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land before whose two kings you are in dread will be deserted."

We see here in Isaiah 7, that king Achaz, the king of Judah, is afraid of two neighboring kings.
It is important to know that after the death of king Solomo the kingdom of Israel split up into two parts; into the kingdom of Judah, and the kingdom of Israel.
The kingdom om Judah was made up of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and a part of the Levites. The kingdom of Israel was made up of the other ten tribes.
Achaz was king over Judah, and in this prophecy the king of Israel is Pekah, the son of Remaliah.
And Pekah had made a covenant with the king of Syria, called Resin, to attack together the kingdom of Judah.
This news caused king Achaz considerable stress, because he had a dark suspicion that things could very well turn out not so very rosy for him.
Therefore God sent Isaiah to Achaz, in order to tell him that things would work out just fine for him. God tells Achaz that he will give him a sign. Here is the sign: "14: Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, a young woman is pregnant and is giving birth to a son, and she called his name Imman'u-el. 15: He shall eat curds and honey when he knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good. 16: For before the child knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land before whose two kings you are in dread will be deserted."

God says that before the child of the young woman who is pregnant will grow up, the land of the two kings, Resin of Syria, and Pekah of Israel, will be deserted, that is devoid of people. Those two nations will be led into exile.
So this is a sign for king Achaz, who lived about 700 years before JC.

And the Bible tells us that this prophecy came true: "27: In the fifty-second year of Azari'ah king of Judah Pekah the son of Remali'ah began to reign over Israel in Sama'ria, and reigned twenty years. 28: And he did what was evil in the sight of the LORD; he did not depart from the sins of Jerobo'am the son of Nebat, which he made Israel to sin. 29: In the days of Pekah king of Israel Tig'lath-pile'ser king of Assyria came and captured I'jon, A'bel-beth-ma'acah, Jan-o'ah, Kedesh, Hazor, Gilead, and Galilee, all the land of Naph'tali; and he carried the people captive to Assyria. 30: Then Hoshe'a the son of Elah made a conspiracy against Pekah the son of Remali'ah, and struck him down, and slew him, and reigned in his stead, in the twentieth year of Jotham the son of Uzzi'ah."
II Kings 15.

We see here that the population of Israel indeed went into exile, and that the land of king Pekah was deserted.

And here is what happened to Resin, the king of Syria:
"6: At that time the king of Edom recovered Elath for Edom, and drove the men of Judah from Elath; and the E'domites came to Elath, where they dwell to this day. 7: So Ahaz sent messengers to Tig'lath-pile'ser king of Assyria, saying, "I am your servant and your son. Come up, and rescue me from the hand of the king of Syria and from the hand of the king of Israel, who are attacking me." 8: Ahaz also took the silver and gold that was found in the house of the LORD and in the treasures of the king's house, and sent a present to the king of Assyria. 9: And the king of Assyria hearkened to him; the king of Assyria marched up against Damascus, and took it, carrying its people captive to Kir, and he killed Rezin."
II Kings 16.

So here we see that also the inhabitants of the land of King Resin went into exile, and also his land was deserted, in the days of Achaz.

So God gave a sign to Achaz.

In the days of Achaz.

About 700 years before JC.

So this prophecy has no bearing what so ever on the messiah, and NOWHERE in this prophecy is spoken about a virgin.

These are only misconceptions of the NT.

However, the NT brings this prophecy to Achaz as a messianic prophecy, see Matthew 1 "21: she will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins." 22: All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet: 23: "Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel".

So what the NT does here, is taking a text which does not speak about the messiah, ripping it out of context, mistranslating it, (is says "young woman", and not "virgin") and then presenting it to us as a messianic prophecy.

So one of the foundations of the Christian religion, the virgin birth, is based upon a mistranslated text which is ripped out of context and does NOT speak about the messiah.

Look here for more reasons why nobody should believe in the New Testament: http://mountzion.notlong.com

Elia
April 14th, 2014, 02:29 AM
14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Isaiah 7:14

This verse teaches that

Messiah will be the God Man

Bs'd

No such thing is to be found in the verse.

Something about names in the Bible from Isaiah 9:

Because of the fact that the name of the son is "Mighty God", (or "God is Mighty", both are possible translations) and "Eternals Father", the Christians deduce that the boy spoken about must have been God.
HOWEVER, a name is only that; a name. A name is not a description of the bearer of that name. An example: Buffalo Bill was not a buffalo. The indian chief Sitting Bull was not a bull.
Many times people in the Bible have in their name the word "God", or the name of God, but that doesn't mean that those people are God. For instance; in Exodus 6:23 is spoken about a man called "Elazar". That means "God is helper", or "Helping God". But that doesn't mean that that man was God.
Exodus 6:24; "Elkanah", that means "God acquired", or "acquiring God". II Samuel 22:19; "Elchanan"; "God is merciful", or "Merciful God". But these men were not God, just like the the child in Isaiah 9 wasn't God.


Messiah will be a king

The christian messiah never was a king, so he is out.


Messiah will have to come before AD 70

Also that is nowhere to be found in the above verse.

Elia
April 14th, 2014, 02:36 AM
Make an uproar, O ye peoples, and be broken in pieces; and give ear, all ye of far countries: gird yourselves, and be broken in pieces; gird yourselves, and be broken in pieces. 10 Take counsel together, and it shall be brought to nought; speak the word, and it shall not stand: for God is with us.
Isaiah 8:9-10

Verse 10 literally reads: and it shall not stand because of Immanuel. The real impact of what's being said here gets lost because of the translation of the meaning of the name God with us rather than Immanuel. What this is saying is that God will preserve the house of David because of the Covenant God made with David of an eternal dynasty. Because of the AD 70 destruction of the Jewish temple all of the genealogical records have been lost so it would be impossible to trace the Davidic line after AD 70.

This passage teaches that Messiah must come before the 70 AD destruction of the temple.

Bs'd

The Temple was destroyed 500 years before your messiah was around.

And genealogical records are made by humans, and are subject to error.

God can send a prophet, to point out who is from the Davidic dynasty, and who is not.

No records needed.


6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of Jehovah of hosts will perform this.
Isaiah 9:6-7

This passage teaches that

Messiah will be king

Your messiah never was a king, so he doesn't fit the bill.


Messiah will be God and Man

Nope, it doesn't say so.

Isaiah 9:2-7 "2 The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light; those who dwelt in a land of deep darkness, on them has light shined. 3 Thou hast multiplied the nation, thou hast increased its joy; they rejoice before thee as with joy at the harvest, as men rejoice when they divide the spoil. 4 For the yoke of his burden, and the staff for his shoulder, the rod of his oppressor, thou hast broken as on the day of Mid'ian. 5 For every boot of the tramping warrior in battle tumult and every garment rolled in blood will be burned as fuel for the fire. 6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace". 7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David, and over his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and for evermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this."
Please take notice of the fact that Isaiah is talking in the past tense: "The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light; those who dwelt in a land of deep darkness, on them has light shined.|

"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government is upon his shoulder, and his name was called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."

These are things which had happened already in the days of Isaiah.

If, despite these facts, you still want to apply these verses to JC, than read verse 5, 6, and 7, and see that JC didn't do any of those things. He never ruled on the throne of David, he never had any government on his shoulders, and there never was endless peace over his kingdom.

The same holds true for the verses 6 and 7: "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace". 7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David, and over his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and for evermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this."

All of this doesn't hold true for JC; he never had any government on his shoulder. And also here is spoken in the past tense: "A child is born, a son is given. But most translations give it in the future tense. For instance the RSV, NIV, NAS, ESV, KJV, NIRV, the all say; "His name will be called ....", future tense. However, in the Hebrew text this too is past tense: "His name was called ...." The Hebrew expression here is "wayikra". That is the first word in the book of Leviticus. And all the previously mentioned translations there say: "And the Lord called Mozes ..." Past tense. Exactly the same the word. Isn't that weird? Exactly the same word is used in Genesis 5:1; "And God called the light 'day'" Called. Past tense. Nobody argues with that one. But why then, in Isaiah 9, is it suddenly changed to future tense? The answer is simple: The past tense doesn't fit with the Christian theology, and therefore the Bible translations are corrupted and twisted to fit the Christian religion. Just like that. There is only one solution for this problem: Take a course in Biblical Hebrew. It is more easy then it looks. Then your eyes will be opened and the Christian deception will stare you in the face. And yes, I do sympathize with the poor misguided Christians whom are being led astray by their clergy by means of twisted and corrupted Bible translations. That's the reason why I fulfill my duty of being a light unto the nations and uncovering the Christian deception.
"Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end" "There will be no end", future tense. And this too is WRONG. It is in the Hebrew present tense. I found only one translation which is correct here, and that is Young's Literal Translation.

Why all this stress on the tenses? Isaiah spoke about a king who was living in his days, and therefore JC is out. The king that Isaiah speaks about is Hezekiah, the son of Achaz who got from Isaiah the sign about the young woman (no, not the virgin) who was pregnant and gave birth to the son Immanuel.
The Talmud explains that under the rule of the God fearing Hezekiah the Jewish kingdom rose to great heights, and that's why he was entitled to those impressive titles.


Because of the fact that the name of the son is "Mighty God", (or "God is Mighty", both are possible translations) and "Eternals Father", the Christians deduce that the boy spoken about must have been God.
HOWEVER, a name is only that; a name. A name is not a description of the bearer of that name. An example: Buffalo Bill was not a buffalo. The indian chief Sitting Bull was not a bull.
Many times people in the Bible have in their name the word "God", or the name of God, but that doesn't mean that those people are God. For instance; in Exodus 6:23 is spoken about a man called "Elazar". That means "God is helper", or "Helping God". But that doesn't mean that that man was God.
Exodus 6:24; "Elkanah", that means "God acquired", or "acquiring God". II Samuel 22:19; "Elchanan"; "God is merciful", or "Merciful God". But these men were not God, just like the the child in Isaiah 9 wasn't God.


Apart from that, the Hebrew words "El gibor", in Christian Bibles translated with "Mighty God", can have a different meaning. "El" can mean "God", but it can also mean "judge", "leader", or "mighty man". In Exodus 4:16 God says to Moses that he will be of an elohiem for his brother Aharon. ("elohim" is the longer form of the word "el") This doesn't mean that Moses was a God for Aharon and Aharon started to worship his brother, it meant that Moses would be the leader of Aharon.
In Exodus 21:1-6 is spoken about a slave who after the normal period of servitude ended, doesn't want to leave his master. In that case the owner has to take him to court, where the slave will make a statement that he doesn't want to leave his master, and that he will serve his master until his death. The Hebrew text there says that his master must take him to the "elohim". There the NAS, ASV, ESV, NRSV, RSV, YLT, they all say that his master must take him "to God". However, his master doesn't take him for a ride to heaven, but takes him to the courthouse. Therefore the NIV, KJV, TNIV, and the NIRV, they all say that the master must take him to "the judges".

Even so in Isaiah 9 the word "El" does not necessarily mean "God". Therefore the text in Isaiah 9 is in no way a proof that the child spoken about was God.

Elia
April 14th, 2014, 02:38 AM
The voice of one that crieth, Prepare ye in the wilderness the way of Jehovah; make level in the desert a highway for our God. 4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low; and the uneven shall be made level, and the rough places a plain: 5 and the glory of Jehovah shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together; for the mouth of Jehovah hath spoken it.
Isaiah 40:3-5

This passage teaches that Messiah

Will have a forerunner.

Bs'd

This passage has no bearing on the messiah whatsoever:

Matt 2:16-18 “Then Herod, when he saw that he had been tricked by the wise men, was in a furious rage, and he sent and killed all the male children in Bethlehem and in all that region who were two years old or under, according to the time which he had ascertained from the wise men. Then was fulfilled what was spoken by the prophet Jeremiah: “A voice was heard in Ramah, wailing and loud lamentation, Rachel weeping for her children; she refused to be consoled, because they were no more."”
Here the NT claims that Jeremiah 31:15 speaks about a slaughter of children, taking place in the days of the messiah.

And now read what is really happening there: Jeremiah 31: “10 "Hear the word of the LORD, O nations, and declare it in the coastlands afar off; say, 'He who scattered Israel will gather him, and will keep him as a shepherd keeps his flock.' 11 For the LORD has ransomed Jacob, and has redeemed him from hands too strong for him. 12 They shall come and sing aloud on the height of Zion, and they shall be radiant over the goodness of the LORD, over the grain, the wine, and the oil, and over the young of the flock and the herd; their life shall be like a watered garden, and they shall languish no more. 13 Then shall the maidens rejoice in the dance, and the young men and the old shall be merry. I will turn their mourning into joy, I will comfort them, and give them gladness for sorrow. 14 I will feast the soul of the priests with abundance, and my people shall be satisfied with my goodness, says the LORD." 15 Thus says the LORD: "A voice is heard in Ramah, lamentation and bitter weeping. Rachel is weeping for her children; she refuses to be comforted for her children, because they are not." 16 Thus says the LORD: "Keep your voice from weeping, and your eyes from tears; for your work shall be rewarded, says the LORD, and they shall come back from the land of the enemy. 17 There is hope for your future, says the LORD, and your children shall come back to their own country.”

As everyone can see, this speaks about Israel which went into exile, and of whom God says that they will return from the exile back to the land of Israel.

Another text which has no bearing on the slaughter of children in the days of messiah which is ripped out of context by the NT and is presented to us as a “messianic prophecy”.

Elia
April 14th, 2014, 02:39 AM
1 Behold, my servant, whom I uphold; my chosen, in whom my soul delighteth: I have put my Spirit upon him; he will bring forth justice to the Gentiles. 2 He will not cry, nor lift up his voice, nor cause it to be heard in the street. 3 A bruised reed will he not break, and a dimly burning wick will he not quench: he will bring forth justice in truth. 4 He will not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set justice in the earth; and the isles shall wait for his law. 5 Thus saith God Jehovah, he that created the heavens, and stretched them forth; he that spread abroad the earth and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I, Jehovah, have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thy hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
Isaiah 42:1-6

This passage teaches

Messiah would be anointed by the Holy Spirit

Bs'd

Also this text has no bearing on the messiah whatsoever.

For the finer details look here: http://Isaiah53.notlong.com

Elia
April 14th, 2014, 02:42 AM
1 Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye peoples, from far: Jehovah hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name: 2 and he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me: and he hath made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he kept me close: 3 and he said unto me, Thou art my servant; Israel, in whom I will be glorified.
Isaiah 49:1-3

This passage teaches that

Messiah's first coming would be rejected by Israel .

For a time the message of salvation thru Messiah will go out to the Gentiles.

Eventually Israel will receive Messiah; He will be their new covenant.

Israel's acceptance of Messiah will herald the re-gathering of all Jews to the land of Israel.

Bs'd

The above text speaks about God speaking to His servant.

The servant of God is ISRAEL.

No messiah to be found in this text.

Elia
April 14th, 2014, 02:45 AM
7 For the Lord Jehovah will help me; therefore have I not been confounded: therefore have I set my face like a flint, and I know that I shall not be put to shame. 8 He is near that justifieth me; who will contend with me? let us stand up together: who is mine adversary? let him come near to me. 9 Behold, the Lord Jehovah will help me; who is he that shall condemn me? behold, all they shall wax old as a garment, the moth shall eat them up.

Isaiah 50:7-9

This passage teaches

Messiah would receive special training from the God the Father.

Messiah's first coming would be marked by suffering.

Messiah would be obedient to submitting Himself to physical abuse.

Bs'd

This passage teaches that ISRAEL will be obedient to submitting itself to physical abuse.

No messiah to be found in this text.

Elia
April 14th, 2014, 02:46 AM
13 Behold, my servant shall deal wisely, he shall be exalted and lifted up, and shall be very high. 14 Like as many were astonished at thee (his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men), 15 so shall he sprinkle many nations; kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they understand.
1 Who hath believed our message? and to whom hath the arm of Jehovah been revealed? 2 For he grew up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3 He was despised, and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and as one from whom men hide their face he was despised; and we esteemed him not. 4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows; yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and Jehovah hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed, yet when he was afflicted he opened not his mouth; as a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and as a sheep that before its shearers is dumb, so he opened not his mouth. 8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who among them considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living for the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due? 9 And they made his grave with the wicked, and with a rich man in his death; although he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. 10 Yet it pleased Jehovah to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of Jehovah shall prosper in his hand. 11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by the knowledge of himself shall my righteous servant justify many; and he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he poured out his soul unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors: yet he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Isaiah 52:13 - 53:13

This passage teaches

Messiah would be born of natural circumstances with no unusual characteristics.

Messiah's first coming would be marked with suffering.

Messiah's first coming would be rejected.

Messiah would undergo a legal trial and be condemned to death.

Messiah would be executed.

Messiah would be buried in a rich man's tomb.

Messiah would be resurrected.

All of the Messiahs suffering and death were to be substitutionary. He died so that we may have life. He died so that our sins could be removed from us. He died so that we may enter into a new relationship with God.

Messiah would bring justification to all who believe in Him.

Bs'd

As usual, Isaiah 53 has no bearing on the messiah whatsoever.

For the finer details look here: http://Isaiah53.notlong.com

Elia
April 14th, 2014, 02:48 AM
1 The Spirit of the Lord Jehovah is upon me; because Jehovah hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; 2 to proclaim the year of Jehovah’s favor, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; 3 to appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them a garland for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they may be called trees of righteousness, the planting of Jehovah, that he may be glorified.
Isaiah 61:1-3

This passage teaches

Messiah would be anointed by the Spirit for His mission.

Messiah would have a prophetic preaching
ministry.

Bs'd

This passage of course speaks about the prophet Isaiah.

There is not the slightest indication it speaks about the messiah.

Elia
April 14th, 2014, 02:53 AM
. 5 Behold, the days come, saith Jehovah, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and he shall reign as king and deal wisely, and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land. 6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely; and this is his name whereby he shall be called: Jehovah our righteousness.
Jeremiah 23:5-6

This passage teaches

Messiah would be a God Man.

The Messiah would be Jehovah Himself; Jehovah would become a man.

Messiah would be a descendant of David and therefore king. Jeremiah here reaffirms the Davidic Covenant (discussed under I Chronicles 17:10b - 14).

Jeremiah 23:5-6; "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS."

Jeremiah 33:14-16: "IN THOSE DAYS AND AT THAT TIME, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land. IN THOSE DAYS shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness."

When the branch of righteousness springs forth to David, when the messiah comes, THEN, IN THOSE DAYS, Judah will be saved and Jerusalem shall dwell safely. That means that it is impossible to squeeze in two thousand or more years between the coming of the messiah and the redemption of Judah and Jerusalem. Out goes the 'second coming'. However, there wasn't any redemption in the days of Jesus. Forty years after his death, in 70 CE, Jerusalem was totally destroyed by the Romans, the second Temple was burned down, and the Jews exiled. No way that the above prophecy was fulfilled.

Why is it that Christians try to proof that Christ was the messiah by bringing messianic prophecies that he did NOT fulfill???

And because of the fact that the name of the messias will be "Y-H-V-H is our righteousness", that does not mean that the messiah will be God Himself:

Because of the fact that the name of the son is "Mighty God", (or "God is Mighty", both are possible translations) and "Eternals Father", the Christians deduce that the boy spoken about must have been God.
HOWEVER, a name is only that; a name. A name is not a description of the bearer of that name. An example: Buffalo Bill was not a buffalo. The indian chief Sitting Bull was not a bull.
Many times people in the Bible have in their name the word "God", or the name of God, but that doesn't mean that those people are God. For instance; in Exodus 6:23 is spoken about a man called "Elazar". That means "God is helper", or "Helping God". But that doesn't mean that that man was God.
Exodus 6:24; "Elkanah", that means "God acquired", or "acquiring God". II Samuel 22:19; "Elchanan"; "God is merciful", or "Merciful God". But these men were not God, just like the the child in Isaiah 9 wasn't God.

Elia
April 14th, 2014, 02:57 AM
. 2 But thou, Beth-lehem Ephrathah, which art little to be among the thousands of Judah, out of thee shall one come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel;

Bs'd

Was JC ever a ruler in Israel?

Why is it that Christians bring messianic prophecies NOT fulfilled by their messiah, in order to prove that he was the messiah???


whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting.
Micah 5:2

This verse teaches that

Messiah would be born in Bethlehem the city of David.

Messiah would be divine as well as human, having existing from eternity past.


Micah 5:2
New American Standard Bible "But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity."

Holman Christian Standard Bible " Bethlehem Ephrathah, you are small among the clans of Judah; One will come from you to be ruler over Israel for Me. His origin is from antiquity, from eternity.

New Life Version "His coming was planned long ago, from the beginning."

Darby Translation "whose goings forth are from of old, from the days of eternity."

American Standard Version "whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting."

All versions of the King James: "whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting."

Amplified Bible "Whose goings forth have been from of old, from ancient days (eternity).


All the above translation say the origins of the messiah are from "everlasting" or from "eternity", hereby implying that the messiah is God.
The Hebrew words here translated with "from everlasting" or "days of eternity" are "jamei olaam", which means literally "ancient days".
Many Bible translations translate it like that, only the above hold on to "days of eternity", or something with the same implications, because they want to push the wrong Christian idea that the messiah is God himself.

However, also the above translations know how to correctly translate the words "jamei olaam". We see that for instance in Micah 7:14, were the same expression "jamei olaam" is used. See here how the above translate it there:

Holman Christian Standard Bible " Let them graze in Bashan and Gilead as in ancient times."

New Life Version "Let them eat in Bashan and Gilead as in days long ago."

Darby Translation "let them feed in Bashan and Gilead, as in the days of old. "

American Standard Version "let them feed in Bashan and Gilead, as in the days of old."

King James: "let them feed in Bashan and Gilead, as in the days of old."

New American Standard Bible "Let them feed in Bashan and Gilead As in the days of old."

Amplified Bible "they shall feed in Bashan and Gilead, as in the days of old."




Another place where the expression "jamei olaam" is used, is in Isaiah 63:11

Holman Christian Standard Bible " Then He remembered the days of the past, [the days] of Moses [and] his people."

New Life Version "Then His people remembered the days long ago, the days of Moses."

Darby Translation "But he remembered the days of old, Moses [and] his people:"

American Standard Version "Then he remembered the days of old, Moses and his people,"

King James: "Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people,"

New American Standard Bible "Then His people remembered the days of old, of Moses"

Amplified Bible "Then His people [seriously] remembered the days of old, of Moses and his people"




Another place where the expression "jamei olaam" is used is Amos 9:11

Holman Christian Standard Bible "In that day I will restore the fallen booth of David: I will repair its gaps,
restore its ruins, and rebuild it as in the days of old,"

New Life Version "In that day I will build again the tent of David that fell down. Yes, I will build it again from the stones that fell down. I will set it up again as it used to be."

Darby Translation "and I will raise up its ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:"

American Standard Version "and I will raise up its ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old;"

King James: "and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:"

Amplified Bible "and I will raise up its ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old,"

New American Standard Bible "I will also raise up its ruins And rebuild it as in the days of old;"



Another place where the expression "jamei olaam" is used is in Malachi 3:4

Holman Christian Standard Bible "And the offerings of Judah and Jerusalem will please the LORD as in days of old and years gone by"

New Life Version "Then the gifts of Judah and Jerusalem will be pleasing to the Lord, as they were in the past."

Darby Translation "Then shall the oblation of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto J-e-h-o-v-a-h, as in the days of old, and as in former years."

American Standard Version "Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto J-e-h-o-v-a-h, as in the days of old, and as in ancient years. "

King James: "Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years."

Amplified Bible "hen will the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasing to the Lord as in the days of old and as in ancient years."

New American Standard Bible ""Then the offering of Judah and Jerusalem will be pleasing to the LORD as in the days of old and as in former years."

It should be clear by now for everybody that the expression "jamei olaam" has no bearing on "days of eternity" whatsoever.
It is always translated correct, except there where Christianity wants to push it's dogma of a divine messiah. There the translations are corrupted in order to squeeze in the Christian messiah.



Beware of the Christian Bible translations!!!

Elia
April 14th, 2014, 03:01 AM
9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy king cometh unto thee; he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ***, even upon a colt the foal of an ***. 10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem; and the battle bow shall be cut off; and he shall speak peace unto the nations: and his dominion shall be from sea to sea, and from the River to the ends of the earth.
Zachariah 9:9-10

This passage teaches that

Messiah's first coming would be in humility.

Messiah's official presentation as the Messianic King would come when He rides into Jerusalem, riding on the foal of a donkey.

Bs'd

Why is that Christians bring messianic prophecies, NOT fulfilled by their messiah, in order to proof that he was the messiah???

Zacheriah 9:9-10; "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ***, and upon a colt the foal of an ***. And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth."

They say that he did ride on a donkey, like the whole Middle East in those days, but that is where it stops. He did not bring any peace, the battle bow, the horses and the chariots, symbols of war, were not cut off from Jerusalem, and his dominion was not from sea to sea and to the ends of the earth; as a matter of fact, he did not have any dominion at all.

In order to get around this problem, the Christian church invented the "second coming". However, nowhere in the Hebrew scriptures is it written that the messiah would come once, get himself killed, and come again in a second coming. This is a pure rationalization of Jesus' failure to function in any way as a messiah. Nowhere in any of the above prophecies does it indicate that there will be a gap of at least 2000 years between the birth of the messiah and the redemption. Nowhere does it speak about a messiah being tortured to death and coming back thousands of years later.

Elia
April 14th, 2014, 03:05 AM
1 Open thy doors, O Lebanon, that the fire may devour thy cedars. 2 Wail, O fir-tree, for the cedar is fallen, because the goodly ones are destroyed: wail, O ye oaks of Bashan, for the strong forest is come down. 3 A voice of the wailing of the shepherds! for their glory is destroyed: a voice of the roaring of young lions! for the pride of the Jordan is laid waste. 4 Thus said Jehovah my God: Feed the flock of slaughter; 5 whose possessors slay them, and hold themselves not guilty; and they that sell them say, Blessed be Jehovah, for I am rich; and their own shepherds pity them not. 6 For I will no more pity the inhabitants of the land, saith Jehovah; but, lo, I will deliver the men every one into his neighbor’s hand, and into the hand of his king; and they shall smite the land, and out of their hand I will not deliver them. 7 So I fed the flock of slaughter, verily the poor of the flock. And I took unto me two staves; the one I called Beauty, and the other I called Bands; and I fed the flock.
Zachariah 11:1-7

This passage teaches that

Messiah's first coming would be rejected, especially by the Jewish leaders.

While the nation as a whole would reject Messiah there would be a small Remnant of believing people who would accept Him.

The leadership of Israel would sell Him out for thirty pieces of silver.

The results of the rejection would be twofold, first, the protection would be taken away leaving Israel vulnerable to Gentile attack - in AD 70. Second, unity would be removed and Israel would be scattered.

Because they turned away from the true Messiah they would foolishly accept a false messiah. This led to the second devastation of the land in AD 135.

If the destruction described in verses 1-3 were the destruction in AD 70 then the Messiah would have to come before 70 AD.

Messiah is the Good Shepherd Jn 10:11-18

Bs'd

This is a bad joke.

There is no messiah to be seen in the above text, all the more so not a rejected messiah.

It speaks about the destruction of Lebanon, not of Israel.

The writer has no idea what he is talking about.

Elia
April 14th, 2014, 03:07 AM
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they shall look unto me whom they have pierced; and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his first-born.

Zachariah 12:10

This verse teaches

Messiah's first coming would be rejected by Israel.

Messiah would die a violent death by means of piercing.

Messiah would be both God and man.

Bs'd

As usual, there is no messiah to be seen in the above text, and no, God is not pierced.

If you want to know what is going on in Zach 12:10, look HERE. (https://sites.google.com/site/777mountzion/et-asher-1)

Elia
April 14th, 2014, 03:19 AM
10 and as from the day that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel; and I will subdue all thine enemies. Moreover I tell thee that Jehovah will build thee a house. 11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days are fulfilled that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will set up thy seed after thee, who shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom. 12 He shall build me a house, and I will establish his throne for ever. 13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my lovingkindness away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee; 14 but I will settle him in my house and in my kingdom for ever; and his throne shall be established for ever.

II Chronicles 17:10b - 14

This passage teaches that

Messiah will be a son of David descended from a different line than Jechoniah.

Bs'd

Your messiah had no human father, therefore he was not a son of David, and therefore he is disqualified from being the messiah.


Since all tribal and genealogical records were destroyed with temple in 70 AD, Messiah had to come before that time.

God does not depend on tribal or genealogical records.


Messiah would live eternally.

It speaks about king Solomon, and he wouldn't live eternally, but his kingdom would be established for ever.


Messiah would be a king.

Your messiah never was a king. So he was not the messiah.

Elia
April 14th, 2014, 03:20 AM
7 I will tell of the decree:
Jehovah said unto me, Thou art my son;
This day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of me, and I will give thee the nations for thine inheritance,
And the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron;
Thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.
10 Now therefore be wise, O ye kings:
Be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11 Serve Jehovah with fear,
And rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the son, lest he be angry, and ye perish in the way,
For his wrath will soon be kindled.
Blessed are all they that take refuge in him.

Psalm 2:7-12

This passage teaches that

Messiah would be the Son of God.

Messiah will be a king in Jerusalem.

Messiah will also rule over the Gentiles.

Bs'd

Psalm 2 is speaking about king David. King David is the anointed one ( (messiah means 'anointed one'), see I Samuel 16:12-13. Here the prophet Samuel anointed him, something that never happened to Jesus, he was never anointed by a prophet, but only by a sinful woman, something that means nothing of course.

"I have set my king upon Zion, my holy hill." King David reigned from Zion, he lived there and is buried there, but to Jesus nothing of this applies, he was never a king, and he never ruled from mount Zion.

"He said to me; You are My son, today have I begotten you." This does not mean that king David was a physical son of God. The term son of God is used for people or angels who are especially beloved or favored by God, as we can see in Genesis 6:4, Job 1:6, 2:1, 38:7, and Psalm 82:6, 89:6, and many other verses. Verse 8: "Ask of me and I will make the nations your heritage, and the ends of the earth your possession. You shall break them with a rod of iron, and dash them in pieces like a potters vessel." All this applies to King David, God gave him victory over all his adversaries, but nothing of this applies to Jesus. The claim that Jesus is going to do this after his second coming is a worthless claim because everybody can make a claim like that. Therefore it is absurd to say that this applies to Jesus in stead of King David.
setstats
Another Christian claim is that the Psalm says: "Kiss the son, or he will be angry", but this is a mistranslation. The word translated with "son" is "bar". And that means in Hebrew "pure", and not "son". Only in Aramaic does it mean son, but not in Hebrew. And the Psalms are written in Hebrew, therefore it doesn't make sense to translate this word as if it is Aramaic.
Therefore it says: "Worship in purity".

Nowhere in the Psalms is the word "bar" used for "son" or "heir".It is used for "pure", see Psalm 24:4; "The one who has clean hands and a PURE heart".

And Psalm 19:8; "the commandment of Y-H-W-H is PURE, enlightening the eyes."

And Psalm 73:1 "Surely God is good to Israel, to those who are PURE in heart."
There is not a single example in the Psalms where the word "bar" is used as "son".

Elia
April 14th, 2014, 03:21 AM
For the Chief Musician; set to Aijaleth hash-Shahar. A Psalm of David.

1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my groaning?
2 O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou answerest not;
And in the night season, and am not silent.
3 But thou art holy,
O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
4 Our fathers trusted in thee:
They trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered:
They trusted in thee, and were not put to shame.
6 But I am a worm, and no man;
A reproach of men, and despised of the people.
7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn:
They shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
8 Commit thyself unto Jehovah;
Let him deliver him:
Let him rescue him, seeing he delighteth in him.
9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb;
Thou didst make me trust when I was upon my mother’s breasts.
10 I was cast upon thee from the womb;
Thou art my God since my mother bare me.
11 Be not far from me; for trouble is near;
For there is none to help.
12 Many bulls have compassed me;
Strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
13 They gape upon me with their mouth,
As a ravening and a roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water,
And all my bones are out of joint:
My heart is like wax;
It is melted within me.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd;
And my tongue cleaveth to my jaws;
And thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
16 For dogs have compassed me:
A company of evil-doers have inclosed me;
They pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I may count all my bones.
They look and stare upon me;
18 They part my garments among them,
And upon my vesture do they cast lots.
19 But be not thou far off, O Jehovah:
O thou my succor, haste thee to help me.
20 Deliver my soul from the sword,
My darling from the power of the dog.
21 Save me from the lion’s mouth;
Yea, from the horns of the wild-oxen thou hast answered me.
22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren:
In the midst of the assembly will I praise thee.
23 Ye that fear Jehovah, praise him;
All ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him;
And stand in awe of him, all ye the seed of Israel.
24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted;
Neither hath he hid his face from him;
But when he cried unto him, he heard.
25 Of thee cometh my praise in the great assembly:
I will pay my vows before them that fear him.
26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied;
They shall praise Jehovah that seek after him:
Let your heart live for ever.
27 All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn unto Jehovah;
And all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
28 For the kingdom is Jehovah’s;
And he is the ruler over the nations.
29 All the fat ones of the earth shall eat and worship:
All they that go down to the dust shall bow before him,
Even he that cannot keep his soul alive.
30 A seed shall serve him;
It shall be told of the Lord unto the next generation.
31 They shall come and shall declare his righteousness
Unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done it.

Psalm 22

This passage teaches that

In extreme agony Messiah would cry out for God's help.

Messiah would be a despised and rejected individual.

The Messiah's bones would all be pulled out of joint.

The Messiah's heart would rupture.

Messiah would suffer an extreme degree of thirst.

Messiah's hands and feet would be pierced.

Messiah's clothing would be divided by casting of lots.

At the point of death Messiah's trust would be in God the Father.

Messiah would be resurrected.

Bs'd

Psalm 22

To begin with; the Psalms are not prophetic writings. Also Psalm 22 does not claim to prophesize about the messiah. It is nowhere written: The messiah will come and he will call out during his execution: My God, my God, why did you forsake me? This is king David speaking about himself. This Psalm is written mainly in the past tense, and describes the tribulations King David went through. But, as shown before, the authentic messianic prophecies are NOT fulfilled by Jesus, and therefore Christianity has to resort to Biblical texts that have no bearing on the messiah whatsoever, and present them as messianic prophecies. Because of the fact that, according the NT, Jesus quoted Psalms during his execution, the Christians claim that this Psalm must be a prophecy about the messiah. An upside down proof based upon nothing. And even that is not enough. In order to make it a little more authentic Christianity squeezed in the infamous falsification about the “piercing of hand and feet”. See verse 16: “Yea, dogs are round about me; a company of evildoers encircle me; they have pierced my hands and feet.” They say: “Look! Here is the crucifixion, prophesized in the Psalms!”

Point one: It is not written here that that the hands and feet of the messiah would be pierced. Like I pointed out: King David speaks here about himself, and that in the past tense. And on top of that: there is no such a thing as “they pierced my hand an feet”. The Hebrew word that is here translated as 'pierced' is 'ka'arie'. There is no word that even comes close to ka'arie that means piercing. To call this a mistranslation is too euphemistic, we should call this just what it is; another Christian falsification of their Bible translations, in order to squeeze in JC. The word that comes the closest is 'karah', but it is impossible to fit that in here, because that would violate almost every rule in the Hebrew grammar. And besides that, karah does not mean piercing, but 'to dig up, to bring up from the ground' (in the sense of mining)

The Hebrew prefix 'ka' means: 'as the', and the Hebrew word 'arie' means 'lion'. So what it says here is: "Like the lion [they are at] my hands and feet." The text between the square brackets is my insertion. So King David, who is not prophesizing about the messiah here, is speaking about a lion, and not about piercing hands and feet. The same lion he speaks about in verse 13 and 21.

Also the modern day Bible translations translate this in the wrong way. I could find only one Christian Bible translation who translates this verse in the right way, and that is the translation of the Y-H-V-H witnesses. But at least the modern Bible translations have the decency to write that there is no such thing in the Hebrew text.

My edition of the Revised Standard Version has a footnote with the word pierced in verse 16, it says there: "Gk Syr Jerome: Heb like a lion" That means that the translators get the word “pierced” from the ancient Greek translation; the Septuaginth, and from the Syriac translation, and from the Vulgata, the Catholic translation of the Bible into Latin, made by Jerome, on the request of Pope Damascus, in 328 CE. But this: “Heb like a lion” means that they admit that in the Hebrew is written: Like a lion.

Here is the footnote of the New American Standard Bible Update (1995): "Another reading is like a lion, my..."

And here is the footnote of the New International Version: "Some Hebrew manuscripts, Septuagint and Syriac; most Hebrew manuscripts: 'like the lion,"

What the Bible translators are doing here is ignoring the original Hebrew Bible, and translating translations instead, because that fits the Christian theology better.

But the exact same word "ka'arie" is used in Isaiah 38:13. This claim can be checked out by people who cannot read Hebrew, by means of the Christian Hebrew-English interlinear, that is a Hebrew text of the Tanach, (OT), with under each word an English translation. Provided by a Christian institution. Look here: www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Hebrew_Index.htm and look there how it is translated there. It is possible to zoom into the text.
On the right side of the Hebrew text is a normal English translation. Now look at the discrepancy between how the Hebrew is translated right underneath, and how it is translated in the text on the right side. VERY educational!


And look here how the English translations translate the word "ka'arie" in Isaiah 38:11;

New International Version “I waited patiently till dawn, but like a lion he broke all my bones;”

ew American Standard Bible: “I composed my soul until morning. Like a lion--so He breaks all my bones,”

The Message: “I cry for help until morning. Like a lion, God pummels and pounds me,”

Amplified Bible: “I thought and quieted myself until morning. Like a lion He breaks all my bones;”

New Living Translation: “I waited patiently all night, but I was torn apart as though by lions.”

King James Version: “I reckoned till morning, that, as a lion, so will he break all my bones:”

English Standard Version: “I calmed myself until morning; like a lion he breaks all my bones;”

Contemporary English Version: “Until morning came, I thought you would crush my bones just like a hungry lion;”

New King James Version: “ I have considered until morning-- Like a lion, So He breaks all my bones;”

New Century Version: "I waited patiently till dawn, but like a lion he broke all my bones"

21st Century King James Version: “I reckoned till morning that, as a lion, so will He break all my bones;”

American Standard Version: “I quieted myself until morning; as a lion, so he breaketh all my bones:”

Young's Literal Translation: “I have set [Him] till morning as a lion, So doth He break all my bones,”

Darby Translation: “I kept still until the morning; ... as a lion, so doth he break all my bones.”

Revised Standard version: “I cry for help until morning; like a lion he breaks all my bones;”



Another place where we see the word "ka'arie" is in Numbers 24:9. See here how it is there translated:

New International Version “Like a lion they crouch and lie down"

New American Standard Bible: “He crouches, he lies down as a lion"

The Message: “Israel crouches like a lion and naps"

Amplified Bible: “He couched, he lay down as a lion"

New Living Translation: “Like a lion, Israel crouches and lies down"

King James Version: “He couched, he lay down as a lion"

English Standard Version: “He crouched, he lay down like a lion"

Contemporary English Version: “Like a lion you lie down"

New King James Version: “He bows down, he lies down as a lion"

New Century Version: “Like a lion, they lie waiting to attack"

21th Century King James Version: "He couched, he lay down as a lion"

American Standard Version: “He couched, he lay down as a lion"

Young's Literal Translation: “He hath bent, he hath lain down as a lion"

Darby Translation: “He stooped, he lay down like a lion"

Revised Standard version: “He couched, he lay down like a lion"



Also in Ezechiel 22:25 we encounter the same word "ka'arie", followed by the word "sho'eig", which means "roaring".

See here how that is translated:Ezekiel 22:25 KJ21
There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion ravening the prey.

Ezekiel 22:25 ASV
There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion ravening the prey:

Ezekiel 22:25 AMP
There is a conspiracy of [Israel’s false] prophets in the midst of her, like a roaring lion tearing the prey;

Ezekiel 22:25 CEB
The conspiracy of princes in her is like a roaring lion ripping up prey.

Ezekiel 22:25 CJB
There is a conspiracy of prophets in it like a roaring lion tearing up the prey;

Ezekiel 22:25 CEV
Their leaders are like roaring lions, tearing apart their victims.

Ezekiel 22:25 DARBY
There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst of her like a roaring lion ravening the prey;

Ezekiel 22:25 DRA
There is a conspiracy of prophets in the midst thereof: like a lion that roareth and catcheth the prey,

Ezekiel 22:25 ERV
The prophets in Jerusalem are making evil plans. They are like a lion—it roars when it begins to eat the animal it
caught.

Ezekiel 22:25 ESV
The conspiracy of her prophets in her midst is like a roaring lion tearing the prey;

Ezekiel 22:25 ESVUK
The conspiracy of her prophets in her midst is like a roaring lion tearing the prey;

Ezekiel 22:25 EXB
Like a roaring lion that tears ·the animal it has caught [its prey], Israel’s ·rulers [princes] ·make evil plans [conspire].

Ezekiel 22:25 GNV
There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof like a roaring lion, ravening the prey:

Ezekiel 22:25 GW
Your princes are like roaring lions who tear their prey into pieces.

Ezekiel 22:25 GNT
The leaders are like lions roaring over the animals they have killed.

Ezekiel 22:25 HCSB
The conspiracy of her prophets within her is like a roaring lion tearing its prey:

Ezekiel 22:25 KJV
There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion ravening the prey;

Ezekiel 22:25 AKJV
There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion ravening the prey;

Ezechiel 22: KNOX
What of the prophets? A sworn conspiracy; lions roaring for their prey, the lives of men;

Ezekiel 22:25 LEB
The conspiracy of its prophets in the midst of her is like a roaring lion that is tearing prey.

Ezekiel 22:2523- MSG
The leaders among you became desperate, like roaring, ravaging lions killing indiscriminately.

Ezekiel 22:25 NOG
Your princes are like roaring lions who tear their prey into pieces.

Ezekiel 22:25 NASB
There is a conspiracy of her prophets in her midst like a roaring lion tearing the prey.

Ezekiel 22:25 NCV
Like a roaring lion that tears the animal it has caught, Israel’s rulers make evil plans.

Ezekiel 22:25 NET
Her princes within her are like a roaring lion tearing its prey; they have devoured lives.

Ezekiel 22:25 NIRV
“Ezekiel, the princes of the land are like a roaring lion that tears its food apart.

Ezekiel 22:25 NIV
There is a conspiracy of her princes within her like a roaring lion tearing its prey;

Ezekiel 22:25 NIVUK
There is a conspiracy of her princes within her like a roaring lion tearing its prey;

Ezekiel 22:25 NKJV
The conspiracy of her prophets in her midst is like a roaring lion tearing the prey;

Ezekiel 22:25 NLV
Israel’s false religious leaders are making plans within her. They are like a lion making noise over the food it has killed.

Ezekiel 22:25 NLT
Your princes plot conspiracies just as lions stalk their prey.

Ezekiel 22:25 NRSV
Its princes within it are like a roaring lion tearing the prey;

Ezekiel 22:25 NRSVA
Its princes within it are like a roaring lion tearing the prey;

Ezekiel 22:25 NRSVACE
Its princes within it are like a roaring lion tearing the prey;

Ezekiel 22:25 NRSVCE
Its princes within it are like a roaring lion tearing the prey;

Yechezkel 22: OJB
There is a kesher of her nevi’im in the midst thereof, like a roaring ari lion tearing the prey;

Ezekiel 22:25 RSV
Her princes in the midst of her are like a roaring lion tearing the prey; t

Ezekiel 22:25 RSVCE
Her princes in the midst of her are like a roaring lion tearing the prey;

Ezekiel 22:25 VOICE
Her prophets conspire in her midst like raging lions killing their prey;

Ezekiel 22:25 WEB
There is a conspiracy of her prophets within it, like a roaring lion ravening the prey:

Ezekiel 22:25 WYC
Swearing together, either conspiring, of prophets is in the midst thereof; as a lion roaring and taking prey like a lion roaring and taking prey,

Ezekiel 22:25 YLT
A conspiracy of its prophets [is] in its midst, as a roaring lion tearing prey;


So the translators know very well what "ka'arie" means. It is just that in Psalm 22 (almost) all the Christian Bible translators are collectively struck with blindness, and go astray.

But here we see what “ka’arie” means: “As the lion”, and, more important, we clearly see what is does NOT mean: "piercing".

So in Psalm 22 it does not speak about the final messiah, and not about a crucifixion, and the “piercing” in Psalm 22 is just another Christian falsification of their Bible translations.

Elia
April 14th, 2014, 03:22 AM
A Psalm of David.
1 Jehovah saith unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand,
Until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
2 Jehovah will send forth the rod of thy strength out of Zion:
Rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
3 Thy people offer themselves willingly
In the day of thy power, in holy array:
Out of the womb of the morning
Thou hast the dew of thy youth.
4 Jehovah hath sworn, and will not repent:
Thou art a priest for ever
After the order of Melchizedek.
5 The Lord at thy right hand
Will strike through kings in the day of his wrath.
6 He will judge among the nations,
He will fill the places with dead bodies;
He will strike through the head in many countries.
7 He will drink of the brook in the way:
Therefore will he lift up the head.

Psalm 110

This psalm teaches

Messiah would be both king and priest, after the order of Melchizadek.

Messiah would have to be both God and man. To be priest He would have to be man but to sit at the right hand of God He would have to be equal with God.

Messiah's first coming would be rejected.

After Messiah was rejected, He would ascend into heaven.

After His ascension Messiah would sit down at God's right hand.

Messiah will return when Israel accepts Him.

Messiah will rule over Israel in the Messianic Kingdom.

Bs'd

Psalm 110:1; "The Lord says to my lord: Sit at my right hand, till I make your enemies your footstool."

This Psalm is most likely written by an officer in David's army. It says here; The Lord, (in Hebrew Y-H-W-H) says to my lord, (in the sense of master). This is literally translated: Y-H-W-H says to my master: etc. This applies to David, just like the next verse, "The Lord sends forth from Zion your mighty scepter. Rule in the midst of your foes." This is what King David did, God made his enemies a footstool to him, and he ruled from Zion (Jerusalem). Verse 5 and 6: "The Lord is at your right hand, He will shatter kings on the day of his wrath. He will execute judgment among the nations, filling them with corpses." King David slaughtered many of his enemies, as written in this Psalm, but all these things that were never done by Jesus. Therefore it makes no sense to say that this applies to Jesus and not to king David.

-----Here is the explanation of the great Jewish sage from the Middle Ages, rabbi Moshe ben Nachman, a.k.a. the Ramban:

King David was the composer who wrote the Psalms with the aid of the holy spirit. He composed them for the purpose of having them sung before the altar of God. He himself did not sing them, nor was he permitted to do so, for that function was forbidden to him by law of the Torah. (Deuteronomy 18:6-7) Insted, he gave the Psalms to the Levites, so that they would sing them. This is clearly written in the book of I Chronicles 16:7 Therefore, King David perforce expressed the psalm in the language appropriate for utterance by the Levites. Thus, if King David had said; "The Eternal said to me", the levites repeating these words would be uttering falsehood. Instead, it is proper for the Levite to say in the Temple: "The Eternal saith unto my lord: (that is to King David) Sit thou at My right hand." The purport of the term 'sitting' is to state that the Creator, blessed be He, will protect him during his lifetime and that He will save him and cause him to prevail over his enemies. So it was, for he lifted up his spear against eight hundred, whom he slew at one time. This is the right hand of God. It is also written of David: "And Your right hand has holden me up." Psalm 18:36. It is similarly written: "The right hand of the Almighty does valiantly. The right hand of the Eternal is exalted." Psalm 118:15 Regarding Moses our teacher, peace be upon him, it is written: "He caused His glorious arm to go at the right hand of Moses." Isaiah 63:12 And Moses said at the fall of pharaoh: "Thy right hand, O Eternal, dashes the enemy in pieces." Exodus 15:6

Elia
April 14th, 2014, 03:24 AM
4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, and descended?
Who hath gathered the wind in his fists?
Who hath bound the waters in his garment?
Who hath established all the ends of the earth?
What is his name, and what is his son’s name, if thou knowest?

Proverbs 30:4


Bs'd

I know the name of His son:

"Thus says Y-H-W-H: ‘Israel is my first-born son, 23 and I say to you, “Let my son go that he may serve me”; if you refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay your first-born son.’”
Ex 4

Elia
April 14th, 2014, 03:25 AM
24 Seventy weeks are decreed upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy. 25 Know therefore and discern, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the anointed one, the prince, shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: it shall be built again, with street and moat, even in troublous times. 26 And after the threescore and two weeks shall the anointed one be cut off, and shall have nothing: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and even unto the end shall be war; desolations are determined. 27 And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease; and upon the wing of abominations shall come one that maketh desolate; and even unto the full end, and that determined, shall wrath be poured out upon the desolate.

Daniel 9:24-27

This passage teaches that

Messiah would be present 483 after the decree to rebuild Jerusalem.

Media would be legally executed.

Messiahs death would result in the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem.

Messiah's birth and death therefore had to have taken place before AD 70.

Bs'd

Read here what is going on in Daniel 9: https://sites.google.com/site/777mountzion/daniel9

Elia
April 14th, 2014, 03:28 AM
Not only this, but the seed would specifically be of woman, but not of man--typically, when speaking of someone, that person would be said to be of his father's seed. It is telling that Messiah would be human through His mother exclusively here.

Bs'd

Of course it doesn't say anything of the above.

The claim is that the following verses are a messianic prophecy: "The LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, cursed are you above all cattle, and above all wild animals; upon your belly you shall go, and dust you shall eat all the days of your life. I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel." The fact of the matter is that nowhere here is spoken about a messiah, nowhere does it speak about a king or a ruler like it does in the genuine messianic prophecies, here is not spoken about a descendent of David or his father Jesse, the word "messiah" is not used here, there is not spoken here about a redeemer who is going to save the whole world from its sins; those things only exist in the minds of brainwashed Christians when they read this text. The only thing this text says is that there will be enmity between the seed of the woman and the seed of the snake. What is the seed of the woman? All mankind. What is the seed of the snake? Many more snakes. “he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.” That means; men shall kill snakes, and snakes will bite men in the legs. That is all this text says. But even according the Christian understanding there is a big problem. Christianity claims that the snake is the devil, and the seed of the woman is supposed to be JC, who came to crush the head of the serpent. But we see that AFTER the death of JC, as it is written in I Peter 5:8, that the devil is going round like a roaring lion, looking for someone to devour. So unless somebody wants to say that the devil is going round with a crushed head, looking who he can devour, this prophecy is NOT fulfilled. So if you really want to see this as a messianic prophecy, then you can add another one to the unfulfilled messianic prophecies.

intojoy
April 14th, 2014, 03:32 AM
I'd like to begin listing all of the Old Testament prophecies of the first coming of the Messiah. Hopefully these passages will edify us.

jeremysdemo
April 14th, 2014, 05:34 AM
who made your OT?

I know there were a lot of ancient manuscripts that didn't make the cut.

freelight
April 15th, 2014, 03:31 PM
who made your OT?

I know there were a lot of ancient manuscripts that didn't make the cut.

Also consider the 'revisions' made during the Babylonian Captivity, and the oldest extant full version Torahs that exist (relatively late), besides the dead sea scroll wonders.

So many different concepts of the 'Messiah' and more greek-gnostic-pagan 'Christ' figure evolved and are 'suited' according to whatever faith-tradition one accepts. More here (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3766499&postcount=47). The commonalities and differences between Jewish and Christian messianic concepts are for starters, then branch out from there. No one really knows anything, but have adopted a 'Messianic' idea of some varying sort. No one knows anything outside of their own interior experience of a religious or sacred nature, concerning 'God' or a 'Messiah', beyond intellectual idealism.

The factual condition of our global society today doesn't really represent any 'kingdom of God' on earth, besides what each individual religionist or follower of Jesus models in his own life, and personal experience (also mirrored in communites of like faith and genuine spiritual service).





pj

jeremysdemo
April 15th, 2014, 03:50 PM
Also consider the 'revisions' made during the Babylonian Captivity, and the oldest extant full version Torahs that exist (relatively late), besides the dead sea scroll wonders.

So many different concepts of the 'Messiah' and more greek-gnostic-pagan 'Christ' figure evolved and are 'suited' according to whatever faith-tradition one accepts. More here (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3766499&postcount=47). The commonalities and differences between Jewish and Christian messianic concepts are for starters, then branch out from there. No one really knows anything, but have adopted a 'Messianic' idea of some varying sort. No one knows anything outside of their own interior experience of a religious or sacred nature, concerning 'God' or a 'Messiah', beyond intellectual idealism.

The factual condition of our global society today doesn't really represent any 'kingdom of God' on earth, besides what each individual religionist or follower of Jesus models in his own life, and personal experience (also mirrored in communites of like faith and genuine spiritual service).


pj

yes many meanings of Messiah.

for some it is a metaphorical representation of inner spiritual growth.

a way of defining the rebirth of ones soul.

but it doesn't stop there, once one is reborn, it is only the beginning of life.

sadly for some the whole metaphor is a destination place they already arrived at, not a upward moving journey.

freelight
April 15th, 2014, 03:55 PM
yes many meanings of Messiah.

for some it is a metaphorical representation of inner spiritual growth.

a way of defining the rebirth of ones soul.

but it doesn't stop there, once one is reborn, it is only the beginning of life.

sadly for some the whole metaphor is a destination place they already arrived at, not a upward moving journey.


Indeed.

Could you elaborate on the variant readings of the OT, or any parts that you refer to that are not part of the current OT canon? Did you mean various intestamental works like Book of Enoch, Book of Jubilees & the books of the 'Apocrypha'?



pj

jeremysdemo
April 15th, 2014, 04:15 PM
Indeed.

Could you elaborate on the variant readings of the OT, or any parts that you refer to that are not part of the current OT canon? Did you mean various intestamental works like Book of Enoch, Book of Jubilees & the books of the 'Apocrypha'?



pj

good examples for 'Christology' study, Jubilees is chock full of ancient references and dated 150 years before Jesus and his "Son of Man" term.

Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs is another good one with Messianic prophecy.

It's no wonder these text were rejected by the Sanhedrin cannon in the first century.

but I'm sure you know all this already Paul! but for the benefit of readers I re-iterate. :)

remember Jesus saying "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

freelight
April 15th, 2014, 04:50 PM
good examples for 'Christology' study, Jubilees is chock full of ancient references and dated 150 years before Jesus and his "Son of Man" term.

Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs is another good one with Messianic prophecy.

It's no wonder these text were rejected by the Sanhedrin cannon in the first century.

but I'm sure you know all this already Paul! but for the benefit of readers I re-iterate. :)

remember Jesus saying "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Yes, the 'Testament of the 12 Patriarchs' (http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/patriarchs.html)is an excellent example of 'intertestamental Christology' development,...a 'segway' between Jewiah and Christian concepts.

The conundrum with Religion in general continues as far as what part the 'Messiah' is to play in the spiritual progress, enlightenment and unity of mankind, let alone the ushering in of a 'New Era' of Light and Life which most all religious traditions have some hope or concept of. Jesus stressed the inner meanings and values of the kingdom being essentially esoteric, while such inner realization of Spirit would naturally transform all dimensions of one's life in relationships and service in the outer world. This 'kingdom of heaven' really cant be realized or lived, until the 'living principle' and 'spiritual law' of that kingdom is activated within.



pj

jeremysdemo
April 15th, 2014, 04:54 PM
Yes, the 'Testament of the 12 Patriarchs' (http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/patriarchs.html)is an excellent example of 'intertestamental Christology' development,...a 'segway' between Jewiah and Christian concepts.

The conundrum with Religion in general continues as far as what part the 'Messiah' is to play in the spiritual progress, enlightenment and unity of mankind, let alone the ushering in of a 'New Era' of Light and Life which most all religious traditions have some hope or concept of. Jesus stressed the inner meanings and values of the kingdom being essentially esoteric, while such inner realization of Spirit would naturally transform all dimensions of one's life in relationships and service in the outer world. This 'kingdom of heaven' really cant be realized or lived, until the 'living principle' and 'spiritual law' of that kingdom is activated within.



pj

yep yep, His sheep will bear the good fruit.

Like James said the only religion our father accepts as pure and faultless is "." .....and you know the rest!

freelight
April 15th, 2014, 05:09 PM
yep yep, His sheep will bear the good fruit.

Like James said the only religion our father accepts as pure and faultless is "." .....and you know the rest!

James the Just, the Lord's brother would of course know these teachings, since he was rather intimate with Jesus, and was the leading 'pillar' of the disciples of Jesus in Jerusalem ;)



pj

jeremysdemo
April 15th, 2014, 05:10 PM
James the Just, the Lord's brother would of course know these teachings, since he was rather intimate with Jesus, and was the leading 'pillar' of the disciples of Jesus in Jerusalem ;)



pj

true,

my memories of TOL include how many "Christians" threw him and Peter under the bus....:nono:

freelight
April 15th, 2014, 05:26 PM
true,

my memories of TOL include how many "Christians" threw him and Peter under the bus....:nono:

Robert Eisenman's book 'James, brother of Jesus' (http://www.amazon.com/James-Brother-Jesus-Unlocking-Christianity/dp/014025773X) and his other pioneering work on the dead sea scrolls is groundbreaking.



pj

intojoy
April 15th, 2014, 06:40 PM
Half brother

Inchrist1
April 15th, 2014, 07:34 PM
Intojoy,

Keep speaking the truth brother

intojoy
July 21st, 2014, 04:00 AM
There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus. (*Romans‬ *8‬:*1‬ ASV)

kayaker
July 24th, 2014, 10:37 PM
Your post to your spiritually betrothed, Yo-bro:


Thank you for looking here. I got this information from Ariel.org.

I've learned about the extreme cruelty done to your people in the name of "Christ" and as a Christian I owe the Jews a lot of kindness. I do not share Jamie or doormat's doctrines. I'm also not a scholar and have to rely on what they have said on these prophetic passages. I do agree with Ariel ministries in their interpretations of this subject but do not desire to debate with you. I respect your rejection. I could only state that for someone as yourself who is affected personally by those who claim to believe in the Jewish Messiah that there are many variations of false doctrines concerning Yeshua of the first century.

I asked the writer of these quotes from Messianic Christology what he preferred to be identified as. He said that he did not like to use "messianic Judaism" because Yeshua and Judaism are worlds apart as you confirmed in your post. If you ever desire to debate with those Jews that see as you do the inability for Yeshua to be the Messiah in harmony with Judaism, I believe you can avoid those who think Yeshua taught Judaism or think that following Yeshua is predicated by keeping Torah and save yourself the energy by contacting them personally. Dr Arnold Fruchtenbaum is one of our generations greatest scholars.

Your friend,

Intojoy

Now that I've survived my emetic moment: When your betrothed Yo gets the chance to bulldoze that "Muslim crap off the temple mount," he'll be glad to crucify you on the hill, thereof. Am I still on your hate list, ITJ? Sounds to me like your bro Yo afforded you a formal and proper "Jewish" circumcision... of the heart, of course.

The Messiah was to arrive through Judah, correct? Wasn't that one of documented your posts? Any argument from your bro, Yo? Sure, ITJ... You TOTALLY glossed right over the OT fact Judah sired sons via two women:

1) The ISRAELITE Judah's first female co-progenitor was the unnamed CANAANITE daughter of Shuah (Genesis 38:1, 2, 1Chronicles 2:3 KJV). Judah's father-in-law Shuah was the 'son' of Keturah (Genesis 25:4 KJV), wife of Abraham (Genesis 25:1, 2, 3, 4). Moses didn't give Judah's father-in-law Shuah the benefit of even being a 'son' of Abraham. That ought to be one of six (progeny) clues. Oh my... the Lord personally slew the Israelite Judah's first two half-breed, (ISRAELITE/CANAANITE) sons (Genesis 38:6, 7, 8, 9, 10)! How often did the Lord personally kill someone? That ought to be three more clues! The ISRAELITE Judah's second (of three) half-breed sons Onan, knew he shouldn't be hooking up with Judah's ISRAELITE daughter-in-law Tamar. Onan had sex with Tamar, withdrew, and 'spilled his seed on the ground' (Genesis 38:10 KJV). There's a self-proclaimed rebuke of Judah's relationship with a Canaanite by Judah's half-breed son Onan, whose mother was CANAANITE. Even the ISRAELITE Judah knew his third surviving half-breed son Shelah was on the Lords' 'hit list,' and shouldn't hook-up with the ISRAELITE, Tamar (Genesis 38:11 KJV).

The Lord, having personally snuffed Judah's first two of three half-breed sons, PERSONALLY sanctioned HIS set-up for Tamar to play the harlot, don't you think (Genesis 38:11, 26)? Since Onan and Judah both knew the LORD rebuked the relationship between the ISRAELITE Judah and his CANAANITE wife; doesn't it stand to reason Judah's third and surviving half-breed son Shelah would seek a NON-ISRAELITE wife? (Genesis 38:26 KJV). I proffer Judah's 'divinely illuminated' half-breed son Shelah hooked up with his MIDIANITE (another son of Keturah, Genesis 25:1, 2) virgin cousins who entered the congregation of the Lord in Numbers 31:1, 2, 3, 9, 14, 15, 17, 18.

2) Judah also procreated with his widowed, non-virgin, daughter-in-law Tamar, contrary to Leviticus 18:15 KJV, Leviticus 21:7, 9, 13, 14. Not to worry, the Lord Who inspired Levitical Law, also set the stage for the ISRAELITE Tamar to play the harlot, don't you think? King David and Jesus are ancestors of the ISRAELITE Judah and his ISRAELITE daughter-in-law, Tamar' son Pharez (Genesis 38:26, 27, 28, 29) found in Matthew 1:1, 2, 3, and Luke 3:31, 32, 33, 34.

So ITJ... Is your bromance Yo, who mopped your thread with your face, a descendant of the ISRAELITE Judah with his CANAANITE wife via their third surviving half-breed son, Shelah? Or, is your bromance Yo a descendant of the ISRAELITE Judah with his ISRAELITE daughter-in-law, Tamar? And, Yo's gonna tell you David is his king, but can't throw a little white-wash on Jesus as the prophesied Messiah? That's called a hypocrisy, ITJ... And, Jesus called the crucifixion instigators, your beloved Yo's ancestors, descendants of Judah through his half-breed son Shelah, "hypocrites!" seven times in Matthew 23:13, 14, 15, 23, 25, 27, 29. Is your beloved Yo an authentic full-blooded "Jew"? Technically speaking from ancestral authenticity... will the prophesied Messiah via Judah arrive through his half-breed son, Shelah? Or, will the prophesied Messiah via Judah arrive through his illegitimate PURE ISRAELITE son, Pharez (John 8:41 KJV)?

While you are on the road to Damascus with your bro Yo, ITJ... you might bring up the six-thousand year-old prophesy of the arrival generation of the Lord's prophesied Messiah. The arrival generation of the Messiah's arrival generation is found four thousand years prior in Genesis 4:24 KJV. Besides wandering in darkness for six thousand years, your beloved Yo and Judaism are more than a few slices short of Divine inspiration rendering "seventy and sevenfold" beyond an 'undesignated coincidence' (Genesis 4:24 KJV). Take a leap of faith ITJ, and go to Luke 3:38 KJV and begin counting names into the future (in reverse in Luke) with God is #1, Adam is #2, Seth #3... and so forth. Now, exclusively within the first book of Moshe is found the arrival generation of the LORD's Messiah. If the Lord's Messiah is not Jesus... then I suspect you advise your beloved Yo and Judaism to back up a couple thousand years and pick one out. I might suggest Caiaphas (Matthew 26:3, 4, 5)! Maybe even Annas (John18:12, 13, 14)! Both great options as the prophesied messiah of Judaism, seventy seven generations from Almighty God, inclusively.

So, ITJ... who is a true "Jew," and who is a liar... an imposter (Revelation 2:9, 3:9)? Then, try standing in the light like a man ITJ, and ask yourself: Is Yo bro a descendant of Judah's half-breed son Shelah? Or, is Yo bro a descendant of Judah's illegitimate son, Pharez? That's how you cast out demons in the 'name' of Jesus... all 77 inclusive generations, thereof.

kayaker

Ben Masada
July 25th, 2014, 08:56 AM
The first coming of the Messiah was from Egypt about 4,000 years ago when Moses was the Messianic leader to guide the Messiah back into the Promised Land. The second coming of the Messiah was from Babylon when the Messianic leader Cyrus decreed the end of the exile and financed the rebuilding of the Temple. The third coming of the Messiah is still happening from the four corners of the earth which started after the Holocaust which the Messianic leader Herzl tried to save the Messiah from and did not succeed because the Messiah refused to understand him. Soon the Temple will be rebuilt as soon as the abomination of desolation is removed from the Temple Mount with God's help.

Ben Masada
July 25th, 2014, 09:00 AM
There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus. (*Romans‬ *8‬:*1‬ ASV)

What does it mean, that those who are in Christ are free to break all laws and still be free of condemnation? Well Intojoy, it hasn't happened yet.

Ben Masada
July 25th, 2014, 09:04 AM
Intojoy,

Keep speaking the truth brother

Are you sure Intojoy is speaking the truth? Does he or she speaks according to the Law and the prophets? Isaiah said in 8:20 that if one does not speak according to the Law and the Prophets, there is no truth in what he or she speaks. I highly doubt that a Christian can speak according to the Law and the Prophets.

Trumpetfolker
July 25th, 2014, 09:40 AM
and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Gen 3:15

This passage teaches that the Messiah will come thru humanity.

Gen 4:25And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.
And, this one shows that Seth's descendants were Eve's seed. It was about the time Seth's son, Enos, was born that men began to call on the name of the Lord.

Gen 4:26And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.
Some think this points to the beginning of the priestly Order of Melchizedek.

God's Truth
July 25th, 2014, 09:43 AM
I'd like to begin listing all of the Old Testament prophecies of the first coming of the Messiah. Hopefully these passages will edify us.

Those calling themselves Messianic Jews do not want to give up being justified by the things that no longer justify, such as circumcision, and the observance of special days.

Those calling themselves Messianic Jews have other false teachings, such as the death of the spirit after the death of the body.

jeremysdemo
July 25th, 2014, 11:17 AM
intoj

I'd be appreciative of a verse in the OT where it is written the Son of Man must suffer much and be rejected, Mark 9:12.

kayaker
July 25th, 2014, 07:13 PM
BEN MASADA: Soon the Temple will be rebuilt as soon as the abomination of desolation is removed from the Temple Mount with God's help.

And deluded Christian Zionists, like Intojoy and countless others, think the alleged "Jews" are God's chosen people? ROFLOL! No wonder the radical fundamentalist Muslims despise you guys. The only reason they haven't nuked Israel already is because their mosque sits on the temple mount. When you guys bulldoze that mosque... there's nothing stopping them. :Popcorn: And, Ben uses an expression familiar to Christians, "the abomination of desolation" referring to the Muslims? LOL! Who do you think the "Jews" are going to anoint in that Temple?

The "abomination of desolation" is found in Matthew 24:15, 16. Ben refuses to NT document this reference, and exploits the fears and utter lack of knowledge of Christians arguing over whose church is 'chosen.' The "abomination of desolation" is going to STAND in the "Jewish" temple that the "Jews" are going to rebuild after bulldozing the Muslim mosque. Neither Muslims, nor 'legal' Jews (being mixed Israelite-Canaanite progeny via Judah's son Shelah) have ANY inheritance title to the ISRAELITE Promised Land in the middle east.

The whole purpose for Judah offering his Israelite daughter-in-law Tamar to his second half-breed son Onan, after God killed Onan's eldest brother Er, was to fulfill Deuteronomy 25:5, 6. Deuteronomy 25:5, 6 was provided in Mosaic Law so the title of the deceased's property share in the Promised Land passed ONLY to a full-blood Israelite male. Since God killed Er, Judah offered Er's Israelite widow (Tamar) to Er's next eldest brother Onan, to sire a son on behalf of the deceased to inherit Er's portion of the ISRAELITE Promised Land. The only problem was Judah's 'wife' was Canaanite... even though she was the daughter of the Canaanite Shuah (Genesis 38:1, 2, 1Chronicles 2:3), 'son' of Keturah, wife of Abraham (Genesis 25:1, 2, 3, 4). Moses didn't even recognize Shuah, Judah's father-in-law, as a 'son' of Abraham. Shuah wasn't even a pure-pedigree Hebrew.

Deuteronomy 25:5, 6 was all about inheritance of title/ownership of a parcel of the Promised Land to a PURE ISRAELITE descendant. Er, being half-Canaanite, was not entitled to inheritance of Israelite Promised Land in the first place. Likewise, Onan was not a full-blooded Israelite to fulfill the role of husband siring a son on behalf of his deceased half-Canaanite brother, Er. Onan knew this (Genesis 38:9 KJV). Meanwhile, the descendants of Judah and his Canaanite wife via their half-breed son Shelah, currently referred to as "Jews" in Israel, proclaim legal title in the Promised Land. Seriously?

I'm not suggesting the Muslims have any claim to title. Neither do the half-breed, Israelite-Canaanite descendants of Judah... even less so. Christian Zionists are deluded Christians who think the contemporary "Jews" are entitled to the land. This Zionist delusion is totally contrary to the inheritance provision Deuteronomy 25:5, 6 pertaining to strict inheritance of Promised Land by pure Israelites. Such Zionist delusion, Christian and Jewish, is contrary to the Lord who killed the two elder half-breed sons of Judah who were NOT entitled to ownership of a parcel of the ISRAELITE Promised Land. Contemporary "Jews" are, by and large, descendants of Judah's half-breed son, Shelah. No? Then let's ask Ben, with all those remarkable Hebrew 'who begat who' birth records:

BEN MASADA: ARE YOU A DESCENDANT OF JUDAH VIA HIS CANAANITE WIFE? OR, ARE YOU A DESCENDANT OF JUDAH VIA HIS DAUGHTER-IN-LAW, TAMAR?

If you don't know... then how can you claim title to any part of the ISRAELITE Promised Land? Only the descendants of the ISRAELITE Judah and his ISRAELITE daughter-in-law Tamar, are authentic ISRAELITES entitled to the Promised Land.

kayaker

jeremysdemo
July 26th, 2014, 09:22 PM
into? j?

iphone battery dead?

steko
July 26th, 2014, 10:42 PM
And, this one shows that Seth's descendants were Eve's seed. It was about the time Seth's son, Enos, was born that men began to call on the name of the Lord.

Some think this points to the beginning of the priestly Order of Melchizedek.

There is no ''Order" of Melchizedek.

kayaker
July 26th, 2014, 10:54 PM
into? j?

iphone battery dead?

Hey Jeremy...

I pray Intojoy is doing a little soul-searching in the 'name' of Jesus. He's a sharp guy, and know's Scripture fairly well. His thread has been somewhat of an illumination, a sort of realignment of the truth, respectfully. What happened to Yohanan? Where'd Ben Masada go? I suppose those two unveiled, deluded disciples of Satan headed out before the smoke cleared (Revelation 2:9, 3:9). I was just getting warmed up! Ask Ben... we've tangoed a time or two. Ben will tell you being "Jewish" is about being born of a "Jewish" mother... well... what was Keturah's ancestry, then? What was the name of Judah's Canaanite wife? Another time, perhaps.

kayaker

intojoy
December 19th, 2014, 08:36 PM
Legend Thread

patrick jane
December 19th, 2014, 09:00 PM
Legend Thread

i take that back. you're flying high on your meds:chuckle:

patrick jane
December 19th, 2014, 09:03 PM
Hey Jeremy...

I pray Intojoy is doing a little soul-searching in the 'name' of Jesus. He's a sharp guy, and know's Scripture fairly well. His thread has been somewhat of an illumination, a sort of realignment of the truth, respectfully. What happened to Yohanan? Where'd Ben Masada go? I suppose those two unveiled, deluded disciples of Satan headed out before the smoke cleared (Revelation 2:9, 3:9). I was just getting warmed up! Ask Ben... we've tangoed a time or two. Ben will tell you being "Jewish" is about being born of a "Jewish" mother... well... what was Keturah's ancestry, then? What was the name of Judah's Canaanite wife? Another time, perhaps.

kayaker

you can't fight the Jewish. they know ALL:chuckle:

intojoy
December 19th, 2014, 09:48 PM
Jane,
Ever heard people make the claim that Jesus fulfilled Over 200 prophecies?

Well no one ever produced a list.

Here's mine.

Legend thread

kayaker
December 19th, 2014, 11:34 PM
you can't fight the Jewish. they know ALL:chuckle:

LOL! Agreed, patrick jane. That maternal ancestress question sorta challenges the fundamental issue. Focusing on the descendants of Judah: were the descendants of Judah and his Canaanite wife the true Jews? Or, were the descendants of Judah and his daughter-in-law Tamar the true Jews? That's the crux of the issue. King David was a documented Pharzite Jew, descendant of Judah and Tamar via their eldest twin son, Pharez. Then, why won't the alleged "Jews" declare Tamar their maternal ancestress? She isn't their maternal ancestress; Judah's Canaanite wife is their maternal ancestress. Secondly, Pharez was conceived and born contrary to several laws of Leviticus... and, that raises considerable debate over legal title to Promised Land.

Jesus was a Pharzite Jew. The Shelanite 'Jews' instigated the crucifixion... they would today.

kayaker

intojoy
December 20th, 2014, 09:57 AM
Gayaker

kayaker
December 20th, 2014, 10:23 AM
Gayaker

Try answering the question, Intoyourself... Were the descendants of Judah (prophesied progenitor of Messiah) with his Canaanite wife (Genesis 38:1, 2, 1Chronicles 2:3) the ancestrally intact true Jews through whom Messiah would arrive? That union was contrary to Deuteronomy 7:1, 2, 3, and Ezra 9:1, 2. Or, were the descendants of Judah with his daughter-in-law Tamar the ancestrally intact true Jews through whom Messiah would arrive. That union was contrary to Leviticus 18:15 KJV, Leviticus 21:7, 9, 13, 14.

Please don't feel like you're alone in the dark on this one... Intoyourself.

kayaker

intojoy
December 20th, 2014, 05:39 PM
Haha

Daniel1611
December 20th, 2014, 06:14 PM
If Messianic Jews believe in the Gospel of Christ, whey not just call themselves "Christians?" Because they want to hold on to Jewish myths and fables?

steko
December 20th, 2014, 06:17 PM
If Messianic Jews believe in the Gospel of Christ, whey not just call themselves "Christians?" Because they want to hold on to Jewish myths and fables?

Did you disown your parents at the point of salvation?

Daniel1611
December 20th, 2014, 06:26 PM
Did you disown your parents at the point of salvation?

I don't understand your point.

steko
December 20th, 2014, 06:32 PM
I don't understand your point.

Did you change cultures when you became a Christian or did you pretty much continue in the same western gentile culture which you inherited from your forefathers?

Daniel1611
December 20th, 2014, 06:38 PM
Did you change cultures when you became a Christian or did you pretty much continue in the same western gentile culture which you inherited from your forefathers?

Culture and religion aren't the same necessarily. Judaism is a religion. "Messianic Judaism" seems to me an oxymoron. When I believed on Christ I didn't start calling myself a "Christian Occultist." I dropped my antichrist beliefs and believed in the Bible. It's like "Messianic Jews" want to hang on to parts of the Pharisaic religion of modern day Judaism. If what you're getting at is that Jews are Jews regardless of their religion, I don't buy it. Society says Jewish is an ethnicity. I let the Bible be it's own dictionary. The Bible does not record that Jewish is a race or ethnicity. The Bible records people "becoming Jews," such as in Esther 8.

steko
December 20th, 2014, 07:34 PM
Culture and religion aren't the same necessarily.

True


Judaism is a religion.

You likely won't agree but I distinguish between OT Judaism/the historical practices of OT Jews and Rabbinical Judaism which became separated from OT Judaism because of the destruction of the Temple.
Indeed, Judaism is a religion.



"Messianic Judaism" seems to me an oxymoron.

Some Jews upon realizing and receiving Jesus of Nazareth as their OT prophecied Messiah saw no reason to suddenly adopt a gentile culture and leave the traditions which they had known all their lives.

Some of these have chosen a more extreme practice of adherance to the Mosaic law and some have also included Rabbinical and even Kabbalah. I agree that they're wrong in this.



When I believed on Christ I didn't start calling myself a "Christian Occultist." I dropped my antichrist beliefs and believed in the Bible.

When I became a Christian, I renounced Eastern mysticism and all connections to 'antichrist' philosophies and practices.



It's like "Messianic Jews" want to hang on to parts of the Pharisaic religion of modern day Judaism.

Some do.....some don't.
The Jews that I know who have 'become Christian/ received their Messiah.....etc' are a varied lot.
Some have separated themselves entirely from any vestige of an association with a Jewish culture, some retain some, others retain more. Some that I know have been totally renounced by their Jewish relatives and friends as a result of accepting Jesus as Messiah/Christ.



If what you're getting at is that Jews are Jews regardless of their religion, I don't buy it. Society says Jewish is an ethnicity.
Many Jews have a Jewish identity. It's who they are, regardless of what you or anybody else thinks of it.
Some Christians come from an Irish heritage, some a Chinese. Are they to renounce and separate themselves from their ancestry simply because they've become Christians?
I find that there is never any demand for this when it concerns the varied cultures of the world, but when it comes to Jews, suddenly it all changes and they are pressured to stop being Jews. History shows that they were forced to convert at times and renounce any connection to anything Jewish. Was that good? Did the wholely Jewish Church demand that gentiles become Jews upon conversion in the first century? There were some, for sure, but the final verdict of Acts 15 was that the gentiles who were coming to Christ should not be forced to become proselyte Jews and keep the law of Moses. Why should the largely gentile cultured church today now demand that the Jew become a gentile upon conversion?



I let the Bible be it's own dictionary. The Bible does not record that Jewish is a race or ethnicity.

Jacob was a literal man.
GOD changed his name to Israel.
Israel had twelve sons.
One of those sons was named Judah.
Judah was a literal man.
At the time of the exile the term Jew began to be used with reference to the descendants of Judah, Benjamin, Levi and some of the other tribes which returned with Judah.
The Bible does record Jewishness as an ethnicity.


The Bible records people "becoming Jews," such as in Esther 8.


There was a provision for gentiles to become proselyte Jews.
Rahab became a Jew.
Ruth became a Jew and others.
The Persians in Esther's time feared for their lives and many became proselyte Jews.

I don't agree with everything that is practiced within Messianic Judaism. But, I do know ethnic Jews(wrong or right, historical or not, it is a Jewish ethnicity to them very deeply and personal) who see themselves as Jews and also recognize, as I do, that Jesus of Nazareth was a Jew and that He is the promised OT Messiah of the nation of Israel. I see no justification for anyone to deny this nor do I see any right for someone to tell Jews that they are no longer Jews and to break all connections to their Jewish heritage.

I am of Irish, English/German descent. That did not change when I became a Christian.

Daniel1611
December 20th, 2014, 07:49 PM
I understand your point. I still don't accept that the modern day group of people who call themselves "Jews" , and are as white as I am, have anymore of Jacob's blood than I do. And just based on probability, pretty much everyone has at least one ancestor at some point who descends from Jacob.

steko
December 20th, 2014, 08:00 PM
I understand your point. I still don't accept that the modern day group of people who call themselves "Jews" , and are as white as I am, have anymore of Jacob's blood than I do. And just based on probability, pretty much everyone has at least one ancestor at some point who descends from Jacob.

I have no way to know that... either way.

GOD knows.

kayaker
December 20th, 2014, 08:09 PM
Haha

Two studious responses. Moses didn't call Judah's father-in-law a 'son' of Abraham... Moses said Judah's father-in-law Shuah was one of the "children of Keturah", wife of Abraham (Genesis 25:1, 2, 3, 4).

Moses said Judah's father-in-law Shuah was a "Canaanite" (Genesis 38:1, 2).

Ezra said Judah's wife, daughter of the Canaanite Shuah, was a "Canaanitess" (1Chronicles 2:3).

Ezra excluded Judah's half-Canaanite son Shelah, and "The sons of Shelah the son of Judah..." (1Chronicles 4:21) from the tribal roster of Judah in 1Chronicles 4:1 KJV.

The Lord said don't marry a Canaanite (Deuteronomy 7:1, 2, 3).

Ezra recognized that an Israelite hooking up with a Canaanite was a great trespass (Ezra 9:1, 2, 7).

God killed Shelah's two elder brothers (Genesis 38:6, 7, 8, 9, 10).

When a Shelanite practices the traditions of the patriarchs... does that make a Shelanite either a Hebrew, or an ancestrally authentic Jew?

Might want to reconsider Revelation 2:9, 3:9. After all... the Shelanite 'Jews' did instigate the crucifixion.

Does this help any?

kayaker

Daniel1611
December 20th, 2014, 08:13 PM
I have no way to know that... either way.

GOD knows.

It doesn't matter who is descended from the Hebrews. There is neither Jew nor Greek. The whole world is of one blood. If ye are Christ's then are ye Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise. Ethnicity, Race, etc. are not important to God and should not be important to us. But to people who claim they are ethnically "Jews," it seems to be a big deal. So if we look at the majority of people calling themselves "Jews", they are white basically. But we have recorded in the Bible that Moses, Joseph and Paul were all mistaken for Egyptians. And we know that Egyptians are not white. Therefore, if these Hebrews were mistaken for Egyptians, I doubt the Hebrews were white.

steko
December 20th, 2014, 08:38 PM
It doesn't matter who is descended from the Hebrews. There is neither Jew nor Greek. The whole world is of one blood. If ye are Christ's then are ye Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise. Ethnicity, Race, etc. are not important to God and should not be important to us. But to people who claim they are ethnically "Jews," it seems to be a big deal. So if we look at the majority of people calling themselves "Jews", they are white basically. But we have recorded in the Bible that Moses, Joseph and Paul were all mistaken for Egyptians. And we know that Egyptians are not white. Therefore, if these Hebrews were mistaken for Egyptians, I doubt the Hebrews were white.

Yeah, Acts 17. We all descended from Adam and then from either Shem, Ham or Japheth. One blood for sure.

Paul wasn't denying differences in ethnicity but was emphasizing that in Christ there is no rank. At that time, many believing Jews were ranking themselves above Gentile believers. Paul was assuring the Gentiles, women and slaves that they were all on equal footing.

It certainly mattered to GOD that Jesus descended from the Hebrews and that He was a Jew and a descendant of King David.

It would matter to me if a large portion of the world was fixated on my ethnicity, and denied the truth of it, especially if my ancestors and been persecuted, ostracized and had faced extermination at various times in their history. That makes it a 'big deal'.

It appears that lots of people, from many persuasions, are still making it a 'big deal'.

intojoy
December 20th, 2014, 09:32 PM
Two studious responses. Moses didn't call Judah's father-in-law a 'son' of Abraham... Moses said Judah's father-in-law Shuah was one of the "children of Keturah", wife of Abraham (Genesis 25:1, 2, 3, 4).

Moses said Judah's father-in-law Shuah was a "Canaanite" (Genesis 38:1, 2).

Ezra said Judah's wife, daughter of the Canaanite Shuah, was a "Canaanitess" (1Chronicles 2:3).

Ezra excluded Judah's half-Canaanite son Shelah, and "The sons of Shelah the son of Judah..." (1Chronicles 4:21) from the tribal roster of Judah in 1Chronicles 4:1 KJV.

The Lord said don't marry a Canaanite (Deuteronomy 7:1, 2, 3).

Ezra recognized that an Israelite hooking up with a Canaanite was a great trespass (Ezra 9:1, 2, 7).

God killed Shelah's two elder brothers (Genesis 38:6, 7, 8, 9, 10).

When a Shelanite practices the traditions of the patriarchs... does that make a Shelanite either a Hebrew, or an ancestrally authentic Jew?

Might want to reconsider Revelation 2:9, 3:9. After all... the Shelanite 'Jews' did instigate the crucifixion.

Does this help any?

kayaker
Oh I was laughing at your word play into...
Gayaker

intojoy
December 20th, 2014, 09:33 PM
It doesn't matter who is descended from the Hebrews. There is neither Jew nor Greek. The whole world is of one blood. If ye are Christ's then are ye Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise. Ethnicity, Race, etc. are not important to God and should not be important to us. But to people who claim they are ethnically "Jews," it seems to be a big deal. So if we look at the majority of people calling themselves "Jews", they are white basically. But we have recorded in the Bible that Moses, Joseph and Paul were all mistaken for Egyptians. And we know that Egyptians are not white. Therefore, if these Hebrews were mistaken for Egyptians, I doubt the Hebrews were white.

Jesus will not return until the Jews ask Him to.

God's Truth
December 20th, 2014, 09:36 PM
Jesus will not return until the Jews ask Him to.

lol

intojoy
December 20th, 2014, 09:37 PM
That's how GT says Amen

steko
December 20th, 2014, 09:38 PM
Jesus will not return until the Jews ask Him to.

Mat 23:39

Act 3:19

Act 3:20

Act 3:21

God's Truth
December 20th, 2014, 09:47 PM
That's how GT says Amen

No way.

I can hardly believe what you said. You say we are not waiting for Jesus to come, but rather, we are waiting for the time the Jews all get together and ask for Jesus to come.

intojoy
December 20th, 2014, 09:50 PM
Lol

steko
December 20th, 2014, 09:51 PM
No way.

I can hardly believe what you said. You say we are not waiting for Jesus to come, but rather, we are waiting for the time the Jews all get together and ask for Jesus to come.

Both.

kayaker
December 20th, 2014, 09:59 PM
Jesus will not return until the Jews ask Him to.

Appreciating your humor while you circumvent a rather significant ancestral distinction (Revelation 2:9, 3:9)... are you above referring to Matthew 24:30 KJV? That event does follow Matthew 24:15, 28. Have any comment on who the 'Jews' are going to anoint in the temple they're planning on rebuilding? Might take another glance at Revelation 3:10 KJV... you appear to be a prime candidate to welcome the 'Jews' anointed one that will occur before Matthew 24:30 KJV.

kayaker

God's Truth
December 20th, 2014, 10:00 PM
Both.

No.

intojoy
December 20th, 2014, 10:04 PM
Appreciating your humor while you circumvent a rather significant ancestral distinction (Revelation 2:9, 3:9)... are you above referring to Matthew 24:30 KJV? That event does follow Matthew 24:15, 28. Have any comment on who the 'Jews' are going to anoint in the temple they're planning on rebuilding? Might take another glance at Revelation 3:10 KJV... you appear to be a prime candidate to welcome the 'Jews' anointed one that will occur before Matthew 24:30 KJV.

kayaker

I'm doubting you have the newborn human spirit. Why would I discuss doctrine with you as you would be incapable of discerning truth.

Gospel yes. Doctrine no.

kayaker
December 20th, 2014, 10:16 PM
I'm doubting you have the newborn human spirit. Why would I discuss doctrine with you as you would be incapable of discerning truth.

Gospel yes. Doctrine no.

I can quite well discern a Pharzite Jew from a Shelanite impostor. So, you have the gift of discerning spirits, then? What's doctrine about that post above? How about discerning Revelation 2:9, 3:9? Jesus spoke of a specific truth in John 8:31 KJV, John 8:32 KJV. He summed up His point in John 8:44 KJV... does that verse sorta resonate with Revelation 2:9, 3:9? And, what exactly is the ancestral origin of those you worship as 'Jews', anyway?

intojoy
December 20th, 2014, 10:25 PM
I can quite well discern a Pharzite Jew from a Shelanite impostor. So, you have the gift of discerning spirits, then? What's doctrine about that post above? How about discerning Revelation 2:9, 3:9? Jesus spoke of a specific truth in John 8:31 KJV, John 8:32 KJV. He summed up His point in John 8:44 KJV... does that verse sorta resonate with Revelation 2:9, 3:9? And, what exactly is the ancestral origin of those you worship as 'Jews', anyway?

You confirming your lack of the Spirit?

kayaker
December 20th, 2014, 10:32 PM
You confirming your lack of the Spirit?

If you've got the Spirit... were the Shelanite descendants of Judah and his Canaanite wife, ancestrally authentic Jews?

aikido7
December 20th, 2014, 11:31 PM
The ancient Jewish concept of Messiah was an anointed military king who would defeat the powers and principalities that held back the Jews from living freely in their own land.

Messiah was one of the many different theological titles applied to Jesus after his death.

In Jesus’s case, the Gospel writers were driven in large part by the need to make his story conform with pre-existing Jewish expectations about the Messiah.

Understanding this helps us make sense of some of the conflicts and contradictions in the four Gospels.

Any careful reader of the Bible can easily detect there was a major problem of figuring out just where Jesus came from.

Everyone familiar with Christmas carols knows that Jesus was born in Bethlehem; yet he is also known as Jesus of Nazareth, a small town in the Galilee.

To explain this discrepancy, the gospel of Luke invents a deeply implausible story about how, just before Jesus’s birth, his parents traveled from Nazareth to Bethlehem to comply with a Roman census. Such a census never happened in the way it was supposed to. Requiring everyone to travel to the land of their ancestors to be counted would have been a bureaucratic nightmare of the first order.

The details in the gospels make no sense, but that was beside the point.

Jesus had to be given roots in Bethlehem so that he could be born in the same city as King David—the Messiah, after all, was supposed to be a descendant of David’s house.

steko
December 21st, 2014, 12:05 AM
The ancient Jewish concept of Messiah was an anointed military king who would defeat the powers and principalities that held back the Jews from living freely in their own land.

Messiah was one of the many different theological titles applied to Jesus after his death.

In Jesus’s case, the Gospel writers were driven in large part by the need to make his story conform with pre-existing Jewish expectations about the Messiah.

Understanding this helps us make sense of some of the conflicts and contradictions in the four Gospels.

Any careful reader of the Bible can easily detect there was a major problem of figuring out just where Jesus came from.

Everyone familiar with Christmas carols knows that Jesus was born in Bethlehem; yet he is also known as Jesus of Nazareth, a small town in the Galilee.

To explain this discrepancy, the gospel of Luke invents a deeply implausible story about how, just before Jesus’s birth, his parents traveled from Nazareth to Bethlehem to comply with a Roman census. Such a census never happened in the way it was supposed to. Requiring everyone to travel to the land of their ancestors to be counted would have been a bureaucratic nightmare of the first order.

The details in the gospels make no sense, but that was beside the point.

Jesus had to be given roots in Bethlehem so that he could be born in the same city as King David—the Messiah, after all, was supposed to be a descendant of David’s house.

I remember in about 1971, reading the Gospels as a non-Christian, absorbed in eastern pantheism and at the time high on LSD. All that I read appeared contradictory and I remember laughing at the absurdity of it all. I made the statement, "Someday I'll write my on version of the Bible." My friend said, "You'll encounter a tremendous opposition."
I said, "I don't care. I can write at least as good as this stuff."

In 1979, Jesus Christ came into my life, or rather.....I came into His.
The Bible, which before was a closed book to me as far as truly understanding it, suddenly became an open book and it began to all fit together.


1Co 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

kayaker
December 21st, 2014, 08:14 AM
So, intojoy:


If you've got the Spirit... were the Shelanite descendants of Judah and his Canaanite wife, ancestrally authentic Jews?

This answer would appear to be a slam dunk yes, or no. Why so trepidatious? If your Jewish master Dr. Frucktenbaum makes up your mind, please let me know!

kayaker

intojoy
December 21st, 2014, 11:01 PM
Gayaker

kayaker
December 23rd, 2014, 06:03 AM
Gayaker

You crack me up, Joy! LOL! So, 'Messi-ain't-it crystallography' is the newest gig in town. I'm waiting for the next one... 'Islamic-Judaeology'. Polish the crystal ball and paint me a picture: proclaim Jesus a Pharzite Jew, then! Might want to reconsider Luke's account:

Luke 12:49-53 "I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled? 50) But I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how am I straightened till it be accomplished! 51) Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you Nay; but rather division: 52) For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided , three against two, and two against three. 53) The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law."

Was Jesus a Pharzite Jew, Joy? We do proclaim the 'name' of Jesus, don't we? 'Name' as in ancestry?

kayaker

intojoy
December 24th, 2014, 01:40 AM
Gayakology

kayaker
December 24th, 2014, 10:19 AM
Gayakology

LOL! If you'd take a glance away from that rosy mirror of yours for a moment, and polish that crystal ball...

kayaker, adopted Pharzite Jew. Maybe Pharzitology? LOL!

intojoy
February 27th, 2015, 10:05 PM
I'd like to begin listing all of the Old Testament prophecies of the first coming of the Messiah. Hopefully these passages will edify us.

300 fulfilled prophecies at first coming? Wrong. Here's the complete list

Simon Baker
February 27th, 2015, 11:28 PM
Lol

intojoy
February 27th, 2015, 11:39 PM
Simon dudu

Simon Baker
February 27th, 2015, 11:42 PM
Simon dudu

poo to intoYOUrself

freelight
March 1st, 2015, 04:32 PM
300 fulfilled prophecies at first coming? Wrong. Here's the complete list

Remember joyful one,.......no orthodox Jew accepts that any of the OT so called 'messianic' prophesies were fullfilled by Jesus. My previous post here (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3864917&postcount=90) holds. See all links.

Look at the world today....how many messianic prophesies or proofs of a Messiah and his effects do you see on a global level? The Jewish vision of a Messiah reigning is nil......that is according to their scriptural standards. At best, Christians can only claim an assumed 'personal relationship' with Jesus or some inner transformational power thru subjective religious experience "in Christ"....as some way of 'walking with God' or living 'in the kingdom', individually or in communinity. Its essentially esoteric in nature....beyond what external effects such can produce.

Tossing up a laundry list of prophesies doesn't always cut it, since there's so much more to consider here as far as 'messianic concepts' go. This is why most secularists consider such beliefs 'utopian' or merely 'idealistic'.



pj

wordsponge
March 1st, 2015, 05:01 PM
I have found Messianics utilizing PORK Baptism.

intojoy
March 1st, 2015, 05:31 PM
Nolight

freelight
March 1st, 2015, 05:37 PM
Nolight

If you want to intelligently discuss the subject, you'll need the intellectual honesty and creativity to address my last post, with its pertinent links, instead of leaving an ad hominem remark which does little to help your case.

Grow up.


pj

intojoy
March 1st, 2015, 05:38 PM
Zerolight

freelight
March 1st, 2015, 05:45 PM
Zerolight

Thanks for proving my point.

Which makes conversation pointless here unless you have the wherewithal to carry on an intelligent dialogue. We'll be waiting.



pj

intojoy
March 1st, 2015, 06:01 PM
Lightweight

Glen
March 1st, 2015, 07:56 PM
Remember joyful one,.......no orthodox Jew accepts that any of the OT so called 'messianic' prophesies were fullfilled by Jesus. My previous post here (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3864917&postcount=90) holds. See all links.

Look at the world today....how many messianic prophesies or proofs of a Messiah and his effects do you see on a global level? The Jewish vision of a Messiah reigning is nil......that is according to their scriptural standards. At best, Christians can only claim an assumed 'personal relationship' with Jesus or some inner transformational power thru subjective religious experience "in Christ"....as some way of 'walking with God' or living 'in the kingdom', individually or in communinity. Its essentially esoteric in nature....beyond what external effects such can produce.

Tossing up a laundry list of prophesies doesn't always cut it, since there's so much more to consider here as far as 'messianic concepts' go. This is why most secularists consider such beliefs 'utopian' or merely 'idealistic'.



pj

The sleepy soul paradigm of the Divine Messiah Seed within, death being a type of amnesia of that Divine Soul within flesh, depicted by the younger sibling through scripture.

wordsponge
March 3rd, 2015, 05:57 AM
Appears to be another branch of Judaism.

jamie
March 3rd, 2015, 09:31 AM
Appears to be another branch of Judaism.


Jesus is a Messianic Jew, the king of the kingdom of God.

Mosaic Judaism ended in 70 CE to be replaced by Rabbinic Judaism which is not Messianic and is not recognized by Jesus Christ as a valid form of Judaism.

intojoy
March 3rd, 2015, 01:55 PM
Appears to be another branch of Judaism.


Dry sponge
Judaism is based in the law of Moses.
Messianic Judaism is an oxymoron

Messianic Jew is not oxymoronic it is simply a Jewish faith held by a Jew

intojoy
September 2nd, 2015, 02:34 AM
I'd like to begin listing all of the Old Testament prophecies of the first coming of the Messiah. Hopefully these passages will edify us.

@Ben Mesada

RBBI
September 7th, 2015, 08:34 PM
Pity he didn't see it apparently....

intojoy
November 10th, 2015, 10:09 PM
I'd like to begin listing all of the Old Testament prophecies of the first coming of the Messiah. Hopefully these passages will edify us.

Brilliant

JonahofAkron
November 10th, 2015, 11:05 PM
I don't get it. Flame wars?

patrick jane
November 10th, 2015, 11:25 PM
I don't get it. Flame wars?

Hey Jonah - you have to repair the acronym thread post ! -


intojoy is an Israelologist

freelight
January 23rd, 2016, 09:27 PM
Lightweight


More ad hominems from our resident Bozo.

Lets cover my address here (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4242229&postcount=157) (and all linked posts within), to remind you of some important facts about the subject. Perhaps in your 'haitus' away you can sober up a bit and maybe apply some intelligence to the discussion,...wouldn't that be a novel idea?

Try a little sanity, it will do wonders.

intojoy
May 18th, 2016, 07:38 PM
Hatelight


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freelight
May 18th, 2016, 08:32 PM
Hatelight


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No hate here dear. Just an appropriate response with pertinent commentary and research links for your own learning. Jews and Christians differ in their concept of 'Messiah', to say nothing of 'Christology' which is concern within Christian doctrine and apologetics.

The 'anointed one' can refer to one person (whether totally human, a demi-god or God in the flesh), if he's anointed by God's Spirit, OR to a whole nation or community (or a merger of both), which is a popular conception among orthodox Jews using Is. 53 to speak of Isreal as the 'suffering servant'. Taking the priesthood analogy further, the whole nation of Israel are to be a nation of priests, all anointed as a collective Messiah, this nation being God's servant, anointed to serve as his representative. So 'Messiah' from an original Jewish perspective and meaning can include all these various aspects of persons and community, in whatever way they serve the greater good of humanity.

intojoy
May 18th, 2016, 10:46 PM
Gaylight??


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freelight
May 19th, 2016, 07:24 PM
Gaylight??


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I see you're using your 'iphone', but this is still no exuse for not intelligently addressing the discussion-points shared, and adding nothing but one liner 'ad-hominems'. Come on intojoy, you can do better than that. Have a little joy :)

intojoy
May 20th, 2016, 02:11 AM
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160520/71f87daaf4dd65e757795488099c66e0.jpg


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intojoy
May 20th, 2016, 02:38 PM
I see you're using your 'iphone', but this is still no exuse for not intelligently addressing the discussion-points shared, and adding nothing but one liner 'ad-hominems'. Come on intojoy, you can do better than that. Have a little joy :)

I take great delight in messin with gay people. Brings joy to my heart.


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Ben Masada
May 20th, 2016, 03:17 PM
@Ben Mesada

Okay Intojoy, that's true; I am a Messianic Jew but because I believe the Prophets. If you read Prophet Habakkuk 3:13, "The Lord goes forth to save His People; to save His Anointed One." That's what the Messiah is, the Anointed One of the Lord aka Israel, the Jewish People. We are the Messiah, hence, we all are Messianic Jews aka the son of God if you read Exodus 4:22,23. "Israel is My son; so, let My son go that he may serve me."

Ben Masada
May 20th, 2016, 03:35 PM
Dry sponge
Judaism is based in the law of Moses.
Messianic Judaism is an oxymoron

Messianic Jew is not oxymoronic it is simply a Jewish faith held by a Jew

So, Judaism is based in the law of Moses! Do you know something Intojoy? I believe you. It means we have Jesus on our side. He was also based on the Law of Moses. His gospel-preaching was based on the Law of Moses. Hence he implied that to achieve salvation, we must listen to "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:29-31) From reading all these Christian posts in this forum, if Jesus was alive today and posting here, he would be killed much faster.

Ben Masada
May 20th, 2016, 03:54 PM
@Ben Mesada

Okay Intojoy, let's make a deal. Start your list. If you find a single prophecy about Jesus in the Tanach, I promise to become a Christian just as you are. Take my word. For you to be successful you must wait until the "Messianic Jews" finish with their new translation of the Bible. One of them told me that they are preparing a translation of the whole Bible and throughout the Tanach, wherever there is any thing about the Messiah, they will insert the name of Jesus, so that there won't be no more problem with the famous "prove it!"

intojoy
May 20th, 2016, 07:35 PM
Okay Intojoy, let's make a deal. Start your list. If you find a single prophecy about Jesus in the Tanach, I promise to become a Christian just as you are. Take my word. For you to be successful you must wait until the "Messianic Jews" finish with their new translation of the Bible. One of them told me that they are preparing a translation of the whole Bible and throughout the Tanach, wherever there is any thing about the Messiah, they will insert the name of Jesus, so that there won't be no more problem with the famous "prove it!"

Done


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intojoy
May 20th, 2016, 08:03 PM
I'd like to begin listing all of the Old Testament prophecies of the first coming of the Messiah. Hopefully these passages will edify us.

Mmmhmm yes


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freelight
May 20th, 2016, 09:10 PM
I take great delight in messin with gay people. Brings joy to my heart.


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You mean you take great delight in being a nincompoop and assuming the sexual orientation of others.

My former posts hold if you'd like to engage.

See: Jewish Messiah Wanted (http://thejewishhome.org/counter/Wanted.pdf)

Can you disprove the orthodox Jewish claim that Jesus is not their Messiah because of he did not fufill any of the requirements in the list? Read the list in the pdf file above and understand why orthodox Jews reject Jesus as Messiah. That would be a good start.

Lon
May 20th, 2016, 10:22 PM
You mean you take great delight in being a nincompoop and assuming the sexual orientation of others.

My former posts hold if you'd like to engage.

See: Jewish Messiah Wanted (http://thejewishhome.org/counter/Wanted.pdf)

Can you disprove the orthodox Jewish claim that Jesus is not their Messiah because of he did not fufill any of the requirements in the list? Read the list in the pdf file above and understand why orthodox Jews reject Jesus as Messiah. That would be a good start.

More of YOU looking for every reason NOT to like Christianity and looking for lame excuses for continuing to reject it. Why? Because this is who you are. None of us are on a UB website, dude. You fancy yourself a peaceful guy but your passive-aggressive hate for Christianity is horrid. AT LEAST stop lying to yourself. Check out JewsforJesus (http://jewsforjesus.org/answers/prophecy/365-messianic-prophecies) instead of confirmation bias you continually seek and practice. You are NOT as well-informed as you imagine yourself. Far from it. I've read a lot from both of these. Sorry, but a Jew failing to see the fulfillment of the Lord Jesus Christ in Isaiah is as blind as....well as blind as a Urantia dupe.

freelight
May 21st, 2016, 12:32 AM
More of YOU looking for every reason NOT to like Christianity and looking for lame excuses for continuing to reject it. Why? Because this is who you are. None of us are on a UB website, dude. You fancy yourself a peaceful guy but your passive-aggressive hate for Christianity is horrid. AT LEAST stop lying to yourself. Check out JewsforJesus (http://jewsforjesus.org/answers/prophecy/365-messianic-prophecies) instead of confirmation bias you continually seek and practice. You are NOT as well-informed as you imagine yourself. Far from it. I've read a lot from both of these. Sorry, but a Jew failing to see the fulfillment of the Lord Jesus Christ in Isaiah is as blind as....well as blind as a Urantia dupe.

You have a bad habit of butting into other people's dialogues, snooping and assuming so much. Who appointed you to police the forum?

If you can refute Uri Yosef's detailed paper on why Orthodox Jews do not accept Jesus as their Messiah, provided in the pdf file, you're welcome to. Otherwise butt out unless you have something pertinent to share regarding the subject.

Nobody brought up the UB, why are you?

I see a busybody, sock-puppet and buffoon at work.

Please show how Jews for Jesus is not 'confirmation bias'.

intojoy
May 21st, 2016, 12:58 AM
You mean you take great delight in being a nincompoop and assuming the sexual orientation of others.

My former posts hold if you'd like to engage.

See: Jewish Messiah Wanted (http://thejewishhome.org/counter/Wanted.pdf)

Can you disprove the orthodox Jewish claim that Jesus is not their Messiah because of he did not fufill any of the requirements in the list? Read the list in the pdf file above and understand why orthodox Jews reject Jesus as Messiah. That would be a good start.

I don't study error.


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intojoy
May 21st, 2016, 01:09 AM
Which by the way is why I've never read any of your threads. Obvious


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daqq
May 21st, 2016, 02:53 AM
Okay Intojoy, let's make a deal. Start your list. If you find a single prophecy about Jesus in the Tanach, I promise to become a Christian just as you are. Take my word. For you to be successful you must wait until the "Messianic Jews" finish with their new translation of the Bible. One of them told me that they are preparing a translation of the whole Bible and throughout the Tanach, wherever there is any thing about the Messiah, they will insert the name of Jesus, so that there won't be no more problem with the famous "prove it!"

Hi BM, seems the TLV or "Tree of Life Version" was also rendered primarily by Messianic Jews, (from what I think I remember in a write up somewhere), but what version are you speaking of? Does it have a title yet? Or is there an info site online anywhere? Curious.

daqq
May 21st, 2016, 03:10 AM
Okay Intojoy, let's make a deal. Start your list. If you find a single prophecy about Jesus in the Tanach, I promise to become a Christian just as you are. Take my word. For you to be successful you must wait until the "Messianic Jews" finish with their new translation of the Bible. One of them told me that they are preparing a translation of the whole Bible and throughout the Tanach, wherever there is any thing about the Messiah, they will insert the name of Jesus, so that there won't be no more problem with the famous "prove it!"

By the way much of what is written concerning Messiah must come by logical inference. For example Yochanan writes, in Revelation 13:8, "the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world", and yet where can this be found at the foundation of the kosmos? The only place acceptable would of course be Genesis 3:21. Thus one must first be willing to open his or her eyes and believe that this is what Moshe is speaking about when he writes it in the Torah. It is common sense but those who wish to deny it may freely do so, and are justified in their opinions, because it does not come right out and say that this is of what it speaks but rather only implies it. However for the same reason Yeshua says that the leaders of the people were the blind leading the blind, that is, because they could not or simply refused to see such obvious and common sense understandings having been written in the Torah and the Prophets. Also, by the way, the kosmos is likened to a garment. :)

Lon
May 21st, 2016, 01:41 PM
You have a bad habit of butting into other people's dialogues, snooping and assuming so much. Who appointed you to police the forum? :baby:


If you can refute Uri Yosef's detailed paper on why Orthodox Jews do not accept Jesus as their Messiah, provided in the pdf file, you're welcome to.I already did, you never bothered to look at the link. Again, you chase after your own tail and when you catch it, you proffer it up on TOL like the gold it ain't. You are as bad as the atheists that run to sites looking for proverbial nails. Understand something: Most of us here have already seen that, been there, done that. Here, I'll say it again to your obtuse: Jews for Jesus are Jews who have become Christians and know full-well their own Torah.

Otherwise butt out unless you have something pertinent to share regarding the subject.
:DK:


Nobody brought up the UB, why are you?
Because it is your bent, the thing that steers your misinformation and arrogance. Thus, ALWAYS part of the conversation. You look for any excuse and that's what it is. You attack Christianity every chance you get. As I've said, passive/aggressive. You aren't the kind-loving guy you pretend to be with your "Nomaste" :Plain: You lie every time you say it. You are on a Christian website as a wolf in sheep clothing. Admit it, at least to yourself. You have no interest whatsoever in us or our belief about God. None. What's your purpose? Name it! Let's hear the sheep bleat...you are not one of us and not here for that purpose. So, as a debate website, I'll speak and debate where the need is greatest. Your greatest need is the Lord Jesus Christ and His saving atoning work. The body's need is to see you as falsely wearing sheep skin as well as ensure you don't lie to yourself about that prospect.

I see a busybody, sock-puppet and buffoon at work.
At least the sheep-skin comes off for all to see. :up:

Please show how Jews for Jesus is not 'confirmation bias'.
:doh: Because they are JEWS! :doh:

Some of the very things you reject Christianity for are found in Christianity. There IS an imago deo in us. There is a desire for all men to come to the truth (it is the great unifier of all men because God is the Maker and Author of what that is supposed to look like). The reason it 'looks' barbarous is because there are real and actual monsters, barbarians, in the world, PJ! You CAN'T teach the world to sing. The road has always been narrow and there are people hell-bent on going to hell despite your supposed good-intention. You are the kind of guy that want's to save predators, ones that attack and kill humans.

JonahofAkron
May 22nd, 2016, 07:03 AM
:baby:

I already did, you never bothered to look at the link. Again, you chase after your own tail and when you catch it, you proffer it up on TOL like the gold it ain't. You are as bad as the atheists that run to sites looking for proverbial nails. Understand something: Most of us here have already seen that, been there, done that. Here, I'll say it again to your obtuse: Jews for Jesus are Jews who have become Christians and know full-well their own Torah.

:DK:


Because it is your bent, the thing that steers your misinformation and arrogance. Thus, ALWAYS part of the conversation. You look for any excuse and that's what it is. You attack Christianity every chance you get. As I've said, passive/aggressive. You aren't the kind-loving guy you pretend to be with your "Nomaste" :Plain: You lie every time you say it. You are on a Christian website as a wolf in sheep clothing. Admit it, at least to yourself. You have no interest whatsoever in us or our belief about God. None. What's your purpose? Name it! Let's hear the sheep bleat...you are not one of us and not here for that purpose. So, as a debate website, I'll speak and debate where the need is greatest. Your greatest need is the Lord Jesus Christ and His saving atoning work. The body's need is to see you as falsely wearing sheep skin as well as ensure you don't lie to yourself about that prospect.

At least the sheep-skin comes off for all to see. :up:

:doh: Because they are JEWS! :doh:

Some of the very things you reject Christianity for are found in Christianity. There IS an imago deo in us. There is a desire for all men to come to the truth (it is the great unifier of all men because God is the Maker and Author of what that is supposed to look like). The reason it 'looks' barbarous is because there are real and actual monsters, barbarians, in the world, PJ! You CAN'T teach the world to sing. The road has always been narrow and there are people hell-bent on going to hell despite your supposed good-intention. You are the kind of guy that want's to save predators, ones that attack and kill humans.
Agreed. Thank you.

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Sonnet
June 3rd, 2016, 12:16 AM
and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Gen 3:15

This passage teaches that the Messiah will come thru humanity.

Who is the referent of 'thy'?

intojoy
June 3rd, 2016, 01:27 AM
Who is the referent of 'thy'?

I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed
THE ANTICHRIST

and her seed: he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.

The judgment was that the woman, whom he had tempted and thereby brought sin and death into human experience, will produce a seed. In the course of many centuries, a Descendant of this very woman, Eve, is going to be the One who will defeat Satan and will bring life, restoration and salvation to humanity. A day is coming when the Seed of the woman is going to crush Satan's head.


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intojoy
June 6th, 2016, 10:45 PM
What happened here?


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WatchmanOnTheWall
February 21st, 2018, 11:51 AM
and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Gen 3:15

This passage teaches that the Messiah will come thru humanity.

I can beat that. There is a verse that alludes to Jesus' coming before this in Genesis. Bet you don't know which one. :)

patrick jane
February 22nd, 2018, 04:17 AM
I'd like to begin listing all of the Old Testament prophecies of the first coming of the Messiah. Hopefully these passages will edify us.You should get back to sharing your knowledge and wisdom in scripture. What has become of you, dear boy? Humble yourself.

patrick jane
February 22nd, 2018, 04:18 AM
What happened here?


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (https://siteowners.tapatalk.com/byo/displayAndDownloadByoApp?rid=78367)People grew weary of your shenanigans. :rotfl:

patrick jane
February 22nd, 2018, 11:33 AM
Bs'd

See here why that is total nonsense:

When you randomly take Tanach texts which have no bearing on the messiah, and rip them out of context, and then mistranslate them, and then say they are messianic prophecies, then you can make everybody you want the messiah, whether it is Napoleon Bonaparte, Barak Obama, David Koresh, or the rooster of Moshe:

A Chassidic Rabbi Makes a Startling Discovery


My name is Moshe and I am a Chassidic Jew who has, from my youth, learned the words of our Holy Prophets, and has been puzzled by their meaning.
Then, on the day before Yom Kippur, I contemplated the solemnity of the day and was made aware of the amazing meaning of G-d's words. I recognized the fulfillment of 42 Messianic prophecies of the Tenach, and they changed my life forever.


1. Early in the morning I went to get my rooster to fulfill the ancient custom. There in the light I looked into his eyes and saw fulfilled the words, 'I am the rooster* who has seen affliction.' (Lam. 3:1)

2. I took him and swung him around my head as the verse says, 'And he circled his head**.' (Lam 3:5)

3. I moved my hands as I swirled him, as it says, 'Only against me did he turn his hand.' (Lam 3:3)

4. With this he leaped from my hand and started to run. As it says, 'They have run away without seeing good.' (Job 9:25)

5. I cried a short pray to HaShem as it says, 'My words I say out of the bitterness of my soul.' (Job 10:1)

6. He ran from me, fulfilling the verse, 'To me they showed their back and not their face.' (Jer. 32:33)

7/8. I borrowed a cane from a man near me so as to catch him with the rounded edge, as the verse says, 'And Moshe took the stick.' (Ex. 4:20, Num 20:8)

9/10. I tried to catch him with the hook, but only the blows of the cane hit his back as it says, 'Afflicted by the rod of his anger.' (Lam. 3:1 and it also says, 'I struck you with the blows of an enemy.' (Jer. 30:12)

11. He turned to me and I got him right on the cheek fulfilling the verse, 'I have offered my cheek to the one who strikes me.' (Lam. 3:30)

12. He ran from me into a dark corner and I followed after him, as the verse says, 'He has led me and driven me into the darkness and not light.'
(Lam. 3:2)

13. I had him there in the corner as it says; 'All her pursuers overtook her in the small place.' (Lam. 1:3)

14. He stood there silent, as he had been to this time in fulfillment of the words of the prophet, 'He was persecuted and afflicted, be he did not open his mouth.' (Is. 53:7)

15. In that corner there was just nowhere for him to hide from me as the verse says, 'Can a person hide in a concealed place, and I should not see him?' (Jer. 23:25)

16. He was now trapped as the verse says, 'He has walled me in so I cannot escape.' (Lam. 3:7)

17. In his eyes I could see him praying silently to HaShem, 'My G-d my G-d why have you forsaken me?' (Psalm 22:1)

18. Clearly it was fulfilled for him, 'The mighty ones of Bashan encircle me.' (Psalm 22:13)

19. I grabbed him and he started to call out to HaShem.
As the verse says, 'My G-d, I call to you by day and you do not answer and by night and there is no respite.' (Psalm 22:3)

20. But there was no answer as it says, 'Though I would scream out and plead he shut out my prayer.' (Lam. 3:8)

21. It was clearly the end. I grabbed him and took my place in the line waiting to give my rooster to the shochet (ritual slaughterer.) He was silent, 'Like a sheep being led to the slaughter or a ewe to her sharers he did not open his mouth.' (Is. 53:7)

22. The shochet took him by the neck as it says; 'He grasped me by the neck.' (Job 16:12)

23. With that he screamed out, 'Be not far from me because distress is near and there is none to help me.' (Psalm 22:12)

24. He also said, 'Save my soul from the sword.' (Psalm 22:21)

25. He slaughtered him fulfilling 'He was removed from the living land.' (Is. 53:8)

26. He let the blood fall on the floor, as it says, 'I am poured out like water.' (Psalm 22:15)

27. I took the dead chicken and gazed at it as the prophet says, 'They have looked upon me whom they have pierced.' (Zech 12:10)

28/29. I took it to be made kosher. We separated it into pieces snapping it's bones as the verses say, 'All my bones became disjointed.' (Psalm 22:15) 'He has broken my bones.' (Lam 3:4)

30. Then I took him home to cook. My wife removed the skin as it says, 'He has worn away my flesh and skin.' (Lam. 3:4)

31. She placed him in a pot with water, as it says, 'For the waters have reached unto my soul.' (Psalm 69:2)

32. She added many spices as it says, 'And she gave ...many spices.' (1 Kings 10:10)

33. She covered up the pot so it could cook as it says; 'He has placed me in darkness.' (Lam 3:6)

34. The smell of it filled the room as it says, 'That the spices may flow out.' (Song 4:16)

35. After that it was served on the table and we gazed upon it as the verse says, 'I count my bones and they gaze and look upon me.' (Psalm 22:18)

36. He was divided among the members of my family, as it says, 'Therefore I will divide him among the many.' (Is. 53:12)

37/38. We rejoiced and sang as we ate him, as it says, 'I have become a thing of laughter for my people, they sing all day long.' (Lam. 3:14) 'In him our hearts were joyful.' (Psalm 33:21)

39/40/41. After which we were full and praised G-d as it says, 'You shall eat and be satisfied and praise HaShem your G-d.' (Deut. 6:11,8:10,11:15).

42. We truly saw the goodness of G-d as it say, 'You should taste and see that HaShem is good.' (Psalm 34:9)

There were many more messianic prophecies that I could have added that applied to my messianic rooster. Many more he will fulfill when he comes back.

In all seriousness the above example is no different then the lists claiming 200/300/400 prophecies fulfilled by Jesus. They claim the odds against a single person fulfilling them are astronomical. Or of their claims that passages like Psalms 22, or Isaiah 53 are about their messiah/god. Consider this well when you see or hear the claims made by missionaries or just simple Christians who you may meet. If not there may be a prophecy that does really apply: 'They are a people bereft of council and they don't have understanding.'

* In Hebrew the word 'gever' means both 'man' and 'rooster'berew
** In Hebrew the word is resh aleph shin, which can be read as 'rosh' head'


(c) Moshe Shulman, 2000Bs'd

intojoy
February 22nd, 2018, 12:55 PM
You should get back to sharing your knowledge and wisdom in scripture. What has become of you, dear boy? Humble yourself.

There are many here on tol that I like, (but not you) yet their dogmatic views are a dead end for me so I just come along for some gas lighting.


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patrick jane
February 22nd, 2018, 01:31 PM
There are many here on tol that I like, (but not you) yet their dogmatic views are a dead end for me so I just come along for some gas lighting.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkYou just said yesterday I'm an idiot but you still like me. :allsmile:

JonahofAkron
February 27th, 2018, 08:39 PM
I can beat that. There is a verse that alludes to Jesus' coming before this in Genesis. Bet you don't know which one. :)Genesis 1:1, if you're into gematria.

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daqq
February 28th, 2018, 06:55 AM
Genesis 1:1, if you're into gematria.

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I'll bite: please explain. :)

PS ~ Oh wait, 2701, that's a whole thread and more . . . :chuckle:

WatchmanOnTheWall
February 28th, 2018, 08:25 AM
Genesis 1:1, if you're into gematria.

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nope.

JonahofAkron
February 28th, 2018, 09:31 AM
I'll bite: please explain. :)

PS ~ Oh wait, 2701, that's a whole thread and more . . . :chuckle:Give me a few and I'll try to explain it.

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daqq
February 28th, 2018, 09:44 AM
Give me a few and I'll try to explain it.

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:thumb: No hurry.

JonahofAkron
February 28th, 2018, 10:07 AM
:thumb: No hurry."The first two letters of Barasheet are the Hebrew letters Bet and Resh. By combining these two letters, the Hebrew word "Bar" is formed, which means 'son of". For example, the phrase "Simon bar Jonah" means: Simon, son of Jonah, where the Hebrew word "bar" means "son".

1. Bet & Resh = Son of;
2. Aleph = God, the first;
3. Shin = To destroy;
4. Yod = By his effort or hand; and
5. Tav = The cross

If all 6 Hebrew letters in the word Barasheet are used to construct a sentence from the meaning of each letter, the following statement is created:


"The Son of God will be destroyed (or killed) by His own hand (or by his own effort) on the cross.""

Stole this explanation from some website, but it's essentially the same. I don't necessarily agree with it since things are out of order, but there's a few people that definitely think it's real. I thought it was interesting and pertinent, but not accurate.

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daqq
February 28th, 2018, 10:20 AM
"The first two letters of Barasheet are the Hebrew letters Bet and Resh. By combining these two letters, the Hebrew word "Bar" is formed, which means 'son of". For example, the phrase "Simon bar Jonah" means: Simon, son of Jonah, where the Hebrew word "bar" means "son".

1. Bet & Resh = Son of;
2. Aleph = God, the first;
3. Shin = To destroy;
4. Yod = By his effort or hand; and
5. Tav = The cross

If all 6 Hebrew letters in the word Barasheet are used to construct a sentence from the meaning of each letter, the following statement is created:

"

Stole this explanation from some website, but it's essentially the same. I don't necessarily agree with it since things are out of order, but there's a few people that definitely think it's real. I thought it was interesting and pertinent, but not accurate.

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Well, "bar" would actually be Aramaic, (that is, transliterated into English of course), but I see what you are getting at. :)

JonahofAkron
February 28th, 2018, 11:09 AM
Well, "bar" would actually be Aramaic, (that is, transliterated into English of course), but I see what you are getting at. :)

Ha. You are exactly right. Another reason not to trust it. It should have been 'ben'.