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beloved57
September 14th, 2012, 09:07 AM
Matt 19:16-26

16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.


This passage actually is teaching the Truth that Jesus is God ! Notice vs 17 As the young man had addressed Jesus as good, and Jesus responded accordingly, why callest thou me good, for none is good but ONE, that One Being God

Now , notice Jesus did not say, none is good but One and that is my Father, but He said that One, Being God !

Now if Jesus by this is not insinuating that He is God, then the alternative is that He was not good, seeing He just said only ONE, not Two, but ONLY ONE is good.

Now, if Jesus was not good, being that He was not the Only One Good God, then His commanding him, the young ruler, in order to be perfect, that he must go sell all his possessions, then give to the poor, and follow Him; Such an commandment exposed that the young man loved his possessions above God, which was a violation of the very first commandment, now if Jesus was not God, then the young mans refusal to obey and follow Jesus, could not be a proper standard to gauge his Love to God !

For there could not have been nothing amiss about not making such a great sacrifice as that Jesus told him, and then following Him if the One speaking was not the One God, who Only was good !

M_Wm_Ferguson_MTh
September 14th, 2012, 01:29 PM
Matt 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
.....
Notice vs 17 As the young man had addressed Jesus as good, and Jesus responded accordingly, why callest thou me good, for none is good but ONE, that One Being GodRegarding Matt. 19:17, this verse appears in no extant Greek manuscript predating the compilation of orthodox Christian scripture in the mid-to-late 4th century CE. At that time, the Greek version of this verse (spec., ΤΙΜΕΕΡΩΤΑΣΠΕΡΙΤΟΥΑΓΑΘΟΥΕΙΣΕΣΤΙΝΟΑΓΑΘΟΣ, "Why do you ask me about what is good? One exists that is good") was replaced by the wording in the parallel accounts seen in Mark 10:18 and Luke 18:19 ("Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone."; see Metzger, TCGNT 2nd ed, 39). The wording seen in the KJV is a form of that parallel wording.

There is no reference in this verse, either direct or implied, that Jesus is God. Rather, Jesus was:


expressing in couched terms (to avoid being killed by his opponents) that the word "God" means love and goodness (1 John 4:8; Matt. 11:15), and
contrasting his understanding of the nature of God with the tribal and cruel spirit God, YHVH (Jehovah), revered by the Jews both then and now.

beloved57
September 14th, 2012, 03:05 PM
Regarding Matt. 19:17, this verse appears in no extant Greek manuscript predating the compilation of orthodox Christian scripture in the mid-to-late 4th century CE. At that time, the Greek version of this verse (spec., ΤΙΜΕΕΡΩΤΑΣΠΕΡΙΤΟΥΑΓΑΘΟΥΕΙΣΕΣΤΙΝΟΑΓΑΘΟΣ, "Why do you ask me about what is good? One exists that is good") was replaced by the wording in the parallel accounts seen in Mark 10:18 and Luke 18:19 ("Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone."; see Metzger, TCGNT 2nd ed, 39). The wording seen in the KJV is a form of that parallel wording.

That crap means nothing to me !

keypurr
September 14th, 2012, 07:58 PM
If Jesus died then he is not God for God can not die.

Paul says he is the image of God, not God.

Wile E. Coyote
September 14th, 2012, 08:02 PM
If Jesus died then he is not God for God can not die.
Death to the Jew was to descend into sheol. God can descend into sheol. David said so.

"If I make my bed in sheol thou art there."

Therefore, God can die.

Iconodule
September 14th, 2012, 08:07 PM
If Jesus died then he is not God for God can not die.

Jesus Christ is one person in two natures, fully human and fully divine. He died in his humanity, not his divinity. However, since Christ is one person it is proper to say that "God died," so long as we understand that the divine nature did not die.

Likewise it is good to call the Virgin Mary "Mother of God" as she gave birth to God in the flesh.


Paul says he is the image of God, not God.

He is the express image of God the Father. How is that possible? Because he has the same nature as God the Father and is therefore himself God.

"The Word became flesh, and dwelt among us..."

I close with one of my favorite Christian hymns:

Only begotten Son and Immortal Word of God, Who for our salvation willed to be incarnate of the Holy Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary; Who without change became man, and were crucified, O Christ our God, trampling down death by death; who are one of the Holy Trinity, glorified with the Father and the Holy Spirit- save us!

keypurr
September 14th, 2012, 08:17 PM
Jesus Christ is one person in two natures, fully human and fully divine. He died in his humanity, not his divinity. However, since Christ is one person it is proper to say that "God died," so long as we understand that the divine nature did not die.

i disagree. Jesus and Christ died

Likewise it is good to call the Virgin Mary "Mother of God" as she gave birth to God in the flesh.

I disagree again, she is the mother of Jesus


He is the express image of God the Father. How is that possible? Because he has the same nature as God the Father and is therefore himself God.

"The Word became flesh, and dwelt among us..."

I close with one of my favorite Christian hymns:

Only begotten Son and Immortal Word of God, Who for our salvation willed to be incarnate of the Holy Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary; Who without change became man, and were crucified, O Christ our God, trampling down death by death; who are one of the Holy Trinity, glorified with the Father and the Holy Spirit- save us!

The key words are "express image", that is a creation.
Christ is a copy of the father, a god, and he can die.

Peace

keypurr
September 14th, 2012, 08:20 PM
Death to the Jew was to descend into sheol. God can descend into sheol. David said so.

"If I make my bed in sheol thou art there."

Therefore, God can die.

To twist or not to twist. Death is death Wile, there is no in between.
God can not die, at least my God can't.

Iconodule
September 14th, 2012, 08:27 PM
i disagree. Jesus and Christ died

Jesus Christ is one person, fully God and fully man. Therefore, to say "Jesus Christ died" is to say "God died." You cannot separate Jesus from God.


Likewise it is good to call the Virgin Mary "Mother of God" as she gave birth to God in the flesh.

I disagree again, she is the mother of Jesus

And again, Jesus is God. She is therefore the Mother of God.


The key words are "express image", that is a creation.
Christ is a copy of the father, a god, and he can die.

Peace

Incorrect.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

beloved57
September 14th, 2012, 08:36 PM
To twist or not to twist. Death is death Wile, there is no in between.
God can not die, at least my God can't.

The God I serve did die as the Man Jesus Christ Rev 2:8

And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

This is the risen Christ speaking who died and is alive, byt he also Identifies Himself as The First and the Last, who is God Isa 44:6

Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.



I am speaking of the Christ and God I serve, you serve a different god and christ from me anyway !

Pneuma
September 14th, 2012, 08:40 PM
Jesus Christ is one person, fully God and fully man. Therefore, to say "Jesus Christ died" is to say "God died." You cannot separate Jesus from God.



And again, Jesus is God. She is therefore the Mother of God.



Incorrect.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Jesus is God, he is just NOT God the Father.

Jn.1:1 is not talking about God the Father but rather speaking of the Son.

They are two different beings in full agreement, thus they are one.

Iconodule
September 14th, 2012, 08:46 PM
Jesus is God, he is just NOT God the Father.

Jn.1:1 is not talking about God the Father but rather speaking of the Son.

They are two different beings in full agreement, thus they are one.

They are two distinct persons with one being. They are not merely in full agreement but united in essence.

Pneuma
September 14th, 2012, 09:04 PM
They are two distinct persons with one being. They are not merely in full agreement but united in essence.


By that analogy I guess we are all God, many distinct beings united in essence.

That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:


So do you believe you are God?

Eeset
September 14th, 2012, 09:08 PM
Sometimes the discussions on TOL make me want to dye my hair blond and go to work at Walmart! No human can comprehend God nor can anyone discern His thoughts. To discuss what God or Jesus is strikes me as close to delusion. Many have debated for over thousands of years the words recorded in Scripture. That accomplishes nothing except maybe to start a few wars. I say unto you that you will find what you seek. You may seek the esteem of others for your impressive knowledge of Scriptures or you may seek God. It is your choice.

Iconodule
September 14th, 2012, 09:14 PM
By that analogy I guess we are all God, many distinct beings united in essence.

Your reasoning does not follow. Man is created; God is uncreate and eternal.


That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

We can be united to God by grace, but never by nature.

Pneuma
September 14th, 2012, 09:17 PM
Sometimes the discussions on TOL make me want to dye my hair blond and go to work at Walmart! No human can comprehend God nor can anyone discern His thoughts. To discuss what God or Jesus is strikes me as close to delusion. Many have debated for over thousands of years the words recorded in Scripture. That accomplishes nothing except maybe to start a few wars. I say unto you that you will find what you seek. You may seek the esteem of others for your impressive knowledge of Scriptures or you may seek God. It is your choice.


Read Keyburrs slogan.

If we cannot comprehend God we cannot have eternal life.

Pneuma
September 14th, 2012, 09:21 PM
Your reasoning does not follow. Man is created; God is uncreate and eternal.



We can be united to God by grace, but never by nature.


It is the very nature/essense of God in us that makes us eternal.

But that does not make us God.

keypurr
September 14th, 2012, 09:23 PM
The God I serve did die as the Man Jesus Christ Rev 2:8z

My God can not die, but his son can.


And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

I do not dispute jesus died and was raise, just that God did not die.


This is the risen Christ speaking who died and is alive, byt he also Identifies Himself as The First and the Last, who is God Isa 44:6

Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.


I am speaking of the Christ and God I serve, you serve a different god and christ from me anyway !

I know your faith, I had at one time. I see Jesus as a man, the Christ as a spirit. Jesus did have a duel nature, one of the flesh and one of the spirit. Jesus was born in Bethleham, Christ was created before the worlds.

Christ was IN Jesus. Christ is the express image of God. God is spirit, Christ is spirit. My beliefs.

Peace

keypurr
September 14th, 2012, 09:30 PM
Jesus Christ is one person, fully God and fully man. Therefore, to say "Jesus Christ died" is to say "God died." You cannot separate Jesus from God.

Consider that there was Christ before there was Jesus.


And again, Jesus is God. She is therefore the Mother of God.

Jesus has a God, you can not have a God and be the almighty god. Jesus tells us that his father is the only true God. I believe him. I do think Christ is a form of god.




Incorrect.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

In the beginning was the "logos", what is the "logos"

Friend, TOL would be very dull if we all agreed. Its OK to think YOUR way, I just think your wrong.

As Mr Knight would say, "Welcome to the Jungle"

Peace

Iconodule
September 14th, 2012, 10:03 PM
It is the very nature/essense of God in us that makes us eternal.

But that does not make us God.

I am using the term nature/ essence ("ousia") in the same way that the Fathers of the Church used it. Perhaps you mean something else.

The nature of God is not "in" us. Our souls are impermanent by nature; only by God's grace are they immortal, because God is the only one immortal by nature.

Iconodule
September 14th, 2012, 10:09 PM
Consider that there was Christ before there was Jesus.

The Son of God existed from eternity, eternally begotten of the Father, and was incarnate and in taking flesh also took the name "Jesus". That does not mean Jesus is a different person from the Son of God.


Jesus has a God, you can not have a God and be the almighty god. Jesus tells us that his father is the only true God. I believe him. I do think Christ is a form of god.

The Father is the one true God. The Son, being of one essence with the Father, is also the one true God.

What does "form of god" mean? Either he is God, or he is a created being and therefore not God. If Jesus Christ is not God he could not be the Savior, because only God could save us.

Your teaching sounds much like what Arius preached. That's not good.


In the beginning was the "logos", what is the "logos"

The Logos is the Son of God, who took flesh and is now known as Jesus.


Friend, TOL would be very dull if we all agreed. Its OK to think YOUR way, I just think your wrong.

Do you feel that people are attacking your freedom of speech whenever they disagree with you? Are you so insecure in your beliefs?

Pneuma
September 14th, 2012, 10:13 PM
I am using the term nature/ essence ("ousia") in the same way that the Fathers of the Church used it. Perhaps you mean something else.

The nature of God is not "in" us. Our souls are impermanent by nature; only by God's grace are they immortal, because God is the only one immortal by nature.

And He/God gives us that immortal nature.

Jesus is only the HEAD of the body of Christ.

Christ is a many membered body.

Iconodule
September 14th, 2012, 10:16 PM
And He/God gives us that immortal nature.


Again, we do not have the nature of God. God's nature is infinitely impenetrable and incomprehensible. We only know God through his energies.

Here's a starter so you can understand what I mean:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essence–Energies_distinction#Nature_of_the_essence-energies_distinction_in_God

Pneuma
September 14th, 2012, 10:17 PM
What does "form of god" mean? Either he is God, or he is a created being and therefore not God. If Jesus Christ is not God he could not be the Savior, because only God could save us.


Adam/man was created of God, Jesus Christ was born of God.

That which is born is not created.

keypurr
September 14th, 2012, 10:21 PM
The Son of God existed from eternity, eternally begotten of the Father, and was incarnate and in taking flesh also took the name "Jesus". That does not mean Jesus is a different person from the Son of God.

Yes, the father is nat a creation, but I believe his son is.


The Father is the one true God. The Son, being of one essence with the Father, is also the one true God.

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Nope, believe Jesus, see the word "only"


What does "form of god" mean? Either he is God, or he is a created being and therefore not God. If Jesus Christ is not God he could not be the Savior, because only God could save us.

Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

God has no limits friend, he can create another god if he so desires.

Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.


Your teaching sounds much like what Arius preached. That's not good.

Why?



The Logos is the Son of God, who took flesh and is now known as Jesus.

Scholars have debated that for centuries.



Do you feel that people are attacking your freedom of speech whenever they disagree with you? Are you so insecure in your beliefs?

No, but your new here and I did not want you to think I was after your skin. I do not mean to offend, just discuss. but we should always question if we know enough about God.

Pneuma
September 14th, 2012, 10:22 PM
Again, we do not have the nature of God. God's nature is infinitely impenetrable and incomprehensible. We only know God through his energies.

Here's a starter so you can understand what I mean:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essence–Energies_distinction#Nature_of_the_essence-energies_distinction_in_God

Icon Christ is a many membered body, it is NOT just one person named Jesus. Jesus is just the HEAD of the body.

And if Gods nature is impenetrable and incomprehensible the no one can have eternal life.

To know God is to KNOW Him, not just know about Him.

Iconodule
September 14th, 2012, 11:27 PM
Icon Christ is a many membered body, it is NOT just one person named Jesus. Jesus is just the HEAD of the body.

You are confused about the use of the term "Body of Christ" to refer to the Church. In the Church, we are united to Christ, especially by partaking of his Body and Blood in communion. That is why the Church is called "Body of Christ". Christ of course is the head of the Church. But Jesus Christ remains one person.


And if Gods nature is impenetrable and incomprehensible the no one can have eternal life.

Not so. God grants us eternal life by his grace.


To know God is to KNOW Him, not just know about Him.

Yes, and the best way to know him is to enter into his Church, instead of just trying to cobble together your own understanding from what you read.

Iconodule
September 14th, 2012, 11:31 PM
Listen to Saint Athanasius:

God made all things out of nothing through His own Word, our Lord Jesus Christ and of all these His earthly creatures He reserved especial mercy for the race of men. Upon them, therefore, upon men who, as animals, were essentially impermanent, He bestowed a grace which other creatures lacked—namely the impress of His own Image, a share in the reasonable being of the very Word Himself, so that, reflecting Him and themselves becoming reasonable and expressing the Mind of God even as He does.

beloved57
September 15th, 2012, 02:30 AM
kp


My God can not die, but his son can.


I have nothing to do with your god !

Pneuma
September 15th, 2012, 07:46 AM
You are confused about the use of the term "Body of Christ" to refer to the Church. In the Church, we are united to Christ, especially by partaking of his Body and Blood in communion. That is why the Church is called "Body of Christ". Christ of course is the head of the Church. But Jesus Christ remains one person.


12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

The HEAD/Jesus cannot say to the feet/us I have no need of you.

Without us Christ is not complete, thus the whole world is still in travail.

We read in Acts 9:3-6
3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: 4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. 6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

Paul was persecuting the body of Christ, yet the Lord said to Paul why persecutest thou ME.


Until the whole body of Christ is crucified there still remains prophesy concerning Christ yet unfulfilled.
*
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Colossians 1:24

24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind/lacking of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body’s sake, which is the church:


There was nothing lacking in Jesus afflictions He paid the full price correct?

Christ is not just the HEAD/JESUS but a many membered body, all prophesy concerning Christ must also be concerning the body and not just the head.

*
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Genesis 3:15

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Romans 16:19-20
19 For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil. 20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

*
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Hebrews 2:8-9

8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.


Why do we not see all things put in subjection to Christ?


Because we are the FEET and all things will not be put under subjection until the FEET are made manifest to the world.

But what do we see? We see Jesus the HEAD of the BODY of CHRIST.

Those scriptures do not pertains to Jesus Christ ALONE but to EVERY member of the BODY of CHRIST.

Until the FEET are formed the subjection of all things CANNOT take place.

Thus this prophesy in Gen.3:15 will not be completed until the manifestation of the feet company.





Not so. God grants us eternal life by his grace.

While you might not believe it but Jesus says

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.








Yes, and the best way to know him is to enter into his Church, instead of just trying to cobble together your own understanding from what you read.


I take it you are referring to the RCC. Sorry but that ain't the church.

The best way to know God the Father is to listen to the HEAD/Jesus because all others only see God the Father through a glass darkly.

Pneuma
September 15th, 2012, 07:49 AM
Listen to Saint Athanasius:

God made all things out of nothing through His own Word, our Lord Jesus Christ and of all these His earthly creatures He reserved especial mercy for the race of men. Upon them, therefore, upon men who, as animals, were essentially impermanent, He bestowed a grace which other creatures lacked—namely the impress of His own Image, a share in the reasonable being of the very Word Himself, so that, reflecting Him and themselves becoming reasonable and expressing the Mind of God even as He does.

I would rather listen to Jesus for all other see God the Father through a glass darkly.

Pneuma
September 15th, 2012, 07:57 AM
kp




I have nothing to do with your god !



Beloved we all worship the same God, our understanding of God just differs.

When Moses raised up the serpent we are told that it was a representation of Jesus being lifted up on the cross.

What did the people do with the serpent Moses raised up? They began to worship that serpent as God.

And people are doing the same thing today with Jesus, they worship Him/Jesus as God.

Just as those of olden days made an idol out of the serpent, people today have made an idol out of Jesus.


Jesus is the best of us all, but he is not God the Father.

SeraphimsCherub
September 15th, 2012, 08:12 AM
These Three Verses Pretty Much Sums It All Up To Me That JESUS IS GOD!

1.Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Because GOD IS THE EVER PRESENT ETERNAL NOW,HE IS therefore changeless,and REMAINS THE SAME ETERNAL EVERLASTING FOREVER. Therefore in Hebrews is written the Divine utterance,and Revelation of this fact:
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

3.Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.


I mean...how much clearer can it get by those statements that JESUS IS 100% ALMIGHTY GOD ?? This isn't rocket science folks!

Pneuma
September 15th, 2012, 08:37 AM
These Three Verses Pretty Much Sums It All Up To Me That JESUS IS GOD!

1.Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Because GOD IS THE EVER PRESENT ETERNAL NOW,HE IS therefore changeless,and REMAINS THE SAME ETERNAL EVERLASTING FOREVER. Therefore in Hebrews is written the Divine utterance,and Revelation of this fact:
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

3.Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.


I mean...how much clearer can it get by those statements that JESUS IS 100% ALMIGHTY GOD ?? This isn't rocket science folks!



Sorry but none of those scriptures state Jesus is God the Father, you only get that understanding by inference.


Jesus throughout scripture always makes a distinction between the Father and Himself.

I go to my God and your God

Jesus God is the same as our God.

The Father is greater then I

If Jesus tells us the Father is greater then Him should we not listen to Jesus?

beloved57
September 15th, 2012, 09:46 AM
pn


Beloved we all worship the same God,

Uh no we do not ! If you want to discuss that, we need to discuss how you believe one is saved, but not here in this thread !

SeraphimsCherub
September 15th, 2012, 09:51 AM
Anyone can choose to use what ever verses they desire in want to convince another of what they believe. The greater POWER i choose to believe JESUS CHRIST IS{THE MOST HIGH GOD,BOTH IN THE SPIRITUAL REALM,AND THE PHYSICAL} to be. The greater my faith will be in HIM and what HE CAN DO. He who has the POWER to lay down HIS life,and the POWER to RAISE it back up agian. IS GOD. Demons who are a far greater power than you,or I,believe in HIM,and TREMBLE. So we might want to think long and hard about who we choose to believe JESUS CHRIST really is. The MAN put ETERNITY on HIS WORDS,and said..."HEAVEN,AND EARTH SHALL PASS AWAY BUT MY WORDS ABIDETH FOREVER,AND SHALL NEVER PASS AWAY!

SeraphimsCherub
September 15th, 2012, 10:18 AM
Not that a correct belief in WHO THE HIGHER POWER TRULY is,is in the power of your's or my own will. But is granted by the GRACE OF GOD,and HIM ALONE.

Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Apple7
September 15th, 2012, 10:39 AM
This passage actually is teaching the Truth that Jesus is God !

How does this square with your theory that Jesus is the Archangel Michael...?

:cigar:

beloved57
September 15th, 2012, 11:36 AM
How does this square with your theory that Jesus is the Archangel Michael...?

:cigar:

I have explained that already, so get to looking !

Apple7
September 15th, 2012, 12:26 PM
I have explained that already, so get to looking !

Let me guess...instead of answering my direct question with a direct answer, this is where you tell me to to read through 1,000 pages that still provides no direct answer....right?

beloved57
September 15th, 2012, 01:29 PM
Let me guess...instead of answering my direct question with a direct answer, this is where you tell me to to read through 1,000 pages that still provides no direct answer....right?

Thats right ! I dealt with that before, and you not worth answering it again ! I can care less what you think. If you keep bugging me you will go on ignore also !

M_Wm_Ferguson_MTh
September 15th, 2012, 02:17 PM
That crap means nothing to me !Obviously.

Suggestions:


1: Google it;
2: ask your spiritual leader, or
3: get thee to a seminary :)

Apple7
September 15th, 2012, 03:35 PM
Thats right ! I dealt with that before, and you not worth answering it again ! I can care less what you think. If you keep bugging me you will go on ignore also !

At 63, you should be able to provide a more direct answer than that....come on...

keypurr
September 15th, 2012, 03:58 PM
kp




I have nothing to do with your god !

You should for he is the only true God. I think we have the same one but we see him in a different way.

I have the same God Jesus has, so do you.

keypurr
September 15th, 2012, 04:05 PM
These Three Verses Pretty Much Sums It All Up To Me That JESUS IS GOD!

1.Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Because GOD IS THE EVER PRESENT ETERNAL NOW,HE IS therefore changeless,and REMAINS THE SAME ETERNAL EVERLASTING FOREVER. Therefore in Hebrews is written the Divine utterance,and Revelation of this fact:
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

3.Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.


I mean...how much clearer can it get by those statements that JESUS IS 100% ALMIGHTY GOD ?? This isn't rocket science folks!

I call you attention to The words "son of the most high God".

The term Most high God is used all through scripture. Jesus is called the son of the most high God. That means he is not the almighty, but the son of. It also implies a second and lesser deity. Christ is the express image of God and the father was pleased that it had his fullness.

Just something to ponder over.

Peace

keypurr
September 15th, 2012, 04:08 PM
Sorry but none of those scriptures state Jesus is God the Father, you only get that understanding by inference.


Jesus throughout scripture always makes a distinction between the Father and Himself.

I go to my God and your God

Jesus God is the same as our God.

The Father is greater then I

If Jesus tells us the Father is greater then Him should we not listen to Jesus?

Welcome to TOL, I don't think I have posted with you before.

Totton Linnet
September 15th, 2012, 04:15 PM
Matt 19:16-26

16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.


This passage actually is teaching the Truth that Jesus is God ! Notice vs 17 As the young man had addressed Jesus as good, and Jesus responded accordingly, why callest thou me good, for none is good but ONE, that One Being God

Now , notice Jesus did not say, none is good but One and that is my Father, but He said that One, Being God !

Now if Jesus by this is not insinuating that He is God, then the alternative is that He was not good, seeing He just said only ONE, not Two, but ONLY ONE is good.

Now, if Jesus was not good, being that He was not the Only One Good God, then His commanding him, the young ruler, in order to be perfect, that he must go sell all his possessions, then give to the poor, and follow Him; Such an commandment exposed that the young man loved his possessions above God, which was a violation of the very first commandment, now if Jesus was not God, then the young mans refusal to obey and follow Jesus, could not be a proper standard to gauge his Love to God !

For there could not have been nothing amiss about not making such a great sacrifice as that Jesus told him, and then following Him if the One speaking was not the One God, who Only was good !

*
Hallelujah, a post from B57 I can say amen to

Totton Linnet
September 15th, 2012, 04:19 PM
If Jesus died then he is not God for God can not die.

Paul says he is the image of God, not God.

He laid aside His and took it up again no mere man could do that.

I never met a son who was different in nature or attributes to his father...but keypurr begot a rabbit.

SeraphimsCherub
September 15th, 2012, 04:24 PM
I call you attention to The words "son of the most high God".

The term Most high God is used all through scripture. Jesus is called the son of the most high God. That means he is not the almighty, but the son of. It also implies a second and lesser deity. Christ is the express image of God and the father was pleased that it had his fullness.

Just something to ponder over.

Peace

HE'S only less than the FATHER,because HE chose to HUMBLE HIMSELF INFINITELY beyond all comprehension the human mind will ever be able to fathom. When HE,left the glories heaven,and chose to take upon HIMSELF the seed of Abraham so that HE could save not the good,but wretched sinners. Also in a Divine Sense...freeing HIS FATHER from the burden of HIS HOLY LAW being a curse upon HIS very own creation. Just a little something else to ponder over.

Blessings...
SC

keypurr
September 15th, 2012, 04:31 PM
At 63, you should be able to provide a more direct answer than that....come on...

Hi Apple, long time no fight with you, you ben sick? Missed ya.

I get the feeling that beloved would rather not have us on his thread. He seems a little hostile today. I hope I'm wrong.

keypurr
September 15th, 2012, 04:36 PM
He laid aside His and took it up again no mere man could do that.

I never met a son who was different in nature or attributes to his father...but keypurr begot a rabbit.

We both know it was God who raised him. Christ is the image Tott. A copy of the father. Christ is a created God, thats why he could die for us. He is a god but not the almighty, he is the son of the most high God.

keypurr
September 15th, 2012, 04:43 PM
HE'S only less than the FATHER,because HE chose to HUMBLE HIMSELF INFINITELY beyond all comprehension the human mind will ever be able to fathom. When HE,left the glories heaven,and chose to take upon HIMSELF the seed of Abraham so that HE could save not the good,but wretched sinners. Also in a Divine Sense...freeing HIS FATHER from the burden of HIS HOLY LAW being a curse upon HIS very own creation. Just a little something else to ponder over.

Blessings...
SC

I believe he said he was sent. He came to do the will of his God.
I do not find his Holy Law a burden. I think Christ said that he did not come of his own accord, I would have to look it up. John says the law is not a burden.

Peace

SeraphimsCherub
September 15th, 2012, 04:50 PM
I believe he said he was sent. He came to do the will of his God.
I do not find his Holy Law a burden. I think Christ said that he did not come of his own accord, I would have to look it up. John says the law is not a burden.

Peace

To the SPIRIT OF GOD dwelling within John,and because CHRIST fulfilled law for him,and SAVED him. Having freed him from the "curse" of the law...Yeah the law was not a burden. But to the wretched sinner dead in tresspasses and sins,whom CHRIST hasn't "SAVED";but is on his way to hell. The law is a HUGE BURDEN...

Blessings...

Totton Linnet
September 15th, 2012, 04:54 PM
We both know it was God who raised him. Christ is the image Tott. A copy of the father. Christ is a created God, thats why he could die for us. He is a god but not the almighty, he is the son of the most high God.

*
Oh a copy....which of your learned scholars did you get that one from?

How is a son different in nature and attributes to his father?

Wile E. Coyote
September 15th, 2012, 05:28 PM
We both know it was God who raised him. Christ is the image Tott. A copy of the father. Christ is a created God....
Yet God said that there was no God formed before or after Him, Isaiah 43:10.

How many times need you be told this?

Iconodule
September 15th, 2012, 06:36 PM
I've never seen so many half-baked and bizarre heresies in one place. Thanks for keeping it entertaining guys.

M_Wm_Ferguson_MTh
September 15th, 2012, 06:53 PM
Kindly disregard this posting. I hit the wrong button. Looking to see how to delete it.

Apple7
September 15th, 2012, 07:06 PM
Hi Apple, long time no fight with you, you ben sick? Missed ya.

I get the feeling that beloved would rather not have us on his thread. He seems a little hostile today. I hope I'm wrong.


Hey pops.

I see that you are still peddling that same broken bicycle of yours...


http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSJkT3mSnJULl6P-4a6cYiAkiEpWk73z87nPPu836v1sJG6ILBB

keypurr
September 15th, 2012, 07:13 PM
Hey pops.

I see that you are still peddling that same broken bicycle of yours...


http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSJkT3mSnJULl6P-4a6cYiAkiEpWk73z87nPPu836v1sJG6ILBB

Thats right kid, I'm staying in shape. Got to keep my youthful look.

keypurr
September 15th, 2012, 07:20 PM
To the SPIRIT OF GOD dwelling within John,and because CHRIST fulfilled law for him,and SAVED him. Having freed him from the "curse" of the law...Yeah the law was not a burden. But to the wretched sinner dead in tresspasses and sins,whom CHRIST hasn't "SAVED";but is on his way to hell. The law is a HUGE BURDEN...

Blessings...

The law WAS a burden. Not any more. They were trying to earn salvation. You can't, it a gift. Have faith and stop worrying.

Apple7
September 15th, 2012, 07:23 PM
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.


Your sig, pops.

Who gives the 'right to the tree of life'....?

dave3712
September 15th, 2012, 07:25 PM
Matt 19:16-26

16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.


This passage actually is teaching the Truth that Jesus is God ! Notice vs 17 As the young man had addressed Jesus as good, and Jesus responded accordingly, why callest thou me good, for none is good but ONE, that One Being God

Now , notice Jesus did not say, none is good but One and that is my Father, but He said that One, Being God !

Now if Jesus by this is not insinuating that He is God, then the alternative is that He was not good, seeing He just said only ONE, not Two, but ONLY ONE is good.

Now, if Jesus was not good, being that He was not the Only One Good God, then His commanding him, the young ruler, in order to be perfect, that he must go sell all his possessions, then give to the poor, and follow Him; Such an commandment exposed that the young man loved his possessions above God, which was a violation of the very first commandment, now if Jesus was not God, then the young mans refusal to obey and follow Jesus, could not be a proper standard to gauge his Love to God !

For there could not have been nothing amiss about not making such a great sacrifice as that Jesus told him, and then following Him if the One speaking was not the One God, who Only was good !

I like your logic here.

Jesus never said he wasn't good, hence God.
He merely asked the young man "Why."
Why call me that?

keypurr
September 15th, 2012, 07:27 PM
*
Oh a copy....which of your learned scholars did you get that one from?

How is a son different in nature and attributes to his father?

I'm a scholar, not a good one though. I'm still learning.

The Father is uncreated.
The son I see as a creation, for heis the image of his father. They are both spirits. So the Father can not die, but the son can. The son took the form of man so people could see what and who God is. This is the wy God was manifest in man. See, God did not send himself, he sent his son.

Apple7
September 15th, 2012, 07:33 PM
I like your logic here.

Jesus never said he wasn't good, hence God.
He merely asked the young man "Why."
Why call me that?

Now...try asking for his 'logic' for stating that the Archangel Michael is Jesus...

By his reasoning, then Michael is God.

keypurr
September 15th, 2012, 07:33 PM
Yet God said that there was no God formed before or after Him, Isaiah 43:10.

How many times need you be told this?

So you think I should discard the Books of Hebrews and Colossins?

If Jesus Christ is the son of the most high God, what does that make him?
If Christ is the express image of the Father, what does that make him?
If God calls him a god, what does that mke him?

Why did Jesus Christ say that his Father is the only true God?

Apple7
September 15th, 2012, 07:41 PM
Your sig, pops.

Who gives the 'right to the tree of life'....?


Bump for pops...

Apple7
September 15th, 2012, 07:51 PM
What's wrong, pops...don't you understand your very own signature...?
:cigar:

Apple7
September 15th, 2012, 07:59 PM
Look at him run, folks....pops is all bark and no bite...

dave3712
September 15th, 2012, 08:31 PM
I call you attention to The words "son of the most high God".

The term Most high God is used all through scripture. Jesus is called the son of the most high God. That means he is not the almighty, but the son of. It also implies a second and lesser deity. Christ is the express image of God and the father was pleased that it had his fullness.

Just something to ponder over.

Peace

I agree.

When Jesus he "I am the Truth, and the life, and the way" he was telling us explicitly that his Father was the almighty force behind the ever unfolding Reality that surrounds us.

Truth is the ideal which we strive to model our thinking after.
Truth is the image of this Reality in our mind, a spirit we can accept in place of Satan the liar.

keypurr
September 15th, 2012, 09:27 PM
Look at him run, folks....pops is all bark and no bite...

You poor little child Apple7. I was hoping that you would have grown up by now. But I guess I was asking to much. But I will answer for you so that maybe you will learn something.

My Lord gives me the right to the tree of life Apple7. My God has given him the power to pass out the tickets. I guess you did not get yours yet.

You still believe in Santa right? How about the Easter Bunny?

keypurr
September 15th, 2012, 09:31 PM
I agree.

When Jesus he "I am the Truth, and the life, and the way" he was telling us explicitly that his Father was the almighty force behind the ever unfolding Reality that surrounds us.

Truth is the ideal which we strive to model our thinking after.
Truth is the image of this Reality in our mind, a spirit we can accept in place of Satan the liar.

Mar 14:61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
Mar 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

That in in a nutshell friend.

Pierac
September 15th, 2012, 09:59 PM
Well played Beloved57 … you expose this subject!!!

When Trinitarians say "God," they mean the combination of all three persons, Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. If they want to refer to one specific member of the Trinity they will use the corresponding name such as "the Son" etc.

That’s it for the definitions for now, I hope that wasn’t too deep! Okay, one set up verse. Trinitarians will agree that there is only one God who is called Yahweh. The problem is that they include Jesus as a member of Yahweh. But for now, we all agree that the only God is Yahweh.

Isaiah 45:5 – "I am the LORD (YHWH) and there is no other, there is no God besides me."

This is pretty simple. YHWH is the ONLY God. So far, so good.

Exodus 3:15 – "Thus shall you say to the Israelites: The LORD (YHWH), the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob, has sent me to you."

Okay, the God of your fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is the LORD (YHWH).

The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob = YHWH.

Acts 3:13 – "The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, the God of our ancestors, has glorified his servant Jesus."

Does this verse imply that Jesus is the God of Abraham etc.? Of course not! Just read it. The God of Abraham glorified who?

Himself? No! He glorified his servant Jesus. This is not difficult. Jesus is obviously not the God of Abraham etc. He is the God of Abraham’s SERVANT. Who is the God of Abraham? YHWH. And YHWH is who? The ONLY God. So Jesus is not God? Of course not. He is God’s anointed.

Acts 10:38 – "How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power. He went about doing good and healing all oppressed by the devil, for God was with him."

Who anointed Jesus? It doesn’t say the Father anointed Jesus, it says GOD. You can obviously see that Jesus is not the God that anointed him. If I said, "The king anointed Bob," would you think that it meant that Bob is the king? Of course not. Jesus is the servant whom God anointed to do his will. That is the whole purpose of anointing someone, to give them the wisdom and power that they will need in order to serve God. Does it make sense to you that God would anoint God with God? :rolleyes:

I just proved you right… Beloved57 !
:Poly::sherlock:
Paul

keypurr
September 15th, 2012, 10:11 PM
Well played Beloved57 … you expose this subject!!!

When Trinitarians say "God," they mean the combination of all three persons, Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. If they want to refer to one specific member of the Trinity they will use the corresponding name such as "the Son" etc.

That’s it for the definitions for now, I hope that wasn’t too deep! Okay, one set up verse. Trinitarians will agree that there is only one God who is called Yahweh. The problem is that they include Jesus as a member of Yahweh. But for now, we all agree that the only God is Yahweh.

Isaiah 45:5 – "I am the LORD (YHWH) and there is no other, there is no God besides me."

This is pretty simple. YHWH is the ONLY God. So far, so good.

Exodus 3:15 – "Thus shall you say to the Israelites: The LORD (YHWH), the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob, has sent me to you."

Okay, the God of your fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is the LORD (YHWH).

The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob = YHWH.

Acts 3:13 – "The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, the God of our ancestors, has glorified his servant Jesus."

Does this verse imply that Jesus is the God of Abraham etc.? Of course not! Just read it. The God of Abraham glorified who?

Himself? No! He glorified his servant Jesus. This is not difficult. Jesus is obviously not the God of Abraham etc. He is the God of Abraham’s SERVANT. Who is the God of Abraham? YHWH. And YHWH is who? The ONLY God. So Jesus is not God? Of course not. He is God’s anointed.

Acts 10:38 – "How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power. He went about doing good and healing all oppressed by the devil, for God was with him."

Who anointed Jesus? It doesn’t say the Father anointed Jesus, it says GOD. You can obviously see that Jesus is not the God that anointed him. If I said, "The king anointed Bob," would you think that it meant that Bob is the king? Of course not. Jesus is the servant whom God anointed to do his will. That is the whole purpose of anointing someone, to give them the wisdom and power that they will need in order to serve God. Does it make sense to you that God would anoint God with God? :rolleyes:

I just proved you right… Beloved57 !
:Poly::sherlock:
Paul

I hope he sees it Paul.

The Apostle Paul says we have one God and one Lord. I believe that.

Totton Linnet
September 16th, 2012, 03:49 AM
I'm a scholar, not a good one though. I'm still learning.

The Father is uncreated.
The son I see as a creation, for heis the image of his father. They are both spirits. So the Father can not die, but the son can. The son took the form of man so people could see what and who God is. This is the wy God was manifest in man. See, God did not send himself, he sent his son.

*
Ah I fear you is doting keeps, what sense do you make?...you say

"the son took the form of man so people could see what and who God is."

Now what could THAT be double dutch for I wonder. "He took the form" so at last you admit His pre-existence, what form then did He have before He took the form of man?

Paul say He was in the form of God.

How by becoming man does He show God? His enemies [and unitarians] dispute that He was God and they went so far as to say He was of the devil [you only say we who believe in His deity are of the devil] so His deity was not revealed to everyone.

"Flesh and blood hath not revealed this unto you but My Father in heaven"

So you will agree from this that His deity was not revealed by becoming a man but veiled [oh learned keeps]

When God revealed to Peter Jesu's Sonship He was revealing Christ's deity...for YOU were not conceived in the womb of a virgin by the Holy Spirit were you? no, nor was any man but Christ was.

SeraphimsCherub
September 16th, 2012, 04:20 AM
The law WAS a burden. Not any more. They were trying to earn salvation. You can't, it a gift. Have faith and stop worrying.

Amen my brother...we are brother's in Christ Jesus our Lord,and we have a Love for GOD sewn into our heart's by the Holy Spirit,and that's all that truly matters.

Blessings...
SC

Pneuma
September 16th, 2012, 07:53 AM
pn



Uh no we do not ! If you want to discuss that, we need to discuss how you believe one is saved, but not here in this thread !

Nope don't want to go there. People are always saying you cannot be saved,a child of God, a christian unless you believe as I do. It is all crap. All it does is divide the body of Christ.

Apple7
September 16th, 2012, 07:54 AM
My Lord gives me the right to the tree of life Apple7. My God has given him the power to pass out the tickets.


Take a good look, pops...Jesus has complete authority over the Tree of Life...He did not ask permission....Jesus, as God, has always had the authority...


• The Book of Revelation describes to us the Tree of Life and the Water of Life, as found in the Paradise of God
• The first mention of the Tree of Life comes from Jesus Christ (Rev 2.7)
• Jesus declares that He, alone, gives the right to eat of the Tree of Life in the Paradise of God, via the dative, singular, masculine, personal pronoun, “autos”, and the first-person singular “didomi”, rendered as “give” or “bestow a gift”
• Jesus also informs John that He is the giver of the Water of Life (Rev 21.6 – 7)
• Jesus declares that He, alone, gives the right to drink from the Water of Life in the Paradise of God, via the first-person, nominative, singular, personal pronoun, “ego”; and, once again, the text uses the first-person singular “didomi”, rendered as “give” or “bestow a gift”
• In these verses, “Theos” is in the nominative case, indicating that Jesus is the subject of the verb “esomai” establishing Him as God
• Further, observe that Jesus establishes that His deity is directly interchangeable with the Father, making the ones overcoming, the sons to Him
• In the final chapter of Revelation, Jesus’ angel shows John that the Tree of Life is part of the Water of Life, in the Paradise of God (Rev 22.1 – 4)
• Revelation chapter 22 declares that both the Water of Life and the Tree of Life are intertwined with one another, and emanate from the singular throne of God and the Lamb
• Jesus clearly establishes that He, alone, is responsible for providing both drink and food in Paradise
• In Revelation 7.13 – 17, we are informed that the redeemed, the victorious, the Elect, which are in Paradise, before the singular Throne of Jesus, of God, are removed from hunger, from thirst, and from heat by Jesus Christ


Simply more scriptural ignorance on your part.

Now....do your thing...and ignore what scripture says...finish-out your days in ignorance...

Pneuma
September 16th, 2012, 07:55 AM
Anyone can choose to use what ever verses they desire in want to convince another of what they believe. The greater POWER i choose to believe JESUS CHRIST IS{THE MOST HIGH GOD,BOTH IN THE SPIRITUAL REALM,AND THE PHYSICAL} to be. The greater my faith will be in HIM and what HE CAN DO. He who has the POWER to lay down HIS life,and the POWER to RAISE it back up agian. IS GOD. Demons who are a far greater power than you,or I,believe in HIM,and TREMBLE. So we might want to think long and hard about who we choose to believe JESUS CHRIST really is. The MAN put ETERNITY on HIS WORDS,and said..."HEAVEN,AND EARTH SHALL PASS AWAY BUT MY WORDS ABIDETH FOREVER,AND SHALL NEVER PASS AWAY!


You are free to believe that. I believe Jesus Christ is God, but NOT God the Father. Jesus' own words tell us he is NOT the Father. I simply believe Jesus knew who He was.

Pneuma
September 16th, 2012, 07:57 AM
Welcome to TOL, I don't think I have posted with you before.

Thanks for the welcome keypurr. we will get to know each other as time goes by. Good to meet you.

Pneuma
September 16th, 2012, 08:02 AM
He laid aside His and took it up again no mere man could do that.

I never met a son who was different in nature or attributes to his father...but keypurr begot a rabbit.

Can't speak for others but I have never said Jesus was just a man.

God never said let me make man in my image and likeness.
God said let us make man in our image and likeness.

At least two disticnt personalities are in that statement.


and Adam was a son of God.

Pneuma
September 16th, 2012, 08:15 AM
Yet God said that there was no God formed before or after Him, Isaiah 43:10.

How many times need you be told this?


hmmmm no God FORMED before or after Him. does this not tell us the Lord was saying He was the first formed of the Father, the captian of our salvation.

Pneuma
September 16th, 2012, 08:22 AM
Well played Beloved57 … you expose this subject!!!

When Trinitarians say "God," they mean the combination of all three persons, Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. If they want to refer to one specific member of the Trinity they will use the corresponding name such as "the Son" etc.

That’s it for the definitions for now, I hope that wasn’t too deep! Okay, one set up verse. Trinitarians will agree that there is only one God who is called Yahweh. The problem is that they include Jesus as a member of Yahweh. But for now, we all agree that the only God is Yahweh.

Isaiah 45:5 – "I am the LORD (YHWH) and there is no other, there is no God besides me."

This is pretty simple. YHWH is the ONLY God. So far, so good.

Exodus 3:15 – "Thus shall you say to the Israelites: The LORD (YHWH), the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob, has sent me to you."

Okay, the God of your fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is the LORD (YHWH).

The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob = YHWH.

Acts 3:13 – "The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, the God of our ancestors, has glorified his servant Jesus."

Does this verse imply that Jesus is the God of Abraham etc.? Of course not! Just read it. The God of Abraham glorified who?

Himself? No! He glorified his servant Jesus. This is not difficult. Jesus is obviously not the God of Abraham etc. He is the God of Abraham’s SERVANT. Who is the God of Abraham? YHWH. And YHWH is who? The ONLY God. So Jesus is not God? Of course not. He is God’s anointed.

Acts 10:38 – "How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power. He went about doing good and healing all oppressed by the devil, for God was with him."

Who anointed Jesus? It doesn’t say the Father anointed Jesus, it says GOD. You can obviously see that Jesus is not the God that anointed him. If I said, "The king anointed Bob," would you think that it meant that Bob is the king? Of course not. Jesus is the servant whom God anointed to do his will. That is the whole purpose of anointing someone, to give them the wisdom and power that they will need in order to serve God. Does it make sense to you that God would anoint God with God? :rolleyes:

I just proved you right… Beloved57 !
:Poly::sherlock:
Paul


Well said:thumb: but will they be able to see it.

SeraphimsCherub
September 16th, 2012, 09:09 AM
You are free to believe that. I believe Jesus Christ is God, but NOT God the Father. Jesus' own words tell us he is NOT the Father. I simply believe Jesus knew who He was.

Amen brother...I believe that too. The SON is the Eternal Word of YHWH The Father become Flesh by the Inception of Their/His Holy Spirit. Kind of like...They are He,and HE IS THE ONLY ONE TRUE,AND LIVING GOD OVER ALL...FATHER~SON~&~HOLY SPIRIT. That's the best i can come up with when it comes to Trinity Logic. Incomprehensiable,and thus it should be when it comes to trying to understand the BEING,and ESSENSE OF ALMIGHTY GOD. Nevertheless it is fun trying,and I'm pretty sure that GOD chuckles,and get's a little kick out our Trinity equations. Lol...

Pneuma
September 16th, 2012, 09:16 AM
Amen brother...I believe that too. The SON is the Eternal Word of YHWH The Father become Flesh by the Inception of Their/His Holy Spirit. Kind of like...They are He,and HE IS THE ONLY ONE TRUE,AND LIVING GOD OVER ALL...FATHER~SON~&~HOLY SPIRIT. That's the best i can come up with when it comes to Trinity Logic. Incomprehensiable,and thus it should be when it comes to trying to understand the BEING,and ESSENSE OF ALMIGHTY GOD. Nevertheless it is fun trying,and I'm pretty sure that GOD chuckles,and get's a little kick out our Trinity equations. Lol...


You misunderstood me SC, I don't believe in a trinity. I believe that their is God the Father the one true God and God the Son both disticnt from each other but of one purpose.


our God is ONE, not 3.

Iconodule
September 16th, 2012, 09:19 AM
[COLOR="Blue"]
[COLOR="Blue"]When Trinitarians say "God," they mean the combination of all three persons, Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Nope.

We refer to the Trinity as God and also the individual hypostases as God. So yes, we do refer to each hypostasis as God: "God the Father," "God the Son," "God the Holy Spirit." How can we refer to each hypostasis as God, and still worship one God? Because they have a single undivided essence.

When we refer to the whole Trinity as God we are not referring to simply a "combination," but their common essence. Hence the Creed says that Jesus Christ is "of one essence (homoousios) with the Father."

We sing, at the Liturgy, "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, the Trinity one in essence and undivided."

Please take time to study the classic expositions of Trinitarian doctrine. Here, for instance, is Saint Gregory the Theologian's classic exposition "On the Son" : http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf207.iii.xv.html


Trinitarians will agree that there is only one God who is called Yahweh. The problem is that they include Jesus as a member of Yahweh.

Jesus is Yahweh. He says so himself:

"Before Abraham was, I AM." (John 8: 58)

What does "Yahweh" mean? "I AM."


Acts 3:13 – "The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, the God of our ancestors, has glorified his servant Jesus."

Does this verse imply that Jesus is the God of Abraham etc.? Of course not! Just read it. The God of Abraham glorified who?

[COLOR="blue"] Himself? No! He glorified his servant Jesus. [B]

God the Father glorifies God the Son. They are distinct hypostases. So God can indeed glorify His Son and indeed Himself, as they are united in essence.

Your arguments stem from a basic misunderstanding of Christian Trinitarian doctrine. Back to the drawing board with you.

I close with Matthew 22: 41-45:


41While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David. 43He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,

44The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?

45If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?

SeraphimsCherub
September 16th, 2012, 09:39 AM
JEHOVAH YHWH GOD IS GOD THE FATHER~GOD THE SON~&~GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT~&~GOD THE FATHER~GOD THE SON~&~GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT ARE JEHOVAH YHWH GOD.

SeraphimsCherub
September 16th, 2012, 09:49 AM
You misunderstood me SC, I don't believe in a trinity. I believe that their is God the Father the one true God and God the Son both disticnt from each other but of one purpose.


our God is ONE, not 3.

It's all good bro...if you believe there's no Trinity. I'm definitely not going to loose any sleep over it,and neither should you if i believe there is. We both Love JESUS,and Believe HE'S GOD,and that's all that truly matters.


Blessings...
SC

Pneuma
September 16th, 2012, 09:58 AM
It's all good bro...if you believe there's no Trinity. I'm definitely not going to loose any sleep over it,and neither should you if i believe there is. We both Love JESUS,and Believe HE'S GOD,and that's all that truly matters.


Blessings...
SC


:thumb:

Apple7
September 16th, 2012, 10:58 AM
You misunderstood me SC, I don't believe in a trinity. I believe that their is God the Father the one true God and God the Son both disticnt from each other but of one purpose.


our God is ONE, not 3.

The Trinity is not three.

No wonder you think that you reject it...you don't even know what it is!

Typical uni....

Pneuma
September 16th, 2012, 11:32 AM
The Trinity is not three.

No wonder you think that you reject it...you don't even know what it is!

Typical uni....

1+1+1=3 not 1

God the Father + God the Son + God the Holy Spirit = 3 Gods not 1 God


And no you cannot use multiplication because Jesus always make a disticntion between Himself and the Father and also between Himself and the Holy Spirit.

No matter how you slice it you talk about 3 Gods but call those 3 Gods 1.

If the Holy Spirit is a God and Jesus says He will send ANOTHER it obviously is ANOTHER.

Apple7
September 16th, 2012, 11:51 AM
1+1+1=3 not 1

God the Father + God the Son + God the Holy Spirit = 3 Gods not 1 God


Your math is wrong.

refute this...

1x1x1 = 1




And no you cannot use multiplication because Jesus always make a disticntion between Himself and the Father and also between Himself and the Holy Spirit.

Each is the one God...so, yes...1x1x1 =1





No matter how you slice it you talk about 3 Gods but call those 3 Gods 1.

Show us scripture that states that there are three Gods.

After all, this is what you think the Trinity is....good luck on that defending that one...







If the Holy Spirit is a God and Jesus says He will send ANOTHER it obviously is ANOTHER.

Scripture?

Pneuma
September 16th, 2012, 12:13 PM
Your math is wrong.

refute this...

1x1x1 = 1





Each is the one God...so, yes...1x1x1 =1






Show us scripture that states that there are three Gods.

After all, this is what you think the Trinity is....good luck on that defending that one...








Scripture?




1+1+1=3

And you say that math is wrong. :eek:




Already explain you cannot use multiplication because Jesus said He would send ANOTHER.

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Now if the Holy Spirit is God and Jesus tells us ANOTHER shell be sent it is someone else besides Himself and if Jesus is God then the Holy spirit cannot be God. Thus showing the trinity is a man made doctrine.

Apple7
September 16th, 2012, 12:26 PM
1+1+1=3

And you say that math is wrong. :eek:


Your math is wrong.

You have demonstrated that you don't know what the Trinity is.

You are fighting a straw-man...





Already explain you cannot use multiplication because Jesus said He would send ANOTHER.

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Now if the Holy Spirit is God and Jesus tells us ANOTHER shell be sent it is someone else besides Himself and if Jesus is God then the Holy spirit cannot be God. Thus showing the trinity is a man made doctrine




Another what?

Another God?

lol....no, brother...

Show us the scripture in context....or...is this how your position works - by taking things out of context and ignoring the original languages...


.

SeraphimsCherub
September 16th, 2012, 12:49 PM
1+1+1=3

And you say that math is wrong. :eek:




Already explain you cannot use multiplication because Jesus said He would send ANOTHER.

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Now if the Holy Spirit is God and Jesus tells us ANOTHER shell be sent it is someone else besides Himself and if Jesus is God then the Holy spirit cannot be God. Thus showing the trinity is a man made doctrine.

Well the HOLY SPIRIT is obviously GOD too. Becuase JESUS HIMSELF tells us,that blasphemy against THE HOLY SPIRIT is the only unforgivable sin. And that all manner of blasphemies against HIMSELF{JESUS} can be forgiven;but whosoever shall commit blasphemy against THE HOLY SPIRIT never hath forgiveness in this life,and that one which is to come here after.

Pneuma
September 16th, 2012, 01:03 PM
Your math is wrong.

You have demonstrated that you don't know what the Trinity is.

You are fighting a straw-man...






Another what?

Another God?

lol....no, brother...

Show us the scripture in context....or...is this how your position works - by taking things out of context and ignoring the original languages...


.


Read the scriptures yourself, I am not doing you leg work for you.

Jn.14
Jn.15
Jn.16

ANOTHER is the comforter = the Holy Ghost/Spirit

Now according to the Trinitarian belief the Holy Spirit is the one true God, Jesus Christ is the one true God and the Father is the one true God.

So who is this ANOTHER? According to Trinitarians it has to be the ONE true God.

So how can the one true God be Jesus because Jesus said it was ANOTHER?

Jesus also says that this comforter will not speak of himself but will glorify Jesus.

Yet the Trinitarian belief is that the comforter and Jesus and the Father are all ONE God.

So how can the comforter NOT speak of himself, yet glorify Jesus?

Would not speaking of himself glorify Jesus if they are indeed ONE God?

Pneuma
September 16th, 2012, 01:05 PM
Well the HOLY SPIRIT is obviously GOD too. Becuase JESUS HIMSELF tells us,that blasphemy against THE HOLY SPIRIT is the only unforgivable sin. And that all manner of blasphemies against HIMSELF{JESUS} can be forgiven;but whosoever shall commit blasphemy against THE HOLY SPIRIT never hath forgiveness in this life,and that one which is to come here after.

So if Jesus is the one true God why is blasphemy against him forgiven, yet not forgiven when agaist the Holy Spirit?

If they are the same God it should carry the same sentence.

Apple7
September 16th, 2012, 01:16 PM
Read the scriptures yourself, I am not doing you leg work for you.

Jn.14
Jn.15
Jn.16

ANOTHER is the comforter = the Holy Ghost/Spirit

Now according to the Trinitarian belief the Holy Spirit is the one true God, Jesus Christ is the one true God and the Father is the one true God.

So who is this ANOTHER? According to Trinitarians it has to be the ONE true God.

So how can the one true God be Jesus because Jesus said it was ANOTHER?

Jesus also says that this comforter will not speak of himself but will glorify Jesus.

Yet the Trinitarian belief is that the comforter and Jesus and the Father are all ONE God.

So how can the comforter NOT speak of himself, yet glorify Jesus?

Would not speaking of himself glorify Jesus if they are indeed ONE God?



Little wonder that you don’t want to show the Greek, brother.

Again…another what?

The Greek states another paraklēton….not another Theos!

Another uni drop-dead ignorant of scripture…

SeraphimsCherub
September 16th, 2012, 01:23 PM
Because THE HOLY SPIRIT IS HIS SPIRIT. "And HE shall not speak of another;but shall glorify ME". Why?? Because HE IS MY{JESUS} SPIRIT. Plus the realm of HIS SPIRIT is a HIGHER Existance than the physical Created realm of HIS Flesh. So to sin against HIS SPIRIT,is a far greater,and Eternal insult in HIS EYE'S than to sin against HIS Flesh.

Pneuma
September 16th, 2012, 01:42 PM
John 8:17-18
17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.

If Jesus and the Father are ONE being then why does it say the testimony of two men is true?

Jesus goes on to say.

18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

Thus we have a witness of TWO.




John 17:3
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.


1 Timothy 2:5
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;



Hebrews 3:1-2


Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; 2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.

John 10:29
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

John 14:28
28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.


John 20:17
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
.

1 Corinthians 8:5-6
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.


Now we know that the Father is NOT the Son and only the FATHER is called the ONE GOD.


Ephesians 3:14
14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,

Pneuma
September 16th, 2012, 01:47 PM
Little wonder that you don’t want to show the Greek, brother.

Again…another what?

The Greek states another paraklēton….not another Theos!

Another uni drop-dead ignorant of scripture…

Silly you just undid your whole belief.

The Holy Ghost/Spirit according to you guys is GOD.

Now you are saying He/Holy Spirit is NOT God but ANOTHER.

Pneuma
September 16th, 2012, 01:52 PM
Because THE HOLY SPIRIT IS HIS SPIRIT. "And HE shall not speak of another;but shall glorify ME". Why?? Because HE IS MY{JESUS} SPIRIT. Plus the realm of HIS SPIRIT is a HIGHER Existance than the physical Created realm of HIS Flesh. So to sin against HIS SPIRIT,is a far greater,and Eternal insult in HIS EYE'S than to sin against HIS Flesh.

is that not the same as saying Jesus is God but he was not God while in the flesh.

SeraphimsCherub
September 16th, 2012, 01:53 PM
For GOD ordained within HIMSELF that HIS MANHOOD would FOREVER be in PERFECT SUBJECTION,AND OBEDIANCE TO THE WILL OF HIS GODHOOD. For the GLORY of HIS MANHOOD,IS THAT HE EVER LIVETH IN PERFECT OBEDIANCE,AND ABSOLUTE ONENESS TO THE LAW,AND WILL OF HIS GODHOOD. GLORY BE TO GOD!!!

Revelations...
Blessings...
SC

Pneuma
September 16th, 2012, 01:55 PM
For GOD ordained within HIMSELF that HIS MANHOOD would FOREVER be in PERFECT SUBJECTION,AND OBEDIANCE TO THE WILL OF HIS GODHOOD. For the GLORY of HIS MANHOOD,IS THAT HE EVER LIVETH IN PERFECT OBEDIANCE,AND ABSOLUTE ONENESS TO THE LAW,AND WILL OF HIS GODHOOD. GLORY BE TO GOD!!!

Revelations...
Blessings...
SC

I understand that is what you believe but where is the scripture that says God ordained within Himself that his manhood would forever be subject to his Godhood.

Apple7
September 16th, 2012, 01:59 PM
John 8:17-18
17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.

If Jesus and the Father are ONE being then why does it say the testimony of two men is true?

Jesus goes on to say.

18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

Thus we have a witness of TWO.




John 17:3
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.


1 Timothy 2:5
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;



Hebrews 3:1-2


Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; 2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.

John 10:29
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

John 14:28
28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.


John 20:17
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
.

1 Corinthians 8:5-6
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.


Now we know that the Father is NOT the Son and only the FATHER is called the ONE GOD.

Ephesians 3:14
14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,


Again....you demonstrate your ignorance of the Trinity.

The Trinity already mandates that the Father is not the Son is not the Spirit.

However, each is the One God.

Time that you took a look at my avatar.


Further, let's review your ignorance of Greek, as thus...


Of the seventy times in which the demonstrative pronoun ουτος has a personal referent in the Gospel of John and his Epistles, the Father is never the referent! This fact, along with proximity, significantly increases the likelihood that Jesus Christ is the antecedent in the case of 1 John 5.20, as thus…


οιδαμεν δε οτι ο υιος του θεου ηκει και δεδωκεν ημιν διανοιαν ινα γινωσκομεν τον αληθινον και εσμεν εν τω αληθινω εν τω υιω αυτου ιησου χριστω ουτος εστιν ο αληθινος θεος και ζωη αιωνιος

oidamen de hoti ho huios tou theou hēkei kai dedōken hēmin dianoian hina ginōskōmen ton alēthinon kai esmen en tō huiō autou Iēsou Christō houtos estin ho alēthinos theos kai zōē aiōnios

And we know that the Son of God has come, and He has given to us an understanding that we may know the true One, and we are in the true One, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and the life eternal. (1 John 5.20)




Regarding your centerpiece, John 17.3, if you were even remotely familiar with Greek, then you would already be cognizant that there are absolutely no grammatical reasons at all for denying that αληθινον θεον refers to Jesus Christ.

This can be deduced from a study of the article with multiple substantives connected via kai.


αυτη δε εστιν η αιωνιος ζωη ινα γινωσκωσιν σε τον μονον αληθινον θεον και ον απεστειλας ιησουν χριστον

hautē de estin hē aiōnios zōē hina ginōskōsin se ton monon alēthinon theon kai hon apesteilas Iēsoun christon

And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent. (John 17.3)


Thus…it is only out of your sheer ignorance of NT Greek that you have chosen to follow a cult which denies that Jesus is the one true God.


You have nothing.

Pneuma
September 16th, 2012, 02:00 PM
This Trinitarian doctrine actually belittles the sacrifice God gave for us, for which is the greater sacrifice, to God? That of Himself or that of His son?

Apple7
September 16th, 2012, 02:05 PM
Silly you just undid your whole belief.

The Holy Ghost/Spirit according to you guys is GOD.

Now you are saying He/Holy Spirit is NOT God but ANOTHER.


Again...'another' what?

Show us in the Greek where it ever says another Theos....

:rotfl:

Apple7
September 16th, 2012, 02:07 PM
This Trinitarian doctrine actually belittles the sacrifice God gave for us, for which is the greater sacrifice, to God? That of Himself or that of His son?


As we can see, the prerequisite for being a 'uni' is scriptural ignorance.

Tambora
September 16th, 2012, 02:07 PM
Jesus is God !

Yes, I know.
HALLELUJAH!

Apple7
September 16th, 2012, 02:11 PM
1 Timothy 2:5
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;





Who is God?

Who is Savior?



Titus 2.13

προσδεχομενοι την μακαριαν ελπιδα και επιφανειαν της δοξης του μεγαλου θεου και σωτηρος ημων χριστου ιησου

prosdechomenoi tēn makarian elpida kai epiphaneian tēs doxēs tou megalou theou kai sōtēros hēmōn christou iēsou

Looking for the blessed hope and appearance of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,





2 Peter 1.1

σιμων πετρος δουλος και αποστολος ιησου χριστου τοις ισοτιμον ημιν λαχουσιν πιστιν εν δικαιοσυνη του θεου ημων και σωτηρος ιησου χριστου

simōn petros doulos kai apostolos iēsou christou tois isotimon hēmin lachousin pisten en dikaiosunē tou theou hēmōn kai sōtēros iēsou christou

Simon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those equally precious with us, having obtained faith in the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:




Greek grammar mandates that Jesus is both God and Savior in the above verses.


Jesus is the God-man.

Jesus is the Savior-man.


Thus, when we come to your example, we can easily see that God and Savior both apply to Jesus, as well.



1 Tim 2.3 - 5

For this is good and acceptable before God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to a full knowledge of Truth. For God is one, also there is one Mediator of God and of men, the Man Christ Jesus,


Jesus is the God-man.

Jesus is the Savior-man.



Further, ‘Truth’ also applies to Jesus.

Tambora
September 16th, 2012, 02:11 PM
This Trinitarian doctrine actually belittles the sacrifice God gave for us,
No, it does not.
There is none greater than God.

SeraphimsCherub
September 16th, 2012, 02:20 PM
I understand that is what you believe but where is the scripture that says God ordained within Himself that his manhood would forever be subject to his Godhood.

Joh_5:19 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father doing: for what things soever he doeth, these the Son also doeth in like manner.
Joh_5:30 I can of myself do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is righteous; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Joh 10:30 I and the Father are one.

Pneuma
September 16th, 2012, 02:25 PM
Again....you demonstrate your ignorance of the Trinity.

The Trinity already mandates that the Father is not the Son is not the Spirit.

However, each is the One God.

That just a lot of double speak




Further, let's review your ignorance of Greek, as thus...



Of the seventy times in which the demonstrative pronoun ουτος has a personal referent in the Gospel of John and his Epistles, the Father is never the referent! This fact, along with proximity, significantly increases the likelihood that Jesus Christ is the antecedent in the case of 1 John 5.20, as thus…


οιδαμεν δε οτι ο υιος του θεου ηκει και δεδωκεν ημιν διανοιαν ινα γινωσκομεν τον αληθινον και εσμεν εν τω αληθινω εν τω υιω αυτου ιησου χριστω ουτος εστιν ο αληθινος θεος και ζωη αιωνιος

oidamen de hoti ho huios tou theou hēkei kai dedōken hēmin dianoian hina ginōskōmen ton alēthinon kai esmen en tō huiō autou Iēsou Christō houtos estin ho alēthinos theos kai zōē aiōnios

And we know that the Son of God has come, and He has given to us an understanding that we may know the true One, and we are in the true One, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and the life eternal. (1 John 5.20)







Regarding your centerpiece, John 17.3, if you were even remotely familiar with Greek, then you would already be cognizant that there are absolutely no grammatical reasons at all for denying that αληθινον θεον refers to Jesus Christ.

This can be deduced from a study of the article with multiple substantives connected via kai.


αυτη δε εστιν η αιωνιος ζωη ινα γινωσκωσιν σε τον μονον αληθινον θεον και ον απεστειλας ιησουν χριστον

hautē de estin hē aiōnios zōē hina ginōskōsin se ton monon alēthinon theon kai hon apesteilas Iēsoun christon

And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent. (John 17.3)


Thus…it is only out of your sheer ignorance of NT Greek that you have chosen to follow a cult which denies that Jesus is the one true God.


You have nothing.


Except for the word AND the only true God AND Jesus Christ.


But I noticed you did not comment on my first scripture about the TWO.

Pneuma
September 16th, 2012, 02:33 PM
Again...'another' what?

Show us in the Greek where it ever says another Theos....

:rotfl:

You miss the point Apple.

You are the one who say the Holy Ghost/Spirit is God.

ANOTHER comforter (which is the holy spirit) shows this is NOT true as the Holy Spirit is NOT refered to a Theos.

Pneuma
September 16th, 2012, 02:34 PM
As we can see, the prerequisite for being a 'uni' is scriptural ignorance.

Not into playing those type of games apple.

Pneuma
September 16th, 2012, 02:37 PM
Who is God?

Who is Savior?



Titus 2.13

προσδεχομενοι την μακαριαν ελπιδα και επιφανειαν της δοξης του μεγαλου θεου και σωτηρος ημων χριστου ιησου

prosdechomenoi tēn makarian elpida kai epiphaneian tēs doxēs tou megalou theou kai sōtēros hēmōn christou iēsou

Looking for the blessed hope and appearance of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,





2 Peter 1.1

σιμων πετρος δουλος και αποστολος ιησου χριστου τοις ισοτιμον ημιν λαχουσιν πιστιν εν δικαιοσυνη του θεου ημων και σωτηρος ιησου χριστου

simōn petros doulos kai apostolos iēsou christou tois isotimon hēmin lachousin pisten en dikaiosunē tou theou hēmōn kai sōtēros iēsou christou

Simon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those equally precious with us, having obtained faith in the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:




Greek grammar mandates that Jesus is both God and Savior in the above verses.


Jesus is the God-man.

Jesus is the Savior-man.


Thus, when we come to your example, we can easily see that God and Savior both apply to Jesus, as well.



1 Tim 2.3 - 5

For this is good and acceptable before God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to a full knowledge of Truth. For God is one, also there is one Mediator of God and of men, the Man Christ Jesus,


Jesus is the God-man.

Jesus is the Savior-man.



Further, ‘Truth’ also applies to Jesus.



The one true God the Father is the saviour of all, but sent forth His son Jesus Christ to enact that salvation. We also are to be saviours as members of His body. that does NOT make us the ONE true God.

Pneuma
September 16th, 2012, 02:38 PM
Joh_5:19 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father doing: for what things soever he doeth, these the Son also doeth in like manner.
Joh_5:30 I can of myself do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is righteous; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Joh 10:30 I and the Father are one.

Yes and we are to be one with the Father and Jesus Christ also. Does that make us the one true God?

Apple7
September 16th, 2012, 02:43 PM
Except for the word AND the only true God AND Jesus Christ.

What Greek word would that be....and show us grammatically....not that you can...





But I noticed you did not comment on my first scripture about the TWO.


And when the Comforter comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of Truth who proceeds from the Father, that One will witness concerning Me. John 15.26

Apple7
September 16th, 2012, 02:46 PM
You miss the point Apple.

You are the one who say the Holy Ghost/Spirit is God.

ANOTHER comforter (which is the holy spirit) shows this is NOT true as the Holy Spirit is NOT refered to a Theos.

We have shown you otherwise...

SeraphimsCherub
September 16th, 2012, 02:46 PM
Yes and we are to be one with the Father and Jesus Christ also. Does that make us the one true God?

No...just individual parts of HIS ONE TRUE BODY. We are sons of the FATHER~IN~&~THROUGH "THE SON"~BY HIS HOLY SPIRIT~Living within us.

Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God sent forth the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father.


Blessings...
SC

Apple7
September 16th, 2012, 02:49 PM
The one true God the Father is the saviour of all, but sent forth His son Jesus Christ to enact that salvation. We also are to be saviours as members of His body. that does NOT make us the ONE true God.

Grammatically, the NT tells us that Jesus is the one true God.

Refute the Greek if you disagree.

You uni's think that you can ignore the original languages and the original grammar and make up your own doctrine which fits your world-view.

Nope!

Pneuma
September 16th, 2012, 02:53 PM
We have shown you otherwise...

You have shown nothing but a failure to prove that the comforter/Holy Spirit is God. For it cannot be God and called ANOTHER.

Pneuma
September 16th, 2012, 02:56 PM
No...just individual parts of HIS ONE TRUE BODY. We are sons of the FATHER~IN~&~THROUGH "THE SON"~BY HIS HOLY SPIRIT~Living within us.

Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God sent forth the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father.


Blessings...
SC

And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

SeraphimsCherub
September 16th, 2012, 02:58 PM
And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

2Pe 1:4 whereby he hath granted unto us his precious and exceeding great promises; that through these ye may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in that world by lust.

Pneuma
September 16th, 2012, 02:59 PM
Grammatically, the NT tells us that Jesus is the one true God.

Refute the Greek if you disagree.

You uni's think that you can ignore the original languages and the original grammar and make up your own doctrine which fits your world-view.

Nope!

Ya and I am just soppose to take your word for it.

Pneuma
September 16th, 2012, 03:01 PM
2Pe 1:4 whereby he hath granted unto us his precious and exceeding great promises; that through these ye may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in that world by lust.

I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one;

SeraphimsCherub
September 16th, 2012, 03:05 PM
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Pneuma
September 16th, 2012, 03:08 PM
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

exactly, is the body of Christ any less then the head?

keypurr
September 16th, 2012, 03:11 PM
*
Ah I fear you is doting keeps, what sense do you make?...you say

"the son took the form of man so people could see what and who God is."

Now what could THAT be double dutch for I wonder. "He took the form" so at last you admit His pre-existence, what form then did He have before He took the form of man?

Christ is a spirit Tott, are you starting to understand what I have been saying for many months? God created everything through Christ. Christ is God's first creation, he is a created god.


Paul say He was in the form of God.

Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:


How by becoming man does He show God? His enemies [and unitarians] dispute that He was God and they went so far as to say He was of the devil [you only say we who believe in His deity are of the devil] so His deity was not revealed to everyone.

His deity come from his Father, he was given it.

Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;



"Flesh and blood hath not revealed this unto you but My Father in heaven"

So you will agree from this that His deity was not revealed by becoming a man but veiled [oh learned keeps]

When God revealed to Peter Jesu's Sonship He was revealing Christ's deity...for YOU were not conceived in the womb of a virgin by the Holy Spirit were you? no, nor was any man but Christ was.

I think God has enlighten me as to the Deity of his Christ. But I see Christ in a different light than you Tott. Christ is not the most high God, his Father is. Christ is the express image of God, deity included. But he is still a created god. Consider that the true God can not die, but a created deity can. Jesus was the son of God both in the flesh and in the spirit. When Jesus was anointed, he was given the power. (Acts 10:38) Christ was in Jesus Tott. He was a form of God. But he is not the true God.

Mar_5:7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.

Luk_8:28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not.

Jesus tells you that also:

Joh_17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Now if your believe that there is only one true God, your right. However, God himself calls Christ a god.

Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Tott, bury your hatchet in a tree and come to the table and see what the Lord might have for you. Who knows, you just might find something you like.

Peace

keypurr
September 16th, 2012, 03:13 PM
Amen my brother...we are brother's in Christ Jesus our Lord,and we have a Love for GOD sewn into our heart's by the Holy Spirit,and that's all that truly matters.

Blessings...
SC

AMEN, even if we do not agree on everything, we share our God and his Christ.

keypurr
September 16th, 2012, 03:18 PM
Take a good look, pops...Jesus has complete authority over the Tree of Life...He did not ask permission....Jesus, as God, has always had the authority...


• The Book of Revelation describes to us the Tree of Life and the Water of Life, as found in the Paradise of God
• The first mention of the Tree of Life comes from Jesus Christ (Rev 2.7)
• Jesus declares that He, alone, gives the right to eat of the Tree of Life in the Paradise of God, via the dative, singular, masculine, personal pronoun, “autos”, and the first-person singular “didomi”, rendered as “give” or “bestow a gift”
• Jesus also informs John that He is the giver of the Water of Life (Rev 21.6 – 7)
• Jesus declares that He, alone, gives the right to drink from the Water of Life in the Paradise of God, via the first-person, nominative, singular, personal pronoun, “ego”; and, once again, the text uses the first-person singular “didomi”, rendered as “give” or “bestow a gift”
• In these verses, “Theos” is in the nominative case, indicating that Jesus is the subject of the verb “esomai” establishing Him as God
• Further, observe that Jesus establishes that His deity is directly interchangeable with the Father, making the ones overcoming, the sons to Him
• In the final chapter of Revelation, Jesus’ angel shows John that the Tree of Life is part of the Water of Life, in the Paradise of God (Rev 22.1 – 4)
• Revelation chapter 22 declares that both the Water of Life and the Tree of Life are intertwined with one another, and emanate from the singular throne of God and the Lamb
• Jesus clearly establishes that He, alone, is responsible for providing both drink and food in Paradise
• In Revelation 7.13 – 17, we are informed that the redeemed, the victorious, the Elect, which are in Paradise, before the singular Throne of Jesus, of God, are removed from hunger, from thirst, and from heat by Jesus Christ


Simply more scriptural ignorance on your part.

Now....do your thing...and ignore what scripture says...finish-out your days in ignorance...

Your very short sighted Apple, I WILL partake of the tree of life. I have been given the ticket, his name is Jesus.

Go back and study your Greek some more.

Pneuma
September 16th, 2012, 03:24 PM
Then cometh the end, when he (Jesus) shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father;(the Father is called God) when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Jesus even in glory is shown to be subject under God

keypurr
September 16th, 2012, 03:26 PM
Amen brother...I believe that too. The SON is the Eternal Word of YHWH The Father become Flesh by the Inception of Their/His Holy Spirit. Kind of like...They are He,and HE IS THE ONLY ONE TRUE,AND LIVING GOD OVER ALL...FATHER~SON~&~HOLY SPIRIT. That's the best i can come up with when it comes to Trinity Logic. Incomprehensiable,and thus it should be when it comes to trying to understand the BEING,and ESSENSE OF ALMIGHTY GOD. Nevertheless it is fun trying,and I'm pretty sure that GOD chuckles,and get's a little kick out our Trinity equations. Lol...

I do not think God is chuckling either friend. He might think that the church has created its own god. I think that. I was a Trin for many years, now I am not. Christ is a form of God, but not the almighty. Someday you may see what we are thinking. The most important thing is setting your heart to love the creator and his son. No matter how we differ, we would still be brothers in Christ.

Peace

glew
September 16th, 2012, 03:37 PM
Pnammonia,

The phrase "son of god" or "Son of god" or "Son of God" or "son of God" whichever you prefer, does not mean the same thing to you as it did to the Jews who inspired the Romans to hang Jesus. And I know that it does not because you haven't lobbied your local governing agency to Crucify those people who every now and then begin to claim publicly that they are the Son of God.

This is what the Jews did. And you want to believe that the phrase had very little meaning then just because it has very little meaning to you. I think that you are not being honest here at TOL. Because if you are being honest then you are accusing the Jews of ignoring basic human rights. The rights of the insane. You are saying that the Jews only thought that Jesus was a lunatic and that the Jews thought that lunatics should be Crucified.

As far as Beloved57's opening salvo is concerned-

Why would Jesus come right out and tell the disciples His true identity? First of all the disciples were on a low social plane. They also had a low education. And I would guess that their IQ's were nothing to brag about. Besides all that there was this traitor to deal with. These guys were one step from total wastes of time. Redemption is better than knowledge don't you think Pnammonia. The rich young loser needed redemption not knowledge. The problem was that the rich young loser had too much knowledge already.

So maybe we shouldn't be so hard on Beloved57 for taking a scripture or two out of context. I was thinking that you could be friendly and borrow Beloved57's football helmet. It would look good on your Avatar don't you think? I'm just being honest.

glew

Pneuma
September 16th, 2012, 03:56 PM
Pnammonia,

The phrase "son of god" or "Son of god" or "Son of God" or "son of God" whichever you prefer, does not mean the same thing to you as it did to the Jews who inspired the Romans to hang Jesus. And I know that it does not because you haven't lobbied your local governing agency to Crucify those people who every now and then begin to claim publicly that they are the Son of God.

This is what the Jews did. And you want to believe that the phrase had very little meaning then just because it has very little meaning to you. I think that you are not being honest here at TOL. Because if you are being honest then you are accusing the Jews of ignoring basic human rights. The rights of the insane. You are saying that the Jews only thought that Jesus was a lunatic and that the Jews thought that lunatics should be Crucified.

As far as Beloved57's opening salvo is concerned-

Why would Jesus come right out and tell the disciples His true identity? First of all the disciples were on a low social plane. They also had a low education. And I would guess that their IQ's were nothing to brag about. Besides all that there was this traitor to deal with. These guys were one step from total wastes of time. Redemption is better than knowledge don't you think Pnammonia. The rich young loser needed redemption not knowledge. The problem was that the rich young loser had too much knowledge already.

So maybe we shouldn't be so hard on Beloved57 for taking a scripture or two out of context. I was thinking that you could be friendly and borrow Beloved57's football helmet. It would look good on your Avatar don't you think? I'm just being honest.

glew

Who are you addressing?

SeraphimsCherub
September 16th, 2012, 04:11 PM
Why do you think Satan hates GOD so much,and man so much?? Because when he realized that mankind was ordained by GOD to eventually have dominion over all the angels. Lucifer the "anointed" cherub...could not bear the thought of it!And fliped his wig,and lead his rebellion against GOD. Lucifer,and the angels who rebelled with him were cast out of heaven,and became the fallen "sons of GOD". And another reason he hates mankind so much . Is because in the Book of Enoch. It reveals that Lucifer{Satan},and the angels who fell with him. Sought GOD,and petitioned that HE would grant them repentance. But GOD did not grant it unto them. That's why Satan hates us so much. Because he can never be forgiven,but we can,and he knows that his fate is hell forever! For GOD already knew that HIS beloved mankind would fall,and that HE HIMSELF would take upon HIMSELF the seed of Abraham,which is to say. That HE took upon HIMSELF the flesh of mankind. So that HE could grant us repentance,and save us from our sins. So that in HIM,HE would exalt mankind into the very place of authority Satan once had,as GOD'S right hand angel. But now,and forever it is man who has been exalted IN CHRIST JESUS to right hand of GOD THE FATHER,as the sons of GOD,"A NEW CREATION" IN CHRIST JESUS "THE SON"!" GLORY BE TO GOD!!!.

-1Co_6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
-Heb_1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
-Heb_1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
-Heb_1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
-Heb_1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

i can see satan perpetually fumigating at the mouth over the GLORY OF WHAT THESE VERSES REVEAL! GLORY BE TO GOD!!! HALLELUJAH!!!
Let no man try tell you,and try to convince you that the Book of Enoch is not Divine! But it is that Divine Missing Link that Satan,and Rome has done everything in his power for the people of GOD not to know about! And just as Enoch was translated by GOD,and was no more,for GOD had took him. So the Book of Enoch was mysteriously taken out of the Bible likewise. Don't you think it's a little bit strange. That "66" Books make up the current canon?? No it's really 67



Blessings...
SC

Apple7
September 16th, 2012, 04:15 PM
Ya and I am just soppose to take your word for it.

You don't know any Greek at all...this is painfully obvious by your pitiful responses.

You have nothing.

:cigar:

Pneuma
September 16th, 2012, 04:20 PM
You don't know any Greek at all...this is painfully obvious by your pitiful responses.

You have nothing.

:cigar:

with all your Greek knowledge you have yet to explain how the Holy Spirit is called ANOTHER.

Tambora
September 16th, 2012, 04:24 PM
And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
I'm glad that you recognize that "one" does not have to be a singular individual.

Numerics of mathematics does not apply with this "one" (as with your previous comment of 1+1+1=3).

Pneuma
September 16th, 2012, 04:28 PM
I'm glad that you can see that "one" does not have to be a singular individual.

agreed, the whole body of Christ (which includes Jesus) is one, but that does not make us God the Father. For the Father is the Head of Christ.

SeraphimsCherub
September 16th, 2012, 04:30 PM
Sorry Beloved57 for high jacking your thread brother. But i am seriously a right-brain random ADD freak of nature. So when these Revelations come like this,if i don't immediately right them down. I'll forget what I was going say. Because none of my posts are ever preplaned out. I just write what ever comes to me spontaneously.

Blessings...
SC

Tambora
September 16th, 2012, 04:35 PM
agreed, the whole body of Christ (which includes Jesus) is one, but that does not make us God the Father. For the Father is the Head of Christ.
It does not make you God the Father, or God the Son, or God the Holy Spirit.

For this "one" God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) is the only "one" God that is uncreated.

Wile E. Coyote
September 16th, 2012, 04:38 PM
with all your Greek knowledge you have yet to explain how the Holy Spirit is called ANOTHER.
According to the Greek the Holy Spirit is another of the same kind.

Pneuma
September 16th, 2012, 04:40 PM
It does not make you God the Father, or God the Son, or God the Holy Spirit.

For this "one" God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) is the only "one" God that is uncreated.

No scripture tells us the father son holy spirit is ONE God.

And Christ is NOT just Jesus, Jesus is only the HEAD of the body. therefore if Jesus is the one true God then so too is the rest of the body.

Pneuma
September 16th, 2012, 04:41 PM
According to the Greek the Holy Spirit is another of the same kind.

Not according to apples Greek.

He made a big issue out of it until I reversed it on him.

keypurr
September 16th, 2012, 04:55 PM
You miss the point Apple.

You are the one who say the Holy Ghost/Spirit is God.

ANOTHER comforter (which is the holy spirit) shows this is NOT true as the Holy Spirit is NOT refered to a Theos.

Apple is a bit strange friend. His Greek does not seem to match my 24 translations and he will never admit it. Just let him ramble on.

Pneuma
September 16th, 2012, 05:01 PM
Then cometh the end, when he (Jesus) shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father;(the Father is called God) when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Jesus even in glory is shown to be subject under God

What do you trinity people make of these scriptures?

Wile E. Coyote
September 16th, 2012, 05:04 PM
Not according to apples Greek.

He made a big issue out of it until I reversed it on him.
I am not talking to Apple. I am talking to you. The Holy Spirit is called another Comforter. The Greek is "allos" which means that He is another of the same sort of the same kind. Therefore, He is God.

OMEGA
September 16th, 2012, 05:07 PM
Mary gave birth to a Human Being.

End of Story.

Or just the Beginning.:think:

Iconodule
September 16th, 2012, 05:11 PM
Mary gave birth to a Human Being.


Yes, she gave birth to a human being who is also God- the theanthropos (God-Man).

Pneuma
September 16th, 2012, 05:11 PM
I am not talking to Apple. I am talking to you. The Holy Spirit is called another Comforter. The Greek is "allos" which means that He is another of the same sort of the same kind. Therefore, He is God.

so which expert in the greek am I suppose to believe, you or apple?

And if the comforter is another of the same sort or kind it still does not make him the one true God.

I am a son of my father, and I have sons, they are another of the same kind as I, it does NOT make them me.

Pneuma
September 16th, 2012, 05:14 PM
Mary gave birth to a Human Being.

End of Story.

Or just the Beginning.:think:


Yes, she gave birth to a human being who is also God- the theanthropos (God-Man).

oh no look what you started.:wave2:

What is ironic though is that people who believe in the trinity that are not RCC get all up tight when the RCC says Mary is the mother of God.

keypurr
September 16th, 2012, 05:24 PM
so which expert in the greek am I suppose to believe, you or apple?

And if the comforter is another of the same sort or kind it still does not make him the one true God.

I am a son of my father, and I have sons, they are another of the same kind as I, it does NOT make them me.

Of thoes present, I would only trust Tambora to read Greek. She has shown that she understsnds it better than most. And if you notice her avatar, she has guns. But she is a nice person and she can't shoot straight.

keypurr
September 16th, 2012, 05:27 PM
oh no look what you started.:wave2:

What is ironic though is that people who believe in the trinity that are not RCC get all up tight when the RCC says Mary is the mother of God.

Funny isn't it?

They don't understand that Jesus has a God.

Pneuma
September 16th, 2012, 05:30 PM
Of thoes present, I would only trust Tambora to read Greek. She has shown that she understsnds it better than most. And if you notice her avatar, she has guns. But she is a nice person and she can't shoot straight.

She's green too, a regular she hulk lol.

Thanks for the info.

Pneuma
September 16th, 2012, 05:31 PM
Funny isn't it?

They don't understand that Jesus has a God.

Yup same God we have.

I go to my God and your God, my Father and your Father.

Wile E. Coyote
September 16th, 2012, 05:35 PM
Yup same God we have.

I go to my God and your God, my Father and your Father.
Why didn't Thomas share your conclusion? Shortly after Jesus called His Father "My God" Thomas called Jesus "My Lord and My God."

One of you is wrong and it ain't Thomas.

keypurr
September 16th, 2012, 05:53 PM
Why didn't Thomas share your conclusion? Shortly after Jesus called His Father "My God" Thomas called Jesus "My Lord and My God."

One of you is wrong and it ain't Thomas.

I agree with Thomas. But Christ is not the TRUE GOD.

Wile, you must look into my thoughts on a lesser God. If Jesus is the son of the most high God there must be others considered a form of god.

Wile E. Coyote
September 16th, 2012, 05:56 PM
I agree with Thomas. But Christ is not the TRUE GOD.
So Thomas meant, "My Lord and my FALSE God."


Wile, you must look into my thoughts on a lesser God. If Jesus is the son of the most high God there must be others considered a form of god.
Polytheism. God said that no god was formed before or after Him. Isaiah 43:10. How many times do you need to be told this? You're not a child that needs to have things repeated to him.

Apple7
September 16th, 2012, 06:00 PM
Your very short sighted Apple, I WILL partake of the tree of life. I have been given the ticket, his name is Jesus.

Go back and study your Greek some more.


No pops, you deny the Creator as He has revealed Himself as Triune.

You will be judged outside of Heaven.

Apple7
September 16th, 2012, 06:04 PM
with all your Greek knowledge you have yet to explain how the Holy Spirit is called ANOTHER.

Another what...?

keypurr
September 16th, 2012, 06:06 PM
So Thomas meant, "My Lord and my FALSE God."


Polytheism. God said that no god was formed before or after Him. Isaiah 43:10. How many times do you need to be told this? You're not a child that needs to have things repeated to him.

Where did I use the word false?
Satan is working though Apple7.

Who is God calling a God in Hebrews 1?

If you wish to impress someone I suggest you find someone else for I know you to well.

We can still be friends though.

Apple7
September 16th, 2012, 06:09 PM
No scripture tells us the father son holy spirit is ONE God.And Christ is NOT just Jesus, Jesus is only the HEAD of the body. therefore if Jesus is the one true God then so too is the rest of the body.

God revealed Himself as Triune starting in the OT all the way through the NT.

Where have you been, bro...?

Apple7
September 16th, 2012, 06:13 PM
Apple is a bit strange friend. His Greek does not seem to match my 24 translations and he will never admit it. Just let him ramble on.

You don't know any Greek with which to compare, pops...so again, your assertion is meritless...

keypurr
September 16th, 2012, 06:13 PM
No pops, you deny the Creator as He has revealed Himself as Triune.

You will be judged outside of Heaven.

The creator never said he was triune. Who is greater than the God of Christ? Is the image as great as the being that it is the image of? The son is a servant of his God, he is Lord because his God made him Lord. You talk like a blind fool Apple7.

Apple7
September 16th, 2012, 06:18 PM
What do you trinity people make of these scriptures?

Why don't you tell us exactly how this supposedly thwarts the Trinity?

You uni's are all alike....you say lookie here at these verses, as if they somehow conflict with the Trinity...and yet, you can't quite tell us how they supposedly do....because you don't know what the Trinity even is...

Its fun to watch you attack your own straw-man, however...

keypurr
September 16th, 2012, 06:19 PM
You don't know any Greek with which to compare, pops...so again, your assertion is meritless...

But the translators of my 24 translations know Greek and Hebrew.

And they very seldom agree with you. Go get e-sword for yourself, its a great Bible program and you too can compare what you think the Greek is saying against what the translators think. Rick Has done a wonderful job creating this free program for folks like you and me.

Apple7
September 16th, 2012, 06:22 PM
so which expert in the greek am I suppose to believe, you or apple?

And if the comforter is another of the same sort or kind it still does not make him the one true God.

I am a son of my father, and I have sons, they are another of the same kind as I, it does NOT make them me.


The son of a human is human.

The Son of God is God.

Apple7
September 16th, 2012, 06:24 PM
Why didn't Thomas share your conclusion? Shortly after Jesus called His Father "My God" Thomas called Jesus "My Lord and My God."

One of you is wrong and it ain't Thomas.

:up:

Apple7
September 16th, 2012, 06:28 PM
So Thomas meant, "My Lord and my FALSE God."


Polytheism. God said that no god was formed before or after Him. Isaiah 43:10. How many times do you need to be told this? You're not a child that needs to have things repeated to him.


Wile,

We have to remember that pops is 80 years old and that Alzheimer’s runs strong in his family....not a very good mix for learning new material...

Apple7
September 16th, 2012, 06:32 PM
The creator never said he was triune. Who is greater than the God of Christ? Is the image as great as the being that it is the image of? The son is a servant of his God, he is Lord because his God made him Lord. You talk like a blind fool Apple7.


The Creator has always revealed Himself as Triune in scripture.

However, you never study scripture.

SeraphimsCherub
September 16th, 2012, 06:34 PM
Why is it so hard for you guys to believe GOD IS A ETERNAL TRI~DEITY IN BEING THE ONE DIVINITY THAT HE IS?? When 7 billion people simultaneously have their being,and existance at the same time within the BEING OF GOD everyday. Not mention the all the angels in heaven,and satan and all the angels who fell with him. From all the breathing nats,to all the lions who are breathing right this very moment,and all the fowls of the air,and all the fishes of the sea simultaneously every second of every single day?
Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

Apple7
September 16th, 2012, 06:45 PM
But the translators of my 24 translations know Greek and Hebrew.
And they very seldom agree with you. Go get e-sword for yourself, its a great Bible program and you too can compare what you think the Greek is saying against what the translators think. Rick Has done a wonderful job creating this free program for folks like you and me.


Talking with pops is like talking to an 80 year old brick wall.

We have already been over this with you hundreds of times before....all of your 24 translations where done by Trinitarians!

Start using your head....you are the odd one out, pops!

SeraphimsCherub
September 16th, 2012, 06:55 PM
Well let me break it down to you like thus. You see...GOD mentions numerous times throughout the Old Testament. That HE IS THE OF GOD OF THAT trinity of persons named Abraham,Isaac,and Jacob. A physical type,and representation of Jehovah GOD The Father,Son,and Holy Spirit.

glew
September 16th, 2012, 07:06 PM
Pnammonia,

24 translations? That's a good'n. When you were a kid didn't you ever play a game where the first player whispered a secret into the next player's ear and so on until all 24 students got to hear an account of the secret?

Do they have any transliterations in them 24 translations there Pnammonia? I just know you are ready to explain baptism in its fullest context since ol' Rick has done such a fine job.

Most of them there translations collected a lot of dust. I got some mechanic tools in my garage that are junk. Them junk tools are the shiniest tools I got. The old lady says sell them unused useless junk tools. But I just don't have the heart to rip some innocent guy off who is just starting out trying to make a living.

glew

keypurr
September 16th, 2012, 07:12 PM
The Creator has always revealed Himself as Triune in scripture.

However, you never study scripture.

In your eyes, not mine.

SeraphimsCherub
September 16th, 2012, 07:16 PM
Right here in this verse of the Old Testament is the irrefutable evidence that YHWH GOD IS A TRINITY!
Zec 12:8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
Zec 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Blessings...
SC

keypurr
September 16th, 2012, 07:19 PM
Why is it so hard for you guys to believe GOD IS A ETERNAL TRI~DEITY IN BEING THE ONE DIVINITY THAT HE IS?? When 7 billion people simultaneously have their being,and existance at the same time within the BEING OF GOD everyday. Not mention the all the angels in heaven,and satan and all the angels who fell with him. From all the breathing nats,to all the lions who are breathing right this very moment,and all the fowls of the air,and all the fishes of the sea simultaneously every second of every single day?
Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

I was a Trin for many years, the deeper I got into the scriptures, the more I reject it. Jesus Christ has a God. So he is not the true god. But he does have deity, given to him buy his God. Jesus is the physical son of God, he was given the image spirit of his God (Christ)
God sent his son, not himself. (John 3:16)

keypurr
September 16th, 2012, 07:22 PM
Talking with pops is like talking to an 80 year old brick wall.

We have already been over this with you hundreds of times before....all of your 24 translations where done by Trinitarians!

Start using your head....you are the odd one out, pops!

I don't mind being the odd one Apple, many are called but few are chosen.

keypurr
September 16th, 2012, 07:34 PM
Pnammonia,

24 translations? That's a good'n. When you were a kid didn't you ever play a game where the first player whispered a secret into the next player's ear and so on until all 24 students got to hear an account of the secret?

Do they have any transliterations in them 24 translations there Pnammonia? I just know you are ready to explain baptism in its fullest context since ol' Rick has done such a fine job.

Most of them there translations collected a lot of dust. I got some mechanic tools in my garage that are junk. Them junk tools are the shiniest tools I got. The old lady says sell them unused useless junk tools. But I just don't have the heart to rip some innocent guy off who is just starting out trying to make a living.

glew

Most of my translations are on my e-sword so I can use them with ease. I love my e-sword. I keep some notes on it and the commentaries are great. Everyone see life a different way, life would be boring if that was untrue. Faith come from some understanding of what we see, hear or read about. And we do not all see or hear or read about the same things.

Peace

keypurr
September 16th, 2012, 07:37 PM
Right here in this verse of the Old Testament is the irrefutable evidence that YHWH GOD IS A TRINITY!
Zec 12:8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
Zec 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Blessings...
SC

How does any of that tell us Jesus is God?

Keep in mind Moses and Angles have spoke AS God.

Tambora
September 16th, 2012, 07:38 PM
Funny isn't it?

They don't understand that Jesus has a God.I know we have talked about this before, but thought I would interject it again for some of our newcomers.


Elohim (God) is not a singular individual, but a unity.

I have, before, expressed this with the analogy of a city council.
There is only one council, but that one council consists of a unity of individuals.

And a singular member of that one council can say that they have a council.

Apple7
September 16th, 2012, 07:52 PM
I don't mind being the odd one Apple, many are called but few are chosen.

Unitarian garbage.

keypurr
September 16th, 2012, 07:52 PM
I know we have talked about this before, but thought I would interject it again for some of our newcomers.


Elohim (God) is not a singular individual, but a unity.

I have, before, expressed this with the analogy of a city council.
There is only one council, but that one council consists of a unity of individuals.

And a singular member of that one council can say that they have a council.

I remember that being said, but even if ther is more than one, only one is the true God. I see the deity in Christ, but he is a servant of his Father who he says is the only true God. So maybe there is more than one, but only one is the real God.

Tam, your post of last week made me realize how educated you. I envy you for I have very little college education. The little bit I do have though is high. (4.0) I would have made a great scientist but it just was not in the cards. But I feel that God has blessed me with the power to reason to learn. Now, after all these years I am still learning about our great God.

keypurr
September 16th, 2012, 07:54 PM
Unitarian garbage.

Nope, its in the book. Google it Apple.

Apple7
September 16th, 2012, 08:05 PM
Keep in mind Moses and Angles have spoke AS God.

Show us.

Wile E. Coyote
September 16th, 2012, 08:09 PM
How does any of that tell us Jesus is God?

Keep in mind Moses and Angles have spoke AS God.
Only ONE angel spoke as God because He eas God.

And he blessed Joseph, and said:
“God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac walked,
The God who has fed me all my life long to this day,
The Angel who has redeemed me from all evil, Genesis 48:15-16

Apple7
September 16th, 2012, 08:15 PM
Now we play the waiting game as pops ignores the challenge to his assertion...

keypurr
September 16th, 2012, 08:50 PM
Only ONE angel spoke as God because He eas God.

And he blessed Joseph, and said:
“God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac walked,
The God who has fed me all my life long to this day,
The Angel who has redeemed me from all evil, Genesis 48:15-16

Not so Wile, Christ never was an Angel, although he spoke through one.

Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

Heb 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

Stop degrading your Lord.

keypurr
September 16th, 2012, 08:51 PM
Show us.

Your greek will not understand it Apple.

Apple7
September 16th, 2012, 08:58 PM
Your greek will not understand it Apple.

Since when did Moses speak Greek, pops???!!!


Are you feeling Ok...?

keypurr
September 16th, 2012, 09:16 PM
Since when did Moses speak Greek, pops???!!!


Are you feeling Ok...?

Prove that he didn't Apple.
That will keep you busy and out of our hair.

No.

Apple7
September 16th, 2012, 09:33 PM
Everyone knows that Moses spoke Russian.

Oh come on, pops!

keypurr
September 16th, 2012, 09:50 PM
Oh come on, pops!

See, this is what they call distortion.
Now folks will think that that is my post.
I said he spoke Swedish.

glew
September 17th, 2012, 07:23 AM
Concerning our beloved57's verses of choice-

Jesus did not feel inclined in the least to share with the rich young loser or the twelve dum dums who He really was. So the question is-

Why should we?

(Is the answer pride? We have enough of that and more than enough to go around.)

Pneuma
September 21st, 2012, 06:35 AM
Why didn't Thomas share your conclusion? Shortly after Jesus called His Father "My God" Thomas called Jesus "My Lord and My God."

One of you is wrong and it ain't Thomas.


Thomas does share my conclusion. When Thomas saw Jesus he said my Lord and my God.

Tell me this, when people look at us christians are they to see us or are they to see Christ in us?

Same senerio, thus Jesus said when you have seen me you have seen the Father.

If one looks upon Jesus Christ they will see the Father.

Pneuma
September 21st, 2012, 06:38 AM
Another what...?

You have backed yourself into a corner apple you know it, I know it and the readers know it. All your doing now is posturing

Pneuma
September 21st, 2012, 06:39 AM
God revealed Himself as Triune starting in the OT all the way through the NT.

Where have you been, bro...?

only according to trinitarians

Pneuma
September 21st, 2012, 06:42 AM
Why don't you tell us exactly how this supposedly thwarts the Trinity?

You uni's are all alike....you say lookie here at these verses, as if they somehow conflict with the Trinity...and yet, you can't quite tell us how they supposedly do....because you don't know what the Trinity even is...

Its fun to watch you attack your own straw-man, however...



Christ according to you guys is God, so how can God be subject to God if they are ONE God?

That scripture undoes the whole Trinitarian belief.

Pneuma
September 21st, 2012, 06:45 AM
The son of a human is human.

The Son of God is God.

My argument is not that Christ is not God, my argument is Christ is not God the Father. They are two disticnt beings, just as my sons are not me, but come from me.

Pneuma
September 21st, 2012, 06:48 AM
Well let me break it down to you like thus. You see...GOD mentions numerous times throughout the Old Testament. That HE IS THE OF GOD OF THAT trinity of persons named Abraham,Isaac,and Jacob. A physical type,and representation of Jehovah GOD The Father,Son,and Holy Spirit.

Yet Abe is not Isaac and Isaac is not Jacob.

Pneuma
September 21st, 2012, 06:51 AM
I know we have talked about this before, but thought I would interject it again for some of our newcomers.


Elohim (God) is not a singular individual, but a unity.

I have, before, expressed this with the analogy of a city council.
There is only one council, but that one council consists of a unity of individuals.

And a singular member of that one council can say that they have a council.

yes and Jesus said we are elohim, does that make us the one true God also?

beloved57
September 21st, 2012, 07:41 AM
yes and Jesus said we are elohim, does that make us the one true God also?

Thats a dumb question, no comparison !

Pneuma
September 21st, 2012, 08:12 AM
I know we have talked about this before, but thought I would interject it again for some of our newcomers.


Elohim (God) is not a singular individual, but a unity.

I have, before, expressed this with the analogy of a city council.
There is only one council, but that one council consists of a unity of individuals.

And a singular member of that one council can say that they have a council.


yes and Jesus said we are elohim, does that make us the one true God also?


Thats a dumb question, no comparison !

Yet if Elohim/God is a unity and we are elohim we are part of that unity.

Thus one could conclude we are God.

So it is not a dumb question and the comparison is accurate.

You don't like it because it exposes the trinity concept as false. So you will just have to deal with it.

Iconodule
September 21st, 2012, 08:27 AM
Pneuma, you must some day understand the difference between "gods" by grace ("Ye are gods") and God by nature. This is what happens when people stray from the Tradition of the Church and rely on their own personal views to interpret scripture. This forum is full of one-man churches and self-appointed Popes, none of whom agree with each other except on the idea that scripture can say whatever we want it to say.

Pneuma
September 21st, 2012, 08:31 AM
Pneuma, you must some day understand the difference between "gods" by grace ("Ye are gods") and God by nature. This is what happens when people stray from the Tradition of the Church and rely on their own personal views to interpret scripture. This forum is full of one-man churches and self-appointed Popes, none of whom agree with each other except on the idea that scripture can say whatever we want it to say.

And you must understand the Christ is MORE then the HEAD Jesus.

If the HEAD is the one true God so to is the BODY of Christ.

What you are doing is cutting the HEAD off the BODY and by doing so you in effect kill Christ.

Iconodule
September 21st, 2012, 08:33 AM
And you must understand the Christ is MORE then the HEAD Jesus.

If the HEAD is the one true God so to is the BODY of Christ.

What you are doing is cutting the HEAD off the BODY and by doing so you in effect kill Christ.

Wow, Pneuma, if only the early Church had YOU around to explain to them what the scriptures mean. It must be very lonely being the only real Christian in the world.

Pneuma
September 21st, 2012, 09:03 AM
Wow, Pneuma, if only the early Church had YOU around to explain to them what the scriptures mean. It must be very lonely being the only real Christian in the world.

I don't play those kind of games icon

beloved57
September 21st, 2012, 09:56 AM
pn


Yet if Elohim/God is a unity and we are elohim we are part of that unity.

Thus one could conclude we are God.

So it is not a dumb question and the comparison is accurate.

You don't like it because it exposes the trinity concept as false. So you will just have to deal with it.

Yes its dumb, no comparison. Just foolish talking you doing !

Apple7
September 21st, 2012, 11:58 AM
You have backed yourself into a corner apple you know it, I know it and the readers know it. All your doing now is posturing

What are you even talking about...?

Apple7
September 21st, 2012, 12:00 PM
Christ according to you guys is God,

This is according to scripture.



so how can God be subject to God if they are ONE God?

Ever heard of the Trinity, before?




That scripture undoes the whole Trinitarian belief.

Scripture undoes uni-belief.

Apple7
September 21st, 2012, 12:03 PM
My argument is not that Christ is not God, my argument is Christ is not God the Father. They are two disticnt beings, just as my sons are not me, but come from me.

Whoever said that the Father is the Son, besides you???!

The Trinity already comprehends that they are not each other....however, they are each the one God.

See your confusion?

Pneuma
September 21st, 2012, 12:17 PM
Whoever said that the Father is the Son, besides you???!

The Trinity already comprehends that they are not each other....however, they are each the one God.

See your confusion?

And that is why Jesus said my God and your God. It can't get any plainer then that.

Apple7
September 21st, 2012, 06:54 PM
And that is why Jesus said my God and your God. It can't get any plainer then that.

Still waiting for you to detail to us how this supposedly thwarts the Trinity...

:cigar:

beloved57
September 21st, 2012, 09:47 PM
And that is why Jesus said my God and your God. It can't get any plainer then that.


God the Father was and is Jesus God and Father, who ever denied that ?

keypurr
September 21st, 2012, 09:57 PM
And you must understand the Christ is MORE then the HEAD Jesus.

If the HEAD is the one true God so to is the BODY of Christ.

What you are doing is cutting the HEAD off the BODY and by doing so you in effect kill Christ.

:cheers:

Gill White
September 22nd, 2012, 02:34 AM
Yes, she gave birth to a human being who is also God- the theanthropos (God-Man).

Let's see what the angel said, bearing in mind God sent the angel:

Luke 1:30-33 GW
The angel told her, "Don't be afraid, Mary. You have found favor with God. You will become pregnant, give birth to a son, and name him Jesus. He will be a great man and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his ancestor David. Your son will be king of Jacob's people forever, and his kingdom will never end."

Jesus is the Son of the MOST HIGH GOD?

Mark 5:7 GW
and shouted, "Why are you bothering me now, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? Swear to God that you won't torture me."

Luk 8:28 GW
When he saw Jesus, he shouted, fell in front of him, and said in a loud voice, "Why are you bothering me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you not to torture me!"

Now who is the MOST HIGH GOD?

Gill White
September 22nd, 2012, 03:01 AM
The best way to teach, is to rather prove that the trinity doctrine is true, then asking someone to thwart it:

I am yet to find one person, who actually knows and understands the ''trinity'' doctrine.


A catholic priest said this: “The trinity is a wonderful mystery. No one understands it......”

Lon
September 22nd, 2012, 03:26 AM
The best way to teach, is to rather prove that the trinity doctrine is true, then asking someone to thwart it:

I am yet to find one person, who actually knows and understands the ''trinity'' doctrine.
So if God tells you something but you aren't exactly sure what it all means, you won't believe it until He comes down and it explains it just to you?
:doh:
I don't know how I will be changed like Him when I see Him face to face 1John 3, but I believe it. :doh:

Gill White
September 22nd, 2012, 06:38 AM
So if God tells you something but you aren't exactly sure what it all means, you won't believe it until He comes down and it explains it just to you?
:doh:
I don't know how I will be changed like Him when I see Him face to face 1John 3, but I believe it. :doh:

God has told you and explained it to you.

Jesus is God's son, but you don't believe that.

So you decided not to believe God.

When someone comes along and tells you that Jesus was God the Son, the 2nd person of the trinity, you believe it.

But when God says Jesus is the Son of Most High God, you don't believe God. :doh:

Luke 1:30-33 GW
The angel told her, "Don't be afraid, Mary. You have found favor with God. You will become pregnant, give birth to a son, and name him Jesus. He will be a great man and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his ancestor David. Your son will be king of Jacob's people forever, and his kingdom will never end."

Jesus is the Son of the MOST HIGH GOD?

Mark 5:7 GW
and shouted, "Why are you bothering me now, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? Swear to God that you won't torture me."

Luk 8:28 GW
When he saw Jesus, he shouted, fell in front of him, and said in a loud voice, "Why are you bothering me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you not to torture me!"

Gill White
September 22nd, 2012, 07:11 AM
God has told you and explained it to you.

Jesus is God's son, but you don't believe that.

So you decided not to believe God.

When someone comes along and tells you that Jesus was God the Son, the 2nd person of the trinity, you believe it.

But when God says Jesus is the Son of Most High God, you don't believe God. :doh:

Luke 1:30-33 GW
The angel told her, "Don't be afraid, Mary. You have found favor with God. You will become pregnant, give birth to a son, and name him Jesus. He will be a great man and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his ancestor David. Your son will be king of Jacob's people forever, and his kingdom will never end."

Jesus is the Son of the MOST HIGH GOD?

Mark 5:7 GW
and shouted, "Why are you bothering me now, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? Swear to God that you won't torture me."

Luk 8:28 GW
When he saw Jesus, he shouted, fell in front of him, and said in a loud voice, "Why are you bothering me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you not to torture me!"

Acts 3:13-26 GW
(13) The God of our ancestors Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob has glorified his servant Jesus. You handed Jesus over to Pilate. You rejected him in Pilate's presence, even though Pilate had decided to let him go free.
(14) You rejected the man who was holy and innocent. You asked to have a murderer given to you,
(15) and you killed the source of life. But God brought him back to life, and we are witnesses to that.
(16) We believe in the one named Jesus. Through his power alone this man, whom you know, was healed, as all of you saw.
(17) "And now, brothers, I know that like your rulers you didn't know what you were doing.
(18) But in this way God made the sufferings of his Messiah come true. God had predicted these sufferings through all the prophets.
(19) So change the way you think and act, and turn to God to have your sins removed.
(20) Then times will come when the Lord will refresh you. He will send you Jesus, whom he has appointed to be the Christ.
(21) Heaven must receive Jesus until the time when everything will be restored as God promised through his holy prophets long ago.
(22) "Moses said, 'The Lord your God will send you a prophet, an Israelite like me. Listen to everything he tells you.
(23) Those who won't listen to that prophet will be excluded from the people.'
(24) Samuel and all the prophets who followed him spoke about these days.
(25) You are the descendants of the prophets and the heirs of the promise that God made to our ancestors when he said to Abraham, 'Through your descendant all people on earth will be blessed.'
(26) God has brought his servant back to life and has sent him to you first. God did this to bless you by turning every one of you from your evil ways."

1Th 1:10 GW
(10) and to wait for his Son to come from heaven. His Son is Jesus, whom he brought back to life. Jesus is the one who rescues us from God's coming anger.

Gill White
September 22nd, 2012, 07:22 AM
Whoever said that the Father is the Son, besides you???!


What did Jesus mean, when Jesus said this:

John 10:30 GW
(30) The Father and I are one."

Gill White
September 22nd, 2012, 07:44 AM
My argument is not that Christ is not God, my argument is Christ is not God the Father. They are two disticnt beings, just as my sons are not me, but come from me.

Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God:

Mat 16:16
And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Mat 26:63
But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.

Joh 6:68-69 KJV
(68) Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
(69) And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

Wile E. Coyote
September 22nd, 2012, 09:51 AM
Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God:

Mat 16:16
And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Mat 26:63
But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.
To All,

Please note that GW omits what comes next in Jesus' verbal encounter with Caiaphas. After Caiaphas had asked Jesus if He was the Christ, the Son of God Jesus affirmed that He was. Then Caiaphas rent his clothes which was a sign that Jesus had committed blasphemy and profaned the name of God. For Jesus to claim to be the Son of God in the manner He did was to profane God's very Name, John 19:5; Leviticus 24:16.

Apple7
September 22nd, 2012, 10:54 AM
The best way to teach, is to rather prove that the trinity doctrine is true, then asking someone to thwart it:

I am yet to find one person, who actually knows and understands the ''trinity'' doctrine.

No Gill,

The premise is for Trinity deniers to state what they even think it is in the first place before they construct their false strawman argument against it.

My avatar completely and logically explains the Trinity deity combos per scripture.

If you disagree, then present your own perception of what you feel that it is....so far, you have refused to even tell us what you even think that it is...only that you are against it....

Apple7
September 22nd, 2012, 10:58 AM
What did Jesus mean, when Jesus said this:

John 10:30 GW
(30) The Father and I are one."

We have already been over this with you numerous times, Gill.

Repetition helps.

Why don't you start by giving some context....or....is this how uni's make their doctrine function - by ignoring context and wildly high-fiving each other for the sheer simplicity of their assertions...?

I know that is how Muslim and other Unitarian cults operate.

Apple7
September 22nd, 2012, 11:01 AM
To All,

Please note that GW omits what comes next in Jesus' verbal encounter with Caiaphas. After Caiaphas had asked Jesus if He was the Christ, the Son of God Jesus affirmed that He was. Then Caiaphas rent his clothes which was a sign that Jesus had committed blasphemy and profaned the name of God. For Jesus to claim to be the Son of God in the manner He did was to profane God's very Name, John 19:5; Leviticus 24:16.

:up:

Pneuma
September 22nd, 2012, 11:40 AM
Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God:

Mat 16:16
And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Mat 26:63
But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.

Joh 6:68-69 KJV
(68) Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
(69) And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

I agree so you must have misunderstood my point

beloved57
September 22nd, 2012, 03:33 PM
The Issue is not accepting the scriptures that present the Manhood of Christ, the problem is those who reject the scriptures that present the Christ as God in His Deity.

keypurr
September 22nd, 2012, 09:47 PM
So if God tells you something but you aren't exactly sure what it all means, you won't believe it until He comes down and it explains it just to you?
:doh:
I don't know how I will be changed like Him when I see Him face to face 1John 3, but I believe it. :doh:

Is your line of reason easy to cross?

Tradition is not enough for some of us. Life would be easier if it were.

Can't build a faith without a firm foundation friend.

keypurr
September 22nd, 2012, 09:59 PM
The Issue is not accepting the scriptures that present the Manhood of Christ, the problem is those who reject the scriptures that present the Christ as God in His Deity.

Christ is not God almighty, he is the image of god.

2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Christ has a god.
He is the son of God, not God. He is a form of god.

Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Gill White
September 23rd, 2012, 12:29 AM
To All,

Please note that GW omits what comes next in Jesus' verbal encounter with Caiaphas. After Caiaphas had asked Jesus if He was the Christ, the Son of God Jesus affirmed that He was. Then Caiaphas rent his clothes which was a sign that Jesus had committed blasphemy and profaned the name of God. For Jesus to claim to be the Son of God in the manner He did was to profane God's very Name, John 19:5; Leviticus 24:16.

We should be lining our thinking up with the ''disciples'' not with those who were on the other side, and who were against Jesus and did not believe Jesus.

I do not line my way of thinking up with those who were against Jesus, because they did not believe that God sent Him, nor did they believe that Jesus was the Son of God, nor did they believe Jesus was the Christ of God.

I listen to Jesus, His Words: Not the Jews nor anyone else who did not except God's son

Lev 24:16 GW
(16) But those who curse the LORD'S name must be put to death. The whole congregation must stone them to death. It makes no difference whether they are Israelites or foreigners. Whoever curses the LORD'S name must die.

Just because the Jews did not believe, this does not give us any reason to NOT believe:

Lon
September 23rd, 2012, 01:05 AM
God has told you and explained it to you.

Jesus is God's son, but you don't believe that.
Somehow, in your head, and quite speaking past any of us, you believe this true. It isn't, but of course it is why you are you and I am me and we do not see eye to eye.


So you decided not to believe God.
No, in fact, you won't believe God until/unless you figure it all out. That, frankly, is incredibly egocentric and arrogant. That you believe 1) you are entitled to it from God and 2) that you believe yourself smarter than most nearly every believer who has ever lived.


When someone comes along and tells you that Jesus was God the Son, the 2nd person of the trinity, you believe it.
You are 100% correct. John 1:1-18 John 14:9 John 20:28
Of course I believe it.


But when God says Jesus is the Son of Most High God, you don't believe God. :doh:
Yes I do, GW.: John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.
▲look▲ it is right there, plain as day - More:
John 14:9 Jesus said to him, Have I been with you such a long time and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father. And how do you say, Show us the Father?
▼and▼
John 10:30 I and the Father are one!

Luke 1:30-33 GW
The angel told her, "Don't be afraid, Mary. You have found favor with God. You will become pregnant, give birth to a son, and name him Jesus. He will be a great man and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his ancestor David. Your son will be king of Jacob's people forever, and his kingdom will never end."

Jesus is the Son of the MOST HIGH GOD?

Mark 5:7 GW
and shouted, "Why are you bothering me now, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? Swear to God that you won't torture me."

Luk 8:28 GW
When he saw Jesus, he shouted, fell in front of him, and said in a loud voice, "Why are you bothering me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you not to torture me!"
As has already been said, the problem is you think 1) that I don't believe this and 2) that Jesus cannot be God in the flesh John 1:14
1Jn 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of Life.

Let's just admit this right now, GW: That you will only accept God on your terms rather than you His, and you will only accept those if they are clear to you, like a private questioning his/her superior officer. You are your own general and you don't care a whit what the rest of us think or believe is true and you do not answer to anybody but yourself. You couldn't change your mind if God came down and told you to do. It is mho, that unless He came down and told you point blank to do so, you would never change what you believe. You are too far gone into your self to answer for what you believe.

Lon
September 23rd, 2012, 01:15 AM
Tradition is not enough for some of us. Life would be easier if it were.
Not enough? You don't even give it/us a moment's glance! :doh:


Can't build a faith without a firm foundation friend.
And as with GW, you are building off of your very own intellect, not scripture, not God. Your own logic, right or wrong and by most of your accounts, without the education for doing so. I'd flat out hate, hate mind you, to 1) have to stand on my own intellect had I poor school grades/ability, 2) had I an idea for which I stood quite alone without support, to even think I was in God's good graces for being such a pinheaded putz against other brothers and sisters in the faith with equal or better devotion and smarts 3) had to, in fact, step over scriptures that were at the very least, enough to give me great pause 4) to cause disturbance in the body over a matter that I was unsure of because of these other 3 doubtful/dubious points, and honest enough to admit it.

You people don't only not hate it, you seem to revel in your self importance. No? Remember jumping so quickly into the "Jesus was married" thread, for it? Entertaining quite readily the ridiculous and especially over against tradition and normative? :think:

Gill White
September 23rd, 2012, 01:24 AM
No Gill,

The premise is for Trinity deniers to state what they even think it is in the first place before they construct their false strawman argument against it.

My avatar completely and logically explains the Trinity deity combos per scripture.

If you disagree, then present your own perception of what you feel that it is....so far, you have refused to even tell us what you even think that it is...only that you are against it....

When we speak and read from the Word of God, we can deal with each other equally: Strawman arguments are NOT my concern. We are new creation in Christ now.

1Co 2:4
I didn't speak my message with persuasive intellectual arguments. I spoke my message with a show of spiritual power

2Ti 2:23
Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments. You know they cause quarrels.

The early ''church/calling out/believers) reasoned from the scriptures. Those who were born again of God, helped those who may or may not understood.

Acts 17:2 KJV
(2) And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

But my trust does get broken, when people add phrases to the Word of God such as these:

God the Son, 1st, 2nd, 3rd person of the Trinity, Triune, so my trust has already been broken.

But nothing is impossible with God, God can mend that trust.

''God the Son''

Where did this phrase come from:

A) From man

B) From God

The answer is (A)

Can you confess to us all here, that fully understand the ''trinity doctrine'' yes or no?


A catholic priest said this: “The trinity is a wonderful mystery. No one understands it......”

Gill White
September 23rd, 2012, 01:25 AM
I agree so you must have misunderstood my point

:thumb:

Sorry if I misunderstood you.

Gill White
September 23rd, 2012, 01:47 AM
Somehow, in your head, and quite speaking past any of us, you believe this true. It isn't, but of course it is why you are you and I am me and we do not see eye to eye.

No, in fact, you won't believe God until/unless you figure it all out. That, frankly, is incredibly egocentric and arrogant. That you believe 1) you are entitled to it from God and 2) that you believe yourself smarter than most nearly every believer who has ever lived.

God has already told us Lon:

God tells us that Jesus is God's son

So where do you think I got this information from?

Luk 1:30-32 GW
(30) The angel told her, "Don't be afraid, Mary. You have found favor with God. You will become pregnant, give birth to a son, and name him Jesus. He will be a great man and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his ancestor David.

1Th 1:10 GW
(10) and to wait for his Son to come from heaven. His Son is Jesus, whom he brought back to life. Jesus is the one who rescues us from God's coming anger.

Gill White
September 23rd, 2012, 01:58 AM
You are 100% correct. John 1:1-18 John 14:9 John 20:28
Of course I believe it.


Yes I do, GW.: John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.
▲look▲ it is right there, plain as day - More:
John 14:9 Jesus said to him, Have I been with you such a long time and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father. And how do you say, Show us the Father?
▼and▼
John 10:30 I and the Father are one!

John 6:63 GW
(63) Life is spiritual. Your physical existence doesn't contribute to that life. The words that I have spoken to you are spiritual. They are life.

John 3:6 GW
(6) Flesh and blood give birth to flesh and blood, but the Spirit gives birth to things that are spiritual.

Gill White
September 23rd, 2012, 02:11 AM
As has already been said, the problem is you think 1) that I don't believe this and 2) that Jesus cannot be God in the flesh John 1:14
1Jn 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of Life.

God is spirit:

John 3:16 GW
(16) God loved the world this way: He gave his only Son so that everyone who believes in him will not die but will have eternal life.

1Jn 1:1 GW
(1) The Word of life existed from the beginning. We have heard it. We have seen it. We observed and touched it.

John 6:63 GW
(63) Life is spiritual. Your physical existence doesn't contribute to that life. The words that I have spoken to you are spiritual. They are life.

1Jn 1:6-7 GW
(6) If we say, "We have a relationship with God" and yet live in the dark, we're lying. We aren't being truthful.
(7) But if we live in the light in the same way that God is in the light, we have a relationship with each other. And the blood of his Son Jesus cleanses us from every sin.

Gill White
September 23rd, 2012, 02:24 AM
You are your own general and you don't care a whit what the rest of us think or believe is true and you do not answer to anybody but yourself.

My general is God my Father and my Lord is Jesus Christ:

And yes I do care about you, and I care about others, and I will do my best to pull someone from the fire...

Gill White
September 23rd, 2012, 02:46 AM
We have already been over this with you numerous times, Gill.

Repetition helps.

Why don't you start by giving some context....or....is this how uni's make their doctrine function - by ignoring context and wildly high-fiving each other for the sheer simplicity of their assertions...?




In a previous post, you said ''Whoever said that the Father is the Son''


Whoever said that the Father is the Son, besides you???!


So my question to you is this:

What did Jesus mean, when Jesus said this:

John 10:30 GW
(30) The Father and I are one."

Pneuma
September 23rd, 2012, 06:40 AM
Not enough? You don't even give it/us a moment's glance! :doh:


And as with GW, you are building off of your very own intellect, not scripture, not God. Your own logic, right or wrong and by most of your accounts, without the education for doing so. I'd flat out hate, hate mind you, to 1) have to stand on my own intellect had I poor school grades/ability, 2) had I an idea for which I stood quite alone without support, to even think I was in God's good graces for being such a pinheaded putz against other brothers and sisters in the faith with equal or better devotion and smarts 3) had to, in fact, step over scriptures that were at the very least, enough to give me great pause 4) to cause disturbance in the body over a matter that I was unsure of because of these other 3 doubtful/dubious points, and honest enough to admit it.

You people don't only not hate it, you seem to revel in your self importance. No? Remember jumping so quickly into the "Jesus was married" thread, for it? Entertaining quite readily the ridiculous and especially over against tradition and normative? :think:


Well the high priests called Peter and the boys ignorant fishermen so I guess that keypurr is in good company. And to say that those who do not believe in the trinity are not using scripture is just plain wrong.

Pneuma
September 23rd, 2012, 06:42 AM
The Issue is not accepting the scriptures that present the Manhood of Christ, the problem is those who reject the scriptures that present the Christ as God in His Deity.

Rejecting YOUR understanding of the scriptures is NOT the same as rejecting the scriptures.

Apple7
September 23rd, 2012, 07:39 AM
Let's take a look at how Gill ignores the challenge to tell us what the Trinity is...



When we speak and read from the Word of God, we can deal with each other equally: Strawman arguments are NOT my concern. We are new creation in Christ now.

1Co 2:4
I didn't speak my message with persuasive intellectual arguments. I spoke my message with a show of spiritual power

2Ti 2:23
Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments. You know they cause quarrels.

The early ''church/calling out/believers) reasoned from the scriptures. Those who were born again of God, helped those who may or may not understood.

Acts 17:2 KJV
(2) And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,



Nothing about your premise of what you think the Trinity is....in these scriptures.








But my trust does get broken, when people add phrases to the Word of God such as these:

God the Son, 1st, 2nd, 3rd person of the Trinity, Triune, so my trust has already been broken.

Why don't you show us scripture that demonstrates that these things have been added, as you assert....





But nothing is impossible with God, God can mend that trust.

''God the Son''

Where did this phrase come from:

A) From man

B) From God

The answer is (A)


The answer is from scripture.






Can you confess to us all here, that fully understand the ''trinity doctrine'' yes or no?

Look at this cop-out by Gill, folks!

Gill does not know what the Trinity is....but is more than ready to reject it and put the 'definition' of it right back on the one who is asking in the first place.

Again...stop running and look at my avatar.



:sheep:

Apple7
September 23rd, 2012, 07:47 AM
In a previous post, you said ''Whoever said that the Father is the Son''



So my question to you is this:

What did Jesus mean, when Jesus said this:

John 10:30 GW
(30) The Father and I are one."


One God.

Pneuma
September 23rd, 2012, 08:15 AM
Let's take a look at how Gill ignores the challenge to tell us what the Trinity is...

How can one explain something that is nonexistent?:wave2:

Gill White
September 23rd, 2012, 08:22 AM
One God.

Jesus said He was the Son of God, Jesus also said the Father and I are one, so Jesus, who is the Son of God and is one with the Father, must also be the Father as well, which you denied in our previous post.


Whoever said that the Father is the Son, besides you???!

Gill White
September 23rd, 2012, 08:36 AM
Again...stop running and look at my avatar.


My mind is not your avatar, I will deal with spiritual matters :)

Acts 8:30-31 GW
Philip ran to the carriage and could hear the official reading the prophet Isaiah out loud. Philip asked him, "Do you understand what you're reading?" The official answered, "How can I understand unless someone guides me?" So he invited Philip to sit with him in his carriage. (Isa. 53)

Isa 53:1-7 LITV
(1) Who has believed our report? And to whom is the arm of Jehovah revealed?
(2) For He comes up before Him as a tender plant, and as a root out of dry ground. He has no form nor magnificence that we should see Him; nor form that we should desire Him.
(3) He is despised and abandoned of men, a Man of pains, and acquainted with sickness. And as it were hiding our faces from Him, He being despised, and we did not value Him.
(4) Surely He has borne our sicknesses, and He carried our pain; yet we esteemed Him plagued, smitten by God, and afflicted.
(5) But He was wounded for our transgressions; He was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon Him; and with His wounds we ourselves are healed.
(6) All we like sheep have gone astray; we have each one turned to his own way; and Jehovah made meet in Him the iniquity of all of us.
(7) He was oppressed, and He was afflicted, but He did not open His mouth. He was led as a lamb to the slaughter; and as a ewe before her shearers is dumb, so He opened not His mouth.

Gill White
September 23rd, 2012, 08:41 AM
Let's take a look at how Gill ignores the challenge to tell us what the Trinity is...

You advertise this doctrine, so that's your job not mine:

Your job is to prove to us in this thread that what you advertise is the truth.

Gill White
September 23rd, 2012, 08:52 AM
Look at this cop-out by Gill, folks!

Gill does not know what the Trinity is....but is more than ready to reject it and put the 'definition' of it right back on the one who is asking in the first place.

I asked you a straight question, and the answer was either a simple yes or no.

So, seeing as you did not give us the answer, we can only ''assume'' that you also do not understand what the ''trinity'' is either:


Quote:
A catholic priest said this: “The trinity is a wonderful mystery. No one understands it......

Gill White
September 23rd, 2012, 09:01 AM
How can one explain something that is nonexistent?:wave2:

They don't understand it, even a Catholic Priest admits they so don't understand it.


A catholic priest said this: “The trinity is a wonderful mystery. No one understands it......

So if Apple does understand it, he should go and tell the catholic priest: :cigar: