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View Full Version : ARCHIVE: The "anty"christ is killing us!



ChristisKing
May 22nd, 2003, 07:03 AM
In both the Yates and Laney child mass murder cases a common denominator is that both were extremely religious and both had pastors who were fanatical about the dipensatioanl arminian rapture nonsense. Yates' pastor roamed the country with his family preaching arminian dispensationalism (the beast is coming) on college campuses, being at first welcome by the colleges, but then asked to leave due to his controversial tactics. Laney's pastor preached that the "anty"christ had arrived, the sunday before Laney stoned her children, preaching "you can see it by the Elizabeth Smart and Lacey Peterson cases as well as many other cases."

The arminian dispensational theology teaches that salvation is in your hands not God's, there is an age of accountability for children and if they die before reaching this age then they will go to heaven (with no scripture to support this), and that the beast and "anty"christ are coming and "indeed here already" and we must "bunker down" and wait for the rapture (again without scriptural support).

I think, before any more parents lovingly "protect their children from satan", that we need to speak out against this sensationalistic nonsense and the preachers who are preaching it. This false theology has seeped through into mainstream Christianity in America and it is literally "killing us!"

Obviously the women were mentally unstable already, but teaching people like this a distorted urgent world-ending message of catastrophic proportions in the name of "Christianity" is ridiculously ill responsible, reckless, and obviously very dangerous.
Yeahhh okkk, they have "the right" I guess to preach this nonsense, but at least Christians can begin speaking and preaching out against it.

I mean preachers bear responsibility for what they are preaching don't they? They are not above reproach, are they? Many of them are "self educated," "self-ordained," and basically unqualified to preach the gospel. But they wrap themselves around the church and scream they are unreproachable because "God sent them!" When in fact, upon a casual reading of the Word of God it appears that God is really against many of them.

I for one want to speak out against them!

I believe our salvation is in God's hands. I believe He will give faith to His elect of whom He has predestined before creation. I believe when He draws His elect to Christ that Christ accepts us as His and never loses us. In other words, I believe God is in control, not us!

I believe that the beast and "anty"christ spoken of in scripture were Rome and it's leaders. I believe that the scriptures teach the gospel and conversions are going to spread over the entire earth and even the Jews will come to Christ. This will result in great improvements over the entire earth in all fields and disciplines and nations as they convert to Christ. In other words, I believe God is in process of making the world better, and has not abandoned the earth to let satan make it worse.

I believe this is the theolgy of the bible, and it gives us great rest and an optimistic biblical worldview of the world. It also gives us encouragement to have and raise godly children to be used by God to bring the world into submission unto Christ, not to kill them to protect them from the "anty"christ!

billwald
May 22nd, 2003, 01:54 PM
I have talked to thousands of state certified crazies. At least half want to talk about Christian religion and many mention that some relative was a pastor, missionary . . . .

Shaun
May 22nd, 2003, 10:14 PM
billwald,
That's a nice twist of Argumentum ad Popularum you've got there. Does it come with Pina Coladas as well?

Prisca
June 4th, 2003, 10:09 PM
ChristisKing

You said, “I believe our salvation is in God's hands. I believe He will give faith to His elect of whom He has predestined before creation. I believe when He draws His elect to Christ that Christ accepts us as His and never loses us. In other words, I believe God is in control, not us!”

Then I guess it doesn’t matter what those preachers preached or what those women did to their children – it was all a part of God’s plan.

Crow
June 4th, 2003, 11:14 PM
Originally posted by Becky
ChristisKing


Then I guess it doesn’t matter what those preachers preached or what those women did to their children – it was all a part of God’s plan.

Heck, we might as well fire all the pastors, shut the site down, and rent out the churches. If it's all been pre-decided who gets saved, why are we even bothering? Really, if it's pre-determined who's going to get saved, what are we even here on earth for? Just fold everything up and ship everyone off to their predetermined destination in their preconceived states.:kookoo:

TheMessenger
June 27th, 2003, 03:19 PM
There are many antichrist's out there and have been since the time of Christ. See 1 John 4:3. The antichrist spoken of in Revelation 13 has not yet appeared on the world scene but he is indeed coming and may even be in the world today.

Clete
July 17th, 2003, 03:01 PM
ChristisKing!

Do you have a problem with Arminian theology, Dispensational theology, or both?

They are two different things ya know!

tuxpower
July 17th, 2003, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by TheMessenger
There are many antichrist's out there and have been since the time of Christ. See 1 John 4:3. The antichrist spoken of in Revelation 13 has not yet appeared on the world scene but he is indeed coming and may even be in the world today.
Don't forget about Daniel 7

ChristisKing
July 17th, 2003, 03:26 PM
I think both are egotistical man (woman)-centered nonsense that seek to glorify man and inflate our time as "the time" at the expense of God's glory and our childrens lives!

Clete
July 17th, 2003, 06:13 PM
ChristisKing,

I'm having a difficult time understanding why your obvious hostility is being directed at Arminians or Dispensationalists! While I agree that there are many irresponsible teachings and teachers out there, I don't believe that a rational case could be made to show that a higher percentage of Arminian believers are wacko versus any other group. In fact, it has been my experience with dispensational teaching/teachers that they are the most unemotional, fact based, and thoughtful of any theological group.

ChristisKing
July 18th, 2003, 07:30 AM
Clete,

My hostility stems from being saved and taught in a church for over 30 years the arminian and premill-dispensationalist theology.

I could never find the rapture doctrine that they taught in scripture so I was always being reassured, by those "in the know", that I would be enlightened if I just kept studying.

Well, I kept studying!

And not only did I discover that the premill-dispensationalist theology was unscriptural but I was amazed to discover that it was actually a relatively "new" theology. It was developed by a little retarded girl in Scotland in the 1800's named Margaret MacDonald.

I discovered that the premill-dispensationalist theology was completely unscriptural and was not the doctrine of the early church or of the church fathers. I discovered that what I had been taught for over 30 years as "absolute truth" was actually the babblings of a retarded girl that resulted in much damage to the church.

The most damage resulting from Margaret's visions that I discovered is the doctrine of the reinstitution of the sacrificial system in Israel for 1000 years after the rapture. This doctrine stems from their belief that the Israelites are the "true people of God" and us Gentiles are only a "by-thought" of God and that us Gentiles need to be taken away off the earth so the "true people of God" can begin worshipping God again!

Of course the "free-willyism's" of arminian theology are woven inseparably into and throughout this theology which steals away from Jesus Christ the once and for all sacrifice He made for all His people.

I discovered that scripture teaches that God had predestined to send Jesus Christ to die for all His people before He created anything.

I discovered that Jesus Christ taught that all who God brought to Him were "His people."

I discovered that scripture teaches the sacrifices of animals were only shadows of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and that His sacrifice did away with all sacrifices.

I discovered that Jesus Christ taught that "no man could come to Him unless that Father drew him, and that all that the Father drew would come to Christ." This meant that salvation was in God's hands as opposed to the arminian theology that teaches salvation is in mans hands. This truth prevented me from killing my children before they reached "the age of accountability" and "free-willed" to reject Christ. Instead I could now rest in God!

I discovered that God had chosen me and all His people to salvation in Christ before creation because He loved us and therefore we were and are not "by-products or by-thoughts of God."

I discovered that instead of the pessimistic dooms-day comic strip of pre-mill dispensationalism that scripture teaches an optimistic conquering of the entire earth by the gospel of Jesus Christ.

I discovered that the "free-willy" doctrines of arminians have resulted in millions thinking they have "chosen Christ" when it is obvious by their lives that He has not chosen them. What a great deception that has infiltrated the church to cause millions to think that by "walking down the aisle" and "praying the sinners prayer" that they have now earned eternal life.

So, call me hostile, but I get angry when people steal from Jesus Christ, deceive millions, call me a "by-thought of God", exalt man's will above God's will, and then claim to be "teachers called by God."

Maybe I should quit studying the scriptures and "just believe" and smile and say Jesus loves you.
:)

Clete
July 18th, 2003, 11:17 AM
ChristisKing,

Your emotionalism is overshadowing your judgement! There a many differing positions that Christians take on many different topics. None of these doctrinal positions can be rightly accussed of causing someone to murder their children. A wacko is a wacko not because he or she is an Arminian or a Calvanist but because they stop using their God given brain and start using their emotional state of mind to make decisions. The very road you are now on!
In other words don't let the wacko fringe make your mind up for you. Instead..."Come let us REASON together."

I won't take the time to respond to every point you brought up in your last post (primarily because it isn't necessary). Instead, I would love to see how you would respond to points that have already been made...

If God has predestined all who will be saved and none of them could possibly not be saved(sorry about the double negative here!:) ) then why do I want to spend the effort in attempting to convert anyone or is that effort predestined as well?

And if everything, every thought, every action that everyone takes has been predestined by God then why are you mad at Arminians? Didn't God predestine them to believe in free will? (or to kill their children?) Seems like your problem is with God not Arminians.

ChristisKing
July 21st, 2003, 12:57 PM
Clete,

The Holy Spirit has answered all your questions in the scriptures.

Search them and see for yourself.

The Apostle Paul wrote that he was excited to know that God had chosen him to bring in the elect. In other words the salvation of the elect is guaranteed because of what Christ did for them/us, as Paul wrote, and God determined to call and save them/us through the foolishness of preaching.

You ask why?

God says, to humble the proud.

You say if they are predestined they don't need Christ or preaching. But God says He predestined Christ to be THE WAY to save His people from their sins! I like God's way!

You say don't be mad at arminians just smile and let false teachings abound. I say ideas have consequences. And the idea of an "age of accountability" and "man as Sovereign over his salvation" is leading to the killing of children in the extreme cases, and the false sense of security of salvation in the majority of cases.

Either way it is dangerous to the souls of men.

:)

Clete
July 21st, 2003, 02:22 PM
ChristisKing,

With all due respect, if you're right then God has predestined me to believe in freewill.

He has also predestined abortion, child molestation, rape, murder, the existence of gay bars,the existence of alley ways behind gay bars, the activities that go on in the alley ways behind gay bars. Etc.

As C.S. Lewis wrote..."If God predestined anything, then surely He predestined everything."

Thank God Lewis at least had the presence of mind to use the word "If"! Or was that predestined too?

Here a few other things God must have predestined....

Satan, the fall of Adam and Eve, everyone prior to the flood, Sodom, Gamorah, Nineveh, Pharaoh (all of them), the Black Plague, the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, The French Revolution, George Bush SR, Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton, George Bush Jr, Asoma Bin Laden, 9/11, old men running down 40+ people in a shopping mall in California, babies being killed and/or orphaned by drunk drivers, drunk driving, cocaine, meth, the worst thing that has ever happened to you (whatever that might be), me making this argument, you being so mad at me you can't see straight!, whether or not you will respond to this post (you think you have a choice but you don't!) It's all been decided, before the foudations of the world were laid!

Predestined IN CHRIST!
Clete

ChristisKing
July 21st, 2003, 03:24 PM
Clete,

You and C.S. are right, He predestined everything!

ACT 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

ACT 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
ACT 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

REV 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The Holy Spirit clearly teaches us that Christ was plan A and never plan B! Therefore Christ was slain before the creation of the world, determined by God before creation, by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God to die for His people.

Therefore if God predestined Christ to die for our sins, then He must have predestined that Adam would fall. Now notice here, God didn't cause Adam to fall, Adam fell of his own free will (of which free will was also lost in the fall). But God planned it all. God could have created Adam not to fall, just like He did His Holy Angels. But He didn't.

But I'm sure you MUST know why?

Scripture teaches Christ was predestined to receive ALL the glory and not man!

If sin was not predestined, neither was Christ.

See Clete, you can't have Christ without sin! Now, to be consistent with your arminian man-centered Sovereignty beliefs you must conclude that Christ was never predestined and instead was God's afterthought. Gee....it's too bad God couldn't get it right in plan A huh?. I guess we just messed up all of God's plans by our Sovereign wills ..... huh?

Boy we sure all powerful aren't we?

Clete
July 21st, 2003, 05:24 PM
I am not an Arminian!

And your statements are unbiblical and blasphemous!

God is not the author of sin. He did not predestine Adam and Eve to sin or anyone else for that matter. And as for this notion of God not getting "plan A" right! There was no "plan A".

God wanted for things to be a certain way but those He wanted as friends chose to be enemies. He therefore reacted with a predetermined plan of action and thereby defeated His enemies!

Let me put it in the form of an analogy:

Which chess player would have to be better?
One who's opponent could only move where he had predetermined in advance that he could move, and therefore won every time? Or one who dispite allowing his opponent to move in what way he wished still defeated him soundly every time through skill, experience, wisdom, and pure power!?

And by the way, in case you didn't get it before. If you believe as you say you do then your beef is with God, not Arminian wackos. God did it eons ago before Arminian or Calvanist theology existed! And despite what you say, whether or not God predestined it arbitrarily or through "forknowledge", if it was predestined at all, then it is set in stone and we have no free will.

Resting in Him
Clete

ChristisKing
July 21st, 2003, 09:44 PM
Clete,

"God wanted for things to be a curtain way but those He wanted as freinds chose to be enemies. He therefore reacted with a predetermined plan of action and thereby defeated His enemies!"

WHAT?

:confused:

Clete
July 21st, 2003, 11:17 PM
God created the universe and everything in it. His purpose for do so (one of them anyway) was so that He could have relationships with people. Perhaps even friendships with some if not many. In order for this to be possible these people had to have the ability to refuse that relationship, to say "Thanks, but no thanks." Otherwise it wouldn't be a relationship!
In other words, love must be volitional (a choice). Without an alternative then there is no choice. Therefore without the possibility of hating, love cannot exist.
God knew all of this before He created anything or anyone. So, because there was about to be the possibility of rebelion, God predetermined in advance that in the event of humans rebelling, He (that is, God the Son) would be the sacrifice to redeem those who choose to believe (to love Him).

Deut. 30:15-20 "15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; 16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. 17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them 18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live. 20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days:..."


Sorry if I wasn't clear. I was in a bit of a hurry. Maybe this has cleared it up.

Holy, because He is Holy;
Clete

ChristisKing
July 22nd, 2003, 05:14 AM
Clete,

The verse you quoted was God's commandment to His people whom He had saved and to whom He has given His law;

"Deut. 30:15-20 "15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; 16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. "

When God saves us our wills are set free to obey Him. Before we are saved our wills are not free but are held captive to to Satan's bidding always.

2TI 2:25 ... if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
2TI 2:26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

You see Clete, God saves us before we can love Him. This is grace. He doesn't save us because we love Him.

ROM 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Mateo
July 23rd, 2003, 06:52 PM
Gentlemen,

Do you think it's possible that both things could be true? We have free will and yet God, who is unencumbered by time, knows what choices we will make and has encorporated our future choices into a plan and purpose that predates the creation?

wondrin' out loud

ChristisKing
July 24th, 2003, 05:48 AM
Mateo,

We all have the freedom to choose what we will do.

The issue here is that before regeneration we will always choose to sin and not obey Christ. We will do this because we want to, not because we are forced to. Therefore, Christ and the apostles said we were not free but instead slaves to sin and to Satan.

When we are regenerated our wills are set free and we will want to obey Christ. Sometimes we will obey Him and sometimes we will not. This is “true” free will.

Mateo
July 24th, 2003, 07:32 AM
Interesting,

On the one hand you argue that we have free will. In the next sentence you indicate that we will always choose to sin because it is our nature. This would appear to be tantamount to having no free will. I suppose this is no more incongruous a notion than the idea I put forth. As far a this spirit we now have beeing set free; if I'm reading the word right, we actually get new spirits to go along with new bodies. No?

ChristisKing
July 24th, 2003, 08:16 AM
Mateo,

I would love to claim credit for this idea but I can't. It's as old as Christianity and Christ even indicates that it is older than this.

JOH 3:6-11 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again. The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

Nicodemus said to Him, "How can these things be?"

Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things?
Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony."

Clete
July 24th, 2003, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by Mateo
Gentlemen,

Do you think it's possible that both things could be true? We have free will and yet God, who is unencumbered by time, knows what choices we will make and has encorporated our future choices into a plan and purpose that predates the creation?

wondrin' out loud

The only problem I have with this is that it is not Biblical.
There is NO Biblical support at all for the idea that God is outside of time.
This idea is based on pagan Greek philosophy (Aristotle and Plato) not the Bible. It is derived logically from the presupposition that God is utterly immutable (incapable of change). Calvanism is based on this same foundation. And it is this unbiblical/pagan foundation that yields the self contradictory statements made so far in this thread. For example....

"The issue here is that before regeneration we will always choose to sin and not obey Christ. We will do this because we want to, not because we are forced to. Therefore, Christ and the apostles said we were not free but instead slaves to sin and to Satan."

What God predestined, he predestined IN CHRIST. Anytime predestination in talked about in scripture, the context is always "in Christ". So God, decided before hand that He would personally see to it that certain things would be made to happen by Him concering His Son. The Body of Christ will, for example, be glorified. God will personally see to it that this happens because He has predestined it. Those of us who are in the Body are therfore also destined for glory. Not because we were individually "elected" but because we are in Christ. Let me illistrate by making an analogy...

If you want to fly to Dallas aboard an American Airlines 747. You go to the airport, do what ever the owner of the plain requires for boarding, and you board the plain. At that point you are destined for Dallas! Not because the owner of American Airlines singled you out and determined that you personally were going to be on that plain. But, because he predetermined, in advance that that plane was going to go to Dallas (something he had control over) and then you decided to board that plain (something you had control over)...see you in Dallas! :)

Similarly, if we want to go to heaven (to be saved) then we "get on board" the Body of Christ! Once we are "on board" the Body(something we are in control over) then we are taking the trip because God had predeterminded that the Body will be glorified (something He has control over)!... See you in heaven! :)

ChristisKing
July 24th, 2003, 01:39 PM
Clete- "What God predestined, he predestined IN CHRIST. Anytime predestination in talked about in scripture, the context is always "in Christ". So God, decided before hand that He would personally see to it that certain things would be made to happen by Him concering His Son."

ChristisKing- That is a cop-out in an attempt to avoid the numerous clear scripture verses revealing our election.

ROM 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

ACT 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

1PE 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

JOH 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
JOH 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

All these verses speak to the predestination of Christians!

Christ was predestined and so were we!

Mateo
July 24th, 2003, 05:23 PM
Clete sayeth:

There is NO Biblical support at all for the idea that God is outside of time?


But Mateo is reading...

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Not was, am.


Clete says:

Similarly, if we want to go to heaven (to be saved) then we "get on board" the Body of Christ! Once we are "on board" the Body(something we are in control over) then we are taking the trip because God had predeterminded that the Body will be glorified (something he has control over)!... See you in heaven!


And Mateo's thinkin':

I've only read one passage in Rev 6 and 7 that put any concious man or women in heaven for any period of time and only then for a "short" time (3 1/2 years to be exact but that's another thread all together). Everything else I'm reading points to earth as being mankinds' "long home". The meek shall inherit...?

Clete
July 24th, 2003, 09:01 PM
Originally posted by Mateo
Clete sayeth:

There is NO Biblical support at all for the idea that God is outside of time?


But Mateo is reading...

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Not was, am.

Perhaps I should have said that there is no real biblical evidence! I forget that people have an uncanny ability to apply scripture that has nothing to do with a particular subject and use it as some stunning proof text.
Jesus was claiming to be God here, nothing more, nothing less. He was not making commentary about the nature of time, or whether or not He was in or outside of it! All those around Him understood instantly that He was making reference to one of God's names and that He was applying that name to Himself and thereby claiming to be God. To apply this scripture the way you do, is to ignore the context entirely and without a predisposition to this way of thinking such a connection would never be made. In other words a "God outside of time" theology could not be logically derived from this text. You have to already be a Calvanist before this says anything Calvanistic to you.





And Mateo's thinkin':

I've only read one passage in Rev 6 and 7 that put any concious man or women in heaven for any period of time and only then for a "short" time (3 1/2 years to be exact but that's another thread all together). Everything else I'm reading points to earth as being mankinds' "long home". The meek shall inherit...?

You're right; that is another thread. That's why I put "to be saved" in parentheses. I anticipated that someone could object to the use of the idea of going to heaven (of all things). The use of that particular language fit well with the analogy I was making and didn't damage the point being made.

Seated with Him (in the heavenly places)!,
Clete

Mateo
July 24th, 2003, 09:47 PM
Beloved Clete,

Having come to embrace the word of God outside of a denominational setting, and having had no other formal religious indoctrination, I am regretably ignorant of the tenates of "Calvinism" and so am unable to make any sort of informed reply to your assertion that I am somehow in allegiance with his doctrine, whatever that may be.

Concerning the rest of your missive, I can only say that we are truly blessed that God has deigned to leave us at least one mouthpiece in this otherwise clueless generation.

ChristisKing
July 25th, 2003, 07:12 AM
Clete says,

"It is derived logically from the presuposition that God is utterly immutable (incapable of change). Calvanism is based on this same foundation. And it is this unbiblical/pagan foundation that yields the self contradictory statements made so far in this thread. "

But the Holy Spirit says,

HEB 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today, yes and forever.

MAL 3:6 "For I, the Lord, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed.

Clete
July 25th, 2003, 09:53 AM
Originally posted by ChristisKing

But the Holy Spirit says,

HEB 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today, yes and forever.

MAL 3:6 "For I, the Lord, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed.

Yes, speaking in terms of God's personality, or in terms of WHO God is, He does not change. He is always, loving, just, kind, etc.
Calvanists go another step further than this though. Calvinism teaches that God is UTTERLY imutable. That is, He CANNOT change in any way whatsoever. He can not get angry after having first been grieved, or He can not have a new thought, etc.
C.S. Lewis even said that "God can not be moved by love." (I think that he said this in his book "Miracles", but it may also have been in "The Problem of Pain" I can't remember for sure which.)
This teaching not only goes beyond the teaching of scripture but it goes against it...

The Bible teaches...
1. God became man. John 1:14 Was God always man?
2. God died. John 19:30 Was God always dead?
3. God rose from the dead. John 20:11-17 Is God still in the grave?

These are all REAL changes. To deny this is to deny the Gospel itself! And yet Calvanism IS based exclusively on the foundation of the immutablilty of God. The entire theological system is derived from it.

ChristisKing
July 25th, 2003, 07:40 PM
Clete,

God does not change. God was God when He took on flesh. He was 100% God and 100% man, this is a great mystery. But God never changed. He was, is and will always be. He is the great I am.

REV 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Also don't forget, Christ was slain before creation.

REV 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Mateo
July 25th, 2003, 07:58 PM
Clete:

I am not an Arminian!


Mateo:

I am not a Calvinist!


Elephant Man:

I am not an animal!


How about let's quit calling each other names?

Clete
July 25th, 2003, 09:50 PM
Originally posted by ChristisKing
Clete,

God does not change. God was God when He took on flesh. He was 100% God and 100% man, this is a great mystery. But God never changed. He was, is and will always be. He is the great I am.

This is a typical self contradictory statement made by Calvanists. You say that God does not change, then in the explanation of that statement (the VERY NEXT sentence) you say God TOOK ON flesh. Which is by definition a change! Then a second explanitory sentence stating that He (God) was both God and man. Well, this wasn't always true! Was it? Or are you suggesting that a man created mankind?
You ignore my point about the death of God (Jesus). Is God dead now? Or did He rise from the dead?


REV 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

This verse teaches that God has always existed (which is not in dispute). It references the past, the present, and the future, all of which make sense only within the context of time. This verse is evidence that God exist inside of time, not outside if it.



Also don't forget, Christ was slain before creation.

So you do admit that God was slain... interesting! Was this before, during, or after He was resurrected? Or is He still dead now?


REV 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

God intended from the beginning to provide a sacrifice to redeem mankind. He had this planned from before creation. This verse refers to what God had decided to do from the beginning. Its a common way of speaking, a figure of speech! There is nothing in the verse itself, that leads you to think anything about a God that exists outside of time! Again, this verse only speaks Calvanism if you are a Calvanist as you read it.


Resting in Him,
Clete

Clete
July 25th, 2003, 10:12 PM
Originally posted by Mateo
Clete:

I am not an Arminian!


Mateo:

I am not a Calvinist!


Elephant Man:

I am not an animal!


How about let's quit calling each other names?

First let me say that this is a very clever post! I enjoy interacting with witty, clever-minded people. Its very refreshing!:thumb:

I said that I am not an Arminian because it had been strongly implied that I was. Since I do not believe that one can lose their salvation, as the Arminians do, I'm excluded.

Are you not a Calvanist? If not, GOOD!

Calvanism has penetrated the Body of Christ to the point that nearly all Christians accept many of its precepts without understanding that it originates in Pagan/Greek philosphy.

I will try not to refer to you personally as a Calvanist but for ease of conversation I will still use "Calvanist" to refer to a person who holds the beliefs so far discussed in this thread, and "Calvanism" to refer to those beliefs themselves.


God bless you (and the Elephant Man!;) ),
Clete

Mateo
July 26th, 2003, 05:21 AM
I suppose what I was trying to suggest is that most of us tend to define and relate to others our beliefs as they relate to some "ism" of the day. We also tend to measure others by this yardstick as well. It is probably only natural that we, that most impatient of God's creations, tend to want to save time and verbage by pidgeon holing those with whom we deal with as quickly as possible. A sort of mental shorthand, if you will. Saves time. Problem with using this approach is that it leaves one without the tools necessary to understand or effectively deal with someone or something which operates outside this paradigm.

I'm fond of saying there are as many religions as there are people. Like fingeprints and snowflakes we Christians each are a little different, one from another, and yet are all similar in a larger, more important way.

I would not even consider myself a protestant. Mr. Luther, though responsible for much long overdue repair work on the shared Christian dogma of his day, was, at the end of the day, a Catholic and brought forward into his doctrinal creation numerous Catholic innovations that I am disinclined to embrace.

I suppose I could take the time to work up some sort of statement of the faith of Mateo to save everyone the time necessary to discover what my beliefs are so they might more accurately address them but, as I am continually learning and adjusting my beliefs to accomodate this process such an effort would have a limited shelf life and usefulness I would think.

If ya gotta stick a label on me how about "Aspiring Christian; A Work In Progress".

In the love of the Lord,

Mateo

ChristisKing
July 26th, 2003, 06:22 AM
Clete,

I don't know who you arguing with or what point you are even making anymore. lol! But I will tell you this, Calvinism is simply the pure gospel. It has infiltrated the body of Christ because it is the gospel in it's purest form.

As Mateo stated, the word calvinism is just a verbal short-cut to describe a particular belief. The Calvinistic beliefs are as old as the New Testament. They simply state:

We are born in sin and totally depraved. There is no good in us until we are regenerated.

We are saved unconditionally by the grace of God. He didn't save us because of any good found in us.

Christ died for His people.

When God calls us to Christ, we will come.

Once we are saved, we are always saved.

Paul was a Calvinist before there was Calvinism, so was Christ and all the apostles. You better watch out Clete, you may be a Calvinist too!

Clete
July 26th, 2003, 09:04 AM
Mateo,

The attitude expressed in your last post is commendable and is an attitude well suited to people who spend a lot of time on this site. There is much to learn here. The problem with many however is that they don't come here to learn but to preach. One who is an honest debater must be willing to be convinced that he is wrong, or at least not as right as he thought he was.
I do have a question for you...

You said "I'm fond of saying there are as many religions as there are people. Like fingeprints and snowflakes we Christians each are a little different, one from another, and yet are all similar in a larger, more important way."

Do you think that there is a correct belief system? Or are most people right? And, on what should a persons belief system be judged by (how do we, or can we tell for sure who's right and who's not)?

Clete
July 26th, 2003, 09:26 AM
Originally posted by ChristisKing
Clete,

I don't know who you arguing with or what point you are even making anymore. lol! But I will tell you this, Calvinism is simply the pure gospel. It has infiltrated the body of Christ because it is the gospel in it's purest form.

I'm arguing with you! (debating I think is a better word, we haven't gotten personal yet, so to say we were "arguing" might be an overstatment :) )
My primary point in debating this Calvinism issue is that you have a problem with wackos that kill their kids (as do I). You blame Arminian theology, but as a Calvinist, you have no ground to stand on because you own belief system says that Arminians are Arminian because God made them that way! Your problem is with God, not Arminius.

And as to the rest of your post...

I know very well what the five points of Calvinism are. We can debate them one at a time if you like. But my position is that they are all founded upon the "immutability" of God and they will fall apart if this foundation crumbles.

You have nothing with which to substanciate that anyone prior to Augustine was at all "Calvinistic" in the church, least of all Jesus Christ! It has been said the Calvin got his Calvinism from Augustine. Care to guess who Augustine got it from? I'll give you a hint... Aristotle and Plato!

And finally, I used to be a Calvinist. Not anymore! :D

God Bless you!
Clete

Mateo
July 26th, 2003, 10:19 AM
Past experience has taught me how easy it is to slip into acrimony when discussing one's beliefs. There is little more foundational or more sensative to our sense of being than our beliefs. Some of us have much thicker hides than other as well. To avoid unnecessary rancor, and in to answer your question "Is there a correct belief system" I offer you the following scripture:

1Cor13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

We see now as through a glass darkly. I have on numerous occasions been tempted to have this one sentence tatooted on my forehead. Yes, there is a correct belief system and safe to say if Paul didn't know it the way he should none of the rest of us does either. We are told to seek it but we are also told that we won't lay hands on it in this life but we should look forward to it when Jesus returns to vest us with new spirits and bodies. Paul has penned an oft quoted passage in 1Cor13 on this same subject and he finishes his thought the same way he did in the passage above. No matter how much scriptural knowlege we acquire, if we don't have love, we're just one more fool banging on a tin cup making so much unprofitable noise.

Another canidate on my forehead ornamentation list is this one:

James 1:19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak,

I have begun to exchange posts with a very studious, thoughtful and curious Messianic Jew whose response to my posts are positively glacial in comparison to what I normally see in Bible forum postings. Her answers bear witness to the time she had spent considering what I had said before she formed a reply. We would all do well to emulate she.

And last but not least:

Prov 18:13 He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.

Even in the written medium we tend to read the first few sentences, form an opion of what the person is trying to say and then form a response to that which we imagine they were going to say. Not good...


and then there's me...

Ecce 5:3 ...a fool's voice is known by multitude of words.

Clete
July 26th, 2003, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by Mateo
Past experience has taught me how easy it is to slip into acrimony when discussing one's beliefs. There is little more foundational or more sensative to our sense of being than our beliefs. Some of us have much thicker hides than other as well.


Even in the written medium we tend to read the first few sentences, form an opion of what the person is trying to say and then form a response to that which we imagine they were going to say. Not good...

I must say that I agree with your entire post. These two statements cought my eye in particular though. I have noticed that people are very emotionally attached to the things they've been taught. They seem to emotionally attach the issues to the person who taught them. The more they love that individual the less likely they are to ever part with the things learned from them. This holds true even if one is self taught. Its a loyalty thing, I think, but more unconscious than that.
In any case it's a strong part of our flesh that should be resisted at all times. Truth is truth. And while we can not know everything, we can know right from wrong and the more we get to know Him, the easier that gets.

God bless you my brother in Christ!

Clete

Mateo
July 26th, 2003, 03:26 PM
Clete says:

I have noticed that people are very emotionally attached to the things they've been taught. They seem to emotionally attach the issues to the person who taught them. The more they love that individual the less likely they are to ever part with the things learned from them. This holds true even if one is self taught. Its a loyalty thing, I think, but more unconcious than that.


Mateo says:

I'm there Clete. We gather to our bosom these notions and the persons attached to them and they become little mini-gods not to be questioned or "blasphemed" by anyone. If they've actually paid hard earned money to go someplace and learn it the hook is set doubly deep. Then there are those whose beliefs are family heirlooms bequethed to them by thier parents. We know momma and daddy loved us and they would point us wrong. I'll leave you with a quote I posted in another forum:

"A mind is like a parachute. It won't work if it's not open"

Frank Zappa - Philosopher/Composer

Clete
July 27th, 2003, 02:26 PM
Originally posted by Mateo

"A mind is like a parachute. It won't work if it's not open"

Frank Zappa - Philosopher/Composer

This is brilliant, I love it! :thumb:

ChristisKing
July 27th, 2003, 03:30 PM
I like this one better:

"And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth."

Paul of Tarsus - Apostle/Missionary

But maybe that's just the Calvinist in me.

claire
July 27th, 2003, 03:40 PM
Originally posted by Shaun
billwald,
That's a nice twist of Argumentum ad Popularum you've got there. Does it come with Pina Coladas as well?

MMMMM, Pina Coladas...:)

Our "path" to salvation is in our OWN hands , then it is the grace of God which grants it.....

Those who believe that there is a short list pre-prepared by God when we hit the earth running....are mistaken.....our works do not gain us salvation....salvation is a GIFT from God....but it is not bestowed REGARDLESS of those choices we make while we are here....

God expected/expects certain things of us before we can even be considered for "salvation".....

It is the truth....

:)

tenkeeper
July 27th, 2003, 05:05 PM
mateo,
you are a rare jewel indeed

We cannot cheat
the fate that sings
or destiny's bells
that ring so clear

Mateo
July 27th, 2003, 07:51 PM
tenkeeper,

Wet, slobbery kisses to you too.

In the love of the Lord,

Mateo

:chuckle:

Clete
July 29th, 2003, 09:43 AM
Originally posted by ChristisKing
I like this one better:

"And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth."

Paul of Tarsus - Apostle/Missionary

But maybe that's just the Calvinist in me.


You didn't leave me much to go on here but I think I get your point. If I'm not mistaken this is the common Calvinist refrain that things like predestination can't be understood with our "earthly minds", they must be understood with our "spiritual minds".

Predestination, (providence, fate, or whatever you want to call it) is not an uncommon belief among nearly every pagan group in the world. Every time a tragedy occurs, the papers love to say that "it was fate" or an "act of God". Aristotle and Plato loved the idea of fate. In fact they practically invented the idea. My point being, that you DO NOT have to be "spiritually minded" to understand and believe in fate. In fact it is Calvinism that is derived entirely through logic, starting from the premise that God can not change in anyway whatsoever. The resulting theology is propped up by some scripture, but because the premise is wrong, so are the conclusions.

Crucified with Him,
Clete

ChristisKing
July 29th, 2003, 01:40 PM
Clete,

I was just replying to Mateo's quote of Zappa.
:)



But anyway since you asked, the biblical doctrine of predestination is not presented as "fate" or anything else like that by the Holy Spirit. It is presented as God in Sovereign control of everything!

PRO 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

ISA 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

PRO 20:24 Man's steps are ordained by the Lord, How then can man understand his way?

PRO 16:9 The mind of man plans his way, But the Lord directs his steps.

PSA 37:23 ¶ The steps of a man are established by the Lord, And He delights in his way.

PRO 19:21 Many plans are in a man's heart, But the counsel of the Lord will stand.

JER 10:23 ¶ I know, O Lord, that a man's way is not in himself, Nor is it in a man who walks to direct his steps.

So many verses, so little time....

Clete
July 29th, 2003, 07:38 PM
ChristisKing,

You said...
".... the biblical doctrine of predestination is not presented as "fate" or anything else like that by the Holy Spirit. It is presented as God in Sovereign control of everything!"

Calvinist predestination docrine is exactly like fate in every way. The only possible difference might be that you say God is doing it as apposed to saying that some other god or gods were doing it. Otherwise, it is the exact same concept.

I'll take you verses one at a time.

1. PRO 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

This verse teaches that God interacts with and even manipulates people but does not teach that He does so by force. To say that God violates ones freewill using this verses goes several steps farther than this verse does.

2. ISA 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

This verse argues in MY favor, not yours! If you create light, you by default create dark. Dark is simply the absense of light. Light would be meaningless if there where no darkness. Imagine trying to read this post if it were white letters on a white background! You couldn't do it because the letters would effectively not be there.
The next segment of the sentence makes the exact same point. Peace (or good) wouldn't be possible without evil. In other words, you CAN NOT love if you can not choose to love. Without an alternative there is no choice. Without choice there is no love. Therefore, without being able to choose hate, love is meaningless.
The very definition of love itself testifies to the lie of Calvinism!

3. PRO 20:24 Man's steps are ordained by the Lord, How then can man understand his way?

A good Strong's concordance is a help here.
The word translated "Man's" is 'geber' it means 'strong man' or 'mighty man'. The word translated "man" is 'adam', it means 'an ordinary man'.
So then...."A mighty man's steps are ordained by the Lord, How then can an ordinary man understand his way?"
Sounds like "If you don't let God lead you, get ready to be confused about your life" to me. Or it could also be saying that an ordinary man is not going to understand the ways of a man who lets God direct his paths. Either way, it sounds good to me, they should put that one in proverbs. Oh, wait a minute...they did! :)

4. PRO 16:9 The mind of man plans his way, But the Lord directs his steps.

Okay, God is involved in your life. I don't dipute that. But, again, using this verse to teach that we have no ability to decide anything is going to far and says more than the verse does.

5. PSA 37:23 The steps of a man are established by the Lord, And He delights in his way.

Although, this verse is chain referenced in the NKJV with the previous two verses you quote. It seems out of place.
Again, the word used here for "man" is 'geber'. So, this verse teaches us that if we are good, then God will make us strong, and will be pleased with us. Sounds like another good candidate for Proverbs! :)

It is interesting to note here that the translators of the NKJV (as well as all the modern English translations) were Calvinists.

6. PRO 19:21 Many plans are in a man's heart, But the counsel of the Lord will stand.

In other words... We can't defeat God. Whats your point?

7. JER 10:23 I know, O Lord, that a man's way is not in himself, Nor is it in a man who walks to direct his steps.

This is the last of the verses chain referenced in the NKJV. And similarly, isn't as strong a proof text as a mere surface reading would indicate.
Remember the three most important things in interpreting scripture....
1. Context
2. Context
3. Context

This chapter is not talking about individuals, but nations. Specifically, Israel vs. Gentiles. There are definately things that God intends to make happen concerning Israel (as a nation) but this doesn't have anything to do with whether or not you or I have freewill.

Now, there is a simple (if not overly brief) explanation of the handful of verses you presented as proof that God predetermined everything. I presented, uncomplicated arguments to show that these verses do not teach what you thought they taught. Arguments that any novice, with a few resources can discover on their own. In otherwords there is no need to be a expert theologian to figure these things out. All that is required is a little homework.

I am going to give you a list of verses. I would like to see if you are able to explain how they don't mean what they seem to mean using the same types of argument.

Jer. 19:5 "(they have also built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings to Baal, which I (GOD) did not command or speak, nor did it come into My mind),"
I guess maybe those Arminian child murderers weren't predestined in the mind of God before time began after all!

Luke 7:30 "But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptised by him (John the Baptist)."
This one really puts a dent in that whole "Irresistable Grace" thing doesn't it?

Gen. 3:22&23 "Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"--therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden..."
Wasn't it already predestined whether he would take and eat beforehand? This verse presents us with a possibility. There is no room for possibilties in a world that is predestined. Its either predestined or it's not.

Gen 18:20&21 "And the Lord said, "Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave, I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me: and if not, I will know."
The important phrases here are "I (God) will go down now and see..." and "...and if not, I will know." Note the future tense "I will know."
I can't wait to see how a Calvinist explains away this one! Though I have no doubt you'll come up with something!

Okay, that enough for now.

I await your reply.
Clete

ChristisKing
July 29th, 2003, 10:21 PM
Clete,

Geber's, creepers,

I can't believe my peepers!

Geber's, creepers

I can't believe my eyes!!!

Clete
July 30th, 2003, 06:18 PM
Originally posted by ChristisKing
Clete,

Geber's, creepers,

I can't believe my peepers!

Geber's, creepers

I can't believe my eyes!!!


I like it! Very clever!
I'm not sure what it means, but I like it! :crackup:

ChristisKing
July 31st, 2003, 06:55 AM
Clete,

What my "gebers" peepers can't believe is that you, as a Christian, can say God doesn't know something and He is surprised by events. This is that old declared heresy of socianism rearing it's ugly head again.

It seems to have been first articulated by Aristotle in his Interpretation writings that the "gods" don't know the future. It has attempted to infiltrate the church time and time again over the centuries and has been rejected at it's every attempt.

Today it is known as Open Theism.

In order to prop-up that old idol of "man's sovereign free-will" again, open theist's proclaim that because "man's free-will is sovereign" God must not and cannot know the future.

Of course scripture clearly refutes this false doctrine by the hundreds of fulfilled prophesies, the plan of salvation itself and the plain teachings of the Word of God.

ISA 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

ISA 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

But your belief in the sovereignty of man's free-will and of God's not knowing the future is absolutely and thoroughly consistent. They are the heart and head of this creature and it cannot live without either.

Clete
July 31st, 2003, 01:35 PM
Thats a nice speech, but it does nothing to refute a single argument and presents some information that simply can not be true.

Aristotle was the first to teach that god can not change. His logic was that if a perfect god changed then he would have to change for the worse and would therefore refuse to change.
Since god can not change, the future must be set in place, otherwise god might be surprised or have a new thought which would be a change and that would be a problem for god.
Since Aristotle was considered at the time to be the smartest guy on the planet, virtually everyone bought everything they guy said.
This includes folks like Augustine, who before he became a christian practically worshiped Aristotle and Plato. Augustine interpreted the bible in the light of Aristotilian "truth".
That interpretation was passed on through Luther, who was an Augustinian monk. From Luther the teaching was picked up by Calvin who systemitised and formalized Augustinian theology which we call today Calvinism.
If you would like more detail on this subject you can go to here...
http://www.biblicalanswers.com/predestination/Predestination%20book.htm

Before reading the next few sentences, you might want to wrap your head with duct tape. That way when your head explodes, you can retreive all the pieces with less trouble! :)

Ready!

As for hundreds of fulfilled prophecies, I of course agree that there are hundreds of prophecies that have and will be fulfilled. However, there are some that were not.

The book of Jonah for example.
"Forty days and Nineveh will be detroyed."
Didn't happen! Yes, Nineveh was detroyed but not till years later and not in relation to this prophecy. In fact when forty days hit, Nineveh was in better shape than it had been in a long time. God was BLESSING Nineveh not detroying them, because they repented.

And Jesus...
Matt. 16:27&28 "27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. 28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."
There aren't any people around who are 2000+ years old, are there?

There are more, but that's enough for now.

Once you've collected all the pieces of your head, read the 18th chapter of Jeremiah. It explains how such things might happen and why.

And I would still love to see a direct response to the four scriptures I quoted. They do directly contradict a Calvinist world view. I say directly because the contradiction isn't merely superficial. The problems they present for you cannot be explained away by any valid means (use of language, figures of speech, or incorrect translation or the like). I would be willing to bet that you never even knew these verses existed before this conversation.

Resting in Him,
Clete

ChristisKing
July 31st, 2003, 09:06 PM
Clete,

I went to the website "biblicalanswers.com" that you recommended. I was surprised to see that it contains every single answer to the bible.

I noticed the "answer man" for this website is "the legendary" Bob Hill. As the website states, "Bob has invested over 50,000 hours in the study of systematic theology. Although he never attended a Bible College or seminary, his knowledge of theology has become legendary."

It's so rare to be taught by a self-taught legend in our own time. I now see why you have all the answers!

Clete
August 1st, 2003, 04:24 PM
Do you have any substantive arguments to refute what I have presented to you or will you need to resort to attacking a man whom you have never met and know nothing about except that which he himself has volunteered on his own website. If he is not ashamed of his background, why should I be. Besides, my arguments are not based on who I learned them from but on the bible(you might want to reread the posts about how people get attached to the theology because they are attached to the person who taught them).
In any case, I find this kind of tactic distasteful. If you can't refute my arguments then say so, then sit down and think about what that means to you and to your thelogical worldview. Otherwise, present something to me that has some intellectual merrit.

ChristisKing
August 1st, 2003, 04:46 PM
Clete,

You refute yourself, you need no help frm me!

ECC 10:14 Yet the fool multiplies words. No man knows what will happen, and who can tell him what will come after him?

Clete
August 2nd, 2003, 06:36 PM
Originally posted by ChristisKing
Clete,

You refute yourself, you need no help frm me!

ECC 10:14 Yet the fool multiplies words. No man knows what will happen, and who can tell him what will come after him?

WOW!! This so brilliant, I'm speachless. :rolleyes:


One more Calvinist bites debating dust!
Must have been predestined! :chuckle:

If you (or anyone else who reads this) would like to respond in a more substantive way, I'd love to hear from you!

In the mean time....as my favorite talk show host likes to say....
DO RIGHT AND RISK THE CONSEQUENCES!

Resting in Him,
Clete