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beloved57
October 3rd, 2012, 07:47 AM
Before any man or woman can believe in or on Christ regarding Justification or Salvation, they must first be in Union with Him Spiritually, that is already abiding in Him, we know this by Christ's words here Jn 15:5

I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Jesus alludes to the same truth here Jn 6:56

56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

The eating and drinking here signifies believing or appropriating Christ by Faith, and Jesus said, the ones doing that, are dwelling or abiding in Him, and He is in them ! That denotes Pre Union !

In other words, their believing is the fruit of being in Him and Him being in them by Spiritual New Birth. We must first be a branch in the Vine before we can bear fruit, and Faith is one of the Fruits of the Spirit Gal 5:22 !

The Ground must first be made good before the Gospel message can take root and bring forth fruit Matt 13:23

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Notice the words here bringeth forth, meaning fruit and observe the same in Jn 15:5

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Without Christ, separate from we can do nothing, spiritually as to believe or rest in Him for all of Salvation !

So before believing, one must be already united to Christ, we must be, before we can believe in Him !

ChristNU
October 3rd, 2012, 07:57 AM
So unbelievers are spiritually united with Christ??

beloved57
October 3rd, 2012, 08:45 AM
So unbelievers are spiritually united with Christ??

Yes, those Christ died for. They are unbelievers until they hear the Truth.

Now if you mean unbelievers that are under condemnation and wrath as in Jn 3:18 and Jn 3:36 Then no they are not.

So now that I have answered your question, please deal with the points I made in the OP, show me if they are not accurate, and then show us how they are accurate, until then, do not evade the post again..

ChristNU
October 3rd, 2012, 08:57 AM
Yes, those Christ died for. They are unbelievers until they hear the Truth.

Now if you mean unbelievers that are under condemnation and wrath as in Jn 3:18 and Jn 3:36 Then no they are not.

So now that I have answered your question, please deal with the points I made in the OP, show me if they are not accurate, and then show us how they are accurate, until then, do not evade the post again..

So, there are different kinds of unbelievers??

beloved57
October 3rd, 2012, 09:30 AM
So, there are different kinds of unbelievers??

You are going on ignore if you ask me another question without doing what I asked. You have been fairly warned !

beloved57
October 3rd, 2012, 05:44 PM
Scripture is clear that the Lord Jesus Christ is the author [causer] of our Faith and the Finisher Heb 12:2

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

That word author is the greek word archēgos and means:


the chief leader, prince

a) of Christ

2) one that takes the lead in any thing and thus affords an example, a predecessor in a matter, pioneer

3) the author

Now this word is made up of Two greek words one is archē and means:


beginning, origin

2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader

3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause

4) the extremity of a thing

a) of the corners of a sail

5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy

a) of angels and demons

Now Jesus Christ is the First active cause of our Faith. Now understand, the writer is not only speaking of believers under the New Covenant, but also of all the believers under the Old Covenant as outlined in Chapter 11 of Hebrews. Yes, He was the Author of their Faith even though He had not yet became incarnate, Yet He was still their Mediator and Surety before His Incarnation and so was the Author and Finisher of their Faith, the Captain of their Salvation !

But I said all that to bring up this, in order for Christ to be the Author of our Faith and to communicate it to us, there had to be a Union with Him prior to, as the branch must be united to the root before it can bring forth fruit Jn 15:4-5

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

john w
October 3rd, 2012, 06:29 PM
Before any man or woman can believe in or on Christ regarding Justification or Salvation, they must first be in Union with Him Spiritually, that is already abiding in Him, we know this by Christ's words here Jn 15:5

I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Jesus alludes to the same truth here Jn 6:56

56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

The eating and drinking here signifies believing or appropriating Christ by Faith, and Jesus said, the ones doing that, are dwelling or abiding in Him, and He is in them ! That denotes Pre Union !

In other words, their believing is the fruit of being in Him and Him being in them by Spiritual New Birth. We must first be a branch in the Vine before we can bear fruit, and Faith is one of the Fruits of the Spirit Gal 5:22 !

The Ground must first be made good before the Gospel message can take root and bring forth fruit Matt 13:23

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Notice the words here bringeth forth, meaning fruit and observe the same in Jn 15:5

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Without Christ, separate from we can do nothing, spiritually as to believe or rest in Him for all of Salvation !

So before believing, one must be already united to Christ, we must be, before we can believe in Him !

"So before believing, one must be already united to Christ, we must be, before we can believe in Him !"-bedeviled

Calvinist/Clavinist translation: Since I am already "united to Christ," there is no reason to believe.

Log in...lose your mind. That "Calvinism/Clavinism in a nutshell.

beloved57
October 3rd, 2012, 06:39 PM
"So before believing, one must be already united to Christ

Yes, I just finished explaining that. Show me what is inaccurate in the previous posts that I just spent time explaining !

beloved57
October 3rd, 2012, 08:56 PM
If it is being taught that one must first believe in order to get eternal life, then we fall into salvation by works, based upon the same principle of Law under the Old Covenant which is do and Live, much like those jews who were ignorant of Salvation by Grace Rom 10:4-5

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

The principle here is that if men must do to live ! Yes, if there is no life until we believe, then thats works !

However, the Covenant of Grace is the opposite, for in it men must first live in order to do, for God in this Covenant first gives Life, and from that comes the doing ! Ezk 36:26-27

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit[Life] will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit[New Life Principle] within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

But, if one must first do to get new Life and a New Spirit and a New Heart, that is reverted back to the Old Covenant principle of works and Law !

Now many will say, that believing or Faith is the opposite to works Rom 4:4-5

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Now when faith or believing is opposed to works, it is understood objectively, that is, it is understood of Christ believed on as the object of faith after He is revealed to one in the Gospel as their Righteousness, and not the act of believing, for without a doubt, ones act of believing is just as much as our doing as ones act of love, So again, if we must first do, act, perform before we obtain life in Christ, we are back to Law !

beloved57
June 9th, 2015, 06:42 PM
Isa 54:5

For thy Maker is thine husband; the Lord of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

The word Maker is a term used in Creation Gen 1:7,16,25

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good

Neh 9:6

6 Thou, even thou, art Lord alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.

Gen 1:26

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Gen 2:18

And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

In Isa 54:5 Christ is speaking to His Church, whom He Created in His Own Likeness and Image, His Wife ! He also is Her Redeemer, for She was made for a Redemptive Purpose in Him !

Gill comments on Isa 54:5


For thy Maker is thine Husband,.... That is, Christ, the Husband of the church, and of every true believer; who secretly betrothed them to himself in eternity, having asked him of his father; and, being given to him, openly espouses them in conversion, one by one, as a chaste virgin; which he will do more publicly in a body at the last day, when the marriage of the Lamb will be come, when he will appear as the bridegroom of his people; and to which character he acts up, by loving them with a love of complacency and delight, most affectionately and constantly; by sympathizing with them in all their troubles; by nourishing and cherishing them as his own flesh, and interesting them in all he is and has. It is, in the Hebrew text (k) "thy Makers, thy Husbands", Father, Son, and Spirit; though the relation of a husband is more peculiar to Christ; and the words are a reason of the church's fruitfulness, and why she need not fear the performance of what was promised her; and which is wonderful and amazing; he who stands in such a near and endearing relation to his church and people, is the "Maker" of all things, yea, their Maker, both as creatures, and as new creatures:

Adam and Eve at Creation were a picture of Christ and the Church, A Mystery Eph 5:30-32

30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Vs 31 is taken from the Creation Narrative Gen 2:23-24

23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Now because the Marriage Union legally existed with Christ and the Church before the foundation Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us[The Church Eph 5:25] in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

It was manifested in the Creation of Adam and Eve, for this is important to establish why the Churches sin debt was His, and His Redemptive Payment was hers !

Understand something, If not for this Elective Union of Christ and His Church before the foundation, there was No Legal basis for her sins to be charged to Christ for Him to come into the world and die for !

Where we read 1 Jn 4:10

Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

If not for the Election Union and Legal Marriage of Christ and the Church before the foundation, God could not have Justly and legally sent Christ into the World to be a propitiation for her sins !

glorydaz
June 9th, 2015, 06:50 PM
Before any man or woman can believe in or on Christ regarding Justification or Salvation, they must first be in Union with Him Spiritually, that is already abiding in Him, we know this by Christ's words here Jn 15:5

I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Jesus alludes to the same truth here Jn 6:56

56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

The eating and drinking here signifies believing or appropriating Christ by Faith, and Jesus said, the ones doing that, are dwelling or abiding in Him, and He is in them ! That denotes Pre Union !

In other words, their believing is the fruit of being in Him and Him being in them by Spiritual New Birth. We must first be a branch in the Vine before we can bear fruit, and Faith is one of the Fruits of the Spirit Gal 5:22 !

The Ground must first be made good before the Gospel message can take root and bring forth fruit Matt 13:23

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Notice the words here bringeth forth, meaning fruit and observe the same in Jn 15:5

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Without Christ, separate from we can do nothing, spiritually as to believe or rest in Him for all of Salvation !

So before believing, one must be already united to Christ, we must be, before we can believe in Him !

Wrong, wrong, and wrong, but I wouldn't waste one single minute showing you where you're wrong. You're exactly like God's UNtruth. You have a big mouth but no ears. :nono:

beloved57
June 9th, 2015, 07:22 PM
Wrong, wrong, and wrong, but I wouldn't waste one single minute showing you where you're wrong. You're exactly like God's UNtruth. You have a big mouth but no ears. :nono:

You quoted my post, did you read and understand the points made ?

glorydaz
June 9th, 2015, 07:25 PM
You quoted my post, did you read and understand the points made ?

I read the verses you were twisting and contorting to try and prove the nonsense you preach. Not one of those verse mean what you want them to. Yep, I understood.

beloved57
June 9th, 2015, 07:52 PM
I read the verses you were twisting and contorting to try and prove the nonsense you preach. Not one of those verse mean what you want them to. Yep, I understood.

If you read them, please explain back what I explained !

Nanja
June 15th, 2015, 03:50 PM
Isa 54:5

For thy Maker is thine husband; the Lord of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

The word Maker is a term used in Creation Gen 1:7,16,25

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good

Neh 9:6

6 Thou, even thou, art Lord alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.

Gen 1:26

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Gen 2:18

And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

In Isa 54:5 Christ is speaking to His Church, whom He Created in His Own Likeness and Image, His Wife ! He also is Her Redeemer, for She was made for a Redemptive Purpose in Him !

Gill comments on Isa 54:5



Adam and Eve at Creation were a picture of Christ and the Church, A Mystery Eph 5:30-32

30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Vs 31 is taken from the Creation Narrative Gen 2:23-24

23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Now because the Marriage Union legally existed with Christ and the Church before the foundation Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us[The Church Eph 5:25] in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

It was manifested in the Creation of Adam and Eve, for this is important to establish why the Churches sin debt was His, and His Redemptive Payment was hers !

Understand something, If not for this Elective Union of Christ and His Church before the foundation, there was No Legal basis for her sins to be charged to Christ for Him to come into the world and die for !

Where we read 1 Jn 4:10

Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

If not for the Election Union and Legal Marriage of Christ and the Church before the foundation, God could not have Justly and legally sent Christ into the World to be a propitiation for her sins !


Amen to this excellent post!


Because Christ's Redemptive Purpose was only for His Church in Union with Him before the foundation Eph. 1:4,
I believe that scriptural fact proves that it was only His Church that was Made in the Image and Likeness of God exclusively, as opposed to false religion's teaching which maintains that all of humanity was made in the Image and Likeness of God.

Adam at Creation, before he sinned as Head of his wife Eve when she sinned, are a perfect representation of Christ and His Church, of which He is their Covenant Head: the Children of the Kingdom, the Sons of God, and the Good Seed in Union with Him.

But all the rest of humanity are children of the wicked one Ps. 37:28 KJV, the seed of the serpent John 8:44; Mat. 23:33
sowed into the world by the devil, and which seed was only added to Adam's posterity after his and his wife's sin in the garden.

Mat. 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: (v.33) and he shall separate them one from another,
as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: (v.33) And he shall set the sheep on his right hand,
but the goats on the left. (v.34)Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father,
inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: (v41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels

Christ never loved the tares, nor did He die for their sins.

Consequently, no amount of believing, or any other work they do in the flesh, has the ability to please God Rom. 8:8.

God ordained them to be condemned.

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation,
ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God,
and our Lord Jesus Christ.

~~~~~

beloved57
June 15th, 2015, 04:03 PM
Amen to this excellent post!


Because Christ's Redemptive Purpose was only for His Church in Union with Him before the foundation Eph. 1:4,
I believe that scriptural fact proves that it was only His Church that was Made in the Image and Likeness of God exclusively, as opposed to false religion's teaching which maintains that all of humanity was made in the Image and Likeness of God.

Adam at Creation, before he sinned as Head of his wife Eve when she sinned, are a perfect representation of Christ and His Church, of which He is their Covenant Head: the Children of the Kingdom, the Sons of God, and the Good Seed in Union with Him.

But all the rest of humanity are children of the wicked one Ps. 37:28 KJV, the seed of the serpent John 8:44; Mat. 23:33
sowed into the world by the devil, and which seed was only added to Adam's posterity after his and his wife's sin in the garden.

Mat. 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: (v.33) and he shall separate them one from another,
as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: (v.33) And he shall set the sheep on his right hand,
but the goats on the left. (v.34)Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father,
inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: (v41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels

Christ never loved the tares, nor did He die for their sins.

Consequently, no amount of believing, or any other work they do in the flesh, has the ability to please God Rom. 8:8.

God ordained them to be condemned.

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation,
ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God,
and our Lord Jesus Christ.

~~~~~

Amen, God has blessed your understanding of the Truth as it is in Christ Jesus!

Nanja
June 15th, 2015, 04:52 PM
Amen, God has blessed your understanding of the Truth as it is in Christ Jesus!


TY! I receive it, Brother!

For thou, LORD, hast made me glad through thy work:
I will triumph in the works of thy hands. - Ps. 92:4

~~~~~

beloved57
June 16th, 2015, 09:42 PM
Believers are the Sons of God even before they believe in Christ, in the same sense that they are the Sheep of Christ before they become believers ! Remember what Jesus said about those Sheep that would hear His voice in the future here Jn 10:16

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

They were already His Sheep before they heard and believed, because remember Faith cometh by hearing, and when one believes they become the manifested Sheep of Christ or Sons of God Jn 1:12 !

A Couple of more examples, the Lost Sheep was still a Sheep of Christ, even while being Lost Lk 15:1-7, and likewise the Lost Son was still a Son while being Lost, thats why the Father said Lk 15:24

24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

That means the Lost Son was already in a Legal Union Relationship while dead and lost spiritually !

So again believers are sons of God before they become believers and that is why they shall become believers, because they must be confirmed into the image of Christ, their Firstborn Brother Rom 8:29 ! We know this also by Heb 2:17

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Christ in His humiliation/incarnation was made like unto His brethren, and this is brethren in the spiritual sense. Remember these brethren are also earlier called sons Heb 2:10 !

Now were all whom were His brethren believers when He first was born of the virgin mary ? The answer is no, the brethren of Heb 2:17 are the same brethren in Rom 8:29, and because He is the Son of God, His brethren are sons also, they are just unmanifested sons until regeneration, and because they are redeemed sons, the Spirit [and His fruit] are given them to manifest them as such Gal 4:6

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

By them also being Sons, they had to be redeemed Gal 4:4-5

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them[Sons] that were under the law, that we[Sons] might receive the adoption of sons.

They receive the Spirit so that they also now begin doing the Will of their Father like their elder Brother Christ does Mk 3:35

33 And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren?

34 And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

beloved57
June 16th, 2015, 09:57 PM
Now many unlearned people think that the brethren Christ was made like unto in Heb 2:17 that its speaking of Abraham's physical descendants the jews, but thats a serious mistake because of this, the brethren there are the children here Heb 2:13-14

13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children or sons which God hath given me.

14 Forasmuch then as the children or sons are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Vs 13 also tells us that the True Sons of God will put their Trust in Him, another word for Faith !

Now remember in another scripture it speaks of Abraham's children according to the flesh, meaning the corporate nation of israel, which it says of them this Rom 9:8

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

So that cancels out any false ideal that the brethren of Christ in Heb 2:17, or the Children of God in Heb 2:13-14 are referring to ethnic jews in the flesh ! The only way it applies to a jew by ethnicty, is if that jew , like any Gentile is given the Spirit of Adoption and Faith in Christ, so it comes to past Gal 3:26

For ye are all the[Manifested] children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Nanja
June 17th, 2015, 06:46 AM
Before any man or woman can believe in or on Christ regarding Justification or Salvation, they must first be in Union with Him Spiritually, that is already abiding in Him, we know this by Christ's words here Jn 15:5

I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Jesus alludes to the same truth here Jn 6:56

56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

The eating and drinking here signifies believing or appropriating Christ by Faith, and Jesus said, the ones doing that, are dwelling or abiding in Him, and He is in them ! That denotes Pre Union !

In other words, their believing is the fruit of being in Him and Him being in them by Spiritual New Birth. We must first be a branch in the Vine before we can bear fruit, and Faith is one of the Fruits of the Spirit Gal 5:22 !

The Ground must first be made good before the Gospel message can take root and bring forth fruit Matt 13:23

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Notice the words here bringeth forth, meaning fruit and observe the same in Jn 15:5

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Without Christ, separate from we can do nothing, spiritually as to believe or rest in Him for all of Salvation !

So before believing, one must be already united to Christ, we must be, before we can believe in Him !


Amen, exactly true to the scriptures!

Apart from being in Union with Christ, a person has no ability to please God whatsoever.
Only if one is given New Birth John 3:27, can he/she receive God's Spirit and partake of
His Fruit and Gifts, of which one is Believing: Faith in Him.

~~~~~

beloved57
June 17th, 2015, 07:46 AM
Amen, exactly true to the scriptures!

Apart from being in Union with Christ, a person has no ability to please God whatsoever.
Only if one is given New Birth John 3:27, can he/she receive God's Spirit and partake of
His Fruit and Gifts, of which one is Believing: Faith in Him.

~~~~~

For sure !

God's Truth
June 17th, 2015, 08:10 AM
Wrong, wrong, and wrong, but I wouldn't waste one single minute showing you where you're wrong. You're exactly like God's UNtruth. You have a big mouth but no ears. :nono:

You rightly judged beloved57 and you.

God's Truth
June 17th, 2015, 08:12 AM
Before any man or woman can believe in or on Christ regarding Justification or Salvation, they must first be in Union with Him Spiritually, that is already abiding in Him, we know this by Christ's words here Jn 15:5

I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Jesus alludes to the same truth here Jn 6:56

56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

The eating and drinking here signifies believing or appropriating Christ by Faith, and Jesus said, the ones doing that, are dwelling or abiding in Him, and He is in them ! That denotes Pre Union !

In other words, their believing is the fruit of being in Him and Him being in them by Spiritual New Birth. We must first be a branch in the Vine before we can bear fruit, and Faith is one of the Fruits of the Spirit Gal 5:22 !

The Ground must first be made good before the Gospel message can take root and bring forth fruit Matt 13:23

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Notice the words here bringeth forth, meaning fruit and observe the same in Jn 15:5

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Without Christ, separate from we can do nothing, spiritually as to believe or rest in Him for all of Salvation !

So before believing, one must be already united to Christ, we must be, before we can believe in Him !

Jesus does not save unbelievers.

Jesus saves those who search.

Jesus saves those who thirst.

Jesus saves those who believe.



Would you like scripture references?

beloved57
June 17th, 2015, 08:52 AM
Jesus does not save unbelievers.

Jesus saves those who search.

Jesus saves those who thirst.

Jesus saves those who believe.



Would you like scripture references?

Did you understand my points made?

God's Truth
June 17th, 2015, 09:05 AM
Did you understand my points made?

I do understand what you say and why you say it.

However, it is not in the Bible.

Jesus does not say save people before they are saved. That is nonsense.

beloved57
June 17th, 2015, 09:52 AM
I do understand what you say and why you say it.

However, it is not in the Bible.

Jesus does not say save people before they are saved. That is nonsense.

Okay then prove it, that you understand what I stated and why !

Robert Pate
June 17th, 2015, 11:05 AM
Before any man or woman can believe in or on Christ regarding Justification or Salvation, they must first be in Union with Him Spiritually, that is already abiding in Him, we know this by Christ's words here Jn 15:5

I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Jesus alludes to the same truth here Jn 6:56

56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

The eating and drinking here signifies believing or appropriating Christ by Faith, and Jesus said, the ones doing that, are dwelling or abiding in Him, and He is in them ! That denotes Pre Union !

In other words, their believing is the fruit of being in Him and Him being in them by Spiritual New Birth. We must first be a branch in the Vine before we can bear fruit, and Faith is one of the Fruits of the Spirit Gal 5:22 !

The Ground must first be made good before the Gospel message can take root and bring forth fruit Matt 13:23

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Notice the words here bringeth forth, meaning fruit and observe the same in Jn 15:5

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Without Christ, separate from we can do nothing, spiritually as to believe or rest in Him for all of Salvation !

So before believing, one must be already united to Christ, we must be, before we can believe in Him !


100% heresy. No one is saved without hearing and believing the Gospel.

beloved57
June 17th, 2015, 11:08 AM
100% heresy. No one is saved without hearing and believing the Gospel.

Did you understand that post and the points I made?

God's Truth
June 17th, 2015, 11:32 AM
Okay then prove it, that you understand what I stated and why !

Show the scripture that says God saves unbelievers.

Robert Pate
June 17th, 2015, 11:32 AM
Did you understand that post and the points I made?

I understand that you are TOL's star heretic.

beloved57
June 17th, 2015, 11:34 AM
I understand that you are TOL's star heretic.

It's a lot of things you don't understand!

beloved57
June 17th, 2015, 11:35 AM
Show the scripture that says God saves unbelievers.

Are you going to prove it ?

Robert Pate
June 17th, 2015, 12:00 PM
It's a lot of things you don't understand!

I and a lot of other Forum members understand that.

beloved57
June 17th, 2015, 12:42 PM
I understand that you are TOL's star heretic.

Did y'all understand the points made by me?

beloved57
October 2nd, 2015, 09:15 AM
Are those Christ died for in Union with Him before they believe ? The answer to this very important question is absolutely YES, for there did and must have been a Union between Himself and them He died for, or their could not have been any just and legal grounds for Him to have died for their sins, no grounds for their sins to have been charged to His account, and such scriptures as these would be invalid and without legal warrant 1 Cor 15:3

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

This is without warrant if no previous Union existed !

1 Pet 2:24

24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

This is without warrant if no previous Union existed !

Isa 53:5

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

This is without warrant if no previous Union existed !

Now understand, this Union between them and Him had to be and was just as real and legally binding as it was for them in Adam, since if they were not really legally in Adam when he sinned, then they could not have sinned with him as it is surely indicated in Rom 5:12

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

All men sinned in and by Adams One sin, death passed upon all men because of Adams sinned,

or better yet they could not have been made sinners by Adams one act of disobedience as indicated here Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

This could not have justly occurred apart from a legal union recognized by the Judge of all the earth, God !

Paul writes that all die IN ADAM 1 Cor 15:22

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

The word in here is a prep that means:

en (a preposition) – properly, in (inside, within); (figuratively) "in the realm (sphere) of," as in the condition (state) in which something operates from the inside (within).

This denotes a Union in Adam, in that Union all died with Adam !

But in antithesis all in Christ shall be made alive, So all in Christ legally shall be made alive; Now we have already showed that in order for Christ to have died for our sins 1 Cor 15:3, He had to be in a Legal binding Union with Us, as it was likewise with us in Adam, and such Union constituted us as being In Christ, as no less as being in Adam, and because of being in Christ legally for Him to die for us, there can never be from God legally any condemnation charged to us, Rom 8:1

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Those of Us Christ died for, sin cannot and will not be charged or imputed to us Rom 4:8

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. Not to impute sin is not to impute condemnation as well !

So, if there was no Union with Christ before Faith, Christ's death could not have been for us, and faith in Christ would be in vain or to no avail with God !

God's Truth
October 2nd, 2015, 11:22 AM
Are you going to prove it ?

Show the scripture that says God saves unbelievers.

beloved57
October 2nd, 2015, 11:24 AM
Show the scripture that says God saves unbelievers.

See my threads! You and I don't believe in the same God anyway! By the way, did you understand the points in the previous post?

God's Truth
October 2nd, 2015, 11:25 AM
I understand that you are TOL's star heretic.

And you are the champion of those like you who are in your specific falseness.

Robert Pate
October 2nd, 2015, 11:35 AM
Before any man or woman can believe in or on Christ regarding Justification or Salvation, they must first be in Union with Him Spiritually, that is already abiding in Him, we know this by Christ's words here Jn 15:5

I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Jesus alludes to the same truth here Jn 6:56

56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

The eating and drinking here signifies believing or appropriating Christ by Faith, and Jesus said, the ones doing that, are dwelling or abiding in Him, and He is in them ! That denotes Pre Union !

In other words, their believing is the fruit of being in Him and Him being in them by Spiritual New Birth. We must first be a branch in the Vine before we can bear fruit, and Faith is one of the Fruits of the Spirit Gal 5:22 !

The Ground must first be made good before the Gospel message can take root and bring forth fruit Matt 13:23

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Notice the words here bringeth forth, meaning fruit and observe the same in Jn 15:5

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Without Christ, separate from we can do nothing, spiritually as to believe or rest in Him for all of Salvation !

So before believing, one must be already united to Christ, we must be, before we can believe in Him !


You are delusional.

Your saved before you are saved is stupid and unbiblical.

beloved57
October 2nd, 2015, 11:36 AM
You are delusional.

Your saved before you are saved is stupid and unbiblical.

The Gospel is foolish to them that are perishing! Did you read the post?

Bright Raven
October 2nd, 2015, 11:46 AM
There is no union with Christ before believing in him. Post scripture!

Shasta
October 2nd, 2015, 12:14 PM
Before any man or woman can believe in or on Christ regarding Justification or Salvation, they must first be in Union with Him Spiritually, that is already abiding in Him, we know this by Christ's words here Jn 15:5

I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Jesus alludes to the same truth here Jn 6:56

56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

The eating and drinking here signifies believing or appropriating Christ by Faith, and Jesus said, the ones doing that, are dwelling or abiding in Him, and He is in them ! That denotes Pre Union !

In other words, their believing is the fruit of being in Him and Him being in them by Spiritual New Birth. We must first be a branch in the Vine before we can bear fruit, and Faith is one of the Fruits of the Spirit Gal 5:22 !

The Ground must first be made good before the Gospel message can take root and bring forth fruit Matt 13:23

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Notice the words here bringeth forth, meaning fruit and observe the same in Jn 15:5

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Without Christ, separate from we can do nothing, spiritually as to believe or rest in Him for all of Salvation !

So before believing, one must be already united to Christ, we must be, before we can believe in Him !

Jesus words in John 15 were addressed to his disciples, to those who already believed in Him and were following Him. Of these He says

“The one who has bathed does not need to wash, except for his feet, but is completely clean. ...” (John 13:10)

So, contrary to your claim, He was not talking to anyone who was not already believing in Him. These only are joined to Him. No one who does not YET believe has eternal life abiding in him. They will not UNTIL they believe (John 3:16).

"Without me you can do nothing" is not an expression of the false doctrine of inability. Rather it stresses the need for our dependence upon him. It is not saying that we sit passively by and wait for Him to compel us through a unilateral exercise of divine power. Just because we cannot be fruitful without Him does not mean we cannot be fruitful by yielding ourselves to Him.

"Abide" means to "remain and continue," (in Him). You cannot remain or continue in something you have not yet begun to be in. You cannot remain in a house you have never moved into in the first place. So this could not apply to anyone who has not already come into relationship with Christ through faith. Not even the elect have a relationship with Him before they have faith.

The verb "abide" is in the imperative mood which makes it a command. Commands demand the compliance of our wills. Implicit in a command is the possibility that the subject may opt to disobey or ignore the command. It is nonsensical to command a rock to remain where it is when it lacks the power of movement.

As for your other reference, a person has to partake of the Bread of Life in order to have life. No one has life BEFORE they partake. Likewise no one enjoys the benefits of His blood BEFORE he has entered into a covenant with Him.

You make people saved before they believe, cleansed before they are in covenant with Him, which contradicts the evangelical call for men to repent and believe in order to be saved.

Shasta
October 2nd, 2015, 12:18 PM
There is no union with Christ before believing in him. Post scripture!

It is as if he were trying to take the point of view of timelessness where past present and future are all one and a person is both saved and not saved at the same moment.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 2nd, 2015, 12:45 PM
The Gospel is foolish to them that are perishing! Did you read the post?

"One must brush their teeth, before they brush their teeth." I get ya now.

RBBI
October 2nd, 2015, 01:43 PM
They are His, and He obviously died for them too, but they have not received the adoption that sons receive; so no, they are not joined to Christ yet. The WHOLE garden is His, to do with as He pleases, in His time. Covenants require action on the part of BOTH parties, not just one. Otherwise it's faith without works. Peace

dialm
October 2nd, 2015, 02:20 PM
God only saves those people whom He wants to save. The rest are lost.

beloved57
October 2nd, 2015, 02:48 PM
They are His, and He obviously died for them too, but they have not received the adoption that sons receive; so no, they are not joined to Christ yet. The WHOLE garden is His, to do with as He pleases, in His time. Covenants require action on the part of BOTH parties, not just one. Otherwise it's faith without works. Peace

Post 35 did you read and understand it?

RBBI
October 2nd, 2015, 06:35 PM
Post 35 did you read and understand it?

Yes, I did read and understand it. And I agree with you, they are His, but they are asleep without Christ. Read Matt. 13 parable of the wheat and the tares again.

Can you hear this? There were two trees in the midst of the garden. One of them was the golden candlestick, one of them was the table of showbread. If the MIDST of the garden was for the priests only (holy place) but the outer court was for all, even the "God-fearers" strangers from Israel, THEN THE WHOLE GARDEN IS HIS.

Costing you something, isn't it? Blessings and Peace

beloved57
October 2nd, 2015, 07:03 PM
Yes, I did read and understand it. And I agree with you, they are His, but they are asleep without Christ. Read Matt. 13 parable of the wheat and the tares again.

Can you hear this? There were two trees in the midst of the garden. One of them was the golden candlestick, one of them was the table of showbread. If the MIDST of the garden was for the priests only (holy place) but the outer court was for all, even the "God-fearers" strangers from Israel, THEN THE WHOLE GARDEN IS HIS.

Costing you something, isn't it? Blessings and Peace

Please review the points in the post with me to see if you understand them!

Nanja
October 3rd, 2015, 07:46 AM
Are those Christ died for in Union with Him before they believe ? The answer to this very important question is absolutely YES, for there did and must have been a Union between Himself and them He died for, or their could not have been any just and legal grounds for Him to have died for their sins, no grounds for their sins to have been charged to His account, and such scriptures as these would be invalid and without legal warrant 1 Cor 15:3

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

This is without warrant if no previous Union existed !

1 Pet 2:24

24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

This is without warrant if no previous Union existed !

Isa 53:5

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

This is without warrant if no previous Union existed !

Now understand, this Union between them and Him had to be and was just as real and legally binding as it was for them in Adam, since if they were not really legally in Adam when he sinned, then they could not have sinned with him as it is surely indicated in Rom 5:12

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

All men sinned in and by Adams One sin, death passed upon all men because of Adams sinned,

or better yet they could not have been made sinners by Adams one act of disobedience as indicated here Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

This could not have justly occurred apart from a legal union recognized by the Jude of all the earth, God !

Paul writes that all die IN ADAM 1 Cor 15:22

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

The word in here is a prep that means:

en (a preposition) – properly, in (inside, within); (figuratively) "in the realm (sphere) of," as in the condition (state) in which something operates from the inside (within).

This denotes a Union in Adam, in that Union all died with Adam !

But in antithesis all in Christ shall be made alive, So all in Christ legally shall be made alive; Now we have already showed that in order for Christ to have died for our sins 1 Cor 15:3, He had to be in a Legal binding Union with Us, as it was likewise with us in Adam, and such Union constituted us as being In Christ, as no less as being in Adam, and because of being in Christ legally for Him to die for us, there can never be from God legally any condemnation charged to us, Rom 8:1

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Those of Us Christ died for, sin cannot and will not be charged or imputed to us Rom 4:8

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. Not to impute sin is not to impute condemnation as well !

So, if there was no Union with Christ before Faith, Christ's death could not have been for us, and faith in Christ would be in vain or to no avail with God !



Amen, there must be an Eternal Union in Christ before Faith!


All that were chosen in Union with Christ, the Federal Head of His Church,
before the foundation of the world Eph. 1:4, are the same all
who were originally in Adam their natural federal head;
that died in Adam when he sinned.

1 Cor 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.


So only the Church, who were originally chosen in union with Christ,
were in union with Adam their Federal Head.


It was only after Adam sinned that all the rest of humanity,
those that the devil sowed into the world Mat. 13:38-39,
the condemned world 1 Cor. 11:32, the reprobates, were added to his posterity.

~~~~~

beloved57
October 3rd, 2015, 07:51 AM
Amen, there must be an Eternal Union in Christ before Faith!


All that were chosen in Union with Christ, the Federal Head of His Church,
before the foundation of the world Eph. 1:4, are the same all
who were originally in Adam their natural federal head;
that died in Adam when he sinned.

1 Cor 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.


So only the Church, who were originally chosen in union with Christ,
were in union with Adam their Federal Head.


It was only after Adam sinned that all the rest of humanity,
those that the devil sowed into the world Mat. 13:38-39,
the condemned world 1 Cor. 11:32, the reprobates, were added to his posterity.

~~~~~
Amen, you have understood correctly, that is the Lords doing, for it's Him that gives us Understanding!

Nanja
October 3rd, 2015, 08:05 AM
Amen, you have understood correctly, that is the Lords doing, for it's Him that gives us Understanding!


Praise and Glory to our Eternal Father, for He has given us His Spirit 1 John 2:27! ☺

~~~~~

RBBI
October 3rd, 2015, 08:50 AM
What you're seeing is the FIRSTFRUITS, that were joined unto Him as the Alpha, returning as the Omega. But it's every man in his own order after that. Saviors arise on Mt. Zion because there are still those that need to be saved. The Lord always works with a firstfruits any time He is getting ready to make a change.

The tares are not men, but the seeds of darkness planted in all men, while Adam slept. The world (earthen vessels) is where the good seed (Christ) is planted. Know ye not ye are the temple of the living God?

HaShem put him to sleep, but you cannot find where He woke him up, until you read, Arise and shine (shake off the dust) and Christ will give thee light....Peace

musterion
October 3rd, 2015, 08:59 AM
If someone can be in eternal union with Christ before believing the Gospel, then many "lost" are actually saved. That makes B57 wrong when he says many of us here on TOL are lost because he can't know that...it could be that Christ just hasn't fully opened our eyes and converted us to Calvinism yet.

So next time B57 says, "You don't believe that!" just say, "Maybe God will make me, so stop judging."

patrick jane
October 3rd, 2015, 09:07 AM
God only saves those people whom He wants to save. The rest are lost.

God is upset with you for saying that -

God's Truth
October 3rd, 2015, 10:50 AM
God only saves those people whom He wants to save. The rest are lost.

That is right.

God saves only those He wants to save. See John 5:21.

God saves those whom He is pleased to save.

Who pleases God?

Those who please God are those who fear Him and do what is right. See Acts 10:35.

musterion
October 3rd, 2015, 11:17 AM
God only saves those people whom He wants to save. The rest are lost.


That is right.

Denying God's grace to others only denies it to yourselves. Repent.

God's Truth
October 3rd, 2015, 11:19 AM
Denying God's grace to others only denies it to yourselves. Repent.

What? Did you say 'Repent'?

Yes! Amen!

Now you have stumbled on the truth!

Repent to be saved!

musterion
October 3rd, 2015, 11:36 AM
When have I ever said otherwise? I've always believed in repentance because that's what Paul preached (Acts 17:30-31; 26:20).

Our disagreement is on what repent means, how one does it, and why.

God's Truth
October 3rd, 2015, 11:45 AM
When have I ever said otherwise? I've always believed in repentance because that's what Paul preached (Acts 17:30-31; 26:20).

Our disagreement is on what repent means, how one does it, and why.

Repent does NOT just mean to believe!

Repent means to be sorry for your sins and stop doing them!

musterion
October 3rd, 2015, 11:47 AM
Repent does NOT just mean to believe!

Repent means to be sorry for your sins and stop doing them!

No. Convicted sinners who see the Cross for what it is SHOULD be sorry for sin and will be (hence the conviction) but that is not what the word means.

God's Truth
October 3rd, 2015, 11:49 AM
No. Convicted sinners SHOULD be sorry for sin and probably will be (hence the conviction) but that is not what the word means.

Repent is a command from Jesus from the right hand of God in heaven. I have also proven the it is Jesus' command to the whole world:

Revelation 9:20 The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood--idols that cannot see or hear or walk.

Revelation 9:21 Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.


Revelation 16:10 The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness. People gnawed their tongues in agony

Revelation 16:11 and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, but they refused to repent of what they had done.


Why don't you read those scriptures and believe them, and stop preaching that repent is not of sins, and that Jesus never tells us all to repent of our sins?

Revelation 2:5 Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.

Did you read that scripture? That is what will happen if SAVED people do not repent of their SINS.

beloved57
October 3rd, 2015, 12:02 PM
Repent is a command from Jesus from the right hand of God in heaven. I have also proven the it is Jesus' command to the whole world:

Revelation 9:20 The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood--idols that cannot see or hear or walk.

Revelation 9:21 Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.


Revelation 16:10 The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness. People gnawed their tongues in agony

Revelation 16:11 and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, but they refused to repent of what they had done.


Why don't you read those scriptures and believe them, and stop preaching that repent is not of sins, and that Jesus never tells us all to repent of our sins?

Revelation 2:5 Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.

Did you read that scripture? That is what will happen if SAVED people do not repent of their SINS.

Do you understand what this thread is about?

God's Truth
October 3rd, 2015, 12:12 PM
Do you understand what this thread is about?

We can believe in Jesus before we obey, and we can believe in Jesus after we obey. Jesus tells us that, see John 7:17.

However, we will NOT BE SAVED UNTIL AFTER WE OBEY!

See also Proverbs 3:5-6, John 14:21, and

musterion
October 3rd, 2015, 12:26 PM
Repent is a command from Jesus from the right hand of God in heaven. I have also proven the it is Jesus' command to the whole world:

Revelation 9:20 The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood--idols that cannot see or hear or walk.

Revelation 9:21 Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.


Revelation 16:10 The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness. People gnawed their tongues in agony

Revelation 16:11 and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, but they refused to repent of what they had done.


Why don't you read those scriptures and believe them, and stop preaching that repent is not of sins, and that Jesus never tells us all to repent of our sins?

Revelation 2:5 Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.

Did you read that scripture? That is what will happen if SAVED people do not repent of their SINS.

1. Revelation is describing the coming days after this dispensation of grace has ended.

2. The word means what it means, not what you claim it means.

Now hush up.

beloved57
October 3rd, 2015, 12:28 PM
We can believe in Jesus before we obey, and we can believe in Jesus after we obey. Jesus tells us that, see John 7:17.

However, we will NOT BE SAVED UNTIL AFTER WE OBEY!

See also Proverbs 3:5-6, John 14:21, and

What point did I make in this thread?

Shasta
October 3rd, 2015, 02:40 PM
If you are going to undertake the project of imposing a thread containing an error of this magnitude then you should be willing to provide answers to objections. For instance, on John 15 I made the following comments summarized here:


Jesus words in John 15 were addressed to his disciples, to those who already believed in Him and were following Him. Of these He says

“The one who has bathed does not need to wash, except for his feet, but is completely clean. ...” (John 13:10)

So, contrary to your claim, Jesus was not talking to anyone who was not already believing in Him. These only are joined to Him. No one who does not YET believe has eternal life abiding in him. They will not UNTIL they believe (John 3:16).

"Without me you can do nothing" is not an expression of the false doctrine of inability. Rather, it stresses the need for our dependence upon him. The verse is not saying that we sit passively by and wait for Him to compel us to do things through a unilateral exercise of divine power. Because we cannot be fruitful without Him does not mean we cannot be fruitful by yielding ourselves to Him. In fact, that is exactly what we are supposed to do.

"Abide" means to "remain and continue," (in Him). You cannot remain or continue in anything you have yet to move into. You cannot remain, continue in a house you do not already reside in. So this could not apply to anyone who has not already come into relationship with Christ through faith. Not even the elect have a relationship with Him before they have faith.

The verb "abide" is in the imperative mood which makes it a command. Commands demand the obedience of our wills. Implicit in a command is the possibility that the subject may opt to disobey. It is nonsensical to command a rock to remain where it is when it lacks the power of movement.

As for your other references

A. a person has to partake of the Bread of Life in order to have life. No one has the life BEFORE they partake of it (in time and space).

B. Likewise, no one enjoys the benefits of His blood BEFORE they have entered into a blood covenant with Him.

C. No one has a "well springing up to eternal life" within him before they have actually "drunk of the water of life freely."

You make people saved before they believe, cleansed before they are in covenant with Him, which contradicts the evangelical call for men to repent and believe in order to be saved.

Now do you understand what I am saying here?

Shasta
October 3rd, 2015, 02:46 PM
1. Revelation is describing the coming days after this dispensation of grace has ended.

2. The word means what it means, not what you claim it means.

Now hush up.

In a dispensation, in other words, where salvation through faith in the work of Christ is no longer possible, when the cross is no longer "the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believes." If the power of the cross has an expiration date then no man could ever be saved. Yet many shall be saved in the last times.

God's Truth
October 3rd, 2015, 02:57 PM
1. Revelation is describing the coming days after this dispensation of grace has ended.

When Jesus comes again at the end of the world it will be too late.

When Jesus comes again, it will be too late, because Jesus is not coming to BEAR SIN.

We have access to GRACE WHEN WE BELIEVE THAT JESUS' BLOOD CLEANS US FROM THE SINS WE REPENT OF DOING.

When Jesus comes again, it will be too late.


Hebrews 9:28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.

1 Thessalonians 5:4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

Revelation 3:3 Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

Luke 21:34
"Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap.

Revelation 16:15
"Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed."

Shasta
October 3rd, 2015, 03:44 PM
Believers are the Sons of God even before they believe in Christ, in the same sense that they are the Sheep of Christ before they become believers ! Remember what Jesus said about those Sheep that would hear His voice in the future here [B]Jn 10:16

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Christ knew that others WOULD hear Him calling and that they would follow Him. However, none of them could be part of His flock until this happened.

Those that are led of the Spirit are the sons of God (Romans 8:14)

When we were part of the world we were not following after Jesus nor were we a part of His flock. Speaking about this PAST state Paul says:

…2 in which you (believers)formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest (Ephesians 2:2-3)

Previous to their conversion the Ephesians did not follow the Shepherd. They followed the Prince and Power of the Air (the devil). They were not "led of the Spirit" but were led by the "lusts of the flesh and mind." Yet you say they were already in the Lord's flock. Whom shall we believe - you or what the Word plainly says?


They were already His Sheep before they heard and believed, because remember Faith cometh by hearing, and when one believes they become the manifested Sheep of Christ or Sons of God Jn 1:12 !

Hearing and believing was what made them into sheep. When you say that was when they became "manifested sheep" it sounds like they really were sheep but not visibly According the the scripture I cited (Ephesians 2:2-3) they were not children of God by nature at all but children of wrath. If you are under grace you cannot be under wrath at the same time.

Children of wrath are those who reject the son.

"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him (John 3:36).

Until we believe/obey the Son we remain children of wrath.


A Couple of more examples, the Lost Sheep was still a Sheep of Christ, even while being Lost Lk 15:1-7, and likewise the Lost Son was still a Son while being Lost, thats why the Father said Lk 15:24

24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

That means the Lost Son was already in a Legal Union Relationship while dead and lost spiritually !


Declaring that his son was dead was a complete repudiation of all relationship to him. It was also a termination of all his legal rights as a son. It is the same when someone in modern Judaism declares their son "dead." Sometimes they actually have funerals for the "dead" son. You cannot be any more cut off than when you are treated as if you no longer live.

It was only when the prodigal repented that was he was declared no longer to be dead. You missed the whole point of the story. The Prodigal was legally and relationally dead and lost until he was restored.


So again believers are sons of God before they become believers and that is why they shall become believers, because they must be confirmed into the image of Christ, their Firstborn Brother Rom 8:29 ! We know this also by Heb 2:17

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Christ in His humiliation/incarnation was made like unto His brethren, and this is brethren in the spiritual sense. Remember these brethren are also earlier called sons Heb 2:10 !

Now were all whom were His brethren believers when He first was born of the virgin mary ? The answer is no, the brethren of Heb 2:17 are the same brethren in Rom 8:29, and because He is the Son of God, His brethren are sons also, they are just unmanifested sons until regeneration, and because they are redeemed sons, the Spirit [and His fruit] are given them to manifest them as such Gal 4:6

You need not read predestination into Hebrews when it was not the subject. It is more straight forward to read it to mean that at first He "came to His brethren the Jews."

No one was born again spiritually speaking until after the work of the cross was completed and Jesus was raised. Only then the hearts of those who believed could be cleansed and they could be born again by the Holy Spirit. No one was born again until then.


6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

By them also being Sons, they had to be redeemed Gal 4:4-5

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them[Sons] that were under the law, that we[Sons] might receive the adoption of sons.

They receive the Spirit so that they also now begin doing the Will of their Father like their elder Brother Christ does Mk 3:35

33 And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren?

34 And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

The Spirit is sent into the hearts of men after they are born again. Then when He declares they are sons it is the truth. Those Paul is addressing in Romans were believers not unbelievers so these scriptures do nothing to prove your main point which is that "the elect" are saved before they believe.

Nanja
October 4th, 2015, 03:55 PM
Scripture is clear that the Lord Jesus Christ is the author [causer] of our Faith and the Finisher Heb 12:2

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

That word author is the greek word archēgos and means:


the chief leader, prince

a) of Christ

2) one that takes the lead in any thing and thus affords an example, a predecessor in a matter, pioneer

3) the author

Now this word is made up of Two greek words one is archē and means:


beginning, origin

2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader

3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause

4) the extremity of a thing

a) of the corners of a sail

5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy

a) of angels and demons

Now Jesus Christ is the First active cause of our Faith. Now understand, the writer is not only speaking of believers under the New Covenant, but also of all the believers under the Old Covenant as outlined in Chapter 11 of Hebrews. Yes, He was the Author of their Faith even though He had not yet became incarnate, Yet He was still their Mediator and Surety before His Incarnation and so was the Author and Finisher of their Faith, the Captain of their Salvation !

But I said all that to bring up this, in order for Christ to be the Author of our Faith and to communicate it to us, there had to be a Union with Him prior to, as the branch must be united to the root before it can bring forth fruit Jn 15:4-5

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.



Excellent illustration!

Also, the only way any of us had a Union with Christ, was by being chosen by God in Christ
before the foundation of the world Eph. 1:4-5.

Yet there are many who falsely teach that one can place himself in Christ by his own choosing;
doing works of the flesh, e.g. believing, repenting, calling upon Him, etc.
But they are only deceiving themselves!

For all the Workings of God in His Choosing and Predestinating those who would inherit Eternal Life in Christ
was completed in it's entirety before the world even began 2 Tim. 1:9. It's immutable!

~~~~~

beloved57
October 4th, 2015, 04:01 PM
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Excellent illustration!

Also, the only way any of us had a Union with Christ, was by being chosen by God in Christ
before the foundation of the world Eph. 1:4-5.

Yet there are many who falsely teach that one can place himself in Christ by his own choosing;
doing works of the flesh, e.g. believing, repenting, calling upon Him, etc.
But they are only deceiving themselves!

For all the Workings of God in His Choosing and Predestinating those who would inherit Eternal Life in Christ
was completed in it's entirety before the world even began 2 Tim. 1:9. It's immutable!

~~~~~

Amen!

Shasta
October 4th, 2015, 10:16 PM
[/COLOR]
[/YELLOW]


Excellent illustration!

Also, the only way any of us had a Union with Christ, was by being chosen by God in Christ
before the foundation of the world Eph. 1:4-5.

Yet there are many who falsely teach that one can place himself in Christ by his own choosing;
doing works of the flesh, e.g. believing, repenting, calling upon Him, etc.
But they are only deceiving themselves!

For all the Workings of God in His Choosing and Predestinating those who would inherit Eternal Life in Christ
was completed in it's entirety before the world even began 2 Tim. 1:9. It's immutable!

~~~~~

Believing is a work of the flesh? The Bible disagrees with you:

Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent (John 6:29)”

You say our believing is a "work of the flesh." Jesus said it is the work of God. Who are we to believe? Not only that but nobody would ever repent unless the Holy Spirit had drawn and convicted him first of their sins.

God's Truth
October 4th, 2015, 11:14 PM
Believing is a work of the flesh? The Bible disagrees with you:

Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent (John 6:29)”

You say our believing is a "work of the flesh." Jesus said it is the work of God. Who are we to believe? Not only that but nobody would ever repent unless the Holy Spirit had drawn and convicted him first of their sins.

We have to do the believing, not God.

The men asked what must WE DO for the works God requires, THEN JESUS TOLD THEM.

God's Truth
October 4th, 2015, 11:23 PM
People need to stop being afraid of the word work.

You will not be saved unless you become a servant to God, and then you will be His friend.

Isaiah 41:8 "But you, O Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, you descendants of Abraham my friend,

Nanja
October 5th, 2015, 04:06 AM
Believing is a work of the flesh? The Bible disagrees with you:

Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent (John 6:29)”

You say our believing is a "work of the flesh." Jesus said it is the work of God. Who are we to believe? Not only that but nobody would ever repent unless the Holy Spirit had drawn and convicted him first of their sins.


A person's own act of believing to get himself saved is merely a work of the flesh and therefore cannot please God.

Rom. 8:7-8
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Belief / faith is a fruit of the Spirit Gal. 5:22. So to believe on Christ is the work of God the Holy Spirit in one who has been given New Birth.

~~~~~

beloved57
October 5th, 2015, 04:48 AM
nanja



A person's own act of believing to get himself saved is merely a work of the flesh and therefore cannot please God.



Yes, and its teaching Salvation by works, by what a person does. The definition of a work is found in the greek word used for work, ergon and it means:

any product whatever, anything accomplished by hand, art, industry, mind

The act of believing is accomplished by the mind,

also the word means :

an act, deed, thing done

Again, to believe is an act, a deed done, a thing done by man !

and once again its defined as:


érgon ("work") is a deed (action) that carries out (completes) an inner desire (intension, purpose).

Which equates to the will of a man. So all who teach that they are saved from sin after they believe, they are in essence saying they are saved by their work, and its boasting !

beloved57
October 5th, 2015, 04:49 AM
nanja



Belief / faith is a fruit of the Spirit Gal. 5:22 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Gal.%205.22). So to believe on Christ is the work of God the Holy Spirit in one who has been given New Birth.



Absolutely !

Nanja
October 5th, 2015, 05:00 AM
nanja



Yes, and its teaching Salvation by works, by what a person does. The definition of a work is found in the greek word used for work, ergon and it means:

any product whatever, anything accomplished by hand, art, industry, mind

The act of believing is accomplished by the mind,

also the word means :

an act, deed, thing done

Again, to believe is an act, a deed done, a thing done by man !

and once again its defined as:


érgon ("work") is a deed (action) that carries out (completes) an inner desire (intension, purpose).

Which equates to the will of a man. So all who teach that they are saved from sin after they believe, they are in essence saying they are saved by their work, and its boasting !


Exactly!

~~~~~

beloved57
October 5th, 2015, 05:16 AM
Now many would be quick to answer, it was given them after they believed, but that is an error, it was given in Promise in Christ before the world began ! Eternal Life is only and has always been only in the Son of God, which is Christ 1 Jn 5:11,13

11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

And this Eternal life of theirs, was always with the Father, in Christ for them 1 Jn 1:1-2

That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us)

Its the same Life John wrote of in his Gospel Jn 1:1-4

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

So it [Eternal Life] was Promised them in Him before the world began, so Paul wrote to Titus this Titus 1:1-2

Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Now pay close attention to Vs 2, accordingly when did God Promise Eternal Life " The answer:

"promised before the world began"

Now this same exact phrase " before the world began" is also found here 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

When Paul declares that Purpose and Grace was given us in Christ Jesus [The Son 1 Jn 5:11] before the world began, and herein lies the giving of Eternal Life by Promise !

RBBI
October 5th, 2015, 06:06 AM
Well, I don't know what anybody else did, but I told Him I didn't care if I lived or died, to take my life, and He heard THAT prayer, and He DID.

What I feel happened was, the next day, I AWOKE, WITH HIM, IN ME. Peace

beloved57
October 5th, 2015, 06:11 AM
Well, I don't know what anybody else did, but I told Him I didn't care if I lived or died, to take my life, and He heard THAT prayer, and He DID.

What I feel happened was, the next day, I AWOKE, WITH HIM, IN ME. Peace

Has nothing to do with points made in post and thread !

RBBI
October 5th, 2015, 06:17 AM
Actually it does, if you looked at the way I worded it, closely. Peace

beloved57
October 5th, 2015, 07:54 AM
You see, when God promised to give Abraham and Seed the inheritance Gal 3:18, its just as good as done, thats why its in the past tense

18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

In the greek, the word gave is in the perfect tense, so the promising to give the Inheritance and giving it are the same to God, for His Counsel is Immutable Heb 6:13-18

13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,

14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.

15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.

16 For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife.

17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise[Abraham and his Seed] the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:

18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

That Hope is the Hope of Eternal Inheritance or Eternal Life

Its the Eternal Inheritance which is that Eternal Life Heb 9:15

And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Thats also the Everlasting Canaan Gen 17:8

8 And I will give[God promising] unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

So the Inheritance belongs to Abraham and his seed [in all generations] by virtue of Gods Promise, so Eternal life belonged to the believer by virtue of Gods promise before the world began ! And corresponding with Pauls Titus 1:1-2 Eternal Life Promised, is John again in his Epistle 1 Jn 2:25

25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

And this Promise was given them in the Son, their Union with Him before the World began 1 Jn 5:11

11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

Shasta
October 5th, 2015, 11:10 AM
We have to do the believing, not God.

The men asked what must WE DO for the works God requires, THEN JESUS TOLD THEM.

They wanted to know how they could do the (miraculous) works of God. Instead of saying what they could do Jesus told them the issue was about allowing the work of God to be done in them. This work was faith. Faith means to "trust in, rely upon, belief in" Him. You cannot get faith by trying to make yourself believe as a mental effort.
Faith is more than us trying to believe, it is about God "working in his to will (to give us the desire) and to do (to actually perform) of His good pleasure."

The prayer of faith that brings the kind of works they wanted to do had to be produced in them by God though they also had to listen and then to lay hold of the answer when it was revealed to them (even before it happened).

Faith comes by hearing the word of God. This means not only what the Bible says about saving truth but also the specific answers to prayer that God speaks to us. We are always to pray but in my experience I have faith for miraculous answers only when I hear from God.

Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner (John 5:19)

When we see what God is doing or intends to do in a situation we can have faith and see prayer answered in reality. Remember, they were asking particularly how to do the miraculous works Jesus was doing. Jesus told them here that He did what he saw the Father doing.

It is incorrect to say that we can have faith apart from the Holy Spirit. He bears witness of the truth in us. Don't let the Calvinists view of irresistible grace drive you into Pelagianism. There is a ditch on both sides of the road. To every error there is an equal and opposite error and both sides of a point of view tend to become polarized in the process of debate.

beloved57
October 5th, 2015, 12:09 PM
Now again, those who have by Promise Eternal Life given them by Promise, to them it is given to know they have it and to believe on the Son they had it in 1 Jn 5:11-13

11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

See, the Heirs of Promise have Eternal Life before they know about it ! Notice Vs 13 the scripture is written so that they may know [experimentally] that they have Eternal Life, and that they may believe on the name of the Son of God; Now if you notice believing follows knowing, the believe not to get eternal life, but because they already had it by Promise as the Seed of Abraham; and so its written here Acts 13:48

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Because they had it Promised them , that made them [B]ordained to it !

Bright Raven
October 5th, 2015, 12:54 PM
John 3:3 New King James Version (NKJV)

3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

John 3:5-8 New King James Version (NKJV)

5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’
8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

God's Truth
October 5th, 2015, 02:35 PM
They wanted to know how they could do the (miraculous) works of God.
Don’t add to the scripture.


Instead of saying what they could do Jesus told them the issue was about allowing the work of God to be done in them.
I have already shown you with scripture that THEY WERE ASKING FOR WHAT THEY ARE TO DO AND JESUS TOLD THEM.


This work was faith. Faith means to "trust in, rely upon, belief in" Him. You cannot get faith by trying to make yourself believe as a mental effort. Faith is more than us trying to believe, it is about God "working in his to will (to give us the desire) and to do (to actually perform) of His good pleasure."
Where does our faith come from? Our faith comes from HEARING the word, see Romans 10:17. From hearing the word and being TAUGHT, Colossians 1:5, 7. From continuing in what we have been CONVINCED of, see 2 Timothy 3:14, and being PERSUADED, 2 Corinthians 5:11.


The prayer of faith that brings the kind of works they wanted to do had to be produced in them by God though they also had to listen and then to lay hold of the answer when it was revealed to them (even before it happened).
What?


Faith comes by hearing the word of God. This means not only what the Bible says about saving truth but also the specific answers to prayer that God speaks to us. We are always to pray but in my experience I have faith for miraculous answers only when I hear from God.
God listens to those who obey. God does not listen to unrepentant sinners.




Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner (John 5:19)

When we see what God is doing or intends to do in a situation we can have faith and see prayer answered in reality. Remember, they were asking particularly how to do the miraculous works Jesus was doing. Jesus told them here that He did what he saw the Father doing.
What in the world are you talking about?



It is incorrect to say that we can have faith apart from the Holy Spirit. He bears witness of the truth in us. Don't let the Calvinists view of irresistible grace drive you into Pelagianism. There is a ditch on both sides of the road. To every error there is an equal and opposite error and both sides of a point of view tend to become polarized in the process of debate.
You are like a Calvinist if you keep saying things such as that.
We do not get faith supernaturally, as many teach, but we get faith in a very human way, from reading the supernatural message!

beloved57
October 6th, 2015, 06:56 AM
This ordaining to Eternal Life as Per Acts 13:48 has to do with is prearrangement in the Eternal Counsels of God, also it having been Promised to them from before the foundation Titus 1:1-2

Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

The word promise is compatible with the word ordained in Acts 13:48 which denotes an arrangement , mutual agreement.

For what is an promise but a pledge of some sort,
a formal or solemn promise or agreement,

the act of agreeing or of coming to a mutual arrangement.

an arrangement that is accepted by all parties to a transaction.

All of which that Points to the Everlasting Covenent before the world began, or Gods Eternal Counsel or Purpose Eph 3:11

According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

It was in the Eternal Purpose in Christ Jesus when Christ was made a Surety for His People, the People of the Covenant, chosen in Him Heb 7:22

22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. See also Heb 13:20

Isa 42:6

6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

And they from this receive eternal life experimentally, which had been promised them in Christ before the world began, and to them it was appointed, ordained they should believe on the Son 1 Jn 5:13

13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Nanja
October 6th, 2015, 08:05 AM
Now again, those who have by Promise Eternal Life given them by Promise, to them it is given to know they have it and to believe on the Son they had it in 1 Jn 5:11-13

11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

See, the Heirs of Promise have Eternal Life before they know about it ! Notice Vs 13 the scripture is written so that they may know [experimentally] that they have Eternal Life, and that they may believe on the name of the Son of God; Now if you notice believing follows knowing, they believe not to get eternal life, but because they already had it by Promise as the Seed of Abraham; and so its written here Acts 13:48

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Because they had it Promised them , that made them [B]ordained to it !


Excellent 3-part study!

These who were In Union with Christ, Abraham's Seed, before the world began
are the same who shall become Born Again, come to know of their Heirship,
and be given to Believe, which is a fruit of the Spirit Gal. 5:22.

These Chosen Heirs of Promise, are sealed with the Spirit of Promise Eph. 1:13
which ensures their perseverance to the end Eph. 4:30. And because they are Sons of God,
He sends the Spirit of His Son into their hearts.

Gal. 3:14
That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ;
that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Gal. 4:6
And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

~~~~~


Okay, onto part 4 ☺

beloved57
October 6th, 2015, 08:21 AM
Excellent 3-part study!

These who were In Union with Christ, Abraham's Seed, before the world began
are the same who shall become Born Again, come to know of their Heirship,
and be given to Believe, which is a fruit of the Spirit Gal. 5:22.

These Chosen Heirs of Promise, are sealed with the Spirit of Promise Eph. 1:13
which ensures their perseverance to the end Eph. 4:30. And because they are Sons of God,
He sends the Spirit of His Son into their hearts.

Gal. 3:14
That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ;
that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Gal. 4:6
And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

~~~~~


Okay, onto part 4 ☺

Amen!

Shasta
October 6th, 2015, 10:42 AM
nanja



Yes, and its teaching Salvation by works, by what a person does. The definition of a work is found in the greek word used for work, ergon and it means:

any product whatever, anything accomplished by hand, art, industry, mind

The act of believing is accomplished by the mind,

also the word means :

an act, deed, thing done

Again, to believe is an act, a deed done, a thing done by man !

and once again its defined as:


érgon ("work") is a deed (action) that carries out (completes) an inner desire (intension, purpose).

Which equates to the will of a man. So all who teach that they are saved from sin after they believe, they are in essence saying they are saved by their work, and its boasting !

I do not see anyone in Paul's time claiming that their faith in God was a "work of righteousness" that EARNED them salvation. The kinds of "works" Paul condemns are "meritorious" works (i.e., attempts to garner the favor of God through self-effort) Jesus pointed some of these practices out when he observed how the Pharisees would give to the poor, fast and say long prayers. Having been a Pharisee himself Paul was well acquainted with these attempts to curry favor with God. Given the context of his life experience, this is what Paul meant by "works."

Faith and THIS kind of "works" are contrasted in the NT

4 Now to the one whoworks, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work (i.e.,try to become righteous by his own efforts) but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, (Romans 4:5)

The Bible never suggests that faith is a "good deed" or a "(meritorious) work of righteousness."

5 He saved us, NOT on the basis of a (good) deed which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

Doing meritorious works means you are not trusting God but that you are trusting in yourSELF. Faith is the opposite of "doing a righteous work" to earn salvation. It is letting go of all attempts at being better and surrendering your life to the only one who can save you from yourself.

Exercising faith does not in any way earn salvation but it IS a necessary condition for receiving it. It is true we would never come to Him unless the Spirit convicts us of sin and draws us it is equally true that we still have the choice of submitting to His call and believing in Him or of rejecting Him.

However, faith is voluntary. To believe is to submit to the call of the Holy Spirit which is to believe in Him which makes Him our savior and Lord.

In the scriptures, faith and obedience are inseparable. Paul said the goal of his ministry was "to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations,"
(Romans 1:5)

Jesus too equated faith with obedience when He said this:

"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not OBEY the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him" (John 3:36)

Obedience, submitting ones life to the call of the Gospel, is not a legalistic work but neither is it involuntary.

Shasta
October 6th, 2015, 12:37 PM
A person's own act of believing to get himself saved is merely a work of the flesh and therefore cannot please God.

Rom. 8:7-8
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Belief / faith is a fruit of the Spirit Gal. 5:22. So to believe on Christ is the work of God the Holy Spirit in one who has been given New Birth.

~~~~~

First of all where does the Bible say that a person putting their faith in Jesus is a work of the flesh? No one would ever do that unless the Spirit had influenced them. In what scripture do you anchor this concept.

Let us look at how God speaks to men about getting right with Him.

18“Come now, let us reason together, says the Lord:
though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red like crimson,
they shall become like wool.
(Isaiah 1:18)

It looks like the Lord is inviting them to use their minds in order to make a rational decision that is in their best interest. As soon as He begins to speak of their sin he is addressing their moral conscience. Finally he says that an exercise of their will is necessary.

19 If you are willing and obedient,
you shall eat the good of the land;
20but if you refuse and rebel,
you shall be eaten by the sword;
for the mouth of the Lord has spoken.”
(Isaiah 1:18)

Being "willing and obedient" is saying "yes" to the will of God. Saying "no" is represented by the words "refuse" and "rebel" Notice that God is assuming they have a will and can make either decision.

Reason together

Had God been a Calvinist He would have known the "carnal mind" is incapable of thinking anything but corrupt thoughts. Since this is obviously not borne out here I suggest that you have not precisely defined what the "carnal mind" is.

If you be willing and obedient

Evidently Isaiah was still under the pre-Calvinistic " thinking that man can make choices. Had he been able to study Reformed Theology at Geneva he would have understood that whether men submit to the Word or reject it is solely up to God who determines their choices by either exerting or withholding Divine grace

The whole tone of this passage is one of moral rational persuasion. God assumes that they can sit and reason together and that they can make a moral decisions. Viewing the passage as it stands without reading Calvinism into it (which would not be around for thousands of years) you get the idea that God thinks his people can think rationally and that they can be persuaded to choose to believe God and obey Him. Since the prophet was speaking by the Spirit we assume that the influence of God was there to help them repent and turn from their sins.

Calvinism holds that the reasoning together, the warnings, the promised rewards are not directly connected to any outcome. They are all just a "means" which God has arbitrarily chosen to work through. He might just as well have decreed that men be saved after a preacher had recited "twinkle twinkle little star."

beloved57
October 6th, 2015, 02:11 PM
shasta


First of all where does the Bible say that a person putting their faith in Jesus is a work of the flesh?

Where does it say its not ?

Its only common sense, If one isnt regenerated by the Spirit, and their Faith isnt the Fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22, then its of the flesh ! The only way it isnt of the flesh is if its the Fruit of the Spirit, common sense guided by scripture principles dictates that ! Jn 3:6

Nanja
October 6th, 2015, 02:38 PM
shasta



Where does it say its not ?

Its only common sense, If one isnt regenerated by the Spirit, and their Faith isnt the Fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22, then its of the flesh ! The only way it isnt of the flesh is if its the Fruit of the Spirit, common sense guided by scripture principles dictates that ! Jn 3:6

Exactly!

~~~~~

beloved57
October 6th, 2015, 02:50 PM
Earlier in this subject I posted that God gave Abraham and his seed an Inheritance by Promise Gal 3:18

18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Note: This Inheritance is not the physical land of israel, even though he gave them that also by promise, but this promise inheritance is not connected with the Law, its not of the Law of moses !

So now what is this Promised Inheritance given to Abraham and His Seed ? The Inheritance is Eternal Life ! Its the Eternal Life and Inheritance for the Sheep of God, Abraham and His Seed Spiritual. Thats why Jesus says this to the Sheep on His Right hand Matt 25:34

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Its the same Kingdom Abraham is mentioned in here Matt 8:11

And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

Remember Abraham was looking for a Heavenly City Heb 11:16

But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

In fact, the word prepared here in Heb 11:16 is the very same word in the greek as Matt 25:34

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Remember Heb 11:16 is also speaking of an Inheritance, we know this from the preceding verse Heb 11:8

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

And again its Heavenly Heb 11:16 !

Remember this passage Gen 17:5-8, and see where God Promised to give Abraham and his seed all the Land of Canaan for an Everlasting Possession, thats Eternal Life in the Heavenly Kingdom Matt 8:11 its that Everlasting habitations of Lk 16:9

9 And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations.

Bright Raven
October 6th, 2015, 02:52 PM
Earlier in this subject I posted that God gave Abraham and his seed an Inheritance by Promise Gal 3:18

18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Note: This Inheritance is not the physical land of israel, even though he gave them that also by promise, but this promise inheritance is not connected with the Law, its not of the Law of moses !

So now what is this Promised Inheritance given to Abraham and His Seed ? The Inheritance is Eternal Life ! Its the Eternal Life and Inheritance for the Sheep of God, Abraham and His Seed Spiritual. Thats why Jesus says this to the Sheep on His Right hand Matt 25:34

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Its the same Kingdom Abraham is mentioned in here Matt 8:11

And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

Remember Abraham was looking for a Heavenly City Heb 11:16

But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

In fact, the word prepared here in Heb 11:16 is the very same word in the greek as Matt 25:34

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Remember Heb 11:16 is also speaking of an Inheritance, we know this from the preceding verse Heb 11:8

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

And again its Heavenly Heb 11:16 !

Remember this passage Gen 17:5-8, and see where God Promised to give Abraham and his seed all the Land of Canaan for an Everlasting Possession, thats Eternal Life in the Heavenly Kingdom Matt 8:11 its that Everlasting habitations of Lk 16:9

9 And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations.
Keep posting, Nanja will read it.

Nanja
October 6th, 2015, 03:16 PM
Keep posting, Nanja will read it.


Yep, I'll be getting to parts 4 and 5 tomorrow, the Lord willing 1 Thes. 4:16-17! :rapture:

~~~~~

Bright Raven
October 6th, 2015, 03:22 PM
Yep, I'll be getting to parts 4 and 5 tomorrow, the Lord willing 1 Thes. 4:16-17! :rapture:

~~~~~

It'll take you down to the pit.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 6th, 2015, 03:54 PM
Yep, I'll be getting to parts 4 and 5 tomorrow, the Lord willing 1 Thes. 4:16-17! :rapture:

~~~~~

And, you get the "extra added" neg-reps to go with them. How about that?

Grosnick Marowbe
October 6th, 2015, 03:59 PM
B57 and Nanja, "The Un-dynamic Duo" of Un-brilliant "hyper-Calvinistic fanatics." Aren't we lucky?
Instead of taking "The Grace Route," you two geniuses have decided to go down the road to perdition.

Grosnick Marowbe
October 6th, 2015, 04:04 PM
Yep, I'll be getting to parts 4 and 5 tomorrow, the Lord willing 1 Thes. 4:16-17! :rapture:

~~~~~

Part 5 includes, "The Road map to destruction." Read that one twice.

OliviaM
October 6th, 2015, 04:15 PM
Before any man or woman can believe in or on Christ regarding Justification or Salvation, they must first be in Union with Him Spiritually, that is already abiding in Him, we know this by Christ's words here Jn 15:5

I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Jesus alludes to the same truth here Jn 6:56

56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

The eating and drinking here signifies believing or appropriating Christ by Faith, and Jesus said, the ones doing that, are dwelling or abiding in Him, and He is in them ! That denotes Pre Union !

In other words, their believing is the fruit of being in Him and Him being in them by Spiritual New Birth. We must first be a branch in the Vine before we can bear fruit, and Faith is one of the Fruits of the Spirit Gal 5:22 !

The Ground must first be made good before the Gospel message can take root and bring forth fruit Matt 13:23

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Notice the words here bringeth forth, meaning fruit and observe the same in Jn 15:5

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Without Christ, separate from we can do nothing, spiritually as to believe or rest in Him for all of Salvation !

So before believing, one must be already united to Christ, we must be, before we can believe in Him !

What does this mean being united before belief?

Are you saying God has only a select chosen people who be chosen to be saved and the rest perish?

If that is what you are saying then no. There is no unity before belief as that makes God not a nice God.

beloved57
October 6th, 2015, 04:20 PM
What does this mean being united before belief?

Are you saying God has only a select chosen people who be chosen to be saved and the rest perish?

If that is what you are saying then no. There is no unity before belief as that makes God not a nice God.
Read the thread, I have explained what i mean!

God's Truth
October 6th, 2015, 06:50 PM
There is no such thing as being saved before you believe.

There is no such thing anywhere in the Bible.

That belief is a made up doctrine.

Robert Pate
October 6th, 2015, 08:47 PM
Before any man or woman can believe in or on Christ regarding Justification or Salvation, they must first be in Union with Him Spiritually, that is already abiding in Him, we know this by Christ's words here Jn 15:5

I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Jesus alludes to the same truth here Jn 6:56

56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

The eating and drinking here signifies believing or appropriating Christ by Faith, and Jesus said, the ones doing that, are dwelling or abiding in Him, and He is in them ! That denotes Pre Union !

In other words, their believing is the fruit of being in Him and Him being in them by Spiritual New Birth. We must first be a branch in the Vine before we can bear fruit, and Faith is one of the Fruits of the Spirit Gal 5:22 !

The Ground must first be made good before the Gospel message can take root and bring forth fruit Matt 13:23

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Notice the words here bringeth forth, meaning fruit and observe the same in Jn 15:5

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Without Christ, separate from we can do nothing, spiritually as to believe or rest in Him for all of Salvation !

So before believing, one must be already united to Christ, we must be, before we can believe in Him !


This is the biggest heresy on the Forum.

I am surprised that Knight doesn't delete it.

Shasta
October 6th, 2015, 09:08 PM
[God's Truth;4476789]Don’t add to the scripture.

I have already shown you with scripture that THEY WERE ASKING FOR WHAT THEY ARE TO DO AND JESUS TOLD THEM.

That tey were not inquiring about how to be saved is evident from the context.

26Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you are seeking me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate your fill of the loaves. 27 Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal.” 28 Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” 29Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” 30 So they said to him, “Then what sign do you do, that we may see and believe you? What work do you perform? 31 Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’”

They wanted to know how they could do miraculous works like Jesus did when He multiplied the loaves and fish. The subject of doing miracles continued when they brought up the subject of manna.


Where does our faith come from? Our faith comes from HEARING the word, see Romans 10:17. From hearing the word and being TAUGHT, Colossians 1:5, 7. From continuing in what we have been CONVINCED of, see 2 Timothy 3:14, and being PERSUADED, 2 Corinthians 5:11.


Jesus said faith is the work of God. The result of God working in us is faith, which does not mean His work is irresistible only that is the most crucial thing He accomplished in the human heart.

Throughout this post you have emphasized human will and thought to the neglect of the operation of the Holy Spirit

1. Jesus said No one decides to seek God on their own apart from the influence of the Spirit (John 6:44).

2. The Spirit convicts the world of sin, (John 16:8).

3. He bears witness to the truth in our conscience (Rom. 9:1).

4. He enables us to obey the truth (1 Pet. 1:22).

5. You speak of the power of the scriptures but they are called the Sword of the SPIRIT It is the Holy Spirit Who makes the Word living, sharp and powerful.

6. The Spirit, using the word, glorifies and testifies of Christ (John 15:26; 16:14).

7. The word alone is not enough to bring people to repentance and salvation. In fact, the letter of the word devoid of the Spirit kills (2 Corinthians 3:6). This is why so many theologians who studied the word intensely ended up persecuting and even executing those who disagreed with them.


What? nm


God listens to those who obey. God does not listen to unrepentant sinners.


I never said God listens to unrepentant sinners but He reaches out to unrepentant sinners to convince them of their sin


What in the world are you talking about?

You are like a Calvinist if you keep saying things such as that.
We do not get faith supernaturally, as many teach, but we get faith in a very human way, from reading the supernatural message!

Since the Spirit IS involved in convicting us of sin, revealing the truth of Christ and making the Word real to us there IS a supernatural element to our having faith in Christ.
Furthermore the Bible says our faith comes from God.

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; (Ephesians 2:8)

At the same time we have the choice of whether we believe in Him or reject His influence. This view - that both man and God play a part in a person getting saved is called synergism. This is not Calvinism which holds that only God is responsible for a person being saved (monergism). Your position sounds much like another view, Pelagianism, which holds that man can come to Christ, have faith to be saved and walk in perfect obedience without the assistance of the Holy Spirit.

beloved57
October 6th, 2015, 10:30 PM
This is the biggest heresy on the Forum.

I am surprised that Knight doesn't delete it.
You always call the Gospel Truth heresy!

beloved57
October 6th, 2015, 10:33 PM
There is no such thing as being saved before you believe.

There is no such thing anywhere in the Bible.

That belief is a made up doctrine.
The Gospel is hid to them that are lost! 2Cor4:3 ! You have to be saved before it is not hidden from you and then it is believed!

beloved57
October 7th, 2015, 01:56 AM
That word Possession in Gen 17:8

5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.

7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

It has to do with Possession by right of Inheritance, for example Numbers 27:7

7 The daughters of Zelophehad speak right: thou shalt surely give them a possession of an inheritance among their father's brethren; and thou shalt cause the inheritance of their father to pass unto them.

Num 32:32

32 We will pass over armed before the Lord into the land of Canaan, that the possession of our inheritance on this side Jordan may be our's.

Num 35:2

2 Command the children of Israel, that they give unto the Levites of the inheritance of their possession cities to dwell in; and ye shall give also unto the Levites suburbs for the cities round about them.

Ezk 46:16

16 Thus saith the Lord God; If the prince give a gift unto any of his sons, the inheritance thereof shall be his sons'; it shall be their possession by inheritance.

And this Promise Inheritance was given to Abraham and his seed Gal 3:18 ; Gen 17:8

Now this Inheritance is Eternal Life, and so its through and in Christ, for remember what John wrote 1 Jn 5:11

11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life/or Inheritance, and this life is in his Son

The Eternal Life/Inheritance is by and through Christ, the Spiritual Seed of Abraham Gal 3:16

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

This Promise to Abraham and his Seed in Gen 17:8

And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

Its confirmed in Christ, and so those who belong to Christ are Abrahams Seed and Heirs Gal 3:29

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise

See, in order for Isaac and Jacob to be Heirs with Abraham Heb 11:8-9

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

They had to belong to Christ, because remember the Inheritance , which is the Everlasting Possession of Canaan Gen 17:8, its Everlasting Life, only in the Son 1 Jn 5:11 !

beloved57
October 7th, 2015, 04:49 AM
Now who is this Seed of Abrahams that shall with Abraham receive their inheritance of the everlasting canaan Gen 17:5-8


5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.

7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.


The Seed is not ethnic jews, though some of them shall be included along with people from every nation, notice again Vs 5:

5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

The word nations is inclusive of the Gentiles, so Gentiles are his Seed also, no not physically, but by their Joint Union with him in his Seed Christ Gal 3:16

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

The Promise of Gen 17:7-8 is first and foremost to Christ, Abrahams Seed, and it is to others, whether jew or gentile through belonging to Christ Gal 3:16,29 !

All the promises of God to the Fathers are via Christ to the Glory of God 2 Cor 1:20

20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Christ fulfills the Promises made to the Fathers of the Faith Rom 15:8

Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

Fathers here are not speaking about natural Fathers, but Fathers in the Faith, like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob Heirs of the same Promises with Abraham Heb 11:8-9

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

Gentile Believers are Abrahams Sons and Daughters from all Nations, hence that is why it is written that God will gather the Seed from everywhere like here Isa 43:4-6

Since thou wast precious in my sight, thou hast been honourable, and I have loved thee: therefore will I give men for thee, and people for thy life.

5 Fear not: for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west;

6 I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth;

Thats why Jesus said that in the Eternal Kingdom this Matt 8:10-11


10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

The Many here reperesents Abrahams Seed from the Nations Gen 17:5

5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

The centurions comment in Matt 8:9 is what caused Jesus to say what He did in Vs 10-11, hence forecasting the Faith of the Gentiles from the nations who were Abraham's Children/Seed, for he[the centurion ] was a Gentile !

Luke writes it adding the north and the south, wheras Matt just wrote east and the west Lk 13:28-29

28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out

And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.

This fulfills Isa 43:5-6 !

All these are the Heirs of Promise, Joint Heirs with Jesus Christ, and they all had Eternal Life by Heirship Promise, due to their Election in Christ, Abraham's Seed, before the foundation Eph 1:4 and so by Promise and Purpose they had Eternal Life before they became believers !

God's Truth
October 7th, 2015, 06:49 AM
That tey were not inquiring about how to be saved is evident from the context.

26Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you are seeking me, not because you saw signs, but because you ateyour fill of the loaves. 27 Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal.” 28 Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” 29Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” 30 So they said to him, “Then what sign do you do, that we may see and believe you? What work do you perform? 31 Our fathers ate themanna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’”

They wanted to know how they could do miraculous works like Jesus did when He multiplied the loaves and fish. The subject of doing miracles continued when they brought up the subject of manna.
Jesus said they are seeking him NOT because they saw signs, but because they ATE THEIR FILL OF THE LOAVES.


Jesus said faith is the work of God. The result of God working in us is faith, which does not mean His work is irresistible only that is the most crucial thing He accomplished in the human heart.

Throughout this post you have emphasized human will and thought to the neglect of the operation of the Holy Spirit
The Holy Spirit does not make us believe supernaturally.


1. Jesus said No one decides to seek God on their own apart from the influence of the Spirit (John 6:44).
That scripture is about when God HARDENED the Jews who did NOT have FAITH BEFORE JESUS CAME.

That

2. The Spirit convicts the world of sin, (John 16:8).
The Spirit convicts the world of sin does not mean the Holy Spirit supernaturally makes us have faith.



3. He bears witness to the truth in our conscience (Rom. 9:1).

4. He enables us to obey the truth (1 Pet. 1:22).
Be more careful what you say the scripture is saying. The scripture does not say that at all.



5. You speak of the power of the scriptures but they are called the Sword of the SPIRIT It is the Holy Spirit Who makes the Word living, sharp and powerful.
Since I speak of the power of the scriptures, why then do you think you have proven me wrong?



6. The Spirit, using the word, glorifies and testifies of Christ (John 15:26; 16:14).

7. The word alone is not enough to bring people to repentance and salvation. In fact, the letter of the word devoid of the Spirit kills (2 Corinthians 3:6).
You repeat what false teachers say. You just contradicted yourself. Read what you wrote right here, and then what you just wrote before about the written word.
Paul is NOT saying that his letters are devoid of the Spirit and KILLS.
Paul is speaking about the old law that said to put people to death for their sins.


This is why so many theologians who studied the word intensely ended up persecuting and even executing those who disagreed with them.
What? That is not true. They put people to death because they were false teachers without understanding.



ThatSince the Spirit IS involved in convicting us of sin, revealing the truth of Christ and making the Word real to us there IS asupernatural element to our having faith in Christ.
Furthermore the Bible says our faith comes from God.

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; (Ephesians 2:8)

That scripture is about OUR NOT HAVING TO CLEAN OURSELVES, just to be able to go to the temple, where God’s Spirit was, and worship Him.

Faith in Jesus’ blood now cleans us.





At the same time we have the choice of whether we believe in Him or reject His influence. This view - that both man and God play a part in a person getting saved is called synergism. This is not Calvinism which holds that only God is responsible for a person being saved (monergism). Your position sounds much like another view, Pelagianism, which holds that man can come to Christ, have faith to be saved and walk in perfect obedience without the assistance of the Holy Spirit.
You sound too worldly, trying to give me some man’s name to say I follow.

Anyone can come to God, if they can seek Him, they are to seek Him, and they will find Him.

God's Truth
October 7th, 2015, 07:00 AM
The Gospel is hid to them that are lost! 2Cor4:3 ! You have to be saved before it is not hidden from you and then it is believed!

The Gospel is hid to them but they can turn to Christ and be saved.

2 Corinthians 3:16 but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.…

Did you read that?

Whenever A PERSON TURNS TO THE LORD, the veil is taken away.

There is no scripture that says what you claim, and that is that Jesus saves us first and then we believe.

WE have to TURN TO JESUS.

Does that scripture say, "but whenever Jesus turns someone to him"?

No, it does not say that. It says that NOWHERE.

beloved57
October 7th, 2015, 07:30 AM
The Gospel is hid to them but they can turn to Christ and be saved.

2 Corinthians 3:16 but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.…

Did you read that?

Whenever A PERSON TURNS TO THE LORD, the veil is taken away.

There is no scripture that says what you claim, and that is that Jesus saves us first and then we believe.

WE have to TURN TO JESUS.

Does that scripture say, "but whenever Jesus turns someone to him"?

No, it does not say that. It says that NOWHERE.

Sorry, Paul plainly says that the Gospel is hid to them that are lost, so they believe not 2Cor4:3-4!

God's Truth
October 7th, 2015, 10:52 AM
Sorry, Paul plainly says that the Gospel is hid to them that are lost, so they believe not 2Cor4:3-4!

It is hid to those who do not want to believe, BECAUSE they do not believe. It is not that they cannot believe until Jesus first saves them. There is no such teaching from God. In fact, that teaching goes against the Word of God.

If they obey Jesus and humble themselves, then they could have a chance.

Jesus tells us how to be saved.

Jesus says humble yourselves.

PEOPLE CAN HUMBLE THEMSELVES, I know this because JESUS SAYS SO.

Jesus does NOT SAY TO ANYONE that they can believe if he makes them believe.

You believe in something and someone that is not there.

God's Truth
October 7th, 2015, 10:56 AM
Think about it harder.

Our hearts have to be prepared for Jesus to live there.

God wants US TO HUMBLE OURSELVES.

He tells us how and why.

If it is as the Calvinists say, then show the scripture. There is no scripture anywhere that says Jesus is telling people how to be saved, yet secretly knows they cannot until he saves them!

Shasta
October 7th, 2015, 12:05 PM
shasta



[QUOTE]Where does it say its not ?

No doctrine can be established on the basis that "nothing was said contrary to it." Doctrines must be established by positive exegetically-sound evidence in scripture. Can you imagine a prosecutor making a case to a jury based on making inferences and on the proposition that "nothing in the evidence says it is NOT so? The case would be thrown out of court.

The most important way to find out what the scripture is saying is to let scripture interpret scripture. For instance, if you want to differentiate true faith from false then you should use James. He said that the difference was that those who only believed mentally was that they exhibited no life changes. John said much the same thing in his letter. James and John agree that the active participation of the will is involved in the exercise of true faith. What you are saying is entirely different - that the voluntary submission of the will to the Spirit of God [/YELLOW]is not only unnecessary BUT that it is a mark of a false faith built upon dead works.


Its only common sense, If one isnt regenerated by the Spirit, and their Faith isnt the Fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22, then its of the flesh ! The only way it isnt of the flesh is if its the Fruit of the Spirit, common sense guided by scripture principles dictates that ! Jn 3:6

So. to be clear, what you are saying is that we cannot have faith until we have the fruit of faith. Well, faith does not start out as a fruit. When we first receive the seed of the Gospel by faith our faith is as small as a mustard seed. After the new life germinates it grows, eventually producing fruit in our character. 2 Peter 1:5 speaks of the growth of the traits of Christ in our character starting out with faith.

The fruit of faith is the product of time, growth and maturity of that initial faith. So when the Bible speaks about the fruit of faith it is not referring to our initial STEP of faith whereby we were saved. Rather, the fruit grows as we continue to walk in FAITH.

Saying that it is "common sense" tells me that you arrived at this idea through reasoning. Well enough, I have nothing against reasoning, but the first responsibility of a "workman" is to rightly divide what the text says regardless of what our presuppositions are. When Paul used the term he was referring to religious good "deeds". Having been a Pharisee this was something he knew a lot about.

That being said, I will grant that if anyone sees their mere belief as meritorious then that kind of "faith" is probably false. It would be in the same category as the "dead faith" that James talked about. Mentally assenting to a set of propositions about Christ does not save anyone any more than reciting the Apostles Creed. You need not deduce this. It can be found in the writings of James and John.

YOUR idea - that any kind of "faith" that involves voluntary choice and surrender is the same as "good works" is false and unBiblical. Faith is a verb (pisteuo) as well as a noun (pistis). To say that someone "believed" and was saved means that they "exercised faith" which necessarily implies an exercise of their will.

Faith means to "believe in, trust in, rely upon, have confidence in." This automatically contradicts the attitude of self-sufficiency and pride that goes along with "good works." To trust in Christ people must become needy, often to the point of desperation.

PureX
October 7th, 2015, 12:11 PM
I know I'm coming in late, here, but it seems to me that our "union with Christ" and our "belief in Christ" are basically the same things; and so occur at the same time.

To "believe in Christ" is to believe that God's love and forgiveness acting in us and through us, to others, will heal us and save us from ourselves, and help to heal and save them as well. And that our "union with Christ" is our doing exactly that. So I don't see how we can really do one without the other.

It's similar to that age old and ever foolish question about "faith vs. works", as if they were opposites of each other, when in fact they are part-and-parcel of each other. Faith is believing in the doing and works is doing what we believe. And neither one of them mean or accomplish anything without the other.

beloved57
October 7th, 2015, 12:19 PM
[QUOTE=beloved57;4477857]shasta





No doctrine can be established on the basis that "nothing was said contrary to it." Doctrines must be established by positive exegetically-sound evidence in scripture. Can you imagine a prosecutor making a case to a jury based on making inferences and on the proposition that "nothing in the evidence says it is NOT so? The case would be thrown out of court.

The most important way to find out what the scripture is saying is to let scripture interpret scripture. For instance, if you want to differentiate true faith from false then you should use James. He said that the difference was that those who only believed mentally was that they exhibited no life changes. John said much the same thing in his letter. James and John agree that the active participation of the will is involved in the exercise of true faith. What you are saying is entirely different - that the voluntary submission of the will to the Spirit of God [/YELLOW]is not only unnecessary BUT that it is a mark of a false faith built upon dead works.



So. to be clear, what you are saying is that we cannot have faith until we have the fruit of faith. Well, faith does not start out as a fruit. When we first receive the seed of the Gospel by faith our faith is as small as a mustard seed. After the new life germinates it grows, eventually producing fruit in our character. 2 Peter 1:5 speaks of the growth of the traits of Christ in our character starting out with faith.

The fruit of faith is the product of time, growth and maturity of that initial faith. So when the Bible speaks about the fruit of faith it is not referring to our initial STEP of faith whereby we were saved. Rather, the fruit grows as we continue to walk in FAITH.

Saying that it is "common sense" tells me that you arrived at this idea through reasoning. Well enough, I have nothing against reasoning, but the first responsibility of a "workman" is to rightly divide what the text says regardless of what our presuppositions are. When Paul used the term he was referring to religious good "deeds". Having been a Pharisee this was something he knew a lot about.

That being said, I will grant that if anyone sees their mere belief as meritorious then that kind of "faith" is probably false. It would be in the same category as the "dead faith" that James talked about. Mentally assenting to a set of propositions about Christ does not save anyone any more than reciting the Apostles Creed. You need not deduce this. It can be found in the writings of James and John.

YOUR idea - that any kind of "faith" that involves voluntary choice and surrender is the same as "good works" is false and unBiblical. Faith is a verb (pisteuo) as well as a noun (pistis). To say that someone "believed" and was saved means that they "exercised faith" which necessarily implies an exercise of their will.

Faith means to "believe in, trust in, rely upon, have confidence in." This automatically contradicts the attitude of self-sufficiency and pride that goes along with "good works." To trust in Christ people must become needy, often to the point of desperation.

Did you read and understand the OP ?

beloved57
October 7th, 2015, 12:21 PM
purex


I know I'm coming in late, here, but it seems to me that our "union with Christ" and our "belief in Christ" are basically the same things; and so occur at the same time.


As I explained, without a Union with Christ when He died for us, then God had no legal basis or ground to charge Him with our sins, so there had to be a Union with Christ before He could legally die for us and we can believe on Him !

PureX
October 7th, 2015, 12:55 PM
purex

As I explained, without a Union with Christ when He died for us, then God had no legal basis or ground to charge Him with our sins, so there had to be a Union with Christ before He could legally die for us and we can believe on Him !What you are talking about, is to me, just religious gibberish and 'hocus-pocus'. As I understand it, Christ is a term that refers to an ideal, and to a promise. For that promise to manifest, I must live by the ideal. So for me, "belief in" the ideal and "acting on" it's promise are the same things.

I have no identification with, or interest in this magical religious stuff about holy sacrifices and divine legal debts being paid by Jesus' murder and all that other stuff that you and others choose to call Christianity. None of that stuff makes any sense to me, and it has no connection to real life that I am aware of. In the real world, we believe, we act on those beliefs, and they prove true or they don't.

The ideal of Christ proves true, when acted upon, and delivers on it's promise. That's as much as I need to know. Call it 'practical Christianity for dummies'.

beloved57
October 7th, 2015, 01:50 PM
What you are talking about, is to me, just religious gibberish and 'hocus-pocus'. As I understand it, Christ is a term that refers to an ideal, and to a promise. For that promise to manifest, I must live by the ideal. So for me, "belief in" the ideal and "acting on" it's promise are the same things.

I have no identification with, or interest in this magical religious stuff about holy sacrifices and divine legal debts being paid by Jesus' murder and all that other stuff that you and others choose to call Christianity. None of that stuff makes any sense to me, and it has no connection to real life that I am aware of. In the real world, we believe, we act on those beliefs, and they prove true or they don't.

The ideal of Christ proves true, when acted upon, and delivers on it's promise. That's as much as I need to know. Call it 'practical Christianity for dummies'.

If you or I didn't have a union with Christ when He died for sin, then He didn't die for our sins, He had no legal basis to!

PureX
October 7th, 2015, 02:14 PM
If you or I didn't have a union with Christ when He died for sin, then He didn't die for our sins, He had no legal basis to!I don't care about any of that, because it's just pointless 'religiosity', to me. I'm sorry, but I don't think your beliefs have any substance to them. I think their all ideology and emotionalism, but with little practical applicability. (But then all I see are words on a screen, so I could be mistaken.)

beloved57
October 7th, 2015, 02:16 PM
I don't care about any of that, because it's just pointless 'religiosity', to me. I'm sorry, but I don't think your beliefs have any substance to them. I think their all ideology and emotionalism, but with little practical applicability. (But then all I see are words on a screen, so I could be mistaken.)
The feeling is mutual! I don't care about what you talking about!

Shasta
October 7th, 2015, 03:23 PM
God's Truth;4478556]Jesus said they are seeking him NOT because they saw signs, but because they ATE THEIR FILL OF THE LOAVES.

Of course what they desired was a free buffet but what they wanted to KNOW was how to do the “works” of God...like Jesus had done (the miracle of the loaves)and Moses before Him (the manna). Now what kind of “works” were these? They were talking about how to perform miraculous works and,yes, ones that would meet their carnal needs.
Jesus turned their attention to a more important "work" the important work that needed to be done INSIDE them.

He said,

"This is the work of God, that you believe(have faith) in Him whom He has sent."

You are reacting so much to the view that faith is an involuntary work of God that you are not acknowledging the role the Spirit plays in getting us to believe. His role is convicting us of sin, bearing witness in us of the truth of the gospel and bearing witness to the person and message of Christ.


The Holy Spirit does not make us believe supernaturally.
I do not believe that the Spirit MAKES people believe.


That scripture is about when God HARDENED the Jews who did NOT have FAITH BEFORE JESUS CAME.

MANY people were coming to Jesus. Individual people were hardened but not the nation as a whole. That had not happened yet.

But where exactly does the Bible say “God HARDENED the Jews who did NOT have FAITH BEFORE JESUS CAME.”

Jesus was reaching out to and saving a lot of hardened sinners who had not had faith before He came. Secularized Jews like Matthew and Zachieus who were thieves and cheats could not be said to have faith before Jesus came; neither could many other non-practicing Jews. Among orthodox Jews some like Nicodemus believed while others did not. Every time Jesus called on a group of people to “believe” (i.e.,have faith”) in Him He was assuming that many or even most of those he was reaching out to did not yet believe in Him.


The Spirit convicts the world of sin does not mean the Holy Spirit supernaturally makes us have faith.

Again I do not believe the Holy Spirit MAKES anyone have faith. However inasmuch as He has a hand in leading us to faith you cannot say that the process is purely natural.


Be more careful what you say the scripture is saying. The scripture does not say that at all.

Okay I will make my point with these scriptures:

16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh (Galatians 5:16)

This does not say “if we try very hard NOT to fulfill the lusts of the flesh then we will walk in the Spirit.” Walking by the Spirit is the means whereby we are enabled not to sin.

In order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. (Romans 8:4)

We can only exhibit God’s righteous character by walking by the Spirit. We do not have the power to do it apart from dependence on Him.

For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. (Romans 8:13)

Gaining victory over the flesh requires our putting it to death voluntarily but we can only accomplish this through the Spirit.


Since I speak of the power of the scriptures, why then do you think you have proven me wrong?

Because you seem to be saying the scriptures can save without the Spirit just like you seem to say that we are able to obey perfectly without the assistance of the Holy Spirit.


You repeat what false teachers say. You just contradicted yourself. Read what you wrote right here, and then what you just wrote before about the written word.
Paul is NOT saying that his letters are devoid of the Spirit and KILLS.
Paul is speaking about the old law that said to put people to death for their sins.


To Paul the "scriptures" were not his own letters but the Old Testament writings. In the hands of men who were without the Holy Spirit those words did not give life. When Jesus read them they had power. It is the Holy Spirit that makes the word living.


What? That is not true. They put people to death because they were false teachers without understanding.

You think correct doctrine will prevents a person from falling into error or sin? I assure you does not. I have seen many fall, ministers included. You are extremely naive if you think it does not happen.


That scripture is about OUR NOT HAVING TO CLEAN OURSELVES, just to be able to go to the temple, where God’s Spirit was, and worship Him.

Faith in Jesus’ blood now cleans us.

This verse has nothing to do with the Temple which was not an important issue in this Church which consisted of Gentiles and a much smaller number of Hellenistic Jews (who did not put much stock in the temple anyway). What it does say is that “faith is the gift of God” You will have to come to terms with what that phrase means.


You sound too worldly, trying to give me some man’s name to say I follow.

So when someone says a word you do not know it means they are worldly? I was just giving you a few words that would help you understand the views of others around here, including me. If you would rather figure them out through conflicts, misunderstandings, statements and restatements then go ahead. The shorter way to learning is reading.


Anyone can come to God, if they can seek Him, they are to seek Him, and they will find Him.

I agree

Nanja
October 7th, 2015, 03:36 PM
The Gospel is hid to them but they can turn to Christ and be saved.

2 Corinthians 3:16 but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.…

Did you read that?

Whenever A PERSON TURNS TO THE LORD, the veil is taken away.

There is no scripture that says what you claim, and that is that Jesus saves us first and then we believe.

WE have to TURN TO JESUS.

Does that scripture say, "but whenever Jesus turns someone to him"?

No, it does not say that. It says that NOWHERE.


The natural man, of himself, does not possess the ability to turn himself to God Rom. 8:7-8.

Lam 5:21
Turn thou us unto thee, O LORD, and we shall be turned; renew our days as of old.

God does that by the death of His Son for all those He died for;
those who had a Union in Christ before the world began Eph. 1:4-11; 2 Tim. 1:9;
and the result is that "we shall be turned".

~~~~~

Shasta
October 7th, 2015, 03:42 PM
What does this mean being united before belief?

Are you saying God has only a select chosen people who be chosen to be saved and the rest perish?

If that is what you are saying then no. There is no unity before belief as that makes God not a nice God.

That is exactly what he is saying. He sees the chosen few as having been pre-selected before the foundation of the world. That is classic Calvinism.

However, he exceeds his teacher in the audacity of his error by making the elect pre-existant souls.

He also believes that the elect are pre-justified and that God never imputes sin to them not even those they commit before they become Christians. Thus they are:

saved before being saved,

redeemed while they are still not redeemed,

children of mercy while they are still children of wrath,

righteous while they are still dead in sin,

reconciled (put in right relationship) to God while they are still His enemies.

PureX
October 7th, 2015, 04:05 PM
That is exactly what he is saying. He sees the chosen few as having been pre-selected before the foundation of the world. That is classic Calvinism.

However, he exceeds his exceeds his teacher in the audacity of his error by making the elect pre-existant souls.

He also believes that the elect are pre-justified and that God never imputes sin to them not even those they commit before they become Christians. Thus they are:

saved before being saved,

redeemed while they are still not redeemed,

children of mercy while they are still children of wrath,

righteous while they are still dead in sin,

reconciled (put in right relationship) to God while they are still His enemies.Wow! Good post! :up:

meshak
October 7th, 2015, 07:13 PM
Call it 'practical Christianity for dummies'.

All Jesus' teachings are practical. But it is not practiced because it is not easy to follow them.

But we will be judged according to what we have done. Without following Jesus' teachings we will not inherit God's kingdom. This is Jesus' word.

So His followers ought to strive to follow all His teachings. If we don't, we will be judged harshly worse than non-believers.

beloved57
October 7th, 2015, 08:50 PM
The natural man, of himself, does not possess the ability to turn himself to God Rom. 8:7-8.

Lam 5:21
Turn thou us unto thee, O LORD, and we shall be turned; renew our days as of old.

God does that by the death of His Son for all those He died for;
those who had a Union in Christ before the world began Eph. 1:4-11; 2 Tim. 1:9;
and the result is that "we shall be turned".

~~~~~

And also you must believe to turn the the Lord Acts 11:21, but those lost can't believe the Gospel because it is hid from them 2 Cor 4:3-4

Shasta
October 7th, 2015, 09:34 PM
The natural man, of himself, does not possess the ability to turn himself to God Rom. 8:7-8.

Lam 5:21
Turn thou us unto thee, O LORD, and we shall be turned; renew our days as of old.

God does that by the death of His Son for all those He died for;
those who had a Union in Christ before the world began Eph. 1:4-11; 2 Tim. 1:9;
and the result is that "we shall be turned".

~~~~~

You are not taking into account the fact that the Spirit has come into the world to lead people to Jesus, to show them who He is, to persuade them to surrender their lives to Him and believe the gospel. So people blinded by carnality have not been left to their own devices.

Nanja
October 8th, 2015, 04:23 AM
And also you must believe to turn the the Lord Acts 11:21, but those lost can't believe the Gospel because it is hid from them 2 Cor 4:3-4



Yes, and only God's Chosen Sons will believe the Gospel according to His Will and Purpose in Christ from everlasting.

2 Thes. 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath
from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
v.13 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

~~~~~

beloved57
October 8th, 2015, 05:50 AM
You are not taking into account the fact that the Spirit has come into the world to lead people to Jesus, to show them who He is, to persuade them to surrender their lives to Him and believe the gospel. So people blinded by carnality have not been left to their own devices.

Those in the flesh can't please God Rom 8:8 !

beloved57
October 8th, 2015, 06:26 AM
Yes, and only God's Chosen Sons will believe the Gospel according to His Will and Purpose in Christ from everlasting.

2 Thes. 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath
from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
v.13 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

~~~~~
Exactly, the Spirit leads the Chosen of God unto belief of the Truth 2Thess 2:13 !

Nanja
October 8th, 2015, 07:34 AM
Exactly, the Spirit leads the Chosen of God unto belief of the Truth 2Thess 2:13 !

Amen, and the same are the all men God wills to become Saved 1 Tim. 2:4, they
will be led by the Spirit to the knowledge of the Truth John 16:13; John 17:17-19.

~~~~~

beloved57
October 8th, 2015, 09:13 AM
Amen, and the same are the all men God wills to become Saved 1 Tim. 2:4, they
will be led by the Spirit to the knowledge of the Truth John 16:13; John 17:17-19.

~~~~~
Exactly!

beloved57
October 8th, 2015, 09:28 AM
must


If someone can be in eternal union with Christ before believing the Gospel, then many "lost" are actually saved.

Thats True, but they are only Lost in the sense that they have yet to be born again, by nature they are enemies Rom 5:10 but they are still saved from the penalty of their sins !

See, You have to had been in Union with Christ in order for Him to be able to legally and Justly die for your sins, no sins could be charged to Him if He was not their legal Head in the Eyes of Gods Law and Justice ! That took a Union !

God's Truth
October 8th, 2015, 09:46 AM
The natural man, of himself, does not possess the ability to turn himself to God Rom. 8:7-8.

Read that scripture more carefully, because it is about people who care about only pleasing their flesh. We are not just flesh, we are spirit too. Some people care more about deeper things; not everyone is only interested in pleasing their flesh.

Hebrews 12:9, Zechariah 12:1, and Malachi 2:15.



Lam 5:21
Turn thou us unto thee, O LORD, and we shall be turned; renew our days as of old.

God does that by the death of His Son for all those He died for;
those who had a Union in Christ before the world began Eph. 1:4-11; 2 Tim. 1:9;
and the result is that "we shall be turned".

~~~~~

See, you even admit that God does not turn us in some supernatural way.

Those who care about the deeper things, from the spirit within them, those are the people who are drawn to God by the lovingkindness of Jesus and because of a better HOPE given us than that of the law; we hope in the perfection we receive through Jesus. See Hebrews 7:18, 19.

We are drawn by what we HEAR. God does not give us the Holy Spirit before we are saved.

beloved57
October 8th, 2015, 10:03 AM
gt


Read that scripture more carefully, because it is about people who care about only pleasing their flesh. We are not just flesh, we are spirit too. Some people care more about deeper things; not everyone is only interested in pleasing their flesh.

You can read it till you turn blue in the face, the fact will remain, those in the flesh cannot please God Rom 8:7 and cannot be submitted to Him or obey Him Rom 8:7 !

God's Truth
October 8th, 2015, 10:18 AM
Of course what they desired was a free buffet but what they wanted to KNOW was how to do the “works” of God...like Jesus had done (the miracle of the loaves)and Moses before Him (the manna). Now what kind of “works” were these? They were talking about how to perform miraculous works and,yes, ones that would meet their carnal needs.
Jesus turned their attention to a more important "work" the important work that needed to be done INSIDE them.
You keep trying to justify the adding you did earlier. It just is not there. First you said they wanted to do the miracles, but then I showed you that Jesus said they did not care about the miracles but only the food. Now you say they wanted to do the miracles to make more food!
Admit you were wrong.



He said,

"This is the work of God, that you believe(have faith) in Him whom He has sent."

You are reacting so much to the view that faith is an involuntary work of God that you are not acknowledging the role the Spirit plays in getting us to believe. His role is convicting us of sin, bearing witness in us of the truth of the gospel and bearing witness to the person and message of Christ.
What you say about me is nonsense. We have to hear the word. The Holy Spirit does not come into anyone’s heart until it is time to live there, AFTER they believe and obey Jesus.

I do not believe that the Spirit MAKES people believe.
Then check what you are saying. What you are saying is reminiscent of Luther and Calvin.


MANY people were coming to Jesus. Individual people were hardened but not the nation as a whole. That had not happened yet.
You are not careful enough about the truth. Tell me, where did I say a whole nation? It did not happen. God hardened JEWS who did not have faith in HIM BEFORE Jesus came to earth and started his ministry.



But where exactly does the Bible say “God HARDENED the Jews who did NOT have FAITH BEFORE JESUS CAME.”
Isaiah 6:10 Make the heart of this people calloused; make their ears dull and close their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed."

Matthew 13:14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: "'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.

God bound all to disobedience (except those who already belonged to Him by faith before Jesus came to earth). See Romans 11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.




Again I do not believe the Holy Spirit MAKES anyone have faith. However inasmuch as He has a hand in leading us to faith you cannot say that the process is purely natural.
Then why in the world are you going against me!



16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh (Galatians 5:16)

This does not say “if we try very hard NOT to fulfill the lusts of the flesh then we will walk in the Spirit.” Walking by the Spirit is the means whereby we are enabled not to sin.
You are badly mistaken. The Spirit does not FORCE US TO OBEY. That scripture is about those wanting to obey. Go read about Paul beating his body. Go read about running a race.




Because you seem to be saying the scriptures can save without the Spirit just like you seem to say that we are able to obey perfectly without the assistance of the Holy Spirit.
You do not listen very well. We do have to obey BEFORE WE HAVE THE HOLY SPIRIT. The Holy Spirit is given to those who believe and obey. However, the message is SPIRITUAL, and it is the written Word of God, and anyone can obey it if they want, and that is BEFORE UNDERSTANDING.


To Paul the "scriptures" were not his own letters but the Old Testament writings. In the hands of men who were without the Holy Spirit those words did not give life. When Jesus read them they had power. It is the Holy Spirit that makes the word living.
Paul knew he was writing scripture.
The New Testament teachings were by letter and books right from the beginning. In 1 Timothy 5:18 Paul joins a New Testament scripture (Luke 10:7) to an Old Testament scripture (Deuteronomy 25:4) and calls them both scripture. In addition, we can see in 2 Peter 3:15-16 Peter recognizes what Paul writes as scripture.


You think correct doctrine will prevents a person from falling into error or sin? I assure you does not. I have seen many fall, ministers included. You are extremely naive if you think it does not happen.
Of course, correct scripture matters, as does OBEYING THOSE SCRIPTURES.

This verse has nothing to do with the Temple which was not an important issue in this Church which consisted of Gentiles and a much smaller number of Hellenistic Jews (who did not put much stock in the temple anyway). What it does say is that “faith is the gift of God” You will have to come to terms with what that phrase means.
You are badly mistaken. Jesus is the Sacrificial Lamb of God.
You want to be a teacher but you have no understanding.
Faith is from God because that is how HE CLEANS US NOW. No one has to clean themselves anymore by preforming certain works, but we have to have faith that Jesus' blood cleans us. How else do you think we are reconciled to Him and become the TEMPLE?


So when someone says a word you do not know it means they are worldly? I was just giving you a few words that would help you understand the views of others around here, including me. If you would rather figure them out through conflicts, misunderstandings, statements and restatements then go ahead. The shorter way to learning is reading.
Admit what you did. You stopped talking about the scriptures and you started speaking of mere men, men not even mentioned in the Holy Bible. You are acting worldly.

God's Truth
October 8th, 2015, 10:24 AM
gt



You can read it till you turn blue in the face, the fact will remain, those in the flesh cannot please God Rom 8:7 and cannot be submitted to Him or obey Him Rom 8:7 !

Those who ONLY LIVE TO PLEASE THEIR FLESH cannot please God.

Read more carefully; with the measure you use it will be measured to you. See Mark 4:24.

beloved57
October 8th, 2015, 10:33 AM
Those who ONLY LIVE TO PLEASE THEIR FLESH cannot please God.

Read more carefully; with the measure you use it will be measured to you. See Mark 4:24.

Eveyone before they are Born anew are living in the flesh, and cannot please God !

God's Truth
October 8th, 2015, 10:40 AM
Eveyone before they are Born anew are living in the flesh, and cannot please God !

Not everyone ONLY LIVES TO PLEASE THEIR FLESH.

beloved57
October 8th, 2015, 10:42 AM
Not everyone ONLY LIVES TO PLEASE THEIR FLESH.

If you are not born again you have no choice!

God's Truth
October 8th, 2015, 10:44 AM
If you are not born again you have no choice!

NO ONE IS BORN AGAIN UNTIL THEY BELIEVE JESUS AND REPENT OF THEIR SINS.

Born again means a new life without sins!

How do we get a new life without sins?

We believe that Jesus' blood cleans us of the sins WE REPENT OF DOING.

beloved57
October 8th, 2015, 10:45 AM
NO ONE IS BORN AGAIN UNTIL THEY BELIEVE JESUS AND REPENT OF THEIR SINS.

Born again means a new life without sins!

How do we get a new life without sins?

We believe that Jesus' blood cleans us of the sins WE REPENT OF DOING.
Those in the flesh can't please God! Rom 8:8 !

Grosnick Marowbe
October 8th, 2015, 11:29 AM
Those in the flesh can't please God! Rom 8:8 !

You and Nanja are a majority of two. It must get lonely?

Nanja
October 8th, 2015, 03:28 PM
Now who is this Seed of Abrahams that shall with Abraham receive their inheritance of the everlasting canaan Gen 17:5-8



The Seed is not ethnic jews, though some of them shall be included along with people from every nation, notice again Vs 5:

5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

The word nations is inclusive of the Gentiles, so Gentiles are his Seed also, no not physically, but by their Joint Union with him in his Seed Christ Gal 3:16

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

The Promise of Gen 17:7-8 is first and foremost to Christ, Abrahams Seed, and it is to others, whether jew or gentile through belonging to Christ Gal 3:16,29 !

All the promises of God to the Fathers are via Christ to the Glory of God 2 Cor 1:20

20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Christ fulfills the Promises made to the Fathers of the Faith Rom 15:8

Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

Fathers here are not speaking about natural Fathers, but Fathers in the Faith, like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob Heirs of the same Promises with Abraham Heb 11:8-9

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

Gentile Believers are Abrahams Sons and Daughters from all Nations, hence that is why it is written that God will gather the Seed from everywhere like here Isa 43:4-6

Since thou wast precious in my sight, thou hast been honourable, and I have loved thee: therefore will I give men for thee, and people for thy life.

5 Fear not: for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west;

6 I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth;

Thats why Jesus said that in the Eternal Kingdom this Matt 8:10-11


10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

The Many here reperesents Abrahams Seed from the Nations Gen 17:5

5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

The centurions comment in Matt 8:9 is what caused Jesus to say what He did in Vs 10-11, hence forecasting the Faith of the Gentiles from the nations who were Abraham's Children/Seed, for he[the centurion ] was a Gentile !

Luke writes it adding the north and the south, wheras Matt just wrote east and the west Lk 13:28-29

28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out

And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.

This fulfills Isa 43:5-6 !

All these are the Heirs of Promise, Joint Heirs with Jesus Christ, and they all had Eternal Life by Heirship Promise, due to their Election in Christ, Abraham's Seed, before the foundation Eph 1:4 and so by Promise and Purpose they had Eternal Life before they became believers !


Much appreciated this very instructive and articulate 7-part study
"When did the believer first have Eternal Life?

The Lord continue to Bless you richly!

~~~~~

God's Truth
October 8th, 2015, 03:32 PM
Those in the flesh can't please God! Rom 8:8 !

Not everyone is only interested in pleasing only their flesh.

Bright Raven
October 8th, 2015, 03:36 PM
Those in the flesh can't please God! Rom 8:8 !

Guess you can't please God! :ha:

beloved57
October 8th, 2015, 03:38 PM
Not everyone is only interested in pleasing only their flesh.

Yes they are if they have not been born again!

God's Truth
October 8th, 2015, 03:40 PM
Yes they are if they have not been born again!

That is not true. Those who do not only care about the flesh will hear the message that saves and believe and obey.

beloved57
October 8th, 2015, 04:47 PM
That is not true. Those who do not only care about the flesh will hear the message that saves and believe and obey.

Sure it is True!

beloved57
October 8th, 2015, 04:52 PM
Much appreciated this very instructive and articulate 7-part study
"When did the believer first have Eternal Life?

The Lord continue to Bless you richly!

~~~~~

May He continue to Bless you and Establish you in the Truth!

Nanja
October 8th, 2015, 05:02 PM
May He continue to Bless you and Establish you in the Truth!

Amen, I receive it!

Thank You, My Brother!

~~~~~

beloved57
October 8th, 2015, 06:33 PM
Amen, I receive it!

Thank You, My Brother!

~~~~~
Praise Him [emoji1]

God's Truth
October 8th, 2015, 09:13 PM
Sure it is True!

God searches our hearts proves you wrong.

beloved57
October 8th, 2015, 10:48 PM
God searches our hearts proves you wrong.

Those in the flesh cannot please God Rom 8:8 thats Gods Word !

God's Truth
October 8th, 2015, 11:27 PM
Those in the flesh cannot please God Rom 8:8 thats Gods Word !

Those who only want to please their flesh cannot please God.

beloved57
October 9th, 2015, 02:43 AM
Those who only want to please their flesh cannot please God.

Every one is in the flesh by nature and can't please God, that includes you and me Rom 8:8 !

God's Truth
October 9th, 2015, 05:28 AM
Every one is in the flesh by nature and can't please God, that includes you and me Rom 8:8 !

Romans 8:7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.


Everyone does NOT have a mind governed by the flesh.

We are flesh AND spirit.

Some people want more in this life than pleasing the flesh.

beloved57
October 9th, 2015, 07:01 AM
Romans 8:7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.


Everyone does NOT have a mind governed by the flesh.

We are flesh AND spirit.

Some people want more in this life than pleasing the flesh.

Everyone by nature are governed by the flesh in their minds Eph 2:2-3

Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

You are not exempt !

God's Truth
October 9th, 2015, 05:44 PM
Everyone by nature are governed by the flesh in their minds Eph 2:2-3

Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

You are not exempt !

Not everyone only lives to please the flesh. You are being irresponsible with the word of God.

beloved57
October 9th, 2015, 06:20 PM
Not everyone only lives to please the flesh. You are being irresponsible with the word of God.
Yes everyone does!

God's Truth
October 9th, 2015, 07:20 PM
Yes everyone does!

No, not everyone only wants to please there flesh.

Read the Bible past the scriptures the Calvinists use in error.

beloved57
October 9th, 2015, 08:24 PM
No, not everyone only wants to please there flesh.

Read the Bible past the scriptures the Calvinists use in error.

Yes they do, they can't help it!

God's Truth
October 10th, 2015, 08:30 AM
Yes they do, they can't help it!

I can easily prove you wrong.

Not everyone only wants to please their flesh.

I know for myself I wanted something more than this life has to offer.

Look to what the Bible says.

The Bible says there are righteous people.

You look only to the scriptures that speak of those who did wrong.

Not everyone is like a leopard who cannot change their spots.

Not everyone is only accustomed to doing evil.

beloved57
October 10th, 2015, 09:24 AM
I can easily prove you wrong.

Not everyone only wants to please their flesh.

I know for myself I wanted something more than this life has to offer.

Look to what the Bible says.

The Bible says there are righteous people.

You look only to the scriptures that speak of those who did wrong.

Not everyone is like a leopard who cannot change their spots.

Not everyone is only accustomed to doing evil.

You can not prove the scriptures wrong! This is all men by nature in the flesh Eph 2:2-3!

God's Truth
October 10th, 2015, 09:54 AM
You can not prove the scriptures wrong! This is all men by nature in the flesh Eph 2:2-3!

That scripture does not say all only desired to please their flesh.

It just is not there.

God wants you to dig deep inside your heart, where you spirit is.

God is the Father of our Spirits, and obeying Jesus gives life to our spirit. God wants to give life to the spirits we all have inside us. God also wants to live in our hearts with us, after we prepare our hearts for Him.

beloved57
October 10th, 2015, 10:28 AM
That scripture does not say all only desired to please their flesh.

It just is not there.

God wants you to dig deep inside your heart, where you spirit is.

God is the Father of our Spirits, and obeying Jesus gives life to our spirit. God wants to give life to the spirits we all have inside us. God also wants to live in our hearts with us, after we prepare our hearts for Him.

That's one's condition by nature, in the flesh! That includes you and in the flesh man can't please God Rom 8:8!

God's Truth
October 10th, 2015, 10:39 AM
That's one's condition by nature, in the flesh! That includes you and in the flesh man can't please God Rom 8:8!

Do you need to be shown the many scriptures about righteous people before the Holy Spirit was given to all believers?

WonderfulLordJesus
October 10th, 2015, 11:01 AM
Do you need to be shown the many scriptures about righteous people before the Holy Spirit was given to all believers?

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Romans 3

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

serpentdove
October 10th, 2015, 11:01 AM
Before any man or woman can believe in or on Christ regarding Justification or Salvation, they must first be in Union with Him Spiritually, that is already abiding in Him, we know this by Christ's words here Jn 15:5...

We know that you are not http://vananne.com/serpentdove/emoticones_gestos_cruzando-los-dedos2_en.PlanetaEmoticon.com.gif united with him because you do not believe in the Jesus of scripture (Jn 1:1-3).

See:

Jehovah's False Witnesses (http://vananne.com/culttoasters/#Jehovahs_Witnesses)

As a reminder Beloved57 is number 19 on Satan, Inc. (TOL Heretics list) (http://vananne.com/serpentdove/TOL%20Heretics%20List.htm) in the misc. category. :burnlib:

beloved57
October 10th, 2015, 11:32 AM
Do you need to be shown the many scriptures about righteous people before the Holy Spirit was given to all believers?

I don't believe you believe scripture or understand them! Man by nature in the flesh can't please God Rom 8:8 can't obey God Rom 8:7!

beloved57
October 10th, 2015, 11:48 AM
We know that you are not http://vananne.com/serpentdove/emoticones_gestos_cruzando-los-dedos2_en.PlanetaEmoticon.com.gif united with him because you do not believe in the Jesus of scripture (Jn 1:1-3).

See:

Jehovah's False Witnesses (http://vananne.com/culttoasters/#Jehovahs_Witnesses)

As a reminder Beloved57 is number 19 on Satan, Inc. (TOL Heretics list) (http://vananne.com/serpentdove/TOL%20Heretics%20List.htm) in the misc. category. :burnlib:

The same to you , you don't believe in the God and Christ of scripture!

God's Truth
October 11th, 2015, 12:50 AM
Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
I have no idea how you think that means there are no righteous people.
Do you really think your misunderstanding of that scripture nullifies all these scriptures:

Genesis 32:28 Then the man said, "Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome."

There were righteous people who obeyed God before Jesus came, and after Jesus.

Luke 1:6 Both of them were righteous in the sight of God, observing all the Lord's commands and decrees blamelessly.

Genesis 6:8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.

Genesis 7:1 The LORD then said to Noah, "Go into the ark, you and your whole family, because I have found you righteous in this generation.

Luke 2:25 Now there was a man in Jerusalem called Simeon, who was righteous and devout. He was waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was on him.

John 1:47 When Jesus saw Nathanael approaching, he said of him, "Here truly is an Israelite in whom there is no deceit."

Job 1:1, 8 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God...

1 Kings 9:4 And if you will walk before me, as David your father walked, in integrity of heart, and in uprightness...

1 Kings 15:5 For David had done what was right in the eyes of the LORD and had not failed to keep any of the LORD's commands all the days of his life--except in the case of Uriah the Hittite.

Genesis 17:1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to him and said, "I am God Almighty; walk before me faithfully and be blameless.

Genesis 26:4-5 I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and will give them all these lands, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because Abraham obeyed me and kept my requirements, my commands, my decrees and my laws."

Luke 1:30 But the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God.

Acts 22:12 "A man named Ananias came to see me. He was a devout observer of the law and highly respected by all the Jews living there.


Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: "He could not be found, because God had taken him away." For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.

Genesis 5:24 Enoch walked faithfully with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.

Luke 2:37 and then was a widow until she was eighty-four. She never left the temple but worshiped night and day, fasting and praying.


Luke 8:15 “… these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.”

Matthew 12:35 A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him.

John 3:21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

Genesis 22:18 and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me."

Acts 10:22 The men replied, "We have come from Cornelius the centurion. He is a righteous and God-fearing man, who is respected by all the Jewish people. A holy angel told him to ask you to come to his house so that he could hear what you have to say."

Acts 10:35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right.

Hebrews 12:23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,
Luke 7:4 When they came to Jesus, they pleaded earnestly with him, "This man deserves to have you do this,

Psalm 69:28 May they be blotted out of the book of life and not be listed with the righteous.


Matthew 12:35

A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him.

Luke 8:15

But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop.

From these scriptures, we see that Jesus himself says there are good people.




Romans 3

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Paul is just explaining that Jews were sinful too.

Where do you get that means no one ever was righteous? You have to throw away many scriptures to maintain your Calvinistic view.

God's Truth
October 11th, 2015, 12:55 AM
I don't believe you believe scripture or understand them! Man by nature in the flesh can't please God Rom 8:8 can't obey God Rom 8:7!

The Bible doesn't say that.

beloved57
October 11th, 2015, 01:43 AM
The Bible doesn't say that.

Sure it does, you don't believe or understand the scriptures!

beloved57
October 11th, 2015, 01:48 AM
I have no idea how you think that means there are no righteous people.
Do you really think your misunderstanding of that scripture nullifies all these scriptures:

Genesis 32:28 Then the man said, "Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome."

There were righteous people who obeyed God before Jesus came, and after Jesus.

Luke 1:6 Both of them were righteous in the sight of God, observing all the Lord's commands and decrees blamelessly.

Genesis 6:8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.

Genesis 7:1 The LORD then said to Noah, "Go into the ark, you and your whole family, because I have found you righteous in this generation.

Luke 2:25 Now there was a man in Jerusalem called Simeon, who was righteous and devout. He was waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was on him.

John 1:47 When Jesus saw Nathanael approaching, he said of him, "Here truly is an Israelite in whom there is no deceit."

Job 1:1, 8 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God...

1 Kings 9:4 And if you will walk before me, as David your father walked, in integrity of heart, and in uprightness...

1 Kings 15:5 For David had done what was right in the eyes of the LORD and had not failed to keep any of the LORD's commands all the days of his life--except in the case of Uriah the Hittite.

Genesis 17:1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to him and said, "I am God Almighty; walk before me faithfully and be blameless.

Genesis 26:4-5 I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and will give them all these lands, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because Abraham obeyed me and kept my requirements, my commands, my decrees and my laws."

Luke 1:30 But the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God.

Acts 22:12 "A man named Ananias came to see me. He was a devout observer of the law and highly respected by all the Jews living there.


Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: "He could not be found, because God had taken him away." For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.

Genesis 5:24 Enoch walked faithfully with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.

Luke 2:37 and then was a widow until she was eighty-four. She never left the temple but worshiped night and day, fasting and praying.


Luke 8:15 “… these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.”

Matthew 12:35 A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him.

John 3:21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

Genesis 22:18 and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me."

Acts 10:22 The men replied, "We have come from Cornelius the centurion. He is a righteous and God-fearing man, who is respected by all the Jewish people. A holy angel told him to ask you to come to his house so that he could hear what you have to say."

Acts 10:35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right.

Hebrews 12:23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,
Luke 7:4 When they came to Jesus, they pleaded earnestly with him, "This man deserves to have you do this,

Psalm 69:28 May they be blotted out of the book of life and not be listed with the righteous.


Matthew 12:35

A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him.

Luke 8:15

But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop.

From these scriptures, we see that Jesus himself says there are good people.



Paul is just explaining that Jews were sinful too.

Where do you get that means no one ever was righteous? You have to throw away many scriptures to maintain your Calvinistic view.

None by nature are righteous Rom 3:10

God's Truth
October 11th, 2015, 11:44 AM
Sure it does, you don't believe or understand the scriptures!

You have to add words to the scriptures that are not there to make it say what you want.

God does not save unbelievers.

God saves sinners that have faith in Him.

God's Truth
October 11th, 2015, 11:49 AM
None by nature are righteous Rom 3:10

I gave you scriptures about people by nature were righteous.

beloved57
October 11th, 2015, 01:49 PM
I gave you scriptures about people by nature were righteous.

Do you want to debate the points of the OP ?

serpentdove
October 14th, 2015, 11:10 AM
[Jn 15:5]

When they depart from him, it is evidence that they never belonged to him. They believed that they believed but didn't (1 Jn 2:19).

See:

Abide in Him (http://www.vananne.com/applesofgold/Abide%20in%20Him.pdf)

beloved57
October 27th, 2015, 04:59 AM
Those who become believers in time, not only do they have a Union with Christ before they believe, they have a Eternal Union with Him before the world began, and they had a Eternal Life Union with Him ! You see, Eternal Life has always been in the Son of God, before Adam existed, John makes it clear 1 Jn 5:11,12

And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

He that hath the Son hath life or eternal life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

And all of us Chosen in the Son before the foundation Eph 1:4 hath the Son, and even just as important, the Son had us, given to Him by the Father Jn 17:2

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

We had this Eternal Life with Christ from the beginning 1 Jn 1:2

2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us)

This Eternal Union whereby all the Chosen in the Son had Eternal Life, the Eternal Life Union was not yet experimental, but only Legal, yet binding, meaning it ensured a experimental Union in or during their physical life, and this would also be a manifestation of that Eternal Union of Life they had in the Son !

The whole basis of receiving experimentally Eternal Life in our Life time is due to the Eternal Legal Union of it in the Son we had before the foundation.

Thats why Paul wrote to Titus [The Gentile Pastor] this Titus 1:1-2

Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;


That same Eternal Life was in His Son 1 Jn 5:11

11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

When God gives something by Promise, its Ours, Just like when He gave Abraham Inheritance by Promise Gal 3:18

For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise:[B] but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

In conclusion, the Chosen ones in Christ have always had a Right to the Tree of Life in the Son Rev 22:14

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

That Tree of Life is symbolic of Eternal Life ! They had a Legal Right by Eternal Union in Christ , to the Tree of Life, and to enter into the Gates into the City !

Nanja
October 27th, 2015, 08:36 AM
Those who become believers in time, not only do they have a Union with Christ before they believe, they have a Eternal Union with Him before the world began, and they had a Eternal Life Union with Him ! You see, Eternal Life has always been in the Son of God, before Adam existed, John makes it clear 1 Jn 5:11,12

And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

He that hath the Son hath life or eternal life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

And all of us Chosen in the Son before the foundation Eph 1:4 hath the Son, and even just as important, the Son had us, given to Him by the Father Jn 17:2

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

We had this Eternal Life with Christ from the beginning 1 Jn 1:2

2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us)

This Eternal Union whereby all the Chosen in the Son had Eternal Life, the Eternal Life Union was not yet experimental, but only Legal, yet binding, meaning it ensured a experimental Union in or during their physical life, and this would also be a manifestation of that Eternal Union of Life they had in the Son !

The whole basis of receiving experimentally Eternal Life in our Life time is due to the Eternal Legal Union of it in the Son we had before the foundation.

Thats why Paul wrote to Titus [The Gentile Pastor] this Titus 1:1-2

Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;


That same Eternal Life was in His Son 1 Jn 5:11

11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

When God gives something by Promise, its Ours, Just like when He gave Abraham Inheritance by Promise Gal 3:18

For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise:[B] but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

In conclusion, the Chosen ones in Christ have always had a Right to the Tree of Life in the Son Rev 22:14

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

That Tree of Life is symbolic of Eternal Life ! They had a Legal Right by Eternal Union in Christ , to the Tree of Life, and to enter into the Gates into the City !


Amen, and I believe that the Eternal Legal Union the Children of Promise Gal. 4:28
had in Christ with regard to Eternal Life, that it pertains also to their being eternally
declared Justified / Righteous as their sins were imputed to their Covenant Head and
Surety Christ Jesus Heb. 7:22; Rev. 13:8; Rom. 4:7-8; Is. 53:6.


~~~~~

beloved57
October 27th, 2015, 08:47 AM
Amen, and I believe that the Eternal Legal Union the Children of Promise Gal. 4:28
had in Christ with regard to Eternal Life, that it pertains also to their being eternally
declared Justified / Righteous as their sins were imputed to their Covenant Head and
Surety Christ Jesus Heb. 7:22; Rev. 13:8; Rom. 4:7-8; Is. 53:6.


~~~~~

You are exactly right!

beloved57
November 3rd, 2015, 11:25 AM
Rom 6:6-7

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Because of Union with Christ before we believe, we whom He died for were Crucified with Him !

What false teachers dont know as they hijack scripture truth, it this:

That every last one Christ died for, because they were in Purpose, a Legal binding Union with Christ, He being constituted their Surety and Head, the were Crucified with Him, that old man [old self] who we are in Adam, Gods Judgment of Condemnation and Death has already fell upon us for all of our sins against Him through Our Surety and Covenant Head Christ [Rom 5:18a] with this attending results, #1 That the Body of sin might be destroyed [is destroyed or annulled] which means the Old man and its deed cannot condemned us before God, since God has effectually dealt with them in Christ's death, condemned them once and for all ! Thats what Paul means here Rom 8:3
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

God has once and for all condemned the sins of His People, all the sins in the flesh they shall ever commit, in the Crucifixion of Christ, that covers the entirety of their old man, who they are in Adam !

beloved57
November 3rd, 2015, 01:23 PM
Now another attending result of being Crucified with Christ is that those He died for shall no more be a slave to sin, or a servant to sin. Remember Jesus words here Jn 8:34

34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Folks being a Servant of Sin is Unbelief, and it characterizes all that are unregenerate, we are all by nature unregenerate servants of sin. Paul says it also more graphically here Eph 2:2-3 !

Well that will not always be True of all them Christ died for, by His Crucifixion He has done this Jn 8:36

36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Hence through His Death alone , on the Cross, Not His death and plus ones faith, or plus ones repentance, but by His redeeming death alone they are no longer servants or slaves to sin Rom 6:17

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Proof that we are no loner servants to sin is when we obey the Gospel, as long as we remain servants to sin we cannot obey the Gospel.

You see, through the death of Christ that servitude to sin has been abolished, so that or for the purpose of, we shall not no more serve sin, or remain lost in unbelief. You see all unbelief resides in the Old man which was destroyed Rom 6:6-7 !

Yes, one way we serve sin is by our unbelief, but through Christ's death, we all shall be delivered from unbelief and will come to experimentally know the Truth which sets us free Jn 8:32

And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Knowing the Truth therefore is an saving benefit of being Crucified with Christ. In fact its the same Truth Knowing as Paul writes of here 1 Tim 2:4

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

To know the Truth means :

To know and understand the things which proceed from the Spirit ! Christ's death ensures a Saving Application of Knowledge of Salvation, which sets us free !

And by this we shall be no longer servants to sin !