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keypurr
August 6th, 2012, 07:54 PM
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:


Who or What is this EXPRESS image of God?

1. God is a spirit, so his image would be a spirit.
2. This is God's firstborn of every creature, a creation.
3. This spirit has deity for it has the fullness of the father.
4. This spirit was with God before the creation, creation was done through this spirit.
5. This spirit is a form of God

I use the term Christ spirit to discribe this image.

What do YOU think it is?

Livelystone
August 6th, 2012, 08:29 PM
Good post!

Jesus Christ is the express image of God aka the image AND likeness of God having the same spirit and soul as God. Therefore when you see Jesus you see the Father

Man having a spirit and soul is simply made in the image of God, but man made in both the image and likeness as stated God in Ge.1;26 is the fulfillment of His plan for man

This is why Jesus is the first-fruit of many to come

sky.
August 6th, 2012, 08:39 PM
I look at it like this. Jesus is the express image of God so when He sat at His right side and looked over He saw Himself.

Pierac
August 6th, 2012, 08:47 PM
It's what we are to become at our resurrection from the dead! On the last day!

John 6:39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

Joh 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

Joh 11:24 Martha *said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day."

We shall all have the express image of God on the last day at our resurrection! Then we shall be like HIM! (Jesus) our brother... the first born from the dead!

:Poly::sherlock:
Paul

steko
August 6th, 2012, 09:07 PM
1. God is a spirit, so his image would be a spirit.

No, GOD is infinite spirit, invisible.... and the point is that the image is the visible revelation of the invisible GOD.
The 'image' is tangeable, visible, the knowable expression of the very essence of GOD.

G5481

image-χαρακτήρ
charaktḗr; gen. charaktḗros, masc. noun from charássō (n.f., see cháragma [G5480]), to carve. Occurs only in Heb_1:3 where it is translated "express image," referring to Jesus Christ. Here He is described as the charaktḗr tḗs hupostáseōs autoú (tē̄́s [G3588], the [gen. fem.]; hupostáseōs [G5287], essence [gen.]; autoú [G846], he [gen. masc.]), "the exact image of His [God's] essence" (a.t.). Whatever the divine essence is, Jesus is said to be its perfect expression. The writer of Hebrews thus sets forth a high Christology affirming the deity of Jesus Christ.-Spiros Zodhiates "Complete Word Study Dictionary"

[QUOTE]2. This is God's firstborn of every creature, a creation.

The term 'firstborn' naturally means the first one born, but was modified in GOD's election to be a title of rank.
Of Noah's sons, Japheth was the first born, but Shem is mentioned first because he carries the blessing and inheritance.
Of Abraham's sons, Ishmael was born first, but Isaac becomes the 'yachid/only' son.
Of Isaac's sons, Esau is born first, but Jacob gets the blessing and inheritance.
Of Jacob's sons, Reuben is born first, but the King will come from Judah.
Of Joseph's sons, Manassah is born first, but GOD calls Ephraim His firstborn.
In Psalms, the prophesy describes the future Messiah as GOD's firstborn by election.
The LORD Jesus Christ is the firstborn from the dead and the firstborn of the new creation. This has nothing to do with His beginning in time. HE exists eternally.



3. This spirit has deity for it has the fullness of the father.

Whatever GOD's 'substance' is, Jesus Christ is the same 'substance'.
Deity has no beginning and is uncreated.

Heb 1:3 who being the effulgence of his glory, and the very image of his substance



4. This spirit was with God before the creation, creation was done through this spirit.

Do you really not understand, that before the creation there was nothing but that which is uncreated and has no beginning.....GOD.


5. This spirit is a form of God

This Spirit is GOD!

keypurr
August 6th, 2012, 09:10 PM
Good post!

Jesus Christ is the express image of God aka the image AND likeness of God having the same spirit and soul as God. Therefore when you see Jesus you see the Father

Man having a spirit and soul is simply made in the image of God, but man made in both the image and likeness as stated God in Ge.1;26 is the fulfillment of His plan for man

This is why Jesus is the first-fruit of many to come

I think your part right but on the right track. God is a spirit, so his exact image would be a spirit. I believe that when Jesus was bapitsed this spirit was put into him. That is when Jesus became the Christ with all the power of his father.

Thank you for posting, Peace

keypurr
August 6th, 2012, 09:14 PM
I look at it like this. Jesus is the express image of God so when He sat at His right side and looked over He saw Himself.

No, there is more to it than that. God used Jesus to show who God really is like. You cannot see aspirit but you can see a man. So in this way, God put this spirit into his physical son who was sinless. This spirit is a copy of the father, so if you can see what this spirit is like, you have seen the father.

Peace

Bright Raven
August 6th, 2012, 09:15 PM
I think your part right but on the right track. God is a spirit, so his exact image would be a spirit. I believe that when Jesus was bapitsed this spirit was put into him. That is when Jesus became the Christ with all the power of his father.

Thank you for posting, Peace

Again friend let me point you to Luke 2;11

Luk 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

keypurr
August 6th, 2012, 09:20 PM
It's what we are to become at our resurrection from the dead! On the last day!

John 6:39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

Joh 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

Joh 11:24 Martha *said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day."

We shall all have the express image of God on the last day at our resurrection! Then we shall be like HIM! (Jesus) our brother... the first born from the dead!

:Poly::sherlock:
Paul

Paul, this express image was created first. God created the world THROUGH this spirit. Because man is created in the image of God is not the same as having the express image of God. Paul tells us that Christ is the image of God. I see Christ the spirit, and Jesus the flesh as two, yet combined at his baptism. I think that Jesus became the Christ then. He had to go into the wilderness for 40 days to get used of this power he was given, then Satan tested him.

The exact image of God is a created godlike creature. A form of God.

I'm glad I got your interest for no one else wishes to do deep into it with me. I hope you will disagree so we can do just that.

Peace brother

keypurr
August 6th, 2012, 09:34 PM
[QUOTE=keypurr;3171552]

1. God is a spirit, so his image would be a spirit.

No, GOD is infinite spirit, invisible.... and the point is that the image is the visible revelation of the invisible GOD.
The 'image' is tangeable, visible, the knowable expression of the very essence of GOD.

G5481

image-χαρακτήρ
charaktḗr; gen. charaktḗros, masc. noun from charássō (n.f., see cháragma [G5480]), to carve. Occurs only in Heb_1:3 where it is translated "express image," referring to Jesus Christ. Here He is described as the charaktḗr tḗs hupostáseōs autoú (tē̄́s [G3588], the [gen. fem.]; hupostáseōs [G5287], essence [gen.]; autoú [G846], he [gen. masc.]), "the exact image of His [God's] essence" (a.t.). Whatever the divine essence is, Jesus is said to be its perfect expression. The writer of Hebrews thus sets forth a high Christology affirming the deity of Jesus Christ.-Spiros Zodhiates "Complete Word Study Dictionary"

The point is God is spirit, an exact image would be a spirit. Would you agree to that? Keep in mind that an image is not what it is an image of. An image is a creation.



The term 'firstborn' naturally means the first one born, but was modified in GOD's election to be a title of rank.
Of Noah's sons, Japheth was the first born, but Shem is mentioned first because he carries the blessing and inheritance.
Of Abraham's sons, Ishmael was born first, but Isaac becomes the 'yachid/only' son.
Of Isaac's sons, Esau is born first, but Jacob gets the blessing and inheritance.
Of Jacob's sons, Reuben is born first, but the King will come from Judah.
Of Joseph's sons, Manassah is born first, but GOD calls Ephraim His firstborn.
In Psalms, the prophesy describes the future Messiah as GOD's firstborn by election.
The LORD Jesus Christ is the firstborn from the dead and the firstborn of the new creation. This has nothing to do with His beginning in time. HE exists eternally.

Yes firstborn can mean first in rank but most usage of the word means first born. In Colossians I think it means BOTH.


Whatever GOD's 'substance' is, Jesus Christ is the same 'substance'.
Deity has no beginning and is uncreated.

Heb 1:3 who being the effulgence of his glory, and the very image of his substance

Read your verse again: the very IMAGE of his substance. Again, not the same substance but the image of. God has no limits, he gave deity to his image.




Do you really not understand, that before the creation there was nothing but that which is uncreated and has no beginning.....GOD.



This Spirit is GOD!

For your consideration friend, God was alone, he created his exact image (Christ, a spirit), He had to be alone at one time, his image came as the first creation, he copied himself. Colossians say the firstborn of all creatures, that is a creation. It also says that the father was pleased that it had his fullness. Why would he tell us that?

Now think about Genesis, who are the we/us in Gen 1? I think God and his IMAGE. (Christ)

Ponder on that and see if you see why I think the way I do.

Peace

Episkopos
August 6th, 2012, 09:49 PM
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

God's image is that of perfection which was how he created the first man until sin came in to bring corruption. Christ however did no sin thus, he remained the express image of the creator, a perfect example of what we are supposed to be. That is why He is our guiding light to God the father.

keypurr
August 6th, 2012, 09:51 PM
Again friend let me point you to Luke 2;11

Luk 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

Remember that when this was written this is past tense. But it wuld not matter for Jesus being the Christ was foretold.

Act 10:38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power; how he went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him.

BR, this proves that he got his power at his Baptism. That is when Jesus was united with the Christ, in my thoughts anyway.

keypurr
August 6th, 2012, 09:58 PM
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

God's image is that of perfection which was how he created the first man until sin came in to bring corruption. Christ however did no sin thus, he remained the express image of the creator, a perfect example of what we are supposed to be. That is why He is our guiding light to God the father.

God created mankind in his image, but not express image. Fact is, God is not a man, God is spirit. But man has some of the thinking qualities of God. He is above the rest of creation.

But the express image of God is a spirit that is a created God. This was God's first creation or firstborn. God used this spirit (Christ) to create the world and everything else. Only Jesus, God's flesh son, was sinless and could hold this God like spirit.

I suggest you study the verses in the OP and see what you come up with. Jesus was a form of God, this theory fits quite well with scripture. I'm open for other suggestions as to what the verses are saying.

I forgot to say welcome to TOL.

Peace

RevTestament
August 7th, 2012, 01:42 AM
Hey, Keypurr, thought I'd drop by and visit your thread.




Do you really not understand, that before the creation there was nothing but that which is uncreated and has no beginning.....GOD.

This Spirit is GOD!Um... actually the Bible does not say this. This is a trinitarian type misconception. The Bible says that in the beginning the earth was without form, and that there were "waters" that the Lord apparently used to form the earth. Genesis 1:2. If trinitarians get such a simple thing wrong, what else do they get wrong?

Bradley D
August 7th, 2012, 02:26 AM
"...the express image of his person...(Hebrews 1:3).

In this case the writer of Hebrews is expressing Jesus' substantial quality and nature of God. Of God's spirit, but also of His character. When I see Jesus through the gospel I am seeing God. When Jesus speaks to me through His gospel it is actually God speaking to me. "Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things" (Hebrews 1:2).

Nick M
August 7th, 2012, 03:15 AM
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;



Isaiah 44:24

Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, And He who formed you from the womb: “I am the Lord, who makes all things, Who stretches out the heavens all alone, Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself;

Sucks to be you, keypurr.

Totton Linnet
August 7th, 2012, 04:00 AM
God is a Spirit, therefore invisible, Christ is the visible Person of God.....that is the precise meaning of the term "express image of God"

keypurr
August 7th, 2012, 08:31 AM
"...the express image of his person...(Hebrews 1:3).

In this case the writer of Hebrews is expressing Jesus' substantial quality and nature of God. Of God's spirit, but also of His character. When I see Jesus through the gospel I am seeing God. When Jesus speaks to me through His gospel it is actually God speaking to me. "Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things" (Hebrews 1:2).

Yes friend, God created a godlike creature, Christ, a spirit like himself. If he put this spirit in a man, man then could see what the Father is like. That is exactly as I see him doing. God spoke through his son to us.

This image needs more attention to see it more clearly. It is Christ, the express image of the Father. The father has a spiritual son who he put into his flesh son, Jesus the Christ of God.

Peace

keypurr
August 7th, 2012, 08:39 AM
Isaiah 44:24

Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, And He who formed you from the womb: “I am the Lord, who makes all things, Who stretches out the heavens all alone, Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself;

Sucks to be you, keypurr.

Nick, I know my theory is not popular, but I am not here to be popular. In the verse above, who is talking, the father or Christ?
All things from God come through Christ.

Use your wisdom to explain the verses in the OP so that I may understand them better. Surely you must have an opinion on them. I think your not a clanging symbol, you seem to think for yourself. Give me so help to see what this says.

Oh by the way, I am very happy to be me.

Peace

keypurr
August 7th, 2012, 08:44 AM
God is a Spirit, therefore invisible, Christ is the visible Person of God.....that is the precise meaning of the term "express image of God"

True, but it goes deeper Totton. God created everything with this spirit. It was with him before the world was. This is the spirit that Jesus received at his baptism. That is when he got his powers. (Acts 10:38) So God did make an imageof himself, a form of God, a creation. The OP verses open up a lot to ponder over.

Peace

Wile E. Coyote
August 7th, 2012, 08:53 AM
It's what we are to become at our resurrection from the dead! On the last day!

John 6:39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
It says that Jesus will raise "it" up at the last day. By your logic in John 1 it will NOT be persons that are raised.

You've been spanked good Paul! http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh570/badluck19/a082zf0.gif

keypurr
August 7th, 2012, 02:51 PM
It says that Jesus will raise "it" up at the last day. By your logic in John 1 it will NOT be persons that are raised.

You've been spanked good Paul! http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh570/badluck19/a082zf0.gif

I hope you guys are using a paddle otherwise your hands will be as red as your face.

Wile why do you shun away from the question in the OP?

Jacob
August 7th, 2012, 02:52 PM
Hebrews 1:3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Bright Raven
August 7th, 2012, 03:03 PM
True, but it goes deeper Totton. God created everything with this spirit. It was with him before the world was. This is the spirit that Jesus received at his baptism. That is when he got his powers. (Acts 10:38) So God did make an imageof himself, a form of God, a creation. The OP verses open up a lot to ponder over.

Peace

The Spirit that Christ received at His baptism was the Holy Spirit. That which created all things was Jesus.

keypurr
August 7th, 2012, 05:56 PM
The Spirit that Christ received at His baptism was the Holy Spirit. That which created all things was Jesus.

BR, check out Acts 10:38
Notice how it states that he received the Holy Spirit AND POWER.

The power is the power of Christ, the form of God spirit. He is the only one to ever receive that power. It confirms my thoughts friend.

keypurr
August 7th, 2012, 06:01 PM
Hebrews 1:3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Yep, and in Colossians 1 it tells you that the Father was pleased that it had his fullness, deity. So what is it saying? God created a god.

Jesus is a form of God because he is the Christ. Christ is the express image of God.

Bright Raven
August 7th, 2012, 06:05 PM
BR, check out Acts 10:38
Notice how it states that he received the Holy Spirit AND POWER.

The power is the power of Christ, the form of God spirit. He is the only one to ever receive that power. It confirms my thoughts friend.

And where does it say that the power is the power of Christ? Is that something that you have added to the text?

Jacob
August 7th, 2012, 06:05 PM
Yep, and in Colossians 1 it tells you that the Father was pleased that it had his fullness, deity. So what is it saying? God created a god.You use the words "it" and "god".
Jesus is a form of God because he is the Christ. Christ is the express image of God.I think you are saying Jesus isn't actually God.

Colossians 1:19 For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell;

Bright Raven
August 7th, 2012, 06:06 PM
You use the words "it" and "god".I think you are saying Jesus isn't actually God.

That is what he is saying.

keypurr
August 7th, 2012, 06:25 PM
And where does it say that the power is the power of Christ? Is that something that you have added to the text?

No I did not add to the text, I quoted from the NKJV.

Then I gave my opinion.

keypurr
August 7th, 2012, 06:29 PM
You use the words "it" and "god".I think you are saying Jesus isn't actually God.

Colossians 1:19 For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell;

I use IT because it is a spirit, I use god for he is a form of god not God. Philippians 2 uses the term "form of God" not God.
This is another reason why I think Christ is a creation.

Angel4Truth
August 7th, 2012, 06:30 PM
[QUOTE=keypurr;3171552]

1. God is a spirit, so his image would be a spirit.

No, GOD is infinite spirit, invisible.... and the point is that the image is the visible revelation of the invisible GOD.
The 'image' is tangeable, visible, the knowable expression of the very essence of GOD.

G5481

image-χαρακτήρ
charaktḗr; gen. charaktḗros, masc. noun from charássō (n.f., see cháragma [G5480]), to carve. Occurs only in Heb_1:3 where it is translated "express image," referring to Jesus Christ. Here He is described as the charaktḗr tḗs hupostáseōs autoú (tē̄́s [G3588], the [gen. fem.]; hupostáseōs [G5287], essence [gen.]; autoú [G846], he [gen. masc.]), "the exact image of His [God's] essence" (a.t.). Whatever the divine essence is, Jesus is said to be its perfect expression. The writer of Hebrews thus sets forth a high Christology affirming the deity of Jesus Christ.-Spiros Zodhiates "Complete Word Study Dictionary"



The term 'firstborn' naturally means the first one born, but was modified in GOD's election to be a title of rank.
Of Noah's sons, Japheth was the first born, but Shem is mentioned first because he carries the blessing and inheritance.
Of Abraham's sons, Ishmael was born first, but Isaac becomes the 'yachid/only' son.
Of Isaac's sons, Esau is born first, but Jacob gets the blessing and inheritance.
Of Jacob's sons, Reuben is born first, but the King will come from Judah.
Of Joseph's sons, Manassah is born first, but GOD calls Ephraim His firstborn.
In Psalms, the prophesy describes the future Messiah as GOD's firstborn by election.
The LORD Jesus Christ is the firstborn from the dead and the firstborn of the new creation. This has nothing to do with His beginning in time. HE exists eternally.




Whatever GOD's 'substance' is, Jesus Christ is the same 'substance'.
Deity has no beginning and is uncreated.

Heb 1:3 who being the effulgence of his glory, and the very image of his substance




Do you really not understand, that before the creation there was nothing but that which is uncreated and has no beginning.....GOD.



This Spirit is GOD!

Excellent :thumb:

Jacob
August 7th, 2012, 06:32 PM
I use IT because it is a spirit,What is a spirit?
I use god for he is a form of god not God. Philippians 2 uses the term "form of God" not God.
This is another reason why I think Christ is a creation.I use lower case god for false gods or rulers.

keypurr
August 7th, 2012, 06:38 PM
What is a spirit?I use lower case god for false gods or rulers.

God is a spirit. You can not see it. It is like the wind, you can only see the effects of it. The spirit is life, without it there is no life.

I believe in only one true God, the father. Jesus taught me that. He is the only one I use a cap G on.

Jacob
August 7th, 2012, 06:50 PM
God is a spirit. You can not see it. It is like the wind, you can only see the effects of it. The spirit is life, without it there is no life.

I believe in only one true God, the father. Jesus taught me that. He is the only one I use a cap G on.You see a difference between the Father and the Son.

I know Jesus is not another God.

keypurr
August 7th, 2012, 06:59 PM
You see a difference between the Father and the Son.

I know Jesus is not another God.

I think he is a created form of God. Jesus is a man. Christ is a spirit. Christ hold the power of God for IT is the express image of God. Jesus is God's human son, the only sinless person since Adam. The Christ was given to Jesus at his baptism. Acts 10:38

Jacob
August 7th, 2012, 07:12 PM
I think he is a created form of God. Jesus is a man. Christ is a spirit. Christ hold the power of God for IT is the express image of God. Jesus is God's human son, the only sinless person since Adam. The Christ was given to Jesus at his baptism. Acts 10:38The Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of God. I know God is Spirit, but what do we do with the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ?

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

So another question (aside) would be if the Spirit of Jesus is the same as the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of God.

Acts 2:33 "Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear.

Acts 16:7 and after they came to Mysia, they were trying to go into Bithynia, and the Spirit of Jesus did not permit them;

Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Philippians 1:19 for I know that this will turn out for my deliverance through your prayers and the provision of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,

**********

Psalm 68:18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, [for] the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell [among them].

Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

keypurr
August 7th, 2012, 07:17 PM
The Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of God. I know God is Spirit, but what do we do with the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ?

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

So another question (aside) would be if "the Spirit of Jesus" (my words) is the same as the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of God.

Acts 2:33 "Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear.

Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

**********

Psalm 68:18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, [for] the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell [among them].

Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

Friend, since one spirit is an exact copy of the other, how can you tell the difference?

Keep in mind also that the Holy Spirit (Comforter) comes from the Father through Christ to us.

All things from God come through Christ.

Jacob
August 7th, 2012, 07:34 PM
Friend, since one spirit is an exact copy of the other, how can you tell the difference?

Keep in mind also that the Holy Spirit (Comforter) comes from the Father through Christ to us.

All things from God come through Christ.John 15:26 "When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,

Also, I added a couple verses I found to my last post. Here they are.

Acts 16:7 and after they came to Mysia, they were trying to go into Bithynia, and the Spirit of Jesus did not permit them;

Philippians 1:19 for I know that this will turn out for my deliverance through your prayers and the provision of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,

Would you say the Spirit of God is not God?

Princely
August 7th, 2012, 07:43 PM
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:


Who or What is this EXPRESS image of God?

1. God is a spirit, so his image would be a spirit.
2. This is God's firstborn of every creature, a creation.
3. This spirit has deity for it has the fullness of the father.
4. This spirit was with God before the creation, creation was done through this spirit.
5. This spirit is a form of God

I use the term Christ spirit to discribe this image.

What do YOU think it is?

Since you follow Paul and not the son of man your darkness is overwhelming. Meaning you do not understand the truth, the word of the Lord. This is why all of you ask each other what God says because He does not show you His meaning. Didn't Jesus say to continue to teach as He did?

If you continue in my teaching you are truly my disciple then you shall know the truth and the truth will set you free.

Anyone who hears my teaching and puts it to use is like a wise man who builds his house on rock.

Whoever would serve me must follow me. Where I am that is where my servant will be.

I came down from heaven to do the will of him who sent me.

The reason I was born and came into the world is to testify to the truth.

I must proclaim the good news of the kingdom of God to the other cities also; for I was sent for this purpose.

Man does not live by bread alone but by every word from the mouth of God.

sky.
August 7th, 2012, 07:45 PM
I think he is a created form of God. Jesus is a man. Christ is a spirit. Christ hold the power of God for IT is the express image of God. Jesus is God's human son, the only sinless person since Adam. The Christ was given to Jesus at his baptism. Acts 10:38

This is like the belief of the Christadelphians.




"Jesus was a manifestation of the Father in man, begotten by the Spirit. He did not become the Christ until his water baptism; until then he simply had a body prepared for the divine manifestation that was to take place through him..."


Also I notice that you like to refer to some part as an "IT"


Again, like Jehovah's Witnesses, they refer to the Holy Spirit as "it". So they have no Holy Spirit to assist them in their study and interpretation of the Scriptures!

culthelp.com (http://www.culthelp.info/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=134&Itemid=8)

Christadelphians wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christadelphians)

keypurr
August 7th, 2012, 07:56 PM
John 15:26 "When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,

Also, I added a couple verses I found to my last post. Here they are.

Acts 16:7 and after they came to Mysia, they were trying to go into Bithynia, and the Spirit of Jesus did not permit them;

Philippians 1:19 for I know that this will turn out for my deliverance through your prayers and the provision of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,

Would you say the Spirit of God is not God?

I think the spirit of God is FROM God. I fail to see it as a seperate being. I have always thought this way, it just seems to make sense.

I am open for the idea of others who think in a different way.

Jacob
August 7th, 2012, 08:00 PM
I think the spirit of God is FROM God. I fail to see it as a seperate being. I have always thought this way, it just seems to make sense.

I am open for the idea of others who think in a different way.Would you say the Spirit of Jesus is from Jesus?

Do you see the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of Jesus, and the Spirit of Jesus Christ all to be the same Spirit?

keypurr
August 7th, 2012, 08:06 PM
Since you follow Paul and not the son of man your darkness is overwhelming. Meaning you do not understand the truth, the word of the Lord. This is why all of you ask each other what God says because He does not show you His meaning. Didn't Jesus say to continue to teach as He did?

If you continue in my teaching you are truly my disciple then you shall know the truth and the truth will set you free.

Anyone who hears my teaching and puts it to use is like a wise man who builds his house on rock.

Whoever would serve me must follow me. Where I am that is where my servant will be.

I came down from heaven to do the will of him who sent me.

The reason I was born and came into the world is to testify to the truth.

I must proclaim the good news of the kingdom of God to the other cities also; for I was sent for this purpose.

Man does not live by bread alone but by every word from the mouth of God.

You sound like a person with answers. First are you saying Paul was not inspired by Jesus? Should we discard all Pauls books?

I know the Lord very well friend. The topic of discussion is Hebrews 1 and Colossians 1. What is your opinion on the verses in the OP?

What is the express image of God in your mind?

Peace

Ktoyou
August 7th, 2012, 08:13 PM
I think the spirit of God is FROM God. I fail to see it as a separate being. I have always thought this way, it just seems to make sense.

I am open for the idea of others who think in a different way.

Yes, the Spirit of God IS God, the Father. think or the Father as the Creator, or creating aspect of God, the Son, the connection between man and God, the Holy Spirit as the aspect of God, which guides us; I call it Grace.

We are too old to care about the best argument, what we should care about is being right with God. Christ is the door, please enter and all your questions, you shall know, even if you cannot prove any of it.

OMEGA
August 7th, 2012, 08:17 PM
Coyote should have posted the rest of the Scriptures.

The "it" refers to all those that God the Father will give Jesus,
and Jesus will Raise that Group of People.

John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

keypurr
August 7th, 2012, 08:18 PM
Would you say the Spirit of Jesus is from Jesus?

Do you see the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of Jesus, and the Spirit of Jesus Christ all to be the same Spirit?

I'm going to say yes because now they are the same. God could not send himself, he needed a Lamb to beat Satan, so he created a copy of himself to do that. Satan is now defeated, there is no further need of seperate spirits. Keep in mind that this is just speculation. So yes, I see them as pretty much the same spirit.

keypurr
August 7th, 2012, 08:21 PM
This is like the belief of the Christadelphians.






Also I notice that you like to refer to some part as an "IT"



culthelp.com (http://www.culthelp.info/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=134&Itemid=8)

Christadelphians wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christadelphians)

I am not sure what they believe friend.

When I refer to a spirits I consider them ITs.
We call God the Father as a way to relate to him, but he is spirit.

Peace

keypurr
August 7th, 2012, 08:30 PM
Yes, the Spirit of God IS God, the Father. think or the Father as the Creator, or creating aspect of God, the Son, the connection between man and God, the Holy Spirit as the aspect of God, which guides us; I call it Grace.

We are too old to care about the best argument, what we should care about is being right with God. Christ is the door, please enter and all your questions, you shall know, even if you cannot prove any of it.

First lets get this stright, we are not to old. We are just mature. We are still young at heart.

Now, which came first the chichen or the egg!

Did the spirit create the Father, or the Father create the spirit?

Now there is a good thread to start.

True, nothing can be proved, but our line of reason must be crossed to accept the faith.

K, your a pretty smart chick

Jacob
August 7th, 2012, 08:51 PM
I'm going to say yes because now they are the same. God could not send himself, he needed a Lamb to beat Satan, so he created a copy of himself to do that. Satan is now defeated, there is no further need of seperate spirits. Keep in mind that this is just speculation. So yes, I see them as pretty much the same spirit.Does the fact that there is a Spirit of Christ and a Spirit of Jesus Christ lead you to believe that there is not a Spirit of Spirit or a Spirit of Jesus Spirit (I'm saying Christ does not mean Spirit)?

keypurr
August 7th, 2012, 09:51 PM
Does the fact that there is a Spirit of Christ and a Spirit of Jesus Christ lead you to believe that there is not a Spirit of Spirit or a Spirit of Jesus Spirit (I'm saying Christ does not mean Spirit)?

The Christ Spirit is in Jesus so they are the same spirit.

2Co 4:4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

I see Christ as a spirit.

Jesus is the human that was given that spirit. This Christ spirit has godlike powers friend, it is a form of God. It was with God before the world was created.

Heb 10:5 Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said, "Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired, but a body you have prepared for me;

Christ (the spirit) was IN Jesus. Jesus is God's son, sinless, the father trusted Jesus not to abuse the power he gave him. Jesus went to the cross for us AND HIS FATHER.

Princely
August 7th, 2012, 09:59 PM
You sound like a person with answers. First are you saying Paul was not inspired by Jesus? Should we discard all Pauls books?

I know the Lord very well friend. The topic of discussion is Hebrews 1 and Colossians 1. What is your opinion on the verses in the OP?

What is the express image of God in your mind?

Peace

Yes, Discard all of the epistles. They cannot help but only harm.

If you want to know the secrets of the kingdom of God do what is right and just and your prayers will be heard.

"Do what is right and just says the Lord"

"You've been told Oh man, what is good and what the Lord requires of you, only to do what is righteous love goodness and walk humbly with your God."

The Lord is righteous and He loves righteous works.

The Lord is righteous in all His ways and holy in all His works.

"The Lord will be your light (Israel) your God shall be your glory."

Walk in the light once you have it or darkness will come over you.

Jacob
August 7th, 2012, 10:08 PM
The Christ Spirit is in Jesus so they are the same spirit.

2Co 4:4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

I see Christ as a spirit.

Jesus is the human that was given that spirit. This Christ spirit has godlike powers friend, it is a form of God. It was with God before the world was created.

Heb 10:5 Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said, "Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired, but a body you have prepared for me;

Christ (the spirit) was IN Jesus. Jesus is God's son, sinless, the father trusted Jesus not to abuse the power he gave him. Jesus went to the cross for us AND HIS FATHER.You are connecting "Christ" and "came" in the wrong way. This is not saying a spirit called Christ came and indwelt a body...

I have shown you that there is a Spirit of Jesus Christ spoken of in scripture. So it is not that Christ is a Spirit, but that there is a Spirit of Christ.

Jacob
August 7th, 2012, 10:12 PM
Hebrews 10:10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

keypurr
August 7th, 2012, 10:27 PM
You are connecting "Christ" and "came" in the wrong way. This is not saying a spirit called Christ came and indwelt a body...

I have shown you that there is a Spirit of Jesus Christ spoken of in scripture. So it is not that Christ is a Spirit, but that there is a Spirit of Christ.

Do you think that means that:

1 Christ is a spirit?

2 Christ gives out a spirit?

I don't think I understand what your getting at.

Christ is more than Jesus. Christ is a creator. IT is not a man.
But IT was put in a man. So the term Spirit of Christ could mean Christ the spirit OR the teachings of that spirit.

You ask great questions my friend. I imagine we would have to look at each verse to determine what it is.

keypurr
August 7th, 2012, 10:30 PM
Hebrews 10:10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

AMEN, The body (Jesus) was the sacrifice. The Lamb of God.

Jacob
August 7th, 2012, 10:31 PM
Do you think that means that:

1 Christ is a spirit?

2 Christ gives out a spirit?

I don't think I understand what your getting at.

Christ is more than Jesus. Christ is a creator. IT is not a man.
But IT was put in a man. So the term Spirit of Christ could mean Christ the spirit OR the teachings of that spirit.

You ask great questions my friend. I imagine we would have to look at each verse to determine what it is.I'm focusing on what the Spirit is OF. Not saying Christ means spirit or Christ imparts a spirit.

Did Jesus have the Spirit of God?

Is Jesus' Spirit the Spirit of God?

Who raised Jesus from the dead?

Who lives in us?

Etc...

Jacob
August 7th, 2012, 10:32 PM
AMEN, The body (Jesus) was the sacrifice. The Lamb of God.I would say the body of Jesus Christ (or Jesus or Christ) was offered for us, He being the lamb of God.

Bright Raven
August 7th, 2012, 10:36 PM
Do you think that means that:

1 Christ is a spirit?

2 Christ gives out a spirit?

I don't think I understand what your getting at.

Christ is more than Jesus. Christ is a creator. IT is not a man.
But IT was put in a man. So the term Spirit of Christ could mean Christ the spirit OR the teachings of that spirit.

You ask great questions my friend. I imagine we would have to look at each verse to determine what it is.

The Christ is not and it. This, in and of itself, shows that you do not comprehend that Jesus and the Christ are one in the same.

Luke 2:11
For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

Jesus is the Christ and identified as such 19 times in the Blue Letter Bible NKJV.

keypurr
August 7th, 2012, 10:44 PM
The Christ is not and it. This, in and of itself, shows that you do not comprehend that Jesus and the Christ are one in the same.

Luke 2:11
For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

Jesus is the Christ and identified as such 19 times in the Blue Letter Bible NKJV.

BR, Christ exsisted a long time before Jesus did, it is an IT, a spirIT.

You are having a problem with the two natures of Jesus.
He was a MAN with Christ IN him.

Jesus is the Christ only because God put Christ IN him.

God anointed Jesus with the Christ. (Acts 10:38) The power is Christ, the express image of God

Bright Raven
August 7th, 2012, 10:48 PM
BR, Christ exsisted a long time before Jesus did, it is an IT, a spirIT.

You are having a problem with the two natures of Jesus.
He was a MAN with Christ IN him.

Jesus is the Christ only because God put Christ IN him.

God anointed Jesus with the Christ. (Acts 10:38) The power is Christ, the express image of God

Friend, you are the one who has the problem with two natures, God and man. Who believes what you believe except you? Need I say more. What if you are wrong. Have you weighed the consequences.

Jacob
August 7th, 2012, 10:54 PM
BR, Christ exsisted a long time before Jesus did, it is an IT, a spirIT.

You are having a problem with the two natures of Jesus.
He was a MAN with Christ IN him.

Jesus is the Christ only because God put Christ IN him.

God anointed Jesus with the Christ. (Acts 10:38) The power is Christ, the express image of GodYou are saying Christ means Holy Spirit, I believe. But Jesus Christ had the Holy Spirit.

Was Jesus born, the Christ?

Jacob
August 7th, 2012, 11:00 PM
Some people believe they are the Christ or a Christ because they believe they have the Holy Spirit and have thereby been anointed by God.

Jesus did not become the Messiah when He was baptized and the Spirit of God lighted upon Him like a dove.

Jesus was born the Messiah, in fulfillment of prophecy.

steko
August 7th, 2012, 11:01 PM
BR, Christ exsisted a long time before Jesus did, it is an IT, a spirIT.

You are having a problem with the two natures of Jesus.
He was a MAN with Christ IN him.

Jesus is the Christ only because God put Christ IN him.

God anointed Jesus with the Christ. (Acts 10:38) The power is Christ, the express image of God

Jesus of Nazareth is the anointed one, the Messiah, the Christ.
He was the Messiah/Christ from the womb.
He was GOD the WORD, from eternity.

Mat 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

Mat 2:3 When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him.
Mat 2:4 And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born.Luk 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

Luk 2:25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.
Luk 2:26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.
Luk 2:27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law,
Luk 2:28 Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said,
Luk 2:29 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:
Luk 2:30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,


The LORD Jesus Messiah did not become 'the Christ/Messiah' at His baptism, but was filled with the Spirit to begin His ministry to Israel.

keypurr
August 7th, 2012, 11:02 PM
You are saying Christ means Holy Spirit, I believe. But Jesus Christ had the Holy Spirit.

Was Jesus born, the Christ?

However you wish to look at it, he got the power of Christ at his baptism. He was predestioned for that.

keypurr
August 7th, 2012, 11:09 PM
Jesus of Nazareth is the anointed one, the Messiah, the Christ.
He was the Messiah/Christ from the womb.
He was GOD the WORD, from eternity.

Mat 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

Mat 2:3 When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him.
Mat 2:4 And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born.Luk 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

Luk 2:25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.
Luk 2:26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.
Luk 2:27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law,
Luk 2:28 Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said,
Luk 2:29 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:
Luk 2:30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,


The LORD Jesus Messiah did not become 'the Christ/Messiah' at His baptism, but was filled with the Spirit to begin His ministry to Israel.

You and BR are right I guess, but he did not receive that image spirit until the was Baptised. I should not assume but I must have here. Or the writers were talking in past tense as it was written years later. We know he did not have the wisdom as a child.

Acts 10:38 says he got his power at his baptism, so I will not argue when it would be safe to call him Christ as he was predestioned for it.

This should make BR smile a little.

keypurr
August 7th, 2012, 11:12 PM
Some people believe they are the Christ or a Christ because they believe they have the Holy Spirit and have thereby been anointed by God.

Jesus did not become the Messiah when He was baptized and the Spirit of God lighted upon Him like a dove.

Jesus was born the Messiah, in fulfillment of prophecy.

Christ, Messiah means anointed of God=Baptism of the spirit.

Bright Raven
August 7th, 2012, 11:14 PM
However you wish to look at it, he got the power of Christ at his baptism. He was predestioned for that.

That is untrue. Look at the Scripture!!!! He was and is Christ.
He received the power of the Holy Spirit!!!
Luke 2:11
For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

Totton Linnet
August 8th, 2012, 04:35 AM
True, but it goes deeper Totton. God created everything with this spirit. It was with him before the world was. This is the spirit that Jesus received at his baptism. That is when he got his powers. (Acts 10:38) So God did make an imageof himself, a form of God, a creation. The OP verses open up a lot to ponder over.

Peace

You admit then that Christ [being the Creator of all things visible and invisible] is God.

Christ was concieved in the virgin's womb by the Holy Spirit, His wisdom is shown in Luke to be miraculous before His baptism.

You don't ponder you disbelieve. The purpose you had in posting this thread is to deny that the Logos is God.

Lazy afternoon
August 8th, 2012, 04:49 AM
You admit then that Christ [being the Creator of all things visible and invisible] is God.

Christ was concieved in the virgin's womb by the Holy Spirit, His wisdom is shown in Luke to be miraculous before His baptism.

You don't ponder you disbelieve. The purpose you had in posting this thread is to deny that the Logos is God.

No.

Jesus is the logos made flesh..

No flesh-no Jesus.

You believe the creator of all things was born through Mary and the creator of all things died.

You believe gobblegook.

but for all that you will not be saved or go to hell based on it as you think others will.

When you and others think that determines salvation then I know you do not know what is important to God. You only think you do.

LA

Read
August 8th, 2012, 07:40 AM
What is the express image of God?

Thankyou for introducing this thread Keypurr. I hope it leads us all into a better understanding of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I hope to convince you that the phrase "the express image of his person" (KJV), is spoken of Jesus after his resurrection when he entered "into his glory" (Luke 24:26).

Now Keypurr you say: " the express image of God is a spirit that is a created God. This was God's first creation or firstborn. God used this spirit (Christ) to create the world and everything else."

You have therefore related Hebrews 1:3 to a preexistence of Christ.

However, in my opinion there is no intimation in Hebrews 1:1-3 that the author is referring to a time before "the birth of Jesus Christ" (Mt.1:18). In this view I am supported by Karl-Josef Kuschel on page 356 of his 1992 book "Born Before All Time?" where he states in Hebrews 1:1-3 that "the author is thinking primarily of the exalted Christ." Here are the three verses:

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Note that the phrase in verse 2 "in these last days" is undeniably a reference to a time "after his resurrection" (Mt.27:53) and that it is after the resurrection that he "sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high" and is now "upholding all things by the word of his power."

It was after his resurrection that Jesus was given "all power...in heaven and in earth" (Mt.28:18).

"The brightness of his glory and the express image of his person" (Heb.1:3) is likewise related to the time when Jesus "sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high."

Read

keypurr
August 8th, 2012, 08:19 AM
You admit then that Christ [being the Creator of all things visible and invisible] is God.

Christ was concieved in the virgin's womb by the Holy Spirit, His wisdom is shown in Luke to be miraculous before His baptism.

You don't ponder you disbelieve. The purpose you had in posting this thread is to deny that the Logos is God.

I see the Christ spirit as a form of God for it is the express image of the Father.

Jesus had to grow in wisdom like all children he did not have it at birth.

No Totton, I ponder everything.

Example, what is logos?
logos can be defined in a few ways, what is the intent in John 1?

I envy folks who can just accept everything they are told. I can't do that. Sometimes I may question to much but that is my nature. I really am not a bad person Tot.

Jacob
August 8th, 2012, 11:58 AM
Christ, Messiah means anointed of God=Baptism of the spirit.Was Jesus anointed of God before His baptism?

Jacob
August 8th, 2012, 11:59 AM
However you wish to look at it, he got the power of Christ at his baptism. He was predestioned for that.It sounds like you are saying Jesus is not the original and only Messiah.

keypurr
August 8th, 2012, 12:44 PM
What is the express image of God?

Thankyou for introducing this thread Keypurr. I hope it leads us all into a better understanding of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Your welcome friend, I started this topic for I find it amazing. It was many years of study before realized this.


I hope to convince you that the phrase "the express image of his person" (KJV), is spoken of Jesus after his resurrection when he entered "into his glory" (Luke 24:26).

I am open for your thoughts.


Now Keypurr you say: " the express image of God is a spirit that is a created God. This was God's first creation or firstborn. God used this spirit (Christ) to create the world and everything else."

You have therefore related Hebrews 1:3 to a preexistence of Christ.

You understand me.


However, in my opinion there is no intimation in Hebrews 1:1-3 that the author is referring to a time before "the birth of Jesus Christ" (Mt.1:18). In this view I am supported by Karl-Josef Kuschel on page 356 of his 1992 book "Born Before All Time?" where he states in Hebrews 1:1-3 that "the author is thinking primarily of the exalted Christ." Here are the three verses:

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Note that the phrase in verse 2 "in these last days" is undeniably a reference to a time "after his resurrection" (Mt.27:53) and that it is after the resurrection that he "sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high" and is now "upholding all things by the word of his power."

It was after his resurrection that Jesus was given "all power...in heaven and in earth" (Mt.28:18).

I disagree with that. For this express image of God was with God BEFORE the creation. So it is relating to the power God gave him then, not after he was raised.

I see Jesus and Christ as two beings. One is the human body of God's son, that is Jesus. The other is Christ, the spiritual son who God used to create the world. God put this Christ spirit in Jesus, that gave him power and wisdom to do his Father's fathers work. Jesus talks about the glory he had BEFORE the world was. But Jesus was only 33 years old so i was the Christ talking through him.


"The brightness of his glory and the express image of his person" (Heb.1:3) is likewise related to the time when Jesus "sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high."

Read

Amen, But he had that brightness before creation, ity was restored to him after he paid the price for our sins.

Peace friend, hope to hear more from you.

keypurr
August 8th, 2012, 12:47 PM
Was Jesus anointed of God before His baptism?

I don't think so. Rabbi's became Rabbi's at age 30.

Wile E. Coyote
August 8th, 2012, 12:48 PM
Friend, you are the one who has the problem with two natures, God and man. Who believes what you believe except you? Need I say more. What if you are wrong. Have you weighed the consequences.
Keypurr's doctrine is confusing. It appears as if he is saying that Christ is God in Jesus. I can make no sense of it.

keypurr
August 8th, 2012, 12:56 PM
You are saying Christ means Holy Spirit, I believe. But Jesus Christ had the Holy Spirit.

Was Jesus born, the Christ?

My terms may not be correct but I call the express image of God the Christ spirit. God used this spirit to create everything. This, I believe, is not the Holy Spirit for is is the image of God not God himself. If the father can share his HS I would assume Christ could also. They would be identical spirits though, how would one tell which is which?

I think Jesus had much more that the spirit we share with God. We would not be trusted with the power he had been given. He is a form of God.

Grosnick Marowbe
August 8th, 2012, 01:05 PM
Keypurr believes that Christ is only a, "created being" and not God the Son!
He claims he's learned this, among other things over a period of many year's
study of the Scriptures! There's a fellow in California named Harold Camping(91 year's old) who spent many years on the radio teaching the Bible. He also spent the majority of his life studying the Bible and came to the "faulty" conclusion that Christ would be returning to earth on May 21, 2011; the rapture would occur and there would be a massive worldwide earthquake. He claimed
there was "no doubt" this would happen according to Scripture (as interpreted by Camping) May 21st came, and nothing happened, so Camping recalculated and decided that it would occur on, "October 21st." Of course, nothing happened then either.
Like Camping, "keypurr" stands by his many years of studying the Scriptures.
Keypurr claims Jesus is merely a "created being" and not, God the Son. I say that keypurr ought to study a bit longer so he can eventually come across the TRUTH!!

keypurr
August 8th, 2012, 01:05 PM
Keypurr's doctrine is confusing. It appears as if he is saying that Christ is God in Jesus. I can make no sense of it.

What part do you not understand?

Jesus was a man. Yes? No?

God was IN Jesus. Yes? No?

God was IN Jesus by way of Christ. Yes? No?

Christ is a form of God. Yes? No?

Jesus died. Yes? No?

tomlapalm
August 8th, 2012, 01:10 PM
yall can't see the forest for the trees, in the definition for he word "the express image" is from charaktēr as you say , but look at the definition and use for rhe word and the meaning will be evident.

it is an instrument used for engraving or stamping a mark.
when form can be impressed on metal, forming depressions, but our coins that have the image higher than parts are stamped to raise the image on the coin.

Everycoin would look alike with a figure of the expressed imaged as compared to an impressed image.

The Son is exactly as the Father

Jacob
August 8th, 2012, 01:14 PM
I don't think so. Rabbi's became Rabbi's at age 30.Was Jesus the Messiah when He was born?

Could just anyone grow up to the age of 30 and then become the Messiah, in your view?

Jacob
August 8th, 2012, 01:18 PM
My terms may not be correct but I call the express image of God the Christ spirit. God used this spirit to create everything. This, I believe, is not the Holy Spirit for is is the image of God not God himself. If the father can share his HS I would assume Christ could also. They would be identical spirits though, how would one tell which is which?

I think Jesus had much more that the spirit we share with God. We would not be trusted with the power he had been given. He is a form of God.It sounds like you are saying :help: that Jesus had more of "the Christ spirit" even than we do. That sounds heretical, if it is what you are saying.

keypurr
August 8th, 2012, 01:21 PM
Keypurr believes that Christ is only a, "created being" and not God the Son!
He claims he's learned this, among other things over a period of many year's
study of the Scriptures! There's a fellow in California named Harold Camping(91 year's old) who spent many years on the radio teaching the Bible. He also spent the majority of his life studying the Bible and came to the "faulty" conclusion that Christ would be returning to earth on May 21, 2011; the rapture would occur and there would be a massive worldwide earthquake. He claimed
there was "no doubt" this would happen according to Scripture (as interpreted by Camping) May 21st came, and nothing happened, so Camping recalculated and decided that it would occur on, "October 21st." Of course, nothing happened then either.
Like Camping, "keypurr" stands by his many years of studying the Scriptures.
Keypurr claims Jesus is merely a "created being" and not, God the Son. I say that keypurr ought to study a bit longer so he can eventually come across the TRUTH!!

Certainly a person with your vast knowledge can enlighten me before it is to late. Bring your truth to my table that I may digest it and see if agrees with my digestive system.

Do I need the Salt or Ketchup for your meal? Show me your revelations of God, share with the world so we will all know.

The created son of God is above all creation friend. I believe that only the father is uncreated. Nothing, of course, can be proven, we must understand enough to accept what we can not prove. So I do not expect perfection from you but tell me anyway, why YOU do not think Christ is a creation.

Peace GM

keypurr
August 8th, 2012, 01:26 PM
It sounds like you are saying :help: that Jesus had more of "the Christ spirit" even than we do. That sounds heretical, if it is what you are saying.

Well, I can't walk on Water, can you?
Did you created the world?

The Christ spirit did. That spirit was with God before the world was.

Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

No, I was not given this spirit. This spirit is godlike.

keypurr
August 8th, 2012, 01:44 PM
The Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of God. I know God is Spirit, but what do we do with the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ?

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

So another question (aside) would be if the Spirit of Jesus is the same as the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of God.

Acts 2:33 "Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear.

Acts 16:7 and after they came to Mysia, they were trying to go into Bithynia, and the Spirit of Jesus did not permit them;

Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Philippians 1:19 for I know that this will turn out for my deliverance through your prayers and the provision of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,

**********

Psalm 68:18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, [for] the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell [among them].

Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

Jacob
August 8th, 2012, 02:02 PM
Well, I can't walk on Water, can you?
Did you created the world?

The Christ spirit did. That spirit was with God before the world was.

Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

No, I was not given this spirit. This spirit is godlike.Believers in Christ, if they have been baptized by the Spirit of God by faith and the working of God, have the Holy Spirit and are anointed (but they are not (Christ or) Jesus Christ).

keypurr
August 8th, 2012, 04:05 PM
Believers in Christ, if they have been baptized by the Spirit of God by faith and the working of God, have the Holy Spirit and are anointed (but they are not (Christ or) Jesus Christ).

True, the Christ spirit is the express image of God was told in Hebrews 1. That what I see. This is a copy of the Father with his fullness. It is a form of God friend. It is much more than the HS.

Only one man could ever be given that spirit.

Jacob
August 8th, 2012, 06:43 PM
True, the Christ spirit is the express image of God was told in Hebrews 1. That what I see. This is a copy of the Father with his fullness. It is a form of God friend. It is much more than the HS.

Only one man could ever be given that spirit.Do you mean the Holy Spirit? The term you are saying is "the Christ spirit". Is that your term or someone else's? I don't see it in scripture.

I do see that Christians are anointed with the Spirit of God though.

1 John 2:20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know.

keypurr
August 8th, 2012, 07:07 PM
Do you mean the Holy Spirit? The term you are saying is "the Christ spirit". Is that your term or someone else's? I don't see it in scripture.

I do see that Christians are anointed with the Spirit of God though.

1 John 2:20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know.

No my friend. The express image of God is a spirit. Hebrews 1

Christ is the express image of God, with that came wisdom and power for that spirit is a form of God. God created another godlike spirit like himself. That is what Christ is. Now this Christ spirit was IN Jesus. It spoke through Jesus. When Jesus told of the glory he had before the world was created it was Christ speaking through him.

Jacob
August 8th, 2012, 07:19 PM
No my friend. The express image of God is a spirit. Hebrews 1 The word "Christ" is not in Hebrews 1 (KJV). Neither is the word "spirit" except "spirits" in verse 14 but that is not talking about the Son of God.
Christ is the express image of God, with that came wisdom and power for that spirit is a form of God. God created another godlike spirit like himself. That is what Christ is. Now this Christ spirit was IN Jesus. It spoke through Jesus. When Jesus told of the glory he had before the world was created it was Christ speaking through him.I believe the Son of God is the express image of God. Not a spirit or a Christ spirit (Hebrews 1). Do you believe the Spirit of God is the Holy Spirit?

We have talked about the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Jesus, the Spirit of Christ, and the Spirit of Jesus Christ, and you say they are all the same. So I don't understand why you are "inventing" or copying someone else, about a "Christ spirit".

I believe you are trying to talk about something people call the Incarnation (that Jesus preexisted in some other form, including with God and even as God before the world began), something I don't understand enough about to speak with any real authority/credibility right now.

Bright Raven
August 8th, 2012, 07:21 PM
No my friend. The express image of God is a spirit. Hebrews 1

Christ is the express image of God, with that came wisdom and power for that spirit is a form of God. God created another godlike spirit like himself. That is what Christ is. Now this Christ spirit was IN Jesus. It spoke through Jesus. When Jesus told of the glory he had before the world was created it was Christ speaking through him.

We have the spirit of Christ in us (Colossians 1:27). Does that make me the express image of God?

Jacob
August 8th, 2012, 07:29 PM
We have the spirit of Christ in us (Colossians 1:27). Does that make me the express image of God?The verse you mention may be or involve that we live like Christ. What is in Christ we see in other Christians. The love of Christ is contagious. Etc... (my current view).

keypurr
August 8th, 2012, 10:04 PM
The word "Christ" is not in Hebrews 1 (KJV). Neither is the word "spirit" except "spirits" in verse 14 but that is not talking about the Son of God.I believe the Son of God is the express image of God. Not a spirit or a Christ spirit (Hebrews 1). Do you believe the Spirit of God is the Holy Spirit?

We have talked about the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Jesus, the Spirit of Christ, and the Spirit of Jesus Christ, and you say they are all the same. So I don't understand why you are "inventing" or copying someone else, about a "Christ spirit".

I believe you are trying to talk about something people call the Incarnation (that Jesus preexisted in some other form, including with God and even as God before the world began), something I don't understand enough about to speak with any real authority/credibility right now.

I am still learning about this to friend, but lets look at it in Hebrews:

Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

This express image is another God. And if God is a spirit, this has to be a spirit. I see it as the Christ spirit because it has deity and God used it to create the world.

Lets compare this to Colossians 1:

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

NOTE, he is the image of God and he is firstborn. I see this as God's first creation. An image is a creation, first born is both oldest child and highest in rank.

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

He created everything for God

Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

God was pleased that this spirit had his fullness (Deity, it is a created God)

2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Totton Linnet
August 9th, 2012, 04:15 AM
No.

Jesus is the logos made flesh..

No flesh-no Jesus.

You believe the creator of all things was born through Mary and the creator of all things died.

You believe gobblegook.

but for all that you will not be saved or go to hell based on it as you think others will.

When you and others think that determines salvation then I know you do not know what is important to God. You only think you do.

LA

Yes but no flesh does not mean no Logos, before He became flesh He was with God and He was God.

My salvation is an every day experience and rejoicing.

Totton Linnet
August 9th, 2012, 04:23 AM
I see the Christ spirit as a form of God for it is the express image of the Father.

Jesus had to grow in wisdom like all children he did not have it at birth.

No Totton, I ponder everything.

Example, what is logos?
logos can be defined in a few ways, what is the intent in John 1?

I envy folks who can just accept everything they are told. I can't do that. Sometimes I may question to much but that is my nature. I really am not a bad person Tot.

*
We simply accept what we are told because of Who told us, you quibble and quarrel with God. The Logos was God.

He was not a form of God He was in the form of God, if your interpretation were true then He would have only have been a form of man for it says He took the form of a servant...

did YOU take the form? no you didn't have any say.

That's the difference betwixt you and Christ.

Totton Linnet
August 9th, 2012, 04:25 AM
It sounds like you are saying Jesus is not the original and only Messiah.

He is syaing what he always says that we ought not worship Christ as God.

Totton Linnet
August 9th, 2012, 04:28 AM
My terms may not be correct but I call the express image of God the Christ spirit. God used this spirit to create everything. This, I believe, is not the Holy Spirit for is is the image of God not God himself. If the father can share his HS I would assume Christ could also. They would be identical spirits though, how would one tell which is which?

I think Jesus had much more that the spirit we share with God. We would not be trusted with the power he had been given. He is a form of God.

*
You is doting keypurr

Spirit has not form or image, so here you are arrived at the opposite of what the scripture declares.

Totton Linnet
August 9th, 2012, 04:29 AM
Keypurr believes that Christ is only a, "created being" and not God the Son!
He claims he's learned this, among other things over a period of many year's
study of the Scriptures! There's a fellow in California named Harold Camping(91 year's old) who spent many years on the radio teaching the Bible. He also spent the majority of his life studying the Bible and came to the "faulty" conclusion that Christ would be returning to earth on May 21, 2011; the rapture would occur and there would be a massive worldwide earthquake. He claimed
there was "no doubt" this would happen according to Scripture (as interpreted by Camping) May 21st came, and nothing happened, so Camping recalculated and decided that it would occur on, "October 21st." Of course, nothing happened then either.
Like Camping, "keypurr" stands by his many years of studying the Scriptures.
Keypurr claims Jesus is merely a "created being" and not, God the Son. I say that keypurr ought to study a bit longer so he can eventually come across the TRUTH!!

*
He is ever learning but never able to arrive at the truth....it is very sad.

Totton Linnet
August 9th, 2012, 04:35 AM
Certainly a person with your vast knowledge can enlighten me before it is to late. Bring your truth to my table that I may digest it and see if agrees with my digestive system.

Do I need the Salt or Ketchup for your meal? Show me your revelations of God, share with the world so we will all know.

The created son of God is above all creation friend. I believe that only the father is uncreated. Nothing, of course, can be proven, we must understand enough to accept what we can not prove. So I do not expect perfection from you but tell me anyway, why YOU do not think Christ is a creation.

Peace GM

*
Nothing can be proven eh?

So after all this time you admit that you do not worship the Father as the one true God....those of us who believe the word knew it for know one knows the Father or has at any time seen His form....the Son who is in the bosom of the Father has revealed Him.

God can only be known through Christ.

I see the ol' "friend" malarky is slipping away and you are becoming your usual angry self.

Read
August 9th, 2012, 05:11 AM
Thankyou Keypurr for welcoming me to your thread and for saying that: "I am open for your thoughts."

Firstly let me say that you "walk in the truth" (3 Jn.1:3) saying: "I believe that only the Father is uncreated." For Romans 11:33-36 affirms of God that "all things" are "of him." "O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God!....For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen."

You say that: "Christ is a creation." Amen, you are a faithful and true witness, affirming that Jesus is: "the beginning of the creation of God" (Rev.3:14).

Now the question of your thread is: "What is the express image of God?" This English phrase "express image" is translated from the Greek CHARAKTER and the only New Testament use of the word is in Hebrews 1:3.

CHARAKTER has been variously translated as "the express image of his person" (KJV), "the exact representation of His being" (Weymouth), "the Emblem of His assumption"(Concordant), to be "stamped with God's own character" (Moffatt), "an exact Impress of his SUBSTANCE" (Diaglott) and "the exact imprint of his nature"(ESV).

However whatsoever translation you prefer (and you have chosen "the express image of God"), you must concede that the expression is limited to one scene only - and that is in the historical setting of Hebrews Chapter 1.

Now since the question of your thread has to do specifically with the unique word CHARAKTER in the first chapter of Hebrews, I must insist that we restrict our argument to the immediate context to which the expression is confined. For the truth is that the word CHARAKTER is not used anywhere else in the whole NT.

It is of vital importance to carefully look at the phrase "the express image of his person" within the context of its singular use. To this end I will use a different translation of the passage, that we may look with fresh eyes at Hebrews Chapter one - the 1903 New Testament in Modern Speech by Richard Francis Weymouth where our phrase in verse 3 is translated "the exact representation of His being."

Here now are the first four verses of Hebrews:
v.1 "God, who in ancient days spoke to our forefathers in many distinct messages and by various methods through the Prophets,
v.2 has at the end of these days spoken to us through a Son, who is the pre-destined Lord of the universe, and through whom He made the Ages.
v.3 He brightly reflects God's glory and is the exact representation of His being, and upholds the universe by His all-powerful word. After securing man's purification from sin He took His seat at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
v.4 having become as far superior to the angels as the Name He possesses by inheritance is more excellent than theirs" (Heb.1:1-4).

At this point I remind you of your declaration that: "I am open for your thoughts." With this in mind I implore you not to try to win an argument with me in support of your own Christology, but rather seek the truth about the phrase we are examining together.

Now read again a summary of the answer I gave to your question "What is the express image of God?"

It was that "The brightness of his glory and the express image of his person is related to the time when Jesus sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high."

To which you objected: "Amen, But he had that brightness before creation, it was restored to him after he paid the price for our sins."

Now using Weymouth's translation of Hebrews 1:1-4 and resorting to no other scripture whatsoever (remembering that the use of CHARAKTER is unique), I want you to try and convince me and the other readers of your thread, that the phrase the exact representation of His being, refers to a time "before creation."

Read!

dave3712
August 9th, 2012, 07:33 AM
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:


Who or What is this EXPRESS image of God?

1. God is a spirit, so his image would be a spirit.
2. This is God's firstborn of every creature, a creation.
3. This spirit has deity for it has the fullness of the father.
4. This spirit was with God before the creation, creation was done through this spirit.
5. This spirit is a form of God

I use the term Christ spirit to discribe this image.

What do YOU think it is?

TRUTH.

Christ told you, "Iam the Truth."

Truth is an ideal which men can model inside their spirit-like mind.
Truth is the image of the invisible Reality we discern by making sense from the data of our sensory inputs.


Man HAS managed to form a mental IMAGE of "Father Nature" by understanding of His Laws and creation.



God is all there is, i.e.; Reality itself... the whole external existence beyond our mind is the almighty God to which all life must bow:
http://kofh2u.tripod.com/genesispic/Genesis%20flood%20pics/thinkingimages.jpg



...Truth, inside our head, is the Holy Spirit, the image of God, is present inside our mind when our thinking correctly images the TRUTH, or the picture of Reality inside our mind.

dave3712
August 9th, 2012, 07:48 AM
The word "Christ" is not in Hebrews 1 (KJV). Neither is the word "spirit" except "spirits" in verse 14 but that is not talking about the Son of God.I believe the Son of God is the express image of God. Not a spirit or a Christ spirit (Hebrews 1). Do you believe the Spirit of God is the Holy Spirit?

No and yes.

We think things which are called "thoughts."
Thoughts are intangible, weightless, vaporous entities which are what spirit means.
There are thougts that are sane, healthy, and correspond with the real world.

These are holy or as that word means, "separated,"... i.e.; from the lies and fantasies men can and do replace the Truth with.

The "spirit of God" is that whole network we try to understand as The Natural Laws that form the ever unfolding Reality which is almighty God.

The difficulty in separatingthese three concepts from one another is the foundation for Trinity, as far as men are concerned.
Man can not tell Truth from Reality, because man uses that Natural Laws he conceives to guide his understanding of the Data in-coming from his senses.

When man constructs the actual IMAGE in his own head, one that corrrsponds one-to-one with what is the Reality, external to himself, he envisions God thru that intermediator, Truth.

At no time can men tell Truth from Reality becaus they utilize the one to imagine the other.

This expalins how Christ, meaning Truth, creates all things andwithout Truth is there nothing created in reality.

Jacob
August 9th, 2012, 12:51 PM
I am still learning about this to friend, but lets look at it in Hebrews:

This express image is another God. And if God is a spirit, this has to be a spirit. I see it as the Christ spirit because it has deity and God used it to create the world.You are creating another God, another spirit, and to cause yourself to continue thinking of a Christ spirit, so that there is a difference between Jesus and Christ. That is how I am seeing what you are doing.

If you are learning about this, does that mean you know what you are talking about from some other source, or that you are still unsure about what you are saying yourself?

Jacob
August 9th, 2012, 12:52 PM
He is syaing what he always says that we ought not worship Christ as God.I believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

What I am not sure about is how I should look at the concept of His pre-existence.

I know Jesus was born, and I believe He was born "the Christ".

I don't believe there could have been a Christ spirit that pre-existed that was given to Jesus at His baptism.

Jacob
August 9th, 2012, 12:55 PM
No and yes.

We think things which are called "thoughts."
Thoughts are intangible, weightless, vaporous entities which are what spirit means.
There are thougts that are sane, healthy, and correspond with the real world.

These are holy or as that word means, "separated,"... i.e.; from the lies and fantasies men can and do replace the Truth with.

The "spirit of God" is that whole network we try to understand as The Natural Laws that form the ever unfolding Reality which is almighty God.

The difficulty in separatingthese three concepts from one another is the foundation for Trinity, as far as men are concerned.
Man can not tell Truth from Reality, because man uses that Natural Laws he conceives to guide his understanding of the Data in-coming from his senses.

When man constructs the actual IMAGE in his own head, one that corrrsponds one-to-one with what is the Reality, external to himself, he envisions God thru that intermediator, Truth.

At no time can men tell Truth from Reality becaus they utilize the one to imagine the other.

This expalins how Christ, meaning Truth, creates all things andwithout Truth is there nothing created in reality.Truth does correspond to reality.

But Jesus is not about philosophy and empty deception, so we need to be careful and willing to have our hearts weighed by God and Jesus Christ.

dave3712
August 9th, 2012, 01:37 PM
Truth does correspond to reality.

But Jesus is not about philosophy and empty deception, so we need to be careful and willing to have our hearts weighed by God and Jesus Christ.

That's the Truth.


TRINITY:
Our (1) Lord is Truth, in whose (2) Spirit of mind we must commit our lives, in order to face (3) Father Nature, the Almighty Reality, within which we all exist.

dave3712
August 9th, 2012, 01:42 PM
I believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

What I am not sure about is how I should look at the concept of His pre-existence.

I know Jesus was born, and I believe He was born "the Christ".

I don't believe there could have been a Christ spirit that pre-existed that was given to Jesus at His baptism.

Truth existed before Abraham, before Moses, and before Jesus.

The spirit of Truth came down upon Jesus, a man, and transfigured him into The Christ, (son-of-God).

The Spirit of Truth did come upon Rev Martin Luther King, too.

Bright Raven
August 9th, 2012, 01:46 PM
Truth existed before Abraham, before Moses, and before Jesus.

The spirit of Truth came down upon Jesus, a man, and transfigured him into The Christ, (son-of-God).

The Spirit of Truth did come upon Rev Martin Luther King, too.

Unh....................?

Jacob
August 9th, 2012, 04:04 PM
That's the Truth.


TRINITY:
Our (1) Lord is Truth, in whose (2) Spirit of mind we must commit our lives, in order to face (3) Father Nature, the Almighty Reality, within which we all exist.We are not God, even if we have the Spirit of God inside us by faith.

Jacob
August 9th, 2012, 04:07 PM
Truth existed before Abraham, before Moses, and before Jesus.

The spirit of Truth came down upon Jesus, a man, and transfigured him into The Christ, (son-of-God).

The Spirit of Truth did come upon Rev Martin Luther King, too.Was Jesus born the Son of God?

If (someone says) not,

Matthew 6:23 "But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!

(only begotten)

Jacob
August 9th, 2012, 05:52 PM
keypurr,

Have you seen this verse? Just came across it so sharing it:

2 Corinthians 1:21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us [is] God,

Untellectual

dave3712
August 9th, 2012, 07:10 PM
Originally Posted by dave3712
Truth existed before Abraham, before Moses, and before Jesus.

The spirit of Truth came down upon Jesus, a man, and transfigured him into The Christ, (son-of-God).

The Spirit of Truth did come upon Rev Martin Luther King, too.


///

Unh....................?

?

John 1:12
But as many as received him, (Truth), to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name, (Truth : john 14:6):

unknown
August 9th, 2012, 07:13 PM
Who or What is this EXPRESS image of God?

keypurr,
Way back when ('78-'80), I had a photography studio in Long Beach (CA), I called it "Imagery".

The words "express image" mean this (to me), A true image, not one that has had areas of the photo "dodged", "burned in", "cropped" or otherwise manipulated. The first prints are called "proofs" or "contact sheets" and taken directly from the negative (we used to use film in cameras). We laid the exposed and processed film directly on the paper and exposed it to light. It was a positive copy of the negative.

I think that's what was meant by "express image", I know it's not a biblical answer, but really I don't think it's explained in the bible. Maybe something in my words will stir a thought in you. I'm sure you will find what you seek.

An example on TOL would be all those people who add to and take away from the truth (yer on you own naming those), they present a false image of God not the "express image".

keypurr
August 9th, 2012, 07:31 PM
*
Nothing can be proven eh?

So after all this time you admit that you do not worship the Father as the one true God....those of us who believe the word knew it for know one knows the Father or has at any time seen His form....the Son who is in the bosom of the Father has revealed Him.

God can only be known through Christ.

I see the ol' "friend" malarky is slipping away and you are becoming your usual angry self.

Totton, can you prove that the Bible is the word of God?

Did you have to learn something about it before you built your faith?

A line of reason must be crossed before a person can accept anything as truth. I crossed that line many years ago. I did not swallow every little thing that told me. I tested it and proved it to be reasonable sound before I took it as truth to build my faith. At 76 I am still open to what God is telling us in his words. I pray that you do not feel that you know it all so that you can not see more of God and his son.

dave3712
August 9th, 2012, 08:58 PM
Totton, can you prove that the Bible is the word of God?

Did you have to learn something about it before you built your faith?

A line of reason must be crossed before a person can accept anything as truth. I crossed that line many years ago. I did not swallow every little thing that told me. I tested it and proved it to be reasonable sound before I took it as truth to build my faith. At 76 I am still open to what God is telling us in his words. I pray that you do not feel that you know it all so that you can not see more of God and his son.


Gen. 1:26 And God, (Father Nature, Reality), said, Let us, (i.e., his Natural Laws, together, in pan-en-theistic expression of the Spirit of God: [Gen 1:2]), make man, (through the process of gradual evolution ending in the finished Adam i.e.; Jesus),... Let us ((i.e., his Natural Laws) make man, (as a reflection of Reality, in his mind, able, through Truth, to imminently reflect the "I am" of this existence: [John 14:6]), IN OUR IMAGE, (after the spirit of our orderly panentheistic organization): and let them, (men as the Dominant species on earth to this day), have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.



God is all there is, Reality itself...
http://kofh2u.tripod.com/genesispic/Genesis%20flood%20pics/thinkingimages.jpg
... the Holy Spirit is present inside our mind when our thinking images the TRUTH, or the picture of Reality inside our mind.

keypurr
August 9th, 2012, 09:14 PM
Thankyou Keypurr for welcoming me to your thread and for saying that: "I am open for your thoughts."

Firstly let me say that you "walk in the truth" (3 Jn.1:3) saying: "I believe that only the Father is uncreated." For Romans 11:33-36 affirms of God that "all things" are "of him." "O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God!....For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen."

You say that: "Christ is a creation." Amen, you are a faithful and true witness, affirming that Jesus is: "the beginning of the creation of God" (Rev.3:14).

Now the question of your thread is: "What is the express image of God?" This English phrase "express image" is translated from the Greek CHARAKTER and the only New Testament use of the word is in Hebrews 1:3.

CHARAKTER has been variously translated as "the express image of his person" (KJV), "the exact representation of His being" (Weymouth), "the Emblem of His assumption"(Concordant), to be "stamped with God's own character" (Moffatt), "an exact Impress of his SUBSTANCE" (Diaglott) and "the exact imprint of his nature"(ESV).

However whatsoever translation you prefer (and you have chosen "the express image of God"), you must concede that the expression is limited to one scene only - and that is in the historical setting of Hebrews Chapter 1.

Now since the question of your thread has to do specifically with the unique word CHARAKTER in the first chapter of Hebrews, I must insist that we restrict our argument to the immediate context to which the expression is confined. For the truth is that the word CHARAKTER is not used anywhere else in the whole NT.

It is of vital importance to carefully look at the phrase "the express image of his person" within the context of its singular use. To this end I will use a different translation of the passage, that we may look with fresh eyes at Hebrews Chapter one - the 1903 New Testament in Modern Speech by Richard Francis Weymouth where our phrase in verse 3 is translated "the exact representation of His being."

Here now are the first four verses of Hebrews:
v.1 "God, who in ancient days spoke to our forefathers in many distinct messages and by various methods through the Prophets,
v.2 has at the end of these days spoken to us through a Son, who is the pre-destined Lord of the universe, and through whom He made the Ages.
v.3 He brightly reflects God's glory and is the exact representation of His being, and upholds the universe by His all-powerful word. After securing man's purification from sin He took His seat at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
v.4 having become as far superior to the angels as the Name He possesses by inheritance is more excellent than theirs" (Heb.1:1-4).

At this point I remind you of your declaration that: "I am open for your thoughts." With this in mind I implore you not to try to win an argument with me in support of your own Christology, but rather seek the truth about the phrase we are examining together.

Now read again a summary of the answer I gave to your question "What is the express image of God?"

It was that "The brightness of his glory and the express image of his person is related to the time when Jesus sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high."

To which you objected: "Amen, But he had that brightness before creation, it was restored to him after he paid the price for our sins."

Now using Weymouth's translation of Hebrews 1:1-4 and resorting to no other scripture whatsoever (remembering that the use of CHARAKTER is unique), I want you to try and convince me and the other readers of your thread, that the phrase the exact representation of His being, refers to a time "before creation."

Read!

Read, your a thinking person for sure. You want me to show you why I think he was created BEFORE creation itself, I assume yu mean before the world was created.

First, I never base my assumptions on one verse. So let me tell you why I believe that he had it before creation.

Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

He had power to create BEFORE the world was created

Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power,

This makes him a form of God. It would not be unreasonableto think that he had the power before creation if he used it to create.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Again, combined with Hebrews, this shows he is the image of God, He is also the firstborn of every creature. To my way of thinking it appears that Christ was God's first creation and second he is firstborn. Now I am aware most think that firstborn in this verse means first in rank, I agree, but it also means first born.

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

He is the creator for his father. God was pleased that he had his fullness.

Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Now that makes me wonder if the father was concerned that it might not have his fullness, or is that God's way of telling us that he created another God?

Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

This image, which I see as spirit was IN Christ Jesus.

Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

More words to tell us that Christ (the image spirit) is a form of God.

That is how I came to the conclusions I have, I think they are correct but I am not a person of high education. God had other plans for me in my younger days.

Anyway Mr Read, that is my story. And I am open to your or any ones elses thoughts for this is all new to me. This is something that I think was given to me for a reason.

Peace and God Bless

keypurr
August 9th, 2012, 09:19 PM
TRUTH.

Christ told you, "Iam the Truth."

Truth is an ideal which men can model inside their spirit-like mind.
Truth is the image of the invisible Reality we discern by making sense from the data of our sensory inputs.


Man HAS managed to form a mental IMAGE of "Father Nature" by understanding of His Laws and creation.



God is all there is, i.e.; Reality itself... the whole external existence beyond our mind is the almighty God to which all life must bow:
http://kofh2u.tripod.com/genesispic/Genesis%20flood%20pics/thinkingimages.jpg



...Truth, inside our head, is the Holy Spirit, the image of God, is present inside our mind when our thinking correctly images the TRUTH, or the picture of Reality inside our mind.

Interesting thoughts friend.

keypurr
August 9th, 2012, 09:29 PM
You are creating another God, another spirit, and to cause yourself to continue thinking of a Christ spirit, so that there is a difference between Jesus and Christ. That is how I am seeing what you are doing.

If you are learning about this, does that mean you know what you are talking about from some other source, or that you are still unsure about what you are saying yourself?

Friend these thoughts are new to me, I never have seen these words jump up at me before this year. They go against a lot of things that I had set in my mind. but sometime we have to see things as they are, not as we want them to be.

God seems to have created his express image, a god. YOu can find verses that say that there is only one God or God created the world, but then you see that he created things through his son, who seems to be a God. Then you also see terms like "most high God", that makes you wonder what that is telling you. If there is a "most high God" then there has to be lesser a God. Maybe a created God. Truth will not come to a closed mind that puts limits of what our great God can do friend.

Peace

keypurr
August 9th, 2012, 09:33 PM
Unh....................?

Subsitute the word "word" in the place of "thuth" and see what it says.

keypurr
August 9th, 2012, 09:43 PM
keypurr,

Have you seen this verse? Just came across it so sharing it:

2 Corinthians 1:21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us [is] God,

Untellectual

Yes friend, I have. want to copare it with a few other translations:

(NET.) But it is God who establishes us together with you in Christ and who anointed us,

(NRSV) But it is God who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us,

(NIV) Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us,

(NASB) Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God,

(GW) God establishes us, together with you, in a relationship with Christ. He has also anointed us.

(ISV) Now the one who makes us-and you as well-secure in union with Christ and has anointed us is God,

Sometimes a different translations lets you understand things better. I love e-sword for allowing me to do that. Its a great program.

keypurr
August 9th, 2012, 09:50 PM
keypurr,
Way back when ('78-'80), I had a photography studio in Long Beach (CA), I called it "Imagery".

The words "express image" mean this (to me), A true image, not one that has had areas of the photo "dodged", "burned in", "cropped" or otherwise manipulated. The first prints are called "proofs" or "contact sheets" and taken directly from the negative (we used to use film in cameras). We laid the exposed and processed film directly on the paper and exposed it to light. It was a positive copy of the negative.

I think that's what was meant by "express image", I know it's not a biblical answer, but really I don't think it's explained in the bible. Maybe something in my words will stir a thought in you. I'm sure you will find what you seek.

An example on TOL would be all those people who add to and take away from the truth (yer on you own naming those), they present a false image of God not the "express image".

I understand you friend, but his image was given deity.

Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

That tells me that this is the true image of the father in all ways, a spirit with all his power.

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Peace

keypurr
August 9th, 2012, 09:53 PM
Gen. 1:26 And God, (Father Nature, Reality), said, Let us, (i.e., his Natural Laws, together, in pan-en-theistic expression of the Spirit of God: [Gen 1:2]), make man, (through the process of gradual evolution ending in the finished Adam i.e.; Jesus),... Let us ((i.e., his Natural Laws) make man, (as a reflection of Reality, in his mind, able, through Truth, to imminently reflect the "I am" of this existence: [John 14:6]), IN OUR IMAGE, (after the spirit of our orderly panentheistic organization): and let them, (men as the Dominant species on earth to this day), have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.



God is all there is, Reality itself...
http://kofh2u.tripod.com/genesispic/Genesis%20flood%20pics/thinkingimages.jpg
... the Holy Spirit is present inside our mind when our thinking images the TRUTH, or the picture of Reality inside our mind.

I believe we now know who the us/we/our is in Genesis.
God and his image (Christ)

Jacob
August 9th, 2012, 11:58 PM
Friend these thoughts are new to me, I never have seen these words jump up at me before this year. They go against a lot of things that I had set in my mind. but sometime we have to see things as they are, not as we want them to be.

God seems to have created his express image, a god. YOu can find verses that say that there is only one God or God created the world, but then you see that he created things through his son, who seems to be a God. Then you also see terms like "most high God", that makes you wonder what that is telling you. If there is a "most high God" then there has to be lesser a God. Maybe a created God. Truth will not come to a closed mind that puts limits of what our great God can do friend.

PeaceI feel that there are false gods that are called gods but that really there is demons behind them. These are lower case 'g' gods.

Then there is God (upper case), whom I know to be the only true God, and as you mention (though you say this in a different way than I can here illustrate by giving you two references) the Most High (Numbers 24:16, Deuteronomy 32:8).

Jacob
August 10th, 2012, 12:00 AM
Yes friend, I have. want to copare it with a few other translations:

Sometimes a different translations lets you understand things better. I love e-sword for allowing me to do that. Its a great program.Thank you for the translations. I was keying in on "in Christ" and "anointed".

Totton Linnet
August 10th, 2012, 04:04 AM
I believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

What I am not sure about is how I should look at the concept of His pre-existence.

I know Jesus was born, and I believe He was born "the Christ".

I don't believe there could have been a Christ spirit that pre-existed that was given to Jesus at His baptism.

Paul says He was in the form of God, not as keypurr has cunningly changed to "a form" of God.

Totton Linnet
August 10th, 2012, 04:10 AM
Totton, can you prove that the Bible is the word of God?

Did you have to learn something about it before you built your faith?

A line of reason must be crossed before a person can accept anything as truth. I crossed that line many years ago. I did not swallow every little thing that told me. I tested it and proved it to be reasonable sound before I took it as truth to build my faith. At 76 I am still open to what God is telling us in his words. I pray that you do not feel that you know it all so that you can not see more of God and his son.

*
This is just where you go 180 degrees wrong keypurr, and time is ticking.

I HAVE proved the bible is true by recieving the things spoken therein.

Faith came first, that is the work of the Holy Ghost....but you are at war against Him aren't you. I don't know it all, I know Jesus....if YOU knew Him you would know that He is God.

This is how we know you are in error.

unknown
August 10th, 2012, 07:50 AM
I understand you friend, but his image was given deity.

Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

That tells me that this is the true image of the father in all ways, a spirit with all his power.

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Peace
Sorry friend, but I'm not understanding what you are looking for.

I have always taken "express image of God" to mean Jesus and the spirit of God is in Him. There is (to my mind) only one spirit, wheather it be in God or in Jesus or anywhere else. If I am understanding you, you are saying this express image is an entity by itself, I have to disagree.

I didn't read the entire thread, do we have a working definition for spirit?

You are one of the few people on TOL I never want to offend. You have never offended me. Good luck with your studies.

Jacob
August 10th, 2012, 11:34 AM
Paul says He was in the form of God, not as keypurr has cunningly changed to "a form" of God.Philippians 2:6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

dave3712
August 10th, 2012, 02:48 PM
Posted by Untellectual
You are creating another God, another spirit, and to cause yourself to continue thinking of a Christ spirit, so that there is a difference between Jesus and Christ. That is how I am seeing what you are doing.

///

Friend these thoughts are new to me, I never have seen these words jump up at me before this year. They go against a lot of things that I had set in my mind. but sometime we have to see things as they are, not as we want them to be.

God seems to have created his express image, a god. YOu can find verses that say that there is only one God or God created the world, but then you see that he created things through his son, who seems to be a God. Then you also see terms like "most high God", that makes you wonder what that is telling you. If there is a "most high God" then there has to be lesser a God. Maybe a created God. Truth will not come to a closed mind that puts limits of what our great God can do friend.

Peace


The RCCmade the same mistake just before Protetants left in droves.

Thye fixed their minds to the teachings and tenets of the religius paradigm that had roseup duringthe Middle Ages, based on the almost universal Platonic thinking of those times.

Simply bythe overwhelming numbers of their followers they attempted to force the lies topbe swallowed and accepted regardless of the Truth which was arising everywhere.

They actually opposed the Christ, Truth.t
They loved the lie and comraderie of the congregations they attended.
They never actually recognized that the Christian is supposed to worship Truth.
Christinas are to struggle to find and define iTruth.

It is the same here, today.

The Bible separates the son-of-man, Jesus, physically coming and even drinking and eating, a wine bibber and drunkard from the Christ, a State of his mind, the spirit of God which is called the son-of-God.


Jesus, the mere man, is the messiah ben Joseph, the Suffering Messiah of Isaiah 53.
Christ, the Spirit indwelling the mind and spiritual quality is the son-of-God who came down from heaven at the baptism by John.

dave3712
August 10th, 2012, 03:03 PM
Gen. 1:26 And God, (Father Nature, Reality), said, Let us, (i.e., his Natural Laws, together, in pan-en-theistic expression of the Spirit of God: [Gen 1:2]), make man, (through the process of gradual evolution ending in the finished Adam i.e.; Jesus),... Let us ((i.e., his Natural Laws) make man, (as a reflection of Reality, in his mind, able, through Truth, to imminently reflect the "I am" of this existence: [John 14:6]), IN OUR IMAGE, (after the spirit of our orderly panentheistic organization): and let them, (men as the Dominant species on earth to this day), have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.



God is all there is, Reality itself...

http://kofh2u.tripod.com/genesispic/Genesis%20flood%20pics/thinkingimages.jpg

... the Holy Spirit is present inside our mind when our thinking images the TRUTH, or the picture of Reality inside our mind.






I believe we now know who the us/we/our is in Genesis.
God and his image (Christ)



What I read in Gen 1:2 is that God has a spirit.
The Spirit of God moves across the "waters" of the creation in the essence of the Natural Laws by which the next frame of Reality comes into being.

It is this ever unfolding Reality which sires the Truth in its wake:

Rom. 1:20

For, from the creation of the (material Universe which we know as the) world, the invisible things of him, (in panentheistic expression, as the spirit of God behind all natural phenomenon), are clearly seen, (empirically, by the rational application of the methods of our science), being understood (pan-en-theistically, God, seen in his Natural Laws: similar to the way he is seen in Torah, ie Law), by (a progression of theories concerning) the things that are made, (and by our on-going observation of the natural laws appropriate to them), even his (pre-Big Bang presence as the Uncaused First Cause of all) eternal, (transcendent) power and Godhead (in Trinity: Theistic God, Panentheistic God, and Immanent [mentally] God); so that (even the atheists), they are without excuse:

dave3712
August 10th, 2012, 03:12 PM
Philippians 2:6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

This is the perfect verse o understand what happened at te transfiguration.


Phil 2:6-8, "...although (Jesus), EXISTED IN THE FORM OF GOD, (morphing into the image of almighty reality as the personified Truth), He did not regard (Truth as) equality with God, (i.e., The Almighty Reality), a thing to be grasped (in that, one is but the mental image of the other),...


.... but EMPTIED Himself, (in a Ritual of Kenosis that did portray the evacuating of noxious and defiling effects leaving an ascetic form of behavior accompanied with austerities), taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of MEN.
And being found in appearance as a man, He HUMBLED Himself by becoming obedient to the point of DEATH, even death on a cross.

keypurr
August 10th, 2012, 06:37 PM
*
This is just where you go 180 degrees wrong keypurr, and time is ticking.

I HAVE proved the bible is true by recieving the things spoken therein.

Faith came first, that is the work of the Holy Ghost....but you are at war against Him aren't you. I don't know it all, I know Jesus....if YOU knew Him you would know that He is God.

This is how we know you are in error.

I know you have blind faith. You just accept what your church tlls you. So you really have faith in your church, not the word of God. This is why most folks in church do not even knoe wht they believe, they just know sitting in church is thr right thing to do. That is you Totton. If you really knew Jesus and who he is you would not judge folks like you do.

keypurr
August 10th, 2012, 06:48 PM
Sorry friend, but I'm not understanding what you are looking for.

I have always taken "express image of God" to mean Jesus and the spirit of God is in Him. There is (to my mind) only one spirit, wheather it be in God or in Jesus or anywhere else. If I am understanding you, you are saying this express image is an entity by itself, I have to disagree.

I didn't read the entire thread, do we have a working definition for spirit?

You are one of the few people on TOL I never want to offend. You have never offended me. Good luck with your studies.

I see Christ as a copy of the Father. It was given the fullness of the Father, in other words, it is a God or form of God. God is a spirit so his image is a spirit. There is one true God, the Father, and one Lord, Christ.

Reading the entire thread is well worth you time friend. Its a theory that was given to me this spring. I believe it as truth.

keypurr
August 10th, 2012, 06:55 PM
This is the perfect verse o understand what happened at te transfiguration.


Phil 2:6-8, "...although (Jesus), EXISTED IN THE FORM OF GOD, (morphing into the image of almighty reality as the personified Truth), He did not regard (Truth as) equality with God, (i.e., The Almighty Reality), a thing to be grasped (in that, one is but the mental image of the other),...


.... but EMPTIED Himself, (in a Ritual of Kenosis that did portray the evacuating of noxious and defiling effects leaving an ascetic form of behavior accompanied with austerities), taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of MEN.
And being found in appearance as a man, He HUMBLED Himself by becoming obedient to the point of DEATH, even death on a cross.

:cheers:

Jacob
August 10th, 2012, 07:53 PM
This is the perfect verse o understand what happened at te transfiguration.


Phil 2:6-8, "...although (Jesus), EXISTED IN THE FORM OF GOD, (morphing into the image of almighty reality as the personified Truth), He did not regard (Truth as) equality with God, (i.e., The Almighty Reality), a thing to be grasped (in that, one is but the mental image of the other),...


.... but EMPTIED Himself, (in a Ritual of Kenosis that did portray the evacuating of noxious and defiling effects leaving an ascetic form of behavior accompanied with austerities), taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of MEN.
And being found in appearance as a man, He HUMBLED Himself by becoming obedient to the point of DEATH, even death on a cross.It is difficult for me to understand you.

2 Corinthians 11:3 But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.

keypurr
August 10th, 2012, 10:34 PM
It is difficult for me to understand you.

2 Corinthians 11:3 But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.

That brings up a good point. Do we sometimes look for to much in scripture? Do we just see what we want to see? I confess that I am quilty of that in my past.

Jacob
August 10th, 2012, 10:42 PM
That brings up a good point. Do we sometimes look for to much in scripture? Do we just see what we want to see? I confess that I am quilty of that in my past.It is good to have others to sharpen our understanding.

Reading the Bible and talking about it is profitable.

Totton Linnet
August 11th, 2012, 05:28 AM
I know you have blind faith. You just accept what your church tlls you. So you really have faith in your church, not the word of God. This is why most folks in church do not even knoe wht they believe, they just know sitting in church is thr right thing to do. That is you Totton. If you really knew Jesus and who he is you would not judge folks like you do.

*
I love it when you get mad and start with spellos and grammos,

You are ready to pick up stones to hurl at me just like your ancestors hurled stones at Christ "not for any good work stone we You but You being a man makest Yoursef God."

You are in the same camp as them.

I believe the apostles, if "my church" told me Christ was not God, I would show them that the apostles declared He was.

Your own words judge you that you do not belong to Christ's church...if you did you would be in agreement with it.

dave3712
August 11th, 2012, 08:15 AM
1. God is a spirit, so his image would be a spirit.
2. This is God's firstborn of every creature, a creation.
3. This spirit has deity for it has the fullness of the father.
4. This spirit was with God before the creation, creation was done through this spirit.
5. This spirit is a form of God

I use the term Christ spirit to discribe this image.

What do YOU think it is?

2X

God is all there is, ie; Reality itself... the whole external existence beyond our mind is the almighty God to which all life must bow:

http://kofh2u.tripod.com/genesispic/Genesis%20flood%20pics/thinkingimages.jpg

...Truth inside our head, is the Holy Spirit, the image of God, is present inside our mind when our thinking correctly images the TRUTH, or the picture of Reality inside our mind.

dave3712
August 11th, 2012, 08:26 AM
dave3712
This is the perfect verse o understand what happened at te transfiguration.

Phil 2:6-8, "...although (Jesus), EXISTED IN THE FORM OF GOD, (morphing into the image of almighty reality as the personified Truth), He did not regard (Truth as) equality with God, (i.e., The Almighty Reality), a thing to be grasped (in that, one is but the mental image of the other),...


.... but EMPTIED Himself, (in a Ritual of Kenosis that did portray the evacuating of noxious and defiling effects leaving an ascetic form of behavior accompanied with austerities), taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of MEN.
And being found in appearance as a man, He HUMBLED Himself by becoming obedient to the point of DEATH, even death on a cross.
///


It is difficult for me to understand you.

.

It is difficult for people who have a psychologically set mind based upon the social or religious paradigm that they were raised in.
These people can not hear nor see things differently.

The tend to oppose ideas even irrationally, if need be.
Any answer back to a perplexing argument against the things they already believe is enough to allow them to continue in r=error.

The whole gospel is about that.
The whole of Israel, especially the Pharisees who insisted their own iunterpretation found Jesus wanting opposed what ever Christ said.

One must think oputside the box.
One ought be encouraged to think differently after 2000 years of arguing with the Jews, and not converting them even yet.



http://mb-soft.com/believe/txn/kenosis.htm

Rituals of Kenosis, or emptying; the other, as rituals of Plerosis, or filling.
Rituals of Kenosis portray the evacuating of the meaning of time as it approaches the end of a cycle. The wearing down of time at this moment produces noxious and defiling effects, and thus the appropriate response is an ascetic form of behavior accompanied with austerities.

In the rituals of Plerosis, the filling of time or the beginning again of the new time, dramas of excess and overabundance of power are portrayed in the rituals. Specific dramatic roles in these rituals imitate the power of deities in bringing about the renewal of the time of the cosmos. The interpenetration of the human imitation and cooperation with the deeds of the myth creates the dramatic character of the rituals.


Jesus "took on" the human form.
It was part of the kenosis, his emptying of himself.
Human form did not suddenly become the "image of God."

A key passage on this event is Philippians 2:6-7 (comments in [ ] are mine):

Philippians 2:6 who, [Christ], though he was in the form [Gk morphE] of God, did not regard equality with God as something to be exploited,

Philippians 2:7 but emptied [Gk keno, from which English "kenosis" is derived] himself, taking the form of a slave (as Jesus, no longer The Christ), being born in human likeness [Gk homoiOma].
And being found in human form [Gk schEma], (returned to the son-of-man, again)

Jacob
August 11th, 2012, 12:16 PM
It is difficult for people who have a psychologically set mind based upon the social or religious paradigm that they were raised in.
These people can not hear nor see things differently.

The tend to oppose ideas even irrationally, if need be.
Any answer back to a perplexing argument against the things they already believe is enough to allow them to continue in r=error.

The whole gospel is about that.
The whole of Israel, especially the Pharisees who insisted their own iunterpretation found Jesus wanting opposed what ever Christ said.

One must think oputside the box.
One ought be encouraged to think differently after 2000 years of arguing with the Jews, and not converting them even yet.



http://mb-soft.com/believe/txn/kenosis.htm

Rituals of Kenosis, or emptying; the other, as rituals of Plerosis, or filling.
Rituals of Kenosis portray the evacuating of the meaning of time as it approaches the end of a cycle. The wearing down of time at this moment produces noxious and defiling effects, and thus the appropriate response is an ascetic form of behavior accompanied with austerities.

In the rituals of Plerosis, the filling of time or the beginning again of the new time, dramas of excess and overabundance of power are portrayed in the rituals. Specific dramatic roles in these rituals imitate the power of deities in bringing about the renewal of the time of the cosmos. The interpenetration of the human imitation and cooperation with the deeds of the myth creates the dramatic character of the rituals.


Jesus "took on" the human form.
It was part of the kenosis, his emptying of himself.
Human form did not suddenly become the "image of God."

A key passage on this event is Philippians 2:6-7 (comments in [ ] are mine):

Philippians 2:6 who, [Christ], though he was in the form [Gk morphE] of God, did not regard equality with God as something to be exploited,

Philippians 2:7 but emptied [Gk keno, from which English "kenosis" is derived] himself, taking the form of a slave (as Jesus, no longer The Christ), being born in human likeness [Gk homoiOma].
And being found in human form [Gk schEma], (returned to the son-of-man, again)I'm not sure what you are saying.

I believe Jesus was born a human (man/baby). Not that Jesus became a human. As a man, Jesus did not regard equality something to be grasped, even though He existed in the form of God. But He emptied Himself, a servant to those around Him and to us.

keypurr
August 11th, 2012, 12:33 PM
I'm not sure what you are saying.

I believe Jesus was born a human (man/baby). Not that Jesus became a human. As a man, Jesus did not regard equality something to be grasped, even though He existed in the form of God. But He emptied Himself, a servant to those around Him and to us.

He speaks more of the mind of Jesus and the spirit that spoke through him. Jesus was a human in all ways, but the spirit in him was with God before the worlds were created. We must see that Christ is much more than a man. Man was created higher than other creatures by giving it more intellgents and the ability to reason to a high degree. Wisdom and power is not in the body but in the mind.

Jacob
August 11th, 2012, 12:35 PM
He speaks more of the mind of Jesus and the spirit that spoke through him. Jesus was a human in all ways, but the spirit in him was with God before the worlds were created. We must see that Christ is much more than a man. Man was created higher than other creatures by giving it more intellgents and the ability to reason to a high degree. Wisdom and power is not in the body but in the mind.I remember from John 1 that the word was with God and the word was God.

I don't understand if you are getting "spirit" out of that.

keypurr
August 11th, 2012, 12:55 PM
I remember from John 1 that the word was with God and the word was God.

I don't understand if you are getting "spirit" out of that.

I think the logos most likely is the express image of God, Christ.

Christ is a spirit like his God is. Christ is more than a man. It is God's greatest creation.

In the beginning was the logos. Christ was in the beginning, God created all through him.
The logos was with God. Christ was with God, before cretion Christ was the only one with God
The logos was God. Christ is a god, form of god. Yet he has a God. He tells us that his father is the only true God.

Logic tells us that there are two gods mentioned in the Bible.
The most high God is the Father. Now if there is a most high there has to be lesser god. Christ is that lesser god, he is a creation.

Peace friend

Jacob
August 11th, 2012, 01:37 PM
I think the logos most likely is the express image of God, Christ.

Christ is a spirit like his God is. Christ is more than a man. It is God's greatest creation.

In the beginning was the logos. Christ was in the beginning, God created all through him.
The logos was with God. Christ was with God, before cretion Christ was the only one with God
The logos was God. Christ is a god, form of god. Yet he has a God. He tells us that his father is the only true God.

Logic tells us that there are two gods mentioned in the Bible.
The most high God is the Father. Now if there is a most high there has to be lesser god. Christ is that lesser god, he is a creation.

Peace friendWhat evidence would you submit from the Bible of a Christ in scripture before Jesus?

keypurr
August 11th, 2012, 02:12 PM
What evidence would you submit from the Bible of a Christ in scripture before Jesus?

How about Hebrews 1 or Colossiians 1' if God used Christ to create the world, he had to be before Jesus. Christ is a spirit, like God. Christ is much more than a man.

dave3712
August 11th, 2012, 02:19 PM
Jesus "took on" the human form.
It was part of the kenosis, his emptying of himself.
Human form did not suddenly become the "image of God."

A key passage on this event is Philippians 2:6-7 (comments in [ ] are mine):

Philippians 2:6 who, [Christ], though he was in the form [Gk morphE] of God, did not regard equality with God as something to be exploited,

Philippians 2:7 but emptied [Gk keno, from which English "kenosis" is derived] himself, taking the form of a slave (as Jesus, no longer The Christ), being born in human likeness [Gk homoiOma].
And being found in human form [Gk schEma], (returned to the son-of-man, again)


///


I'm not sure what you are saying.

I believe Jesus was born a human (man/baby). Not that Jesus became a human. As a man, Jesus did not regard equality something to be grasped, even though He existed in the form of God. But He emptied Himself, a servant to those around Him and to us.

Yes, that was a little confusing since it referred to the Transfihuration, when The Christ left Jesus who then had taken on his initial human form.

What I am saying must be seen as both the taking on of the spiritual form at his baptism and the return to his human form again at the transfiguration, just before he died at the cross.

God, the previous State before the Transfiguration, had left and certainly, by definition, God can not die, since god's are immortal.

Jacob
August 11th, 2012, 02:29 PM
How about Hebrews 1 or Colossiians 1' if God used Christ to create the world, he had to be before Jesus. Christ is a spirit, like God. Christ is much more than a man.Which verses are you looking at in Hebrews 1 and Colossians 1? The word "Christ" appears in Colossians 1, but not in Hebrews 1.

You are saying "God used Christ to create the world." You say that because of this, Christ "had to be before Jesus".

You also say, "Christ is a spirit, like God." Did we say that the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ refer to the same thing? This remains to be shown/proven.

And you say, "Christ is much more than a man." I believe Jesus to be the only begotten Son of God.

Ps82
August 11th, 2012, 02:48 PM
Hi keypurr
Remember me. We've discussed this before.
You wrote:

Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:


Who or What is this EXPRESS image of God?

Some great scripture BTW.

Then you drew some conclusions, which I would like to address one by one:


1. God is a spirit, so his image would be a spirit.
If you mean by saying that his "image would be a spirit" that the image would be invisible ... well, wrong. An image is something that can be seen. You are correct if you are meaning that his visible presence is "more spiritual" in nature than our fleshly presence. The OT called IT a "body of heaven in HIS clearness." IOW, the correct conclusion is that God has an image that he created before the world was ... being the first born of all creature, which is super-natural, ... "Angelic" is another good word that comes to mind when describing a super-natural bodily form.

You concluded:

2. This is God's firstborn of every creature, a creation.

Oh YES. God created a visible presence for his use ... IT is first mentioned in Gen. 1:26-27 where is was called "image." IOW, a visible presence.

You wrote:

3. This spirit has deity for it has the fullness of the father.

I would express the same thing this way: This super-natural bodily form has associated with IT the fulness of the Father.

I just don't believe you can put an infinite, eternal, all-powerful, omni-everything invisible God inside a finite body box. But, God can create a body ... impart unto it life ... and use it to represent himself visually within his own creation for men to see.

You said:

4. This spirit was with God before the creation, creation was done through this spirit.
I'd write this: This especially created living visible bodily form was created before the world was. We first read about God working through his bodily conduit on earth is found in Genesis 2... on the day when the LORD God worked to create a bodily form for Adam.,, etc.

You say:

5. This spirit is a form of God
I'd agree this way:
This heavenly body is a form that represents ALL of God manifested in heaven ... and on earth ... as Emmanuel (God among us.)

You asked:

I use the term Christ spirit to discribe this image.

What do YOU think it is?

My favorite topic for years.
God was able to manifest his living super-natural body in times of old ... but during the time of the Messiah ... God was able to manifest his same image again ... but this time it brought IT into the world through the natural doorway of woman's womb and of natural flesh ... which had a measure of life ... but which could also die for a purpose.

Christ, the WORD, told us the truth about the Father and himself and this image in OT times.
It is written in John 17:4,5
I(Lord Jesus) have glorified YOU (God who appeared in times past) on the earth: I have finished the work which YOU (God) gavest me to do.
And now, O (Super-natural) Father, glorify YOU me with YOUR own self with the glory which I had with YOU before the world was.

IOW, John 1:1 is true:
In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was WITH GOD, and the WORD WAS GOD.

And the manifested WORD of God shared the glorious presence with the Father before the world was.

When anyone saw the "body of heaven" in the OT ... IT represent the Father, of course, ... but the identity of the WORD was kept secret hidden within the GLORY. I'd say: When anyone saw the heavenly presence of the Father, then they had also seen the future image of the Son of flesh.

Very much like what Jesus said in his day:
When you have SEEN ME (in flesh), then you have SEEN the (presence of the) Father.

unknown
August 11th, 2012, 03:31 PM
I see Christ as a copy of the Father. It was given the fullness of the Father, in other words, it is a God or form of God. God is a spirit so his image is a spirit. There is one true God, the Father, and one Lord, Christ.

Reading the entire thread is well worth you time friend. Its a theory that was given to me this spring. I believe it as truth.

Thank you for the invitation but I will pass on this discussion.

Best Wishes....

dave3712
August 11th, 2012, 05:19 PM
How about Hebrews 1 or Colossiians 1' if God used Christ to create the world, he had to be before Jesus. Christ is a spirit, like God. Christ is much more than a man.

Wow...

That is a great observation.

Christ was before Abaham, but clearly, Jesus was long after Abraham.
If Jesus, the physical man, was also the spirit f God, Teh Christ, then this could not be.


What you say here makes the point very clearly.

At birth, even we have to define ourselves, as we discover our toes and hands are actually part of us.
As we create in our mind our own self, the Truth forms in our mind about the real world around us, including us.
The Truth, i.e., the Christ, is the image we are forming in our mind.

This is was Jesus said, "Leave the children alone! Allow the little ones to come to Me, and do not forbid or restrain or hinder them, for of such [as these] is the kingdom of heaven composed," Matthew 19:14.

dave3712
August 11th, 2012, 05:34 PM
Hi keypurr
Remember me. We've discussed this before.


1) John 1:1 is true:
In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was WITH GOD, and the WORD WAS GOD.

2) And the manifested WORD of God shared the glorious presence with the Father before the world was..

Hmmm,...

2) Your addition of "shared" replacing "with" is unwarranted when we consider that Christ is Truth.
Truth exists with the ever unfolding Reality which father's it, but does no "sharing" at all.


1) John1:1
In the beginning was the Word, (i.e.; Truth: [John 14:6]), and the Word, ([John 14:9], Truth, itself), was (synonymous) with God, (i.e.; the ever unfolding Reality), and the Word, (Truth: [John 14:6]), was (for men, indistinguishable from the ever unfolding Reality), God, (almighty for all men).

2 "He," (Truth, the symbolic Word to come: [Jud 1:3]) was with God, (the ever unfolding Reality), in the beginning, (that is, the initial unfolding of Reality is what as the Creation).

Jn 1:3 ALL (real) THINGS, (phenomenally, i.e.; mentally), came into existence through him, (this concept of Truth), and apart from him, (this ideal of Truth), not even ONE (real) thing came into (actual) existence.

dave3712
August 11th, 2012, 05:36 PM
What evidence would you submit from the Bible of a Christ in scripture before Jesus?

John 8:58
Jesus replied, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, before Abraham was born, I AM.

Jacob
August 11th, 2012, 05:43 PM
John 8:58
Jesus replied, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, before Abraham was born, I AM.This verse doesn't answer my question, but I will comment on it as best as I can at this time.

I can see it meaning, that the prophets spoke of the coming of Jesus even before Abraham.

I can see it meaning, that Jesus is God and preexisted.

What I don't see it saying, is that Christ is separate from Jesus.

The verse does not mention Christ. So though it does speak of Jesus, it cannot mean that Christ preexisted Jesus.

keypurr
August 11th, 2012, 07:34 PM
Thank you for the invitation but I will pass on this discussion.

Best Wishes....

If you change your mind my hand of friendship is waiting for you.

Peace

keypurr
August 11th, 2012, 07:40 PM
Hmmm,...

2) Your addition of "shared" replacing "with" is unwarranted when we consider that Christ is Truth.
Truth exists with the ever unfolding Reality which father's it, but does no "sharing" at all.


1) John1:1
In the beginning was the Word, (i.e.; Truth: [John 14:6]), and the Word, ([John 14:9], Truth, itself), was (synonymous) with God, (i.e.; the ever unfolding Reality), and the Word, (Truth: [John 14:6]), was (for men, indistinguishable from the ever unfolding Reality), God, (almighty for all men).

2 "He," (Truth, the symbolic Word to come: [Jud 1:3]) was with God, (the ever unfolding Reality), in the beginning, (that is, the initial unfolding of Reality is what as the Creation).

Jn 1:3 ALL (real) THINGS, (phenomenally, i.e.; mentally), came into existence through him, (this concept of Truth), and apart from him, (this ideal of Truth), not even ONE (real) thing came into (actual) existence.

Christ, being an express image of God, is the only one who could ever fully understand just how great our God is.

keypurr
August 11th, 2012, 07:42 PM
John 8:58
Jesus replied, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, before Abraham was born, I AM.

:cheers:

Ps82
August 11th, 2012, 10:05 PM
Hmmm,...

2) Your addition of "shared" replacing "with" is unwarranted when we consider that Christ is Truth.
Truth exists with the ever unfolding Reality which father's it, but does no "sharing" at all.


1) John1:1
In the beginning was the Word, (i.e.; Truth: [John 14:6]), and the Word, ([John 14:9], Truth, itself), was (synonymous) with God, (i.e.; the ever unfolding Reality), and the Word, (Truth: [John 14:6]), was (for men, indistinguishable from the ever unfolding Reality), God, (almighty for all men).

2 "He," (Truth, the symbolic Word to come: [Jud 1:3]) was with God, (the ever unfolding Reality), in the beginning, (that is, the initial unfolding of Reality is what as the Creation).

Jn 1:3 ALL (real) THINGS, (phenomenally, i.e.; mentally), came into existence through him, (this concept of Truth), and apart from him, (this ideal of Truth), not even ONE (real) thing came into (actual) existence.

There is only ONE God. God the Father is God the Son/Savior.
Isaiah 43:11
I (the ONE God), even I am the LORD, beside ME (as the ONE God and as the LORD ) there is no savior.

Our Lord Jesus told us that he and LORD the Father are ONE.
He told us that when anyone had SEEN HIM (the Son of flesh), they had SEEN THE Father.

That is because they are the ONE God, who were both revealed with the same visible bodily form.
God the Father was revealed within creation with a super-natural / body of heaven ... while God the Son was revealed with a natural / body of flesh in his day. But this bodily form was the same image... it was just the essence of which the body was manifested that was different between the Father and the Son.

John the Baptist declared the identity of God the Son to us. We read about what was revealed to us by John the B in John 1:18.

No man at any time hath seen, God, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he (John the B) hath declared him (God the Son)

The time of Jesus was the first time any man had ever seen God manifested as the Son of flesh... until that time God had never revealed himself with flesh!

It is in this way that I say the God the Father ... and God the Son shared the same likeness of a bodily form... After all Jesus explained that they did ... when he said, "When you have SEEN ME ... you HAVE SEEN the Father."

dave3712
August 12th, 2012, 05:04 AM
Posted by dave3712
John 8:58
Jesus replied, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, before Abraham was born, I AM.

///

This verse doesn't answer my question, but I will comment on it as best as I can at this time.

I can see it meaning, that the prophets spoke of the coming of Jesus even before Abraham.

I can see it meaning, that Jesus is God and preexisted.

What I don't see it saying, is that Christ is separate from Jesus.

The verse does not mention Christ. So though it does speak of Jesus, it cannot mean that Christ preexisted Jesus.

You seem to bow appreciate the idea that Christ is not actually Jesus, which has been my point.

Jesus, as the son-of-man did not pre-date Abraham, because we know Mary gave birth in 32AD.

But Christ, the Truth, clearly pre-dates that whole of the creation , following in the wake of the Reality that evermore unfolds at the time of the Big Bang Beginning of the heaven and the earth.

dave3712
August 12th, 2012, 05:09 AM
There is only ONE God.

God the Father is God the Son/Savior.


Our Lord Jesus told us that he and LORD the Father are ONE.

He told us that when anyone had SEEN HIM (the Son of flesh), they had SEEN THE Father.



Yeah,... that is what I am saying too.

I am saying that God is the ever unfolding Reality that creates the next frame of existence, and his image is Truth which he sires in His wake:


John 14:6 I am the Truth, and the way,and the life....

Anyone who sees Truth see the reality that has unfolded.

Read
August 12th, 2012, 05:16 AM
Read, your a thinking person for sure. You want me to show you why I think he was created BEFORE creation itself, I assume yu mean before the world was created.

First, I never base my assumptions on one verse. So let me tell you why I believe that he had it before creation.

Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

He had power to create BEFORE the world was created

Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power,

This makes him a form of God. It would not be unreasonableto think that he had the power before creation if he used it to create.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Again, combined with Hebrews, this shows he is the image of God, He is also the firstborn of every creature. To my way of thinking it appears that Christ was God's first creation and second he is firstborn. Now I am aware most think that firstborn in this verse means first in rank, I agree, but it also means first born.

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

He is the creator for his father. God was pleased that he had his fullness.

Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Now that makes me wonder if the father was concerned that it might not have his fullness, or is that God's way of telling us that he created another God?

Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

This image, which I see as spirit was IN Christ Jesus.

Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

More words to tell us that Christ (the image spirit) is a form of God.

That is how I came to the conclusions I have, I think they are correct but I am not a person of high education. God had other plans for me in my younger days.

Anyway Mr Read, that is my story. And I am open to your or any ones elses thoughts for this is all new to me. This is something that I think was given to me for a reason.

Peace and God Bless

Keypurr, you write,

"You want me to show you why I think he was created BEFORE creation itself, I assume yu mean before the world was created."

One of the most popular texts quoted in an attempt to prove that Christ was created before the world is the one you quoted lastly, that is Philippians 2:5-6.

There has been a lot of arguments about this passage epecially about the phrase "the form of God". Lets use Weymouth's translation of the text of Phil.2:5-8 which may allow us a new understanding.

Weymouth translates:

v.5 Let the same disposition be in you which was in Christ (Messiah)Jesus.
v.6 Although from the beginning He had the nature of God He did not reckon His equality with God a treasure to be tightly grasped.
v.7 Nay, He stripped Himself of His glory, and took on Him the nature of a bondservant by becoming a man like other men.
v.8 And being recognized as truly human, He humbled Himself and even stooped to die; yes, to die on a cross.

Now most people reading this passage, associate the word "glory" here with Christ's supposed "pre-incarnate" heavenly existence.

But what in context is the glory he stripped himself of? It is not that Jesus was God Almighty as some insist! The answer is given just two verses earlier which stresses the enormous status Jesus enjoyed as the man Messiah as verse 5 introduces him.

The Son of God did not empty himself of one form in order to take on another form, that of a servant. That is only read into the text!

"Nay, He stripped Himself of His glory that was his as the man Messiah, and took on Him the nature of a bondservant by becoming a man like other men (Phil.2:7). This explanation you can find in the text.

An example of Jesus stripping himself of his glory is found in the gospels when "...charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Messiah" (Mt.16:20).

So Keypurr, let the same disposition be in us which was in Jesus, who though he was the man Messiah, "the pre-destined Lord of the universe, the appointed heir of all things" (Heb.1:2); nevertheless "took on Him the nature of a bondservant by becoming a man like other men" (Phil.2:7).



Read!

dave3712
August 12th, 2012, 05:23 AM
Posted by dave3712
John 8:58
Jesus replied, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, before Abraham was born, I AM.

///

:cheers:

Your observation, that Christ pre-existed Abraham,... clearly establishes that Jesus was merely the son-of-man.
While, what the gospels are telling us, is that Christ is a euphemism for the ideal of Truth.

It is Truth, as a concept, which, as a spirit, (holy, indeed), is the Christ an savior of mankind.

Truth is the "son-of-the-creative-force" that unfolds the real world we are all both trapped within and nurtured by.

It was the spirit of Truth which came down from heaven and alighted upon jesus, transfiguring him into the Elijah, returned.
It was Elijah in 800BC who suddenly appeared at an age of @30, and did all the things Christ would do again in 32AD.

Both mere men were endowed with the spirit of truth and transfigured.
Both men were pre-dated by Truth that has always existed from the beginning.

dave3712
August 12th, 2012, 05:29 AM
Posted by dave3712


1) John1:1
In the beginning was the Word, (i.e.; Truth: [John 14:6]), and the Word, ([John 14:9], Truth, itself), was (synonymous) with God, (i.e.; the ever unfolding Reality), and the Word, (Truth: [John 14:6]), was (for men,... indistinguishable from the ever unfolding Reality, i.e...), God, (almighty Reality for all men).

2 "He," (Truth, the symbolic Word to come: [Jud 1:3]) was with God, (i.e.; the ever unfolding Reality), in the beginning, (that is, in the initial unfolding of Reality in what was the Creation).

Jn 1:3 ALL (real) THINGS, (phenomenally, i.e.; mentally), came into existence (for men) through him, (i.e.; this concept of Truth), and apart from him, (this ideal of Truth), not even ONE (real) thing came into (actual) existence (as far as men are concerned).


/////

Christ, being an express image of God, is the only one who could ever fully understand just how great our God is.




Exactly.

Truth corresponds, one-to-one, with what is real.
As the ever unfolding Reality engulfs us, Truth is sired in its wake.
But mortal man must discern Truth and establish it as a concept in his mind.
When he does, his thoughts embody the holy kind of spirit that can save men, and work towards the everlasting life of our species.

But Truth, itself, is the expression of what is and has been Real, differentiating the fantasy worlds from the Reality all sane men accept and recognize.

dave3712
August 12th, 2012, 06:00 AM
.... "the pre-destined Lord of the universe, the appointed heir of all things" (Heb.1:2); nevertheless "took on Him the nature of a bondservant by becoming a man like other men" (Phil.2:7).




.... the pre-destined Lord of the universe, (Truth), the appointed heir (in the wake) of all things (that have actually been created)... "Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, (i.e.; the Truth sired in the wake of the unfolding Reality before us), whom he (almighty Reality, itself), hath appointed heir, ( or the express image) of all things,... by whom, (i.e.; this concept of what is true), also he made (the congruent image of) the worlds, (one external to man and one envisioned within, mentally) Heb.1:2;

...nevertheless "took on Him, (while in the State of the Christ), the nature of a bondservant by becoming (again, as before he was baptized), a man like other men".... who, [Christ], though he was in the form [Gk morphE] of God, did not regard equality with God as something to be exploited,
but emptied [Gk keno, from which English "kenosis" is derived] himself, taking the form of a slave (i.e.; as Jesus, and no longer, The Christ), being born in human likeness [Gk homoima].
And being found, (again, as before his baptism: [Matt 3;16,17][), in human form [Gk schema], (returned to the son-of-man, again) :Phil.2:7.

Jacob
August 12th, 2012, 09:37 AM
You seem to bow appreciate the idea that Christ is not actually Jesus, which has been my point.

Jesus, as the son-of-man did not pre-date Abraham, because we know Mary gave birth in 32AD.

But Christ, the Truth, clearly pre-dates that whole of the creation , following in the wake of the Reality that evermore unfolds at the time of the Big Bang Beginning of the heaven and the earth.I believe Jesus to be the Christ, but I sensed that you are separating the concept of the Christ from Jesus.

Ps82
August 12th, 2012, 10:29 AM
Yeah,... that is what I am saying too.

I am saying that God is the ever unfolding Reality that creates the next frame of existence, and his image is Truth which he sires in His wake:


John 14:6 I am the Truth, and the way,and the life....

Anyone who sees Truth see the reality that has unfolded.

Hi dave,
Some of the phrases and terms you use to describe the ONE God are not familiar to me, so I'm not sure of all you mean when you write.

BUT, I will say this:
There is ONE God ... but he is able to reveal himself in ways that you and I cannot. He can be the ONE invisible Spiritual God, but reveal himself visually in multiples by the use of his created living image associated with him.

I know this because he has already revealed himself twice. Once as the super-natural Father ... then again as the natural fleshly Savior.

Therefore, the world / humanity recognizes him in two ways ... as the Father and the Son.

Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses all knew him as Father ... and I think that many of them were aware that there was yet another ONE (presence of God on earth/ Emmanuel) to be revealed in the future.

We know God as our Lord, who was God in flesh, who died, and has risen to glorification.

They (the two of them) are HE ... or HE is they. That's one of the reasons that Jesus could reveal that he had shared the GLORY with the Father before the world was.

What was God's GLORY. Well, it was his presence. Read Exodus 33 and 34 and you will find that Moses wanted to see God's Glory and wanted God's presence to go before Israel into the promised Land; so, God agreed to reveal all of his goodness to Moses and came down and passed before Moses to reveal his glorious presence in all his glory. While the glory of God's presence passed by, God called out ITS name: The LORD, The LORD God ... and Moses was allowed to look upon the glory of God's presence as it departed away... so that Moses safely saw the back parts of the image of the LORD in all its goodness as he/IT retreated.

God only reveals himself by using the ONE same image ... whether it be manifested of the essence of dreams ... in visions of the day in angelic form ... or whether it be outright as it was with Moses to talked to God face to face.

Finally, our Lord has been revealed as the Lordly image in flesh, which no man had ever before seen until the day of Jesus.

You and I will one future day see him glorified as our risen Lord.

keypurr
August 12th, 2012, 12:02 PM
There is only ONE God. God the Father is God the Son/Savior.
Isaiah 43:11
I (the ONE God), even I am the LORD, beside ME (as the ONE God and as the LORD ) there is no savior.

Our Lord Jesus told us that he and LORD the Father are ONE.
He told us that when anyone had SEEN HIM (the Son of flesh), they had SEEN THE Father.

That is because they are the ONE God, who were both revealed with the same visible bodily form.
God the Father was revealed within creation with a super-natural / body of heaven ... while God the Son was revealed with a natural / body of flesh in his day. But this bodily form was the same image... it was just the essence of which the body was manifested that was different between the Father and the Son.

John the Baptist declared the identity of God the Son to us. We read about what was revealed to us by John the B in John 1:18.

No man at any time hath seen, God, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he (John the B) hath declared him (God the Son)

The time of Jesus was the first time any man had ever seen God manifested as the Son of flesh... until that time God had never revealed himself with flesh!

It is in this way that I say the God the Father ... and God the Son shared the same likeness of a bodily form... After all Jesus explained that they did ... when he said, "When you have SEEN ME ... you HAVE SEEN the Father."

We have to agree to disagree friend. I do not see the father being the son or the son being the father. They are two beings. God made a copy of himself, that is Christ. One true God and one created god. Only Christ has seen God as only Christ is an express image of God. so if you have seen christ, you have seen what and who God is.
Peace Ps82

Read
August 12th, 2012, 09:42 PM
.... the pre-destined Lord of the universe, (Truth), the appointed heir (in the wake) of all things (that have actually been created)... "Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, (i.e.; the Truth sired in the wake of the unfolding Reality before us), whom he (almighty Reality, itself), hath appointed heir, ( or the express image) of all things,... by whom, (i.e.; this concept of what is true), also he made (the congruent image of) the worlds, (one external to man and one envisioned within, mentally) Heb.1:2;

...nevertheless "took on Him, (while in the State of the Christ), the nature of a bondservant by becoming (again, as before he was baptized), a man like other men".... who, [Christ], though he was in the form [Gk morphE] of God, did not regard equality with God as something to be exploited,
but emptied [Gk keno, from which English "kenosis" is derived] himself, taking the form of a slave (i.e.; as Jesus, and no longer, The Christ), being born in human likeness [Gk homoima].
And being found, (again, as before his baptism: [Matt 3;16,17][), in human form [Gk schema], (returned to the son-of-man, again) :Phil.2:7.

Dave I understand from an earlier post of yours that you think that: "Christ is a euphemism for the ideal of Truth." "Jesus is the Christ" (1 Jn.5:1) and Jesus is "the truth" (Jn.14:6).

Christ (ancient Greek: Χριστός, Khristós, meaning 'anointed') is a translation of the Hebrew מָשִׁיחַ (Māšîaḥ), the Messiah, and is used as a title for Jesus in the New Testament.

Andrew told Peter that " We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ" (Jn.1:41).

If Jesus then is the truth, and the phrase "the Christ" his title; how can his title be "a euphemism for the ideal of Truth?"

Read!


The M
( I believe that that the man Christ Jesus (the man Messiah) is the pre-destined Lord of the universe.

Totton Linnet
August 13th, 2012, 06:07 AM
When keypurr read "He was in the form of God" it smote his conscience, he knew he was wrong....but he slyly changed it to "He being in a form of God"

How can he BE so sly?

Ps82
August 13th, 2012, 09:17 AM
We have to agree to disagree friend. I do not see the father being the son or the son being the father. They are two beings. God made a copy of himself, that is Christ. One true God and one created god. Only Christ has seen God as only Christ is an express image of God. so if you have seen christ, you have seen what and who God is.
Peace Ps82

What nuance about the truth that there is only ONE God that you haven't yet seen?

What part of Christ's own words do you not accept?
quote: "The Father and I are ONE."

What truth from Isaiah 43:11 is escaping you?
quote: "I,(God) even I am the LORD, beside ME (as God and LORD) there is no Savior."

Now ... the Father and the Son ... being the ONE God ... can only become two personages by the use of God's created personal image of choice. God used the IMAGE he formed for himself to reveal himself unto being he created.

The world / human beings / were allowed to meet the ONE God manifested visually as the Super-natural Father and then again as the natural fleshly Son. We comprehend them as two visual individuals ... but we are told often the truth that - there is only one God.

HE (The ONE God) is they ... and they are HE.
This miracle is out of the ability for a mere man ... but with God all things are possible.

dave3712
August 13th, 2012, 02:09 PM
Posted by dave3712
You seem to bow appreciate the idea that Christ is not actually Jesus, which has been my point.

Jesus, as the son-of-man did not pre-date Abraham, because we know Mary gave birth in 32AD.

But Christ, the Truth, clearly pre-dates that whole of the creation , following in the wake of the Reality that evermore unfolds at the time of the Big Bang Beginning of the heaven and the earth.


///


I believe Jesus to be the Christ, but I sensed that you are separating the concept of the Christ from Jesus.

Yes, I am.

I see Jesus as the messiah ben Joseph, the suffering messiah.
I see The Christ as the Spirit of God indwelling him.
God is a spirit.

I support this by noting that scripture separates the physcial Jesus by referring to him as the son-of-man.
Bu,t the Christ is always called the son-of-God, which was indwelling Jesus until the transfiguration, when that spirit, (Elijah), left him to suffer the cross and death as any mortal might.

I also interpret the resurrection as the work of Elijah and Moses who brought the dead Jesus back to life.

John 20:12
And she saw two angels in white sitting there, one at the head and one at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain.

dave3712
August 13th, 2012, 02:20 PM
We have to agree to disagree friend. I do not see the father being the son or the son being the father. They are two beings. God made a copy of himself, that is Christ. One true God and one created god. Only Christ has seen God as only Christ is an express image of God. so if you have seen christ, you have seen what and who God is.
Peace Ps82

I reduce the sum of the New Testament to a word, i.e.; Truth.
Christ is the Ideal we know as Truth.
He said he is the personified ideal of that concept.

Christ identified himself, further, as the son-of-God, and de facto, he claimed to be his image the the Father.
But this then logically defines the once ineffable God of the Jews as the ever chnaging and evolving Reality which we live in from moment to moment.

The logic is simple.
Since Christ is Truth, he is the express image of what is and has been and will be Reality.

If you know the Truth, you know the Reality of the matter.

dave3712
August 13th, 2012, 02:28 PM
What nuance about the truth that there is only ONE God that you haven't yet seen?

What part of Christ's own words do you not accept?
quote: "The Father and I are ONE."

What truth from Isaiah 43:11 is escaping you?
quote: "I,(God) even I am the LORD, beside ME (as God and LORD) there is no Savior."

Now ... the Father and the Son ... being the ONE God ... can only become two personages by the use of God's created personal image of choice. God used the IMAGE he formed for himself to reveal himself unto being he created.

The world / human beings / were allowed to meet the ONE God manifested visually as the Super-natural Father and then again as the natural fleshly Son. We comprehend them as two visual individuals ... but we are told often the truth that - there is only one God.

HE (The ONE God) is they ... and they are HE.
This miracle is out of the ability for a mere man ... but with God all things are possible.

You cannot distinguish what you conceive as Truth from the Reality that Truth shows you.
In fact, you can only use your seven senses to form your opinion of what seems True.

You guess from the input from your senses that Reality must actually be as you think it is according to the way you have envisioned it to be.

Christ is saying, when you are correct, and actually do envision thoughts about the Reality of a matter, then those thoughts are Holy.
They, that vison in your mind, are the Holy Spirit.

Thi is like when you finally see that "Separate but Equal" is a lie.

You are shocked by the assassination of Martin Luther King into being intellectually honest.
You then face the Truth, as it forms in your mind, and seeing the Facts-of-Life, as the Reality of unfairness in Civil Rights.

Then you change the Laws.

dave3712
August 13th, 2012, 02:34 PM
Dave I understand from an earlier post of yours that you think that: "Christ is a euphemism for the ideal of Truth." "Jesus is the Christ" (1 Jn.5:1) and Jesus is "the truth" (Jn.14:6).

Christ (ancient Greek: Χριστός, Khristós, meaning 'anointed') is a translation of the Hebrew מָשִׁיחַ (Māšîaḥ), the Messiah, and is used as a title for Jesus in the New Testament.

Andrew told Peter that " We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ" (Jn.1:41).

If Jesus then is the truth, and the phrase "the Christ" his title; how can his title be "a euphemism for the ideal of Truth?"

Read!


The M
( I believe that that the man Christ Jesus (the man Messiah) is the pre-destined Lord of the universe.

I totally agree that Christ is the Truth, personified in the presence of Jesus in 32AD.
I am merely separating the body from the mind here.

Jesus was the bodily son-of-man.
But his spirit of mind was that Holy state of mind that envision Truth and refutes the lies.

Read
August 13th, 2012, 05:26 PM
I totally agree that Christ is the Truth, personified in the presence of Jesus in 32AD.
I am merely separating the body from the mind here.

Jesus was the bodily son-of-man.
But his spirit of mind was that Holy state of mind that envision Truth and refutes the lies.

Dave I think your idea that "Jesus was the bodily son-of-man" is questionable. But I am open.

Jesus was/is "the Son of man" however I find your terminology "Jesus was the bodily son-of-man" most confusing. The more especially so because you also say that "I am merely separating the body from the mind here."

Dave you cannot separate the body from the mind! Have you not read that "the body without the spirit is dead?" "Out of body experiences are illusions!" The person is hallucinating that is all.

Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

The Son of man was "dust" animated by "spirit" the same as we are for Eccl.12:7 says: "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."

When Jesus commended his spirit to his Father - he died. For Luke 23:46 says: "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost." (Luke 23:4)

So I don't accept your idea of: "separating the body from the mind."

However I can agree with this statement of your: "But his spirit of mind was that Holy state of mind that envision Truth and refutes the lies."

For Eph.4:23-24 says: "And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness."



If I am misunderstanding you in anything, please explain.

Thankyou,


Read!

dave3712
August 13th, 2012, 05:45 PM
Dave I think your idea that "Jesus was the bodily son-of-man" is questionable. But I am open.

Jesus was/is "the Son of man" however I find your terminology "Jesus was the bodily son-of-man" most confusing. The more especially so because you also say that "I am merely separating the body from the mind here."

Dave you cannot separate the body from the mind! Have you not read that "the body without the spirit is dead?"
!

You seem pretty mind set in ways that are opinionated about rather philosophical ideas like the mnid/body relationship, so I am just stating my own opinionated and psycholgoically set prespective right back, but not as an argument.

The spirit without the body is dead too, isn't?
Some people have been known to lose the spirit to live, and their body gave out.

The real matter you must explain concerns the immortality of the body, as a requirement for a god.
Immortality is the defining requirement for a god.
Gods don't die, because that is why we call them Gods.

In the case of Jesus, dying as a mere son-of-man, a mortal, makes sense only if we understand that, Elijah, the son-of-God, had left the body of Jesus on the mount, during the transfiguration.
They coudn't kill Elijah.

He was the son-of God.
He hadbeen in heaven with God for 800 years before 32AD.
It was Elijah who came down as a dove at the baptism and alighted upn te shoukder of Jesus, indwelling him until the Cross.

It was Elijah Jesus called for from the Cross and queried him about foresakening him to death.

It was Elijah and Moses at the tomb who had raised up the dead body of Jesus.

keypurr
August 13th, 2012, 05:45 PM
Dave I think your idea that "Jesus was the bodily son-of-man" is questionable. But I am open.

Jesus was/is "the Son of man" however I find your terminology "Jesus was the bodily son-of-man" most confusing. The more especially so because you also say that "I am merely separating the body from the mind here."

Dave you cannot separate the body from the mind! Have you not read that "the body without the spirit is dead?" "Out of body experiences are illusions!" The person is hallucinating that is all.

Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

The Son of man was "dust" animated by "spirit" the same as we are for Eccl.12:7 says: "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."

When Jesus commended his spirit to his Father - he died. For Luke 23:46 says: "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost." (Luke 23:4)

So I don't accept your idea of: "separating the body from the mind."

However I can agree with this statement of your: "But his spirit of mind was that Holy state of mind that envision Truth and refutes the lies."

For Eph.4:23-24 says: "And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness."



If I am misunderstanding you in anything, please explain.

Thankyou,


Read!

I disagree somewhat. True the body needs the spirit for life. But I see that demons (spirits) can enter bodies so why could not a holy Christ spirit enter a body? I think that Jesus had his own spirit as well as the express image spirit in him. This is how God spoke through him. I realize that i'm applying human logic to scripture, but why would it not be possible?

Peace friend.

dave3712
August 13th, 2012, 05:55 PM
I disagree somewhat. True the body needs the spirit for life. But I see that demons (spirits) can enter bodies so why could not a holy Christ spirit enter a body? I think that Jesus had his own spirit as well as the express image spirit in him. This is how God spoke through him. I realize that i'm applying human logic to scripture, but why would it not be possible?

Peace friend.

Yes, i wanted to add what you say here but reserved it in the name of brevity.

Jesus had a soirit in the days when he came eating and drinking, a wine bibber and a glutton.
When he was indwelled by The Elijah whom had come back at the moment of baptism by John, the Holy Spirit possessed Jesus and over rode the other mentalies which would have normally controlled his behavior and thoughts.

In fact, it was exactly those more cardinal and Freudian spirits of mind that Christ thereafter cast out of people, and in many case, replaced withthe same spirit of Truth, albeit for a short moment, as Christ himself was experiencing.

keypurr
August 13th, 2012, 06:26 PM
Yes, i wanted to add what you say here but reserved it in the name of brevity.

Jesus had a soirit in the days when he came eating and drinking, a wine bibber and a glutton.
When he was indwelled by The Elijah whom had come back at the moment of baptism by John, the Holy Spirit possessed Jesus and over rode the other mentalies which would have normally controlled his behavior and thoughts.

In fact, it was exactly those more cardinal and Freudian spirits of mind that Christ thereafter cast out of people, and in many case, replaced withthe same spirit of Truth, albeit for a short moment, as Christ himself was experiencing.

There has to be different words that have been translated as spirit.
One kind gives life and one controls the mind. This is when I wish I knew Hebrew and Greek.

Jacob
August 13th, 2012, 09:28 PM
Yes, I am.

I see Jesus as the messiah ben Joseph, the suffering messiah.
I see The Christ as the Spirit of God indwelling him.
God is a spirit.

I support this by noting that scripture separates the physcial Jesus by referring to him as the son-of-man.
Bu,t the Christ is always called the son-of-God, which was indwelling Jesus until the transfiguration, when that spirit, (Elijah), left him to suffer the cross and death as any mortal might.

I also interpret the resurrection as the work of Elijah and Moses who brought the dead Jesus back to life.

John 20:12
And she saw two angels in white sitting there, one at the head and one at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain.I don't follow what you are saying.

keypurr
August 13th, 2012, 09:44 PM
What nuance about the truth that there is only ONE God that you haven't yet seen?

What part of Christ's own words do you not accept?
quote: "The Father and I are ONE."

What truth from Isaiah 43:11 is escaping you?
quote: "I,(God) even I am the LORD, beside ME (as God and LORD) there is no Savior."

Now ... the Father and the Son ... being the ONE God ... can only become two personages by the use of God's created personal image of choice. God used the IMAGE he formed for himself to reveal himself unto being he created.

The world / human beings / were allowed to meet the ONE God manifested visually as the Super-natural Father and then again as the natural fleshly Son. We comprehend them as two visual individuals ... but we are told often the truth that - there is only one God.

HE (The ONE God) is they ... and they are HE.
This miracle is out of the ability for a mere man ... but with God all things are possible.

The father is not the son, the son is not the Father.

Mar 5:7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.

If the Father is the Most High God, and Jesus is his son, what is Jesus? God? a god? Questions ....

Christ is the express image of the father, this spirit had the fullness of the father, he is a form of God. If his is an image of god, he can not be God. But he can be a form or type of God. For we have a "most holy God" which means that there is more than one God, or the scriptures are wrong.

In Hebrews 1, God calls his image Oh God.
Paul says we have one God and one Lord. Our Lord is a form of God.

Peace

keypurr
August 13th, 2012, 09:46 PM
When keypurr read "He was in the form of God" it smote his conscience, he knew he was wrong....but he slyly changed it to "He being in a form of God"

How can he BE so sly?

My slyness comes from the spirit that is in me Totton.

Read
August 14th, 2012, 03:43 AM
You seem pretty mind set in ways that are opinionated about rather philosophical ideas like the mnid/body relationship, so I am just stating my own opinionated and psycholgoically set prespective right back, but not as an argument.

The spirit without the body is dead too, isn't?
Some people have been known to lose the spirit to live, and their body gave out.

The real matter you must explain concerns the immortality of the body, as a requirement for a god.
Immortality is the defining requirement for a god.
Gods don't die, because that is why we call them Gods.

In the case of Jesus, dying as a mere son-of-man, a mortal, makes sense only if we understand that, Elijah, the son-of-God, had left the body of Jesus on the mount, during the transfiguration.
They coudn't kill Elijah.

He was the son-of God.
He hadbeen in heaven with God for 800 years before 32AD.
It was Elijah who came down as a dove at the baptism and alighted upn te shoukder of Jesus, indwelling him until the Cross.

It was Elijah Jesus called for from the Cross and queried him about foresakening him to death.

It was Elijah and Moses at the tomb who had raised up the dead body of Jesus.


Dave,

I have given my answers to your philosophical ideas.


The spirit without the body is dead too, isn't?

Answer No! "...the spirit shall return unto God who gave it" (Eccles.12:7)

Some people have been known to lose the spirit to live, and their body gave out.

Answer No! During the Korean Warome American POW's lost the WILL to live - it was known as Give-up-itis (Read abot it at http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2011-05-27-korean-war-pow-buried_n.htm

The real matter you must explain concerns the immortality of the body, as a requirement for a god.
Immortality is the defining requirement for a god.
Gods don't die, because that is why we call them Gods.

Answer The god of this age (2 Cor.4:4) is regarded to be the devil who is cast into the lake of fire (Rev.20:10) . The lake of fire is the second death. (Rev.20:14)

In the case of Jesus, dying as a mere son-of-man, a mortal, makes sense only if we understand that, Elijah, the son-of-God, had left the body of Jesus on the mount, during the transfiguration.

Answer The appearance of Moses and Elijah was a VISION.
Mat 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the VISION to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.


They coudn't kill Elijah.

He was the son-of God.
He had been in heaven with God for 800 years before 32AD.

Answer God tells us through scripture in John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. Elijah was taken up into the air, the atmosphere of this very planet earth and about 20 years later wrote a letter to King Jehoram in 2 Chron.21:12. Read about it at: http://www.truthontheweb.org/elijah.htm



It was Elijah who came down as a dove at the baptism and alighted upn te shoukder of Jesus, indwelling him until the Cross.

Where is your scripture?

It was Elijah Jesus called for from the Cross and queried him about foresakening him to death.

Answer Mar 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

It was Elijah and Moses at the tomb who had raised up the dead body of Jesus. Where is your scripture?


Read!

Totton Linnet
August 14th, 2012, 03:44 AM
My slyness comes from the spirit that is in me Totton.

You said it.

dave3712
August 14th, 2012, 06:03 AM
The father is not the son, the son is not the Father.

Mar 5:7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.

If the Father is the Most High God, and Jesus is his son, what is Jesus? God? a god? Questions ....

Christ is the express image of the father, this spirit had the fullness of the father, he is a form of God. If his is an image of god, he can not be God. But he can be a form or type of God. For we have a "most holy God" which means that there is more than one God, or the scriptures are wrong.

In Hebrews 1, God calls his image Oh God.
Paul says we have one God and one Lord. Our Lord is a form of God.

Peace

I agree with the logic.

What confuses people about the Trinitt is trhat they just can not stop anthropomorphuzing the concepts of an ever unfolding Almighty Reality and it correspondence with the Ideal of Truth.

They still try to think of their God as a person.

Though they will even accept the statement that God is a spirit, because that is what scripture specifically states, the will not apply th meaning of spirit to the matter.

God is a spirit, like a thought the enters one's mind.
They can not separate this from the body of the person within whom that thought resides.

They laugh when they say, "The devil made me do it," but that is exactly the case.
The devil is a spirit, one associated with their Freudian comoonents.
That spirit can gain infkuence over them and dominate the way they think.
Then, from that set mentality which resides inside their mind, the devil will have been the responsible factor for their actions thereafter:



http://kofh2u.tripod.com/YAAT/Theocracy.jpg

dave3712
August 14th, 2012, 06:24 AM
Dave:

1) The real matter you must explain concerns the immortality of the body, as a requirement for a god.
Immortality is the defining requirement for a god.
Gods don't die, because that is why we call them Gods.

Answer The god of this age (2 Cor.4:4) is regarded to be the devil who is cast into the lake of fire (Rev.20:10) . The lake of fire is the second death. (Rev.20:14)

2) In the case of Jesus, dying as a mere son-of-man, a mortal, makes sense only if we understand that, Elijah, the son-of-God, had left the body of Jesus on the mount, during the transfiguration.

Answer The appearance of Moses and Elijah was a VISION.
Mat 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the VISION to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.








Hi Mr Read,

I appreciate your considerate and polite responses very much.
I would like to respond to this set of issue separately at first, since this is the basis for stating that Jesus was a man but that Spirit in him is our God and his.


The verse you recommended to me seems to clearly support what I say about the Devil, dominating our mind, while the verse also confirms that Truth is the ideal we call the son-of-God.

2 Corinthians 4:4
Amplified Bible (AMP)
4 For the god of this world (the devil) has blinded the unbelievers’ minds [that they should not discern the truth], preventing them from seeing the illuminating light of the Gospel of the glory of Christ (the Truth), Who is the (immaterial, weightless, abstract) Image and Likeness of God.




That "all men have the power to become the sons of God" supports the idea that same spirit which indwelled Jesus can do so in us.
That is the teaching of the Church, that we can accept Christ.
Christ can become the a personal relationship with us because Christ is a mentality.

It is this mentality that we can take on even as millions of others at the same time do likewise.
The mentality is a concept, then.
The menality is a "body" of thought, but not matrial or phtsical or concrete in itself.

It is a vision in, and of, our mind.

dave3712
August 14th, 2012, 06:41 AM
Posted by dave3712

I see Jesus as the messiah ben Joseph, the suffering messiah.
I see The Christ as the Spirit of God indwelling him.



I support this by noting that scripture separates the physcial Jesus by referring to him as the son-of-man.
But the Christ, He is always called the son-of-God.

It was Truth, (a spirit or mentality) which was indwelling Jesus until the transfiguration.
The transfiguration was a metamophosis, a change in Christ.
That metamorphosis was when that spirit, (Elijah), left Jesus, (returned him to the mere son of a man again, to suffer the cross and death as any mortal might.

I also interpret the resurrection as the work of Elijah and Moses who brought the dead Jesus back to life.

John 20:12
And she saw two angels in white sitting there, one at the head and one at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain.


I don't follow what you are saying.

Basically, I am saying Jesus died onthe cross which could never happen to a real God by definition.

The spirit of Elijah who had left the mind of Jesus, and had returned to the company of Moses, retruned to the Tomb where the dead body of Jesus lay.
They were still there when Mary came, (John 20:12), after having raised the son-of-man from the dead.

Jacob
August 14th, 2012, 10:40 AM
Basically, I am saying Jesus died onthe cross which could never happen to a real God by definition.

The spirit of Elijah who had left the mind of Jesus, and had returned to the company of Moses, retruned to the Tomb where the dead body of Jesus lay.
They were still there when Mary came, (John 20:12), after having raised the son-of-man from the dead.I believe your words are false.

Ps82
August 14th, 2012, 12:32 PM
Hi keypurr,
You believe:

The father is not the son, the son is not the Father.

and you give this as part of your evidence:

Mar 5:7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.

Do you realize that you are paying attention to the voices of demons found in that scripture. Do you wonder whether or not demons understood the plans of God any more than men. I've read once (somewhere - can't remember verse) that angels watch men on earth to learn about the secret plans of God.

The words of the demons in Mar 5:7 are not the end all to truth. Listen to God the Father and Jesus.
Isaiah 43:11
John 10:30, 38
John 12:44, 45
Johhn 13:13
And here is an OT passages of which you may never have studied.
Genesis 15:1 (The Lord God is speaking)
After these things the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision saying, "Fear not, Abram: I AM thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward."

Abram knew that this shield and great reward included an heir... so Abram immediately questioned:
Genesis 15:2
And Abram said, "Lord God, whiat wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?"
Genesis 15:4 (And God explained about a promised son to come from Abram's own line reproduction.)
And, behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, "This shall not be your heir; but HE that shall come forth out of your own bowels shall be thine heir."

So, I ask: Who was the ultimate promised great reward in the form of a son that was to come through Isaac that would bring many sons unto Abraham?
ANS: It was to be the promises Messiah

According to Genesis 15:1 The LORD God (I AM) said that HE was the "exceeding great reward" promised to Abram.

If you accept Jesus as the fulfillment of the PROMISED SON that was to come into the world through the lineage of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob ... to be our Lord Jesus... and if you believe scripture ... then you must realize that these passages also reveal that The LORD God is our LORD Jesus ... Emmanuel among men.


You also wrote:


If the Father is the Most High God, and Jesus is his son, what is Jesus? God? a god? Questions ....

One more time:
There is ONE invisible spiritual God ... who created an image for his personal use. The ONE God literally manifested his presence visually unto men and angels as the presence of the Father in OT times. Then the ONE God literally manifested his presence visually unto men and angels and demons as the presence of the Son in NT times. HE had John the Baptist to introduce his identity to us by calling him the WORD of God, who was God and was with God all along."
God came as his own Son ... as the Savior. Isaiah 43:11.

Also notice within Genesis 15:1,2,4 that it was literally THE WORD of God that came to Abram and said unto Abram, "I AM your exceeding great reward."

Keypurr, you wrote:

Christ is the express image of the father, this spirit had the fullness of the father, he is a form of God. If his is an image of god, he can not be God. But he can be a form or type of God. For we have a "most holy God" which means that there is more than one God, or the scriptures are wrong.

In Hebrews 1, God calls his image Oh God.
Paul says we have one God and one Lord. Our Lord is a form of God.

Peace

When ever you read about the image of God or the image of the Father ... then you need to begin to include in your thinking the logical idea that IMAGE means a form that someone can SEE.

Why, people SAW JESUS's form/image when he walked upon the earth ...
And Jesus revealed that men in the past had heard the voice of the Father and SEEN HIS SHAPE. It was just the religious leaders of his day that were clueless. John 5:37
So, why didn't these NT men know who Jesus was?
They had never had the privilege of seeing the Father's shape nor hearing HIS voice... nor did they have his word abiding in them. John 5:38

so, what is so difficult about understanding the spelled-out facts - that the invisible God had a visible image and a audible voice ... and that God used them both? With his WORD/voice HE created everything that is ... and then he sent HIS VOICE/word into the world bearing an image of flesh ... who is our LORD Jesus ... Emmanuel among us.
Isaiah 43:11

keypurr
August 14th, 2012, 01:28 PM
Hi keypurr,
You believe:


and you give this as part of your evidence:


Do you realize that you are paying attention to the voices of demons found in that scripture. Do you wonder whether or not demons understood the plans of God any more than men. I've read once (somewhere - can't remember verse) that angels watch men on earth to learn about the secret plans of God.

The words of the demons in Mar 5:7 are not the end all to truth. Listen to God the Father and Jesus.
Isaiah 43:11
John 10:30, 38
John 12:44, 45
Johhn 13:13
And here is an OT passages of which you may never have studied.
Genesis 15:1 (The Lord God is speaking)
After these things the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision saying, "Fear not, Abram: I AM thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward."

Abram knew that this shield and great reward included an heir... so Abram immediately questioned:
Genesis 15:2
And Abram said, "Lord God, whiat wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?"
Genesis 15:4 (And God explained about a promised son to come from Abram's own line reproduction.)
And, behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, "This shall not be your heir; but HE that shall come forth out of your own bowels shall be thine heir."

So, I ask: Who was the ultimate promised great reward in the form of a son that was to come through Isaac that would bring many sons unto Abraham?
ANS: It was to be the promises Messiah

According to Genesis 15:1 The LORD God (I AM) said that HE was the "exceeding great reward" promised to Abram.

If you accept Jesus as the fulfillment of the PROMISED SON that was to come into the world through the lineage of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob ... to be our Lord Jesus... and if you believe scripture ... then you must realize that these passages also reveal that The LORD God is our LORD Jesus ... Emmanuel among men.


You also wrote:



One more time:
There is ONE invisible spiritual God ... who created an image for his personal use. The ONE God literally manifested his presence visually unto men and angels as the presence of the Father in OT times. Then the ONE God literally manifested his presence visually unto men and angels and demons as the presence of the Son in NT times. HE had John the Baptist to introduce his identity to us by calling him the WORD of God, who was God and was with God all along."
God came as his own Son ... as the Savior. Isaiah 43:11.

Also notice within Genesis 15:1,2,4 that it was literally THE WORD of God that came to Abram and said unto Abram, "I AM your exceeding great reward."

Keypurr, you wrote:


When ever you read about the image of God or the image of the Father ... then you need to begin to include in your thinking the logical idea that IMAGE means a form that someone can SEE.

Why, people SAW JESUS's form/image when he walked upon the earth ...
And Jesus revealed that men in the past had heard the voice of the Father and SEEN HIS SHAPE. It was just the religious leaders of his day that were clueless. John 5:37
So, why didn't these NT men know who Jesus was?
They had never had the privilege of seeing the Father's shape nor hearing HIS voice... nor did they have his word abiding in them. John 5:38

so, what is so difficult about understanding the spelled-out facts - that the invisible God had a visible image and a audible voice ... and that God used them both? With his WORD/voice HE created everything that is ... and then he sent HIS VOICE/word into the world bearing an image of flesh ... who is our LORD Jesus ... Emmanuel among us.
Isaiah 43:11

No friend, the image of God is a spirit like God is. You cannot see it. This image was filled with the person of the Father and the power of the Father. The only difference is one is a creation of the other. The Father created this image. Now the Father was no longer alone, he had a spiritual son. Christ is firstborn of all creatures. He was made first and higher than any other created being. God, through his son Christ, created all things.

Peace

Bright Raven
August 14th, 2012, 01:32 PM
No friend, the image of God is a spirit like God is. You cannot see it. This image was filled with the person of the Father and the power of the Father. The only difference is one is a creation of the other. The Father created this image. Now the Father was no longer alone, he had a spiritual son. Christ is firstborn of all creatures. He was made first and higher than any other created being. God, through his son Christ, created all things.

Peace

Wrong friend.

Isaiah 43
10 “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord,
“And My servant whom I have chosen,
That you may know and believe Me,
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me.
11 I, even I, am the Lord,
And besides Me there is no savior.

freelight
August 14th, 2012, 03:22 PM
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:


Who or What is this EXPRESS image of God?

1. God is a spirit, so his image would be a spirit.
2. This is God's firstborn of every creature, a creation.
3. This spirit has deity for it has the fullness of the father.
4. This spirit was with God before the creation, creation was done through this spirit.
5. This spirit is a form of God

I use the term Christ spirit to discribe this image.

What do YOU think it is?

Semantics.

An 'image' is a 'representation' of someone or something however it is reflected, or by whatever substance it is made out of, if you choose to get 'techinical' over it,....but in any or all cases,....an 'image' is something that arises in consciousness to be recognized, consisting of some 'definitive form'. See...now matter how you describe, articulate or qualify how 'Jesus' is the 'express image' of 'God'....you come back to semantics, how one defines terms...further coloured by one's own doctrinal bias or philosophical preference. Back to 'point of view'.

Of course I bring this up, only for a more critical 'smack' to our standard assumptions.

All personalities, forms, images, creations emerge from One Source, a matrix of Consciousness and Energy, a womb of primordial substance, which we call 'God', so that Jesus being 'of' God...is naturally in substance and form.... an 'image' of Deity just as Man is, since Jesus is both Son of Man & Son of God in archetypal form, function and potential. In all these purviews...he is always a 'Son', the progeny or offspring of an eternal Ancestor...the Universal Father (The One Original Presence). You can further put your own Christological trimmings on the cake and eat it too.

If Jesus helps you to see 'God', then good and well, but splitting hairs over how Jesus is seperate from or like 'God' is a dovetail into metaphysics and language, while it may be useful, it can also complicate matters and get into trifles that are unnecessary, petty or unprofitable. Dialogue and debate can be enjoyable, constructive and thought-provoking, but after awhile....the 'hamster wheel' comes to an exhaustion point.



pj

dave3712
August 14th, 2012, 05:18 PM
Posted by dave3712
Basically, I am saying Jesus died onthe cross which could never happen to a real God by definition.

The spirit of Elijah who had left the mind of Jesus, and had returned to the company of Moses, retruned to the Tomb where the dead body of Jesus lay.
They were still there when Mary came, (John 20:12), after having raised the son-of-man from the dead.


///

I believe your words are false.

My words sum to an explanation of the story which in just a perspective.

You may have another iudea concerning whohese two angels might be.
I would probablynthink you were wrong.

In support of my own interpeartion I equate these two to Moses and Elijah who we saw travelling together right after the Transfiguration.

It would seem appropriate in any case, that these two WOULD attednd tehe greatest moment in Judaism, the resurrection.


(I mean, we KNOW they were in town. it seems reasonable they would have shown up.)

Jacob
August 14th, 2012, 05:42 PM
My words sum to an explanation of the story which in just a perspective.

You may have another iudea concerning whohese two angels might be.
I would probablynthink you were wrong.

In support of my own interpeartion I equate these two to Moses and Elijah who we saw travelling together right after the Transfiguration.

It would seem appropriate in any case, that these two WOULD attednd tehe greatest moment in Judaism, the resurrection.


(I mean, we KNOW they were in town. it seems reasonable they would have shown up.)I know there is a difference between an angel and a man.

dave3712
August 14th, 2012, 05:50 PM
I know there is a difference between an angel and a man.

What is te difference and why is this important to our discussion????

Jacob
August 14th, 2012, 05:54 PM
What is te difference and why is this important to our discussion????Moses and Elijah are not angels, but men.

Psalm 8:5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

dave3712
August 14th, 2012, 06:08 PM
Moses and Elijah are not angels, but men.

Psalm 8:5 For thou hast made him, Man), a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

Moses died.

In the resurrection we are like angels:


30 For in the resurrected state neither do [men] marry nor are [women] given in marriage, but they are like the angels in heaven.

elisabeth e
August 14th, 2012, 06:19 PM
"Like angels" is different than "are angels."

Ps82
August 14th, 2012, 07:14 PM
No friend, the image of God is a spirit like God is. You cannot see it. This image was filled with the person of the Father and the power of the Father. The only difference is one is a creation of the other. The Father created this image. Now the Father was no longer alone, he had a spiritual son. Christ is firstborn of all creatures. He was made first and higher than any other created being. God, through his son Christ, created all things.

Peace

Please show me just how you explain away this OT truth in:
Exodus 24:9,10,11,12

BTW, the KJV states ... that they saw "the body of heaven in HIS clearness."

How other versions erase the "HIS clear appearing" phrase from this text and spins it as to say that it was the sapphire stone under HIS feet that was clearly seen ... I'll never understand!

Read
August 14th, 2012, 08:06 PM
Hi Mr Read,

I appreciate your considerate and polite responses very much.
I would like to respond to this set of issue separately at first, since this is the basis for stating that Jesus was a man but that Spirit in him is our God and his.


The verse you recommended to me seems to clearly support what I say about the Devil, dominating our mind, while the verse also confirms that Truth is the ideal we call the son-of-God.

2 Corinthians 4:4
Amplified Bible (AMP)
4 For the god of this world (the devil) has blinded the unbelievers’ minds [that they should not discern the truth], preventing them from seeing the illuminating light of the Gospel of the glory of Christ (the Truth), Who is the (immaterial, weightless, abstract) Image and Likeness of God.




That "all men have the power to become the sons of God" supports the idea that same spirit which indwelled Jesus can do so in us.
That is the teaching of the Church, that we can accept Christ.
Christ can become the a personal relationship with us because Christ is a mentality.

It is this mentality that we can take on even as millions of others at the same time do likewise.
The mentality is a concept, then.
The menality is a "body" of thought, but not matrial or phtsical or concrete in itself.

It is a vision in, and of, our mind.

Dave you say; "Jesus was a man but that Spirit in him is our God and his." This is all true and confirmed by:

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Since Christ is a man and God is not a man (Num.23:19) implies that Christ was/is not God.

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. (That God was in Christ implies that Christ was/is not God).

2Co 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not. The Father is the God of Jesus Christ which implies that Christ was/is not God, for God does not have a god.

You say: That "all men have the power to become the sons of God" supports the idea that same spirit which indwelled Jesus can do so in us. That is the teaching of the Church, that we can accept Christ.
All men do not have the power to become the sons of God. Jesus said: Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Psa 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth. In the day of his power we were willing and we "received" the Lord Jesus Christ - we did not accept him.

NO one can "accept" Christ for to accept means "consent to receive."
We receive Christ apart from our consent eg.Paul on the road to Damascus (Acts 9:3-22).

You say: Christ can become the a personal relationship with us because Christ is a mentality. Better to say: "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:" (Phil.2:5)

Read

tomlapalm
August 14th, 2012, 08:07 PM
"Like angels" is different than "are angels."

actually this is" iso aggellos" iso means exactly the same in quality and quantity like isometric exercises or isosceles triangle where the sides are all the same.

We are iso angels. we are elohyim

Jacob
August 14th, 2012, 08:09 PM
There is such a thing as rulers who are human, but they are not angels.

keypurr
August 14th, 2012, 08:43 PM
Please show me just how you explain away this OT truth in:
Exodus 24:9,10,11,12

Since the NT tells us that no man has seen God I can only guess friend. How many forms as God taken in scripture. Were these men seeing God or a form of God. God is a spirit, we have yet to begin to understand the power of a spirit. But it makes sense to me that only his express image would really see the Father fully. Only Christ would fully understand the workings of his God. I do not have many answers yet, but I still seeking Ps82, like you my friend.

Grosnick Marowbe
August 14th, 2012, 08:51 PM
Since the NT tells us that no man has seen God I can only guess friend. How many forms as God taken in scripture. Were these men seeing God or a form of God. God is a spirit, we have yet to begin to understand the power of a spirit. But it makes sense to me that only his express image would really see the Father fully. Only Christ would fully understand the workings of his God. I do not have many answers yet, but I still seeking Ps82, like you my friend.

You mean that, only Christ would fully understand the workings of His Father fully!! Not, "His God."

keypurr
August 14th, 2012, 09:31 PM
You mean that, only Christ would fully understand the workings of His Father fully!! Not, "His God."

No, his father is his God.
Christ is the Son of God, NOT God the Son.

Mar 5:7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.

Read
August 14th, 2012, 11:17 PM
I disagree somewhat. True the body needs the spirit for life. But I see that demons (spirits) can enter bodies so why could not a holy Christ spirit enter a body? I think that Jesus had his own spirit as well as the express image spirit in him. This is how God spoke through him. I realize that i'm applying human logic to scripture, but why would it not be possible?

Peace friend.

Keypurr you ask:

Why could not a holy Christ spirit enter a body? " What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?" (1 Cor.6:19)

Keypurr, "The Holy Spirit" I know (1 Cor.6:19), "the Spirit of God" I know (Rms.8:9) and "the Spirit of Christ" I know (1 Pet.1:11) - but who or what is "a holy Christ Spirit?"

You say that you are applying human logic to scripture. Better to "Hold fast the form of sound words..." (2 Tim.1:13)


Read!

dave3712
August 15th, 2012, 10:44 AM
Please show me just how you explain away this OT truth in:
Exodus 24:9,10,11,12

BTW, the KJV states ... that they saw "the body of heaven in HIS clearness."

This verse supports the TE theological theory that states Moses had actually discovered the never before noticed, unseen planetary God Uranus.

The planet, which is a moving "star" against the branching constellation in the background, burned upon the trained astronomer's mind of Moses because he immediately realized he had scientific proof of another never seen God which woukd confirm the Jewish traditions of YVHV.


http://kofh2u.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/staffofMoses.jpg

Armed with Scientific evidence, he also was certain that Oharaoh and his wisemen could not oppose this news, if he got others, like Aaron, to keep pointing it out even if Pharaoah tried to imporison or kill him.

keypurr
August 15th, 2012, 10:52 AM
Keypurr you ask:

Why could not a holy Christ spirit enter a body? " What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?" (1 Cor.6:19)

Keypurr, "The Holy Spirit" I know (1 Cor.6:19), "the Spirit of God" I know (Rms.8:9) and "the Spirit of Christ" I know (1 Pet.1:11) - but who or what is "a holy Christ Spirit?"

You say that you are applying human logic to scripture. Better to "Hold fast the form of sound words..." (2 Tim.1:13)


Read!

I know that friend, I was trying to point out that the body of Jesus had been given that express image of the Father spirit. For it spoke through Jesus about things that were before the world was.

dave3712
August 15th, 2012, 10:52 AM
Dave you say; "all men have the power to become the sons of God" supports the idea that same spirit which indwelled Jesus can do so in us.


Read:All men do not have the power to become the sons of God.


Read


?

John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:


I assume you quibble on the technicality that men must receive what Christ has be preaching, understanding what the idea is, that in accepting Truth as the lord and savior in their life and in all mankind they become sons-of-God???

dave3712
August 15th, 2012, 11:09 AM
No friend, the image of God is a spirit like God is. You cannot see it. This image was filled with the person of the Father and the power of the Father. The only difference is one is a creation of the other. The Father created this image. Now the Father was no longer alone, he had a spiritual son. Christ is firstborn of all creatures.

He was made first and higher than any other created being. God, through his son Christ, created all things.

Peace

I read this in light of the present paradigm of knowledge which allows me to supply the word that would better explain what is said here.

The archaic connotations that fail to identify things like spirit(s) in terms now available to us and more easily related to make the ideas you express that are couched in vague ephemism of the first century.


Where we read "he," we need supply the word Truth, which is essentially what Christ was saying.

He is the Truth, an ideal.


"He (Truth) was made first (in the wake of the ever unfolding Reality that Truth images), and higher (more authoritative) than any other created being (i.e.; spiritual entity available to the mind).

God, (the almighty Reality of what actually exists), through his son Christ, (the corresponding image of Truth) created all things (that man's mind can relate to in the Real World). "

Kant explained this exact same thing when he spoke of the thing that actually exists, and our mental construction of it

Our mental construct of it is what we relate to, on the assumption that we have properly deduced this external entity from the sensory data we utilized to so do.

Lon
August 15th, 2012, 11:59 AM
It's what we are to become at our resurrection from the dead! On the last day!

John 6:39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

Joh 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

Joh 11:24 Martha *said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day."

We shall all have the express image of God on the last day at our resurrection! Then we shall be like HIM! (Jesus) our brother... the first born from the dead!

:Poly::sherlock:
Paul
Buzz, I'm sorry, you lose again unless the game is 'what I want scripture to say' or 'let's play make-believe or make it up as I go.'

Lon
August 15th, 2012, 12:01 PM
No friend, the image of God is a spirit like God is. You cannot see it. This image was filled with the person of the Father and the power of the Father. The only difference is one is a creation of the other. The Father created this image. Now the Father was no longer alone, he had a spiritual son. Christ is firstborn of all creatures. He was made first and higher than any other created being. God, through his son Christ, created all things.

Peace
Er...except for "express." Keep studying.

Grosnick Marowbe
August 15th, 2012, 12:11 PM
I know that friend, I was trying to point out that the body of Jesus had been given that express image of the Father spirit. For it spoke through Jesus about things that were before the world was.

Did you, per-chance make this stuff up?? Now, be honest...

Wile E. Coyote
August 15th, 2012, 12:12 PM
No friend, the image of God is a spirit like God is. You cannot see it. Peace
Where do you get this stuff? An image is the visible representation of something. You put your dvd into the player to watch a movie. The dvd has invisible signals on it which the player makes into visible images. The images are the invisible signals made visible.

Jesus is the image of God in that He is God made visible.

Comprendo?

Grosnick Marowbe
August 15th, 2012, 12:15 PM
Where do you get this stuff? An image is the visible representation of something. You put your dvd into the player to watch a movie. The dvd has invisible signals on it which the player makes into visible images. The images are the invisible signals made visible.

Jesus is the image of God in that He is God made visible.

Comprendo?

Now! That makes sense. Keypurr's stuff sounds "fabricated."

Grosnick Marowbe
August 15th, 2012, 12:18 PM
There is no "invisible," image of God! If you're making reference to the Holy Spirit, than say so! There exists, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. These three are ONE!!

Ps82
August 15th, 2012, 12:48 PM
Since the NT tells us that no man has seen God I can only guess friend. How many forms as God taken in scripture. Were these men seeing God or a form of God. God is a spirit, we have yet to begin to understand the power of a spirit. But it makes sense to me that only his express image would really see the Father fully. Only Christ would fully understand the workings of his God. I do not have many answers yet, but I still seeking Ps82, like you my friend.

Well, Keypurr.
I think you have hit the "nail on the head," but you just aren't ready to admit it.
You said:

How many forms as God taken in scripture. Were these men seeing God or a form of God.

Good for you Keypurr.
Yes, they saw a FORM of God.
Yes, no one can see God the Spirit!

Since both of these things are true ... then surely you can see by the rest of the evidence in scripture that God did have a created FORM which could be seen and did represent HIS presence unto the eyes of men and angel within his own creation.

This is the simple point, which is substantiated in scripture, that I've tried to reveal to people.

No one can see God the infinite Spirit... but they could see the FORM he created for his use. The Bible has called IT an image... and in Colossians 1:15 we are told that the image of God was the firstborn of all creatures (IOW, the firstborn of all living created beings). God used HIS FORM for his personal use ... to become Emmanuel - meaning God among men or God with us.

Ps82
August 15th, 2012, 12:55 PM
Sorry Dave,
In Exodus 24:9,10,11,12 there were 74 people who saw the presence of a "body of heaven in HIS clearness" at the same time. They spent some time in HIS presence while they ate a meal in his presence without his harming them. They claimed to have seen God ... and verse 12 shares the NAME of the God they saw ... The LORD.

You are stretching things to turn this event into the discovery of a star or another god.

Angel4Truth
August 15th, 2012, 03:10 PM
That "all men have the power to become the sons of God" supports the idea that same spirit which indwelled Jesus can do so in us.


?

John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:


I assume you quibble on the technicality that men must receive what Christ has be preaching, understanding what the idea is, that in accepting Truth as the lord and savior in their life and in all mankind they become sons-of-God???

Nothing to quibble about, it says it. To those who receive Christ, to THEM He gave the power to become sons of God.

All men do not have that power - and God is who grants it to the believer.

Read
August 15th, 2012, 03:52 PM
I know that friend, I was trying to point out that the body of Jesus had been given that express image of the Father spirit. For it spoke through Jesus about things that were before the world was.

Keypurr, Thank you for admitting that by such a term as "a holy Christ spirit" you are not holding fast the form of sound words.

The truth is not confusing like the doctrine of the trinity which no one can explain or understand, though some like to boast that they can (Psa.94:4).

The truth is easy to understand even by little children. "At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes" (Mt.11:25).

"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ" (2 Cor.11:3).

The truth is always simple. Your last post to me is impossible to understand. Here it is again:

"... that the body of Jesus had been given that express image of the Father spirit. For it spoke through Jesus about things that were before the world was."

Hebrews 1:3 describes the risen Son of God as the brightness of God's glory, and the express image of his person. Simple!

But Keypurr, you have imposed upon Hebrews chapter 3 "the body of Jesus", "the Father spirit" and "IT" which supposedly "spoke through Jesus about things that were before the world was."

Here "IT" is everybody, Keypurr's doctrine of the trinity "body, spirit and IT." Any one who doesn't believe in the great god "IT" roasts in hell!

Read!

Read
August 15th, 2012, 04:07 PM
?

John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:


I assume you quibble on the technicality that men must receive what Christ has be preaching, understanding what the idea is, that in accepting Truth as the lord and savior in their life and in all mankind they become sons-of-God???

Dave you said; "all men have the power to become the sons of God"
The truth is as you have quoted John 1:12 "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name."

All men do not have the power to become the sons of God. Only as many as received him, to them gave he power.

Read

dave3712
August 15th, 2012, 06:46 PM
Nothing to quibble about, it says it. To those who receive Christ, to THEM He gave the power to become sons of God.

All men do not have that power - and God is who grants it to the believer.

Let me re-phrase what could be misunderstood, the way you are doing, by saying that all men do have the opportunity to receive Christ as every proselytizing minister will tell you.

It IS in their power, then, to become the sons of God, as was Jesus.

dave3712
August 15th, 2012, 07:02 PM
Posted by Read


Dave you say; "all men have the power to become the sons of God" supports the idea that same spirit which indwelled Jesus can do so in us.


Read: All men do not have the power to become the sons of God.


DAVE:


?

John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:


I assume you quibble on the technicality that men must also use their power to first receive what Christ has be preaching?


////

Read:
Dave you said; "all men have the power to become the sons of God"

All men do not have the power to become the sons of God. Only as many as received him, to them gave he power.

Read


But that power to"believe in his name" is the power they have, isn't it???






/////

Christ does not deny anyone who will ask to be received as a son of god in his name.


John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

dave3712
August 15th, 2012, 07:05 PM
Keypurr, ...

The truth is not confusing like the doctrine of the trinity which no one can explain or understand, though some like to boast that they can (Psa.94:4).!

Once one grasps that Christ is the Truth, personified, Trinity is simple to understand, isn't it???


TRINITY:
Our Lord is (1) Truth, in whose (2) Spirit of mind we must commit our lives, in order to face (3) Father Nature, The Almighty, the Reality, within which we all exist.

keypurr
August 15th, 2012, 07:06 PM
Er...except for "express." Keep studying.

Hi Lon, long time no hear from you, hope things are ok with you and yours.

Express is a very good word to remember when discussing God's image. I will study til he takes me friend.

keypurr
August 15th, 2012, 07:15 PM
Did you, per-chance make this stuff up?? Now, be honest...

No, I am not gifted enough to make this up.

It comes from Pauls book of Colossians and Hebrews. Want to learn more about it? Read chapter 1 of both books. It talks about an express image of God. You must know that though.

What is an express image of God?

keypurr
August 15th, 2012, 07:18 PM
There is no "invisible," image of God! If you're making reference to the Holy Spirit, than say so! There exists, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. These three are ONE!!

You will never know truth if you keep your mind closed.

The Holy Spirit is not the topic of discussion, the express image of God is. Hebrews 1. Start there.

keypurr
August 15th, 2012, 07:27 PM
Where do you get this stuff? An image is the visible representation of something. You put your dvd into the player to watch a movie. The dvd has invisible signals on it which the player makes into visible images. The images are the invisible signals made visible.

Jesus is the image of God in that He is God made visible.

Comprendo?
No, an express image is a copy of whatevar it is the image of.

God is a spirit, that image would be a spirit. Christ is the image of God so Christ is a spirit. Now Jesus is a man, he had to be a man otherwise he went to the cross for nothing. But, Christ was in him. This same Christ that was with the Father before the world was created. I hope you don't believe that a 33 year old man created the world.

Now back to your dvd player, I hope your only watching church approved movies on it.

Peace Wile

keypurr
August 15th, 2012, 07:34 PM
Well, Keypurr.
I think you have hit the "nail on the head," but you just aren't ready to admit it.
You said:


Good for you Keypurr.
Yes, they saw a FORM of God.
Yes, no one can see God the Spirit!

Since both of these things are true ... then surely you can see by the rest of the evidence in scripture that God did have a created FORM which could be seen and did represent HIS presence unto the eyes of men and angel within his own creation.

This is the simple point, which is substantiated in scripture, that I've tried to reveal to people.

No one can see God the infinite Spirit... but they could see the FORM he created for his use. The Bible has called IT an image... and in Colossians 1:15 we are told that the image of God was the firstborn of all creatures (IOW, the firstborn of all living created beings). God used HIS FORM for his personal use ... to become Emmanuel - meaning God among men or God with us.


They could only see that form when it was put into Jesus. That form spoke thru Jesus. That form was a creation, that form is Christ. Since Christ is God's express image, he is a form of God. He is God's first creation and The Father was pleased that it contained his fullness.

Peace friend

dave3712
August 15th, 2012, 07:39 PM
Sorry Dave,
In Exodus 24:9,10,11,12 there were 74 people who saw the presence of a "body of heaven in HIS clearness" at the same time. They spent some time in HIS presence while they ate a meal in his presence without his harming them. They claimed to have seen God ... and verse 12 shares the NAME of the God they saw ... The LORD.

You are stretching things to turn this event into the discovery of a star or another god.

More than the 74 people saw this planetary symbol of the unseen Hebrew God in my opinion.

Aaron was teaching the Jews in Egypt and even gyptians who would listen to find Uranus in the night sky and watch its slow course across the night sky.
This was the power he also held once Moses had shown him which constellation to look at.


http://kofh2u.tripod.com/genesispic/kohanim/uranus.jpg



Then He said to Moses (by means of a thought or idea which occurred to Moses), "Come up" (the mountain) "to" (view) "the LORD, you and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu and seventy of the elders of Israel," (and physically see the wonder and revelation to which you have referred all these days in Egypt), and you shall worship (me, i.e.; this god now symbolized by this eighth [8th] planet, Uranus, the almighty and long an Unseen God, beyond those seven world famous pagan others).... "at a distance."...
"Then Moses went up with Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, and they saw the (Planet Uranus), God of Israel;
and under His feet there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, (the five moons of Uranus), as clear as the sky itself.

Yet He did not stretch out His hand (spreading his fingers apart to span the three signs of the Zodiac that would be traveled in seven year intervals), against the nobles of the sons of Israel; and they saw God, (the eighth [8th] planet, Uranus, almighty and long an Unseen God, beyond those seven world famous others), and they ate and drank (rejoicing in the fall of the ancient beliefs all founded upon a now failed Astrology).


http://kofh2u.tripod.com/genesispic/kohanim/Shinsalute_1.Jpg

dave3712
August 15th, 2012, 07:47 PM
No, I am not gifted enough to make this up.

It comes from Pauls book of Colossians and Hebrews. Want to learn more about it? Read chapter 1 of both books. It talks about an express image of God. You must know that though.

What is an express image of God?

The express image of God is also mentioned in Hebrews:

Hebrews 1:3
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

keypurr
August 15th, 2012, 07:58 PM
Keypurr, Thank you for admitting that by such a term as "a holy Christ spirit" you are not holding fast the form of sound words.

The truth is not confusing like the doctrine of the trinity which no one can explain or understand, though some like to boast that they can (Psa.94:4).

The truth is easy to understand even by little children. "At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes" (Mt.11:25).

"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ" (2 Cor.11:3).

The truth is always simple. Your last post to me is impossible to understand. Here it is again:

"... that the body of Jesus had been given that express image of the Father spirit. For it spoke through Jesus about things that were before the world was."

Hebrews 1:3 describes the risen Son of God as the brightness of God's glory, and the express image of his person. Simple!

But Keypurr, you have imposed upon Hebrews chapter 3 "the body of Jesus", "the Father spirit" and "IT" which supposedly "spoke through Jesus about things that were before the world was."

Here "IT" is everybody, Keypurr's doctrine of the trinity "body, spirit and IT." Any one who doesn't believe in the great god "IT" roasts in hell!

Read!

I still see the image was created before the world. The image was used by the Father for the creation. What glory did he have then?
What is a spirit? The older Bibles call it an "IT". If Jesus spoke of pre exsistance he was not in a human form. It had to be the spirit given to him at his baptism. Acts 10:38. No disrespect is meant by calling a spirit an IT. Understand I am not a trinity believer.

I don't think your understanding my thoughts Read. I believe Christ exsisted before the world, not Jesus. Jesus was given Christ. Thats when I feel he fully became the Christ.

Grosnick Marowbe
August 15th, 2012, 08:15 PM
You will never know truth if you keep your mind closed.

The Holy Spirit is not the topic of discussion, the express image of God is. Hebrews 1. Start there.

You actually meant, I would never know truth by listening to you!!

Grosnick Marowbe
August 15th, 2012, 08:17 PM
Keypurr and those of his ilk like to create their own, "imaginative" doctrines!! Their
beliefs are both bazaar and distracting from the truth!!

keypurr
August 15th, 2012, 09:50 PM
You actually meant, I would never know truth by listening to you!!

Maybe, your won't know til you try.

keypurr
August 15th, 2012, 09:56 PM
Keypurr and those of his ilk like to create their own, "imaginative" doctrines!! Their
beliefs are both bazaar and distracting from the truth!!

GM, I just quote scripture and then tell you how I see it to mean. You are welcome to do the same.

What is the express image of God in Hebrews 1?
Is is a created being? is is a god?
Is it a created god?

Here, I will make it easy for you to see.

Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Lets add this to it for effect:

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Give it some thought and tell me what YOU think GM.

dave3712
August 16th, 2012, 03:37 AM
I still see the image was created before the world. The image was used by the Father for the creation. What glory did he have then?
What is a spirit? The older Bibles call it an "IT". If Jesus spoke of pre exsistance he was not in a human form. It had to be the spirit given to him at his baptism. Acts 10:38. No disrespect is meant by calling a spirit an IT. Understand I am not a trinity believer.

I don't think your understanding my thoughts Read. I believe Christ exsisted before the world, not Jesus. Jesus was given Christ. Thats when I feel he fully became the Christ.

I could agree even more.

"It" is merely gender and supports that the spirit of Truth is what is referrred to in these passages.

Since Christ is Truth, and the son of god, also, the express image of that god, it follows that simple reasoning identifies the father as the ever unfolding Reality to which "it" corresponds, congruently, one-to-one.

I offer this to you that you might reconsider trinity, because, at no moment in time, can you distinguish between what is the truth and what is the particuar facts of reality.

dave3712
August 16th, 2012, 03:54 AM
I know that friend, I was trying to point out that the body of Jesus had been given that express image of the Father spirit. For it spoke through Jesus about things that were before the world was.

2x


Can you see that this was the same spirit as had indwelled Elijah 800 years prior?

The express spirit was here from the very beginning.
It appeared in a physial man when Enoch lived.
That express spirit was in Melzedek.
And it was in Elijah, and Jesus.

That express image is simply Truth, a concept we think of as an ideal or perfection of Truth.

But Jesus was the only one of these who laid down his life so that we would understand.
Jesus was the suffering messiah who was the physical man who had been indwelled prior to the metamorphosis of his Transfiguration.

Ps82
August 16th, 2012, 12:17 PM
They could only see that form when it was put into Jesus. That form spoke thru Jesus. That form was a creation, that form is Christ. Since Christ is God's express image, he is a form of God. He is God's first creation and The Father was pleased that it contained his fullness.

Peace friend

Your answer leaves me with more questions:
a.) Does your answer mean that you do not believe the OT scripture Exodus 24:9,10,11,12? You don't believe that they saw a body of heaven in his clearness?

b.) Do you believe that the form they saw was a super-natural presence representing the future fleshly form of our Lord Jesus?

I may agree with you about this comment?

That form was a creation, that form is Christ. Since Christ is God's express image, he is a form of God.

I also agree with you in this way. God created an image for his personal use ... and that image was to be used for manifesting the WORD of God, our Savior, in flesh in the future.

I believe that when anyone saw this super-natural image then they had seen a FORM of what would one day be seen as "the son of man / Son of God" in flesh. Until the time of our Lord Jesus no one had ever seen that FORM in flesh.

But you need to now address the truth in this verse:
Isaiah 43:11
I (God), even I AM, the LORD, beside ME (God) there is no savior.

So in Exodus 24:9,10,11,12 these 74 men saw a FORM God created
for revealing himself ... as:
Well, according to Christ who said that he and the Father are ONE, then there are actually two entities recognized as the ONE God.
According to all that is found in scripture about the manifestation of the both of them (OT and NT times), then the only conclusion is that these two, who are ONE, are:
a.) The Father who is God (manifested body of heaven)
b.) The Son, who is God's WORD, who is God (manifested flesh)

keypurr
August 16th, 2012, 05:12 PM
Your answer leaves me with more questions:
a.) Does your answer mean that you do not believe the OT scripture Exodus 24:9,10,11,12? You don't believe that they saw a body of heaven in his clearness?

b.) Do you believe that the form they saw was a super-natural presence representing the future fleshly form of our Lord Jesus?

I may agree with you about this comment?

a.) I think they saw a form of God, maybe Christ.
b.) Possiable



I also agree with you in this way. God created an image for his personal use ... and that image was to be used for manifesting the WORD of God, our Savior, in flesh in the future.

I believe that when anyone saw this super-natural image then they had seen a FORM of what would one day be seen as "the son of man / Son of God" in flesh. Until the time of our Lord Jesus no one had ever seen that FORM in flesh.

Christ exsisted before Jesus, I believe he is involved much more that I first thought.


But you need to now address the truth in this verse:
Isaiah 43:11
I (God), even I AM, the LORD, beside ME (God) there is no savior.

I think both the Father and his son are the saviours. As they are one in purpose. And one is the express image of the other.


So in Exodus 24:9,10,11,12 these 74 men saw a FORM God created
for revealing himself ... as:
Well, according to Christ who said that he and the Father are ONE, then there are actually two entities recognized as the ONE God.
According to all that is found in scripture about the manifestation of the both of them (OT and NT times), then the only conclusion is that these two, who are ONE, are:
a.) The Father who is God (manifested body of heaven)
b.) The Son, who is God's WORD, who is God (manifested flesh)

If Christ reveiled himself to Moses and the 74 would the wording be the same. Is Christ the God mentioned here? We know that Christ is a form of God, God calls him a God, yet there is but one God. Jesus says that there is one TRUE God, his Father, who is called the most high God. A lot of questions have been opened up to me this year, My thoughts are evolving arouind a little. I wish I knew Greek and Hebrew friend, I might be able to find beter answers for you.

Peace

Bright Raven
August 16th, 2012, 05:15 PM
Jesus is the Christ. Old Testament revealings are called Theophanies. Who was in the fiery furnace with Shaddrack, Meshak, and Abbednigo?

keypurr
August 16th, 2012, 05:21 PM
Jesus is the Christ. Old Testament revealings are called Theophanies. Who was in the fiery furnace with Shaddrack, Meshak, and Abbednigo?

I go alone with Christ, but Jesus was not born yet.

That brings up more questions BR, when did Jesus become the son of man? I bet you lay awake nights thinking of ways to keep me thinking.

Bright Raven
August 16th, 2012, 05:23 PM
I go alone with Christ, but Jesus was not born yet.

That brings up more questions BR, when did Jesus become the son of man? I bet you lay awake nights thinking of ways to keep me thinking.

Nope, they just come to me.

Bright Raven
August 16th, 2012, 05:25 PM
Here's one for you Friend. Who is it that is spoken of in Genesis 3:15


Gen 3
15 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”

keypurr
August 16th, 2012, 05:31 PM
Here's one for you Friend. Who is it that is spoken of in Genesis 3:15


Gen 3
15 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”

Most likely the same guy that became a pillar of fire for Moses and his folks. Or walked with Abraham. Or walk in the Garden of Eden.

keypurr
August 16th, 2012, 05:31 PM
Nope, they just come to me.

Take a sleeping pill tonight, I need the rest.

Paulos
August 16th, 2012, 09:59 PM
I think both the Father and his son are the saviours. As they are one in purpose. And one is the express image of the other.


Col 1:15a
He is the image of the invisible God...

Deut 16:22 KJV
Neither shalt thou set thee up any image; which the LORD thy God hateth.

If Jesus is the image of the invisible God (cf. 2 Cor 4:4 and Heb 1:3), then is it appropriate to worship him or is it idolatry?

If "an image of God is not God", then the image of God should not be worshiped, correct?


An image of God is NOT God, it is an image of God, a creation.

He is the firstborn of all creatures, a creation.

If the "image of God is NOT God", as you say, then to worship the image of God would be idolatry because it is idolatry to worship that which is not God.

But then you say that the Father is the express image of the Son, and the Son is the express image of the Father. If that is so, then to worship one is to worship the other. If you worship the Father, then you are worshiping the Son, because the Father is the express image of the Son. Likewise, if you worship the Son, then you are worshiping the Father, because the Son is the express image of the Father. But, if the "image of God is NOT God", as you say, then to worship the image of God is idolatry. But if you worship the Father, and the Father is the image of the Son, then you are worshiping the Son and not the Father. On the other hand, if you worship the Son, then you are not worshiping the Son but the Father, because the Son is the express image of the Father.

So which is it?

Bright Raven
August 16th, 2012, 10:02 PM
Col 1:15a
He is the image of the invisible God...

Deut 16:22 KJV
Neither shalt thou set thee up any image; which the LORD thy God hateth.

If Jesus is the image of the invisible God (cf. 2 Cor 4:4 and Heb 1:3), then is it appropriate to worship him or is it idolatry?

If "an image of God is not God", then the image of God should not be worshiped, correct?

Correct!

Ps82
August 16th, 2012, 10:58 PM
a.) I think they saw a form of God, maybe Christ.
b.) Possiable




Christ exsisted before Jesus, I believe he is involved much more that I first thought.



I think both the Father and his son are the saviours. As they are one in purpose. And one is the express image of the other.



If Christ reveiled himself to Moses and the 74 would the wording be the same. Is Christ the God mentioned here? We know that Christ is a form of God, God calls him a God, yet there is but one God. Jesus says that there is one TRUE God, his Father, who is called the most high God. A lot of questions have been opened up to me this year, My thoughts are evolving arouind a little. I wish I knew Greek and Hebrew friend, I might be able to find beter answers for you.

Peace
Our thinking is so close at times, but now I've gained some insight into your thinking that I've never noticed before.

You make a distinction between Christ and Jesus. I actually don't think I am opposed to pondering this idea.

By noting a difference between Christ and Jesus do you mean:
a.) Christ eternally existed before Jesus?
b.) Christ was manifested in the OT times of a super-natural FORM before Jesus was manifested in his day with a natural fleshly form?
c.) Do you consider Christ to be God?