PDA

View Full Version : ONLY Y-H-W-H is God, besides Him there is no God



Pages : [1] 2

Elia
April 26th, 2013, 03:35 AM
Bs’d

Who is the God of Israel? The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?

Christianity is very confused about this. A confusion also caused by bad Bible translations. In almost all translations the four lettered name of God, Y-H-W-H, which appears in the Hebrew Bible almost 7000 times, is not mentioned, but replaced by "the LORD".

But here are some Biblical texts which point out WHO is the God of Israel. In these verses the letters of the name of God are written, like in the original Hebrew.


Exodus 29:46 “They will know that I am Y-H-W-H their God, who brought them out of Egypt so that I might dwell among them. I am Y-H-W-H their God.”

Numbers 15:41 “I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of Egypt to be your God. I am Y-H-W-H your God.”

Deuteronomy 10:20-21 “Fear Y-H-W-H your God and serve him. Hold fast to him and take your oaths in his name. He is your praise; he is your God, who performed for you those great and awesome wonders you saw with your own eyes.”

Joshua 24:18 “We too will serve Y-H-W-H , because he is our God.”

II Samuel 22:32 “For who is God besides Y-H-W-H ?”

I Chronicles 16:14 “He is Y-H-W-H our God; his judgments are in all the earth”

II Chronicles 13:10 “As for us, Y-H-W-H is our God, and we have not forsaken him”

Psalm 31:14 “But I trust in you, O Y-H-W-H; I say, "You are my God.”

Psalm 89:6 “For who in the skies above can compare with Y-H-W-H? Who is like Y-H-W-H among the heavenly beings?”

Psalm 91:2 “I will say of Y-H-W-H , "He is my refuge and my fortress, my God, in whom I trust.”

Psalm 100:3 “Know that Y-H-W-H is God. It is he who made us.”

Psalm 105:7 “He is Y-H-W-H our God; his judgments are in all the earth;”

Psalm 118:27 “Y-H-W-H is God, and he has made his light shine upon us.”

Psalm 140:6 “O Y-H-W-H, I say to you, "You are my God”

Isaiah 25:1 “O Y-H-W-H, you are my God.”

Isaiah 41:13 “For I am Y-H-W-H , your God;”

Isaiah 43:3 “For I am Y-H-W-H , your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior;”

Isaiah 51:15 “For I am Y-H-W-H your God, who churns up the sea so that its waves roar- Y-H-W-H Almighty is his name”

Jeremiah 3:22-23 “Yes, we will come to you, for you are Y-H-W-H our God”

Jeremiah 10:10 “But Y-H-W-H is the true God; he is the living God, the eternal King.;”

Jeremiah 31:18 “Restore me, and I will return, because you are Y-H-W-H my God.”

Habakkuk 1:12 “O Y-H-W-H, are you not from everlasting? My God, my Holy One, we will not die.”



And is there, except for this God Y-H-W-H, any other god?



Deuteronomy 4:35 “You were shown these things so that you might know that Y-H-W-H is God; besides him there is no other.”

Deuteronomy 4:39 “Acknowledge and take to heart this day that Y-H-W-H is God in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other.”

II Samuel 7:22 “How great you are, O Sovereign Y-H-W-H! There is no one like you, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.”

I Kings 8:60 “so that all the peoples of the earth may know that Y-H-W-H is God and that there is no other.”

I Chronicles 17:20 “There is no one like you, O Y-H-W-H, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.”

II Chronicles 6:14 “O Y-H-W-H, God of Israel, there is no God like you in heaven or on earth.”

Nehemiah 9:6 “You alone are Y-H-W-H.”

Isaiah 45:21-23 “You are my witnesses," declares Y-H-W-H, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me."

Isaiah 44:6 “This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.”

Isaiah 45:5-6 “I am Y-H-W-H , and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me, so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides me."

Isaiah 45:21-23 “Declare what is to be, present it- let them take counsel together. Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past? Was it not I, Y-H-W-H? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me. Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.”

Joel 2:27 “Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am Y-H-W-H your God, and that there is no other;”



Exodus 20:1-3 “And God spoke all these words: "I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME.”



Eliyahu, light unto the nations


"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

Markseasigh
April 26th, 2013, 03:37 AM
Psalm 68:4 KJV - Sing unto God, sing praises to his name: extol him that rideth upon the heavens by his name JAH, and rejoice before him.

Praise JAH!

AMEN!

Markseasigh
April 26th, 2013, 04:41 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGg__SX8HyM

JAH GOD.

PROTECT US.

PRAISE GOD FOR JAH IS WORTHY OF PRAISE!!!!

:drum:


Jah
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
"JAH" redirects here. For other uses, see JAH (disambiguation).
Rastafari
movement
1897 flag of Ethiopia
Main doctrines

Jah
Zion
Cannabis use

Jah (pron.: /ˈdʒɑː/; Hebrew: יהּ‎ = Yah) is the shortened form of the divine name YHWH (also spelled Jehovah or Yahweh), an anglicized version of the Tetragrammaton (YHWH, Latin JHVH). The name is most commonly associated with the Rastafari movement or within the word hallelujah, although Christian groups may use the name to varying degrees. The name is used in some English Bible translations which reconstruct the Tetragrammaton. Other versions sometimes use the academic Hebrew reconstruction "Yah". Some languages use the letter "I" instead of "Y" or "J": Other languages use CH (Choctaw), S (Tongan), and Z (Chin).

chrysostom
April 26th, 2013, 04:48 AM
Christianity is very confused about this. A confusion also caused by bad Bible translations.

we are not confused about Jesus

Markseasigh
April 26th, 2013, 04:49 AM
"Catholics", or what do you mean?

chrysostom
April 26th, 2013, 04:52 AM
Jesus is God

Markseasigh
April 26th, 2013, 04:58 AM
How can the FATHER, also be the SON?

or worse, how can the SON, be his own FATHER?

please explain catholic. with a Bible verse.

I've used a Bible Verse that contains the NAME OF GOD. Prove me Wrong with the Bible and I will believe. BUT YOU CANT, cause I know Gods name JAH. YHWH

Psalm 68:4 KJV - Sing unto God, sing praises to his name: extol him that rideth upon the heavens by his name JAH, and rejoice before him

chrysostom
April 26th, 2013, 05:04 AM
please explain catholic. with a Bible verse.


a bible verse is not going to help you

common sense may

Markseasigh
April 26th, 2013, 05:07 AM
actually,

this

Psalm 68:4 KJV - Sing unto God, sing praises to his name: extol him that rideth upon the heavens by his name JAH, and rejoice before him

proves you can't teach a catholic, from the Word of God. They only learn by word of popery.

Or, you don't have your own Bible to check the verse. Or, you don't care who God is.

oatmeal
April 26th, 2013, 05:07 AM
Bs’d

Who is the God of Israel? The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?

Christianity is very confused about this. A confusion also caused by bad Bible translations. In almost all translations the four lettered name of God, Y-H-W-H, which appears in the Hebrew Bible almost 7000 times, is not mentioned, but replaced by "the LORD".

But here are some Biblical texts which point out WHO is the God of Israel. In these verses the letters of the name of God are written, like in the original Hebrew.


Exodus 29:46 “They will know that I am Y-H-W-H their God, who brought them out of Egypt so that I might dwell among them. I am Y-H-W-H their God.”

Numbers 15:41 “I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of Egypt to be your God. I am Y-H-W-H your God.”

Deuteronomy 10:20-21 “Fear Y-H-W-H your God and serve him. Hold fast to him and take your oaths in his name. He is your praise; he is your God, who performed for you those great and awesome wonders you saw with your own eyes.”

Joshua 24:18 “We too will serve Y-H-W-H , because he is our God.”

II Samuel 22:32 “For who is God besides Y-H-W-H ?”

I Chronicles 16:14 “He is Y-H-W-H our God; his judgments are in all the earth”

II Chronicles 13:10 “As for us, Y-H-W-H is our God, and we have not forsaken him”

Psalm 31:14 “But I trust in you, O Y-H-W-H; I say, "You are my God.”

Psalm 89:6 “For who in the skies above can compare with Y-H-W-H? Who is like Y-H-W-H among the heavenly beings?”

Psalm 91:2 “I will say of Y-H-W-H , "He is my refuge and my fortress, my God, in whom I trust.”

Psalm 100:3 “Know that Y-H-W-H is God. It is he who made us.”

Psalm 105:7 “He is Y-H-W-H our God; his judgments are in all the earth;”

Psalm 118:27 “Y-H-W-H is God, and he has made his light shine upon us.”

Psalm 140:6 “O Y-H-W-H, I say to you, "You are my God”

Isaiah 25:1 “O Y-H-W-H, you are my God.”

Isaiah 41:13 “For I am Y-H-W-H , your God;”

Isaiah 43:3 “For I am Y-H-W-H , your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior;”

Isaiah 51:15 “For I am Y-H-W-H your God, who churns up the sea so that its waves roar- Y-H-W-H Almighty is his name”

Jeremiah 3:22-23 “Yes, we will come to you, for you are Y-H-W-H our God”

Jeremiah 10:10 “But Y-H-W-H is the true God; he is the living God, the eternal King.;”

Jeremiah 31:18 “Restore me, and I will return, because you are Y-H-W-H my God.”

Habakkuk 1:12 “O Y-H-W-H, are you not from everlasting? My God, my Holy One, we will not die.”



And is there, except for this God Y-H-W-H, any other god?



Deuteronomy 4:35 “You were shown these things so that you might know that Y-H-W-H is God; besides him there is no other.”

Deuteronomy 4:39 “Acknowledge and take to heart this day that Y-H-W-H is God in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other.”

II Samuel 7:22 “How great you are, O Sovereign Y-H-W-H! There is no one like you, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.”

I Kings 8:60 “so that all the peoples of the earth may know that Y-H-W-H is God and that there is no other.”

I Chronicles 17:20 “There is no one like you, O Y-H-W-H, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.”

II Chronicles 6:14 “O Y-H-W-H, God of Israel, there is no God like you in heaven or on earth.”

Nehemiah 9:6 “You alone are Y-H-W-H.”

Isaiah 45:21-23 “You are my witnesses," declares Y-H-W-H, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me."

Isaiah 44:6 “This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.”

Isaiah 45:5-6 “I am Y-H-W-H , and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me, so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides me."

Isaiah 45:21-23 “Declare what is to be, present it- let them take counsel together. Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past? Was it not I, Y-H-W-H? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me. Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.”

Joel 2:27 “Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am Y-H-W-H your God, and that there is no other;”



Exodus 20:1-3 “And God spoke all these words: "I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME.”



Eliyahu, light unto the nations


"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

Your verses are very clear!

How interesting that the pronouns, he, him, his, are singular, not plural!

God is one, God is a he, not a they.

God is one, not a three in one.

God alone is God, Jesus Christ is the son of God, a human, a prophet of God.

The Holy Spirit is simply another name, among many, that God uses to communicate His attributes.

God has done this many times in scripture. Jehovah, Elohim, El, El Shaddai, Rock, Fortress, Shield, Buckler, High Tower, Redeemer, Savior,....

He is all those things and more.

God is multifaceted.

God is God but He is not His own son.

God is God

The son of God is the son of God

They are not the same being, they are not the same person.

oatmeal

chrysostom
April 26th, 2013, 05:08 AM
actually,

this

Psalm 68:4 KJV - Sing unto God, sing praises to his name: extol him that rideth upon the heavens by his name JAH, and rejoice before him

proves you can't teach a catholic, from the word of God. They only learn by word of popery.

Or, you don't have your own Bible to check the verse. Or, you don't care who God is.

we have our own bible
and
it is called the new testament

Markseasigh
April 26th, 2013, 05:31 AM
we have our own bible
and
it is called the new testament

LOL I LOVE THE NEW TESTAMENT. THOSE ARE THE BOOKS WITH JESUS IN IT WHERE HE SAYS, "SEE THESE GOSPELS, THEY ARE HOLY", now guess what books He was speaking of????? in the new testament??????????

thats right! the old testament. Jesus Himself testified that the Gospels of the day were Holy.

YOU FORGOT THE MAJORITY OF THE BOOK THOUGH.

the old testament. Hopefully the Catholic Bible still contains that, Correct?

Mat 4:23 KJV - And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.
Mat 11:5 KJV - The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.
Mat 24:14 KJV - And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Elia
April 26th, 2013, 06:58 AM
we are not confused about Jesus


Bs'd

If you think he was God, divine, and/or the messiah, then you are very confused about him.


Eliyahu

Elia
April 26th, 2013, 07:06 AM
Jesus is God

Bs'd

Some people just don't get it.

I'll repeat this: There is only one God, and His name is Y-H-W-H.


Deuteronomy 4:35 “You were shown these things so that you might know that Y-H-W-H is God; besides him there is no other.”

Deuteronomy 4:39 “Acknowledge and take to heart this day that Y-H-W-H is God in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other.”

II Samuel 7:22 “How great you are, O Sovereign Y-H-W-H! There is no one like you, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.”

I Kings 8:60 “so that all the peoples of the earth may know that Y-H-W-H is God and that there is no other.”

I Chronicles 17:20 “There is no one like you, O Y-H-W-H, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.”

II Chronicles 6:14 “O Y-H-W-H, God of Israel, there is no God like you in heaven or on earth.”

Nehemiah 9:6 “You alone are Y-H-W-H.”

Isaiah 45:21-23 “You are my witnesses," declares Y-H-W-H, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me."

Isaiah 44:6 “This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.”

Isaiah 45:5-6 “I am Y-H-W-H , and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me, so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides me."

Isaiah 45:21-23 “Declare what is to be, present it- let them take counsel together. Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past? Was it not I, Y-H-W-H? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me. Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.”

Joel 2:27 “Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am Y-H-W-H your God, and that there is no other;”



Exodus 20:1-3 “And God spoke all these words: "I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME.”

So besides Y-H-W-H there is no other God, and it is forbidden to have any other gods before Him.

That is how we know that JC is not God, and not divine.

And we know he was not the messiah, because he didn't fulfill the messianic prophecies.




Eliyahu, light unto the nations


"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

Elia
April 26th, 2013, 07:08 AM
a bible verse is not going to help you

common sense may

Bs'd

You shove the Bible aside in order to put your own ideas in stead??

Elia
April 26th, 2013, 07:13 AM
we have our own bible
and
it is called the new testament

Bs'd

The problem with your NT is, that it claims to be the fulfillment of the Hebrew Bible, the OT.

And therefore, the NT cannot go against the Tanach. (OT) [OT = Only Testament]

And therefore, when the Tanach makes it clear above any doubt, that only Y-H-W-H is God, and NOBODY else, than that is it.

No other gods possible.

No other gods allowed.



Eliyahu, light unto the nations


"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

Markseasigh
April 26th, 2013, 07:32 AM
Wait!

So, Jesus, is not worshipable to you?

Elia
April 26th, 2013, 07:45 AM
Wait!

So, Jesus, is not worshipable to you?

Bs'd

There is only ONE worshipable, and that is Y-H-W-H.

Anybody who worships something or somebody else than Y-H-W-H is an IDOL WORSHIPER!!

And therefore JC is not worshipable.


Eliyahu, light unto the nations


"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

Markseasigh
April 26th, 2013, 07:48 AM
So, Elia, you don't believe Jesus Died and rose again? And, is the Savior to Humanity?

Apple7
April 26th, 2013, 07:49 AM
To the Jews who believe that Yahweh is one:


To you it was revealed, so that you might know that Yahweh is HaElohim (literally: all the Gods), and no one else besides Him. (Deut 4.35)

Yahweh is ‘all the Gods’?

‘All the Gods’ are one Yahweh?



Again, a few verses later, we read…

Know today, and turn back your heart to it, that Yahweh, He is HaElohim (literally: all the Gods) in the heavens above and on the earth beneath; there is no other. (Deut 4.39)

Yahweh is ‘all the Gods’ both in heaven and on earth?

What is the Triune Yahweh doing on earth?

Markseasigh
April 26th, 2013, 07:51 AM
NO!

Yahweh is JAH, or JAHOVAH.

the hebrew word elohi'ym means gods.

the word Elohi'ym means the GOD ALMIGHTY.

In the Biblical Phrase

I The LORD your God, is God of gods, and Lord of lords.

really says,

I JAHOVAH your God (Elohi'ym), is Elohi'ym of elohi'ym, and Adon'ai of adon.

SO

THE LORD God is JAHOVAH, or YHWH, cause the word "LORD" = JAH

PRAISE JAH FOR GOD IS WORTHY OF PRAISE!

Elia
April 26th, 2013, 08:00 AM
So, Elia, you don't believe Jesus Died and rose again?

Bs'd

I believe he died. I don't believe he rose again. Why should i?


Even in the New Testament there is NOT ONE SINGLE WITNESS of his resurrection. No man saw him get up from the grave and walk away.

Oh, but he appeared to his disciples. Well, in that case, can you explain to me why nobody recognized him? Look in Luke 24:13-35. This speaks about the men on the road to Emmaus. JC met them, but they didn't recognize him.

The same thing happens in John 20:14; "At this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus. "Woman," he said, "why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?" Thinking he was the gardener, she said, ... "
She thought JC was the gardener....

John 21:4 "Early in the morning, Jesus stood on the shore, but the disciples did not realize that it was Jesus. He called out to them, ..."

And again they didn't recognize him.

Isn't it strange that they didn't recognize the person with whom they were so close for years?

But the NT gives the answer to that strange phenomena. Look in Mark 16:12-13 "Afterward Jesus appeared IN A DIFFERENT FORM to two of them while they were walking in the country."
So it was a person "in a different form" from the previous well known JC who appeared to them, that's why they didn't recognize him.

A person in different form from the old JC, who was not recognized by the people he interacted with for years, only days before, doesn't that sounds like an impostor who is pretending to be the resurrected JC?

That also explains why some of the disciples doubted when the "resurrected JC" appeared to them: "When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted." Matt 28:17.

Can you imagine that the authentic JC appears to you and you still doubt?
Apparently he was not so authentic.

If the disciples, who saw the "resurrected JC" with their own eyes, still doubted, why then do the Christians 2000 years later, who have nothing to go by but stories, don't doubt?


And, is the Savior to Humanity?

Here is who is my savior:

Isaiah 43:3: "For I am Y-H-W-H thy God, the Holy one of Israel, thy saviour."

Isaiah 43:10-11: "Before Me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me, even I, I am Y-H-W-H, and beside Me there is no saviour."

Isaiah 45:21-22: "... I Y-H-W-H, and there is no God else beside Me, a just G.d and a saviour, there is no saviour beside Me. Look unto Me and be you saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God and there is none else."

Hosea 13:4: "Yet I am Y-H-W-H thy God, and thou shall know no God but Me, for there is no saviour beside Me."




Eliyahu, light unto the nations


"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

Elia
April 26th, 2013, 08:04 AM
NO!

Yahweh is JAH, or JAHOVAH.

the hebrew word elohi'ym means gods.

the word Elohi'ym means the GOD ALMIGHTY.

In the Biblical Phrase

I The LORD your God, is God of gods, and Lord of lords.

really says,

I JAHOVAH your God (Elohi'ym), is Elohi'ym of elohi'ym, and Adon'ai of adon.

SO

THE LORD God is JAHOVAH, or YHWH, cause the word "LORD" = JAH

PRAISE JAH FOR GOD IS WORTHY OF PRAISE!

Bs'd

The word "elohiem" means "powers".

Because of the fact that God is the source of all powers, He is addressed as "elohiem", but the word "elohiem" is also used for mighty men, leaders, judges, and more.

Moses is 2 times called an "elohiem", in Ex 4:16, and Ex 7:1.



Eliyahu, light unto the nations


"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

Markseasigh
April 26th, 2013, 08:07 AM
Because when Jesus died the earth shook.

and the Temple veil to the HOLY OF HOLY's was torn.

and those fathers who were dead, rose from the dead.

what about that part of the Bible.... Do you believe the NEW TESTAMENT OR NO?

Markseasigh
April 26th, 2013, 08:10 AM
Gen 2:4 KJV - These [428] [are] the generations [8435] of the heavens [8064] and of the earth [776] when they were created [1254], in the day [3117] that the LORD [3068] God [430] made [6213] the earth [776] and the heavens [8064],

see lord here HW # 3068 = JAHOVAH,

and the God HW # 430 = Elohi'ym

or God, cause otherwise this verse would read. "In the day that the JAHOVAH "POWERS" made the earth and the Heavens. correct? according to you?

Strong's H430 - 'elohiym
אֱלֹהִים

Transliteration

'elohiym


Pronunciation

el·ō·hēm' (Key)

Part of Speech

masculine noun


Root Word (Etymology)

Plural of אֱלוֹהַּ (H433)

TWOT Reference

93c
Outl

1) (plural)

a) rulers, judges

b) divine ones

c) angels

d) gods

2) (plural intensive - singular meaning)

a) god, goddess

b) godlike one

c) works or special possessions of God

d) the (true) God

e) God

Elia
April 26th, 2013, 09:26 AM
Because when Jesus died the earth shook.

and the Temple veil to the HOLY OF HOLY's was torn.

and those fathers who were dead, rose from the dead.

what about that part of the Bible.... Do you believe the NEW TESTAMENT OR NO?

Bs'd

I do NOT believe in the NT.

Elia
April 26th, 2013, 09:29 AM
Gen 2:4 KJV - These [428] [are] the generations [8435] of the heavens [8064] and of the earth [776] when they were created [1254], in the day [3117] that the LORD [3068] God [430] made [6213] the earth [776] and the heavens [8064],

see lord here HW # 3068 = JAHOVAH,

and the God HW # 430 = Elohi'ym

or God, cause otherwise this verse would read. "In the day that the JAHOVAH "POWERS" made the earth and the Heavens. correct? according to you?

Bs'd

That should be: "In the day that Y-H-W-H, the source of all powers, made the heaven and the earth."

Because Y-H-W-H is the source of all powers, He is addressed with "powers", and the word "powers" is also used in the sense of "God".



Eliyahu

Elia
April 26th, 2013, 09:33 AM
[FONT="Comic Sans MS"]To the Jews who believe that Yahweh is one:

Bs'd

To the pagan idolaters who believe Y-H-W-H is not one:



שמע ישראל י-ה-ו-ה אלהנו י-ה-ו-ה אחד

Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is [COLOR="Red"]ONE.

And you shall love Y-H-W-H your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.
And these words which I command you this day shall be upon your heart;
and you shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise.
And you shall bind them as a sign upon your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.
And you shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.
Deut 6:4-9



"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"Listen, Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is One" Holman Christian Standard Bible

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." English Standard Version

"Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!" New American Standard Bible

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." New International Version

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!" New King James Version"



"And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, "Which commandment is the first of all?" Jesus answered, "The first is, `Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, THE LORD IS ONE; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' The second is this, `You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." And the scribe said to him, "You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that HE IS ONE, and there is no other but he; and to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices." And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God."" Mark 12:28-34 Revised Standard Version

“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one." .... "You are right in saying that God is one" New International Version

"Here is the most important one. Moses said, 'Israel, listen to me. The Lord is our God. The Lord is one." .... "You are right in saying that God is one." New International Readers Version

"Jesus answered: Listen, Israel! The Lord our God, The Lord is One." .... "You have correctly said that He is One," Holman Christian Standard Bible

"Jesus answered, The first is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God, the Lord is one:" .... "thou hast well said that he is one;" American Standard Version

"Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one." New King James Version

"Jesus answered, "The most important is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one" .... "You have truly said that he is one," English Standard Version

"Jesus said, "The first in importance is, 'Listen, Israel: The Lord your God is one;" .... "A wonderful answer, Teacher! So lucid and accurate—that God is one" The Message

"‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one." .... “You are right in saying that God is one" New International Version



"Now an intermediary implies more than one; but GOD IS ONE." Gal 3:20 Revised Standard Version

"Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but GOD IS ONE" King James Version

"A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but GOD IS ONE." New International Version

"Now an intermediary implies more than one, but GOD IS ONE." English Standard Version

"Now a mediator is not a mediator of one; but GOD IS ONE." American Standard Version

"and the mediator is not of one, and GOD IS ONE" Youngs Literal Translation



"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." James 2:19 Revised Standard Version

"thou -- thou dost believe that GOD IS ONE; thou dost well," Youngs Literal translation

"Thou believest that GOD IS ONE; thou doest well:" American Standard Version

"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." Holman Christian Standard Bible.

"*Thou* believest that GOD IS ONE. Thou doest well." Darby Translation.

"It’s good that you believe that GOD IS ONE." Common English Bible

"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." English Standard Version

"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." Amplified Bible

"You believe that GOD IS ONE You do well;" New American Standard Bible


So the Bible teaches clearly that God is ONE.



"And J-e-h-o-v-a-h shall be King over all the earth: in that day shall J-e-h-o-v-a-h be one, and his name one." Zach 14:9 American Standard Version

"And the LORD shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be— “The LORD is one, And His name one." New King James Version

"And the LORD will be king over all the earth. On that day the LORD will be one and his name one." English Standard Version

"And the Lord shall be King over all the earth; in that day the Lord shall be one and His name one." Amplified Bible


"And God spoke all these words, saying, "I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. [i][SIZE="5"]YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME."




Eliyahu, light unto the nations


"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

OMEGA
April 26th, 2013, 09:37 AM
Elia,

Context Context Context.
===============================
Isa 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

9 ¶ They that make a graven image are all of them vanity; and their delectable things shall not profit; and they are their own witnesses; they see not, nor know; that they may be ashamed.
10 Who hath formed a god, or molten a graven image that is profitable for nothing?
===============================

Before me there was NO GOD MADE. MADE MADE MADE.

Jehovah was just berating them for Making Idols and not obeying him.

We have proven time and times and half a time that There are Two Gods Ruling the Universe.

Isa 26:13 O LORD our God, other lords beside thee have had dominion over us:

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts;

I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isa 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it?
ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me:

I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

Isa 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together:

who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time?

have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me;

a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

Isa 56:8 The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith,

Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.

Elia
April 26th, 2013, 09:39 AM
To the Jews who believe that Yahweh is one:


To you it was revealed, so that you might know that Yahweh is HaElohim (literally: all the Gods), and no one else besides Him. (Deut 4.35)

Yahweh is ‘all the Gods’?

Bs'd

No, of course He is not "all the Gods".

The problem is that you don't know Hebrew.


What is the Triune Yahweh doing on earth?[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR]

There is no "triune Y-H-W-H. Doesn't exist.

As usual you seeing things that don't exist.




Eliyahu

Elia
April 26th, 2013, 09:43 AM
Elia,

Context Context Context.

Before me there was NO GOD MADE. MADE MADE MADE.

Jehovah was just berating them for Making Idols and not obeying him.

We have proven time and times and half a time that There are Two Gods Ruling the Universe.

Give it up.

Bs'd

You can't fight the word of God:


"Know therefore this day, and consider it in your heart, that Y-H-W-H he is G.d in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath; there is no other." Deuteronomy 4:39

"See now that I, even I, am He, and there is no god with me." Deuteronomy..32:39

"I am He, before Me no god was created, neither shall there be after Me." Isaiah 43:10

"Thus saith Y-H-W-H , the King of Israel and his redeemer, the LORD of hosts, I am the first, and I am the last, and beside Me there is no god." Isaiah 44:6

"I am Y-H-W-H , and there is none else." Isaiah 45:18


Let us now take a look at the message that the New Testament is trying to give us, armed with the knowledge that, as shown before, there is one G.d, and that one G.d is one. Surprising as it may be, in the New Testament G.d is also one. Look for this fact at the following verses: Mark 12:29-34. Here Jesus himself, when asked what is the first commandment, quotes Deuteronomy 6:4: "Hear Israel, the Lord our G.d is one Lord." And in verse 32 he is answered: "There is one G.d, and there is no other than He", upon which Jesus replies: "You are not far from the kingdom of G.d."

So also for Jesus there clearly is one G.d who is one.

And what about Paul, who wrote more than half of all the books of the New Testament, what does he think about it?

Romans 3:30: "Seeing it is one G.d, …"

I Corinthians 8:4: "We know that an idol is nothing in the world and that there is no other G.d than one."

idem verse 6: "But to us there is but one G.d …"

Ephesians 4:6; "One G.d and father of all, …"

I Timothy 2:5; "For there is one G.d …"

And look what James says in James 2:19; "You believe that there is one G.d, and you do well."


Also in the New Testament there is one G.d who is one.


Somebody who believes in two gods is an polytheist and an idol worshiper.



Eliyahu, light unto the nations


"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

Elia
April 26th, 2013, 09:47 AM
What is the Triune Yahweh doing on earth?


Bs'd


"Woe to those who call evil good and good evil,
who put darkness for light and light for darkness,
who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter."
Isaiah 5:20

Woe to those who call three one, and one three!



Eliyahu, light unto the nations


"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

Markseasigh
April 26th, 2013, 09:52 AM
Elia, doesn't it go like this?

LORD = JAHOVAH

Lord = Adon'ai

lord = adon

God = Elohi'ym

gods = elohi'ym

sons of God = ben e Elohi'ym

GOD = JAHOVIH

?

JUST WONDERING....

cause I always thought that elohiym meant many gods. like the canaanites had many elohiym.

also, I think that Elohi'ym is the word used for JAH, or All Powerful Creator God. so like the God of gods is really, "the Elohi'ym of elohiym."

Strong's H430 - 'elohiym
אֱלֹהִים

Transliteration

'elohiym


Pronunciation

el·ō·hēm' (Key)

Part of Speech

masculine noun


Root Word (Etymology)

Plural of אֱלוֹהַּ (H433)

TWOT Reference

93c
Outl

1) (plural)

a) rulers, judges

b) divine ones

c) angels

d) gods

2) (plural intensive - singular meaning)

a) god, goddess

b) godlike one

c) works or special possessions of God

d) the (true) God

e) God

"POWERS"
is not mentioned, how do you explain.

I think elohi'ym means gods, like many divine beings, and Elohi'ym means the supreme all mighty Being they.

being that the im suffix in hebrew is a plural masculine word.... RIGHT?

OMEGA
April 26th, 2013, 09:58 AM
You can't fight the word of God:
------------------------------------

But you can UNDERSTAND IT by correct translation and Context.

Jehovah / Jesus was the God of the HEBREWS by Contract with them.

He was Ruling over them and the Earth and that was His Commission to do.

God the Father was off taking care of the Rest of the vast Universe.

The Earth was Jehovah's baby , his Responsibility.

JESUS introduced the Father in the New Testament because

the Father was not around or nearby the Earth.

Jesus/Jehovah went and got the Father to come by and help him with the Birth and Resurrection process.

-----------------------------

Isa 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.
9 ¶ They that make a graven image are all of them vanity; and their delectable things shall not profit; and they are their own witnesses; they see not, nor know; that they may be ashamed.
10 Who hath formed a god, or molten a graven image that is profitable for nothing?
11 Behold, all his fellows shall be ashamed: and the workmen, they are of men: let them all be gathered together, let them stand up; yet they shall fear, and they shall be ashamed together.
12 The smith with the tongs both worketh in the coals, and fashioneth it with hammers, and worketh it with the strength of his arms: yea, he is hungry, and his strength faileth: he drinketh no water, and is faint.
-----------------------------

Elia
April 26th, 2013, 10:02 AM
You can't fight the word of God:
------------------------------------

But you can UNDERSTAND IT by correct translation and Context.

-----------------------------

Bs'd

So you understand that when the Bible says that there is only one God, that there are two??

Markseasigh
April 26th, 2013, 10:05 AM
WAIT! only crazy people believe that Jesus and God are the same being.

JESUS WAS BORN EVERYBODY!!!!

what is your take on the holy ghost?

Psa 51:11 KJV - Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
Isa 63:10 KJV - But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, [and] he fought against them.
Isa 63:11 KJV - Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, [and] his people, [saying], Where [is] he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where [is] he that put his holy Spirit within him?

or holy spirit?

Is this not also God?

OMEGA
April 26th, 2013, 10:14 AM
Elia Kuriakin said,

So you understand that when the Bible says that there is only one God, that there are two??

-------------------------

My dear Jewish brother, when it says that the LORD OUR G-d is One Lord

it means that HE is One Person and not many Idols.

Notice it says "OUR " which means the HEBREWS ONLY at that time.

LORD means their Ruler who they are subservient to.

But they were Turning to Idols instead of their One God.

And Because they KEPT TURNING AWAY the Lord G-d said
that HE would POUR out his spirit INTO them and give them a
NEW HEART.

How was he going to do this ????

--> JESUS came and developed the proper Godly Character

and the OTHER GOD in the Universe came to HELP with the Process.

God the Father is the BIG BOSS and JESUS/Jehovah was showing how

to Serve Him. They are Partners. They are both God Beings and co-operate

with each other.

NEXT QUESTION..........

----------------

OMEGA
April 26th, 2013, 10:15 AM
MARKSEES,

We have already explained in countless threads exactly what the Comforter is.

OMEGA
April 26th, 2013, 11:45 AM
Oh well, I guess that I am right again.
==========================

Markseasigh
April 26th, 2013, 11:52 AM
thats right.

God is one

Jesus is one

Holy Ghost is one

Amen.

False Prophet
April 26th, 2013, 12:27 PM
God said, "Let covetousness, wrath, malice, jealousy, quarrel, folly and shamelessness, and other stern passions tear the bodies of all embodied creatures." 'It will be, O Death, as thou sayest. Meanwhile, slay creatures duly. Sin shall not be thine, nor shall I seek to injure thee, O auspicious one. Those tear-drops of thine that are in my hands, even they will become diseases, springing from living creatures themselves. They will kill men; and if men are killed, sin shall not be thine. Therefore, do not fear, Indeed, sin shall not be thine. Devoted to righteousness, and observant of thy duty, thou shalt sway (all creatures). Therefore, take thou always the fives of these living creatures. Casting off both desire and wrath, take thou the life of all living creatures. Even thus will eternal virtue be thine. Sin will stay those that are of wicked behaviour.

OriginalOatmeal
April 26th, 2013, 07:39 PM
The Jews were suppose to be called Christians. Christianity started with Christ from eternity and not from when He came to earth as a baby. Israel followed God in the desert centuries before Christ landed His UFO on earth to save His people from their sins for those interested. Israel followed Christ before Christ was born of the virgin Mary. The followers of Christ are called Christians. Christianity is the first and only true religion.

Elia
April 28th, 2013, 10:32 PM
Elia, doesn't it go like this?

LORD = JAHOVAH

Lord = Adon'ai

lord = adon

God = Elohi'ym

gods = elohi'ym

sons of God = ben e Elohi'ym

GOD = JAHOVIH

?

JUST WONDERING....

cause I always thought that elohiym meant many gods. like the canaanites had many elohiym.

also, I think that Elohi'ym is the word used for JAH, or All Powerful Creator God. so like the God of gods is really, "the Elohi'ym of elohiym."

Strong's H430 - 'elohiym
אֱלֹהִים

Transliteration

'elohiym


Pronunciation

el·ō·hēm' (Key)

Part of Speech

masculine noun


Root Word (Etymology)

Plural of אֱלוֹהַּ (H433)

TWOT Reference

93c
Outl

1) (plural)

a) rulers, judges

b) divine ones

c) angels

d) gods

2) (plural intensive - singular meaning)

a) god, goddess

b) godlike one

c) works or special possessions of God

d) the (true) God

e) God

"POWERS"
is not mentioned, how do you explain.

I think elohi'ym means gods, like many divine beings, and Elohi'ym means the supreme all mighty Being they.

being that the im suffix in hebrew is a plural masculine word.... RIGHT?

Bs'd

No.


Eliyahu

Elia
April 28th, 2013, 10:34 PM
The Jews were suppose to be called Christians. Christianity started with Christ from eternity and not from when He came to earth as a baby. Israel followed God in the desert centuries before Christ landed His UFO on earth to save His people from their sins for those interested. Israel followed Christ before Christ was born of the virgin Mary. The followers of Christ are called Christians. Christianity is the first and only true religion.


Bs'd

Read here how JC did NOT fulfill the messianic prophecies, and why he is not God, not the son of God, not divine, and not the messiah:

http://Mountzion.notlong.com



Eliyahu, light unto the nations


"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

Elia
April 28th, 2013, 10:35 PM
thats right.

God is one

Jesus is one

Holy Ghost is one

Amen.

Bs'd

And 1 + 1 + 1 = 3, and not 1.


Keep that in mind.



Eliyahu, light unto the nations


"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

Elia
April 28th, 2013, 10:38 PM
WAIT! only crazy people believe that Jesus and God are the same being.

JESUS WAS BORN EVERYBODY!!!!

what is your take on the holy ghost?

Psa 51:11 KJV - Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
Isa 63:10 KJV - But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, [and] he fought against them.
Isa 63:11 KJV - Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, [and] his people, [saying], Where [is] he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where [is] he that put his holy Spirit within him?

or holy spirit?

Is this not also God?


Bs'd

No, the holy spirit is not also God, because there is only ONE God who IS ONE, and that is Y-H-W-H, and besides Him there is no God.

Therefore the hg or JC are not also gods.


Eliyahu, light unto the nations


"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

Elia
April 28th, 2013, 10:43 PM
Elia Kuriakin said,

So you understand that when the Bible says that there is only one God, that there are two??

-------------------------

My dear Jewish brother, when it says that the LORD OUR G-d is One Lord

it means that HE is One Person and not many Idols.

Bs'd

This is what God says:



שמע ישראל י-ה-ו-ה אלהנו י-ה-ו-ה אחד

Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE.

And you shall love Y-H-W-H your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.
And these words which I command you this day shall be upon your heart;
and you shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise.
And you shall bind them as a sign upon your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.
And you shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.
Deut 6:4-9

Y-H-W-H, the one and only God who is one.

Beside Him there is no God, no Buddha, no JC, no David Koresh; NOBODY.

Whoever worships anything or anybody else than Y-H-W-H is an IDOL WORSHIPER.


Notice it says "OUR " which means the HEBREWS ONLY at that time.

LORD means their Ruler who they are subservient to.

But they were Turning to Idols instead of their One God.

And Because they KEPT TURNING AWAY the Lord G-d said
that HE would POUR out his spirit INTO them and give them a
NEW HEART.

How was he going to do this ????

--> JESUS came and developed the proper Godly Character

and the OTHER GOD in the Universe came to HELP with the Process.

There is no "other God".

Believing in more than one God is polytheism and idol worship.

Deuteronomy 4:35 “You were shown these things so that you might know that Y-H-W-H is God; besides him there is no other.”

Deuteronomy 4:39 “Acknowledge and take to heart this day that Y-H-W-H is God in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other.”

II Samuel 7:22 “How great you are, O Sovereign Y-H-W-H! There is no one like you, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.”

I Kings 8:60 “so that all the peoples of the earth may know that Y-H-W-H is God and that there is no other.”

I Chronicles 17:20 “There is no one like you, O Y-H-W-H, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.”

II Chronicles 6:14 “O Y-H-W-H, God of Israel, there is no God like you in heaven or on earth.”

Nehemiah 9:6 “You alone are Y-H-W-H.”

Isaiah 45:21-23 “You are my witnesses," declares Y-H-W-H, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me."

Isaiah 44:6 “This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.”

Isaiah 45:5-6 “I am Y-H-W-H , and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me, so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides me."

Isaiah 45:21-23 “Declare what is to be, present it- let them take counsel together. Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past? Was it not I, Y-H-W-H? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me. Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.”

Joel 2:27 “Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am Y-H-W-H your God, and that there is no other;”



Exodus 20:1-3 “And God spoke all these words: "I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME.”


God the Father is the BIG BOSS and JESUS/Jehovah was showing how

to Serve Him. They are Partners. They are both God Beings and co-operate with each other.

"And God spoke all these words, saying, "I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME."
Ex 20:1



Eliyahu, light unto the nations


"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

Elia
April 29th, 2013, 10:39 PM
Bs'd

"And God spoke all these words, saying, "I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME."
Exodus 20:1



Eliyahu, light unto the nations


"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

Apple7
April 29th, 2013, 11:00 PM
Which of these verses supposedly thwarts the Trinity?

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q271/Tanis_AZ/KO/dudley_picture.gif

Elia
April 29th, 2013, 11:19 PM
Which of these verses supposedly thwarts the Trinity?

Bs'd

All of the following:

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"Listen, Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is One" Holman Christian Standard Bible

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." English Standard Version

"Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!" New American Standard Bible

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." New International Version

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!" New King James Version"



"And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, "Which commandment is the first of all?" Jesus answered, "The first is, `Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, THE LORD IS ONE; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' The second is this, `You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." And the scribe said to him, "You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that HE IS ONE, and there is no other but he; and to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices." And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God."" Mark 12:28-34 Revised Standard Version

“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one." .... "You are right in saying that God is one" New International Version

"Here is the most important one. Moses said, 'Israel, listen to me. The Lord is our God. The Lord is one." .... "You are right in saying that God is one." New International Readers Version

"Jesus answered: Listen, Israel! The Lord our God, The Lord is One." .... "You have correctly said that He is One," Holman Christian Standard Bible

"Jesus answered, The first is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God, the Lord is one:" .... "thou hast well said that he is one;" American Standard Version

"Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one." New King James Version

"Jesus answered, "The most important is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one" .... "You have truly said that he is one," English Standard Version

"Jesus said, "The first in importance is, 'Listen, Israel: The Lord your God is one;" .... "A wonderful answer, Teacher! So lucid and accurate—that God is one" The Message

"‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one." .... “You are right in saying that God is one" New International Version



"Now an intermediary implies more than one; but GOD IS ONE." Gal 3:20 Revised Standard Version

"Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but GOD IS ONE" King James Version

"A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but GOD IS ONE." New International Version

"Now an intermediary implies more than one, but GOD IS ONE." English Standard Version

"Now a mediator is not a mediator of one; but GOD IS ONE." American Standard Version

"and the mediator is not of one, and GOD IS ONE" Youngs Literal Translation



"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." James 2:19 Revised Standard Version

"thou -- thou dost believe that GOD IS ONE; thou dost well," Youngs Literal translation

"Thou believest that GOD IS ONE; thou doest well:" American Standard Version

"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." Holman Christian Standard Bible.

"*Thou* believest that GOD IS ONE. Thou doest well." Darby Translation.

"It’s good that you believe that GOD IS ONE." Common English Bible

"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." English Standard Version

"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." Amplified Bible

"You believe that GOD IS ONE You do well;" New American Standard Bible


So the Bible teaches clearly that God is ONE.



"And J-e-h-o-v-a-h shall be King over all the earth: in that day shall J-e-h-o-v-a-h be one, and his name one." Zach 14:9 American Standard Version

"And the LORD shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be— “The LORD is one, And His name one." New King James Version

"And the LORD will be king over all the earth. On that day the LORD will be one and his name one." English Standard Version

"And the Lord shall be King over all the earth; in that day the Lord shall be one [in the recognition and worship of men] and His name one." Amplified Bible



Eliyahu, light unto the nations


"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

Elia
May 1st, 2013, 05:11 AM
Bs'd

"And God spoke all these words, saying, "I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME."
Ex 20:1




Eliyahu, light unto the nations

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

Wile E. Coyote
May 1st, 2013, 10:00 AM
Bs'd

"And God spoke all these words, saying, "I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME."
Ex 20:1




Eliyahu, light unto the nations

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
Note the first part of hte verse. YHWH said, "I brought you out of the land of Egypt. yet moses said that Malak YHWH delivered htem (Num. 20:13). Malak YHWH claimed to be God, Exodus 3:1-6.

Source:

Twenty-five years ago, rabbinical scholar Alan Segal produced what is still the major work on the idea of two powers in heaven in Jewish thought. Segal argued that the two powers idea was not deemed heretical in Jewish theology until the second century C.E. He carefully traced the roots of the teaching back into the Second Temple era (ca. 200 B.C.E.). Segal was able to establish that the idea’s antecedents were in the Hebrew Bible, specifically passages like Dan 7:9ff., Exo 23:20-23, and Exo 15:3. However, he was unable to discern any coherent religious framework from which these passages and others were conceptually derived. Persian dualism was unacceptable as an explanation since neither of the two powers in heaven were evil. Segal speculated that the divine warrior imagery of the broader ancient near east likely had some relationship...

...The binitarian portrayal of Yahweh in the Hebrew Bible was motivated by this belief.

The ancient Israelite knew two Yahwehs—one invisible, a spirit, the other visible, often in human form. The two Yahwehs at times appear together in the text, at times being distinguished, at other times not.

Early Judaism understood this portrayal and its rationale. There was no sense of a violation of monotheism since either figure was indeed Yahweh. There was no second distinct god running the affairs of the cosmos. During the Second Temple period, Jewish theologians and writers speculated on an identity for the second Yahweh. Guesses ranged from divinized humans from the stories of the Hebrew Bible to exalted angels. These speculations were not considered unorthodox. That acceptance changed when certain Jews, the early Christians, connected Jesus with this orthodox Jewish idea. This explains why these Jews, the first converts to following Jesus the Christ, could simultaneously worship the God of Israel and Jesus, and yet refuse to acknowledge any other god. Jesus was the incarnate second Yahweh. In response, as Segal’s work demonstrated, Judaism pronounced the two powers teaching a heresy sometime in the second century A.D.
From Two Powers in Heaven.

And here is Segal's book, you can still buy it: Two Powers in Heaven: Early Rabbinic Reports about Christianity and Gnosticism.

Elia
May 1st, 2013, 10:33 AM
Note the first part of hte verse. YHWH said, "I brought you out of the land of Egypt. yet moses said that Malak YHWH delivered htem (Num. 20:13). Malak YHWH claimed to be God, Exodus 3:1-6.

Bs'd

I know that Christians believe that God is his own son, and at the same time his own father, and at the same time his own servant, (Isaiah 53) and at the same time his own angel/messanger (the word translated with "angel" means "messenger", and is always like that translated, except when it speaks about messengers from God).

But, of course, I also know the above is total idiocy, and I know that the Bible teaches that there is only ONE God who is ONE, and his name is Y-H-W-H.


Source:

Twenty-five years ago, rabbinical scholar Alan Segal produced what is st

Interesting, but my source is the Torah:



שמע ישראל י-ה-ו-ה אלהנו י-ה-ו-ה אחד

Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE.

And you shall love Y-H-W-H your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.
And these words which I command you this day shall be upon your heart;
and you shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise.
And you shall bind them as a sign upon your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.
And you shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.
Deut 6:4-9

Y-H-W-H, the one and only God who is one.

Beside Him there is no God, no Buddha, no JC, no David Koresh; NOBODY.

Whoever worships anything or anybody else than Y-H-W-H is an IDOL WORSHIPER.



The ancient Israelite knew two Yahwehs—one invisible, a spirit, the other visible, often in human form. The two Yahwehs at times appear together in the text, at times being distinguished, at other times not.

You are a genuine polytheist and idol worshiper.


Early Judaism understood this portrayal and its rationale. There was no sense of a violation of monot

And here is Segal's book, you can still buy it: Two Powers in Heaven: Early Rabbinic Reports about Christianity and Gnosticism.[/COLOR]

Here is Gods Book, it'll tell you all you need to know:

http://scheinerman.net/judaism/_images/ashk-torah.jpg


And this is what is written in that Torah:

Deuteronomy 4:35 “You were shown these things so that you might know that Y-H-W-H is God; besides him there is no other.”

Deuteronomy 4:39 “Acknowledge and take to heart this day that Y-H-W-H is God in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other.”

II Samuel 7:22 “How great you are, O Sovereign Y-H-W-H! There is no one like you, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.”

I Kings 8:60 “so that all the peoples of the earth may know that Y-H-W-H is God and that there is no other.”

I Chronicles 17:20 “There is no one like you, O Y-H-W-H, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.”

II Chronicles 6:14 “O Y-H-W-H, God of Israel, there is no God like you in heaven or on earth.”

Nehemiah 9:6 “You alone are Y-H-W-H.”

Isaiah 45:21-23 “You are my witnesses," declares Y-H-W-H, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me."

Isaiah 44:6 “This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.”

Isaiah 45:5-6 “I am Y-H-W-H , and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me, so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides me."

Isaiah 45:21-23 “Declare what is to be, present it- let them take counsel together. Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past? Was it not I, Y-H-W-H? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me. Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.”

Joel 2:27 “Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am Y-H-W-H your God, and that there is no other;”



Exodus 20:1-3 “And God spoke all these words: "I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME.”



Eliyahu, light unto the nations

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

Elia
May 1st, 2013, 09:33 PM
Bs'd

And 1 + 1 + 1 = 3, and not 1.


Keep that in mind.

Bs'd

And a "God the Father" and a "god the son", that is TWO (2) gods, and that is polytheism, and that is IDOLATRY.

Please keep that in mind as well.




Eliyahu, light unto the nations


"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

Apple7
May 2nd, 2013, 07:41 PM
Bs'd

And a "God the Father" and a "god the son", that is TWO (2) gods, and that is polytheism, and that is IDOLATRY.

Please keep that in mind as well.




Eliyahu, light unto the nations


"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5


How do you worship God any differently TODAY over that of your forefathers who did it incorrectly according to your prophets?

Run from it...

Elia
May 4th, 2013, 11:41 AM
How do you worship God any differently TODAY over that of your forefathers who did it incorrectly according to your prophets?


Bs'd

Some of the ancient Jews used to worship the Ba'al, or Ashtoreth.

The difference is that I only worship the one and only true God who is one, and His name is Y-H-W-H.


You are however in denial about your idolatry:

The Catholics who pretend that their religion is the right religion, are in denial of the fact that they are worshiping statues.

The Catholics who pretend that their religion is the right religion, are in denial of the fact that their clergy are child rapists, the result of the Catholic celibate.

The Catholics who pretend that their religion is the right religion, are in denial of the fact that JC didn't fulfill the messianic prophecies.

The Catholics who pretend that their religion is the right religion, are in denial of the fact that the Bible teaches that God is one, and not three, and not a trinity.

The Catholics who pretend that their religion is the right religion, are in denial of the fact that they threw overboard the law of God and replaced it with paganism.

The Catholics who pretend that their religion is the right religion, are in denial of the fact that a God the Father and a god the son is TWO (2) gods.


Amen and HalleluJah!


Run from it! :dog:




Eliyahu, light unto the nations

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

Apple7
May 4th, 2013, 01:19 PM
Bs'd

Some of the ancient Jews used to worship the Ba'al, or Ashtoreth.

The difference is that I only worship the one and only true God who is one, and His name is Y-H-W-H.


You deny the Triunity of Yahweh.

Thus...you do not worship God correctly.

Your Tanak states that Enoch was found righteous because he walked with 'haelohim'...'all the Gods'.

Your Tanak states that Moses was found righteous because he walked with 'haelohim'...'all the Gods'.

Your Tanak states that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were all found righteous because they walked with 'haelohim'...'all the Gods'.


Looks like you're the odd one out...

Wile E. Coyote
May 4th, 2013, 01:21 PM
You deny the Triunity of Yahweh.

Thus...you do not worship God correctly.

Your Tanak states that Enoch was found righteous because he walked with 'haelohim'...'all the Gods'.

Your Tanak states that Moses was found righteous because he walked with 'haelohim'...'all the Gods'.

Your Tanak states that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were all found righteous because they walked with 'haelohim'...'all the Gods'.


Looks like you're the odd one out...
And Abraham said, "The Gods caused me to wander."

Elia
May 4th, 2013, 02:06 PM
And Abraham said, "The Gods caused me to wander."

Bs'd

And Moses said:



שמע ישראל י-ה-ו-ה אלהנו י-ה-ו-ה אחד

Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE.

And you shall love Y-H-W-H your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.
And these words which I command you this day shall be upon your heart;
and you shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise.
And you shall bind them as a sign upon your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.
And you shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.
Deut 6:4-9

Y-H-W-H, the one and only God who is one.

Beside Him there is no God, no Buddha, no JC, no David Koresh; NOBODY.

Whoever worships anything or anybody else than Y-H-W-H is an IDOL WORSHIPER.


And the Bible teaches:

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"Listen, Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is One" Holman Christian Standard Bible

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." English Standard Version

"Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!" New American Standard Bible

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." New International Version

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!" New King James Version"



"And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, "Which commandment is the first of all?" Jesus answered, "The first is, `Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, THE LORD IS ONE; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' The second is this, `You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." And the scribe said to him, "You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that HE IS ONE, and there is no other but he; and to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices." And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God."" Mark 12:28-34 Revised Standard Version

“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one." .... "You are right in saying that God is one" New International Version

"Here is the most important one. Moses said, 'Israel, listen to me. The Lord is our God. The Lord is one." .... "You are right in saying that God is one." New International Readers Version

"Jesus answered: Listen, Israel! The Lord our God, The Lord is One." .... "You have correctly said that He is One," Holman Christian Standard Bible

"Jesus answered, The first is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God, the Lord is one:" .... "thou hast well said that he is one;" American Standard Version

"Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one." New King James Version

"Jesus answered, "The most important is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one" .... "You have truly said that he is one," English Standard Version

"Jesus said, "The first in importance is, 'Listen, Israel: The Lord your God is one;" .... "A wonderful answer, Teacher! So lucid and accurate—that God is one" The Message

"‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one." .... “You are right in saying that God is one" New International Version



"Now an intermediary implies more than one; but GOD IS ONE." Gal 3:20 Revised Standard Version

"Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but GOD IS ONE" King James Version

"A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but GOD IS ONE." New International Version

"Now an intermediary implies more than one, but GOD IS ONE." English Standard Version

"Now a mediator is not a mediator of one; but GOD IS ONE." American Standard Version

"and the mediator is not of one, and GOD IS ONE" Youngs Literal Translation



"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." James 2:19 Revised Standard Version

"thou -- thou dost believe that GOD IS ONE; thou dost well," Youngs Literal translation

"Thou believest that GOD IS ONE; thou doest well:" American Standard Version

"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." Holman Christian Standard Bible.

"*Thou* believest that GOD IS ONE. Thou doest well." Darby Translation.

"It’s good that you believe that GOD IS ONE." Common English Bible

"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." English Standard Version

"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." Amplified Bible

"You believe that GOD IS ONE You do well;" New American Standard Bible


So the Bible teaches clearly that God is ONE.



"And J-e-h-o-v-a-h shall be King over all the earth: in that day shall J-e-h-o-v-a-h be one, and his name one." Zach 14:9 American Standard Version

"And the LORD shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be— “The LORD is one, And His name one." New King James Version

"And the LORD will be king over all the earth. On that day the LORD will be one and his name one." English Standard Version

"And the Lord shall be King over all the earth; in that day the Lord shall be one [in the recognition and worship of men] and His name one." Amplified Bible


Isn't it written somewhere: "By the fruits you will know the tree"?

The Catholics who pretend that their religion is the right religion, are in denial of the fact that they are worshiping statues.

The Catholics who pretend that their religion is the right religion, are in denial of the fact that their clergy are child rapists, the result of the Catholic celibate.

The Catholics who pretend that their religion is the right religion, are in denial of the fact that JC didn't fulfill the messianic prophecies.

The Catholics who pretend that their religion is the right religion, are in denial of the fact that the Bible teaches that God is one, and not three, and not a trinity.

The Catholics who pretend that their religion is the right religion, are in denial of the fact that they threw overboard the law of God and replaced it with paganism.

The Catholics who pretend that their religion is the right religion, are in denial of the fact that a God the Father and a god the son is TWO (2) gods.


Amen and HalleluJah!


Run from it! :dog:

Apple7
May 4th, 2013, 08:58 PM
And Abraham said, "The Gods caused me to wander."

:up:

Elia
May 4th, 2013, 09:26 PM
And Abraham said, "The Gods caused me to wander."

Bs'd

The word "elohiem" means "powers".

Because of the fact that God is the source of all powers, the word elohiem is used in the sense of the English word "God", but it is also used for judges, mighty men, leaders, and more.

Moses is called an elohiem in Ex 4:16 and Ex 7:1.

When Abraham said "the elohiem" caused me to wander", he was saying: The powers caused me to wander".

What he did not say, was the God was a plural, because He isn't.

The whole Bible teaches that GOD IS ONE.

It is only the statue worshiping RC church who came with the extra-Biblical claim that God is trinity,

But: The trinity is an idolatrous concept, taken from pagan religions much older than Christianity, and it is NOWHERE to be found in the Bible.
It is a desparate attempt to turn two gods; God the Father and the Christian god the son, into one God, because the Bible teaches that there is only one God. The trinity says 1 + 1 + 1 = 1. It claims there is one God, made up of three persons.
It is illogical, extra-Biblical, and flies right in the face of the BIBLICAL teaching that God is one.

On top of that, the RC church is a totally unreliable child raping institution:

The Catholics who pretend that their religion is the right religion, are in denial of the fact that they are worshiping statues.

The Catholics who pretend that their religion is the right religion, are in denial of the fact that their clergy are child rapists, the result of the Catholic celibate.

The Catholics who pretend that their religion is the right religion, are in denial of the fact that JC didn't fulfill the messianic prophecies.

The Catholics who pretend that their religion is the right religion, are in denial of the fact that the Bible teaches that God is one, and not three, and not a trinity.

The Catholics who pretend that their religion is the right religion, are in denial of the fact that they threw overboard the law of God and replaced it with paganism.

The Catholics who pretend that their religion is the right religion, are in denial of the fact that a God the Father and a god the son is TWO (2) gods.


Amen and HalleluJah!


Run from it![/color][/font][/size] :dog:



Eliyahu, light unto the nations

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

Apple7
May 5th, 2013, 12:56 PM
When Abraham said "the elohiem" caused me to wander", he was saying: The powers caused me to wander".




What 'powers'...?

You're stumbling again...

Elia
May 5th, 2013, 02:20 PM
[QUOTE=Apple7;3444114]What 'powers'...?

Bs'd

The powers coming from God.


Definition of the trinity:

The trinity is an idolatrous concept, taken from pagan religions much older than Christianity, and it is NOWHERE to be found in the Bible.
It is a desparate attempt to turn two gods; God the Father and the Christian god the son, into one God, because the Bible teaches that there is only one God. The trinity says 1 + 1 + 1 = 1. It claims there is one God, made up of three persons.
It is illogical, extra-Biblical, and flies right in the face of the BIBLICAL teaching that God is one.



You are however in denial about your idolatry:

The Catholics who pretend that their religion is the right religion, are in denial of the fact that they are worshiping statues.

The Catholics who pretend that their religion is the right religion, are in denial of the fact that their clergy are child rapists, the result of the Catholic celibate.

The Catholics who pretend that their religion is the right religion, are in denial of the fact that JC didn't fulfill the messianic prophecies.

The Catholics who pretend that their religion is the right religion, are in denial of the fact that the Bible teaches that God is one, and not three, and not a trinity.

The Catholics who pretend that their religion is the right religion, are in denial of the fact that they threw overboard the law of God and replaced it with paganism.

The Catholics who pretend that their religion is the right religion, are in denial of the fact that a God the Father and a god the son is TWO (2) gods.


Amen and HalleluJah!


Run from it! :dog:




Eliyahu, light unto the nations

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

Mulla Sadra
May 5th, 2013, 03:09 PM
it is simple

1 = 1
1 + 1 =2
1 + 1 + 1 =3

and there's nothing as such as 1 + 1 + 1 =1

Common sense they call it..

Apple7
May 5th, 2013, 03:26 PM
The powers coming from God.



Again...what powers?

Apple7
May 5th, 2013, 03:27 PM
it is simple

1 = 1
1 + 1 =2
1 + 1 + 1 =3

and there's nothing as such as 1 + 1 + 1 =1

Common sense they call it..


How about this...

1x1x1 = 1


Even the authors of the Koran tell us that God is not the result of counted things....but He is still Triune.

You should believe them...

Wile E. Coyote
May 5th, 2013, 03:29 PM
it is simple

1 = 1
1 + 1 =2
1 + 1 + 1 =3

and there's nothing as such as 1 + 1 + 1 =1

Common sense they call it..1 father + 1 mother + 1 child = 1 family.

Common sense they call it.

Mulla Sadra
May 5th, 2013, 04:37 PM
1 father + 1 mother + 1 child = 1 family.

Common sense they call it.

That's even worse !

it means God is made up of Parts, which means he needs a reason to be.

Mulla Sadra
May 5th, 2013, 04:38 PM
How about this...

1x1x1 = 1


Even the authors of the Koran tell us that God is not the result of counted things....but He is still Triune.

You should believe them...

God is One, that is what GOD says in Quran.

One who's not parted, and doesn't have a son.

Apple7
May 5th, 2013, 04:55 PM
God is One, that is what GOD says in Quran.

One who's not parted, and doesn't have a son.



Creation ex-nihilo by the Son



بديع السموت والأرض أنى يكون له ولد ولم تكن
له صحبة وخلق كل شيء وهو بكل شيء عليم

BadeeAAu alssamawati waal-ardi anna yakoonu lahu waladun walam takun lahu sahibatun wakhalaqa kulla shay-in wahuwa bikulli shay-in AAaleemun

6.101 Originator (of) the heavens and the earth, that He has certainly been his Son, and certainly not to be his companion, and He created every thing that He will, and He on account of every thing that he will who knows.

Just as in other Koranic creation ex-nihilo ayahs, the Son, Jesus Christ, is mentioned as being present at the origin of the Universe, confirming that He is God Almighty.

Further, the distinction of Jesus’ deity is confirmed by distancing Himself from just being a “companion” (sahibatun).

Wile E. Coyote
May 5th, 2013, 05:12 PM
Run from it! :dog:
See my new thread "Elia's theology is falling apart at the seams." You have betrayed your own faith in saying that angels create. If they create, then they are gods.

You are digging a deep hole for yourself.

http://i949.photobucket.com/albums/ad339/scoopshovel/gifs/diggingahole.gif (http://media.photobucket.com/user/scoopshovel/media/gifs/diggingahole.gif.html)

Mulla Sadra
May 5th, 2013, 05:18 PM
Creation ex-nihilo by the Son



بديع السموت والأرض أنى يكون له ولد ولم تكن
له صحبة وخلق كل شيء وهو بكل شيء عليم

BadeeAAu alssamawati waal-ardi anna yakoonu lahu waladun walam takun lahu sahibatun wakhalaqa kulla shay-in wahuwa bikulli shay-in AAaleemun

6.101 Originator (of) the heavens and the earth, that He has certainly been his Son, and certainly not to be his companion, and He created every thing that He will, and He on account of every thing that he will who knows.

Just as in other Koranic creation ex-nihilo ayahs, the Son, Jesus Christ, is mentioned as being present at the origin of the Universe, confirming that He is God Almighty.

Further, the distinction of Jesus’ deity is confirmed by distancing Himself from just being a “companion” (sahibatun).

From what world did you get the translation, the right translation is here :

http://quran.com/6/101


أنى

Means "How!" in the form of amazement. We always use it in Arabic.

And

صاحبة

Is a female (companion), was Jesus a female ?


The male (companion) is the word صاحب.

From where did you get the translation !

Mulla Sadra
May 5th, 2013, 05:19 PM
See my new thread "Elia's theology is falling apart at the seams." You have betrayed your own faith in saying that angels create. If they create, then they are gods.

You are digging a deep hole for yourself.

http://i949.photobucket.com/albums/ad339/scoopshovel/gifs/diggingahole.gif (http://media.photobucket.com/user/scoopshovel/media/gifs/diggingahole.gif.html)

He said that..

Do you people really believe in God :/

Wile E. Coyote
May 5th, 2013, 05:50 PM
He said that..

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91997

Apple7
May 5th, 2013, 09:01 PM
From what world did you get the translation, the right translation is here :

http://quran.com/6/101

From where did you get the translation !


The translation and exegesis are mine.







أنى

Means "How!" in the form of amazement. We always use it in Arabic.


‘Anna’ is an interjection, agreed.




And

صاحبة

Is a female (companion), was Jesus a female ?


The male (companion) is the word صاحب.


That the word is feminine does not mean that it refers to a female....even your googled rendering never says female!

Come on...


Let’s first backtrack and review a few ayat, from your book of faith, which proclaim that the Universe was created brand new, for the first time, out of nothing (i.e. as first recorded in the Holy Bible and then later copied into the Koranic opus).

It is beyond any reasonable doubt that 6.101 proclaims that Jesus Christ created the Universe.


Let’s see why this is true by simply looking no further than the first word…


بديع السموت والأرض أنى يكون له ولد ولم تكن
له صحبة وخلق كل شيء وهو بكل شيء عليم

BadeeAAu alssamawati waal-ardi anna yakoonu lahu waladun walam takun lahu sahibatun wakhalaqa kulla shay-in wahuwa bikulli shay-in AAaleemun

6.101 Originator (of) the heavens and the earth, that He has certainly been his Son, and certainly not to be his companion, and He created every thing that He will, and He with every thing that he will, who knows.


Defining the word…


بديع = “badeeAAu”

“badeeAAu” definition:

Active 2nd participle. Originated; invented; innovated; made done, produced, caused to be or exist, or brought into existence, newly, for the first time not having been or existed before, and not after the similitude of anything pre-existing; new; wonderful; unknown before. An originator, inventor, or innovator; one who makes, does, or produces, causes to be or exist, or brings into existence, newly, for the first time and not after the similitude of anything pre-existing. Wonderful originator, without depending upon any matter or pattern or help; wonderful thing; thing which is not after the similitude of anything pre-existing. A novelty; or thing existing for the first time; a first doer; as though meaning one who has none among his fellows to share, or participate, with him in a thing, or an affair. Such a one is the first doer in this affair; the first who has done it. Applied to a man, superlative in his kind in anything; in good and in evil; or in knowledge, or courage, or nobility. A man liberal in disposition. A full body.

It comes from the root “bada’a” (ba-dal-ayn), which means to produce something new, begin a thing, find out a new thing; create a thing. He became superlative in his kind; or it became so in its kind; in good or in evil; he was, or became, fat.

References:
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume one, pp. 166 - 167
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar p. 44
Concordance of the Koran, Gustav Flugel, p. 27


From the classic definition alone, we understand that the entire physical Universe was brought into being ex-nihilo (i.e. out of nothing – same as taught in the Holy Bible).

The classic definition also goes on to inform us that it applies to a man.

Thus, right from the very start, we have the premise that the Universe came into being – perhaps via a man.


So…


Where else is the word “badeeAAu” used in the Koran…?

It is used in only one other location….2.117

Here it is in context…



وقالوا اتخذ الله ولدا سبحنه بل له ما في السموت
والأرض كل له قنتون

Waqaloo itakhatha Allahu waladan subhanahu bal lahu ma fee alssamawati waal-ardi kullun lahu qanitoona

2.116 And they said: " “allah” he has taken (a) Son, glory be to Him, much more certainly His, that which (is) in the heavens and the earth, all are certainly obedient unto Him.”


(Hence…yet another Koranic confirmation to Jesus’ being the Son).



Next…

بديع السموت والأرض وإذا قضى أمرا فإنما
يقول له كن فيكون

BadeeAAu alssamawati waal-ardi wa-itha qada amran fa-innama yaqoolu lahu kun fayakoonu

2.117 Originator (of) the heavens and the earth and when commanded entirely by (the) Word, so only certainly Him, He says: "Be thou." so (it) is.



As amazing as it is, both of these Koranic ex-nihilo ayahs have the Son as the subject matter!!!

Should we be surprised…?


Fact is that the Son is fully acknowledged, and He is given His rightful position as the Creator of the Universe, as per the Holy Bible.

2.117 even goes so far as to specifically inform us that the Son is the Word through which the Universe came into being!

Further, the root “bada’a” and its three derivatives (which includes “badeeAAu”) all pertain to Jesus Christ in the Koran. Each and every single solitary time.

• 2.117
• 6.101
• 46.9
• 57.27

Thus, we can be completely confident that the authors who penned these ayahs understood the Biblical Jesus.



Compare the above ayahs to their source…


John 1

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men; and the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overtake it. There was a man sent from God; his name was John. He came for a witness, that he might witness concerning the light, that all might believe through Him. He was not that light, but that he might witness concerning the light. He was the true light; He enlightens every man coming into the world. He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, yet the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave authority to become children of God, to the ones believing into His name, who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but were born of God. And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us. And we beheld His glory, glory as of an only begotten from the Father, full of grace and of truth. John witnesses concerning Him, and has cried out, saying, This One was He of whom I said, He coming after me has been before me, for He was preceding me. And out of His fullness we all received, and grace on top of grace. For the Law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, that One declares Him.




Once again, the authors of the Koran are merely paraphrasing Biblical material into their opus…



Now you can see for yourself just how the authors of your book of faith wholesale copied their material from the Holy Bible.

Elia
May 5th, 2013, 09:19 PM
How about this...

1x1x1 = 1

Bs'd

So you think that if you want to count all of your gods, then you can say 1 x 1 x 1 = 1.

Well, we all make mistakes in life. Happens to the best of us. Not everybody is comfortable with higher mathematics.
But I'll explain this to you.

When you have three pieces of fruit, and every one of them is an apple, than you have 1 apple + 1 apple + 1apple = 3 apples.

Then you do not have 1 apple x 1 apple x 1 apple = 1 apple, but then you really have THREE apples.

Evenso with gods.

When you have three persons who are all divine, then you have 1 god + 1 god + 1 god = 3 gods.

Then you do not have 1 god x 1 god x 1 god = 1 god, but then you really have THREE gods.

Got it?


Even the authors of the Koran tell us that God is not the result of counted things....but He is still Triune.

There is no "triune God" to be found in the Bible. It's a lie, invented by the church, in order to turn two gods into one.

The whole Bible teaches that God is ONE:



שמע ישראל י-ה-ו-ה אלהנו י-ה-ו-ה אחד

Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE.

And you shall love Y-H-W-H your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.
And these words which I command you this day shall be upon your heart;
and you shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise.
And you shall bind them as a sign upon your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.
And you shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.
Deut 6:4-9

Y-H-W-H, the one and only God who is one.

Beside Him there is no God, no Buddha, no JC, no David Koresh; NOBODY.

Whoever worships anything or anybody else than Y-H-W-H is an IDOL WORSHIPER.


Definition of the trinity:

The trinity is an idolatrous concept, taken from pagan religions much older than Christianity, and it is NOWHERE to be found in the Bible.
It is a desparate attempt to turn two gods; God the Father and the Christian god the son, into one God, because the Bible teaches that there is only one God. The trinity says 1 + 1 + 1 = 1. It claims there is one God, made up of three persons.
It is illogical, extra-Biblical, and flies right in the face of the BIBLICAL teaching that God is one.



You are however in denial about your idolatry:

The Catholics who pretend that their religion is the right religion, are in denial of the fact that they are worshiping statues.

The Catholics who pretend that their religion is the right religion, are in denial of the fact that their clergy are child rapists, the result of the Catholic celibate.

The Catholics who pretend that their religion is the right religion, are in denial of the fact that JC didn't fulfill the messianic prophecies.

The Catholics who pretend that their religion is the right religion, are in denial of the fact that the Bible teaches that God is one, and not three, and not a trinity.

The Catholics who pretend that their religion is the right religion, are in denial of the fact that they threw overboard the law of God and replaced it with paganism.

The Catholics who pretend that their religion is the right religion, are in denial of the fact that a God the Father and a god the son is TWO (2) gods.


Amen and HalleluJah!


Run from it! :dog:




Eliyahu, light unto the nations

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

Elia
May 5th, 2013, 09:20 PM
[COLOR="Black"][SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]Again...what powers?

Bs'd

The powers of God.

Apple7
May 5th, 2013, 09:27 PM
Bs'd

So you think that if you want to count all of your gods, then you can say 1 x 1 x 1 = 1.

Well, we all make mistakes in life. Happens to the best of us. Not everybody is comfortable with higher mathematics.
But I'll explain this to you.

When you have three pieces of fruit, and every one of them is an apple, than you have 1 apple + 1 apple + 1apple = 3 apples.

Then you do not have 1 apple x 1 apple x 1 apple = 1 apple, but then you really have THREE apples.

Evenso with gods.

When you have three persons who are all divine, then you have 1 god + 1 god + 1 god = 3 gods.

Then you do not have 1 god x 1 god x 1 god = 1 god, but then you really have THREE gods.

Got it?


What are the names of my THREE Gods, then?

Apple7
May 5th, 2013, 09:28 PM
Bs'd

The powers of God.


Could you be a little more vague...?

Elia
May 5th, 2013, 09:35 PM
What are the names of my THREE Gods, then?

Bs'd

The names of the Christian panteon are "the Father", "the son", and the "holy ghost".

So the Christians are polytheist, and with that IDOL WORSHIPERS.

They try to hide that fact by saying 1 + 1 + 1 = 1, the so called "trinity concept".

But: This is the definition of the trinity:

The trinity is an idolatrous concept, taken from pagan religions much older than Christianity, and it is NOWHERE to be found in the Bible.
It is a desparate attempt to turn two gods; God the Father and the Christian god the son, into one God, because the Bible teaches that there is only one God. The trinity says 1 + 1 + 1 = 1. It claims there is one God, made up of three persons.
It is illogical, extra-Biblical, and flies right in the face of the BIBLICAL teaching that God is one.



You are however in denial about your idolatry:

The Catholics who pretend that their religion is the right religion, are in denial of the fact that they are worshiping statues.

The Catholics who pretend that their religion is the right religion, are in denial of the fact that their clergy are child rapists, the result of the Catholic celibate.

The Catholics who pretend that their religion is the right religion, are in denial of the fact that JC didn't fulfill the messianic prophecies.

The Catholics who pretend that their religion is the right religion, are in denial of the fact that the Bible teaches that God is one, and not three, and not a trinity.

The Catholics who pretend that their religion is the right religion, are in denial of the fact that they threw overboard the law of God and replaced it with paganism.

The Catholics who pretend that their religion is the right religion, are in denial of the fact that a God the Father and a god the son is TWO (2) gods.


Amen and HalleluJah!


Run from it! :dog:




Eliyahu, light unto the nations

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

Apple7
May 5th, 2013, 09:42 PM
The names of the Christian panteon are "the Father", "the son", and the "holy ghost".


Nope.

Scripture tells us that they have ONE name, as thus...

πορευθεντες ουν μαθητευσατε παντα τα εθνη βαπτιζοντες αυτους εις το ονομα του πατρος και του υιου και του αγιου πνευματος

Try.

Again.

Elia
May 5th, 2013, 09:54 PM
Nope.

Scripture tells us that they have ONE name, as thus...

πορευθεντες ουν μαθητευσατε παντα τα εθνη βαπτιζοντες αυτους εις το ονομα του πατρος και του υιου και του αγιου πνευματος

Try.

Again.


Bs'd

Forget about the Christian lies.

There is only ONE God, and besides Him there is no god:

Who is the God of Israel? The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?

Christianity is very confused about this. A confusion also caused by bad Bible translations. In almost all translations the four lettered name of God, Y-H-W-H, which appears in the Hebrew Bible almost 7000 times, is not mentioned, but replaced by "the LORD".

But here are some Biblical texts which point out WHO is the God of Israel. In these verses the letters of the name of God are written, like in the original Hebrew.


Exodus 29:46 “They will know that I am Y-H-W-H their God, who brought them out of Egypt so that I might dwell among them. I am Y-H-W-H their God.”

Numbers 15:41 “I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of Egypt to be your God. I am Y-H-W-H your God.”

Deuteronomy 10:20-21 “Fear Y-H-W-H your God and serve him. Hold fast to him and take your oaths in his name. He is your praise; he is your God, who performed for you those great and awesome wonders you saw with your own eyes.”

Joshua 24:18 “We too will serve Y-H-W-H , because he is our God.”

II Samuel 22:32 “For who is God besides Y-H-W-H ?”

I Chronicles 16:14 “He is Y-H-W-H our God; his judgments are in all the earth”

II Chronicles 13:10 “As for us, Y-H-W-H is our God, and we have not forsaken him”

Psalm 31:14 “But I trust in you, O Y-H-W-H; I say, "You are my God.”

Psalm 89:6 “For who in the skies above can compare with Y-H-W-H? Who is like Y-H-W-H among the heavenly beings?”

Psalm 91:2 “I will say of Y-H-W-H , "He is my refuge and my fortress, my God, in whom I trust.”

Psalm 100:3 “Know that Y-H-W-H is God. It is he who made us.”

Psalm 105:7 “He is Y-H-W-H our God; his judgments are in all the earth;”

Psalm 118:27 “Y-H-W-H is God, and he has made his light shine upon us.”

Psalm 140:6 “O Y-H-W-H, I say to you, "You are my God”

Isaiah 25:1 “O Y-H-W-H, you are my God.”

Isaiah 41:13 “For I am Y-H-W-H , your God;”

Isaiah 43:3 “For I am Y-H-W-H , your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior;”

Isaiah 51:15 “For I am Y-H-W-H your God, who churns up the sea so that its waves roar- Y-H-W-H Almighty is his name”

Jeremiah 3:22-23 “Yes, we will come to you, for you are Y-H-W-H our God”

Jeremiah 10:10 “But Y-H-W-H is the true God; he is the living God, the eternal King.;”

Jeremiah 31:18 “Restore me, and I will return, because you are Y-H-W-H my God.”

Habakkuk 1:12 “O Y-H-W-H, are you not from everlasting? My God, my Holy One, we will not die.”



And is there, except for this God Y-H-W-H, any other god?



Deuteronomy 4:35 “You were shown these things so that you might know that Y-H-W-H is God; besides him there is no other.”

Deuteronomy 4:39 “Acknowledge and take to heart this day that Y-H-W-H is God in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other.”

II Samuel 7:22 “How great you are, O Sovereign Y-H-W-H! There is no one like you, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.”

I Kings 8:60 “so that all the peoples of the earth may know that Y-H-W-H is God and that there is no other.”

I Chronicles 17:20 “There is no one like you, O Y-H-W-H, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.”

II Chronicles 6:14 “O Y-H-W-H, God of Israel, there is no God like you in heaven or on earth.”

Nehemiah 9:6 “You alone are Y-H-W-H.”

Isaiah 45:21-23 “You are my witnesses," declares Y-H-W-H, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me."

Isaiah 44:6 “This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.”

Isaiah 45:5-6 “I am Y-H-W-H , and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me, so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides me."

Isaiah 45:21-23 “Declare what is to be, present it- let them take counsel together. Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past? Was it not I, Y-H-W-H? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me. Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.”

Joel 2:27 “Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am Y-H-W-H your God, and that there is no other;”



Exodus 20:1-3 “And God spoke all these words: "I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME.”



Eliyahu, light unto the nations

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

Apple7
May 5th, 2013, 09:56 PM
Keep spaming those Trinitarian scriptures...love it!

Elia
May 5th, 2013, 10:02 PM
Keep spaming those Trinitarian scriptures...love it!

Bs'd

My pleasure:

The trinity is an idolatrous concept, taken from pagan religions much older than Christianity, and it is NOWHERE to be found in the Bible.
It is a desparate attempt to turn two gods; God the Father and the Christian god the son, into one God, because the Bible teaches that there is only one God. The trinity says 1 + 1 + 1 = 1. It claims there is one God, made up of three persons.
It is illogical, extra-Biblical, and flies right in the face of the BIBLICAL teaching that God is one.



You are in denial about your idolatry:

The Catholics who pretend that their religion is the right religion, are in denial of the fact that they are worshiping statues.

The Catholics who pretend that their religion is the right religion, are in denial of the fact that their clergy are child rapists, the result of the Catholic celibate.

The Catholics who pretend that their religion is the right religion, are in denial of the fact that JC didn't fulfill the messianic prophecies.

The Catholics who pretend that their religion is the right religion, are in denial of the fact that the Bible teaches that God is one, and not three, and not a trinity.

The Catholics who pretend that their religion is the right religion, are in denial of the fact that they threw overboard the law of God and replaced it with paganism.

The Catholics who pretend that their religion is the right religion, are in denial of the fact that a God the Father and a god the son is TWO (2) gods.


Amen and HalleluJah!


Run from it! :dog:




שמע ישראל י-ה-ו-ה אלהנו י-ה-ו-ה אחד

Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE.

And you shall love Y-H-W-H your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.
And these words which I command you this day shall be upon your heart;
and you shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise.
And you shall bind them as a sign upon your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.
And you shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.
Deut 6:4-9

Y-H-W-H, the one and only God who is one.

Beside Him there is no God, no Buddha, no JC, no David Koresh; NOBODY.

Whoever worships anything or anybody else than Y-H-W-H is an IDOL WORSHIPER.



Eliyahu, light unto the nations

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

ttruscott
May 5th, 2013, 10:23 PM
Listen all you elect of the church of the Living GOD, The Lord your GODS, the LORD is a Unity!

Peace, Ted

Elia
May 5th, 2013, 11:59 PM
Listen all you elect of the church of the Living GOD, The Lord your GODS, the LORD is a Unity!

Peace, Ted

Bs'd

Why are you peddling these lies??



שמע ישראל י-ה-ו-ה אלהנו י-ה-ו-ה אחד

Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE.

And you shall love Y-H-W-H your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.
And these words which I command you this day shall be upon your heart;
and you shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise.
And you shall bind them as a sign upon your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.
And you shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.
Deut 6:4-9

Y-H-W-H, the one and only God who is one.

Beside Him there is no God, no Buddha, no JC, no David Koresh; NOBODY.

Whoever worships anything or anybody else than Y-H-W-H is an IDOL WORSHIPER.


"Woe to those who call evil good and good evil,
who put darkness for light and light for darkness,
who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter."
Isaiah 5:20

Woe to those who call three one, and one three!



Eliyahu, light unto the nations

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

ttruscott
May 6th, 2013, 03:02 PM
Bs'd

[size=3][color=black]Why are you peddling these lies??

...


Bs'd to you too.

I peddle because I believe. If two can be one, why not three?

Genesis 2:24 That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh.

ONE: Strong's H259 - 'echad

Outline of Biblical Usage
1) one (number)
a) one (number)
b) each, every
c) a certain
d) an (indefinite article)
e) only, once, once for all
f) one...another, the one...the other, one after another, one by one
g) first
h) eleven (in combination), eleventh (ordinal)

Two counted as / becoming ONE. Does the man disappear? Does the woman disappear? Nope, still two people in two bodies but only one flesh.

And for those who want to see the oneness of these two bodies being in the child they produce: 1 Corinthians 6:16 Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh."

Peace, Ted

Elia
May 6th, 2013, 05:22 PM
Bs'd to you too.

I peddle because I believe. If two can be one, why not three?

Bs'd

Judging by your level of math, I have to conclude you are an elementary school drop-out.

Let me clarify this for you: One is one, and two is two.

Two is not one, and one is not two.

Boy, it is not only that Christians cannot count to two, but they don't even know the difference between one and two. :confused:

And then they say that the Jews are blinded???


[quote]Genesis 2:24 That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh.

ONE: Strong's H259 - 'echad

Outline of Biblical Usage
1) one (number)
a) one (number)
b) each, every
c) a certain
d) an (indefinite article)
e) only, once, once for all
f) one...another, the one...the other, one after another, one by one
g) first
h) eleven (in combination), eleventh (ordinal)

Two counted as / becoming ONE. Does the man disappear? Does the woman disappear? Nope, still two people in two bodies but only one flesh.

And for those who want to see the oneness of these two bodies being in the child they produce: 1 Corinthians 6:16 Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh."

Peace, Ted

"And they shall be one flesh" ..... In the Hebrew: "wehayu levasar echad" ..... This text is claimed by Christianity to prove that the word 'echad' can point to, or be, a 'composite unity', one being made up of more than one.

'Echad', one, can point to a composite unity. Of course. One can also point to a million: One million houses. Here one points to a million, but one is still one. We have here one million, and not a million millions. The fact that one points to something else does not change the meaning of one. One is one, and one stays one.

The claim that 'echad', one, can be a composite unity, with as proof the above verse, is simply wrong. In the above verse the flesh, made up of two people, is the composite unity, and not the 'echad', the one. Compare this to the following: One group of people. Here the group is the composite unity, and not the word one. We don't have here a composite unity of composite unities, but we have here one composite unity (the group of people). One is one and one stays one.

And last but not least; what Christianity does here, is comparing apples to steaks. The verse 'they will be one flesh' cannot be compared to 'God is one'. In the first verse the one is a number, telling us that there will be only one flesh. But in the second verse the one is not a number telling us that there is one God, here the one is an adjective, telling us that God IS one. (and not three) Here the one describes the essence of God, it doesn't give us the amount of Gods. Therefore you can not draw a conclusion from the first verse and apply it to the other.

And of course, Christianity must not forget that they not only have the battle with the Hebrew word 'echad', but also with the Greek word 'eis', also meaning one. In Mark 12:28-34 Jesus has a discussion with a scribe. The scribe asks Jesus what is the first (that is here 'most important', not first in order, because many commandments were given earlier) commandment, and Jesus answers: "Hear Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is one." Here Jesus quotes Deuteronomy 6:4. That is in the Greek: 'Kurios' (Lord) 'eis' (one) 'estin' (is). When he said this to the scribe the scribe answers him: "You are right teacher; you have truly said that he is one (eis), and there is no other then he." Upon this answers Jesus: "You are not far from the kingdom of God." So basically everybody agrees that God is one, except for the Christians. Therefore; the Christians must not only twist, deform, and corrupt the meaning of 'echad', meaning one, into three, but also the Greek word 'eis'. The question is of course: How often can you pull stunts like that, and still have some credibility left?



For Christianity it is literally a matter of life and death to obscure the fact that God is one, because when God is one, then He is not three, and then the trinity goes out the window and the Christians are exposed as the idol worshippers they are. Therefore also here many Bible translations are corrupted. This is the answer of the scribe to Jesus: “You have truly said that he is one, and there is no other then he." The scribe says: “HE IS ONE”. He does not say that there is one God, he says: “He (referring to God) IS ONE, and there is no other then he.” Take good notice that the scribe does not use the word “God”, the scribe refers to God with the word “He”. The word “God” does not appear in the answer of the scribe. But look now at some translations:

All versions of the King James: And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: (why else “King James ONLY!)

Youngs literal translation: And the scribe said to him, `Well, Teacher, in truth thou hast spoken that there is one God, and there is none other but He; Youngs literal translation is not so literal here…

Worldwide English: And the scribe said to him, `Well, Teacher, in truth thou hast spoken that there is one God, and there is none other but He;

Gone is the fact that God is one, replaced by the fact that there is one God. Christianity can live with one God. One God who is three that is: God the Father, god the son, and god the holy ghost.

Christianity can’t live with one God who is one, like the Bible teaches. Therefore the translations are corrupted, in order to cover up the fact that God is one.

But honour to whom honour is due, there are modern day Christian translations who translate this in the right way:

New International Version: "Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him.” The word “God” should have been “He”, but the message is correct.

New American Standard Bible: The scribe said to Him, ""Right, Teacher; You have truly stated that he is one, and there is no one else beside him.

Revised Standard Version: And the scribe said to him, "You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that he is one, and there is no other but he;

Darby translation: And the scribe said to him, Right, teacher; thou hast spoken according to [the] truth. For he is one, and there is none other besides him;




שמע ישראל י-ה-ו-ה אלהנו י-ה-ו-ה אחד

Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE.

And you shall love Y-H-W-H your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.
And these words which I command you this day shall be upon your heart;
and you shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise.
And you shall bind them as a sign upon your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.
And you shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.
Deut 6:4-9

Y-H-W-H, the one and only God who is one.

Beside Him there is no God, no Buddha, no JC, no David Koresh; NOBODY.

Whoever worships anything or anybody else than Y-H-W-H is an IDOL WORSHIPER.


"Woe to those who call evil good and good evil,
who put darkness for light and light for darkness,
who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter."
Isaiah 5:20

Woe to those who call three one, and one three!



Eliyahu, light unto the nations

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

Apple7
May 6th, 2013, 08:59 PM
Bs'd

Judging by your level of math, I have to conclude you are an elementary school drop-out.




Now that's just not very good manners....

Elia
May 6th, 2013, 09:29 PM
Now that's just not very good manners....

Bs'd

Saying one is equal to two is one step worse from the Christian rule that 1 + 1 = 1.

Apple7
May 7th, 2013, 07:35 AM
Bs'd

Saying one is equal to two is one step worse from the Christian rule that 1 + 1 = 1.

Another Jew who rejects his Tanak.

Mulla Sadra
May 7th, 2013, 03:48 PM
Okay, You are seriously debating an Arab about a word if it means female or male ?

SERIOUSLY ? It's this bad people's debate is getting here ?!

بَدِيعُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ ۖ أَنَّىٰ يَكُونُ لَهُ وَلَدٌ وَلَمْ تَكُن لَّهُ صَاحِبَةٌ ۖ وَخَلَقَ كُلَّ شَيْءٍ ۖ وَهُوَ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمٌ

بديع
Originator

السماوات و الأرض
Heaven and Earth

أنى يكون له ولد ولم تكن له صاحبة
How can he have a child and he never had a (female) companion
(Plus, the واو in between the two verse, grammatically, means both are Negations)

وخلق كل شيء و هو بكل شيء عليم
And he created everything, and being in everything knowing.

I did the translation alone, and I am an Arab and there's not a small evidence for you in it, it says GOD DOESN'T HAVE A SON.

Don't try to manipulate an English translation, Alhammdulilah the Arabic script is quite straight.

And trying to define a word as like (بديع) is just a lousy fallacy to make another meaning for word that means (creator). no more no less.

-------------


The second verse is quite clear, THEY - as in Christians - said NOT Allah, He was NEGATING WHAT THEY (CHRISTIANS) SAID.

They say, " Allah has taken a son." Exalted is He! Rather, to Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and the earth. All are devoutly obedient to Him,
(link) (http://quran.com/2/114-120)


And to bring verses with (بديع) is nothing, zero, because the word means "create" and it came in the same meaning tons of times in Quran and Jesus wasn't anywhere near it.

Anyways the verses you talked about and didn't quote are :

46.9 :

The term used is "بَدعاً" in the meaning that the prophet, just like others would call for the ONE God. (the not flesh and bones one)
This meaning doesn't relate to Creation in anyway whatsoever.

Say, "I am not something original among the messengers, nor do I know what will be done with me or with you. I only follow that which is revealed to me, and I am not but a clear warner."

Jesus is not anywhere to be seen the context,Moses is mentioned in some verses after it, so he is the new Flesh and Bones God ?

pfft :P

57.27

This verse talks about Jesus, but not just him but also Noah, Abraham and the other prophets before Jesus !
So it's not a feature, as you are trying to imply, neither it is any kind of evidence, because the meaning of creation - as I said - is mentioned hundreds of times, without any mentioning of Jesus.

(Before coming to this Forum, I didn't know there were any human on Earth who think Jesus made the World, And I am quite knowing in Quran, it never talks about such thing).

Also the word doesn't mean creation here, it means lying and how Christians changed in their theology

And We have already sent Noah and Abraham and placed in their descendants prophethood and scripture; and among them is he who is guided, but many of them are defiantly disobedient.Then We sent following their footsteps Our messengers and followed [them] with Jesus, the son of Mary, and gave him the Gospel. And We placed in the hearts of those who followed him compassion and mercy and monasticism, which they innovated; We did not prescribe it for them except [that they did so] seeking the approval of Allah . But they did not observe it with due observance. So We gave the ones who believed among them their reward, but many of them are defiantly disobedient.


Please, You are making big fallacies, it doesn't say what you are saying, I know some Christian Arabs who tried better verses, thats MAY give the meaning IN ARABIC (these verses aren't even near from that), and the good thing that the Priests in the prophet's time tried to use the verses and the prophet's answers were quite decisive.

When we say Messiah we don't mean he died.
When we say Word of Allah, it doesn't mean he's God.
When we say he's a spirit from God, we don't mean he's son of God.


So, Don't even try :)

Apple7
May 7th, 2013, 09:24 PM
Okay, You are seriously debating an Arab about a word if it means female or male ?

SERIOUSLY ? It's this bad people's debate is getting here ?!


As already demonstrated, even your googled rendering never mentions a female.

As for your claim of being an Arab…nope.

We eat Arabs for breakfast…





بَدِيعُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ ۖ أَنَّىٰ يَكُونُ لَهُ وَلَدٌ وَلَمْ تَكُن لَّهُ صَاحِبَةٌ ۖ وَخَلَقَ كُلَّ شَيْءٍ ۖ وَهُوَ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمٌ

بديع
Originator



Don’t be shy about defining the word…


بديع = ‘badeeAA’

‘badeeAA’ definition:

Active 2nd participle. Originated; invented; innovated; made done, produced, caused to be or exist, or brought into existence, newly, for the first time not having been or existed before, and not after the similitude of anything pre-existing; new; wonderful; unknown before. An originator, inventor, or innovator; one who makes, does, or produces, causes to be or exist, or brings into existence, newly, for the first time and not after the similitude of anything pre-existing. Wonderful originator, without depending upon any matter or pattern or help; wonderful thing; thing which is not after the similitude of anything pre-existing. A novelty; or thing existing for the first time; a first doer; as though meaning one who has none among his fellows to share, or participate, with him in a thing, or an affair. Such a one is the first doer in this affair; the first who has done it. Applied to a man, superlative in his kind in anything; in good and in evil; or in knowledge, or courage, or nobility. A man liberal in disposition. A full body.

It comes from the root ‘bada’a’ (ba-dal-ayn), which means to produce something new, begin a thing, find out a new thing; create a thing. He became superlative in his kind; or it became so in its kind; in good or in evil; he was, or became, fat.

References:
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume one, pp. 166 - 167
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar p. 44
Concordance of the Koran, Gustav Flugel, p. 27


Occurrences of ‘badeeAAu’ in the Koran: 2
Locations: 2.117, 6.101

Occurrences of the root ‘bada’a’, and its 3 derivatives in the Koran: 4
Locations: 2.117, 6.101, 46.9, 57.27


As already shown, the only two occurrences of ‘badeeAAu’ have Jesus as the subject.

The other two locations are about Jesus.






السماوات و الأرض
Heaven and Earth

Agreed.






أنى يكون له ولد ولم تكن له صاحبة
How can he have a child and he never had a (female) companion

Examining the words in question…


ولد = ‘waladu’

‘waladun’ definition:

Noun. Singular and plural. A child, son, daughter, youngling, or young one: and children, sons, daughters, offspring, young, or younglings,: of any kind: often applied to an unborn child, etc, a fetus.

It comes from the root “walada”, which means she (a woman, or mother, or any animal having an ear, as distinguished from one having merely an ear-hole) brought forth a child, or young one; or children, young, or offspring; to beget, give birth. He begot a child, or young one, etc.

References:
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume eight, pp. 2966 - 2968
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, pp. 620 - 621
A Dictionary and Glossary of the Koran, John Penrice, p. 162





يكون = ‘yakoonu’

‘yakoonu’ definition:

Imperfect, 3rd person singular. Is.

References:
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume eight, p. 3004
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, pp. 500 -502
Concordance of the Koran, Gustav Flugel, p. 169






ل = ‘la’

‘la’ definition:

A prefixed affirmative particle, verily, surely, certainly, indeed, truly. Prefix: an affirmative intensifying particle, used as a corroborative. A preposition denoting possession. It is also used as a preposition expressing attribution, design. Inseparable adverbial particle.

References:
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar pp. 504 - 505
A Grammar of the Arabic Language, W. Wright, Third edition, volume 1, p. 282
A Dictionary and Glossary of the Koran, John Penrice, p. 129






ه = ‘hu’

‘hu’ definition:

An indeclinable affixed personal or possessive pronoun of third person singular masculine; when affixed to a verb or preposition as a person pronoun, it means him or it; and when to a noun as a possessive, his or it. Singular personal or possessive pronoun. Him. Verbal suffix which expresses the accusative.

References:
A Grammar of the Arabic Language, W. Wright, Third edition, volume 1, p. 100
A Dictionary and Glossary of the Koran, John Penrice, p. 152




Thus…


له = ‘la’ + ‘hu’ = ‘lahu’ = certainly his









(Plus, the واو in between the two verse, grammatically, means both are Negations)

No.

The term that is utilized is ‘walam’ and it is only negating the companion portion.

The Son has already been confirmed as truth.





وخلق كل شيء و هو بكل شيء عليم
And he created everything, and being in everything knowing.

As applied to the Son.

Apple7
May 7th, 2013, 09:34 PM
I did the translation alone, and I am an Arab and there's not a small evidence for you in it, it says GOD DOESN'T HAVE A SON.

There are many ayat in the Koran which proclaim that Jesus is the Son...


Glory be to the Son


ما كان لله أن يتخذ من ولد سبحنه إذا قضى أمرا فإنما يقول له كن فيكون

Ma kana lillahi an yattakhitha min waladin subhanahu itha qada amran fa-innama yaqoolu lahu kun fayakoonu

19.35 That was to “allah” that he takes of a Son, glory be to Him when He issued a decree, commanded, so only truly His, He says: "Be you.” So He has been.


This ayah demonstrates yet another Koranic example of the Son having the ability to create with His powerful word.




The Son brings the End Times


وقالوا اتخذ الرحمن ولدا لقد جئتم شيءا إدا تكاد السموت يتفطرن منه وتنشق الأرض وتخر الجبال هدا أن دعوا للرحمن ولدا وما ينبغي للرحمن أن يتخذ ولدا

Waqaloo ittakhatha alrrahmanu waladan laqad ji/tum shay-an iddan takadu alssamawatu yatafattarna minhu watanshaqqu al-ardu watakhirru aljibalu haddan an daAAaw lilrrahmani waladan Wama yanbaghee lilrrahmani an yattakhitha waladan

And they said: "The most merciful he has taken a Son. Truly You came, a disastrous thing.” The heavens are well nigh (to) burst from Him and the earth she cleaves asunder and then later the mountains fall down into pieces violently with noise. That they called to the most merciful a Son. And that it is convenient to the most merciful that he takes a Son. 19.88 – 92


Contrary to popular Islamic thinking, these ayahs actually proclaim Jesus Christ as the “convenient” Son by first quoting what they said “qaloo”, and then shifting to the singular destruction which Jesus Christ brings during the end times as He opens the Seven seals of Revelation.




Glory be to Him the uncreated Son


لو أراد الله أن يتخذ ولدا لاصطفى مما يخلق ما
يشاء سبحنه هو الله الوحد القهار

Law arada Allahu an yattakhitha waladan laistafa mimma yakhluqu ma yashao subhanahu huwa Allahu alwahidu alqahharu

39.4 Although “allah” he intended that he takes a Son; he has not chosen from that which he creates, (but) what he wills, glory be to Him; he, allah”, the one, the supreme.



39.4 is yet another clear Arabic ayah that boldly proclaims that Jesus is the Son.

In fact, it is stated that “he intended” (“arada” – completed action) that he takes (“yattakhitha”) a Son.

The stipulation being that the Son does not come from anything that is created (“yakhluqu”).

This should sound extremely familiar, as it proclaims that the Son (i.e. Jesus Christ) is uncreated!

A Son that has always existed.


Further, the very next ayah, 39.5, point-blank tells us that the Son is Jesus Christ as thus…


خلق السموت والأرض بالحق يكور اليل على النهار ويكور النهار على اليل وسخر الشمس والقمر كل يجري لأجل مسمى ألا هو العزيز الغفر

Khalaqa alssamawati waal-arda bialhaqqi yukawwiru allayla AAala alnnahari wayukawwiru alnnahara AAala allayli wasakhkhara alshshamsa waalqamara kullun yajree li-ajalin musamman ala huwa alAAazeezu alghaffaru

39.5 He created the heavens and the earth through 'The Truth'. He causes to revolve the night onto the day, and He causes to revolve the day onto the night, and He made subservient the sun and the moon, each pursues its course to a fixed and appointed term, is He not the all-mighty, the most protecting one?


This ayah tells us that “allah” created the known Universe with the help of ‘The Truth’.

It is already a very well established fact that ‘The Truth’ is repeatedly mentioned as a deity attribute of Jesus Christ in both the Holy Bible as well as the Koran.

Now…once again… “allah” is shown to be in need of assistance in creating the Universe.


The assistance of the Son.






Don't try to manipulate an English translation, Alhammdulilah the Arabic script is quite straight.

Indeed, the Arabic is very clear...




And trying to define a word as like (بديع) is just a lousy fallacy to make another meaning for word that means (creator). no more no less.

The classic lexicons disagree with you.

Context also disagrees with you...

Elia
May 7th, 2013, 11:40 PM
Originally Posted by Elia View Post
Bs'd

Saying one is equal to two is one step worse from the Christian rule that 1 + 1 = 1.Another Jew who rejects his Tanak.

Bs'd

It is only the Christians who say 1 + 1 = 1. The Tanach doesn't say so.


"And God spoke all these words, saying, "I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME."
Ex 20:1




Eliyahu, light unto the nations

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

Mulla Sadra
May 8th, 2013, 01:02 AM
Oh my God, this man is trying to teach me Arabic.

You are translating wrong !

What do you mean you eat Arabs on breakfast ?!!

I fail to find any kind of discussion with you.

I want you to come to me with a word in English, that means (companion) and only for female ! A word without any additions.

I am not going to read a non-sense that tells me صاحبة is for female and male.

صاحب = companion as in male
صاحبة = companion as in female

the (ة) is called the feminine letter that got no grammatical position.

If you want bring a Christian Arab who can testify!

When you say صاحبة is female I will be able to make conversation with you.

If you are trying to lie in Language, I am not sure how you will be able not to in Theology.

That's all I can say, because you are a (fool) with all due respects who wrote two long posts to tell me that a feminine word is for males.

I must say you are also a poor man to believe you are right.

Apple7
May 8th, 2013, 11:25 AM
The second verse is quite clear, THEY - as in Christians - said NOT Allah, He was NEGATING WHAT THEY (CHRISTIANS) SAID.

They say, " Allah has taken a son." Exalted is He! Rather, to Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and the earth. All are devoutly obedient to Him,
(link) (http://quran.com/2/114-120)

No.

There is no negation in the above verse…only affirmation.




And to bring verses with (بديع) is nothing, zero, because the word means "create" and it came in the same meaning tons of times in Quran and Jesus wasn't anywhere near it.


As already shown, The Son is always the subject matter in these ayat.





Anyways the verses you talked about and didn't quote are :

46.9 :

The term used is "بَدعاً" in the meaning that the prophet, just like others would call for the ONE God. (the not flesh and bones one)
This meaning doesn't relate to Creation in anyway whatsoever.

Say, "I am not something original among the messengers, nor do I know what will be done with me or with you. I only follow that which is revealed to me, and I am not but a clear warner."

Jesus is not anywhere to be seen the context,Moses is mentioned in some verses after it, so he is the new Flesh and Bones God ?

pfft :P


‘The Truth’ always refers to Jesus in the Koran…and this is contained in the context.







57.27

This verse talks about Jesus, but not just him but also Noah, Abraham and the other prophets before Jesus !

It is all about the Son.



So it's not a feature, as you are trying to imply, neither it is any kind of evidence, because the meaning of creation - as I said - is mentioned hundreds of times, without any mentioning of Jesus.


Wrong.

‘The Truth’ according to the Koran



Defining the term…


الحق = “alhaqqi”

“alhaqqi” definition:

Singular masculine noun. The Truth; one of the names of “allah”; one of the names of God; due share; justice; right claim; what ought to be; duty; incumbent.

It comes from the root “haqqa” (ha-qaf-qaf), which means it was, or became, suitable to the requirements of wisdom, justice, right or rightness, truth, or reality, or fact; or to the exigencies of the case; it was, or became, just, proper, right, correct, or true; authentic, genuine, sound, valid, substantial, or real; established, or confirmed as truth or fact; and necessitated, obligatory, incumbent or due; it was, or became, a manifest and an indubitable fact or event; it happened, betided, or befell, surely, without doubt or uncertainty. To be right, just or fitting, worthy of, justly due to, proper, genuine, real, a fact, true, necessitated, suitable, necessary, incumbent upon, suited to the requirement of justice, become certain, authentic, deserve.

References:
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume two, pp. 605 – 610
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar p. 131
A Dictionary and Glossary of the Koran, John Penrice, pp. 36 - 37




Per the classic definition, “alhaqqi” means ‘The Truth’, and is actually a name for “allah”, and a name for God.

Knowing this, observe how “alhaqqi” is applied to Jesus Christ in the Koran, as the following quintessential Koranic ayah informs us that ‘The Truth’, is only Jesus Christ…



يأهل الكتب لا تغلوا في دينكم ولا تقولوا على الله
إلا الحق إنما المسيح عيسى ابن مريم رسول الله
وكلمته ألقيها إلى مريم وروح منه فءامنوا بالله
ورسله ولا تقولوا ثلثة انتهوا خيرا لكم إنما الله
إله وحد سبحنه أن يكون له ولد له ما في
السموت وما في الأرض وكفى بالله وكيلا

Ya ahla alkitabi la taghloo fee deenikum wala taqooloo AAala Allahi illa alhaqqa innama almaseehu AAeesa ibnu maryama rasoolu Allahi wakalimatuhu alqaha ila maryama waroohun minhu faaminoo biAllahi warusulihi wala taqooloo thalathatun intahoo khayran lakum innama Allahu ilahun wahidun subhanahu an yakoona lahu waladun lahu ma fee alssamawati wama fee al-ardi wakafa biAllahi wakeelan

4.171 You The Book's family, do not go beyond the limits in your faith, and they do not say on “allah” except The Truth (is) only The Messiah Jesus, Mary's son, “allah’s” messenger, and his Word, cast forth to her, Mary, and Spirit from him; so believe by “allah”, and his messengers, and they do not say "Three." Refrain (it is) certainly agreeable to you, only “allah” one god glory be to him, that He has certainly been his Son, truly His what is in the heavens and in the earth and He sufficed by “allah”, a witness.


Exception…

The first word that we encounter in this ayah, after the term “allah”, is “illa” which gives exception to what follows it, as told to us by the classic definition…


إلا = “illa”

“illa” definition:

Regarded as a simple word. If not; unless; except; some; otherwise; less; but; and; also. This word is used to signify the sense of exception. This exception is of two kinds: 1) Exception in which the thing excepted belongs to the same class or species to which the things from which an exception is sought to be made, belongs. 2) Exception in which the excepted thing belongs to a different class or species. It commonly governs the accusative. It also means not even.

References:
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume one, pp. 76 - 78
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar p. 27



The exception, which applies to “alhaqqa”, (‘The Truth’) is then juxtaposed to the following word “innama”…



إنما = “innama”

“innama” definition:

According to the grammarians, it is a compound of “inna” and “ma”, which latter prevents the former’s having any government: it imports restriction: it imports the restriction of that which it precedes to that which follows it. In other words, it is used to particularize, or specify, or distinguish a thing from other things: it affirms a thing in relation to that which is mentioned after it, and denies it in relation to other things. Some say that it does not import restriction, but only corroboration of an affirmation, because it is a compound of the corroborative “inna” and the redundant “ma” which restrains the former from exercising government, and that it has no application to denote negation implied in restriction. It therefore seems that it is susceptible of both these meanings, bearing one or the other according as this or that suits the place. Rendered as “only”, verily.

References:
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume one, pp. 103 – 111; 118
A Grammar of the Arabic Language, W. Wright, Third edition, volume 1, p. 285
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, p. 35
A Dictionary and Glossary of the Koran, John Penrice, p. 11


The classic definition quite clearly states that “innama” affirms a thing in relation to that which is mentioned after it.

Thus, “alhaqqi” (i.e. The Truth), is the “thing” that is being related to Jesus – which is mentioned after it.

The exception is Jesus Christ, in a class all by Himself.

Hence, “The Truth is only Jesus Christ”.




Now that we understand that the authors’ of the Koran have the same Biblical understanding as to ‘The Truth’ pertaining only Jesus Christ; let’s define the one final term in this discussion and see exactly how it is used to describe the creation of the Universe in the Koran.


First, the preposition…


ب = “bi”

“bi” definition:

An inseparable preposition, prefixed to the word it governs, which, when a noun, is put in the genitive; it has diverse significations as: in, by, at, with, to, into, upon, for, or by reason of; from; with the help of; during; On account of; according to, near, through. It is used to denote adhesion of the verb to that to which it is itself prefixed; and adjunction, or association. It is also used to render a verb transitive. It is used to denote the employing a thing as an aid or instrument. It denotes a cause. It is used to denote concomitance. Before a noun signifying a place or time. It denotes substitution, meaning instead of, as in place of. It denotes requital; or the giving, or doing, in return. It is said to be peculiar to interrogation. It denotes a part of the whole. It is used to denote swearing. It denotes the end of an extent or interval. It is also redundant, to denote corroboration: and is prefixed to the agent. Frequently an expletive, when put before the compliment of a negative proposition. It also denotes the object of a transitive verb and supports the subject that is termed “zaidah” (additional). It is also used as a corroborative to confirm and to make more certain. It also denotes swear, comparison, in place of, for, from, over, on, a part of, at all, rest of.

References:
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume one, pp. 141 – 144
A Grammar of the Arabic Language, W. Wright, Third edition, volume 1, pp. 278 - 279
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar pp. 40 - 41
A Dictionary and Glossary of the Koran, John Penrice, p. 14


Interestingly, “bi” carries with it the same definitions “by”, “through”, & “for”, same as found used to describe Jesus’ creation of the Universe. For this discussion we will just use the definition “through”.

Thus, the Koranic term under discussion:

بالحق = “bi” + “al” + “haqqi” = “bialhaqqi” = through ‘The Truth’




Koranic creation accounts using the term “bialhaqqi”:


• 6.73
• 10.5
• 14.19
• 15.85
• 16.3
• 29.44
• 30.8
• 39.5
• 44.38 – 39
• 45.22
• 46.3
• 64.3




Observe the following five Koranic ayahs, which clearly separate and negate that “allah” solely created the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them – and, instead, gives exception (via the insertion of the term “illa”, i.e. except) juxtaposed to “bialhaqqi” (through ‘The Truth’), thus placing ‘The Truth’ into the necessary casual agent class – completely separate from “allah”, just as previously witnessed in 4.171.

The first example shown is an open admission that previous verses are explained in detail (yufassilu al-ayati). The fact that this had to be mentioned in the first place demonstrates that the material that is being detailed (i.e. the Holy Bible) was already in existence.



10.5


هو الذي جعل الشمس ضياء والقمر نورا
وقدره منازل لتعلموا عدد السنين والحساب ما
خلق الله ذلك إلا بالحق يفصل الءايت لقوم
يعلمون

Huwa allathee jaAAala alshshamsa diyaan waalqamara nooran waqaddarahu manazila litaAAlamoo AAadada alssineena waalhisaba ma khalaqa Allahu thalika illa bialhaqqi yufassilu al-ayati liqawmin yaAAlamoona

10.5 He whom he made the sun light and the moon light, and He decreed it stations to you know; counted the years and the reckoning, “allah” he did not create that except through ‘The Truth’; explain in detail the verses to a nation they know.



15.85


وما خلقنا السموت والأرض وما بينهما إلا بالحق وإن الساعة لءاتية فاصفح الصفح الجميل

Wama khalaqna alssamawati waal-arda wama baynahuma illa bialhaqqi wa-inna alssaAAata laatiyatun faisfahi alssafha aljameela

15.85 And we did not create the heavens and the earth and what is between them except through ‘The Truth’, and truly the Hour it will come to pass, so you pardon, the turn away, the beautiful.



30.8


أولم يتفكروا في أنفسهم ما خلق الله السموت والأرض وما بينهما إلا بالحق وأجل مسمى وإن كثيرا من الناس بلقائ ربهم لكفرون


Awa lam yatafakkaroo fee anfusihim ma khalaqa Allahu alssamawati waal-arda wama baynahuma illa bialhaqqi waajalin musamman wa-inna katheeran mina alnnasi biliqa-i rabbihim lakafiroona

30.8 Did they do not reflect in their souls, “allah” he did not create the heavens and the earth and what is between them except through ‘The Truth’, and a fixed and appointed term, and that many from the people, with meeting their Lord, disbelieving people.



44.38 – 39


وما خلقنا السموت والأرض وما بينهما لعبين ما خلقنهما إلا بالحق ولكن أكثرهم لا يعلمون

Wama khalaqna alssamawati waal-arda wama baynahuma laAAibeena ma khalaqnahuma illa bialhaqqi walakinna aktharahum la yaAAlamoona

And we did not create the heavens and the earth and what (is) between (for) those who play. We did not create them except through ‘The Truth’, and most of them they do not know. (44.38 – 39)




46.3


ما خلقنا السموت والأرض وما بينهما إلا بالحق وأجل مسمى والذين كفروا عما أنذروا معرضون

Ma khalaqna alssamawati waal-arda wama baynahuma illa bialhaqqi waajalin musamman waallatheena kafaroo AAamma onthiroo muAAridoona

46.3 We did not create the heavens and the earth and what is between them except through ‘The Truth’, and a fixed and appointed term, and whom they disbelieved therefore that they had been warned, averse.






As further evidence that the causal agent for the creation of the Universe is through ‘The Truth’ (i.e. Jesus Christ); we have the following six ayahs.

This first example is even an open admission that previous revelation (i.e. the Holy Bible) contained this information.



29.44


خلق الله السموت والأرض بالحق إن في ذلك لءاية للمؤمنين

Khalaqa Allahu alssamawati waal-arda bialhaqqi inna fee thalika laayatan lilmu-mineena

29.44 “allah” he created the heavens and the earth through ‘The Truth’, truly in that previous Revelation to believers.





14.19



ألم تر أن الله خلق السموت والأرض بالحق إن يشأ يذهبكم ويأت بخلق جديد

Alam tara anna Allaha khalaqa alssamawati waal-arda bialhaqqi in yasha yuthhibkum waya/ti bikhalqin jadeedin

14.19 Do you not see that “allah” he created the heavens and the earth through ‘The Truth’, if He wills, He takes you away and He comes with a new creation?




16.3


خلق السموت والأرض بالحق تعلى عما يشركون

Khalaqa alssamawati waal-arda bialhaqqi taAAala AAamma yushrikoona

16.3 He created the heavens and the earth through ‘The Truth’, high above, from what they associate partners.



39.5


خلق السموت والأرض بالحق يكور اليل على النهار ويكور النهار على اليل وسخر الشمس والقمر كل يجري لأجل مسمى ألا هو العزيز الغفر

Khalaqa alssamawati waal-arda bialhaqqi yukawwiru allayla AAala alnnahari wayukawwiru alnnahara AAala allayli wasakhkhara alshshamsa waalqamara kullun yajree li-ajalin musamman ala huwa alAAazeezu alghaffaru

39.5 He created the heavens and the earth through ‘The Truth’. He causes to revolve the night onto the day, and He causes to revolve the day onto the night, and He made subservient the sun and the moon, each pursues its course to a fixed and appointed term, is He not the all-mighty, the most protecting one?



45.22



وخلق الله السموت والأرض بالحق ولتجزى كل نفس بما كسبت وهم لا يظلمون

Wakhalaqa Allahu alssamawati waal-arda bialhaqqi walitujza kullu nafsin bima kasabat wahum la yuthlamoona

45.22 And “allah” he created the heavens and the earth through ‘The Truth’, and to you shall be given reward each soul with what she accomplished, and they shall not be wronged.



64.3


خلق السموت والأرض بالحق وصوركم فأحسن صوركم وإليه المصير

Khalaqa alssamawati waal-arda bialhaqqi wasawwarakum faahsana suwarakum wa-ilayhi almaseeru

64.3 He created the heavens and the earth through ‘The Truth’, and He formed you, so He did good (in) your forms, and to Him the return.






Reviewing, once again, this quintessential Koranic ayah, we are told that ‘The Truth’, Jesus Christ, is also ‘The Word’…



يأهل الكتب لا تغلوا في دينكم ولا تقولوا على الله
إلا الحق إنما المسيح عيسى ابن مريم رسول الله
وكلمته ألقيها إلى مريم وروح منه فءامنوا بالله
ورسله ولا تقولوا ثلثة انتهوا خيرا لكم إنما الله
إله وحد سبحنه أن يكون له ولد له ما في
السموت وما في الأرض وكفى بالله وكيلا

Ya ahla alkitabi la taghloo fee deenikum wala taqooloo AAala Allahi illa alhaqqa innama almaseehu AAeesa ibnu maryama rasoolu Allahi wakalimatuhu alqaha ila maryama waroohun minhu faaminoo biAllahi warusulihi wala taqooloo thalathatun intahoo khayran lakum innama Allahu ilahun wahidun subhanahu an yakoona lahu waladun lahu ma fee alssamawati wama fee al-ardi wakafa biAllahi wakeelan

4.171 You The Book's family, do not go beyond the limits in your faith, and they do not say on “allah” except ‘The Truth’ (is) only The Messiah Jesus, Mary's son, “allah’s” messenger, and his Word, cast forth to her, Mary, and Spirit from him; so believe by “allah”, and his messengers, and they do not say "Three." Refrain (it is) certainly agreeable to you, only “allah” one god glory be to him, that He has certainly been his Son, truly His what is in the heavens and in the earth and He sufficed by “allah”, a witness.



Just as proclaimed in 4.171, this final ayah repeats and confirms that ‘The Truth’ is also ‘his Word’ (qawluhu alhaqqu), as thus…




6.73


وهو الذي خلق السموت والأرض بالحق ويوم
يقول كن فيكون قوله الحق وله الملك يوم ينفخ
في الصور علم الغيب والشهدة وهو الحكيم
الخبير

Wahuwa allathee khalaqa alssamawati waal-arda bialhaqqi wayawma yaqoolu kun fayakoonu qawluhu alhaqqu walahu almulku yawma yunfakhu fee alssoori AAalimu alghaybi waalshshahadati wahuwa alhakeemu alkhabeeru

6.73 And he whom created the heavens and the earth through ‘The Truth’, and a day He says: "Be." So it becomes; his Word (is) ‘The Truth’, and certainly He (is) the King; a day the horn will be blown into, knower (of) the unseen, and the testimony, and He is the wise, the ever aware.

Mulla Sadra
May 8th, 2013, 05:05 PM
As I said I fail to make discussion with you, while you are damaging me language, and telling me you can eat me on breakfast.

I guess Orthodox are always, as foolish, in connecting verse in Quran.

Especially Coptic.

Apple7
May 8th, 2013, 09:49 PM
(Before coming to this Forum, I didn't know there were any human on Earth who think Jesus made the World, And I am quite knowing in Quran, it never talks about such thing).

You don't get out too much, do you....

Even the authors of the Koran knew that Jesus is the Creator.

What is your excuse now?





Also the word doesn't mean creation here, it means lying and how Christians changed in their theology

You speak from islamic myth 101.

The authors of the Koran have only praise for the Holy Bible.

You should too.





Please, You are making big fallacies, it doesn't say what you are saying, I know some Christian Arabs who tried better verses, thats MAY give the meaning IN ARABIC (these verses aren't even near from that), and the good thing that the Priests in the prophet's time tried to use the verses and the prophet's answers were quite decisive.

Your defense of your position is a complete joke.




When we say Messiah we don't mean he died.

When asked about Jesus’ Crucifixion, Muslims like youself will invariably reference one ayah from the Koran, to support their conviction.

Islam bases an entire doctrine regarding Jesus’ crucifixion & death upon the cross, on a single solitary Koranic ayah.

And in this single solitary ayah, the entire doctrine teeters upon the rendering of a single solitary word (wama) – which Islam has misinterpreted as a negative.


The correct rendering of this ayah is as thus…




وقولهم إنا قتلنا المسيح عيسى ابن مريم رسول
الله وما قتلوه وما صلبوه ولكن شبه لهم وإن
الذين اختلفوا فيه لفي شك منه ما لهم به من علم
إلا اتباع الظن وما قتلوه يقينا

Waqawlihim inna qatalna almaseeha AAeesa ibna maryama rasoola Allahi wama qataloohu wama salaboohu walakin shubbiha lahum wa-inna allatheena ikhtalafoo feehi lafee shakkin minhu ma lahum bihi min AAilmin illa ittibaAAa alththanni wama qataloohu yaqeenan

4.157 And their saying: "Truly we killed The Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son, “allah's” messenger”, and that they killed him, and that they crucified him, and certainly they alike, and truly whom they differed in Him, certainly they (are) not in doubt from Him, on account of Him, from knowledge, except to follow the belief, and that they surely killed him.


To overcome the Muslim mindset, we need to first define the Arabic word that has been misinterpreted by Islam.

Here is the classic Arabic definition for "ma"...

ما = “ma”

“ma” definition:

Conjunctive pronoun. That; which; that which; whatsoever; what; as; as much; in such a manner as; as much as; as for as; any kind; when; how. Does not, as a rule, refer to reasonable things, but instances to the contrary sometimes occur. It is one of those particles, which, in conditional propositions, govern the verb in the conditional mood; it is frequently a mere expletive. It is also a negative adverb, Not; in general it denies a circumstance either present, or of past, but little remote from the present; it governs the attribute in the accusative, thus it is a negative particle when placed before the perfect as in 53.2; or before a pronoun as in 68.2; or before an demonstrative noun as in 12.31. The particle, when joined to the perfect, denies the past; when joined to the imperfect, the present.

References:
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume eight, p. 3016
A Grammar of the Arabic Language, W. Wright, Third edition, volume 2, p. 300
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, pp. 523 - 524
A Dictionary and Glossary of the Koran, John Penrice, pp. 135 - 136



As we can see below..."ma", when joined to "wa", is simply a filler-word in this ayah...


وقولهم إنا قتلنا المسيح عيسى ابن مريم رسول
الله وما قتلوه وما صلبوه ولكن شبه لهم وإن
الذين اختلفوا فيه لفي شك منه ما لهم به من علم
إلا اتباع الظن وما قتلوه يقينا

Waqawlihim inna qatalna almaseeha AAeesa ibna maryama rasoola Allahi wama qataloohu wama salaboohu walakin shubbiha lahum wa-inna allatheena ikhtalafoo feehi lafee shakkin minhu ma lahum bihi min AAilmin illa ittibaAAa alththanni wama qataloohu yaqeenan

4.157 And their saying: "Certainly we killed The Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son, “allah's” messenger”, and that they killed him, and that they crucified him, and certainly they alike, and truly whom they differed in Him, certainly they (are) not in doubt from Him, on account of Him, from knowledge, except to follow the belief, and that they surely killed him.



As witnessed by the plethora of positives in this ayah, the conditional mood is only positive.

Couple this, to the very next ayah, as thus…



بل رفعه الله إليه وكان الله عزيزا حكيما

Bal rafaAAahu Allahu ilayhi wakana Allahu AAazeezan hakeeman

4.158 But “allah”, he raised Him to him, and “allah” mighty, wise.




4.157 & 4.158 tell us of its most likely Biblical source...


This One given to you by the before-determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you having taken by lawless hands, having crucified Him, you killed Him. But God raised Him up, loosing the throes of death, because it was not possible for Him to be held by it. (Act 2.23 - 24)


As we can see, 4.157 & 4.158 are simply parroting NT material...


Thus, context is clear that in 4.157 “wama” is simply governing the verb in the conditional mood – which is positive….NOT negative.


Further, rendering this Islamic one-hit-wonder ayah as a negative would force other Koranic ayahs into contradiction.



As further evidence that 4.157 confirms Jesus’ death upon the cross, all the Koranic crucifixion instances are shown here, which confirm that the Koran always describes a crucifixion event with complete certainty of death…



• 5.33…they will be crucified till death
• 7.124…I will surely crucify you till death
• 12.41…so will be crucified till death
• 20.71…and I will surely crucify you till death
• 26.49…and I will surely crucify you till death


Death through crucifixion is always mandated in the Koran.

Thus, there is no reason at all to believe that 4.157 would break this trend…





When we say Word of Allah, it doesn't mean he's God.

It did to the authors of the Koran.




When we say he's a spirit from God, we don't mean he's son of God.


It did to the authors of the Koran.




So, Don't even try :)


Owned.

Apple7
May 8th, 2013, 09:55 PM
Oh my God, this man is trying to teach me Arabic.

Done.



You are translating wrong !

Our exegesis shows otherwise.





What do you mean you eat Arabs on breakfast ?!!

I fail to find any kind of discussion with you.

Cat got your tongue?





I want you to come to me with a word in English, that means (companion) and only for female ! A word without any additions.

I am not going to read a non-sense that tells me صاحبة is for female and male.

صاحب = companion as in male
صاحبة = companion as in female

the (ة) is called the feminine letter that got no grammatical position.


If you want bring a Christian Arab who can testify!

When you say صاحبة is female I will be able to make conversation with you.

If you are trying to lie in Language, I am not sure how you will be able not to in Theology.

That's all I can say, because you are a (fool) with all due respects who wrote two long posts to tell me that a feminine word is for males.

I must say you are also a poor man to believe you are right.







A word being feminine or masculine does not mean that it must pertain to a certain gender.

Wake up!

Elia
May 9th, 2013, 11:27 AM
Bs'd


"And God spoke all these words, saying, "I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME."
Ex 20:1



Eliyahu, light unto the nations

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

Elia
May 11th, 2013, 11:34 AM
Bs'd


And there will never be another God than Y-H-W-H:


Isaiah 45:21-23 “You are my witnesses," declares Y-H-W-H, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me."




Eliyahu, light unto the nations

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

Elia
May 12th, 2013, 06:37 AM
B'sd


Deuteronomy 4:39 “Acknowledge and take to heart this day that Y-H-W-H is God in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other.”



Eliyahu, light unto the nations

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

Elia
May 13th, 2013, 06:33 PM
Bs'd


Isaiah 45:21-23 “Declare what is to be, present it- let them take counsel together. Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past? Was it not I, Y-H-W-H? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me. Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.”






Eliyahu, light unto the nations

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

Elia
May 16th, 2013, 12:08 AM
Bs'd

Isaiah 45:5-6 “I am Y-H-W-H , and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me, so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides me."

Is it so hard for Christians to understand that there is no other God than Y-H-W-H?



Eliyahu, light unto the nations

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

Apple7
May 19th, 2013, 01:30 PM
Is it so hard for Christians to understand that there is no other God than Y-H-W-H?




Which one?

God the Father....or...God the Spirit?

Elia
May 19th, 2013, 11:48 PM
Which one?

God the Father....or...God the Spirit?

Bs'd

Only Y-H-W-H is God, there is no such thing as "God the Spirit".




Eliyahu, light unto the nations

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

Apple7
May 20th, 2013, 11:28 AM
Bs'd

Only Y-H-W-H is God, there is no such thing as "God the Spirit".






If God can be Father, then God can be Spirit.

Elia
May 20th, 2013, 10:07 PM
If God can be Father, then God can be Spirit.

Bs'd

He can also be strong, invisible, omni-present, mercifull, righteous, and much more.

But that doesn't mean there is more than one God who is one.



שמע ישראל י-ה-ו-ה אלהנו י-ה-ו-ה אחד

Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE.

And you shall love Y-H-W-H your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.
And these words which I command you this day shall be upon your heart;
and you shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise.
And you shall bind them as a sign upon your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.
And you shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.
Deut 6:4-9

Y-H-W-H, the one and only God who is one.

Beside Him there is no God, no Buddha, no JC, no David Koresh; NOBODY.

Whoever worships anything or anybody else than Y-H-W-H is an IDOL WORSHIPER.



Eliyahu, light unto the nations

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

Apple7
May 21st, 2013, 11:04 AM
Bs'd

He can also be strong, invisible, omni-present, mercifull, righteous, and much more.

But that doesn't mean there is more than one God who is one.



By your very own reasoning, God can also be Son.

Elia
May 21st, 2013, 10:29 PM
By your very own reasoning, God can also be Son.

Bs'd

A son by definition, springs forth from his father.

God is the source of everything, so he cannot be a son.



The trinity is an idolatrous concept, taken from pagan religions much older than Christianity, and it is NOWHERE to be found in the Bible.
It is a desparate attempt to turn two gods; God the Father and the Christian god the son, into one God, because the Bible teaches that there is only one God. The trinity says 1 + 1 + 1 = 1. It claims there is one God, made up of three persons.
It is illogical, extra-Biblical, and flies right in the face of the BIBLICAL teaching that God is one.


“Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus.” – Thomas Jefferson




Eliyahu, light unto the nations

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

Elia
May 23rd, 2013, 11:46 PM
Bs'd

“This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.”
Isaiah 44:6

Elia
May 28th, 2013, 09:52 PM
Bs'd

“This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.”
Isaiah 44:6

Bs'd

Does it finally start to sink in, that there is no other God than Y-H-W-H?


Deuteronomy 4:35 “You were shown these things so that you might know that Y-H-W-H is God; besides him there is no other.”

Deuteronomy 4:39 “Acknowledge and take to heart this day that Y-H-W-H is God in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other.”

II Samuel 7:22 “How great you are, O Sovereign Y-H-W-H! There is no one like you, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.”

I Kings 8:60 “so that all the peoples of the earth may know that Y-H-W-H is God and that there is no other.”

I Chronicles 17:20 “There is no one like you, O Y-H-W-H, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.”

II Chronicles 6:14 “O Y-H-W-H, God of Israel, there is no God like you in heaven or on earth.”

Nehemiah 9:6 “You alone are Y-H-W-H.”

Isaiah 45:21-23 “You are my witnesses," declares Y-H-W-H, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me."

Isaiah 44:6 “This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.”

Isaiah 45:5-6 “I am Y-H-W-H , and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me, so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides me."

Isaiah 45:21-23 “Declare what is to be, present it- let them take counsel together. Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past? Was it not I, Y-H-W-H? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me. Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.”

Joel 2:27 “Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am Y-H-W-H your God, and that there is no other;”



Exodus 20:1-3 “And God spoke all these words: "I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME.”




Eliyahu, light unto the nations

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

skinker
May 29th, 2013, 08:08 AM
Elias, these are lies you believe in. Please do your historical research more thoroughly and stop passing on Jewish religious propaganda posing as authority. If you had done your research into the historic roots of Judaism you would have learned about those roots coming out of ancient Canaan. You would have learned about Canaan's pantheon of gods and goddesses of which Yahweh was one, one of the sons of Canaan's top God, EL Elyon, God Most High. If you had learned this, that Yahweh was originally a Son of God Most High, you would understand your own Torah's Deuteronomy 32 references to Yahweh's role as tribal god of the Israelites appointed to that role by EL Elyon. You would have understood these ancient traces of Canaanite worship of multiple gods preserved in Psalm 82 as well. Judaism was never really a monotheistic religion. It is henotheism where Jews are taught to conduct religious war with all other worshipers of other gods. A true God of All has no earthly need to prove It's omniscience and would see that human knowledge spreads at various rates through time across the globe. With the End always within sight of God, why create war to hurry the recognition of wholeness of everything when it is always whole to begin with and individual recognition of this is sporatic and never uniformly comprehended, the immediacy of life's problems always clouding that awareness?

So with knowledge that Judaism too has its multiple gods, I mean seriously man, research that sun god being honored each year in the Hannukah menorah's where Shamash, the ancient sun god, is the Helper right smack in the middle of it. The story of Sampson too is a direct honoring of Shamash as a sun god. Let's see, we can take this quite a bit farther and see how the Hebrews in the 700's B.C. were familiar with Hindu Vedic Brahmin merchants with their incense trade business out of Yemen with trade connections to India and all the Near East. What did ancient Hebrews learn about Vedic Brahminism...hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

How about "Abraham and Sarah" for starters? As Judaized Brahma and his consort Sarasvati, with Ghaggar transformed into Hagar making the connection impossible by statistical odds of coincidence of thousands to one against. Turns out there are quite a few pagan gods become "Hebrews" in the Torah/Tanakh tales but these historical facts don't stop our Jewish religious warrior here from daily attack on Christian traditions unfortunately sharing the same Jewish mythological basis and not knowing it..like us Gnostic Christians do but never could share it until Pauline Christians saw the Light.

Elia
May 29th, 2013, 09:42 PM
So with knowledge that Judaism too has its multiple gods, I mean seriously man, research that sun god being honored each year in the Hannukah menorah's where Shamash,

Bs'd

I mean, seriously man, see what the Bible teaches:

Deuteronomy 4:35 “You were shown these things so that you might know that Y-H-W-H is God; besides him there is no other.”

Deuteronomy 4:39 “Acknowledge and take to heart this day that Y-H-W-H is God in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other.”

II Samuel 7:22 “How great you are, O Sovereign Y-H-W-H! There is no one like you, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.”

I Kings 8:60 “so that all the peoples of the earth may know that Y-H-W-H is God and that there is no other.”

I Chronicles 17:20 “There is no one like you, O Y-H-W-H, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.”

II Chronicles 6:14 “O Y-H-W-H, God of Israel, there is no God like you in heaven or on earth.”

Nehemiah 9:6 “You alone are Y-H-W-H.”

Isaiah 45:21-23 “You are my witnesses," declares Y-H-W-H, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me."

Isaiah 44:6 “This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.”

Isaiah 45:5-6 “I am Y-H-W-H , and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me, so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides me."

Isaiah 45:21-23 “Declare what is to be, present it- let them take counsel together. Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past? Was it not I, Y-H-W-H? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me. Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.”

Joel 2:27 “Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am Y-H-W-H your God, and that there is no other;”



Exodus 20:1-3 “And God spoke all these words: "I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME.”

Please spare me that idiocy of "multiple gods in Judaism".


How about "Abraham and Sarah" for starters? As Judaized Brahma and his consort Sarasvati, with Ghaggar transformed into Hagar making the connection impossible by statistical odds of coincidence of thousands to one against. Turns out there are quite a few pagan gods become "Hebrews" in the Torah/Tanakh tales but these historical facts don't stop our Jewish religious warrior here from daily attack on Christian traditions unfortunately sharing the same Jewish mythological basis and not knowing it..like us Gnostic Christians do but never could share it until Pauline Christians saw the Light.

What are Christianity and Islam? They are bastardizations of Judaism.

So also Brahma, it is the result of people starting to worship a human being; Abraham, just like Christianity does.



Eliyahu, light unto the nations

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

Apple7
May 30th, 2013, 07:46 PM
A son by definition, springs forth from his father.

Show us.




God is the source of everything, so he cannot be a son.

If God is the source of everthing, then even your feeble faith cannot limit Him.

Elia
May 30th, 2013, 11:18 PM
Show us.

Bs'd

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Son


If God is the source of everthing, then even your feeble faith cannot limit Him.

That's why I'm not limiting Him.


"You saw no form of any kind the day Y-H-W-H spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman, or like any animal on earth or any bird that flies in the air, or like any creature that moves along the ground or any fish in the waters below. And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars—all the heavenly array—do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things Y-H-W-H your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven."
Deut 4:15-19



Eliyahu, light unto the nations

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

Elia
June 1st, 2013, 09:51 PM
Bs'd

Deuteronomy 4:35 “You were shown these things so that you might know that Y-H-W-H is God; besides him there is no other.”

Deuteronomy 4:39 “Acknowledge and take to heart this day that Y-H-W-H is God in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other.”

II Samuel 7:22 “How great you are, O Sovereign Y-H-W-H! There is no one like you, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.”

I Kings 8:60 “so that all the peoples of the earth may know that Y-H-W-H is God and that there is no other.”

I Chronicles 17:20 “There is no one like you, O Y-H-W-H, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.”

II Chronicles 6:14 “O Y-H-W-H, God of Israel, there is no God like you in heaven or on earth.”

Nehemiah 9:6 “You alone are Y-H-W-H.”

Isaiah 45:21-23 “You are my witnesses," declares Y-H-W-H, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me."

Isaiah 44:6 “This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.”

Isaiah 45:5-6 “I am Y-H-W-H , and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me, so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides me."

Isaiah 45:21-23 “Declare what is to be, present it- let them take counsel together. Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past? Was it not I, Y-H-W-H? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me. Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.”

Joel 2:27 “Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am Y-H-W-H your God, and that there is no other;”



Exodus 20:1-3 “And God spoke all these words: "I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME.”



Eliyahu, light unto the nations

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

Apple7
June 1st, 2013, 10:06 PM
Bs'd

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Son


From YOUR googled link...


'A son is a male offspring; a boy or man in relation to his parents.'


Key term....'parents'...

Elia
June 1st, 2013, 10:08 PM
From YOUR googled link...




Key term....'parents'...

Bs'd

So now you also think that God is married??

Apple7
June 1st, 2013, 10:10 PM
Bs'd

So now you also think that God is married??

The definition is YOURS.

Now defend it....:cigar:

Elia
June 1st, 2013, 10:12 PM
The definition is YOURS.

Now defend it....:cigar:

Bs'd

Don't expect me to defend your idiocy

Apple7
June 1st, 2013, 10:16 PM
Bs'd

Don't expect me to defend your idiocy

We have never expected that you could actualy stand and defend anything that you mindlessly repost, ad nausea...:rotfl:

Elia
June 1st, 2013, 10:23 PM
Bs'd

I never expected you to be able to give a definition of your idolatrous "trinity".

But I'll do it for you:


Definition of the trinity:

The trinity is an idolatrous concept, taken from pagan religions much older than Christianity, and it is NOWHERE to be found in the Bible.
It is a desparate attempt to turn two gods; God the Father and the Christian god the son, into one God, because the Bible teaches that there is only one God. The trinity says 1 + 1 + 1 = 1. It claims there is one God, made up of three persons.
It is illogical, extra-Biblical, and flies right in the face of the BIBLICAL teaching that God is one.

“Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus.” – Thomas Jefferson



“Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus.” – Thomas Jefferson




Eliyahu, light unto the nations

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

Elia
June 12th, 2013, 08:59 PM
Bs'd

I never expected you to be able to give a definition of your idolatrous "trinity".

But I'll do it for you:


Definition of the trinity:

The trinity is an idolatrous concept, taken from pagan religions much older than Christianity, and it is NOWHERE to be found in the Bible.
It is a desparate attempt to turn two gods; God the Father and the Christian god the son, into one God, because the Bible teaches that there is only one God. The trinity says 1 + 1 + 1 = 1. It claims there is one God, made up of three persons.
It is illogical, extra-Biblical, and flies right in the face of the BIBLICAL teaching that God is one.

“Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus.” – Thomas Jefferson



“Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus.” – Thomas Jefferson




Eliyahu, light unto the nations

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

Bs'd

The Christians gave up on the trinity debate.

Hereby the pagan extra-Biblical unlogical trinity goes out the window, and we'll reinstitute the Biblical fact that GOD IS ONE:


"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"Listen, Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is One" Holman Christian Standard Bible

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." English Standard Version

"Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!" New American Standard Bible

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." New International Version

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!" New King James Version"



"And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, "Which commandment is the first of all?" Jesus answered, "The first is, `Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, THE LORD IS ONE; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' The second is this, `You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." And the scribe said to him, "You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that HE IS ONE, and there is no other but he; and to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices." And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God."" Mark 12:28-34 Revised Standard Version

“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one." .... "You are right in saying that God is one" New International Version

"Here is the most important one. Moses said, 'Israel, listen to me. The Lord is our God. The Lord is one." .... "You are right in saying that God is one." New International Readers Version

"Jesus answered: Listen, Israel! The Lord our God, The Lord is One." .... "You have correctly said that He is One," Holman Christian Standard Bible

"Jesus answered, The first is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God, the Lord is one:" .... "thou hast well said that he is one;" American Standard Version

"Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one." New King James Version

"Jesus answered, "The most important is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one" .... "You have truly said that he is one," English Standard Version

"Jesus said, "The first in importance is, 'Listen, Israel: The Lord your God is one;" .... "A wonderful answer, Teacher! So lucid and accurate—that God is one" The Message

"‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one." .... “You are right in saying that God is one" New International Version



"Now an intermediary implies more than one; but GOD IS ONE." Gal 3:20 Revised Standard Version

"Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but GOD IS ONE" King James Version

"A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but GOD IS ONE." New International Version

"Now an intermediary implies more than one, but GOD IS ONE." English Standard Version

"Now a mediator is not a mediator of one; but GOD IS ONE." American Standard Version

"and the mediator is not of one, and GOD IS ONE" Youngs Literal Translation



"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." James 2:19 Revised Standard Version

"thou -- thou dost believe that GOD IS ONE; thou dost well," Youngs Literal translation

"Thou believest that GOD IS ONE; thou doest well:" American Standard Version

"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." Holman Christian Standard Bible.

"*Thou* believest that GOD IS ONE. Thou doest well." Darby Translation.

"It’s good that you believe that GOD IS ONE." Common English Bible

"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." English Standard Version

"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." Amplified Bible

"You believe that GOD IS ONE You do well;" New American Standard Bible


So the Bible teaches clearly that God is ONE.



"And J-e-h-o-v-a-h shall be King over all the earth: in that day shall J-e-h-o-v-a-h be one, and his name one." Zach 14:9 American Standard Version

"And the LORD shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be— “The LORD is one, And His name one." New King James Version

"And the LORD will be king over all the earth. On that day the LORD will be one and his name one." English Standard Version

"And the Lord shall be King over all the earth; in that day the Lord shall be one [in the recognition and worship of men] and His name one." Amplified Bible




Eliyahu, light unto the nations

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

Disciple_of_christ
June 12th, 2013, 11:13 PM
The word translated as God is "Elohim" in Genesis 1 which means "Gods" in the plural form, but it is singular. How can 3 be working as 1? it is because Jesus was always part of God himself. Father, son, and holy ghost.

John 1:1-4 "1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men."

v. 14 "14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."

Jesus was not always a man, he came down to the earth, robed in human flesh.

Elia
June 13th, 2013, 12:40 PM
The word translated as God is "Elohim" in Genesis 1 which means "Gods" in the plural form,

Bs'd

"Elohiem" is singular, unless the context unequivocally shows it must be plural.


but it is singular. How can 3 be working as 1? it is because Jesus was always part of God himself. Father, son, and holy ghost.

There is only one God who is one, and not three.

Only Y-H-W-H is God, and NOBODY else.

The trinity simply doesn't exist, not in Gods word, the Hebrew Bible, and not in the NT.


Jesus was not always a man, he came down to the earth, robed in human flesh.

"You saw no form of any kind the day Y-H-W-H spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman, or like any animal on earth or any bird that flies in the air, or like any creature that moves along the ground or any fish in the waters below. And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars—all the heavenly array—do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things Y-H-W-H your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven."
Deut 4:15-19




Eliyahu, light unto the nations

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

Disciple_of_christ
June 13th, 2013, 02:45 PM
ok, what about Gen. 1:26 where it says "26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

The word "God" in hebrew, is "elohiym" meaning "Gods", can you explain this to me?

The spirit of God is also part of God, correct? If i'm not mistaken, there are jewish rabbis who mention that there are three persons in ONE God. If you were to examine the suffering servant of isaiah 53, it's not speaking of israel.

Elia
June 13th, 2013, 09:59 PM
ok, what about Gen. 1:26 where it says "26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”



Bs'd

Genesis 1:26; "Let us make man" If anybody finds in a text the word "us", would any normal person assume that it refers to one person with a multi-personality disorder? Of course not.

But why then, when Christians see the word "us" in the Bible, do they think that?

Gen 1:26 is used as a 'proof' that there is more than one God, or one God who is not one, eventhough the Bible clearly teaches that there is only one God who is one. and despite the fact that there are several other valid explanations for the plural word "us". One explanation is that it is a majestic plural as used by kings. Another possible explanation is that God was talking to the angels.

Some Christians try to refute the last argument by saying that the angels didn't create. They point to Genesis 1:1; "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." They say: 'God was the creator, and not the angels.' However, it is a given in Jewish law that an emissary is equal to the one who sends him. When a Jewish man marries a woman through an agent, the legal effect is the same as when he marries her personally. A good Biblical example of this is to be found in Genesis 19 where is spoken about the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. God sent two angels to destroy the cities, the angels said to Lot in verse 13: "For we are about to destroy this place, because the outcry against its people has become great before the LORD, and the LORD has sent us to destroy it." Upon this Lot says to his sons in law: "Up, get out of this place; for the LORD is about to destroy the city." Lot didn't say: "The angels are going to destroy the city" He said: "The LORD (Y-H-W-H in the Hebrew text) is going to destroy the city". And in verse 29 it is written: "So it was that, when God destroyed the cities of the valley...." So the angels were send by God to destroy the cities, but God is considered to be the one who did it, because He was the one who sent them. So why shouldn't the same hold true for the creation?

But one way or the other, no plural created man. Look in Genesis 5:1; "When God created man ..." In Hebrew this is: "bara Elohiem adam" Here the verb "to create", in Hebrew "bara", is in the singular, indicating clearly that Elohiem who created man is one. The same goes for the very first verse of the Bible: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." The word created is here written in the singular; it says "bara". If God was a plural, it should have been "baru".
setstats


BUT, back to the pronouns, Y-H-W-H says the following:

Isaiah 44:6 “This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.”

It says "I" am Y-H-W-H. And, as we all know, "I" is singular, and not plural, and therefore no three persons in Y-H-W-H. Otherwise He would have said: "WE are Y-H-W-H."

But no such thing, God says: "I am Y-H-W-H".

No trinity.

Another example of a pronoun:

Nehemiah 9:6 “You alone are Y-H-W-H.”

As we see, it says that YOU, in the Hebrew singular, not plural are Y-H-W-H.

Again, no YOU, plural, are Y-H-W-H, but YOU singular, are Y-H-W-H.

So no three persons in God.

Another one:

Isaiah 44:6 “This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.”

Clear what? It doesn't say: “This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: WE are the first and WE are the last; apart from US there is no God.”

No such a thing, it is all SINGULAR.

Another one:

Joel 2:27 “Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am Y-H-W-H your God, and that there is no other;”

Again, God says: "I am Y-H-W-H", and not "WE are Y-H-W-H" Such a thing simply doesn't exist.

I can go on and on with this, but these examples suffice. There is NO plurality in God.

And the word "us" when God speaks to the angels, does not imply otherwise.


The word "God" in hebrew, is "elohiym" meaning "Gods", can you explain this to me?

Here is a Christian file on the word "elohiem":

Elohim and Echad
http://www.torahofmessiah.com/elohim.html
A typical example of the many word games Trinitarians and others use as they endeavor to promote their false god.
Adapted from The Journal of Hebraic Renewal, which reprinted it from Focus on the Kingdom magazine.

To support the commonly held teaching that God is a plural entity consisting of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit [1], Messianics that follow the primary Traditional Christian doctrines from which they came, as well as Traditional Christians, themselves, will appeal to two Hebrew words: Elohim (eloheem) and echad (echad, "ch" as in the Scottish "loch"). They assert that the Hebrew word, Elohim, indicates that God is a plural entity because it is the plural form of the word for God and is the title most often used for the God of Israel. Echad - used in the well-known "shema" of Deuteronomy 6:4 instructing Israel that their God is "one" - is asserted by them to show the plurality of God because, they say echad in the Hebrew actually indicates a compound, rather than an absolute, unity; that is, rather than a "simple" one, they say echad indicates a unity of more than one.

Each claim will now be examined.
Elohim

Elohim is the plural form of Eloah and appears closely related to El, which usually means "god", "God", or "mighty one". But IF we were right to translate Elohim as a plural word, the Bible would teach us that in the beginning, "Gods" created the heavens and the earth (Gen. 1:1). The Bible would then support the idea that more than one God created the universe, spoke to Abraham, delivered Israel from bondage and continued dealing with them, etc., since Elohim is used throughout the Tanakh ("Old" Testament) as Israel's God(s). But virtually no Christian - Messianic or otherwise - would profess that there is more than one God.

So, how do we resolve this dilemma? And why do all the translations translate Elohim simply as "God" and not "Gods" when it refers to the true God?

In Biblical Hebrew, a noun that is plural in form is not necessarily plural in meaning - a fact most Messianic leaders realize, yet seem to ignore. For instance, the Hebrew words chayim (chayeem, "life") [2] and panim (paneem, "face", "presence", "countenance") [3] are plural in form, but almost always singular in meaning. Another word, adon, "lord", "master", [4] is often plural in form. In its plural form it is sometimes used of a single person - Abraham (Gen. 24:9-10), Joseph (Gen. 42:30,33), the king of Egypt (Gen. 40:1) and an anonymous "fierce king" under whose rule the Egyptians were prophesied to come (Isa. 19:4, NRSV). There are instances of other plural Hebrew words employed in the Hebrew Bible with singular meaning.

Equally striking is the fact that the same term, elohim, is used of the individual false gods of Israel's surrounding nations. Elohim is used of Dagon, the god of the Philistines (1 Sam. 5:7); of Chemosh, the god of Ammon and Moab (Jud. 11:24; 1 Kings 11:33); of Ashtarte (or Ashtoreth), the god(dess) of the Sidonians (1 Kings 11:33); of Milcom, another god of the Ammorites (1 Kings 11:33). In Smith's Bible Dictionary (NISBE) no plurality in any one of these gods is even hinted at. Additionally, in Ezra's prayer in Nehemiah 9:18, elohim is used to refer to the single golden calf made by Israel in the wilderness.

Elohim is also used of single human figures. Moses in both Exodus 4:16 and 7:1 and the Messianic king in Psalms 45:6 (verse 7 in the Hebrew Bible) are each referred to as elohim [5].

What all this indicates is that in Biblical Hebrew, plural nouns in general and Elohim in particular do not always have plural meanings. In the case of the word Elohim, in fact, it would appear as though we should almost always understand it as singular in meaning unless the context indicates that "gods" are referred to.

Hebrew scholars are entirely familiar with these facts (as are Christianized Messianic leaders). The expressions "plural of majesty" or "plural of rank" or "intensive plural" are sometimes used to describe this phenomenon of language (not just Hebrew) where the form of a word can be plural but its meaning is singular. The idea is that the plural stresses or exalts the importance of the person referred to. The following is a quotation regarding Elohim from the NISBE, in their article on "God, Names of":

The use of the plural form with singular meaning is not unique to Israel. Similar forms occur in pre-Israelite Babylonian and Canaanite texts in which a worshiper wishes to exalt a particular god above others. This form has been called the plural of majesty or the intensive plural because it implies that all the fullness of deity is concentrated in the one god. Elohim's being the most common word for God in the Tanakh thus conveys this idea. (Vol. 2, p. 505).

Smith's Bible Dictionary has this to say on the same subject in their article entitled "God":

The plural form of Elohim has given rise to much discussion. The fanciful idea that it referred to the trinity of persons in the Godhead hardly finds now a supporter among scholars. It is either what grammarians call the plural of majesty, or it denotes the fullness of divine strength, the sum of the powers displayed by God (p. 220).

But by no means is YHWH ever referred to by plural forms. In fact, whenever the people of God speak of Him in the Hebrew Bible using a pronoun, they ALWAYS employ the singular form. Whether it is the third person (He, Him, His) or the second person (You, Your, Thou, Thy) this is the case. The people of God understood their God to be a single Individual. [6]

Nor is He only referred to in the plural when "God" is the translated word. Two forms referred to above, El and Eloah used in the Tanakh to refer to the true God, are both singular in form. [7] When an Aramaic word for God, Elah, is used, it too appears to be always in its singular form when referring to the true God. [8]

The form of the verb used in Hebrew when Elohim the true God is the subject is also instructive. It is virtually always singular in form throughout the Tanakh. In Genesis 1, for example - where the reader is first introduced to Elohim the Creator - the Hebrew verb form is always in the third masculine singular whenever [9] we read that "Elohim created" or "Elohim said" or "Elohim made", etc. [10]

Finally, the Septuagint (known as "LXX"), the Greek version of the Hebrew Bible (probably translated in the third and second century B.C.E.) ALWAYS translated the Hebrew word for God in the singular (Gr. theos). The LXX version of the Old Testament is often cited in the New Testament instead of the Hebrew. [11]

Therefore - returning to the original argument (which usually includes the "Let us..." statement in Gen. 1:26) - if God must be regarded as a plural entity because He is referred to in a plural form, why then must He not be regarded as a singular entity since He is referred to in singular forms? Are not all these statements Holy Scripture? We could be left with a contradiction were it not for the many examples of plural forms with singular meanings in Hebrew, including the concept of "plural of majesty". The plural of majesty clarifies the usage of the plural form for the true God in the Tanakh. He is described by thousands and thousands of singular verbs and pronouns. Language has no more definite way of telling us that God is ONE Person, the Father of Yeshua - but definitely NOT Yeshua!

As a final proof, note the Messianic 22nd Psalm. I will quote from only a portion of this Psalm which, when read using common sense, CLEARLY shows that Yeshua (the prophetic focus of this Psalm) refers to God (Elohim and El) as HIS God (Elohim). I will include in parenthesis the Hebrew word translated as "God."

Psalm 22:1,2,10
1 My God (El), my God (El), why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? 2 O my God (Elohim), I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent. ... 10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God (El) from my mother's belly.
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

This single quote from Psalms - and there are other Messianic verses which present the same proof - PROVES that Yeshua is NOT God (Elohim), since he (Yeshua) refers to the ONE, True God as HIS Elohim! Verse 10 also proves how Yeshua worshipped the same God we should worship from his birth! Thus, since Yeshua very clearly referred to the God HE WORSHIPPED as Elohim, the term Elohim cannot possibly refer to Yeshua in the sense of making him God!
Echad

The other main argument from the Hebrew used to teach that God is a "plural" entity is that the Hebrew word echad in the shema of Deuteronomy 6:4 means, not a simple "one", but rather a "compound unity" of one, a "togetherness". Those who teach this will often also teach than there is a different word for a "simple" one, yachid, so that the absence of this word in Deuteronomy 6:4 is, apparently to them, significant.

First, it should be noted that when one learns the Hebrew numbers, it is echad, not yachid, that is the Hebrew for the number "one": echad is one, shenayim is two, shalosh is three, arba is four, etc. Any Hebrew grammar book, whether of Biblical or modern Hebrew, would demonstrate that echad, not yachid, is the everyday Hebrew word for the numeral "one".

And when one looks in the Tanakh itself at the frequency and usage of the two words - echad and yachid - it is very quickly and easily seen that echad, not yachid, is in fact the standard Hebrew word for a simple one. Echad is used over 900 times in the Hebrew Bible, making it the most frequently used adjective in the Tanakh. Here are some examples of its usage where the word "one" is translated from echad: "one place" (Gen. 1:9); "one man" (Gen. 42:13); "one law" (Ex. 12:49); "one side" (Ex. 25:12); "one ewe lamb" (Lev. 14:10); "one of his brethren" (Lev. 25:48); "one rod" (Num. 17:3); "one soul" (Num. 31:28); "one of these cities" (Deut. 4:42); "one way" (Deut. 28:7); "one ephah" (1 Sam. 1:24); "one went out into the field" (11 Kings 4:39); "one shepherd" (Ezek. 37:24); "one basket" (Jer. 24:2); "one [thing]" (Ps. 27:4); "Two are better than one" (Ecc. 4:9); "one day or two" (Ezra 10:13).

Sometimes it is simply part of a number, like "eleven" (echad + 'asar, one plus ten), in , for example Genesis 32:22. Sometimes it is as well translated by an indefinite article (a[n]): "a new cart" (1 Sam. 6:7); "a juniper tree" (1 Kings 19:4,5); "a book" (Jer. 51:60).

Perhaps most importantly, echad clearly has the meaning of single, alone, ONLY one, or JUST one, the ideal of a limit of one (Num. 10:4; Josh. 17:14; Esth. 4:11; Isa. 51:2). In Deuteronomy 17:6, for example, it really isn't precise English to translate echad merely as "one". For if the "one" witness referred to is the second of the third witness, then that one witness is enough to convict the hypothetical person of murder. The meaning is that a person must not be put to death of the evidence of only one witness (which is the way the NRSV translates it). Echad means "one" and ONLY one.

Some make the argument that because echad is used in passages such as Gen. 1:5 (evening and morning were "day one [echad]", or "first day"), Gen. 2:24 (a husband and wife shall be "one" flesh) and Ezek. 37:17 (two sticks are to become "one" stick), echad is therefore meant to be understood as some kind of a compound unity. To begin with, such examples make up but a very small minority of the uses of echad, the vast majority being of the variety listed above. It is improper exegesis to define a word on the basis of a small percentage of its usage. But even this extreme minority of usage does not mean that echad actually has a different meaning than a simply one in these passages. In Gen. 1:5, "day" is the word that has "parts" to it (i.e., "evening" and "morning" make up the day), not echad. In Gen. 2:24, "flesh" acts as the collective noun (what the man and the woman as comprise together). [12] The key factor in all such passages - a factor missing from Deut. 6:4 - is that two or more "parts" are mentioned, such that the reader can immediately discern that there is some kind of "coming together" of the people or things mentioned, usually for just one purpose or goal. Echad, in fact, must maintain its meaning of "just one" for these expressions to convey their intended sense. To make our point clear: Deut. 6:4 does not say, "YHWH our God, though three (or two or whatever plural number you like), is one." There is no hint of "coming together" here. The verse says that YHWH our God is plainly, simply, one.

Once again, scholarship is in agreement. The Brown-Driver-Briggs-Gesenius Lexicon, the standard Hebrew lexicon of the Bible used in seminaries, list eight ways echad is used - e.g. meaning "each/every," or "a certain," or "only," etc. - but there is no mention or hint in the entire echad article that echad ever means any kind of compound unity. [13] And the "echad" article in the Theological Dictionary of the Old Testament also nowhere teaches that echad implies a compound unity. It says that Deuteronomy 6:4 is essentially saying that YHWH is the one and only God for Israel (Vol. I p. 196).

Yachid, on the other hand, is a very rarely used word in the Tanakh, and it is employed in a special sense when it is used. It is found a grand total of 12 times in the entire Tanakh, three of those times in the same passage (Gen.22, referring to Isaac as Abraham's "only" son), so virtually any argument based on its absence from a Bible text is necessarily weak. Its meaning is restricted to a unique, priceless possession, whether a person or thing (Isaac in Gen. 22:2, 12, 16; one's soul - lit. "only one" - in Ps. 22:20(21), 35:17); or to solitary, desolate, isolated or lonely people (Ps. 25:16, 68:6(7)). There is a "neediness" seen in all that yachid applies to in the Tanakh. YHWH our God is not dependent on anyone. Based on Biblical usage, therefore, it would be entirely inappropriate to use yachid as an adjective for God for any reason.
Conclusion

In conclusion, neither the word Elohim nor the word echad supports the notion of a plurality in God. The plural form Elohim when used of God does not have to mean a plural entity. In Hebrew, plural forms can be singular in meaning. this is sometimes referred to as a plural of majesty or plural of rank. The very term elohim is used of single, foreign gods and of the Messiah. But YHWH is, in fact, always referred to by grammatically singular forms and used with verbs in the singular (even when the plural form Elohim is the subject). Finally, the Greek Old Testament, sometimes quoted in the New Testament, always translates the term for God - whether the Hebrew word is singular or plural - in the singular Greek form.

Echad, rather than being any kind of support for a plural God, teaches the opposite. It means "one" and "only one." God is one.
Final Word

It seems clear that the sole reason for these arguments attempting to teach a plural God from the Tanakh is a desire among many Christians and Christian originated Messianics to find Old Testament substantiation for the concept of the Trinity or some other form of plural God. But of course, that is no way to proceed in a Bible study. We must accept the definitions which the words reveal about themselves and how they are used in the Bible text, not what we would like them to mean. May God help us to accept what the Scripture has to say about who the true God is. "Yahweh our God is one single Person" (cp. Paul in Gal. 3:20: "God is only One Person," Amplified Version).

[1] Some Christians believe that God consists of the Father and Son only, and that the Holy Spirit is essentially God's active power, not a third Person.

[2] E.g., Gen. 23:1: Sarah's "life"

[3] E.g., Gen. 43:31: Joseph's "face"

[4] This is another word, like Elohim, which is a title denoting someone superior in rank. See "plurality of majesty" discussion below.

[5] The fact that Ps. 45:6(7) is viewed as messianic does not change the point: The Messiah is just one individual and yet is given the title of the plural (in form) Elohim. Some will use this verse, taken out of context, as "proof" that Yeshua Messiah is God because the term elohim (god) is applied to him. However, elohim can also mean rulers, judges, divine ones, angels, gods, god, goddess, godlike one, etc. There is also a legitimate question regarding the verse's correct translation. The JPS Tanakh renders the verse as:

Psalm 45:7
7 Your divine throne is everlasting; your royal scepter is a scepter of equity.

The Stone Edition of the Tanakh renders it as:

Psalm 45:7
7 Your throne is from God, it is forever and ever, [for] the scepter of fairness is the scepter of your kingdom.

Nevertheless, as with virtually all verses that are incorrectly used as "proof" of Yeshua's deity, when the context is considered, it is proven that even if elohim is applied to Messiah in verse 6 (7 in JPS and Stone editions), he is still not "God." The very next verse shows this.

Psalm 45:7
7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

Therefore, since God has anointed the one spoken of in verse 6, the one in verse 6 is obviously NOT God, but is god (little g), godlike, or a ruler, all of which perfectly describe the MAN, Yeshua the Messiah. Common sense dictates the one anointing and one being anointed are not the same entity.

[6] Two rather emphatic examples: 1 Kings 18:39 and 2 Sam. 7:28. The relevant part of the former reads, "YHWH, He is God [Elohim]; YHWH, He is God." The key portion of the latter reads, very literally, "Lord [adonay] YHWH, You [sing], He, [is] the God [Elohim]."

[7] God is translated from El in the following passages: Gen. 17:1, Ex. 34:6, Josh. 3:10, Isa. 5:16 and Ps. 29:3. From Eloah: Deut. 32:15, Neh. 9:17, Job 4:9 (used more often than Elohim in Job) and Ps. 114:7.

[8] E.g., Dan. 2:28, Ezra 5:2.

[9] Gen. 1:26 says, "Let us make..." where God is perhaps either referring to Himself in the plural (possibly another form of plural of majesty), or is condescending to His heavenly host (i.e., someone besides Elohim, reflecting the normal concept of any first person plural), bringing them into the creative act. "Make," of course, is plural in its Hebrew form. In the next verse, where Elohim actually performs the action, the verb for "made" is back to its singular form.

[10] The Hebrew word order may be relevant here as well. In Hebrew prose, the usual word order is that the verb precedes the noun. In Gen. 1:1, therefore, before the Hebrew reader even gets to the word Elohim, he or she reads "bara" ("created"), the third person masculine singular form, immediately telling him or her that the acting subject is singular in reality.

[11] See Heb. 1:6 for example, where a version of the LXX of Deut. 32:43 is quoted. The passage is quite different from the Hebrew text we now have and use.

[12] There wouldn't be much point in saying, "The two shall be two fleshes." The unity intended is obviously that of purpose and mind. And "one" here still means just one.

[13] Interestingly, there are five instances where echad is used in the plural (echadim):Gen. 27:44, 29:20; Ezek. 37:17; and Dan. 11:20. Echadim is usually translated few, but one may be the best translation in Gen. 11:1 and Ezek. 37:17 (so that they may become one in your hand). In those passages, echadim is used with plural nouns, and perhaps here has the sense of a compound. All the more remarkable, then, that Deut. 6:4 - which has the plural form Elohim - has echad in its singular form. This may be yet another indicator that Deut. 6:4 quite strongly emphasizes the simple oneness of God.


The spirit of God is also part of God, correct? If i'm not mistaken, there are jewish rabbis who mention that there are three persons in ONE God.

We don't know what God is, except for the fact that He is one.

We know some things He is not, like physical.

So God is not build up of a body and a spirit, He is not a man, He is just Y-H-W-H.


If you were to examine the suffering servant of isaiah 53, it's not speaking of israel.

Read here who the suffering servant in Isaiah 53 is:
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71984



Eliyahu, light unto the nations

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

wincam
June 14th, 2013, 12:08 PM
sure only Y-H-W-H is God = CHRIST is Y-H-W-H = God = salvation is in no one else - see my future topic - wincam

Elia
June 16th, 2013, 07:33 AM
sure only Y-H-W-H is God = CHRIST is Y-H-W-H = God = salvation is in no one else - see my future topic - wincam

Bs'd

It's hard for me to see your future topic, because I cannot look into the future, I'm not a prophet, unfortunately.

But JC is not Y-H-W-H:

If anybody says JC is the same as Y-H-W-H then you are stuck with the fact that Y-H-W-H is his own son and at the same time his own father.



Then you are stuck with the fact that when JC prays to his father, Y-H-W-H is praying to himself.



Luke 22:41-42: “and He knelt down and began to pray, saying, "Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done."

So here Y-H-W-H has a different will than himself???


Even in heaven JC is subjected to the Father, according to Corinthians 15:28, Matthew 20:23, Fillipens 2:9, and others.

So Y-H-W-H is subjected to himself???



When JC was hanging at the cross, he cried out: “My God, my God, why did you forsake me?” Matthew 27:46

So Y-H-W-H forsook himself???



Collossians 3:1; “set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God.”

Y-H-W-H is sitting at his own right hand???



Y-H-W-H died at the cross, slaughtered by his own creatures?

If so, who resurrected him?



Remember there is only one God: Y-H-W-H who IS one.



Eliyahu, light unto the nations

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

Disciple_of_christ
June 16th, 2013, 11:58 AM
Well, first you have brought up a good point and i totally agree with you that God sends angels to his do his will, but notice the difference. In the same passage that you quoted on Sodom and Gomorrah, it says "I will come down.." not "WE will come down.." What you just said does not take away the fact that it says "Then God (elohim = gods) said 'Let US make man in OUR image.." Is he talking about the angels image or about his own image.

You said that God used angels to create the universe, but show one verse where angels are shown to be able to create. On the contrary, Job 38:6-7 says "6 To what were its foundations fastened? Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?" It does not say that they created. More importantly, Gen. 1:2 "2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters." The Spirit (Ru-ach) of God was present and is the agent of creating. Job 33:4 "The Spirit of God has made me,And the breath of the Almighty gives me life." Who made man, was it the angels or was it the spirit of God? If you say angels, you are contradicting this verse.

We as Christians don't believe that God is three persons who are all equal, that is incorrect. We believe that God is made of Father, son, holy spirit working as one, each with their own characteristics.

Let me explain it further, the word "Image" comes from the sense of making an idol to represent a god in ancient near east. The God of the Hebrews has no physical form, unlike all other gods made of stone and wood. This was used to describe Adam being made in the invisible image of God. My guess is that it's plural because they were aware of three distinct persons. The gods of other nations were not ONE. They each had their own personality, their own powers, and their own goals. For example, there could be a god which made the waters, but he cannot control or make fire, the god of fire can make fire, but did not make earth, and so on. God of the Hebrews could do everything, but i think that he is described as plural because each god had a specific role in the ONE supreme God.

God the father - The creator of all things and that by which all things come from

The son - the firstborn heir to the things that God, the father has given him, he is originally not a man, he later manifested himself as a man.

The Spirit - the agent of creation, he is in charge of creating and anointing people for a specific purpose given by God

These all can be described as gods if you will, but when they are working together, they become ONE God, the supreme being of the universe. If you don't believe me, just look at the comparison in Gen. 2:23 "23 And Adam said:

“This is now bone of my bones
And flesh of my flesh;
She shall be called Woman,
Because she was taken out of Man.”
24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh." The word one here is translated as "Echad", but based on the context, it does not literally mean one flesh, body or "Basar." It is speaking of the union between two separate beings working as one.

wincam
June 16th, 2013, 03:06 PM
Bs'd

It's hard for me to see your future topic, because I cannot look into the future, I'm not a prophet, unfortunately.

But JC is not Y-H-W-H:

If anybody says JC is the same as Y-H-W-H then you are stuck with the fact that Y-H-W-H is his own son and at the same time his own father.



Then you are stuck with the fact that when JC prays to his father, Y-H-W-H is praying to himself.



Luke 22:41-42: “and He knelt down and began to pray, saying, "Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done."

So here Y-H-W-H has a different will than himself???


Even in heaven JC is subjected to the Father, according to Corinthians 15:28, Matthew 20:23, Fillipens 2:9, and others.

So Y-H-W-H is subjected to himself???



When JC was hanging at the cross, he cried out: “My God, my God, why did you forsake me?” Matthew 27:46

So Y-H-W-H forsook himself???



Collossians 3:1; “set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God.”

Y-H-W-H is sitting at his own right hand???



Y-H-W-H died at the cross, slaughtered by his own creatures?

If so, who resurrected him?



Remember there is only one God: Y-H-W-H who IS one.



Eliyahu, light unto the nations

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

instead of all this surplus and superfluous stuff ad infinitum lets just keep it short and sweet and neat - the I AM that was before Abraham[Jn.8:58] is the same I AM of Moses and the burning bush[Ex.3:14] and is the I AM that came unto His own and they knew Him not[Jn.1:11] - btw the humanity in us and Jesus prays to the divinity in God - human father and son are both human,so also with divinity - wincam

Elia
June 16th, 2013, 09:40 PM
instead of all this surplus and superfluous stuff ad infinitum lets just keep it short and sweet and neat - the I AM that was before Abraham[Jn.8:58] is the same I AM of Moses and the burning bush[Ex.3:14] and is the I AM that came unto His own and they knew Him not[Jn.1:11] - btw the humanity in us and Jesus prays to the divinity in God - human father and son are both human,so also with divinity - wincam

Bs'd

Let's keep this short and simple.

You have a divine "God the Father", and a divine "god the son", that means that you have TWO (2) gods.

The Bible teaches there is only ONE (1) God, and not two.

Therefore you are a polytheist and an idol worshiper.



Eliyahu, light unto the nations

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

wincam
June 17th, 2013, 03:50 AM
Bs'd

Let's keep this short and simple.

You have a divine "God the Father", and a divine "god the son", that means that you have TWO (2) gods.

The Bible teaches there is only ONE (1) God, and not two.

Therefore you are a polytheist and an idol worshiper.



Eliyahu, light unto the nations

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

you misconstrue and misunderstand 'kinds' = in human kind we have many humans but in God/divinity kind we have three in one kind,all three equally God just as in humankind many humans but all equally human - 'the Father and I are one and the same God' - wincam

Elia
June 17th, 2013, 09:40 PM
you misconstrue and misunderstand 'kinds' = in human kind we have many humans but in God/divinity kind we have three in one kind,all three equally God just as in humankind many humans but all equally human - 'the Father and I are one and the same God' - wincam

Bs'd

That means again, that according to you God is His own son, and at the same time His own father.

A totally ridiculous concept which is nowhere to be found in the Tanach, only in the idolatrous NT.

And "I and the father" are NOT one, because 1 + 1 = 2, and not 1.

I know that the Christians cannot count to two anymore when it comes to religion, however, the fact of the matter is and remains that 1 + 1 = 2, and NOT 1.

Really.




שמע ישראל י-ה-ו-ה אלהנו י-ה-ו-ה אחד

Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE.

And you shall love Y-H-W-H your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.
And these words which I command you this day shall be upon your heart;
and you shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise.
And you shall bind them as a sign upon your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.
And you shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.
Deut 6:4-9

Y-H-W-H, the one and only God who is one.

Beside Him there is no God, no Buddha, no JC, no David Koresh; NOBODY.

Whoever worships anything or anybody else than Y-H-W-H is an IDOL WORSHIPER.



Eliyahu, light unto the nations

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

wincam
June 18th, 2013, 04:30 AM
Bs'd

That means again, that according to you God is His own son, and at the same time His own father.

A totally ridiculous concept which is nowhere to be found in the Tanach, only in the idolatrous NT.

And "I and the father" are NOT one, because 1 + 1 = 2, and not 1.

I know that the Christians cannot count to two anymore when it comes to religion, however, the fact of the matter is and remains that 1 + 1 = 2, and NOT 1.

Really.




שמע ישראל י-ה-ו-ה אלהנו י-ה-ו-ה אחד

Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE.

And you shall love Y-H-W-H your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.
And these words which I command you this day shall be upon your heart;
and you shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise.
And you shall bind them as a sign upon your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.
And you shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.
Deut 6:4-9

Y-H-W-H, the one and only God who is one.

Beside Him there is no God, no Buddha, no JC, no David Koresh; NOBODY.

Whoever worships anything or anybody else than Y-H-W-H is an IDOL WORSHIPER.



Eliyahu, light unto the nations

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

absolutely - to Him every knee shall and must bow and every tongue shall and must confess that Jesus Christ as Y-H-W-H is King of Kings and Lord of Lords - even Satan and the devils know this but it seems not some humans and here we have the original rebellion of the angels 'we will not serve' an incarnate Y-H-W-H etc - wincam

Elia
June 27th, 2013, 10:48 AM
absolutely - to Him every knee shall and must bow and every tongue shall and must confess that Jesus Christ as Y-H-W-H is King of Kings and Lord of Lords

Bs'd

Here is why it is impossible that JC = Y-H-W-H:


The Tanach, for the Christians the OT, teaches very clearly that there is only ONE God, and that is Y-H-W-H.

People who want to look that over in detail can look here: https://sites.google.com/site/777mountzion/god-of-israel

So if anybody wants to say that JC was God, or divine, than he has no choice than to say that JC was Y-H-W-H, because there simply is no other God than Y-H-W-H.

But then you encounter the following problems:

If anybody says JC is the same as Y-H-W-H then you are stuck with the fact that Y-H-W-H is his own son and at the same time his own father.


Then you are stuck with the fact that when JC prays to his father, Y-H-W-H is praying to himself.


Luke 22:41-42: “and He knelt down and began to pray, saying, "Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done."

So here Y-H-W-H has a different will than himself???


Even in heaven JC is subjected to the Father, according to Corinthians 15:28, Matthew 20:23, Fillipens 2:9, and others.

So Y-H-W-H is subjected to himself???


When JC was hanging at the cross, he cried out: “My God, my God, why did you forsake me?” Matthew 27:46

So Y-H-W-H forsook himself???


Collossians 3:1; “set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God.”

Y-H-W-H is sitting at his own right hand???


Y-H-W-H died at the cross, slaughtered by his own creatures?

If so, who resurrected him?


Remember there is only one God: Y-H-W-H who IS one.

By now it should be clear to everybody that it is IMPOSSIBLE that JC was or is God.

And from that we learn that Christians who worship JC are idol worshipers.

For more information why JC was not God and not the messiah, look here: http://MountZion.notlong.com




Eliyahu, light unto the nations

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

Elia
July 2nd, 2013, 10:09 PM
Bs'd

Here is why it is impossible that JC = Y-H-W-H:


The Tanach, for the Christians the OT, teaches very clearly that there is only ONE God, and that is Y-H-W-H.

People who want to look that over in detail can look here: https://sites.google.com/site/777mountzion/god-of-israel

So if anybody wants to say that JC was God, or divine, than he has no choice than to say that JC was Y-H-W-H, because there simply is no other God than Y-H-W-H.

But then you encounter the following problems:

If anybody says JC is the same as Y-H-W-H then you are stuck with the fact that Y-H-W-H is his own son and at the same time his own father.


Then you are stuck with the fact that when JC prays to his father, Y-H-W-H is praying to himself.


Luke 22:41-42: “and He knelt down and began to pray, saying, "Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done."

So here Y-H-W-H has a different will than himself???


Even in heaven JC is subjected to the Father, according to Corinthians 15:28, Matthew 20:23, Fillipens 2:9, and others.

So Y-H-W-H is subjected to himself???


When JC was hanging at the cross, he cried out: “My God, my God, why did you forsake me?” Matthew 27:46

So Y-H-W-H forsook himself???


Collossians 3:1; “set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God.”

Y-H-W-H is sitting at his own right hand???


Y-H-W-H died at the cross, slaughtered by his own creatures?

If so, who resurrected him?


Remember there is only one God: Y-H-W-H who IS one.

By now it should be clear to everybody that it is IMPOSSIBLE that JC was or is God.

And from that we learn that Christians who worship JC are idol worshipers.

For more information why JC was not God and not the messiah, look here: http://MountZion.notlong.com


Bs'd

Why did nobody ever dispute the above? No arguments?

Then accept the fact that JC was a false god.

There is no way around it.




Eliyahu, light unto the nations

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

Elia
July 7th, 2013, 09:31 PM
Bs'd

The whole Bible, both Tanach and NT, teach that there is only ONE God.

So worshipping a whole divine family is IDOLATRY!

Because 1 + 1 = 2, and not 1.

A God the Father and a "god the son" is TWO (2) gods, and not one.


And therefore Christianity is idolatry.



Eliyahu, light unto the nations

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

Elia
July 9th, 2013, 09:59 PM
Bs'd


The Tanach, for the Christians the OT, teaches very clearly that there is only ONE God, and that is Y-H-W-H.

People who want to look that over in detail can look here: https://sites.google.com/site/777mountzion/god-of-israel

So if anybody wants to say that JC was God, or divine, than he has no choice than to say that JC was Y-H-W-H, because there simply is no other God than Y-H-W-H.

But then you encounter the following problems:

If anybody says JC is the same as Y-H-W-H then you are stuck with the fact that Y-H-W-H is his own son and at the same time his own father.


Then you are stuck with the fact that when JC prays to his father, Y-H-W-H is praying to himself.


Luke 22:41-42: “and He knelt down and began to pray, saying, "Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done."

So here Y-H-W-H has a different will than himself???


Even in heaven JC is subjected to the Father, according to Corinthians 15:28, Matthew 20:23, Fillipens 2:9, and others.

So Y-H-W-H is subjected to himself???


When JC was hanging at the cross, he cried out: “My God, my God, why did you forsake me?” Matthew 27:46

So Y-H-W-H forsook himself???


Collossians 3:1; “set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God.”

Y-H-W-H is sitting at his own right hand???


Y-H-W-H died at the cross, slaughtered by his own creatures?

If so, who resurrected him?


Remember there is only one God: Y-H-W-H who IS one.

By now it should be clear to everybody that it is IMPOSSIBLE that JC was or is God.

And from that we learn that Christians who worship JC are idol worshipers.

For more information why JC was not God and not the messiah, look here: http://MountZion.notlong.com




Eliyahu, light unto the nations

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

Elia
July 10th, 2013, 10:13 PM
Bs'd

Why is it that Christians cannot accept the simple BIBLICAL facts that only Y-H-W-H is God, and that there is no God besides Him?

Why is it that Christians cannot accept the simple BIBLICAL fact that Y-H-W-H is ONE?





שמע ישראל י-ה-ו-ה אלהנו י-ה-ו-ה אחד

Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE.

And you shall love Y-H-W-H your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.
And these words which I command you this day shall be upon your heart;
and you shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise.
And you shall bind them as a sign upon your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.
And you shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.
Deut 6:4-9

Y-H-W-H, the one and only God who is one.

Beside Him there is no God, no Buddha, no JC, no David Koresh; NOBODY.

Whoever worships anything or anybody else than Y-H-W-H is an IDOL WORSHIPER.



Deuteronomy 4:35 “You were shown these things so that you might know that Y-H-W-H is God; besides him there is no other.”

Deuteronomy 4:39 “Acknowledge and take to heart this day that Y-H-W-H is God in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other.”

II Samuel 7:22 “How great you are, O Sovereign Y-H-W-H! There is no one like you, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.”

I Kings 8:60 “so that all the peoples of the earth may know that Y-H-W-H is God and that there is no other.”

I Chronicles 17:20 “There is no one like you, O Y-H-W-H, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.”

II Chronicles 6:14 “O Y-H-W-H, God of Israel, there is no God like you in heaven or on earth.”

Nehemiah 9:6 “You alone are Y-H-W-H.”

Isaiah 45:21-23 “You are my witnesses," declares Y-H-W-H, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me."

Isaiah 44:6 “This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.”

Isaiah 45:5-6 “I am Y-H-W-H , and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me, so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides me."

Isaiah 45:21-23 “Declare what is to be, present it- let them take counsel together. Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past? Was it not I, Y-H-W-H? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me. Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.”

Joel 2:27 “Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am Y-H-W-H your God, and that there is no other;”



Exodus 20:1-3 “And God spoke all these words: "I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME.”




In the service of Y-H-W-H,


Eliyahu, light unto the nations

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

Elia
July 20th, 2013, 10:37 PM
absolutely - to Him every knee shall and must bow and every tongue shall and must confess that Jesus Christ as Y-H-W-H is King of Kings and Lord of Lords -

Bs'd

The Tanach, for the Christians the OT, teaches very clearly that there is only ONE God, and that is Y-H-W-H.

People who want to look that over in detail can look here: https://sites.google.com/site/777mountzion/god-of-israel

So if anybody wants to say that JC was God, or divine, than he has no choice than to say that JC was Y-H-W-H, because there simply is no other God than Y-H-W-H.

But then you encounter the following problems:

If anybody says JC is the same as Y-H-W-H then you are stuck with the fact that Y-H-W-H is his own son and at the same time his own father.


Then you are stuck with the fact that when JC prays to his father, Y-H-W-H is praying to himself.


Luke 22:41-42: “and He knelt down and began to pray, saying, "Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done."

So here Y-H-W-H has a different will than himself???


Even in heaven JC is subjected to the Father, according to Corinthians 15:28, Matthew 20:23, Fillipens 2:9, and others.

So Y-H-W-H is subjected to himself???


When JC was hanging at the cross, he cried out: “My God, my God, why did you forsake me?” Matthew 27:46

So Y-H-W-H forsook himself???


Collossians 3:1; “set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God.”

Y-H-W-H is sitting at his own right hand???


Y-H-W-H died at the cross, slaughtered by his own creatures?

If so, who resurrected him?


Remember there is only one God: Y-H-W-H who IS one.

By now it should be clear to everybody that it is IMPOSSIBLE that JC was or is God.

And from that we learn that Christians who worship JC are idol worshipers.

For more information why JC was not God and not the messiah, look here: http://MountZion.notlong.com



In the service of Y-H-W-H,


Eliyahu, light unto the nations

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

Apple7
July 22nd, 2013, 08:11 PM
that 1 + 1 = 2, and NOT 1.



What about 1 = 1 = 1

Refute that...

Elia
July 22nd, 2013, 09:27 PM
What about 1 = 1 = 1

Refute that...

Bs'd

If you resort to these type of arguments, then no refutation is necessary.


A "God the Father" and a "god the son" is TWO (2) gods, and not one.

Because 1 + 1 = 2.

And that makes Christianity polytheism, and with that idolatry.




In the service of Y-H-W-H,


Eliyahu, light unto the nations

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

Elia
January 25th, 2014, 11:25 AM
What about 1 = 1 = 1

Refute that...

Bs'd

The most crazy argument I ever heard in my life....

Apple7
January 26th, 2014, 01:18 PM
A "God the Father" and a "god the son" is TWO (2) gods, and not one.

Because 1 + 1 = 2.




God is not the result of counted things.

Try again...

Omniskeptical
January 26th, 2014, 01:57 PM
Bs’d

Who is the God of Israel? The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?

Christianity is very confused about this. A confusion also caused by bad Bible translations. In almost all translations the four lettered name of God, Y-H-W-H, which appears in the Hebrew Bible almost 7000 times, is not mentioned, but replaced by "the LORD".

But here are some Biblical texts which point out WHO is the God of Israel. In these verses the letters of the name of God are written, like in the original Hebrew.


Exodus 29:46 “They will know that I am Y-H-W-H their God, who brought them out of Egypt so that I might dwell among them. I am Y-H-W-H their God.”

Numbers 15:41 “I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of Egypt to be your God. I am Y-H-W-H your God.”

Deuteronomy 10:20-21 “Fear Y-H-W-H your God and serve him. Hold fast to him and take your oaths in his name. He is your praise; he is your God, who performed for you those great and awesome wonders you saw with your own eyes.”

Joshua 24:18 “We too will serve Y-H-W-H , because he is our God.”

II Samuel 22:32 “For who is God besides Y-H-W-H ?”

I Chronicles 16:14 “He is Y-H-W-H our God; his judgments are in all the earth”

II Chronicles 13:10 “As for us, Y-H-W-H is our God, and we have not forsaken him”

Psalm 31:14 “But I trust in you, O Y-H-W-H; I say, "You are my God.”

Psalm 89:6 “For who in the skies above can compare with Y-H-W-H? Who is like Y-H-W-H among the heavenly beings?”

Psalm 91:2 “I will say of Y-H-W-H , "He is my refuge and my fortress, my God, in whom I trust.”

Psalm 100:3 “Know that Y-H-W-H is God. It is he who made us.”

Psalm 105:7 “He is Y-H-W-H our God; his judgments are in all the earth;”

Psalm 118:27 “Y-H-W-H is God, and he has made his light shine upon us.”

Psalm 140:6 “O Y-H-W-H, I say to you, "You are my God”

Isaiah 25:1 “O Y-H-W-H, you are my God.”

Isaiah 41:13 “For I am Y-H-W-H , your God;”

Isaiah 43:3 “For I am Y-H-W-H , your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior;”

Isaiah 51:15 “For I am Y-H-W-H your God, who churns up the sea so that its waves roar- Y-H-W-H Almighty is his name”

Jeremiah 3:22-23 “Yes, we will come to you, for you are Y-H-W-H our God”

Jeremiah 10:10 “But Y-H-W-H is the true God; he is the living God, the eternal King.;”

Jeremiah 31:18 “Restore me, and I will return, because you are Y-H-W-H my God.”

Habakkuk 1:12 “O Y-H-W-H, are you not from everlasting? My God, my Holy One, we will not die.”



And is there, except for this God Y-H-W-H, any other god?



Deuteronomy 4:35 “You were shown these things so that you might know that Y-H-W-H is God; besides him there is no other.”

Deuteronomy 4:39 “Acknowledge and take to heart this day that Y-H-W-H is God in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other.”

II Samuel 7:22 “How great you are, O Sovereign Y-H-W-H! There is no one like you, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.”

I Kings 8:60 “so that all the peoples of the earth may know that Y-H-W-H is God and that there is no other.”

I Chronicles 17:20 “There is no one like you, O Y-H-W-H, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.”

II Chronicles 6:14 “O Y-H-W-H, God of Israel, there is no God like you in heaven or on earth.”

Nehemiah 9:6 “You alone are Y-H-W-H.”

Isaiah 45:21-23 “You are my witnesses," declares Y-H-W-H, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me."

Isaiah 44:6 “This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.”

Isaiah 45:5-6 “I am Y-H-W-H , and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me, so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides me."

Isaiah 45:21-23 “Declare what is to be, present it- let them take counsel together. Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past? Was it not I, Y-H-W-H? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me. Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.”

Joel 2:27 “Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am Y-H-W-H your God, and that there is no other;”



Exodus 20:1-3 “And God spoke all these words: "I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME.”



Eliyahu, light unto the nations


"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5You have only proven that there is one God called YHWH, but you have not disproven the other supernatural beings, ie dieties, in the universe.

Omniskeptical
January 26th, 2014, 01:59 PM
Whoever worships anything or anybody else than Y-H-W-H is an IDOL WORSHIPER. Be careful not to bow to any rabbis then. You might idolize them.

Elia
January 26th, 2014, 10:56 PM
You have only proven that there is one God called YHWH, but you have not disproven the other supernatural beings, ie dieties, in the universe.

Bs'd

I'll disprove that with the following:


Deuteronomy 4:35 “You were shown these things so that you might know that Y-H-W-H is God; besides him there is no other.”

Deuteronomy 4:39 “Acknowledge and take to heart this day that Y-H-W-H is God in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other.”

II Samuel 7:22 “How great you are, O Sovereign Y-H-W-H! There is no one like you, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.”

I Kings 8:60 “so that all the peoples of the earth may know that Y-H-W-H is God and that there is no other.”

I Chronicles 17:20 “There is no one like you, O Y-H-W-H, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.”

II Chronicles 6:14 “O Y-H-W-H, God of Israel, there is no God like you in heaven or on earth.”

Nehemiah 9:6 “You alone are Y-H-W-H.”

Isaiah 45:21-23 “You are my witnesses," declares Y-H-W-H, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me."

Isaiah 44:6 “This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.”

Isaiah 45:5-6 “I am Y-H-W-H , and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me, so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides me."

Isaiah 45:21-23 “Declare what is to be, present it- let them take counsel together. Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past? Was it not I, Y-H-W-H? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me. Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.”

Joel 2:27 “Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am Y-H-W-H your God, and that there is no other;”



Exodus 20:1-3 “And God spoke all these words: "I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME.” [/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

Elia
January 26th, 2014, 10:58 PM
God is not the result of counted things.

Try again...



שמע ישראל י-ה-ו-ה אלהנו י-ה-ו-ה אחד

Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE.

And you shall love Y-H-W-H your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.
And these words which I command you this day shall be upon your heart;
and you shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise.
And you shall bind them as a sign upon your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.
And you shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.
Deut 6:4-9

Y-H-W-H, the one and only God who is one.

Beside Him there is no God, no Buddha, no JC, no David Koresh; NOBODY.

Whoever worships anything or anybody else than Y-H-W-H is an IDOL WORSHIPER.




In the service of Y-H-W-H,


Eliyahu, light unto the nations

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

Jerry Shugart
January 27th, 2014, 03:40 PM
[
Whoever worships anything or anybody else than Y-H-W-H is an IDOL WORSHIPER.

Those who deny the fact that the angel of His presence or the angel of God is not God puts their preconceived ideas above what the OT Scriptures teach. Here we see a passage in regard to the angel of God and He calls Himself a "God":


"And the angel of God spake unto me in a dream, saying, Jacob: And I said, Here am I. And he said, Lift up now thine eyes, and see, all the rams which leap upon the cattle are ringstraked, speckled, and grisled: for I have seen all that Laban doeth unto thee. I am the God of Bethel, where thou anointedst the pillar, and where thou vowedst a vow unto me: now arise, get thee out from this land, and return unto the land of thy kindred" (Gen.31:11-13).

Pierac
January 27th, 2014, 10:13 PM
Those who deny the fact that the angel of His presence or the angel of God is not God puts their preconceived ideas above what the OT Scriptures teach. Here we see a passage in regard to the angel of God and He calls Himself a "God":


"And the angel of God spake unto me in a dream, saying, Jacob: And I said, Here am I. And he said, Lift up now thine eyes, and see, all the rams which leap upon the cattle are ringstraked, speckled, and grisled: for I have seen all that Laban doeth unto thee. I am the God of Bethel, where thou anointedst the pillar, and where thou vowedst a vow unto me: now arise, get thee out from this land, and return unto the land of thy kindred" (Gen.31:11-13).

Yea... Moses said he was God too... so what's your point?

Moses summons all of Israel and says to them, "You have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt to Pharaoh and all his servants and all his land; the great trials which your eyes have seen, those great signs and wonders" (v.2-3).
Moses continues to recite for the people all that God has done for them. But notice that in verse 6, while still reciting all God's wonders, Moses suddenly changes to the first person and says, "You have not eaten bread, nor have you drunk wine or strong drink, in order that you might know that I am the LORD your God." It is obvious that God himself is not personally speaking to the people. Moses is preaching. But Moses as the agent of God can speak as though he is the Lord himself. What is happening here? God is speaking through His man, His appointed representative. Therefore, he can move from speaking in the third person, “the LORD did this and that for you" to the first person: "I am the LORD your God doing this and that." :think:

Who gave the Law to Man Jerry Shugart?

Act 7:53 you who received the law as ordained by angels, and yet did not keep it."

Gal 3:19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.

Heb 2:2 For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty,

Angels... not a Angel :think:

What your seeing is the Hebraic concept of Agency

It's a common feature of the Hebrew Bible... the concept (some even call it the “law” ) of Jewish agency. All Old Testament scholars and commentators recognize that in Jewish custom whenever a superior commissioned an agent to act on his behalf, the agent was regarded as the person himself. This is well expressed in the Encyclopedia of the Jewish religion.

Thus in Hebrew custom whenever an agent was sent to act for his master it was as though that lord himself was acting and speaking. An equivalent in our culture to the Jewish custom of agency would be one who is authorized to act as Power of Attorney, or more strongly one who is given Enduring Power of Attorney. Such an agent has virtually unlimited powers to act on behalf of the one who appointed him.


Knowing this principle helps us with other apparent difficulties, even seeming contradictions through the Scriptures. Lets look at one New Testament example. The story that has created a problem to many minds is the one concerning the healing of the Centurion’s servant.

In Matthew's account (Matt 8:5-13), it is the Centurion himself who comes to Jesus and begs him to heal his servant. The Centurion himself says, "Lord, my servant is lying paralyzed at home, suffering great pain" (v.6).

However, the parallel account in Luke (Luke 7:1-10) states that the Centurion did not personally go and speak to Jesus. He actually sent or commissioned as his agents “some Jewish elders.” These Jewish elders pleaded with Jesus on behalf of the Centurion saying, "He is worthy for you to grant this to him; for he loves our nation, and it was he who built us our synagogue" (v.4-5)

So who actually went to Jesus here? Did these gospel writers get confused? Are the detractors perhaps right to say that the Bible is full of errors and contradictions? Not at all! The difficulty is cleared up when we understand the Hebrew mind behind these Scriptures. The answer to who actually stood before Jesus is the elders. They had been sent by the Centurion. Matthew in typical Hebrew idiom has the Centurion himself there and speaking in the first person before Jesus. The agent is as the principal himself.

Now back to your Gen.31:11-13 comments.... above... Your wrong according to Hosea 12:3-4 which says,

“As a man he [Jacob] struggled with God; he struggled with “the angel” and overcame him. So the one who is called both “a man” and “God” in Genesis is identified as an angel in Hosea. This is a perfect example of Jewish agency where the agent is considered as the principal.

:Poly::sherlock:
Paul

Omniskeptical
January 28th, 2014, 12:38 PM
Thus he failed to do, and was banned for it.

Jerry Shugart
January 28th, 2014, 01:36 PM
Yea... Moses said he was God too... so what's your point?

You conveniently do not address the fact that the Angel is referred to as the Angel oh His presence, obviously referring to God's presence:

In this passage from the OT we see two Persons of the Godhead, and one is called the “Angel of His presence”:


“I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the LORD, and the praises of the LORD, according to all that the LORD hath bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which he hath bestowed on them according to his mercies, and according to the multitude of his lovingkindnesses. For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour. In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them” (Isa.63:7-9).

That is what the Lord was referring to when He said the following to Moses:


“And he said, My presence shall go with thee, and I will give thee rest” (Ex.33:14).

The word "presence" means the condition of being present so God was present in the Angel of His presence. And that matches perfectly the following passage which is speaking of the Lord Jesus Christ:


" For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (Isa.9:6).

We can also see that the one of the names of the Angel of the Lord is "wonderful":


"And the Angel of the LORD said to him, “Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?" (Jud.13:18).

Again, that matches what is said about the Lord Jesus here:


" For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (Isa.9:6).

Bright Raven
January 28th, 2014, 01:55 PM
Then who is Adonai, El Shaddai etc?

JosephR
January 28th, 2014, 02:30 PM
Then who is Adonai, El Shaddai etc?

Those are Hebrew names for Lord, the traditional personal name of God is only the Tetragrammaton I'm sure you know that commonly used as YHWH or YahWeh or Jehovah in English .



Posted from the TOL App!

Pierac
January 28th, 2014, 06:35 PM
You conveniently do not address the fact that the Angel is referred to as the Angel oh His presence, obviously referring to God's presence:

In this passage from the OT we see two Persons of the Godhead, and one is called the “Angel of His presence”:


“I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the LORD, and the praises of the LORD, according to all that the LORD hath bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which he hath bestowed on them according to his mercies, and according to the multitude of his lovingkindnesses. For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour. In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them” (Isa.63:7-9).

That is what the Lord was referring to when He said the following to Moses:


“And he said, My presence shall go with thee, and I will give thee rest” (Ex.33:14).

The word "presence" means the condition of being present so God was present in the Angel of His presence. And that matches perfectly the following passage which is speaking of the Lord Jesus Christ:


" For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (Isa.9:6).

We can also see that the one of the names of the Angel of the Lord is "wonderful":


"And the Angel of the LORD said to him, “Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?" (Jud.13:18).

Again, that matches what is said about the Lord Jesus here:


" For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (Isa.9:6).

Yea... just not seeing... or even reading about this Godhead you write about? No... nothing about your traditions of men Godhead in these verses what so ever... :rolleyes:

Hey... let me rock your world again... :chuckle:

Now let's review another example of Agency... look at Exodus 23:20-23. Notice 'my name is in him!' (agency)

"Behold, I send an angel before thee, to keep thee by the way ... Take ye heed of him, and hearken unto his voice; provoke him not (be not rebellious against him): for he will not pardon your transgression; for my name is in him" "But if you truly obey his voice and do all that I say, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries. "For My angel will go before you… (Exodus 23:20-23).

In this passage the angel was to be for Israel in the place of God; he was to speak God's words, and judge them. In fact the angel expressed God's name; he was God for them. Now if this was true of an angel of the Lord, how much more of the Son of God himself? :think:

Time for you to get off the milk and grow up to chew on some biblical meat Jerry Shugart! Time for you to take off those spiritual diapers... :rolleyes:

Here's a hint... That angel that could pardon transgressions... (Sins) was not Jesus!!!

How do I know??? The other Paul told us!!!

Heb 1:1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

There is no Son speaking long ago to the fathers in the prophets!!! :readthis:
:Poly::sherlock:
Paul

Jerry Shugart
January 28th, 2014, 08:11 PM
[Time for you to get off the milk and grow up to chew on some biblical meat Jerry Shugart! Time for you to take off those spiritual diapers...

Paul, you show your immaturity by refusing to deal with what is said in this passage and the ones which follow:


“I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the LORD, and the praises of the LORD, according to all that the LORD hath bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which he hath bestowed on them according to his mercies, and according to the multitude of his lovingkindnesses. For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour. In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them” (Isa.63:7-9).

That is what the Lord was referring to when He said the following to Moses:


“And he said, My presence shall go with thee, and I will give thee rest” (Ex.33:14).

The word "presence" means the condition of being present so God was present in the Angel of His presence. And that matches perfectly the following passage which is speaking of the Lord Jesus Christ:


" For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (Isa.9:6).

We can also see that the one of the names of the Angel of the Lord is "wonderful":


"And the Angel of the LORD said to him, “Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?" (Jud.13:18).

Again, that matches what is said about the Lord Jesus here:


" For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (Isa.9:6).

Why do you not address what these verses are saying?


Heb 1:1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

You stopped too soon or else we could have read what is said just a few verses later:


" But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom" (Heb.1:8).

If the Son is not God why would the Father say this about Him?:


"Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever..."

Pierac
January 28th, 2014, 09:09 PM
Paul, you show your immaturity by refusing to deal with what is said in this passage and the ones which follow:


“I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the LORD, and the praises of the LORD, according to all that the LORD hath bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which he hath bestowed on them according to his mercies, and according to the multitude of his lovingkindnesses. For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour. In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them” (Isa.63:7-9).

That is what the Lord was referring to when He said the following to Moses:


“And he said, My presence shall go with thee, and I will give thee rest” (Ex.33:14).

The word "presence" means the condition of being present so God was present in the Angel of His presence. And that matches perfectly the following passage which is speaking of the Lord Jesus Christ:


" For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (Isa.9:6).

We can also see that the one of the names of the Angel of the Lord is "wonderful":


"And the Angel of the LORD said to him, “Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?" (Jud.13:18).

Again, that matches what is said about the Lord Jesus here:


" For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (Isa.9:6).

Why do you not address what these verses are saying?

Isaiah 9: 5
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

There, you see, the Messiah is supposed to be God. Wrong! If we take a closer look at this verse you will see that it does not mean that at all. The phrase in question is Mighty God, and the proper understanding of Everlasting Father is a must. First, Mighty God.

Not all Bibles use the translation of Mighty for the Hebrew word gibbor. The Jewish translators of the Septaugint render it in the following manner, "The angel of great council." Angel meaning mesenger. But we will address the ones that do just for arguments sake. First of all, we will take a close look at the Hebrew word that is translated as Mighty. Translators have used Mighty for theological reasons, (so they can tie it in to other verses that God is referred to as mighty, and thus claim that the Messiah is supposed to be God). Let’s see what a Hebrew dictionary and a Hebrew lexicon tells us about this word.

The Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary defines this word as:
Gibbor – by impl. warrior, tyrant:- champion, chief, X excel, giant, man, mighty (man, one), valiant man. Mighty is the eighth definition of this word.

The Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon says of this word gibbor as it is used in Isaiah 9: 5:

Isaiah 9:5 - ref. Messiah, attribute of God especially as fighting for his people. This explanation doesn’t even mention Mighty.

According to these sources, gibbor as it is used in Isaiah 9:5 along with God means, a warrior king with the attributes of God. This is exactly who the Messiah is supposed to be. This definition agrees with the rest of the chapter in which Isaiah talks about how the Messiah will reign on David’s throne, and how he will rule with justice and righteousness forever because of the zeal of the LORD Almighty. Isaiah does not believe that the Messiah is supposed to be God, he distinguishes between them. He says how the Messiah will accomplish everything because of the zeal of the LORD Almighty. We can also compare this chapter to Isaiah 11 in which he is again speaking of the Messiah. In Isaiah 11: 1-3 he says how the Messiah will be from the root of Jesse, how the Spirit of the LORD will rest on him, and how he will delight in the fear of the LORD. Now, are we supposed to believe that the LORD will delight in the fear of Himself? Definitely not. Isaiah prophesying about the Messiah says:

Isaiah 49:5: "And I am made glorious in the sight of the LORD, and MY GOD is my strength."

From Isaiah 49:5 and 11:1-3 we can see that Isaiah understands the future Messiah to be a man on whom God's spirit will rest (which is the meaning of the word "Christ") who will delight in the fear of his God, the LORD. Isaiah does not consider the Messiah to be God in Isaiah 11:1-3 nor in Isaiah 49:5, and neither does he believe that in Isaiah 9: 5.

The definition of the Messiah as a warrior king with the attributes of God, is seen in Revelation 19: 11 where it reads:

"Then I saw heaven standing open and there was before me a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war."

Now we will look at some other translations to see how they have interpreted this verse.

The New English Bible says, "In battle God-like."

The New American Bible (which is a Catholic Bible, they invented the trinity) says, "God- Hero." It translates this verse in the following manner and has a note on this verse which is very interesting and enlightening. First the translation. It states: "They name him Wonder-Counselor, God-Hero, Father-Forever, Prince of Peace."
Footnote:
"Wonder- Counselor: remarkable for his wisdom and prudence. God-Hero: a warrior and defender of his people, like God himself. Father-forever: ever devoted to his people. Prince of peace: his reign will be characterized by peace."

This exegesis is in complete agreement with the definitions and Bible passage that we have just examined. Remember, this is the Catholic Church’s interpretation, I am sure that they would love to be able to say that according to this passage the Messiah is supposed to be God, but even they don’t.

For a better understanding of the term Father-Forever or Everlasting Father, (depending on your translation) one must understand that kings were considered to be fathers of their people. The Messiah is the King of Israel. I agree with the New American Bible’s explanation of Father- Forever in this verse.

We can also substantiate this definition by looking at another verse of the same writer in Isaiah 22: 20- 21:

"In that day I will summon my servant Eliakim son of Hilkiah. I will clothe him with your robe and fasten your sash around him and hand your authority over to him. He will be a father to those who live in Jerusalem and to the house of Judah."

Isaiah obviously does not mean that Eliakim is God the Father. In Isaiah 9:5 he means that the Messiah as king of the new Israel (the kingdom of God) will be like a father to his people forever.

This matches what I found using net Bible...

Like I said earlier, we need to look at the scripture in question. What is the Book or Chapter about? What are the verses before and after saying? (Context is king!)

Net Bible Isa 9:6 For a child has been15 born to us, son has been given to us. He shoulders Responsibility and is called:16 Extraordinary Strategist,17 Mighty God,18 Everlasting Father,19 Prince of Peace.20


17 Since Isa_11:2 points out that this king will receive the spirit of the Lord, which will enable him to counsel, it is possible to argue that the king's counsel is "extraordinary" because it finds its source in the divine spirit. (Anointed) Thus this title does not necessarily suggest that the ruler is deity

18 tn âÌÄáÌåÉø (gibbor) is probably an attributive adjective ("mighty God"), though one might translate "God is a warrior" or "God is mighty." Scholars have interpreted this title is two ways. A number of them have argued that the title portrays the king as God's representative on the battlefield, whom God empowers in a supernatural way (see J. H. Hayes and S. A. Irvine, Isaiah, 181-82). They contend that this sense seems more likely in the original context of the prophecy. They would suggest that having read the NT, we might in retrospect interpret this title as indicating the coming king's deity, but it is unlikely that Isaiah or his audience would have understood the title in such a bold way. Psa_45:6 addresses the Davidic king as "God" because he ruled and fought as God's representative on earth.

19 tn This title must not be taken in an anachronistic Trinitarian sense. ( To do so would be theologically problematic, for the "Son" is the messianic king and is distinct in his person from God the "Father." ) Rather, in its original context the title pictures the king as the protector of his people. For a similar use of "father" see Isa_22:21 and Job_29:16. This figurative, idiomatic use of "father" is not limited to the Bible. In a Phoenician inscription (ca. 850-800 B.C.) the ruler Kilamuwa declares: "To some I was a father, to others I was a mother." In another inscription (ca. 800 B.C.) the ruler Azitawadda boasts that the god Baal made him "a father and a mother" to his people. (See ANET 499-500.) The use of "everlasting" might suggest the deity of the king (as the one who has total control over eternity), but Isaiah and his audience may have understood the term as royal hyperbole emphasizing the king's long reign or enduring dynasty (for examples of such hyperbolic language used of the Davidic king, see 1Ki_1:31; Psa_21:4-6; Psa_61:6-7; Psa_72:5; Psa_72:17). The New Testament indicates that the hyperbolic language (as in the case of the title "Mighty God") is literally realized in the ultimate fulfillment of the prophecy, for Jesus will rule eternally.

20 tn This title pictures the king as one who establishes a safe socio-economic environment for his people. It hardly depicts him as a meek individual, for he establishes peace through military strength (as the preceding context and the first two royal titles indicate). His people experience safety and prosperity because their invincible king destroys their enemies. See Psalms 72 and 144 for parallels to these theme.


Also important to note are the words in the verse. You will note most of the translations read… “will be called” or “shall be called” This is more of a concept of agency than actually being. There is a big difference between being call something, as in(agency) and actually being. No translations ever read “He Is. ”

This verse is actually a great example of how a western mind can read a verse literally and come away with a completely wrong impression. The Hebraic back ground is needed to fully understand this verse as it was intended to be understood!


:Poly::sherlock:
Paul

freelight
January 28th, 2014, 10:58 PM
~*~*~

Let us reflect upon the fundamental, universal and ultimate reality that is infinite,.....and behold that IT alone is the One Infinite. Therefore that 'reality' is all-pervading, timeless, omnipresent, ever-availing, all-encompassing. If we call this 'original presence' by the term 'God'...then on an absolute level,....there is only 'this' that is 'absolute'. From the absolute view of what is pure, simple and indivisible,...there is only 'that' ('that' being 'God').

'God' is all there is. 'God' is all. 'God' is One. - we cannot begin or end anywhere apart from 'God' :) ...since 'God' is ever prior to and transcending any point of space or time. Such is the magnificence of 'omnipresence'. 'God' is within all dimensions and without dimension.

Truth is One.



pj

Jerry Shugart
January 28th, 2014, 11:18 PM
Isaiah 9: 5
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

There, you see, the Messiah is supposed to be God. Wrong! If we take a closer look at this verse you will see that it does not mean that at all. The phrase in question is Mighty God, and the proper understanding of Everlasting Father is a must. First, Mighty God.

In the following verse we see the exact Hebrew words as found at Isaiah 9:6:


"Thou shewest lovingkindness unto thousands, and recompensest the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them: the Great, the Mighty (gibbowr) God ('el ), the LORD of hosts, is his name" (Jer.32:18).


"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, the Mighty (gibbowr) God ('el ), The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (Isa.9:6).

The same exact Hebrew words are used in both verses and there can be absolutely no doubt that Jeremiah 32:18 is speaking about God and nothing else but God.

So I will stand with the translation of Isaiah 9:6 which I previously quoted. Now to more on the same verse:

We can also see that the one of the names of the Angel of the Lord is "wonderful":


"And the Angel of the LORD said to him, “Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?" (Jud.13:18).

Again, that matches what is said about the Lord Jesus here:


" For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (Isa.9:6).

Now to my original point which has not been answered, the fact that the Angel is called "the Angel of His presence." According to the context the pronoun "His" in the phrase "Angel of His presence" can only be referring back to the LORD:


“I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the LORD, and the praises of the LORD, according to all that the LORD hath bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which he hath bestowed on them according to his mercies, and according to the multitude of his lovingkindnesses. For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour. In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them” (Isa.63:7-9).

That is what the Lord was referring to when He said the following to Moses:


“And he said, My presence shall go with thee, and I will give thee rest” (Ex.33:14).

Pierac
January 29th, 2014, 05:43 PM
In the following verse we see the exact Hebrew words as found at Isaiah 9:6:


"Thou shewest lovingkindness unto thousands, and recompensest the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them: the Great, the Mighty (gibbowr) God ('el ), the LORD of hosts, is his name" (Jer.32:18).


"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, the Mighty (gibbowr) God ('el ), The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (Isa.9:6).

The same exact Hebrew words are used in both verses and there can be absolutely no doubt that Jeremiah 32:18 is speaking about God and nothing else but God.

So I will stand with the translation of Isaiah 9:6 which I previously quoted. Now to more on the same verse:

We can also see that the one of the names of the Angel of the Lord is "wonderful":


"And the Angel of the LORD said to him, “Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?" (Jud.13:18).

Again, that matches what is said about the Lord Jesus here:


" For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (Isa.9:6).

Now to my original point which has not been answered, the fact that the Angel is called "the Angel of His presence." According to the context the pronoun "His" in the phrase "Angel of His presence" can only be referring back to the LORD:


“I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the LORD, and the praises of the LORD, according to all that the LORD hath bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which he hath bestowed on them according to his mercies, and according to the multitude of his lovingkindnesses. For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour. In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them” (Isa.63:7-9).

That is what the Lord was referring to when He said the following to Moses:


“And he said, My presence shall go with thee, and I will give thee rest” (Ex.33:14).

Wow!!! :doh: Exactly what part of the Hebrew concept of Agency did you not understand? Read my post again! You are making my point for me!!!


Let's look at one of the stories in the Old Testament with this historic mindset. In the story of Moses and the burning bush in Exodus 3, “who” is it who appears to Moses and talked to him? My answer once was typical of the vast majority in the Church. Of course it was God himself, Yahweh, who spoke to Moses. After all, the text states that “’God’ called to him from the midst of the bush and ‘said’, ‘Moses, Moses!’” (v4).

Verse 6 is even more convincing when the same speaker says, “’I am’ the ‘God’ of your father, ‘the God’ of Abraham, ‘the God’ of Isaac, and ‘the God’ of Jacob.’ Then Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at ‘God’.” Surely it was Jehovah God himself who appear to Moses and who personally spoke? But what do we make of verse 2 that prefaces this narrative by stating that “’the angel of the LORD’ appeared” to Moses from the midst of the brush? Many scholars have declared this angel to be God himself, even the pre-existing Christ. They make much of the definitive article and point out that this was a particular angel not just any angel.

This is a fancy bit of footwork that disregards the Hebrew text as we shall see. If we turn to the New Testament’s commentary on this incident, we will see how Hebrews understood their own Scriptures.

Let us now turn to answer our question: Who is it who appears to Moses and talks to him? The martyr Stephen was a man “filled with the Holy Spirit.” Let's listen to his commentary on the burning bush incident. He clearly states that it was “an angel who appeared to him in the wilderness of Mount Sinai, in the flame of a burning bush” (Acts 7:30) As Moses approached this phenomenon, “there came the voice of the Lord: I am the God of your father. The Lord said to him, ‘Take off the sandals from your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground. (31-33).

Quite clearly this is an example of agency. It is an angel who appears to Moses and it is the angel who speaks. But note that this angel evens speaks for God in the first person. (Like Moses did!!!) The angel of the Lord says, “I am God.” The angel is distinguished from God yet identified with him. In Hebrew eyes, it is perfectly natural to consider the agent as the person himself. In Hebrew thought, homage given to God's agent or representative is homage ultimately given to God Himself.

You read your scriptures like an American tourist in Israel! Wearing spiritual knee high black socks your with bermuda shorts and white tennis shoes! :doh:


:Poly::sherlock:
Paul

Jerry Shugart
January 29th, 2014, 06:51 PM
Exactly what part of the Hebrew concept of Agency did you not understand? Read my post again! You are making my point for me!!!

You talk about agency while ignoring the fact that the Angel is referred to as the "angel of His presence." According to the context the pronoun "His" in the phrase "Angel of His presence" can only be referring back to the LORD:


“I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the LORD, and the praises of the LORD, according to all that the LORD hath bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which he hath bestowed on them according to his mercies, and according to the multitude of his lovingkindnesses. For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour. In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them” (Isa.63:7-9).

That is what the Lord was referring to when He said the following to Moses:


“And he said, My presence shall go with thee, and I will give thee rest” (Ex.33:14).

You want to talk about agency but you have not yet dealt with these facts which demonstrate that the idea of "agency" cannot possibly be the correct understanding. That is because the presence of God defines the identity of the Angel under discussion. that the Angel is God.


Quite clearly this is an example of agency. It is an angel who appears to Moses and it is the angel who speaks. But note that this angel evens speaks for God in the first person. (Like Moses did!!!) The angel of the Lord says, “I am God.” The angel is distinguished from God yet identified with him. In Hebrew eyes, it is perfectly natural to consider the agent as the person himself. In Hebrew thought, homage given to God's agent or representative is homage ultimately given to God Himself.

There is nothing that even hints that the following people thought that they were merely giving homage to God's agent because they clearly believed that the Angel of the LORD is God Himself:


"Mano′ah said to the angel of the Lord, “Pray, let us detain you, and prepare a kid for you.” And the angel of the Lord said to Mano′ah, “If you detain me, I will not eat of your food; but if you make ready a burnt offering, then offer it to the Lord.” (For Mano′ah did not know that he was the angel of the Lord.) And Mano′ah said to the angel of the Lord, What is your name, so that, when your words come true, we may honor you?” And the angel of the Lord said to him, “Why do you ask my name, seeing it is wonderful?” So Mano′ah took the kid with the cereal offering, and offered it upon the rock to the Lord, to him who works wonders. And when the flame went up toward heaven from the altar, the angel of the Lord ascended in the flame of the altar while Mano′ah and his wife looked on; and they fell on their faces to the ground. The angel of the Lord appeared no more to Mano′ah and to his wife. Then Mano′ah knew that he was the angel of the Lord. And Mano′ah said to his wife, “We shall surely die, for we have seen God" (Jud.13:15-22).

It is clear that Mano′ah and to his wife were not just paying homage to the Angel because they thought He was merely a representative of God. Instead, they believed that the Angel of the LORD is God! Otherwise, they would have no fear of dying because they saw God.


You read your scriptures like an American tourist in Israel! Wearing spiritual knee high black socks your with bermuda shorts and white tennis shoes!

It is you who cannot understand the things of God which are revealed in the Bible. In your desperate attempt to try to prove that Israel's promised Messiah is not God you denied that the following verse is a correct translation:


"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, the Mighty God , The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (Isa.9:6).

But when I showed you that the words "the Mighty God" is entirely consistent with what is said in another verse that is clearly speaking of the Mighty God you had nothing to say:


"Thou shewest lovingkindness unto thousands, and recompensest the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them: the Great, the Mighty (gibbowr) God ('el ) , the LORD of hosts, is his name" (Jer.32:18).


"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, the Mighty (gibbowr) God ('el ), The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (Isa.9:6).

The same exact Hebrew words are used in both verses and there can be absolutely no doubt that Jeremiah 32:18 is speaking about God and nothing else but God.

Your silence on this subject is speaks volumes!

whoislikeGood
January 30th, 2014, 11:42 PM
Bs’d

Who is the God of Israel? The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?

Christianity is very confused about this. A confusion also caused by bad Bible translations. In almost all translations the four lettered name of God, Y-H-W-H, which appears in the Hebrew Bible almost 7000 times, is not mentioned, but replaced by "the LORD".

But here are some Biblical texts which point out WHO is the God of Israel. In these verses the letters of the name of God are written, like in the original Hebrew.


The old testatment god is no god. Its a high tech hidden civilization that wants to keep us (humanity of the surface of the world) bound to earth. thats why the lards destroyed our towel of babel...when mankind developed technology and wanted to reach the stars (space exploration) they came down and destroyed humanity and planted demonic mind influences machines to divide us and make us to fight each other, all differences in religion, policitical ideologies, physical differences was artificially induced by the evil A holes to keep us trapped on earth......Jews, where is your promised land of flowing milk and honey? when will that BS lie you people believe to be a promise from God will come true? don't you know that true and real God is Good and Good is incapable of partiality where he will choose a group of people over all others....why is it written in your book (five books of Mosese) that do not trust a man with a crooked nose when that is the main characteristic of a Jew? Don't think I am anti Jew. I love the Jewish people...as matter of fact. to me there are only three basic races on this world. 1. the Good people 2. the in-between or so-so people. 3. the a-holes or the bad people. Yes I am racist because I favor the good people of all colors and creed over the A-hole people; I can tolerate the so-so but if I had a choice, I will stick with the good people...one of the true God's qualities are impartiality....all of your Torah, and other traditions that teaches that the Jews are the chosen people is the doctrine perpetrated by the devil and you are worshiping a devil disguised as God. If you want to reach the promised land; you must understand the deception and overcome the BS....


Exodus 29:46 “They will know that I am Y-H-W-H their God, who brought them out of Egypt so that I might dwell among them. I am Y-H-W-H their God.”

Numbers 15:41 “I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of Egypt to be your God. I am Y-H-W-H your God.”

Deuteronomy 10:20-21 “Fear Y-H-W-H your God and serve him. Hold fast to him and take your oaths in his name. He is your praise; he is your God, who performed for you those great and awesome wonders you saw with your own eyes.”

Joshua 24:18 “We too will serve Y-H-W-H , because he is our God.”

II Samuel 22:32 “For who is God besides Y-H-W-H ?”

I Chronicles 16:14 “He is Y-H-W-H our God; his judgments are in all the earth”

II Chronicles 13:10 “As for us, Y-H-W-H is our God, and we have not forsaken him”

Psalm 31:14 “But I trust in you, O Y-H-W-H; I say, "You are my God.”

Psalm 89:6 “For who in the skies above can compare with Y-H-W-H? Who is like Y-H-W-H among the heavenly beings?”

Psalm 91:2 “I will say of Y-H-W-H , "He is my refuge and my fortress, my God, in whom I trust.”

Psalm 100:3 “Know that Y-H-W-H is God. It is he who made us.”

Psalm 105:7 “He is Y-H-W-H our God; his judgments are in all the earth;”

Psalm 118:27 “Y-H-W-H is God, and he has made his light shine upon us.”

Psalm 140:6 “O Y-H-W-H, I say to you, "You are my God”

Isaiah 25:1 “O Y-H-W-H, you are my God.”

Isaiah 41:13 “For I am Y-H-W-H , your God;”

Isaiah 43:3 “For I am Y-H-W-H , your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior;”

Isaiah 51:15 “For I am Y-H-W-H your God, who churns up the sea so that its waves roar- Y-H-W-H Almighty is his name”

Jeremiah 3:22-23 “Yes, we will come to you, for you are Y-H-W-H our God”

Jeremiah 10:10 “But Y-H-W-H is the true God; he is the living God, the eternal King.;”

Jeremiah 31:18 “Restore me, and I will return, because you are Y-H-W-H my God.”

Habakkuk 1:12 “O Y-H-W-H, are you not from everlasting? My God, my Holy One, we will not die.”



And is there, except for this God Y-H-W-H, any other god?



Deuteronomy 4:35 “You were shown these things so that you might know that Y-H-W-H is God; besides him there is no other.”

Deuteronomy 4:39 “Acknowledge and take to heart this day that Y-H-W-H is God in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other.”

II Samuel 7:22 “How great you are, O Sovereign Y-H-W-H! There is no one like you, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.”

I Kings 8:60 “so that all the peoples of the earth may know that Y-H-W-H is God and that there is no other.”

I Chronicles 17:20 “There is no one like you, O Y-H-W-H, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.”

II Chronicles 6:14 “O Y-H-W-H, God of Israel, there is no God like you in heaven or on earth.”

Nehemiah 9:6 “You alone are Y-H-W-H.”

Isaiah 45:21-23 “You are my witnesses," declares Y-H-W-H, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me."

Isaiah 44:6 “This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.”

Isaiah 45:5-6 “I am Y-H-W-H , and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me, so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides me."

Isaiah 45:21-23 “Declare what is to be, present it- let them take counsel together. Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past? Was it not I, Y-H-W-H? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me. Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.”

Joel 2:27 “Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am Y-H-W-H your God, and that there is no other;”



Exodus 20:1-3 “And God spoke all these words: "I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME.”



Eliyahu, light unto the nations


"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

JosephR
January 31st, 2014, 12:11 AM
HaShem Elohiem

:)

Elia
January 31st, 2014, 05:08 AM
You conveniently do not address the fact that the Angel is referred to as the Angel oh His presence, obviously referring to God's presence:

In this passage from the OT we see two Persons of the Godhead, and one is called the “Angel of His presence”:

Bs'd

The word translated with "angel" means "messenger", and is always translated like that, except when it speaks about a messenger of God, then it is translated as "angel".

But God is not His own messenger, just like He is not His own son, and not His own father.




" For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (Isa.9:6).


Isaiah 9:2-7 "2 The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light; those who dwelt in a land of deep darkness, on them has light shined. 3 Thou hast multiplied the nation, thou hast increased its joy; they rejoice before thee as with joy at the harvest, as men rejoice when they divide the spoil. 4 For the yoke of his burden, and the staff for his shoulder, the rod of his oppressor, thou hast broken as on the day of Mid'ian. 5 For every boot of the tramping warrior in battle tumult and every garment rolled in blood will be burned as fuel for the fire. 6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace". 7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David, and over his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and for evermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this."
Please take notice of the fact that Isaiah is talking in the past tense: "The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light; those who dwelt in a land of deep darkness, on them has light shined.|

"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government is upon his shoulder, and his name was called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."

These are things which had happened already in the days of Isaiah.

If, despite these facts, you still want to apply these verses to JC, than read verse 5, 6, and 7, and see that JC didn't do any of those things. He never ruled on the throne of David, he never had any government on his shoulders, and there never was endless peace over his kingdom.

The same holds true for the verses 6 and 7: "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace". 7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David, and over his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and for evermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this."

All of this doesn't hold true for JC; he never had any government on his shoulder. And also here is spoken in the past tense: "A child is born, a son is given. But most translations give it in the future tense. For instance the RSV, NIV, NAS, ESV, KJV, NIRV, the all say; "His name will be called ....", future tense. However, in the Hebrew text this too is past tense: "His name was called ...." The Hebrew expression here is "wayikra". That is the first word in the book of Leviticus. And all the previously mentioned translations there say: "And the Lord called Mozes ..." Past tense. Exactly the same the word. Isn't that weird? Exactly the same word is used in Genesis 5:1; "And God called the light 'day'" Called. Past tense. Nobody argues with that one. But why then, in Isaiah 9, is it suddenly changed to future tense? The answer is simple: The past tense doesn't fit with the Christian theology, and therefore the Bible translations are corrupted and twisted to fit the Christian religion. Just like that. There is only one solution for this problem: Take a course in Biblical Hebrew. It is more easy then it looks. Then your eyes will be opened and the Christian deception will stare you in the face. And yes, I do sympathize with the poor misguided Christians whom are being led astray by their clergy by means of twisted and corrupted Bible translations. That's the reason why I fulfill my duty of being a light unto the nations and uncovering the Christian deception.
"Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end" "There will be no end", future tense. And this too is WRONG. It is in the Hebrew present tense. I found only one translation which is correct here, and that is Young's Literal Translation.

Why all this stress on the tenses? Isaiah spoke about a king who was living in his days, and therefore JC is out. The king that Isaiah speaks about is Hezekiah, the son of Achaz who got from Isaiah the sign about the young woman (no, not the virgin) who was pregnant and gave birth to the son Immanuel.
The Talmud explains that under the rule of the God fearing Hezekiah the Jewish kingdom rose to great heights, and that's why he was entitled to those impressive titles.


Because of the fact that the name of the son is "Mighty God", (or "God is Mighty", both are possible translations) and "Eternals Father", the Christians deduce that the boy spoken about must have been God.
HOWEVER, a name is only that; a name. A name is not a description of the bearer of that name. An example: Buffalo Bill was not a buffalo. The indian chief Sitting Bull was not a bull.
Many times people in the Bible have in their name the word "God", or the name of God, but that doesn't mean that those people are God. For instance; in Exodus 6:23 is spoken about a man called "Elazar". That means "God is helper", or "Helping God". But that doesn't mean that that man was God.
Exodus 6:24; "Elkanah", that means "God acquired", or "acquiring God". II Samuel 22:19; "Elchanan"; "God is merciful", or "Merciful God". But these men were not God, just like the the child in Isaiah 9 wasn't God.


Apart from that, the Hebrew words "El gibor", in Christian Bibles translated with "Mighty God", can have a different meaning. "El" can mean "God", but it can also mean "judge", "leader", or "mighty man". In Exodus 4:16 God says to Moses that he will be of an elohiem for his brother Aharon. ("elohim" is the longer form of the word "el") This doesn't mean that Moses was a God for Aharon and Aharon started to worship his brother, it meant that Moses would be the leader of Aharon.
In Exodus 21:1-6 is spoken about a slave who after the normal period of servitude ended, doesn't want to leave his master. In that case the owner has to take him to court, where the slave will make a statement that he doesn't want to leave his master, and that he will serve his master until his death. The Hebrew text there says that his master must take him to the "elohim". There the NAS, ASV, ESV, NRSV, RSV, YLT, they all say that his master must take him "to God". However, his master doesn't take him for a ride to heaven, but takes him to the courthouse. Therefore the NIV, KJV, TNIV, and the NIRV, they all say that the master must take him to "the judges".

Even so in Isaiah 9 the word "El" does not necessarily mean "God". Therefore the text in Isaiah 9 is in no way a proof that the child spoken about was God.

Elia
January 31st, 2014, 05:14 AM
God is not the result of counted things.

Try again...



שמע ישראל י-ה-ו-ה אלהנו י-ה-ו-ה אחד

Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE.
Deut 6:4


"One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”
29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”
32 “Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. 33 To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.”
34 When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions."
Mark 12

Caino
January 31st, 2014, 06:08 AM
שמע ישראל י-ה-ו-ה אלהנו י-ה-ו-ה אחד

Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE.
Deut 6:4


"One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”
29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”
32 “Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. 33 To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.”
34 When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions."
Mark 12





One in divine unity, plural in personified manifestation.

Elia
January 31st, 2014, 06:42 AM
One in divine unity, plural in personified manifestation.

Bs'd

When I say 'God is one', I bring many Biblical texts.

When you say God is a unity, you come up with exactly zero Biblical texts.

Caino
January 31st, 2014, 09:15 AM
Bs'd

When I say 'God is one', I bring many Biblical texts.

When you say God is a unity, you come up with exactly zero Biblical texts.


Originally God was thought of as plural "Elohim" but in the battle between Yahweh and the other inferior God concepts in the regeon, the Israelites tended to singularize their deity concept into an inflexible oneness.


The plural deity concepts are in the scripture but you don't have an open mind, your racial pride prevents you from having an honest conversation with the Gentiles that you look down upon from your desolate perch.

An open minded person can read the Bible from the beginning and see right off the bat the original authors portray God talking in the plural to his divine counterparts:


* "In the beginning God, created the heavens and the earth" Genesis 1:1

* "And God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness;

* "The LORD God said, 'Behold, the man has become like one of US, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever'"

* "Come, let US go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another's speech."

* "'Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts; the whole earth is full of His glory!'"


But because of pride the Jewish people have gone back through the Bible and reworked their interpretation in order to reject Jesus and justify their guilt for rejecting him in a disgraceful, unjust trial.



"Personality in Deity demands that such Deity exist in relation to other and equal personal Deity."

Jerry Shugart
January 31st, 2014, 11:07 AM
The word translated with "angel" means "messenger", and is always translated like that, except when it speaks about a messenger of God, then it is translated as "angel".

But God is not His own messenger, just like He is not His own son, and not His own father.

You continue tojust IGNORE the fact that the Angel is referred to as the Angel of His presence. According to the context the pronoun "His" in the phrase "Angel of His presence" can only be referring back to the LORD:


“I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the LORD, and the praises of the LORD, according to all that the LORD hath bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which he hath bestowed on them according to his mercies, and according to the multitude of his lovingkindnesses. For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour. In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them” (Isa.63:7-9).

That is what the Lord was referring to when He said the following to Moses:


“And he said, My presence shall go with thee, and I will give thee rest” (Ex.33:14).

You ignore the fact that the presence of God defines the identity of the Angel under discussion--that the Angel is God.


These are things which had happened already in the days of Isaiah.

You obviously have no knowledge of the history of Israel if you think that the following happened during the days of Isaiah:


"Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David, and over his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and for evermore" (Isa.9:7).

I am afraid that in your zeal to defend your view on this matter you have lost all touch with reality.


If, despite these facts, you still want to apply these verses to JC, than read verse 5, 6, and 7, and see that JC didn't do any of those things. He never ruled on the throne of David, he never had any government on his shoulders, and there never was endless peace over his kingdom.

Your argument is faulty because the Scriptures reveal that the earthly kingdom will not even be set up until the Messiah defends the children of Israel when all the nations come upon Jerusalem:


" I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city. Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights on a day of battle. On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem" (Zech.14:2-4).

Here we read that the feet of J-H-W-H will stand on the mount of Olives and fight against all of the nations which come against Jerusalem. That fits perfectly that it will be the Lord Jesus, who is the Son of Man, who is in view here.


Even so in Isaiah 9 the word "El" does not necessarily mean "God". Therefore the text in Isaiah 9 is in no way a proof that the child spoken about was God.

I will remain convinced that the correct translation is "Mighty God," especially when we see that is not the only instance where the same Hebrew word are referring to God:


"Thou shewest lovingkindness unto thousands, and recompensest the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them: the Great, the Mighty (gibbowr) God ('el ), the LORD of hosts, is his name" (Jer.32:18).


"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, the Mighty (gibbowr) God ('el ), The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (Isa.9:6).

The same exact Hebrew words are used in both verses and there can be absolutely no doubt that Jeremiah 32:18 is speaking about God and nothing else but God. And we can see another example of the same exact thing here:


"The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the Mighty (gibbowr) God ('el )" (Isa.10:21).

Pierac
February 10th, 2014, 09:08 PM
You conveniently do not address the fact that the Angel is referred to as the Angel oh His presence, obviously referring to God's presence:

In this passage from the OT we see two Persons of the Godhead, and one is called the “Angel of His presence”:


“I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the LORD, and the praises of the LORD, according to all that the LORD hath bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which he hath bestowed on them according to his mercies, and according to the multitude of his lovingkindnesses. For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour. In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them” (Isa.63:7-9).

That is what the Lord was referring to when He said the following to Moses:


“And he said, My presence shall go with thee, and I will give thee rest” (Ex.33:14).

The word "presence" means the condition of being present so God was present in the Angel of His presence. And that matches perfectly the following passage which is speaking of the Lord Jesus Christ:


" For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (Isa.9:6).

We can also see that the one of the names of the Angel of the Lord is "wonderful":


"And the Angel of the LORD said to him, “Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?" (Jud.13:18).

Again, that matches what is said about the Lord Jesus here:


" For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (Isa.9:6).

:think::think::think:

What the ... heck are you talking about?

Are you now claiming God to be a Angel ? Because that's what it looks like! ??? :rolleyes:

Your a Spiritual Child!!! :doh:


Isaiah 9: 5


For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

There, you see, the Messiah is supposed to be God. Wrong! If we take a closer look at this verse you will see that it does not mean that at all. The phrase in question is Mighty God, and the proper understanding of Everlasting Father is a must. First, Mighty God.

Not all Bibles use the translation of Mighty for the Hebrew word gibbor. The Jewish translators of the Septaugint render it in the following manner, "The angel of great council." Angel meaning messenger. But we will address the ones that do just for arguments sake. First of all, we will take a close look at the Hebrew word that is translated as Mighty. Translators have used Mighty for theological reasons, (so they can tie it in to other verses that God is referred to as mighty, and thus claim that the Messiah is supposed to be God). Let’s see what a Hebrew dictionary and a Hebrew lexicon tells us about this word.

The Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary defines this word as:
Gibbor – by impl. warrior, tyrant:- champion, chief, X excel, giant, man, mighty (man, one), valiant man. Mighty is the eighth definition of this word.

The Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon says of this word gibbor as it is used in Isaiah 9: 5:

Isaiah 9:5 - ref. Messiah, attribute of God especially as fighting for his people. This explanation doesn’t even mention Mighty.

According to these sources, gibbor as it is used in Isaiah 9:5 along with God means, a warrior king with the attributes of God. This is exactly who the Messiah is supposed to be. This definition agrees with the rest of the chapter in which Isaiah talks about how the Messiah will reign on David’s throne, and how he will rule with justice and righteousness forever because of the zeal of the LORD Almighty. Isaiah does not believe that the Messiah is supposed to be God, he distinguishes between them. He says how the Messiah will accomplish everything because of the zeal of the LORD Almighty. We can also compare this chapter to Isaiah 11 in which he is again speaking of the Messiah. In Isaiah 11: 1-3 he says how the Messiah will be from the root of Jesse, how the Spirit of the LORD will rest on him, and how he will delight in the fear of the LORD. Now, are we supposed to believe that the LORD will delight in the fear of Himself? Definitely not. Isaiah prophesying about the Messiah says:

Isaiah 49:5: "And I am made glorious in the sight of the LORD, and MY GOD is my strength."

From Isaiah 49:5 and 11:1-3 we can see that Isaiah understands the future Messiah to be a man on whom God's spirit will rest (which is the meaning of the word "Christ") who will delight in the fear of his God, the LORD. Isaiah does not consider the Messiah to be God in Isaiah 11:1-3 nor in Isaiah 49:5, and neither does he believe that in Isaiah 9: 5.

The definition of the Messiah as a warrior king with the attributes of God, is seen in Revelation 19: 11 where it reads:

"Then I saw heaven standing open and there was before me a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war."

Now we will look at some other translations to see how they have interpreted this verse.

The New English Bible says, "In battle God-like."

The New American Bible (which is a Catholic Bible, they invented the trinity) says, "God- Hero." It translates this verse in the following manner and has a note on this verse which is very interesting and enlightening. First the translation. It states: "They name him Wonder-Counselor, God-Hero, Father-Forever, Prince of Peace."
Footnote:
"Wonder- Counselor: remarkable for his wisdom and prudence. God-Hero: a warrior and defender of his people, like God himself.
Father-forever: ever devoted to his people. Prince of peace: his reign will be characterized by peace."

This exegesis is in complete agreement with the definitions and Bible passage that we have just examined. Remember, this is the Catholic Church’s interpretation, I am sure that they would love to be able to say that according to this passage the Messiah is supposed to be God, but even they don’t.

For a better understanding of the term Father-Forever or Everlasting Father, (depending on your translation) one must understand that kings were considered to be fathers of their people. The Messiah is the King of Israel. I agree with the New American Bible’s explanation of Father- Forever in this verse.

We can also substantiate this definition by looking at another verse of the same writer in Isaiah 22: 20- 21:

"In that day I will summon my servant Eliakim son of Hilkiah. I will clothe him with your robe and fasten your sash around him and hand your authority over to him. He will be a father to those who live in Jerusalem and to the house of Judah."

Isaiah obviously does not mean that Eliakim is God the Father. In Isaiah 9:5 he means that the Messiah as king of the new Israel (the kingdom of God) will be like a father to his people forever.

This matches what I found using e-sword's net Bible...

Like I said earlier, we need to look at the scripture in question. What is the Book or Chapter about? What are the verses before and after saying?

Just a note. The net people believe in the trinity yet look how they handle this verse. Note the red numbers for reference to the comments. They did a good job of trying to be non-bias here.


Net Bible Isa 9:6 For a child has been15 born to us, son has been given to us. He shoulders Responsibility and is called:16 Extraordinary Strategist,17 Mighty God,18 Everlasting Father,19 Prince of Peace.20


17 Since Isa_11:2 points out that this king will receive the spirit of the Lord, which will enable him to counsel, it is possible to argue that the king's counsel is "extraordinary" because it finds its source in the divine spirit. (Anointed) Thus this title does not necessarily suggest that the ruler is deity

18 tn âÌÄáÌåÉø (gibbor) is probably an attributive adjective ("mighty God"), though one might translate "God is a warrior" or "God is mighty." Scholars have interpreted this title is two ways. A number of them have argued that the title portrays the king as God's representative on the battlefield, whom God empowers in a supernatural way (see J. H. Hayes and S. A. Irvine, Isaiah, 181-82). They contend that this sense seems more likely in the original context of the prophecy. They would suggest that having read the NT, we might in retrospect interpret this title as indicating the coming king's deity, but it is unlikely that Isaiah or his audience would have understood the title in such a bold way. Psa_45:6 addresses the Davidic king as "God" because he ruled and fought as God's representative on earth.

19 tn This title must not be taken in an anachronistic Trinitarian sense. (To do so would be theologically problematic, for the "Son" is the messianic king and is distinct in his person from God the "Father.") Rather, in its original context the title pictures the king as the protector of his people. For a similar use of "father" see Isa_22:21 and Job_29:16. This figurative, idiomatic use of "father" is not limited to the Bible. In a Phoenician inscription (ca. 850-800 B.C.) the ruler Kilamuwa declares: "To some I was a father, to others I was a mother." In another inscription (ca. 800 B.C.) the ruler Azitawadda boasts that the god Baal made him "a father and a mother" to his people. (See ANET 499-500.) The use of "everlasting" might suggest the deity of the king (as the one who has total control over eternity), but Isaiah and his audience may have understood the term as royal hyperbole emphasizing the king's long reign or enduring dynasty (for examples of such hyperbolic language used of the Davidic king, see 1Ki_1:31; Psa_21:4-6; Psa_61:6-7; Psa_72:5; Psa_72:17). The New Testament indicates that the hyperbolic language (as in the case of the title "Mighty God") is literally realized in the ultimate fulfillment of the prophecy, for Jesus will rule eternally.

20 tn This title pictures the king as one who establishes a safe socio-economic environment for his people. It hardly depicts him as a meek individual, for he establishes peace through military strength (as the preceding context and the first two royal titles indicate). His people experience safety and prosperity because their invincible king destroys their enemies. See Psalms 72 and 144 for parallels to these theme.


Also important to note are the words in the verse. You will note most of the translations read… “will be called” or “shall be called” This is more of a concept of agency than actually being. There is a big difference between being call something, as in(agency) and actually being. No translations ever read “He Is. ”

This verse is actually a great example of how a western mind can read a verse literally and come away with a completely wrong impression. The Hebraic back ground is needed to fully understand this verse as it was intended to be understood!


:Poly::sherlock:
Paul

Elia
February 10th, 2014, 10:49 PM
Bs'd

Isaiah 9:2-7 "2 The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light; those who dwelt in a land of deep darkness, on them has light shined. 3 Thou hast multiplied the nation, thou hast increased its joy; they rejoice before thee as with joy at the harvest, as men rejoice when they divide the spoil. 4 For the yoke of his burden, and the staff for his shoulder, the rod of his oppressor, thou hast broken as on the day of Mid'ian. 5 For every boot of the tramping warrior in battle tumult and every garment rolled in blood will be burned as fuel for the fire. 6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace". 7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David, and over his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and for evermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this."
Please take notice of the fact that Isaiah is talking in the past tense: "The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light; those who dwelt in a land of deep darkness, on them has light shined.|

"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government is upon his shoulder, and his name was called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."

These are things which had happened already in the days of Isaiah.

If, despite these facts, you still want to apply these verses to the Christian messiah, than read verse 5, 6, and 7, and see that he didn't do any of those things. He never ruled on the throne of David, he never had any government on his shoulders, and there never was endless peace over his kingdom.

The same holds true for the verses 6 and 7: "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace". 7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David, and over his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and for evermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this."

All of this doesn't hold true for Christian messiah; he never had any government on his shoulder. And also here is spoken in the past tense: "A child is born, a son is given. But most translations give it in the future tense. For instance the RSV, NIV, NAS, ESV, KJV, NIRV, the all say; "His name will be called ....", future tense. However, in the Hebrew text this too is past tense: "His name was called ...." The Hebrew expression here is "wayikra". That is the first word in the book of Leviticus. And all the previously mentioned translations there say: "And the Lord called Mozes ..." Past tense. Exactly the same the word. Isn't that weird? Exactly the same word is used in Genesis 5:1; "And God called the light 'day'" Called. Past tense. Nobody argues with that one. But why then, in Isaiah 9, is it suddenly changed to future tense? The answer is simple: The past tense doesn't fit with the Christian theology, and therefore the Bible translations are corrupted and twisted to fit the Christian religion. Just like that. There is only one solution for this problem: Take a course in Biblical Hebrew. It is more easy then it looks. Then your eyes will be opened and the Christian deception will stare you in the face. And yes, I do sympathize with the poor misguided Christians whom are being led astray by their clergy by means of twisted and corrupted Bible translations. That's the reason why I fulfill my duty of being a light unto the nations and uncovering the Christian deception.
"Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end" "There will be no end", future tense. And this too is WRONG. It is in the Hebrew present tense. I found only one translation which is correct here, and that is Young's Literal Translation.

Why all this stress on the tenses? Isaiah spoke about a king who was living in his days, and therefore Christ is out. The king that Isaiah speaks about is Hezekiah, the son of Achaz who got from Isaiah the sign about the young woman (no, not the virgin) who was pregnant and gave birth to the son Immanuel.
The Talmud explains that under the rule of the God fearing Hezekiah the Jewish kingdom rose to great heights, and that's why he was entitled to those impressive titles.


Because of the fact that the name of the son is "Mighty God", (or "God is Mighty", both are possible translations) and "Eternals Father", the Christians deduce that the boy spoken about must have been God.
HOWEVER, a name is only that; a name. A name is not a description of the bearer of that name. An example: Buffalo Bill was not a buffalo. The indian chief Sitting Bull was not a bull.
Many times people in the Bible have in their name the word "God", or the name of God, but that doesn't mean that those people are God. For instance; in Exodus 6:23 is spoken about a man called "Elazar". That means "God is helper", or "Helping God". But that doesn't mean that that man was God.
Exodus 6:24; "Elkanah", that means "God acquired", or "acquiring God". II Samuel 22:19; "Elchanan"; "God is merciful", or "Merciful God". But these men were not God, just like the the child in Isaiah 9 wasn't God.


Apart from that, the Hebrew words "El gibor", in Christian Bibles translated with "Mighty God", can have a different meaning. "El" can mean "God", but it can also mean "judge", "leader", or "mighty man". In Exodus 4:16 God says to Moses that he will be of an elohiem for his brother Aharon. ("elohim" is the longer form of the word "el") This doesn't mean that Moses was a God for Aharon and Aharon started to worship his brother, it meant that Moses would be the leader of Aharon.
In Exodus 21:1-6 is spoken about a slave who after the normal period of servitude ended, doesn't want to leave his master. In that case the owner has to take him to court, where the slave will make a statement that he doesn't want to leave his master, and that he will serve his master until his death. The Hebrew text there says that his master must take him to the "elohim". There the NAS, ASV, ESV, NRSV, RSV, YLT, they all say that his master must take him "to God". However, his master doesn't take him for a ride to heaven, but takes him to the courthouse. Therefore the NIV, KJV, TNIV, and the NIRV, they all say that the master must take him to "the judges".

Even so in Isaiah 9 the word "El" does not necessarily mean "God". Therefore the text in Isaiah 9 is in no way a proof that the child spoken about was God.

Elia
February 10th, 2014, 10:54 PM
Originally God was thought of as plural "Elohim" but in the battle between Yahweh and the other inferior God concepts in the regeon, the Israelites tended to singularize their deity concept into an inflexible oneness.


The plural deity concepts are in the scripture but you don't have an open mind, your racial pride prevents you from having an honest conversation with the Gentiles that you look down upon from your desolate perch.

An open minded person can read the Bible from the beginning and see right off the bat the original authors portray God talking in the plural to his divine counterparts:


* "In the beginning God, created the heavens and the earth" Genesis 1:1

* "And God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness;

* "The LORD God said, 'Behold, the man has become like one of US, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever'"

* "Come, let US go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another's speech."

Bs'd

Genesis 1:26; "Let us make man" If anybody finds in a text the word "us", would any normal person assume that it refers to one person with a multi-personality disorder? Of course not.

But why then, when Christians see the word "us" in the Bible, do they think that?

Gen 1:26 is used as a 'proof' that there is more than one God, or one God who is not one, eventhough the Bible clearly teaches that there is only one God who is one. and despite the fact that there are several other valid explanations for the plural word "us". One explanation is that it is a majestic plural as used by kings. Another possible explanation is that God was talking to the angels.

Some Christians try to refute the last argument by saying that the angels didn't create. They point to Genesis 1:1; "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." They say: 'God was the creator, and not the angels.' However, it is a given in Jewish law that an emissary is equal to the one who sends him. When a Jewish man marries a woman through an agent, the legal effect is the same as when he marries her personally. A good Biblical example of this is to be found in Genesis 19 where is spoken about the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. God sent two angels to destroy the cities, the angels said to Lot in verse 13: "For we are about to destroy this place, because the outcry against its people has become great before the LORD, and the LORD has sent us to destroy it." Upon this Lot says to his sons in law: "Up, get out of this place; for the LORD is about to destroy the city." Lot didn't say: "The angels are going to destroy the city" He said: "The LORD (Y-H-W-H in the Hebrew text) is going to destroy the city". And in verse 29 it is written: "So it was that, when God destroyed the cities of the valley...." So the angels were send by God to destroy the cities, but God is considered to be the one who did it, because He was the one who sent them. So why shouldn't the same hold true for the creation?

But one way or the other, no plural created man. Look in Genesis 5:1; "When God created man ..." In Hebrew this is: "bara Elohiem adam" Here the verb "to create", in Hebrew "bara", is in the singular, indicating clearly that Elohiem who created man is one. The same goes for the very first verse of the Bible: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." The word created is here written in the singular; it says "bara". If God was a plural, it should have been "baru".
setstats


BUT, back to the pronouns, Y-H-W-H says the following:

Isaiah 44:6 “This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.”

It says "I" am Y-H-W-H. And, as we all know, "I" is singular, and not plural, and therefore no three persons in Y-H-W-H. Otherwise He would have said: "WE are Y-H-W-H."

But no such thing, God says: "I am Y-H-W-H".

No trinity.

Another example of a pronoun:

Nehemiah 9:6 “You alone are Y-H-W-H.”

As we see, it says that YOU, in the Hebrew singular, not plural are Y-H-W-H.

Again, no YOU, plural, are Y-H-W-H, but YOU singular, are Y-H-W-H.

So no three persons in God.

Another one:

Isaiah 44:6 “This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.”

Clear what? It doesn't say: “This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: WE are the first and WE are the last; apart from US there is no God.”

No such a thing, it is all SINGULAR.

Another one:

Joel 2:27 “Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am Y-H-W-H your God, and that there is no other;”

Again, God says: "I am Y-H-W-H", and not "WE are Y-H-W-H" Such a thing simply doesn't exist.

I can go on and on with this, but these examples suffice. There is NO plurality in God.

And the word "us" when God speaks to the angels, does not imply otherwise.




But because of pride the Jewish people have gone back through the Bible and reworked their interpretation in order to reject Jesus and justify their guilt for rejecting him in a disgraceful, unjust trial.

He is rejected because he did not fulfill the messianic prophecies, and therefore he was not the messiah.

And his claim that he was God and needs to be honoured as God, leads the multitudes into idolatry.

There is only ONE God who is one, and that is not Christ, but Y-H-W-H.

Apple7
February 10th, 2014, 10:59 PM
Just look at how the Jews disobeyed Yahweh and were given-up to the worship of idols, demons and false gods. How can it be that Jews proclaim the worship of one true God when all the way through their book of faith they repeatedly worshiped a whole multitude of false gods?!


Lev 17.5 - 7

The reason which may bring the sons of Israel their sacrifices which they were sacrificing in the open field may bring to Yahweh at the doorway of the meeting tent to the priest and sacrifice sacrifices of peace to Yahweh. The priest shall sprinkle the blood on the altar of Yahweh at the doorway of the tent of the meeting and offer the fat soothing aroma to Yahweh. And they shall no longer sacrifice their sacrifices to the devils which they play after; this shall be a permanent statute likewise throughout their generations.


Judges 10.6

Again the sons of Israel did evil in the sight of Yahweh and worshiped the Baals and the Ashtaroth and the gods of Aram and the gods of Sidon and the gods of Moab and the gods of the sons of Ammon and the gods of the Philistines and forsook Yahweh and did not worship Him.



For thousands upon thousands of years the Jews worshipped an untold number of gods. Given this horrible, rock-bottom track record, how in the world can a modern-day Jew proclaim to be worshipping the creator God of the Universe, as He intended, with any certainty at all?

Clearly, there would have been no need for the Jews to feel the need to fabricate multiple gods, unless they had already been exposed to a uni-plural Creator of which they could not comprehend even to this very day.

Yahweh has always revealed Himself as Triune. Many misled early Jews saw this revelation and ran with it…making a multiplicity of separate gods…not being cognizant that the God revealed in their scriptures invokes plurality in one God.

The NT records that many Jews immediately understood that Jesus was God in the flesh. How then would this be possible – unless they had a very good understanding of the OT scriptures and knew that Yahweh had already manifested Himself in the flesh to the prophets?

Only Trinitarian Christians are able to see the Creator God was He has revealed Himself.

wordsponge
February 11th, 2014, 01:25 AM
Y-H-W-H had a secret
that he revealed ONLY to those who respected him;
like finally the chosen Israelite Christians,
whom the Highest chose out and gave to him, (Y-H-W-H his Son),
from the nation of Israel as inheritance, and cast away the rest.

Pss.25
[14] The secret of the LORD (Y-H-W-H) is with them who fear (RESPECT) him;
and he will reveal to them his covenant.

Pierac
February 11th, 2014, 03:54 PM
:think:
Just look at how the Jews disobeyed Yahweh and were given-up to the worship of idols, demons and false gods. How can it be that Jews proclaim the worship of one true God when all the way through their book of faith they repeatedly worshiped a whole multitude of false gods?!


Lev 17.5 - 7

The reason which may bring the sons of Israel their sacrifices which they were sacrificing in the open field may bring to Yahweh at the doorway of the meeting tent to the priest and sacrifice sacrifices of peace to Yahweh. The priest shall sprinkle the blood on the altar of Yahweh at the doorway of the tent of the meeting and offer the fat soothing aroma to Yahweh. And they shall no longer sacrifice their sacrifices to the devils which they play after; this shall be a permanent statute likewise throughout their generations.


Judges 10.6

Again the sons of Israel did evil in the sight of Yahweh and worshiped the Baals and the Ashtaroth and the gods of Aram and the gods of Sidon and the gods of Moab and the gods of the sons of Ammon and the gods of the Philistines and forsook Yahweh and did not worship Him.



For thousands upon thousands of years the Jews worshipped an untold number of gods. Given this horrible, rock-bottom track record, how in the world can a modern-day Jew proclaim to be worshipping the creator God of the Universe, as He intended, with any certainty at all?

Clearly, there would have been no need for the Jews to feel the need to fabricate multiple gods, unless they had already been exposed to a uni-plural Creator of which they could not comprehend even to this very day.

Yahweh has always revealed Himself as Triune. Many misled early Jews saw this revelation and ran with it…making a multiplicity of separate gods…not being cognizant that the God revealed in their scriptures invokes plurality in one God.

The NT records that many Jews immediately understood that Jesus was God in the flesh. How then would this be possible – unless they had a very good understanding of the OT scriptures and knew that Yahweh had already manifested Himself in the flesh to the prophets?

Only Trinitarian Christians are able to see the Creator God was He has revealed Himself.

Please show us "The NT records" in your scriptures? Because they are not in mine... The question is... are you reading into your text when you should be reading out of your text?

Post your NT records and I will but in in biblical context! Context Is King... You Trinitarians should try using it! :readthis:

:Poly::sherlock:
Paul

Apple7
February 11th, 2014, 09:42 PM
:think:

Please show us "The NT records" in your scriptures? Because they are not in mine... The question is... are you reading into your text when you should be reading out of your text?

Post your NT records and I will but in in biblical context! Context Is King... You Trinitarians should try using it! :readthis:

:Poly::sherlock:
Paul


The NT, just like the OT, is clear that we need to worship God as He has revealed Himself – which is Triune.

Paul clearly distanced himself from his unbelieving Jewish brethren by his following belief declaration:


But I confess this to you that according to the Way, which they say is a sect, so I worship the ancestral God believing all things according to that having been written in the Law and the Prophets, having hope toward God, which these themselves also admit, of a resurrection being about to be of the dead, both of just and unjust ones. (Acts 24.14)

Clearly, Paul builds upon the previous Hebrew prophets and is now able to worship God properly ‘according to The Way’ and according to that which had previously been written in the Torah and the prophets.

Obviously, Paul is able to see what his Jewish brethren have missed. Jews have been in denial of proper worship of God – and ‘The Way’ has laid the foundation for proper worship to God.

Proper worship of God:

But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth. For the Father also seeks such, the ones worshiping Him. God is spirit, and the ones worshiping Him must worship in spirit and truth.(John 4.23 - 24)


This proper worship is as a Triune entity:

• Father
• Son (Truth)
• Spirit


Further, the Book of Revelation shows us clearly the deity interchangeability between Father, Son and Spirit and amply demonstrates that each receives worship as the one God.

keypurr
February 11th, 2014, 10:04 PM
The NT, just like the OT, is clear that we need to worship God as He has revealed Himself – which is Triune.

Paul clearly distanced himself from his unbelieving Jewish brethren by his following belief declaration:


But I confess this to you that according to the Way, which they say is a sect, so I worship the ancestral God believing all things according to that having been written in the Law and the Prophets, having hope toward God, which these themselves also admit, of a resurrection being about to be of the dead, both of just and unjust ones. (Acts 24.14)

Clearly, Paul builds upon the previous Hebrew prophets and is now able to worship God properly ‘according to The Way’ and according to that which had previously been written in the Torah and the prophets.

Obviously, Paul is able to see what his Jewish brethren have missed. Jews have been in denial of proper worship of God – and ‘The Way’ has laid the foundation for proper worship to God.

Proper worship of God:

But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth. For the Father also seeks such, the ones worshiping Him. God is spirit, and the ones worshiping Him must worship in spirit and truth.(John 4.23 - 24)


This proper worship is as a Triune entity:

• Father
• Son (Truth)
• Spirit


Further, the Book of Revelation shows us clearly the deity interchangeability between Father, Son and Spirit and amply demonstrates that each receives worship as the one God.

Show us that the proper worship is as a Triune entity.

You will never know truth Apple7. Pops has told you that before.

Pierac
February 11th, 2014, 10:34 PM
The NT, just like the OT, is clear that we need to worship God as He has revealed Himself – which is Triune.

Paul clearly distanced himself from his unbelieving Jewish brethren by his following belief declaration:


But I confess this to you that according to the Way, which they say is a sect, so I worship the ancestral God believing all things according to that having been written in the Law and the Prophets, having hope toward God, which these themselves also admit, of a resurrection being about to be of the dead, both of just and unjust ones. (Acts 24.14)

Clearly, Paul builds upon the previous Hebrew prophets and is now able to worship God properly ‘according to The Way’ and according to that which had previously been written in the Torah and the prophets.

Obviously, Paul is able to see what his Jewish brethren have missed. Jews have been in denial of proper worship of God – and ‘The Way’ has laid the foundation for proper worship to God.

Proper worship of God:

But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth. For the Father also seeks such, the ones worshiping Him. God is spirit, and the ones worshiping Him must worship in spirit and truth.(John 4.23 - 24)


This proper worship is as a Triune entity:

• Father
• Son (Truth)
• Spirit


Further, the Book of Revelation shows us clearly the deity interchangeability between Father, Son and Spirit and amply demonstrates that each receives worship as the one God.

You make many bold statements that have absolutely no bearing in not just the truth... but any truth! Much less Scripture !!! :doh:

I don't say this often... but your an idiot! :rolleyes:

Exactly what part of Jesus' statement did you not understand? He said... The True worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth.

If we may let our Lord and King have the final word. Jesus plainly states, "the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be his worshipers. God is spirit; and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth" (John 4:23-24). Who does Jesus declare are the "true worshipers"? He insists, "the true worshipers shall worship the Father…" If we would be amongst the true worshipers we must be with Jesus worshiping this Father. Evidently, those who worship "God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost, three persons in one God," Are not said by Jesus to be the true worshippers. Those who worship the Father as the "only true God" are.

This is the biblical pattern throughout. The so-called Lord's prayer, the model prayer, teaches us to "pray in this way: our Father who art in heaven…"(Matt. 6:9). This pattern of prayer and worship prescribed by our Lord Jesus is followed and sanctioned by every example given in Scripture. See the following:

“Now may the God who gives perseverance and encouragement grant you to be of the same mind with one another according to Christ Jesus; that with one accord you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ" (Rom.15:5-6).

" For this reason I bow my knees before the Father," (Eph 3:14)

" giving thanks always and for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, " (Eph 5:20)

" We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you, " ( Col 1:3 )

"giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in light." (Col 1:12)

"And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father "through" him." (Col 3:17)

JESUS CLEARLY TEACHES US HE ... has a God... So explain how you can be GOD and then claim to have a GOD!!! :rolleyes:


:Poly::sherlock:
Paul

Elia
February 11th, 2014, 10:55 PM
Just look at how the Jews disobeyed Yahweh and were given-up to the worship of idols, demons and false gods. How can it be that Jews proclaim the worship of one true God when all the way through their book of faith they repeatedly worshiped a whole multitude of false gods?!

Bs'd

Were there ever any pagans, any non-Jews, who worshiped the one and only true God Y-H-W-H who is one?

NO!!

And now there still aren't any.

So the Christians who worship a whole divine family, who threw Gods laws overboard and replaced them with paganism, shouldn't think they are following the one and only true God who is one.

It is the Jews who, also in times of national straying from God, upheld the worship of the one true God Y-H-W-H: "Then a voice said to him, “What are you doing here, Elijah?”
14 He replied, “I have been very zealous for Y-H-W-H God Almighty. The Israelites have rejected your covenant, torn down your altars, and put your prophets to death with the sword. I am the only one left, and now they are trying to kill me too.”
15 Y-H-W-H said to him, “Go back the way you came, and go to the Desert of Damascus. When you get there, anoint Hazael king over Aram. 16 Also, anoint Jehu son of Nimshi king over Israel, and anoint Elisha son of Shaphat from Abel Meholah to succeed you as prophet. 17 Jehu will put to death any who escape the sword of Hazael, and Elisha will put to death any who escape the sword of Jehu. 18 Yet I reserve seven thousand in Israel—all whose knees have not bowed down to Baal and whose mouths have not kissed him.”
1 Kings 19

So always there was a hard core of Jews loyal to Y-H-W-H.

The weak fall by the wayside, nowadays they assimilate, convert to false religions, and drop out of Judaism and dissappear amongst the nations, but the hard core of Jews loyal to Y-H-W-H continues the real faith, and the worship of Y-H-W-H who is one, and not three.


Only Trinitarian Christians are able to see the Creator God was He has revealed Himself.

Trinitarianism is an extra-Biblical lie. God is ONE, and not three:

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"Listen, Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is One" Holman Christian Standard Bible

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." English Standard Version

"Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!" New American Standard Bible

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." New International Version

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!" New King James Version"



"And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, "Which commandment is the first of all?" Jesus answered, "The first is, `Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, THE LORD IS ONE; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' The second is this, `You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." And the scribe said to him, "You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that HE IS ONE, and there is no other but he; and to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices." And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God."" Mark 12:28-34 Revised Standard Version

“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one." .... "You are right in saying that God is one" New International Version

"Here is the most important one. Moses said, 'Israel, listen to me. The Lord is our God. The Lord is one." .... "You are right in saying that God is one." New International Readers Version

"Jesus answered: Listen, Israel! The Lord our God, The Lord is One." .... "You have correctly said that He is One," Holman Christian Standard Bible

"Jesus answered, The first is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God, the Lord is one:" .... "thou hast well said that he is one;" American Standard Version

"Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one." New King James Version

"Jesus answered, "The most important is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one" .... "You have truly said that he is one," English Standard Version

"Jesus said, "The first in importance is, 'Listen, Israel: The Lord your God is one;" .... "A wonderful answer, Teacher! So lucid and accurate—that God is one" The Message

"‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one." .... “You are right in saying that God is one" New International Version



"Now an intermediary implies more than one; but GOD IS ONE." Gal 3:20 Revised Standard Version

"Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but GOD IS ONE" King James Version

"A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but GOD IS ONE." New International Version

"Now an intermediary implies more than one, but GOD IS ONE." English Standard Version

"Now a mediator is not a mediator of one; but GOD IS ONE." American Standard Version

"and the mediator is not of one, and GOD IS ONE" Youngs Literal Translation



"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." James 2:19 Revised Standard Version

"thou -- thou dost believe that GOD IS ONE; thou dost well," Youngs Literal translation

"Thou believest that GOD IS ONE; thou doest well:" American Standard Version

"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." Holman Christian Standard Bible.

"*Thou* believest that GOD IS ONE. Thou doest well." Darby Translation.

"It’s good that you believe that GOD IS ONE." Common English Bible

"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." English Standard Version

"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." Amplified Bible

"You believe that GOD IS ONE You do well;" New American Standard Bible


So the Bible teaches clearly that God is ONE.



"And J-e-h-o-v-a-h shall be King over all the earth: in that day shall J-e-h-o-v-a-h be one, and his name one." Zach 14:9 American Standard Version

"And the LORD shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be— “The LORD is one, And His name one." New King James Version

"And the LORD will be king over all the earth. On that day the LORD will be one and his name one." English Standard Version

"And the Lord shall be King over all the earth; in that day the Lord shall be one [in the recognition and worship of men] and His name one." Amplified Bible



In the service of Y-H-W-H,


Eliyahu, light unto the nations

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

Elia
February 11th, 2014, 11:25 PM
You obviously have no knowledge of the history of Israel if you think that the following happened during the days of Isaiah:

"Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David, and over his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and for evermore" (Isa.9:7). [/INDENT]

Bs'd

The only word in Isaiah 9 which I cannot read completely literal is "without end". I say that the Hebrew expression "eyn kets" means "an awful lot", "very much", in stead of "without end", just like Isaiah uses the same words "eyn kets" twice in chapte 2:7; "And its land is full of silver and gold, And there is no end to its treasures, And its land is full of horses, And there is no end to its chariots,"

Everybody can see here that the words "without end" are not to be taken literally, just like in Job 22:5; "Is not your wickedness great? Are not your sins without end?"

And also in Ecclesiastes 4:8 + 16; "8There is one, and there is not a second; even son or brother he hath not, and there is no end to all his labour."

"there is no end to all the people, to all who were before them."

So it is clear that the expression "without end" is not always to be taken literally.

But now look what Christianity has to do in order to make a messianic prophecy out of this: The past tense has to be changed to future tense, and then you end up with a prophecy which is NOT fulfilled by JC: JC never had any government on his shoulder. (Hezekia had)
JC never sat on the throne of David. (Hezekiah did)
JC never brought any peace. (Hezekiah did)

So what is more logical; the Christian interpretation or the Jewish interpretation?


And the word "olaam", which is translated as "for evermore" just means "a long undefined period", and is used in the Tanach for a timespan no longer than a human life.

So there would be peace in the days of Hezekiah, and not "for ever more".


You are being bamboozled by corrupted Christian Bibletranslations, because you cannot read Hebrew.



In the service of Y-H-W-H,


Eliyahu, light unto the nations

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

tomlapalm
February 12th, 2014, 07:10 AM
Dude,, you need to understand Trinitarians DO BELIEVE THAT GOD IS ONE, you are wasting ammo.

Omniskeptical
February 12th, 2014, 04:49 PM
They don't believe he acts in one manner.

Apple7
February 12th, 2014, 09:09 PM
Show us that the proper worship is as a Triune entity.

You will never know truth Apple7. Pops has told you that before.


Watch and learn, pops...

Apple7
February 12th, 2014, 09:26 PM
You make many bold statements that have absolutely no bearing in not just the truth... but any truth! Much less Scripture !!! :doh:

I don't say this often... but your an idiot! :rolleyes:

Exactly what part of Jesus' statement did you not understand? He said... The True worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth.

If we may let our Lord and King have the final word. Jesus plainly states, "the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be his worshipers. God is spirit; and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth" (John 4:23-24). Who does Jesus declare are the "true worshipers"? He insists, "the true worshipers shall worship the Father…" If we would be amongst the true worshipers we must be with Jesus worshiping this Father. Evidently, those who worship "God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost, three persons in one God," Are not said by Jesus to be the true worshippers. Those who worship the Father as the "only true God" are.



You should pay attention to Jesus when He tells you that He is The Truth...


John 14.6…Jesus

Jesus said to him, I am the Way, and The Truth (hē alētheia), and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.


In fact, ALL the way through the NT, 'The Truth' ALWAYS refers to Jesus as the subject.


John 1.9 – 17…Jesus

He was The True (to alēthinon) Light; He enlightens every man coming into the world. He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, yet the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave authority to become children of God, to the ones believing into His name, who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but were born of God. And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us. And we beheld His glory, glory as of an only begotten from the Father, full of grace and of Truth (alētheias). John witnesses concerning Him, and has cried out, saying, This One was He of whom I said, He coming after me has been before me, for He was preceding me. And out of His fullness we all received, and grace on top of grace. For the Law was given through Moses, but grace and The Truth (hē alētheia) came through Jesus Christ.



John 3.19 – 21…Jesus

And this is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness more than the Light, for their works were evil. For everyone practicing wickedness hates the Light, and does not come to the Light, that his works may not be exposed. But the one practicing The Truth (tēn alētheian) comes to the Light, that his works may be revealed, that they exist, having been worked in God.



John 5.32 – 33…Jesus

It is Another that witnesses concerning Me, and I know that the witness which He witnesses concerning Me is true. You have sent to John, and he has testified to The Truth (tē alētheia).



John 6.32 – 33…Jesus

Then Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Moses has not given you the bread out of Heaven, but My Father gives you The True (ton alēthinon) bread out of Heaven. For the bread of God is He coming down out of Heaven and giving life to the world.



John 8.31 – 46…Jesus

Then Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in Him, If you continue in My Word, you are truly My disciples. And you will know The Truth (tēn alētheian), and The Truth (hē alētheia) will set you free. They answered Him, We are Abraham's seed, and we have been in slavery to no one, never! How do You say, You will become free? Jesus answered them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Everyone practicing sin is a slave of sin. But the slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains to the age. Therefore, if the Son sets you free, you are free indeed. I know that you are Abraham's seed, but you seek to kill Me, because My Word is not given room in you. I speak what I have seen with My Father. And you therefore do what you have seen with your father. They answered and said to Him, Abraham is our father. Jesus said to them, If you were children of Abraham, you would do the works of Abraham. But now you seek to kill Me, a man who has spoken The Truth (tēn alētheian) to you, which I heard alongside of God. Abraham did not do this. You do the works of your father. They said to Him, We were not born of fornication; we have one father, God. Then Jesus said to them, If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I went forth and have come from God. For I have not come from Myself, but that One sent Me. Why do you not know My speech? It is because you are not able to hear My Word. You are of the Devil as father, and the lusts of your father you desire to do. That one was a murderer from the beginning, and he has not stood in The Truth (tē alētheia), because there is no Truth (alētheia) in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own, because he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I speak The Truth (tēn alētheian), you do not believe Me. Who of you reproves Me concerning sin? But if I speak Truth (alētheian), why do you not believe Me?



John 14.16 – 18…Jesus

And I will petition the Father, and He will give you another Comforter, that He may remain with you to the age, the Spirit of The Truth (tēs alētheias), whom the world cannot receive because it does not see Him nor know Him. But you know Him, for He abides with you and shall be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I am coming to you.



John 15.26…Jesus

And when the Comforter comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of The Truth (tēs alētheias)who proceeds from the Father, that One will witness concerning Me.



John 16.7…Jesus

But I tell you The Truth (tēn alētheian), it is advantageous for you that I should go; for if I do not go away, the Comforter will not come to you. But if I go, I will send Him to you.



John 16.13 – 14…Jesus

But when that One comes, the Spirit, TheTruth (tēs alētheias), He will guide you into all The Truth (tē alētheia), for He will not speak from Himself, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will announce the coming things to you. That One will glorify Me, for He will receive from Mine and will announce to you.



John 17.3…Jesus

And this is everlasting life, that they may know You, the only True (alēthinon) God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.




John 17.17 – 19…Jesus

Sanctify them in The Truth (tē alētheia); Your Word is Truth (alētheia). As You have sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world, and I sanctify Myself for them, that they also may be sanctified in Truth (alētheia).




John 18.37 – 38…Jesus

Then Pilate said to Him, Are You really a king? Jesus answered, You say that I am a king. For this purpose I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, that I might witness to The Truth (tē alētheia). Everyone being of The Truth (tēs alētheias) hears My voice. Pilate said to Him, What is Truth (alētheia)? And saying this, he again went out to the Jews and said to them, I do not find even one crime in Him!




1 John 2.8…Jesus

gain I write a new commandment to you which is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away, and The True (to alēthinon) Light already shines.



1 John 5.20…Jesus

And we know that the Son of God has come, and He has given to us an understanding that we may know The True (ton alēthinon) One, and we are in The True (tō alēthinō) One, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is The True (ho alēthinos) God and the life everlasting.





1 John 1.6 – 8…Jesus

If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and we walk in darkness, we lie and are not practicing The Truth (tēn alētheian). But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of His Son Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and The Truth (hē alētheia) is not in us.



1 John 2.4…Jesus

The one saying, I have known Him, and not keeping His commands is a liar, and The Truth (hē alētheia) is not in that one.



1 John 2.21 – 23…Jesus

I did not write to you because you do not know The Truth (tēn alētheian), but because you know Him, and because every lie is not of The Truth (tēs alētheias). Who is the liar, except the one denying, saying that Jesus is not the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one denying the Father and the Son. Everyone denying the Son does not have the Father. The one confessing the Son also has the Father.



1 John 3.18 – 19…Jesus

My little children, let us not love in word, or in tongue, but in deed and in Truth (alētheia). And in this we shall know that we are of The Truth (tēs alētheias), and shall persuade our hearts before Him,




1 John 4.3 – 6…Jesus

And every spirit which does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not from God; and this is the antichrist which you heard is coming, and now is already in the world. Little children, you are of God and have overcome them, because He in you is greater than he in the world. They are of the world; because of this they speak of the world, and the world hears them. We are of God; the one knowing God hears us. Whoever is not of God does not hear us. From this we know the spirit The Truth (tēs alētheias), and the spirit of error.



Spanked.

Apple7
February 12th, 2014, 09:34 PM
This is the biblical pattern throughout. The so-called Lord's prayer, the model prayer, teaches us to "pray in this way: our Father who art in heaven…"(Matt. 6:9). This pattern of prayer and worship prescribed by our Lord Jesus is followed and sanctioned by every example given in Scripture.


Jesus teaches us to pray in The Father's singular name...of which, is the same singular name as the Son and Spirit. (Mat 6.9 - 13)

See for yourself...


Mat 28.19

πορευθεντες ουν μαθητευσατε παντα τα εθνη βαπτιζοντες αυτους εις το ονομα του πατρος και του υιου και του αγιου πνευματος

Then having gone, disciple all nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,


This passage contains arthrous substantives connected via kai which indicates distinction and separate referents.

However, while distinction is made between the referents, each has the same singular name.

Three Persons in one Being.

This same singular name of three persons’ baptism is the same as the Aaronic blessing in which the singular name of Yahweh is repeated three times (Num 6.22 – 27).

Separate and yet the same, The Trinity.




Spanked.

Apple7
February 12th, 2014, 09:39 PM
“Now may the God who gives perseverance and encouragement grant you to be of the same mind with one another according to Christ Jesus; that with one accord you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ" (Rom.15:5-6).



Post your NT records and I will but in in biblical context! Context Is King


So much for your 'context' boast...



Who are Israelites, whose are the adoption and the glory, and the covenants, and the Lawgiving, and the service, and the promises; whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to flesh, He being God over all, blessed forever. Amen. (Romans 9.4 – 5)



Spanked.

Apple7
February 12th, 2014, 09:58 PM
" For this reason I bow my knees before the Father," (Eph 3:14)

" giving thanks always and for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, " (Eph 5:20)

" We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you, " ( Col 1:3 )

"giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in light." (Col 1:12)

"And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father "through" him." (Col 3:17)

JESUS CLEARLY TEACHES US HE ... has a God... So explain how you can be GOD and then claim to have a GOD!!! :rolleyes:





Matt 22.41 - 46

But the Pharisees having been gathered, Jesus questioned them, saying, What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is He? They say to Him, David's. He said to them, Then how does David in Spirit call Him Lord, saying, "The Lord said to my Lord, Sit off My right until I should put Your hostile ones as a footstool for Your feet?"(Psalm110.1) Then if David calls Him Lord, how is He his son? And no one was able to answer Him a word, nor did anyone dare from that day to question Him any more.


There you have it.

God The Father and God The Son.

Equal.

Father, Son, Spirit.

Simple Biblical Truth.




Spanked.

Apple7
February 12th, 2014, 10:01 PM
Were there ever any pagans, any non-Jews, who worshiped the one and only true God Y-H-W-H who is one?

NO!!

And now there still aren't any.


The Tanak is ripe with examples of JEWS worshipping anything OTHER than Yahweh.

keypurr
February 12th, 2014, 11:21 PM
Watch and learn, pops...

I agree with Paul, in my opinion your an idiot.

But I like you.

keypurr
February 12th, 2014, 11:25 PM
You should pay attention to Jesus when He tells you that He is The Truth...


John 14.6…Jesus

Jesus said to him, I am the Way, and The Truth (hē alētheia), and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.


In fact, ALL the way through the NT, 'The Truth' ALWAYS refers to Jesus as the subject.


John 1.9 – 17…Jesus

He was The True (to alēthinon) Light; He enlightens every man coming into the world. He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, yet the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave authority to become children of God, to the ones believing into His name, who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but were born of God. And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us. And we beheld His glory, glory as of an only begotten from the Father, full of grace and of Truth (alētheias). John witnesses concerning Him, and has cried out, saying, This One was He of whom I said, He coming after me has been before me, for He was preceding me. And out of His fullness we all received, and grace on top of grace. For the Law was given through Moses, but grace and The Truth (hē alētheia) came through Jesus Christ.



John 3.19 – 21…Jesus

And this is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness more than the Light, for their works were evil. For everyone practicing wickedness hates the Light, and does not come to the Light, that his works may not be exposed. But the one practicing The Truth (tēn alētheian) comes to the Light, that his works may be revealed, that they exist, having been worked in God.



John 5.32 – 33…Jesus

It is Another that witnesses concerning Me, and I know that the witness which He witnesses concerning Me is true. You have sent to John, and he has testified to The Truth (tē alētheia).



John 6.32 – 33…Jesus

Then Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Moses has not given you the bread out of Heaven, but My Father gives you The True (ton alēthinon) bread out of Heaven. For the bread of God is He coming down out of Heaven and giving life to the world.



John 8.31 – 46…Jesus

Then Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in Him, If you continue in My Word, you are truly My disciples. And you will know The Truth (tēn alētheian), and The Truth (hē alētheia) will set you free. They answered Him, We are Abraham's seed, and we have been in slavery to no one, never! How do You say, You will become free? Jesus answered them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Everyone practicing sin is a slave of sin. But the slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains to the age. Therefore, if the Son sets you free, you are free indeed. I know that you are Abraham's seed, but you seek to kill Me, because My Word is not given room in you. I speak what I have seen with My Father. And you therefore do what you have seen with your father. They answered and said to Him, Abraham is our father. Jesus said to them, If you were children of Abraham, you would do the works of Abraham. But now you seek to kill Me, a man who has spoken The Truth (tēn alētheian) to you, which I heard alongside of God. Abraham did not do this. You do the works of your father. They said to Him, We were not born of fornication; we have one father, God. Then Jesus said to them, If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I went forth and have come from God. For I have not come from Myself, but that One sent Me. Why do you not know My speech? It is because you are not able to hear My Word. You are of the Devil as father, and the lusts of your father you desire to do. That one was a murderer from the beginning, and he has not stood in The Truth (tē alētheia), because there is no Truth (alētheia) in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own, because he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I speak The Truth (tēn alētheian), you do not believe Me. Who of you reproves Me concerning sin? But if I speak Truth (alētheian), why do you not believe Me?



John 14.16 – 18…Jesus

And I will petition the Father, and He will give you another Comforter, that He may remain with you to the age, the Spirit of The Truth (tēs alētheias), whom the world cannot receive because it does not see Him nor know Him. But you know Him, for He abides with you and shall be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I am coming to you.



John 15.26…Jesus

And when the Comforter comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of The Truth (tēs alētheias)who proceeds from the Father, that One will witness concerning Me.



John 16.7…Jesus

But I tell you The Truth (tēn alētheian), it is advantageous for you that I should go; for if I do not go away, the Comforter will not come to you. But if I go, I will send Him to you.



John 16.13 – 14…Jesus

But when that One comes, the Spirit, TheTruth (tēs alētheias), He will guide you into all The Truth (tē alētheia), for He will not speak from Himself, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will announce the coming things to you. That One will glorify Me, for He will receive from Mine and will announce to you.



John 17.3…Jesus

And this is everlasting life, that they may know You, the only True (alēthinon) God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.




John 17.17 – 19…Jesus

Sanctify them in The Truth (tē alētheia); Your Word is Truth (alētheia). As You have sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world, and I sanctify Myself for them, that they also may be sanctified in Truth (alētheia).




John 18.37 – 38…Jesus

Then Pilate said to Him, Are You really a king? Jesus answered, You say that I am a king. For this purpose I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, that I might witness to The Truth (tē alētheia). Everyone being of The Truth (tēs alētheias) hears My voice. Pilate said to Him, What is Truth (alētheia)? And saying this, he again went out to the Jews and said to them, I do not find even one crime in Him!




1 John 2.8…Jesus

gain I write a new commandment to you which is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away, and The True (to alēthinon) Light already shines.



1 John 5.20…Jesus

And we know that the Son of God has come, and He has given to us an understanding that we may know The True (ton alēthinon) One, and we are in The True (tō alēthinō) One, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is The True (ho alēthinos) God and the life everlasting.





1 John 1.6 – 8…Jesus

If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and we walk in darkness, we lie and are not practicing The Truth (tēn alētheian). But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of His Son Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and The Truth (hē alētheia) is not in us.



1 John 2.4…Jesus

The one saying, I have known Him, and not keeping His commands is a liar, and The Truth (hē alētheia) is not in that one.



1 John 2.21 – 23…Jesus

I did not write to you because you do not know The Truth (tēn alētheian), but because you know Him, and because every lie is not of The Truth (tēs alētheias). Who is the liar, except the one denying, saying that Jesus is not the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one denying the Father and the Son. Everyone denying the Son does not have the Father. The one confessing the Son also has the Father.



1 John 3.18 – 19…Jesus

My little children, let us not love in word, or in tongue, but in deed and in Truth (alētheia). And in this we shall know that we are of The Truth (tēs alētheias), and shall persuade our hearts before Him,




1 John 4.3 – 6…Jesus

And every spirit which does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not from God; and this is the antichrist which you heard is coming, and now is already in the world. Little children, you are of God and have overcome them, because He in you is greater than he in the world. They are of the world; because of this they speak of the world, and the world hears them. We are of God; the one knowing God hears us. Whoever is not of God does not hear us. From this we know the spirit The Truth (tēs alētheias), and the spirit of error.



Spanked.

You just proved that Pierac is right.

keypurr
February 12th, 2014, 11:37 PM
So much for your 'context' boast...



Who are Israelites, whose are the adoption and the glory, and the covenants, and the Lawgiving, and the service, and the promises; whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to flesh, He being God over all, blessed forever. Amen. (Romans 9.4 – 5)



Spanked.

Not so friend.

Romans 9:5

(ASV) whose are the fathers, and of whom is Christ as concerning the flesh, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

(BBE) Whose are the fathers, and of whom came Christ in the flesh, who is over all, God, to whom be blessing for ever. So be it.

(Bishops) Of whom are the fathers, of whom as concernyng the fleshe, Christe [came,] which is God, in all thynges to be praysed for euer. Amen.

(CEV) They have those famous ancestors, who were also the ancestors of Jesus Christ. I pray that God, who rules over all, will be praised forever! Amen.

(DRB) Whose are the fathers and of whom is Christ, according to the flesh, who is over all things, God blessed for ever. Amen.

(ESV) To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

(Geneva) Of whome are the fathers, and of whome concerning the flesh, Christ came, who is God ouer all, blessed for euer, Amen.

(GNB) they are descended from the famous Hebrew ancestors; and Christ, as a human being, belongs to their race. May God, who rules over all, be praised forever! Amen.

(GW) The Messiah is descended from their ancestors according to his human nature. The Messiah is God over everything, forever blessed. Amen.

(ISV) To them belong the patriarchs, and from them, according to the flesh, Christ descended, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

(KJV) Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

(NAS77) whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

(NASB) whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

(NET.) To them belong the patriarchs, and from them, by human descent, came the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever! Amen.

(NIrV) The founders of our nation belong to them. Christ comes from their family line. He is God over all. May he always be praised! Amen.

(NIV) Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.

(NKJV) of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.

(NRSV) to them belong the patriarchs, and from them, according to the flesh, comes the Messiah, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

(NRSVA) to them belong the patriarchs, and from them, according to the flesh, comes the Messiah, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

(TNIV) Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.

(YLT) whose are the fathers, and of whom is the Christ, according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed to the ages. Amen.

Sorry Apple7 but most of the translators disagree with you.

Apple7
February 13th, 2014, 12:19 PM
Not so friend.

Romans 9:5

(ASV) whose are the fathers, and of whom is Christ as concerning the flesh, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

(BBE) Whose are the fathers, and of whom came Christ in the flesh, who is over all, God, to whom be blessing for ever. So be it.

(Bishops) Of whom are the fathers, of whom as concernyng the fleshe, Christe [came,] which is God, in all thynges to be praysed for euer. Amen.

(CEV) They have those famous ancestors, who were also the ancestors of Jesus Christ. I pray that God, who rules over all, will be praised forever! Amen.

(DRB) Whose are the fathers and of whom is Christ, according to the flesh, who is over all things, God blessed for ever. Amen.

(ESV) To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

(Geneva) Of whome are the fathers, and of whome concerning the flesh, Christ came, who is God ouer all, blessed for euer, Amen.

(GNB) they are descended from the famous Hebrew ancestors; and Christ, as a human being, belongs to their race. May God, who rules over all, be praised forever! Amen.

(GW) The Messiah is descended from their ancestors according to his human nature. The Messiah is God over everything, forever blessed. Amen.

(ISV) To them belong the patriarchs, and from them, according to the flesh, Christ descended, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

(KJV) Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

(NAS77) whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

(NASB) whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

(NET.) To them belong the patriarchs, and from them, by human descent, came the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever! Amen.

(NIrV) The founders of our nation belong to them. Christ comes from their family line. He is God over all. May he always be praised! Amen.

(NIV) Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.

(NKJV) of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.

(NRSV) to them belong the patriarchs, and from them, according to the flesh, comes the Messiah, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

(NRSVA) to them belong the patriarchs, and from them, according to the flesh, comes the Messiah, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

(TNIV) Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.

(YLT) whose are the fathers, and of whom is the Christ, according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed to the ages. Amen.

Sorry Apple7 but most of the translators disagree with you.


You just spanked yourself.

journey
February 13th, 2014, 06:59 PM
You just spanked yourself.

Yes he did - royally.

Apple7
February 13th, 2014, 08:51 PM
Yes he did - royally.

:up:

Elia
February 14th, 2014, 07:49 AM
Dude,, you need to understand Trinitarians DO BELIEVE THAT GOD IS ONE, you are wasting ammo.

Bs'd

A God made up of three persons is not one but three.

wordsponge
February 14th, 2014, 08:15 AM
Bs'd

A God made up of three persons is not one but three.
***
The BUNDLE is a decree of CONFUSION by GOD.

Monothesism is partly light due to rebellion....

The answers are not in Moses or the Tradition of the Elders
but in the persecuted and killed Prophets
and then the ISRAELITE Apostles
GOD has GLORIFIED the outcast ONES
and made them indispensable to us FOREVER...

journey
February 14th, 2014, 12:50 PM
Bs'd

A God made up of three persons is not one but three.

God the Father is in God the Son (Jesus Christ, The Word) and God the Holy Spirit.

God the Son (Jesus Christ, The Word) is in God the Father and God the Holy Spirit.

God the Holy Spirit is in God the Father and God the Son (Jesus Christ, The Word).

Three unique personages - yet the Three are One.

Apple7
February 17th, 2014, 02:50 PM
Bs'd

A God made up of three persons is not one but three.


Isa 54.5

For your Makers (plural) are your husbands (plural); Yahweh of Hosts is His name; and your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel; He is called the God of all the earth.

Elia
February 17th, 2014, 11:17 PM
God the Father is in God the Son (Jesus Christ, The Word) and God the Holy Spirit.

God the Son (Jesus Christ, The Word) is in God the Father and God the Holy Spirit.

God the Holy Spirit is in God the Father and God the Son (Jesus Christ, The Word).

Three unique personages - yet the Three are One.

Bs'd

Three is three and one is one.

Three is not one, and one is not three.

"Woe to those who call evil good and good evil,
who put darkness for light and light for darkness,
who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter."
Isaiah 5:20

WOE TO THOSE WHO CALL THREE ONE AND ONE THREE!!

journey
February 17th, 2014, 11:43 PM
Bs'd

Three is three and one is one.

Three is not one, and one is not three.

"Woe to those who call evil good and good evil,
who put darkness for light and light for darkness,
who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter."
Isaiah 5:20

WOE TO THOSE WHO CALL THREE ONE AND ONE THREE!!

WOE to you who have rejected Jesus Christ as Lord, Saviour, and God. Jesus Christ has denied you before the Father. In other words, you are lost and without God.

Matthew 10:32-33 KJV Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. 33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Here is your cure:

Romans 10:17 KJV So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

John 3:16-18 KJV For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Romans 10:8-10 KJV But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Ephesians 2:8-10 KJV For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Titus 3:4-7 KJV But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

JosephR
February 18th, 2014, 12:09 AM
WOE to you who have rejected Jesus Christ as Lord, Saviour, and God. Jesus Christ has denied you before the Father. In other words, you are lost and without God.

Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. 33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Here is your cure:

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.


whoah whoah.... I have no problem with Christ being our Lord and Savior.. but you see where I highlighted in yellow..Jesus Christ NEVER said He was the Father.. Is he Eternal,,ok,Is He Deity,,sure... but is He YHWH?

How is this supposed to make sense to anyone, you said..

Jesus Christ has denied you before the Father

Jesus Denied you before YHWH.... how does that equate Jesus is YHWH?

Elia
February 18th, 2014, 07:49 AM
For your Makers (plural) are your husbands (plural); Yahweh of Hosts is His name; and your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel; He is called the God of all the earth.

Sorry to disappoint you apple, but the Torah uses that same word with the yot that seems to make it plural, for a SINGULAR person.

See Ex 21:35-36; "“When one man’s ox hurts another’s, so that it dies, then they shall sell the live ox and divide the price of it; and the dead beast also they shall divide. 36 Or if it is known that the ox has been accustomed to gore in the past, and its owner (singular)has not kept it in, he shall pay ox for ox, and the dead beast shall be his." (also singular)

The Hebrew word for "owner" is the same; "ba'al", and both have the sam yot in the end, which seems to make it plural. However, the Torah clearly says with the word "HIS", that it is singular.

Evenso, your text from Isaiah is SINGULAR.


Have a nice day.


"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"Listen, Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is One" Holman Christian Standard Bible

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." English Standard Version

"Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!" New American Standard Bible

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." New International Version

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!" New King James Version"



"And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, "Which commandment is the first of all?" Jesus answered, "The first is, `Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, THE LORD IS ONE; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' The second is this, `You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." And the scribe said to him, "You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that HE IS ONE, and there is no other but he; and to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices." And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God."" Mark 12:28-34 Revised Standard Version

“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one." .... "You are right in saying that God is one" New International Version

"Here is the most important one. Moses said, 'Israel, listen to me. The Lord is our God. The Lord is one." .... "You are right in saying that God is one." New International Readers Version

"Jesus answered: Listen, Israel! The Lord our God, The Lord is One." .... "You have correctly said that He is One," Holman Christian Standard Bible

"Jesus answered, The first is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God, the Lord is one:" .... "thou hast well said that he is one;" American Standard Version

"Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one." New King James Version

"Jesus answered, "The most important is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one" .... "You have truly said that he is one," English Standard Version

"Jesus said, "The first in importance is, 'Listen, Israel: The Lord your God is one;" .... "A wonderful answer, Teacher! So lucid and accurate—that God is one" The Message

"‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one." .... “You are right in saying that God is one" New International Version



"Now an intermediary implies more than one; but GOD IS ONE." Gal 3:20 Revised Standard Version

"Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but GOD IS ONE" King James Version

"A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but GOD IS ONE." New International Version

"Now an intermediary implies more than one, but GOD IS ONE." English Standard Version

"Now a mediator is not a mediator of one; but GOD IS ONE." American Standard Version

"and the mediator is not of one, and GOD IS ONE" Youngs Literal Translation



"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." James 2:19 Revised Standard Version

"thou -- thou dost believe that GOD IS ONE; thou dost well," Youngs Literal translation

"Thou believest that GOD IS ONE; thou doest well:" American Standard Version

"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." Holman Christian Standard Bible.

"*Thou* believest that GOD IS ONE. Thou doest well." Darby Translation.

"It’s good that you believe that GOD IS ONE." Common English Bible

"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." English Standard Version

"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." Amplified Bible

"You believe that GOD IS ONE You do well;" New American Standard Bible


So the Bible teaches clearly that God is ONE.



"And J-e-h-o-v-a-h shall be King over all the earth: in that day shall J-e-h-o-v-a-h be one, and his name one." Zach 14:9 American Standard Version

"And the LORD shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be— “The LORD is one, And His name one." New King James Version

"And the LORD will be king over all the earth. On that day the LORD will be one and his name one." English Standard Version

"And the Lord shall be King over all the earth; in that day the Lord shall be one [in the recognition and worship of men] and His name one." Amplified Bible

chairistotle
February 18th, 2014, 08:00 AM
Bs'd

Three is three and one is one.

Three is not one, and one is not three.

"Woe to those who call evil good and good evil,
who put darkness for light and light for darkness,
who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter."
Isaiah 5:20

WOE TO THOSE WHO CALL THREE ONE AND ONE THREE!!

I have three dice. There are three of them and yet they are all dice.

By your logic, since there are three, they cannot all be dice for only one is a die.

We call this "categorical" error. They are one in one sense, and three in a different sense. There is no logical contradiction evident.

Elia
February 18th, 2014, 11:50 AM
WOE to you who have rejected Jesus Christ as Lord, Saviour, and God. Jesus Christ has denied you before the Father. In other words, you are lost and without God.

Bs'd

My God is Y-H-W-H. Except for Him there is no God.

Anybody who worships anything or anybody else than Y-H-W-H is an IDOL WORSHIPER!!




Who is the God of Israel? The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?

Christianity is very confused about this. A confusion also caused by bad Bible translations. In almost all translations the four lettered name of God, Y-H-W-H, which appears in the Hebrew Bible almost 7000 times, is not mentioned, but replaced by "the LORD".

But here are some Biblical texts which point out WHO is the God of Israel. In these verses the letters of the name of God are written, like in the original Hebrew.


“They will know that I am Y-H-W-H their God, who brought them out of Egypt so that I might dwell among them. I am Y-H-W-H their God.”

“I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of Egypt to be your God. I am Y-H-W-H your God.”

“Fear Y-H-W-H your God and serve him. Hold fast to him and take your oaths in his name. He is your praise; he is your God, who performed for you those great and awesome wonders you saw with your own eyes.”

“We too will serve Y-H-W-H , because he is our God.”

“For who is God besides Y-H-W-H ?”

“He is Y-H-W-H our God; his judgments are in all the earth”

“As for us, Y-H-W-H is our God, and we have not forsaken him”

“But I trust in you, O Y-H-W-H; I say, "You are my God.”

“For who in the skies above can compare with Y-H-W-H? Who is like Y-H-W-H among the heavenly beings?”

“I will say of Y-H-W-H , "He is my refuge and my fortress, my God, in whom I trust.”

“Know that Y-H-W-H is God. It is he who made us.”

“He is Y-H-W-H our God; his judgments are in all the earth;”

“Y-H-W-H is God, and he has made his light shine upon us.”

“O Y-H-W-H, I say to you, "You are my God”

“O Y-H-W-H, you are my God.”

“For I am Y-H-W-H , your God;”

“For I am Y-H-W-H , your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior;”

“For I am Y-H-W-H your God, who churns up the sea so that its waves roar- Y-H-W-H Almighty is his name”

“Yes, we will come to you, for you are Y-H-W-H our God”

“But Y-H-W-H is the true God; he is the living God, the eternal King.;”

“Restore me, and I will return, because you are Y-H-W-H my God.”

“O Y-H-W-H, are you not from everlasting? My God, my Holy One, we will not die.”



And is there, except for this God Y-H-W-H, any other god?



“You were shown these things so that you might know that Y-H-W-H is God; besides him there is no other.”

“Acknowledge and take to heart this day that Y-H-W-H is God in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other.”

“How great you are, O Sovereign Y-H-W-H! There is no one like you, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.”

“so that all the peoples of the earth may know that Y-H-W-H is God and that there is no other.”

“There is no one like you, O Y-H-W-H, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.”

“O Y-H-W-H, God of Israel, there is no God like you in heaven or on earth.”

“You alone are Y-H-W-H.”

“You are my witnesses," declares Y-H-W-H, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me."

“This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.”

“I am Y-H-W-H , and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me, so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides me."

“Declare what is to be, present it- let them take counsel together. Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past? Was it not I, Y-H-W-H? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me. Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.”

“Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am Y-H-W-H your God, and that there is no other;”



“And God spoke all these words: "I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME.”

Elia
February 18th, 2014, 12:02 PM
I have three dice. There are three of them and yet they are all dice.

By your logic, since there are three, they cannot all be dice for only one is a die.

Bs'd

By my logic, you have three dice.

In Christian logic, 1 + 1 + 1 = 1, and you have only one dice.

Squeaky
February 18th, 2014, 02:46 PM
ONLY ONE GOD THE FATHER-ONLY ONE Lord JESUS CHRIST
THE FATHER IS GOD-JESUS IS Lord(Not LORD)
JESUS IS NOT GOD

II Jn 1:3
3 Grace, mercy, and peace will be with you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
John 17:3
3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
1 Cor 8:5-7
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords),
6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
7 However, there is not in everyone that knowledge; for some, with consciousness of the idol, until now eat it as a thing offered to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled.
Acts 17:24-25
24 "God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands.
25 "Nor is He worshiped with men's hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things.
Eph 1:3
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
John 4:23-24
23 "But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.
24 "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
1 Pet 4:19
19 Therefore let those who suffer according to the will of God commit their souls to Him in doing good, as to a faithful Creator.
1 Cor 11:27
27 Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
Eph 4:4-6
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling;
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Eph 4:7
7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift.
I Jn 2:4
4 He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
I Jn 2:3
3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
I Jn 3:19
19 And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him.
I Jn 3:22-24
22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.
23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.
24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
I Jn 4:2-3
2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God,
3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.
I Jn 4:12-15
12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us.
13 By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.
14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.
15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.
I Jn 5:20
20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
I Jn 5:12-13
12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.
Col 1:15-16
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
Rom 1:20
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
1 Tim 1:17
17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
II Jn 1:8-11
8 Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for, but that we may receive a full reward.
9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.
10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him;
11 for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds.
Rev 22:18-19
18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;
19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Matt 11:27
27 "All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
John 14:28
28 "You have heard Me say to you, 'I am going away and coming back to you.' If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, 'I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I.
John 20:17
17 Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.'"
(NKJ)

xxx Jesus is very specific about revealing who God really is. And if you dont know who Jesus really is, how will you ever find out who God the Father really is? To confess means to agree fully. So to confess that Jesus came in the flesh, and that Jesus is the Son of God. One has to question those that say God came in the flesh, and Jesus is God. Because they do not agree fully that it was Jesus instead of God. Now God was manifested(made known) to us by Jesus that God was with Him. But Jesus also made known to us that God left Jesus on the cross to die alone. There is only One God the Father. Jesus was created by God the Father. Jesus was created a man, after Jesus proved Himself to God in obedience. God gave Jesus a ministry and a title of Lord over earth. Then after Jesus was resurrected God the Father gave Jesus a new title as a God over heaven and earth. Because Jesus purchased us from the law of sin and death(old testament).

xxJesus said He was a son of man, and God was never a man, nor a son of man.

Num 23:19
19 "God is not a man, that He should lie, nor a son of man, that He should repent. Has He said, and will He not do? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?
Matt 8:20
20 And Jesus said to him, "Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head."
Matt 9:6
6 "But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins"-- then He said to the paralytic, "Arise, take up your bed, and go to your house."
(NKJ
JESUS IS Lord

1 Cor 12:3
3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.
Phil 2:11
11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
I Jn 4:3
3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.
II Jn 1:7
7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
(NKJ)

xxxLord and God are the highest spiritual titles of authority. The Father held both titles in the old testament. In the old testament God held the title of LORD God. In the new testament God turned over the title of Lord(not LORD) to Jesus. God is the highest spiritual title of authority over the universe. Lord is the highest spiritual title of authority over the earth.


1 Cor 3:23
23 And you are Christ's, and Christ is God's.
(NKJ)


Eph 1:17
17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him,
(NKJ)

GO TO GOD THE FATHER IS THE CREATOR

chairistotle
February 18th, 2014, 02:52 PM
Bs'd

By my logic, you have three dice.

In Christian logic, 1 + 1 + 1 = 1, and you have only one dice.

They are all dice yes?

Posted from the TOL App!

Elia
February 18th, 2014, 02:56 PM
They are all dice yes?



Bs'd

All THREE of 'm.

So you have THREE dice, and not one.


And if you have three divine persons, who are all God, than you have THREE (3) gods.

chairistotle
February 18th, 2014, 03:01 PM
Bs'd

All THREE of 'm.

So you have THREE dice, and not one.


And if you have three divine persons, who are all God, than you have THREE (3) gods.

It seems that obtuse is your favorite color.

Posted from the TOL App!

journey
February 18th, 2014, 08:19 PM
whoah whoah.... I have no problem with Christ being our Lord and Savior.. but you see where I highlighted in yellow..Jesus Christ NEVER said He was the Father.. Is he Eternal,,ok,Is He Deity,,sure... but is He YHWH?

How is this supposed to make sense to anyone, you said..

Jesus Christ has denied you before the Father

Jesus Denied you before YHWH.... how does that equate Jesus is YHWH?

First, read my post again. Jesus Christ is God the Son, and He is One with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. If you deny Jesus Christ (God the Son), you also deny God the Father.

Matthew 10:32-33 KJV Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. 33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.


John 14:6-7 KJV Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

Almighty God is a Holy Trinity - yet one:


The Godhead - Also Known As The Holy Trinity

God The Father - 1st Person Of The Holy Trinity

God The Son (Jesus Christ, The Word) - 2nd Person Of The Holy Trinity

God The Holy Spirit (Holy Ghost) - 3rd Person Of The Holy Trinity

Three Unique Personages Of God - Yet One

John 1:1-3 KJV In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

John 1:1-3 AMP IN THE beginning was the Word (Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself. [Isa. 9:6.] 2 He was present originally with God. 3 All things were made and came into existence through Him; and without Him was not even one thing made that has come into being.
__________

John 1:14 KJV And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John 1:14 AMP And the Word (Christ) became flesh (human, incarnate) and tabernacled (fixed His tent of flesh, lived awhile) among us; and we [actually] saw His glory (His honor, His majesty), such glory as an only begotten son receives from his father, full of grace (favor, loving-kindness) and truth. [Isa. 40:5.]
__________

John 14:6-7 KJV Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

John 14:6-7 AMP Jesus said to him, I am the Way and the Truth and the Life; no one comes to the Father except by (through) Me. 7 If you had known Me [had learned to recognize Me], you would also have known My Father. From now on, you know Him and have seen Him.
__________

Philippians 2:5-11 KJV Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Philippians 2:5-11 AMP Let this same attitude and purpose and [humble] mind be in you which was in Christ Jesus: [Let Him be your example in humility:] 6 Who, although being essentially one with God and in the form of God [possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God], did not think this equality with God was a thing to be eagerly grasped or retained, 7 But stripped Himself [of all privileges and rightful dignity], so as to assume the guise of a servant (slave), in that He became like men and was born a human being. 8 And after He had appeared in human form, He abased and humbled Himself [still further] and carried His obedience to the extreme of death, even the death of the cross! 9 Therefore [because He stooped so low] God has highly exalted Him and has freely bestowed on Him the name that is above every name, 10 That in (at) the name of Jesus every knee should (must) bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 And every tongue [frankly and openly] confess and acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
__________

1 John 5:7 KJV For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

1 John 5:7 AMP So there are three witnesses in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are One;
__________

Jesus Christ was and is God - One with God The Father and God The Holy Spirit. The Godhead (Holy Trinity) is Eternal with no beginning and no ending. The Godhead (Holy Trinity) is the Creator - not the created. This is an unquestioned fact stated many ways in the Holy Bible - God's Word. The only way to dispute this basic Bible Fact is to use a book other than the Holy Bible. Those who reject Jesus Christ as God are unbelievers. Further, God rejects them.
__________

Matthew 10:32-33 KJV Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. 33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 10:32-33 AMP Therefore, everyone who acknowledges Me before men and confesses Me [out of a state of oneness with Me], I will also acknowledge him before My Father Who is in heaven and confess [that I am abiding in] him. 33 But whoever denies and disowns Me before men, I also will deny and disown him before My Father Who is in heaven.

Understanding that the Holy Trinity is an absolute reality solves all kinds of confusion with many portions of the Holy Bible. In other words, many portions of Scripture can't be understood until you first try to understand the Holy Trinity. Yes, the Holy Trinity is a difficult topic, but Almighty God is not simple. His ways are higher than our ways.

Here's a very simple statement from Jesus Christ himself that exposes the absolute truth of the Holy Trinity:

Matthew 28:18-20 KJV And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, [B]baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Elia
February 18th, 2014, 10:51 PM
Bs'd

The whole trinity concept is NOWHERE to be found in the Bible.

The whole Bible teaches that God is ONE, and therefore not three.

The trinity is made up in order to turn two gods into one, but 1 + 1 = 2, and not 1, no matter how often you say that 1 + 1 + 1 = 1.

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"Listen, Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is One" Holman Christian Standard Bible

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." English Standard Version

"Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!" New American Standard Bible

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." New International Version

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!" New King James Version"



"And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, "Which commandment is the first of all?" Jesus answered, "The first is, `Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, THE LORD IS ONE; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' The second is this, `You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." And the scribe said to him, "You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that HE IS ONE, and there is no other but he; and to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices." And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God."" Mark 12:28-34 Revised Standard Version

“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one." .... "You are right in saying that God is one" New International Version

"Here is the most important one. Moses said, 'Israel, listen to me. The Lord is our God. The Lord is one." .... "You are right in saying that God is one." New International Readers Version

"Jesus answered: Listen, Israel! The Lord our God, The Lord is One." .... "You have correctly said that He is One," Holman Christian Standard Bible

"Jesus answered, The first is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God, the Lord is one:" .... "thou hast well said that he is one;" American Standard Version

"Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one." New King James Version

"Jesus answered, "The most important is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one" .... "You have truly said that he is one," English Standard Version

"Jesus said, "The first in importance is, 'Listen, Israel: The Lord your God is one;" .... "A wonderful answer, Teacher! So lucid and accurate—that God is one" The Message

"‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one." .... “You are right in saying that God is one" New International Version



"Now an intermediary implies more than one; but GOD IS ONE." Gal 3:20 Revised Standard Version

"Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but GOD IS ONE" King James Version

"A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but GOD IS ONE." New International Version

"Now an intermediary implies more than one, but GOD IS ONE." English Standard Version

"Now a mediator is not a mediator of one; but GOD IS ONE." American Standard Version

"and the mediator is not of one, and GOD IS ONE" Youngs Literal Translation



"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." James 2:19 Revised Standard Version

"thou -- thou dost believe that GOD IS ONE; thou dost well," Youngs Literal translation

"Thou believest that GOD IS ONE; thou doest well:" American Standard Version

"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." Holman Christian Standard Bible.

"*Thou* believest that GOD IS ONE. Thou doest well." Darby Translation.

"It’s good that you believe that GOD IS ONE." Common English Bible

"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." English Standard Version

"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." Amplified Bible

"You believe that GOD IS ONE You do well;" New American Standard Bible


So the Bible teaches clearly that God is ONE.



"And J-e-h-o-v-a-h shall be King over all the earth: in that day shall J-e-h-o-v-a-h be one, and his name one." Zach 14:9 American Standard Version

"And the LORD shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be— “The LORD is one, And His name one." New King James Version

"And the LORD will be king over all the earth. On that day the LORD will be one and his name one." English Standard Version

"And the Lord shall be King over all the earth; in that day the Lord shall be one [in the recognition and worship of men] and His name one." Amplified Bible

journey
February 19th, 2014, 12:23 AM
Elia,

I just gave you Scripture from the Holy Bible about the Holy Trinity, so you didn't read my post. You just won a spot on my ignore list because you wish to remain blind.

JosephR
February 19th, 2014, 01:12 AM
Elia,

I just gave you Scripture from the Holy Bible about the Holy Trinity, so you didn't read my post. You just won a spot on my ignore list because you wish to remain blind.


In all you quoted to me it still says God the Father, not Jesus is God. And I can agree that Christ and God are one in ways we cannot comprehend.

Btw I don't think Elia considers New Testament a part of the Holy Bible.


Posted from the TOL App!

journey
February 19th, 2014, 02:25 AM
In all you quoted to me it still says God the Father, not Jesus is God. And I can agree that Christ and God are one in ways we cannot comprehend.

Btw I don't think Elia considers New Testament a part of the Holy Bible.


Posted from the TOL App!

I consider Elia to be a waste of my time now, so I don't care what Elia accepts as the Holy Bible. Jesus Christ is also The Word, so I did give you Scriptures. If you want more Scriptures about Jesus Christ being God, see my blogs.

Elia
February 19th, 2014, 06:33 AM
Elia,

I just gave you Scripture from the Holy Bible about the Holy Trinity, so you didn't read my post. You just won a spot on my ignore list because you wish to remain blind.

Bs'd

There is only one texts which comes close, 1 John 5:7, and that is a falsification.

So we are back to where we started: NOWHERE is it written that God is three or three in one or a trinity or anything like that.

The whole Bible teaches that God is ONE, and one is not the same as three. And three is not one. One is one, and three is three.

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"Listen, Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is One" Holman Christian Standard Bible

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." English Standard Version

"Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!" New American Standard Bible

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." New International Version

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!" New King James Version"



"And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, "Which commandment is the first of all?" Jesus answered, "The first is, `Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, THE LORD IS ONE; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' The second is this, `You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." And the scribe said to him, "You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that HE IS ONE, and there is no other but he; and to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices." And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God."" Mark 12:28-34 Revised Standard Version

“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one." .... "You are right in saying that God is one" New International Version

"Here is the most important one. Moses said, 'Israel, listen to me. The Lord is our God. The Lord is one." .... "You are right in saying that God is one." New International Readers Version

"Jesus answered: Listen, Israel! The Lord our God, The Lord is One." .... "You have correctly said that He is One," Holman Christian Standard Bible

"Jesus answered, The first is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God, the Lord is one:" .... "thou hast well said that he is one;" American Standard Version

"Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one." New King James Version

"Jesus answered, "The most important is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one" .... "You have truly said that he is one," English Standard Version

"Jesus said, "The first in importance is, 'Listen, Israel: The Lord your God is one;" .... "A wonderful answer, Teacher! So lucid and accurate—that God is one" The Message

"‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one." .... “You are right in saying that God is one" New International Version



"Now an intermediary implies more than one; but GOD IS ONE." Gal 3:20 Revised Standard Version

"Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but GOD IS ONE" King James Version

"A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but GOD IS ONE." New International Version

"Now an intermediary implies more than one, but GOD IS ONE." English Standard Version

"Now a mediator is not a mediator of one; but GOD IS ONE." American Standard Version

"and the mediator is not of one, and GOD IS ONE" Youngs Literal Translation



"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." James 2:19 Revised Standard Version

"thou -- thou dost believe that GOD IS ONE; thou dost well," Youngs Literal translation

"Thou believest that GOD IS ONE; thou doest well:" American Standard Version

"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." Holman Christian Standard Bible.

"*Thou* believest that GOD IS ONE. Thou doest well." Darby Translation.

"It’s good that you believe that GOD IS ONE." Common English Bible

"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." English Standard Version

"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." Amplified Bible

"You believe that GOD IS ONE You do well;" New American Standard Bible


So the Bible teaches clearly that God is ONE.



"And J-e-h-o-v-a-h shall be King over all the earth: in that day shall J-e-h-o-v-a-h be one, and his name one." Zach 14:9 American Standard Version

"And the LORD shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be— “The LORD is one, And His name one." New King James Version

"And the LORD will be king over all the earth. On that day the LORD will be one and his name one." English Standard Version

"And the Lord shall be King over all the earth; in that day the Lord shall be one [in the recognition and worship of men] and His name one." Amplified Bible

Elia
February 19th, 2014, 06:36 AM
I consider Elia to be a waste of my time now, so I don't care what Elia accepts as the Holy Bible. Jesus Christ is also The Word, so I did give you Scriptures. If you want more Scriptures about Jesus Christ being God, see my blogs.

Bs'd

There is only ONE God who is ONE, and his name is Y-H-W-H:





Who is the God of Israel? The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?

Christianity is very confused about this. A confusion also caused by bad Bible translations. In almost all translations the four lettered name of God, Y-H-W-H, which appears in the Hebrew Bible almost 7000 times, is not mentioned, but replaced by "the LORD".

But here are some Biblical texts which point out WHO is the God of Israel. In these verses the letters of the name of God are written, like in the original Hebrew.


Exodus 29:46 “They will know that I am Y-H-W-H their God, who brought them out of Egypt so that I might dwell among them. I am Y-H-W-H their God.”

Numbers 15:41 “I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of Egypt to be your God. I am Y-H-W-H your God.”

Deuteronomy 10:20-21 “Fear Y-H-W-H your God and serve him. Hold fast to him and take your oaths in his name. He is your praise; he is your God, who performed for you those great and awesome wonders you saw with your own eyes.”

Joshua 24:18 “We too will serve Y-H-W-H , because he is our God.”

II Samuel 22:32 “For who is God besides Y-H-W-H ?”

I Chronicles 16:14 “He is Y-H-W-H our God; his judgments are in all the earth”

II Chronicles 13:10 “As for us, Y-H-W-H is our God, and we have not forsaken him”

Psalm 31:14 “But I trust in you, O Y-H-W-H; I say, "You are my God.”

Psalm 89:6 “For who in the skies above can compare with Y-H-W-H? Who is like Y-H-W-H among the heavenly beings?”

Psalm 91:2 “I will say of Y-H-W-H , "He is my refuge and my fortress, my God, in whom I trust.”

Psalm 100:3 “Know that Y-H-W-H is God. It is he who made us.”

Psalm 105:7 “He is Y-H-W-H our God; his judgments are in all the earth;”

Psalm 118:27 “Y-H-W-H is God, and he has made his light shine upon us.”

Psalm 140:6 “O Y-H-W-H, I say to you, "You are my God”

Isaiah 25:1 “O Y-H-W-H, you are my God.”

Isaiah 41:13 “For I am Y-H-W-H , your God;”

Isaiah 43:3 “For I am Y-H-W-H , your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior;”

Isaiah 51:15 “For I am Y-H-W-H your God, who churns up the sea so that its waves roar- Y-H-W-H Almighty is his name”

Jeremiah 3:22-23 “Yes, we will come to you, for you are Y-H-W-H our God”

Jeremiah 10:10 “But Y-H-W-H is the true God; he is the living God, the eternal King.;”

Jeremiah 31:18 “Restore me, and I will return, because you are Y-H-W-H my God.”

Habakkuk 1:12 “O Y-H-W-H, are you not from everlasting? My God, my Holy One, we will not die.”



And is there, except for this God Y-H-W-H, any other god?



Deuteronomy 4:35 “You were shown these things so that you might know that Y-H-W-H is God; besides him there is no other.”

Deuteronomy 4:39 “Acknowledge and take to heart this day that Y-H-W-H is God in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other.”

II Samuel 7:22 “How great you are, O Sovereign Y-H-W-H! There is no one like you, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.”

I Kings 8:60 “so that all the peoples of the earth may know that Y-H-W-H is God and that there is no other.”

I Chronicles 17:20 “There is no one like you, O Y-H-W-H, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.”

II Chronicles 6:14 “O Y-H-W-H, God of Israel, there is no God like you in heaven or on earth.”

Nehemiah 9:6 “You alone are Y-H-W-H.”

Isaiah 45:21-23 “You are my witnesses," declares Y-H-W-H, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me."

Isaiah 44:6 “This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.”

Isaiah 45:5-6 “I am Y-H-W-H , and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me, so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides me."

Isaiah 45:21-23 “Declare what is to be, present it- let them take counsel together. Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past? Was it not I, Y-H-W-H? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me. Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.”

Joel 2:27 “Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am Y-H-W-H your God, and that there is no other;”



Exodus 20:1-3 “And God spoke all these words: "I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME.”

Elia
February 19th, 2014, 06:40 AM
baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Bs'd

The above text has no bearing on a trinity. It doesn't say that all three mentioned are separate god-persons, and it doesn't say those three are one or three in one or a trinity.

It just doesn't exist.

God is ONE!!!

Omniskeptical
February 20th, 2014, 04:00 PM
You just spanked yourself.Dummy, the 'who' always remained God, and the 'from whom' was always Jesus. Go spank yourself.

wordsponge
February 20th, 2014, 06:40 PM
So did he tell you, jokers, his secret yet...? :)

Pss.25
[14] The secret ??? of the LORD is with them that fear him;
and he will shew them his covenant.

Step up for the dance... :)

Omniskeptical
February 20th, 2014, 07:41 PM
The scriptures when honestly rendered Jesus is from he/it whom is Father and most high.

wordsponge
February 20th, 2014, 08:05 PM
You are on the right tract.
Do not be deterred.
Preserve and keep your mind for personal uses... :)
GOD and the LORD be with you..

Apple7
February 20th, 2014, 08:18 PM
Elia,

I just gave you Scripture from the Holy Bible about the Holy Trinity, so you didn't read my post. You just won a spot on my ignore list because you wish to remain blind.


She's a Jew...what can we expect...?

Apple7
February 20th, 2014, 08:19 PM
Dummy, the 'who' always remained God, and the 'from whom' was always Jesus. Go spank yourself.

Show us.

journey
February 20th, 2014, 08:29 PM
She's a Jew...what can we expect...?

You have a point there. She's not open to hearing the truth.

Apple7
February 20th, 2014, 10:37 PM
You have a point there. She's not open to hearing the truth.

The Jews that actually understood their Tanak are now called Christians.

Elia
February 21st, 2014, 03:50 AM
The Jews that actually understood their Tanak are now called Christians.

Bs'd

Jews who became Christians are now idol worshipers.




שמע ישראל י-ה-ו-ה אלהנו י-ה-ו-ה אחד

Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE.

And you shall love Y-H-W-H your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.
And these words which I command you this day shall be upon your heart;
and you shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise.
And you shall bind them as a sign upon your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.
And you shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.
Deut 6:4-9



"And God spoke all these words, saying, "I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME." Ex 20:1-3

intojoy
February 21st, 2014, 05:15 AM
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3800759

JosephR
February 21st, 2014, 05:31 AM
El the compassionate and YahWeh the jealous.

indeed the God of the Hebrews is one..

but how far do we want to see any truth?

4wings
February 21st, 2014, 06:58 AM
The Jews that actually understood their Tanak are now called Christians.

yes, this is true.

the gentiles only had to understand part of the Tanak
to start with.
as Phillip ministered to the eunuch, Acts chapter 8,
'he was led as a sheep to the slaughter...'

verse 35.
'Then Phillip opened his mouth, and beginning
at the scripture, preached Jesus to him.'

the NT had not been written, and like it says in
another place, 'the gospel was preached first to Abraham'.
.....

Pierac
February 22nd, 2014, 11:00 PM
Matt 22.41 - 46

But the Pharisees having been gathered, Jesus questioned them, saying, What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is He? They say to Him, David's. He said to them, Then how does David in Spirit call Him Lord, saying, "The Lord said to my Lord, Sit off My right until I should put Your hostile ones as a footstool for Your feet?"(Psalm110.1) Then if David calls Him Lord, how is He his son? And no one was able to answer Him a word, nor did anyone dare from that day to question Him any more.


There you have it. God The Father and God The Son. Equal.

Father, Son, Spirit.

Simple Biblical Truth.


Spanked.

Sorry, been busy.... lets review....

Joh 14:28 "You heard that I said to you, 'I go away, and I will come to you.' If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.


Out of the mouth of babes... I mean Jesus! You know the man who claims to have both a God and Father that is greater than him!!! :think:

Sux's to be you!

You make it soooo easy. Staples made a button about you! :rolleyes:

So you want to deal with Psalm110.1 :think:

Psalms 110:1 is a unusual verse. It is referred to in the New Testament 23 times and is thus quoted much more often than any other verse from the Old Testament. It’s importance must not be overlooked. It is a psalm that tells us the relationship between God and Jesus.

Psalms 110:1 is a divine utterance although poorly translated if your version leaves out the original word "oracle". It is “the oracle of Yahweh” (the One God of the Hebrew Bible, of Judaism and New Testament Christianity) to David's lord who is the Messiah, spoken of here 1000 years before he came into existence in the womb of the Virgin Mary.

I want to bring attention to the fact that David's lord is not David's Lord. There should be no capital on the word "lord." The Revised Version of the Bible (1881) corrected the misleading error of other translations which put (and still wrongly put) a capitol L on lord in that verse.

He is not Lord God, because the word in the inspired text is not the word for Deity, but the word for human superior- a human lord, not a Lord who is himself God, but a lord who is the supremely exalted, unique agent of the one God.

The Hebrew word for the status of the son of God and Psalms 110:1 is adoni. This word occurs 195 times in the Hebrew Bible and never refers to God. When God is described as "the Lord" (capital L) a different word, Adonai, appears. Thus the Bible makes a careful distinction between God and man. God is the Lord God (Adonai), or when his personal name is used, Yahweh, and Jesus is his unique, sinless, virginally conceived human son (adoni, my lord, Luke 1:43; 2:11). Adonai is found 449 times in the Old Testament and distinguishes the One God from all others. Adonai is not the word describing the son of God, Jesus, and Psalms 110:1. adoni appears 195 times and refers only to a human (or occasionally an angelic) lord, that is, someone who is not God. This should cut through a lot of complicated post Biblical argumentation and create a making which in subtle ways that secures the simple and most basic Biblical truth, that God is a single person and that the Messiah is the second Adam, "the Man Messiah" (1 Tim. 2:5).

Let's have a look at a few Old Testament verses that show us the clear distinction alluded to here. In Genesis 15:2, Abraham prays to God and says, "O LORD, God [Adonai Yahweh], what will you give me, since I am childless?" In another prayer Abraham's servant addresses God: "O LORD, God of my lord Abraham, please grant me success today" (Gen. 24:12). The second word for "my lord" here is adoni which according to any standard Hebrew lexicon means "Lord," "Master," or "owner." Another example is found in David's speech to his men after he had cut off the hem of King Saul's robe and his conscience bothered him: "So he said to his men, far be it from me because of the Lord [here the word is Yahweh, Lord God] that I should do this thing to my lord [adoni].”

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, page 157. states… "The form Adoni (‘my lord’), a royal title (Sam. 29:8), is to be carefully distinguished from the divine title Adonai (‘Lord’) used of Yahweh. Adonai the special plural form [the divine title] distinguishes it from adoni [with short vowel] = ‘my lords.’” Hastings Dictionary of the Bible, vol. 3, page 137. States… “lord in the Old Testament is used to translate Adonai when applied to the Divine Being. The [Hebrew] word… has a suffix [with a special pointing] presumably for the sake of distinction... between divine and human appellative.” Wigram, The Englishman’s Hebrew and Chaldee Concordance of the Old Testament, p. 22. states…
“The form ‘to my lord,’ I’adoni, is never used in the Old Testament as a divine reference… the general excepted fact is that the masoretic pointing distinguishes divine reference (adonai) from human references (adoni).”

“The Hebrew Adonai exclusively denotes the God of Israel. It is attested about 450 times in the Old Testament…Adoni addressed to human beings (Gen 44:7; Num 32:25; 2 Kings 2:19, etc.). We have to assume that the word Adonai received it’s special form to distinguish it from the secular use of adon [i.e. adoni]. The reason why [God is addressed] as Adonai [with long vowel] instead of the normal adon, adoni or adonai [short vowel] may have been to distinguish Yahweh from other gods and from other human Lord's.” from
Dictionary of deities and demons in the Bible, p. 531.

If David the Psalmist had expected the Messiah to be the Lord God he would not have used "my lord" (adoni), but the term used exclusively for the one God, Jehovah- Adonai. Unfortunately, though, many English translations which faithfully preserved this distinction elsewhere capitalize the second "lord" only in Psalms 110:1. This gives a misleading impression that the word is a divine title.

Occasionally, it will be objected that this distinction between Adonai and adoni was a late addition to the Hebrew text by the Mesorites around 600 to 700 AD and therefore is not reliable. This objection needs to be considered in the light of the fact that the Hebrew translators of the Septuagint (the LXX) around 250 B.C. recognize and carefully maintained this Hebrew distinction in their work. They never translated the second “lord” of Psalm 110:1 (“my lord,” [I]kyrios mou) to mean the Deity. The first LORD of Psalm 110:1 (the LORD, Ho Kyrios) they always reserve for the one God, Jehovah.

Both the Pharisees and Jesus knew that this inspired verse was crucial in the understanding of the identity of the promised Messiah. Jesus quoted it to show the Messiah would be both the son (descendent) of King David and David's “lord” (see Matt. 22:41-46; Mark 12:35-37; Luke 20:41-44). This key verse, then, quoted more than any other in the New Testament, authorizes the title "lord" for Jesus. Failure to understand this distinction has led to the erroneous idea that whenever the New Testament calls Jesus "Lord" it means he is the Lord God of the Old Testament


:Poly::sherlock:
Paul

Pierac
February 22nd, 2014, 11:15 PM
Jesus teaches us to pray in The Father's singular name...of which, is the same singular name as the Son and Spirit. (Mat 6.9 - 13)

See for yourself...


Mat 28.19

πορευθεντες ουν μαθητευσατε παντα τα εθνη βαπτιζοντες αυτους εις το ονομα του πατρος και του υιου και του αγιου πνευματος

Then having gone, disciple all nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,


This passage contains arthrous substantives connected via kai which indicates distinction and separate referents.

However, while distinction is made between the referents, each has the same singular name.

Three Persons in one Being.

This same singular name of three persons’ baptism is the same as the Aaronic blessing in which the singular name of Yahweh is repeated three times (Num 6.22 – 27).

Separate and yet the same, The Trinity.


Spanked.

That wet noodle you use to spank with is pretty lame!

Mat 28.19 has nothing what so ever to do with water baptism... Study your HEBREW before you post what your pastor teaches.


Name - This word of course brings to mind an actual name, such as John Doe. But what does it mean to a Jew.

Name - 1. designates more than the external person; it tends to express his basic character, his personality. We might say it is an emanation of the person himself. 2. authority of, expressing attributes, in acknowledgment or confession of (NABD & VED).

This definition helps us in a verse like John 17:26:

"I (Jesus) made known to them your name and I will make it known."

Jesus obviously did not come to inform the Apostles that God’s name is YHWH. He came to explain God’s character, His attributes, His will, so that we could come to truly know God and follow His ways. This understanding of the word "name" along with the definition of the next word "baptize" will clear up your misunderstood verse.


Baptize - We always think of being baptized in water, either as infants or adults. Yes, this definition is used many times in the New Testament, but there is also another meaning that we must store in the back of our minds.

Baptize - 1. to unite together, to become closely bound to (TGEL & VED).

Now we will put together the definitions of "name" and "baptize" to get the true meaning of Matthew 28:19. Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words has this commentary on this verse:

"The phrase in Matthew 28:19, ‘baptize them in the name’ would indicate that the baptized person was closely bound to, or became property of, the one in whose name he was baptized."

With these definitions we can safely paraphrase this verse as follows:

"Go out into the world and introduce or bring them into the knowledge of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit."

Which is exactly what they did. The Apostles had to go into the world and explain to the Gentiles who God is, who the Son (The Messiah) is, and also about the power that they would receive from God’s Spirit. If we take it to mean that we are to water baptize people in the actual name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit, then why is it that no one in the Bible ever uses this formula to water baptize believers?

There is a very strong position held by many scholars that this verse was not part of the original text of Matthew’s Gospel, as Eusebius, a third century Christian apologist, quoted the text in a shorter form rather than the form that now appears in the gospel. It reads,

"Go ye therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in my name" (which is in agreement with the paraphrase that was just given above).

One commentator writes,
"There is much probability in the conjecture that it is the original text of the gospel, and that in the second century the longer clause supplanted the shorter ‘baptizing them in my name.’ An insertion of this kind, derived from liturgical use, would have rapidly been adopted by copyist and translators" (The International Critical Commentary, by Willoughby C. Allen Volume 26, pp. 307-308).

This position has strong Biblical support by the fact that the Apostles at no recorded instance baptize using the formula of "The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit" as Jesus supposedly commanded them to do. They always baptize "In the name of Jesus Christ."

Also the parallel passage in Mark 16:15-18 does not mention in any way this trine formula, and the Gospel of Mark is believed to be written before Matthew.

That was easy!
:Poly::sherlock:
Paul

Elia
February 23rd, 2014, 12:39 AM
[
So you want to deal with Psalm110.1 :think: [/COLOR]

Bs'd

Psalm 110:1; "The Lord says to my lord: Sit at my right hand, till I make your enemies your footstool."

This Psalm is most likely written by an officer in David's army. It says here; The Lord, (in Hebrew Y-H-W-H) says to my lord, (in the sense of master). This is literally translated: Y-H-W-H says to my master: etc. This applies to David, just like the next verse, "The Lord sends forth from Zion your mighty scepter. Rule in the midst of your foes." This is what King David did, God made his enemies a footstool to him, and he ruled from Zion (Jerusalem). Verse 5 and 6: "The Lord is at your right hand, He will shatter kings on the day of his wrath. He will execute judgment among the nations, filling them with corpses." King David slaughtered many of his enemies, as written in this Psalm, but all these things that were never done by Jesus. Therefore it makes no sense to say that this applies to Jesus and not to king David.

-----Here is the explanation of the great Jewish sage from the Middle Ages, rabbi Moshe ben Nachman, a.k.a. the Ramban:

King David was the composer who wrote the Psalms with the aid of the holy spirit. He composed them for the purpose of having them sung before the altar of God. He himself did not sing them, nor was he permitted to do so, for that function was forbidden to him by law of the Torah. (Deuteronomy 18:6-7) Insted, he gave the Psalms to the Levites, so that they would sing them. This is clearly written in the book of I Chronicles 16:7 Therefore, King David perforce expressed the psalm in the language appropriate for utterance by the Levites. Thus, if King David had said; "The Eternal said to me", the levites repeating these words would be uttering falsehood. Instead, it is proper for the Levite to say in the Temple: "The Eternal saith unto my lord: (that is to King David) Sit thou at My right hand." The purport of the term 'sitting' is to state that the Creator, blessed be He, will protect him during his lifetime and that He will save him and cause him to prevail over his enemies. So it was, for he lifted up his spear against eight hundred, whom he slew at one time. This is the right hand of God. It is also written of David: "And Your right hand has holden me up." Psalm 18:36. It is similarly written: "The right hand of the Almighty does valiantly. The right hand of the Eternal is exalted." Psalm 118:15 Regarding Moses our teacher, peace be upon him, it is written: "He caused His glorious arm to go at the right hand of Moses." Isaiah 63:12 And Moses said at the fall of pharaoh: "Thy right hand, O Eternal, dashes the enemy in pieces." Exodus 15:6

Omniskeptical
February 23rd, 2014, 03:08 PM
Bs'd

Jews who became Christians are now idol worshipers.And if they become Unitarians?

Apple7
February 23rd, 2014, 06:48 PM
Joh 14:28 "You heard that I said to you, 'I go away, and I will come to you.' If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

In what way...?




You know the man who claims to have both a God and Father that is greater than him!!!

Already comprehended in The Trinity.






So you want to deal with Psalm110.1 :think: [/COLOR]

Psalms 110:1 is a unusual verse. It is referred to in the New Testament 23 times and is thus quoted much more often than any other verse from the Old Testament. It’s importance must not be overlooked. It is a psalm that tells us the relationship between God and Jesus.

Psalms 110:1 is a divine utterance although poorly translated if your version leaves out the original word "oracle". It is “the oracle of Yahweh” (the One God of the Hebrew Bible, of Judaism and New Testament Christianity) to David's lord who is the Messiah, spoken of here 1000 years before he came into existence in the womb of the Virgin Mary.

I want to bring attention to the fact that David's lord is not David's Lord. There should be no capital on the word "lord." The Revised Version of the Bible (1881) corrected the misleading error of other translations which put (and still wrongly put) a capitol L on lord in that verse.

He is not Lord God, because the word in the inspired text is not the word for Deity, but the word for human superior- a human lord, not a Lord who is himself God, but a lord who is the supremely exalted, unique agent of the one God.

The Hebrew word for the status of the son of God and Psalms 110:1 is adoni. This word occurs 195 times in the Hebrew Bible and never refers to God. When God is described as "the Lord" (capital L) a different word, Adonai, appears. Thus the Bible makes a careful distinction between God and man. God is the Lord God (Adonai), or when his personal name is used, Yahweh, and Jesus is his unique, sinless, virginally conceived human son (adoni, my lord, Luke 1:43; 2:11). Adonai is found 449 times in the Old Testament and distinguishes the One God from all others. Adonai is not the word describing the son of God, Jesus, and Psalms 110:1. adoni appears 195 times and refers only to a human (or occasionally an angelic) lord, that is, someone who is not God. This should cut through a lot of complicated post Biblical argumentation and create a making which in subtle ways that secures the simple and most basic Biblical truth, that God is a single person and that the Messiah is the second Adam, "the Man Messiah" (1 Tim. 2:5).

Let's have a look at a few Old Testament verses that show us the clear distinction alluded to here. In Genesis 15:2, Abraham prays to God and says, "O LORD, God [Adonai Yahweh], what will you give me, since I am childless?" In another prayer Abraham's servant addresses God: "O LORD, God of my lord Abraham, please grant me success today" (Gen. 24:12). The second word for "my lord" here is adoni which according to any standard Hebrew lexicon means "Lord," "Master," or "owner." Another example is found in David's speech to his men after he had cut off the hem of King Saul's robe and his conscience bothered him: "So he said to his men, far be it from me because of the Lord [here the word is Yahweh, Lord God] that I should do this thing to my lord [adoni].”

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, page 157. states… "The form Adoni (‘my lord’), a royal title (Sam. 29:8), is to be carefully distinguished from the divine title Adonai (‘Lord’) used of Yahweh. Adonai the special plural form [the divine title] distinguishes it from adoni [with short vowel] = ‘my lords.’” Hastings Dictionary of the Bible, vol. 3, page 137. States… “lord in the Old Testament is used to translate Adonai when applied to the Divine Being. The [Hebrew] word… has a suffix [with a special pointing] presumably for the sake of distinction... between divine and human appellative.” Wigram, The Englishman’s Hebrew and Chaldee Concordance of the Old Testament, p. 22. states…
“The form ‘to my lord,’ I’adoni, is never used in the Old Testament as a divine reference… the general excepted fact is that the masoretic pointing distinguishes divine reference (adonai) from human references (adoni).”

“The Hebrew Adonai exclusively denotes the God of Israel. It is attested about 450 times in the Old Testament…Adoni addressed to human beings (Gen 44:7; Num 32:25; 2 Kings 2:19, etc.). We have to assume that the word Adonai received it’s special form to distinguish it from the secular use of adon [i.e. adoni]. The reason why [God is addressed] as Adonai [with long vowel] instead of the normal adon, adoni or adonai [short vowel] may have been to distinguish Yahweh from other gods and from other human Lord's.” from
Dictionary of deities and demons in the Bible, p. 531.

If David the Psalmist had expected the Messiah to be the Lord God he would not have used "my lord" (adoni), but the term used exclusively for the one God, Jehovah- Adonai. Unfortunately, though, many English translations which faithfully preserved this distinction elsewhere capitalize the second "lord" only in Psalms 110:1. This gives a misleading impression that the word is a divine title.

Occasionally, it will be objected that this distinction between Adonai and adoni was a late addition to the Hebrew text by the Mesorites around 600 to 700 AD and therefore is not reliable. This objection needs to be considered in the light of the fact that the Hebrew translators of the Septuagint (the LXX) around 250 B.C. recognize and carefully maintained this Hebrew distinction in their work. They never translated the second “lord” of Psalm 110:1 (“my lord,” [I]kyrios mou) to mean the Deity. The first LORD of Psalm 110:1 (the LORD, Ho Kyrios) they always reserve for the one God, Jehovah.

Both the Pharisees and Jesus knew that this inspired verse was crucial in the understanding of the identity of the promised Messiah. Jesus quoted it to show the Messiah would be both the son (descendent) of King David and David's “lord” (see Matt. 22:41-46; Mark 12:35-37; Luke 20:41-44). This key verse, then, quoted more than any other in the New Testament, authorizes the title "lord" for Jesus. Failure to understand this distinction has led to the erroneous idea that whenever the New Testament calls Jesus "Lord" it means he is the Lord God of the Old Testament


Psalm 110 is Trinitarian.

Jesus’ reference to Psalm 110 further distinguishes God The Spirit, from God The Father, and God The Son.

And teaching in the temple, answering, Jesus said, How do the scribes say that Christ is the son of David? For David himself said by the Holy Spirit, ‘The Lord said to my Lord, Sit off My right until I place Your enemies as a footstool for Your feet.’ Then David himself calls Him Lord. And from where is He his son? And the large crowd heard Him gladly. (Mark 12.35 – 37)

Apple7
February 23rd, 2014, 06:50 PM
That wet noodle you use to spank with is pretty lame!

Mat 28.19 has nothing what so ever to do with water baptism... Study your HEBREW before you post what your pastor teaches.


Name - This word of course brings to mind an actual name, such as John Doe. But what does it mean to a Jew.

Name - 1. designates more than the external person; it tends to express his basic character, his personality. We might say it is an emanation of the person himself. 2. authority of, expressing attributes, in acknowledgment or confession of (NABD & VED).

This definition helps us in a verse like John 17:26:

"I (Jesus) made known to them your name and I will make it known."

Jesus obviously did not come to inform the Apostles that God’s name is YHWH. He came to explain God’s character, His attributes, His will, so that we could come to truly know God and follow His ways. This understanding of the word "name" along with the definition of the next word "baptize" will clear up your misunderstood verse.


Baptize - We always think of being baptized in water, either as infants or adults. Yes, this definition is used many times in the New Testament, but there is also another meaning that we must store in the back of our minds.

Baptize - 1. to unite together, to become closely bound to (TGEL & VED).

Now we will put together the definitions of "name" and "baptize" to get the true meaning of Matthew 28:19. Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words has this commentary on this verse:

"The phrase in Matthew 28:19, ‘baptize them in the name’ would indicate that the baptized person was closely bound to, or became property of, the one in whose name he was baptized."

With these definitions we can safely paraphrase this verse as follows:

"Go out into the world and introduce or bring them into the knowledge of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit."

Which is exactly what they did. The Apostles had to go into the world and explain to the Gentiles who God is, who the Son (The Messiah) is, and also about the power that they would receive from God’s Spirit. If we take it to mean that we are to water baptize people in the actual name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit, then why is it that no one in the Bible ever uses this formula to water baptize believers?

There is a very strong position held by many scholars that this verse was not part of the original text of Matthew’s Gospel, as Eusebius, a third century Christian apologist, quoted the text in a shorter form rather than the form that now appears in the gospel. It reads,

"Go ye therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in my name" (which is in agreement with the paraphrase that was just given above).

One commentator writes,
"There is much probability in the conjecture that it is the original text of the gospel, and that in the second century the longer clause supplanted the shorter ‘baptizing them in my name.’ An insertion of this kind, derived from liturgical use, would have rapidly been adopted by copyist and translators" (The International Critical Commentary, by Willoughby C. Allen Volume 26, pp. 307-308).

This position has strong Biblical support by the fact that the Apostles at no recorded instance baptize using the formula of "The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit" as Jesus supposedly commanded them to do. They always baptize "In the name of Jesus Christ."

Also the parallel passage in Mark 16:15-18 does not mention in any way this trine formula, and the Gospel of Mark is believed to be written before Matthew.

That was easy!
:Poly::sherlock:
Paul


You posted the WRONG, tired, and worn-out word document!

No one is talking about 'water baptism' except you...

Elia
February 23rd, 2014, 10:32 PM
Psalm 110 is Trinitarian.

Bs'd

The whole Bible teaches that God is ONE.

A trinity is NOWHERE to be found in Scripture. Its a Christian invention in order to cover up their idolatry.

Pierac
February 24th, 2014, 10:16 PM
:think:
In what way...?
Already comprehended in The Trinity.
Psalm 110 is Trinitarian.
Jesus’ reference to Psalm 110 further distinguishes God The Spirit, from God The Father, and God The Son.
And teaching in the temple, answering, Jesus said, How do the scribes say that Christ is the son of David? For David himself said by the Holy Spirit, ‘ The Lord said to my Lord , Sit off My right until I place Your enemies as a footstool for Your feet.’ Then David himself calls Him Lord. And from where is He his son? And the large crowd heard Him gladly. (Mark 12.35 – 37)


You posted the WRONG, tired, and worn-out word document!

No one is talking about 'water baptism' except you...

OMG... your making me post like Forest Gump! :rolleyes: Your Stupid is... as Stupid does... :think:

So show me in scripture how your traditions of men... teaches... that David was actually... himself said by the Holy Spirit,

I keep reading Psalm 110 and only see you reading INTO scripture... BUT never out of scripture? :doh:

So what IS the Holy Spirit YOU THINK IS A 3RD BEING OF GOD!!! ... (Pay attentions to Jesus' words!!! )

I'm GOING TO GIVE YOU THE FINGER... only then will you see the SPIRIT!!! :jawdrop:

If you took the time to read in Exodus... You would come upon the phrase "the finger of God." then if you would be (but not Likely) aware that the same phrase was used in the book of Luke regarding the method Jesus uses to cast out demons. You might decided to do a actual study on what JESUS WAS TALKING ABOUT!!!

Exo 8:19 Then the magicians said to Pharaoh, "This is the finger of God." But Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he would not listen to them, as the LORD had said.

Exo 31:18 And he gave to Moses, when he had finished speaking with him on Mount Sinai, the two tablets of the testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.

Luk 11:14 Now he was casting out a demon that was mute. When the demon had gone out, the mute man spoke, and the people marveled. 15 But some of them said, "He casts out demons by beelzebul, the prince of demons," 16 while others, to test him, kept seeking from him a sign from heaven…

Luk 11:20 But if it is by the finger of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.


You would also... come upon Scriptures that says Jesus cast out demons by the Spirit of God. This would strongly lead to the conclusion that the finger of God is the Spirit of the Father.

Dunn in his book, Christology in the Making adds, “The continuity of thought between Hebraic and Christian understanding of the Spirit is generally recognized…There can be little doubt that from the earliest stages of pre-Christian Judaism "spirit” (ruach) denoted power - the awful, mysterious force of the wind (ruach), of the breath (ruach) of life, of ecstatic inspiration (induced by divine ruach)… in particular, "Spirit of God" denotes effective divine power… In other words, on this understanding, Spirit of God is in no sense distinct from God, but is simply the power of God, God himself acting powerfully in nature and upon men.”

This fits nicely to what the Hebrews thought about the Spirit in the Old Testament.

Mat 12:22 Then a demon-oppressed man who was blind and mute was brought to him, and he healed him, so that the man spoke and saw. 23 And all the people were amazed, and said, "Can this be the Son of David?" 24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, "It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this man casts out demons." 28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

When you connect Luke 11:20 with Matthew 12:28 then you get the understanding of what the finger of God is.

Luke 11:20 But if it is by the finger of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

Mat 12:28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

Now the same is true with the Holy Spirit. We also have in the Bible two parallel teachings of the same subject one in Matthew and one in Luke.

Luke 12:11 And when they bring you before the synagogues and the rulers and the authorities, do not be anxious about how you should defend yourself or what you should say, 12 for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say."

Mat 10:19 When they deliver you over, do not be anxious how you are to speak or what you are to say, for what you are to say will be given to you in that hour. 20 For it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.


Likewise, when you connect to Matthew 10:20 with Luke 12:12 you get an understanding of what the Holy Spirit is. It is the Spirit of the Father. There is no separate being called the Holy Spirit.


That's why the Holy Spirit is never worshiped or prayed to.

You can let go of your theological ankles now!!!
That was Easy!!!
:Poly::sherlock:
Paul

Pierac
February 24th, 2014, 10:53 PM
You posted the WRONG, tired, and worn-out word document!

No one is talking about 'water baptism' except you...

Thanks for agreeing with me... As any Biblical Context ... has nothing what so ever to do with any Trinity! :thumb:

Thanks for being honest!
:Poly::sherlock:
Paul

Lazy afternoon
February 25th, 2014, 03:18 PM
Water baptism and Spirit baptism go together.

It is not just one or the other--

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Baptism in His name, is the baptism in the name of Christ which is the name which has no greater in Heaven or on earth, for it is the Fathers revealed name given to His Son and also to other true sons.

LA

wordsponge
February 25th, 2014, 10:08 PM
Water baptism and Spirit baptism go together.

It is not just one or the other--

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Baptism in His name, is the baptism in the name of Christ which is the name which has no greater in Heaven or on earth, for it is the Fathers revealed name given to His Son and also to other true sons.
LA
***
There is a response and an invisible side...

GOD has cut off the disobedient.
They also believe that GOD will never do that...
He lives and he works...

Pierac
February 25th, 2014, 10:50 PM
Water baptism and Spirit baptism go together.

It is not just one or the other--

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Baptism in His name, is the baptism in the name of Christ which is the name which has no greater in Heaven or on earth, for it is the Fathers revealed name given to His Son and also to other true sons.

LA

Really? How do we deal with this...

Act 19:1 It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples. 2 He said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said to him, "No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit." 3 And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" And they said, "Into John's baptism." 4 Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus." Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.

Not so simple to explain now it is! :think:

So in modern Christianity... who can laid his hands upon us and do the same? :think:

Sux's to be a seeker of the truth, instead of the follower of men! :AMR:

You can be sure... no pastor of men today preforms this task that Paul did...!!

We have much to learn...
:Poly::sherlock:
Paul

Apple7
February 27th, 2014, 10:21 PM
:think:



OMG... your making me post like Forest Gump! :rolleyes: I love you very much... as Stupid does... :think:

So show me in scripture how your traditions of men... teaches... that David was actually... himself said by the Holy Spirit,

I keep reading Psalm 110 and only see you reading INTO scripture... BUT never out of scripture? :doh:

So what IS the Holy Spirit YOU THINK IS A 3RD BEING OF GOD!!! ... (Pay attentions to Jesus' words!!! )

I'm GOING TO GIVE YOU MY LOVE CHILD... only then will you see the SPIRIT!!! :jawdrop:

If you took the time to read in Exodus... You would come upon the phrase "the finger of God." then if you would be (but not Likely) aware that the same phrase was used in the book of Luke regarding the method Jesus uses to cast out demons. You might decided to do a actual study on what JESUS WAS TALKING ABOUT!!!

Exo 8:19 Then the magicians said to Pharaoh, "This is the finger of God." But Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he would not listen to them, as the LORD had said.

Exo 31:18 And he gave to Moses, when he had finished speaking with him on Mount Sinai, the two tablets of the testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.

Luk 11:14 Now he was casting out a demon that was mute. When the demon had gone out, the mute man spoke, and the people marveled. 15 But some of them said, "He casts out demons by beelzebul, the prince of demons," 16 while others, to test him, kept seeking from him a sign from heaven…

Luk 11:20 But if it is by the finger of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.


You would also... come upon Scriptures that says Jesus cast out demons by the Spirit of God. This would strongly lead to the conclusion that the finger of God is the Spirit of the Father.

Dunn in his book, Christology in the Making adds, “The continuity of thought between Hebraic and Christian understanding of the Spirit is generally recognized…There can be little doubt that from the earliest stages of pre-Christian Judaism "spirit” (ruach) denoted power - the awful, mysterious force of the wind (ruach), of the breath (ruach) of life, of ecstatic inspiration (induced by divine ruach)… in particular, "Spirit of God" denotes effective divine power… In other words, on this understanding, Spirit of God is in no sense distinct from God, but is simply the power of God, God himself acting powerfully in nature and upon men.”

This fits nicely to what the Hebrews thought about the Spirit in the Old Testament.

Mat 12:22 Then a demon-oppressed man who was blind and mute was brought to him, and he healed him, so that the man spoke and saw. 23 And all the people were amazed, and said, "Can this be the Son of David?" 24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, "It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this man casts out demons." 28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

When you connect Luke 11:20 with Matthew 12:28 then you get the understanding of what the finger of God is.

Luke 11:20 But if it is by the finger of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

Mat 12:28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

Now the same is true with the Holy Spirit. We also have in the Bible two parallel teachings of the same subject one in Matthew and one in Luke.

Luke 12:11 And when they bring you before the synagogues and the rulers and the authorities, do not be anxious about how you should defend yourself or what you should say, 12 for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say."

Mat 10:19 When they deliver you over, do not be anxious how you are to speak or what you are to say, for what you are to say will be given to you in that hour. 20 For it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.


Likewise, when you connect to Matthew 10:20 with Luke 12:12 you get an understanding of what the Holy Spirit is. It is the Spirit of the Father. There is no separate being called the Holy Spirit.


That's why the Holy Spirit is never worshiped or prayed to.

You can let go of your theological ankles now!!!
That was Easy!!!
:Poly::sherlock:
Paul


Come to The Truth of The Trinity.

Elia
March 2nd, 2014, 02:44 AM
Come to The Truth of The Trinity.

Bs'd

The idolatrous trinity lie is NOWHERE to be found in Scripture.

All of Scripture teaches that God is ONE:

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"Listen, Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is One" Holman Christian Standard Bible

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." English Standard Version

"Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!" New American Standard Bible

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." New International Version

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!" New King James Version"



"And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, "Which commandment is the first of all?" Jesus answered, "The first is, `Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, THE LORD IS ONE; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' The second is this, `You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." And the scribe said to him, "You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that HE IS ONE, and there is no other but he; and to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices." And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God."" Mark 12:28-34 Revised Standard Version

“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one." .... "You are right in saying that God is one" New International Version

"Here is the most important one. Moses said, 'Israel, listen to me. The Lord is our God. The Lord is one." .... "You are right in saying that God is one." New International Readers Version

"Jesus answered: Listen, Israel! The Lord our God, The Lord is One." .... "You have correctly said that He is One," Holman Christian Standard Bible

"Jesus answered, The first is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God, the Lord is one:" .... "thou hast well said that he is one;" American Standard Version

"Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one." New King James Version

"Jesus answered, "The most important is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one" .... "You have truly said that he is one," English Standard Version

"Jesus said, "The first in importance is, 'Listen, Israel: The Lord your God is one;" .... "A wonderful answer, Teacher! So lucid and accurate—that God is one" The Message

"‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one." .... “You are right in saying that God is one" New International Version



"Now an intermediary implies more than one; but GOD IS ONE." Gal 3:20 Revised Standard Version

"Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but GOD IS ONE" King James Version

"A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but GOD IS ONE." New International Version

"Now an intermediary implies more than one, but GOD IS ONE." English Standard Version

"Now a mediator is not a mediator of one; but GOD IS ONE." American Standard Version

"and the mediator is not of one, and GOD IS ONE" Youngs Literal Translation



"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." James 2:19 Revised Standard Version

"thou -- thou dost believe that GOD IS ONE; thou dost well," Youngs Literal translation

"Thou believest that GOD IS ONE; thou doest well:" American Standard Version

"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." Holman Christian Standard Bible.

"*Thou* believest that GOD IS ONE. Thou doest well." Darby Translation.

"It’s good that you believe that GOD IS ONE." Common English Bible

"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." English Standard Version

"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." Amplified Bible

"You believe that GOD IS ONE You do well;" New American Standard Bible


So the Bible teaches clearly that God is ONE.



"And J-e-h-o-v-a-h shall be King over all the earth: in that day shall J-e-h-o-v-a-h be one, and his name one." Zach 14:9 American Standard Version

"And the LORD shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be— “The LORD is one, And His name one." New King James Version

"And the LORD will be king over all the earth. On that day the LORD will be one and his name one." English Standard Version

"And the Lord shall be King over all the earth; in that day the Lord shall be one [in the recognition and worship of men] and His name one." Amplified Bible

Apple7
March 2nd, 2014, 06:38 PM
All of Scripture teaches that God is ONE:

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"


One Trinity.

:cigar:

Elia
March 3rd, 2014, 11:51 AM
One Trinity.



Bs'd

"Woe to those who call evil good and good evil,
who put darkness for light and light for darkness,
who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter."
Isaiah 5:20

WOE TO THOSE WHO CALL THREE ONE AND ONE THREE!!

Pierac
March 4th, 2014, 01:26 PM
I have Come to The Truth of The Trinity being the Traditions of Men !!!

Your Welcome!

:Poly::sherlock:
Paul

ttruscott
March 4th, 2014, 02:38 PM
One means Unity or 'a unity.'

Peace, Ted