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rstrats
February 17th, 2013, 07:43 AM
Whenever the three days and three nights of Matthew 12:40 is brought up in a “discussion” with 6th day crucifixion folks, they frequently argue that it is a common Jewish idiom for counting any part of a day as a whole day. I wonder if anyone has documentation that shows that a phrase stating a certain number of days, as well as a certain number of nights was ever used in the first century or before when it absolutely didn’t include at least parts of the specified number of days and at least parts of the specified number of nights?

rainee
February 17th, 2013, 08:05 AM
I don't know about the first century but there is a Biblical example of something similar if not exactly the same kind of language:


1 Samuel 30
11 Now they found an Egyptian in the field and brought him to David, and gave him bread and he ate, and they provided him water to drink.

12 They gave him a piece of fig cake and two clusters of raisins, and he ate; then his spirit revived. For he had not eaten bread or drunk water for three days and three nights.

13 David said to him, “To whom do you belong? And where are you from?” And he said, “I am a young man of Egypt, a servant of an Amalekite; and my master left me behind when I fell sick three days ago.


In this section three days and three nights count as three days and vice versa. Which means somewhere an afternoon, evening or a morning is being counted as a whole, right?

oatmeal
February 17th, 2013, 09:16 AM
Whenever the three days and three nights of Matthew 12:40 is brought up in a “discussion” with 6th day crucifixion folks, they frequently argue that it is a Jewish idiom for counting any part of a day as a whole day. I wonder if anyone has documentation that shows that a phrase stating a certain number of days, as well as a certain number of nights was ever used in the first century or before when it absolutely didn’t include at least parts of the specified number of days and at least parts of the specified number of nights?

When the word "day" is used it could mean a part of a day or other meanings, however when day and night is used, it means 24 hour periods of time.

rstrats
February 18th, 2013, 10:40 AM
rainee,

re: "I don't know about the first century..."

That's ok because I also wrote: "or before".



re: "... there is a Biblical example of something similar if not exactly the same kind of language...1 Samuel 30:11-13 "

I'm afraid I don't see where those scriptures show a period of time that absolutely can't include at least a part of each one of the 3 days and at least a part of each one of the three nights.

rstrats
April 2nd, 2013, 07:57 PM
Since it's been awhile, perhaps someone new looking in will know of some writing.

resurrected
April 2nd, 2013, 07:59 PM
... 6th day crucifixion folks ...



Never heard of them


do you have an infestation of them where you live?

steko
April 2nd, 2013, 08:46 PM
In the Jerusalem Talmud there is a quote by rabbi Eleazar ben Azariah, who lived around A.D. 100: “A day and night are an Onah [‘a portion of time’] and the portion of an Onah is as the whole of it” (from Jerusalem Talmud: Shabbath ix. 3, as quoted in Hoehner, 1974, pp. 248-249, bracketed comment in orig.). Azariah was referring to that a portion of a twenty-four hour period could be considered the same “as the whole of it.”

rstrats
November 8th, 2013, 03:59 PM
resurrected,

re: "Never heard of them"

I wonder how it's possible that you've never heard of anyone who believes that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week?



re: "do you have an infestation of them where you live?"

Yes, they are all over the place.

rstrats
November 8th, 2013, 04:13 PM
steko,

re: "Azariah was referring to that a portion of a twenty-four hour period could be considered the same 'as the whole of it.'”


As regards the Jewish practice of counting any part of a day as a whole day I would agree, but when "nights" is added to "days" to yield the phrase "x" days AND "x" nights it normally refers to a measurement of a consecutive time period where "day" refers to the light portion of a 24 hour period and "night" refers to the dark portion of a 24 hour period. No one In the history of apologetics as far as I know has ever presented any historical documentation that the phrase "x" days AND "x" nightsťwas a unique first century idiom of Hebrew/Aramaic/Greek which had to mean something different than what the phrase means in English.. If you have such documentation, I would very much like to see it.

Squeaky
November 8th, 2013, 04:16 PM
Matt 20:6-14
6 "And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing idle, and said to them, 'Why have you been standing here idle all day?'
7 "They said to him, 'Because no one hired us.' He said to them, 'You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right you will receive.'
8 "So when evening had come, the owner of the vineyard said to his steward, 'Call the laborers and give them their wages, beginning with the last to the first.'
9 "And when those came who were hired about the eleventh hour, they each received a denarius.
10 "But when the first came, they supposed that they would receive more; and they likewise received each a denarius.
11 "And when they had received it, they complained against the landowner,
12 "saying, 'These last men have worked only one hour, and you made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the heat of the day.'
13 "But he answered one of them and said, 'Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Did you not agree with me for a denarius?
14 'Take what is yours and go your way. I wish to give to this last man the same as to you.
(NKJ)

rstrats
November 8th, 2013, 04:38 PM
Squeaky,

I don't see where your post shows a phrase stating a certain number of days, and or a certain number of nights where it absolutely couldn't have included at least parts of the specified number of days and at least parts of the specified number of nights?

jamie
November 8th, 2013, 04:45 PM
rstrats, I'm curious as to why a Jewish idiom would make any difference one way or another? Where are you going with this, maybe I can help you.

JosephR
November 8th, 2013, 05:45 PM
They will not give up there pagan holidays and traditions so matter how you slice it. they will say good friday to easter sunday... even tho at best thats 2 days.. At least they agree he didnt work on this sabbath :)

genuineoriginal
November 8th, 2013, 06:10 PM
Whenever the three days and three nights of Matthew 12:40 is brought up in a “discussion” with 6th day crucifixion folks, they frequently argue that it is a Jewish idiom for counting any part of a day as a whole day. I wonder if anyone has documentation that shows that a phrase stating a certain number of days, as well as a certain number of nights was ever used in the first century or before when it absolutely didn’t include at least parts of the specified number of days and at least parts of the specified number of nights?

There are some people that are so hung up in counting the minutes that Jesus was dead and buried that they have Him dying in the afternoon of the fourth day of the week and rising in the afternoon of the seventh day of the week.

jamie
November 8th, 2013, 06:27 PM
There are some people that are so hung up in counting the minutes that Jesus was dead and buried that they have Him dying in the afternoon of the fourth day of the week and rising in the afternoon of the seventh day of the week.


The sign Jesus gave that he was the Messiah is that he would be buried for three days and three nights, not how long he would be dead.

Jesus died on Nisan 14, 30 CE. Just as he was placed in the tomb a Sabbath began.


This man went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. Then he took it down and wrapped it in a linen shroud and laid him in a rock-hewn tomb where no one had ever yet been laid. It was the day of Preparation and the sabbath was beginning.
(Luke 23:52-54 RSV)

Jesus said he would be buried for three day and three nights. The Sabbath that began as he was placed in the tomb was the first annual Sabbath of the seven day Passover season.

Jesus was resurrected as the first day of the weeks leading to Pentecost began, which was the beginning of Sunday. Backtracking from his resurrection we have Saturday, Friday, and Thursday for the three days meaning Jesus died on Wednesday afternoon, Nisan 14, 30 CE.

Jesus was placed in his tomb as Thursday, Nisan 15 began. He was in the tomb the evening and the day of Thursday, the evening and the day of Friday, and the evening and the day of Saturday and at sunset on Saturday he was resurrected as Sunday began. He was raised on the first day of the week and seven weeks and one day later was the Pentecost of 30 CE recorded in Acts.

rstrats
November 8th, 2013, 06:44 PM
jamie,

re: " Where are you going with this..."

For the purpose of this topic I'm not going any place with it. I simply would like to see the writing requested in the OP.

I should have addressed the OP to those who think that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week and who try to get around Matthew 12:40 by saying that it is a common Jewish idiom where 3 nights actually means 2 nights.

genuineoriginal
November 8th, 2013, 07:28 PM
I should have addressed the OP to those who think that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week and who try to get around Matthew 12:40 by saying that it is a common Jewish idiom where 3 nights actually means 2 nights.
I am amazed at how you found a way for Jesus to be crucified two days before He said He would be crucified and raised one day before He said He would be raised.


Luke 24:7
Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.


Luke 24:21
But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.


Luke 24:46
And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

rstrats
November 8th, 2013, 08:11 PM
genuineoriginal,

re: "I am amazed at how you found a way for Jesus to be crucified two days before He said He would be crucified and raised one day before He said He would be raised."

You quoted my comment, but I don't see what your comment has to do with it. I wonder if you might explain?

jamie
November 8th, 2013, 08:25 PM
I should have addressed the OP to those who think that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week and who try to get around Matthew 12:40 by saying that it is a common Jewish idiom where 3 nights actually means 2 nights.


Ok, but the actual sign was how long he would be in the ground. As he was buried a Sabbath began.

steko
November 8th, 2013, 08:35 PM
Ok, but the actual sign was how long he would be in the ground. As he was buried a Sabbath began. The women came to the tomb before sunrise so if he was crucified on a Friday he would only have been in the ground one night and no days.

There is no way, but have fun.

The actual sign would be His greatest miracle, 'rising from the dead'.
The LORD rose 'on' the third day, as He said He would, not 'on' the fourth day.
He was not crucified on the 14th, but on the 15th. He ate the passover with His disciples after sundown of the 14th and the beginning of the 15th according to GOD's appointed times for Israel. He was crucified the next morning, still the 15th.

intojoy
November 8th, 2013, 08:52 PM
Ask any Jew. Ask Ben Masada he would discredit the three days three nights in heart beat if he could just to try and blemish the apostles and The Lord and so would the Jewish community of the first century had there been any hint of falsehood related to the statement. There's nothing there
End of thread


Posted from the TOL App!

jamie
November 8th, 2013, 08:59 PM
He was not crucified on the 14th, but on the 15th. He ate the passover with His disciples after sundown of the 14th and the beginning of the 15th according to GOD's appointed times for Israel. He was crucified the next morning, still the 15th.


Nisan 15 is a Sabbath. The Sabbath begins at sunset of the 14th and the Passover is eaten the evening that begins the 15th.

For the Passover to be eaten the evening of the 15th it must be sacrificed on the afternoon of the 14th.


Therefore, because it was the Preparation Day, that the bodies should not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken and that they might be taken away. (John 19:31)


This man went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. Then he took it down and wrapped it in a linen shroud and laid him in a rock-hewn tomb where no one had ever yet been laid. It was the day of Preparation and the sabbath was beginning.
(Luke 23:53-54 RSV)

steko
November 8th, 2013, 09:08 PM
Nisan 15 is a Sabbath. The Sabbath begins at sunset of the 14th and the Passover is eaten the evening that begins the 15th.

For the Passover to be eaten the evening of the 15th it must be sacrificed on the afternoon of the 14th.

That's what I said, except for the Sabbath part.



Therefore, because it was the Preparation Day, that the bodies should not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken and that they might be taken away. (John 19:31)

Paraskeue means 'preparation' for the weekly seventh day Sabbath.
It is the word used for Friday in Greece, today and since the first century.
A 'high day' is a feast day which lands on a seventh day weekly Sabbath. That day began the counting of the omer. (see Edersheim)



This man went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. Then he took it down and wrapped it in a linen shroud and laid him in a rock-hewn tomb where no one had ever yet been laid. It was the day of Preparation and the sabbath was beginning.
(Luke 23:53-54 RSV)[/QUOTE]

Again 'preparation/paraskeue' is the sixth day preparation for the weekly Sabbath.

genuineoriginal
November 8th, 2013, 10:41 PM
You quoted my comment, but I don't see what your comment has to do with it. I wonder if you might explain?
I am merely pointing out that building a case for a Wednesday afternoon burial on the single verse Matthew 12:40 means that you have a lot more verses to explain away than the people that build a case for a Friday afternoon burial on those other verses.

To prove the point, I provided three verses from Luke 24 that are completely unable to fit inside a Wednesday afternoon to Saturday afternoon burial scenario.

When all the verses that indicate the time of the burial and resurrection are taken together, the only verse that doesn't fit any conceivable timeline is Matthew 12:40, and it is only impossible to make it fit when you interpret it to mean 72 hours.

jamie
November 9th, 2013, 05:21 AM
To prove the point, I provided three verses from Luke 24 that are completely unable to fit inside a Wednesday afternoon to Saturday afternoon burial scenario.


Jesus was not buried on Wednesday afternoon. Jesus was not resurrected on Saturday afternoon.

Jesus was buried as Thursday began and was resurrected as Sunday began.

rstrats
November 9th, 2013, 06:44 AM
jamie,

re: "Ok, but the actual sign was how long he would be in the ground."


And the 6th calendar day of the week crucifixion adherents say that the Messiah was placed in the tomb on the 6th calendar day of the week - at least that has been my experience with the ones with which I've had contact. They say He was in the tomb for a portion of the 6th calenday day daytime, all of the night time and all of the daytime of the 7th calendar day, all of the night time of the 1st calendar day and a portion of the daytime of the first calendar day. That of course only accounts for two night times. Since Matthew 12:40 says three night times would be involved, they insist that the verse is using common Jewish idiomatic language. I am simply looking for some support for that idea other than "it must be an idiom because that is the only way to make the third night actually mean the second night".


re: "As he was buried a Sabbath began. The women came to the tomb before sunrise so if he was crucified on a Friday he would only have been in the ground one night and no days.

Actually, if He were placed in the tomb during the 7th calendar day night time and rose on the 1st calendar day during the night time, two night times and one daytime would be involved.

BTW, Mark 16:2 says that the sun had already risen.

rstrats
November 9th, 2013, 07:10 AM
genuineoriginal,

re: "I am merely pointing out that building a case for a Wednesday afternoon burial on the single verse Matthew 12:40..."

Where have I said anything about building a case for a Wednesday afternoon burial?


re: "...the only verse that doesn't fit any conceivable timeline is Matthew 12:40, and it is only impossible to make it fit when you interpret it to mean 72 hours."

It's also impossible to make it fit if "three nights" actually means at least a portion of three night times.

jamie
November 9th, 2013, 08:37 AM
The women came to the tomb before sunrise...


Yes, I should have said Mary Magdalene.


Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene went to the tomb early, while it was still dark, and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb. (John 20:1)

That suggests to me it was before 6 AM, which is when the day starts. The other women came around 6 AM, maybe even a little after, so go ahead and count it if you want to do so. That gives you Saturday and Sunday which is fairly close to three days.

Also, if you want to disregard Luke 23:54 (RSV) you can count Friday and there you have your three days. Nothing to it.

You will also need to disregard Matthew 27:62-65.


On the next day, which followed the Day of Preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees gathered together to Pilate saying, “Sir, we remember, while He was still alive, how that deceiver said, ‘After three days I will rise.’ Therefore command that the tomb be made secure until the third day lest His disciples come by night and steal Him away and say to the people ‘He has risen from the dead.’ So the last deception will be worse than the first.”

Pilate said to them, “You have a guard, go your way, make it as secure as you know how.”

So they went and made the tomb secure, sealing the stone and setting the guard.

If Jesus was buried on Friday then the tomb would have been sealed on Saturday morning for three days so the body would not be stolen.

Evidently Pilate and the Jews did not know he died on Friday or they could have sealed the tomb for just one day.

But since the tomb was supposed to be sealed and a guard posted for three days that proves Jesus was not the Christ because the three days were cut short and Jesus did not prove his three day sign.

And there you have it...

jamie
November 9th, 2013, 09:02 AM
To prove the point, I provided three verses from Luke 24 that are completely unable to fit inside a Wednesday afternoon to Saturday afternoon burial scenario.


Yes, you did indeed provide scriptures that say Sunday is the third day from Friday. Way to go.

Let's count it together. We have Saturday, Sunday ... oops. But we did get close.

False Prophet
November 9th, 2013, 09:39 AM
[1] In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
[2] The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters.
[3] And God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.
[4] And God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness.
[5] God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day. Gen.1

jamie
November 9th, 2013, 10:35 AM
Paraskeue means 'preparation' for the weekly seventh day Sabbath.


No, paraskeue is a Greek word meaning preparation period. It can mean preparation for anything, a wedding festival, a trip, a birthday party, or anything that requires preparation.


Unleavened bread shall be eaten seven days. And no leavened bread shall be seen among you, nor shall leaven be seen among you in all your quarters. (Exodus 13:7)

I don't know how many years you have observed Unleavened Bread but I can assure it takes preparation to remove all leavened products from the home and prepare unleavened bread products to be eaten for the feast.

I don't eat in my car but I still like to have it detailed or at least vacuumed before the feast.

Yes, Unleavened Bread observance requires preparation and you may be surprised to learn that Nisan 15 does not always fall on a Saturday.

Preparation for an annual Sabbath is no less important than preparation for the weekly Sabbath. A Sabbath is a Sabbath is a Sabbath.

I'm surprised you believe you can observe Unleavened Bread without any preparation.

rainee
November 9th, 2013, 10:52 AM
I can do this but only as a riddle:
When are two days only one?

Answer: when they are at night. ie, the 17th ended and the 18th began in the night.

According to this reckoning couldn't The Lord could have been in the grave starting from Friday afternoon, going through Saturday, day and night, and Sunday until just before dawn?

I think you can do the same thing in the Jewish allotment of times but this is Gentile above -- and have you considered why you might want to do Gentile time?

Because Jonah, David and the servant, and the Crucifixion and Burial of the Lord all three involved Gentiles and their concept of time...

If you do the figuring differently what is the problem or rather how do you do it?

JonahofAkron
November 9th, 2013, 10:56 AM
No, paraskeue is a Greek word meaning preparation period. It can mean preparation for anything, a wedding festival, a trip, a birthday party, or anything that requires preparation.


Unleavened bread shall be eaten seven days. And no leavened bread shall be seen among you, nor shall leaven be seen among you in all your quarters. (Exodus 13:7)

I don't know how many years you have observed Unleavened Bread but I can assure it takes preparation to remove all leavened products from the home and prepare unleavened bread products to be eaten for the feast.

I don't eat in my car but I still like to have it detailed or at least vacuumed before the feast.

Yes, Unleavened Bread observance requires preparation and you may be surprised to learn that Nisan 15 does not always fall on a Saturday.

Preparation for an annual Sabbath is no less important than preparation for the weekly Sabbath. A Sabbath is a Sabbath is a Sabbath.

I'm surprised you believe you can observe Unleavened Bread without any preparation.

Interesting. I thought you were arguing the disappearance of the necessity of Torah, but you celebrate Pesach to the point of removal of leaven? You are an enigma.

jamie
November 9th, 2013, 12:22 PM
Interesting. I thought you were arguing the disappearance of the necessity of Torah, but you celebrate Pesach to the point of removal of leaven? You are an enigma.


The Torah had to be set aside because God decided to once again severely chastise his people. Jesus offered them the kingdom based on their repentance, but they declined and God reprimanded them again.

The Torah is for Israel only, it is not for the church of God. But what does that have to do with Passover and Unleavened Bread?

To this day the Torah requires a lamb or goat sacrifice for Passover. Since the priesthood is not extant and there is no sanctuary even the Jews in Israel have to fudge on the law.

I keep Passover and Unleavened Bread based on NT instructions, not the Torah.

jamie
November 9th, 2013, 04:47 PM
According to this reckoning couldn't The Lord could have been in the grave starting from Friday afternoon, going through Saturday, day and night, and Sunday until just before dawn?


Do you not believe Jesus was the firstfruits of the kingdom of God?

Squeaky
November 9th, 2013, 05:09 PM
Squeaky,

I don't see where your post shows a phrase stating a certain number of days, and or a certain number of nights where it absolutely couldn't have included at least parts of the specified number of days and at least parts of the specified number of nights?

I said
Well some worked part of a day and some worked all day. But the land owner paid them all the same. The land owner seen a part of a day as a full day.

steko
November 9th, 2013, 06:54 PM
No, paraskeue is a Greek word meaning preparation period. It can mean preparation for anything, a wedding festival, a trip, a birthday party, or anything that requires preparation.


Unleavened bread shall be eaten seven days. And no leavened bread shall be seen among you, nor shall leaven be seen among you in all your quarters. (Exodus 13:7)

I don't know how many years you have observed Unleavened Bread but I can assure it takes preparation to remove all leavened products from the home and prepare unleavened bread products to be eaten for the feast.

I don't eat in my car but I still like to have it detailed or at least vacuumed before the feast.

Yes, Unleavened Bread observance requires preparation and you may be surprised to learn that Nisan 15 does not always fall on a Saturday.

Preparation for an annual Sabbath is no less important than preparation for the weekly Sabbath. A Sabbath is a Sabbath is a Sabbath.

I'm surprised you believe you can observe Unleavened Bread without any preparation.

The word that is used in the four gospels as 'preparation' for the passover and unleavened bread is 'hetoimazo'.
'Paraskeue' always applies to 'preparation' for the weekly seventh day Sabbath and is the word used throughout the last two-thousand years in Greece for the sixth day of the week.

intojoy
November 9th, 2013, 07:02 PM
The evidence of the Gospels is that Yeshua was killed on a Friday and placed in the tomb before sundown on Friday. There is no need to take the term Sabbath any other way than the usual Sabbath, which is from sundown Friday until sundown Saturday. This is the emphasis of Scripture.

For example, John 19:31 states: The Jews therefore, because it was the Preparation, that the bodies should not remain on the cross upon the sabbath (for the day of that sabbath was a high day), asked of Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. The day of preparation was always Friday. On this day, the Jewish people prepared the Sabbath meal in advance because they were not allowed to prepare any food on the Sabbath day. A Sabbath is called a High Sabbath when it falls on a Jewish holiday. In this case, it was the second day of the Passover, and the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

Mark 15:42 reads: And when even was now come, because it was the Preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath ... In Jewish terminology, the “day of preparation” or the day before the sabbath is always Friday.
Luke 23:54 adds: And it was the day of the Preparation, and the sabbath drew on. The day of the Preparation was Friday; the sabbath drew on meant that the sun was beginning to set on Friday. The Sabbath officially begins once three stars have appeared in the sky.

Matthew 27:62 reads: Now on the morrow, which is the day after the Preparation, the chief priests and the Pharisees were gathered together unto Pilate ...

The day after the Preparation is Saturday morning, following Friday night; it is Sabbath morning following Sabbath night. Just from these statements alone, it is clear that Yeshua died around three o'clock in the afternoon on Friday. He was placed in the tomb before three stars appeared in the sky, which is the official Jewish reckoning that the Sabbath begins.

Besides the Gospels, ancient Jewish records also give Friday as the day the Messiah died. The Talmud points out that He died on a Friday during the Passover: “There is a tradition on the eve of the sabbath and Passover they hung Jesu. The heralds went forth crying, ‘Jesu goes to be executed because he practiced sorcery and seduced Israel and estranged them from their God. Let anyone who can bring forward a justifying plea for him, come and give information concerning him.' But no justifying plea was found for him. So they hung Jesu on the eve of the sabbath and the Passover.”

This is a Talmudic quote referring to the trial of Yeshua and His execution. Certain things should be noted. First, twice in this quote it is emphasized that He was executed on the eve of the Sabbath, which is Friday. Secondly, twice it is mentioned that it was at the Passover, which is why John 19:31 stated that the Sabbath was a High Sabbath because it fell during a Jewish festival week. Thirdly, this quote reveals that the exact charge against Jesus was: “he practiced sorcery and seduced Israel and estranged them from their God.” This is a reflection of Matthew 12, where Yeshua was officially rejected on the grounds of being demon possessed; they claimed that He performed His miracles by the power of Beelzebub.

It is interesting that the rabbis of this period never denied that Jesus performed real miracles. In this particular quote, they admit that He performed miracles. But in Matthew 12:24, they explained away His miracles by claiming He performed them by the power of Beelzebub, the prince of demons. In this quote, they say, “he practiced sorcery,” reflecting the Matthew 12 account. But the main import of this quote is that Yeshua indeed died on a Friday before the Sabbath, and during the week of the Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread. To try to move His death to either a Thursday, Wednesday, or Tuesday because of a Gentile misconception of the Jewish reckoning of time violates not only the clear statements of the Gospels, it also violates the actual historical evidence recorded much closer to the time when these things happened.

“How long was He in the tomb?” Because of the mention of the three days and three nights, some have tried to move the Crucifixion to an earlier day in the week. Some have felt that the above statement requires three full 24-hour periods, so they try to place Him in the tomb for three 24-hour periods.

If this position is thought through, it actually creates more problems than it solves. For example, if Yeshua were in the tomb three full 24-hour periods, and resurrected only one second after the third 24-hour period, what day would it have been? It would not be the third day, but the fourth day. Another example is when He met the two disciples on the Emmaus road. By then, many hours had transpired since the Resurrection. The two relate to Yeshua the events of the trial and crucifixion and point out that it was three days since these things happened! If He had been in the tomb three full 24-hour periods, then certainly it would have been the fourth day since His death.

Actually, if all the statements of Jesus are considered, they seem to be contradictory. For example, sometimes He said: on the third day the Resurrection would occur (Mat. 16:21; 17:23; 20:19; 27:64; Lk. 9:22; 18:33; 24:7, 21, 46; Acts 10:40; I Cor. 15:4). Sometimes He said: after three days, meaning the fourth day (Mat. 26:61; 27:40, 63; Mk. 8:31; 9:31; 10:34; 14:58; 15:29; Jn. 2:19-20). A third statement He made was the expression: three days and three nights (Mat. 12:39-40).

While these three statements appear to be contradictory in Gentile reckoning of time, they are not so in Jewish reckoning of time. In Jewish reckoning of time, part of a day counts for the whole day, just as part of a year counts for a whole year. Yeshua was in the tomb part of Friday. In Jewish reckoning of time, that counted for all of Friday. He was also in the tomb Saturday and part of Sunday, which counts for all of Sunday. All three seemingly contradictory statements can be reconciled from a Jewish reckoning of time.

First, the Resurrection was to be on the third day. The first day in the tomb was Friday; the second day in the tomb was Saturday; the third day in the tomb was Sunday. On that same day, He was resurrected; so, He was resurrected on the third day.

Secondly, the Resurrection was to be after three days because part of the day counted for the whole day. Since He was in the tomb part of Friday, that counted for all of Friday. He was also in the tomb all of Saturday. Since He was in the tomb part of Sunday, that counted for all of Sunday. Therefore, from a Jewish point of view, counting the two partial days as whole days, Jesus was not only resurrected on the third day, He was also resurrected after three days.

Thirdly, the expression three days and three nights can also be reconciled, for this is simply a Jewish figure of speech meaning “any period of time that touches three days.” Since the period of time Yeshua spent in the tomb touched Friday, it counted for all of Friday, including day and night. He was in the tomb both day and night on Saturday. Since He was also in the tomb part of Sunday, it counted for all of Sunday, both day and night. In fact, the statement, three days and three nights, is used in the Old Testament several times (Gen. 42:17-18; I Sam. 30:12-13; I Kg. 20:29, for seven days; II Chr. 10:5, 12; Esth. 4:16 in comparison with 5:1). If the context is looked at carefully, it will show that this expression cannot possibly mean three full 24-hour periods. Contextually , although three days and three nights are mentioned, it does not mean three full 24-hour periods. Sometimes the action was committed on the third day before it went very far into that day, yet it was reckoned as three days and three nights.

Again, there is absolutely no need to try to move the Crucifixion earlier into the week. It must be remembered that the Gospels were written by Jews with a Jewish frame of reference and Jewish reckoning of time. In keeping with the Jewish frame of reference, Jewish terminologies and Jewish reckoning of time, Yeshua was buried on Friday before sundown and before the Sabbath began. He was resurrected some time after the Sabbath, on Saturday night after sundown. From a Jewish perspective, the Sabbath had already ended and Sunday, the first day of the week, had already begun.


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steko
November 9th, 2013, 07:23 PM
Excellent post, Intojoy! :thumb:

This is exactly the way I see it and is the way I teach it....exactly the same points.
If one simply reads the gospel accounts and marks the time line of events there is not room for an extra day there.
Only those who insist on a literal 72 hour period and disregard the narrative timeline come to different conclusions and they usually can't be persuaded otherwise.
Jesus said, plainly that He desired to eat this passover with His disciples and that's what they did, at the end of Thursday the 14th and the beginning after sundown of Friday/Paraskeue the 15th. That same night , the 15th He was betrayed and then crucified the next morning, still the 15th by Pilate. He died that afternoon, the 15th and was taken down during the Preparation/Paraskeue for the seventh day weekly Sabbath. He was in the grave on the last part of the 15th, the whole of the 16th and arose on the 17th, the first day of the week.

rstrats
November 9th, 2013, 07:30 PM
intojoy,

re: "...the expression three days and three nights can also be reconciled, for this is simply a Jewish figure of speech meaning 'any period of time that touches three days'.”

And that is why I started this topic; to see if there is any writing from the first century or before that uses a phrase stating a specific number of days and/or a specific number of nights for a period of time where the period of time absolutely couldn't have included at least parts of each one of the specified number of days and at least parts of each one of the specified number of nights.

steko
November 9th, 2013, 07:41 PM
In Greek, four of the words for the weekdays derived from ordinals. However, the Greek word for Friday is Paraskevi and is derived from a word meaning "to prepare" (paraskeue). Like Saturday (Savato, and Sunday, (Kiriaki), Friday is named for its liturgical significance as the day of preparation before the Sabbath, which was inherited by Greek Christian Orthodox culture from Jewish practices.


Greek days of the week:

Sunday = (KiriakEE)
Monday = (DeFTEra)
Tuesday =(TREEtee)
Wednesday =(TeTArtee)
Thursday =(PEmptee)
Friday =(ParaskeVEE)
Saturday =(SAvatoh)

steko
November 9th, 2013, 07:59 PM
intojoy,

re: "...the expression three days and three nights can also be reconciled, for this is simply a Jewish figure of speech meaning 'any period of time that touches three days'.”

And that is why I started this topic; to see if there is any writing from the first century or before that uses a phrase stating a specific number of days and/or a specific number of nights for a period of time where the period of time absolutely couldn't have included at least parts of each one of the specified number of days and at least parts of each one of the specified number of nights.



"While to the 21st-century reader these statements may initially appear to contradict one another, in reality, they harmonize perfectly if one understands the different, and sometimes more liberal, methods ancients often used when reckoning time. In the first century, any part of a day could be computed for the whole day and the night following it (cf. Lightfoot, 1979, pp. 210-211). The Jerusalem Talmud quotes rabbi Eleazar ben Azariah, who lived around A.D. 100, as saying: “A day and night are an Onah [‘a portion of time’] and the portion of an Onah is as the whole of it” (from Jerusalem Talmud: Shabbath ix. 3, as quoted in Hoehner, 1974, pp. 248-249, bracketed comment in orig.). Azariah indicated that a portion of a 24-hour period could be considered the same “as the whole of it.” Thus, as awkward as it may sound to an American living in the 21st century, a person in ancient times could legitimately speak of something occurring “on the third day,” “after three days,” or after “three days and three nights,” yet still be referring to the same exact day."-

Quote from:

http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=6&article=756

jamie
November 9th, 2013, 09:50 PM
The Friday crucifixion is an interesting theory but it engenders a question.


That day was the Preparation and the Sabbath drew near. And the women who had come with Him from Galilee followed after and they observed the tomb and how His body was laid.

Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment.
(Luke 23:54-56)

The Sabbath according to the commandment is the weekly Sabbath. The women prepared their spices and fragrant oils and then rested on the weekly Sabbath which means their spice and oil preparation was done before the weekly Sabbath.

The women saw how the body was laid and a Sabbath began. This means there were two Sabbaths while Jesus was in the tomb.

The women prepared their spices on Friday after the Thursday annual Sabbath and then rested on the weekly Sabbath.

genuineoriginal
November 10th, 2013, 12:50 AM
Jesus was not buried on Wednesday afternoon. Jesus was not resurrected on Saturday afternoon.

Jesus was buried as Thursday began and was resurrected as Sunday began.
If you are referring to Wednesday as the sun sets and Saturday as the sun sets, then we are talking about the same thing, and you have to ignore most of the scripture that says when the crucifixion and resurrection happened in order to make a single verse fit.

genuineoriginal
November 10th, 2013, 12:58 AM
Yes, you did indeed provide scriptures that say Sunday is the third day from Friday. Way to go.

Let's count it together. We have Saturday, Sunday ... oops. But we did get close.
Let's count again, but let's do it the way it was done by Jesus:

Luke 13:32
And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.

Luke 24:21
But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.
To day, to morrow, and the third day.

Jesus spoke to the two on the road to Emmaus on the third day.

genuineoriginal
November 10th, 2013, 01:02 AM
I'm surprised you believe you can observe Unleavened Bread without any preparation.
I am surprised that the Pharisees have convinced so many people that a lot of preparation is needed in order to commemorate a time when the children of Israel were in such a hurry to flee Egypt that they didn't have time to prepare leavened bread.

Deuteronomy 16:3
Thou shalt eat no leavened bread with it; seven days shalt thou eat unleavened bread therewith, even the bread of affliction; for thou camest forth out of the land of Egypt in haste: that thou mayest remember the day when thou camest forth out of the land of Egypt all the days of thy life.

genuineoriginal
November 10th, 2013, 01:12 AM
The women prepared their spices on Friday after the Thursday annual Sabbath and then rested on the weekly Sabbath.
The women would not have opened the grave to apply the spices after the body was in the grave for four days, since that would have been too late.

John 11:39
Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days.

steko
November 10th, 2013, 01:34 AM
Let's count again, but let's do it the way it was done by Jesus:

Luke 13:32
And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.

Luke 24:21
But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.
To day, to morrow, and the third day.

Jesus spoke to the two on the road to Emmaus on the third day.

Exactly!

If Jesus was in the grave for three twentyfour hour periods then He would have risen on the fourth day.

genuineoriginal
November 10th, 2013, 01:44 AM
Exactly!

If Jesus was in the grave for three twentyfour hour periods then He would have risen on the fourth day.

If the crucifixion was on Wednesday, then the two talking on Sunday would have said it was the fifth day since the crucifixion.

steko
November 10th, 2013, 02:04 AM
If the crucifixion was on Wednesday, then the two talking on Sunday would have said it was the fifth day since the crucifixion.

Correct! :thumb:

Yes, the two said, "This is the third day since these things happened."
What things?
Condemned to death and crucified.

Luk 24:20 And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.

According to the context of Luk 24, they said this on Sunday afternoon. The third day counting backward from Sunday would be Friday like we say, "Three days ago such and such took place."

jamie
November 10th, 2013, 03:20 AM
According to the context of Luk 24, they said this on Sunday afternoon. The third day counting backward from Sunday would be Friday like we say, "Three days ago such and such took place."


Ok, let's count back from Sunday. One day from Sunday would be Saturday. Two days from Sunday would be Friday. Three days from Sunday would be Thursday, which was when he was buried.

So you just proved that Jesus was not crucified on Friday.

jamie
November 10th, 2013, 03:31 AM
If Jesus was in the grave for three twentyfour hour periods then He would have risen on the fourth day.


Jesus was buried as Thursday began. One day from Thursday would be Friday. Two days from Thursday would Saturday. Three days from Thursday would be Sunday.

Jesus was raised up on Sunday the third day from when he was buried.

genuineoriginal
November 10th, 2013, 04:16 AM
Ok, let's count back from Sunday. One day from Sunday would be Saturday. Two days from Sunday would be Friday. Three days from Sunday would be Thursday, which was when he was buried.

So you just proved that Jesus was not crucified on Friday.

You miscounted the days because you started from zero.
This is a common mistake among modern people that learned from the Arabic numbering system.

The correct way to count is:
Friday, the first day
Saturday, the second day
Sunday, the third day

Ben Masada
November 10th, 2013, 04:57 AM
You miscounted the days because you started from zero.
This is a common mistake among modern people that learned from the Arabic numbering system.

The correct way to count is:
Friday, the first day
Saturday, the second day
Sunday, the third day

You missed the 3 nights. Don't forget that Mat.12:40 speaks of 3 nights too.

Ben Masada
November 10th, 2013, 05:11 AM
The evidence of the Gospels is that Yeshua was killed on a Friday and placed in the tomb before sundown on Friday. There is no need to take the term Sabbath any other way than the usual Sabbath, which is from sundown Friday until sundown Saturday. This is the emphasis of Scripture.

Does it mean you admit that the prophecy in Mat. 12:40 was a blunder of the guy who wrote it? I agree with you totally about your whole big post but to me your taking of this position, Mat. 12:40 has become a contradiction. How do you harmonize that as a Christian?

jamie
November 10th, 2013, 09:05 AM
You miscounted the days because you started from zero.
This is a common mistake among modern people that learned from the Arabic numbering system.

The correct way to count is:
Friday, the first day
Saturday, the second day
Sunday, the third day


Let's say for the sake of discussion that there are twenty-four hours in a day. Scripture does not directly specify which day of the week that Jesus was buried, but it does specify which day he arose.

Let's also say for the sake of discussion that Jesus arose on Sunday. So twenty-four hours before Sunday would be Saturday and we will count that as one day.

Twenty-four hours before Saturday would be Friday and we will count that as the second day.

Twenty-four hours before Friday would be Thursday and we will count that as the third day.

Jesus was buried as Thursday began and that is what scripture says.

But I am curious as to why you are working so hard to prove that Jesus lied about the sign of Jonah. What proof do you have that Jonah was not in the sea creature for three days and three nights?

Jesus said he was so why do you think Jesus lied? Why not give Jesus the benefit of the doubt?

rstrats
November 10th, 2013, 09:55 AM
steko,

re: "The Jerusalem Talmud quotes rabbi Eleazar ben Azariah, who lived around A.D. 100, as saying: 'A day and night are an Onah [‘a portion of time’] and the portion of an Onah is as the whole of it'”


I addressed the Azariah quote in post #9.

rstrats
November 10th, 2013, 10:03 AM
Squeaky,

re: "I said Well some worked part of a day and some worked all day. But the land owner paid them all the same. The land owner seen a part of a day as a full day."


I'm afraid I don't see what that has to do with Matthew 12:40 or my request in the OP. I wonder if you might explain why you think that it does?

rstrats
November 10th, 2013, 10:15 AM
jamie,

re: "The women prepared their spices on Friday after the Thursday annual Sabbath and then rested on the weekly Sabbath."


Maybe you did and I missed it, but shouldn't you have referrenced Mark 16:1 to support that position?

rstrats
November 10th, 2013, 10:24 AM
genuineoriginal,

re: "To day, to morrow, and the third day."

In order for that to be analagous to Matthew 12:40 the verse would have to read: "Today's night time and daytime, tomorrow's night time and day time, and the third day's night time and daytime."

rstrats
November 10th, 2013, 10:57 AM
steko,

re: "The third day counting backward from Sunday would be Friday like we say, 'Three days ago such and such took place.'"


If on the first day of the week, they said "One day ago such and such took place", to what day of the week would they be referring?

jamie
November 10th, 2013, 11:02 AM
Maybe you did and I missed it, but shouldn't you have referrenced Mark 16:1 to support that position?



Now when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, that they might come and anoint Him. (Mark 16:1)

Excellent point.

jamie
November 10th, 2013, 11:08 AM
After a Sabbath the women bought spices.


Now when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, that they might come and anoint Him. (Mark 16:1)

After they bought their spices they then prepared their spices and rested on the weekly Sabbath.


Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment.
(Luke 23:56)

This means there were two Sabbaths that passed while Jesus was buried.

genuineoriginal
November 10th, 2013, 11:11 AM
Let's say for the sake of discussion that there are twenty-four hours in a day. Scripture does not directly specify which day of the week that Jesus was buried, but it does specify which day he arose.

Let's also say for the sake of discussion that Jesus arose on Sunday. So twenty-four hours before Sunday would be Saturday and we will count that as one day.

Twenty-four hours before Saturday would be Friday and we will count that as the second day.

Twenty-four hours before Friday would be Thursday and we will count that as the third day.

Jesus was buried as Thursday began and that is what scripture says.
Sorry, but the culture at the writing of the Bible did not start counting by zero, since zero did not exist.
They started counting by one.

The culture did not count a day as 24 hours, they counted it as periods of daylight.

So, Sunday is one day, the daylight period before Sunday is the second day, the daylight period before that is the third day, and it always comes back to Friday when you count the same way that it was done in first century Judea.


But I am curious as to why you are working so hard to prove that Jesus lied about the sign of Jonah. What proof do you have that Jonah was not in the sea creature for three days and three nights?

Jesus said he was so why do you think Jesus lied? Why not give Jesus the benefit of the doubt?
Let's let someone familiar with the culture explain it, like Ignatius, who was alive during the time the Gospels were being written.

Ignatius - Epistle to the Trallians: IX

On the day of the preparation, then, at the third hour, He received the sentence from Pilate, the Father permitting that to happen; at the sixth hour He was crucified; at the ninth hour He gave up the ghost; and before sunset He was buried. During the Sabbath He continued under the earth in the tomb in which Joseph of Arimathća had laid Him. At the dawning of the Lord’s day He arose from the dead, according to what was spoken by Himself, “As Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly, so shall the Son of man also be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.” The day of the preparation, then, comprises the passion; the Sabbath embraces the burial; the Lord’s Day contains the resurrection.

genuineoriginal
November 10th, 2013, 11:15 AM
genuineoriginal,

re: "To day, to morrow, and the third day."

In order for that to be analagous to Matthew 12:40 the verse would have to read: "Today's night time and daytime, tomorrow's night time and day time, and the third day's night time and daytime."
No, Matthew 12:40 is only a problem for those that choose to ignore the cultural understanding of time when the Gospels were written and attempt to impose our modern cultural understanding of time instead.

jamie
November 10th, 2013, 11:31 AM
Let's let someone familiar with the culture explain it, like Ignatius, who was alive during the time the Gospels were being written.



Ignatius - Epistle to the Trallians: IX

"On the day of the preparation, then, at the third hour, He received the sentence from Pilate, the Father permitting that to happen; at the sixth hour He was crucified..."


Ok, so we know Ignatius did not make his assertion based on scripture.


Now it was the third hour and they crucified Him. (Mark 15:25)

The third hour (9 AM) was the time of the morning sacrifice.

Jesus died at the ninth hour (3 PM) the time of the afternoon sacrifice.


Now when the sixth hour had come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour. And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?” which is translated, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”

Some of those who stood by, when they heard that, said, “Look, He is calling for Elijah!” Then someone ran and filled a sponge full of sour wine, put it on a reed and offered it to Him to drink saying, “Let Him alone, let us see if Elijah will come to take Him down.”

And Jesus cried out with a loud voice, and breathed His last. (Mark 15:33-37)

genuineoriginal
November 10th, 2013, 11:35 AM
Ignatius - Epistle to the Trallians: IX

"On the day of the preparation, then, at the third hour, He received the sentence from Pilate, the Father permitting that to happen; at the sixth hour He was crucified..."


Ok, so we know Ignatius did not make his assertion based on scripture.


Now it was the third hour and they crucified Him. (Mark 15:25)

The third hour (9 AM) was the time of the morning sacrifice.

Jesus died at the ninth hour (3 PM) the time of the afternoon sacrifice.


Now when the sixth hour had come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour. And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?” which is translated, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”

Some of those who stood by, when they heard that, said, “Look, He is calling for Elijah!” Then someone ran and filled a sponge full of sour wine, put it on a reed and offered it to Him to drink saying, “Let Him alone, let us see if Elijah will come to take Him down.”

And Jesus cried out with a loud voice, and breathed His last. (Mark 15:33-37)
I am not sure what your point is, unless you are agreeing with me that time was counted differently in the first century.

jamie
November 10th, 2013, 11:37 AM
I am not sure what your point is, unless you are agreeing with me that time was counted differently in the first century.


At what hour did Ignatius say Jesus was crucified?

At what hour did Mark say Jesus was crucified?

rstrats
November 10th, 2013, 11:39 AM
genuineoriginal,

re: "No, Matthew 12:40 is only a problem for those that choose to ignore the cultural understanding of time when the Gospels were written..."


So to back up your assertion, how about providing an example from the time when the Gospels were written that shows a phrase stating a certain number of days and/or a certain number of nights for a period of time when the period absolutely couldn't have included at least parts of the specified number of days and at least parts of the specified number of nights?

genuineoriginal
November 10th, 2013, 11:44 AM
genuineoriginal,

re: "No, Matthew 12:40 is only a problem for those that choose to ignore the cultural understanding of time when the Gospels were written..."


So to back up your assertion, how about providing an example from the time when the Gospels were written that shows a phrase stating a certain number of days and/or a certain number of nights for a period of time when the period absolutely couldn't have included at least parts of the specified number of days and at least parts of the specified number of nights?

Didn't you read the quote from Ignatius?

Right Divider
November 10th, 2013, 11:46 AM
They will not give up there pagan holidays and traditions so matter how you slice it. they will say good friday to easter sunday... even tho at best thats 2 days.. At least they agree he didnt work on this sabbath :)
Friday, Saturday, Sunday.... I count three.

genuineoriginal
November 10th, 2013, 11:53 AM
At what hour did Ignatius say Jesus was crucified?

At what hour did Mark say Jesus was crucified?
We know what Peter taught Mark about the crucufixion, but Ignatius was a student of the Apostle John.

What did John teach Ignatius about the crucifixion?

JosephR
November 10th, 2013, 12:03 PM
Friday, Saturday, Sunday.... I count three.

Well as I said you won't think outside of your tradition , let me ask you this when you get off work on Friday and go back on Monday how many days do you have off? Do you count Friday ? You can't count Friday if you worked and you can't count it as a day in the grave when your alive, same thing with Sunday


Posted from the TOL App!

jamie
November 10th, 2013, 12:11 PM
Friday, Saturday, Sunday.... I count three.


Ok, RD, you're good about sticking to scripture. The sign Jesus gave was the sign of Jonah. As Jonah was in the fish for three days and three nights so Jesus would be in the ground for three days and three nights.

What was the sign? The sign was the amount of time he would be in the ground. How long did Jesus say he would be in the ground? Was it three days and three nights? Yes, three days and three nights.

Is a night and a day a twenty-four hour period of time? If so, would three twenty-four hour periods of time equal 72 hours?

Scripture does not say that Jesus was buried the same day that he died. This eliminates any part of Friday.

Are you with those who claim that Jesus could not have possibly meant what he said?

Right Divider
November 10th, 2013, 01:17 PM
Well as I said you won't think outside of your tradition , let me ask you this when you get off work on Friday and go back on Monday how many days do you have off? Do you count Friday ? You can't count Friday if you worked and you can't count it as a day in the grave when your alive, same thing with Sunday

Posted from the TOL App!
Firstly, I was not raised in a church "tradition" so I think that all of you that keep saying that to me should get over it.

Secondly, it does not matter one bit how you or I account time TODAY. The question is: What did He mean when HE say it there in the culture that HE lived in?

And has been shown is that even the phrase "day and night" can still mean any part of a day IN THEIR CULTURE of THAT TIME (both the speaker and His audience).

Right Divider
November 10th, 2013, 01:18 PM
Ok, RD, you're good about sticking to scripture. The sign Jesus gave was the sign of Jonah. As Jonah was in the fish for three days and three nights so Jesus would be in the ground for three days and three nights.

What was the sign? The sign was the amount of time he would be in the ground. How long did Jesus say he would be in the ground? Was it three days and three nights? Yes, three days and three nights.

Is a night and a day a twenty-four hour period of time? If so, would three twenty-four hour periods of time equal 72 hours?

Scripture does not say that Jesus was buried the same day that he died. This eliminates any part of Friday.

Are you with those who claim that Jesus could not have possibly meant what he said?
So are you trying to say that the Jews would have allowed Him to be buried on the Sabbath day?

JosephR
November 10th, 2013, 01:23 PM
So are you trying to say that the Jews would have allowed Him to be buried on the Sabbath day?


That's the point he could not die on Friday then rise Sunday if he was in the grave three days and nights


Posted from the TOL App!

jamie
November 10th, 2013, 01:45 PM
So are you trying to say that the Jews would have allowed Him to be buried on the Sabbath day?


Jesus died about 3 PM, the Sabbath began at 6 PM. Nisan 15 occurs on the full moon after the vernal equinox so an hour would be about 60 minutes giving approximately three hours to get Jesus buried. Joseph had to get permission to remove Jesus from the cross. By the time they got him buried the Nisan 15 Sabbath began.

The KJV says the Sabbath "drew on" but the RSV gives a more accurate translation of the Greek epiphosko by saying the Sabbath was beginning.


It was the day of Preparation and the sabbath was beginning. (Luke 23:54 RSV)

jamie
November 10th, 2013, 02:02 PM
So are you trying to say that the Jews would have allowed Him to be buried on the Sabbath day?



If a man has committed a sin deserving of death and he is put to death, and you hang him on a tree, his body shall not remain overnight on the tree, but you shall surely bury him that day so that you do not defile the land which the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance; for he who is hanged is accursed of God. (Deuteronomy 21:22-23)

jamie
November 11th, 2013, 08:15 AM
I guess that's done.

rstrats
December 4th, 2013, 08:13 AM
genuineoriginal,

re: "Didn't you read the quote from Ignatius?"


Indeed I did. What is your point?

rstrats
December 6th, 2013, 06:27 AM
steko,

You have a question directed to you in post #61.

steko
December 6th, 2013, 08:28 AM
steko,

re: "The third day counting backward from Sunday would be Friday like we say, 'Three days ago such and such took place.'"


If on the first day of the week, they said "One day ago such and such took place", to what day of the week would they be referring?

I don't know that they would use such language but according to my use it would be the same as saying 'yesterday, such and such took place'.

--------------------------------------------
If one bases his understanding of the crucifixion week timeline on a presupposition that Matt 12:40 has to be a three X 24hr period and it can't be otherwise, then one must force the chronological narrative to fit. It's settled beforehand. It can't be otherwise.

But, if one reads the chronological narratives, one discovers that Christ instructed His disciples to prepare(hetoimazo) the passover 'on the day that the passover lambs were killed'. This, by GOD's commandment is the afternoon of the 14th Nisan. Then, Jesus sat down with the twelve and ate the passover. This is after sundown, the beginning of the 15th Nisan. That same night, he was betrayed and taken into custody. The next morning, still the 15th, He was taken to Pilate, then crucified, died and was buried before the beginning of the 16th Nisan at sundown. Before this sundown was the preparation (paraskeue) for the weekly sabbath, the 16th of Nisan. Then, He rose from the dead early on the 17th, which was the first day of the week.
There is not another day, and much less another two days(as some would have it) that can be pointed out in the chronological narratives.

If the chronological narrative of the gospels is true, then Matt 12:40 is a Hebraism, a Jewish idiom, which does not mean a literal 72 hours, but are parts of a three day period.

genuineoriginal
December 6th, 2013, 08:47 AM
genuineoriginal,

re: "No, Matthew 12:40 is only a problem for those that choose to ignore the cultural understanding of time when the Gospels were written..."


So to back up your assertion, how about providing an example from the time when the Gospels were written that shows a phrase stating a certain number of days and/or a certain number of nights for a period of time when the period absolutely couldn't have included at least parts of the specified number of days and at least parts of the specified number of nights?


Didn't you read the quote from Ignatius?


genuineoriginal,

re: "Didn't you read the quote from Ignatius?"


Indeed I did. What is your point?




Ignatius - Epistle to the Trallians: IX

On the day of the preparation, then, at the third hour, He received the sentence from Pilate, the Father permitting that to happen; at the sixth hour He was crucified; at the ninth hour He gave up the ghost; and before sunset He was buried. During the Sabbath He continued under the earth in the tomb in which Joseph of Arimathća had laid Him. At the dawning of the Lord’s day He arose from the dead, according to what was spoken by Himself, “As Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly, so shall the Son of man also be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.” The day of the preparation, then, comprises the passion; the Sabbath embraces the burial; the Lord’s Day contains the resurrection.

The days we call Friday, Saturday, and Sunday are the three days and three nights, according to Ignatius.

False Prophet
December 6th, 2013, 08:50 AM
Jesus died before Good Friday.

rstrats
December 6th, 2013, 12:29 PM
steko,

re: "...according to my use it would be the same as saying 'yesterday, such and such took place'."


And "yesterday" would be Saturday. So if Saturday was one day ago, then Friday would be two days ago, and Thursday would be three days ago and not Friday as you say in post #50.

rstrats
December 6th, 2013, 12:43 PM
genuineoriginal,

re: "The days we call Friday, Saturday, and Sunday are the three days and three nights, according to Ignatius."

I don't see where Ignatius provides an example from the time when the Gospels were written or before which shows a phrase stating a certain number of days and/or a certain number of nights to be contained in a period of time when the period of time absolutely couldn't have included at least parts of the specified number of days and at least parts of the specified number of nights.

Right Divider
December 6th, 2013, 12:46 PM
steko,

re: "...according to my use it would be the same as saying 'yesterday, such and such took place'."


And "yesterday" would be Saturday. So if Saturday was one day ago, then Friday would be two days ago, and Thursday would be three days ago and not Friday as you say in post #50.
You're still not understanding the Hebrew idiom whereby any part of a day is a day. You're stuck on the 24 hour thing.

jamie
December 6th, 2013, 12:51 PM
You're still not understanding the Hebrew idiom whereby any part of a day is a day. You're stuck on the 24 hour thing.


The Greek epiphosko proves you wrong.

Right Divider
December 6th, 2013, 12:53 PM
The Greek epiphosko proves you wrong.
Can you please show me a verse where that is used? You never give any references so that we can follow along.

rstrats
December 6th, 2013, 01:00 PM
Right Divider,

re: "You're still not understanding the Hebrew idiom whereby any part of a day is a day."

And I point out in post #9 that I agree, but that is not the issue for the purpose of the OP.


re: "You're stuck on the 24 hour thing."

Actually, you're the one that's stuck on the 24 hour thing. I've said nothing about 24 hours.

jamie
December 6th, 2013, 01:00 PM
Can you please show me a verse where that is used? You never give any references so that we can follow along.


Luke 23:54.

jamie
December 6th, 2013, 01:03 PM
We can go through the crucifixion, entombment, and resurrection of Jesus if you want. I'm game.

jamie
December 6th, 2013, 01:13 PM
Jesus died before Good Friday.


When did he die?

genuineoriginal
December 6th, 2013, 02:39 PM
genuineoriginal,

re: "The days we call Friday, Saturday, and Sunday are the three days and three nights, according to Ignatius."

I don't see where Ignatius provides an example from the time when the Gospels were written or before which shows a phrase stating a certain number of days and/or a certain number of nights to be contained in a period of time when the period of time absolutely couldn't have included at least parts of the specified number of days and at least parts of the specified number of nights.

So, you don't see how a writer from the first century who states that Jesus died late on Friday, was in the grave all of Saturday, and rose early on Sunday uses the phrase "three days and three nights" when there are only two nights between Friday afternoon and Sunday morning?

Irregardless of whether it was an idiom or not, all the records from the first century about the crucifixion describe it as Jesus dying a Friday afternoon and Jesus rising on a Sunday morning.

The modern theory that Jesus really died on a Wednesday afternoon and rose on a Saturday afternoon is not supported by any historical documents.

jamie
December 6th, 2013, 03:40 PM
Irregardless of whether it was an idiom or not, all the records from the first century about the crucifixion describe it as Jesus dying a Friday afternoon and Jesus rising on a Sunday morning.


Do you know what the sign was that identified Jesus as being the Christ?

genuineoriginal
December 6th, 2013, 03:53 PM
Do you know what the sign was that identified Jesus as being the Christ?

There are more signs than one.

jamie
December 6th, 2013, 05:20 PM
There are more signs than one.



But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.

"For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." (Matthew 12:39-40)

When Jesus said no sign except..., how many more signs do you think he gave?

intojoy
December 6th, 2013, 05:53 PM
Lazarus first sign to "Israel"

Jesus second sign to "Israel"

Two Witnesses of Tribulation third sign to "Israel"

WoundedEgo
December 6th, 2013, 06:40 PM
But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.

"For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." (Matthew 12:39-40)

When Jesus said no sign except..., how many more signs do you think he gave?

The fact that the writers of the scriptures couldn't get their story straight on the resurrection is not a good sign.

Did Jesus die on the Passover or feast on the Passover?

jamie
December 6th, 2013, 06:54 PM
Did Jesus die on the Passover or feast on the Passover?


Jesus died at about 3 PM Hebrew time on Nisan 14, a Wednesday.

WoundedEgo
December 6th, 2013, 06:57 PM
Jesus died at about 3 PM Hebrew time on Nisan 14, a Wednesday.

So when did he celebrate the Passover seder?

jamie
December 6th, 2013, 07:04 PM
So when did he celebrate the Passover seder?


Jesus observed his Passover the evening he was betrayed which was the evening that began the 14th. The next morning he was condemned, beaten, and crucified. He was laid in a tomb just as the 15th began at sundown. He was resurrected 72 hours later as Sunday began.

WoundedEgo
December 6th, 2013, 07:33 PM
Jesus observed his Passover the evening he was betrayed which was the evening that began the 14th. The next morning he was condemned, beaten, and crucified. He was laid in a tomb just as the 15th began at sundown. He was resurrected 72 hours later as Sunday began.

The evening of Nisan 14 (sounds like 2014 model of the popular Japanese car) all the lambs would have been killed.

But before they could prepare dinner they were already into Nisan 14:

Mar 14:12 And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?

jamie
December 6th, 2013, 08:01 PM
But before they could prepare dinner they were already into Nisan 14:

Mar 14:12 And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?


The Mosaic Passover was the next afternoon, the afternoon of the 14th.

WoundedEgo
December 6th, 2013, 08:03 PM
The Mosaic Passover was the next afternoon, the afternoon of the 14th.

So your opinion is that Jews have their history incorrect. The actual seder was not in the evening but rather in the afternoon.

Should we alert the media?

jamie
December 6th, 2013, 09:09 PM
:wave:

Lon
December 6th, 2013, 09:25 PM
Whenever the three days and three nights of Matthew 12:40 is brought up in a “discussion” with 6th day crucifixion folks, they frequently argue that it is a Jewish idiom for counting any part of a day as a whole day. I wonder if anyone has documentation that shows that a phrase stating a certain number of days, as well as a certain number of nights was ever used in the first century or before when it absolutely didn’t include at least parts of the specified number of days and at least parts of the specified number of nights?

The 70 weeks prophecy in Daniel. I'm not sure how they are thinking that this wasn't a literal counting of 3 days, however. I've not met anyone that didn't think it was 3 days.

John 2:19 and Mark 14:58 add to the notion it was a literal 3 days. Do you have a link of what these people believe?


Right Divider,

re: "You're still not understanding the Hebrew idiom whereby any part of a day is a day."

And I point out in post #9 that I agree, but that is not the issue for the purpose of the OP.


re: "You're stuck on the 24 hour thing."

Actually, you're the one that's stuck on the 24 hour thing. I've said nothing about 24 hours.

I had to reread the OP a couple of times to get the gist. For me, the problem is I'm not familiar with the greater context of the debate. Like you, I take 3 days to be 3 days but I haven't been shown a good reason not to do so. By accounts and statements in scripture, it seems fairly straightforward to me.

The 'evening and then morning' would indicate days were actually, by our reckoning, two days so observing those days would begin and end differently (A new day begins on the Jewish calendar in the evening, if I remember correctly). What is the controversy, though? That we'd celebrate the actual days wrongly?

Lon
December 6th, 2013, 10:07 PM
Here is an article (http://carm.org/how-long-was-jesus-dead-tomb)that portrays two ways of understanding this.

steko
December 6th, 2013, 10:25 PM
Exo 12:5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:
Exo 12:6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.
Exo 12:7 And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it.
Exo 12:8 And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it.


Lev 23:5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD'S passover.

Num 9:2 Let the children of Israel also keep the passover at his appointed season.
Num 9:3 In the fourteenth day of this month, at even, ye shall keep it in his appointed season: according to all the rites of it, and according to all the ceremonies thereof, shall ye keep it.
Num 9:4 And Moses spake unto the children of Israel, that they should keep the passover.
Num 9:5 And they kept the passover on the fourteenth day of the first month at even in the wilderness of Sinai: according to all that the LORD commanded Moses, so did the children of Israel.

GOD's appointed time for Israel to kill the passover lamb is the evening of the 14th of Abib/Nisan.

evening-
‛ereḇ: A masculine noun referring to evening, dusk; night. It is used consistently to indicate the close of the day, evening, sunset. The phrase lip̱nôt-‛āreḇ, literally, the turning of the evening, means towards evening (Gen_24:63; Deu_23:11 [12]). The term bęn hā‛arbayim means between the evening, that is at dusk or at twilight (Exo_12:6; Exo_16:12; Exo_30:8). Le‛eṯ ‛ereḇ means at the time of sunset, evening (Gen_8:11). The phrase ṣillę ‛ereḇ means shadows of evening (Jer_6:4).

So....Israel was to kill the passover lamb at the close of the day of the 14th Nisan and they were to eat it at the beginning of the 15th, which would begin at sunset of the 14th.

Mar 14:12 And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?
Mar 14:16 And his disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.


Mark 14:12-16 is necessarily the 14th Nisan.


Mar 14:17 And in the evening he cometh with the twelve.
Mar 14:18 And as they sat and did eat,

Mark 14:18 is necessarily the beginning of the 15th Nisan after the sunset of the 14th.

Mar 14:26 And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.

Mark 14:26 is still the beginning night time of the 15th Nisan.

Mar 14:53 And they led Jesus away to the high priest: and with him were assembled all the chief priests and the elders and the scribes.

Mark 14:53 is still the night of the 15th.

Mar 15:1 And straightway in the morning the chief priests held a consultation with the elders and scribes and the whole council, and bound Jesus, and carried him away, and delivered him to Pilate.

Mark 15:1 is the morning beginning daylight time of the 15th.

Mar 15:25 And it was the third hour, and they crucified him.

Mark 15:25 is around 9:00am still the 15th.

Mar 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Mark 15:34 is around 3:00pm afternoon of the 15th when Jesus died.

Mar 15:42 And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath,


Mark 15:42 is twilight/even/sundown of the 15th Nisan which is the preparation(paraskeue) for the seventh day weekly Sabbath.

Mar 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.
Mar 16:2 And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.

Mark 16:1 says that the weekly seventh day Sabbath had just passed and 16:2 says that they came to the sepulchre on the first day of the week at sunrise which would be the 17th Nisan.

Where does anyone see an extra day or days accounted for in this historical chronological narrative?

genuineoriginal
December 7th, 2013, 12:22 AM
But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.

"For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." (Matthew 12:39-40)

When Jesus said no sign except..., how many more signs do you think he gave?
If that is the only sign you accept, then you are adding yourself to the evil and adulterous generation.

Luke 11:29-32
29 And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet.
30 For as Jonas was a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation.
31 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with the men of this generation, and condemn them: for she came from the utmost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
32 The men of Nineve shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

Do you really want to be condemned with the evil generation, or are you willing to accept the other signs?

jamie
December 7th, 2013, 01:41 AM
If that is the only sign you accept, then you are adding yourself to the evil and adulterous generation.


Why are you twisting what I said?

I quoted to you the scripture where Jesus said (not I said) that no sign would be given except the sign of Jonah. You seem to be saying Jesus was mistaken. Why? What are you trying to prove?

rstrats
December 7th, 2013, 05:54 AM
jamie,

re: "... Jesus said (not I said) that no sign would be given except the sign of Jonah."


And yet in Mark 8:12 He says that no sign will be given.

rstrats
December 7th, 2013, 06:03 AM
Lon,

re: "What is the controversy, though?"

Sixth day crucifixion proponents say that only 2 night times were involved whereas the Messiah said that 3 night times would be (involved).

yeshuaslavejeff
December 7th, 2013, 06:21 AM
the controversy is simply because the world's largest deceiving chruch says it was 2 night times, so just by that a person of truth could see that it must be 3.

Scripture of course says 3 days and 3 nights, and it works out that only 72 hours fulfills all of Scripture concerning this.




re: "What is the controversy, though?"

Sixth day crucifixion proponents say that only 2 night times were involved whereas the Messiah said that 3 night times would be (involved).

rstrats
December 7th, 2013, 06:27 AM
Lon,

re: "Here is an article that portrays two ways of understanding this."

I don't see where the article provides writing from the first century or before which shows that a phrase stating a certain number of days and/or a certain number of nights was ever used when the period of time absolutely couldn't have included at least parts of each one of the specified number of days and at least parts of each one of the specified number of nights.

rstrats
December 7th, 2013, 07:40 AM
Lon,

re: "...A new day begins on the Jewish calendar in the evening..."


So does a new day begin in the evening on the Gregorian calendar.

rstrats
December 7th, 2013, 09:43 AM
Lon,

re: "I've not met anyone that didn't think it was 3 days."


But I bet you've met a number of those who don't think it was 3 nights.

steko
December 7th, 2013, 09:46 AM
14th Nisan:

Exo 12:6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.

Luk 22:7 Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed.
Luk 22:8 And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat.

Luk 22:11 And ye shall say unto the goodman of the house, The Master saith unto thee, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?
Luk 22:12 And he shall shew you a large upper room furnished: there make ready.
Luk 22:13 And they went, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.




15th Nisan:

Luk 22:14 And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.
Luk 22:15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:

Luk 22:54 Then took they him, and led him, and brought him into the high priest's house. And Peter followed afar off.

Luk 23:1 And the whole multitude of them arose, and led him unto Pilate.

Luk 23:33 And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left.

Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Luk 23:53 And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid.
Luk 23:54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.




16th Nisan:

Luk 23:56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.





17th Nisan:

Luk 24:1 Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.
Luk 24:2 And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre.

Luk 24:20 And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.
Luk 24:21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.


Luk 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

genuineoriginal
December 7th, 2013, 10:38 AM
Why are you twisting what I said?

I quoted to you the scripture where Jesus said (not I said) that no sign would be given except the sign of Jonah. You seem to be saying Jesus was mistaken. Why? What are you trying to prove?
Jesus said no sign except the sign of Jonah would be given to who?
It wasn't the signs given to the disciples or to anyone else that believed.

The sign of Jonah was only for the evil and adulterous generation, who already made up their mind that no sign from Jesus would be accepted.

I am not twisting what you said, I am trying to untwist your thinking about the sign of Jonah.

jamie
December 7th, 2013, 11:01 AM
And yet in Mark 8:12 He says that no sign will be given.


And yet Luke quotes Jesus as saying, "For as Jonah became a sign to the Ninevites, so also the Son of Man will be to this generation."
(Luke 11:30)

steko
December 7th, 2013, 11:05 AM
And yet Luke quotes Jesus as saying, "For as Jonah became a sign to the Ninevites, so also the Son of Man will be to this generation."
(Luke 11:30)

Jonah was dead.
GOD restored his life.
Supernatural acts of GOD authenticate the messenger and the message.

Jesus was dead.
He was raised from the dead.
Supernatural acts of GOD confirm the messenger and the message.

The sign is not 72 hours.

jamie
December 7th, 2013, 11:24 AM
The sign is not 72 hours.


What is the sign?

genuineoriginal
December 7th, 2013, 11:49 AM
What is the sign?

Luke 16:31
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Lon
December 19th, 2013, 11:33 AM
Lon,

re: "...A new day begins on the Jewish calendar in the evening..."


So does a new day begin in the evening on the Gregorian calendar.
No, on the Gregorian calendar, a new day begins at midnight whereas the Jewish Calendar begins while people are still awake. It does change things the way we understand and keep track. It is hard to convey from one to the other and keep it accurately in mind, at times.

jamie
December 19th, 2013, 01:51 PM
The sign is not 72 hours.


Well, of course not. How could it be? That is what scripture says, so why believe 72 hours? Especially when we can just make up whatever we want the scripture to say. How about 72 minutes or 72 fractions of a second?

rstrats
December 19th, 2013, 02:53 PM
Lon,

re: "No, on the Gregorian calendar, a new day begins at midnight whereas the Jewish Calendar begins while people are still awake."

I was including midnight as part of the evening. I may be incorrect, though, in thinking that the "evening" mentioned in Genesis means the dark portion of the calendar day.

BTW, what would the period be called if someone was still awake at midnight?

At any rate, what is your point in-so-far as it relates to the OP?

jamie
December 19th, 2013, 03:05 PM
BTW, what would the period be called if someone was still awake at midnight?


Mid-rats. If you're lucky with real eggs. Unlucky, powdered eggs. If you are really unlucky, powdered milk.

Jerry Shugart
December 19th, 2013, 03:58 PM
In the Jerusalem Talmud there is a quote by rabbi Eleazar ben Azariah, who lived around A.D. 100: “A day and night are an Onah [‘a portion of time’] and the portion of an Onah is as the whole of it” (from Jerusalem Talmud: Shabbath ix. 3, as quoted in Hoehner, 1974, pp. 248-249, bracketed comment in orig.). Azariah was referring to that a portion of a twenty-four hour period could be considered the same “as the whole of it.”

EXACTLY!

Nice job.

Jerry Shugart
December 19th, 2013, 04:05 PM
A new day begins on the Jewish calendar in the evening, if I remember correctly.

I am sure that is what you have been taught that but in reality the only thing which began in the evening on some days was the "sabbath rest." But the calenday day did not start in the evening but instead at the rising of the sun.

In the twentieth chapter of the Gospel of John we see the following events events that happened on resurrection Sunday, the first day of the week:


"The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre...Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that he had spoken these things unto her" (Jn.20:1,18).

The next verse proves that the evening of that day did not start a new day but instead remained a part of the first day of the week:


"Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you" (Jn.20:19).

jamie
December 19th, 2013, 04:08 PM
EXACTLY!

Nice job.


Yes, Jerry, you are welcome to go by the interpretations of various rabbis or on the other hand some people go by scripture. So provide the scriptural definition of an onah.

Maybe you can find a rabbi that will claim that 10 minutes on Yom Kippur fulfills the requirement of the law concerning Atonement by claiming onah.

It seems many will go to great lengths to keep from accepting what is written.

Jerry Shugart
December 19th, 2013, 04:27 PM
Yes, Jerry, you are welcome to go by the interpretations of various rabbis or on the other hand some people go by scripture. So provide the scriptural definition of an onah.

Maybe you can find a rabbi that will claim that 10 minutes on Yom Kippur fulfills the requirement of the law concerning Atonement by claiming onah.

It seems many will go to great lengths to keep from accepting what is written.

Any part of a day is counted as a full day. For instance, in Esther 4:16 and 5:1 we see that the queen ordered a fast for three days but yet she held a banquet on the third day.

So only a part of the third say counted as the whole day.

jamie
December 19th, 2013, 04:33 PM
What time was the evening sacrifice? Was it done in the dark?

jamie
December 19th, 2013, 04:36 PM
So only a part of the third say counted as the whole day.


So what counted as the first day of Jesus' entombment?

And what does the Greek word epiphosko mean?

Jerry Shugart
December 19th, 2013, 04:54 PM
So what counted as the first day of Jesus' entombment?

His entombment began on the sixth day of the week. And the first day of entombment ended at the rising of the sun of the seventh day.


And what does the Greek word epiphosko mean?

It means "to grow light, to dawn" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

intojoy
December 19th, 2013, 05:05 PM
I am sure that is what you have been taught that but in reality the only thing which began in the evening on some days was the "sabbath rest." But the calenday day did not start in the evening but instead at the rising of the sun.



In the twentieth chapter of the Gospel of John we see the following events events that happened on resurrection Sunday, the first day of the week:




"The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre...Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that he had spoken these things unto her" (Jn.20:1,18).



The next verse proves that the evening of that day did not start a new day but instead remained a part of the first day of the week:




"Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you" (Jn.20:19).


And the "evening" and the morning was the first day. Started by the night according to Genesis. The Jewish calendar is based on the lunar cycle and not the sun.

Jerry Shugart
December 19th, 2013, 05:42 PM
And the "evening" and the morning was the first day. Started by the night according to Genesis. The Jewish calendar is based on the lunar cycle and not the sun.

Then explain how the evening which followed the morning part of the first day of the the week could still be the "first day of the week"?

And why do we see the first day of the week begin at "dawn" here:


"In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre" (Mt.28:1).

jamie
December 19th, 2013, 05:46 PM
It means "to grow light, to dawn" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).


Absolutely right, Jerry.


And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on. (Luke 23:54 KJV)

The term "drew on" is from the Greek epiphosko, which means to dawn in a figurative sense. In other words a Sabbath began.

The RSV translates the verse this way: "It was the day of Preparation, and the sabbath was beginning."

jamie
December 19th, 2013, 05:59 PM
In the Jerusalem Talmud there is a quote by rabbi Eleazar ben Azariah, who lived around A.D. 100: “A day and night are an Onah [‘a portion of time’] and the portion of an Onah is as the whole of it” (from Jerusalem Talmud: Shabbath ix. 3, as quoted in Hoehner, 1974, pp. 248-249, bracketed comment in orig.). Azariah was referring to that a portion of a twenty-four hour period could be considered the same “as the whole of it.”


Let's say for the sake of discussion that Rabbi Eleazer was using the word "onah" in a Hebrew context. If this is true then what is the Greek equivalent of onah?

If you will provide the Greek equivalent of onah I will check the interlinear and see if that is the word used in the Greek text.

If the Greek equivalent is not there then I will conclude that onah is not a valid translation of the Greek text.

Jerry Shugart
December 19th, 2013, 07:45 PM
The RSV translates the verse this way: "It was the day of Preparation, and the sabbath was beginning."

The NASB translates the verse this way:


"It was the preparation day, and the Sabbath was about to begin."

That is the only translation which makes sense. The "preparation day" was the day before the Sabbath, as witnessed by the words of Josephus here:


"...it seemed good to me and my counselors, according to the sentence and oath of the people of Rome, that the Jews have liberty to make use of their own customs, according to the law of their forefathers, as they made use of them under Hyrcanus the high priest of the Almighty God; and that their sacred money be not touched, but be sent to Jerusalem, and that it be committed to the care of the receivers at Jerusalem; and that they be not obliged to go before any judge on the sabbath day, nor on the day of the preparation to it, after the ninth hour" (Josephus, Ant. xvi. 6. 2).

Of course what Josephus wrote was not inspired of God but it is inconceivable that he would not know the meaning of the words "prepartion day."

jamie
December 19th, 2013, 08:09 PM
The NASB translates the verse this way:


"It was the preparation day, and the Sabbath was about to begin."

That is the only translation which makes sense. The "preparation day" was the day before the Sabbath, as witnessed by the words of Josephus here:

[I]"...it seemed good to me and my counselors, according to the sentence and oath of the people of Rome, that the Jews have liberty to make use of their own customs, according to the law of their forefathers, as they made use of them under Hyrcanus the high priest of the Almighty God; and that their sacred money be not touched, but be sent to Jerusalem, and that it be committed to the care of the receivers at Jerusalem; and that they be not obliged to go before any judge on the sabbath day, nor on the day of the preparation to it, after the ninth hour" (Josephus, Ant. xvi. 6. 2).

Of course what Josephus wrote was not inspired of God but it is inconceivable that he would not know the meaning of the words "prepartion day."


There is nothing wrong with what Josephus wrote. It was the Preparation Day for Passover and Unleavened Bread.


So there they laid Jesus, because of the Jews’ Preparation Day, for the tomb was nearby. (John 19:42)

Jesus died about the ninth hour on Preparation Day.

Jerry Shugart
December 19th, 2013, 08:23 PM
There is nothing wrong with what Josephus wrote. It was the Preparation Day for Passover and Unleavened Bread.

The passover was already over by the time when the Lord Jesus was in the tomb (Lk.23:54-55):


"And ye shall say unto the goodman of the house, The Master saith unto thee, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?" (Lk.22:11).

steko
December 19th, 2013, 08:54 PM
There is nothing wrong with what Josephus wrote. It was the Preparation Day for Passover and Unleavened Bread.


So there they laid Jesus, because of the Jews’ Preparation Day, for the tomb was nearby. (John 19:42)

Jesus died about the ninth hour on Preparation Day.

No, Jesus and His disciples ate the Passover at GOD's appointed time for all Israel at sundown the beginning of Nisan 15.

Preparation/ Paraskeue/ Paraskeve is the Greek word for Friday, since the first century. It is the 'preparation' for the weekly Sabbath.

jamie
December 19th, 2013, 09:02 PM
No, Jesus and His disciples ate the Passover at GOD's appointed time for all Israel at sundown the beginning of Nisan 15.

Preparation/ Paraskeue/ Paraskeve is the Greek word for Friday, since the first century. It is the 'preparation' for the weekly Sabbath.

Why don't you go by what scripture says instead of nursing your own little pet theory that conflicts with scripture?

jamie
December 19th, 2013, 09:04 PM
The passover was already over by the time when the Lord Jesus was in the tomb (Lk.23:54-55):


"And ye shall say unto the goodman of the house, The Master saith unto thee, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?" (Lk.22:11).

We're done.

:wave:

steko
December 19th, 2013, 09:05 PM
Why don't you go by what scripture says instead of nursing your own little pet theory that conflicts with scripture?

That's directly from scripture and I demonstrated it.
Your's is the pet theory.
You ignore the plain text.

jamie
December 19th, 2013, 09:09 PM
That's directly from scripture and I demonstrated it.
Your's is the pet theory.
You ignore the plain text.


Nope. John said he died on Preparation Day. Preparation Day is not the Sabbath. He was entombed as the Sabbath began. After the Sabbath the women bought spices and oils to anoint the body and then rested on the weekly Sabbath.

steko
December 19th, 2013, 09:12 PM
Nope. John said he died on Preparation Day. Preparation Day is not the Sabbath. He was entombed as the Sabbath began. After the Sabbath the women bought spices and oils to anoint the body and then rested on the weekly Sabbath.

Do the chronological narratives of the gospels say that Jesus ate the passover with His disciples at GOD's appointed time, or not?

Jerry Shugart
December 19th, 2013, 11:16 PM
We're done.

Run, run, run away from the facts as fast as you can.

Jerry Shugart
December 19th, 2013, 11:20 PM
No, Jesus and His disciples ate the Passover at GOD's appointed time for all Israel at sundown the beginning of Nisan 15.

No, the passiver was always on the 14th.


"And in the fourteenth day of the first month is the passover of the LORD" (Num.28:16).

We can know that in Egypt the children of Israel partook of the Passover on the 14th and not the 15th because of what is said here:


"The Israelites set out from Rameses on the fifteenth day of the first month, the day after the Passover. They marched out boldly in full view of all the Egyptians" (Num.33:3).

steko
December 19th, 2013, 11:23 PM
No, the passiver was always on the 14th.


"And in the fourteenth day of the first month is the passover of the LORD" (Num.28:16).

We can know that in Egypt the children of Israel partook of the Passover on the 14th and not the 15th because of what is said here:


"The Israelites set out from Rameses on the fifteenth day of the first month, the day after the Passover. They marched out boldly in full view of all the Egyptians" (Num.33:3).

The lambs were killed on the fourteenth day at 'even'.
The meal was after sundown which began the fifteenth.

Lon
December 19th, 2013, 11:49 PM
Lon,

re: "No, on the Gregorian calendar, a new day begins at midnight whereas the Jewish Calendar begins while people are still awake."

I was including midnight as part of the evening. I may be incorrect, though, in thinking that the "evening" mentioned in Genesis means the dark portion of the calendar day.

BTW, what would the period be called if someone was still awake at midnight?

At any rate, what is your point in-so-far as it relates to the OP?

As it relates to the OP, we'd have to understand that for a Hebrew, the next day started at about 6PM. As such, it is hard for us to calculate hours given in the scriptures because we tend to think Gregorian. It is importing presumption, I think, upon the texts. We are bring in an imposition that likely doesn't belong there in trying to figure out what is being said about 3 days, in more ways than one.

jamie
December 20th, 2013, 02:32 AM
The lambs were killed on the fourteenth day at 'even'.
The meal was after sundown which began the fifteenth.


Yes.

jamie
December 20th, 2013, 02:54 AM
Do the chronological narratives of the gospels say that Jesus ate the passover with His disciples at GOD's appointed time, or not?


No.

Jesus was the Lamb of God, he was the Passover.


Then they led Jesus from Caiaphas to the Praetorium and it was early morning. But they themselves did not go into the Praetorium lest they should be defiled, but that they might eat the Passover. (John 18:28)

The Passover animals were killed that afternoon on the 14th and the meal was eaten that night after sundown, which is the night to be much observed.


It is a night to be much observed unto the LORD for bringing them out from the land of Egypt: this is that night of the LORD to be observed of all the children of Israel in their generations. (Exodus 12:42 KJV)

The night to be much observed was on the 15th, the day Christ brought Jacob's people out of Egypt. The 15th is a Sabbath.

As Jesus was laid in the tomb that Sabbath began. After the Sabbath the women purchased spices and fragrant oils to anoint the body. They prepared the spices and oils and rested on the weekly Sabbath.

The women did not have access to the body until Sunday morning.

jamie
December 20th, 2013, 03:04 AM
Do the chronological narratives of the gospels say that Jesus ate the passover with His disciples at GOD's appointed time, or not?



For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “Take, eat, this is My body which is broken for you, do this in remembrance of Me.”

In the same manner He also took the cup after supper saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.” (1 Corinthians 11:23-25)

The Passover for the church is a memorial service observed annually.

Jerry Shugart
December 20th, 2013, 09:42 AM
The lambs were killed on the fourteenth day at 'even'.
The meal was after sundown which began the fifteenth.

You are mistaken that the Jewish day began in the evening. In the twentieth chapter of the Gospel of John we see the following events events that happened on resurrection Sunday, the first day of the week:


"The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre...Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that he had spoken these things unto her" (Jn.20:1,18).

The next verse proves that the evening of that day did not start a new day but instead remained a part of the first day of the week:


"Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you" (Jn.20:19).

Please explain how the evening which followed the morning part of the first day of the the week could still be the "first day of the week"?

steko
December 20th, 2013, 10:39 AM
No.

Jesus was the Lamb of God, he was the Passover.


Then they led Jesus from Caiaphas to the Praetorium and it was early morning. But they themselves did not go into the Praetorium lest they should be defiled, but that they might eat the Passover. (John 18:28)

Read the chronology of Matthew, Mark and Luke step by step. They are clearly harmonious in marking the day on which the lambs were killed(14th) and that Jesus ate the Passover with his disciples at GOD's appointed time for Israel(15th).

Why does John 'appear' to be out of harmony with Matthew, Mark and Luke on this timeline?

Could John be speaking of some aspect of Passover week that is not readily apparent to our non-Jewish western thinking?


The Passover animals were killed that afternoon on the 14th and the meal was eaten that night after sundown, which is the night to be much observed.


It is a night to be much observed unto the LORD for bringing them out from the land of Egypt: this is that night of the LORD to be observed of all the children of Israel in their generations. (Exodus 12:42 KJV)

Yes, the lambs were killed on the afternoon of the 14th, however, John 18:28 is not referring to the 14th.
He is referring to the 15th, the day when all males made a freewill offering before the LORD, called the Chagigah and required ritual purity, thus Christ's accusers did not enter the Praetorium, lest they be defiled.


The night to be much observed was on the 15th, the day Christ brought Jacob's people out of Egypt. The 15th is a Sabbath.

Yes.

The first day being referenced in Ex 12:16 is the 15th, the feast of unleavened bread and is a 'holy convocation'. No work is to be done, but only that which is necessary to keep the feast. It is not a work-prohibition to the degree of the weekly seventh day Sabbath.

Exo 12:16 And in the first day there shall be an holy convocation, and in the seventh day there shall be an holy convocation to you; no manner of work shall be done in them, save that which every man must eat, that only may be done of you.
Exo 12:17 And ye shall observe the feast of unleavened bread; for in this selfsame day have I brought your armies out of the land of Egypt: therefore shall ye observe this day in your generations by an ordinance for ever.





As Jesus was laid in the tomb that Sabbath began. After the Sabbath the women purchased spices and fragrant oils to anoint the body. They prepared the spices and oils and rested on the weekly Sabbath.

Jesus was laid in the tomb on the afternoon of the 15th, just before sundown when the weekly seventh day Sabbath would begin.

Joh 19:42 There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews' preparation(paraskeue-Grk. Friday) day; for the sepulchre was nigh at hand.

Luk 23:54 And that day was the preparation(paraskeue-Friday), and the sabbath(Saturday) drew on.
Luk 23:55 And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid.
Luk 23:56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day(Saturday) according to the commandment.


Mark defines what the word 'paraskeue' means. It is the preparation for the weekly seventh day Sabbath.
On top of that 'Paraskeve' is the word used in Greece for our word 'Friday'. I had this discussion at the jail recently with a young Egyptian Coptic Christian, raised in Egypt. I asked him if he had ever heard the word 'Paraskeve'. He said, "Yes, in our liturgy, it's the day before the weekly Sabbath."

Mar 15:42 And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath,



The women did not have access to the body until Sunday morning.

True.


Luk 24:1 Now upon the first day of the week(Sunday), very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.

Mar 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.
Mar 16:2 And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.

Try reading the chronological narratives of Matthew, Mark and Luke without your preconceived notion of what John means by his language concerning the 'preparation'.

If you believe John is saying that Christ is crucified on the fourteenth when the lambs were killed in Israel, then you can't reconcile John with the narratives of Matthew, Mark and Luke.

Jesus ate the Passover at Israel's appointed time.

Mat 26:17 Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?
Mat 26:18 And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.
Mat 26:19 And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover.
Mat 26:20 Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve.
Mat 26:21 And as they did eat, he said, Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.

Mar 14:12 And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?

Mar 14:16 And his disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.
Mar 14:17 And in the evening he cometh with the twelve.
Mar 14:18 And as they sat and did eat

Luk 22:7 Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed.
Luk 22:8 And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat.


Luk 22:13 And they went, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.
Luk 22:14 And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.

jamie
December 20th, 2013, 01:27 PM
They are clearly harmonious in marking the day on which the lambs were killed(14th) and that Jesus ate the Passover with his disciples at GOD's appointed time for Israel(15th).


If I understand correctly you are saying that Jesus ate the Passover with his disciples at GOD's appointed time for Israel (15th).

Is that correct?

If so when are you saying that Jesus was crucified?

steko
December 20th, 2013, 07:23 PM
If I understand correctly you are saying that Jesus ate the Passover with his disciples at GOD's appointed time for Israel (15th).

Is that correct?

If so when are you saying that Jesus was crucified?

Yes, I am saying that Jesus and His disciples ate the Passover at GOD's appointed time and that's what Matthew, Mark and Luke clearly say and John, as well, but not as clearly to the western reader.

It plainly says that Jesus and His disciples ate the Passover, that He was betrayed the same night and the next morning, still the 15th, He was crucified.

He was crucified on the morning of the 15th.

jamie
December 20th, 2013, 07:43 PM
He was crucified on the morning of the 15th.


Did you know the 15th is an annual Sabbath?


Therefore, because it was the Preparation Day, that the bodies should not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. (John 19:31)

The 15th is an annual Sabbath referred to by John as a high day. The Greek word for high is megas meaning great.

steko
December 20th, 2013, 09:15 PM
Did you know the 15th is an annual Sabbath?


In post#157, I pointed out that the 15th is a Holy Convocation.
No work was to be done except that which was necessary to provide for the Chagigah/free will offering.



Therefore, because it was the Preparation Day, that the bodies should not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. (John 19:31)

The 15th is an annual Sabbath referred to by John as a high day. The Greek word for high is megas meaning great.

The word 'preparation' in John 19:31 is 'paraskeue'. It is the preparation necessary for the weekly seventh day Sabbath.
That weekly Sabbath was a 'high day'(yes, megas) because whenever one of GOD's appointed times coincided with a seventh day weekly Sabbath, that Sabbath was considered doubly Holy.
The LORD Jesus had to be buried before sundown which was the beginning of the seventh day Sabbath and the 'counting of the Omer'.

You're still ignoring the narratives of Matthew, Mark and Luke which give a very clear timeline.

Jesus and His disciples kept the Passover.

jamie
December 20th, 2013, 09:23 PM
You're still ignoring the narratives of Matthew, Mark and Luke which give a very clear timeline.


Actually, I'm not ignoring anything, but you are claiming Jesus was crucified on a Sabbath and that he was buried before the Sabbath began.

Your assertion is not scriptural and doesn't make sense, at least not to me.

steko
December 20th, 2013, 09:35 PM
Actually, I'm not ignoring anything, but you are claiming Jesus was crucified on a Sabbath and that he was buried before the Sabbath began.

Your assertion is not scriptural and doesn't make sense, at least not to me.

Scripture:

Mar 14:12 And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?
Mar 14:17 And in the evening he cometh with the twelve.
Mar 14:18 And as they sat and did eat,

Were the lambs killed on the 14th, or not?
Were they to eat the Passover on the 15th, or not?

jamie
December 20th, 2013, 11:27 PM
Were the lambs killed on the 14th, or not?


The Passover lambs were killed on the 14th and Jesus as the Lamb of God died on the 14th. As he was laid in the tomb the 15th began.

After the Sabbath on the 15th the women bought and prepared spices and fragrant oils to anoint his body. Since they did not have access to the body they rested on the weekly Sabbath and went to the tomb early Sunday morning.

steko
December 20th, 2013, 11:36 PM
The Passover lambs were killed on the 14th and Jesus as the Lamb of God died on the 14th. As he was laid in the tomb the 15th began.

After the Sabbath on the 15th the women bought and prepared spices and fragrant oils to anoint his body. Since they did not have access to the body they rested on the weekly Sabbath and went to the tomb early Sunday morning.

So, you disagree with Mark's testimony.

Okay, here's Luke's:

Luk 22:7 Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed.[14th]
Luk 22:8 And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat.

Luk 22:11 And ye shall say unto the goodman of the house, The Master saith unto thee, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?
Luk 22:12 And he shall shew you a large upper room furnished: there make ready.
Luk 22:13 And they went, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.
Luk 22:14 And when the hour was come[15th], he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.
Luk 22:15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:

According to Luke, the LORD Jesus ate the passover on the 15th with His disciples('before He suffered') and if you'll read further, He was crucified the next morning, still the 15th.

Throw away your preconceptions and look at it!
There it is!

jamie
December 21st, 2013, 12:04 AM
According to Luke, the LORD Jesus ate the passover on the 15th with His disciples('before He suffered') and if you'll read further, He was crucified the next morning, still the 15th.


Ok, let me see if I understand your premise. You are evidently claiming that the 14th was on a Friday, right? The Passover was killed on Friday afternoon and eaten after sundown on the weekly Sabbath. And then on Saturday morning Jesus was crucified and buried Saturday evening before sundown which began Sunday. Am I understanding you correctly?

steko
December 21st, 2013, 12:14 AM
Ok, let me see if I understand your premise. You are evidently claiming that the 14th was on a Friday, right? The Passover was killed on Friday afternoon and eaten after sundown on the weekly Sabbath. And then on Saturday morning Jesus was crucified and buried Saturday evening before sundown which began Sunday. Am I understanding you correctly?

Nope. The 14th was on Thursday.

The disciples prepared the Passover on Thursday the 14th and the LORD and His disciples ate the Passover together after sundown which began the 15th, Friday. The next morning, Jesus was crucified, still the 15th, and He was taken down from the cross before sundown of the 15th and laid in the tomb. Then the weekly Sabbath began at sundown, which was the beginning of the 16th.

1Mind1Spirit
December 21st, 2013, 03:03 AM
Nope. The 14th was on Thursday.

The disciples prepared the Passover on Thursday the 14th and the LORD and His disciples ate the Passover together after sundown which began the 15th, Friday. The next morning, Jesus was crucified, still the 15th, and He was taken down from the cross before sundown of the 15th and laid in the tomb. Then the weekly Sabbath began at sundown, which was the beginning of the 16th.

Agreed.
And there was still plenty of light for the women to see Jesus laid in the nearby tomb, and buy spices on the way home.:salute:

jamie
December 21st, 2013, 05:00 AM
Agreed.
And there was still plenty of light for the women to see Jesus laid in the nearby tomb, and buy spices on the way home.:salute:


Is that what they did?


Now when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, that they might come and anoint Him. (Mark 16:1)

When did the women buy their spices, before the Sabbath or after the Sabbath?

You say before the Sabbath, Mark says after the Sabbath.

1Mind1Spirit
December 21st, 2013, 05:21 AM
Is that what they did?


Now when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, that they might come and anoint Him. (Mark 16:1)

When did the women buy their spices, before the Sabbath or after the Sabbath?

You say before the Sabbath, Mark says after the Sabbath.

That's not what it says.

Try this uncut version.
They already had em.

Mark 16:1 KJV
And when the sabbath was past , Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.

jamie
December 21st, 2013, 05:32 AM
Nope. The 14th was on Thursday.

The disciples prepared the Passover on Thursday the 14th and the LORD and His disciples ate the Passover together after sundown which began the 15th, Friday. The next morning, Jesus was crucified, still the 15th, and He was taken down from the cross before sundown of the 15th and laid in the tomb. Then the weekly Sabbath began at sundown, which was the beginning of the 16th.


Ok, so you are saying Jesus died on Friday the 15th, which was a Sabbath.


On the next day, which followed the Day of Preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees gathered together to Pilate saying, “Sir, we remember, while He was still alive, how that deceiver said, ‘After three days I will rise.’ Therefore command that the tomb be made secure until the third day, lest His disciples come by night and steal Him away and say to the people, ‘He has risen from the dead.’ So the last deception will be worse than the first.”

Pilate said to them, “You have a guard, go your way, make it as secure as you know how.”

So they went and made the tomb secure, sealing the stone and setting the guard. (Matthew 27:62-66)

So you are saying that the chief priests and Pharisees went to Pilate on Saturday morning and requested that the tomb be sealed and a guard posted for three days, which would be Saturday, Sunday, and Monday.

However, on Sunday the two men commented that it was the third day.


But we were hoping that it was He who was going to redeem Israel. Indeed, besides all this, today is the third day since these things happened. (Luke 24:21)

Are you are claiming that the third day from Sunday is Saturday? If so how are you counting the days?

We know the women bought spices and fragrant oils after the Sabbath was past.


Now when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, that they might come and anoint Him. (Mark 16:1)

Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment.
(Luke 23:56)

So they bought their spices and fragrant oils after the Sabbath was past, they prepared the spices and oils and then rested on the weekly Sabbath.

This would not be possible with two Sabbaths back to back.

jamie
December 21st, 2013, 05:39 AM
That's not what it says.

Try this uncut version.
They already had em.

Mark 16:1 KJV
And when the sabbath was past , Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.


What day did they prepare the spices and oils?

1Mind1Spirit
December 21st, 2013, 05:53 AM
Ok, so you are saying Jesus died on Friday the 15th, which was a Sabbath.


On the next day, which followed the Day of Preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees gathered together to Pilate saying, “Sir, we remember, while He was still alive, how that deceiver said, ‘After three days I will rise.’ Therefore command that the tomb be made secure until the third day, lest His disciples come by night and steal Him away and say to the people, ‘He has risen from the dead.’ So the last deception will be worse than the first.”

Pilate said to them, “You have a guard, go your way, make it as secure as you know how.”

So they went and made the tomb secure, sealing the stone and setting the guard. (Matthew 27:62-66)

So you are saying that the chief priests and Pharisees went to Pilate on Saturday morning and requested that the tomb be sealed and a guard posted for three days, which would be Saturday, Sunday, and Monday.

However, on Sunday the two men commented that it was the third day.


But we were hoping that it was He who was going to redeem Israel. Indeed, besides all this, today is the third day since these things happened. (Luke 24:21)

Are you are claiming that the third day from Sunday is Saturday? If so how are you counting the days?

We know the women bought spices and fragrant oils after the Sabbath was past.


Now when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, that they might come and anoint Him. (Mark 16:1)

Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment. (Luke 23:56)

So they bought their spices and fragrant oils after the Sabbath was past, they prepared the spices and oild and then rested on the weekly Sabbath.

This would not be possible with two Sabbaths back to back.

The passover they are allowed to work, Israel loaded up and headed out of Egypt, come on get with the program.
The only time they had to buy the spices and prepare them was before sundown on passover.
The gospels all harmonize always.

If you look Mary was not with the other two as they came at the rising sun, she had already been there and gone.
This shows you that you cant hack out the word had and just leave bought in Marks version, if you do that you would also have to leave out Mary.
The women only could of legally bought and prepared the spices Friday afternoon.



John 20:1 KJV
The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

jamie
December 21st, 2013, 06:09 AM
The passover they are allowed to work, Israel loaded up and headed out of Egypt, come on get with the program.


Are you claiming the 15th was on Friday?


And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the LORD; seven days you must eat unleavened bread.

On the first day you shall have a holy convocation, you shall do no customary work on it. (Leviticus 23:6-7)

You say they could work on the 15th, the law says they could not.

If you are claiming Jesus was crucified on Friday then that Friday was a Sabbath and the women could not purchase their products until after the back to back Sabbaths, which would be Sunday.

1Mind1Spirit
December 21st, 2013, 06:30 AM
Are you claiming the 15th was on Friday?


And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the LORD; seven days you must eat unleavened bread.

On the first day you shall have a holy convocation, you shall do no customary work on it. (Leviticus 23:6-7)

You say they could work on the 15th, the law says they could not.

If you are claiming Jesus was crucified on Friday then that Friday was a Sabbath and the women could not purchase their products until after the back to back Sabbaths, which would be Sunday.

Pay attention here, passover is the last day of unleavened bread.
The first day is 6 days prior and is A Holy convocation.

ACTS 12
1 Now about that time Herod the king stretched forth his hands to vex certain of the church.

2 And he killed James the brother of John with the sword.

3 And because he saw it pleased the Jews, he proceeded further to take Peter also. (Then were the days of unleavened bread.)

4 And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people

jamie
December 21st, 2013, 06:39 AM
Pay attention here, passover is the last day of unleavened bread.
The first day is 6 days prior and is A Holy convocation.


You are totally confused aren't you?

Do you want me to help you? Or do you want stay where you are?

1Mind1Spirit
December 21st, 2013, 06:48 AM
You are totally confused aren't you?

Do you want me to help you? Or do you want stay where you are?

I'll play.......

Why is Peter being locked up during the days of unleavened bread, which is before passover?

jamie
December 21st, 2013, 09:09 AM
Why is Peter being locked up during the days of unleavened bread, which is before passover?


The Passover lambs and goats were killed on Nisan 14 and eaten that night after sundown, which is the begining of the 15th.


On the fourteenth day of the first month at twilight is the LORD’s Passover.

And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the LORD, seven days you must eat unleavened bread. On the first day you shall have a holy convocation, you shall do no customary work on it. But you shall offer an offering made by fire to the LORD for seven days.

The seventh day shall be a holy convocation; you shall do no customary work on it. (Leviticus 23:5-8)

The 15th is a Sabbath and is the first day of Unleavened Bread. The 21st is a Sabbath and is the last day of Unleavened Bread.


Now about that time Herod the king stretched forth his hands to vex certain of the church. And he killed James the brother of John with the sword. And because he saw it pleased the Jews, he proceeded further to take Peter also. (Then were the days of unleavened bread.)

And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people. (Acts 12:1-4)

The word "easter" is the Greek pascha which is translated 28 times as Passover and this once as Easter.

Easter is never the same day as Passover. The Passover is observed on the full moon after the vernal equinox. Easter is observed on the first Sunday after the full moon after the vernal equinox unless that Sunday coincides with Passover.

Passover can fall on any day of the week.

rstrats
December 21st, 2013, 10:02 AM
1Mind1Spirit,

re: "...passover is the last day of unleavened bread."

And yet Matthew 26:17 (KJV) says: "Now on the first day of the Feast of the Unleavened Bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying to Him, 'Where do You want us to prepare for You to eat the Passover'?"

jamie
December 21st, 2013, 12:36 PM
Jesus was laid in the tomb as Thursday began and was resurrected 72 hours later as Sunday began. Nothing else works.

Does anyone know the rationale for the invention of the Friday crucifixion?

intojoy
December 21st, 2013, 01:01 PM
Jesus was laid in the tomb as Thursday began and was resurrected 72 hours later as Sunday began. Nothing else works.



Does anyone know the rationale for the invention of the Friday crucifixion?


Lol

1Mind1Spirit
December 21st, 2013, 01:48 PM
1Mind1Spirit,

re: "...passover is the last day of unleavened bread."

And yet Matthew 26:17 (KJV) says: "Now on the first day of the Feast of the Unleavened Bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying to Him, 'Where do You want us to prepare for You to eat the Passover'?"

This I will agree with.

1Mind1Spirit
December 21st, 2013, 02:16 PM
1Mind1Spirit,

re: "...passover is the last day of unleavened bread."

And yet Matthew 26:17 (KJV) says: "Now on the first day of the Feast of the Unleavened Bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying to Him, 'Where do You want us to prepare for You to eat the Passover'?"

So then the passover is the second day of unleavened bread?
And the high day is not passover?
So I'm trying to see what's going on.
Your reckoning then, is that the first day of unleavened bread would have been Tuesday, am I correct?

jamie
December 21st, 2013, 02:36 PM
So then the passover is the second day of unleavened bread?
And the high day is not passover?
So I'm trying to see what's going on.
Your reckoning then, is that the first day of unleavened bread would have been Tuesday, am I correct?


Now on the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying to Him, “Where do You want us to prepare for You to eat the Passover?” (Matthew 26:17)

The Greek reads de prōtos azymos.

The words "day of the Feast" are not in the Greek text and the translation is misleading. What is actually being said is at the beginning of Unleavened Bread the disciples asked Jesus where he would eat the Passover.

The Passover is eaten the night that begins Unleavened Bread. The disciples did not understand that Jesus would be betrayed into the hands of the Jewish leaders and would in fact become the Lamb of God.

steko
December 21st, 2013, 02:48 PM
Ok, so you are saying Jesus died on Friday the 15th, which was a Sabbath.

Your insistence on emphasizing the 15th as a Sabbath equating with a seventh day Sabbath is not correct.

The 15th is a holy convocation, as I said before and what the text says. The 15th is the day on which the Chagigah is offered. This is a 'freewill' offering. If a man was going to make the freewill offering, he had to be ritually pure according to the law and work on that day could be done for those offerings. This type of work could not be done on a seventh day Sabbath.

I'm saying that Jesus died on the 15th, period. This is what the text says. He and His disciples ate the passover at Israel's appointed time.
Can you not see that in the text?
If you can see it and I cannot fathom why one could not, then this should be an absolute immovable presupposition to the rest of the study. If you cannot accept this, which scripture clearly presents, then we have nothing else to talk about.
If this fact is not accepted, then all other arguments concerning the timeline that contradict this fact are pointless.

Again, did Jesus and His disciples eat the Passover together at GOD's appointed time, which is the beginning of the 15th?



On the next day, which followed the Day of Preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees gathered together to Pilate saying, “Sir, we remember, while He was still alive, how that deceiver said, ‘After three days I will rise.’ Therefore command that the tomb be made secure until the third day, lest His disciples come by night and steal Him away and say to the people, ‘He has risen from the dead.’ So the last deception will be worse than the first.”

Pilate said to them, “You have a guard, go your way, make it as secure as you know how.”

So they went and made the tomb secure, sealing the stone and setting the guard. (Matthew 27:62-66)

This scripture is not needed at this point until the baseline is established, which is Christ and His disciples eating the Passover on the 15th after sundown of the 14th.


So you are saying that the chief priests and Pharisees went to Pilate on Saturday morning and requested that the tomb be sealed and a guard posted for three days, which would be Saturday, Sunday, and Monday.

Forget about our names for days, at this point.
I'm saying that the chief priests and Pharisees went to Pilate early on the morning of the 15th.

(And no, it wasn't Saturday morning.)


However, on Sunday the two men commented that it was the third day.


But we were hoping that it was He who was going to redeem Israel. Indeed, besides all this, today is the third day since these things happened. (Luke 24:21)

Yes, indeed!



Are you are claiming that the third day from Sunday is Saturday? If so how are you counting the days?

Certainly not.



We know the women bought spices and fragrant oils after the Sabbath was past.
Now when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, that they might come and anoint Him. (Mark 16:1)

Yep.


Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment. (Luke 23:56)
So they bought their spices and fragrant oils after the Sabbath was past, they prepared the spices and oild and then rested on the weekly Sabbath.


Yep.


This would not be possible with two Sabbaths back to back.

I don't know what that means.

The only Sabbath that is mentioned in all four gospel narratives is one seventh day Sabbath.

If one is claiming that the mention of a Sabbath in the narrative is speaking of the 15th, then this is completely mistaken.

steko
December 21st, 2013, 02:50 PM
Are you claiming the 15th was on Friday?


And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the LORD; seven days you must eat unleavened bread.

On the first day you shall have a holy convocation, you shall do no customary work on it. (Leviticus 23:6-7)

You say they could work on the 15th, the law says they could not.

If you are claiming Jesus was crucified on Friday then that Friday was a Sabbath and the women could not purchase their products until after the back to back Sabbaths, which would be Sunday.

This is at least one point where you're off, when you insist that the 15th is equal to a seventh day weekly Sabbath, with its laws.

steko
December 21st, 2013, 03:01 PM
Jesus was laid in the tomb as Thursday began and was resurrected 72 hours later as Sunday began. Nothing else works.

Does anyone know the rationale for the invention of the Friday crucifixion?

If one posits Matt 12:40 as an absolute 72 hour period and determines all argument on that presupposition, then that's the end of the discussion, for it doesn't matter what the chronological text says, it must be forced to conform to 72 hours.

Friday crucifixion is determined directly from the chronological narratives of Matthew, Mark and Luke first, and then dealing with John's unusual use of the word 'passover' and 'preparation'. When John's narrative is finally seen to conform with the other three, then it becomes clear that the 14th was Thursday, the 15th Friday, 16th, Saturday and the 17th Sunday.

Friday crucifixion is not an invention.

Why do even the Coptics Christians of Egypt still observe it this way along with Eastern Orthodox, RCC and Protestants?

A Wednesday or Thursday crucifixion are recent inventions, not Friday.

jamie
December 21st, 2013, 03:18 PM
The 15th is a holy convocation, as I said before and what the text says.


The seventh day Sabbath is also a holy convocation, meaning sacred assembly.


Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation. (Leviticus 23:3)

It would help if you would learn the law before trying refute scripture.

If you are just wanting to argue about the law, count me out.

1Mind1Spirit
December 21st, 2013, 03:32 PM
This is at least one point where you're off, when you insist that the 15th is equal to a seventh day weekly Sabbath, with its laws.

That's what I thought too.
In order to disprove this, Jamie has only offered text that leaves out words, and then says the other text was never there.
:idunno:

intojoy
December 21st, 2013, 03:38 PM
If the first century Jews could have proved the gospel writers to have grossly erred and that Yeshua had lied I reference to the statement three days and three nights, it would've been done long ago. The reason that there is no argument coming from Judaism on this is because they (unbelieving Jews) know that according to Jewish reckoning of time (night and day) that there was no argument. It is only Gentiles who stumble with it, like Jamie does. Because of her dislike for Jews, she completely ignores the arguments that were smoked in the first century.

Ridiculous, not thinking about it very deeply as it could be.

1Mind1Spirit
December 21st, 2013, 03:42 PM
Originally Posted by jamie


The Passover is eaten the night that begins Unleavened Bread. The disciples did not understand that Jesus would be betrayed into the hands of the Jewish leaders and would in fact become the Lamb of God.

What, did they have to wait until Paul told them?

jamie
December 21st, 2013, 04:11 PM
That's what I thought too.
In order to disprove this, Jamie has only offered text that leaves out words, and then says the other text was never there.
:idunno:


Do you have an interlinear showing the Greek texts?

If you dunno it's because you don't want to know.

1Mind1Spirit
December 21st, 2013, 04:24 PM
Do you have an interlinear showing the Greek texts?

If you dunno it's because you don't want to know.

No I dont have one of those.
But I did buy an NKJV once.
On it they said they only changed the thees, thous, and thines & eths
to make it easier to read.
They lied.


Mark 16:1 KJV
And when the sabbath was past , Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.

Oops they left out had which completely changes the meaning.

Mark 16:1 NKJV
Now when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, that they might come and anoint Him.

jamie
December 21st, 2013, 05:57 PM
Oops they left out had which completely changes the meaning.


Had is not in the Greek text, it was added by the KJV translators.

steko
December 21st, 2013, 10:56 PM
The seventh day Sabbath is also a holy convocation, meaning sacred assembly.


Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation. (Leviticus 23:3)

It would help if you would learn the law before trying refute scripture.

If you are just wanting to argue about the law, count me out.

Not me.

My posts mostly concern the chronological timeline in the historic narrative, which should be obvious by now.

:idunno:

jamie
December 22nd, 2013, 05:34 AM
My posts mostly concern the chronological timeline in the historic narrative, which should be obvious by now.


Ok, so why did you say, "Forget about our names for days, at this point. I'm saying that the chief priests and Pharisees went to Pilate early on the morning of the 15th. (And no, it wasn't Saturday morning.)?

That is a direct contradiction to what Matthew said.

On the next day, which followed the Day of Preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees gathered together to Pilate, saying, “Sir, we remember, while He was still alive, how that deceiver said, ‘After three days I will rise.’ (Matthew 27:62-63)

You claim Jesus died on Friday the 15th and then deny the chief priests and Pharisees went to Pilate the next morning after he died. Why?

You claim the annual Sabbath is not a Sabbath. Why?

You deny Jesus is the Passover. Why?

I don't mind discussing this issue with you but you keep denying scripture. Why?

steko
December 22nd, 2013, 05:56 AM
Ok, so why did you say, "Forget about our names for days, at this point. I'm saying that the chief priests and Pharisees went to Pilate early on the morning of the 15th. (And no, it wasn't Saturday morning.)?

That is a direct contradiction to what Matthew said.

On the next day, which followed the Day of Preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees gathered together to Pilate, saying, “Sir, we remember, while He was still alive, how that deceiver said, ‘After three days I will rise.’ (Matthew 27:62-63)

I'm sorry, I read your question wrong. Sometimes I need to slow down and read more carefully. I was thinking your question had to do with Christ being delivered to Pilate for judgement on the morning following His betrayal.

Yes, I believe that the chief priests and Pharisees went to Pilate on the day after the preparation/paraskeue for the seventh day Sabbath, which day would actually be the seventh day Sabbath.


You claim Jesus died on Friday the 15th and then deny the chief priests and Pharisees went to Pilate the next morning after he died. Why?

Answered.


You claim the annual Sabbath is not a Sabbath. Why?

The 15th is a holy convocation and no 'customary' work was to be done, but those things pertaining to the feast of unleavened bread and the Chagigah were not customary work.
The rules for the seventh day Sabbath were much stricter. That's all that I mean by it.


You deny Jesus is the Passover. Why?

I've never denied that Jesus is our Passover.


I don't mind discussing this issue with you but you keep denying scripture. Why?

No I don't.

Did Jesus and His disciples keep the Passover at GOD's appointed time for Israel?

jamie
December 22nd, 2013, 06:05 AM
No I don't.

Did Jesus and His disciples keep the Passover at GOD's appointed time for Israel?


No, Jesus was the Passover. He died on a day of preparation, not on an annual Sabbath. He was laid in the tomb as the Sabbath began.

The women observed him being placed in the tomb and the day after the Sabbath they bought spices and fragrant oils to anoint the body and then they rested on the weekly Sabbath.

On Sunday morning the tomb was to be unsealed and the women went to the tomb to anoint the body.

steko
December 22nd, 2013, 06:10 AM
No, Jesus was the Passover. He died on a day of preparation, not on an annual Sabbath. He was laid in the tomb as the Sabbath began.

The women observed him being placed in the tomb and the day after the Sabbath they bought spices and fragrant oils to anoint the body and then they rested on the weekly Sabbath.

On Sunday morning the tomb was to be unsealed and the women went to the tomb to anoint the body.

Then....you are the one who is denying scripture.


Luk 22:7 Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed.
Luk 22:8 And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat.
Luk 22:11 And ye shall say unto the goodman of the house, The Master saith unto thee, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?
Luk 22:12 And he shall shew you a large upper room furnished: there make ready.
Luk 22:13 And they went, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.
Luk 22:14 And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.
Luk 22:15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:

Do you just close your eyes to this......or what?

Please explain it.

jamie
December 22nd, 2013, 06:43 AM
Then....you are the one who is denying scripture.



Then came the Day of Unleavened Bread when the Passover must be killed. (Luke 22:7)

The day of the Unleavened Bread festival when the Passover is killed is the Preparation Day.

The Passover is killed the afternoon of the 14th, dressed out, taken home, roasted and eaten that night after sundown.

Jesus and his disciples did not keep the Passover they kept this Passover. Scripture does not say what they ate but after supper Jesus instituted this Passover, the one for the church.

Paul said, "For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us. Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth." (1 Corinthians 5:7-8)

The church is prohibited from keeping Israel's Passover so Jesus instituted a new covenant Passover for the church. Jesus had to keep his Passover a night early because he was to be the Passover to be sacrificed the next day when the Mosaic Passovers were sacrificed.

steko
December 22nd, 2013, 06:45 AM
Then came the Day of Unleavened Bread when the Passover must be killed. (Luke 22:7)

The day of the Unleavened Bread festival when the Passover is killed is the Preparation Day.

The Passover is killed the afternoon of the 14th, dressed out, taken home, roasted and eaten that night after sundown.

Jesus and his disciples did not keep the Passover they kept this Passover. Scripture does not say what they ate but after supper Jesus instituted this Passover, the one for the church.

Paul said, "For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us. Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth."

The church is prohibited from keeping Israel's Passover so Jesus instituted a new covenant Passover for the church. Jesus had to keep his Passover a night early because he was to be the Passover to be sacrificed the next day when the Mosaic Passovers were sacrificed.

Totally absurd!

jamie
December 22nd, 2013, 06:50 AM
Totally absurd!


Yep, that's all you say with no explanation. I provide you scriptures, but you just provide your opinion based on your misunderstanding of scripture.

Do you even keep the Passover?

steko
December 22nd, 2013, 06:59 AM
Yep, that's all you say with no explanation. I provide you scriptures, but you just provide your opinion based on your misunderstanding of scripture.

Do you even keep the Passover?

The scripture that I provided from Luke is plain.

Jesus and His disciples kept Israel's Passover at GOD's appointed time for all Israel, the beginning of the 15th Nisan.

Jesus was put on the cross the next morning of the 15th.

Jesus is my Passover.

I've kept many Passover Seders and led them, as well, though it is not something of necessity.

jamie
December 22nd, 2013, 08:06 AM
Jesus was put on the cross the next morning of the 15th.


Jesus was crucified on the Day of Preparation, not on a holy day.


Therefore, because it was the Preparation Day, that the bodies should not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day). (John 19:31.

That day was the Preparation and the Sabbath drew on. (Luke 23:54 KJV)

Now when evening had come, because it was the Preparation Day, that is, the day before the Sabbath. (Mark 15:42)

On the next day, which followed the Day of Preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees gathered together to Pilate, saying, "Sir, we remember, while He was still alive, how that deceiver said, ‘After three days I will rise.’" (Matthew 27:62-63)

Four of the four gospels say that Jesus died on the Preparation Day, not on a Sabbath. Why do you not believe the gospel accounts?

jamie
December 22nd, 2013, 08:39 AM
The 15th is a holy convocation and no 'customary' work was to be done, but those things pertaining to the feast of unleavened bread and the Chagigah were not customary work.
The rules for the seventh day Sabbath were much stricter. That's all that I mean by it.



Upon the six holy days in the Jewish calendar — the first and seventh days of Passover, the first and eighth days of Sukkot (Tabernacles), the day of Shebu'ot (Weeks), and the day of Rosh ha-Shanah (New-Year) — the Bible prohibits every kind of labor (Lev. xxiii. 7, 8, 21, 25, 35, 36). The punishment prescribed for the transgressor of this law is stripes (see Crime). All kinds of work forbidden on the Sabbath are forbidden also on the holy days, except such work as is necessary for the preparation of food for the day of the festival (Ex. xii. 16; Beẓah 36a). (Jewish Encyclopedia / Holy Days)

steko
December 22nd, 2013, 09:07 AM
Upon the six holy days in the Jewish calendar — the first and seventh days of Passover, the first and eighth days of Sukkot (Tabernacles), the day of Shebu'ot (Weeks), and the day of Rosh ha-Shanah (New-Year) — the Bible prohibits every kind of labor (Lev. xxiii. 7, 8, 21, 25, 35, 36). The punishment prescribed for the transgressor of this law is stripes (see Crime). All kinds of work forbidden on the Sabbath are forbidden also on the holy days, except such work as is necessary for the preparation of food for the day of the festival (Ex. xii. 16; Beẓah 36a). (Jewish Encyclopedia / Holy Days)

Yep....that's basically what I said.

jamie
December 22nd, 2013, 09:18 AM
The Preparation Day referred to in John 19:31 is the Preparation Day for the Passover.

Now it was the Preparation Day of the Passover, and about the sixth hour. And he said to the Jews, “Behold your King!” (John 19:14).

The Passover observance can fall on any day of the week just like July 4 can fall on any day of the week, or December 25 can fall on any day of the week. So the "Preparation day of the Passover" has nothing to do with Friday, the sixth day of the week.

jamie
December 22nd, 2013, 09:23 AM
Yep....that's basically what I said.


Ok, so we must be making progress. Do you also agree that Jesus was crucified on the Preparation Day for the Passover?

steko
December 22nd, 2013, 09:27 AM
The Preparation Day referred to in John 19:31 is the Preparation Day for the Passover.

That's one of the main places where John is misunderstood.
This is the 'preparation/paraskeue' of the seventh day Sabbath during the 'Passover/Feast of unleavened bread' week.
'Paraskeue' is always the preparation for the seventh day Sabbath, wherever it is used in scripture.
'Hetoimazo' is the word used for the 'preparation' of the Passover meal and is always used in this way.



Now it was the Preparation Day of the Passover, and about the sixth hour. And he said to the Jews, “Behold your King!” (John 19:14).


The Passover observance can fall on any day of the week just like July 4 can fall on any day of the week, or December 25 can fall on any day of the week. So the "Preparation day of the Passover" has nothing to do with Friday, the sixth day of the week.

The 'paraskeue' is always referring to the sixth day of the week.

steko
December 22nd, 2013, 09:29 AM
Ok, so we must be making progress. Do you also agree that Jesus was crucified on the Preparation Day for the Passover?

No. Jesus was crucified on the 'paraskeue' of the Passover, not for.

The 'preparation' for the Passover is always 'hetoimazo'.

jamie
December 22nd, 2013, 10:36 AM
The 'preparation' for the Passover is always 'hetoimazo'.


The Greek word hetoimasia is used one time in the NT in Ephesians.

"and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace..." (Ephesians 6:15)

The word "hetoimasia" is never used in the NT with regard to the Passover.

jamie
December 22nd, 2013, 10:41 AM
'Paraskeue' is always the preparation for the seventh day Sabbath, wherever it is used in scripture.

The 'paraskeue' is always referring to the sixth day of the week.

The Greek paraskeuē is used six times in the NT and never with regard to the sixth day of the week. Never in the NT.

jamie
December 22nd, 2013, 10:48 AM
No. Jesus was crucified on the 'paraskeue' of the Passover, not for.



Now it was the Preparation Day of the Passover... (John 19:14)

John is referring to the seven day Feast of Passover during which unleavened bread must be eaten.

John is not referring to the Passover meal to be eaten that night.

steko
December 22nd, 2013, 11:14 AM
The Greek word hetoimasia is used one time in the NT in Ephesians.

"and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace..." (Ephesians 6:15)

The word "hetoimasia" is never used in the NT with regard to the Passover.

I said 'hetoimazo'.

Mat 26:17 Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare[2090-hetoimazo] for thee to eat the passover[3957-pascha-pesach]?
Mat 26:18 And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.
Mat 26:19 And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready[2090-hetoimazo] the passover[3957-pascha-pesach]. [14th]
Mat 26:20 Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve.
Mat 26:21 And as they did eat[15th], he said, Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.

Mar 14:12 And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover[3957-pascha-pesach]. [14th], his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare[2090-hetoimazo] that thou mayest eat the passover[3957-pascha-pesach]?
Mar 14:13 And he sendeth forth two of his disciples, and saith unto them, Go ye into the city, and there shall meet you a man bearing a pitcher of water: follow him.
Mar 14:14 And wheresoever he shall go in, say ye to the goodman of the house, The Master saith, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?
Mar 14:15 And he will shew you a large upper room furnished and prepared: there make ready[2090-hetoimazo] for us.
Mar 14:16 And his disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready[2090-hetoimazo] the passover[3957-pascha-pesach].

Luk 22:7 Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed.[14th]
Luk 22:8 And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us[2090-hetoimazo] the passover[3957-pascha-pesach], that we may eat.
Luk 22:9 And they said unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare[2090-hetoimazo]?
Luk 22:10 And he said unto them, Behold, when ye are entered into the city, there shall a man meet you, bearing a pitcher of water; follow him into the house where he entereth in.
Luk 22:11 And ye shall say unto the goodman of the house, The Master saith unto thee, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover[3957-pascha-pesach] with my disciples?
Luk 22:12 And he shall shew you a large upper room furnished: there make ready.
Luk 22:13 And they went, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready[2090-hetoimazo] the passover[3957-pascha-pesach].
Luk 22:14 And when the hour was come, he sat down[15th], and the twelve apostles with him.
Luk 22:15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover[3957-pascha-pesach] with you before I suffer:

steko
December 22nd, 2013, 11:18 AM
The Greek paraskeuē is used six times in the NT and never with regard to the sixth day of the week. Never in the NT.

The word 'paraskeue' is used every time with reference to the sixth day in the NT.

In Greece today, it is the word for the sixth day and has been since the first century, having come from the early Jewish Church usage.

jamie
December 22nd, 2013, 11:23 AM
I said 'hetoimazo'.


Yes, I should have said Preparation Day, I wasn't referring to the meal. My point being that Jesus is the Passover. He did not institute a seder service, he instituted a different service.

jamie
December 22nd, 2013, 11:25 AM
The word 'paraskeue' is used every time with reference to the sixth day in the NT.


How many times is paraskeue used in the NT and which NT scripture relates it to the sixth day of the week. Let's take a look at that verse.

steko
December 22nd, 2013, 01:00 PM
Yes, I should have said Preparation Day, I wasn't referring to the meal. My point being that Jesus is the Passover. He did not institute a seder service, he instituted a different service.

It was the Passover Seder.

Luk 22:15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover[3957-pascha-pesach] with you before I suffer:


Jesus ate the Passover with His disciples, it says plainly in Matthew, Luke and Mark.

It's the same 'supper' recorded here:

Joh 13:4 He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself.

.......though John doesn't emphasize it as being the Passover meal as the other three gospel writers do.

It is the Passover Seder meal and Jesus fills it up with more meaning, beyond that of the Exodus, applying it to Himself and His(the lamb of GOD) blood that would be shed.

Jesus ate the Passover with His disciples at GOD's appointed time for all Israel.

I'm am amazed that anyone could miss it. It's right there in the text.

jamie
December 22nd, 2013, 01:08 PM
It was the Passover Seder.


So what did Jesus eat for his Passover seder?

jamie
December 22nd, 2013, 01:09 PM
Have we agreed that Jesus was crucified on the Passover Preparation Day?

steko
December 22nd, 2013, 01:29 PM
How many times is paraskeue used in the NT and which NT scripture relates it to the sixth day of the week. Let's take a look at that verse.

Luk 23:52 This man went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus.
Luk 23:53 And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid.

Luk 23:54 And that day was the preparation[paraskeue], and the sabbath drew on.


It was the eve of the weekly Sabbath and the lights were already lit in the homes as was necessary before the Sabbath began.
Note the use of the word 'paraskeue', here in verse 54.
Why is it not also used in 23:56 and in 24:1?
Or why is 'hetoimazo' not used in all three places?


Luk 23:55 And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid.

The women followed to the tomb, just before sundown, the 'paraskeue' of the Sabbath.



Luk 23:56 And they returned, and prepared[2090-hetoimazo] spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

Then they returned to wherever they were staying in Jerusalem and prepared[hetoimazo, not paraskeue] things to carry to the tomb after the weekly Sabbath was past. This also had to be done before sundown.



Luk 24:1 Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared[hetoimazo-2090], and certain others with them.

After the seventh day Sabbath was past, they were then free to return to the tomb to minister to the body the things that they had prepared before the Sabbath. This took place early in the morning on the first day of the week.

intojoy
December 22nd, 2013, 01:39 PM
Have we agreed that Jesus was crucified on the Passover Preparation Day?


Negatory

jamie
December 22nd, 2013, 01:54 PM
Luk 23:54 And that day was the preparation[paraskeue], and the sabbath drew on.


Ok, so we have established that Jesus was crucified on Preparation Day and the Sabbath drew on. What does drew on mean? From what Greek word is drew on translated?

I know when I draw on my coat that means I put it on. Is that what you mean?

steko
December 22nd, 2013, 01:56 PM
Have we agreed that Jesus was crucified on the Passover Preparation Day?

Nope.
Jesus ate the Passover with His disciples at the appointed time for all Israel.

He was crucified on the 15th, which was the 'paraskeue' for the weekly Sabbath.

The 'hetoimazo' for the Passover, the day they killed the lambs, was on the 14th as it says here:

Luk 22:7 Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed.
Luk 22:8 And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare[hetoimazo] us the passover[pascha/pesach], that we may eat.

Really......how can you not see this?

jamie
December 22nd, 2013, 01:59 PM
It was the eve of the weekly Sabbath and the lights were already lit in the homes as was necessary before the Sabbath began.


What verse are you referring to here?

steko
December 22nd, 2013, 02:04 PM
What verse are you referring to here?

Luk 23:54 And that day was the preparation[paraskeue], and the sabbath drew on.

jamie
December 22nd, 2013, 02:05 PM
He was crucified on the 15th, which was the 'paraskeue' for the weekly Sabbath.


I keep asking what verse are you referring to that says paraskeue is the sixth day of the week?

Do you not realize that a Sabbath can be any day of the week?

The term "paraskeue" can refer to Wednesday just as easy as it can refer to Friday. Show me where paraskeue is defined in the NT as the sixth day of the week.

steko
December 22nd, 2013, 02:06 PM
So what did Jesus eat for his Passover seder?

The lamb like every other Jew that night, as is commanded in Ex 12, etc.

jamie
December 22nd, 2013, 02:11 PM
Luk 23:54 And that day was the preparation[paraskeue], and the sabbath drew on.


You said, "It was the eve of the weekly Sabbath and the lights were already lit in the homes as was necessary before the Sabbath began."

"kai hēmera ēn paraskeuē kai sabbaton epiphōskō" (Luke 23:54)

Now which of these Greek words are you claiming means weekly?

steko
December 22nd, 2013, 02:15 PM
Ok, so we have established that Jesus was crucified on Preparation Day and the Sabbath drew on. What does drew on mean? From what Greek word is drew on translated?

I know when I draw on my coat that means I put it on. Is that what you mean?

Luk 23:54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on[epiphosko].

epiphosko- shined forth

"three things a man is obliged to say in the midst of his house on the evening of the sabbath, when it is near dark, have ye tithed? have ye mixed? (i.e. the borders of the sabbath, the courts and food) הדליקו הנר, "light the lamp".''

"the lighting of the lamp on the sabbath is not in a man's power, (or at his liberty,) if he pleases he may light, and if not, he may not light.----But it is what he is obliged to, and every man and woman are bound to have in their houses a lamp lighted up on the sabbath; and though he has nothing to eat, he must beg, and get oil, and light a lamp; for this is included in the delight of the sabbath.----And he that lights, ought to light within the day, before the setting of the sun.''

So that when these lamps were every where lighting, before the sun was set, and the sabbath properly come, it might be said to draw on, or to be shining forth. Besides, it was usual to call the evening of any day by the name of "light"

jamie
December 22nd, 2013, 02:26 PM
Luk 23:54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on[epiphosko].

epiphosko- shined forth


So are you saying that in a figurative sense a new day dawned as Jesus was laid in the tomb?

Epiphosko is translated dawn in Matthew 28:1.

Now after the Sabbath, as the first day of the week began to dawn... (Matthew 28:1)

So is it possible that epiphosko can mean dawn?

jamie
December 22nd, 2013, 07:38 PM
It's like I said, burial as Thursdy began and resurrection as Sunday began. Nothing else works but you gave it a nice try.

The problem with your theory is that Jesus was not buried on Friday, so there goes the three days sign.

1Mind1Spirit
December 22nd, 2013, 07:58 PM
Then came the Day of Unleavened Bread when the Passover must be killed. (Luke 22:7)

The day of the Unleavened Bread festival when the Passover is killed is the Preparation Day.

The Passover is killed the afternoon of the 14th, dressed out, taken home, roasted and eaten that night after sundown.

Jesus and his disciples did not keep the Passover they kept this Passover. Scripture does not say what they ate but after supper Jesus instituted this Passover, the one for the church.

Paul said, "For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us. Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth." (1 Corinthians 5:7-8)

The church is prohibited from keeping Israel's Passover so Jesus instituted a new covenant Passover for the church. Jesus had to keep his Passover a night early because he was to be the Passover to be sacrificed the next day when the Mosaic Passovers were sacrificed.

If they didn't know that Jesus was inventing a new passover why would they ask him on the wrong day?
And why would the dude who's house they went to not say, hey, 'yer a little early aint yuh?

before you answer dont forget this post.



Now on the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying to Him, “Where do You want us to prepare for You to eat the Passover?” (Matthew 26:17)

The Greek reads de prōtos azymos.

The words "day of the Feast" are not in the Greek text and the translation is misleading. What is actually being said is at the beginning of Unleavened Bread the disciples asked Jesus where he would eat the Passover.

The Passover is eaten the night that begins Unleavened Bread. The disciples did not understand that Jesus would be betrayed into the hands of the Jewish leaders and would in fact become the Lamb of God.

1Mind1Spirit
December 22nd, 2013, 08:09 PM
Matthew 26:17 KJV
Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?

Mark 14:12 KJV
And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?

Make up my mind please. :wazzup:

steko
December 22nd, 2013, 08:22 PM
I keep asking what verse are you referring to that says paraskeue is the sixth day of the week?

Do you not realize that a Sabbath can be any day of the week?

The term "paraskeue" can refer to Wednesday just as easy as it can refer to Friday. Show me where paraskeue is defined in the NT as the sixth day of the week.

There are four days accounted for in the gospel narratives.
Counting backwards from the first day of the week, there is the First in which He rose, then the Seventh which is the Sabbath, then the Sixth on which He was crucified and ate the Passover and the FiFTH on which the Passover Lambs were killed. Paraskeue is plainly the SIXTH.

Show me where another day is accounted for in the chronological order. It 's not there.





FIFTH DAY OF WEEK Nisan 14


Mat 26:17 Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?
Mat 26:18 And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.
Mat 26:19 And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover.


SIXTH DAY OF WEEK Nisan 15

Mat 26:20 Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve.
Mat 26:21 And as they did eat, he said, Verily I say unto you, that

Mat 27:1 When the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death:
Mat 27:2 And when they had bound him, they led him away, and delivered him to Pontius Pilate the governor.

Mat 27:35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments,

Mat 27:57 When the even was come, there came a rich man of Arimathaea, named Joseph, who also himself was Jesus' disciple:


SEVENTH DAY OF WEEK Nisan 16

Mat 27:62 Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate,


FIRST DAY OF WEEK Nisan 17

Mat 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FIFTH DAY OF WEEK NISAN 14

Mar 14:12 And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?


SIXTH DAY OF WEEK NISAN 15

Mar 14:17 And in the evening he cometh with the twelve.
Mar 14:18 And as they sat and did eat

Mar 15:1 And straightway in the morning the chief priests held a consultation with the elders and scribes and the whole council, and bound Jesus, and carried him away, and delivered him to Pilate.

Mar 15:25 And it was the third hour, and they crucified him.

Mar 15:42 And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath,


SEVENTH DAY OF WEEK NISAN 16

No verses.


FIRST DAY OF WEEK NISAN 17


Mar 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.
Mar 16:2 And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FIFTH DAY OF WEEK NISAN 14

Luk 22:7 Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed.


SIXTH DAY OF WEEK NISAN 15


Luk 22:14 And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.
Luk 22:15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:

Luk 23:33 And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him

Luk 23:53 And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid.
Luk 23:54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.


SEVENTH DAY OF WEEK NISAN 16


Luk 23:56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.



FIRST DAY OF WEEK NISAN 17

Luk 24:1 Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices



All the days are accounted for in the narratives.
Show me where you can add one more day to the chronology.
Cite the verse.
There's not one.

The first day He rose. (This is immovable, so one must start counting from there)
The seventh day He was in the tomb.
The sixth day He was crucified.
The fifth day the lambs were killed.


The lambs were killed on the 14th.(This is immovable so one must count from there)
The Passover was eaten on the 15th. (This is immovable, so count)
Christ was crucified and buried on the 15th.
He rested in the tomb on the 16th.
He rose on the 17th.

Paraskeue is always the preparation for the weekly Sabbath.
By the math in the chronology, paraskeue has to be the sixth day.

steko
December 22nd, 2013, 08:29 PM
Matthew 26:17 KJV
Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?

Mark 14:12 KJV
And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?

Make up my mind please. :wazzup:

Are you saying that these don't appear to harmonize?

They do!

steko
December 22nd, 2013, 08:33 PM
It's like I said, burial as Thursdy began and resurrection as Sunday began. Nothing else works but you gave it a nice try.

The problem with your theory is that Jesus was not buried on Friday, so there goes the three days sign.

Oh it works. You're just not looking at it and thinking about it.


As I said earlier, if you insist on a literal 72 hours then it's a forgone conclusion and there was no point in our discussing this at all.
But you can't make 72 hours fit the chronological timelines.
Show me an extra day in the narrative. Cite the verse.

steko
December 22nd, 2013, 08:35 PM
It's like I said, burial as Thursdy began and resurrection as Sunday began. Nothing else works but you gave it a nice try.

The problem with your theory is that Jesus was not buried on Friday, so there goes the three days sign.

He couldn't be buried on Thursday the 14th and instruct His disciples concerning preparation for eating the Passover.

jamie
December 22nd, 2013, 09:37 PM
You skipped my question.



Luk 23:54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on[epiphosko].

epiphosko- shined forth


So are you saying that in a figurative sense a new day dawned as Jesus was laid in the tomb?

Epiphosko is translated dawn in Matthew 28:1.

Now after the Sabbath, as the first day of the week began to dawn... (Matthew 28:1)

So is it possible that epiphosko can mean dawn?

jamie
December 22nd, 2013, 09:45 PM
Christ was crucified and buried on the 15th.


As Jesus was laid in the tomb a new day dawned (epiphosko).

So he was not in the tomb on the day he died.


It was the day of Preparation, and the sabbath was beginning. (Luke 23:54 RSV)

The word "beginning" is epiphosko.

So he was not in the tomb on the day he died.

1Mind1Spirit
December 22nd, 2013, 09:50 PM
Are you saying that these don't appear to harmonize?

They do!

Yes they do.:thumb:

No I was pointing out she was confusing me as to whether or not the disciples knew Jesus' plan to start a new passover.
Even if I believed her that the first day of unleavened bread were added to both scriptures,(which i dont) Now I would have to believe that both these verses need to be erased, if I am to believe her about the disciples not knowing about Jesus' supposed new passover plan.
Hence :wazzup:

jamie
December 22nd, 2013, 10:04 PM
Yes they do.:thumb:

No I was pointing out she was confusing me as to whether or not the disciples knew Jesus' plan to start a new passover.
Even if I believed her that the first day of unleavened bread were added to both scriptures,(which i dont) Now I would have to believe that both these verses need to be erased, if I am to believe her about the disciples not knowing about Jesus' supposed new passover plan.


The words in italics are italicized to inform the reader that those words were added by the translators and are not in the Greek texts. The added words were intended to help but sometimes they hinder.

Steko may be able to verify this for you, I don't know. If not you can ask TOL in the form of a new thread.

At any rate the Passover is not killed on one of the actual seven days of Unleavened Bread.

steko
December 22nd, 2013, 10:04 PM
You skipped my question.



So are you saying that in a figurative sense a new day dawned as Jesus was laid in the tomb?

I didn't skip it intentionally. It sometimes takes me hours to write this stuff thus it takes awhile to get around to all of your questions.
I feel like you ignore most of my answers and I'm beginning to get weary of all of this, since it's going nowhere, and I've only argued this subject a hundred times over the last thirty-five years.

I'm agreeing with the text which states that says that Christ was taken down and laid in the tomb just before the 'shining forth' of the Sabbath. It clearly states that it took place on the day which was the paraskeue of the Sabbath.

The 'shining forth' is signifying the lighting of lamps in the homes which they all were required to do and could not be done once the Sabbath had commenced.




Luk 23:53 And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid.
Luk 23:54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.
Luk 23:55 And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid.
Luk 23:56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.




Epiphosko is translated dawn in Matthew 28:1.

Now after the Sabbath, as the first day of the week began to dawn... (Matthew 28:1)

So is it possible that epiphosko can mean dawn?

The 'shining forth' in Mat 28:1 is the 'shining forth' of the sun as the new day began.

'phosko' has to do with 'light', whatever the source.

1Mind1Spirit
December 22nd, 2013, 10:06 PM
As Jesus was laid in the tomb a new day dawned (epiphosko).

So he was not in the tomb on the day he died.


It was the day of Preparation, and the sabbath was beginning. (Luke 23:54 RSV)

The word "beginning" is epiphosko.

So he was not in the tomb on the day he died.

You are way confused.
He was laid in the tomb the afternoon of his crucifixion, the sabbath started that evening.
Why would you think the verse about the women visiting the tomb on Sunday has anything to do with the day he was buried.
I might see where you would be confused if you have a verse stating that passover is a Sabbath.
Do You?

steko
December 22nd, 2013, 10:09 PM
As Jesus was laid in the tomb a new day dawned (epiphosko).

So he was not in the tomb on the day he died.


It was the day of Preparation, and the sabbath was beginning. (Luke 23:54 RSV)

The word "beginning" is epiphosko.

So he was not in the tomb on the day he died.

He had to be laid in the tomb on the day He died because it was the paraskeue of the Sabbath and they couldn't do anything with His body after sundown.

epiphosko is translated 'beginning' but it is literally a 'shining forth' having to do with light. That's what phosko is.....light.

jamie
December 22nd, 2013, 10:10 PM
No I was pointing out she was confusing me as to whether or not the disciples knew Jesus' plan to start a new passover.


Although Jesus made it clear that he would die the disciples were reluctant to believe he had been resurrected.


It was Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and the other women with them who told these things to the apostles. And their words seemed to them like idle tales, and they did not believe them. (Luke 24:10-11)

jamie
December 22nd, 2013, 10:15 PM
epiphosko is translated 'beginning' but it is literally a 'shining forth' having to do with light. That's what phosko is.....light.


The word means dawn literally or figuratively.

As Jesus was laid in the tomb a new day dawned in a figurative sense.

jamie
December 22nd, 2013, 10:16 PM
He had to be laid in the tomb on the day He died because it was the paraskeue of the Sabbath and they couldn't do anything with His body after sundown.


You never provided the verse that identifies Preparation Day as the sixth day.

jamie
December 22nd, 2013, 10:18 PM
You are way confused.
He was laid in the tomb the afternoon of his crucifixion, the sabbath started that evening.
Why would you think the verse about the women visiting the tomb on Sunday has anything to do with the day he was buried.
I might see where you would be confused if you have a verse stating that passover is a Sabbath.
Do You?


There are two annual Sabbaths and one weekly Sabbath during Passover.

steko
December 22nd, 2013, 10:20 PM
The word means dawn literally or figuratively.

As Jesus was laid in the tomb a new day dawned in a figurative sense.

I can go with that, except He was laid in the tomb before the new day commenced, according to the text. The women still had time to return and prepare spices and 'whatnot' before the Sabbath began.