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beloved57
November 9th, 2010, 07:41 AM
Romans 9:13


13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

How can it be sincerely taught that scripture teaches that God loves all men without exception, when it specifically says of Esau, God Hated ?

And I got news for you, He did not only hate Esau, but all the workers of iniquity. Ps 5:5


5The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

And they that work iniquity shall soon hear these words Matt 7:23


23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Yes, these and those in Ps 5:5 are the very same !

beloved57
November 26th, 2010, 06:51 AM
Jn 3:16 tells us of God's Love for the world, but never specifically states that God loved all mankind as individuals without exception, that has been read into the text by those who care little about the Truth of God.

And such a verse as Jn 3:16

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Must and should be explained by other verses of scripture that speaks on the same subject as God's Love of People.

First lets look at at an OT scripture that speaks to God's Love to a People Deut 7:6-8

6For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

7The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

8But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

We find here something extremely important about an immutable God and His Love. That God's Love is set upon a people He chooses look at Deut 7:7

7The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

Notice too that His Love is set upon the fewest of all people.. This should be a big eye opener for us, God Loves not the masses of mankind, for those He Loves are the few of mankind.

Remember Jesus stated about finding the road that leads to life that few find it Matt 7:13-14

13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Those few, are and will be those God Loved.. So God so loved the world, means He loved a few , chosen ones in the world, His own special ones.

Jn 13:1

1Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.

The jews would have known from Deut 7 that God's Love was exclusive for only some, but what they did not know was that some was not limited to them, for God loved some as well of different people groups, outside of their race; but His Love was nevertheless limited to a certain people, but just not to a limited location or race, it was the world at large that this special loved and certain people would be located..

oatmeal
November 26th, 2010, 08:14 AM
You have made an interesting point.

However, in the context of the entire word of God, God is love, His love reaches to all. However, not all have responded in kind. Since God is love, for him to say that he hates certain people is figurative. Surely, he is not pleased with the hearts of many.

God's love certainly flows most abundantly to those who love him back. But God's love extends to all. Salvation is made available to all. That is God's love.

Did God hate Esau or his works?

That there are those who live contrary to God's will is clear. Yet salvation is available to all.

God is love.

oatmeal

beloved57
November 26th, 2010, 09:40 AM
oatmeal:


However, in the context of the entire word of God, God is love,

To His own..

beloved57
November 26th, 2010, 09:50 AM
Its God's Love that moved Him to choose His People in Christ and make them a special people above all others Deut 14:2

2For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.

This is a exclusive Love for His chosen ! The Chosen are all those regardless of race, who were Chosen in Christ before the foundation Eph 1:4


4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

God Loved His People so much, He ensured that they will be made Holy and Without blame before Him in Love.. Thats what God's Love does, it ensures this outcome..

Nick M
November 26th, 2010, 10:25 AM
God can still love somebody while being despised by them. Take you for example. You godless piece of trash.

The Horn
November 26th, 2010, 10:28 AM
God loves all men? What about women?

beloved57
November 26th, 2010, 11:34 AM
God can still love somebody while being despised by them. Take you for example. You godless piece of trash.

Halieua Matt 5:11

11Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

beloved57
November 27th, 2010, 01:35 AM
So, we see specifically that God's Love causes Him to choose a people. That would lead us to understand, that the world of Jn 3:16 consist of those so loved and Chosen of God..

Gods Love = Chosen ones to be recipients and benefactors of it.

Those God Loved, also is specifically designated His Church Eph 5:25

25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

Now, is the church everyone in the world without exception ? It would be foolish to say yes to that question..

The word church is the greek word

ek klēsia:

It simply means to call out, the called out ones..

1 Pet 2:9

9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

The church has been called out of darkness, and secondly, into His Marvelous light..

Its not a half done process. Its a calling out of and into.

These are the objects of God's Love in the world, the called out ones, the Church of Jesus Christ.

Paul calls them the called as in Rom 1:6

Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

Rom 8:28

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Rom 9:24

Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Now nowhere in scripture can these things apply to all mankind without exception.

The world that God Loved is a called world. Remember one of the definitions for the word world kosmos is:

any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort

So the called of Jesus Christ as in Rom 1:6

Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

So the collection of the called of Jesus Christ is the world God so Loved !

This just simply cannot be denied !

depthdeception
November 27th, 2010, 09:00 AM
13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

How can it be sincerely taught that scripture teaches that God loves all men without exception, when it specifically says of Esau, God Hated ?

Try reading the rest of the passage. This has nothing whatsoever to do with the discussion of God loving "individuals." The writer's entire argument in this passage is that of counterpoint. The "Jew/Gentile" and "Jacob/Esau" dichotomy is what the Judaizers of the day appealed to in their insistence on the adoption of the Jewish cultus of worship by Gentiles who were being incorporated into the church. The writer here, however, debunks their claims, showing that God's purpose in salvation history has all along been to bring all peoples into God's kingdom, even the "hated" of Esau. This is why the writer later suggests that it is wholly appropriate that the hated, "not my people" (Gentiles, descendants of Esau, etc.) become "my people"--for God's mercy is not based on identity (election), but solely on the mercy of God which has, in the writer's arguments, been shown to extend to and encompass all peoples (Jew and Gentile alike).

freelight
November 28th, 2010, 04:06 AM
[INDENT]Romans 9:


13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

How can it be sincerely taught that scripture teaches that God loves all men without exception, when it specifically says of Esau, God Hated ?



Sounds like casting 'God' in the light of human feelings, emotions, perhaps making 'God' in man's image? Also, how could Real God hate anyone? - especially before they were born, or apart from anything they have ever done or merited? (unless the soul of Esau in past lives earned the 'dislike' of God, yet still...God is just and merciful, not willing that any perish). I dont think a 'god' hating for nothing but hatred's sake, is worthy of adoration or worship.



pj

beloved57
December 2nd, 2010, 10:31 AM
depth:


Try reading the rest of the passage. This has nothing whatsoever to do with the discussion of God loving "individuals."

So are you denying that Esau was an Individual ?

beloved57
December 2nd, 2010, 10:36 AM
If God Loved all men without exception, whats the Point of Jesus telling His disciples this ? Jn 14:21

He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

If God already Loved everyone in the world without exception, then this statement by Christ was a waste of time, and not really meaningful, since all who are in the world breaking God's commandments are Loved too.

freelight
December 2nd, 2010, 11:14 PM
If God Loved all men without exception, whats the Point of Jesus telling His disciples this ? Jn 14:21

He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

If God already Loved everyone in the world without exception, then this statement by Christ was a waste of time, and not really meaningful, since all who are in the world breaking God's commandments are Loved too.

Consider 'God' as Infinite LOVE. - Its immensity is greater than any human mind can fathom. This infinite Love includes all that exists, for nothing can exist outside its providence.

The verse above is relating the response of love, for those who hear the word of God. It is in the response of love that its full realization is known in the relationship of the persons involved. The infinity of God's Love still exists for those not yet responding.


pj

beloved57
December 2nd, 2010, 11:30 PM
Consider 'God' as Infinite LOVE. - Its immensity is greater than any human mind can fathom. This infinite Love includes all that exists, for nothing can exist outside its providence.

The verse above is relating the response of love, for those who hear the word of God. It is in the response of love that its full realization is known in the relationship of the persons involved. The infinity of God's Love still exists for those not yet responding.


pj

If God already Loved everyone in the world without exception, then this statement by Christ was a waste of time, and not really meaningful, since all who are in the world breaking God's commandments are Loved too.

Sealeaf
December 3rd, 2010, 02:10 AM
God loves all men? What about women?
Well if God loves men and does not say he loves women, then God must find men more attractive. If God is male that makes Him a homosexual. But we have no proof God is male so perhaps God is straight but female. :)

oatmeal
December 4th, 2010, 07:42 AM
oatmeal:



To His own..

Indeed the effect of God's love is most evident in those who love God.

God does not withhold good from anyone who believes, but not all have believed, have they not?

It rains on the just and the unjust alike.

Rain is representative of God's goodness to all mankind.

Not all mankind has chosen to love him who first loved us.

God's focus is on those who love Him. The others remain in His "peripheral" vision.

oatmeal

oatmeal
December 4th, 2010, 07:45 AM
Try reading the rest of the passage. This has nothing whatsoever to do with the discussion of God loving "individuals." The writer's entire argument in this passage is that of counterpoint. The "Jew/Gentile" and "Jacob/Esau" dichotomy is what the Judaizers of the day appealed to in their insistence on the adoption of the Jewish cultus of worship by Gentiles who were being incorporated into the church. The writer here, however, debunks their claims, showing that God's purpose in salvation history has all along been to bring all peoples into God's kingdom, even the "hated" of Esau. This is why the writer later suggests that it is wholly appropriate that the hated, "not my people" (Gentiles, descendants of Esau, etc.) become "my people"--for God's mercy is not based on identity (election), but solely on the mercy of God which has, in the writer's arguments, been shown to extend to and encompass all peoples (Jew and Gentile alike).

Well said.

beloved57
December 4th, 2010, 08:41 AM
oatmeal:


Indeed the effect of God's love is most evident in those who love God.

Indeed, because He first Loved them, thats what effected their Love to Him 1 jn 4:

We love him, because he first loved us.

All for whom Christ died for, will Love God, because His death shall make them righteous rom 5:19b

so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

That being made righteous includes being given a Love for God..

So those not Loving God, is indicator that God does not Love them, and neither did Christ die for them..

beloved57
December 23rd, 2010, 02:36 AM
If God Loved all men without exception, Christ words in Jn 14:21,23 are meaningless which are:

Jn 14:21,23

21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Again, if God loved all men without exception, that means that even though men do not Love and obey Christ can be assured of the Fathers Love, as indicated in Jn 3:16

beloved57
December 24th, 2010, 12:52 AM
This scripture and others like it prove that God does not Love all without exception Heb 12:6-8

6For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Rev 3:19

19As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Notice, Christ says as many as I love..meaning He does not Love all without exception or this statement would be meaningless..

Those God Loves He chastens. Now does He chastens the whole world without exception ? No He does not.

There is a distinction between those God loves and chasten and the rest of the world He shall condemn 1 Cor 11:32

32But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

Now that portion of mankind that shall be condemned at the Judgment, were not Chastened by the Lord, and scripture says, as many as the Lord Loves they are chasten, and they will not be condemned with the world..

So this is more scripture testimony that God does not Love all men without exception..

beloved57
December 24th, 2010, 11:07 PM
To teach that God Loved all men without exception by faulty understanding of Jn 3:16, is to overlook that God's Love is grounded in Christ and not apart from Him..

Rom 8:39

Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Thats right, we must not understand Jn 3:16 apart from Rom 8:39..

Now, with this in mind, If God Loved all men without exception in Christ Jesus, then all men without exception could claim to be recipients of this declaration from the mouth of Christ Jn 17:23-24

23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

This is a declaration that all True Believers in Christ were Loved by the Father in the same manner as He loved the Son, and that being before the foundation of the world...

Now, if those who recklessly teach that God Loves all men without exception, then they have all been loved to the same manner of extent as Christ has been loved even from before the foundation, and yet many of them so loved by God, will be cast into the lake of fire with the devil and his angels..

And many of them so loved will hear Him whom they were Loved in before the foundation say these words Matt 7:23

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

or these words Matt 25:41

41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

They will be called ye cursed even though they had supposedly been Loved by God in Him, before the world began..

All these conclusions are merited because men will not bow to scripture testimony that God only loved some of mankind and not all..

beloved57
February 7th, 2011, 04:38 AM
God does not Love all men without exception, because all whom He Loved are and will be more than conquerors, overcomer's through Christ..

Rom 8:37

Nay, in all these things we [Elect] are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

The word through is the prep dia which means:

through

a) the ground or reason by which something is or is not done

1) by reason of

2) on account of

3) because of for this reason

4) therefore

5) on this account


So, by reason of His Love for us [the elect] we are more than overcomer's..

So for God to have loved all without exception, then all without exception would be more than conquerors..Which certainly cannot be the case..

beloved57
March 8th, 2011, 03:27 PM
John 3:16

Those whom God So Loved in Jn 3:16, could not have been every individual in the world without exception, because if So, then that would mean that He Loved them with an everlasting Love Jer 31:3, it would mean that in Love He predestinated them unto the Adoption of Children by Jesus Christ to Himself Eph 1:4-5

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

In Love here can very easily be joined with the first phrase in vs 5, Love here refers to that Love with which God loves His Chosen Ones [ Deut 7:6-7] God's Love is grounded in His Choice of A People as we can see from Deut 7:6-7, and so if God Loved everyone without exception in Jn 3:16, that is like saying God has Chosen everyone in the World without exception, which we know is not True. In this Love, its such a Love that God's Chosen Ones will experimentally become Holy and without blame before Him, and that cannot be True of those Jesus will yet say Matt 25:41


41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Remember, the Chosen were Blessed Eph 1:3-4

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

beloved57
May 30th, 2011, 01:02 PM
Did God Predestinate all without exception ? Eph 1:4-5


4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Now some Translate the two words in love at the end of vs 4 and have them instead at the beginning of vs 5 as to read:


5 in love Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

The NIV reads :

4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he[a] predestined us for adoption to son ship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—

Here the period is put at the end of vs four after the word sight !

Now this being the case, and since God's Love here is the same as that in Jn 3:16, then we must suppose that God has predestined all without exception for adoption to Sonship in accordance with His Pleasure and will. So all without exception shall attain to The Image of Christ Rom 8:29

29For whom he did foreknow,[B] he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Now if all without exception are not predestinated unto this Image and attain unto it, God and His Love and His Predestination have failed.

Desert Reign
May 30th, 2011, 03:16 PM
B57: you are right. God does not love all men. That much is clear from scripture. However, it is also clear that God desires that all men be saved.

beloved57
May 31st, 2011, 12:06 AM
dr:


However, it is also clear that God desires that all men be saved.

Yes, all men that are Chosen in Christ. And they all shall be saved. And God does not desire the salvation of any He did not love, you speak foolishly.

Desert Reign
May 31st, 2011, 06:46 AM
dr:
Yes, all men that are Chosen in Christ. And they all shall be saved. And God does not desire the salvation of any He did not love, you speak foolishly.

You are welcome to your opinion. However, I shall go with the Bible, which states that God desires that all men be saved.

But, may I ask you something? You are clearly not ashamed of calling yourself "other". It is good that you are honest in stating that you are not a Christian. But I am wondering why you would want to be proud of that, given that non-Christians will not receive eternal life. What kind of hope can you possibly have?

beloved57
May 31st, 2011, 08:16 AM
dr:


You are welcome to your opinion.

Its fact ! For the God I serve !

beloved57
May 31st, 2011, 08:21 AM
Now if God Loved all without exception, then in Love, He predestnated all without exception. If He predestinated all without exception, then He must have foreknew all without exception according to Rom 8:29

29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Trumpetfolker
May 31st, 2011, 08:46 AM
beloved57,
I had not hoped to see you write anything worth repeating.
I was wrong. Please forgive me.
God created a world dominion over which He gave to Adam to run according to the wisdom that was from above.
He loved that world.
When Adam decided to submit himself to his wife and her deceiver, the earthly wisdom began to be a part of Adam's dominion and the creation was made subject to vanity.
Corruption filled the world which God loved so much. Not only that. Corruption became institutionalized in the kingdoms of the world by spiritual wickedness in heavenly place.
Then, the Word of God moved into a body prepared by God to do His will, and Jesus was born of a virgin. Laying His life down for the lost sheep of the house of Israel, seeking that which was lost, and, as the Lamb of God who took away the sins of the world, Christ was reconciling ALL things to God.
Now, we who believe on Him are His body prepared by God to do His will. Let us, therefore, preach the gospel to every creature.

beloved57
June 1st, 2011, 11:05 PM
If God foreknew all without exception, then He predestinated all without exception, if He predestinated all without exception, then He called everyone without exception.

Rom 8:29-30

29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

And if He called all without exception, then He Justified all without exception, and if He Justified all without exception, then He Glorified all without exception. This must be True if God Loved all without exception !

beloved57
June 6th, 2011, 07:17 AM
He called or named all without exception!

And if God called [named] all without exception, Them, He Justified all without exception.

Interesting also about the word called here in vs 30, its not the same word in vs 28 where the word for call is klētos which means:


called, invited (to a banquet)

a) invited (by God in the proclamation of the Gospel) to obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom through Christ

This word means more of an invite or a Divine summons

The word for called in vs 30 is the word kaleō which means:


to call

a) to call aloud, utter in a loud voice

b) to invite

2) to call i.e. to name, by name

a) to give a name to

1) to receive the name of, receive as a name

2) to give some name to one, call his name

It means to call by Name, or name someone, for instance here Matt 1:21

21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

So this call refers to God naming those that are His. Remember in John 10:

To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

So the called in Rom 8:30 is the naming of the Sheep, and so as we continue to look at those God Loved, if its all mankind without exception, then all mankind without exception has been named, all are His Sheep, His own Sheep. If that is True, then we have serious problems with what Jesus said to some of the unbelieving jews of His day, notice John 10:26

26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Also, we have a problem with Jesus statement here in Matt 7:23

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

This would be a flat out lie and contradiction if Jesus Loved them, and they were His Sheep once, because its written here John 10:14

14I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

So if Christ Loved them, He knew them as His Sheep, and that would make Christ a Liar if He states to them in Matt 7:23 He NEVER KNEW THEM !

All this is the ramifications of insisting that God,and the Lord Jesus Christ loved all mankind without exception, the scriptures lead to this conclusion !

beloved57
June 7th, 2011, 11:39 AM
Now them He called or named He also Justified, observe Rom 8:29

Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Now remember, we are following the thought that God Loved all mankind without exception. And since He supposedly did, then He must have in Love Predestinated all mankind without exception unto the adoption of Children as stated in Eph 1:4-5

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Now, with that connection, All whom He predestinated He foreknew Paul says in Rom 8:

29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

So we arrive at our next step in God's predestination to them He loved, and that is them He Justified. So according to them who teach God Loved all men without exception, to be consistent, then they must believe and teach all men without exception are Justified before God. The word Justified is the greek word dikaioō and means:


to render righteous or such he ought to be

2) to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered

3) to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

It means to be declared righteous.

So everyone because God Loved them, are declared righteous, there should not be one unrighteous person of all mankind according to this view. Everyone is righteous, or else God's predestination is a farce and failure.

Jordan Fontenot
June 7th, 2011, 07:57 PM
2 Peter 3:9
"The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

Keep in mind that in greek there are 4 words for love and 2 for hate and in Hebrew there are 2 for love and 3 for hate. All of your verses seem to be taken out of context.

Obviously God loves all men otherwise there would be some that are condemned with absolutely no shot at redemtion. All of your verses are in context about those who disobeyed God and were displeasing to Him because of that. They persih because they choose not to enter Christ and that is where the hatred (greek: kakos) comes in. it is not the lack of love but confrintation with God's love. They are the enemy but that does not mean that God does not love them.

beloved57
June 7th, 2011, 10:09 PM
jordon:


Obviously God loves all men otherwise there would be some that are condemned with absolutely no shot at redemtion.

Thats the case, some men are born that way and


2Pet 3:9 says nothing about Loving all men without exception, not even close.

The Barbarian
June 8th, 2011, 06:01 AM
If God hated all who break His commandments, then He would love none of us.


2Peter 3:9 The Lord delayeth not his promise, as some imagine, but dealeth patiently for your sake, not willing that any should perish, but that all should return to penance.

If the Bible is trustworthy, then God loves us all enough to desire that we all come to repent and be with Him.

beloved57
June 8th, 2011, 08:11 AM
Them he also glorified.

And finally, them that He Justified, them He also Glorified !

Rom 8:30

30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Notice that scripture uses the past tense here, them He also glorified. All for whom God Loved have been and will be Glorified. They were glorified first of all when they rose together with their Glorious Head, when He was Glorified after having been raised up from the dead. Remember when Jesus said, speaking of His impending death Lk 24:26

26Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

His Glory was entered into when He sat down at the Right Hand of God after completing the redemption of His People ! Heb 1:3

3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

This is of that Glory He had with the Father before the world was John 17:5

5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Now, when Christ was raised up to enter into this Glory, all for whom He represented also was raised up together with Him and also made to sit together with Him in heavenly Places Eph 2:6

6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

In this connection, lets look at Col 3:

1If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

2Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

3For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

I made this connection because its vital to the point I am making about those Christ died and rose in behalf of, were raised up with Him above where He sits at the right hand of God, and so do they.

Now in this connection, we should more clearly understand Christ words to Nicodemus John 3:3

3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

This word born again is actually being born from above, so it can be read " Except a man be born from above, he cannot see or perceive the Kingdom of God.

Lets look at at a few other translations of this verse !

ISV Jesus replied to him, "Truly, I tell you with certainty, unless a person is born from above he cannot see the kingdom of God."

GWT Jesus replied to Nicodemus, "I can guarantee this truth: No one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above."

YLT Jesus answered and said to him, 'Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;'


Its referring to a New Birth from above !

ESV Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

In other words, unless one is born again anew out from above, where Christ and they in Him sit at the Right Hand of God, they cannot see the Kingdom of God.

Yes, to make it plain, only those Glorified together with Christ [Rom 8:30] are being born again anew, being born again requires having been raised up together with Christ at His resurrection and being seated at the Right Hand of God in Heavenly Places Eph 2:

6And hath raised us up together[Glorified], and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Now, if God Loved all without exception, then all them He Loved have been Glorified together with Him and will be born again from above.

Those of you who insist that God Loved all without exception, are insisting [ though unwittingly] that all without exception shall be born from above where they sit with Christ on God's Right hand, there is no way around it.

But the truly enlightened know better, we know that all without exception were not raised up together with Christ and shall not be born anew from above, and so we rightly conclude, that God did not Love all men without exception !

beloved57
June 24th, 2011, 06:54 AM
John 3:16

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The World that God so Loved here in this text, has to be a world Chosen in Christ, and had to have a previous Union with Him or Else, there is another Love of God besides that which He has that is in Christ Jesus Per Rom 8:38-39

38For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

God has no Love for any who He does not consider in Christ Jesus. Now Does He consider all without exception in Christ Jesus ? What about the devil and his children, the children of the wicked one as per Matt 13:38

38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

Are they in that world that God so Loved in Christ Jesus ?

beloved57
June 30th, 2011, 05:07 PM
John 17:23-24

20Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

If God Loved all men without exception, this implies that all men without exception were in a Eternal Union with Christ before the foundation of the world.

This would also mean that the children of the wicked one, the tares as described here Matt 13:38

The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

That they were Eternally Loved and in Union with Christ before the foundation of the world. Such thinking is utter madness and blasphemous.

Its to say that God so Loved the children of devil as He Loved Christ !

beloved57
July 10th, 2011, 06:38 AM
Heb 12:6-10

6For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

9Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

10For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

Since the writer seems to indicate that some can be without chastisement, of which all them that God Loveth [see Rev 3:19] receives, then its reasonable to conclude that those who be without it, The Lord did not Love, and they are bastards as scripture says, and not son's [This destroys the ungodly concept that all mankind are the son's of God] For if all were sons of God, this inspired statement by the writer of Hebrews is a lie.

Jesus says in Rev 3:19 " as many as He Loves" He Chastens ! Why if He loved all mankind without exception, then His statement " as many as " is misleading and tends to deceive, why even say it that way Lord Jesus, if you Love all mankind without exception.

The phrase " as many as" is a idiom denoting a part as distinct from the whole ! Dividing something into parts.

It can denote a large number, but not all. One can be told to take as many as you like, but that does not mean to take all.

So this very Phrase, As Many as I Love, denotes that Christ does not Love all mankind without exception !

beloved57
July 18th, 2011, 03:55 PM
I know that God does not Love everyone without exception because everyone without exception is not and will not be quickened because of His Great Love. Eph 2:4-5

4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved )

God performed this deed for those He Loved while they were dead in sins. Not when they repented or when they came in Faith, but even while dead. In fact coming in repentance and faith are direct results of having been quickened or made alive.

The psalmist wrote once this Ps 80:18

18So will not we go back from thee: quicken us, and we will call upon thy name.

The calling upon the name of the Lord follows the quickening..

God's Love to those He Loves is not just a mere emotion, but it is also application. God's Love gives Life [spiritual] to dead sinners.

This was Illustrated with Jesus and the story of Lazarus See Jn 11:3,36

Lazarus was one for scripture says Jesus loved " behold, how He loved him"

Christ love was demonstrated by quickening Lazarus from the dead.

God nor Christ's Love could be of no lesser degree of that which they command of their followers. 1 Jn 3:16-18

16Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

17But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

18My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

Let us Love in deed. The word deed is the same word in the greek for work, its the word ergon and it means doing !

James using the almost same identical situation adds this James 2:


15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

Does not God's Love give those He Loves what is needful for their souls.

God's Love gives those He loves, and sees them dead in trespasses and sins, He is mover with compassion and gives them life from the dead. Love expresses itself in deed to the brethren.

Now are not those Christ died for considered His brethren ? Heb 2:11,17

11For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,


17Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Where they not His Brethren before they believed in Him ? Yes they were, thats why He was made like unto them to deliver them from their spiritual ruin and enmity against God.

Was He not the Firstborn of many Brethren who had not yet been born sinners ? Rom 8:29

29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

If Christ sees one of His Brethren dead in trespasses and sins, and He has all Power in His Hands, will He suffer His Brethren, whom for sure He Loves, to remain helpless in that dead state ? Cannot and will He not quicken whomsoever He wills? Jn 5:21

21For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. Certainly He will s to quicken those He Loves, He laid His life down for them. Jn 15:13

Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Scripture says that He died for them while they were yet enemies, and in spite of that, by His death He reconciled them to God, and those so reconciled [even while dead in sin and enemies] Shall be saved[Experientially] by His Life. That says it all.

It can read Shall be quickened by His Life, made alive. So, those who die in their sins, dead to God, alienated from Him, God did not Love them, nor did Christ Love them and Lay down His Life for them, if He did ,He would have quickened them, made them alive, saved them. Eph 2:5

5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

Ye see that ? The quickening results in being saved by Grace..

beloved57
July 27th, 2011, 10:58 PM
Jer 31:3

3The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

Those whom God Loves He Loves them with an everlasting Love, centered in Jesus Christ whom He Loved with an Everlasting Love Jn 17:23-24

23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

For God could never tell any Being He Loved them with an everlasting Love apart from Christ Rom 8:39

39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

And since this True, He draws all so Loved to Himself. He does this by putting His Spirit in them.

The word lovingkindness is the word checed and can mean Faithfulness or mercy. Its translated mercy 149 times in the OT

The word drawn denotes the efficaciousness of His Grace.

This refers to the Church, which at that time was mostly confined to the jews, and this Love and Faithfulness is due to the Everlasting Covenant or the New Covenant. Later in the same Chapter we have this : Jer 31:31-34

31Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

The Fruit and Effect of God's Love will always draw individuals to Christ, to find their Life in Him , which Life they had in Him as His Seed, being Chosen in Him before the foundation.

john w
July 27th, 2011, 11:35 PM
Romans 9:


13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

How can it be sincerely taught that scripture teaches that God loves all men without exception, when it specifically says of Esau, God Hated ?

And I got news for you, He did not only hate Esau, but all the workers of iniquity. ps 5:


5The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

And they that work iniquity shall soon hear these words Matt 7:


23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Yes, these and those in ps 5 5 are the very same !


"Romans 9:

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

How can it be sincerely taught that scripture teaches that God loves all men without exception, when it specifically says of Esau, God Hated ?

And I got news for you, He did not only hate Esau, but all the workers of iniquity. ps 5:"-bedeviled


Charlatan. This passage is talking about nations, not "predestined individuals."

Ro. 9:
8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

9For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.

This "word of promise" is that promise in Genesis 18:10:


10And he said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him.


..as Romans 9:9 repeats some of those promises. The will of God, which via scripture singles out and constitutes the particular, unique seed that was to inherit the promise made to Abraham.


Ro 9:10:And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

Gen 25:22-23

And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to enquire of the LORD.

And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.

Thus, the posterity of the younger shall be a nation which will be much more prosperous than the posterity of the elder. This is talking about 2 different nations, 2 manner of people, and not 2 individuals-Jacob and Esau. Jacob and Esau represent 2 nations.

Thus, Romans 9:11-13:


11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

The "children" here is referring to nations, based upun the context of what went before it, and what follows. Gen. 25:22-23 confirms this.

"the elder shall serve the younger"

The "election" is with regards to service, and has NADA to do with "predestination to salvation," and is talking about God's election of a nation.

Malachi 1:2-3...

I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,

And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.


..is cited by Paul to demonstrate that we are to "get" this passage as speaking about nations, not individuals. Jacob never exercised any power over Esau, nor was Esau ever subject to him. Just the opposite, historically, happened-Jacob was subject to Esau, and was terrified of him. First, by his messengers, and later, "personally," he acknowledged to be his "lord"...

"And he commanded them, saying, Thus shall ye speak unto my lord Esau; Thy servant Jacob saith thus, I have sojourned with Laban, and stayed there until now:" Gen. 32:4

and his servant...

"And he said, What meanest thou by all this drove which I met? And he said, These are to find grace in the sight of my lord.....And he said unto him, My lord knoweth that the children are tender, and the flocks and herds with young are with me: and if men should overdrive them one day, all the flock will die." Gen. 33:8,13

Read 1 Chr. 18:13:

The nation that resulted from Esau(Edom) was under subjection to the nation that resulted from Jacob(Israel).

Mal.1:2-5

The prophet was not talking about the persons of Jacob and Esau, but of their respective descendants, for Esau never said "We are impoverished........" Paul speaks of them in the same way.

Refractive
July 27th, 2011, 11:51 PM
[INDENT]Romans 9:


13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.




The literal rendering, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated," suggests an attitude of divine hostility that is not implied in Paul's statement. In Semitic usage "hate" means to love less; cf Luke 14:26 with Matthew 10:37. Israel's unbelief reflects the mystery of the divine election that is always operative within it. Mere natural descent from Abraham does not ensure the full possession of the divine gifts; it is God's sovereign prerogative to bestow this fullness upon, or to withhold it from, whomsoever he wishes; cf Matthew 3:9; John 8:39. The choice of Jacob over Esau is a case in point.

Matthew 18:12-14

If a man has a hundred sheep and one of them goes astray, will he not leave the ninety-nine in the hills and go in search of the stray?
13
And if he finds it, amen, I say to you, he rejoices more over it than over the ninety-nine that did not stray.
14
In just the same way, it is not the will of your heavenly Father that one of these little ones be lost.

beloved57
July 28th, 2011, 06:59 AM
john


And I got news for you, He did not only hate Esau, but all the workers of iniquity. ps 5

I already knew that.

john w
July 28th, 2011, 10:17 AM
john



I already knew that.

Translation": Punt, from the bedeviled one. Nations, Calvin/Clavin, not individuals.

beloved57
August 7th, 2011, 07:42 AM
1 Jn 4:8

He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

God is Love has been one of the Truth's that false religion has used to deny other Truth's about God, like for instance, what the bible sets forth as God's main Attribute, and That is God is Holy !

Ps 99:9

Exalt the LORD our God, and worship at his holy hill; for the LORD our God is holy.

Isa 5:16

But the LORD of hosts shall be exalted in judgment, and God that is holy shall be sanctified in righteousness.

Isa 43:3

For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour

This attribute so describes God that Isa says Thrice of Him Isa 6:3

3And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

Never do we read in scripture Love,Love, Love is the Lord of Hosts !

So God's Love is and must be a Holy Love, a Love that arises from His Holiness, a Love directed by His Holiness and Justice for sin and evil which He hates. God cannot and will not Love anyone or anything He views as Unholy, because He hates evil and is of purer eyes to behold it favorably Hab 1:13

Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he?

God hates evil which is to include wicked people or persons as individuals Ps 5:5

5The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

God hates the foolish, that is such as have not had Christ made unto them wisdom 1 Cor 1:30

30But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption

God has left them in their own foolish wisdom which is devilish James 2:14-15

14But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.

15This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.

They also are the workers of iniquity, emphasis on the individuals WORKERS of Iniquity, God hates them, because they are outside of God's Elective Purpose in Christ whereby their sins are not covered Ps 32:1-2

1Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.

2Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

They are not blessed of God and God charges their iniquities unto them, so they are justly called workers of iniquity, in contrast to those blessed in Election, and whom God will not impute iniquity to their Charge.

God hates any and all whom He did Love and Choose in Christ before the world began. Eph 1:4-5; Rom 8:39 Only those sinners God Loved in Christ are Loved by God Rom 8:39

39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

In the original the definite article precedes Love of God It is the only Love God has, its anchored in Christ Jesus our Lord. All those Chosen in Him before the world began are Loved by God 2 Tim 1:9


9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

These, though sinners by nature, are still viewed by God as Holy and without Blame before Him in Love Eph 1:4

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

They are already Holy and without blame positionally and legally,but God is fulfilling His purpose through Jesus Christ that they will also be that way experientially !

And thats why God can Love them as sinners, because He views them in Christ Jesus.

This however is in total contrast to those sinners He did choose in Christ, did not Love in Christ, these be the ones He hates Ps 5:5. So God is Love to those He sent Christ into the world to be a propitiation for their sins 1 Jn 4:10

Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

If Christ was the propitiation for their sins, then they would not be viewed by God as workers of iniquity, who obviously have their sins charged to them, for God does not charge sin to those He loved, but charged it upon their Saviour Substitute Isa 53:6

6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

That cannot include those who God calls the workers of iniquity Ps 5:5

These God has not been propitiated for by Christ, which if God Loved them, would have been !

So God is Love, but only and exclusively in Christ Jesus our Lord !

Refractive
August 7th, 2011, 02:32 PM
1 Jn 4:8

He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

God is Love has been one of the Truth's that false religion has used to deny other Truth's about God, like for instance, what the bible sets forth as God's main Attribute, and That is God is Holy !

Ps 99:9

Exalt the LORD our God, and worship at his holy hill; for the LORD our God is holy.

Isa 5:16

But the LORD of hosts shall be exalted in judgment, and God that is holy shall be sanctified in righteousness.

Isa 43:3

For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour

This attribute so describes God that Isa says Thrice of Him Isa 6:3

3And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

Never do we read in scripture Love,Love, Love is the Lord of Hosts !

So God's Love is and must be a Holy Love, a Love that arises from His Holiness, a Love directed by His Holiness and Justice for sin and evil which He hates. God cannot and will not Love anyone or anything He views as Unholy, because He hates evil and is of purer eyes to behold it favorably Hab 1:13

Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he?

God hates evil which is to include wicked people or persons as individuals Ps 5:5

5The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

God hates the foolish, that is such as have not had Christ made unto them wisdom 1 Cor 1:30

30But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption

God has left them in their own foolish wisdom which is devilish James 2:14-15

14But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.

15This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.

They also are the workers of iniquity, emphasis on the individuals WORKERS of Iniquity, God hates them, because they are outside of God's Elective Purpose in Christ whereby their sins are not covered Ps 32:1-2

1Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.

2Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

They are not blessed of God and God charges their iniquities unto them, so they are justly called workers of iniquity, in contrast to those blessed in Election, and whom God will not impute iniquity to their Charge.

God hates any and all whom He did Love and Choose in Christ before the world began. Eph 1:4-5; Rom 8:39 Only those sinners God Loved in Christ are Loved by God Rom 8:39

39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

In the original the definite article precedes Love of God It is the only Love God has, its anchored in Christ Jesus our Lord. All those Chosen in Him before the world began are Loved by God 2 Tim 1:9


9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

These, though sinners by nature, are still viewed by God as Holy and without Blame before Him in Love Eph 1:4

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

They are already Holy and without blame positionally and legally,but God is fulfilling His purpose through Jesus Christ that they will also be that way experientially !

And thats why God can Love them as sinners, because He views them in Christ Jesus.

This however is in total contrast to those sinners He did choose in Christ, did not Love in Christ, these be the ones He hates Ps 5:5. So God is Love to those He sent Christ into the world to be a propitiation for their sins 1 Jn 4:10

Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

If Christ was the propitiation for their sins, then they would not be viewed by God as workers of iniquity, who obviously have their sins charged to them, for God does not charge sin to those He loved, but charged it upon their Saviour Substitute Isa 53:6

6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

That cannot include those who God calls the workers of iniquity Ps 5:5

These God has not been propitiated for by Christ, which if God Loved them, would have been !

So God is Love, but only and exclusively in Christ Jesus our Lord !

It occurred to me that what you could do instead of this, which would be easier, is just take the English words you want out of the Bible (with citations, of course) and rearrange them any way you want to mean anything you wish and then you claim what you say is God's Word because it's all in the Bible!

And if any words you wanted to use weren't found, you can always just take the letters, one by one so you can make the words you need.

Jay Walk
August 7th, 2011, 03:33 PM
Heres a video for people who think God has unconditional love for every person that ever lived. Starring George Carlin.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xYua2kDCec&feature=channel_video_title

0xYua2kDCec

Ted L Glines
August 7th, 2011, 11:47 PM
Romans 9:


13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

How can it be sincerely taught that scripture teaches that God loves all men without exception, when it specifically says of Esau, God Hated ?

And I got news for you, He did not only hate Esau, but all the workers of iniquity. ps 5:


5The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

And they that work iniquity shall soon hear these words Matt 7:


23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Yes, these and those in ps 5 5 are the very same !


Can we take the "Myth" concept further and posit that all references were the written works of humans to whom God never spoke a word? You cannot provide proof that God actually spoke to anyone. We had human writers whose sources of knowledge included oral traditions passed down from some clouded Jewish past, and we had a newly founded Church which was presenting a humanized version of God. In their confusion, these writers were trying to put it all together into something which would make sense when preached from a pulpit. And sometimes they became creative with this. Example: The writings about John the Baptist baptising Jesus when, in fact, both Jesus and John were Jews and Jews never did practice Baptism. This story was a blatant fabrication meant to move Jesus toward a messianic stance. The best you can say for it is ... it worked good enough so that we may argue about it today. In light of reason, quoting from human-written scriptures is a slippery slope, indeed. To say that God loved all men, or to say that God loved some men and hated others, was an agenda-driven attempt to humanize an omnipotent God and recast Him into a weakened father-figure. The logical purpose of this fabrication was to remove power from God and vest it in the Church. Bad move ... for we the sheeple ... for it makes us followers of myth rather than truth.

Ktoyou
August 7th, 2011, 11:54 PM
"The Myth of saying that God Loved all men in the world without exception ! -"

Beloved57 is a myth, we hope? ;)

beloved57
August 10th, 2011, 10:33 PM
Ezk 16:6-8

6And when I passed by thee, and saw thee polluted in thine own blood, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live; yea, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live.

7I have caused thee to multiply as the bud of the field, and thou hast increased and waxen great, and thou art come to excellent ornaments: thy breasts are fashioned, and thine hair is grown, whereas thou wast naked and bare.

8Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord GOD, and thou becamest mine.

All whom God Loves, He Loves in Christ Jesus Rom 8:39

39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

And because of this Love, He sent Him into the world that we might live through Him. 1 Jn 4:9

In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

There comes a time of Love for each one of us when God says Live. Thats because we were dead in our Trespasses and Sins Eph 2:1; Col 2:13, because of God's Great Love with which He Loved us, He made us Alive ! Eph 2:4-5

4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved )

God says to us if Christ died for us, Live ! Its your time of Love ! That is what God's Love accomplished through Christ Jesus our Lord. Through His Covenant Blood, the Blood of the Covenant Zech 9:11

As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.

All for whom God Loved in Christ, shall be made to Live, and that everlastingly. None who will perish in their sins, was Loved by God !

beloved57
August 15th, 2011, 06:29 PM
The Love of God which is in Christ Jesus Our Lord !

Rom 8:39

39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Those who are not of the Elect, are those who are hated as Esau [Rom 9:13], they are alienated from God's Love and always will be , that is why they shall have their portion in the Lake of Fire, or as Jesus states, the Damnation of Hell Matt 23:33

Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Hell was made especially for them ! and they were made especially for hell..

Now These men here Jesus was speaking to, could not be those whom God Loved in Christ Jesus, stating that they cannot escape the damnation of Hell.

Also, If God's Love is in Christ Jesus, then how is it possible to be Loved of God as per Jn 3:16 without being Chosen in Christ before the foundation of the World ?

beloved57
August 31st, 2011, 09:50 PM
1 Jn 3:1

1Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons [children] of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

We know or should know that God does not Love all men without exception because all men without exception are not the children of God ! Those whom God Loved in Jn 3:16 are the same ones in 1 Jn 3:1. Now God bestowing His Love on the me in 1 Jn 3:1 constitutes them children of God, cannot be based upon believing, when Jn 3:16 is not based upon believing nor is Rom 5:8

8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners [unbelievers], Christ died for us.

God does not love one one way when we are unregenerate, then after conversion love us another way. The same ones God Loved and bestowed His Love on in 1 Jn 3:1 are the same as in Rom 5:8, and they have always been Children of God. This is intimated in Jn 11:52

52And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one[B] the children of God that were scattered abroad.

Now, the Children of God are also the Children of Promise Rom 9:8

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Now Isaac was of the Children of Promise Gal 4:28

28Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

Now did Isaac have to be a believer to be a Child of Promise ? The answer is no. He was a Child of promise before his natural birth.

And its the same with all Children of promise, who are also Children of God !

Now to say that all men without exception are Children of God, would be to lie against the Truth which clearly designates some men children of the devil 1 Jn 3:10

10In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

So scripture is quite conclusive that God Loved His Children, and all men without exception are not God's Children, Children of Promise , so God could not have Loved all men without exception !

beloved57
September 10th, 2011, 07:47 AM
We know that Christ did not Love all men without exception because scripture teaches that those He did Loved that He washed them with His blood and made them a king and priest unto God. Rev 1:5-7

5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

7Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

So these Three go together, Christ Loved, washed and made ! These three actions of Christ are not dependent upon the freewill of men, but attributed only to Him doing His Father's will and to Him alone belongs Glory and Dominion forever and ever !

Now unless we believe that Christ has washed all men without exception from their sins, and made all men without exception Kings and Priest unto God His Father, then there is no biblical warrant to believe nor teach that Christ, Loved all men without exception !

beloved57
September 10th, 2011, 11:53 PM
Many have tried to use this verse to teach the lie that God loved all of mankind, but that is not even what the verse states. Salvation and the Love of God were not privileged secluded to the ethnic jews. Through Christ, the middle wall of partition is broken down Eph 2:11-16

by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Gal 3:28-29

28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Col 3:11

11Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

There simply is no national, or political distinctions in the New Covenant, which is in Christ Blood 1 Cor 11:25

25After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

beloved57
September 11th, 2011, 11:47 AM
Now many today in their fleshly religious zeal, void of the Spirit,have imposed a most unscriptural meaning to the word world in Jn 3:16, they erroneously have it meaning all men and women without exception or the whole human race, but thats not what Jn 3:16 states or means. This fabrication does not pass the test of scripture. For example Jn 1:10

10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

In this one verse we find the word world [kosmos] with three different meanings. The first instance means, He lived on this earth, He tabernacled among men, Second it means He created all things, He created the orderly arrangement, and third, the word world primarily means the Jewish world were He conducted His Ministry, and who hated Him without cause. So in this one verse alone we have diverse meanings,none of which honestly means all mankind without exception. Wherever the word world is found it should be subject to its context, a word should not dictated a subject, but the subject the word.

Ben Masada
September 11th, 2011, 01:13 PM
"The Myth of saying that God Loved all men in the world without exception ! -"

Beloved57 is a myth, we hope? ;)

Another Aspect of John 3:16

And God so loved the world that, to teach Mankind what love is, He became a Jew. That's a truth that every single Christian believes in it,
but refuses to behave as such.

To start with the NT and its false charge that Jews have killed Jesus, a serial persecution has been developed since the Church got organized by Constatine and up to this very day, through pogroms, blood libels, Crusades, Inquisition, and last but not least, the Holocaust of only 70 years ago, when millions of Jewish lives have been destroyed. I guess God made a mistake. Mankind was not ready to be taught what love is.
Ben

Apple7
September 11th, 2011, 02:35 PM
To start with the NT and its false charge that Jews have killed Jesus, a serial persecution has been developed since the Church got organized by Constatine and up to this very day, through pogroms, blood libels, Crusades, Inquisition, and last but not least, the Holocaust of only 70 years ago, when millions of Jewish lives have been destroyed. I guess God made a mistake. Mankind was not ready to be taught what love is.
Ben

False charge?

Hardly.


God addressing the Jews

υμεις εκ του πατρος του διαβολου εστε και τας επιθυμιας του πατρος υμων θελετε ποιειν εκεινος ανθρωποκτονος ην απ αρχης και εν τη αληθεια ουκ εστηκεν οτι ουκ εστιν αληθεια εν αυτω οταν λαλη το ψευδος εκ των ιδιων λαλει οτι ψευστης εστιν και ο πατηρ αυτουεγω δε οτι την αληθειαν λεγω ου πιστευετε μοι

umeis ek tou patros tau diabolou este kai tas epithumias tou patros umōn thelete poiein ekeinos anthrōpoktonos ēn ap archēs kai en tē alētheia ouk estēken oti ouk estin alētheia en autō otan lalē to pseudos ek tōn idiōn lalei oti pseustēs estin kai ho patēr autou egō de oti tēn alētheian legō ou pisteuete moi

You are from the Devil as the father, and the lusts of your father you desire to do. That one was a murderer from the beginning, and he has not stood in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own, because he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me. (John 8.44 – 45)


Here we have Jesus, Himself, proclaiming to the unbelieving Jews, in no uncertain terms, that they are from the Devil.

Jews who do not acknowledge Jesus as The Truth are doing the Devil’s work – they are following the Devil’s desires (epithumias), of which, he has been a murderer of man (anthrōpoktonos) from the very beginning.

Jesus had already rightly labeled Jews as murderers and liars long before they killed Him.

beloved57
September 12th, 2011, 09:31 AM
Now lets look at Jn 15:18-19

18If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.

19If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

In these Two verses the word world is used several times but it is limited to the meaning of those who persecuted them who stood for the Truth ! The word is never used here as all mankind without exception !

beloved57
September 18th, 2011, 08:23 AM
Lets look at the word world [kosmos] in John 17:9

9I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

The world here surely does not mean the same as it does in Jn 3:16, why would Christ deny it to be the object of His Intercession and Prayer ?

The world here are all those among mankind that do not belong to God, yes He is still their Creator, but He is not their Covenant God, they belong to the wicked one, the Devil, and they were never given to Christ in Election as His Sheep. The world in Jn 3:16 is the World that God gave to the Son as in those He prays for in Jn 17:9 " those thou hast given me"

So, those God the Father has given the Son which the Son does Pray for is a World Jn 3:16 and those whom the Father hath not given the Son which the Son does not Pray for as in Jn 17:9 is a world.

beloved57
September 18th, 2011, 09:28 AM
We are looking at the different ways the word world is used , and exposing the negligence of all those who render Jn 3:16, as meaning that God there is being said to Love all men without exception, when the verse does not say that, its a lie !

Rom 1:8

8First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

This actually is more of what John 3:16 means, that God Loved men and women throughout the whole world.

Now here in Rom 1:8 the word world would be limited to the Roman Empire or that region. People in Egypt at that time could care less about their Faith in Christ Jesus and probably never heard of Him. It is even doubtful that every single individual without exception in the Roman Empire is even included in this statement !


Lets look at also Rom 11:12

12Now if the fall of them[ Ethnic Israel] be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

The word world here means the Gentiles, and it is even restricted in that sense as well, to be only the Elect Gentiles in the world..

Delmar
September 18th, 2011, 03:33 PM
depth:



So are you denying that Esau was an Individual ?

No, I think he was pointing out that you are a moron.

beloved57
October 10th, 2011, 06:30 PM
God has no Love for any man except His Saving and Electing Love, whereby He actually saves Chosen sinners through Christ. Why speak of God's Love and neglect to mention as it is declared in scripture, that it is discriminating Elective Love Rom 9:11-13 ; Deut 7:6-7

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.



6For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

7The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

Now who can miss this grand Truth that God's Love here is the foundation for choosing a People[Israel], His Purpose according to Election!

Paul writes in Eph 1:3-5, that those Chosen in Christ were predestined in Love.

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Now is this Love of God any different from His Love to that People in Deut 7:7 or Jn 3:16 ? Are the objects of this Love different ? No it is not. In all these God's Love is toward a Chosen People Deut 7:7 or Jn 3:16. So in Jn 3:16 God's Love is towards a Chosen People in the World like He said in Deut 7:7, its the same People, but now in a different dispensation and generation !

Jordan Fontenot
October 20th, 2011, 10:04 PM
2 Peter 3:9 however
Matthew 25: 41-46 and Matthew 7:21

So do what Jesus says and you make it. Don't and you won't

beloved57
October 27th, 2011, 12:27 AM
Then are ye bastards and not sons !

Heb 12:6-8

6For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

If the Lord chastens all whom He loves, and if He Loves all men without exception, then all men without exception are chastened of the Lord. Now if that is True, then why did this inspired writer of Hebrews say, If ye be without chastening, then are ye bastards and NOT Sons ! How could he write such a comment if He believed that God Loved all men without exception ? If he believed that, then was he careless and foolish to say some could be bastards and not Son. For how could a possibility of that even happen,if God Loved all men without exception ! The reason why he said it however, is because he knew that God did not Love all men without exception.

beloved57
October 29th, 2011, 09:55 PM
Many False teachers today have corrupted and used God's word deceitfully by quoting Jn 3:16 as stating that God Loves all men, of all time without exception, and that believing in Christ here is an condition man must meet in order to get saved ! What utter Falsehood. For Jn 3:16 is stating no more than God Loved those in the world who are believing in His Son and that they should not perish. This is a Testimony that God Loved all those in the world who are believing or who are believers or shall be made believers as in Jn 17:20. So in this verse Jn 3:16, there is no testimony at all that God Loves any who are not or will become believers. Only believing in Christ is proof that God Loved someone.

Ben Masada
October 30th, 2011, 08:53 AM
False charge?

Hardly.


God addressing the Jews

υμεις εκ του πατρος του διαβολου εστε και τας επιθυμιας του πατρος υμων θελετε ποιειν εκεινος ανθρωποκτονος ην απ αρχης και εν τη αληθεια ουκ εστηκεν οτι ουκ εστιν αληθεια εν αυτω οταν λαλη το ψευδος εκ των ιδιων λαλει οτι ψευστης εστιν και ο πατηρ αυτουεγω δε οτι την αληθειαν λεγω ου πιστευετε μοι

umeis ek tou patros tau diabolou este kai tas epithumias tou patros umōn thelete poiein ekeinos anthrōpoktonos ēn ap archēs kai en tē alētheia ouk estēken oti ouk estin alētheia en autō otan lalē to pseudos ek tōn idiōn lalei oti pseustēs estin kai ho patēr autou egō de oti tēn alētheian legō ou pisteuete moi

You are from the Devil as the father, and the lusts of your father you desire to do. That one was a murderer from the beginning, and he has not stood in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own, because he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me. (John 8.44 – 45)


Here we have Jesus, Himself, proclaiming to the unbelieving Jews, in no uncertain terms, that they are from the Devil.

Jews who do not acknowledge Jesus as The Truth are doing the Devil’s work – they are following the Devil’s desires (epithumias), of which, he has been a murderer of man (anthrōpoktonos) from the very beginning.

Jesus had already rightly labeled Jews as murderers and liars long before they killed Him.


Jesus never said those words in John chapter 8. That was written by a Hellenistic anti-Semite, former disciple of Paul's. Perhaps, that chapter was a forgery added by the Church in the 4th Century. Otherwise, it is one more of the contradictions of the NT. Evidence? Read 8:31. It says that Jesus was speaking to the Jews who had believed in him. And in verse 44, Jesus is saying that the Jews who had believed in him were children of the devil. How could that be possible? It is either antisemitism, forgery or contradiction.
Ben

Jordan Fontenot
October 30th, 2011, 12:57 PM
Jesus never said those words in John chapter 8. That was written by a Hellenistic anti-Semite, former disciple of Paul's. Perhaps, that chapter was a forgery added by the Church in the 4th Century. Otherwise, it is one more of the contradictions of the NT. Evidence? Read 8:31. It says that Jesus was speaking to the Jews who had believed in him. And in verse 44, Jesus is saying that the Jews who had believed in him were children of the devil. How could that be possible? It is either antisemitism, forgery or contradiction.
Ben

Just because they were in late manuscripts doesn't mean they werent't said by Jesus. Either way this scripture was taken totally out of context. He was speaking to those who were trying to kill him (v.37) So yes their ways and teachings would be of the devil. That was a rough translation though

beloved57
December 3rd, 2011, 03:54 PM
If God Loved all men without exception, and His Love is the same for all, then according to 1 Jn 3:1

1Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

All men without exception should be called the Son's of God ! Now if that is True, why did Jesus say to these ethnic jews ? Jn 8:42


42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Also, if God is Father of anyone then they will Love Jesus Christ, Christ said that Himself !" If God were your Father, ye would love me: "

Now Paul wrote in 1 Cor 16:22

22If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.

Now consider this, if any man Love not Jesus, then that means according to Jn 8:42, that one has not God as their Father, and if they have not God as their Father, then how could they be loved of God the Father 1 Jn 3:1 ?

Now, see how that false teaching cannot stand the test of scripture ?

oatmeal
December 3rd, 2011, 04:07 PM
Romans 9:13


13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

How can it be sincerely taught that scripture teaches that God loves all men without exception, when it specifically says of Esau, God Hated ?

And I got news for you, He did not only hate Esau, but all the workers of iniquity. Ps 5:5


5The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

And they that work iniquity shall soon hear these words Matt 7:23


23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Yes, these and those in Ps 5:5 are the very same !


I will the prophet/son of God answer your dilemma. John 3:16

Hate is not always used in scripture as the complete antithesis of love.

It is also used in the sense of "love less, not to love, to slight"

God is love. I John 4:8

God does not love some as much as others. God said of Jesus
Christ, "this is My beloved son, in whom I am well pleased"

God is not always pleased with all people.

I trust that this will alleviate your doubts about God's love.

oatmeal

Hilston
December 3rd, 2011, 08:10 PM
B57 ~ I admire your efforts to present the Biblical case for particular redemption. Sometimes it's helpful to explain redemption in terms of the value and extent of the atonement. I believe it was either Owen or Gill who put it something like this:

If Christ's sacrifice is universal in extent (i.e., if He died for all without exception), yet there are men who end up in hell, then Christ's sacrifice has no redemptive value (i.e., His death doesn't actually save anyone).

If Christ's sacrifice has redemptive value (i.e., His death actually saves people), and is universal in extent (i.e., He died for all without exception), then all men (and women) are saved without exception (i.e., Universalism).

If Christ's sacrifice has redemptive value (i.e., His death actually saves people), and yet some people end up in hell, then it logically follows that Christ's sacrifice could NOT have been universal in extent (i.e., He could NOT have died for all without exception).

So, in the first scenario, Christ's sacrifice has no redemptive value, which is unbiblical. In the second scenario, all men without exception are saved, which is unbiblical. Only the third scenario is logical and biblical, namely, that Christ's sacrifice has actual redemptive value, that each and every one for whom Christ died will actually and inexorably be saved, and that everyone for whom Christ DID NOT die will go to hell.

Thanks for your hard work,
Hilston

Apple7
December 3rd, 2011, 09:14 PM
Jesus never said those words in John chapter 8. That was written by a Hellenistic anti-Semite, former disciple of Paul's. Perhaps, that chapter was a forgery added by the Church in the 4th Century. Otherwise, it is one more of the contradictions of the NT. Evidence? Read 8:31. It says that Jesus was speaking to the Jews who had believed in him. And in verse 44, Jesus is saying that the Jews who had believed in him were children of the devil. How could that be possible? It is either antisemitism, forgery or contradiction.
Ben

How convenient!

But....the NT scripture that you quote for your position...I guess that is tried and true, right?

beloved57
December 6th, 2011, 02:44 AM
If God Loved all men without exception, then is God their Father according to 1 Jn 3:1

Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

The US here must be all men without exception for those who believe God Loved all men without exception, then all men without exception are the Sons of God and have God as their Father !

Now Jesus said to some jews this Jn 8:42a

Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me:

So from this very statement of Jesus, If God is the Father of a person that person would love Christ, but Paul writes a statement about some who do not Love Christ 1 Cor 16:22

22If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.

So how can this be if God Loved all men without exception ? Because if He did, then God is there Father, and if that is so, they will Love Jesus Christ as Jesus said to the jews Jn 8:42a..

beloved57
December 6th, 2011, 06:02 PM
Those who have corrupted the word of God, take a scripture like Jn 3:16 and force it to say or mean that God Loves all men without exception, even though that's not what it says or means. The Truth of scripture however states and demonstrates that His Love is distinguishing and its only to His Elect ! Deut 7:6-8

6For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

7The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

8But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

Christ, who is God, is said to Love the Church [World] Eph 5:25

Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church[The Elect], and gave himself for it;

These are certainly not everyone in the world without exception. The Church are the Chosen of Eph 1:4, which are the Chosen of Deut 7:6-8. Remember God told His Chosen there that they were His Chosen Possession Deut 7:6 " the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself"

Now the word special is the hebrew word cĕgullah and means:

) [B]possession, property

a) valued property, peculiar treasure

b) treasure


Now the same things are said in Eph 1:4 [Chosen] and Eph 1:18

18The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

The word inheritance is the greek word klēronomia:

an inheritance, property received (or to be received) by inheritance

2) what is given to one as a possession

a) the eternal blessedness of the consummated kingdom of God which is to be expected after the visible return of Christ

b) the share which an individual will have in that eternal blessedness


So this being God's Chosen inheritance in Deut 7:6-7 was because of them being designated by the Father, when He chose us in Christ.

beloved57
December 6th, 2011, 08:34 PM
The Love that God has for them He Loves Deut 7:6-7 has it's origin in Eternity, premised on His Gift of His Son, whose goings forth hath been from everlasting Mic 5:2, He having been ordained to die for the objects of His Love before the world began 1 Pet 1:20

20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you[The Elect 1 Pet 1:1-2]

That God had a distinguishing Love among the human family of men is seen by His words here Mal 1:2

2I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, Notice, He did not say that He Loved Esau, Jacobs brother, He made a point to emphasize that !

Here it is affirmed even amongst men of the same human family of siblings, God Loved Jacob only, and not His brother esau. Now the Truth of the matter is this, each one of us falls into the category of either Jacob, those God Loves or esau, those God hates see Rom 9:13, meaning God does not Love ! We can rebel against this Truth all we want, it is not going to change God one bit !

beloved57
December 7th, 2011, 04:46 AM
True Believers take God at His Word ! God's Sovereign distinguishing Love for His Chosen is the only Love for man God reveals as per Deut 7:6-7


6For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

7The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

Mal 1:2

2 I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,


Now there is nothing here that suggests that God also Loved the Egyptians or other people groups that existed when this truth was made known, and it would pure assumption to state that He did !

God's Love is not as the False teachers tell us, a general love for all mankind, regardless of their perversion of the Jn 3:16 text or the 1 Jn 2:2 text, but it is special and directed only to His own People Jn 13:1

1Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.


The objects of his love are described by his property in them, "his own"; by whom are meant, not all mankind, who are his by creation; nor the Jews, who were his nation and countrymen according to the flesh; nor the twelve apostles only, whom he had chosen; but all the elect of God, who are his own, by his choice of them, by the Father's gift of them to him, by the purchase he made of them with his blood, and by his effectual call of them by his grace:John Gill

The Church Eph 5:25,28-29

25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

Scripture here is very specific as to who Christ Loved, the Church, same as in Jn 13:1, Which is His own Body

28So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

29For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:


Again, Christ Loved His Own Church, His Wife, His Own Body, what can be made more plainer to any honest heart quickened by God ?

Read again Mal 1:2, this is the very scripture God inspired Paul to use when preaching about the Election of Grace Rom 9:11-13 cp Rom 11:5-6. That such a truth is really the case [God's Love being discriminate] that God Loves only some men and not others, Paul anticipated the objection of our carnal mind against it and wrote immediately after vs 14

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

Now how many of us believe that for God to Love only some of humanity and hate others, love them not, simply based upon motives in Himself and not the creature's doing good or evil, that God would be unrighteous[injustice] for doing so ?

Injustice means :

the quality or fact of being unjust; inequity.
violation of the rights of others; unjust or unfair action or treatment.


Those of you who say what Paul anticipated his hearers to say, that if God did this He would be unfair, then you know that Paul Preached a Distinguishing Love of God for some and hating others !

beloved57
December 7th, 2011, 08:44 AM
Jer 31:3

3The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

Eph 1:4

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Jn 17:23-24

23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

And if God Loved them as He Loved Christ before the foundation of the world, then He Loved His Church in Christ before the foundation of the world !

Now how could God have Loved all men without exception, being that the only Love revealed is an everlasting Love Jer 31:3 even as His Mercy is from everlasting to everlasting, not upon all without exception, but upon them that fear Him per Ps 103:17

17But the mercy of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;

Now, do all men without exception fear God ? NO..

And as His Mercy is from everlasting to everlasting, so also to them He Loved. Now if this be True, those of you who believe in the everlasting punishment of the wicked which scripture teaches Matt 25:41


41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

And those Christ said this to Matt 23:32-33

32Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

You must conclude that God Loved them from Everlasting to Everlasting, and so He will be Loving them while they are cursed in the everlasting confines of everlasting fire ! How absurd !

beloved57
December 7th, 2011, 05:59 PM
All those God Loved have something in common with one another, that those God does not love do not have !

First they were Chosen in Christ before the world began, they were all Loved from everlasting Jer 31:3

Secondly, they have Christ as their Surety and Covenant Head from Everlasting !


Third, they have a accomplished redemption !

Fourthly, They receive the Gift of Eternal Life !

Fifth, They are quickened out of being dead in trespasses and sins Eph 2:5

Lastly, they will Love God Rom 8:28; 1 Jn 4:9

We love him, because he first loved us.

I recall Jesus saying to some jews this Jn 8:42

Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

God's Love to a person shall causes that person to Love God and Christ !

So whoever dies in this condition 1 Cor 16:22

If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.


That person was never Loved by God !

beloved57
December 10th, 2011, 04:32 PM
2 Thess 2:16-17

16Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

17Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

If God Loved all men without exception as false religion says, then all men without exception should by God be given [not offered] everlasting consolation and good hope through Grace !

The basis of these gifts is the Love of God. Those God Loves He gives Eternal Comfort and Good Hope.

beloved57
December 12th, 2011, 04:53 PM
If God Loves everyone without exception as it is falsely preached these days, what does His Love have to do with one being saved ? It would have nothing to do with it, since millions whom God Loved will be tormented forever and ever for their sins. To hear these false teachers tell it, God Loved eternally those, just as much as He did those who shall be Glorified with Him forever !

But scripture is clear that it is because of God's Great Love for His Elect that they are saved Eph 2:4-5

4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved )

Those who believe God Loved all men without exception, say this Great Love that saves is powerless to save all whom He Loved !

beloved57
December 15th, 2011, 05:22 AM
9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

10Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

If God Loved all men without exception as some falsely assert, then it is His Purpose that they live [spiritually] through Christ, because He was sent into the world to be a propitiation for their sins, so if all without exception do not live spiritually, but remain dead in sin, God in His Love has failed in that Purpose, there is simply no other conclusion !

Grosnick Marowbe
December 15th, 2011, 07:21 AM
Now many today in their fleshly religious zeal, void of the Spirit,have imposed a most unscriptural meaning to the word world in Jn 3:16, they erroneously have it meaning all men and women without exception or the whole human race, but thats not what Jn 3:16 states or means. This fabrication does not pass the test of scripture. For example Jn 1:10

10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

In this one verse we find the word world [kosmos] with three different meanings. The first instance means, He lived on this earth, He tabernacled among men, Second it means He created all things, He created the orderly arrangement, and third, the word world primarily means the Jewish world were He conducted His Ministry, and who hated Him without cause. So in this one verse alone we have diverse meanings,none of which honestly means all mankind without exception. Wherever the word world is found it should be subject to its context, a word should not dictated a subject, but the subject the word.

Man, you must be a lot of fun at a party...

beloved57
December 15th, 2011, 10:20 PM
Man, you must be a lot of fun at a party...

Deal with the scripture I just witnessed to you !

beloved57
December 19th, 2011, 06:50 PM
Rom 8:35-39

35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

37Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

38For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Now since according to the false teachers, God and Christ Loved all men without exception, and it appears that nothing can separate the objects of their Love from their Love, then all those who shall yet hear the words of Matt 25:41

41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Matt 7:23

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

They can be assured that while they are in everlasting torment and fire, and cursed, that God and Christ still Loves them.

beloved57
December 20th, 2011, 03:40 AM
Rom 9:13

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Mal 1:2-3

2I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,

3And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

One of the main reasons why God hates some is to manifest more clearly the Love that He does have for the ones He does Love. God's Love is not properly perceived, if it is not seen from the background of others that He hates ! That is God's point in Mal 1:2-3 ! They were both brothers, both sinners, yet God only Loved Jacob !

1 Jn 3:16

Hereby perceive we[B] the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

beloved57
December 21st, 2011, 08:50 AM
If God Loved all men without exception, then all men without exception shall come to Christ ! Which we know is not true See Jn 5:40

Jn 6:44-45

44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Now lets compare Ps 94:12 and Jn 6:45

Ps 94:12

12Blessed is the man whom thou chastenest, O LORD, and teachest him out of thy law;

Now whom God Loveth, He chasteneth Heb 12:6

6For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

Now who the Lord Loveth, He chastens and teaches out of His Law ! And those so blessed, come to Christ, for they are Sons or Children.

Now all that are taught of God and learned comes to Christ Jn 6:44-45.

So if all men without exception do not come to Christ then scripture testimony is false. God teaches men the Law when He as promised, puts it into their hearts at regeneration or New Birth Jer 31:33

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, [B]I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. See also Heb 8:10;10:16. Now scripture gives only one particular seed that God promises to chastn, and that is the seed of David, a Type of Christ Ps 89:29-32 and not everyone in the world without exception, the seed of David is the same as the seed of Abraham, which means God's Elect !

beloved57
January 3rd, 2012, 05:34 PM
Rev 1:5

5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

We know it is a Myth that Christ Loved everyone without exception, simply because scripture testimony tells us that those He Loved, He washed them from their Sins in His own Blood.

That means He saved them. Having been washed from our sins is Salvation !

Now, there are many who shall die and did die in their sins ! Jn 8:21,24

Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

So how could Jesus have Loved these whom He declares shall die in their sins ? Because if He Loved them, He washed them from their sins by His own Blood !

Not only that, He also, those whom He Loved and Washed, He made them as a consequence Kings and Priests unto God, His Father, which speaks to their New Birth and Conversion ! Vs 6

6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Christ's Love is a converting Love, at least the Christ I serve is !

beloved57
January 13th, 2012, 05:28 AM
1 Jn 4:19

We love him, because he first loved us.

God does not Love all men without exception because all men without exception do not Love God and Christ ! A evidence of God's Love for a person, is that the one being Loved by Him shall be caused to Love God in Return, and so we have the words of our Text "We love him, because or since he first loved us."

Also that is why Jesus said this to unregenerate jews Jn 8:42

Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

And that goes for anyone, If God Loves you, He is your and you would Love God, and His Christ, there are no exceptions.

Jn 16:27

27For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

Again, an evidence that men have been Loved by the Father, because they Love Christ and believe in His Mission from their Father !

Ones Love to God and His Christ is the Fruit of God Loving them !

All who do not Love Christ, let them be accursed ! For God does not Love them 1 Cor 16:21-22

21The salutation of me Paul with mine own hand.

22If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.

Paul would dare not say that if He believed these men were Loved by God..

Angel4Truth
January 13th, 2012, 05:30 AM
Those who have corrupted the word of God, take a scripture like Jn 3:16 and force it to say or mean that God Loves all men without exception, even though that's not what it says or means. The Truth of scripture however states and demonstrates that His Love is distinguishing and its only to His Elect ! Deut 7:6-8

Matthew 23:27 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.

Grosnick Marowbe
January 13th, 2012, 05:57 AM
That's it "Beloved57" I'm starting a new thread entitled, "The myth that, Beloved57 is in his right mind and knows precisely what he's talking about."

You're a complete "nutfish" my friend and fellow poster.

beloved57
January 17th, 2012, 10:41 PM
Jn 17:23

23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Now if God Loved all men without exception, then He must have Loved them as He Loved Christ. In context, Jesus is not only speaking of His Disciples, but of also all them that shall believe on Him through their word Jn 17:19-24

19And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

20Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

The word AS is the greek adverb kathōs:
according as

a) just as, even as

b) in proportion as, in the degree that

They are Loved in the same degree , even as God Loved His Son !!

This means, those Jesus will yet say this to Matt 7:23

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

If those who teach the false doctrine that God Loves all men without exception, then, these here Christ is speaking to in the Judgment, whom He will say to them, I never knew you, they were Loved by His Father in the same degree that the Father Loved Him !

beloved57
January 24th, 2012, 12:22 PM
We know that God does not Love all without exception because if He did, all without exception would have had all their sins taken away and could not be punished for their sins, because scriptures says

1 Jn 4:10

Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

You see that ? God's Love was demonstrated to those He so Loved, that He sent His Son the Lord Jesus Christ to be the propitiation for our sins.

Now, those who have and shall die in their sins, it is evident that Christ was not the propitiation for their sins, meaning He did not satisfy God's Law and Justice for them, so consequently they must remain unbelievers and die in their sins Jn 8:24

24I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Its no doubt about it, Christ is being even now for all that He died for the propitiation for their sins before the heavenly mercy Seat and Throne of God.

The word propitiation here is the greek word hilasmos and means:

an appeasing, propitiating continually !

2) the means of appeasing, a propitiation

The Lord Jesus Christ for all them God Loved, He has established everlasting peace with God for them.

Its a Peace that the Son of God Made with His Blood Col 1:20

And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Peace is the fruit of propitiation, God is at Peace with with every soul Christ died for, and that is the fruit of His Love !

Now, those who shall yet hear these words Matt 7:23

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

God did not Love them, and did not send Christ to be the propitiation for their sins, because if He did, God would be obligated, for Christ's sake, to receive them into His Favor , because His Law and Justice had been satisfied on their behalf by His Son !

beloved57
March 30th, 2012, 06:23 AM
Jn 3:16

16"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

God's Love for the World of the Elect, His People, though they were born by Nature as others, most unholy sinners, but because of God's Great Love for them, He never for a second legally condemned them, neither have they ever been under His punitive wrath. For those things are not consistent with His Great Love for them ! It was God's Love that sent Christ into the world to redeem those He Loved Jn 3:16-17;1 Jn 3:16;4:9-10. All the condemnation legally that the Elect deserved for their revolt against God in Adam, had already been imputed to Christ, their Surety before the foundation of the world !

Christian_Nerd
March 30th, 2012, 09:43 AM
depth:



So are you denying that Esau was an Individual ?


If you believe that God hated Esau, the person, and that Esau was predestined to serve Jacob, the person, then how do you explain the following verses?

If God was talking about Jacob and Esau as people then Esau should have searved Jacob, right? But what does the Bible say?

Genesis 32:3-5,
3 Jacob sent messengers ahead of him to his brother Esau in the land of Seir, the country of Edom. 4 He instructed them: “This is what you are to say to my lord Esau: ‘Your servant Jacob says, I have been staying with Laban and have remained there till now. 5 I have cattle and donkeys, sheep and goats, male and female servants. Now I am sending this message to my lord, that I may find favor in your eyes.’”


Genesis 33:3-8,
3 He himself went on ahead and bowed down to the ground seven times as he approached his brother.
4 But Esau ran to meet Jacob and embraced him; he threw his arms around his neck and kissed him. And they wept. 5 Then Esau looked up and saw the women and children. “Who are these with you?” he asked.
Jacob answered, “They are the children God has graciously given your servant.”
6 Then the female servants and their children approached and bowed down. 7 Next, Leah and her children came and bowed down. Last of all came Joseph and Rachel, and they too bowed down.
8 Esau asked, “What’s the meaning of all these flocks and herds I met?”
“To find favor in your eyes, my lord,” he said.


Genesis 33:14-15,
14 So let my lord go on ahead of his servant, while I move along slowly at the pace of the flocks and herds before me and the pace of the children, until I come to my lord in Seir.”
15 Esau said, “Then let me leave some of my men with you.”
“But why do that?” Jacob asked. “Just let me find favor in the eyes of my lord.”

Wile E. Coyote
March 30th, 2012, 12:05 PM
Since God is love, for him to say that he hates certain people is figurative.
This makes no sense. God destroys those He hates.


Did God hate Esau or his works?
Paul said that the children were not yet born and had not done any good or evil that "the purpose of God according to election might stand, As it is written, 'Jacob have I loved, Esau have I hated.'"

Christian_Nerd
March 30th, 2012, 01:06 PM
"Romans 9:

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

How can it be sincerely taught that scripture teaches that God loves all men without exception, when it specifically says of Esau, God Hated ?


And I got news for you, He did not only hate Esau, but all the workers of iniquity. ps 5:"-bedeviled

This is talking about how God's love for those who are good in His sight (Christians) is so much greater than the love He has for "all the workers of iniquity" that in comparison, the love of sinners is looked at as hate. God loves all sinners more so than any man can possibly love anything or anyone, but He loves Christians even more than that.
If that verse is to be taken as meaning that God hates sinners then what about this verse?
Luke 14:26, "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters--yes, even his own life--he cannot be my disciple.
Are we to hate our father and mother, our wife and children, our brothers and sisters? No,it is speaking of how our love of God is to be above our love of others.

Christian_Nerd
March 30th, 2012, 01:20 PM
Heres a video for people who think God has unconditional love for every person that ever lived. Starring George Carlin.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xYua2kDCec&feature=channel_video_title

0xYua2kDCec

That video asks the question:
"Does God love those prdestined for Hell?"
This question is based on Calsvinism. God did not predestine anyone for Hell but gave everyone an equal chance to accept Him and thus be saved.

And the part about "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated" is being taken out of context. It is talking about the nations which will sprout from Jacob and Esau.

Christian_Nerd
March 30th, 2012, 01:48 PM
The Love of God which is in Christ Jesus Our Lord !

Rom 8:39

39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Who is the "us" in this verse? They are Christians for they say,"our Lord "; which means that the love from God that is referred to here is the love which God has for His Christians. This verse is saying that once a man is a Christians, he cannot be taken away from God.



Those who are not of the Elect, are those who are hated as Esau [Rom 9:13], they are alienated from God's Love and always will be

Romans 9 is talking about how some people believe that just because they were of Abraham's blood (Jews) that they were automatically saved. The part about Esau and Jacob is an example of how it is by God's grace (His death on the cross) that you are saved and not by being born a Jew. For what else does it say in Romans 9? "Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children."




that is why they shall have their portion in the Lake of Fire, or as Jesus states, the Damnation of Hell Matt 23:33

Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Hell was made especially for them ! and they were made especially for hell..

Now These men here Jesus was speaking to, could not be those whom God Loved in Christ Jesus, stating that they cannot escape the damnation of Hell.

Matt 23:33 is talking about sinners. Hell was made to punish all those who do not repent of their sins and place their Faith in Christ.




Also, If God's Love is in Christ Jesus, then how is it possible to be Loved of God as per Jn 3:16 without being Chosen in Christ before the foundation of the World ?

God's love for Christians is different than His love for sinners.

Christian_Nerd
March 30th, 2012, 01:55 PM
Then are ye bastards and not sons !

Heb 12:6-8

6For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

If the Lord chastens all whom He loves, and if He Loves all men without exception, then all men without exception are chastened of the Lord. Now if that is True, then why did this inspired writer of Hebrews say, If ye be without chastening, then are ye bastards and NOT Sons ! How could he write such a comment if He believed that God Loved all men without exception ? If he believed that, then was he careless and foolish to say some could be bastards and not Son. For how could a possibility of that even happen,if God Loved all men without exception ! The reason why he said it however, is because he knew that God did not Love all men without exception.

God loves His Christians more than He loves sinners. And the love spoken of here is the love of His Christians (Sons).

Christian_Nerd
March 30th, 2012, 02:08 PM
Many False teachers today have corrupted and used God's word deceitfully by quoting Jn 3:16 as stating that God Loves all men, of all time without exception, and that believing in Christ here is an condition man must meet in order to get saved ! What utter Falsehood. For Jn 3:16 is stating no more than God Loved those in the world who are believing in His Son and that they should not perish. This is a Testimony that God Loved all those in the world who are believing or who are believers or shall be made believers as in Jn 17:20. So in this verse Jn 3:16, there is no testimony at all that God Loves any who are not or will become believers. Only believing in Christ is proof that God Loved someone.

Jn 17:20, “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;
Jesus is praying for those who are or will be saved.

Jn 3:16, For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
This verse explains that God died for anyone who would accetp Him and repent of their ways.

There is not proof of predestination in either of these verses.

beloved57
March 30th, 2012, 09:27 PM
cn


If you believe that God hated Esau, the person, and that Esau was predestined to serve Jacob, the person, then how do you explain the following verses?

I am not explaining nothing to you. You either believe the Truth or you do not. God hated Esau !

beloved57
March 30th, 2012, 09:29 PM
cn


Who is the "us" in this verse?

Sinners Christ Loved and died for Rom 5:8

8But God commendeth His love toward us in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

beloved57
March 30th, 2012, 09:31 PM
cn


God loves His Christians more than He loves sinners.

Thats a Lie Rom 5:8

8But God commendeth His love toward us in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

beloved57
March 30th, 2012, 09:32 PM
cn


There is not proof of predestination in either of these verses.

Yes it is. He prays for them that shall believe Jn 17:20, they shall believe because they are predestined to believe !

Christian_Nerd
March 30th, 2012, 10:38 PM
cn



I am not explaining nothing to you. You either believe the Truth or you do not. God hated Esau !

I gave a clear explanation, and I would like to hear what you have to say about it. How can God be talking about the brothers themselves when He said, "the older shall serve the younger"? And yet, the Bible clearly states that Jacob served Esau.

Christian_Nerd
March 30th, 2012, 10:51 PM
cn
Yes it is. He prays for them that shall believe Jn 17:20, they shall believe because they are predestined to believe !

It does not speak of predestination in that verse. It says that God prayed for those who are (at that time) and will be Christians. God is all-knowing, God is not subject to time so, He can see who will one day follow Him.

Christian_Nerd
March 30th, 2012, 11:02 PM
Who is the "us" in this verse?


cn
Sinners Christ Loved and died for Rom 5:8

8But God commendeth His love toward us in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Christ showed His love for us through His death on the cross.
This does not go against what I said earlier.

beloved57
March 31st, 2012, 04:31 AM
Jn 17:9,20

9 I pray for them; I pray not for the world, but for them whom Thou hast given Me, for they are Thine.

Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also who shall believe in Me through their word,

Christ refused to pray for the world in general, but for those only who belonged to Him, Believers in Him and those who shall Believe in the Future. Those Christ refused to pray for are those of the reprobate world, those whom God Created as vessels of wrath, and children of hell ! Rom 9:22

22What if God, choosing to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction;


Matt 23:15,33

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

"Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers! How can ye escape the damnation of hell?


Now it is insanity to suppose that Christ Loved these people and that He gave Himself for them as He Loved and gave Himself for the Church Eph 5:25

25Husbands, love your wives even as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for it,

No real Christian should pray for none but those God has given to Christ, those who shall believe in Him, that is being Christ like.

It is blasphemy to even suggest that Christ came to redeem the children of the devil, whom shall perish in their sins, in God's Justice and Vengeance 2 Thess 1:8

in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who know not God, and who obey not the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

If Christ death was for these, if God Loved them Jn 3:16, then it was in vain !

Gurucam
March 31st, 2012, 05:01 AM
You have made an interesting point.

However, in the context of the entire word of God, God is love, His love reaches to all. However, not all have responded in kind. Since God is love, for him to say that he hates certain people is figurative. Surely, he is not pleased with the hearts of many.

God's love certainly flows most abundantly to those who love him back. But God's love extends to all. Salvation is made available to all. That is God's love.

Did God hate Esau or his works?

That there are those who live contrary to God's will is clear. Yet salvation is available to all.

God is love.

oatmeal

God love only those who do His will.

Only those whose hearts are not waxed gross can discern and be be led into their works by the Spirit of Jesus and so do the will of God.

Those who remain with waxed gross hearts are 'the dead'. God's sentiments to the dead, as expressed by Jesus, is: 'let the dead bury their dead'.

Also those who do not know Truth from the Spirit though their own hearts, err (they do not do right by God) and are not chosen for God kingdom of heaven.

Fact is God loves only the chosen few. They are the ones who are led into all their works by precisely what the Spirit has in mind for them to pray for, say and so, as discerned within their own hearts or spirits . . . and so do the will of God.

Those chosen by God are few because few knows or can know, the above Truth.

Take no chances, seek with all thy might to move from being a 'child of the flesh' to becoming a 'child of God'. Only those who are led by the Spirit (in the above manner) are children of God (re. Romans: 8 verse: 14)

Do you know this Truth? It is essence of the New Testament as per the KJV N.T..

SeraphimsCherub
March 31st, 2012, 06:18 AM
Fact is God loves only the chosen few. They are the ones who are led into all their works by precisely what the Spirit has in mind for them to pray for, say and so, as discerned within their own hearts or spirits . . . and so do the will of God.
Amen brother! Plus GOD'S WILL is of HIS CHOOSING, not man's. Just as the wind so blows where ever it will without our consent. So likewise is the WILL OF GOD WROUGHT BY HIS SPIRIT in whomever HE so pleases According to HIS OWN WILL,and not man's:

Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

Grosnick Marowbe
March 31st, 2012, 06:38 AM
Amen brother! Plus GOD'S WILL is of HIS CHOOSING, not man's. Just as the wind so blows where ever it will without our consent. So likewise is the WILL OF GOD WROUGHT BY HIS SPIRIT in whomever HE so pleases According to HIS OWN WILL,and not man's:

Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

Another fanatic has spoken......

Gurucam
March 31st, 2012, 07:05 AM
Amen brother! Plus GOD'S WILL is of HIS CHOOSING, not man's. Just as the wind so blows where ever it will without our consent. So likewise is the WILL OF GOD WROUGHT BY HIS SPIRIT in whomever HE so pleases According to HIS OWN WILL,and not man's:

Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

"Plus GOD'S WILL is of HIS CHOOSING, not man's" . . . . absolutely so! How can it be otherwise?

"Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. "

God is Love. The will of God are urgings of love.

If "urgings of love" is substituted for "the will of God" then John: 1: 13 can now read: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but out of urgings of love for one's spouse. "

And then, now, a few more misled souls will know Truth!

Then they know that love motivated sexual procreation brings forth children of God (re. Romans: 7 verses: 1 to 6). This is how children of God are brought forth (re. John: 1 verses: 12 & 13)

Where as physically driven sexual procreation (i.e. loveless sex, even if this is done in accordance with the Ten Commandments) brings forth only children of the flesh (re. Romans: 7 verses: 1 to 6).

Think that they will listen and know Truth?

SeraphimsCherub
March 31st, 2012, 07:52 AM
Another fanatic has spoken......

Hey...i can't help it if you despise the GOD the Bible actually reveals. I'm just quoting Scripture and letting it Speak for it self!

Christian_Nerd
March 31st, 2012, 12:20 PM
beloved57, "No real Christian should pray for none but those God has given to Christ, those who shall believe in Him, that is being Christ like."

God said, "love thy enemies"' (Matthew 5:44); and he also said,
Luke 6:40, "everyone when he is fully trained will be like his teacher.”
1 Peter 2:21, "Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow His steps"
The enemy of the Christian is the sinner. If God Himself tells us to love the sinner and also to be like Him then there is no possibility that God hates the sinner.

Wile E. Coyote
March 31st, 2012, 01:22 PM
God loves His Christians more than He loves sinners. And the love spoken of here is the love of His Christians (Sons).
God did not love Jacob more than Esau. He loved Jacob and hated Esau.

Christian_Nerd
March 31st, 2012, 01:37 PM
God did not love Jacob more than Esau. He loved Jacob and hated Esau.

Jacob stood for the nation of Israel;
Esau stood for the nation of Edom.

For it says the older shall serve the younger, but the Bible clearly states that Jacob served Esau.

Edom was later destroyed and the remainder of the people fled to Israel, thus, the older (people of Edom) were under the rule of the younger (Israel).

Another way to look at this is:
Israel stands for Christians;
Edom stands for the Gentiles (sinners).

So when God said "Jacob I have loved; Esau I have hated" He is merely saying that His love of His Christians is so much greater than His love of sinners that, in comparison, His love of sinners is looked at as hate.

He loves all but loves Christians more than He loves sinners.

beloved57
March 31st, 2012, 01:58 PM
cn


God said, "love thy enemies"' (Matthew 5:44);

But not His Enemies Ps 139:20-22

20For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain.

21Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?

22I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.

If you love God's enemies, you hate God 2 Chron 19:2

2And Jehu the son of Hanani the seer went out to meet him, and said to king Jehoshaphat, Shouldest thou help the ungodly, and love them that hate the LORD? therefore is wrath upon thee from before the LORD.

Wile E. Coyote
March 31st, 2012, 02:06 PM
Jacob stood for the nation of Israel;
Esau stood for the nation of Edom.

For it says the older shall serve the younger, but the Bible clearly states that Jacob served Esau.

Edom was later destroyed and the remainder of the people fled to Israel, thus, the older (people of Edom) were under the rule of the younger (Israel).

Another way to look at this is:
Israel stands for Christians;
Edom stands for the Gentiles (sinners).

So when God said "Jacob I have loved; Esau I have hated" He is merely saying that His love of His Christians is so much greater than His love of sinners that, in comparison, His love of sinners is looked at as hate.

He loves all but loves Christians more than He loves sinners.
That's not how Paul applied God's statement. Paul employed God's word "Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated" to demonstrate the election of individuals to salvation. You reply against God thus showing that Calvinist interpretation is correct. Paul suggested that men would reply against God about it.

Wile E. Coyote
March 31st, 2012, 02:08 PM
cn



But not His Enemies Ps 139:20-22

20For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain.

21Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?

22I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.

If you love God's enemies, you hate God 2 Chron 19:2

2And Jehu the son of Hanani the seer went out to meet him, and said to king Jehoshaphat, Shouldest thou help the ungodly, and love them that hate the LORD? therefore is wrath upon thee from before the LORD.

This is old covenant and does not apply today. Give a new tesatament example that commmands you hate people. I am a Calvinist but I find you to be an embarassment.

beloved57
March 31st, 2012, 03:11 PM
wile


This is old covenant

No its not, its God's Truth for now !

Wile E. Coyote
April 1st, 2012, 06:45 PM
wile



No its not, its God's Truth for now !
Prove it sir!

beloved57
April 4th, 2012, 09:59 AM
Prove it sir!

I gave you scripture fool. 2 Tim 3:16



All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Scripture then was only the OT scriptures, and Paul said to NT believers what its use was then ! So you reject the proof, that is on you !

beloved57
April 4th, 2012, 10:14 AM
How can those who are hated by God, such as those in Ps 5:5, the workers of iniquity, be those of Jn 3:16 ? Those for sure are in a state of separation from God and His Love, if they are hated by Him. This could never be said of those, whom God Loved through Christ Jesus Rom 8:39, because nothing could separate them from the Love of God, which includes Death, which includes Spiritual Death, this word death is defined as:

the power of death Heb 2:14


figuratively, a region enveloped in the darkness of ignorance and sin Eph 4:18

in the widest sense, death comprising all the miseries arising from sin, as well physical death as the loss of a life consecrated to God and blessed in him on earth, to be followed by wretchedness in hell

When God's Elect are in a state of Spiritual death, are they then separated from the Love of God, that is in Christ Jesus ? God forbid ! However the Workers of Iniquity are Ps 5:5, so these cannot be those who God Loved !

Christian_Nerd
April 4th, 2012, 10:48 AM
Ps 5:5 is talking of how God loves those who do good in His sight (Christians) so much that His love for those who do evil (sinners) is compared as hate.

Jn 3:16: God came to save the sinners; this does not go against anything that I say. Whoever, notice that word.

The love which is talked about in Romans 8:39 is the love God has for His Christians.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 4th, 2012, 10:55 AM
B57 (zero) likes to call everybody a "fool" the Bible warns not to call a brother a "fool" But, 'zero' isn't gonna let that stop him, after all, he's one of the elect....

beloved57
April 4th, 2012, 09:54 PM
cn


Ps 5:5 is talking of how God loves those who do good in His sight (Christians) so much that His love for those who do evil (sinners) is compared as hate.

You pervert scripture. Ps 5:5 is about people God hates !

beloved57
April 4th, 2012, 09:56 PM
B57 (zero) likes to call everybody a "fool" the Bible warns not to call a brother a "fool" But, 'zero' isn't gonna let that stop him, after all, he's one of the elect....

Shut up fool, you child of the devil. God don't care if I call satan's children a fool ! You not my brother in Christ !

Pierac
April 4th, 2012, 10:03 PM
This is old covenant and does not apply today. Give a new tesatament example that commmands you hate people. I am a Calvinist but I find you to be an embarassment.

Your not a true Calvinist... You only pretend to be! True Calvinist believe in the 100% sovereign will of God! As in Man's will can not over come the WILL OF GOD! Meaning... GOD'S WILL... Will always be done! You do not believe this fact! Your a false Calvinist! Please stop pretending your a Calvinist! :rolleyes:


Paul

Grosnick Marowbe
April 4th, 2012, 11:25 PM
Shut up fool, you child of the devil. God don't care if I call satan's children a fool ! You not my brother in Christ !

You lack discernment, sanity, logic, reason, faith, Christianity, intelligence, and humility!!!! You don't have anyone that truly agrees with about anything you have to say, other than perhaps a very few "crazies" such as yourself...I don't think you're all there mentally. And if per chance you are, I think you're delusional and very odd....

beloved57
April 5th, 2012, 06:29 AM
You lack discernment, sanity, logic, reason, faith, Christianity, intelligence, and humility!!!! You don't have anyone that truly agrees with about anything you have to say, other than perhaps a very few "crazies" such as yourself...I don't think you're all there mentally. And if per chance you are, I think you're delusional and very odd....

Shut up fool ! Child of the Devil !

Christian_Nerd
April 5th, 2012, 08:30 AM
Your not a true Calvinist... You only pretend to be! True Calvinist believe in the 100% sovereign will of God! As in Man's will can not over come the WILL OF GOD! Meaning... GOD'S WILL... Will always be done! You do not believe this fact! Your a false Calvinist! Please stop pretending your a Calvinist! :rolleyes:


Paul

What if it is the Will of God that man have a Free Will?

Christian_Nerd
April 5th, 2012, 08:33 AM
cn



You pervert scripture. Ps 5:5 is about people God hates !

If you truly believe God hates all (un-elect) sinners then explain this:
Matthew 5:43-48, “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
This verse indicates that God wants Christians to love sinners, because God Himself loves sinners.
THis verse tells us that God loves those who love Him and loves those who hate Him.

God said, "love thy enemies"' (Matthew 5:44); and he also said,
Luke 6:40, "everyone when he is fully trained will be like his teacher.”
1 Peter 2:21, "Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow His steps"
1 Corinthians 11:1, “And you should imitate me, just as I imitate Christ."
The enemy of the Christian is the sinner. If God Himself tells us to love the sinner and also to be like Him then there is no possibility that God hates the sinner.

Ezekiel 33:11, "Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel."
This verse means God does not want anyone to go to Hell.

beloved57
April 5th, 2012, 08:37 AM
cn


If you truly believe God hates all (un-elect) sinners then explain this:

I am not explaining nothing to you, you are not worth it ! None of those quotes change the Truth of Ps 5:5

5The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

Christian_Nerd
April 5th, 2012, 08:40 AM
cn



I am not explaining nothing to you, you are not worth it ! None of those quotes change the Truth of Ps 5:5

5The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

If you truly are a Christian then you should want to spread the truth and answer the questions of those whom you say are wrong in their thinking.

beloved57
April 5th, 2012, 08:51 AM
If you truly are a Christian then you should want to spread the truth and answer the questions of those whom you say are wrong in their thinking.

I am spreading the Truth, read my threads, you reject the Truth.

And I hate to be the who tells you, but there is no hope for your wrong thinking ! Thats evidenced by how you reject the Truth !

And as I asked you before, define what you mean by Christian !

Pierac
April 5th, 2012, 05:43 PM
What if it is the Will of God that man have a Free Will?

I would have to say! What do What if's have to do with scripture? What if Eve slapped the serpent and ate from the tree of life instead of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? :think:

What if... :think: Yes, it just does not work no matter how you use it! :think:


Paul

Christian_Nerd
April 6th, 2012, 08:47 AM
I would have to say! What do What if's have to do with scripture? What if Eve slapped the serpent and ate from the tree of life instead of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? :think:

What if... :think: Yes, it just does not work no matter how you use it! :think:


Paul


Originally Posted by Pierac
Your not a true Calvinist... You only pretend to be! True Calvinist believe in the 100% sovereign will of God! As in Man's will can not over come the WILL OF GOD! Meaning... GOD'S WILL... Will always be done! You do not believe this fact! Your a false Calvinist! Please stop pretending your a Calvinist!

I believe that it is the Will of God that man have a Free Will.
Thus, man's will is not overcoming God's Will.

Christian_Nerd
April 6th, 2012, 08:55 AM
I am spreading the Truth, read my threads, you reject the Truth.

And I hate to be the who tells you, but there is no hope for your wrong thinking ! Thats evidenced by how you reject the Truth !

And as I asked you before, define what you mean by Christian !

A Christian is one who has Faith in the Gospel, has Faith in God, and repents of his sins.

Still, you avoid answering questions. The youth pastor at my church once believed that man had Free Will but now believes that Calvinism is true. He once believed the same things I do, but now he doesn't so, how can you say, "there is no hope for your wrong thinking" when I know someone who changed from Free Will to Calvinism. If you truly want to help someone know the Truth then answer questions.

beloved57
April 6th, 2012, 09:47 AM
cn


A Christian is one who has Faith in the Gospel, has Faith in God, and repents of his sins.

What is the Gospel ? As far as I can tell from your testimony and witness you reject the Gospel !

So far, I see nothing about you that constitutes a Christian, you hate the Gospel !


Still, you avoid answering questions

I do not answer question of a non christian and enemy of Jesus Christ !


how can you say, "there is no hope for your wrong thinking"

Well, I do not see Paul speaking as those who He said that were preaching a False Gospel, were to be confined to the deepest woes, and without hope of redemtion. I agree with Him on that at this time. Gal 1:8-9

8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Now that word accursed is the greek word anathema and means:


a thing set up or laid by in order to be kept

a) specifically, an offering resulting from a vow, which after being consecrated to a god was hung upon the walls or columns of the temple, or put in some other conspicuous place

2) a thing devoted to God without hope of being redeemed, and if an animal, to be slain; therefore a person or thing doomed to destruction

a) a curse

b) a man accursed, devoted to the direst of woes

Now, that is what I think of you and your gospel, and what I think is based upon the Authority of God's Word. Do you believe that Paul wrote this as He was inspired by God ? Does it sound like these false gospel preachers have hope to you ?

I do not care one thing about what your youth pastor said !

Christian_Nerd
April 6th, 2012, 11:29 AM
cn



What is the Gospel ? As far as I can tell from your testimony and witness you reject the Gospel !

So far, I see nothing about you that constitutes a Christian, you hate the Gospel !



I do not answer question of a non christian and enemy of Jesus Christ !



Well, I do not see Paul speaking as those who He said that were preaching a False Gospel, were to be confined to the deepest woes, and without hope of redemtion. I agree with Him on that at this time. Gal 1:8-9

8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Now that word accursed is the greek word anathema and means:


a thing set up or laid by in order to be kept

a) specifically, an offering resulting from a vow, which after being consecrated to a god was hung upon the walls or columns of the temple, or put in some other conspicuous place

2) a thing devoted to God without hope of being redeemed, and if an animal, to be slain; therefore a person or thing doomed to destruction

a) a curse

b) a man accursed, devoted to the direst of woes

Now, that is what I think of you and your gospel, and what I think is based upon the Authority of God's Word. Do you believe that Paul wrote this as He was inspired by God ? Does it sound like these false gospel preachers have hope to you ?

I do not care one thing about what your youth pastor said !

Did Christ only speak to those who were saved? No, Christ preached to sinners so that they would hear and may be saved. You said that you will not answer the questions of sinners, well, Christ answered the questions of sinners. The young ruler came to Christ and asked how to be saved, and Jesus answered Him. Now if we (Christians) are to be like Christ, then we are also to answer the questions of sinners.
You seem to judge others and tell them that they aren't Christians, but you still haven't answered the question: ARE YOU SAVED? You who won't even answer this question, are not in a place to judge, I judge according to God's Word when I say, you are still in sin; you are not a Christian. One who won't even proclaim that he follows Christ and is saved, does not sound like a Christian to me. Even though I believe that you are unsaved, I still know that there is hope for you to be saved. I don't condemn people by saying that there is no hope for them; you, however, condemn them. By the way, whether someone believes in Calvinism or in Free Will doesn't matter. A person must place their entire faith in the Bible, but they don't have to understand the entire Bible to be saved. For no one will understand everything in the Bible.

beloved57
April 6th, 2012, 12:31 PM
cn


Did Christ only speak to those who were saved?

What ? You have avoided everything I just posted ! Look if you do not respond to every point I made in post 141, then you will be ignored from here on out ! Now deal with those points !

Christian_Nerd
April 6th, 2012, 12:48 PM
I think you avoided everything I said.

If you do not answer the question of whether you are a Christians or not, then you do not have any place to judge or to preach.

beloved57
April 6th, 2012, 09:32 PM
I think you avoided everything I said.

If you do not answer the question of whether you are a Christians or not, then you do not have any place to judge or to preach.

That does it, so long pal ! See ya at the Judgment, and be accursed Gal 1:8-9

8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

beloved57
April 26th, 2012, 08:59 AM
John 3:16

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Those God Loved in Jn 3:16, that world, had to be viewed by God as in Union with Christ Jesus, those Chosen in Him. For God's Love for any people is in Christ Jesus Rom 8:39

39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

In the original " the Love of God " is thv agaphv tou qeou, as you can see it is preceded by the definite article, Identifying this as the exclusive Love of God, God has no other Love for men apart from His saving and Electing Purpose in Christ Jesus !

When writing about God's Purpose of Election in Rom 9, Paul writes in support of it by the comparing of the twins Jacob and Esau, to testify that it was Jacob that was God's Elect, he writes Rom 9:11-13

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth )

12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

This makes it plain that God's Love is exclusively associated with His Purpose of Election, which Purpose is in Christ Jesus , which Love He Loved them because of being in Him by Election before the foundation Eph 1:4 and Jn 17:23-24

23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

I challenge anyone to prove from scripture that the Love of God in Jn 3:16 is not the same exact Love of God in Rom 8:39. Now it would be above foolish to suppose that everyone in the world of Jn 3:16 was in Christ Jesus, but yet, would have to be if "so loved by God"

beloved57
May 7th, 2012, 12:18 PM
The World God so Loved and Christ Loved and gave Himself for Eph 5:25, is that universal society of people He foreknew, and those who Love God Rom 8:28-30. For they are the only People who are His, and because of Christ's Death for them, they do and shall depart from iniquity 2 Tim 2:19

Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

This they do [ depart from iniquity] because Christ by His Death did redeem them from it Titus 2:14

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

1 Pet 1:18-19

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

Being redeemed from a vain manner of Life, is being redeemed from iniquity experimentally, this was accomplished by the Blood of Christ alone !

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

Thats the world God Loved, the Redeemed world Rev 5:9


And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

beloved57
May 9th, 2012, 07:55 AM
God's Love to His Elect, which began from Everlasting , by choosing them in Christ, yet it never changes, even when they sinned in Adam their natural head, or even when they themselves enter into the world by natural generation and begin their personal transgressions, being BY NATURE children of wrath as are others[the non elect], as God has always Loved them, He changes them, converts them by giving them a New Birth from above, and hence they come to Love Him, because He first Loved them ! So God's Love makes a difference and change in them, beginning by His making them alive or quickening them while dead in Sins, so Paul writes of them Eph 2:4-5

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved )

If anyone does not experience this quickening together with Christ because of God's great Love for them, then God did not Love them at all !

Grosnick Marowbe
May 9th, 2012, 09:42 AM
A Christian is one who has Faith in the Gospel, has Faith in God, and repents of his sins.

Still, you avoid answering questions. The youth pastor at my church once believed that man had Free Will but now believes that Calvinism is true. He once believed the same things I do, but now he doesn't so, how can you say, "there is no hope for your wrong thinking" when I know someone who changed from Free Will to Calvinism. If you truly want to help someone know the Truth then answer questions.

Cn, beloved57 is an extremist "hyper-Calvinist" zealot. He follows ONLY his false belief system and has no desire for the truth...

beloved57
May 22nd, 2012, 08:47 AM
The Love that God has for His Own People is a Love perceived by them to be from Everlasting, David's perception of a Love that God had in His People from Old, or Everlasting Ps 25:6

Remember, O Lord, thy tender mercies and thy lovingkindnesses; for they have been ever of old.

David like all True Saints, know of God's Eternal Love for them in Christ Jesus Rom 8:39, and that His Mercies for their Salvation is from Everlasting to Everlasting Ps 103:17

But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;

Jer 31:3

3 The Lord hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

This is the only Love God has, and it is not for those whom He did not choose in Christ before the world began Jn 17:23-24

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

beloved57
May 25th, 2012, 05:57 AM
The False Teachers of our time and time past who teach that God loves all mankind without exception are nothing but deceivers and liars, for scriptures do teach the very opposite Rom 9:13

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Ps 5:5

5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

Now if God hates all the workers of iniquity, then they could not have been of that People of sinners that God so Loved Rom 5:8

8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners [ workers of iniquity], Christ died for us.

Now, if these are the same as those in Ps 5:5, we have a major contradiction, so to avoid such, it is plainly taught that God does not Love all sinners, for some, as per Ps 5:5 He does hate, and they shall not stand in the day of Judgment, they have no Saviour provided for them ! As God's Love is Immutable and not subject to change, so is His hate for some immutable and not subject to change, for just as His Church is Loved with an everlasting love, His enemies are hated with an everlasting hatred as the edomites symbolized Mal 1:4

4 Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the Lord of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the Lord hath indignation for ever.

They are the people of God's curse unto Judgment Isa 34:5

5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.

They all shall hear in the Great day Matt 25:41

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

beloved57
May 28th, 2012, 08:36 AM
Rom 9:11-15

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth )

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

God is Sovereign in both His Love and Mercy, and Grace which all go hand in hand Eph 2:4-5

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved )

Now just because we read in scripture that God is Love 1 Jn 4:8 and that He is merciful Ex 34:6;Deut 4:31, does not mean that He is not Sovereign with those qualities of His Nature, for He extends [apply] them unto whosoever He will, and of course witholds them to whomsoever he wills. A case in point are the Angels that left their first estate, God gave them No Mercy 2 Pet 2:4; Jude 1:6, nor not even a glimmer of hope of obtaining mercy, neither is there any proof that God Loved them his fallen creatures, since at no time we read that out of His Love for them, He gave His Son to die for them and their Apostasy !

So you see, God being a God of Love or a Merciful God was not benefit to them, non at all, and the same is true of some men !

beloved57
July 3rd, 2012, 02:29 PM
We know that Christ's coming into the World was not out of Love to all mankind without exception, neither to identify with the same, but for only His Brethren, and not according to the flesh Heb 2:17

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

His Brethren in view here are all those who does the will of His Father in heaven Matt 12:50

For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

And secondly, all those He became the Firstborn of Many Brethren to Rom 8:29

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Col 1:18

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Heb 12:23

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Christ came only into this World and assumed the likeness of sinful flesh for those here Eph 1:4-5

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Yes, only the predestined ones, same as in Rom 8:29

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

These are whom God's Love is limited to !

beloved57
July 22nd, 2012, 04:15 PM
Most religious People think that God's Love is a mere emotion, however that cannot be further from the Truth. The Bible Teaches that God's Love and the Love of Jesus Christ produces effects, results. For God so loved the World that He Gave His only begotten Son. Yes Christ coming into the World to save His Own was an effect of God's Love !

Jn 3:16

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


Gal 2:20

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

And Christ's giving of Himself, produces Results for them as Well. And it is by theses results that God's Love produces, it is impossible to conclude that God's Love and that of His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ is unto all mankind without exception !

Here is one of many effects of God's Love to those He loves 2 Thess 2:16-17

16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.


Those God Loved, along with that Love He gives [ to the Loved ones] everlasting consolation and good hope through Grace. If we do not have these things abiding within, chances are, God does not Love us, because that is one of the evidences He gives those He Loves.

This hope comes as a result of the New Birth 1 Pet 1:3

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

So it is appropriate to say that God Loves no man that does not receive a New Birth by the Resurrection of Jesus Christ from the Dead !

This means, if Christ had not been raised from the dead, then none of those He died for would be born again, our New Birth is in virtue of His Resurrection !

beloved57
July 23rd, 2012, 11:11 AM
Heb 12:6

For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

If God Loved all mankind without exception, then would He not chasten every man in the world without exception ? Since scripture states whom the Lord Loveth, he chaseneth !

This word chasteneth is the greek word paideuō and means:


to train children

a) to be instructed or taught or learn

b) to cause one to learn


Now scripture also says this regarding all the Father teaches and cause them to learn Jn 6:45

45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

This promise is concerning all those whom God Loveth, they will become believers in Christ, for He chastens them all !

These are also the Covenant Seed, those David wrote of here Ps 89:27-33

27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.

28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.

29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.

30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments; Which all the elect do by nature !

31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;

32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes. This is Divine chastening !

33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.

And chastening is always with profit in Holiness Heb 12:10-14

10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;

13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.

14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

Now it stands to reason, if God Loved all mankind without exception, all men without exception should partake of His Holiness vs 10 and afterward yield the peaceable fruit of Righteousness.

Now if this does not happen for every single person in the world without exception the word of God is a cheat ,a Lie ! Someone is lying, either the writers of scripture or those who teach that God loves everyone in the world without exception !

beloved57
July 24th, 2012, 06:07 AM
Jn 3:16

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Many of the followers of antichrist have twisted this scripture to their own destruction and force it to mean something to them that it does not mean at all, and that is that it says here that God Loved every human being of mankind without exception, which is so absurd. One scripture in the bible totally proves that interpretation false, for we must always understand scripture in light of scripture, and that is this scripture here Rom 9::10-13

10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth )

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

This scripture reminds us that God views Two manner of people in this world, based upon His Eternal Purpose in Christ Jesus. This was revealed to Rebecca early on in the her history and as it pertained to her Two Sons Gen 25:22-23

22 And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to enquire of the Lord.

23 And the Lord said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.

This actually happened to Eve, though not recorded as Twins, Two manner of People were separated from her bowels in cain and Abel, and similar to, one son was Loved and accepted of God, and one hated and rejected, and so it is in this world up to even now, some according to God's Purpose of Election are either of that manner of People that are Loved, like the Jacobs and Abel's, or they are of the manner that are hated as the cains and the esau's. God in the recordings here of the history of Rachel and her children is showing and typifying the Election of God as a separated People from the reprobates, the seed of the serpent or the children of perdition. Folks Jacob was Loved of God, but his brother was hated of God. God reminds later also of this separation amongst the manner of peoples in the world here Mal 1:2

I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,

A clear discriminating difference made by God again ! God said Yet I Loved only [implied] Jacob !

And folks that is how it is in John 3:16, its only the Jacobs of the World that are Loved by God, those Loved in His Redemptive Purpose in Christ Jesus Rom 8:39

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

In the original it is:

apo thv agaphv tou qeou thv en Xristw Ihsou tw kuriw hmwn.

The definite article the Love of the God, meaning that this is God's exclusive Love and it is exclusively in Christ Jesus, folks, God knows no other or has any other type Love save that which is grounded in His Election of some in Christ Jesus before the World began 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

That Purpose of His is mentioned again in Rom 9:11

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth )

Yes, thats Right, God's own Purpose of Election in Christ Jesus before the World began !

And Jacob was Loved according to that Purpose of Election, for you cannot separate God's Love from His Discriminate Choice, also seen in the Early Typical Dealings with Israel, and it reads Deut 7:6-7

For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

7 The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

The Loved of God are The Chosen of God, a Special People unto Himself !

Sorry folks, but that is a discriminate Love God reveals here, not shared with other people of the World !

So, premised upon scriptural evidence, the World Loved in Jn 3:16, is His Chosen World in Christ Jesus Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

And that is the Love of God in Christ Jesus, the One they are Chosen in ! Rom 8:39

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

If you do not believe in the Discriminate Elective Love of God in Christ Jesus, based upon His own Purpose of Election, we do not believe in the God of which it is written God is Love ! And the World that He so Loved is His Own Chosen People, a Special People above all others.

One Last thing, the very word for world has many different meanings, one of which is this, its the word kosmos:

1) an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government

2) ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars, 'the heavenly hosts', as the ornament of the heavens. 1 Pet. 3:3

3) the world, the universe

4) the circle of the earth, the earth

5) the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family

6) the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ

7) world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly

a) the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ

8) any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort

a) the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc)

Any aggregate collection of particulars !

What does aggregate mean ? Its a collection of particulars ! what does particular mean ?

of or pertaining to a single or specific person, thing, group, class, occasion, etc., rather than to others or all; special rather than general:

So All those collected together of God's Particular Election in Christ Jesus before the world began, is a World, this cannot be disputed, and that is the World God so Loved in Jn 3:16, the Elect of God !

beloved57
August 28th, 2012, 05:27 PM
That Love of God which it is said, For God so loved the World Jn 3:16 is that same Love that the Father had to His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, and the World that He Loved, He did so as He Loved Him Jn 17:23-24

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

It is therefore, all for whom God Loved, Jn 3:16 was a World in Union with Christ Jesus before the world began, and so He Loved it with a Love only found in Christ Jesus Rom 8:39

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

None can be seperated from this Love, and since scripture is clear that many shall be seperated from God's Love into Everlasting Fire, then such ones could not have been any of those God so Loved in Jn 3:16 ! The Fact is, if one was not Loved while in Union as One with Christ before the foundation of the World, then that one was never Loved by God, and that is a Election Union. What did God say to the Chosen Jews , which was but a very small remnant ? Deut 7:6-7

6 For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

7 The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

God was speaking only to Chosen Jews in Christ, before Him in Love and Holiness as here Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

beloved57
August 31st, 2012, 07:54 AM
People have confused God's providential care for all His creatures with His Eternal Love which is only for His Children Chosen in Christ Jesus before the World began, which is a huge difference. God as creator can and does providentially care and provide for all His Creatures without Loving them All in Christ Jesus, for instance, if one is a chief warden of a prison house of horrible and wicked prisoners of the worst kind, even though while they are under his watch and he must provide for their needs and care for them, give them water and food, medical attention if need be and etc, nevertheless he will do all this without having Loved them, these are things he must do, without having a tender affection for them are he does for his own children, that he provides for, for then is his disposition different ! God does provide those He does not Love in Christ with the necessities of Life because He is their Creator and must sustain them as long as His Purpose deems it necessary. Matt 5:45

That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

True Believers will emulate their Heavenly Father in this, as Jesus instructed here Lk 10:29-37, even though the stranger had religious differences and are our enemies in this cause, nevertheless, we should not withhold common mercies unto them when it is in our power to give it. This does not mean we Love them in Christ as our brother, in fact, they are enemies in that respect, but we do share a common lot together as God's Creatures, and should seek to be merciful to them if need be ! That is how God is towards them, even though He provideth not for their Eternal Salvation in Jesus Christ !

beloved57
October 4th, 2012, 06:32 AM
Whats the difference between sinners God hates as in Ps 5:5

5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.


Now notice, the scripture states here that God hates not just the iniquity of these sinners, but the worker or workers of iniquity, the very persons who are committing the iniquity !

But now, on the other hand, those Christ died for, scripture testimony states clearly that God Loved them as sinners, as workers of iniquity as per Rom 5:8

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Now clearly, the testimony here is that God commendeth His Love towards these, WHILE WE WHERE YET SINNERS !

So clearly, any honest heart can see that there is a difference with God in these Two different sets of sinners. One set is hated, and the other set is Loved.

Now here is the difference. The group that is Loved Rom 5:8, they had all their transgressions charged to Christ, their iniquities were never charged to them but to Christ in order that He would for them make full satisfaction to God's Law and Justice, God sent Christ to be the propitiation for their sins because He Loved them 1 Jn 4:10

Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

But those sinners that God hates Ps 5:5 those are all sinners whom sins and transgressions and iniquities are charged unto themselves, Yes iniquity is still charged upon their persons, and never was it charged to Christ in their behalf ! So consequently they will always be before God's Law and Justice, Workers of Iniquity, and even in spite of all their sincere religious endeavors, all they will hear in the Last Day of Judgment is these words Matt 7:22-23

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

So that is the difference, one group of sinners that God Loved while in their wickedness had all their wickedness charged to Christ, whereas, the group of sinners that God hates, had all their wickedness charged to themselves !

beloved57
October 4th, 2012, 07:40 AM
So some sinners are born under the Love of God and some sinners are born under God's hate. Its brought forth clearly also in Rom 9:11-14

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth )

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

Jacob as all the Elect of God are born sinners under the Love of God, and Esau as all the reprobate, the non elect, are born under the hate of God.

Many will say because of this that God is unrighteous !

beloved57
November 17th, 2012, 03:22 PM
Rom 8:39

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

τῆς ἀγάπης τοῦ θεοῦ

The definite article before Love ,lets us know that Paul is emphasizing the One and Only Love of the One and Only God, and its only in Christ Jesus our Lord !

What does that mean therefore ? How about Jn 3:16 ? If the World of Jn 3:16 were not already a Chosen World in Christ Jesus, a World Chosen in Him before the Foundation Eph 1:4, then it would be a World that God did not so Love, for God cannot Love and does not Love anyone outside of Christ, already covered with His Righteousness and Washed in His Blood, for His Love can only be in Christ Jesus Our Lord !

Those born outside of the pale of Election in Christ, are not Loved but hated by God !

beloved57
January 31st, 2013, 04:39 PM
Rom 9:13

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

That God does not Love all men, but in fact that He hates some, is seen here in this most hated by natural man portion of Truth, and if this verse was not enough for there is another that even moreso reveals God's hate for Esau and Love for Jacob Mal 1:2-3

2 I have loved you, saith the Lord. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the Lord: yet I loved Jacob,

3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

Thats discriminant Love. This hate is not a sinful passion of hatred like Titus 3:3

3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

And God's hate of an individual does not deny them creature comforts, His providential care as their Creator, thats clear from Jesus words here Matt 5:44-45

44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven:r for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth gain on the just and on the unjust.

God forbids His Children to ck human compassion for his fellow creature [though they may be a enemy to Truth] they are still from a creature perspective his neighbor. Jesus Illustrates this point here Lk 10:29-36

29 But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?

30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.

31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.

32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.

33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,

34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.

35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.

36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?

In Vs 33 that word compassion is the greek word splagchnizomai and means:


to be moved as to one's bowels, hence to be moved with compassion, have compassion (for the bowels were thought to be the seat of love and pity)

Let me give you an example of how this can practically play out. Those who are false gospel preachers and enemies in the gospel like those of Gal 1:8-9 or those false teachers who come bringing a false doctrine of Christ and believers are to show them no hospitality whatsoever as Per 2 Jn 2:1:10

If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

Now in this situation no hospitality should even be allowed. Now, if this same person was seen by us perhaps in a burning car and could use our help in saving their life, then we should not lack the human compassion to attempt to save that persons life in any way feasible, just because they are an enemies of the Truth ! There should be a love or a compassion in us to aide that person even though from a spiritual stand point they are our enemy. We still should not ever invite them to hospitality in our homes as before in 2 Jn 2:1:10

A person does not have to be another believer in order for us to show human compassion for them which is another form of love !

Yes, I believe God Loves the non elect in that capacity as their Creator, not as their Heavenly Father, and God's Children should Love the non elect in that way but not as their brothers in Christ !

Even in natural things of doing good, preference should be made to those of the Household of Faith over the unbeliever Gal 6:10

As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.

Even that imperative is discriminating !

beloved57
January 31st, 2013, 06:26 PM
Now Esau whom God stated that He hated did bless him with providential blessings and comforts, but these are no indications that He Loved him, but merely provided for him as He does all His creatures See Gen 36:6.

However the Love that God had for His Elect Jacob that He did not have for esau, a Love that esau and all non elect persons are excluded from, they being rejected of the Lord,is a hate of exclusion from Eternal Love in Christ Jesus. They are excluded from this Love Rom 8:39

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Remember Jesus prayer and He said this about His disciples and believers Jn 17:23-24

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Thats the Love of God in Christ Jesus, Loved before the foundation of the World even as Christ was Loved.

The non elect like the esau's are excluded from that Love, and so hated !

All outside of this exclusive Love of God, for in the original it reads with the definite article:

της αγαπης του θεου της εν χριστω ιησου τω κυριω ημων

Then we are viewed by God only as workers of Iniquity whom God hates Ps 5:5

5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

Remember these Jesus said of Matt 25:1-2


Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.

And are these not the same as here Matt 7:23

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

The foolish virgins and they that work iniquity are the same that God hates, and they are excluded from the Kingdom of His Love !

beloved57
February 3rd, 2013, 05:07 PM
Eph 2:4-5

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved )

If God so Loved all men without exception as it is falsely believed today, that Great Love that it is, That word Great denotes: Strong , Intense,Large Love, then why did He not because of it by,Quicken them all without exception while they were dead in trespasses and sins, as stated here that He did or those He Loved Eph 2:4-5

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved )

Notice that this quickening occurs, even when or while we ourselves are being dead in sin.

Now this is key, because this quickening takes place even while we are in a present state of rebellion and unbelief,its while being [present tense] dead in sin. Its similar to when or while we were being enemies, we were reconciled to God.

Quickening does not come as a result of ones faith, repentance, and contrition over sin, but it comes while we are in the grasp of spiritual death and "we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind;"

Similar to the Apostle Paul at the time his quickening took place, it was while he was in a hateful rage against Christ and his followers See Acts 9:1ff

The only condition for this quickening on the sinners part is to be dead in sin, and on God's part, that He Loved them with a Great Love while they were dead in sin and rebellion !

So why aren't all men without exception quickened ? That word quicken literally means [I make alive together with.]

The reason why God did not do that to all mankind without exception is because He does not Love all mankind without exception !

beloved57
February 18th, 2013, 02:09 PM
Here we have the discriminating Love from the Saviour's Mouth Rev 3:19

19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Now if Christ Loved all men without exception,why the discriminating statement here " as many as I Love " ?

He goes on to say of them He Loves, that He rebukes and chastens, and to them He commands to Repent !

The Fact is this, Christ does not Love all men without exception, and they are without chastisement from Him Heb 12:5-8

5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all[Sons] are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Christ Loves only His Own in this wicked World Jn 13:1

Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.


Now something I will add in this regard, Remember the Rich Young Ruler of whom it is said Jesus Loved ? Mk 10:17-22


17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?

18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.

21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.

Now remember, Heb 12:5-8,11 about chastening ? Notice Vs 11


11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

That word grievous is the same word grieved as in Mk 10:22, so Jesus Loved that young ruler and made Him feel grief, because He was chastening him because He Loved him !

I have no doubt that the Young Man will be in Glory, because Jesus Loved Him ! Whose Love is discriminate !

beloved57
February 25th, 2013, 06:18 AM
We know God does not Love all men without exception, because God, The True God is Love. God's attribute of Love is essential to His Essential and Eternal Being, He could not be God without being Love. The Love of God, which God is, is Immutable and cannot suffer change. Now understand this, God could not be Love if His Love did not have objects to Love, and the objects of His Love must be as Eternal as He is, or His Love is not Eternal, which means He is not Eternal, because He is Love ! We know for a Fact that God the Father had a object had a object of His Love before the foundation of the World Jn 17:24

24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

The Father Loved Him this early as the Mediator Prov 8:30

30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

However, the Love to His Son was not to Him as a plain Individual, but as the Head and Mediator of His Body the Church, So Jesus goes on to say Jn 17:23

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Now as He was the Fathers delight Prov 8:30, those The Father gave Him to Mediate for was His Delight Prov 8:31

31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

As Mediator they were the Children God hath given Him Heb 2:13

13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me [to delight in].

So, the Father has Loved the Members of His Body, whom He gave to Him, as He Loved the Son, which Love is before the foundation of the World. So they have that exclusive Love of God which is in Christ Jesus Our Lord and Mediator Rom 8:39

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Christ Jesus is the Mediator 1 Tim 2:5

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Now were all men without exception Chosen in Christ ? For God so Loved His Chosen Deut 7:6-7

6 For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

7 The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

No, this passage proves that God's Love is exclusive to a certain people that He has chosen !

In the greek Rom 8:39 the Love of God in Christ is exclusive Love, for it reads with the definite article:

τῆς ἀγάπης τοῦ θεοῦ τῆς ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ τῷ κυρίῳ ἡμῶν.

beloved57
February 25th, 2013, 03:20 PM
Since God is Love and that He is Holy, the objects of His Love must be also Holy, now this can apply only to God's Elect, which because of their Election in Christ before the World Began, God doeth see them in Him at all times Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Even while in and of themselves, they are unholy and enemies. Other than this, God cannot Love unholy creatures 2 Tim 3:2

2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

You see, all those Chosen in Christ, though in themselves unholy as others, yet because of being in Christ, they are BEFORE GOD Holy and Without Blame ! Eph 1:4

God does not even charge them with their trespasses 2 Cor 5:19, though they come out the womb trespassing against Him as do the Wicked Ps 58:3

The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Thou they are born sinners as others, God does not charge them with sin, their slate is clean before Him, not for their own sakes, but for the sake of Him He chose them in before the foundation !

For God is Eternally Perfect and Essentially Holy in all His Divine Properties, and His Holy Love cannot rest upon objects that are otherwise, for if God's Love rested upon any unworthy objects [ outside of election in Christ] objects that are inferior to His Own Perfection, it would be a declension and inconsistency from His Excellent Dignity and Glory Heb 1:9

9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

And only those He Loved in His Son fits the Bill Rom 8:39

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

A Holy Love for Holy Objects !

Epoisses
February 26th, 2013, 12:41 AM
What an excellect essay on human love! You have no concept of God's agape love. For God so loved the world that.....

God even loves you with all your sin and worthless calvinistic drivel. Jesus died for you and offers you a brand new life with no sin whatsoever. In order to receive this new life, your old life has to die and that's hard part..

No man can be born again until the old man is put to death.

beloved57
February 26th, 2013, 10:30 PM
We know God does not Love all mankind without exception by John 3:16, simply because God's Love for men, if He Loved them at all, is in Christ Jesus Rom 8:39

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Which Love of God, the objects of it cannot be separated from it according Rom 8:39.

Now many shall be cast into the lake of Fire as cursed souls with the devil and his angels Matt 25:41

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Now if those are not going to be separated from the Love of God in this horrible state, then what is. Will they continue in this everlasting fire not separated from the Love of God that is in Christ Jesus Rom 8:39 which is the same Love of God in Jn 3:16 ?

If these creatures were ever Loved of God, which is in Christ Jesus, then we must concede that while in that cursed everlasting condition, that God still Loves them as He did here Jn 3:16, with that His Exclusive Love which is in Christ Jesus Rom 8:39.

BTW in Rom 8:39, the Love of God is definite and distinct, it follows the definite article in the original:

ἀπὸ τῆς ἀγάπης τοῦ θεοῦ τῆς ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ τῷ κυρίῳ ἡμῶν.

There is no such thing as a different or lesser Love of God, or any other such foolish and wicked inventions of men with depraved minds who resist the Truth. God either Loved us from all Eternity with His Eternal Love in Christ Jesus or He did not, ain't no in between. Those goats on His Left Hand, were not of the World God Loved, and their Eternal Death, separation from Him is evidence, lest Rom 8:39 is a Lie !

beloved57
March 14th, 2013, 03:03 PM
All whom God Loved and Christ died for, by His Death alone they are given hope through Grace 2 Thess 2:16

16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

This Good Hope comes through being begotten again by the Resurrection of Jesus Christ from the Dead 1 Pet 1:3

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

None whom God Loved will not be given this Hope ! Which is related to Faith !

beloved57
March 26th, 2013, 04:38 PM
Eph 2:4-5

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved )


Now how can these whom God Loved while they were dead in sin, and as Paul writes in Vs 2- 3

walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

This is describing most wicked and ungodly conduct to say the least, and yet God had not just Love but Great Love for them, even as they worked nothing but iniquity, then how could they be the same as these Ps 5:5

5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

Now by Nature and wicked behavior whats the difference ?

Yes we have scripture Testimony that God had Great Love for one group while wicked in behavior Eph 2:2-4, and Hatred for the other group while wicked in behavior Ps 5:5.

The difference is this, God's Love for the One group was because they were His Chosen Eph 1:4-5, for God's Love and choice of a People go hand and hand Deut 7:6-7

For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

7 The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

The same Love and choice is seen in Eph 1:4-5, 2:4.

So its the Love of God in Christ Jesus Rom 8:39

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

BUT the other group are not God's chosen, and so hated by God Ps 5:5, so its God's Eternal Love in Christ Jesus and Election in Christ that makes the difference in the groups of evil doers, one Loved and Chosen in Christ, and the others not !

beloved57
March 26th, 2013, 07:08 PM
Because God Loved His Chosen while they were dead in sin Eph 2:4-5, That's evidence that they belonged to Him and were even then His Sons 1 Jn 3:1

Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

So they are His Sons both Places 1 Jn 3:1 and Eph 2:4-5

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved )

This Great Love and the What Manner of Love 1 Jn 3:1 is the same Love of God and for the same objects, His Sons !

The Love of God for them in 1 Jn 3:1 is no Greater for them than it is for them in 1 Jn 3:1, if Sons here, then Son's there.

This proves that to be a lie which states believers were not Sons of God before Faith, that's equivalent to saying that they were Not Loved by the Father before Faith, which would contradict Eph 2:4-5

4 But God[The Father], who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ[The Son], (by grace ye are saved )

Epoisses
March 26th, 2013, 11:37 PM
We know God does not Love all mankind without exception by John 3:16, simply because God's Love for men, if He Loved them at all, is in Christ Jesus Rom 8:39

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Which Love of God, the objects of it cannot be separated from it according Rom 8:39.

Now many shall be cast into the lake of Fire as cursed souls with the devil and his angels Matt 25:41

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Now if those are not going to be separated from the Love of God in this horrible state, then what is. Will they continue in this everlasting fire not separated from the Love of God that is in Christ Jesus Rom 8:39 which is the same Love of God in Jn 3:16 ?

If these creatures were ever Loved of God, which is in Christ Jesus, then we must concede that while in that cursed everlasting condition, that God still Loves them as He did here Jn 3:16, with that His Exclusive Love which is in Christ Jesus Rom 8:39.

BTW in Rom 8:39, the Love of God is definite and distinct, it follows the definite article in the original:

ἀπὸ τῆς ἀγάπης τοῦ θεοῦ τῆς ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ τῷ κυρίῳ ἡμῶν.

There is no such thing as a different or lesser Love of God, or any other such foolish and wicked inventions of men with depraved minds who resist the Truth. God either Loved us from all Eternity with His Eternal Love in Christ Jesus or He did not, ain't no in between. Those goats on His Left Hand, were not of the World God Loved, and their Eternal Death, separation from Him is evidence, lest Rom 8:39 is a Lie !

It is easy to look at the final end of sin and sinners and say God loved these who are saved and not these who are lost. But this is a false picture which usually stems from our human understanding of God and his love. God's love or 'agape' in the greek is an unconditional expression which shines on every living thing like the sun. Some respond to this love and are changed by it and some who love darkness turn away. It is important to understand however, that God loves all people because he created all people and Christ has died for all people.

'That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.' Matt 5:45

beloved57
March 27th, 2013, 03:48 AM
epo


It is easy to look at the final end of sin and sinners and say God loved these who are saved and not these who are lost Do you understand post 169 ? Rehearse the points with me so I can see you understand them.

Epoisses
March 27th, 2013, 09:00 AM
epo

Do you understand post 169 ? Rehearse the points with me so I can see you understand them.

Yea, I'll get right on that!

beloved57
April 25th, 2013, 02:52 PM
Jer 31:3

3 The Lord hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

Those whom God Loved in Christ from Everlasting, or before the world began Jn 17:23-24

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them [The Church], as thou hast loved me.

24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

The very same are drawn to God effectually ! Now by saying therefore, that gives us the signal that the drawing was due to the Everlasting Love, which is only in Christ Jesus Our Lord Rom 8:39

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

This Love of God is exclusive, no other Love does God have save that which is in Christ Jesus ! This Love is founded in Eternal Election in Christ, or we cannot be Loved by God from Everlasting, no one can ! And if we were, without doubt He will draw us to Himself, He will quicken us Eph 2:4-5

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us [Jer 31:3],

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved )

If God Loved us, then He saves us by His Grace !

Desert Reign
April 25th, 2013, 03:41 PM
We know God does not Love all men without exception, because God, The True God is Love. God's attribute of Love is essential to His Essential and Eternal Being, He could not be God without being Love. The Love of God, which God is, is Immutable and cannot suffer change. Now understand this, God could not be Love if His Love did not have objects to Love, ... blah, blah, drivel, drivel

Yet another know-it-all who thinks he can tell God what he must be and what he must do in order to be God. Sad, but also tasteless.

beloved57
April 25th, 2013, 04:02 PM
Yet another know-it-all who thinks he can tell God what he must be and what he must do in order to be God. Sad, but also tasteless.

You reject the Truth. See ya at the Judgment !

beloved57
July 27th, 2013, 07:07 AM
John 3:16

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The World here God so loved, sorry, but its not all mankind without exception, but all mankind without distinction, and those of mankind that are the Son's of God. Now how do we know this ? Because if God so loved us, then we are the Sons of God 1 Jn 3:1

Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

Now the Word gave in Jn 3:16 is the greek word didōmi nd its the same word bestowed in 1 Jn 3:1 !

For the Love of God and its objects are the same in both instances,The Son's or Children of God !

So one cannot be So Loved by God and not be a Child of His. It's God's Son's and His Brethren that Christ came to redeem Gal 4:5

But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

To receive the Adoption of Sons means that it [Sonship] will become public and declared openly !

And because the redemption price has been paid by the blood of Elder Brother Christ, the Sons receive the Spirit of Adoption in their Hearts Gal 4:6

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

With the reception of the Spirit of Adoption in our hearts [which is New Birth also], we now have the Right and Privilege to be declared the Children of God y Our Believing in our Elder Brother Christ, which is John's point here Jn 1:12-13

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

That word sons as in sons of God in Jn 1:12 is the same greek word for sons in 1 Jn 3:1

Its also the same word used here when those whom by His death shall be gathered are pointed out Jn 11:52

51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one[B] the children of God that were scattered abroad.

And that's who God so Loved and bestowed His Son upon, the World of His Children.

And no, all men are not God's children, their distinct identifying manifestation shall be Faith in their Elder Brother who redeemed them back to God. Gal 3:26

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

And those in Jn 3:16 believing in the Son, are the children of God whom God So Loved !

lovemeorhateme
July 27th, 2013, 07:25 AM
If God hates His enemies yet commands us to love our enemies wouldn't that make Him a hypocrite? If God tells us that hating someone makes us a murderer at heart and yet at the same time He hates certain people, wouldn't that make God a murderer at heart?

beloved57
July 27th, 2013, 08:22 AM
If God hates His enemies yet commands us to love our enemies wouldn't that make Him a hypocrite? If God tells us that hating someone makes us a murderer at heart and yet at the same time He hates certain people, wouldn't that make God a murderer at heart?

Did you follow the points of post 179 ?

lovemeorhateme
July 27th, 2013, 08:29 AM
Did you follow the points of post 179 ?

None of post 179 addresses the questions I just asked.

beloved57
July 27th, 2013, 08:58 AM
None of post 179 addresses the questions I just asked.

That's because you first evaded post 179 !

lovemeorhateme
July 27th, 2013, 09:08 AM
That's because you first evaded post 179 !

No, post 179 doesn't address my questions in post 180. How about you stop evading post 180 and answer my questions?

beloved57
July 27th, 2013, 09:12 AM
No, post 179 doesn't address my questions in post 180. How about you stop evading post 180 and answer my questions?

Post 180 does not address post 179, it evades it.

lovemeorhateme
July 27th, 2013, 09:21 AM
Post 180 does not address post 179, it evades it.

I didn't claim my post addresses yours. I said that your post does not address the questions I have. Do you have answers to my questions or are you going to continue being facetious?

:rolleyes:

beloved57
July 27th, 2013, 09:46 AM
lve


I didn't claim my post addresses yours

And I did not say it did.

beloved57
August 7th, 2013, 05:14 AM
We know that God did not and does not Love all men without exception for the simple fact, all men without exception are not His Elect or Chosen People. For Election is the fruit of God's Love Deut 7:6-7

6 For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

7 The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

Again, those Loved or Believed by God are chosen to Salvation 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Deut 14:2

2 For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God, and the Lord hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himselflf, above all the nations that are upon the earth.

Of course this is manifested in the Church Titus 2:14

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Yes those who are Beloved of God 2 Thess 2:13 are the same as here John 3:16, and as such they were from the beginning chosen to Salvation; For no one can be Loved by God and not be of His Chosen Deut 7:6-7 and Chosen to Salvation through Jesus Christ, and we should know that all mankind without exception are not His Chosen, because the Chosen automatically indicates the rejection of others, the rest that are not chosen, not Loved, expressed in the Words, Jacob have I Loved, esau have I hated Rom 9:13

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

beloved57
December 7th, 2013, 08:56 PM
We know that God does not Love all mankind because those He Loved in Christ Rom 8:39

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Those He so Loved in Christ Jesus , He quickens them or Regenerates them Eph 2:4-5

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us[Jn 3:16],

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved )

They also experience His Mercy, For God's Love and Mercy go together, hand and hand Rom 9:13-15. Now here we see that those who are the objects of His Great Love & Mercy are made Alive, that's when they are subjectively saved.

Now the same Truth is stated here Titus 3:5

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

According to His Mercy He saved us, or made us alive, when we were in fact dead in sin. Now this was foreshadowed here in the OT Ezk 16:6,8-9 and please notice what God says in Vs 8

8 Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord God, and thou becamest mine.

" behold, thy time was the time of love;" meaning it was time for God to apply His Love to the Hopeless situation Like to Lazarus, whom He Loved. In Eph 2:5 He by Love applied makes us Alive, Here in Ezekiel 16 He says Live

6 And when I passed by thee, and saw thee polluted in thine own blood, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live; yea, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live.

This is the same as Eph 2:5-6 ! Folks, if people are Loved by God, He raises them up from the dead by giving them Life through Christ; For He raises them up from the dead that was caused by their sins, for it is written Rom 6:23, however if our sins have been paid for, then in Justice and Love He makes us Alive Again Lk 15:24

24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

Now , does God make all men without exception Alive ? No He does not, so He does not Love all men without exception !

beloved57
December 9th, 2013, 05:46 AM
Another portion of scripture that proves that if God Loved us, as He did these Jn 3:16;13:1, then He makes us Alive as Per Eph 2:4-5 shows, it is this one 1 Pet 1:1-3, and again His Love is adjoined with His Mercy. Lets notice Vs 3 1Pet 1:1-3

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

The objects of His Love /Foreknowledge are begotten again according to his abundant mercy

This is the same as what Paul wrote here Titus 3:5

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

"according to his mercy he saved us", saved us here = " begotten us again " in 1 Pet 1:3.

But you may ask, exactly how are the said to be Loved by God in this passage ? Its by the word foreknowledge in Vs 2 which can also be rendered foreloved, denoting an Intimacy of affection and possession.

The word foreknowledge is comprised of Two Greek words, one being the word ginōskō:

I.
to learn to know, come to know, get a knowledge of perceive, feel
A.
to become known


II.
to know, understand, perceive, have knowledge of
A.
to understand

B.
to know


III.
Jewish idiom for sexual intercourse between a man and a woman

IV.
to become acquainted with, to know

It is used here in 1 Cor 8:3

But if any man love God, the same is known G1097 of him.

But one may object and say that this verse speaks of one Loviing God, Yes correct, but what is the cause of that ? 1 Jn 4:19

19 We love him, because he first loved us. So back to 1 Cor 8:3, to be known of Him means to be first Loved by Him, and all for whom God so Loved, are Loved in and through Jesus Christ Rom 8:39

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Which Love does predate the beginning of the World Jn 17:23-24

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me:] for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world[/COLOR].

And all So Loved by God Jn 3:16, do experience an application of His Love through Christ and His Mercy by being begotten again by the Resurrection of Jesus Christ from the Dead 1 Pet 1:1-3, it is impossible to be Loved by God, and not be begotten again, or made alive by it Eph 2:4-5

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved )

The Love of God in Jn 3:16 is that same Great Love in Eph 2:4 and it has the same operating effect ! God does not just Love in word only, but in deed also !

beloved57
December 17th, 2013, 01:16 PM
wrong thread

beloved57
December 26th, 2013, 09:09 AM
Love to Christ and God evidence God's Love for us, if He Loved us. Do you want to know who it is God So Loved here Jn 3:16

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Its is them, and them only that reciprocate that Love to Him and His Son the Lord Jesus Christ, not that Loving them is conditional in any way, but that its evidential as in indicativeof Him having first Loved Us !

For He Loved those He Loved while they were yet sinners and dead in trespasses and sins as proved here Eph 2:4-5

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved )

When we are dead in sin, God is our enemy in our minds Col 1:21

21 And you, that were sometime alienated[dead in sin] and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

However, the Result of His Loving them despite themselves, is that they do receive a Circumcised Heart to Love Him.

Remember Deut 30:6

6 And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Now lets read Jesus words to His Disciples that He had Chosen Jn 16:27

27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

In other words, Jesus is saying their Love of Him is evidential of the Fathers Love to them Jn 3:16.

Jesus once said to a group of people, even physical ethnic jews this Jn 8:42

42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

That's a deep Truth, but Truth nonetheless. Their lack of Love to Christ was an evidence that God was not their Father, and remember later Jesus tells His Chosen Disciples, save judas, this Jn 16:27

27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

If God is Our Father, it will result in Love to Christ Jn 8:42 !

Now I cannot understand for the life of me, how and why people read these words in Jn 8:42, and yet insist that all mankind without exception have God as their Father, it makes no sense and totally ignores the main implication of the verse, and again these were even ethnic jews who did have Abraham physically for their father as Per Jn 8:37

37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. See Rom 9:8 !

Listen, all men and women whom God Loved, He Loved them in Christ before the foundation of the world, and all of them shall by Spiritual Heart Circumcision, another name for New Birth, shall be given a New Heart to Love God and Christ, and so we rad 1 Jn 4:19

19 We love him, because he first loved us.

The word because hoti a conjunction meaning:

I.that, because, since. It means primarily the reason why, we now love Him or due to the fact that.

We Love Him now due to the fact that He first Loved us !

beloved57
December 26th, 2013, 11:51 AM
Now why is it that those God So Loved Jn 3:16, eventually come to Love Him and Christ ? Well first and foremost of all, Those God the Father Loved , He gave His Son to die for them Jn 3:16 and Rom 8:32-34

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Notice, this is important and often overlooked, something, because things come with the Giving of Christ. The word with is the word sun and means:

with, together with . Even though it does not expressly say this in Jn 3:16, its none the less True and is stated here, and together with giving Christ He gave them all things. The word gave charizomai:


I show favor to, (b) I pardon, forgive, (c) I show kindness.


I.to do something pleasant or agreeable (to one), to do a favour to, gratify

A.to show one's self gracious, kind, benevolent


B.to grant forgiveness, to pardon


C.to give graciously, give freely, bestow

i.to forgive

ii.graciously to restore one to another


iii.to preserve for one a person in peril

John Gill writes of this portion:


how shall he not with him freely give us all things? Christ is God's free gift to his elect; he is given to be a covenant to them, an head over them, a Saviour of them, and as the bread of life for them to live upon: he is freely given; God could never have been compelled to have given him; Christ could never have been merited by them; nothing that they could give or do could have laid him under obligation to have bestowed him on them; yea, such were the persons, and such their characters, for whom he delivered him up, that he might have justly stirred up all his wrath against them; and yet such was his grace, that he has given his own Son unto them; and not him alone, but "all things" with him: all temporal good things, needful and convenient; all spiritual blessings, a justifying righteousness, pardon of sin, sanctifying grace, adoption, and eternal life: and all "freely", in a sovereign way, according to his own good will and pleasure, without any obligation or compulsion; not grudgingly nor niggardly, but cheerfully and bountifully, absolutely, and without any conditions; for he is not moved thereunto by anything in them, or performed by them.

All for whom Christ died for, as a Gracious Gift of Grace, By His Death alone they are given a Permanent Sanctification Heb 10:10

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

This word sanctified is:

I make holy, treat as holy, set apart as holy, sanctify, hallow, purify.

And its in the Perfect Tense. Its permanently done and results remain to the present !

Now this Sanctification does ensure as an confirmation and evidence of Christ's Sanctification by His Death, a Sanctification by the Spirit of God, and all whom Christ's Death Sanctified, its expedient/appropriate for the Spirit to Sanctify and Set them apart for God's Service, 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Its stated another way here Gal 3:13-14

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

All whom He redeemed by being made a Curse for, shall receive the Promise of the Spirit, it shall come upon them !

Now this Work of the Spirit is How their Spiritual Head and Father, Christ, gives them the Covenant Blessing of Spiritual Circumcision of the Heart, and with this comes to pass the Promise of Deut 30:6

6 And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

The Spirit is Given along with Christ, and He sheds the Love of God in Our Heart Rom 5:5

5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

The Love here is Love to God, because the giving of the Spirit brings with is His Fruit of which Love is among them Gal 5:22

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

This Love given by the Spirit causes us to Love God, Christ, and Our True Brethren in the Lord, Our Spiritual Family in God. 1 Jn 4:7-13

7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.

12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. His Spirit which causes us to Love God and His People.

These things must and will be, If indeed God So Loved Us Jn 3:16 !

beloved57
January 27th, 2014, 04:56 PM
In the day of Judgment, many false teachers will be delt with in strict Justice as James points out James 3:1

My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.

That is if we prove to be false teachers, then we shall be held at a higher accountability before God in that day !

One of popular false teachings today is that God Loved or Loves all mankind without exception, and this arrogant assumption is no where found in the scripture, but in fact the very opposite is taught. Most false teachers use Jn 3:16 to promote their deception, when in Fact Jn 3:16 says nothing about Loving everyone [without exception] in the world, not even close. Yes it does say for God so Loved the World, but it does not say For God so loved everyone in the world without exception. A Man's World is His Family, that's who God so Loved, the World of the Sons of God 1 Jn 3:1

Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

Now is the whole world without exception the Sons of God ? No way ! Remember Jesus told some jews one day Jn 8:42-44

42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Jesus points out Two different Fathers, God is a Father, and the devil is a father, God Loves those that Love Jesus, and by that Love they have for Him, it gives evidence that God Loves them.

Paul wrote 1 Cor 16:21-24

21 The salutation of me Paul with mine own hand.

22 If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.

23 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.

24 My love be with you all in Christ Jesus. Amen.

Now, who would be foolish enough to suppose that Paul would denounce as accursed those that He Knew God Loved ?

In fact, who would Paul wish this upon if He was suppose to Love them according to the golden rule ?

Now lets look briefly at the words Anathema Maranatha ! The Greek words anathema:


a votive offering, a thing devoted to God; a curse, the thing cursed.

Its used in Gal 1:8-9

8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.


and marana tha:


(Aramaic), either: Our Lord hath come, or: Our Lord cometh (will come, is at hand).

Now the ISM reads:If anyone doesn't love the Lord, let him be condemned! May our Lord come!

Whoever does not love our Lord Yeshua The Messiah, let him be damned. our Lord has come.

I believe that Paul is saying, let those who are not Loving Our Lord Jesus Christ be condemned and cursed at His Coming !

Now this is key, why doesn't Paul say Love them and Pray for them ? Why doesn't he say Pray for their conversion to Christ ?

This we know, if a man does not Love God and or Christ who is God Manifested in the flesh, then there is no evidence of God having loved that man, for John writes 1 Jn 4:19

19 We love him, because he first loved us.

That's a stated fact, because if God Loved us, He gives us His Spirit and circumcised hearts to Love Him Rom 5:5

And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Deut 30:6

6 And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

That's Spiritual Circumcision from the New Birth Rom 2:28-29

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

You see, everyone God so Loved and Christ died for in Jn 3:16 is guaranteed to receive this Circumcision and begin to Love God in Christ !

All such are the True Sons of God !

beloved57
January 27th, 2014, 06:52 PM
Now, the reason why the false teachers shall be under more condemnation, because more than likely they have been showed from scripture that God does not Love all mankind without exception , however its because they want to hold to their idol of freewill, and glory in their decision making ability, they reject the clear truth of scripture by rationalizing it away .

Its impossible that all men without are said to be the objects of God's Love for many reasons in Jn 3:16, first and foremost because it does not say that in first place for it is perverted into the text.

Now in addition it cannot even mean that God Loved Loved every individual without exception because it is written Mal 1:2-3

The burden of the word of the Lord to Israel by Malachi.

2 I have loved you, saith the Lord. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the Lord: yet I loved Jacob,

3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

Rom 9:13

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Now if God and His Word makes such a plain declaration tat God said He hath hated esau, why do some pervert the text in Jn 3:16 and say that God Loves all individuals in mankind without exception ?

This is evidence that those who teach the universal love of God for all individuals, that they have no reverence for God's Truth, no fear of God !

Jabin
January 27th, 2014, 07:04 PM
Rom 9:13

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Now if God and His Word makes such a plain declaration tat God said He hath hated esau, why do some pervert the text in Jn 3:16 and say that God Loves all individuals in mankind without exception ?

No biblically literate person can believe God loves everyone. No reasonable person can believe God loves everyone. And, the teaching that God loves everyone has done a lot of harm to the church - it teaches people that Christians are hypocrites for not holding Liberal values.

BTW, to the confused people who appeal to John 3:16 to argue that God loves everyone: If you take "the world" to mean everything in the world then you would have to conclude that God loves evil, for the world is full of evil. If it doesn't mean everything, then it doesn't mean everyone.

beloved57
January 28th, 2014, 06:03 AM
There is no reason to believe that God Loved all mankind without exception, if He did, and He is Immutable, then we must conclude that the rebroabte who have died hating God as all men by nature do, that they are now in the eternally damned state still Loved by God ! If He does not still Love them, then He is mutable, which is blasphemous to think !

Now, did God Love Pharoah Rom 9:17

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

How about Sihon king of Heshbon Deut 2:30

But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the Lord thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand, as appeareth this day.

Did God Love these people whose hearts He hardened against Joshua ? Josh 11:20

20 For it was of the Lord to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favour, but that he might destroy them, as the Lord commanded Moses.

Did God Love the Amalekites Ex 17:14

14 And the Lord said unto Moses, Write this for a memorial in a book, and rehearse it in the ears of Joshua: for I will utterly put out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven.

How about the Canaanites, did God Love that people ? Deut 20:16-18
16 But of the cities of these people, which the Lord thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:

17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee:

18 That they teach you not to do after all their abominations, which they have done unto their gods; so should ye sin against the Lord your God.

Does God Love the workers of Iniquity ? Ps 5:5

5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

What about those He Created for destruction, the Wicked and the Vessels of Wrath, does God Love them ? Prov 16:4

4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Rom 9:22

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Job 21:30

That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.

Is God Merciful to those He hardens for destruction Rom 9:18

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

If God so Loved all humanity as in every individual without exception, then we must answer in the affirmative for the above, and we must conclude that His Love is the same now for the reprobated dead as it has always been, unless we charge Him with being mutable Mal 3:6

For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

beloved57
February 7th, 2014, 11:33 PM
The Lord Jesus Christ will make it clear in the day of Judgment that He never Loved all mankind, meaning those going into everlasting perdition, for He shall say unto them Matt 7:23

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

He states quite clearly to these people that He never knew them, for that cannot be said of any He Loved, these are the rejected and unloved reprobated of the world, the esau's of the world, the people of His indignation forever Malachi 1 :4, made they were for damnation, appointed to it before the foundation of the world, so He shall also say unto them Matt 25:41

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Cursed because they were never Chosen or Loved by the Father, sothey were cursed from the beginning; The fact that the cursed and damned were never Loved by God is indisputable by the fact that those He did Love, He chose them for Salvation from the foundation of the world Eph 1:4-5

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Matt 25:34


34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Now if those chosen for salvation are so chosen from the foundation of the world, then those cursed going into perdition were also chosen and appointed for perdition, condemnation, damnation from the foundation Jude 1:4

4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

This teaching makes it clear that God could not have Loved all mankind without exception as the false teachers proclaim by corrupting and usurping Jn 3:16 ; for when Christ, God Man, states that He never knew the condemned, that is what He meant, He never knew them as His Own Sheep Jn 10:4,14-15

4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Those He knew and laid down His Life in behalf of, He Loved Eph 5:25

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; Cp Jn 10:15 !

Those He does not know nor Love, and never knew He casts them into Hell !

beloved57
June 16th, 2014, 04:58 PM
We know God does not Love all men without exception, because all for whom God Loves He quickens them from a dead state of sin ! Eph 2:4-6

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved )

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

If He Loved us, He quickened us together with Christ !

In other words, God does not merely just Love in word, but also in deed, in action, in application !

He even tells His children the same 1 Jn 3:18

My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

God Illustrates His Love for His sin misery and helpless people here Ezk 16:5-6

5 None eye pitied thee, to do any of these unto thee, to have compassion upon thee; but thou wast cast out in the open field, to the lothing of thy person, in the day that thou wast born.

6 And when I passed by thee, and saw thee polluted in thine own blood, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live; yea, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live.

8 Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord God, and thou becamest mine.

That word live in Vs 6 corresponds with making alive in Eph 2:5

Its the hebrew word chayah and means:

I.to live, have life, remain alive, sustain life, live prosperously, live for ever, be quickened, be alive, be restored to life or health

And the word quickened in Eph 2:5 which follows His Love is syzōopoieō which means:

I.to make one alive together

I.
to produce alive, begat or bear living young

II.
to cause to live, make alive, give life
A.
by spiritual power to arouse and invigorate

B.
to restore to life

C.
to give increase of life: thus of physical life

D.
of the spirit, quickening as respects the spirit, endued with new and greater powers of life


See God must give all for whom Christ died new Life out of the dead because Christ has taken away the penalty of their sins, which is death, so He must say to them out of the provision of His Love, Christ, Live ! And this Living is Everlasting Life !

Christian Liberty
June 17th, 2014, 02:19 PM
No biblically literate person can believe God loves everyone. No reasonable person can believe God loves everyone. And, the teaching that God loves everyone has done a lot of harm to the church - it teaches people that Christians are hypocrites for not holding Liberal values.

BTW, to the confused people who appeal to John 3:16 to argue that God loves everyone: If you take "the world" to mean everything in the world then you would have to conclude that God loves evil, for the world is full of evil. If it doesn't mean everything, then it doesn't mean everyone.

How do you interpret Matthew 5:43-47?

I have yet to have a satisfactory answer to that question that has led me to be able to reject the idea that God loves every person in some sense.

However, it is indeed Biblically obvious that God does not love everyone the same way.

beloved57
July 14th, 2014, 07:04 AM
Those so Loved in Jn 3:16

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

A World of sinners Rom 5:8

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Yet they could not be any outside of His Eternal Love in and through Christ Jesus their Mediator and His Son Rom 8:39

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

In the original it reads:

οὔτε ὕψωμα οὔτε βάθος οὔτε τις κτίσις ἑτέρα δυνήσεται ἡμᾶς χωρίσαι ἀπὸ τῆς ἀγάπης τοῦ θεοῦ τῆς ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ τῷ κυρίῳ ἡμῶν

Emphasis on the greek definite article describing the Love of God, denoting God's One and Only being that which is through the Mediation of Christ.

For an Holy God could not have Loved sinners just for the sake of them being evil sinners in themselves, for in such a case they are unholy rejected reprobates, and objects of His hatered, hence Rom 9:13

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

And of course Ps 5:5

5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

These are sinners outside of Christ Jesus the Mediator where Gods Love centers Rom 8:37, sinners that Jesus never knew Matt 7:23

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Now understand, in order to have been objects of God's Love in Christ Jesus, in some real sense we had to be united to Him, which comes from being Chosen in Him in Love Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

The same so loved of Jn 3:16 !

Now sinners outside of Christ, those He will say to " I never knew you" Matt 7:23, therefore God could not have Loved, but did hate as esau and the workers of iniquity, God hated them from before the foundation, even from everlasting, just as He Loved the Elect, He chose in Christ, from before the foundation, and from everlasting Jn 17:23-24 ; Jer 31:3

And unto them the hated, He had predetermined not to have mercy on them [salvation mercy] in reference to Eternal Life Jude 1:21

21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Hence they never had part of being of those whhich are called Vessels of Mercy Rom 9:23

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

And this by Eternal Divine predetermination to be exempt from His Love and Mercy found only in Election in Christ !

beloved57
July 25th, 2014, 10:26 PM
Hos 14:4

4 I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely: for mine anger is turned away from him.

This is a benefit bestowed upon those God so Loves freely like Jn 3:16, That He heals their backsliding. Now the word backsliding is the hebrew word mĕshuwbah and means:

I.turning away, turning back, apostasy, backsliding. Its also rendered faithlessness

Jer 3:22

"Return, O faithless sons, I will heal your faithlessness." "Behold, we come to You; For You are the LORD our God. NAS

Apostacy is related to turning from the Faith, a departure as here 1 Tim 4:1

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

That word depart means:

C.to fall away, become faithless

Now God, unto them He Loves Freely hath promised to heal their backsliding and or faithlessness !

The word heal Hos 14:4

I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely: for mine anger is turned away from him.

Its the same word found here Isa 53:5

But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Which we know Peter applies to the Cross of Christ 1 Pet 2:24

24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Healed from what ? From our backsliding and departure from God, from our faithlessness ! Now this healing is attributed to the Death of Christ, His stripes ! Hos 14:4 is looking to the days of Christ, and His finished work for God's Elect People.

This is a Promise Blessing upon all whom God so freely Loved in Christ. Now are all men without exception healed of faithlessness, and backsliding ? The answer is an obvious No ! The backsliding of the Elect of God began in Adam, their Natural Head Created in the Image and Likeness of God Gen 1:26 !

Nanja
July 26th, 2014, 03:36 PM
Hos 14:4

4 I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely: for mine anger is turned away from him.

This is a benefit bestowed upon those God so Loves freely like Jn 3:16, That He heals their backsliding. Now the word backsliding is the hebrew word mĕshuwbah and means:

I.turning away, turning back, apostasy, backsliding. Its also rendered faithlessness

Jer 3:22

"Return, O faithless sons, I will heal your faithlessness." "Behold, we come to You; For You are the LORD our God. NAS

Apostacy is related to turning from the Faith, a departure as here 1 Tim 4:1

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

That word depart means:

C.to fall away, become faithless

Now God, unto them He Loves Freely hath promised to heal their backsliding and or faithlessness !

The word heal Hos 14:4

I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely: for mine anger is turned away from him.

Its the same word found here Isa 53:5

But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Which we know Peter applies to the Cross of Christ 1 Pet 2:24

24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Healed from what ? From our backsliding and departure from God, from our faithlessness ! Now this healing is attributed to the Death of Christ, His stripes ! Hos 14:4 is looking to the days of Christ, and His finished work for God's Elect People.

This is a Promise Blessing upon all whom God so freely Loved in Christ. Now are all men without exception healed of faithlessness, and backsliding ? The answer is an obvious No ! The backsliding of the Elect of God began in Adam, their Natural Head Created in the Image and Likeness of God Gen 1:26 !


This Promise Blessing can be for no others than the ones that make up the "world"
that God so Loved John 3:16 and reconciled to Himself 2 Cor. 5:19, and that Christ
gave His Life for: His Church Eph. 5:25, chosen in Him before the foundation Eph. 1:4; 2 Tim. 1:9.
So, it could never apply to all mankind, but only a residue / remnant of them;
all the Election of Grace Rom. 11:5. For God's Saving Grace He reserved for them only!

~~~~~

beloved57
July 26th, 2014, 03:39 PM
This Promise Blessing can be for no others than the ones that make up the "world"
that God so Loved John 3:16 and reconciled to Himself 2 Cor. 5:19, and that Christ
gave His Life for: His Church Eph. 5:25, chosen in Him before the foundation Eph. 1:4; 2 Tim. 1:9.
So, it could never apply to all mankind, but only a residue / remnant of them;
all the Election of Grace Rom. 11:5. For God's Saving Grace He reserved for them only!

~~~~~

Bless You Young Lady !

Nanja
July 26th, 2014, 03:49 PM
Bless You Young Lady !

Bless You tooooo, Young Man! ☺

~~~~~

beloved57
July 26th, 2014, 03:59 PM
Hosea 14:4

4 I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely: for mine anger is turned away from him.

Now Listen, all whom God so Loved freely, and Gave His Son for Jn 3:16, by His giving Him, and the satisfaction that His Life and death provided to His Law and Justice for them, satisfying God's Justice for every sin they committed or will commit, hence God's anger is turned away from them, He has for them been propitiated 1 Jn 2:2 ; 4:10

Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

That forms the basis and principle for which God heals their backsliding, and such healing gives them Faith and steadfastness, for that is the opposite of backsliding !

So its impossible for One God Loves to remain faithless, Christ has for them turned away all of God's anger and wrath from them, He has appeased Him for them, now Justice demands the healing to take place ! If healing does not take place, there is a miscarriage of Justice on God's Part as it pertains to Christ having already satisfied His Justice for their sins, nothing now blocks the flood gate of Spiritual Blessings being bestowed upon them Eph 1:3-4

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Yes those spiritual blessings heals our backslidings !

Bright Raven
July 26th, 2014, 04:10 PM
How can you say that God does not love all men if he sent his son to be a propitiation for their sin while they were still sinners.

Nanja
July 26th, 2014, 05:09 PM
How can you say that God does not love all men if he sent his son to be a propitiation for their sin while they were still sinners.


God does not love these: Psalm 5:5 KJV
Christ loved, and gave His Life for these: Eph. 5:25; John 10:11,15

~~~~~

beloved57
July 26th, 2014, 05:39 PM
How can you say that God does not love all men if he sent his son to be a propitiation for their sin while they were still sinners.

Read my threads !

Posted from the TOL App!

Ben Masada
July 27th, 2014, 08:51 AM
How can you say that God does not love all men if he sent his son to be a propitiation for their sin while they were still sinners.

He didn't. God would not operate against his own prophets. God was the one Who inspired Jeremiah and Ezekiel to write that no one can die for the sins of another. (Jer. 31:30; Ezek. 18:20)

oatmeal
July 27th, 2014, 01:00 PM
oatmeal:



To His own..

I John 2:2

Jesus Christ was the propitiation for the sins of the whole world

John 3:16

God so loved, just the believers? NO, God so loved the world....

It is difficult, if not impossible for the carnal Christian to apprehend such depth and magnaminuous love

Yet the spiritually minded can comprehend the love of Christ. Ephesians 3:17-19

Bright Raven
July 27th, 2014, 01:15 PM
He didn't. God would not operate against his own prophets. God was the one Who inspired Jeremiah and Ezekiel to write that no one can die for the sins of another. (Jer. 31:30; Ezek. 18:20)

Romans 5:8 King James Version (KJV)

8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

beloved57
July 30th, 2014, 09:27 PM
I John 2:2

Jesus Christ was the propitiation for the sins of the whole world

John 3:16

God so loved, just the believers? NO, God so loved the world....

It is difficult, if not impossible for the carnal Christian to apprehend such depth and magnaminuous love

Yet the spiritually minded can comprehend the love of Christ. Ephesians 3:17-19

The whole World of Israel, Salvation is promised to only People Isa 45:17

17 But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

Israel is God's Elect World, you look for Salvation outside of that Promise, you are on sinking sand ! Matt 1:21 !

beloved57
July 30th, 2014, 09:29 PM
Romans 5:8 King James Version (KJV)

8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

The Us is God's Elect, Israel !

beloved57
August 26th, 2014, 02:25 AM
God's Love in Jn 3:16 is consisten with His Love in the purpose of Election, for this purpose is revealed in Rom 9:11-13

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

This Illustrates that within the Purpose of Election, God does not Love all mankind without exception, but only a special portion of it !

Now this revelation of God's Love to the natural man is that it makes God seem unrighteous, or unfair, unjust, so Paul anticipating that thought says in Rom 9:14

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

14 What shall we conclude then? Is there injustice upon God’s part? Certainly not!AMP

14 So what are we going to say? Isn’t this unfair on God’s part? Absolutely not! CEB

14 So are we to say, “It is unjust for God to do this”? Heaven forbid!

Thats the natural mans respond to the Biblical Truth of Gods Love, that it is indeed discriminatory, and it is not based upon physical descent, hence the distinction between Two of Isaac's physical sons, both from the same Mother Rebekah !

Only Jacob has God Loved, as demonstrated in expounding on God's Purpose of Election Rom 9:11

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

Also, God has set His Love upon His Chosen here Deut 7:6-8

6 For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

7 The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

8 But because the Lord loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the Lord brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

This Love of God for His Chosen here is grounded in His Purpose of Election, which is in Christ before the foundation, In Love Eph 1:4-5

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

See, most people are deceived into thinking that the Chosen in Deut 7:6-8 are the physical seed of Abraham, national Israel, but sorry its not, only a remnant of them was Loved and Chosen, Pauls point here Rom 11:7

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

The rest of physical and national israel was blinded because it had no part in God's Election, only the Election did , which obviously was different from the rest of the nation !

And those God so Loved [ Jn 3:16], His Chosen [Eph 1:4], He so Loved them from Everlasting, and with Lovingkindness He draws them Jer 31:3

3 The Lord hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

And the result of His Lovingkindness drawing them, they shall put their Trust in Him as per Ps 36:7

7 How excellent is thy lovingkindness, O God! therefore the children of men put their trust under the shadow of thy wings.

Dr Gill comments on this verse :


How excellent is thy lovingkindness, O God,.... Which has appeared to men and not angels, to some and not others; to the chief of sinners, who are by nature children of wrath as others; in choosing, redeeming, and calling them, taking them into his family, and making them heirs of eternal glory; and all this of his sovereign good will and pleasure, there being nothing in them that could move him to it; which lovingkindness was in his heart from everlasting, and will never change in him, nor depart from them; and hence it must be most excellent and precious:

therefore the children of men put their trust under the shadow of thy wings; not all men; for all have not faith, only some, to whom it is given to believe, and who know the Lord and his lovingkindness; by which they are induced and encouraged to trust in him, to betake themselves to him for mercy and protection, which they find in him: the allusion is either to the hen that gathers her chickens under her wings, and protects them in time of danger, and so it expresses both the paternal affection of God to his people, and the protection of them; or else to the wings of the cherubim over the mercy seat, between which the Lord sat and communed with his people, and showed mercy and favour to them, which encouraged them to trust in him.

Thats why its ensured that some amongst mankind shall Trust in Him Rom 15:12

12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

Heb 2:13

13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

The Children here are therefore the Children of men here Ps 36:7

7 How excellent is thy lovingkindness, O God! therefore the children of men put their trust under the shadow of thy wings.

Thats the World of Jn 3:16, those who Believe on or Trust in Christ !

beloved57
August 26th, 2014, 04:32 AM
Jn 3:16

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

God has only one Love, which is call the Love of God in Christ Jesus Rom 8:39

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

In the greek the word Love has the definite article before it, marking it off as the peculiar Love of God:

οὔτε ὕψωμα οὔτε βάθος οὔτε τις κτίσις ἑτέρα δυνήσεται ἡμᾶς χωρίσαι ἀπὸ τῆς ἀγάπης τοῦ θεοῦ τῆς ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ τῷ κυρίῳ ἡμῶν

That Love is en Christ Jesus ! The prep en :

A primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest (intermediate between

This denotes Union with, or Union with Christ ! Its no escaping the conclusion when scripture is compared with scripture, that the World So Loved in Jn 3:16 had to be a World in Union with Jesus Christ since we learn that God's Love in Christ Jesus is exclusive, in that it is termed " The Love of God in Christ Jesus Our Lord"

That world therefore would be the World of His Chosein in Christ the Beloved Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Thats the Love of God in Christ !

Thats the World of Jn 3:16 !

beloved57
September 1st, 2014, 05:18 AM
We know that God did not so love all men without exception, because He did not quicken all men without exception out of being spiritually dead in trespasses and sins as He does for them He so Loved in Christ, observe Eph 2:4-5

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

What was being dead in sins ? Its that which Paul describes in Vs 2-3 :

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Its that walk and behaviour that constitutes man by nature dead in sins, and those God so Loved Jn 3:16 are quickened out of that !

Yes they are quickened out of that which includes unbelief, disobedience, and enmity of mind as in Col 1:21

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

But those men and women He so Loved Jn 3:16 He quickened them together with Christ Eph 2:4-5; this was also seen from OT scripture here Ezk 16:6-8

6 And when I passed by thee, and saw thee polluted in thine own blood, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live; yea, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live.

7 I have caused thee to multiply as the bud of the field, and thou hast increased and waxen great, and thou art come to excellent ornaments: thy breasts are fashioned, and thine hair is grown, whereas thou wast naked and bare.

8 Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord God, and thou becamest mine.

This is describing Eph 2:2-5, and all whom God so Loved has a time of Love, that is when God applies His Love to those He Loves when He sees and saves them out of their miserable condition they are in by nature !

All for whom He so Loved Jn 3:16 are by Him saved from a Spiritually dead state, and that solely by quickening Grace out of His Spirit, it had nothing to do with them repenting, believing, obeying, willing, but because of His Great Love wherewith He Loved them, He saw them dead in sin, and said with His Sovereign Voice of the Spirit :

6 And when I passed by thee, and saw thee polluted in thine own blood, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live; yea, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live.

And that was :

8 Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love;

Nanja
September 1st, 2014, 08:18 AM
We know that God did not so love all men without exception, because He did not quicken all men without exception out of being spiritually dead in trespasses and sins as He does for them He so Loved in Christ, observe Eph 2:4-5

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

What was being dead in sins ? Its that which Paul describes in Vs 2-3 :

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Its that walk and behaviour that constitutes man by nature dead in sins, and those God so Loved Jn 3:16 are quickened out of that !

Yes they are quickened out of that which includes unbelief, disobedience, and enmity of mind as in Col 1:21

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

But those men and women He so Loved Jn 3:16 He quickened them together with Christ Eph 2:4-5; this was also seen from OT scripture here Ezk 16:6-8

6 And when I passed by thee, and saw thee polluted in thine own blood, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live; yea, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live.

7 I have caused thee to multiply as the bud of the field, and thou hast increased and waxen great, and thou art come to excellent ornaments: thy breasts are fashioned, and thine hair is grown, whereas thou wast naked and bare.

8 Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord God, and thou becamest mine.

This is describing Eph 2:2-5, and all whom God so Loved has a time of Love, that is when God applies His Love to those He Loves when He sees and saves them out of their miserable condition they are in by nature !

All for whom He so Loved Jn 3:16 are by Him saved from a Spiritually dead state, and that solely by quickening Grace out of His Spirit, it had nothing to do with them repenting, believing, obeying, willing, but because of His Great Love wherewith He Loved them, He saw them dead in sin, and said with His Sovereign Voice of the Spirit :

6 And when I passed by thee, and saw thee polluted in thine own blood, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live; yea, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live.

And that was :

8 Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love;


Amen!

No greater love story than the Gospel of Jesus Christ
and His great Love wherewith He So Loved His Church!
John 3:16

~~~~~

oatmeal
September 1st, 2014, 08:28 AM
oatmeal:



To His own..

The sins of the whole world, not just those who choose to accept that gift. I John 2:2

Evidently, comprehending the extent of God's love is out of reach of some at this time.

We share the gospel to any and all. What they choose to do with it, is entirely up to them

beloved57
September 1st, 2014, 09:07 AM
oatm


The sins of the whole world, not just those who choose to accept that gift. I John 2:2


You quoted from a post of mine in making this comment, show us which post it was. Thanks !

beloved57
September 1st, 2014, 09:16 AM
Amen!

No greater love story than the Gospel of Jesus Christ
and His great Love wherewith He So Loved His Church!
John 3:16

~~~~~

It would be a travesty to the Mercy, Grace and Love of God, to see one He so loved in such a pitiful spiritually dead and wrteched condition, and having the Love, Power and Wisdom to deliver them from it, does not.

It would be Him failing to put into practice the very Character that His Children should have to those they Love and see in a pitiful condition 1 Jn 3:16-18

16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

Well God's deed to them He so Loved when He sees them dead in sin is make them Live Ezk 16:6

6 And when I passed by thee, and saw thee polluted in thine own blood, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live; yea, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live.

Nanja
September 1st, 2014, 03:28 PM
It would be a travesty to the Mercy, Grace and Love of God, to see one He so loved in such a pitiful spiritually dead and wrteched condition, and having the Love, Power and Wisdom to deliver them from it, does not.

It would be Him failing to put into practice the very Character that His Children should have to those they Love and see in a pitiful condition 1 Jn 3:16-18

16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

Well God's deed to them He so Loved when He sees them dead in sin is make them Live Ezk 16:6

6 And when I passed by thee, and saw thee polluted in thine own blood, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live; yea, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live.


Yes it would be.

But we know that's not possible because He does deliver / save to the uttermost,
those He loved and gave His life for Eph. 1:3-7; Heb. 7:25; Eph. 5:25-27 . And because
the rest of (the whole) world lieth in wickedness 1 John 5:19, it is evident that the ones
"God so loved" John 3:16 is a just tiny remnant of the whole world; Is. 1:9; not all of mankind.

So as Christ does love, and gives Spiritual Life to His Children,
so they also love one another in deed and in truth: One Body in Christ! Rom. 12:5

Eph. 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works,
which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

~~~~~

beloved57
September 1st, 2014, 03:43 PM
nanja


Yes it would be.

But we know that's not possible because He does deliver / save to the uttermost,
those He loved and gave His life for Eph. 1:3-7; Heb. 7:25; Eph. 5:25-27

Sure you right !


And because
the rest of (the whole) world lieth in wickedness 1 John 5:19, it is evident that the ones
"God so loved" John 3:16 is a just tiny remnant of the whole world; Is. 1:9; not all of mankind.

A tiny remnant indeed, yet a multitude that no man can number Rev 7:9 ! Thats why the tiny remnant can still be called the Many Matt 20:28 !



So as Christ does love, and gives Spiritual Life to His Children,
so they also love one another in deed and in truth: One Body in Christ! Rom. 12:5

Eph. 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works,
which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Yes all the circumstances are prearranged by God to accomplish His Purpose of good works !

Nanja
September 1st, 2014, 03:54 PM
beloved

A tiny remnant indeed, yet a multitude that no man can number Rev 7:9 ! Thats why the tiny remnant can still be called the Many Matt 20:28 !

Yes, indeed! TY

~~~~~

beloved57
September 23rd, 2014, 02:23 AM
Jn 3:16

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

This world that God so Loved is not all mankind without exception as the false religionists do thrust upon us, but it is the World of all the Gathered Children of God Jn 11:52

52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

Those whom God so loved, The Children fof God 1 Jn 3:1

Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

beloved57
October 1st, 2014, 03:43 AM
Ps 146:8

The Lord openeth the eyes of the blind: the Lord raiseth them that are bowed down: the Lord loveth the righteous:

Now, are all without exception the Righteous ? There is no proof from scripture that God Loves anyone that He does not consider The Righteous.

Oh yes for sure God Loves sinners Rom 5:8

8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

But, notice something about these sinners ! Christ died for them !

Thats Key to understanding something, which is this, All the sinners God Loved, Christ died for, are by that Death, also called His Obedience unto Death Phil 2:8, by that they are made Righteous Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

So thats evidence and proof that God Loveth the Righteous, for His Love makes them Righteous through the Obedience of Christ !

If any fall into this category 1 Cor 6:9

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

That means Two things, That God did not Love them, and that Christ did not die for them, because if He did, they shall be made Righteous !

beloved57
February 26th, 2015, 08:19 AM
Who are the objects of God's Love from Everlasting ? It is written Jer 31:3

3 The Lord hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

To whom is this meant ? I have Loved thee with an Everlasting or Eternal Love !

Its none other that the Church, the Body of Christ meant here ! Its as when Jesus prayed these words regarding members of His Body Jn 17:23-24

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

The reason why this could be said, "The Father Loved them as He Loved Christ His Beloved Son, before the foundation of the World, its because His Church was in a Elective Union with Him, and therefore Loved in Him, Christ Jesus Rom 8:39

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

This Love of God is exclusive, its preceded by the definite article, there is no other Love of God save that which is in Union with Christ Jesus !

Some may contend that Jesus means His Disciples in Jn 17, which is correct, however it doesn't mean only the Disciples to whom He was speaking, because they were part of an whole Elect society, the Body of Christ 1 Cor 12:12

12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

Rom 12:5

So we[Apostles/believers], being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

So God's Love for His Son, who by God is the Head of His Body the Church, necessitated that He Loved the entirety of His Son equally, so hence we have Jn 17:23-24.

This Love of God was in Christ Jesus, and time and eternity cannot separate His Members from it, If we are of the Church, the Elect Rom 8:33,37-39,

So that's who is being referred to in Jer 31:3, and to think its referring to any Love of God outside the Church which is In Christ Jesus, He being its Head, is error and foolish !

Word based mystic
February 26th, 2015, 09:14 AM
nice twisting beloved

How does it feel to name yourself beloved

yet in your philosophy describe God the Father as one who hates and condemns His other created Children.

Do your twisting scripture dance. enjoy your condescension. Hate Where God calls for love.
Hope that any children you may have has not been predestined to hell.

I will pray that The robot maker God which you worship will be silenced. And the liar God who has deceived your mind and closed your ears and eyes to the truth That God is Love. He is the one whom offers salvation and redemption to (all) men.

Sad to see the twisted hate that has been birthed in your judgements
It is a means to justify your hatred.

Nanja
February 28th, 2015, 08:47 AM
Who are the objects of God's Love from Everlasting ? It is written Jer 31:3

3 The Lord hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

To whom is this meant ? I have Loved thee with an Everlasting or Eternal Love !

Its none other that the Church, the Body of Christ meant here ! Its as when Jesus prayed these words regarding members of His Body Jn 17:23-24

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

The reason why this could be said, "The Father Loved them as He Loved Christ His Beloved Son, before the foundation of the World, its because His Church was in a Elective Union with Him, and therefore Loved in Him, Christ Jesus Rom 8:39

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

This Love of God is exclusive, its preceded by the definite article, there is no other Love of God save that which is in Union with Christ Jesus !

Some may contend that Jesus means His Disciples in Jn 17, which is correct, however it doesn't mean only the Disciples to whom He was speaking, because they were part of an whole Elect society, the Body of Christ 1 Cor 12:12

12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

Rom 12:5

So we[Apostles/believers], being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

So God's Love for His Son, who by God is the Head of His Body the Church, necessitated that He Loved the entirety of His Son equally, so hence we have Jn 17:23-24.

This Love of God was in Christ Jesus, and time and eternity cannot separate His Members from it, If we are of the Church, the Elect Rom 8:33,37-39,

So that's who is being referred to in Jer 31:3, and to think its referring to any Love of God outside the Church which is In Christ Jesus, He being its Head, is error and foolish !



Amen!

The Elect Church, whom the Father had chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world,
are the only portion of mankind that God loves. These comprise the "World" spoken of in:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,
that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Actually, because this World was chosen in Christ Eph 1:4 their Head, they were already declared
Righteous from Eternity, even before being born in sin, and before they ever come to believe on Him.

2 Cor. 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself,
not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

So yes, the Scriptures are a witness to the fact, God did not love all men in the world without exception.

~~~~~

beloved57
February 28th, 2015, 09:37 AM
Amen!

The Elect Church, whom the Father had chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world,
are the only portion of mankind that God loves. These comprise the "World" spoken of in:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,
that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Actually, because this World was chosen in Christ Eph 1:4 their Head, they were already declared
Righteous from Eternity, even before being born in sin, and before they ever come to believe on Him.

2 Cor. 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself,
not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

So yes, the Scriptures are a witness to the fact, God did not love all men in the world without exception.

~~~~~

Amen and the World in John 3:17 is the Elect World, the same ones stated to be His People in Matt 1:21 !

Nanja
February 28th, 2015, 11:33 AM
Amen and the World in John 3:17 is the Elect World, the same ones stated to be His People in Matt 1:21 !

Yes, and the same ones described in Is. 45:17 !

~~~~~

beloved57
February 28th, 2015, 11:57 AM
Yes, and the same ones described in Is. 45:17 !

~~~~~

There you go!

Bright Raven
February 28th, 2015, 07:36 PM
1 Corinthians 8:3 King James Version (KJV)

3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him.

beloved57
February 28th, 2015, 11:51 PM
1 Corinthians 8:3 King James Version (KJV)

3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him.

There you go again, quoting scripture you don't believe or understand!

kiwimacahau
March 1st, 2015, 03:13 AM
Jesus made quite clear that his death was for all people. Jno 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself." No distinctions, no waffling, no exceptions, all drawn to Him who loved us and died for us.

Truster
March 1st, 2015, 03:18 AM
Jesus made quite clear that his death was for all people. Jno 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself." No distinctions, no waffling, no exceptions, all drawn to Him who loved us and died for us.

You should have noticed that ''peoples''is in italics, but why bother with accuracy?

kiwimacahau
March 1st, 2015, 03:32 AM
That is because it is an addition. Take it out, still means the same.

Truster
March 1st, 2015, 03:39 AM
That is because it is an addition. Take it out, still means the same.

If the statement means what you imply it means then all would be saved, but they are not. So, either the prophecy has failed and the words of Messiah have not borne the fruit He said they would or you are mistaken in your interpretation of the words.

''Let Elohim be true and all men be liars''.

beloved57
March 1st, 2015, 03:01 PM
Jesus made quite clear that his death was for all people. Jno 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself." No distinctions, no waffling, no exceptions, all drawn to Him who loved us and died for us.

Invalid statement !

oatmeal
March 1st, 2015, 03:20 PM
Romans 9:13


13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

How can it be sincerely taught that scripture teaches that God loves all men without exception, when it specifically says of Esau, God Hated ?

And I got news for you, He did not only hate Esau, but all the workers of iniquity. Ps 5:5


5The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

And they that work iniquity shall soon hear these words Matt 7:23


23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Yes, these and those in Ps 5:5 are the very same !


Easy, God sets priorities. In priority, God loved Jacob, but in priority hated Esau, did not God take care of Esau?

beloved57
March 2nd, 2015, 01:39 AM
Easy, God sets priorities. In priority, God loved Jacob, but in priority hated Esau, did not God take care of Esau?

Invalid comments!

patrick jane
March 2nd, 2015, 01:48 AM
You should have noticed that ''peoples''is in italics, but why bother with accuracy?

well, that word "all" is important too - :Patrol:

beloved57
March 2nd, 2015, 03:19 AM
well, that word "all" is important too - :Patrol:

Yeah and it is important to understand what it means !

beloved57
March 25th, 2015, 05:20 AM
This fact alone is proof that God does not Love all men without exception, because as it is written Heb 12:6-7

6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

Are all Sons ? Of course not,neither are all Loved by God !

Rev 3:19

19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Jesus specifically says here "As many as I love" I chasten !

Why doesnt He just say, I love all without exception, so i will chasten all without exception ? The very fact that He qualifies whom He Loves by saying "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten" proves that His Love is Limited to an exact amount of Sons !

Who is it limited to ? Lets look at Heb 12:7

7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

Why its the Sons of God Gal 4:6

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Now everyone Christ died for and redeemed automatically received the Adoption of Sons Gal 4:4-5

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that[hina purpose clause] we might receive the adoption of son

And because that was so, God sends forth the Spirit of His Son in our hearts !

And none are the Sons whom God is not the Father of as implied when Jesus spoke to certain jews Jn 8:42

42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

We may safely conclude therefore that none who do not come to Love Christ, of which Paul writes of them 1 Cor 16:22

22 If any man[jew or gentile,black or white] love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.

Because they are not Sons, and Not Loved by God ! They are exempt from being any of these Jn 3:16 !

Nanja
March 25th, 2015, 07:42 AM
This fact alone is proof that God does not Love all men without exception, because as it is written Heb 12:6-7

6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

Are all Sons ? Of course not,neither are all Loved by God !

Rev 3:19

19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Jesus specifically says here "As many as I love" I chasten !

Why doesnt He just say, I love all without exception, so i will chasten all without exception ? The very fact that He qualifies whom He Loves by saying "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten" proves that His Love is Limited to an exact amount of Sons !

Who is it limited to ? Lets look at Heb 12:7

7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

Why its the Sons of God Gal 4:6

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Now everyone Christ died for and redeemed automatically received the Adoption of Sons Gal 4:4-5

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that[hina purpose clause] we might receive the adoption of son

And because that was so, God sends forth the Spirit of His Son in our hearts !

And none are the Sons whom God is not the Father of as implied when Jesus spoke to certain jews Jn 8:42

42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

We may safely conclude therefore that none who do not come to Love Christ, of which Paul writes of them 1 Cor 16:22

22 If any man[jew or gentile,black or white] love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.

Because they are not Sons, and Not Loved by God ! They are exempt from being any of these Jn 3:16 !



Amen!

The majority of the world of mankind does not Love the Lord Jesus Christ.
They mock, debase, defame, disrespect and blaspheme Him every day.
These are the devil's children, the tares Mat. 13:25, 38, whose end is to be burned Mat. 13:40.

But the world that God gave His Son for John 3:16; 2 Cor. 5:21 is an Elect remnant
of the whole of mankind whom He had Chosen in His Son before time,
to be holy and without blame before Him in Love Eph. 1:4.

~~~~~

Word based mystic
March 25th, 2015, 08:05 AM
umm let me see

my wife and i birth a child with the intention of hating the child

stupid thought

umm
my wife and i decide to try and have a child so that

we can take that child out into a barn hang them on a rack and have someone torture them for all eternity. Without ever giving them the dying for all empowerment to receive and believe.

(child abuse in any court of law.)
wait oh i am sorry that is called (love) in the (hyper calvinists court of law) as well as justice. Once again we just need to redefine the word LOVE.


God is love and He loves all His created children.

however some deny and are destined for destruction
matthew 10:33 "But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.

romans 10:12-13 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED

Word based mystic
March 25th, 2015, 08:18 AM
and don't lay that doctrine out that mens souls are (NOT) created by God

eccl 12:7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

isaiah 42:5 Thus says God the LORD, Who created the heavens and stretched them out, Who spread out the earth and its offspring, Who gives breath to the people on it And spirit to those who walk in it,

your disgusting view of the robot making and puppet hating God is noted.

beloved57
March 25th, 2015, 08:52 AM
Amen!

The majority of the world of mankind does not Love the Lord Jesus Christ.
They mock, debase, defame, disrespect and blaspheme Him every day.
These are the devil's children, the tares Mat. 13:25, 38, whose end is to be burned Mat. 13:40.

But the world that God gave His Son for John 3:16; 2 Cor. 5:21 is an Elect remnant
of the whole of mankind whom He had Chosen in His Son before time,
to be holy and without blame before Him in Love Eph. 1:4.

~~~~~

Sure you right !

beloved57
March 25th, 2015, 08:53 AM
umm let me see

my wife and i birth a child with the intention of hating the child

stupid thought

umm
my wife and i decide to try and have a child so that

we can take that child out into a barn hang them on a rack and have someone torture them for all eternity. Without ever giving them the dying for all empowerment to receive and believe.

(child abuse in any court of law.)
wait oh i am sorry that is called (love) in the (hyper calvinists court of law) as well as justice. Once again we just need to redefine the word LOVE.


God is love and He loves all His created children.

however some deny and are destined for destruction
matthew 10:33 "But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.

romans 10:12-13 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED

Post 244, did you understand the points I made there even though you may not agree with them ?

Word based mystic
March 25th, 2015, 10:48 AM
yup understood what your incomplete and full scripture ignoring doctrine implies.

john 2:2 He himself is the sacrifice that atones for our sins—and not only our sins but the sins of (all) the world.

john 3:36 And (((anyone))) who ((believes)) in God's Son has eternal life. Anyone who doesn't ((obey)) the Son will ((never)) experience ((eternal)) life but remains under God's angry judgment."

anyone who doesn't (((obey))) conditional action.

1 peter 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God,

For Christ also died for sins once (((for all)), the just for the unjust, so that He might bring (us) to God,
us refers to the above all.
He died for the ((sins)) of all and empowered equipped all to be able to receive or come, or believe or decide, deny.

we preach the gospel to all creation, created men so ((that))
we pray not as if we are puppets and robots.
we worship because He put within us the (potential) to desire to do so. some respond.

What type of god would want his own programmed puppet worship. senseless.

1 peter 3:18 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

yes satan is the father of lies and his seed of lies bears fruit in sinners.
no satan did not father men (earthly life) or their souls. ONLY God did that.

colossians 1:13 shows where all men were before Christ
"has rescued us from the kingdom of darkness and transferred us into the Kingdom of his dear Son,

Who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light

look at all the action scriptures/response scriptures that your doctrine ignores
revelations 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me. 21'He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.…

I see you used some of the scriptures but don't finish them in full context.

i respond strongly to your posts because of how you betray Gods love and His Fathers heart for all he created and creates.
pure insanity that doctrine of God the sadistic torturer that creates only to send to a torturous existence without the option or empowerment to ((repent))

you have not in even a small way comprehended the Love of the (Father).