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Choleric
September 30th, 2012, 08:09 PM
I was able to find some cached pages online of the list. Not sure when I last updated it, but I found this one from 7/16/12. Again, let me know if I am missing someone.

Here is the list as of 10/15/13:

The 'Jesus is not God' people (Non-trinitarians)
1) Keypurr
2) Pierac
3) csuguy
4) adopted son 77
5) Paul McNabb (Mormon)
6) Seydlitz77 (Mormon)
7) Martin.Harris (Mormon)
8) Elected4ever
9) Squeaky
10) Aner
11) Lazy Afternoon
12) truebeliever7
13) jerzy
14) krystyna
15) Krsto
16) Oatmeal
17) meshak
18) jamie (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3597879&postcount=9)


Religious Zealots (saved by works crowd):
1) Rightglory
2) Spitfire
3) Evoken
4) chrysostom
5) rbdeli
6) RC_Eagle
7) The Reverent One
8) annabenedetti
9) The Barbarian
10) patricius79
11) Yahushuan
12) IXOYE - makes salvation and born again two separate events
13) graceandpeace - makes salvation and born again two separate events
14) Cruciform
15) Truthsetsfree
16) genuineoriginal "Salvation is given only to those who merit it by pleasing God" (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3506289&postcount=31)

The 'Paul is a godless liar' crowd (Ebionites) (**this crowd also believes works are necessary for salvation)
1) Glenda (Glenda also denies the deity of Christ, she is trying to get to the bottom of the Lake of Fire)
2) jeremysdemo


Miscellaneous
1) Freelight (spiritualist/universalist)

If you are on this list and you repent of your heresy, or if you find my categorization of your beliefs is in error, just post and let us know.

If you feel someone needs to be added to the list, either post or PM me. In order to speed things along, if you can post a link to one of the offending party's posts reflecting their heresy, that would be greatly appreciated. Also, a person must have a decent amount of posts and have been around for a few months at least to be considered for the list. I don't want to throw every one post wonder who wanders through here onto the list. After all, this is TOL's list and if the person isn't a regular visitor, they don't make the cut.

Thanks for any help or feedback.

:wave2::thumb::wave:

Eeset
September 30th, 2012, 08:25 PM
Have you eaten at Rotier's?

Choleric
September 30th, 2012, 08:37 PM
Have you eaten at Rotier's?

NO, it sounds lovely.

Daedalean's_Sun
September 30th, 2012, 09:25 PM
The pretentiousness of these lists are always amusing :rolleyes:

Thunder's Muse
September 30th, 2012, 09:31 PM
The pretentiousness of these lists are always amusing :rolleyes:



Agreed :chuckle:

Angel4Truth
September 30th, 2012, 09:34 PM
The pretentiousness of these lists are always amusing :rolleyes:

Why were you so upset in the other thread that you weren't on it then?

Choleric
October 1st, 2012, 08:04 AM
The pretentiousness of these lists are always amusing :rolleyes:

Why so? We are instructed in Scripture to mark heretics. How would you fulfill that commandment on a forum?

g_n_o_s_i_s
October 1st, 2012, 08:58 AM
I'm still not on it.

serpentdove
October 1st, 2012, 09:03 AM
It's back! :jump: Eph 5:11

rainee
October 1st, 2012, 09:15 AM
Hi Choleric!
Glad to see you!

I was just going to Knights thread to ask for you to start a new one of these!!

I have been reading a couple of new people and am hoping you will pay enough attention to be able to say what they are believing about Jesus.
For me that is how it must be - I think I need to know where one is standing on this Subject!

Hope you have a great future thread!

rainee
October 1st, 2012, 09:15 AM
The pretentiousness of these lists are always amusing :rolleyes:

This is where you may feel left out?

OMEGA
October 1st, 2012, 09:37 AM
Notice that my name is never there.:angel:

Choleric must have been Raptured just after that list was made.:rapture:

Spitfire
October 1st, 2012, 10:47 AM
Funny how my name sometimes comes up on lists like these (well, it was already there before in this case...) but never when people are listing who else they love so much around here. :p

Choleric
October 1st, 2012, 03:00 PM
Hi Choleric!
Glad to see you!

I was just going to Knights thread to ask for you to start a new one of these!!

I have been reading a couple of new people and am hoping you will pay enough attention to be able to say what they are believing about Jesus.
For me that is how it must be - I think I need to know where one is standing on this Subject!

Hope you have a great future thread!

Thanks Rainee.

Arthur Brain
October 1st, 2012, 03:15 PM
Great. The reintroduction of the ego driven pompous "anyone who doesn't agree with my theology" is a heretic bunk...

:yawn:

serpentdove
October 1st, 2012, 03:17 PM
Great. The reintroduction of the ego driven pompous "anyone who doesn't agree with my theology" is a heretic bunk...Jn 14:6

Arthur Brain
October 1st, 2012, 03:24 PM
Jn 14:6

Oh, if it isn't Miss "lets burn prostitutes alive" Charm herself with another verse quote...

Nice company you've got there choleric....

:Plain:

Choleric
October 2nd, 2012, 06:38 AM
Great. The reintroduction of the ego driven pompous "anyone who doesn't agree with my theology" is a heretic bunk...

:yawn:

C'mon AB. That isn't even an attempt at intellectual honesty. This isn't a thread about doctrinal purity, it's about the basic fundamentals. You know that.

If it was what you say, then Calvinists and open theists and Pentecostals etc would be on here.

If you don't believe that 1) Jesus is God 2) salvation is by faith without works and 3) Paul was not a heretic; then you are way outside basic, across the board Christianity.

Surely you know that, right?

Buzz
October 2nd, 2012, 08:05 AM
Why so? We are instructed in Scripture to mark heretics. How would you fulfill that commandment on a forum?You can add the names of any Calvinist, and it should top your list.

Arthur Brain
October 2nd, 2012, 10:53 PM
C'mon AB. That isn't even an attempt at intellectual honesty. This isn't a thread about doctrinal purity, it's about the basic fundamentals. You know that.

If it was what you say, then Calvinists and open theists and Pentecostals etc would be on here.

If you don't believe that 1) Jesus is God 2) salvation is by faith without works and 3) Paul was not a heretic; then you are way outside basic, across the board Christianity.

Surely you know that, right?

Oh give me a break. There's others who would shout 'heretic!' for having a different set of 'basics' and it's just who can shout the loudest for the most part. Carry on with your 'crusade' for all it actually means. If you took a step back from the self assured pomposity of it you might actually see how alienating and bemusing the whole thing is to many looking in....

:Plain:

Choleric
October 3rd, 2012, 07:51 AM
Oh give me a break. There's others who would shout 'heretic!' for having a different set of 'basics' and it's just who can shout the loudest for the most part. Carry on with your 'crusade' for all it actually means. If you took a step back from the self assured pomposity of it you might actually see how alienating and bemusing the whole thing is to many looking in....

:Plain:

If you find standing for basic Christianity "amusing" then what do you believe? Do you think it is ok the deny the deity of Christ, to deny half the New Testament and to deny salvation is by grace without works? Do you think God was kidding when He said salvation was only thoroughly Christ or is that too narrow for you too?

What is truth to you? Is there such a thing as truth or is everything "relative"?

Are you a universalist or just someone who wants everyone to like him because you can't stand division, even if it means standing for truth. The word of God has plenty to say about all of that too.

Jesus said "truth" will set us free. Half truths will not. He also said that men would hate us for His names sake. Are you afraid that standing for truth might make some people not like you?

Pick a side AB.

Arthur Brain
October 3rd, 2012, 10:37 AM
If you find standing for basic Christianity "amusing" then what do you believe? Do you think it is ok the deny the deity of Christ, to deny half the New Testament and to deny salvation is by grace without works? Do you think God was kidding when He said salvation was only thoroughly Christ or is that too narrow for you too?

Where did I say I found any such thing "amusing" exactly? I find your thread anything but as it does no such thing. You simply concoct a list of people who don't believe the exact same theology as yourself, call them heretics and then 'invite' them to let you know if they repent of their 'heresy' - believe the same as you - and then you'll take them off the list. Where were you appointed as the sole arbiter of what everyone else should believe?


What is truth to you? Is there such a thing as truth or is everything "relative"?

Of course there's such a thing as truth. And...?


Are you a universalist or just someone who wants everyone to like him because you can't stand division, even if it means standing for truth. The word of God has plenty to say about all of that too.

Are you kidding? If I 'wanted everyone to like me' then I wouldn't bother to take an opposing position to others on any subject on any thread...:AMR:
As far as I'm concerned threads like yours are only designed to cause division and sow dischord. There'll be plenty who think you're a heretic and be just as assured that they have the 'truth'.


Jesus said "truth" will set us free. Half truths will not. He also said that men would hate us for His names sake. Are you afraid that standing for truth might make some people not like you?

Oh enough with the martyr complex already. I don't hate you at all choleric. As before - if I was that bothered about not being liked I wouldn't take a stand on any given thread so your argument there simply doesn't work.


Pick a side AB.

I do already, on a number of topics. Thanks anyway though....

:e4e:

Choleric
October 3rd, 2012, 03:39 PM
Where did I say I found any such thing "amusing" exactly? I find your thread anything but as it does no such thing. You simply concoct a list of people who don't believe the exact same theology as yourself, call them heretics and then 'invite' them to let you know if they repent of their 'heresy' - believe the same as you - and then you'll take them off the list. Where were you appointed as the sole arbiter of what everyone else should believe?

As a Christian I am told to do a few things. 1- share the gospel 2- mark those that teach false gospels

I am doing both. I did not concoct a list. And or the record none of the people on my list would argue with their classification. The works crowd will proudly stand for their belief that they have to work to attain and/or maintain their salvation. Same for the other groups.

Again, the gospel is one thing and it is absolute. It is not negotiable. It isn't pliable. If you deny salvation is a free gift without works, you will die in your sins. (Rom 10:3). If you deny the deity of Christ, you are placing whatever faith you have in a false Christ and you will die in your sins. If you believe that Paul was a heretic, you have no idea what the gospel is and will die in your sins.

If you disagree, please do so with more intelligence than simply calling me mean.



Of course there's such a thing as truth. And...?

Where is it? Do you stand up for it or at least stand by it? Do you believe a person can get saved by offering God their works? Do you believe that a person can get saved without Paul's epistles? Are you afraid to tell someone their doctrine is the broad road that leads to eternal hell? Are you too "nice" for that?


Are you kidding? If I 'wanted everyone to like me' then I wouldn't bother to take an opposing position to others on any subject on any thread...:AMR:

I'm not talking about what your favorite color is, or what your various political views are. I am talking about salvation. It is one thing, and it is not 100 others. Are you taking a stand with anyone who teaches or believes error? Or do you choose not to talk about religious matters because you don't want to be "dogmatic"?


As far as I'm concerned threads like yours are only designed to cause division and sow dischord. There'll be plenty who think you're a heretic and be just as assured that they have the 'truth'.

Not to sow discord, but to obey this verse:

Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

How do you suppose we fulfill that command on a forum? If you have an alternate to the list, I'm all ears. Something tells me your preference will be to ignore the verse altogether in the "spirit of unity".


Oh enough with the martyr complex already. I don't hate you at all choleric. As before - if I was that bothered about not being liked I wouldn't take a stand on any given thread so your argument there simply doesn't work.

I do already, on a number of topics. Thanks anyway though....

:e4e:

Take a stand. Tell me what you think about salvation and obedience to "mark them".

Maybe you will just sit down instead.
:Plain:

Arthur Brain
October 3rd, 2012, 04:19 PM
As a Christian I am told to do a few things. 1- share the gospel 2- mark those that teach false gospels

I am doing both. I did not concoct a list. And or the record none of the people on my list would argue with their classification. The works crowd will proudly stand for their belief that they have to work to attain and/or maintain their salvation. Same for the other groups.

Yes you have concocted a list. Basically it's anyone who doesn't in whole ascribe to your theological line of thinking. Others have done the same tired thing and point the same accusing finger at others who don't agree with them. It's nowt new and neither are you in that regard...


Again, the gospel is one thing and it is absolute. It is not negotiable. It isn't pliable. If you deny salvation is a free gift without works, you will die in your sins. (Rom 10:3). If you deny the deity of Christ, you are placing whatever faith you have in a false Christ and you will die in your sins. If you believe that Paul was a heretic, you have no idea what the gospel is and will die in your sins.

Well thank you St choleric...


If you disagree, please do so with more intelligence than simply calling me mean.

Where did I call you mean exactly? Please point out where else you're making stuff up dude.


Where is it? Do you stand up for it or at least stand by it? Do you believe a person can get saved by offering God their works? Do you believe that a person can get saved without Paul's epistles? Are you afraid to tell someone their doctrine is the broad road that leads to eternal hell? Are you too "nice" for that?

Oh, so I guess it's 'heresy' to not believe in an eternal hell as well is it? Most in the early church didn't go along with the dogma of eternal torment so if you're peddling that as 'truth' then you're just another zealot who likes the sound of his own voice and isn't happy unless he finds disagreement. Again - nowt new.

And are you suggesting that people can't actually be 'saved' unless they read Paul's epistles or something regardless? :AMR:


I'm not talking about what your favorite color is, or what your various political views are. I am talking about salvation. It is one thing, and it is not 100 others. Are you taking a stand with anyone who teaches or believes error? Or do you choose not to talk about religious matters because you don't want to be "dogmatic"?

I'm not dogmatic choleric, that's kinda the point. You're a dime a dozen where it comes to what 'teaching error' consists of and like plenty others you're equally vehement that you have the truth and everyone from a contrary position doesn't. You're all tiresome frankly.


Not to sow discord, but to obey this verse:

Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

How ironic. You're the one intent on causing division because you're so egotistical as to presuppose you're the only one who has the 'truth'.


How do you suppose we fulfill that command on a forum? If you have an alternate to the list, I'm all ears. Something tells me your preference will be to ignore the verse altogether in the "spirit of unity".

No, you wouldn't be 'all ears' choleric. You'll doubtless label me a heretic because I don't ascribe to an 'eternal hell' and you can get on with that frankly. It'll simply confirm that you're not interested in genuine debate on contentious issues but only intent on your own obsessive agenda if so.



Take a stand. Tell me what you think about salvation and obedience to "mark them".

I'm not interested in 'marking others' as heretics. I'm strongly opposed to some of the 'teachings' I see on here, but I don't need to revert to pointless name calling and lists fuelled by nothing but ego.


Maybe you will just sit down instead.
:Plain:

Maybe I'll do a sudoku puzzle after submitting this....who knows?

:Plain:

g_n_o_s_i_s
October 3rd, 2012, 08:07 PM
If you deny salvation is a free gift without works, you will die in your sins. (Rom 10:3). If you deny the deity of Christ, you are placing whatever faith you have in a false Christ and you will die in your sins. If you believe that Paul was a heretic, you have no idea what the gospel is and will die in your sins.

Is the reason I agree with all these points I'm being held back from this esteemed list?

TruthSetsFree
October 4th, 2012, 09:34 AM
Protestantism is essentially a heresy

g_n_o_s_i_s
October 4th, 2012, 09:43 AM
Protestantism is essentially a heresy

Heresy is just a big stick used to beat up people you disagree with.

Choleric
October 5th, 2012, 11:51 AM
Yes you have concocted a list. Basically it's anyone who doesn't in whole ascribe to your theological line of thinking. Others have done the same tired thing and point the same accusing finger at others who don't agree with them. It's nowt new and neither are you in that regard...

It is not a list based on my theological way of thinking. If it was Calvinists and Pentecostals and open theists would be on the list. This list is based on basic Christianity. This is basic, first Sunday school class lesson type stuff. The idea that you can't understand the difference is quite puzzling for someone with "brain" in their name.


Where did I call you mean exactly? Please point out where else you're making stuff up dude.

It was implied. You are calling me divisive and such like. Or are you saying I'm a wonderfully nice and caring person for being divisive?


Oh, so I guess it's 'heresy' to not believe in an eternal hell as well is it? Most in the early church didn't go along with the dogma of eternal torment so if you're peddling that as 'truth' then you're just another zealot who likes the sound of his own voice and isn't happy unless he finds disagreement. Again - nowt new.

Of course there is real eternal hell. This is in the bible. Jesus said to fear him who had the power to throw both body and soul into hell and in revelation we read "the smoke of their torment went up day and night forever" and they "have no rest". People still exist who have no rest, not non-existent people. Of course, you could all God a liar.

But I would not claim you will go to hell for not believing in hell. I would say it explains a lot about your beliefs and about your view of God that you don't believe the bible. It explains why you and I are having this conversation.


And are you suggesting that people can't actually be 'saved' unless they read Paul's epistles or something regardless? :AMR:

You would have no idea what the gospel was without Paul's letters, particularly Romans and Galatians. That is a fact. The reason people reject Paul's apostleship is for that very reason, as the salvation by grace without works is clearly taught by Paul and those who reject him would rather work for their salvation. To reject Paul is to reject free salvation without works. Just ask anyone on the list.


I'm not dogmatic choleric, that's kinda the point. You're a dime a dozen where it comes to what 'teaching error' consists of and like plenty others you're equally vehement that you have the truth and everyone from a contrary position doesn't. You're all tiresome frankly.

Well pray tell, tell us all what the gospel is then. Or are you afraid to stand for what you believe in? Do you believe anything enough to trouble yourself with telling someone, or is truth more "fluid" than that?

I believe what God says. It is appointed into man once to die and then face judgement. Life is not a negotiation, there are real consequences to whether or not a person is Born Again. Eternity is a long time to be wrong. People that teach the things those on the list teach are in danger of eternal torment and the people that believe that heresy are in the same danger.

This is not a game.


How ironic. You're the one intent on causing division because you're so egotistical as to presuppose you're the only one who has the 'truth'.

I don't "have" any truth. I simple repeat what I read. I believe what I read, and respond. That is what people do when they believe something, they tell others.


No, you wouldn't be 'all ears' choleric. You'll doubtless label me a heretic because I don't ascribe to an 'eternal hell' and you can get on with that frankly. It'll simply confirm that you're not interested in genuine debate on contentious issues but only intent on your own obsessive agenda if so.

I would love to have a civilized debate on eternal hell. I and yes, I am obsessed with truth and people getting saved. Paul warned against heresy because it was "another gospel" that would lead people astray. It is not the time to play nice.


I'm not interested in 'marking others' as heretics.

That is pretty obvious. Paul must have been having a bad day.


I'm strongly opposed to some of the 'teachings' I see on here, but I don't need to revert to pointless name calling and lists fuelled by nothing but ego.

So you are so opposed that you keep silent? Great plan. :Plain:


Maybe I'll do a sudoku puzzle after submitting this....who knows?

:Plain:

Sudoku? You are a heretic! ;)

SeraphimsCherub
October 5th, 2012, 11:55 AM
It is not a list based on my theological way of thinking. If it was Calvinists and Pentecostals and open theists would be on the list. This list is based on basic Christianity. This is basic, first Sunday school class lesson type stuff. The idea that you can't understand that is quite puzzling to someone with "brain" I'm their name.

So you believe that those who "actually" believe in the HOLY SPIRIT,and Operate in the gifts of the SPIRIT are heretics? Wow...So dead Christianity is better in your book,that the SPIRIT of the "LIVING" GOD? How interesting...

Choleric
October 5th, 2012, 12:06 PM
So you believe that those who "actually" believe in the HOLY SPIRIT,and Operate in the gifts of the SPIRIT are heretics? Wow...So dead Christianity is better in your book,that the SPIRIT of the "LIVING" GOD? How interesting...

Did I say any of what you just said? Pentecostals are wrong because they ( generally) teach you have to be good enough to earn or keep salvation. That is error. We may disagree about the role of the Holy Spirit, but you aren't goin to go to hell over it. The list is for basic Christianity, not what born again Chriatians argue over.

If you think salvation has to be earned, or that Paul was a heretic, or that Jesus is not God, you are likely lost.

SeraphimsCherub
October 5th, 2012, 12:33 PM
Did I say any of what you just said? Pentecostals are wrong because they ( generally) teach you have to be good enough to earn or keep salvation. That is error. We may disagree about the role of the Holy Spirit, but you aren't goin to go to hell over it. The list is for basic Christianity, not what born again Chriatians argue over.

If you think salvation has to be earned, or that Paul was a heretic, or that Jesus is not God, you are likely lost.

Yeah..i totally agree with you there. No...I'm SAVED EVERLASTINGLY...BY THE EVERLASTING GRACE OF THE ETERNAL GOD...THE FATHER~CHRIST JESUS THE SON~&~HIS HOLY SPIRIT...THE SPIRIT OF THE FATHER,AND OF THE SON. AMEN!

Daedalean's_Sun
October 5th, 2012, 07:25 PM
Why were you so upset in the other thread that you weren't on it then?

I was being facetious.

Daedalean's_Sun
October 5th, 2012, 07:33 PM
Why so? We are instructed in Scripture to mark heretics. How would you fulfill that commandment on a forum?

Except in this case Heretics = those with differing opinions. You're just not honest enough to admit it.

Arthur Brain
October 5th, 2012, 11:18 PM
It is not a list based on my theological way of thinking. If it was Calvinists and Pentecostals and open theists would be on the list. This list is based on basic Christianity. This is basic, first Sunday school class lesson type stuff. The idea that you can't understand the difference is quite puzzling for someone with "brain" in their name.

Except your 'basic, first Sunday school class lesson' is at odds with others. Heck, I don't recall this at me own those years back. If you're going to call people 'heretics' simply for not having this apparent 'basic' understanding of 'proper faith' then it's puzzling in turn why you'd dedicate a thread to the topic.


It was implied. You are calling me divisive and such like. Or are you saying I'm a wonderfully nice and caring person for being divisive?

All your previous thread did was invite objection and dischord. Grief, if you've got SD as an 'ally' then you really should look at things. She wouldn't know 'truth' from a stock car pile up. Look at her sig for crying out loud. Do you even consider what it must appear like for observers looking in to see supposed Christians bickering away over stuff?


Of course there is real eternal hell. This is in the bible. Jesus said to fear him who had the power to throw both body and soul into hell and in revelation we read "the smoke of their torment went up day and night forever" and they "have no rest". People still exist who have no rest, not non-existent people. Of course, you could all God a liar.

Um, why do you suppose I asked you about your knowledge of the early church in regards to this subject? What do you actually know about the original texts and translations? Why was eternal torment a minority school of thought at the time? Have you ever researched the topic to any degree? Unless you have you're in no position to say 'of course there is'. Perhaps you can explain how death and hades are thrown into the lake of fire as well?


But I would not claim you will go to hell for not believing in hell. I would say it explains a lot about your beliefs and about your view of God that you don't believe the bible. It explains why you and I are having this conversation.

It would only explain why I don't believe in a cruel and capricious God choleric. The fact that you may equate that with 'not believing the bible' only goes to serve what you know or don't know about the above....


You would have no idea what the gospel was without Paul's letters, particularly Romans and Galatians. That is a fact. The reason people reject Paul's apostleship is for that very reason, as the salvation by grace without works is clearly taught by Paul and those who reject him would rather work for their salvation. To reject Paul is to reject free salvation without works. Just ask anyone on the list.

So....if someone were to read the bible sans Paul it would be effectively useless? :AMR:


Well pray tell, tell us all what the gospel is then. Or are you afraid to stand for what you believe in? Do you believe anything enough to trouble yourself with telling someone, or is truth more "fluid" than that?

As far as I recall the gospel = 'good news'. Or is that too basic?


I believe what God says. It is appointed into man once to die and then face judgement. Life is not a negotiation, there are real consequences to whether or not a person is Born Again. Eternity is a long time to be wrong. People that teach the things those on the list teach are in danger of eternal torment and the people that believe that heresy are in the same danger.

It's quite bemusing that Paul himself never once makes mention of 'hell' then isn't it, considering what you believe it to be? What, wasn't it important enough or something?


This is not a game.

Well it wouldn't catch on if it was....:Plain:


I don't "have" any truth. I simple repeat what I read. I believe what I read, and respond. That is what people do when they believe something, they tell others.

So telling everyone else that if they don't believe the 'basics' as yourself they're wrong is simply 'repeating what you've read is it'?


I would love to have a civilized debate on eternal hell. I and yes, I am obsessed with truth and people getting saved. Paul warned against heresy because it was "another gospel" that would lead people astray. It is not the time to play nice.

As before, Paul never mentioned 'hell' the once in his ministry, so why was that considering the magnitude of such according to you?


That is pretty obvious. Paul must have been having a bad day.

:liberals:


So you are so opposed that you keep silent? Great plan. :Plain:

Er, nope. I'm just opposed to using inflammatory insults and dialogue as conversation - unless I'm dealing with an obvious troll. Anything wrong with that?



Sudoku? You are a heretic! ;)

Yeah, ok, I'll give you that one....:chuckle:

YahuShuan
October 6th, 2012, 10:35 AM
Choleric, you still got me down in the saved by works crowds eh?
I'm calling you a Liar. Just like your father the devil is.
I told you time and time again, I am saved by the BLOOD OF THE MESSIAH YAHU'SHUA.
So, as Scripture says, even though you accuse me of heresy, I stand as righteous, BY HIS BLOOD. I always have.

And now, what you thought to do to me, will be done to you.

Also, I won't call you a heretic, I will simply say to you what JESUS SAID...

Luk 24:25-27 And He said to them, “O thoughtless ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! Was it not necessary for the Messiah to suffer these and to enter into His esteem?” And beginning at Mosheh and all the Prophets, He was explaining to them in all the Scriptures the matters concerning Himself.

So stop LYING to the people, the Gospel IS in the Old Testament...And JESUS didn't need Paul to do a thing!!!

TruthSetsFree
October 7th, 2012, 02:49 PM
Heresy is just a big stick used to beat up people you disagree with.

right... always

whatever you say

u r god, no doubt

freelight
October 7th, 2012, 03:41 PM
I'm still not on it.


A while back I messaged Choleric about adding you under my catagory, and even modifying the catagory title, expanding it a bit, since I'm very 'eclectic',...but no response.

It appears hes more interested in the main 'heresies' he deems most important, while we more liberal spiritualists and gnostics of various temperments, and kind of 'low' on the radar screen. I have just enough dangerous knowledge to implicate modern forms of 'Christianity' with a versatility in many other religious philosophies and schools to have apparently earned a place on the list.

To some I'm the resident 'New Ager', 'Universal Mystic'...being a student of universal spirituality, eclectic spiritualist, meta-theist, esotericist, meta-physician, etc. Also the resident 'dharmist' as a very liberal 'hindu' with philosophical roots in the Advaita Vedanta (http://indianphilosophy.50webs.com/advaita.htm) school...but conversant with all schools of 'non-dualism' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nondualism). The fundamental reality is what is at the base or root of all existence, discovered and realized by the great rishis/sages (realized ones). They discovered the true God-essence in their own hearts...as being non-different from the Universal God-presence, but individualized within.

'God' as absolute reality outshines/transcends any concept or image of a so-called 'Satan' or the 'devil', and 'heresy' is the rightful privilege of a truly responsible person freely choosing to do their own 'thinking' in discerning what is 'real' from what is 'unreal' (right discrimination). This continual vigilence and 'questioning' everything...continues moment to moment.

In-joy,


pj

Choleric
October 8th, 2012, 01:18 PM
Except in this case Heretics = those with differing opinions. You're just not honest enough to admit it.

In the biblical sense of the word, it is those that Paul warned teach "another gospel". If you agree with the theology of those on the list, you do just that. So, yes...it is differing opinion.

Daedalean's_Sun
October 8th, 2012, 01:27 PM
In the biblical sense of the word, it is those that Paul warned teach "another gospel". If you agree with the theology of those on the list, you do just that. So, yes...it is differing opinion.

Much of what you believe is interpretation. You have no guarantee what you teach isn't "another gospel".

Choleric
October 8th, 2012, 02:17 PM
Except your 'basic, first Sunday school class lesson' is at odds with others. Heck, I don't recall this at me own those years back. If you're going to call people 'heretics' simply for not having this apparent 'basic' understanding of 'proper faith' then it's puzzling in turn why you'd dedicate a thread to the topic.

Yes, the bible is at odds with many, that is why they are called heretics. I dedicate a thread to it as to warn others by "marking" those who teach error. I wish I would have had this list when I first joined this forum. I didn't know there were so many heresies in the world. I had quite a few long, frustrating conversations with people, only to learn days later that they were teaching false doctrine. Had I had this list, I would have been able to avoid that.


All your previous thread did was invite objection and dischord. Grief, if you've got SD as an 'ally' then you really should look at things. She wouldn't know 'truth' from a stock car pile up. Look at her sig for crying out loud. Do you even consider what it must appear like for observers looking in to see supposed Christians bickering away over stuff?

It is not intended to invite any dischord, it is intended to mark heretics as a warning to others who may be harmed by their false teaching.

SD stands for truth, which is not pliable and is easily discernible by reading and believing the bible, which the Laodecian church has great trouble with.



Um, why do you suppose I asked you about your knowledge of the early church in regards to this subject? What do you actually know about the original texts and translations?

This statement is a direct result of the apostasy of the modern church. All truth is based on your "interpretation" of some extra biblical writing and some extant manuscript that you think is the way the bible "should" be worded.

I know quite a bit about the early manuscripts, having studied the topic a great deal. I know that the KJV agrees with 99% of existing manuscript evidence. I don't need to worry about the 1%, although many new bibles today are translated based on that 1% and are therefore, in the minority and are in error.


Why was eternal torment a minority school of thought at the time? Have you ever researched the topic to any degree? Unless you have you're in no position to say 'of course there is'.

Why in the world would I waste my time researching schools of thought on the matter? Why would I have reason to doubt what the bible says? I understand the temptation to do so, as I don't particularly like what I read there either, and I wish it wasn't so. But I am not going to go fishing for some "alternate meaning" to something so plainly taught just because I find it uncomfortable.

THat is what most people do. They find something they don't like in the bible, then find an excuse to erase that passage from their bible, or at least change the words a bit to say what they think it ought to say. Nobody benefits from that and it leads to heresy and eventually apostasy, which is what we have in the modern church.


Perhaps you can explain how death and hades are thrown into the lake of fire as well?

Sure thing. When a lost person dies, they go to hell, which is a prison, or holding ground for those who die without Christ. At the end of the millenium, the dead in hell will be resurrected in bodily form and will stand before the great white throne of God for judgment. Those whose names are not found written in the Book of Life will be thrown into the Lake of Fire at that point and eventually hell itself, which is a giant prison in the center of the earth, will also be thrown into the Lake of Fire.

The lake of fire is not in hell, and is not the same as hell. This is pretty simple stuff. Allow me to give it to you in chronological order using Scripture:


All people are appointed to a day of judgement:
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

The church will be raptured out prior to the Great Tribulation/ The church is told it will be kept from the "hour that is to come":

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Rev_3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Then there will be the great tribulation, which will last 7 years. At the end of that, those tribulation saints will be raptured/resurrected:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


The millenium begins, and the devil is bound in the bottomless pit (not the lake of fire) for the whole thousand years and at the end is released one last time:

Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled:


The unsaved dead, remain in hell for the full thousand years of the millenium:

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

After the thousand years, the devil is loosed and the final war takes place:

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

It is at this point that the devil is cast into the lake of fire:

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

notice the "beast and false prophet" are already there. They were cast into the lake of fire after the 7 year tribulation as we see in this verse:

Rev_19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

At this point the rest of the dead are raised to stand before God and be judged "according to their works", which is how all unsaved people will be judged:

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

These are all found to be guilty of being law breakers and are sentenced to the lake of fire, and at this point, hell is empty and it too is cast into the lake of fire with death:


Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

If you notice the order of events, the lake of fire appears at the end of God's prophetic program, not at the beginning or middle. This is easy if we simply believe what we read.


It would only explain why I don't believe in a cruel and capricious God choleric. The fact that you may equate that with 'not believing the bible' only goes to serve what you know or don't know about the above....

Why would I replace God's word with my opinion or fanciful imagination? That is foolish and only an arrogant person would attempt such a thing.


So....if someone were to read the bible sans Paul it would be effectively useless? :AMR:

No, but you would be like those who reject Paul...you would be attempting to get to heaven by being "good enough" instead of obeying Romans 10:3.


As far as I recall the gospel = 'good news'. Or is that too basic?

Far too basic. What is the good news? Is it that a man named Jesus came to earth to tell you about God (which is what those who deny the deity of Christ teach). Is it to tell you that you can work for your own salvation? (which is what those that teach salvation by works teach and is what those that reject Paul teach).

You have to allow the Scripture to define what the good news is.


It's quite bemusing that Paul himself never once makes mention of 'hell' then isn't it, considering what you believe it to be? What, wasn't it important enough or something?

He did.

2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Php 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

Aside from that, Jesus mentioned hell quite plainly and thoroughly. You can only deny hell if you deny a large portion of your bible:

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

I could list dozens of verses where Jesus spoke of hell. This is pretty simple stuff. And attempting to explain it away by claiming somebody didn't believe Jesus' words 1900 years ago doesn't change anything at all. People haven't believed the bible for 4000 years, there is nothing new under the sun.


Well it wouldn't catch on if it was....:Plain:

By God's eternal wisdom, His message has caught on quite well I would say.


So telling everyone else that if they don't believe the 'basics' as yourself they're wrong is simply 'repeating what you've read is it'?

Yes, "ye are saved by grace though faith and that not of yourselves, not of works lest any man should boast" is pretty easy to understand and repeat. As is "And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. " Rom 11:6

You either believe it and get saved, or deny Pauls apostleship and get to work. But that will end you in the lake of fire.


As before, Paul never mentioned 'hell' the once in his ministry, so why was that considering the magnitude of such according to you?

Paul did and so did the Creator of the Universe and our Savior Jesus Christ. I am not sure what point you are trying to make?


:liberals:

You said you werent interested in marking others. You are essentially admitting to refusing to obey a command of Scripture. I guess you excuse yourself from such activity on the account that "Paul must have been having a bad day". It is ok if you don't feel it is your calling, but don't argue with those of us who obey.


Er, nope. I'm just opposed to using inflammatory insults and dialogue as conversation - unless I'm dealing with an obvious troll. Anything wrong with that?

Again, if you want to stand for nothing, that is fine with me, but don't take issue because I obey a direct command in an attempt to help others. Hell is a real place where real people go for a real eternity. Jesus said so, you can choose to ignore Him, but it isn't very wise...:Plain::nono:


Yeah, ok, I'll give you that one....:chuckle:

:first:

Choleric
October 8th, 2012, 02:28 PM
Much of what you believe is interpretation. You have no guarantee what you teach isn't "another gospel".

Sure I do, I have the bible that clearly teaches that Jesus is God, that Paul's apostleship was genuine and that salvation is a free gift.

Please pick one if you would like clarification from Scripture.

Nick M
October 8th, 2012, 02:31 PM
Great. The reintroduction of the ego driven pompous "anyone who doesn't agree with my theology" is a heretic bunk...

:yawn:

Yet you needed to comment on it.

Arthur Brain
October 8th, 2012, 05:06 PM
Yes, the bible is at odds with many, that is why they are called heretics. I dedicate a thread to it as to warn others by "marking" those who teach error. I wish I would have had this list when I first joined this forum. I didn't know there were so many heresies in the world. I had quite a few long, frustrating conversations with people, only to learn days later that they were teaching false doctrine. Had I had this list, I would have been able to avoid that.

Which again, is just a convoluted way of saying that anyone who doesn't believe in your interpretation of the bible(s) is a heretic.


It is not intended to invite any dischord, it is intended to mark heretics as a warning to others who may be harmed by their false teaching.

Which again = the above.


SD stands for truth, which is not pliable and is easily discernible by reading and believing the bible, which the Laodecian church has great trouble with.

:rotfl:

You have got to be kidding?! Have you seen her sig for cryin' out loud? She blatantly lies about people in it and is generally regarded here as off the planet from all 'sides'. She consistently delects away from answering direct questions, supports 'burning prostitutes alive' and generally acts like a completel troll. She stands for 'truth' in the same way the KKK stand for racial equality. Get a grip...


This statement is a direct result of the apostasy of the modern church. All truth is based on your "interpretation" of some extra biblical writing and some extant manuscript that you think is the way the bible "should" be worded.

Eh? I'm asking you what you know about the original translations not some extra biblical texts....


I know quite a bit about the early manuscripts, having studied the topic a great deal. I know that the KJV agrees with 99% of existing manuscript evidence. I don't need to worry about the 1%, although many new bibles today are translated based on that 1% and are therefore, in the minority and are in error.

Where are you getting this notion that the KJV is the most 'inerrant' form of the bible exactly? Cite? Why is that any more accurate than a literal concordance such as 'Young's'?


Why in the world would I waste my time researching schools of thought on the matter? Why would I have reason to doubt what the bible says? I understand the temptation to do so, as I don't particularly like what I read there either, and I wish it wasn't so. But I am not going to go fishing for some "alternate meaning" to something so plainly taught just because I find it uncomfortable.

Uh, these were the original translators of the original texts which inform the bible, and 'eternal torment' was very much the minority viewpoint. If you can't be bothered to do proper research into the matter of how such doctrines came about then you're in no position to offer any criticism of such frankly.


THat is what most people do. They find something they don't like in the bible, then find an excuse to erase that passage from their bible, or at least change the words a bit to say what they think it ought to say. Nobody benefits from that and it leads to heresy and eventually apostasy, which is what we have in the modern church.

As ^


Sure thing. When a lost person dies, they go to hell, which is a prison, or holding ground for those who die without Christ. At the end of the millenium, the dead in hell will be resurrected in bodily form and will stand before the great white throne of God for judgment. Those whose names are not found written in the Book of Life will be thrown into the Lake of Fire at that point and eventually hell itself, which is a giant prison in the center of the earth, will also be thrown into the Lake of Fire.

Where are you getting this concept that hell is in the centre of the earth?! Cite? :AMR:


The lake of fire is not in hell, and is not the same as hell. This is pretty simple stuff. Allow me to give it to you in chronological order using Scripture:

Considering I never said they were the same or that the lake of fire was somehow in hell I'm not sure why you're even bringing that up....:liberals:




All people are appointed to a day of judgement:
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

The church will be raptured out prior to the Great Tribulation/ The church is told it will be kept from the "hour that is to come":

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Rev_3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Then there will be the great tribulation, which will last 7 years. At the end of that, those tribulation saints will be raptured/resurrected:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


The millenium begins, and the devil is bound in the bottomless pit (not the lake of fire) for the whole thousand years and at the end is released one last time:

Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled:


The unsaved dead, remain in hell for the full thousand years of the millenium:

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

After the thousand years, the devil is loosed and the final war takes place:

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

It is at this point that the devil is cast into the lake of fire:

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

notice the "beast and false prophet" are already there. They were cast into the lake of fire after the 7 year tribulation as we see in this verse:

Rev_19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

At this point the rest of the dead are raised to stand before God and be judged "according to their works", which is how all unsaved people will be judged:

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

These are all found to be guilty of being law breakers and are sentenced to the lake of fire, and at this point, hell is empty and it too is cast into the lake of fire with death:


Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

If you notice the order of events, the lake of fire appears at the end of God's prophetic program, not at the beginning or middle. This is easy if we simply believe what we read.

'Simply believe what we read'? So I guess you find nothing allegorical about any of the above then?


Why would I replace God's word with my opinion or fanciful imagination? That is foolish and only an arrogant person would attempt such a thing.

Almost as arrogant as claiming those who ascribe to a different belief to your own are being 'arrogant and fanciful'....:rolleyes:


No, but you would be like those who reject Paul...you would be attempting to get to heaven by being "good enough" instead of obeying Romans 10:3.

That's garbage. My former church didn't place such emphasis on Paul and it didn't teach you had to be 'good enough' via works or some such either.


Far too basic. What is the good news? Is it that a man named Jesus came to earth to tell you about God (which is what those who deny the deity of Christ teach). Is it to tell you that you can work for your own salvation? (which is what those that teach salvation by works teach and is what those that reject Paul teach).

Funny how you don't like complication where it comes to proper research and understanding and yet 'good news' is something altogether different.


You have to allow the Scripture to define what the good news is.

Well in your case it pretty amounts to 'you're all hellbound but the good news is there's a way out'. :Plain:


He did.

2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Php 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

Aside from that, Jesus mentioned hell quite plainly and thoroughly. You can only deny hell if you deny a large portion of your bible:

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

I could list dozens of verses where Jesus spoke of hell. This is pretty simple stuff. And attempting to explain it away by claiming somebody didn't believe Jesus' words 1900 years ago doesn't change anything at all. People haven't believed the bible for 4000 years, there is nothing new under the sun.

Again, if you've not researched the original texts and translations regarding 'hell' and 'eternal' in any objective manner etc then you're just not interested in intellectual honesty on the matter. You are familiar with hades, sheol, gehenna, tartarus right? And as before, Paul does not make make express mention of 'hell' in his own words anywhere.


By God's eternal wisdom, His message has caught on quite well I would say.

Ok....


Yes, "ye are saved by grace though faith and that not of yourselves, not of works lest any man should boast" is pretty easy to understand and repeat. As is "And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. " Rom 11:6

You either believe it and get saved, or deny Pauls apostleship and get to work. But that will end you in the lake of fire.

Not sure where even this consigns someone to your eternal torment. If altruistic works send folk to it then aye, that makes sense....:Plain: I reckon an omnipotent loving God would take the failities of His human creations into account.


Paul did and so did the Creator of the Universe and our Savior Jesus Christ. I am not sure what point you are trying to make?

Um, nope, and my points have been reiterated earlier. If you consider hell to be some 'prison cell' in the centre of the earth and lake of fire to be a literal burning lake then in regards to the former: :AMR: and in regards to the latter you're obviously not very familiar with allegory....



You said you werent interested in marking others. You are essentially admitting to refusing to obey a command of Scripture. I guess you excuse yourself from such activity on the account that "Paul must have been having a bad day". It is ok if you don't feel it is your calling, but don't argue with those of us who obey.

Eh, if it was Jim Jones or David Koresh I'd have no problem with calling them on out on their insanity. Compiling a list of people who have differing takes on theology on an internet forum? Aye, soooooo effective. You just do more damage to anyone looking in so well done....:Plain:


Again, if you want to stand for nothing, that is fine with me, but don't take issue because I obey a direct command in an attempt to help others. Hell is a real place where real people go for a real eternity. Jesus said so, you can choose to ignore Him, but it isn't very wise...:Plain::nono:

I stand for plenty thanks, and what I ignore is blinkered fundamentalist doctrine. Ironically you're even going against yourself if you think 'the holding cell in the centre of the earth' lasts for ever....:doh:


:first:

You can't same the same about Scrabble though....:D

Arthur Brain
October 8th, 2012, 05:20 PM
Yet you needed to comment on it.

Apparently in the same way you apparently 'needed' to comment on my own post.

Irony isn't in your vocab is it Nick?

:rolleyes:

Choleric
October 8th, 2012, 06:48 PM
Which again, is just a convoluted way of saying that anyone who doesn't believe in your interpretation of the bible(s) is a heretic.

Not convoluted at all. Just pretty straightforward. If you disagree with me on the three specific topics the list covers, then you are a heretic. That is easily defended by Scripture. Unless you want to tell me you don't think Jesus is God. Or that you have to earn heaven, or that Paul's 13 letters don't belong in the bible. Of course, you can't prove any of those things using the bible. It is impossible.


Which again = the above.

Fair enough and guilty as charged...


Eh? I'm asking you what you know about the original translations not some extra biblical texts....

What about them? Are you going to produce a bible translation that eliminates all mention of hell? What are you attempting to say? Just cough it up already...


Where are you getting this notion that the KJV is the most 'inerrant' form of the bible exactly? Cite? Why is that any more accurate than a literal concordance such as 'Young's'?

Let's not derail the topic at hand, but suffice it to say I believe the KJV is superior to any bible on earth.

But that being said, you cannot produce a single bible translation in any language that eliminates hell.


Uh, these were the original translators of the original texts which inform the bible, and 'eternal torment' was very much the minority viewpoint. If you can't be bothered to do proper research into the matter of how such doctrines came about then you're in no position to offer any criticism of such frankly.

Again, why would I care what viewpoint some old person held? I am perfectly capable, and personally responsible, for reading and understanding the bible for myself. And in doing so, it is abundantly clear that hell is real, as is the lake of fire and real people go there for all eternity if they are not saved.


As ^

What is that supposed to mean. I show you clear scripture that speak of hell and eternal torment and you are attempting to do away with it on conjecture and "old people's opinions". Why not use the bible and tell me Jesus was lying or that He misspoke or that eternal doesn't mean eternal. Good luck with that :thumb:


Where are you getting this concept that hell is in the centre of the earth?! Cite? :AMR:

Have you ever read the bible? I could fill pages. Allow me to cite some passages and give a brief explanation:

Mat 11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

Hell is down

Luk 10:15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.

Hell is down. Notice the juxtaposition against "exalted to heaven". The opposite of up, is down, up to heaven, down to hell

Mat_12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Jesus went to paradise, in the heart of the earth after He died. The heart is the center

Isaiah 5:14
“Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.”

Hell is a place people descend into. It is also interesting to note that scientist have noted that the cavity in the center of the earth is expanding, as this passage tells us Hell has enlarged herself. Standing room only I guess...

Ezekiel 31:16
“I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit…”


Again descend

Job 28:5 says, “As for the earth, out of it cometh bread: and UNDER IT IS TURNED UP AS IT WERE FIRE.”

Need commentary on this one? Under the earth there is fire and that fire is hell.


(Proverb 7:27) "Her house is the way to hell (Sheol), going down to the chambers of death."

(Isaiah 14:15) "Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell (Sheol), to the sides of the pit."

(Deuteronomy 32:22, "For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell (Sheol), and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains."

all talking about downward

Isaiah 38:18 "For the grave cannot praise thee, death cannot celebrate thee: they that go down into the Pit cannot hope for thy truth.

Isa_14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Notice it is down to hell, also called a pit:

Eze_31:14 To the end that none of all the trees by the waters exalt themselves for their height, neither shoot up their top among the thick boughs, neither their trees stand up in their height, all that drink water: for they are all delivered unto death, to the nether parts of the earth, in the midst of the children of men, with them that go down to the pit.

Eze_26:20 When I shall bring thee down with them that descend into the pit, with the people of old time, and shall set thee in the low parts of the earth, in places desolate of old, with them that go down to the pit, that thou be not inhabited; and I shall set glory in the land of the living;

The pit is hell, it is down, it is in the lower parts of the earth, it is in the nether parts of the earth. I could go on and on and on and on. This is very simple if you believe what you read.


Considering I never said they were the same or that the lake of fire was somehow in hell I'm not sure why you're even bringing that up....:liberals:

It appeared you were attempting to prove hell was allegorical by implying the impossibility of hell being thrown into itself. Realizing hell and the lake of fire are in different places clears up the matter. Why else did you ask me to explain it?


'Simply believe what we read'? So I guess you find nothing allegorical about any of the above then?

None whatsoever. I take the bible literally unless it is absolutely impossible to do so. Allegory is vastly over used when reading Scripture, it is far more literal than you realize. Allow me to post a couple verses that beat scientific discovery based on the literal application of seemingly innocuous passages:

Jet Streams: The Bible describes the circulation of the atmosphere.

Ecc 1:6 The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits.


The Bible includes some principles of fluid dynamics.

Job 28:25 To make the weight for the winds; and he weigheth the waters by measure.

The fact that air has weight was proven scientifically only about 300 years ago.

Hydrothermal vents were described in Job long before science ever found them out.

Job 38:16 Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?

The fact that the earth is round was shown in Isaiah:

Isa 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth,

There is far more, but this will suffice. The point is the bible is literal almost all of the time and I suggest even more so than the most conservative of us believe.


Almost as arrogant as claiming those who ascribe to a different belief to your own are being 'arrogant and fanciful'....:rolleyes:

No, to set aside what the bible clearly says in favor of something outside of the bible is arrogant. Jesus said to fear Him who can throw both body and soul into hell. It is very, very arrogant to think you know better than Jesus.



That's garbage. My former church didn't place such emphasis on Paul and it didn't teach you had to be 'good enough' via works or some such either.

Your church may not have emphasised, but they did not exclude Romans through Philemon. Those who think Paul is a heretic, believe that Romans through Philemon should not be in the bible. Don't you understand that? That is a serious accusation.


Funny how you don't like complication where it comes to proper research and understanding and yet 'good news' is something altogether different.

Nope, 100% consistent. I rely 100% on the bible. I don't put my bible down and pick up some old dudes writing and then give that equal weight to the Scripture. If Polycarp thought hell was allegorical, he as dead wrong. It doesn't matter if he lived 1900 years ago.

There is no complication there. Hell is real because the bible says so. Jesus is God because the bible says so. Paul was not a heretic because the bible says so. Salvation is a free gift without works because the bible says so. This is very easy.


Well in your case it pretty amounts to 'you're all hellbound but the good news is there's a way out'. :Plain:

Exactly!! :thumb:

Gal_3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.


Again, if you've not researched the original texts and translations regarding 'hell' and 'eternal' in any objective manner etc then you're just not interested in intellectual honesty on the matter. You are familiar with hades, sheol, gehenna, tartarus right? And as before, Paul does not make make express mention of 'hell' in his own words anywhere.

I don't need to do research. Please, pick a topic. Tell me sheol doesn't mean hell, tell me eternal doesn't mean eternal. Please, I am begging you to try to prove either of those with Scripture. You keep hinting around like you have it all figured out, then tell me about it. Stop acting like you "got this" and lay it out there for me.


Not sure where even this consigns someone to your eternal torment. If altruistic works send folk to it then aye, that makes sense....:Plain: I reckon an omnipotent loving God would take the failities of His human creations into account.


THis doesn 't consign someone to torment, it tells you how to avoid it. And good works can't help you, which is also taught clearly in the bible:

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

God saves us based on His free gift of imputed righteousness. It is not based on our attempts at earning it or establishing our own goodness whereby we get to a point where we are good enough to be saved.

Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Many people are ignorant of God's righteousness that He will give (impute) to anyone who comes to Him in faith through His Son. Instead, they try to go around establishing their own righteousness by being good and don't submit themselves to God's righteousness.


Um, nope, and my points have been reiterated earlier. If you consider hell to be some 'prison cell' in the centre of the earth and lake of fire to be a literal burning lake then in regards to the former: :AMR: and in regards to the latter you're obviously not very familiar with allegory....

You have made points but with no substance. You have hinted at "translations" and "study of the terms" but you haven't produced any of it. Scripture clearly demonstrates that people who are lost die and go to hell which is at the center of the earth where they await judgment which all men face according to Heb 9:27. Scripture also clearly teaches that at the end of the millennium the second resurrection occurs and all those stand before God to be judged by their works and are cast into a lake of fire for all eternity.

There is no allegory there. The bible is full of this teaching from beginning to end. You would have to eliminate quite a bit of your bible to believe such a lie. And make no mistake, it is a lie from the father of lies..."hath God said?" It is the oldest lie in the book, LITERALLY.


Eh, if it was Jim Jones or David Koresh I'd have no problem with calling them on out on their insanity. Compiling a list of people who have differing takes on theology on an internet forum? Aye, soooooo effective. You just do more damage to anyone looking in so well done....:Plain:

I remember when I first came here in 2007, my first lengthy conversation was with GLENDA. She was nice at first and then started challenging me on my salvation based on the free gift of God. As a new believer at the time (days in fact) it was very troublesome to me for the few weeks that we started the conversation. I began to struggle with doubt etc. It was after a couple weeks of the conversation that I realized she completely eliminated all the teaching from Romans to Philemon and I was therefore arguing with someone who had half a new testament.

Interestingly she never offered that information for a long time into our conversation. Had I realized her error from the beginning, I would not have had that issue and could have avoided all the heartache at the start.

That is exactly the kind of thing I am trying to help others avoid. And it is exactly the reason Paul told us to mark heretics, to protect others from wolves in sheeps clothing.


I stand for plenty thanks, and what I ignore is blinkered fundamentalist doctrine. Ironically you're even going against yourself if you think 'the holding cell in the centre of the earth' lasts for ever....:doh:

I never said the holding cell lasts forever. God is going to create a new heaven and a new earth. It is also at the end of the millenium when all lost, hell and death are cast into the lake of fire. The new earth will not have a hell.


You can't same the same about Scrabble though....:D

I like puzzles to give myself some idle time. Sudoku is challenging in a bothersome way. I want to relax. Give me a word find ;)

Pierac
October 8th, 2012, 07:14 PM
A while back I messaged Choleric about adding you under my catagory, and even modifying the catagory title, expanding it a bit, since I'm very 'eclectic',...but no response.

It appears hes more interested in the main 'heresies' he deems most important, while we more liberal spiritualists and gnostics of various temperments, and kind of 'low' on the radar screen. I have just enough dangerous knowledge to implicate modern forms of 'Christianity' with a versatility in many other religious philosophies and schools to have apparently earned a place on the list.

To some I'm the resident 'New Ager', 'Universal Mystic'...being a student of universal spirituality, eclectic spiritualist, meta-theist, esotericist, meta-physician, etc. Also the resident 'dharmist' as a very liberal 'hindu' with philosophical roots in the Advaita Vedanta (http://indianphilosophy.50webs.com/advaita.htm) school...but conversant with all schools of 'non-dualism' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nondualism). The fundamental reality is what is at the base or root of all existence, discovered and realized by the great rishis/sages (realized ones). They discovered the true God-essence in their own hearts...as being non-different from the Universal God-presence, but individualized within.

'God' as absolute reality outshines/transcends any concept or image of a so-called 'Satan' or the 'devil', and 'heresy' is the rightful privilege of a truly responsible person freely choosing to do their own 'thinking' in discerning what is 'real' from what is 'unreal' (right discrimination). This continual vigilence and 'questioning' everything...continues moment to moment.

In-joy,


pj

Sorry Freelight,

But Cholerics' pastor does not speak about liberal spiritualists on Sunday... so he has no way of offering a response either for or against you.... so you kinda get ignored due to his lack of intellectual understanding of your post. ;)

It should be obvious to all that Choleric can only repeat what he hears and thus creates list to compensate for his lack of intellect! :rolleyes:

If your on the list... it's because his pastor told him you belong there, nothing more or less in his response! :doh:

The weak minded feel the need to create list so they can feel better about dismissing what they can not intellectually debate! Tambora is very much like this! :readthis:

It's not Choleric's or Tambora's fault... So we should not boast in their limitations but be thankful we were given much much more! Here's to you Choleric for your list! :first: Thank you for making the rest of us look so GOOD!

Peace,
Paul

Arthur Brain
October 8th, 2012, 08:09 PM
Not convoluted at all. Just pretty straightforward. If you disagree with me on the three specific topics the list covers, then you are a heretic. That is easily defended by Scripture. Unless you want to tell me you don't think Jesus is God. Or that you have to earn heaven, or that Paul's 13 letters don't belong in the bible. Of course, you can't prove any of those things using the bible. It is impossible.

Well, I don't necessarily disagree with you on any of them. I can understand why others see it differently as well however.


Fair enough and guilty as charged...

Ok, good for you.


What about them? Are you going to produce a bible translation that eliminates all mention of hell? What are you attempting to say? Just cough it up already...

Nope, rather the interpretation of what 'hell' actually is. You must surely be familiar with how it's referred to as the grave? Well guess what, everyone 'visits' the place.


Let's not derail the topic at hand, but suffice it to say I believe the KJV is superior to any bible on earth.

Why? Based on what?


But that being said, you cannot produce a single bible translation in any language that eliminates hell.

Which was never my intention to start with.


Again, why would I care what viewpoint some old person held? I am perfectly capable, and personally responsible, for reading and understanding the bible for myself. And in doing so, it is abundantly clear that hell is real, as is the lake of fire and real people go there for all eternity if they are not saved.

'Some old person'? The early church translators and schools in general didn't hold with eternal torment being taught in the texts. It's no secret. Yet you just go with a literal reading of the KJV and take it as verbatim? :Plain:


What is that supposed to mean. I show you clear scripture that speak of hell and eternal torment and you are attempting to do away with it on conjecture and "old people's opinions". Why not use the bible and tell me Jesus was lying or that He misspoke or that eternal doesn't mean eternal. Good luck with that :thumb:

Grief choleric, I could point to several verses in the bible that point to God restoring all and what would that do? It's not the first time I've been involved in this area of debate and if you're not willing to even research how the original texts were translated and how such a doctrine of eternal torment even came about then what's the point? I don't hold with annihilationism but there's more support for that than your own position.....


Have you ever read the bible? I could fill pages. Allow me to cite some passages and give a brief explanation:

Mat 11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

Hell is down

Luk 10:15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.

Hell is down. Notice the juxtaposition against "exalted to heaven". The opposite of up, is down, up to heaven, down to hell

Mat_12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Jesus went to paradise, in the heart of the earth after He died. The heart is the center

Isaiah 5:14
“Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.”

Hell is a place people descend into. It is also interesting to note that scientist have noted that the cavity in the center of the earth is expanding, as this passage tells us Hell has enlarged herself. Standing room only I guess...

Ezekiel 31:16
“I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit…”


Again descend

Job 28:5 says, “As for the earth, out of it cometh bread: and UNDER IT IS TURNED UP AS IT WERE FIRE.”

Need commentary on this one? Under the earth there is fire and that fire is hell.


(Proverb 7:27) "Her house is the way to hell (Sheol), going down to the chambers of death."

(Isaiah 14:15) "Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell (Sheol), to the sides of the pit."

(Deuteronomy 32:22, "For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell (Sheol), and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains."

all talking about downward

Isaiah 38:18 "For the grave cannot praise thee, death cannot celebrate thee: they that go down into the Pit cannot hope for thy truth.

Isa_14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Notice it is down to hell, also called a pit:

Eze_31:14 To the end that none of all the trees by the waters exalt themselves for their height, neither shoot up their top among the thick boughs, neither their trees stand up in their height, all that drink water: for they are all delivered unto death, to the nether parts of the earth, in the midst of the children of men, with them that go down to the pit.

Eze_26:20 When I shall bring thee down with them that descend into the pit, with the people of old time, and shall set thee in the low parts of the earth, in places desolate of old, with them that go down to the pit, that thou be not inhabited; and I shall set glory in the land of the living;

The pit is hell, it is down, it is in the lower parts of the earth, it is in the nether parts of the earth. I could go on and on and on and on. This is very simple if you believe what you read.

Once again you have a real difficulty with allegory. If you seriously think that that the core of earth is hell then most here would call you deluded, even those that believe in a similar doctrine on hell. Jesus 'descended' into 'hell' if you recall?


It appeared you were attempting to prove hell was allegorical by implying the impossibility of hell being thrown into itself. Realizing hell and the lake of fire are in different places clears up the matter. Why else did you ask me to explain it?

Noooo, I never implied any such thing. I commented on the allegory of 'death' and 'hell' being somehow cast into the lake of fire. 'Death' is not 'dead physical people' choleric. It's the last 'enemy' to be destroyed, so no metaphor there then. :Plain:


None whatsoever. I take the bible literally unless it is absolutely impossible to do so. Allegory is vastly over used when reading Scripture, it is far more literal than you realize. Allow me to post a couple verses that beat scientific discovery based on the literal application of seemingly innocuous passages:

Right, so I guess you're a YEC as well then?



Jet Streams: The Bible describes the circulation of the atmosphere.

Ecc 1:6 The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits.


The Bible includes some principles of fluid dynamics.

Job 28:25 To make the weight for the winds; and he weigheth the waters by measure.

The fact that air has weight was proven scientifically only about 300 years ago.

Hydrothermal vents were described in Job long before science ever found them out.

Job 38:16 Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?

The fact that the earth is round was shown in Isaiah:

Isa 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth,

There is far more, but this will suffice. The point is the bible is literal almost all of the time and I suggest even more so than the most conservative of us believe.

Uh, right, your opinion and nothing more. Literalism and blind fundamentalism often go hand in hand.....


No, to set aside what the bible clearly says in favor of something outside of the bible is arrogant. Jesus said to fear Him who can throw both body and soul into hell. It is very, very arrogant to think you know better than Jesus.

Yeh, because even those who think it's a place of torment are all inabsolute agreement on just what that is aren't they? You just read hell to be a place of literal burning torment and stuff anything that causes you to question whether you're right or not. A conscience and empathy towards your fellow frail beings should give you pasue for thought on that but you just stick with your dogma.


Your church may not have emphasised, but they did not exclude Romans through Philemon. Those who think Paul is a heretic, believe that Romans through Philemon should not be in the bible. Don't you understand that? That is a serious accusation.

They didn't exclude Paul at all, nor did they make a big deal of it, call him a heretic or teach works etc.


Nope, 100% consistent. I rely 100% on the bible. I don't put my bible down and pick up some old dudes writing and then give that equal weight to the Scripture. If Polycarp thought hell was allegorical, he as dead wrong. It doesn't matter if he lived 1900 years ago.

Which just goes to show your intellectual 'honesty' on the matter. You're in no position to say there's no allegory regarding 'hell' simply because you're reluctant to question the dogma or your own rigidly literal interpretation of a specific translation of the bible.


There is no complication there. Hell is real because the bible says so. Jesus is God because the bible says so. Paul was not a heretic because the bible says so. Salvation is a free gift without works because the bible says so. This is very easy.

Nobody said hell wasn't real dude if you'd been reading along....tell me, is there anything in Revelation you read as allegory?


Exactly!! :thumb:

Gal_3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Ya know - 'good news' is just that.


I don't need to do research. Please, pick a topic. Tell me sheol doesn't mean hell, tell me eternal doesn't mean eternal. Please, I am begging you to try to prove either of those with Scripture. You keep hinting around like you have it all figured out, then tell me about it. Stop acting like you "got this" and lay it out there for me.

Yeah, you do if you're going to be honest on the matter. It won't take you long to see how the early church formed and how the texts were translated. It's not about disproving 'hell' which you really should be aware of by now as mentioned earlier. It's ironic that you want others to do that which you should already have at your disposal to accuse them of innacuracy.


THis doesn 't consign someone to torment, it tells you how to avoid it. And good works can't help you, which is also taught clearly in the bible:
Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

So you had no say in your salvation then right? After all, isn't your choice to repent and believe a 'work' of your own?


God saves us based on His free gift of imputed righteousness. It is not based on our attempts at earning it or establishing our own goodness whereby we get to a point where we are good enough to be saved.

And? The bible seems to make it pretty clear that caring for others should inform part of life even it isn't part of faith in itself. Remember that stuff said to 'believers' about clothing the needy, feeding the hungry etc?


Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Many people are ignorant of God's righteousness that He will give (impute) to anyone who comes to Him in faith through His Son. Instead, they try to go around establishing their own righteousness by being good and don't submit themselves to God's righteousness.

Well darn that 'good samaritan' then. He must have just been doing that to 'curry favour' with God. :rolleyes: If altruism is somehow submitting to something other than God's righteousness then hey....



You have made points but with no substance. You have hinted at "translations" and "study of the terms" but you haven't produced any of it. Scripture clearly demonstrates that people who are lost die and go to hell which is at the center of the earth where they await judgment which all men face according to Heb 9:27. Scripture also clearly teaches that at the end of the millennium the second resurrection occurs and all those stand before God to be judged by their works and are cast into a lake of fire for all eternity.

What's at the centre of the earth is the earth's core. Seriously, you are just whacked out on this and carry on believing as you will. It's pointless to argue with this type of delusion....


There is no allegory there. The bible is full of this teaching from beginning to end. You would have to eliminate quite a bit of your bible to believe such a lie. And make no mistake, it is a lie from the father of lies..."hath God said?" It is the oldest lie in the book, LITERALLY.

Yeah, ok choleric. Have at it with your belief. The only good thing I noticed about this post is that you didn't bother to defend SD's antics this time around. You thought she stood for 'truth' remember? Now you know otherwise (or at least I hope you do)



I remember when I first came here in 2007, my first lengthy conversation was with GLENDA. She was nice at first and then started challenging me on my salvation based on the free gift of God. As a new believer at the time (days in fact) it was very troublesome to me for the few weeks that we started the conversation. I began to struggle with doubt etc. It was after a couple weeks of the conversation that I realized she completely eliminated all the teaching from Romans to Philemon and I was therefore arguing with someone who had half a new testament.

Interestingly she never offered that information for a long time into our conversation. Had I realized her error from the beginning, I would not have had that issue and could have avoided all the heartache at the start.

Glenda, nice woman and it's not her fault you underwent such difficulty. I get the sense that you've only started this type of thread out of personal reasons as much as anything else.


That is exactly the kind of thing I am trying to help others avoid. And it is exactly the reason Paul told us to mark heretics, to protect others from wolves in sheeps clothing.

Eh, this is a debate forum as you well know. All you do is incite heated opposition but you likely know that as well.


I never said the holding cell lasts forever. God is going to create a new heaven and a new earth. It is also at the end of the millenium when all lost, hell and death are cast into the lake of fire. The new earth will not have a hell.

Well, yes you did but then believing that the core of the earth is hell is so bizarre it's something else anyway....


I like puzzles to give myself some idle time. Sudoku is challenging in a bothersome way. I want to relax. Give me a word find ;)

I think ludo might be a better option then....;)

Choleric
October 8th, 2012, 09:38 PM
Well, I don't necessarily disagree with you on any of them. I can understand why others see it differently as well however.

You may be able to understand it, but only one of us is right, either them or me. The other one is going to go to hell. This is not "hmmm I really like red, but I can see why blue would be your favorite, lets hold hands and sing".

I can understand how someone would believe a lie, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't stand for truth.


Nope, rather the interpretation of what 'hell' actually is. You must surely be familiar with how it's referred to as the grave? Well guess what, everyone 'visits' the place.

I am familiar with some really bad eisegesis on the subject. I would greatly appreciate you just telling me what you believe using Scripture instead of continually hinting around about it. I posted dozens of Scripture which you flat out deny. I would appreciate you doing more than saying "uh-uh". Try Scripture and plain reason.


Why? Based on what?

Internal evidence, but that is for another thread.


Which was never my intention to start with.

Is it your intention to dance around the subject like this is an M Knight Shamalan film? Are you purposely dragging on the conclusion of the mystery until the end? The entertainment value is diminishing, please press fast forward and get to it. (end film analogy ;))


'Some old person'? The early church translators and schools in general didn't hold with eternal torment being taught in the texts. It's no secret. Yet you just go with a literal reading of the KJV and take it as verbatim? :Plain:


Yes, imagine that, I read and believe the bible. Good grief man, listen to yourself! You are questioning my reasoning because I believe the bible for crying out loud! There is no book on earth more reliable than the bible.



Grief choleric, I could point to several verses in the bible that point to God restoring all and what would that do? It's not the first time I've been involved in this area of debate and if you're not willing to even research how the original texts were translated and how such a doctrine of eternal torment even came about then what's the point? I don't hold with annihilationism but there's more support for that than your own position.....

Please, for the love of God, post SOME Scripture, anything. You keep talking like I'm crazy and you have all this knowledge that you are about to drop like Hiroshima, and yet you haven't posted a single Scripture to support any position you attempt to hold. Pick a verse, post it and explain how your interpretation is correct.


Once again you have a real difficulty with allegory. If you seriously think that that the core of earth is hell then most here would call you deluded, even those that believe in a similar doctrine on hell.

AB, there are nearly a hundred verses that speak of hell being down, we have verses where the earth opens up and swallows people and they go down, down to the pit, down into hell. This is so simple, why would you deny it? What purpose do you have in denying what the bible says about hell being in the heart of the earth?


Jesus 'descended' into 'hell' if you recall?

Yes, and that is also not allegory. The saints before CHrist went into hell into Abrahams bosom. When Christ died, He went into hell to "lead captivity captive" and take those OT saints to heaven.

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Remember, no person was saved until Christ died. Remember the story of the rich man and lazarus. The rich man "lifted his eyes in torments and saw Lazarus afar off". Luke 16:23-25 Both the saved and lost went to the heart of the earth before the Cross, but the saved were in "Paradise" and the lost in torments. Christ went down and brought those OT saints with Him out of hell into glory. That is why even though Christ was going down, he told the thief on the cross, "this day thou shalt be with me in paradise." They both went down before they went up. Not allegory. Jesus said he would go to the heart of the earth, and He did. Matt 12:40

Look at these verses together and see how they harmonize and make perfect sense. Remember, the bible is it's own best interpreter:

Eze_31:14 To the end that none of all the trees by the waters exalt themselves for their height, neither shoot up their top among the thick boughs, neither their trees stand up in their height, all that drink water: for they are all delivered unto death, to the nether parts of the earth, in the midst of the children of men, with them that go down to the pit.

Eze_26:20 When I shall bring thee down with them that descend into the pit, with the people of old time, and shall set thee in the low parts of the earth, in places desolate of old, with them that go down to the pit, that thou be not inhabited; and I shall set glory in the land of the living;

Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

nether parts of the earth=low parts of the earth=down to the pit=lower parts of the earth=where Jesus descended=where abrahams bosom was=where lazarus could see=hell.

Hell is the pit which is in the nether/low parts of the earth. This is plainly taught if you simply lay aside your allegory.

The bible makes so much more sense if you would simply believe it as it is written.


Noooo, I never implied any such thing. I commented on the allegory of 'death' and 'hell' being somehow cast into the lake of fire. 'Death' is not 'dead physical people' choleric. It's the last 'enemy' to be destroyed, so no metaphor there then. :Plain:

But it is more than metaphor. While death is a state of being and I could see the allegory there, it is referred to in Scripture as more than a state of being:

Rev_20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Apparently, like hell, death is a place that holds dead people. It also has gates:

Job 38:17 Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death?


Right, so I guess you're a YEC as well then?

Not necessarily. While I of course believe the 6 day creation story in genesis was a literal 6 days and happened just as the bible tells us it did, I also believe the Gap theory. So as far as the age of the earth itself, I don't have any idea, neither do scientists.

Don't tell me you are an evolutionist too?


Uh, right, your opinion and nothing more. Literalism and blind fundamentalism often go hand in hand.....

Are you implying that the earth is not a circle, or that the sea doesn't have circuits or underwater rivers? Are you implying that there is no such thing as a jet stream? Are you saying that wind doesn't have weight? Or do you take a black marker to those verses and toss up your hands claiming you can't understand them?

I really wish you would stop saying I am wrong and show me how I am. Explain it if you can.


Yeh, because even those who think it's a place of torment are all inabsolute agreement on just what that is aren't they? You just read hell to be a place of literal burning torment and stuff anything that causes you to question whether you're right or not.

AB, you haven't given me anything to stuff. All you have done is tell me I am wrong without making a single logical argument to support your case or to even post a single Scripture with some explanation.


A conscience and empathy towards your fellow frail beings should give you pasue for thought on that but you just stick with your dogma.

Wait a second, do you think I enjoy the concept of hell? Do you really think that it makes me happy to think about people going to hell? I can assure you it brings me no such pleasure. I would not wish hell on my worst enemy.

But I can also assure you that if pause and empathy are what you value, then warning people about being on the broad road is a great deal more compassionate than telling them "everything is going to be alright, just ignore the crazy bible beliver and Jesus who said you had to be Born Again, they are crazy. You will be fine, just try your best"


They didn't exclude Paul at all, nor did they make a big deal of it, call him a heretic or teach works etc.

That was my point. The people on the list exclude Paul. That is heresy.



Which just goes to show your intellectual 'honesty' on the matter. You're in no position to say there's no allegory regarding 'hell' simply because you're reluctant to question the dogma or your own rigidly literal interpretation of a specific translation of the bible.

You keep saying it, SHOW ME THE LIGHT! Please tell me how I am wrong. I am currently believing the bible, allowing the bible to define itself, and be its' own interpreter. If you feel there is more to it than that, you are going to have to do more than allude to it.


Nobody said hell wasn't real dude if you'd been reading along....tell me, is there anything in Revelation you read as allegory?

A little. The mystery babylon is allegory for the rcc and the "city which sitteth on seven hills" is Rome, which is known as the city on seven hills. Perhaps Jesus doesn't have a sword come out of his mouth, but something supernatural happens which allow Him to kill that many people in such a short time. Maybe it was something coming out of His mouth that John could best describe as a sword?


Ya know - 'good news' is just that.

Yep, and you wouldn't have much of it without Paul and if you try to earn it you will never get it.


Yeah, you do if you're going to be honest on the matter. It won't take you long to see how the early church formed and how the texts were translated. It's not about disproving 'hell' which you really should be aware of by now as mentioned earlier. It's ironic that you want others to do that which you should already have at your disposal to accuse them of innacuracy.

What you are attempting to do is tell me that I cannot rely on the bible to define it's own terms, to tell me what hell is and you expect me to rely on some early church writing or understanding on the subject. I see no reason why I should favor anything over the bible.


So you had no say in your salvation then right? After all, isn't your choice to repent and believe a 'work' of your own?

Are you arguing with me or the Scripture? :AMR: Because the passage I showed you clearly says we are not saved by good works. So by that verse, believing is not a good work, otherwise that verse would be wrong, and since we know the bible is not wrong, then believing is not a work.

Unless you want to argue with the bible on that one too?


And? The bible seems to make it pretty clear that caring for others should inform part of life even it isn't part of faith in itself. Remember that stuff said to 'believers' about clothing the needy, feeding the hungry etc?

Yes, we are to be good citizens, good neighbors etc, but we aren't saved by those things. Those are "works of righteousness which we have done" but we are "not save by" them. Remember the verse we just went over? The bible lays it out plain.

We also know that "there is a way which seemeth right unto a man" and that way is works. But is leads to destruction according to Jesus. Any person on earth that we witness to would admit that they think being a good person is what gets them to heaven. That is what Jesus was talking about. There is one way which seems right to a man and that way is works, but that is not the way.

Jesus told us HE is THE WAY. The WAY is not a plan, or being good, THE WAY is a Man, the Messiah, our Savior.


Well darn that 'good samaritan' then. He must have just been doing that to 'curry favour' with God. :rolleyes: If altruism is somehow submitting to something other than God's righteousness then hey....

It's not about whether or not we do it, it is about why we do it. If we do it thinking we are earning something from God which cannot be earned (hence free gift) then we are barking up the wrong tree.


What's at the centre of the earth is the earth's core. Seriously, you are just whacked out on this and carry on believing as you will. It's pointless to argue with this type of delusion....

Ab, you aren't arguing with me, you are arguing with dozens and dozens of verses of scripture that together show you plainly where the pit is, where the nether parts of the earth are, where the low parts of the earth are and where abrahams bosom was, and where hell is and where Christ descended to lead captivity captive. You are replacing the clear teaching of Scripture with your opinion based on zero Scripture and in fact IN SPITE of Scripture.


Yeah, ok choleric. Have at it with your belief. The only good thing I noticed about this post is that you didn't bother to defend SD's antics this time around. You thought she stood for 'truth' remember? Now you know otherwise (or at least I hope you do)

The devils first lie to mankind was to get them to doubt God's word with "hath God said". That is no different than what you are dealing with. God clearly teaches something in Scripture and you are saying "did He REALLY say that, or does it mean something opposite of what it appears to mean?"

Tell me, where is hell then? And do you have any Scripture to support your claim? Where do the unsaved dead go?


Glenda, nice woman and it's not her fault you underwent such difficulty. I get the sense that you've only started this type of thread out of personal reasons as much as anything else.

GLenda is a lost sinner on her way to hell. She is the epitome of Rom 10:3. And it was her intent to mislead me, as she did others or she would have flat out said from the beginning that the doctrine taught in Rom-Philemon was wrong. She didn't and she did that on purpose as she is a wolf in sheeps clothing. That is why her kind are so dangerous and it is why Paul so often warned against such:

Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

2Co 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Glenda and all those who pervert the gospel will be judged according to their works as is clearly taught in Scripture. And she will be found guilty and will be thrown into a lake of fire. I take no pleasure in that fact and I have had many conversations with her about her error, but she simply doesn't believe the bible and for that she will perish. And her false gospel is a danger to those she deceives. I could post 30 more verses with warnings all over the NT. do you believe the warnings are mean spirited?


Eh, this is a debate forum as you well know. All you do is incite heated opposition but you likely know that as well.

Not inciting at all. Again, those on the list do not object to being on it. Glenda does not deny her heresy, and neither do the catholics or Christ deniers. They actually enjoy it and argue over who should be on top. The only people that get upset are people who don't stand for anything and are only worried about everyone getting along. :wave2:


Well, yes you did but then believing that the core of the earth is hell is so bizarre it's something else anyway....


Tell you what, start with the verses I posted on the subject. I posted quite a few that all point to the same conclusion. If I am wrong, explain what the verses do mean. How is the pit in the nether parts of the earth in the low parts of the earth where Abrahams bosom was and where Christ descended to lead captivity captive. DOn't just tell my I am wrong, tell me WHY.


I think ludo might be a better option then....;)

Say what :AMR:

Pierac
October 8th, 2012, 09:58 PM
You may be able to understand it, but only one of us is right, either them or me. The other one is going to go to hell. This is not "hmmm I really like red, but I can see why blue would be your favorite, lets hold hands and sing".

I can understand how someone would believe a lie, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't stand for truth.



I am familiar with some really bad eisegesis on the subject. I would greatly appreciate you just telling me what you believe using Scripture instead of continually hinting around about it. I posted dozens of Scripture which you flat out deny. I would appreciate you doing more than saying "uh-uh". Try Scripture and plain reason.



Internal evidence, but that is for another thread.

.

Is it your intention to dance around the subject like this is an M Knight Shamalan film? Are you purposely dragging on the conclusion of the mystery until the end? The entertainment value is diminishing, please press fast forward and get to it. (end film analogy ;))



Yes, imagine that, I read and believe the bible. Good grief man, listen to yourself! You are questioning my reasoning because I believe the bible for crying out loud! There is no book on earth more reliable than the bible.



Please, for the love of God, post SOME Scripture, anything. You keep talking like I'm crazy and you have all this knowledge that you are about to drop like Hiroshima, and yet you haven't posted a single Scripture to support any position you attempt to hold. Pick a verse, post it and explain how your interpretation is correct.


AB, there are nearly a hundred verses that speak of hell being down, we have verses where the earth opens up and swallows people and they go down, down to the pit, down into hell. This is so simple, why would you deny it? What purpose do you have in denying what the bible says about hell being in the heart of the earth?



Yes, and that is also not allegory. The saints before CHrist went into hell into Abrahams bosom. When Christ died, He went into hell to "lead captivity captive" and take those OT saints to heaven.

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Remember, no person was saved until Christ died. Remember the story of the rich man and lazarus. The rich man "lifted his eyes in torments and saw Lazarus afar off". Luke 16:23-25 Both the saved and lost went to the heart of the earth before the Cross, but the saved were in "Paradise" and the lost in torments. Christ went down and brought those OT saints with Him out of hell into glory. That is why even though Christ was going down, he told the thief on the cross, "this day thou shalt be with me in paradise." They both went down before they went up. Not allegory. Jesus said he would go to the heart of the earth, and He did. Matt 12:40

Look at these verses together and see how they harmonize and make perfect sense. Remember, the bible is it's own best interpreter:

Eze_31:14 To the end that none of all the trees by the waters exalt themselves for their height, neither shoot up their top among the thick boughs, neither their trees stand up in their height, all that drink water: for they are all delivered unto death, to the nether parts of the earth, in the midst of the children of men, with them that go down to the pit.

Eze_26:20 When I shall bring thee down with them that descend into the pit, with the people of old time, and shall set thee in the low parts of the earth, in places desolate of old, with them that go down to the pit, that thou be not inhabited; and I shall set glory in the land of the living;

Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

nether parts of the earth=low parts of the earth=down to the pit=lower parts of the earth=where Jesus descended=where abrahams bosom was=where lazarus could see=hell.

Hell is the pit which is in the nether/low parts of the earth. This is plainly taught if you simply lay aside your allegory.

The bible makes so much more sense if you would simply believe it as it is written.



But it is more than metaphor. While death is a state of being and I could see the allegory there, it is referred to in Scripture as more than a state of being:

Rev_20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Apparently, like hell, death is a place that holds dead people. It also has gates:

Job 38:17 Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death?



Not necessarily. While I of course believe the 6 day creation story in genesis was a literal 6 days and happened just as the bible tells us it did, I also believe the Gap theory. So as far as the age of the earth itself, I don't have any idea, neither do scientists.

Don't tell me you are an evolutionist too?



Are you implying that the earth is not a circle, or that the sea doesn't have circuits or underwater rivers? Are you implying that there is no such thing as a jet stream? Are you saying that wind doesn't have weight? Or do you take a black marker to those verses and toss up your hands claiming you can't understand them?

I really wish you would stop saying I am wrong and show me how I am. Explain it if you can.

.

AB, you haven't given me anything to stuff. All you have done is tell me I am wrong without making a single logical argument to support your case or to even post a single Scripture with some explanation.



Wait a second, do you think I enjoy the concept of hell? Do you really think that it makes me happy to think about people going to hell? I can assure you it brings me no such pleasure. I would not wish hell on my worst enemy.

But I can also assure you that if pause and empathy are what you value, then warning people about being on the broad road is a great deal more compassionate than telling them "everything is going to be alright, just ignore the crazy bible beliver and Jesus who said you had to be Born Again, they are crazy. You will be fine, just try your best"



That was my point. The people on the list exclude Paul. That is heresy.




You keep saying it, SHOW ME THE LIGHT! Please tell me how I am wrong. I am currently believing the bible, allowing the bible to define itself, and be its' own interpreter. If you feel there is more to it than that, you are going to have to do more than allude to it.



A little. The mystery babylon is allegory for the rcc and the "city which sitteth on seven hills" is Rome, which is known as the city on seven hills. Perhaps Jesus doesn't have a sword come out of his mouth, but something supernatural happens which allow Him to kill that many people in such a short time. Maybe it was something coming out of His mouth that John could best describe as a sword?



Yep, and you wouldn't have much of it without Paul and if you try to earn it you will never get it.



What you are attempting to do is tell me that I cannot rely on the bible to define it's own terms, to tell me what hell is and you expect me to rely on some early church writing or understanding on the subject. I see no reason why I should favor anything over the bible.



Are you arguing with me or the Scripture? :squint: Because the passage I showed you clearly says we are not saved by good works. So by that verse, believing is not a good work, otherwise that verse would be wrong, and since we know the bible is not wrong, then believing is not a work.

Unless you want to argue with the bible on that one too?



Yes, we are to be good citizens, good neighbors etc, but we aren't saved by those things. Those are "works of righteousness which we have done" but we are "not save by" them. Remember the verse we just went over? The bible lays it out plain.

We also know that "there is a way which seemeth right unto a man" and that way is works. But is leads to destruction according to Jesus. Any person on earth that we witness to would admit that they think being a good person is what gets them to heaven. That is what Jesus was talking about. There is one way which seems right to a man and that way is works, but that is not the way.

Jesus told us HE is THE WAY. The WAY is not a plan, or being good, THE WAY is a Man, the Messiah, our Savior.

.

It's not about whether or not we do it, it is about why we do it. If we do it thinking we are earning something from God which cannot be earned (hence free gift) then we are barking up the wrong tree.



Ab, you aren't arguing with me, you are arguing with dozens and dozens of verses of scripture that together show you plainly where the pit is, where the nether parts of the earth are, where the low parts of the earth are and where abrahams bosom was, and where hell is and where Christ descended to lead captivity captive. You are replacing the clear teaching of Scripture with your opinion based on zero Scripture and in fact IN SPITE of Scripture.



The devils first lie to mankind was to get them to doubt God's word with "hath God said". That is no different than what you are dealing with. God clearly teaches something in Scripture and you are saying "did He REALLY say that, or does it mean something opposite of what it appears to mean?"

Tell me, where is hell then? And do you have any Scripture to support your claim? Where do the unsaved dead go?



GLenda is a lost sinner on her way to hell. She is the epitome of Rom 10:3. And it was her intent to mislead me, as she did others or she would have flat out said from the beginning that the doctrine taught in Rom-Philemon was wrong. She didn't and she did that on purpose as she is a wolf in sheeps clothing. That is why her kind are so dangerous and it is why Paul so often warned against such:

Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

2Co 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Glenda and all those who pervert the gospel will be judged according to their works as is clearly taught in Scripture. And she will be found guilty and will be thrown into a lake of fire. I take no pleasure in that fact and I have had many conversations with her about her error, but she simply doesn't believe the bible and for that she will perish. And her false gospel is a danger to those she deceives. I could post 30 more verses with warnings all over the NT. do you believe the warnings are mean spirited?



Not inciting at all. Again, those on the list do not object to being on it. Glenda does not deny her heresy, and neither do the catholics or Christ deniers. They actually enjoy it and argue over who should be on top. The only people that get upset are people who don't stand for anything and are only worried about everyone getting along. :wave2:



Tell you what, start with the verses I posted on the subject. I posted quite a few that all point to the same conclusion. If I am wrong, explain what the verses do mean. How is the pit in the nether parts of the earth in the low parts of the earth where Abrahams bosom was and where Christ descended to lead captivity captive. DOn't just tell my I am wrong, tell me WHY.


Say what :squint:

Yea, right! TRY NOT... Posting about a thousands questions and then complain when they don't get answered in a single paragraph/post! :rolleyes:

Your a loser... not wanting to let others see that you really follow men! Try asking one question at a time!!! :readthis:

Your so simple minded hiding behind your attempt at confusion...silly boy... it's easy to see your path! :dunce:

It's late... time for you to go to bed and call your pastor in the morning for a reply! :rolleyes:


Paul

Lon
October 8th, 2012, 10:02 PM
Sorry Freelight,

But Cholerics' pastor does not speak about liberal spiritualists on Sunday... so he has no way of offering a response either for or against you.... so you kinda get ignored due to his lack of intellectual understanding of your post. ;)
Rather, it is the difference between one who brings things besides a Bible into his/her truth. Not a problem if we are talking about math, big potential problem if we are talking about eternal life: John 14:6

It should be obvious to all that Choleric can only repeat what he hears and thus creates list to compensate for his lack of intellect! :rolleyes:
"It is obvious" that you have a hard time drawing logical conclusions from anything other than what you want made-up.


If you[']r[e] on the list... it's because his pastor told him you belong there, nothing more or less in his response! :doh:
▲ case in point...it's stupid. If you did the brainslap your icon suggests, it might jog something missing back in place. There is virtually no possibility nor indication that anybody but Choleric fashioned this list. You folks seem to think brainwashing is easy and effective for some reason.


The weak minded feel the need to create list so they can feel better about dismissing what they can not intellectually debate! Tambora is very much like this! :readthis:
Actually, not being able to draw logical conclusions is more indicative.


It's not Choleric's or Tambora's fault... So we should not boast in their limitations but be thankful we were given much much more! Here's to you Choleric for your list! :first: Thank you for making the rest of us look so GOOD!

Peace,
Paul
It could be just me, but this whole post looks like defensive and hurt posturing. I'm not sure if that is the only logical conclusion, but 1) I can admit it and you can't or at least haven't, that your reasoning is flawed and 2) I believe the conclusion fits the facts. You seem to be lashing out. You aren't very nice, even on a good day so such is continued par for the course with my expectation of you. You appear to me a shallow pithy person who enjoys this kind of inane banter, so no doubt, you'll seek something witty to you and unremarkable to me for a response.

My point? This whole redress of your's is yet another of many unremarkable posts that reveal you do not even read thread posts logically so cannot be expected to speak of the scriptures with any likewise semblance.

Pierac
October 8th, 2012, 10:48 PM
Rather, it is the difference between one who brings things besides a Bible into his/her truth. Not a problem if we are talking about math, big potential problem if we are talking about eternal life: John 14:6

"It is obvious" that you have a hard time drawing logical conclusions from anything other than what you want made-up.


▲ case in point...it's stupid. If you did the brainslap your icon suggests, it might jog something missing back in place. There is virtually no possibility nor indication that anybody but Choleric fashioned this list. You folks seem to think brainwashing is easy and effective for some reason.


Actually, not being able to draw logical conclusions is more indicative.


It could be just me, but this whole post looks like defensive and hurt posturing. I'm not sure if that is the only logical conclusion, but 1) I can admit it and you can't or at least haven't, that your reasoning is flawed and 2) I believe the conclusion fits the facts. You seem to be lashing out. You aren't very nice, even on a good day so such is continued par for the course with my expectation of you. You appear to me a shallow pithy person who enjoys this kind of inane banter, so no doubt, you'll seek something witty to you and unremarkable to me for a response.

My point? This whole redress of your's is yet another of many unremarkable posts that reveal you do not even read thread posts logically so cannot be expected to speak of the scriptures with any likewise semblance.

Wow... Just like Obama during the debate.... Blahblahblah but no actual facts to back them up! :think:

Would you like for me to post the links to how you repond to me on the forum? You know how you say/said ... I'm a good debator so you will not respond to my post! YOUR WORDS NOT MINE!!! Yea, I got the links... :readthis:

So Lon, just ask a question... and stop babbling like a child with his hand in the cookie jar! The title of the thread judges you and Choleric more than I ever could! :rolleyes:

Do you really think you have the right to dismiss those whom have claimed Jesus as their Lord and King... the son of the living God...yet you deny them from the body of the Christ? Jesus praised Peter for saying these words I posted... yet you want to add to them! Now whom did Jesus chastise for doing this very thing you do... that is adding to the word??? I don't need to give you the Scripture, as you already know them and thus your shame is even greater :think:

Next time try following your own advice! :doh:

I'm not a good debator, I just expose the truth behind your post!
:Poly::sherlock:
Paul

dreadknought
October 8th, 2012, 10:50 PM
Arrogance................ & ignorance: Pierac :up:

Pierac
October 8th, 2012, 11:03 PM
Arrogance................ & ignorance: Pierac :up:

Based upon what?

Me pointing out facts... You join Choleric with applying labels you only repeat from your leaders and thus create list to compensate for your lack of intellect! :rolleyes:

Don't hate me for showing how you follow men!

I post with tough love Bro,
Deal with it!
Paul

Lon
October 9th, 2012, 01:54 AM
Wow... Just like Obama during the debate.... Blahblahblah but no actual facts to back them up! :think:

Would you like for me to post the links to how you repond to me on the forum? You know how you say/said ... I'm a good debator so you will not respond to my post! YOUR WORDS NOT MINE!!! Yea, I got the links... :readthis: Yep, pass alone the link. I'm sure, just like you've done here in thread, and with scriptures, there is a fragmented logical connect. In fact, I'm sure it was a comparison of your ability:
Debate? "so so"
Theology? "no no" :nono:
Was it this one perchance?

Everytime you say this, the hype is greater than the effect. It is always like some bunny swatting a turtle or armadillo with a tissue paper. I admit I almost clicked. The hype is always over-the-top, so kudos for that.
Not much of a spiritual commentary, but affirmation on your sales-technique.
You could probably get me to a Shaklee or Amway meeting, though I'd be disappointed when I got there.



So Lon, just ask a question... and stop babbling like a child with his hand in the cookie jar! The title of the thread judges you and Choleric more than I ever could! :rolleyes:
:doh: not the definition of a heretic.


Do you really think you have the right to dismiss those whom have claimed Jesus as their Lord and King... the son of the living God...yet you deny them from the body of the Christ? Jesus praised Peter for saying these words I posted... yet you want to add to them! Now whom did Jesus chastise for doing this very thing you do... that is adding to the word??? I don't need to give you the Scripture, as you already know them and thus your shame is even greater
"Not being able to draw logical conclusions" is a dismissal?
Jesus might know you. My assessment is rather that you don't know Him very well.


Next time try following your own advice!

I'm not a good debator, I just expose the truth behind your post!

Paul
Compared to your theology you are 'able' to debate.
Advice? You mean "be nice?" I didn't give it as advice, I just said you aren't. That's an observation but you have a hard time drawing logical conclusions so I'm okay with giving this observation as well. There is no advice there. If I was going to, it would be something like "read your bible more, spend a lot less time arguing about it here" or something like that. :up:

Pierac
October 9th, 2012, 11:03 AM
Yep, pass alone the link. I'm sure, just like you've done here in thread, and with scriptures, there is a fragmented logical connect. In fact, I'm sure it was a comparison of your ability:
Debate? "so so"
Theology? "no no" :nono:
Was it this one perchance?

:doh: not the definition of a heretic.

"Not being able to draw logical conclusions" is a dismissal?
Jesus might know you. My assessment is rather that you don't know Him very well.


Compared to your theology you are 'able' to debate.
Advice? You mean "be nice?" I didn't give it as advice, I just said you aren't. That's an observation but you have a hard time drawing logical conclusions so I'm okay with giving this observation as well. There is no advice there. If I was going to, it would be something like "read your bible more, spend a lot less time arguing about it here" or something like that. :up:

Don't hate me for exposing your sins...

Yes, Lon you see sin as a spiritual child... only in moral behavior.... Time to see sin from God's view with no behavior involved... but knowledge and understanding of the spirit!

Thayer Definition:
1a) to be without a share in
1b) to miss the mark
1c) to err, be mistaken


E-sword Word StudyG266

αμαρτία
hamartía; gen. hamartías, fem. noun from hamartánō (G264), to sin. Sin, missing the true end and scope of our lives, which is God.

Sin = Missing the mark!!!

You totally miss the mark... John 17:1 Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He (Jesus) said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son (Jesus), that the Son (Jesus) may glorify You, (God) 2 even as You (God) gave Him (Jesus) authority over all flesh, that to all whom You (God) have given Him (Jesus) , He may give eternal life. 3 "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

Mark 12:28 One of the scribes came and heard them arguing, and recognizing that He had answered them well, asked Him, "What commandment is the foremost of all?" Jesus answered, "The foremost is, 'HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD;

You miss the mark Lon (thus Sin) on the greatest commandment of all!

So don't hate me for pointing it out... to you! You now have time to repent because of me showing you the truth! ;)

:Poly::sherlock:
Paul

jeremysdemo
October 9th, 2012, 11:22 AM
Heretic and PROUD! say it with me!

we are in good company......Y'shua, Luther, etc etc.

keep shinin

jerm :cool:

freelight
October 9th, 2012, 02:54 PM
~*~*~


Dont forget, back in Jesus day...many thought he was a heretic ;)




pj

Choleric
October 9th, 2012, 03:23 PM
~*~*~

Dont forget, back in Jesus day...many thought he was a heretic ;)

pj

According to you He still is a heretic. Which is why you're on the list.

jeremysdemo
October 9th, 2012, 04:41 PM
According to you He still is a heretic. Which is why you're on the list.

are you saying Jesus did not go against the Orthodox beliefs of his day?

(that is the definition of a heretic)

answer carefully.....Matthew 10:33

keep shinin

jerm :cool:

Lon
October 9th, 2012, 06:33 PM
Don't hate me for exposing your sins...

Yes, Lon you see sin as a spiritual child... only in moral behavior.... Time to see sin from God's view with no behavior involved... but knowledge and understanding of the spirit!

Thayer Definition:
1a) to be without a share in
1b) to miss the mark
1c) to err, be mistaken


E-sword Word StudyG266

αμαρτία
hamartía; gen. hamartías, fem. noun from hamartánō (G264), to sin. Sin, missing the true end and scope of our lives, which is God.

Sin = Missing the mark!!!

You totally miss the mark... John 17:1 Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He (Jesus) said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son (Jesus), that the Son (Jesus) may glorify You, (God) 2 even as You (God) gave Him (Jesus) authority over all flesh, that to all whom You (God) have given Him (Jesus) , He may give eternal life. 3 "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

Mark 12:28 One of the scribes came and heard them arguing, and recognizing that He had answered them well, asked Him, "What commandment is the foremost of all?" Jesus answered, "The foremost is, 'HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD;

You miss the mark Lon (thus Sin) on the greatest commandment of all!

So don't hate me for pointing it out... to you! You now have time to repent because of me showing you the truth! ;)

:Poly::sherlock:
Paul
If you are trying to tell me how to correct you, I understand. It isn't logical inability, it is sin on your part :up:

Other than that, there is a huge disconnect from the previous post. I haven't a clue which portion you'd be referring to. It is one big ofuscation and nonaddress from anything I could attach that tirade to.

So back to me: Yes, you 'can' debate. No, you cannot do theology well.

Lon
October 9th, 2012, 06:35 PM
are you saying Jesus did not go against the Orthodox beliefs of his day?

(that is the definition of a heretic)

answer carefully.....Matthew 10:33

keep shinin

jerm :cool:
No, He didn't. He went against their 'behavior.' He told the disciples to do as they said, not do as they did.

keypurr
October 9th, 2012, 07:37 PM
Sure I do, I have the bible that clearly teaches that Jesus is God, that Paul's apostleship was genuine and that salvation is a free gift.

Please pick one if you would like clarification from Scripture.

I wonder why they call Jesus Christ instead of Jesus God.

Oh, I think I have figured it out, Jesus is the Christ not God.

keypurr
October 9th, 2012, 07:47 PM
No, He didn't. He went against their 'behavior.' He told the disciples to do as they said, not do as they did.

I think he was correcting their understanding of scripture which they based their customs on.

jeremysdemo
October 9th, 2012, 08:20 PM
are you saying Jesus did not go against the Orthodox beliefs of his day?

(that is the definition of a heretic)

answer carefully.....Matthew 10:33

keep shinin

jerm No, He didn't. He went against their 'behavior.' He told the disciples to do as they said, not do as they did.

let's see if that holds any water when compared to scriptural references.

One of the standard or "orthodox" beliefs of the Sadducee was against the resurrection of the dead.
Now if the disciples were to do as the Sadducee said, were to adhere to what they taught, they too would have to not believe in the resurrection.

is that how you interpret that passage? to include all the orthodox beliefs of the Temple teachers?

to me what Y'shua is saying in that passage is specific to the context of the observance of Law of Moses, not every religious orthodox belief they had. ;)

here it is for your review, Matthew 23:3.

keep shinin

jerm :cool:

freelight
October 9th, 2012, 08:33 PM
According to you He still is a heretic. Which is why you're on the list.


It doesnt follow that my recognition of him being a 'heretic' in the eyes of many (particularly the religious leaders of his day) .... implies that I somehow think hes a 'heretic' today.

I dont think anywhere in the archives of TOL you'll find me stating that Jesus is a 'heretic', - in fact I started here years ago as a 'Christian (Other)' and have "progressed" as a student of universal spirituality with a leaning towards liberal Hinduism (Remember 'God' is One, the same fundamental reality for all)..I've always been very positive in my 'Christology', and respectful to the Lord Jesus in both his human and divine attributes, however those are 'assumed' or 'related').

Also my own personal experience of Jesus and the Holy Spirit remains an essential and intrinsic part of my continuous spiritual journey. I have never denied what I consider 'authentic' events of true religious experience, although I may not have thoroughly shared some of these occasions.

The journey continues.....



pj

jeremysdemo
October 9th, 2012, 08:34 PM
The 'Paul is a godless liar' crowd (Ebionites) (**this crowd also believes works are necessary for salvation)
1) Glenda (Glenda also denies the deity of Christ, she is trying to get to the bottom of the Lake of Fire)
2) jeremysdemo

If you are on this list and you repent of your heresy, or if you find my categorization of your beliefs is in error, just post and let us know.


I would like to know if someone cares enough for me to tell me (perfect love) how I am to repent of something I never said or did?

I never said Paul was a liar, (but he said he lied, Romans 3:7) neither have I ever said works are necessary for salvation (tho I do not condemn anyone who does the work of God), neither did Y'shua, in fact he said anyone with faith in Him would, John 14:12, how can I be held to higher standard then His Son?

C, you got things so twisted, does loosing a debate really bother you that much? are your own beliefs on that shaky of ground?

if not, why do you do and say the falsehoods you say of others?

and why do the commandments of God mean so little to you? Exodus 20:16

I would think if the Spirit of the Almighty God was truly with you these things would weigh heavily on your heart.

you are always in my prayers, Matthew 5:44, I can't even repent/regret knowing you C, I count that as a blessing as I count all those whom He sends to me.

keep shinin

jerm :cool:

jeremysdemo
October 9th, 2012, 09:43 PM
I wonder why they call Jesus Christ instead of Jesus God.

Oh, I think I have figured it out, Jesus is the Christ not God.

me and Ben just had a rather long discussion about terms used in the Torah.

it seems back then there was much less separation between God, man, and His promises to man (more specifically Israel).

this is to be understood when you have water parting, manna falling from the sky, demons being cast out and people being resurrected, etc..

when was the last time any of that was going on?

long story short, Israel is God's Son, and God made certain promises to Abraham concerning Him and his seed, the scriptures intertwine these concepts without separation, (how can one separate a promise of God from God?) How can one separate a Son of God in the same manner when the Son is covered in the promise?

All these concepts were well established in the OT when Y'shua came, a Son of God who was also according to the apostles account the Word of God (much like the word that was a promise over Abraham's 1st born Israel) you can't separate them either, at least not in that encompassing context.

Here, Israel was God's Son (or God's beloved whom His promises resided over) but yet was not God in the non-corporal sense, but yet covered in His Word there God dwelt and cannot be separated from His own Word, likewise Y'shua, also Son of God, also Son of Man, also God's promises/word dwelt with Him and cannot be separated from God tho he was flesh like Israel was, Psalm 22:3, God inhabited their praise.

God's word (like promises and instruction) cannot be apart from God, it is a part of God, he who has the Word also Has God in that sense, God is Spirit and His Word is Life, that is why Y'shua said, John 5:39-40, they were searching the records of God's past word to look for Life and would not come to the Living Word that was in the vessel He chose (Y'shua) to have it more abundantly, John 10:10.

Y'shua was the fulfillment of the promise of God to bring a Messiah, as savior unto the house of David, that was God's Word that became flesh, and His Word cannot be severed from God, John 1:1, they are one, neither does it come back void.

I think the problem arises when people lack the education of the Torah and start thinking of these concepts as humans or corporal beings, these are not of man, neither can God or His Word, however it may go out, be compared to men and their gods and concepts of gods.

Y'shua showed throughout his ministry, he was not a Zeus could not be the conquering warrior Messiah men wanted him to be, he was not an offspring of a greater God sent here to free the Israelite's from Roman rule, he did not fit any of the concepts man previously had of God because He was the part of God that is the Word just as the Word/promises went forth over Israel, the same Word that created the heavens and earth, the same word that gave us the commandments, but that is not good enough for some people, it is not good enough for God's word to be the part of God we receive for Life, they want a God that fit's man's definition of God, they want to define God into an idol they can worship, into a man instead of accepting His Word which is what Y'shua was sent to give to the lost sheep.

if people want to worship a man or their own concept of God instead of accepting the Word that was sent forth throughout the Torah culminating in the promise of Messiah for the purpose of salvation they will not prosper but will be lost/perish Hosea 4:6.

keep shinin

jerm :cool:

Lon
October 9th, 2012, 09:57 PM
let's see if that holds any water when compared to scriptural references.

One of the standard or "orthodox" beliefs of the Sadducee was against the resurrection of the dead.
Now if the disciples were to do as the Sadducee said, were to adhere to what they taught, they too would have to not believe in the resurrection.

is that how you interpret that passage? to include all the orthodox beliefs of the Temple teachers?

to me what Y'shua is saying in that passage is specific to the context of the observance of Law of Moses, not every religious orthodox belief they had. ;)

here it is for your review, Matthew 23:3.

keep shinin

jerm :cool:
Er, He told them to listen to the "Pharisees." Sure, you can make a context of interpretation for about anything but we have to be careful of that. The disciples were to avoid the contaminants of the Pharisees.
I agree they were to follow in orthodoxy.

jeremysdemo
October 10th, 2012, 07:00 AM
are you saying Jesus did not go against the Orthodox beliefs of his day?No, He didn't. He went against their 'behavior.' He told the disciples to do as they said, not do as they did.
let's see if that holds any water when compared to scriptural references.

One of the standard or "orthodox" beliefs of the Sadducee was against the resurrection of the dead.
Now if the disciples were to do as the Sadducee said, were to adhere to what they taught, they too would have to not believe in the resurrection.

is that how you interpret that passage? to include all the orthodox beliefs of the Temple teachers?

to me what Y'shua is saying in that passage is specific to the context of the observance of Law of Moses, not every religious orthodox belief they had.

here it is for your review, Matthew 23:3.

keep shinin

jerm Er, He told them to listen to the "Pharisees." Sure, you can make a context of interpretation for about anything but we have to be careful of that. The disciples were to avoid the contaminants of the Pharisees.
I agree they were to follow in orthodoxy.

Let me ask you another question, maybe it will help put this in perspective since the resurrection didn't work, leaving aside for a moment that the Sadducee where scribes (also mentioned in the passage) and High Priest sitting in the seat of Moses in the Temple, let alone that some beleive the term of "Pharisees" greatly increased in the gospels oral traditions after the destruction on the Temple (of which many blamed the Pharisees for the uprising) and that the passage clearly mentions the observance of the law and not every orthodox belief of groups of that time were included in that observance, (for example it well accepted that some groups rejected mitzvot for Halakha and instead accepted the Tanakh as supreme authority as the Sadducee are believed to have).

^^^that is the context, historically and scripturaly^^^ :)

knowing that Christian Orthodoxy varies in Eastern and Western traditions down the centuries, what in your opinion is the correct Orthodoxy today (most accurate to the traditions of the apostles) that a person may follow your assertion above about Y'shua and what you beleive his example was for us to follow?

keep shinin

jerm :cool:

Lon
October 10th, 2012, 07:08 AM
what in your opinion is the correct Orthodoxy today (most accurate to the traditions of the apostles) that a person may follow your assertion above about Y'shua and what you beleive his example was for us to follow?

keep shinin

jerm :cool:
Is there going to be a comparison? I'm not sure it will work. We make this assessment based on what we know of scripture in comparison, and we are protestant 'outsiders' looking at the two you mention. Jesus and the disciples were in the middle of the Jewish community. Jesus gave several 'in-house' verifications such as "we Jews worship what we know" and "I came for the house of Israel." Those, to me, are a lot different than trying to make a weaker comparison by contrast.

That is, Jesus gave a greater endorsement than your and mine would be of the EO and RC.

jeremysdemo
October 10th, 2012, 07:34 AM
Is there going to be a comparison? I'm not sure it will work. We make this assessment based on what we know of scripture in comparison, and we are protestant 'outsiders' looking at the two you mention. Jesus and the disciples were in the middle of the Jewish community. Jesus gave several 'in-house' verifications such as "we Jews worship what we know" and "I came for the house of Israel." Those, to me, are a lot different than trying to make a weaker comparison by contrast.

That is, Jesus gave a greater endorsement than your and mine would be of the EO and RC.

Why are you not confirming the Sadducee where scribes and sat in the seat of Moses at the time of Y'shua therefore included in His instruction to the disciples Matthew 23:3, and that their orthodox beliefs excluded resurrection?

I only asked you the question to try and give the example relevance and scripture application to our time and this thread who's subject is Orthodoxy and heresy (it's a given we are far removed from the their situation). The Sadducee where the very picture of Orthodoxy at that time (rejecting mitzvot and adhering only to Tanakh) yet Y'shua spoke directly against their belief concerning resurrection, Matthew 17:22-23.

how can you know that and still say Y'shua supported the Orthodoxy of his day?

perhaps the definition will help?

1or·tho·dox
adjective \ˈȯr-thə-ˌdäks\
1
a : conforming to established doctrine especially in religion

keep shinin

jerm :cool:

Lon
October 10th, 2012, 07:46 AM
Why are you not confirming the Sadducee where scribes and sat in the seat of Moses at the time of Y'shua therefore included in His instruction to the disciples Matthew 23:3, and that their orthodox beliefs excluded resurrection?

I only asked you the question to try and give the example relevance and scripture application to our time and this thread who's subject is Orthodoxy and heresy (it's a given we are far removed from the their situation). The Sadducee where the very picture of Orthodoxy at that time (rejecting mitzvot and adhering only to Tanakh) yet Y'shua spoke directly against their belief concerning resurrection, Matthew 17:22-23.

how can you know that and still say Y'shua supported the Orthodoxy of his day?

perhaps the definition will help?

1or·tho·dox
adjective \ˈȯr-thə-ˌdäks\
1
a : conforming to established doctrine especially in religion

keep shinin

jerm :cool:
Do you remember when He corrected them, he uplifted one's teaching over the other on that particular? That is supporting an orthodoxy isn't it (Capital Orthodoxy means the Orthodox churches :) )?

jeremysdemo
October 10th, 2012, 08:00 AM
Do you remember when He corrected them, he uplifted one's teaching over the other on that particular? That is supporting an orthodoxy isn't it

Yes I do, Orthodoxy has no room however for picking and choosing, to disagree with even on tenant is to reject orthodoxy as Y'shua did according to the accounts of the apostles.

Yes, one may find some things within Orthodoxy that they agree with, even walk across bipartisan lines as Y'shua did, but unless they adhere to it's entirety they are not fully supporting Orthodoxy, therefore a heretic.

The purpose of my initial post to Choleric which you ran with was to see if he believes Y'shua went against the Orthodoxy (or established doctrine of his time, by definition) which I beleive ample evidence has been presented to support.

I still would like to hear his answer, we have yours which is No, however in light of the scripture presented you are always welcome to change that.


(Capital Orthodoxy means the Orthodox churches :) )?
grammatically you are correct, that was my mistake capitalizing orthodoxy in this context, a bad habit with that word.

we can also argue that orthodoxy in God's eyes is different than mans perception and Y'shua was more in-tune with that than the leaders of his day, but that certainly opens up the word to different definitions and makes using it as a yardstick to define heresy more difficult.

keep shinin

jerm :cool:

Choleric
October 10th, 2012, 11:31 AM
It doesnt follow that my recognition of him being a 'heretic' in the eyes of many (particularly the religious leaders of his day) .... implies that I somehow think hes a 'heretic' today.

I dont think anywhere in the archives of TOL you'll find me stating that Jesus is a 'heretic', - in fact I started here years ago as a 'Christian (Other)' and have "progressed" as a student of universal spirituality with a leaning towards liberal Hinduism (Remember 'God' is One, the same fundamental reality for all)..I've always been very positive in my 'Christology', and respectful to the Lord Jesus in both his human and divine attributes, however those are 'assumed' or 'related').

Also my own personal experience of Jesus and the Holy Spirit remains an essential and intrinsic part of my continuous spiritual journey. I have never denied what I consider 'authentic' events of true religious experience, although I may not have thoroughly shared some of these occasions.

The journey continues.....

pj

Jesus said that no man comes to the Father but by Him. Jesus said that He is the way and He is the only way. Jesus said that Way is narrow.

Do you believe that the Blood of Jesus and the salvation offered by God through faith is the only way to get to heaven? Do you believe biblical Christianity is the only way to God? I think the answer would be no.

Therefore, you call Jesus a liar and therefore consider Him a heretic, even though I am sure you find it uncomfortable to say it out loud.

Choleric
October 10th, 2012, 11:49 AM
I would like to know if someone cares enough for me to tell me (perfect love) how I am to repent of something I never said or did?

I remember some time back, Chickenman asked me to show proof of this too and I found a couple posts of yours and showed him and you most definitely have.


I never said Paul was a liar, (but he said he lied, Romans 3:7)

That is a lie. Paul never said he was a liar.


neither have I ever said works are necessary for salvation (tho I do not condemn anyone who does the work of God), neither did Y'shua, in fact he said anyone with faith in Him would, John 14:12, how can I be held to higher standard then His Son?

C, you got things so twisted, does loosing a debate really bother you that much? are your own beliefs on that shaky of ground?

I am not losing any debate. what are you talking about. If I ever enter into a debate, it is a topic which I am comfortable addressing and have not lost any debate. Please explain what you are talking about.


if not, why do you do and say the falsehoods you say of others?

On more than one occassion I have asked you to clear up your positions for us all. Just say the following:

Paul the apostle was God's great apostle to the gentiles. His obedience to the call of God was genuine and his writings are the basis for New Testament Christianity. Without His inspired contribution to the Word, we would have a much different Christianity and it is through this great man of God we understand the doctrine of salvation by grace without works. Paul was not a heretic and anyone who attempts to teach the gospel without His work, is preaching "another gospel".

If you can put your stamp of approval on that statement, I will publicly repent and apologize. Past experience tells me you won't.


and why do the commandments of God mean so little to you? Exodus 20:16

They mean quite a bit to me:

Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

Of course, that command comes from the pen of Paul, and we can understand why you would ignore that one.


I would think if the Spirit of the Almighty God was truly with you these things would weigh heavily on your heart.

They do, which is why I am so passionate about truth and the unperverted gospel. People that teach heresy lead others to hell, which is what those on the list do.


you are always in my prayers, Matthew 5:44, I can't even repent/regret knowing you C, I count that as a blessing as I count all those whom He sends to me.

keep shinin

jerm :cool:

Thanks jerm.

Daedalean's_Sun
October 10th, 2012, 12:15 PM
Sure I do, I have the bible that clearly teaches that Jesus is God, that Paul's apostleship was genuine and that salvation is a free gift.


Clearly it is does state these things clearly because otherwise the "heretics" wouldn't be able to cite the bible to support their argument. Even your criteria for what should constitute heresy is not Biblically supported but seemingly arbitrary. Why shouldn't other things mentioned in the bible be part of the criteria for who is or isn't a heretic?

keypurr
October 10th, 2012, 12:29 PM
me and Ben just had a rather long discussion about terms used in the Torah.

it seems back then there was much less separation between God, man, and His promises to man (more specifically Israel).

this is to be understood when you have water parting, manna falling from the sky, demons being cast out and people being resurrected, etc..

when was the last time any of that was going on?

long story short, Israel is God's Son, and God made certain promises to Abraham concerning Him and his seed, the scriptures intertwine these concepts without separation, (how can one separate a promise of God from God?) How can one separate a Son of God in the same manner when the Son is covered in the promise?

All these concepts were well established in the OT when Y'shua came, a Son of God who was also according to the apostles account the Word of God (much like the word that was a promise over Abraham's 1st born Israel) you can't separate them either, at least not in that encompassing context.

Here, Israel was God's Son (or God's beloved whom His promises resided over) but yet was not God in the non-corporal sense, but yet covered in His Word there God dwelt and cannot be separated from His own Word, likewise Y'shua, also Son of God, also Son of Man, also God's promises/word dwelt with Him and cannot be separated from God tho he was flesh like Israel was, Psalm 22:3, God inhabited their praise.

God's word (like promises and instruction) cannot be apart from God, it is a part of God, he who has the Word also Has God in that sense, God is Spirit and His Word is Life, that is why Y'shua said, John 5:39-40, they were searching the records of God's past word to look for Life and would not come to the Living Word that was in the vessel He chose (Y'shua) to have it more abundantly, John 10:10.

Y'shua was the fulfillment of the promise of God to bring a Messiah, as savior unto the house of David, that was God's Word that became flesh, and His Word cannot be severed from God, John 1:1, they are one, neither does it come back void.

I think the problem arises when people lack the education of the Torah and start thinking of these concepts as humans or corporal beings, these are not of man, neither can God or His Word, however it may go out, be compared to men and their gods and concepts of gods.

Y'shua showed throughout his ministry, he was not a Zeus could not be the conquering warrior Messiah men wanted him to be, he was not an offspring of a greater God sent here to free the Israelite's from Roman rule, he did not fit any of the concepts man previously had of God because He was the part of God that is the Word just as the Word/promises went forth over Israel, the same Word that created the heavens and earth, the same word that gave us the commandments, but that is not good enough for some people, it is not good enough for God's word to be the part of God we receive for Life, they want a God that fit's man's definition of God, they want to define God into an idol they can worship, into a man instead of accepting His Word which is what Y'shua was sent to give to the lost sheep.

if people want to worship a man or their own concept of God instead of accepting the Word that was sent forth throughout the Torah culminating in the promise of Messiah for the purpose of salvation they will not prosper but will be lost/perish Hosea 4:6.

keep shinin

jerm :cool:

The point I was trying to make is the Apostles did not call Jesus God, they called him Christ. There is a huge difference between God and his Christ. Only one is the true God yet man has changed the meaning of the word Christ. Christ is the image of God not God.

I can see how you can not seperate God's word from God, but I disagree that they can't be. We can bring God's words to folks and we are not God.

Peace friend.

Pierac
October 10th, 2012, 06:19 PM
If you are trying to tell me how to correct you, I understand. It isn't logical inability, it is sin on your part :up:

Other than that, there is a huge disconnect from the previous post. I haven't a clue which portion you'd be referring to. It is one big ofuscation and nonaddress from anything I could attach that tirade to.

So back to me: Yes, you 'can' debate. No, you cannot do theology well.

Sorry Lon,

Your being too focused... I was posting about the thread in general... but including your post in the process.

The reality is... this thread is about the multiple heads of men (Orthodox Teachings) It's Choleric's attempt to speak for the Body of our lord Jesus the Christ by following the teachings of men. It's kinda like this... In relation to the body of Christ... Choleric is the foot... and He's shoving it in Jesus' mouth! Our Head!

I'm surprised you do not see Choleric's thread is actually trying to be judge and executioner of fellow followers of Jesus! There is only one head! And like you, Choleric misses the Mark! :think:


Paul

Lon
October 10th, 2012, 06:28 PM
Sorry Lon,

Your being too focused...
It came with my name all over it...


I was posting about the thread in general... but including your post in the process.

The reality is... this thread is about the multiple heads of men (Orthodox Teachings) It's Choleric's attempt to speak for the Body of our lord Jesus the Christ by following the teachings of men. It's kinda like this... In relation to the body of Christ... Choleric is the foot... and He's shoving it in Jesus' mouth! Our Head!

I'm surprised you do not see Choleric's thread is actually trying to be judge and executioner of fellow followers of Jesus! There is only one head! And like you, Choleric misses the Mark! :think:


Paul
Every body has to work with beliefs and all the Apostles warn of devisive members. I would have no problem with this list if he included me on it for some reason or another. He is doing what he believes scripture calls him to do. I am a Calvinist, so understand the minority view and sympathize with your plight, I think. There are a few threads here on TOL against us too. For me, it is one thread at a time and as I deem to interact (I can't do 25 threads a month or a year for Robert Pate).

Zeke
October 10th, 2012, 09:36 PM
According to you He still is a heretic. Which is why you're on the list.

Can I be on the list now? I think jesus was a greek myth and never existed literaly, the teaching subscribe to him is legit for the real spiritual truth of inner science (astrotheology) of the temple made without hands, but that was around long before the story of jesus ever surfaced.

Maybe the Jewish, and the various other versions of exoteric religions is the real heritical myths being pushed on the native peoples of the earth who are the real children of the light, who are called pagans but worship the creator in humble and scared ways perceived as idol worship by the so called civilized folks who believe in a god of eternal punishment and knash their teeth at the thought of the imortality of the light that ignites all life.

freelight
October 11th, 2012, 04:15 AM
Jesus said that no man comes to the Father but by Him. Jesus said that He is the way and He is the only way.

Note this statement of Jesus is contained only in John's gospel (John 14:6), and it reflects the writers own theological emphasis....and a later date of developing Christology.

The writer of John's gospel would naturally continue with his theme of presenting Jesus as he saw him...and have Jesus say what was within the context of the purpose of his writing. The question is "how much of what is written was actually spoken by Jesus...and how much is the creative license of the writer?"

Even so,...Jesus always directed our worship to the Father-God, who is Infinite Spirit. Jesus at the time, representing 'God' would naturally and most logically be the way, truth and life of 'God' expressing to those available to recognize such.



Do you believe that the Blood of Jesus and the salvation offered by God through faith is the only way to get to heaven?

If you were familiar with my older thread "Atonement without blood" (it got deleted in the recent trimming), you'd know the answer to that, or at least see that there are ways of 'atonement' NOT requiring blood (human or animal) found within the OT. - also the idea of 'blood atonement' is against the sensibilities of many modern day persons...and is problematic in the light of certain principles such as 'karma' and 'self-responsibility'....since every man reaps what he sows and suffers for his own sins, as well as is responsible for his own 'salvation'.


Do you believe biblical Christianity is the only way to God? I think the answer would be no.

Correct,....I dont limit 'salvation' to anyone's definition of 'biblical Christianity', neither to any one religious school, tradition or culture...since 'God' is the single, infinite, all-encompassing ONE. Also from a 'non-dual' perspective.....since 'God' is omnipresent, there is no 'way' to Him. What is ever-present....is always being. There is no distance, where there is no seperation.


Therefore, you call Jesus a liar and therefore consider Him a heretic, even though I am sure you find it uncomfortable to say it out loud.

I indicated that some believed Jesus was a heretic in his day..since he deviated from what some Jews considered 'customary' or 'orthodox'.

I've never called Jesus a liar, although words attributed to him can be 'variously interpreted'.





pj

Choleric
October 11th, 2012, 08:43 AM
Note this statement of Jesus is contained only in John's gospel (John 14:6), and it reflects the writers own theological emphasis....and a later date of developing Christology.

The writer of John's gospel would naturally continue with his theme of presenting Jesus as he saw him...and have Jesus say what was within the context of the purpose of his writing. The question is "how much of what is written was actually spoken by Jesus...and how much is the creative license of the writer?"

Even so,...Jesus always directed our worship to the Father-God, who is Infinite Spirit. Jesus at the time, representing 'God' would naturally and most logically be the way, truth and life of 'God' expressing to those available to recognize such.




If you were familiar with my older thread "Atonement without blood" (it got deleted in the recent trimming), you'd know the answer to that, or at least see that there are ways of 'atonement' NOT requiring blood (human or animal) found within the OT. - also the idea of 'blood atonement' is against the sensibilities of many modern day persons...and is problematic in the light of certain principles such as 'karma' and 'self-responsibility'....since every man reaps what he sows and suffers for his own sins, as well as is responsible for his own 'salvation'.



Correct,....I dont limit 'salvation' to anyone's definition of 'biblical Christianity', neither to any one religious school, tradition or culture...since 'God' is the single, infinite, all-encompassing ONE. Also from a 'non-dual' perspective.....since 'God' is omnipresent, there is no 'way' to Him. What is ever-present....is always being. There is no distance, where there is no seperation.



I indicated that some believed Jesus was a heretic in his day..since he deviated from what some Jews considered 'customary' or 'orthodox'.

I've never called Jesus a liar, although words attributed to him can be 'variously interpreted'.





pj

Thank you for being honest about your beliefs. It's more than some are willing to do.

And thanks for reaffirming your belief that Jesus was a heretic. Have a good day.

freelight
October 11th, 2012, 12:23 PM
Thank you for being honest about your beliefs. It's more than some are willing to do.

You're welcome :)


And thanks for reaffirming your belief that Jesus was a heretic. Have a good day.

See previous post.

You can only make this assumption from a presupposition. The exclusivity-claim of John 14:6 is a subject in itself.

Jesus who was 'in tune' with God, could make such a statement that he was the way to the divine reality, the Living Father...since he represented 'God' in his purest essence as much as could be embodied or realized in Man. As an 'incarnation' of 'God' he was 'God' in their midst....essentially, because He was wholly God-conscious. He and the Father were one (this 'oneness' can be described in variuos ways metaphysically).

I have no problem with this interpretation of seeing Jesus as 'God', with the proper understanding. The Father was that greater Incorporeal Presence or divine Father-Personality (however you want to view it) that Jesus always acknowledge as 'True God'. It is that divine incorporeal BEING, the Father of all (including Jesus),...that is properly and truly 'God' as defined in the traditional/classical sense...for that Being is greater than any one human personality. In this sense, a more 'Unitarian' understanding and reverence for God is 'proper'. But my view of Deity includes all possible points of view, as that 'Presence' of Spirit and Mind that is both immanent and transcendent.



pj

freelight
October 11th, 2012, 12:30 PM
Clearly it is does state these things clearly because otherwise the "heretics" wouldn't be able to cite the bible to support their argument. Even your criteria for what should constitute heresy is not Biblically supported but seemingly arbitrary. Why shouldn't other things mentioned in the bible be part of the criteria for who is or isn't a heretic?


Remember,...to the 'orthodox'...anything that does not agree with their 'theology'....is more or less 'heretical' ;) - and that 'definition' and 'qualification' is determined by them...of course.



pj

Choleric
October 11th, 2012, 04:46 PM
You're welcome :)



See previous post.

You can only make this assumption from a presupposition. The exclusivity-claim of John 14:6 is a subject in itself.

In other words, I know what he said, but he didn't mean it.


Jesus who was 'in tune' with God, could make such a statement that he was the way to the divine reality, the Living Father...since he represented 'God' in his purest essence as much as could be embodied or realized in Man. As an 'incarnation' of 'God' he was 'God' in their midst....essentially, because He was wholly God-conscious. He and the Father were one (this 'oneness' can be described in variuos ways metaphysically).

I have no problem with this interpretation of seeing Jesus as 'God', with the proper understanding. The Father was that greater Incorporeal Presence or divine Father-Personality (however you want to view it) that Jesus always acknowledge as 'True God'. It is that divine incorporeal BEING, the Father of all (including Jesus),...that is properly and truly 'God' as defined in the traditional/classical sense...for that Being is greater than any one human personality. In this sense, a more 'Unitarian' understanding and reverence for God is 'proper'. But my view of Deity includes all possible points of view, as that 'Presence' of Spirit and Mind that is both immanent and transcendent.



pj

Exactly, Jesus said He was the only Way and you call Jesus a liar by claiming that there are in fact many ways to God.

Thank you for supporting my claim. Have a good day

freelight
October 11th, 2012, 05:03 PM
In other words, I know what he said, but he didn't mean it.

Still reading into things.


Exactly, Jesus said He was the only Way and you call Jesus a liar by claiming that there are in fact many ways to God.

There are more ways than one to interpret the said 'claim' (passage-context, inference, translation, etc.) Also, since 'God' is the only absolute reality (all else is relative), and is omnipresent....there is no 'way' to 'God', since God is all there really is at the fundamental core. Any concept of 'many ways' to 'God'....is another way of saying....every dimension of existence already inheres in 'God', since nothing exists outside of 'God' and any pointer in the direction of that reality, is a 'useful' one (many 'pointers' may be employed, but they all still point to what is 'original' to all). - as you expand out from here...things get even more exciting :)


Thank you for supporting my claim. Have a good day

I think those 'supports' may need a little 'tinkering'. giggles. I see that your stifling the 'dialogue' here (refusing any actually), so....i'll accept that 'nice day', and bid you one as well :thumb::wave:



pj

Choleric
October 11th, 2012, 06:03 PM
Still reading into things.

Not at all, simply repeating without all the fluff. Jesus said one thing, you profess something that is 180 degrees opposite of that. Sure, you have a clever way of attempting to explain it all and in your mind it may in fact be very kosher. But you are saying Jesus was wrong.


There are more ways than one to interpret the said 'claim' (passage-context, inference, translation, etc.) Also, since 'God' is the only absolute reality (all else is relative), and is omnipresent....there is no 'way' to 'God', since God is all there really is at the fundamental core. Any concept of 'many ways' to 'God'....is another way of saying....every dimension of existence already inheres in 'God', since nothing exists outside of 'God' and any pointer in the direction of that reality, is a 'useful' one (many 'pointers' may be employed, but they all still point to what is 'original' to all). - as you expand out from here...things get even more exciting :)

Again, Jesus said "I am the Way" and you say "there really is no way to God." To any sane person reading that with second grade reading comprehension, they will see you are calling Jesus a liar.

Again, you are saying "all roads lead to God". that is flat wrong. Jesus said that there are many on one big road that leads to a lake of fire and there is a narrow road, which is Christ Himself. You either take what He is offering and forsake all else, or you go to hell with your transcendentalism.


I think those 'supports' may need a little 'tinkering'. giggles. I see that your stifling the 'dialogue' here (refusing any actually), so....i'll accept that 'nice day', and bid you one as well :thumb::wave:

pj

Getting to God is not done through mental ascent to the fact that "a" God exists. You are a sinner, who is unable to "clear the record" with the judge, jury and executioner of the universe. Jesus is the only way to have your sins covered, and you righteousness filled to the full. He is the Lamb of God for a reason. Without Him, you are "dead in your sins" and no matter how much you think about god or whatever you do, you are still in your sins. There is nothing you can do, no pontificating that will cover it.

Without Christ, you are still in your sins. unitarianism is of the devil, who started all sin with "hath God said?" And you have fallen hook line and sinker for the oldest lie in the "Book" and you have fallen waaaaaaay down the rabbit hole.

Choleric
October 11th, 2012, 06:07 PM
Clearly it is does state these things clearly because otherwise the "heretics" wouldn't be able to cite the bible to support their argument.

The vast majority of Christianity throughout all time agreed on these 3 points. Those in the list are in the vast minority for a reason. And the heretics cannot support their doctrines using the bible. One of the groups denies 13 books of the New Testament to arrive at their doctrine and the other two groups deny hundreds of verses which contradict their doctrines.


Even your criteria for what should constitute heresy is not Biblically supported but seemingly arbitrary. Why shouldn't other things mentioned in the bible be part of the criteria for who is or isn't a heretic?

It appears you are not very well informed in basic Christianity. It is one thing to disagree with others on the intricacies of the faith, but you cannot be saved and believe that jesus was not God, that Paul was a heretic and that salvation has to be earned.

freelight
October 12th, 2012, 12:54 AM
Again, Jesus said "I am the Way" and you say "there really is no way to God."

Already addressed Jesus statement (John 14:6), which can be interpreted in different ways affecting different conclusions.


and you say "there really is no way to God."

I shared on this from a non-duality (http://nonduality.com/faq.htm) perspective. I used to have a thread on 'Non-Duality'. If one does not understand the basic essentials of what 'non-duality' is...it will be more difficult to understand.

Also see: Non-dualism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nondualism) (as held in the various religious traditions)

From a non-dualistic perspective...where 'God' is the omnipresent One (prior to all differences or seperation), that 'allness' of God includes and encompasses all....because IT is all (Infinite Spirit, Infinite Consciousness). There is nothing existing seperate from or outside of 'God'. Where 'God' is the One omnipresent reality.....there is no 'way' to that God-Presence since IT already is the all-pervading reality (filling all space, timeless, everywhere present). How can there be a path to what is already being? Someone or something may act as a pointer to 'that'. This is the fundamental view of Non-Dual Awareness in which all apparent forms and appearances come and go...but the Silent Witness of all passing phenomena remains. The duality of an 'seer' and 'seen' are vanished, and there is only the 'seeing'.



pj

Choleric
October 12th, 2012, 08:23 AM
Already addressed Jesus statement (John 14:6), which can be interpreted in different ways affecting different conclusions.

Yes, and my restatement of your explanation is 100% accurate


I shared on this from a non-duality (http://nonduality.com/faq.htm) perspective. I used to have a thread on 'Non-Duality'. If one does not understand the basic essentials of what 'non-duality' is...it will be more difficult to understand.

Also see: Non-dualism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nondualism) (as held in the various religious traditions)

From a non-dualistic perspective...where 'God' is the omnipresent One (prior to all differences or seperation), that 'allness' of God includes and encompasses all....because IT is all (Infinite Spirit, Infinite Consciousness). There is nothing existing seperate from or outside of 'God'. Where 'God' is the One omnipresent reality.....there is no 'way' to that God-Presence since IT already is the all-pervading reality (filling all space, timeless, everywhere present). How can there be a path to what is already being? Someone or something may act as a pointer to 'that'. This is the fundamental view of Non-Dual Awareness in which all apparent forms and appearances come and go...but the Silent Witness of all passing phenomena remains. The duality of an 'seer' and 'seen' are vanished, and there is only the 'seeing'.



pj

Again, I appreciate your desire to clarify your position, but the conclusion is the same. Jesus said no man can get to the father but by Him. You say God is all so you are already there so Jesus was wrong. You assume all roads lead to God. By simple logic, that would exclude Jesus' teaching since Je taught that no person can get there without going through Him.

And if what you teach is true, what do you make of the commandant to have no other Gods? Why did God make such a big deal about idol worship and Baal worship and Molech if they all lead to the same end?

In order for you to be true to your theological system, you would have to exclude the judeo-Christian theologies from your Unitarianism.

You do not get ton God by default according to the bible, you do not get there by mental ascent either.

You get there by being sinless and fully righteous which no man can be without Jesus. While you are breathing it is not too late.

freelight
October 12th, 2012, 02:21 PM
Yes, and my restatement of your explanation is 100% accurate

Looks like you've made up your mind on that point.


Again, I appreciate your desire to clarify your position, but the conclusion is the same.

Appreciation noted, - I just shared the more pure metaphysical position and philosophical context of looking at things from a 'non-dual' point of view,....that acknowledges the unicity behind all things, that 'being' and 'consciousness' is a homogenous whole, and all is connected within this matrix of Life, whose essence is energy-awareness.

Leaving religious beliefs and opinions asides,...when the mind is still....there is always this primordial underlying 'beingness' that is whole in its nature, yet includes the passing perceptions of forms and appearances. The 'things' that arise in consciousness....come and go....but the pure awareness at the Heart of all, does not 'come' or 'go'. A 'duality' would imply we are 'seperate' from 'God' or 'this' or 'that',...but there is only this ocean of pure awareness. 'That' in which the world arises....is 'God'. It is the origin and support of that is and ever will be.

I usually come from a 'base' of this recognition (as pure ontology/metaphysics), unless I'm commenting on particular religious subjects within a different context. I look at things from the vastness of space itself and see their 'context' and 'relationships', but recognize the primal substratum in which this world-play is taking place in the mind as it 'interprets' things influenced by various conditioning.


Jesus said no man can get to the father but by Him.

That verse can be variously translated. And even so,...it is propositional and only valid within a given context in as much as Jesus can somehow be a 'medium' or 'mediator' between a soul and 'God', according to one's 'faith' and the 'mechanics' of one's theology.


You say God is all so you are already there so Jesus was wrong.

Where God is the one all-pervading, omnipresent, timeless reality....there is no distance, space or time to traverse to get to God, since God is "all-ready, always available".

Jesus when speaking, was using himself naturally as a 'focal-point' of truth, revealing 'God' to them. He wasnt 'wrong' but pointing to himself as the expression and embodiment of 'God' in their very midst. One full of God and radiating pure God-consciousness can do the same.


You assume all roads lead to God.

Not necessarily. In a more liberal all-inclusive sense, that might be true, if souls are earnest in their quest for truth, and truly come into a true valuing of 'God'...because that 'attraction' naturally affords its affection.


By simple logic, that would exclude Jesus' teaching since Je taught that no person can get there without going through Him.

Again, a matter of 'interpretation' and how one applies such within a given context. The omnipresence of 'God' entails its own fullness, here, now. There is no 'getting' to what already is HERE as Spirit.


And if what you teach is true, what do you make of the commandant to have no other Gods? Why did God make such a big deal about idol worship and Baal worship and Molech if they all lead to the same end?

Consider the cultural context here, and how that other 'gods' were any deities outside of the revealed law and precepts of 'YHWH', so that any 'god' outside the tribe was an 'idol' or false god. The Jewish law points out that 'God' is One and Incorporeal,...so any graven or fashioned image, or a deity-concept different to the revealed one in their tradition...was not to be worshipped. Remember,...'YHWH' is a jealous 'God' by his own admission. The Jewish concept of God as monotheistic still holds in its essence, as an incorporeal One....no matter if one supposes a 'Godhead' within that unity or not, as defined later in Christian theology.


In order for you to be true to your theological system, you would have to exclude the judeo-Christian theologies from your Unitarianism.

Not really, if my theology is all-inclusive :) - 'Unitarian' and 'Trinitarian' are just two primary views on God/Jesus among other less popular ones within Christian theology.


You do not get ton God by default according to the bible, you do not get there by mental ascent either.

But from a non-dual perspective, if 'God' is an all-pervading universal reality, there is no 'getting' to 'God', although one may adopt a theology or religious tradition that can assist them in relating to God. Some use the Bible (compounded with a NT attached), others the Torah only, Gnostic scriptures, Vedas/Upanishads/Gita, various Sutras, the Tao Te Ching, the Koran, the Avesta, various other religious texts, not to mention many modern day schools and channeled writings. Apparently 'God' makes all these available within the freedom of consciousness.



pj

jeremysdemo
October 12th, 2012, 05:42 PM
I remember some time back, Chickenman asked me to show proof of this too and I found a couple posts of yours and showed him and you most definitely have.
Well that is god you are confirming things with another brother, definite step in the right direction....

Still, it would have been better to do before casting a stone. (always easier to get collaboration after the fact) :)




I never said Paul was a liar, (but he said he lied, Romans 3:7)
That is a lie. Paul never said he was a liar.
See there you go again (putting words into my mouth).
How is referring to a passage were Paul says if the gospel is furthered because of his lie should it counted as a sin calling him a liar?

how do you interpret that passage? or do you just use to condemn people that talk about it




On more than one occassion I have asked you to clear up your positions for us all. Just say the following:
Yes you have, but here is the problem I have had with it from day one.

It's called accuse now ask questions later, I don't think Y'shua would approve of your method and I am not required by all of God's law to do so either, in fact all the wisdom of the Torah speaks against entertaining such notions.



If you can put your stamp of approval on that statement, I will publicly repent and apologize. Past experience tells me you won't.
I see putting your own stipulations on your own repentance how very godly of you.

If I could save you trust me I would but you are not the dictator here you are an equal in God's eyes anyway.

It is for your own good that I do not bend to your foolishness, I hope some day God opens your eyes in that respect.


They mean quite a bit to me:

Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

Of course, that command comes from the pen of Paul, and we can understand why you would ignore that one.
I don't remember causing any division here, you seem to be causing quite a bit tho.
I don't know what doctrine you have learned either and if it is the same as what Paul is reminding his listeners of to even know if anything I say is contrary, I do know the NT pretty well tho and nothing I say to my knowledge is contradictory to it, if it was I would be more than happy to repent of even suggesting it.



They do, which is why I am so passionate about truth and the unperverted gospel. People that teach heresy lead others to hell, which is what those on the list do.
God is a good shepherd, I have full confidence and faith in him to lead his sheep from harm.
that being said, it's clear you have all the zeal of the pre-converted Paul, what seems to be lacking (at least from our conversations) is scriptural knowledge which may be why you misunderstand a lot of what I say for something it is not.

I don't think Paul charged his new converts with this task or individuals for that matter, I'm sure it was left to the elders and due process, God does not set up things that way in communities there are protocols and groups that make decisions after group prayer and deliberation.

If you don't believe me crack open your bible sometime and read Acts.

keep shinin

jerm :cool:

Choleric
October 13th, 2012, 07:21 AM
See there you go again (putting words into my mouth).
How is referring to a passage were Paul says if the gospel is furthered because of his lie should it counted as a sin calling him a liar?

:rotfl: THere you go again trying to play dumb after making a blatant statement that you though Paul lied.


how do you interpret that passage? or do you just use to condemn people that talk about it

I interpret it like everybody who doesn't think Paul was a heretic, he was speaking as his attackers were who were claiming that if sin glorified God who forgives sin, why am I yet a sinner? In other words, Paul's attackers were saying, "if forgiving sin glorifies GOd, and God wants to forgive sin, then why am I a sinner for doing something that allows GOd to be glorified?"


Yes you have, but here is the problem I have had with it from day one.

It's called accuse now ask questions later, I don't think Y'shua would approve of your method and I am not required by all of God's law to do so either, in fact all the wisdom of the Torah speaks against entertaining such notions.

No, it's "we all know where you stand, as we have repeatedly seen you attack Paul and plant seeds of dissimulation and doubt, the gig is up"

I am not going to search again for your heresy and post it for you. At this point, it is your chance to openly repent.


I see putting your own stipulations on your own repentance how very godly of you.

If I could save you trust me I would but you are not the dictator here you are an equal in God's eyes anyway.

It is for your own good that I do not bend to your foolishness, I hope some day God opens your eyes in that respect.

God said I should forgive you if you repent. Surely you realize that is in the bible. And I will, if you repent.


I don't remember causing any division here, you seem to be causing quite a bit tho.
I don't know what doctrine you have learned either and if it is the same as what Paul is reminding his listeners of to even know if anything I say is contrary, I do know the NT pretty well tho and nothing I say to my knowledge is contradictory to it, if it was I would be more than happy to repent of even suggesting it.

By causing doubt and planting seeds of dissent against half of the NT canon, you are indeed causing division. By reading your doubting and dissimulation, another person who is trusting God based on His word in Romans through Philemon, you can cause a person to question their faith. That is division and it is wrong. You may say "I am only asking questions" etc, but you are intentionally causing people to doubt the authenticity of Paul's writings.


God is a good shepherd, I have full confidence and faith in him to lead his sheep from harm.
that being said, it's clear you have all the zeal of the pre-converted Paul, what seems to be lacking (at least from our conversations) is scriptural knowledge which may be why you misunderstand a lot of what I say for something it is not.

God is indeed a good Shepherd. That is why in His word, He warns us about people like you and the rest on the list. God is very concerned about "false gospels" and it takes up quite a bit of the NT discussing this very topic and warning the church to stay away from it.

God was not kidding about it as you appear to assume.


I don't think Paul charged his new converts with this task or individuals for that matter, I'm sure it was left to the elders and due process, God does not set up things that way in communities there are protocols and groups that make decisions after group prayer and deliberation.

If you don't believe me crack open your bible sometime and read Acts.

Please show me where the protocol is to allow some elder to be the only person who can recognize and deal with dissimulation and heresy?

Paul wrote those letters to all believers in any church he wrote to. You should pick up your bible sometime and see it...Notice he doesn't start his epistles with "to the pastor and elders in ephesians"

YahuShuan
October 13th, 2012, 02:04 PM
No one should even give Choleric an ear...Pro 29:9-11 When a wise man disputes with a foolish man, Whether he rages or laughs, there is no peace. Bloodthirsty men hate the perfect, And seek the life of the straight. A fool lets out all his breath, But the wise calms it down.

Luk 24:25 He said to them, "Foolish men, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!

Simply said, Foolish men do not believe ALL that the prophets have spoken...a prophets main stay is to tell people to return (shuv/turn), or cause people to repent, thus they return to Torah. When they do believe, that is, they "turn from their wicked ways".

When they don't believe...they don't return. What is it that those who do not turn from their wicked ways to be saved do believe in? LAWLESSNESS!

2Th 2:7-12 For the secret of lawlessness is already at work – only until he who now restrains comes out of the midst. And then the lawless one shall be revealed, whom the Master shall consume with the Spirit of His mouth and bring to naught with the manifestation of His coming. The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power and signs and wonders of falsehood, and with all deceit of unrighteousness in those perishing, because they did not receive the love of the truth, in order for them to be saved. And for this reason Elohim sends them a working of delusion, for them to believe the falsehood, in order that all should be judged who did not believe the truth, but have delighted in the unrighteousness.

It is not the ones who do believe in the Law who are judged, but the ones who do not! They can not muster the BELIEF that "they can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth them". So instead, "they do lie".

Psa 119:142, 143 Your righteousness is righteousness forever, And Your Torah is truth. Distress and anguish have found me; Your commands are my delight.

Mat 12:43-50 “Now when the unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest, and finds none. “Then it says, ‘I shall return to my house from which I came.’ And when it comes, it finds it empty, swept, and decorated. Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they enter and dwell there. And the last of that man is worse than the first. So shall it also be with this wicked generation.” And while He was still talking to the crowds, see, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. And one said to Him, “See, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.” But He answering, said to the one who spoke to Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” And having stretched out His hand toward His taught ones, He said, “See My mother and My brothers! For whoever does the desire of My Father who is in the heavens is My brother and sister and mother.”

So when you see people railing against those who are with all they have, trying to DO what JESUS SAID...you are seeing "lawlessness" and it has been sent as "delusion"...FROM GOD HIMSELF!

So, "do not fear them"! Fear God instead! And allow Him to cast out all fear with HIS "perfect love". Obey your Father who is in Heaven...do it as you so pray it be done..."on Earth, as it IS IN HEAVEN."

I only give Choleric an ear to "protect the people". I always knew I would never be able to convince him of truth. Only the Spirit of Yah can do that. All we can do is "expose"...and as you can see, the unrighteous...the "lawless one"s, they provide the opportunities for their own exposure, they are deluded into pointing at themselves with their own false accusations of others. So, we should all learn from this.

Choleric can be proud, I learned about him...from him. Now I can let him keep pointing at himself, and thank him for exposing what could easily have happened to me, and was. But because of seeing Choleric, I looked at my own faults much deeper, and sought out the truth of the matters. And pray that all of our eyes be opened, and that we all return to the Torah of Yah. IT IS TRUTH. And it was made flesh. And now we all know how to be "brother sister or mother" to the Messiah Yahu'Shua (Jesus the Christ), and it is by "doing the Fathers will"! And that "will" is His Torah!!!!!!! THAT is the "power" we have been given, "to BECOME son's of God"!

Praise be to the Names of Yah and Yahu'Shua! May they be blessed! And you who "DO" believe...May your names be written in the Lambs Book of Life.

Shabbat Shalom.

Choleric
October 13th, 2012, 05:16 PM
3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Lon
October 15th, 2012, 01:42 AM
The 'greater context' is a lesser one, actually.


Looks like you've made up your mind on that point.
Either "Scripture said it and I believe it" or your truth is relative.
Once you open your mind to the possibility that truth has a greater context, it is no longer truth. That is, once an absolute is settled, there i no other context - end of story/end of discussion.
"I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, No one comes to the Father except by Me," is one of those.


Appreciation noted, - I just shared the more pure metaphysical position and philosophical context of looking at things from a 'non-dual' point of view,....that acknowledges the unicity behind all things, that 'being' and 'consciousness' is a homogenous whole, and all is connected within this matrix of Life, whose essence is energy-awareness.
Anything outside of the complete context of truth, is mixing lies and settling happily. This is your philosophy and your world. Dualism means excrement has a 'separate' place than my living quarters. That's dualism.
Dualism means 'my sin' is not okay. That's dualism. In your world, it is okay if the fly lands in crap and then lights on your dinner plate. That's not dualism. Our very philosophies collide against each other.


Leaving religious beliefs and opinions asides...
That's fairly dualistic of you. Isn't it rather that you want to choose what you will have a duality of mind about? In other words, it is impossible, let alone unproductive, to try and deny what is there in front of you. You are a duality conundrum because of sin. You cannot meditate it away. Truth doesn't allow that. There is no 'greater' truth. You are trying to redefine it. That's called "a...?" I'm sure it will come to you, regardless of desire to deny. By your own definition (and mine) this fact is true.

...when the mind is still....there is always this primordial underlying 'beingness' that is whole in its nature, yet includes the passing perceptions of forms and appearances. The 'things' that arise in consciousness....come and go....but the pure awareness at the Heart of all, does not 'come' or 'go'. A 'duality' would imply we are 'seperate' from 'God' or 'this' or 'that',...but there is only this ocean of pure awareness. 'That' in which the world arises....is 'God'. It is the origin and support of that is and ever will be.
No problem with relaxing and looking for a broader picture, however, there is no greater context than the truth itself. It cannot be adulterated else it becomes that lie, I've been speaking of. Our rendition isn't accurate, but God's is. You are attempting to blur those lines: God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all. You cannot bring a greater context to these truths when God sets it for you in dualistic terms. You are lying to yourself and trying to get others to see the blurring of indelible lines. That, incidently is why most don't argue the point with you, you are too "esoteric" for most to address. I'll simply say here, I believe God Himself calls you wrong, so open-minded that other stuff gets in that isn't supposed to, 'nuff said'

I usually come from a 'base' of this recognition (as pure ontology/metaphysics), unless I'm commenting on particular religious subjects within a different context. I look at things from the vastness of space itself and see their 'context' and 'relationships', but recognize the primal substratum in which this world-play is taking place in the mind as it 'interprets' things influenced by various conditioning.
God is made for this. In the Garden, perhaps man could have been this open minded because there was no problem in the dualistic. It was dualistic ("don't eat from this tree") but man had no internal dilemma with it. Because of sin, you and I 1) cannot look objectively at the greater context without 100% failure (sin taints all) 2) are dualistic, whether you want to be or not. You cannot uncreate your sin condition nor just accept it and call it good. The whole problem with such is a desire to be married and connected to your sin condition. That too, was a problem in the Garden and God tossed the man and women out so they could not eat from the tree of Life. In essence, you are falling for the serpent's temptation all over again. Genesis 1-3 addresses your attempt rather starkly and clearly. Pay attention to God then, there is no 'greater' context, only an adulterated one (therefore lesser). You aren't broadening your mind, you are broadening your sin.


That verse can be variously translated. And even so,...it is propositional and only valid within a given context in as much as Jesus can somehow be a 'medium' or 'mediator' between a soul and 'God', according to one's 'faith' and the 'mechanics' of one's theology.
That's that "lesser context" speaking again. Just as in the Garden: "You will not surely die, you will become gods..." Wake up from the vast kettle of your stupor.


Where God is the one all-pervading, omnipresent, timeless reality....there is no distance, space or time to traverse to get to God, since God is "all-ready, always available".
Exit (remove) sin. It has no place in this universe.


Jesus when speaking, was using himself naturally as a 'focal-point' of truth, revealing 'God' to them. He wasnt 'wrong' but pointing to himself as the expression and embodiment of 'God' in their very midst. One full of God and radiating pure God-consciousness can do the same.
And again..."You will be like gods." You are judging His text, rather than being judged by it and Him. Once you begin to tell God what He means rather than He telling you what He means, "that is the dark path that leads to hate" - Yoda.



Not necessarily. In a more liberal all-inclusive sense, that might be true, if souls are earnest in their quest for truth, and truly come into a true valuing of 'God'...because that 'attraction' naturally affords its affection.
A denial of dualism is a pos-rep toward a 'greater' enlightenment.
I believe strongly, it is adulterated truth. Truth adulterated with anything else, is no longer true.



Again, a matter of 'interpretation' and how one applies such within a given context. The omnipresence of 'God' entails its own fullness, here, now. There is no 'getting' to what already is HERE as Spirit.
Yes there is. Again, you are marrying sin. I am denying it. My flesh is weak, but my spirit is willing, therefore I live with a duality. You do too, you are just choosing to make up your own as the 'god' of your own universe. A simple disagreement with Choleric here, is dualistic. You are just rejecting one and making up another of your own that 'you can live with.' It is yet dualistic and here is the kicker: unless you are God, you cannot escape dualism. You are as infected by sin as any man that walked the earth. That's why, I believe, Jesus had to be God.


Consider the cultural context here, and how that other 'gods' were any deities outside of the revealed law and precepts of 'YHWH', so that any 'god' outside the tribe was an 'idol' or false god. The Jewish law points out that 'God' is One and Incorporeal,...so any graven or fashioned image, or a deity-concept different to the revealed one in their tradition...was not to be worshipped. Remember,...'YHWH' is a jealous 'God' by his own admission. The Jewish concept of God as monotheistic still holds in its essence, as an incorporeal One....no matter if one supposes a 'Godhead' within that unity or not, as defined later in Christian theology.
This is dualistic as well ("us" "them"). You cannot escape it no matter how hard you try. For you it is impossible "but with God, all things are possible."


Not really, if my theology is all-inclusive :) - 'Unitarian' and 'Trinitarian' are just two primary views on God/Jesus among other less popular ones within Christian theology.
You are dualistic whether you see it or not. Eastern religions are too, whether they recongize it or not. That's the real irony...




But from a non-dual perspective, if 'God' is an all-pervading universal reality, there is no 'getting' to 'God', although one may adopt a theology or religious tradition that can assist them in relating to God. Some use the Bible (compounded with a NT attached), others the Torah only, Gnostic scriptures, Vedas/Upanishads/Gita, various Sutras, the Tao Te Ching, the Koran, the Avesta, various other religious texts, not to mention many modern day schools and channeled writings. Apparently 'God' makes all these available within the freedom of consciousness.

pj
Exactly so. It is the lie of the Garden. It is the promise "...will be like god."

jeremysdemo
October 16th, 2012, 03:55 PM
See there you go again (putting words into my mouth).
How is referring to a passage were Paul says if the gospel is furthered because of his lie should it counted as a sin calling him a liar?:rotfl: THere you go again trying to play dumb after making a blatant statement that you thought Paul lied.
If memory serves me correct I was asked if I thought Paul lied, my answer to this was "He said he did" followed by the passage we have been discussing.
In any event, if that is truly what you beleive of me, there is really no biblical reason to be laughing at what you perceive as my sin, certainly not aloud with that icon, Paul treaches this,

1 Corinthians 13:6
Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

I want you to think of some of the history behind Paul and what he claimed to be to others (a Jew and a Pharisee from the tribe of Benjamin, taught under Gamaliel) in order to gain an audience or credit in the synogagues such a claim would be common place even if it was not entirely true.

was this the lie he said that furthered the gospel that should not be counted as sin?

certainly something to consider, we have no historic confirmation of what he said to them in his speech in Acts 22:3......if one is considering those historical context that certainly is not calling Paul a liar when it comes to the gospel as he knew and preached it, in fact one can completely agree with Paul's gospel AND what he said about that mis-information/lie whatever you want to translate or interpret it as, which he came under attack for.

Romans 3:7KJV
For if the truth of God has more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?





how do you interpret that passage? or do you just use it to condemn people that talk about it?
I interpret it like everybody who doesn't think Paul was a heretic, he was speaking as his attackers were who were claiming that if sin glorified God who forgives sin, why am I yet a sinner? In other words, Paul's attackers were saying, "if forgiving sin glorifies GOd, and God wants to forgive sin, then why am I a sinner for doing something that allows GOd to be glorified?"
I did too at one time, only it does not make sense when read that way.
First of all, it wasn't others talking (at least in older translations) it was him, and he would not entertain people calling his gospel a lie or sin like that, he was very zealous for the gospel.
IT makes a lot more sense to read it as a rebuttal to those who questioned Pauls education as a Pharisee and lineage as a Jew that he claimed in Jerusalem, he alludes to that in the first passage Romans 1:1

you could do some research about Jewish law, more specifically Geneivat da'at, if you want to know more about that, and how such an act would have been perceived under Pharisitical tradition of the time.



No, it's "we all know where you stand, as we have repeatedly seen you attack Paul and plant seeds of dissimulation and doubt, the gig is up"
who is this "we"? so far you got you and chickman (which you got after the fact of accusing me, not before as the Torah and Paul say, 2 Corinthians 13:1,Deuteronomy 19:15).....

do you really beleive Paul? how about Y'shua? Matthew 18:16

you have not done any of the things in any of the order our Messiah and Paul say to do, I never knew chickeman agreed with you till two years after the fact of being on your "list" in fact not since a few days ago.......



I am not going to search again for your heresy and post it for you. At this point, it is your chance to openly repent.
as previously explained I cannot repent of something that was never in my heart, your ignorance of the NT and what I am saying about it does not constitue a sin on my part.
I beleive I have been consistent from day one in my profession of disagreeing with your accusation, so it seems it has been you who was unsuccesful in convincing me of the evil you say I have done, tho I do understand how you have been reading my words all these years (out of ignorance and maybe some fear of the implications) only because I lived that way for a long time myself, and was probably more zealous and unlearned in that respect.




I see putting your own stipulations on your own repentance how very godly of you.

If I could save you trust me I would but you are not the dictator here you are an equal in God's eyes anyway.

It is for your own good that I do not bend to your foolishness, I hope some day God opens your eyes in that respect.
God said I should forgive you if you repent. Surely you realize that is in the bible. And I will, if you repent.
Epic fail,

my above statements are about your repentance, not mine.

I find it concerning when a person cannot fathom the possibility they can be wrong to the point they cannot see the plank in their eye, Matthew 7:3.


I don't remember causing any division here, you seem to be causing quite a bit tho.
I don't know what doctrine you have learned either and if it is the same as what Paul is reminding his listeners of to even know if anything I say is contrary, I do know the NT pretty well tho and nothing I say to my knowledge is contradictory to it, if it was I would be more than happy to repent of even suggesting it.
By causing doubt and planting seeds of dissent against half of the NT canon, you are indeed causing division. By reading your doubting and dissimulation, another person who is trusting God based on His word in Romans through Philemon, you can cause a person to question their faith. That is division and it is wrong. You may say "I am only asking questions" etc, but you are intentionally causing people to doubt the authenticity of Paul's writings.
if a persons faith is so weak it does not stand up to strutiny it may not be of God but of man, so nothing of any value will be lost, only His faith will weather the storms, lean not unto your own understanding comes to mind.....
That being said, nothing I have said (when understood in context) should discourage those of Godly faith, my questions are just as dangerous as Pauls letters to the unlearned, do you also condemn Peter for saying the same? 2 Peter 3:16, there is a reason for the warnings, and there is a reason we need to know the difference between authentic Godly faith and mans own spirit/faith/understanding.




God is a good shepherd, I have full confidence and faith in him to lead his sheep from harm.
that being said, it's clear you have all the zeal of the pre-converted Paul, what seems to be lacking (at least from our conversations) is scriptural knowledge which may be why you misunderstand a lot of what I say for something it is not.
God is indeed a good Shepherd. That is why in His word, He warns us about people like you and the rest on the list. God is very concerned about "false gospels" and it takes up quite a bit of the NT discussing this very topic and warning the church to stay away from it.

God was not kidding about it as you appear to assume.
As Peter says above the unlearned can take Pauls words and twist them to their own destruction.
This is exactly what a person does when they take one passage out of context (something that is adressed to a community and meant to be inacted by groups of elders in agreement with the Spirit) and make it their personal tool to commit sin (bearing false witness).



Please show me where the protocol is to allow some elder to be the only person who can recognize and deal with dissimulation and heresy?
Gladly, only that is not what I said, I didn't say "some elder singular" I said groups of elders comming into agreement.
Do you really need examples of that in the NT? do you really expect anyone here to beleive Paul went about setting up communities of beleivers without structure? like the other apostles had?


Paul wrote those letters to all believers in any church he wrote to. You should pick up your bible sometime and see it...Notice he doesn't start his epistles with "to the pastor and elders in ephesians"
your very statements confirm their were pastors and elders in the communites Paul wrote to, you agree with the NT go figure, and that there were protocols to be followed before marking anyone among them per his instruction, as with many of their community descisions it was not left to one mans dictatorship, it had to be confirmed by two or more witnesses prior to being done.

the intruction is to the brethren to be carried out in the manner in which the "brethren" learned, the same manner which Y'shua taught the apostles and Paul taught his disciples, not by individsuals acting alone to accuse and then later looking for collaboration.
If you are truly curious as to how these rabbi's taught to deal with disagreements and how they taught to deal with heresy within their communities you can begin with the scriptures given in this post and then move onto the rest of their teachings in the NT, keeping in mind that TOL is also a community of sorts.

keep shinin

jerm :cool:

Nick M
December 4th, 2012, 10:10 AM
You can add "surrender" to the list. godrulz couldn't have said it better.


.....Where is it written that Jesus died for future unrepentant sins?......The phrase “it is finished” says NOTHING about unrepentant sins being forgiven.

freelight
December 7th, 2012, 05:07 PM
The 'greater context' is a lesser one, actually.


Hi Lon,....that depends on point of view :)

This was a bit extensive so I skipped responding to it, but will skim over a few pointers.....



Either "Scripture said it and I believe it" or your truth is relative.
Once you open your mind to the possibility that truth has a greater context, it is no longer truth. That is, once an absolute is settled, there i no other context - end of story/end of discussion.
"I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, No one comes to the Father except by Me," is one of those.

Coming from a viewpiont that sees truth at two levels, both 'absolute' and 'relative', there is no problem here in seeing this seeming 'duality' in the greater context of total reality. Total reality includes all duality, multiplicity, appearances, illusions, perception, etc. 'Duality' is inevitable in a world of space-time relativity.

Jesus saying he was the way, truth and life, is a relative statement...for it can only be 'related' within the context of the writers intent and preconceived theology :)



Anything outside of the complete context of truth, is mixing lies and settling happily. This is your philosophy and your world. Dualism means excrement has a 'separate' place than my living quarters. That's dualism.
Dualism means 'my sin' is not okay. That's dualism. In your world, it is okay if the fly lands in crap and then lights on your dinner plate. That's not dualism. Our very philosophies collide against each other.

My former statement holds.



That's fairly dualistic of you. Isn't it rather that you want to choose what you will have a duality of mind about? In other words, it is impossible, let alone unproductive, to try and deny what is there in front of you. You are a duality conundrum because of sin. You cannot meditate it away. Truth doesn't allow that. There is no 'greater' truth. You are trying to redefine it. That's called "a...?" I'm sure it will come to you, regardless of desire to deny. By your own definition (and mine) this fact is true.

You're assuming according to your own definition of 'sin' and interjecting the concept where it is unnecessary.



God is made for this. In the Garden, perhaps man could have been this open minded because there was no problem in the dualistic. It was dualistic ("don't eat from this tree") but man had no internal dilemma with it. Because of sin, you and I 1) cannot look objectively at the greater context without 100% failure (sin taints all) 2) are dualistic, whether you want to be or not. You cannot uncreate your sin condition nor just accept it and call it good. The whole problem with such is a desire to be married and connected to your sin condition. That too, was a problem in the Garden and God tossed the man and women out so they could not eat from the tree of Life. In essence, you are falling for the serpent's temptation all over again. Genesis 1-3 addresses your attempt rather starkly and clearly. Pay attention to God then, there is no 'greater' context, only an adulterated one (therefore lesser). You aren't broadening your mind, you are broadening your sin.

Going on about 'sin' again.......



That's that "lesser context" speaking again. Just as in the Garden: "You will not surely die, you will become gods..." Wake up from the vast kettle of your stupor.

And they did not die physically, but were enlightened to know both good and evil, an essential cognitive ability that enables true learning and progressive evolution. So they did become 'gods' in a sense. In one Gnostic perspective,...Sophia (divine wisdom) posed as the snake luring the couple to accept their divine birthright and liberate themselves from the captivity of the Demiurge (Yhwh). The Demiuge did not want the couple to recognize their true divine potential, but strangely tempted them into making the forbidden fruit more appealing, an odd tactic to say the least.

Also note Jesus quotes from the Psalms affirming that 'God' calls men 'gods', and that such a reference to 'elohim' is a proper title for the children of God, or a son of God such as himself. Therefore they persecuting him for being called the Son of God was unjustified. Being created in the same image and likeness of 'God' and possessing the same cognitive and creative powers of a parent Deity has its 'entitlement' ;)



Exit (remove) sin. It has no place in this universe.

Still going on about 'sin'......



And again..."You will be like gods." You are judging His text, rather than being judged by it and Him.

Yes, I usually interpret a text in a way most logically comprehensible within its context. I have that right and responsiblity. 'God' gave it to me.


Once you begin to tell God what He means rather than He telling you what He means, "that is the dark path that leads to hate" - Yoda.

Its not a matter of me telling a so called 'God' anything, but using my own God-intelligence to define a matter.

As far as quoting Yoda,...didnt you know I'm a charter member of the Jedi Council? - love the little guy. My path has never included hatred, so it goes without saying with its fruits, what frequency level my position hails from. Remember,....'God' is pure LIGHT. - naturally in a world of duality, ...there appears to be 'good' and 'evil' (light & shadow)...hence the existence of a so called 'darkside'. But you know that the existence of 'evil' exists because a so called 'good' does, and God's omnipresence includes or allows BOTH to appear in a world where there is 'relativity'. Duality arises as a phenomena within the Infinite One. - such is the way of 'perception'.



Yes there is. Again, you are marrying sin. I am denying it. My flesh is weak, but my spirit is willing, therefore I live with a duality. You do too, you are just choosing to make up your own as the 'god' of your own universe. A simple disagreement with Choleric here, is dualistic. You are just rejecting one and making up another of your own that 'you can live with.' It is yet dualistic and here is the kicker: unless you are God, you cannot escape dualism. You are as infected by sin as any man that walked the earth. That's why, I believe, Jesus had to be God.

To the bold above....you're getting warm :) - the 'God-presence' in me is prior to and transcends any dualism whatsoever, since it is pure God, before any association, duality or relativity. It is pure 'light' beyond definition or conditioning. Where there is not two (which is what "Advaita" {non-duality} means)...there is only 'God'. 'God' is that one universal non-dual reality behind all appearances of duality. 'God' is the prior reality before any concept of 'sin' or sense of 'seperation'. The ego has seperated itself by its own illusion of seperation.



This is dualistic as well ("us" "them"). You cannot escape it no matter how hard you try. For you it is impossible "but with God, all things are possible."

Oh dear. Of course its impossible in this dimension of existence and language-medium to relate anything that is not more or less 'dualistic' because all in this space-time dimension is more or less 'relative',...it is a world of relations, appearances, forms, objectivity and subjectivity,...a seeming duality of 'observer' and 'observed', 'this' or 'that', 'up' and 'down', 'light' and 'dark', 'me' and 'you', etc. This is a world of plural perceptions, distortion, maya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_(illusion)).



You are dualistic whether you see it or not. Eastern religions are too, whether they recongize it or not. That's the real irony...

:) Assumptions. I may start a new 'Non-Duality' thread, - its important to understand the essence of 'Advaita', and realize that oneness of Being at the Heart of all, the 'Self'. 'Brahman' is 'Atman', there is no seperation. This is of course from that point of view, as one abides as the unborn, undying, unchanging essence within. That 'presence' is 'God' (Brahman/atman). This is the central view of the Advaita Vedanta (http://www.advaita-vedanta.org/avhp/) school. There is ONLY that PRESENCE. It is not only 'One' but 'All'.

There are more 'dualistic' schools within Hinduism that are more like judeo-christian understandings of the relationship between God and souls (being seperate, uniquely different in certain respects, while alike in others), etc. One who studies such will recognize and discern the differences, where these are 'assumed' anyways.



Exactly so. It is the lie of the Garden. It is the promise "...will be like god."

My former statement stands :) - God makes all available or possible. This is a truth. How do you know, besides a religious assumption or 'belief' that a lie was told in the Garden? Have you cared to research it again? or have you the final ultimate conclusion on it and everything else? Research can do wonders.

As far as becoming like 'God',....isnt this the ultimate, most respectful, noble and inspiring ideal to strive towards??? Didn't Jesus say to be 'perfect' as our Heavenly Father is 'perfect'? Doesn't God want us to strive towards excellence, progress, growth, integrity, unfolding our divine potential, our capacity for creation, our experience of joy and happiness, to share in His divine nature? If you think of eternity and infinity....there is an endless vista of Life and realities beyond our imagination over every horizon point. Infinity has no finish. In Reality, there is no beginning or end. Only we assign time-points to anything that 'comes' and 'goes'...being 'events' as they arise. But what is that in which they arise..that never comes or goes? :)


Namaste,


pj

Pierac
December 7th, 2012, 09:43 PM
I see Satan, Inc is still allowed to rule here!!! :rolleyes:


:Poly::sherlock:
Paul

freelight
December 7th, 2012, 10:39 PM
I see Satan, Inc is still allowed to rule here!!! :rolleyes:


:Poly::sherlock:
Paul

Well, as it stands....the contest between 'satan' and 'God' continues, but whose 'rule' is gaining the upperhand depends on the observer :cool:

Heretics have a special advantage over dogmatists, being always free to choose whatever way, path, school or tradition that best resonates with their soul-journey at any given time. Such an 'attraction' is only natural, as far as cosmic law goes. God grants freedom to choose.

In the OT Satan is God's servant, so in that light, not so bad a 'side' to be on :)



pj

Lon
December 8th, 2012, 11:29 AM
Well, as it stands....the contest between 'satan' and 'God' continues, but whose 'rule' is gaining the upperhand depends on the observer :cool:

Heretics have a special advantage over dogmatists, being always free to choose whatever way, path, school or tradition that best resonates with their soul-journey at any given time. Such an 'attraction' is only natural, as far as cosmic law goes. God grants freedom to choose.
The gospel prescribes a 'new creation.' The old man will always go his own way.


In the OT Satan is God's servant, so in that light, not so bad a 'side' to be on :)
pj
You sound just a little like a caricature of a Calvinist here, oddly enough. That's very dogmatic of you.

Lon
December 8th, 2012, 12:20 PM
Hi Lon,....that depends on point of view :)
The old man will look at it one way. One who is a new creation Ephesian 2:10, will look at it differently, by necessity. Because of this, I worry about you because it is true and there is no greater context here either.


This was a bit extensive so I skipped responding to it, but will skim over a few pointers.....
It repeats somewhat too, the echo's of the post were: 1) no greater context than a complete truth 2) we all must live with duality, we all have things we accept and reject 3) God speaks to us in absolute terms on a good many issues 4) it is not good to be a cosmic thinker (as differentiated from a universalist and it's separate complications) if our sin condition is packed for the trip too.


Coming from a viewpiont that sees truth at two levels, both 'absolute' and 'relative', there is no problem here in seeing this seeming 'duality' in the greater context of total reality. Total reality includes all duality, multiplicity, appearances, illusions, perception, etc. 'Duality' is inevitable in a world of space-time relativity.
Duality is the difference between what we accept and what we reject. Because we are cursed by the first Adam, we are drowning in sin and need a Savior to pull us out. He creates a duality in giving us His nature.


Jesus saying he was the way, truth and life, is a relative statement...for it can only be 'related' within the context of the writers intent and preconceived theology :)
I disagree for He continued..."no one comes to the Father but by me!"


My former statement .
See the difference between His statement and your's, here? One is relative and the other is absolute.


You're assuming according to your own definition of 'sin' and interjecting the concept where it is [I]unnecessary.
Being one to traipse the cosmos, I believe you could and should have dealt substantially here. It was a philosophical invitation and an open door which you promptly closed. Forgive a slight :chuckle: from me. The irony muse hit me.


Going on about 'sin' again.......
Forgive me yet another chuckle, I just can't help myself:

This was a bit extensive so I skipped responding to it, but will skim over a few pointers.....
Hopefully, you are doing a :chuckle: over this irony too (it might be your way of ignoring/skipping, I just tend to cut it out with an intial sentence at the beginning saying so, so my chuckle is a bit of projection here)


And they did not die physically, but were enlightened to know both good and evil, an essential cognitive ability that enables true learning and progressive evolution. So they did become 'gods' in a sense. In one Gnostic perspective,...Sophia (divine wisdom) posed as the snake luring the couple to accept their divine birthright and liberate themselves from the captivity of the Demiurge (Yhwh). The Demiuge did not want the couple to recognize their true divine potential, but strangely tempted them into making the forbidden fruit more appealing, an odd tactic to say the least.
I wouldn't call knowing how to sin 'enlightened.' Also, they indeed did die physically. Picking at this is nearly the same as a debate about dying 'instantly.' It doesn't have to be this instant or even the next instant but it should be in close proximately. Adam and Eve surely died.
The gnostics didn't have to rewrite it with sophia because it is still the same story and only confuses. Rather, it is whether this was a good thing or a bad thing in interpretation. As such, it needs no rewrite.



Also note Jesus quotes from the Psalms affirming that 'God' calls men 'gods', and that such a reference to 'elohim' is a proper title for the children of God, or a son of God such as himself. Therefore they persecuting him for being called the Son of God was unjustified. Being created in the same image and likeness of 'God' and possessing the same cognitive and creative powers of a parent Deity has its 'entitlement' ;)

If I were an elohim, then I've lost all hope. The hope of all of scripture is that God is working to fix our dilemma and make us like Him 1 John 3:1-3


Still going on about 'sin'......
Still funny, but why wouldn't I? It is the mark of dualism for me. I do not want a universe where sin is still present there within me. To miss this is to miss the entire gospel story.


Yes, I usually interpret a text in a way most logically comprehensible within its context. I have that right and responsiblity. 'God' gave it to me.
It is frustrating talking to a universalist at times....this is one of them.


Jesus when speaking, was using himself naturally as a 'focal-point' of truth, revealing 'God' to them. He wasnt 'wrong' but pointing to himself as the expression and embodiment of 'God' in their very midst. One full of God and radiating pure God-consciousness can do the same.
This creates a 'you as good as Jesus' frustration between clashing philosphies. We are entitled to our own opinions but not entitled to our own facts. 1) You have to play nice with others else the discussion isn't the same one between those disagreeing 2) You have to recognize others' truths even if you've rejected them 3) Then meet the objection in a meaningful way else it is seen as idiocy.

That said, I see where you are coming from but I believe you have to negate scripture in order to entertain your conclusion and that alone will keep this part of the debate from proceeding. The rest of us see a distinct and stark contrast between ourselves and the Christ who was with God and was God. In my sin condition, I was neither with nor was. As a new creation, I am 'with' but not Him (pre-debate explanations).


Its not a matter of me telling a so called 'God' anything, but using my own God-intelligence to define a matter.
"So-called?" How far away are you, PJ?
There are times I wonder you are here rather than a Jonathan Livingstone Seagull forum.


As far as quoting Yoda,...didnt you know I'm a charter member of the Jedi Council? - love the little guy. My path has never included hatred, so it goes without saying with its fruits, what frequency level my position hails from. Remember,....'God' is pure LIGHT. - naturally in a world of duality, ...there appears to be 'good' and 'evil' (light & shadow)...hence the existence of a so called 'darkside'. But you know that the existence of 'evil' exists because a so called 'good' does, and God's omnipresence includes or allows BOTH to appear in a world where there is 'relativity'. Duality arises as a phenomena within the Infinite One. - such is the way of 'perception'.
You can't get more dualistic than Yoda...
The message of Star Wars: "I wanted people to know there is a God and a Devil. That there is good and evil, and you have to choose between the two." -George Lucas



To the bold above....you're getting warm :) - the 'God-presence' in me is prior to and transcends any dualism whatsoever, since it is pure God, before any association, duality or relativity. It is pure 'light' beyond definition or conditioning. Where there is not two (which is what "Advaita" {non-duality} means)...there is only 'God'. 'God' is that one universal non-dual reality behind all appearances of duality. 'God' is the prior reality before any concept of 'sin' or sense of 'seperation'. The ego has seperated itself by its own illusion of seperation.
Er...if you are God, I'm turning in my membership card. Please don't feel too slighted, I'd just be incredibly disappointed. Prophet Lorenzo Snow said "As God is man will become, as man is God once was." I wouldn't be a Mormon for 30 million dollars. Now you are giving me another god to follow? I'm no god. I will die because of sin.


Oh dear. Of course its impossible in this dimension of existence and language-medium to relate anything that is not more or less 'dualistic' because all in this space-time dimension is more or less 'relative',...it is a world of relations, appearances, forms, objectivity and subjectivity,...a seeming duality of 'observer' and 'observed', 'this' or 'that', 'up' and 'down', 'light' and 'dark', 'me' and 'you', etc. This is a world of plural perceptions, distortion, maya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_(illusion)).
The point again: My dualism and your dualism are two different things.
Another way of saying it: For the trip, you are packing different items. The fight is because I deem the items you are packing offensive and giving off a stench.


:) Assumptions. I may start a new 'Non-Duality' thread, - its important to understand the essence of 'Advaita', and realize that oneness of Being at the Heart of all, the 'Self'. 'Brahman' is 'Atman', there is no seperation. This is of course from that point of view, as one abides as the unborn, undying, unchanging essence within. That 'presence' is 'God' (Brahman/atman). This is the central view of the Advaita Vedanta (http://www.advaita-vedanta.org/avhp/) school. There is ONLY that PRESENCE. It is not only 'One' but 'All'.
Hopefully you are seeing some familiarity from me, that I understand where you are coming from. The problem that I see, is, in your universal approach, you are adopting a broader picture and context "for me (too)" that I reject.

There are more 'dualistic' schools within Hinduism that are more like judeo-christian understandings of the relationship between God and souls (being seperate, uniquely different in certain respects, while alike in others), etc. One who studies such will recognize and discern the differences, where these are 'assumed' anyways.
You've kind of cut 'sin' out of our discussions. In so doing, that is trying to place me into that "broader" context. I reject that as marrying up to a lie. A gray world holds no appeal for me.




My former statement stands :) - God makes all available or possible. This is a truth. How do you know, besides a religious assumption or 'belief' that a lie was told in the Garden? Have you cared to research it again? or have you the final ultimate conclusion on it and everything else? Research can do wonders.
Again, it is not okay if a fly with crap on his feet lands on my sandwich.


As far as becoming like 'God',....isnt this the ultimate, most respectful, noble and inspiring ideal to strive towards??? Didn't Jesus say to be 'perfect' as our Heavenly Father is 'perfect'? Doesn't God want us to strive towards excellence, progress, growth, integrity, unfolding our divine potential, our capacity for creation, our experience of joy and happiness, to share in His divine nature? If you think of eternity and infinity....there is an endless vista of Life and realities beyond our imagination over every horizon point. Infinity has no finish. In Reality, there is no beginning or end. Only we assign time-points to anything that 'comes' and 'goes'...being 'events' as they arise. But what is that in which they arise..that never comes or goes? :)
Again, not if it means eating tainted food. A true universalist wouldn't care.


Namaste,

pj
Aloha

freelight
December 8th, 2012, 02:58 PM
The gospel prescribes a 'new creation.' The old man will always go his own way.


Its all relative, in this dimension of existence. How often do you follow after your 'new creation' nature or your old man? :) - kinda stuck in the good ole 'free will' conundrum ;)



You sound just a little like a caricature of a Calvinist here, oddly enough. That's very dogmatic of you.

Ha! I'm far from a calvinist, - I was just bringing up the 'fact' of satan's account from the Book of Job,....satan appears to be just another one of Yahweh's servants....ultimately serving his purpose, while Job is like a 'pawn' suffering at the hand of higher agencies. Doesn't make 'God' out in a very good light.

A-dogmatically yours lol,



pj

Lon
December 8th, 2012, 03:47 PM
Its all relative, in this dimension of existence. How often do you follow after your 'new creation' nature or your old man? :) - kinda stuck in the good ole 'free will' conundrum ;)

I don't see it as 'free.' A culpable will? Yes. Free? No.




Ha! I'm far from a calvinist, - I was just bringing up the 'fact' of satan's account from the Book of Job,....satan appears to be just another one of Yahweh's servants.
Try something else besides 'servant.' Subjected to? Yes. Servant? Not really, no.


...ultimately serving his purpose, while Job is like a 'pawn' suffering at the hand of higher agencies. Doesn't make 'God' out in a very good light.
Just like flour, sifting doesn't do damage, it prepares. Some of us are more resilient than others. God knowing which is which is a bit beyond your 'good light' impression.

A-dogmatically yours lol,

pj
Oh no, you are dogmatic alright. A changed goalpost is still a goalpost.
Your consistency here rather than on a Jonathan Livingstone Seagull forum is evidence enough of that fact.

freelight
December 8th, 2012, 04:11 PM
Er...if you are God, I'm turning in my membership card. Please don't feel too slighted, I'd just be incredibly disappointed.

You're not understanding the essence of what 'non-duality' is, this is essential, grasping or intuiting what the Oneness of Life and Being is. All is contextualized and arises in this One all-pervading Consciousness.

What is non-duality? (http://www.nondualityinstitute.org/What-Is-Nonduality.html)

What is non-duality? 2 (http://endless-satsang.com/advaita-nonduality-oneness.htm)

Non-Duality definitions (http://www.nonduality.com/whatis.htm)

For a broader eclectic view see 'Non-dualism' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nondualism)in general.

Notice the comment you're responding merely stated that 'God' (Consciousness) is all there is,....'God' is all that exists...and nothing exists outside of the One Universal Consciousness. I did not claim that "I" (this little ego-personality) is God, but that pure 'essence' and 'awareness' that is the true living nature of existence itself, ...is 'God'. - its important to recognize the differences between what is 'God' and what is not 'God'. All is included in 'God' because it could not exist or 'be' outside of 'God'. The true nature and light at the heart of all existence...is God Alone (Brahman) because there is no 'other' besides that ONE.

I have never claimed that the personality that has assumed itself as 'me' (this finite, human, evolutionary mortal) is 'God'. It is an extension, modification, expression, shadowy semblence of 'God' arising as a temporary form or assumption of various attributes and traits,...but this 'form' is impermanent. Only 'God' is the pure life, essence and being, the only unchanging reality behind all change. Changes, attributes, qualities, forms are accidents or properties undergoing transformation. Behind the play of creation, One Energy or Spirit-presence, One Infinite Intelligence prevails.



Prophet Lorenzo Snow said "As God is man will become, as man is God once was." I wouldn't be a Mormon for 30 million dollars.

I recently treated the LDS concept of 'God' on this page Here (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86085&page=8). :)

We are on a progressive journey of experience and learning, for thats what Life is all about...at least to us evolutionary mortals moving Godwards to a higher perfection and integrity of being. The concept of 'eternal progression' is therefore logical,....but I dont hold the LDS concept of it as valid. If you didnt know, I grew up LDS and studied all the so-called anti-mormon literature, checking the facts for myself, which inspired my exodus from that 'cult-ure'.


Now you are giving me another god to follow? I'm no god.

I am not giving you anything, because 'God' the ever-present reality, cant be given, because it is never absent :)


I will die because of sin.

Sigh. Back to 'sin' again :idunno: I'm quite familiar with what might make one obssessive over the subject, since their 'theology' so focuses on the 'necessity' of salvation from it. Sin is a concept, an 'assumption', and varies in definition. 'Sin' is a sense of seperation, a missing of the mark of perfecetion, a falling short of truth, a distorted perception of reality. If 'God' already is the perfect all-complete, whole (holy) Presence that is always BEING...then realization of 'that' is 'salvation' already always at hand :)

'God' right here, right NOW...is already wholly perfect, true and complete, eternally and infinitely so! The 'I Am' Presence ever reigns.
To understand more on the 'I AM'...see it from the ascended master teachings, - I had a former thread on this. Looks like some new threads will be coming forth soon to replenish the others.

What would TOL be without her premiere heretics to keep the fundies on their toes? :crackup:


In-joy,



pj

freelight
December 8th, 2012, 04:46 PM
Oh no, you are dogmatic alright. A changed goalpost is still a goalpost.

Consciousness is all there is....dab any 'name' on it you wish :)

'God' is a word-concept as well.

Goalposts will vary depending on the scope or aim of the observer....term-wise and contextually speaking.

One man's hero is another man's heretic, and then in some quaters, there is no difference between the two :)



pj

Lon
December 8th, 2012, 10:06 PM
Consciousness is all there is....dab any 'name' on it you wish :)

'God' is a word-concept as well.

Goalposts will vary depending on the scope or aim of the observer....term-wise and contextually speaking.

One man's hero is another man's heretic, and then in some quaters, there is no difference between the two :)



pj
Again, different goalpost.

Lon
December 8th, 2012, 10:26 PM
You're not understanding the essence of what 'non-duality' is, this is essential, grasping or intuiting what the Oneness of Life and Being is. All is contextualized and arises in this One all-pervading Consciousness.

What is non-duality? (http://www.nondualityinstitute.org/What-Is-Nonduality.html)

What is non-duality? 2 (http://endless-satsang.com/advaita-nonduality-oneness.htm)

Non-Duality definitions (http://www.nonduality.com/whatis.htm)

For a broader eclectic view see 'Non-dualism' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nondualism)in general.

Notice the comment you're responding merely stated that 'God' (Consciousness) is all there is,....'God' is all that exists...and nothing exists outside of the One Universal Consciousness. I did not claim that "I" (this little ego-personality) is God, but that pure 'essence' and 'awareness' that is the true living nature of existence itself, ...is 'God'. - its important to recognize the differences between what is 'God' and what is not 'God'. Again, this is duality. It might not be duality as you understand it, but it is as I understand it, and these two philosophies aren't compatible. Other than that, you will recognize why you get into trouble with your talk of elohim-men. Scripture does say 'gods' but we must be extra-careful and not careless in bringing that idea into any conversation anywhere, for any reason, lest we are accused of overstatements. Lorenzo Snow, of course, embraced that overstatement as true, so it is obviously an overstatement we both recognize and should avoid.



All is included in 'God' because it could not exist or 'be' outside of 'God'. The true nature and light at the heart of all existence...is God Alone (Brahman) because there is no 'other' besides that ONE.Scripture agrees but sin isn't an existence but a privation (a void and lack).


I have never claimed that the personality that has assumed itself as 'me' (this finite, human, evolutionary mortal) is 'God'. It is an extension, modification, expression, shadowy semblence of 'God' arising as a temporary form or assumption of various attributes and traits,...but this 'form' is impermanent. Only 'God' is the pure life, essence and being, the only unchanging reality behind all change. Changes, attributes, qualities, forms are accidents or properties undergoing transformation. Behind the play of creation, One Energy or Spirit-presence, One Infinite Intelligence prevails.
Not only that, we are plagued by sin and in desperate need of intervention. Just like illness is a lack of health. It isn't good. That's duality.





I recently treated the LDS concept of 'God' on this page Here (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86085&page=8). :)

We are on a progressive journey of experience and learning, for thats what Life is all about...at least to us evolutionary mortals moving Godwards to a higher perfection and integrity of being. The concept of 'eternal progression' is therefore logical,....but I dont hold the LDS concept of it as valid. If you didnt know, I grew up LDS and studied all the so-called anti-mormon literature, checking the facts for myself, which inspired my exodus from that 'cult-ure'.
Again, for me, 1 John 3:1-3 is the answer. We are learning something here on earth but it is in preparation for being like Him, then. It is a temporal fix to our eternal need.


I am not giving you anything, because 'God' the ever-present reality, cant be given, because it is never absent :)
:doh: I meant myself. God exists and I'm not Him.



Sigh. Back to 'sin' again :idunno: I'm quite familiar with what might make one obssessive over the subject, since their 'theology' so focuses on the 'necessity' of salvation from it.
It is a 'biblical' view, as "in the Bible." Our malady is sin and only a removal of it will allow us to be what we were created to be. Read 1 John 3:1-3 for yourself. It is my hope. Until then, I'm stuck with sin and no 'enlightenment' is going to take care of that for me. Jesus is the only answer to our dilemma, whether you want to recognize it or not. You are one day for the grave and no amount of Jonathan Livingstone Seagull is going to help you out of that.


Sin is a concept, an 'assumption', and varies in definition. 'Sin' is a sense of seperation, a missing of the mark of perfecetion, a falling short of truth, a distorted perception of reality. If 'God' already is the perfect all-complete, whole (holy) Presence that is always BEING...then realization of 'that' is 'salvation' already always at hand :)
See above. It is a malady that kills us. We don't 'get better' we must have it removed, like a cancer.



'God' right here, right NOW...is already wholly perfect, true and complete, eternally and infinitely so! The 'I Am' Presence ever reigns.
To understand more on the 'I AM'...see it from the ascended master teachings, - I had a former thread on this. Looks like some new threads will be coming forth soon to replenish the others.

1 John 3 again, not 'until' such a time.

What would TOL be without her premiere heretics to keep the fundies on their toes? :crackup:

In-joy,

pj
Or vice versa, which is why I suspect you aren't spending most of your time on the Jonathan Livingstone Seagull forums.

freelight
December 8th, 2012, 10:41 PM
Again, different goalpost.


So?

Since I come from a platform and context of 'non-dualism' and a metaphysic of God's omnipresence (call it meta-pantheism, or pure spiritualism), that 'context' includes all that is within God's Presence, since that Presence is All There Is. Its universal context is unqualified, yet that space in which all qualifications or definitions emerge in the world of form, where various points of view assume themselves.

This infinite Emptiness....is also infinite Fullness...there is no difference but only in assumption or appearance. The One is All There Is, and 'this' Presence is it! Full stop, NOW. There is no outside or inside to this Presence, since it pervades all dimensions....while also being undimensional :) Mind-blowing eh? (goalposts fade into nothingness in this context)

In any case,....if we are talking specifically Chrsitian theology or doctrines I hold my own there, but I dont limit myself to those confines or definitions,...they are fine if you are limiting yourself only to that 'context' of so called 'biblical' theology or assuming a right teaching or doctrine (orthodoxy).






pj

freelight
December 8th, 2012, 11:10 PM
You are one day for the grave and no amount of Jonathan Livingstone Seagull is going to help you out of that.




Sorry Lon, but I'm not really a Jonathan Livingstone Seagull fan or reader even...neither do I frequent such forums. Thats somewhat presumptuous of you to assume. TOL has been my primary discussion forum for some time. - there have been a few other theology forums in the past and some Hindu(dharma) networks I periodically check into, among other cosmic connections :) (and thats just for starters)

The physical body does return to the matterial elements, but the spirit-soul goes to that realm that is consonant with its spiritual condition, development or character, to continue its progression Godward, to higher perfections, universe service, or merging into the Godhead itself (different beliefs on this).


pj

Lon
December 10th, 2012, 06:46 PM
So?

Since I come from a platform and context of 'non-dualism' and a metaphysic of God's omnipresence (call it meta-pantheism, or pure spiritualism), that 'context' includes all that is within God's Presence, since that Presence is All There Is. Its universal context is unqualified, yet that space in which all qualifications or definitions emerge in the world of form, where various points of view assume themselves.

This infinite Emptiness....is also infinite Fullness...there is no difference but only in assumption or appearance. The One is All There Is, and 'this' Presence is it! Full stop, NOW. There is no outside or inside to this Presence, since it pervades all dimensions....while also being undimensional :) Mind-blowing eh? (goalposts fade into nothingness in this context)

In any case,....if we are talking specifically Chrsitian theology or doctrines I hold my own there, but I dont limit myself to those confines or definitions,...they are fine if you are limiting yourself only to that 'context' of so called 'biblical' theology or assuming a right teaching or doctrine (orthodoxy).

pj
I think that's just a polite way of saying "I reject your dualism."
It is simply switching goalposts. We exist trying to deny something, if it is Christianity, that's your burden. Mine is sin.

Lon
December 10th, 2012, 06:48 PM
Sorry Lon, but I'm not really a Jonathan Livingstone Seagull fan or reader even...neither do I frequent such forums. Thats somewhat presumptuous of you to assume. TOL has been my primary discussion forum for some time. - there have been a few other theology forums in the past and some Hindu(dharma) networks I periodically check into, among other cosmic connections :) (and thats just for starters)

The physical body does return to the matterial elements, but the spirit-soul goes to that realm that is consonant with its spiritual condition, development or character, to continue its progression Godward, to higher perfections, universe service, or merging into the Godhead itself (different beliefs on this).


pj
Not presumptuous at all. You've adopted Eastern Religion terms even. Jonathon Livingstone is about Nirvana and personal excellence in the form of a seagull learning to ascend above his peers and circumstances.

freelight
December 10th, 2012, 09:22 PM
I think that's just a polite way of saying "I reject your dualism."
It is simply switching goalposts. We exist trying to deny something, if it is Christianity, that's your burden. Mine is sin.

I dont exist to deny or reject anything, neither is my motive towards attacking anything per se, since all things exist by their own right, in contrast and in relation to all other things, whether they be 'objects' or 'ideas'. What is...is...and whatever may be....may be.

There is no burden then except what one assumes. If one wants to burden themselves with sin, however they interpret that, such is their choice (one chooses their theology or 'beliefs').


Not presumptuous at all. You've adopted Eastern Religion terms even. Jonathon Livingstone is about Nirvana and personal excellence in the form of a seagull learning to ascend above his peers and circumstances.

Not all are familiar with Jonathan Livingstone, but the basic philosophy and metaphysics of 'non-dualism' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nondualism)can be learned by any interested. I usually come from the 'Advaita Vedanta' perspective (a school within Sanatana Dharma), but the whole spectrum is good to know, since various traditions represent different facets of the one universal reality. That reality is 'Brahman (http://www.hinduwebsite.com/brahmanmain.asp)' (one can choose what 'term' to use when describing it). I often synthesize both east and western traditions,...there is no reason as a student of universal spirituality, to reject any of what our human ancestors have left us by way of wisdom, nor to reject any new channels or revelations that come forth in our day. Let each one discern.

Coming from different perspectives, philosophical leanings, world-views, metaphysical understandings, and perferred theological nuances...we will not agree on all things, and at best pursue the way of "creative dialogue", or not engage at all. Its a choice of mutual cooperation, or choosing greener pastures elsewhere,...thats the challenge and opportunity of actual 'dialogue' if one intelligently and respectfully would like to go there sharing 'points of view'.

I'm considering some new thread-projects so will see what comes to the board soon :)




pj

Lon
December 10th, 2012, 09:36 PM
I dont exist to deny or reject anything, neither is my motive towards attacking anything per se, since all things exist by their own right, in contrast and in relation to all other things, whether they be 'objects' or 'ideas'. What is...is...and whatever may be....may be.

There is no burden then except what one assumes. If one wants to burden themselves with sin, however they interpret that, such is their choice (one chooses their theology or 'beliefs').



Not all are familiar with Jonathan Livingstone, but the basic philosophy and metaphysics of 'non-dualism' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nondualism)can be learned by any interested. I usually come from the 'Advaita Vedanta' perspective (a school within Sanatana Dharma), but the whole spectrum is good to know, since various traditions represent different facets of the one universal reality. That reality is 'Brahman (http://www.hinduwebsite.com/brahmanmain.asp)' (one can choose what 'term' to use when describing it). I often synthesize both east and western traditions,...there is no reason as a student of universal spirituality, to reject any of what our human ancestors have left us by way of wisdom, nor to reject any new channels or revelations that come forth in our day. Let each one discern.

Coming from different perspectives, philosophical leanings, world-views, metaphysical understandings, and perferred theological nuances...we will not agree on all things, and at best pursue the way of "creative dialogue", or not engage at all. Its a choice of mutual cooperation, or choosing greener pastures elsewhere,...thats the challenge and opportunity of actual 'dialogue' if one intelligently and respectfully would like to go there sharing 'points of view'.

I'm considering some new thread-projects so will see what comes to the board soon :)




pj
It goes full circle. Example:
me: the answers are not inside you, you are the problem because you have sin
you: I don't have a problem
me: you have a problem with my dualism, which is also dualistic


So again, it is my truth against your truth. You simply asserting your truth over my understanding of it, is dualism.

Another example:
Dad: "Did you steal that candy?"
Child: "No."

The answer is either true or false, there is no blend of the right and wrong answer. He is either telling the truth or he/she is lying. There is no philosophy that can negate that dualistic scenario. It is either or, only.

"I AM the Way, the Truth, and the Life, no one comes to the Father but by Me." There is no blend of truths, but one here and furthermore, this is said in such a way as to demand stark one-way truth. There is no other way to the Father, it's clear.

TruthSetsFree
December 15th, 2012, 04:24 PM
I was able to find some cached pages online of the list. Not sure when I last updated it, but I found this one from 7/16/12. Again, let me know if I am missing someone.

Here is the list as of 7/16/12:

The 'Jesus is not God' people (Non-trinitarians)
1) Keypurr
2) Pierac
3) csuguy
4) adopted son 77
5) Paul McNabb (Mormon)
6) Seydlitz77 (Mormon)
7) Martin.Harris (Mormon)
8) Elected4ever
9) Squeaky
10) Aner
11) Lazy Afternoon
12) truebeliever7
13) jerzy
14) krystyna
15) Krsto
16) Oatmeal
17) meshak


Religious Zealots (saved by works crowd):
1) Rightglory
2) Spitfire
3) Evoken
4) chrysostom
5) rbdeli
6) RC_Eagle
7) The Reverent One
8) annabenedetti
9) The Barbarian
10) patricius79
11) Yahushuan
12) IXOYE - makes salvation and born again two separate events
13) graceandpeace - makes salvation and born again two separate events
14) Cruciform
15) Truthsetsfree

The 'Paul is a godless liar' crowd (Ebionites) (**this crowd also believes works are necessary for salvation)
1) Glenda (Glenda also denies the deity of Christ, she is trying to get to the bottom of the Lake of Fire)
2) jeremysdemo


Miscellaneous
1) Freelight (spiritualist/universalist)

If you are on this list and you repent of your heresy, or if you find my categorization of your beliefs is in error, just post and let us know.

If you feel someone needs to be added to the list, either post or PM me. In order to speed things along, if you can post a link to one of the offending party's posts reflecting their heresy, that would be greatly appreciated. Also, a person must have a decent amount of posts and have been around for a few months at least to be considered for the list. I don't want to throw every one post wonder who wanders through here onto the list. After all, this is TOL's list and if the person isn't a regular visitor, they don't make the cut.

Thanks for any help or feedback.

:wave2::thumb::wave:

Judge not, lest u be judged, for by what measure you mete, so shall it be meted unto you"

looks like maybe you should start giving people a little of the old

benefit of the doubt

4 your own sake if nothing else

Robert Pate
December 15th, 2012, 05:02 PM
I was able to find some cached pages online of the list. Not sure when I last updated it, but I found this one from 7/16/12. Again, let me know if I am missing someone.

Here is the list as of 7/16/12:

The 'Jesus is not God' people (Non-trinitarians)
1) Keypurr
2) Pierac
3) csuguy
4) adopted son 77
5) Paul McNabb (Mormon)
6) Seydlitz77 (Mormon)
7) Martin.Harris (Mormon)
8) Elected4ever
9) Squeaky
10) Aner
11) Lazy Afternoon
12) truebeliever7
13) jerzy
14) krystyna
15) Krsto
16) Oatmeal
17) meshak


Religious Zealots (saved by works crowd):
1) Rightglory
2) Spitfire
3) Evoken
4) chrysostom
5) rbdeli
6) RC_Eagle
7) The Reverent One
8) annabenedetti
9) The Barbarian
10) patricius79
11) Yahushuan
12) IXOYE - makes salvation and born again two separate events
13) graceandpeace - makes salvation and born again two separate events
14) Cruciform
15) Truthsetsfree

The 'Paul is a godless liar' crowd (Ebionites) (**this crowd also believes works are necessary for salvation)
1) Glenda (Glenda also denies the deity of Christ, she is trying to get to the bottom of the Lake of Fire)
2) jeremysdemo


Miscellaneous
1) Freelight (spiritualist/universalist)

If you are on this list and you repent of your heresy, or if you find my categorization of your beliefs is in error, just post and let us know.

If you feel someone needs to be added to the list, either post or PM me. In order to speed things along, if you can post a link to one of the offending party's posts reflecting their heresy, that would be greatly appreciated. Also, a person must have a decent amount of posts and have been around for a few months at least to be considered for the list. I don't want to throw every one post wonder who wanders through here onto the list. After all, this is TOL's list and if the person isn't a regular visitor, they don't make the cut.

Thanks for any help or feedback.

:wave2::thumb::wave:

Please add Princely to the list. He said that Paul and the other apostles were not Christians, and that he only follows Christ and only quotes Christ.

Robert Pate
December 15th, 2012, 05:07 PM
Judge not, lest u be judged, for by what measure you mete, so shall it be meted unto you"

looks like maybe you should start giving people a little of the old

benefit of the doubt

4 your own sake if nothing else


He didn't judge you. The Bible judges you and finds you to be a false teacher.

Choleric
January 8th, 2013, 10:57 AM
Please add Princely to the list. He said that Paul and the other apostles were not Christians, and that he only follows Christ and only quotes Christ.

Haven't been around in a while. SOunds like this person would be an ebionite. Do you have any quotes you can point me to?

Sherman
January 24th, 2013, 07:59 AM
Gurucam--He thinks Peter is the devil.





I do not have to think that. Jesus figured that out and told the world that Peter was Satan.
.

Jesus confirmed that and then Jesus gave Peter a church where Peter as Satan can serve him
People are sent to Satan/Peter so that they might stop their blaspheming of the Spirit, so that their spirit might be saved in the day of the lord Jesus.

You can peruse the thread for yourself. His theology is really messed up.

Nick M
January 24th, 2013, 11:17 AM
His theology is really messed up.

Personally, I am not too concerned about that. After somebody has been shown the truth of the Bible, and they continue to reject it, then the gloves come off.

serpentdove
January 24th, 2013, 02:14 PM
...After somebody has been shown the truth of the Bible, and they continue to reject it, then the gloves come off.

Jn 3:19-20 :box:

Choleric
February 15th, 2013, 08:16 AM
Please welcome "genuineoriginal" to the list. He is apparently not as original as he thinks as all men everywhere are trying what he is trying, attempting to be good enough so maybe God will save him.

Here is the list as of 2/15/13:

The 'Jesus is not God' people (Non-trinitarians)
1) Keypurr
2) Pierac
3) csuguy
4) adopted son 77
5) Paul McNabb (Mormon)
6) Seydlitz77 (Mormon)
7) Martin.Harris (Mormon)
8) Elected4ever
9) Squeaky
10) Aner
11) Lazy Afternoon
12) truebeliever7
13) jerzy
14) krystyna
15) Krsto
16) Oatmeal
17) meshak


Religious Zealots (saved by works crowd):
1) Rightglory
2) Spitfire
3) Evoken
4) chrysostom
5) rbdeli
6) RC_Eagle
7) The Reverent One
8) annabenedetti
9) The Barbarian
10) patricius79
11) Yahushuan
12) IXOYE - makes salvation and born again two separate events
13) graceandpeace - makes salvation and born again two separate events
14) Cruciform
15) Truthsetsfree
16) genuineoriginal

The 'Paul is a godless liar' crowd (Ebionites) (**this crowd also believes works are necessary for salvation)
1) Glenda (Glenda also denies the deity of Christ, she is trying to get to the bottom of the Lake of Fire)
2) jeremysdemo


Miscellaneous
1) Freelight (spiritualist/universalist)

If you are on this list and you repent of your heresy, or if you find my categorization of your beliefs is in error, just post and let us know.

If you feel someone needs to be added to the list, either post or PM me. In order to speed things along, if you can post a link to one of the offending party's posts reflecting their heresy, that would be greatly appreciated. Also, a person must have a decent amount of posts and have been around for a few months at least to be considered for the list. I don't want to throw every one post wonder who wanders through here onto the list. After all, this is TOL's list and if the person isn't a regular visitor, they don't make the cut.

Thanks for any help or feedback.

:wave2::thumb::wave:

Glenda
February 15th, 2013, 11:00 PM
Please welcome "genuineoriginal" to the list. He is apparently not as original as he thinks as all men everywhere are trying what he is trying, attempting to be good enough so maybe God will save him.

Here is the list as of 2/15/13:

The 'Jesus is not God' people (Non-trinitarians)
1) Keypurr
2) Pierac
3) csuguy
4) adopted son 77
5) Paul McNabb (Mormon)
6) Seydlitz77 (Mormon)
7) Martin.Harris (Mormon)
8) Elected4ever
9) Squeaky
10) Aner
11) Lazy Afternoon
12) truebeliever7
13) jerzy
14) krystyna
15) Krsto
16) Oatmeal
17) meshak


Religious Zealots (saved by works crowd):
1) Rightglory
2) Spitfire
3) Evoken
4) chrysostom
5) rbdeli
6) RC_Eagle
7) The Reverent One
8) annabenedetti
9) The Barbarian
10) patricius79
11) Yahushuan
12) IXOYE - makes salvation and born again two separate events
13) graceandpeace - makes salvation and born again two separate events
14) Cruciform
15) Truthsetsfree
16) genuineoriginal

The 'Paul is a godless liar' crowd (Ebionites) (**this crowd also believes works are necessary for salvation)
1) Glenda (Glenda also denies the deity of Christ, she is trying to get to the bottom of the Lake of Fire)
2) jeremysdemo


Miscellaneous
1) Freelight (spiritualist/universalist)

If you are on this list and you repent of your heresy, or if you find my categorization of your beliefs is in error, just post and let us know.


Like I've clarified numerous times in the past, I belong in ALL the categories (I believe God was WITH Jesus as per Acts 10:38 & lack of good fruit-works shows lack of love for God & is damnable as per Mat 3:10 & I believe heeding Paul can be spiritually fatal per 2 Pet 3:16) so again please place my name in each list rather than one list only. Many thanks, Glenda

Choleric
February 15th, 2013, 11:08 PM
Like I've clarified numerous times in the past, I belong in ALL the categories (I believe God was WITH Jesus as per Acts 10:38 & lack of good fruit-works shows lack of love for God & is damnable as per Mat 3:10 & I believe heeding Paul can be spiritually fatal per 2 Pet 3:16) so again please place my name in each list rather than one list only. Many thanks, Glenda

And as i have said, you are trying to get to the bottom of the lake of fire. You are well on your way.

Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

Glenda
February 15th, 2013, 11:26 PM
And as i have said, you are trying to get to the bottom of the lake of fire. You are well on your way.

So kindly place my name in each section to reflect my beliefs thanks, or are you too lazy to make such additions?

Choleric
February 15th, 2013, 11:29 PM
So kindly place my name in each section to reflect my beliefs thanks, or are you too lazy to make such additions?

you were special enough to get a disclaimer by your name. That will have to be enough.

Glenda
February 15th, 2013, 11:38 PM
you were special enough to get a disclaimer by your name. That will have to be enough.
so why did you bother asking for post responses highlighting any error you made if you didn't intend to rectify the error?
Lack of intention to rectify errors reduces your credibility so you are harming yourself by lack of action to remedy mistakes.
I'm sorry for you.

jeremysdemo
February 15th, 2013, 11:41 PM
"I am the great and powerful OZ,

never mind what is behind the curtain...."

one fine day Isaiah 2:11, Luke 14:11. :)

keep shinin

jerm :cool:

Angel4Truth
February 16th, 2013, 12:47 AM
So kindly place my name in each section to reflect my beliefs thanks, or are you too lazy to make such additions?

Do you really think that Paul is a liar?

Glenda
February 16th, 2013, 01:10 AM
Do you really think that Paul is a liar?

Paul said so & I accept that while others may try to twist his words to not mean what he said Rom 3:7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?

Angel4Truth
February 16th, 2013, 01:13 AM
Paul said so & I accept that while others may try to twist his words to not mean what he said Rom 3:7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?

Thats a rhetorical question, hes actually teaching against that kind of behavior, not saying he is teaching lies. Read it in context.

genuineoriginal
February 16th, 2013, 01:24 AM
Please welcome "genuineoriginal" to the list.
I thought you just had trouble understanding, but it turns out that you are promoting godlessness in the name of Christianity.

You still have time to repent before the judgment.

:wave2:

Angel4Truth
February 16th, 2013, 01:28 AM
Thats a rhetorical question, hes actually teaching against that kind of behavior, not saying he is teaching lies. Read it in context.

See romans 3:8 - 8 And why not say, “Let us do evil that good may come”?—as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say. Their condemnation is just.

Paul is saying that those who condemn them for lies - are just in their condemnation of them ( the christians that Paul is correcting)who are teaching lies to advance what they believe is truth, that the behavior is NOT ok. The questions posed in 3:7 and 3:8 are both rhetorical.

Choleric
February 16th, 2013, 08:16 AM
See romans 3:8 - 8 And why not say, “Let us do evil that good may come”?—as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say. Their condemnation is just.

Paul is saying that those who condemn them for lies - are just in their condemnation of them ( the christians that Paul is correcting)who are teaching lies to advance what they believe is truth, that the behavior is NOT ok. The questions posed in 3:7 and 3:8 are both rhetorical.

she knows that she is just a bible rejector on her way to a lake of fire. There is no talking to her.

Omniskeptical
February 16th, 2013, 09:44 AM
I find my absence from the list.. suprising.

chrysostom
February 16th, 2013, 09:51 AM
I find my absence from the list.. suprising.

somebody must have taken it off

rainee
February 17th, 2013, 09:17 AM
I find my absence from the list.. suprising.

You may need to participate more to be really noticed :P

freelight
February 17th, 2013, 04:36 PM
~*~*~

Heretics are those brave enough to think for themselves and confident enough to choose what is best from all possible points of view, and still open and honestly investigating all things with vigilence and discretion. Life is a journey, live it consciously.




pj

chrysostom
February 17th, 2013, 04:46 PM
~*~*~

Heretics are those brave enough to think for themselves and confident enough to choose what is best from all possible points of view, and still open and honestly investigating all things with vigilence and discretion. Life is a journey, live it consciously.




pj

to prove that you are able to think for yourself
you have to actually take a position on something

freelight
February 17th, 2013, 05:02 PM
to prove that you are able to think for yourself
you have to actually take a position on something

But 'positions' are just points of view, an angle or perspective, an opinion or belief, an assumption. There is a pure living awareness that is prior to and from which all points of view arise,....I enjoy abiding in that. 'That' is beyond all points of view. It is pure 'Light' or pure 'Being', free of interpretation, free of the minds impositions :) - otherwise, my 'perspectives' and 'positions' reflecting views that are more tenable to my intellect are amply shared here, but they are only 'relative' to the subjects engaged. - they are just a play in the mind, thoughts 'relating' to other thoughts.



pj

BetweenTheRivers
February 22nd, 2013, 05:44 PM
I would like to volunteer to be a candidate for list number one.

The 'Jesus is not God' people (Non-trinitarians)

Ktoyou
February 22nd, 2013, 06:48 PM
Thats a rhetorical question, hes actually teaching against that kind of behavior, not saying he is teaching lies. Read it in context.

This actually pertains to James, who many find confusing. The real deal here is all those saved, still are not free from sin, rather they are in Grace, thus will be washed by the blood of Christ, made clean and do God’s good will. This is where James comes in, saying, in effect, we know them by their fruits, the saved do what is good and avoid evil.

YahuShuan
February 23rd, 2013, 03:43 AM
Shabbat Shalom.

chrysostom
February 23rd, 2013, 03:48 AM
But 'positions' are just points of view, an angle or perspective, an opinion or belief, an assumption. There is a pure living awareness that is prior to and from which all points of view arise,....I enjoy abiding in that. 'That' is beyond all points of view. It is pure 'Light' or pure 'Being', free of interpretation, free of the minds impositions :) - otherwise, my 'perspectives' and 'positions' reflecting views that are more tenable to my intellect are amply shared here, but they are only 'relative' to the subjects engaged. - they are just a play in the mind, thoughts 'relating' to other thoughts.



pj

like a sponge that holds water

has nothing once squeezed

Padre Vorbis
February 23rd, 2013, 05:29 AM
Eris approves of this thread.

Choleric
February 23rd, 2013, 07:58 AM
I would like to volunteer to be a candidate for list number one.

The 'Jesus is not God' people (Non-trinitarians)

Have to be around for a good while and have a few more posts than "2". However, you could get the ball rolling by stating your particular heresy plainly for us all to read.

:thumb:

oatmeal
February 23rd, 2013, 10:31 AM
Judge not, lest u be judged, for by what measure you mete, so shall it be meted unto you"

looks like maybe you should start giving people a little of the old

benefit of the doubt

4 your own sake if nothing else

That is one great post!

freelight
February 23rd, 2013, 01:41 PM
like a sponge that holds water

has nothing once squeezed


Not sure the 'analogy' here fits :)

I have opinions, points of view, preferential beliefs in certain values, meanings, religious principles, concepts, philosophical ideals, etc....but I recognize them as being just that. I would hope to recognize 'opinions' or 'points of view' as being only temporal and relative to the subjects being considered. All points of view are subject to change.

A 'heretic' is one courageous enough to 'think' and 'choose' for himself, instead of letting others be a religious 'authority' for them. Each must discover 'truth' or 'reality' for themselves, since that reality is ever at hand.

I shared an illuminating passage from J. Krishnamurti, on 'truth' being a path-less land....here (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3365956&postcount=41) - this view does away with all 'paths', 'ways', 'denominations', 'organizations'...to consider the truth that is already always within one's own being. A good question to ask, is "Am I truly unconditionally and absolutely free?" (this would mean free of all beliefs, dogmas, opinions, assumptions that actually hinder one's realization of what 'truth' is).



pj

BetweenTheRivers
February 23rd, 2013, 10:27 PM
Have to be around for a good while and have a few more posts than "2". However, you could get the ball rolling by stating your particular heresy plainly for us all to read.

:thumb:

Yahshua is the son of God.

While that may not be the popular teaching, it is what we are told in the Holy Bible.

If Yahshua was God Himself, then the Crucifixion and resurrection gets reduced to a cheap parlor trick.

Angel4Truth
February 23rd, 2013, 10:56 PM
Yahshua is the son of God.

While that may not be the popular teaching, it is what we are told in the Holy Bible.

If Yahshua was God Himself, then the Crucifixion and resurrection gets reduced to a cheap parlor trick.

How so? Being made flesh and being tempted in every point like we yet remaining without sin, is no trick, im not thinking being whipped into oblivion and then crucified and experiencing the sin of the world placed on you and feeling separated from the Father while it was done was no picnic, and then experiencing death?

It would only be a trick if He were never made flesh like we, nor tempted like we.

Hebrews 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

I guess you think the fear in His flesh tempted such as we, asking to let this cup pass from Him while He sweated blood, was also just a trick too.

Christ laid His own life down and took it up again Himself, Can a man take up His own life from death?

chrysostom
February 24th, 2013, 06:33 AM
Not sure the 'analogy' here fits :)

I have opinions, points of view, preferential beliefs in certain values, meanings, religious principles, concepts, philosophical ideals, etc....but I recognize them as being just that. I would hope to recognize 'opinions' or 'points of view' as being only temporal and relative to the subjects being considered. All points of view are subject to change.


how do you recognize opinion?
if
you do not recognize what is not

freelight
February 25th, 2013, 02:10 AM
how do you recognize opinion?
if
you do not recognize what is not


An 'opinion' is just that, an opinion among many other opinions. How one recognizes that which is not an 'opinion' is by abondoning all opinions.

~*~*~

Q: What is left when all opinions, concepts, assumptions about 'reality' are dropped?

A: Reality itself.








pj

csuguy
February 25th, 2013, 02:11 AM
An 'opinion' is just that, an opinion among many other opinions. How one recognizes that which is not an 'opinion' is by abondoning all opinions.

~*~*~

Q: What is left when all opinions, concepts, assumptions about 'reality' are dropped?

A: Reality itself.

pj

Is that your opinion? ;)

freelight
February 25th, 2013, 02:27 AM
Is that your opinion? ;)


:)

Its an observation that an 'opinion' about 'reality' is not 'reality' itself.
But this inquiry perhaps transcends the scope of this thread.




pj

Lazy afternoon
February 25th, 2013, 03:15 AM
Christ laid His own life down and took it up again Himself, Can a man take up His own life from death?

No. A dead man cannot raise himself from the dead.(but then you deny his death, by your saying He went somewhere to preach to dead people)

The Bible says His Father raised Jesus from the dead and by the everlasting covenant too.

You can not discern that it was the Father in Jesus who said "destroy this temple and I will raise it up in three days"

Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

LA

Angel4Truth
February 25th, 2013, 05:34 AM
No. A dead man cannot raise himself from the dead.(but then you deny his death, by your saying He went somewhere to preach to dead people)



1 Peter 3:18-20 I'm guess you think that the souls there means living people wrongly. Tell me how someone who perished in the floods soul was alive in prison after Christ was put to death like it says.

As to the rest of your post, Christ said He chose to lay down His own life and take it up again.

John 10:18 "No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father."

Now I've already debated annihilation with you in another thread, so lets not take this one off topic.

Lazy afternoon
February 25th, 2013, 07:42 AM
1 Peter 3:18-20 I'm guess you think that the souls there means living people wrongly. Tell me how someone who perished in the floods soul was alive in prison after Christ was put to death like it says.

The verses state that the spirit of Christ witnessed to those who lived in the time of Noah when the ark was being made.

It is another case of it not being Jesus who spoke to them , it was God by the Spirit.

Noah was a preacher of righteousness.

2Pe 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;



As to the rest of your post, Christ said He chose to lay down His own life and take it up again.

John 10:18 "No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father."

According to this verse God gave Him command, but it is not command it is direction.

The verse means He was to lay down His life and He would receive it back again. It does not mean that He would raise Himself from the dead.


Now I've already debated annihilation with you in another thread, so lets not take this one off topic.

Okay then, you are a heretic. :D

Chloric is a heretic, and you are all going to Disney Land where you belong.

LA

BetweenTheRivers
February 25th, 2013, 03:10 PM
How so? Being made flesh and being tempted in every point like we yet remaining without sin, is no trick, im not thinking being whipped into oblivion and then crucified and experiencing the sin of the world placed on you and feeling separated from the Father while it was done was no picnic, and then experiencing death?

It would only be a trick if He were never made flesh like we, nor tempted like we.

Hebrews 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

I guess you think the fear in His flesh tempted such as we, asking to let this cup pass from Him while He sweated blood, was also just a trick too.

Christ laid His own life down and took it up again Himself, Can a man take up His own life from death?




Please, if I have not made a specific statement, don't write things such as "I guess you think." Rather than guess at anything I think, please ask me what I think or rely on what I have actually stated.

I have not questioned the suffering Yahshua faced, that was all real, there is no question in my mind about the suffering he endured for all of us. However, if Yahshua was God incarnate, YHWH in a human body, then he would know he cannot die. Any form of execution would then simply be for show because no human can kill God.

The old covenant was based on a strict adherence of the Mosaic laws. The new covenant is based on faith, we must have the same faith in Yahshua that he had in his Father. He put his complete trust in YHWH to restore him once he had turned over his life and said, it is finished.

Angel4Truth
February 25th, 2013, 03:30 PM
Please, if I have not made a specific statement, don't write things such as "I guess you think." Rather than guess at anything I think, please ask me what I think or rely on what I have actually stated.

I have not questioned the suffering Yahshua faced, that was all real, there is no question in my mind about the suffering he endured for all of us. However, if Yahshua was God incarnate, YHWH in a human body, then he would know he cannot die. Any form of execution would then simply be for show because no human can kill God.

The old covenant was based on a strict adherence of the Mosaic laws. The new covenant is based on faith, we must have the same faith in Yahshua that he had in his Father. He put his complete trust in YHWH to restore him once he had turned over his life and said, it is finished.

He didn't die spiritually, only physically. Its what He came to do. By what authority or scripture do you use to determine that God could not die physically?

Lazy afternoon
February 25th, 2013, 03:45 PM
He didn't die spiritually, only physically. Its what He came to do. By what authority or scripture do you use to determine that God could not die physically?

Do you also claim Jesus soul did not die?

and was His spirit human?

LA

BetweenTheRivers
February 25th, 2013, 03:47 PM
He didn't die spiritually, only physically. Its what He came to do. By what authority or scripture do you use to determine that God could not die physically?

YHWH is not human..... He cannot die in a physical, human way. His son, Yahshua, was human.... I believe, he was fully human, he had the same human desires of the flesh which he had to over come to live a perfect human life the way his Father intended.

Do you believe there exists a spirit that goes on beyond human physical death?

Angel4Truth
February 25th, 2013, 04:11 PM
YHWH is not human..... He cannot die in a physical, human way. His son, Yahshua, was human.... I believe, he was fully human, he had the same human desires of the flesh which he had to over come to live a perfect human life the way his Father intended.

Do you believe there exists a spirit that goes on beyond human physical death?

I asked for your verse that says God could not physically die. By what authority do you determine that?

Angel4Truth
February 25th, 2013, 04:13 PM
Do you also claim Jesus soul did not die?

and was His spirit human?

LA


A spirit is not flesh. I am not debating anhiliation with you in this thread no matter how hard you try. You have already been told my view in the apropriate thread.

This discussion is about Christ being God, do you deny that also?

Lazy afternoon
February 25th, 2013, 04:41 PM
A spirit is not flesh. I am not debating anhiliation with you in this thread no matter how hard you try. You have already been told my view in the apropriate thread.

This discussion is about Christ being God, do you deny that also?


I agree with--


Originally Posted by BetweenTheRivers
YHWH is not human..... He cannot die in a physical, human way. His son, Yahshua, was human.... I believe, he was fully human, he had the same human desires of the flesh which he had to over come to live a perfect human life the way his Father intended.

Jesus was born fully man--(His spirit was pure)

1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him?



LA

Angel4Truth
February 25th, 2013, 05:41 PM
I agree with--



Jesus was born fully man--(His spirit was pure)

1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him?



LA

Do you believe that Jesus is God come in the flesh, yes or no?

BetweenTheRivers
February 25th, 2013, 06:19 PM
I asked for your verse that says God could not physically die. By what authority do you determine that?


I'm sorry, I don't have any specific verse in mind or off the top of my head, I'll have to determine which Scripture gave me that belief.

I don't claim any "authority," I express my beliefs based on my understanding of the Holy Bible. I follow no doctrine of men, but what can be found in the Holy Bible.

I would never expect anyone to take my word for anything in the Holy Bible. Nothing can beat a personal understanding of God's desires gained through personal reading of the Holy Bible. No books, pamphlets or study aids about the Holy Bible can replace reading the Book itself.

Lazy afternoon
February 25th, 2013, 06:51 PM
Do you believe that Jesus is God come in the flesh, yes or no?

Jesus is the whole man God came in.

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

None beheld the glory of the only begotten son full of grace and truth until the baptism by John and the Holy Spirit descending upon Him.

Act 10:37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.


LA

Angel4Truth
February 25th, 2013, 06:59 PM
Jesus is the whole man God came in.

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

None beheld the glory of the only begotten son full of grace and truth until the baptism by John and the Holy Spirit descending upon Him.

Act 10:37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.


LA

Do you belive in the trinity, yes or no, and why cant you give me a straight answer? Confusion is not of God.

Lazy afternoon
February 25th, 2013, 07:10 PM
Do you belive in the trinity, yes or no, and why cant you give me a straight answer? Confusion is not of God.

You are confused.




47 Reasons Why Our Heavenly Father Has No Equals or “Co-Equals”






There are many verses that, if read and believed in a simple, straightforward manner, should clearly convince any unbiased person that God and Jesus are two completely different and distinct beings. There are also many logical reasons that should cause us to doubt the doctrine of the Trinity. What follows is a list of some reasons to believe that the Father is the only true God of Scripture and has no equal.

Reasons to doubt that the Trinity exists

(1) The word “Trinity” is not in the Bible.

(2) There is no clear Trinitarian formula in the Bible.

(3) Trinitarians differ greatly in their definitions of the Trinity. The Eastern Orthodox Church differs from the Western traditions regarding the relation of the Holy Spirit to the Father and the Son. Some television evangelists differ greatly from the Reformed Churches in their concept of Christ’s divinity while he was on earth. Oneness Pentecostals say the classic formula of the Trinity is completely wrong. Yet all these claim that Christ is God and that the Bible supports their position. Surely if the Trinity were a part of Bible doctrine, and especially if one had to believe it to be saved, it would be clearly defined in Scripture. Yet there is no Trinitarian formula in the Bible and Trinitarians themselves cannot agree on a definition. If one is to believe in the Trinity, how is he to know which definition is correct, since none appears in the Bible?

(4) The Trinitarian contention that “the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God, and together they make one God” is not in Scripture and is illogical. Trinitarians teach that Jesus is both 100 percent man and 100 percent God. We say that God can do the impossible, but He cannot perform that which is inherently contradictory. God is the inventor of logic and mathematics, disciplines He created to allow us to get to know Him and His world. It is the very reason why He said that He is “One God,” and why Jesus said that the witness of two was true and then said that he and His Father both were witnesses. God cannot make a round square, and He cannot make 100 percent +100 percent = 100 percent, without contradicting the laws of mathematics He designed.



Read on--

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/articles/god/47-reasons-why-our-heavenly-father-has-no-equals-or-co-equals

LA

Angel4Truth
February 25th, 2013, 08:28 PM
You are confused.




47 Reasons Why Our Heavenly Father Has No Equals or “Co-Equals”






There are many verses that, if read and believed in a simple, straightforward manner, should clearly convince any unbiased person that God and Jesus are two completely different and distinct beings. There are also many logical reasons that should cause us to doubt the doctrine of the Trinity. What follows is a list of some reasons to believe that the Father is the only true God of Scripture and has no equal.

Reasons to doubt that the Trinity exists

(1) The word “Trinity” is not in the Bible.

(2) There is no clear Trinitarian formula in the Bible.

(3) Trinitarians differ greatly in their definitions of the Trinity. The Eastern Orthodox Church differs from the Western traditions regarding the relation of the Holy Spirit to the Father and the Son. Some television evangelists differ greatly from the Reformed Churches in their concept of Christ’s divinity while he was on earth. Oneness Pentecostals say the classic formula of the Trinity is completely wrong. Yet all these claim that Christ is God and that the Bible supports their position. Surely if the Trinity were a part of Bible doctrine, and especially if one had to believe it to be saved, it would be clearly defined in Scripture. Yet there is no Trinitarian formula in the Bible and Trinitarians themselves cannot agree on a definition. If one is to believe in the Trinity, how is he to know which definition is correct, since none appears in the Bible?

(4) The Trinitarian contention that “the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God, and together they make one God” is not in Scripture and is illogical. Trinitarians teach that Jesus is both 100 percent man and 100 percent God. We say that God can do the impossible, but He cannot perform that which is inherently contradictory. God is the inventor of logic and mathematics, disciplines He created to allow us to get to know Him and His world. It is the very reason why He said that He is “One God,” and why Jesus said that the witness of two was true and then said that he and His Father both were witnesses. God cannot make a round square, and He cannot make 100 percent +100 percent = 100 percent, without contradicting the laws of mathematics He designed.



Read on--

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/articles/god/47-reasons-why-our-heavenly-father-has-no-equals-or-co-equals

LA

So then, no you do not believe in the trinity. Why not just simply admit that?

Lazy afternoon
February 26th, 2013, 12:50 AM
So then, no you do not believe in the trinity. Why not just simply admit that?

I am aware of your evil motives and twisting of scripture.

You try to trap people , and you can demand an answer which suits you, as much as you like, but if you do not understand what I believe already then it is because you love your own opinions..

There are many versions of the trinity and you know it but they all have a major flaw which you can find by reading the Bible instead of your theology books of man.

I suggest you seek God because the time is short so that your character is more like Christ instead of trying to find a word in order to condemn people like any common Pharisee does.


LA

Lazy afternoon
February 26th, 2013, 12:51 AM
34 Reasons Why the “Holy Spirit” Is Not A “Person” – Separate From the Only True God, the Father






(Unless otherwise noted scripture is taken from the King James Version.)

The doctrine of the Trinity depends upon the reality of a “third person” called “the Holy Spirit” to complete a supposed multi-personal Godhead. Without such a separate person who is “co-eternal” and “co-equal” with the Father and the Son, the “Triune” God disintegrates. It is therefore wise to consider the reasons why this idea is not supported by logical scrutiny nor the weight of scriptural evidence.

Before exploring the reasons why this teaching is not biblically sound, we should first consider its practical consequences. We must obviate the common objections that we are merely splitting hairs over unprovable doctrines, which truth is not at stake and that one teaching is equivalent to another as long as each is sincerely believed and God is approached with humility and love. It is our assertion that the teaching that “the Holy Spirit” is a separate “person” from God, the Father, is not true and results in some serious practical disadvantages to living the Christian life, namely:

a. Confusion about the distinction between “the Giver” and “the gift” results in misunderstanding of many verses of Scripture that become unintelligible, and the truth is exchanged for a man made myth.
b. A lack of recognition of the permanence of the gift of holy spirit in the life of a believer results from the confusion about the coming and going of a “person.”
c. Worship, praise, prayer, song and liturgy are directed toward an imaginary “third person” in the traditional Christian “Godhead,” but it ought to be directed primarily to God, the Father and secondarily to the Lord Jesus Christ. The only true God, the Father, seeks those who will worship Him “in spirit and in truth [reality]” (John 4:23), in other words, worship Him for who He really is.
d. Improperly discerning and understanding what the gift of holy spirit is, many Christians naively assume that virtually all spiritual manifestations are from the true God, and too often fail to discern the genuine from the counterfeit, and are therefore led into error.
e. Furthermore, being willingly “ignorant of spiritual matters” (1 Cor. 12:1; 14:37 and 38) these Christians run the risk that the Lord will disregard their worship, leaving them vulnerable to demonic influences.
f. Failing to understand that “the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets,” and instead being taught to be “controlled” by the Holy Spirit, many become influenced by demons, even while thinking that they are being “led by the spirit” of God.
g. Many are not walking in the power of the spirit because they are waiting for a “person” to move them, while God is waiting for them to utilize by faith that which they have already been given.

We are now ready to examine the principal reasons for denying the Trinitarian assertion that “the Holy Spirit” is a separate person from the Father, the one God of Scripture. These are drawn from our own ruminations and from the work of James H. Broughton and Peter J. Southgate (The Trinity: True or False? 1995), Anthony Buzzard (The Doctrine of the Trinity; Christianity’s Self-Inflicted Wound, 1994), Charles Morgridge (The True Believer’s Defence, 1837), Fredric A. Farley (The Scripture Doctrine of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, 1873) and The Racovian Catechism, 1609.

1. God is said to have a throne (1 Kings 22:19; Dan. 7:9), inhabit heaven as His dwelling place (1 Kings 8:30,39,43 and 49), and yet “heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain” Him (1 Kings 8:27). So how can He be said to have a throne and a dwelling place and yet be uncontainable? Ps. 139:7 indicates that God’s spirit and His presence can be equivalent terms. God is therefore omnipresent by His “spirit,” which is not a separate “person.” This presence can also be extended by His personal ministers and agents, whether Christ, angels, or believers. None of these is a separate person who is also “God” in some multi-personal Godhead, but rather empowered agents who are equipped to do the will of God.

2. Exodus 23:20-22 mentions the angel of God’s presence that would go before Israel in the wilderness. “Person” God has permitted angels to speak as if they were God Himself, and even to use His personal name, YAHWEH. A few examples of this principle are Manoah and his wife (Judges13:21 and 22), Jacob wrestling (Gen. 32:24-30; Hos. 12:3-5), Moses (Ex. 3:2-4 , 6 and 16) and Gideon (Judges 6:12, 13, 16 and 22). What is sometimes attributed to Jesus or to “the Holy Spirit” in the Old Testament is better explained by this principle of God manifesting Himself by means of an angelic messenger who speaks for Him in the first person (“I the Lord,” etc.) and manifests His glory.

3. Although the Hebrew word for “spirit” (ruach), can refer to angels or evil spirits, which are persons or entities with a personality, the Hebrew usage of “the spirit of God” never refers to a person separate from, but a part of, God Almighty. Neither does the phrase, “the spirits of God” occur, which would refer to separate spiritual entities within a multipersonal God.

a. Zechariah 6:5 refers to the “four spirits of the heavens” riding in chariots, but the NIV text note supplies an alternate reading of “winds,” which makes more sense in the context—the four winds of heaven going North, East, etc.).
b. Revelation 1:4 refers to the “seven spirits” before the throne of God. Are these seven “Holy Spirits,” or sentient entities, within the “Godhead?” The context provides the answer: they are the seven lamps of fire burning before the throne (4:5 – NRSV) and the seven horns and seven eyes of the slain Lamb (5:6). These are likely the same “spirits” mentioned in Isaiah 11:2 in connection with the Messiah: the spirit of the Lord, the Spirit of wisdom, the spirit of understanding, the spirit of counsel, the spirit of might, the spirit of knowledge and the spirit of the fear of the Lord. These “spirits” are undoubtedly symbols of the intense power of insight and judgment with which the Lamb will judge and reign over the earth during the Millennium.

4. As with the Hebrew word, ruach, the Greek word for spirit (pneuma) also has many different meanings, the correct one also being determinable only from the context of each occurrence. Although Greek has both upper and lower case letters, the early manuscripts employed either one or the other. Therefore, no accurate distinction can be made in the original manuscripts of the Bible between upper case “Holy Spirit,” a proper noun referring to God, and lower case “holy spirit,” referring to an impersonal force. Compounding the problem is the fact that the article “the” was often added by translators, leading the reader to think that “the Holy Spirit” is referring to a separate person, a third person of “the Holy Trinity” as taught by traditional Christian orthodoxy.

5. Scholars admit that the concept of the Trinity cannot be substantiated in the Old Testament. In particular, “the Holy Spirit” as any kind of independent or distinct entity has no place in Old Testament revelation. Therefore, they say, the concept must be derived from the New Testament. With the exception of a few comparatively difficult verses in the Gospel of John that are often misunderstood, the New Testament also gives no certain and incontrovertible indication of a “Holy Spirit” as a personal being co-equal with the Father and the Son. This is a rather glaring omission if the Triune God is supposed to provide the foundation of Christian orthodoxy, yet the “tri-unity” of God cannot be clearly established even with New Testament revelation. Thus it makes sense to understand “holy spirit” in the New Testament just as it was understood in the Old Testament, either God Himself or His presence and power.

6. The Greek word for “spirit,” pneuma, is neuter, as are all pronouns referring to the spirit, making them necessarily impersonal. New Testament translators knew this grammatically, but groundlessly translated references to the coming “spirit of truth” as “He” instead of “it” because of their Trinitarian prejudice (e.g., John 14:17). If they had consistently translated the neuter pronouns of John 14 through 16 as “it,” “its,” “itself” and “which” instead of “he,” “his,” “him,” “who,” and “whom,” the case for the “personality of the Holy Spirit” would largely disappear from Christian belief. Such a major theological doctrine with such important implications for foundational Christian theology cannot depend on a few pronouns, but rather should be founded upon the weight of the biblical evidence considered as a whole, apart from tradition and prejudice.

Read on

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/articles/holy-spirit/34-reasons-why-the-holy-spirit-is-not-a-person-separate-from-the-only-true-god-the-father-2

steko
February 26th, 2013, 12:59 AM
Without duplicating the above post.......

There can be no consciousness nor self-consciousness for an absolute singularity.
Consciousness demands a subject and an object.....a knower and a known.
Self-consciousness demands a knower and a known, plus a third knower who knows that the knower has known the known.

The true GOD is super-personal.

Angel4Truth
February 26th, 2013, 10:21 AM
Without duplicating the above post.......

There can be no consciousness nor self-consciousness for an absolute singularity.
Consciousness demands a subject and an object.....a knower and a known.
Self-consciousness demands a knower and a known, plus a third knower who knows that the knower has known the known.

The true GOD is super-personal.

Amen

JonahofAkron
February 26th, 2013, 10:50 AM
The Trinity is a pretty interesting way to explain the actions that YHWH takes. It explains that there is at some point in time a period that He dwelt in the flesh-Messiah. It explains that He allows His presence to fall on His children. And it also explains the gravity of His Name. Our problem begins when we separate these facets of the One into definite and individualized 'persons'; simply stated, this explanation can create a multiplicity of gods when overly developed.

Nick M
April 10th, 2013, 08:50 AM
After all, this is TOL's list and if the person isn't a regular visitor, they don't make the cut.

Thanks for any help or feedback.

:wave2::thumb::wave:

I have some to add, and was going to make another thread. And I decided we don't need a second thread. Some say they are Christian, but never mention any specific beliefs. They just argue against everything good in the Bible. Because of their confession, I know they reject God and are wolves. Some on the list deny Christ before men, so they were never in question. But this is what I was going to post.


You are going to hell. You know it, I know it, many others know but choose not to say. I know what you believe because you have told us. You constantly defend evil, vile, wicked behavior like being a homo, murder (abortion), muslims, false “Christians” gospels, and worst of all, Bible twisters. And while Rusha openly denies God is a no-brainer, I wanted her name on the list for general purpose.

1. The Barbarian
2. Rusha
3. Arthur Brain
4. Chrysostom
5. Godrulz
6. Paulos
7. Everybody on Choleric’s list
8. Everybody on Sozo’s list
9. This Charming Manc
10. Drake Shelton (just to make an even ten)

Rusha
April 10th, 2013, 09:05 AM
Even though I am not a believer you wish to add *me* to the list.

Oh my ... never a dull moment with you, Nicky.

:chuckle:

Nick M
April 11th, 2013, 02:00 AM
Some on the list deny Christ before men, so they were never in question.


Even though I am not a believer you wish to add *me* to the list.

Timotheos
April 11th, 2013, 06:05 AM
I feel kind of icky reading this thread.

Nick M
April 11th, 2013, 08:28 AM
Alate_one is also in the handbasket, and steering it with its foot to the floor.

csuguy
April 11th, 2013, 08:30 AM
Wouldn't it be easier to make a list of all those you consider "true Christians"? :think: It'd be much shorter (just you?) and much easier to maintain.

Nick M
April 11th, 2013, 08:34 AM
Wouldn't it be easier to make a list of all those you consider "true Christians"? :think: It'd be much shorter (just you?) and much easier to maintain.

No.


Matthew 7:15

15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.

The fluffy bunny club. Every one of them is in sheeps clothing and pretends to be nice. Not one that I can see believes nor preaches the gospel. Or maybe they do, and TOL is just a social hangout. But my guess is no.

Acts 20:29

29 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock.

They try and pull people from the faith.

Rusha
April 11th, 2013, 08:36 AM
Uh Nick ... I am *not* a Christian, so it would be rather silly for me to "preach the gospel". Nor do I "try to pull people from the faith".

Also, I don't pretend to be anything or anyone other than who I am.

MarkA
April 11th, 2013, 08:47 AM
Wouldn't it be easier to make a list of all those you consider "true Christians"? :think: It'd be much shorter (just you?) and much easier to maintain.

this should be easy lets see...

well there is, me, and than there is me.

I am the only true Christian here...I thought you all gathered that from the OP. :chuckle:

congratulations ME! :beanboy:

freelight
April 11th, 2013, 02:32 PM
You are going to hell. You know it, I know it, many others know but choose not to say. I know what you believe because you have told us.

1. The Barbarian
2. Rusha
3. Arthur Brain
4. Chrysostom
5. Godrulz
6. Paulos
7. Everybody on Choleric’s list
8. Everybody on Sozo’s list
9. This Charming Manc
10. Drake Shelton (just to make an even ten)





You know its rather pretentious and degrading to claim or tell anyone that they are going to hell, based solely on one's own personal 'theology' or 'belief-system', since that remains solely an a 'opinion. You cannot prove anyone is going to hell for that matter, not to mention that 'hell' is an English word translated from various original words that have different meanings as to confuse the issue of just what 'hell' actually is (gehenna, hades, sheol, tartarus, etc.)

See: What the hell is hell? (http://what-the-hell-is-hell.com/)

Free of all 'biblical' contexts and traditional terms....we see that 'heaven' or 'hell' are also states of consciousness...or conditions of mind. One experiences the conditioning of his 'actions' and 're-actions', (law of karma), as long anything exists to condition or affect one's experience, until one is wholly free or perfected in God-consciousness. So any assumption of being in 'heaven' or 'hell' in some future state (that does not now exist) is conjecture. All you will know or experience for all eternity...is whatever is 'now'. Nothing exists outside of 'now', nor ever will. This is it. Welcome to reality. (all else are only apparent modifications of perception, change, movement, etc.).

There are intelligent, free thinking and brave souls who have chosen to think for themselves, and choose their own path as 'God' leads them, - some of these visionaries and trail-blazers are called 'heretics' in some negative connotation as defined by their 'orthodox' opinions, but we continue as mavericks and trail-blazers, intellectually and spiritually free...heralding the principles and values that uphold such freedoms.



pj

Nick M
April 11th, 2013, 05:25 PM
Uh Nick ... I am *not* a Christian

No kidding. It wasn't implied that you are, in fact it was pointed out that you deny him before men.


Nor do I "try to pull people from the faith".

And a proven liar. As demonstrated here.

TruthSetsFree
April 11th, 2013, 05:34 PM
it would be easier to make a list of all those who are NOT heretics...

glew
April 11th, 2013, 06:31 PM
What would you do with a list like that WorkSetsFree? Make up more stories about Saint Martin Luther?

bucksplasher
April 11th, 2013, 06:40 PM
I missed this thread. Must have unbookmarked it or is it only recently come back to life? tWINs

xAvarice
April 11th, 2013, 06:44 PM
I'm feeling left out.

Rusha
April 11th, 2013, 07:28 PM
And a proven liar. As demonstrated here.

Quit projecting ... I am not the one who is being dishonest.

bybee
April 12th, 2013, 06:11 AM
I'm feeling left out.

You're right!

MarkA
April 12th, 2013, 07:04 AM
Why so? We are instructed in Scripture to mark heretics. How would you fulfill that commandment on a forum?

I nominate Choleric for the "saved by works crowd".

you do not have to fulfill anything Choleric, rest in Messiah and repent of your foolishness.

xAvarice
April 12th, 2013, 04:49 PM
You're right!

*shakes head*

http://iqon-img.s3.amazonaws.com/items/890284/890284_s.jpg

Quincy
April 12th, 2013, 04:52 PM
Where is the free thinker's category? Hardly seems like much of a satanly list without adding free thinkers.

freelight
April 12th, 2013, 07:41 PM
Quit projecting ... I am not the one who is being dishonest.

It is the nature of 'mind' to 'project' for this is its function, or 'tendency'. That which is prior to mind however is pure awareness itself, the 'light' that makes mind possible, but it is inherently free of the mind's superimpositions and distortions, which come after as the mind 'translates' and 'interprets' what it sees via 'perception'.

A religious-ego is the worst, for it pretends to know the mind of 'God', or expound a dogma or creed that is true (orthodox), while un recognizing that the light behind all that is knowable and perceivable is 'God' itself,...that absolute reality that is before any conception, thought, opinion, belief, perspective or assumption. It is Being itself, independent of anything else, but upon which everything 'else' depends for existence.

That reality or pure awareness, or the source of existence, is one's true nature, without the imposition of the 'ego' assuming itself as a personality-complex born in space-time...wearing so many roles and sporting so many faces. But such is the play of 'God' as it assumes many guises in creation, unfolding and inter-relating associations thru experience,...which is what 'creation' is about, hence the full spectrum of all potentials and possisbilities having space to manifest themselves thru-out infinity.




pj

xAvarice
April 12th, 2013, 07:50 PM
Add me onto it... please? =/

freelight
April 12th, 2013, 08:16 PM
Where is the free thinker's category? Hardly seems like much of a satanly list without adding free thinkers.


The heretic's list here includes 'free thinkers' (of various liberties) within the 'context' of 'Christianity' (associated philosophy/metaphysics/theology/culture), but not outside of those borders, so a true 'free thinkers' category would be too 'transcendental' :)

Of course a soul that is totally 'free'...is beyond all names, forms and categories whatosoever. But the nature of relative knowledge has it that language is 'definitive' and 'relative', so all 'relating' within the mind already distorts thru 'symbols' and 'interpretation'.



pj

shagster01
April 12th, 2013, 08:47 PM
Heretics are people who dissent from the popular doctrine of the time. I hear Christians all over telling me how this is no longer a Christian nation. So wouldn't that make them the heretics in the world??

On TOL it's reversed though. :)

Iakabos
April 13th, 2013, 05:36 AM
I'd hope this is a joke because this is far from brotherly, shameful.

Nick M
April 13th, 2013, 09:18 AM
Add (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=1174) bucksplasher and Jason0047 to the list.

And Nang and AMR who won't vote, and more importantly, are part of the cosmic lottery winners crowd.

fishrovmen
April 13th, 2013, 10:21 AM
How about making a list of those who believe that they themselves are God, predestinating others to hell because they don't understand their theological beliefs?

freelight
April 13th, 2013, 01:08 PM
I'd hope this is a joke because this is far from brotherly, shameful.


If anything consider it 'entertainment',...surely the title and impetus of such has its comical aspect, as 'heretics' have the unusual ability to stir the fires. It must be a 'play' because only 'God' really knows or understands the entire drama of human experience, belief and doctrinology,...and the presuppositions and factors that drive such in the world of religion or politics. After all this blows away,....what is left? Only the essence of truth itself. Come what may, think what may,....'God' alone (beyond definition or conception, but the essential reality) remains true, behind all the charades and appearances.



pj

Choleric
April 17th, 2013, 09:47 PM
I'd hope this is a joke because this is far from brotherly, shameful.

Actually this is in direct obedience to the Scripture. We are told to do the following:

Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. -Romans 16:17

Unless you think obeying that is optional. I look forward to your apology.

Pierac
April 23rd, 2013, 08:59 PM
I'd hope this is a joke because this is far from brotherly, shameful.


Actually this is in direct obedience to the Scripture. We are told to do the following:

Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. -Romans 16:17

Unless you think obeying that is optional. I look forward to your apology.


You must forgive Choleric... Iakabos

He thinks he has the right to judge other Christians... Can't wait to see his face when Jesus looks into his eyes and says.... I never knew you! :think:


:Poly::sherlock:
Paul

Angel4Truth
April 23rd, 2013, 09:29 PM
Where is the free thinker's category? Hardly seems like much of a satanly list without adding free thinkers.

A free thinker in my mind most fit those of us who allow for the existance of beings besides our humans selves.

To me its the ones who cannot think outside the box of themselves alone who the limited ones.

serpentdove
April 24th, 2013, 09:15 AM
"You must forgive Choleric...He thinks he has the right to judge other Christians."

:yawn: Eph 5:11

See:

Should Christians Judge? (http://kgov.com/should-christians-judge)

MarkA
April 24th, 2013, 09:19 AM
You must forgive Choleric... Iakabos

He thinks he has the right to judge other Christians... Can't wait to see his face when Jesus looks into his eyes and says.... I never knew you! :think:


:Poly::sherlock:
Paul

that sounds very sad to me,

not something I "couldn't wait" to see.

we shouldn't wait, we should do all we can to help him avoid that fate.

bybee
April 24th, 2013, 09:19 AM
:yawn: Eph 5:11

See:

Should Christians Judge? (http://kgov.com/should-christians-judge)

We cannot judge another's salvation or damnation but, we most certainly must judge their words and deeds. Or perhaps use discernment for association based on their words and deeds?
I don't care to be in presence of blasphemers or dirty talkers.
Those engaged in smug self-righteousness or attitudes of superiority also cause me to walk on the other side of the street.

Wile E. Coyote
April 24th, 2013, 09:35 AM
We cannot judge another's salvation or damnation but, we most certainly must judge their words and deeds. Or perhaps use discernment for association based on their words and deeds?
I don't care to be in presence of blasphemers or dirty talkers.
Those engaged in smug self-righteousness or attitudes of superiority also cause me to walk on the other side of the street.
Amen dear sister!

xAvarice
April 24th, 2013, 09:50 AM
A free thinker in my mind most fit those of us who allow for the existance of beings besides our humans selves.

To me its the ones who cannot think outside the box of themselves alone who the limited ones.

Hahaha! Oh the irony.

You're open minded about Allah or Zeus, then?

Pretend you're the free thinker, phhh. Bah Ram Ewe.

Markseasigh
April 24th, 2013, 10:07 AM
Si

actually,

Alah was the name of God Given by Abraham in the Quiron or WHATEVER THAT IS!

then anyway turns out Alah, is short for ALAHIYM, which is our ELOHI'YM.

THAT IS THE SAME GOD!! most christians don't recognize this as truth however.... oh well. ONE GOD! JAHOVAH!

Abraham did not know God By the Name Jahovah. only Elohiym. the vowel inconsistencies between the two languages allowed for Alahiym to unfold.

THE STORY OF ABRAHAM IS TRUE IN QUIRAN!!!!! ABRAHAM IS THE FATHER OF ALL THE NATIONS.

anyway, so technically everybody is killing each other over different gods, when really everyone has forgotten GODS name.

JAHOVAH ELOHI'YM THE ALMIGHTY AND POWERFUL GOD!

if this is too hard to understand for you muslim haters or lovers your not gonna agree that its the same GOd.
not saying I BELIEVE IN MUHAMMID.
but somebody does, cause thats the most common name on the planet for a male person.

I do Believe in God who is my Elohi'ym.

He revealed himself to MOSES as JAHOVAH ELOHI'YM. and said, Moses I am the Elohi'ym of your fathers, I am JAHOVAH (THE LORD) your GOD(Elohi'ym).

BUT if you praise me know me as JAH!

PRAISE JAH FOR GOD IS WORTHY OF PRAISE!

Psa 68:4 KJV - Sing unto God, sing praises to his name: extol him that rideth upon the heavens by his name JAH, and rejoice before him.

Markseasigh
April 24th, 2013, 10:09 AM
The Bible records when Divine beings came here in Genesis 6:1-4. Then there were mighty men, men of renoun. THIS IS HERCULES.

offspring of god and Man relation.

actually the same story is the reason for the Giant Goliath.

Choleric
April 24th, 2013, 10:37 AM
You must forgive Choleric... Iakabos

He thinks he has the right to judge other Christians... Can't wait to see his face when Jesus looks into his eyes and says.... I never knew you! :think:


:Poly::sherlock:
Paul

I don't judge Christians. I judge heretics, like you, who teach another gospel and are outside of the faith.

Choleric
April 24th, 2013, 10:40 AM
that sounds very sad to me,

not something I "couldn't wait" to see.

we shouldn't wait, we should do all we can to help him avoid that fate.

Pierac denies the divinity of Christ. He is a heretic headed for a lake of fire. There is nothing he can do to help me and God will not hear his prayers as Pierac is "none of His".

YahuShuan
April 24th, 2013, 04:06 PM
Do what HE says!
(Not what YOU think!)

Mat 12:50 “For whoever does the desire of My Father who is in the heavens is My brother and sister and mother.”

Mar 3:35 “For whoever does the desire of Elohim is My brother and My sister and mother.”

1Jn 2:4 The one who says, “I know Him,” and does not guard His commands, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1Jn 2:21-26 I did not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and because no falsehood is of the truth. Who is the liar, except the one denying that יהושע is the Messiah? This is the anti-messiah, the one denying the Father and the Son. No one denying the Son has the Father. The one confessing the Son has the Father as well. As for you, let that stay in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning stays in you, you also shall stay in the Son and in the Father. And this is the promise that He has promised us: everlasting life. I have written this to you concerning those who lead you astray.

1Jn 1: What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life: And the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and announce to you that everlasting life which was with the Father and was manifested to us. We announce to you what we have seen and heard, so that you too might have fellowship with us. And truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son יהושע Messiah. And we write this to you in order that your joy might be complete. And this is the message which we have heard from Him and announce to you, that Elohim is light and in Him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and are not doing the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of יהושע Messiah His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we are misleading ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is trustworthy and righteous to forgive us the sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Word is not in us.

Act 2:16-21 “But this is what was spoken by the prophet Yo’ĕl: ‘And it shall be in the last days, says Elohim, that I shall pour out of My Spirit on all flesh. And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams, and also on My male servants and on My female servants I shall pour out My Spirit in those days, and they shall prophesy. ‘And I shall show wonders in the heaven above and signs in the earth beneath: blood and fire and vapour of smoke. ‘The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and splendid day of יהוה. ‘And it shall be that everyone who calls on the Name of יהוה shall be saved.’

Act 4:8-12 Then Kĕpha, filled with the Set-apart Spirit, said to them, “Rulers of the people and elders of Yisra’ĕl: “If today we are called to account for a good deed towards a sick man, by whom he has been healed, let it be known to all of you, and to all the people of Yisra’ĕl, that in the Name of יהושע Messiah of Natsareth, whom you impaled, whom Elohim raised from the dead, by Him this one stands before you, healthy. “This is ‘the stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’ “And there is no deliverance in anyone else, for there is no other Name under the heaven given among men by which we need to be saved.”

THAT NAME IS YAHU’SHUA!

Act 2:36-40 “Therefore let all the house of Yisra’ĕl know for certain that Elohim has made this יהושע, whom you impaled, both Master and Messiah.” And having heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Kĕpha and the rest of the emissaries, “Men, brothers, what shall we do?” And Kĕpha said to them, “Repent, and let each one of you be immersed in the Name of יהושע Messiah for the forgiveness of sins. And you shall receive the gift of the Set-apart Spirit. “For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are far off, as many as יהוה our Elohim shall call.” And with many other words he earnestly witnessed and urged them, saying, “Be saved from this crooked generation.”

Mat 28:19, 20 “Therefore, go and make taught ones of all the nations, immersing them in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Set-apart Spirit, teaching them to guard all that I have commanded you. And see, I am with you always, until the end of the age.” Amĕn.

Note: The Name Yahu’Shua is the only Name that contains the Names of the Father, Son, AND Set-Apart Spirit all in ONE NAME.

2Co 6:14-18 Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness? And what fellowship has light with darkness? And what agreement has Messiah with Beliyaʽal? Or what part does a believer have with an unbeliever? And what union has the Dwelling Place of Elohim with idols? For you are a Dwelling Place of the living Elohim, as Elohim has said, “I shall dwell in them and walk among them, and I shall be their Elohim, and they shall be My people.” Therefore, “Come out from among them and be separate, says יהוה, and do not touch what is unclean, and I shall receive you. “And I shall be a Father to you, and you shall be sons and daughters to Me, says יהוה the Almighty.”

2Ch 7:12-22 And יהוה appeared to Shelomoh by night, and said to him, “I have heard your prayer, and have chosen this place for Myself as a house of slaughtering. “If I shut up the heavens and there is no rain, or if I command the locusts to devour the land, or if I send pestilence among My people, and My people upon whom My Name is called, shall humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their evil ways, then I shall hear from the heavens, and forgive their sin and heal their land. “Now, My eyes are open and My ears attentive to the prayer of this place. And now, I have chosen and set this house apart for My Name to be there forever. And My eyes and My heart shall always be there. And you, if you walk before Me as your father Dawiḏ walked, and do according to all that I have commanded you, and if you guard My laws and My right-rulings, then I shall establish the throne of your reign, as I covenanted with Dawiḏ your father, saying, ‘There is not to cease a man of yours as ruler in Yisra’ĕl.’ “But if you turn away and forsake My laws and My commands which I have set before you, and shall go and serve other mighty ones, and bow yourself to them, then I shall pluck them from My land, which I have given them, and this house which I have set apart for My Name I shall cast out of My sight and make it to be a proverb and a mockery among all peoples.“And this house, which has been exalted, everyone who passes by it is shall be astonished and say, ‘Why has יהוה done thus to this land and this house?’ “Then they shall say, ‘Because they forsook יהוה Elohim of their fathers, who brought them out of the land of Mitsrayim, and embraced other mighty ones, and bowed themselves to them and served them, therefore He has brought all this evil on them.’ ”

Rev 18:4, 5 And I heard another voice from the heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues. Because her sins have piled up to reach the heaven, and Elohim has remembered her unrighteousnesses.

Exo 20:1-11 And Elohim spoke all these Words, saying, “I am יהוה your Elohim, who brought you out of the land of Mitsrayim, out of the house of slavery. You have no other mighty ones against My face. You do not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of that which is in the heavens above, or which is in the earth beneath, or which is in the waters under the earth, you do not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, יהוה your Elohim am a jealous Ěl, visiting the crookedness of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing kindness to thousands, to those who love Me and guard My commands. You do not bring the Name of יהוה your Elohim to naught, for יהוה does not leave the one unpunished who brings His Name to naught. Remember the Sabbath day, to set it apart. Six days you labour, and shall do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of יהוה your Elohim. You do not do any work – you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days יהוה made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore יהוה blessed the Sabbath day and set it apart.”


Isa 28:9-12 Whom would He teach knowledge? And whom would He make to understand the message? Those weaned from milk, those taken from the breasts! For it is: command upon command, command upon command, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, there a little. For with a jabbering lip and a foreign tongue He speaks to this people, to whom He said, “This is the rest, give rest to the weary,” and, “This is the refreshing.” But they would not hear.

Ecc 12:11-14 The words of the wise are like goads, and as nails driven by the masters of collections – they were given by one Shepherd. And besides these, my son, be warned – the making of many books has no end, and much study is a wearying of the flesh. Let us hear the conclusion of the entire matter: Fear Elohim and guard His commands, for this applies to all mankind! For Elohim shall bring every work into right-ruling, including all that is hidden, whether good or whether evil.

Zep 3:7-13 “I have said, ‘Only fear Me, accept instruction.’ And her dwelling would not be cut off, all that I have appointed for her. But they rose up early, they corrupted all their deeds. Therefore wait for Me,” declares יהוה, “until the day I rise up for plunder. For My judgment is to gather nations, to assemble reigns, to pour out on them My rage, all my burning wrath. For by the fire of My jealousy all the earth shall be consumed. For then I shall turn unto the peoples a clean lip, so that they all call on the Name of יהוה, to serve Him with one shoulder. From beyond the rivers of Kush my worshippers, the daughter of My dispersed ones, shall bring My offering. In that day you shall not be put to shame for any of your deeds in which you have transgressed against Me, for then I shall remove from your midst your proud exulting ones, and you shall no more be haughty in My set-apart mountain. But I shall leave in your midst an oppressed and poor people, and they shall trust in the Name of יהוה. The remnant of Yisra’ĕl shall do no unrighteousness and speak no falsehood, nor is a tongue of deceit found in their mouth. For they shall feed their flocks and lie down, with none to frighten them.”

COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE!

CHANGE YOUR THINKING … “they are those who washed their robes white in the blood of the Lamb!”

"For I will make My Separated Name known in the midst of My people Israel," (Eze. 39:7). "If we had forgotten the Name of our Elohim, or stretched out our hands to a foreign mighty one, would not Elohim search this out?" (Psalm 44:20-21). "Fill their faces with shame, that they may seek Your Name O Yahúweh ... That men may know that You whose Name alone is Yahúweh , are the Most High over all the earth," (Psalm 83:16-18). Has our Messiah not clearly stated in John 17:26b that He will make His Father's Name known to us? Are we allowing Him, Who works in us, to do this work of restitution, of restoring, or giving us pure lips, "a pure language, that they all may call on the Name of Yahúweh "? (Zeph. 3:9)

Angel4Truth
April 24th, 2013, 05:57 PM
Hahaha! Oh the irony.

You're open minded about Allah or Zeus, then?

Pretend you're the free thinker, phhh. Bah Ram Ewe.

Open minded about there being a God instead of just myself enough to search out the truth yes, and found it. Found that allah is an idol and zeus a made up god for the purpose of greek fiction.

False Prophet
April 25th, 2013, 12:07 PM
Ro 2:1 Wherefore thou art without excuse, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judges another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest dost practise the same things. 2And we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against them that practise such things.
The righteous judgment of God is the standard of measure you mete out shall be measured back to you. Pursue peace with all men and holiness without which no one shall see the LORD. Like the holy one you are to be holy in ALL, ALL, ALL, your conduct. Jesus is coming back for a church without spot, blemish, or wrinkle. You think that you will escape the judgment of God by judging others when you do the same things. God is not mocked! What a man sows, that shall he reap; those who sow to the flesh shall reap corruption, those who sow to the Spirit shall reap eternal life.
Isa 13 Set ye up an ensign upon the bare mountain, lift up the voice unto them, wave the hand, that they may go into the gates of the nobles.
3I have commanded my consecrated ones, yea, I have called my mighty men for mine anger, even my proudly exulting ones.
4The noise of a multitude in the mountains, as of a great people! the noise of a tumult of the kingdoms of the nations gathered together! Jehovah of hosts is mustering the host for the battle.
5They come from a far country, from the uttermost part of heaven, even Jehovah, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land.
6Wail ye; for the day of Jehovah is at hand; as destruction from the Almighty shall it come.
7Therefore shall all hands be feeble, and every heart of man shall melt:
8and they shall be dismayed; pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them ; they shall be in pain as a woman in travail: they shall look in amazement one at another; their faces'shall be faces of flame.
9Behold, the day of Jehovah cometh, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger; to make the land a desolation, and to destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

Choleric
April 25th, 2013, 01:30 PM
Ro 2:1 Wherefore thou art without excuse, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judges another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest dost practise the same things. 2And we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against them that practise such things.
The righteous judgment of God is the standard of measure you mete out shall be measured back to you. Pursue peace with all men and holiness without which no one shall see the LORD. Like the holy one you are to be holy in ALL, ALL, ALL, your conduct. Jesus is coming back for a church without spot, blemish, or wrinkle. You think that you will escape the judgment of God by judging others when you do the same things. God is not mocked! What a man sows, that shall he reap; those who sow to the flesh shall reap corruption, those who sow to the Spirit shall reap eternal life.
Isa 13 Set ye up an ensign upon the bare mountain, lift up the voice unto them, wave the hand, that they may go into the gates of the nobles.
3I have commanded my consecrated ones, yea, I have called my mighty men for mine anger, even my proudly exulting ones.
4The noise of a multitude in the mountains, as of a great people! the noise of a tumult of the kingdoms of the nations gathered together! Jehovah of hosts is mustering the host for the battle.
5They come from a far country, from the uttermost part of heaven, even Jehovah, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land.
6Wail ye; for the day of Jehovah is at hand; as destruction from the Almighty shall it come.
7Therefore shall all hands be feeble, and every heart of man shall melt:
8and they shall be dismayed; pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them ; they shall be in pain as a woman in travail: they shall look in amazement one at another; their faces'shall be faces of flame.
9Behold, the day of Jehovah cometh, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger; to make the land a desolation, and to destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

Good point. We should be holy and obey the Scripture. Here are a few that this thread is in obedience to:

Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. -Romans 16:17

A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; -Titus 3:10

If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds. -2 John 1:10-11

Any person who does not want to obey those scriptures is not obedient in all things.

Thanks. :thumb:

freelight
April 25th, 2013, 02:28 PM
Angel4Truth wrote:

Open minded about there being a God instead of just myself enough to search out the truth yes, and found it. Found that allah is an idol and zeus a made up god for the purpose of greek fiction.



Hahaha! Oh the irony.

You're open minded about Allah or Zeus, then?

Pretend you're the free thinker, phhh. Bah Ram Ewe.


A true 'free thinker' has true intellectual freedom at all times, open to continual investigation, research and new discovery. A real 'free thinker' has nothing to lose in his search for truth, but previous assumptions and beliefs that are valueless, only serving the 'ego'. These are discarded when necessary.

It may be obvious or obscure that Zues, Allah, Brahma, Saraswati, Ahura Mazda, Apollo, Ra, YHWH, or any other divine personality or diety is just as good as 'conception' of 'God' as any other....including your own preferred 'form'. You couldnt prove absolutely your form is more valid or better, beyond your own set of presuppositions, logic, philosophical assumptions and epistemology anyways. Most 'gods' are projections of the religious mind, however deified.





pj

sky.
April 25th, 2013, 02:33 PM
Ive said this before but no one seems to care. Anyone who goes along with Open theism is a heretic and false teacher.

freelight
April 25th, 2013, 02:36 PM
Pierac denies the divinity of Christ. He is a heretic headed for a lake of fire. There is nothing he can do to help me and God will not hear his prayers as Pierac is "none of His".


I might behoove you to consider Jesus teaching on who can enter into the kingdom of heaven,....mainly those who do the will of God, accept and embrace his teaching, his testimony, and are faithful to the eternal principles of love and service...which he lived and taught. It is the disposition/attitude of the heart, the condition of 'repentance' (transformation of mind) that determines one's place in the kingdom.

In these instances there is nothing about believing in his 'divinity', which are mainly later religious assumptions and doctrinal impositions. 'God' looks at the heart and souls continue their eternal progress in the worlds or incarnations to come governed by such laws that uplift, enligten and empower souls to unfold their true potential and purpose.



pj

freelight
April 25th, 2013, 02:38 PM
Any person who does not want to obey those scriptures is not obedient in all things.



Which interpretation? ;)




pj

Lon
April 25th, 2013, 02:50 PM
You must forgive Choleric... Iakabos

He thinks he has the right to judge other Christians...
And then...


Can't wait to see his face when Jesus looks into his eyes and says.... I never knew you! :think:


:Poly::sherlock:
Paul

Oh the irony! :doh:

:think: That might be why you are on this list...

YahuShuan
April 26th, 2013, 04:47 AM
Good point. We should be holy and obey the Scripture. Here are a few that this thread is in obedience to:

Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. -Romans 16:17

A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; -Titus 3:10

If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds. -2 John 1:10-11

Any person who does not want to obey those scriptures is not obedient in all things.

Thanks. :thumb:

Titus? You use Titus for defending your being drunk on the blood of saints? Ok then, let's use what you said then, "Any person who does not want to obey those scriptures is not obedient in all things."

Tit 3:1-12 Remind them to be subject to rulers and authorities, to obey, to be ready for every good work, not to slander anyone, not to be quarrelsome, to be gentle, showing all meekness to all men. For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, led astray, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in evil and envy, being hated and hating one another. But when the kindness and the love of Elohim our Saviour toward man appeared, He saved us, not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to His compassion, through the washing of rebirth, and renewal by the Set-apart Spirit, which He poured out on us richly through יהושע Messiah our Saviour, that having been declared right by His favour we should become heirs according to the expectation of everlasting life. Trustworthy is the word, and in this regard I wish you to strongly affirm, that those who have believed in Elohim should keep their minds on maintaining good works. This is good and profitable to men. But keep away from foolish questions, and genealogies, and strife and quarrels about the Torah, for they are unprofitable and useless. Reject a divisive man after the first and second warning, knowing that such a one has been perverted, and sins, being self-condemned.

You self condemn yourself every time you write against another. The doctrine you have learned is NOT the doctrine that was received by the apostles. The doctrine they received was the "Word" that was "made flesh", and there was no New Testament even at the time it was being written, there was only "the Word" which obviously (to those not sent delusion), was the Old Testament. Which is exactly why on the road to Emmaeus, Yahu'Shua expounded of Himself FROM THE TORAH, THE PSALMS AND THE PROPHETS...and did not give them anything whatsoever from any New Testament. The New Testament is a New WITNESS...OF THE OLD TESTAMENT! And it is still being written, thankfully, not by people. The "Word" that is "trustworthy" was the Old Testament. But then, as it is now, the delivery was by those who could not get a grip on what "no falsehood is of the truth" meant. So Yahu'Shua straightened that out, and delivered it properly, and THAT is the doctrine first given to the saints! So what do you do? You disobey the doctrine, and "teach others to do so also". Because you refuse to learn what it is, so you pervert it, sin against it, and against those who "DO the Father's desire that is in Heaven", and so are continuously "self condemned". With absolutely no clue that because of your stance, Yahuweh has sent you "delusion". Quite a good one too...you don't even see it yourself. Par for the course though...for the deluded. You will indeed be caught like the thief in the night, quite unaware. You think you rejected me by putting me on this little list of yours? Ha! No, what you have done is because of your actions, "you are cut off from your people Israel". And will not receive the blessings promised to them. Unless you repent. Pray for Yah to open your eyes and ears to HIS WORD, so you can throw yours away when you see what a liar you really are.

I sure pray you get a grip on reality before it is too late.

MarkA
April 26th, 2013, 06:15 AM
Pierac denies the divinity of Christ. He is a heretic headed for a lake of fire. There is nothing he can do to help me and God will not hear his prayers as Pierac is "none of His".

that is not an easy subject for many.

it is hard to fathom how anyone besides God can make atonement ceremonies for sin, but the High priest did do it in OT.

MarkA
April 26th, 2013, 06:17 AM
Ive said this before but no one seems to care. Anyone who goes along with Open theism is a heretic and false teacher.

what is Open theism?

it's not that I don't care, I may be like many who just don't know.:think:

serpentdove
April 26th, 2013, 07:14 AM
what is Open theism?

it's not that I don't care, I may be like many who just don't know.:think:

See:

Is the Future Settled or Open? Samuel Lamerson vs. Bob Enyart (http://kgov.com/open-theism)

You can order a printed version (http://www.kgovstore.com/servlet/Detail?no=3)at kgov.com.

MarkA
April 26th, 2013, 07:48 AM
I should have clarified,

I don't care enough for myself to read about it, I care about others who have tho. :)

serpentdove
April 26th, 2013, 08:25 AM
"I should have clarified, I don't care enough for myself to read about it..." "Too bad." :chz4brnz: ~ Seth Brundle, The Fly Ac 17:11


"I care about others who have [though]." I've read it. :Plain: Enyart makes a good case. :mario:

Nick M
April 26th, 2013, 09:46 AM
Ive said this before but no one seems to care.

And for good reason.

Nick M
April 26th, 2013, 09:48 AM
what is Open theism?



A description of God's attributes give to us by him in the Bible. For example, God is relational. Do you agree or disagree with that statement?

If all is predetermined, which is easily shown to be wrong with the Bible, then how can he have a relaitonship with give and take and reacting to others?

Nick M
April 26th, 2013, 09:51 AM
it is hard to fathom how anyone besides God can make atonement ceremonies for sin, but the High priest did do it in OT.

Only God can forgive sin. Singular. The state of being. Besides the prophets declaring him to be God, and he saying it is so, here are some other things to ponder put together by another member here.


Note to the readers: I know this is long, but it is a must read by those who know that Jesus is God, those who are not sure, and those who deny Him. For those who do believe, it will provide you with the evidence you may need in the future to defend the truth.


Jesus is worshiped


Matthew 4:10

"Then Jesus said to him, "Begone, Satan! For it is written, 'You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only..'"

Matthew 2:2

"Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we saw His star in the east, and have come to worship Him."

Matthew 14:33

"And those who were in the boat worshiped Him, saying, "You are certainly God's Son!"

Matthew 2:11

"And they came into the house and saw the Child with Mary His mother; and they fell down and worshiped Him"

Matthew 28:9

"And behold, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshiped Him."

John 9:37

"Jesus said to him, "You have both seen Him, and He is the one who is talking with you." And he said, "Lord, I believe." And he worshiped Him."

Hebrews 1:6

"And when He again brings the first-born into the world, He says, "And let all the angels of God worship Him."

Revelation 22:8

"And I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things. And he said to me, "Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book; worship God."


When John worships a servant of God, he is rebuked. The servant of God tells John to "worship God"



Revelation 14:7

"Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters."


We are told by Jesus to worship the Lord God, and to serve Him only. Jesus receives worship over and over again. In the previous verse, and in the following verse we are told to worship God who created the heavens and the earth...

Jesus is worshiped in heaven


Revelation 4:8-11

"And the four living creatures, each one of them having six wings, are full of eyes around and within; and day and night they do not cease to say, "Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD God, the Almighty, who was and who is and who is to come." And when the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, to Him who lives forever and ever, the twenty-four elders will fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and will worship Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne, saying, "Worthy art Thou, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for Thou didst create all things, and because of Thy will they existed, and were created."

Genesis 1:1

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth"

Colossians 1:15-17

“And He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created by Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.”

Hebrews 1:1

“God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.”

Isa 45:21-23

Is it not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me. "Turn to Me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other. "I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness and will not turn back, that to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.

Philippians 2:5-11

“Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”

Acts 4:12

"And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved."

Isaiah 43:10 -11

"Before me there was no God formed and there will be none after Me. I, even I, am the LORD; and there is no Savior besides Me”



There always has been and always will be only one true God.

There is no Savior of the world except for this one true God.

Therefore, the Savior of the world must be the one true God.


1 John 4:14

"And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world"

Titus 2:13

"...looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus"

2 Peter 1:1

"Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ"

Rev 21:5-7

"And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." And He said, "Write, for these words are faithful and true." And He said to me, "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. "He who overcomes shall inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son"

Rev 22:12-16

"Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end." Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying. "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches"

Rev 1:8 & 17

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty....

"...And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as a dead man. And He laid His right hand upon me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore"

"The first and the last" died on the cross.

Isa 44:6

"Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God."



God = ALPHA and OMEGA
Jesus = ALPHA and OMEGA



God = FIRST and LAST
Jesus = FIRST and LAST



God = BEGINNING and END
Jesus = BEGINNING and END



God = Worship ONLY
Jesus = RECEIVES Worship



God = ONLY Savior and Lord
Jesus = Savior and Lord


Jesus claimed to be God


John 10:30-33

“I and the Father are One” “The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."


Jesus did not deny their words.


John 8:56-58

"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad." The Jews therefore said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM."

Exodus 3:14

And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"


Matthew 1:23

"Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and shall bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel," which translated means, "God with us."


It cannot be more clear. The child is God with us.


"For unto us a child is born, unto us a Son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulder: and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.


1 Timothy 3:16

“And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.”

Colossians 2:9

“For in Him all the fulness of Deity dwells in bodily form”


2 Corinthians 5:19

“God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself”


John 20:27-29

“Then He said to Thomas, "Reach here your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand, and put it into My side; and be not unbelieving, but believing." Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed."


Jesus claims to be Lord and God


Isa 45:5

"I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God."

John 1:1-3

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being."


Jesus is the Word, and the Word is God. Jesus created all things.


John 1:10-11

"He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him."

John 1:14

"And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."


Deuteronomy 4:35
"To you it was shown that you might know that the LORD, He is God; there is no other besides Him.



Those who claim that Jesus is not God have now been shown ample proof that He is in fact the God of the Bible, who created all things, and came among us as a child and was crucified on a cross for our sins, buried in a tomb and raised from the dead, and is worshiped by men and angels.

If you still deny that He is God, it is evidence to you and to others that you do not worship the God of the Bible, but you have a false god and a false Jesus.

You are from here forward without excuse.

Lazy afternoon
April 27th, 2013, 02:55 AM
Titus? You use Titus for defending your being drunk on the blood of saints? Ok then, let's use what you said then, "Any person who does not want to obey those scriptures is not obedient in all things."

Tit 3:1-12 Remind them to be subject to rulers and authorities, to obey, to be ready for every good work, not to slander anyone, not to be quarrelsome, to be gentle, showing all meekness to all men. For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, led astray, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in evil and envy, being hated and hating one another. But when the kindness and the love of Elohim our Saviour toward man appeared, He saved us, not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to His compassion, through the washing of rebirth, and renewal by the Set-apart Spirit, which He poured out on us richly through יהושע Messiah our Saviour, that having been declared right by His favour we should become heirs according to the expectation of everlasting life. Trustworthy is the word, and in this regard I wish you to strongly affirm, that those who have believed in Elohim should keep their minds on maintaining good works. This is good and profitable to men. But keep away from foolish questions, and genealogies, and strife and quarrels about the Torah, for they are unprofitable and useless. Reject a divisive man after the first and second warning, knowing that such a one has been perverted, and sins, being self-condemned.

You self condemn yourself every time you write against another. The doctrine you have learned is NOT the doctrine that was received by the apostles. The doctrine they received was the "Word" that was "made flesh", and there was no New Testament even at the time it was being written, there was only "the Word" which obviously (to those not sent delusion), was the Old Testament. Which is exactly why on the road to Emmaeus, Yahu'Shua expounded of Himself FROM THE TORAH, THE PSALMS AND THE PROPHETS...and did not give them anything whatsoever from any New Testament. The New Testament is a New WITNESS...OF THE OLD TESTAMENT! And it is still being written, thankfully, not by people. The "Word" that is "trustworthy" was the Old Testament. But then, as it is now, the delivery was by those who could not get a grip on what "no falsehood is of the truth" meant. So Yahu'Shua straightened that out, and delivered it properly, and THAT is the doctrine first given to the saints! So what do you do? You disobey the doctrine, and "teach others to do so also". Because you refuse to learn what it is, so you pervert it, sin against it, and against those who "DO the Father's desire that is in Heaven", and so are continuously "self condemned". With absolutely no clue that because of your stance, Yahuweh has sent you "delusion". Quite a good one too...you don't even see it yourself. Par for the course though...for the deluded. You will indeed be caught like the thief in the night, quite unaware. You think you rejected me by putting me on this little list of yours? Ha! No, what you have done is because of your actions, "you are cut off from your people Israel". And will not receive the blessings promised to them. Unless you repent. Pray for Yah to open your eyes and ears to HIS WORD, so you can throw yours away when you see what a liar you really are.

I sure pray you get a grip on reality before it is too late.

I agree.

LA

Pierac
April 28th, 2013, 08:19 PM
I stated…… !


You must forgive Choleric... Iakabos

He thinks he has the right to judge other Christians... Can't wait to see his face when Jesus looks into his eyes and says.... I never knew you! :think:


:Poly::sherlock:
Paul

Mark added…
that sounds very sad to me, not something I "couldn't wait" to see.
we shouldn't wait, we should do all we can to help him avoid that fate.

And Choleric had to add!

I don't judge Christians. I judge heretics, like you, who teach another gospel and are outside of the faith.
Pierac denies the divinity of Christ. He is a heretic headed for a lake of fire. There is nothing he can do to help me and God will not hear his prayers as Pierac is "none of His".

Then Lon feels the need to add….


Oh the irony! :doh:
:think: That might be why you are on this list...

You idiots… You know I’m a universalist … yet your so committed to following your platonic hell that does not exist in scripture! You attach your evil views to me! :rolleyes:

The least you could do is know the views you post against!!! I don't follow Plato like you.... The soul is not immortal!!!

1Ti 6:16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

Alone possesses... means somthing here... idiots!! :think:

:Poly::sherlock:
Paul

bucksplasher
April 28th, 2013, 08:28 PM
I stated…… !



Mark added…

And Choleric had to add!


Then Lon feels the need to add….


You idiots… You know I’m a universalist … yet your so committed to following your platonic hell that does not exist in scripture! You attach your evil views to me! :rolleyes:

The least you could do is know the views you post against!!! I don't follow Plato like you.... The soul is not immortal!!!

1Ti 6:16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

Alone possesses... means somthing here... idiots!! :think:

:Poly::sherlock:
Paul

The "return" of the "old" Letsargue? tWINs

Pierac
April 28th, 2013, 09:57 PM
The "return" of the "old" Letsargue? tWINs

Oh, like the others here will understand the 1879 views of "Letsargue"

Really... Your response was so scholarly.... You will surely be made the next Pope you worship as God! :think:

You can let go of your ankles now!!! :BRAVO:
Paul

Pierac
April 28th, 2013, 10:38 PM
We cannot judge another's salvation or damnation but, we most certainly must judge their words and deeds. Or perhaps use discernment for association based on their words and deeds?
I don't care to be in presence of blasphemers or dirty talkers.
Those engaged in smug self-righteousness or attitudes of superiority also cause me to walk on the other side of the street.

Then WHY DO YOU post on Satan, Inc (Tol's heretic's list) :think:

Do you really not see your hypocrisy: (the false assumption of an appearance of virtue or religion ) in what you just posted here? You actually wrote your comment on a thread that actually reads... Satan, Inc (Tol's heretic's list) !!! :rolleyes:


Thank you for making my point!!!! You are one of the blasphemers and/or dirty talkers who chose to be here and reply to...what you call... in presence of blasphemers or dirty talkers...:doh:

:Poly::sherlock:
Paul

Glenda
April 28th, 2013, 11:45 PM
I stated…… !

You must forgive Choleric... Iakabos

He thinks he has the right to judge other Christians... Can't wait to see his face when Jesus looks into his eyes and says.... I never knew you! :think:


:Poly::sherlock:
Paul


Mark added…

that sounds very sad to me,

not something I "couldn't wait" to see.

we shouldn't wait, we should do all we can to help him avoid that fate.

...

You idiots… You know I’m a universalist … yet your so committed to following your platonic hell that does not exist in scripture! You attach your evil views to me! :rolleyes:

The least you could do is know the views you post against!!! I don't follow Plato like you.... The soul is not immortal!!!

1Ti 6:16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

Alone possesses... means somthing here... idiots!! :think:

:Poly::sherlock:
Paul

Mark never claimed the soul was immortal. Mark simply said he wished Choleric not to suffer that fate you described ie seeing Jesus look into Choleric's eyes while saying 'I never knew you'
I agree with Mark. It would be a dreadful thing for Choleric to experience and may God please heal Choleric's blindness so he may repent rather than suffer that horrible fate. I wouldn't wish this on myself or anyone! Love others as yourself. Love your enemies.

Pierac, you have self-righteously publicly misjudged others in pride. May you also recognise need of repentance from this you valued human created in God's image.

bucksplasher
April 29th, 2013, 05:56 AM
Oh, like the others here will understand the 1879 views of "Letsargue"

Really... Your response was so scholarly.... You will surely be made the next Pope you worship as God! :think:

You can let go of your ankles now!!! :BRAVO:
Paul

Good to see you back. Seem a little feistier than I remember. tWINs

TruthSetsFree
April 29th, 2013, 12:18 PM
Mark never claimed the soul was immortal. Mark simply said he wished Choleric not to suffer that fate you described ie seeing Jesus look into Choleric's eyes while saying 'I never knew you'
I agree with Mark. It would be a dreadful thing for Choleric to experience and may God please heal Choleric's blindness so he may repent rather than suffer that horrible fate. I wouldn't wish this on myself or anyone! Love others as yourself. Love your enemies.

Pierac, you have self-righteously publicly misjudged others in pride. May you also recognise need of repentance from this you valued human created in God's image.

can't help mentioning what this reminds me of... though to some who dont u/stand it will not make a lot of sense

again, I have had it happen to me over and over... I will think that God and I are doing just fine... no mortal sins on my soul (unabsolved)... no big venial ones... etc..

Then i will spend time in Christ's Real PResence in the Church

and... DIFFERENT story!!!!!!!!

its not that Jesus says i am a horrible sinner and etc... (tho i can be that)

its just that... a person gets MESSED UP living in this awful world, which is far more awful than most realize... until one is in HIS Presence... (found in the Catholic Church)


.

sky.
April 29th, 2013, 03:08 PM
what is Open theism?

it's not that I don't care, I may be like many who just don't know.:think:

It's the belief that "they" the "open" "just like God" have the authority to hate in Gods name. In other words they control the "openness of God".

They also have this grudge against anything Calvin.

serpentdove
April 29th, 2013, 03:52 PM
[What is open theism?] "It's the belief that "they" the "open" "just like God" have the authority to hate in Gods name. In other words they control the "openness of God"." :yawn: Who is controlling God? :dizzy: Are you free to change your mind? Is God free to change his mind? Jon 3:4, 3:10


"They also have this grudge against anything Calvin." :yawn: We disagree with the Greek paganism that Calvin promoted. :hammer:

sky.
April 29th, 2013, 04:24 PM
:yawn: Who is controlling God? :dizzy: Are you free to change your mind? Is God free to change his mind? Jon 3:4, 3:10


Why would God need to change His mind? Is God mixed up?

Pierac
April 29th, 2013, 05:20 PM
Good to see you back. Seem a little feistier than I remember. tWINs

Tell Grandma, to give you... your meds... :chuckle:

I have been here since 2007! :doh:

Oh, and buy the way... I know of your two guys history... from many years ago... Are you really seeing tWINs everywhere now?


:Poly::sherlock:
Paul

bucksplasher
April 29th, 2013, 05:38 PM
Tell Grandma, to give you... your meds... :chuckle:

I have been here since 2007! :doh:

Oh, and buy the way... I know of your two guys history... from many years ago... Are you really seeing tWINs everywhere now?


:Poly::sherlock:
Paul

You and I (tWINs) but me without the "big" letters. I know I saw you in 2007 but not recently. Must be moving on different threads.

It just might be in God's Trinidadian plan for us.

tWINs

Angel4Truth
April 29th, 2013, 07:12 PM
Why would God need to change His mind? Is God mixed up?

Does your bible not speak about Him changing His mind about destroying Nineveh?

Glenda
April 29th, 2013, 07:21 PM
...
again, I have had it happen to me over and over... I will think that God and I are doing just fine...
...
Then i will spend time in Christ's Real PResence ...
... DIFFERENT story!!!!!!!!



Thank you for sharing this. I relate to this totally! I think the most dangerous times are when we think we are doing 'just fine' ... big mistake. That consideration lets our guard down and makes us more vulnerable to fall into pride, foolishness etc then we feel shame when we recognise we have fallen during this 'just fine' time. We need to keep watchful to not fall into temptation
thanks & blessings

serpentdove
April 29th, 2013, 07:45 PM
Why would God need to change His mind? You can change your mind. Can God change his mind?


Is God mixed up?
Did the Ninevites repent? How did God respond? Jon 3:10. How will God respond when men genuinely repent today? Jn 6:37, Jas 4:6