PDA

View Full Version : The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !



Pages : [1] 2 3 4 5 6

beloved57
November 1st, 2010, 09:21 AM
Another popular Myth in the religious world today, is the Jesus Christ died or gave His Life for everyone in the world without exception, but the problem with that, is there is not one shred of scripture evidence that states that.

The scripture however does say that He died for His Sheep or His Church as per Jn 10:11,15

11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Eph 5:25

25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

His People Isa 53:8

8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. cp Matt 1:21

Now, are all without exception His Sheep ? No

Are all without exception His Church ? No

Are all without exception His People ? No

For surely the seed of the serpent Gen 3:15 cannot be of His Sheep, His Church, or His People.

So why does the religous world proclaim that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception, when they have no scripture proof ? Because it is a Myth.

steko
November 1st, 2010, 10:06 AM
1Jn 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

patricius79
November 1st, 2010, 10:22 AM
Jn 3:17, Rom 11:32, 1 Tim 2:4,6

beloved57
November 1st, 2010, 11:11 AM
1Jn 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Where does this say that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception ?

beloved57
November 1st, 2010, 11:12 AM
Jn 3:17, Rom 11:32, 1 Tim 2:4,6

Where does these say that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception ?

godrulz
November 1st, 2010, 11:32 AM
Where does it say that God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent? The principle is taught without the exact words, duh.

TULIP is tradition vs truth and is not the gospel.

The perfect objective provision intended and sufficient for all men is not subjectively appropriated by all men (we can receive/reject Christ). God's love is unlimited, but we are able to respond or reject due to the nature of reciprocal love relationships.

Nang
November 1st, 2010, 11:54 AM
The perfect objective provision intended and sufficient for all men is not subjectively appropriated by all men (we can receive/reject Christ).

That is because the "objective provision" did not include all men. (John 5:21)

And sinners can only "receive" the benefits of Christ's cross work, when and if the Father draws them to faith in Him. (John 6:44)

That is because the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ was substitutional, according to covenant promises made to an elect people. And that covenant was ratified by the blood of Christ and guaranteed through the person of Christ as surety of the covenant.

IOW's, any soul who has been given the surety of Christ, cannot ever lose their justification or fail to know ultimate salvation. To say otherwise, declares God to be a liar and a cheat.

The Father has promised life to a chosen people; the Son substituted His life and flesh and blood for those very people; the Holy Spirit irresistibly calls and draws those named people to faith in Jesus Christ, and guarantees them everlasting life. (Ephesians 1:13-14)

This is the surety of the Christian faith . . . and all other gospel messages are not only myths and unscriptural, but outright lies from the devil.

Nang

blackbirdking
November 1st, 2010, 09:58 PM
So which of your verses say there are exceptions?

beloved57
November 1st, 2010, 10:22 PM
nang:


The Father has promised life to a chosen people;

Yes, His Elect, Chosen in Christ before the world began titus 1:

1Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

2In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Arthur Brain
November 1st, 2010, 11:34 PM
That is because the "objective provision" did not include all men. (John 5:21)

And sinners can only "receive" the benefits of Christ's cross work, when and if the Father draws them to faith in Him. (John 6:44)

That is because the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ was substitutional, according to covenant promises made to an elect people. And that covenant was ratified by the blood of Christ and guaranteed through the person of Christ as surety of the covenant.

IOW's, any soul who has been given the surety of Christ, cannot ever lose their justification or fail to know ultimate salvation. To say otherwise, declares God to be a liar and a cheat.

The Father has promised life to a chosen people; the Son substituted His life and flesh and blood for those very people; the Holy Spirit irresistibly calls and draws those named people to faith in Jesus Christ, and guarantees them everlasting life. (Ephesians 1:13-14)

This is the surety of the Christian faith . . . and all other gospel messages are not only myths and unscriptural, but outright lies from the devil.

Nang

Um, why would the devil even need to lie if it's only the predestined 'chosen' who are going to be saved anyway? What difference would that make if it's already a 'done deal' and irrevocable? So what, the devil decides to invent a whole gamut of 'heresies' that wouldn't alter anything regardless? :squint:

Um, ya, that makes sense......

What a selfish and limiting doctrine you have. The requisite 'I'm no more deserving' than the 'non elect' just rings sickeningly hollow, not to mention the twisting and lack of logic...

:rain:

blackbirdking
November 2nd, 2010, 12:03 AM
Another popular Myth in the religious world today, is the Jesus Christ died or gave His Life for everyone in the world without exception, but the problem with that, is there is not one shred of scripture evidence that states that.

The scripture however does say that He died for His Sheep or His Church as per Jn 10:

11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

eph 5:

25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

His People Isa 53:

8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. cp Matt 1:21

Now, are all without exception His Sheep ? No

Are all without exception His Church ? No

Are all without exception His People ? No

For surely the seed of the serpent Gen 3:15 cannot be of His Sheep, His Church, or His People.

So why does the religous world proclaim that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception, when they have no scripture proof ? Because it is a Myth.

Do you beleive "by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation"? Romans 5:18

steko
November 2nd, 2010, 12:04 AM
IT ain't no myth!

Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned--every one--to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Dena
November 2nd, 2010, 07:45 AM
I just can't figure out why this idea continues among Christians.

ThePresbyteers
November 2nd, 2010, 08:59 AM
This message is deleted and closed.

blackbirdking
November 2nd, 2010, 09:11 AM
.... Perhaps God put Open Theism in front of you so you would reject Him.

Rejection proves Total Depravity.

So God causes one to reject?

beloved57
November 2nd, 2010, 10:22 AM
IT ain't no myth!

Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned--every one--to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Where do you see in that verse where it says Christ died for all men without exception ?

This passage is speaking about all the Sheep, Gods People.

Isa 53:

8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

The Prophet did not mean the amakelites, the philistines and every human being in the world.

steko
November 2nd, 2010, 11:36 AM
Where do you see in that verse where it says Christ died for all men without exception ?

This passage is speaking about all the Sheep, Gods People.

Isa 53:

8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

The Prophet did not mean the amakelites, the philistines and every human being in the world.

Yes, there is no question that Isaiah is speaking of the Israelites.
But have they all obtained salvation through HIS work of the cross?
I don't think so. Nevertheless it says 'all'.
So it seems to me that provision was made for all, but not all have benefited.

What event obtains your salvation?
Is it an event other than the one spoken of by Isaiah?
Or is it the same one?
Obviously it's the same one or Christ would have to make substitution more than once.
The Church, composed of Jew and Gentile with equality is a mystery in the OT.
Though Isaiah is speaking specifically about his brethren, the atonement is provided for all of Adam.
If Isaiah's words mean only the sins of Israel were laid on him then you and I are yet in our sins.

Heb 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone

Heb 9:12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

1Jn 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.


What does, "the sins of the whole world" mean?

2Co 5:19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them,

ThePresbyteers
November 2nd, 2010, 01:51 PM
This message is deleted and closed.

steko
November 2nd, 2010, 04:11 PM
Isa 42:1 "Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold; My chosen/elect one in whom My soul delights. I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the nations.

The Messiah/Jesus is GOD's 'elect'.

We become part of the election when we turn to GOD and trust in Christ's work upon the cross.

godrulz
November 2nd, 2010, 06:26 PM
Isa 42:1 "Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold; My chosen/elect one in whom My soul delights. I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the nations.

The Messiah/Jesus is GOD's 'elect'.

We become part of the election when we turn to GOD and trust in Christ's work upon the cross.


Election is in Christ, conditional, corporate. Election is not decretal, individual, eternal.

Seydlitz77
November 2nd, 2010, 06:47 PM
I think we are confusing the condition of Salvation with the offer of Salvation.

Salvation is freely offered to everyone without price (Isaiah 55:1 KJV) but the offer of salvation does not save you the offer only gives you the ability to choose salvation and be saved.

God is not partial nor is He a respecter persons. Christ died so that all men could be offered salvation but we know that not all men will be saved, many will exercise their freedom to choose another path.

By giving His Son God has done all He can to save us, from that point on Salvation is completely our responsibility to accept and embrace. To say that even one man did not have the offer of salvation made to them is to call God a partial being who is not worthy of worship.

godrulz
November 2nd, 2010, 07:08 PM
I concur that love is impartial.

2 Nephi 25:23? vs Eph. 2:8-10; Titus 3:5; Jn. 3:16!

http://carm.org/gospel-according-to-mormonism

Minimizing the perfection/holiness of God and maximizing the goodness of man leads to works salvation vs His finished work alone.

Arthur Brain
November 2nd, 2010, 08:41 PM
All mankind reject. Don't you see why God had to step in and save the Elects. If He didn't do that, all will go to hell. Simple truths that a child can understand. The unregenrates reject. God didn't cause them to. God caused the elects to be saved by giving them the "gift of faith". What is there not to understand? All mankind didn't want the gift of faith so God stepped in a gave the Elects the gift of faith. The rest rejects just as God foresaw and predestined. Those that reject are the ones that say all is saved and going to Heaven. They printed their own ticket to Heaven but made it for the wrong theater.

So what's to stop God doing this for everyone then? What marks you or any of the other 'elect' so special as to warrant sparing from eternal misery while your neighbour resides in there for ever? You talk about 'simple truths' as if 'rejection' equates to 'volitional outright rebellion' since birth or some such. Without this 'gift' you'd be just as 'unregenerate' as anyone else even though according to Nang she's no more deserving 'than those predestined to hell'. Furthermore she has no concrete answer as to the fates of the unborn and infants under such a doctrine either. :Plain:

beloved57
November 2nd, 2010, 10:25 PM
steko:


Yes, there is no question that Isaiah is speaking of the Israelites.

Only some of them, the remnant of the election of grace. Isaiah knew there was only a remnant in Israel that belonged to God as His People. Isa 1:

9Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.

Except for that very small remnant, the rest of the jews had no more a relationship with God as the sodomites had.

The rest of the sheep would be the gentile sheep as in Jn 10:16 That Christ died for, but all is still limited to His Sheep !

beloved57
November 2nd, 2010, 10:28 PM
sey:


I think we are confusing the condition of Salvation with the offer of Salvation.

Another Myth, that salvation is offered, sorry, but its given to Gods Sheep.

Jn 10:


27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Jn 17:


2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

beloved57
November 2nd, 2010, 10:30 PM
Isa 42:1 "Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold; My chosen/elect one in whom My soul delights. I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the nations.

The Messiah/Jesus is GOD's 'elect'.

We become part of the election when we turn to GOD and trust in Christ's work upon the cross.

Jesus election is the election of His body as well !

beloved57
November 2nd, 2010, 10:32 PM
steko:



Heb 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone

Heb 9:12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

1Jn 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.


What does, "the sins of the whole world" mean?

2Co 5:19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them,

None of these verses states that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception, in fact, they all refer to His Sheep.

Nick M
November 2nd, 2010, 10:37 PM
I think we are confusing the condition of Salvation with the offer of Salvation.

Salvation is freely offered to everyone without price (Isaiah 55:1 KJV) but the offer of salvation does not save you the offer only gives you the ability to choose salvation and be saved.

God is not partial nor is He a respecter persons. Christ died so that all men could be offered salvation but we know that not all men will be saved, many will exercise their freedom to choose another path.

By giving His Son God has done all He can to save us, from that point on Salvation is completely our responsibility to accept and embrace. To say that even one man did not have the offer of salvation made to them is to call God a partial being who is not worthy of worship.

Spot on correct. Well put. And I will never get it. How hard is it to stand up and say I am guilty, and need a savior? I will never get it.

beloved57
November 2nd, 2010, 11:14 PM
Matt 24:24

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

The False Christs here means, the different denominations saying we serve and witness of the True Christ. Also the false Christ, is that Christ that is presented that He loved of all of humanity, and died for all of humanity without exception, to give them a chance at getting saved.

Thats a False Christ. If anyone believes that lie, that Christ died for everyones sins in the world without exception, you have been deceived, and unless God gives you repentance, you are on your way to hell, forever !

steko
November 2nd, 2010, 11:31 PM
steko:




None of these verses states that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception, in fact, they all refer to His Sheep.

If Jesus only died for the lost sheep of Israel, then we are yet in our sins and have no hope.

godrulz
November 3rd, 2010, 12:30 AM
So what's to stop God doing this for everyone then? What marks you or any of the other 'elect' so special as to warrant sparing from eternal misery while your neighbour resides in there for ever? You talk about 'simple truths' as if 'rejection' equates to 'volitional outright rebellion' since birth or some such. Without this 'gift' you'd be just as 'unregenerate' as anyone else even though according to Nang she's no more deserving 'than those predestined to hell'. Furthermore she has no concrete answer as to the fates of the unborn and infants under such a doctrine either. :Plain:

Rev. 1:17-18; Jn. 3:16 vs Jn. 3:36

The issue is receiving or rejecting the cure for sin and death. It is not about partiality or specialness. Receiving a free gift is not earning nor providing nor initiating it. Rejecting a free gift leaves the individual culpable, not the Giver. There is no salvation apart from Christ. Faith vs unbelief is a strong dualism in John. These conditions are the manward issue, while grace and Christ are the Godward issue.

Arthur Brain
November 3rd, 2010, 12:49 AM
Rev. 1:17-18; Jn. 3:16 vs Jn. 3:36

The issue is receiving or rejecting the cure for sin and death. It is not about partiality or specialness. Receiving a free gift is not earning nor providing nor initiating it. Rejecting a free gift leaves the individual culpable, not the Giver. There is no salvation apart from Christ. Faith vs unbelief is a strong dualism in John. These conditions are the manward issue, while grace and Christ are the Godward issue.

Well as you know I was addressing this towards Calvinists specifically so my argument was not with you. However, a 'free gift' to avoid eternal suffering after having life thrust upon oneself where such parameters are set does not exactly amount to much of a gift. That's like chucking a non swimmer a life raft after throwing them into the water to begin with. :Plain:

godrulz
November 3rd, 2010, 12:52 AM
Well as you know I was addressing this towards Calvinists specifically so my argument was not with you. However, a 'free gift' to avoid eternal suffering after having life thrust upon oneself where such parameters are set does not exactly amount to much of a gift. That's like chucking a non swimmer a life raft after throwing them into the water to begin with. :Plain:

Man got himself into the mess (Fall), and God provides the perfect remedy for it. Men curse God despite His mercy. They cannot be saved while rejecting His love. Issues of free will, justice, mercy, love, relationship, holiness, probation (now vs after death), etc. make your view untenable (not to mention the clear biblical teaching that contradicts it).

Arthur Brain
November 3rd, 2010, 12:54 AM
Spot on correct. Well put. And I will never get it. How hard is it to stand up and say I am guilty, and need a savior? I will never get it.

Get what? That people have doubts? You think everyone who hasn't seen as 'clearly' as you do so because they just want to rebel against God and go to eternal suffering? I doubt I'll ever 'get' such a dumb and basic assessment of the complexities of human nature so there you go I suppose...

:Plain:

Arthur Brain
November 3rd, 2010, 01:14 AM
Man got himself into the mess (Fall), and God provides the perfect remedy for it. Men curse God despite His mercy. They cannot be saved while rejecting His love. Issues of free will, justice, mercy, love, relationship, holiness, probation (now vs after death), etc. make your view untenable (not to mention the clear biblical teaching that contradicts it).

What do you mean 'man' got himself into the mess? God could have avoided any such consequence by not creating such an obviously flawed creature to begin with GR. Again, it's the 'life raft' scenario. Before the outset of creation God creates man knowing he'll fall and stumble, sets the parameters where any 'justice' can only take place after creation, gives them the 'ability' to suffer pain for an eternity and to 'appease' this 'justice' by clinging onto the raft after giving them the 'gift' of life in the first place. :Plain:

You can shout 'untenable' as you will GR. I've addressed your standard objections already in the other thread.

godrulz
November 3rd, 2010, 03:07 AM
What do you mean 'man' got himself into the mess? God could have avoided any such consequence by not creating such an obviously flawed creature to begin with GR. Again, it's the 'life raft' scenario. Before the outset of creation God creates man knowing he'll fall and stumble, sets the parameters where any 'justice' can only take place after creation, gives them the 'ability' to suffer pain for an eternity and to 'appease' this 'justice' by clinging onto the raft after giving them the 'gift' of life in the first place. :Plain:

You can shout 'untenable' as you will GR. I've addressed your standard objections already in the other thread.

Lucifer and Adam were not flawed because they had free moral agency. The possibility of great love and good necessitates the equal possibility (vs certainty) of great evil. The alternative is to not create or to create robots. The God who risks (John Sanders, Open Theist) is a truer model of providence than determinism/Calvinism.

It is a wrong assumption to think that God intended, desired, foreknew as a certainty the Fall. He had a contingent plan of redemption, but the Fall was not a necessity.

You make emotional arguments, but lack depth of understanding of the issues a Moral Governor faced in created non-robots.

Arthur Brain
November 3rd, 2010, 03:29 AM
Lucifer and Adam were not flawed because they had free moral agency. The possibility of great love and good necessitates the equal possibility (vs certainty) of great evil. The alternative is to not create or to create robots. The God who risks (John Sanders, Open Theist) is a truer model of providence than determinism/Calvinism.

It is a wrong assumption to think that God intended, desired, foreknew as a certainty the Fall. He had a contingent plan of redemption, but the Fall was not a necessity.

You make emotional arguments, but lack depth of understanding of the issues a Moral Governor faced in created non-robots.

Oh c'mon GR. Are you seriously telling me that God hadn't foresaw the weakness of man and any subsequent 'falling'? There's a myriad verses in the bible that speak of God's plans from the outset of creation and His knowledge in such regard and the reconciliation of said creation.

You're simply trying to undermine any counter position as 'emotional' without even attempting to address the logic. You are not the 'moral governor' and your 'lacking depth of understanding' rubbish is as patronising as it's irrelevant. As ironic as it stands you do the best impression of a programmed robot as anyone on this forum.

Answer this. If I build a swimming pool, throw my kid in there and after a couple of minutes throw him a life raft when he's struggling to stay afloat am I giving him a gift? Can you actually give an honest answer to this without prevarication and sound bites?

blackbirdking
November 3rd, 2010, 10:01 AM
All mankind reject. Don't you see why God had to step in and save the Elects. If He didn't do that, all will go to hell. Simple truths that a child can understand. The unregenrates reject. God didn't cause them to. God caused the elects to be saved by giving them the "gift of faith". What is there not to understand? All mankind didn't want the gift of faith so God stepped in a gave the Elects the gift of faith. The rest rejects just as God foresaw and predestined. Those that reject are the ones that say all is saved and going to Heaven. They printed their own ticket to Heaven but made it for the wrong theater.

You said, "Perhaps God put Open Theism in front of you so you would reject Him." I thought you were serious when you said that to GR. Were you? Do you think God causes people to reject?

blackbirdking
November 3rd, 2010, 10:22 AM
Oh c'mon GR. Are you seriously telling me that God hadn't foresaw the weakness of man and any subsequent 'falling'? There's a myriad verses in the bible that speak of God's plans from the outset of creation and His knowledge in such regard and the reconciliation of said creation.

Answer this. If I build a swimming pool, throw my kid in there and after a couple of minutes throw him a life raft when he's struggling to stay afloat am I giving him a gift? Can you actually give an honest answer to this without prevarication and sound bites?

If I build a swimming pool for the good of the family and my son falls in: would it be a gift if then I threw him a life raft? I would love to hear your Biblical argument using "a myriad verses" that God knew Adam would fall.

beloved57
November 3rd, 2010, 10:37 AM
If Jesus only died for the lost sheep of Israel, then we are yet in our sins and have no hope.

Not if one is of the Lost Sheep of Israel. Paul declares that God hath rasied up unto Israel a Saviour Acts 13:23

23Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

He as Saviour giveth Israel repentace and forgiveness of sins

Acts 5:31

31Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Israel means His Chosen People, Jew or Gentile.

godrulz
November 3rd, 2010, 11:16 AM
Modal logic correctly distinguishes actual, certain, possible, probable, necessary, etc. God knew of the possibility and probability of the Fall, but His great grief after the Fall shows that He did not expect it given the perfect and reasonable conditions given to innocent men. The Fall was possible, not necessary/inevitable. It was certainly likely. God knows reality as it is. Other verses also show God expecting good things from Israel, then being disappointed when they do bad things.

The future is inherently partially open vs closed, by God's sovereign choice.

Nang
November 3rd, 2010, 04:04 PM
So what's to stop God doing this for everyone then?

It is necessary that God reveal His holy justice and make His power known amongst men. See Romans 9:17-18






What marks you or any of the other 'elect' so special as to warrant sparing from eternal misery while your neighbour resides in there for ever?

There is nothing special about the chosen people of God, other than they have found favor with God. (e.g. Genesis 6:8) There are no scriptural reasons revealing why God choses some and judges others (Noah and his family found grace, while the rest of the human population perished in the flood); that decision resides within His sovereignty and good purposes, alone.



You talk about 'simple truths' as if 'rejection' equates to 'volitional outright rebellion' since birth or some such. Without this 'gift' you'd be just as 'unregenerate' as anyone else even though according to Nang she's no more deserving 'than those predestined to hell'. Furthermore she has no concrete answer as to the fates of the unborn and infants under such a doctrine either. :Plain:

The fate of infants is determined according to divine Unconditional Election, just like the fate of adults. Babies are in need of God's grace, too, and those chosen by God in Christ before the foundation of the world, will receive His saving mercies and be saved in Jesus Christ.

What you are arguing for, is Universalism. You are saying that God is not good unless He tries to save all persons and treats all persons equally. This is part of the western (democratic) mindset, that has little knowledge of the makeup of sovereign rulers . . . who are not obligated to show any favors to their subjects, at all.

Earthly sovereigns are all sinners and most are tyrants, but Sovereign God is holy, loving, and good.

When investigating the bible's teachings about Unconditional Election, one must exercise faith in the goodness and wisdom of God. One must be willing to accept that God has the sovereign power and right to show favor and grace, to whom He wills (Romans 9:15-16). And one must, by faith, trust that God has chosen His people wisely and for good purposes.

Accepting Divine Election as truth is a matter of faith, which of course, comes only by the grace of God to begin with. So it is no surprise that some sinners testify to God's electing grace in faith, and most others reject the doctrine. For those others have not been gifted with the faith necessary to comprehend or believe the promises of God.

Nang

Nang
November 3rd, 2010, 04:05 PM
The future is inherently partially open vs closed, by God's sovereign choice.

Illogical.

Nang
November 3rd, 2010, 04:09 PM
If I build a swimming pool for the good of the family and my son falls in: would it be a gift if then I threw him a life raft? I would love to hear your Biblical argument using "a myriad verses" that God knew Adam would fall.

God decreed that Adam would fall, and decreed that God the Son would be the "Lamb of God," before the foundation of the world. (Rev. 13:8; I Peter 1:20)

"If anyone has an ear, let him hear." Revelation 13:9

godrulz
November 3rd, 2010, 06:24 PM
Illogical.

Fatalism, determinism, fixed future is illogical. It is common sense and biblical that the potential future is becoming the fixed past through the actual present (presentism vs eternalism; A vs B theory of time).

It is illogical to you because you are a determinist and reject self-evident free will. It is logical to thinking people who are not biased by a false system.

godrulz
November 3rd, 2010, 06:26 PM
God decreed that Adam would fall, and decreed that God the Son would be the "Lamb of God," before the foundation of the world. (Rev. 13:8; I Peter 1:20)

"If anyone has an ear, let him hear." Revelation 13:9

God did not decree the Fall. This is contrary to His intentions, purposes, will, desires. This is why He was grieved to the core when it happened. Mormons say that it was decreed and necessary. You are in bad company.

The plan of redemption was a contingency that was implemented after vs before the Fall. It was decreed from eternity past, but only implemented in Gen. 3 (and actualized in the first century). The potential plan became certain when the Fall was actual, not before. Decretal views are philosophical, Calvinistic, not biblical (Calvinists also differ on the order of decrees...pure speculation since it is not biblical).

Nang
November 3rd, 2010, 06:53 PM
God did not decree the Fall. This is contrary to His intentions, purposes, will, desires.

All of God's intentions, purposes, will, and desires are being achieved despite the fall of Adam.





The plan of redemption was a contingency that was implemented after vs before the Fall. It was decreed from eternity past, but only implemented in Gen. 3

Illogical.

godrulz
November 3rd, 2010, 07:11 PM
All of God's intentions, purposes, will, and desires are being achieved despite the fall of Adam.






Illogical.

There is a big difference between desiring, causing, intending evil or the Fall and responding to it with a perfect plan of redemption, restoration, mitigation, etc.

Your hang up to make everything God's will leads to impugnment of His character and ways.

As a paramedic or a patient, I do not cause illness and injury in order to bring good out of it. I respond to the contingency that was not intentional, meritorious, desired and mitigate it to bring good out of bad. Causing or desiring bad to show off my skills is not loving, wise, good, right.

flintstoned
November 3rd, 2010, 07:44 PM
God decreed that Adam would fall, and decreed that God the Son would be the "Lamb of God," before the foundation of the world. (Rev. 13:8; I Peter 1:20)

"If anyone has an ear, let him hear." Revelation 13:9

So why then did god feel the need to kill off the world's population(except for Noah and his family)? What purpose did THAT serve?

steko
November 3rd, 2010, 07:45 PM
Not if one is of the Lost Sheep of Israel. Paul declares that God hath rasied up unto Israel a Saviour acts 13:

23Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

He as Saviour giveth Israel repentace and forgiveness of sins

Acts 5:

31Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Israel means His Chosen People, Jew or Gentile.

Nope. Israel always means bloodline Israel and Gentile always means the rest of the people in the world.

The elect in Mt.24 means bloodline, believing Israel, not the Jew/gentile church.

godrulz
November 3rd, 2010, 08:17 PM
So why then did god feel the need to kill off the world's population(except for Noah and his family)? What purpose did THAT serve?

Justice and the prevention of a cancer that would have destroyed God's people and humanity.

If a serial killer is shooting up a mall, it would be unloving and unwise for the police not to terminate him.

Nang
November 3rd, 2010, 09:48 PM
There is a big difference between desiring, causing, intending evil or the Fall and responding to it with a perfect plan of redemption, restoration, mitigation, etc.

What I say!

God did not "respond" to the fall with a plan of redemption, but rather decreed the fall to display and demonstrate the redemptive grace and such qualities found only in the Son of God; Jesus Christ.




As a paramedic or a patient, I do not cause illness and injury in order to bring good out of it. I respond to the contingency that was not intentional, meritorious, desired and mitigate it to bring good out of bad. Causing or desiring bad to show off my skills is not loving, wise, good, right.

Poor analogy, in that you are not the creator of any you deal with.

The "victims" whom you treat, are not the original works of your hands, and so your "works of mercy" cannot possibly or legitimately be compared to those of ALMIGHTY GOD!

Nang

Nick M
November 3rd, 2010, 10:13 PM
Get what? That people have doubts?

There are no doubts, only rebellion.

godrulz
November 3rd, 2010, 10:22 PM
What I say!

God did not "respond" to the fall with a plan of redemption, but rather decreed the fall to display and demonstrate the redemptive grace and such qualities found only in the Son of God; Jesus Christ.





Poor analogy, in that you are not the creator of any you deal with.

The "victims" whom you treat, are not the original works of your hands, and so your "works of mercy" cannot possibly or legitimately be compared to those of ALMIGHTY GOD!

Nang


God does not decree sin, evil, suffering. That would be Satan, not God. It is contrary to God's nature to do this. If he decreed it, why was he so grieved by it and why did it cost the cross? God is not the author of sin, sickness, suffering, evil, destruction, etc. The consequences are the result of man's free will. Likewise, God created Lucifer, not Satan. God did not make Judas a puppet to fulfill a plan.

God demonstrates grace and redemption despite the Fall and because of it. His grace and love are still revealed and true even if Hitler does not kill millions (another thing contrary to God's will, not decreed by it).

Calvinism is odious, not glorious. You are twisting facts to support your flawed ideas. There are better, more biblical, explanations to these things.:noid:

steko
November 3rd, 2010, 10:51 PM
No myth!

1Ti 4:10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.


By posting this scripture, I am not saying that all men will be saved, only that provision is made for all.

Arthur Brain
November 4th, 2010, 12:00 AM
There are no doubts, only rebellion.

Well that's about as reasoned and thought out a response as I would expect from you. Cos yeah Nick, everyone who doesn't believe the same as yourself are deliberately 'shaking their fists' and 'choosing' to go to eternal suffering. :hammer: You really have no clue whatsoever...

:rain:

Arthur Brain
November 4th, 2010, 12:03 AM
No myth!

1Ti 4:10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.


By posting this scripture, I am not saying that all men will be saved, only that provision is made for all.

That's ok. You don't need to say it. The verse says it for you. :)

Arthur Brain
November 4th, 2010, 12:06 AM
What I say!

God did not "respond" to the fall with a plan of redemption, but rather decreed the fall to display and demonstrate the redemptive grace and such qualities found only in the Son of God; Jesus Christ.





Poor analogy, in that you are not the creator of any you deal with.

The "victims" whom you treat, are not the original works of your hands, and so your "works of mercy" cannot possibly or legitimately be compared to those of ALMIGHTY GOD!

Nang

So basically God creates people predestined to be the elect and others fitted for destruction in order to display His justice to the elect? Am I getting the basic gist of this correct?

:Plain:

horiturk
November 4th, 2010, 01:27 AM
i'll say it again,i'm only interested in what jesus said.....everyone else making claims in the bible is speculation. if he gave private guru initiatic instructions to the disciples there would have been more recorded.

beloved57
November 4th, 2010, 03:38 AM
steko:


Nope. Israel always means bloodline Israel

No it does not. Rom 9:6


6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel[Spiritual], which are of Israel[bloodline]:

beloved57
November 4th, 2010, 03:39 AM
No myth!

1Ti 4:10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.


By posting this scripture, I am not saying that all men will be saved, only that provision is made for all.

God is not the Saviour of a man who is not saved.

ThePresbyteers
November 4th, 2010, 09:32 AM
This message is deleted and closed.

ThePresbyteers
November 4th, 2010, 09:35 AM
This message is deleted and closed.

steko
November 4th, 2010, 09:46 AM
steko:



No it does not. rom 9:


6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel[Spiritual], which are of Israel[bloodline]:

In RO 9, Paul is simply making the distinction between unbelieving
Sons of Israel and a believing remnant of the Sons of Israel. They are still all bloodline Israel. Those of bloodline Israel who have believed GOD are HIS people and those of the Gentiles who believe GOD become HIS people also. But they are still called from Israel and from non-Israel.
Rom 9:24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.


Rom 9:27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL BE LIKE THE SAND OF THE SEA, IT IS THE REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED;

Paul maintains the distinction between those who are Gentiles and and those who are of Israel, who are always the bloodline Sons of Israel. Nowhere does Paul call Gentiles Israel or Israel Gentiles, nor do the Gentiles(nations-Grk.ethnos-Heb.goyim) ever become Israel. The Gentiles become part of 'the household of faith' by being added to the Church, but the Church is not Israel. The distinction is never blurred. "We both" implies two distinct parties.
Eph 2:18 for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father.
Eph 2:19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household

Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;
Rom 9:31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.

When one comes to be disillusioned from the spell of 'Replacement Theology'(meaning the Jew/Gentile church replaces National Israel) then the Scriptures become much more easily understood. Things fall into their proper place, throughout the whole Bible.

I admonish you to reconsider your approach to scripture.

steko
November 4th, 2010, 10:05 AM
God is not the Saviour of a man who is not saved.

Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God

2Co 5:19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself

kosmos-the world and its' inhabitants

Jesus is the potential Saviour of all people.

Nang
November 4th, 2010, 11:17 AM
Jesus is the potential Saviour of all people.

Jesus is not a "potential" anything!

The gospel is not the good news of a possiblity provided by God.

The gospel is the reality, certainty, and surety that Jesus Christ died and resurrected in the flesh to reconcile His people with God.

God made a covenant to do this, performed the covenant, and guarantees the results.

Nang

Nang
November 4th, 2010, 11:19 AM
So basically God creates people predestined to be the elect and others fitted for destruction in order to display His justice to the elect? Am I getting the basic gist of this correct?

:Plain:

This is a sarcastic and unbelieving interpretation of God's word. It reeks of rebellion against sovereign God. It exhibits no faith in the wisdom and goodness of God.

You are in spiritual trouble, Arthur . . .

Nang

Arthur Brain
November 4th, 2010, 11:31 AM
This is a sarcastic and unbelieving interpretation of God's word. It reeks of rebellion against sovereign God. It exhibits no faith in the wisdom and goodness of God.

You are in spiritual trouble, Arthur . . .

Nang

What exactly was wrong with it from a basic perspective? That is the gist of what you're saying isn't it?

Lets face it, according to you anyone who isn't part of the elect is in 'spiritual trouble' and no-one gets any say in that anyway...

Nang
November 4th, 2010, 11:40 AM
What exactly was wrong with it from a basic perspective?

Your "basic perspective" is what I described. Unbelieving, sarcastic, and rebellious.




That is the gist of what you're saying isn't it?

Read Romans 9:6-26 to see what God is saying . . .


Lets face it, according to you anyone who isn't part of the elect is in 'spiritual trouble' and no-one gets any say in that anyway...

This is true, but it is no excuse.

Read Romans 1:18-25

Arthur Brain
November 4th, 2010, 11:51 AM
Your "basic perspective" is what I described. Unbelieving, sarcastic, and rebellious.

Was my basic assessment correct or not? What's the point in overcomplicating matters if the gist of what I stated is accurate? If it was then I don't believe it to be true. I think Calvinist theology is deeply flawed and incorrect.



Read Romans 9:6-26 to see what God is saying . . .

I was asking you...


This is true, but it is no excuse.

Read Romans 1:18-25

What difference does it make? If you've either been predestined to hell or Heaven then it's out of your control and at the whim of God.

Nang
November 4th, 2010, 12:04 PM
Was my basic assessment correct or not? What's the point in overcomplicating matters if the gist of what I stated is accurate?

One cannot establish an accurate basic perspective according to an unbelieving "gist."

Your assessment is way off base . . .



What difference does it make? If you've either been predestined to hell or Heaven then it's out of your control and at the whim of God.

But sovereign predestination is not the sum total of all that Holy Scripture reveals. The bible also teaches that Christians are commissioned to proclaim the good news of Jesus Christ.

That is what my witness and testimony is, here on TOL. I proclaim what I believe. I proclaim the words of God. I proclaim both the Law of God and the Grace of God and leave any results from my witness to the will of God.

I am commissioned by my Lord to do so, for this is His very means of calling sinners to Himself. Not just me, but it is the testimony of any Christian preaching the faithful gospel message (Holy Scripture) that contains the power to save.

So it is important that I do what I am doing, even though I have no idea who, if any, will be given ears to hear God's message. That is not up to me. John 5:21

Nang

godrulz
November 4th, 2010, 12:31 PM
God is not the Saviour of a man who is not saved.

He is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. His love and gift is not limited, but it must be received. He is the Savior of all who believe. Not all believe, something that is not God's fault or decree (Jn. 1; Lk. 7:30; Matthew 23:37; I Tim. 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9; Jn. 3:16 unregenerate world, not elite elect).

godrulz
November 4th, 2010, 12:32 PM
Jesus is not a "potential" anything!

The gospel is not the good news of a possiblity provided by God.

The gospel is the reality, certainty, and surety that Jesus Christ died and resurrected in the flesh to reconcile His people with God.

God made a covenant to do this, performed the covenant, and guarantees the results.

Nang


Your view limits the love (impartial) and power of God/cross. By denying that man is a factor (free will), you are forced to a deductive error not supported by biblical principles/texts in context. Hyper-sovereignty/decretal views are not biblical and lead to problems.

Nang
November 4th, 2010, 01:15 PM
Not all believe, something that is not God's fault or decree (Jn. 1; Lk. 7:30; Matthew 23:37; I Tim. 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9; Jn. 3:16 unregenerate world, not elite elect).

You are proof-texting an inaccurate assertion.

Failure to include the teaching of Isaiah 6:9-10, perverts your message.

God has determined and controls who will believe and who will not. Read Isaiah 6:9-10; 43:7-13 and the teachings of this truth in the N.T. by Jesus, John, and Paul:

Matthew 13:13-17, Mark 4:11-12, Luke 8:10, John 12:37-41,
Acts 28:24-28, Romans 11:7-8, II Corinthians 4:3-4

We can come to truth, only if and when we read Holy Scripture in its entirety.

Nang

blackbirdking
November 4th, 2010, 02:32 PM
God decreed that Adam would fall, and decreed that God the Son would be the "Lamb of God," before the foundation of the world. (Rev. 13:8; I Peter 1:20)

"If anyone has an ear, let him hear." Revelation 13:9

You're making an assumption based on a presupposed idea.

You are assuming "before the foundation of the world" means before the creation of the universe, Adam,Eve, etc. Before you assume you need to ask some questions: Does what I assume, agree with all of scripture, and the known character of God as scripture portrays it? Does scripture allow for any interpretation other than what I believe?

If you compare the original languange for "foundation of the world" in all the other places "foundation of the world" is used you will find something very interesting. See Matthew 13:35; If you have a cross reference it takes you to Psalm 78:2; When you see what "foundation of the world" means it is completely different from what you're saying. It is referring to times of old, history, particularly the "Old Testament" times. Study it. If you have an open mind to truth you don't need to be afraid of it.

Does either way we interpret it agree completely with scripture and the revealed character of God? We must answer in the negative.

Nowhere does the character of God lend itself in any way to the notion that God created Adam knowing that Adam would bring a curse on all of creation and most of Adam's race would irrivocably be damned by God's decree; ie. predestination to hell. Neither does scripture teach that.

On the other hand, the revealed character of God ( justice, mercy, and faith) does agree with the concept that Adam should recieve the consequence of his action which he committed in breaking the known law of God. It also agrees with all of scripture. And, I would add, all Biblical principals.

blackbirdking
November 4th, 2010, 02:48 PM
God "PUT"...



I would open with depiction of advertising where, say, sugary soft drinks are put before us. We drink 'em not because the ad took over our mind, but because the ad appealed to our nature ...which loves sugary drinks.

Then go into Divine Providence where the Lord arranges circumstances. As the Supreme Being, God knows all our predilections. It's an easy thing for Him to juggle events in our lives so that we behave how He wants ...and how we want !

So all our behavior is a result of God calling the shots? Good and bad? If so, why doesn't God give faith to everybody and get everybody to be one of the elect? I would be glad to see scripture to make you're point.

Nang
November 4th, 2010, 03:43 PM
You are assuming "before the foundation of the world" means before the creation of the universe, Adam,Eve, etc.

The Greek word for "foundation," as used in the Scripture references I gave, is "katabole" which denotes a "deposition," or "founding," or figuratively, a "conception." (Nothing about the word denotes the old days of history.)

Psalm 78:2 does not use similar language at all but is exemplary of teaching in parables, which is the subject of Matthew 13:35 and why the cross reference is made to the psalm.

But thanks for the lecture, anyway. :rolleyes:

Nang

patricius79
November 4th, 2010, 04:41 PM
1 Jn 2:2, Rom 11:32, 1 Tim 2:1,4,6

flintstoned
November 4th, 2010, 05:39 PM
So all our behavior is a result of God calling the shots? Good and bad? If so, why doesn't God give faith to everybody and get everybody to be one of the elect? I would be glad to see scripture to make you're point.

Even better, why doesn't god make himself known to all so there would be no doubts of his existence. Just because he exists, doesn't mean you are forced to worship him. It would not take away my free will just to know that he existed. I still would have had the choice on whether or not to have faith (trust) in him and to follow him. If god really wanted ALL to be save, why not at least give everyone the same chance by making himself known to all, so there would be no doubts of his existence?

steko
November 4th, 2010, 05:56 PM
Even better, why doesn't god make himself known to all so there would be no doubts of his existence. Just because he exists, doesn't mean you are forced to worship him. It would not take away my free will just to know that he existed. I still would have had the choice on whether or not to have faith (trust) in him and to follow him. If god really wanted ALL to be save, why not at least give everyone the same chance by making himself known to all, so there would be no doubts of his existence?

In Ro. 1, Paul says that there is sufficient evidence for all men to know that GOD exists, but that we suppress that truth because it leads to accountability.
If anybody really wants to know, it can be known.

On the other hand GOD has left the fact of HIS existence somewhat obscure, to allow us to choose to look for HIM. HIS overwhelming presence would eliminate our choosing to cease our rebellion freely. However, there will come a time when HIS presence will be overwhemingly plain. As C.S. Lewis remarked, that will be a time when there will be no point in saying, "I now choose to willingly bow before GOD", when it is impossible to stand up. Our time of choosing is now!

Nang
November 4th, 2010, 07:58 PM
In Ro. 1, Paul says that there is sufficient evidence for all men to know that GOD exists, but that we suppress that truth because it leads to accountability.
If anybody really wants to know, it can be known.

On the other hand GOD has left the fact of HIS existence somewhat obscure, to allow us to choose to look for HIM. HIS overwhelming presence would eliminate our choosing to cease our rebellion freely. However, there will come a time when HIS presence will be overwhemingly plain. As C.S. Lewis remarked, that will be a time when there will be no point in saying, "I now choose to willingly bow before GOD", when it is impossible to stand up. Our time of choosing is now!

Sinners are unable and unwilling to "choose" to believe, because they are held in bondage to sin, death, and the devil.

Until that plain fact is acknowledged, the matter of salvation by grace will never be appreciated or understood.

Man has a will, but his will is not free (from sin, death, or the devil) to seek or please God.

Only by the will and grace of God, that powerfully changes the very nature ("heart") of sinners, and rescues them from their bondage, is salvation evidenced in this sorry world.

Nang

Arthur Brain
November 4th, 2010, 08:30 PM
All of God's intentions, purposes, will, and desires are being achieved despite the fall of Adam.






Illogical.

What do you mean 'despite'? So the fall occurred contrary to God's Will?

Except:


Originally Posted by Nang
God decreed that Adam would fall

You're contradicting yourself.

Arthur Brain
November 4th, 2010, 08:39 PM
If I build a swimming pool for the good of the family and my son falls in: would it be a gift if then I threw him a life raft? I would love to hear your Biblical argument using "a myriad verses" that God knew Adam would fall.

Actually no. It would be a responsible act of parenting to ensure your child's safety and anything that didn't attempt to secure such would amount to negligence. Before I supply verses are you arguing that God didn't know that Adam would err?

Arthur Brain
November 4th, 2010, 08:46 PM
One cannot establish an accurate basic perspective according to an unbelieving "gist."

Your assessment is way off base . . .

If it's 'way off base' then explain why. That should not be difficult and if you don't then you're prevaricating.



But sovereign predestination is not the sum total of all that Holy Scripture reveals. The bible also teaches that Christians are commissioned to proclaim the good news of Jesus Christ.

That is what my witness and testimony is, here on TOL. I proclaim what I believe. I proclaim the words of God. I proclaim both the Law of God and the Grace of God and leave any results from my witness to the will of God.

I am commissioned by my Lord to do so, for this is His very means of calling sinners to Himself. Not just me, but it is the testimony of any Christian preaching the faithful gospel message (Holy Scripture) that contains the power to save.

So it is important that I do what I am doing, even though I have no idea who, if any, will be given ears to hear God's message. That is not up to me. John 5:21

Nang

Well if you're correct Nang, then it's already a done deal and whatever you do has already been preordained along with everything else. So it is kinda moot whether you witness or not.

godrulz
November 4th, 2010, 08:50 PM
Even better, why doesn't god make himself known to all so there would be no doubts of his existence. Just because he exists, doesn't mean you are forced to worship him. It would not take away my free will just to know that he existed. I still would have had the choice on whether or not to have faith (trust) in him and to follow him. If god really wanted ALL to be save, why not at least give everyone the same chance by making himself known to all, so there would be no doubts of his existence?

Romans 1-3 All men are without excuse and universally condemned because God has made Himself plain and known.

"He is there and He is not silent" -Francis Schaeffer

godrulz
November 4th, 2010, 08:52 PM
Sinners are unable and unwilling to "choose" to believe, because they are held in bondage to sin, death, and the devil.

Until that plain fact is acknowledged, the matter of salvation by grace will never be appreciated or understood.

Man has a will, but his will is not free (from sin, death, or the devil) to seek or please God.

Only by the will and grace of God, that powerfully changes the very nature ("heart") of sinners, and rescues them from their bondage, is salvation evidenced in this sorry world.

Nang

Total depravity is not total inability.

God commands men everywhere to repent and believe. He does not command what is impossible.

We do need the convincing, conviction, influence of the Spirit, but salvation is relational, not causative, passive, coercive. It is based on love, not force.

TULIP is wilted.:p

Nang
November 4th, 2010, 08:53 PM
What do you mean 'despite'? So the fall occurred contrary to God's Will?

Sin and unbelief is contrary to the will of God, but God's purposes are to bring good out of evil. Genesis 50:20; Romans 8:28

Nang
November 4th, 2010, 08:58 PM
If it's 'way off base' then explain why.

Well you summarize a conclusion that does not accord with what Scripture teaches. You claim God supposedly wills to show His "justice to the elect." Nowhere does Scripture teach that.



Well if you're correct Nang, then it's already a done deal and whatever you do has already been preordained along with everything else. So it is kinda moot whether you witness or not.

You speak of fatalism. I speak of divine means that save sinners.

Men hearing the word of the gospel is the power that saves sinners, and God has ordained the Gospel message be proclaimed by those who already have been regenerated to new spiritual life by His grace.

Arthur Brain
November 4th, 2010, 09:08 PM
Sin and unbelief is contrary to the will of God, but God's purposes are to bring good out of evil. Genesis 50:20; Romans 8:28

Then the Sovereign Will of God is either thwarted by man or decreed by God. You can't say 'despite' the fall if it's decreed by God to occur else it's contradiction.

Nang
November 4th, 2010, 09:12 PM
Total depravity is not total inability.

Yes it is. Souls dead in trespasses and sin have innate ability to live.


God commands men everywhere to repent and believe. He does not command what is impossible.

Indeed God commands all men to believe and repent, which is possible by His grace and the power of His Holy Spirit, who gives new spiritual minds, hearts, and wills to sinners; enabling them to believe and repent.

What is impossible with man, is made possible through faith in God.


We do need the convincing, conviction, influence of the Spirit, but salvation is relational,

Man can not initiate a relationship with God, because God has cursed him with enmity and separated His holiness from man.

Only God can choose to reconcile man with Himself and create a new, spiritual relationship . . . and that was the purpose and accomplishment of the incarnation of Jesus Christ.

A Mediator between sinful man and Holy God was necessary, and Jesus Christ alone fulfilled that role.

Open Theists who preach "loving relationship" with God, fail when they base such relationship to be contingent upon the free will and choices of sinners.

It is only the will and choosing of Jesus Christ, whereby sinners are brought into new spiritual relationship with the Father. John 5:21

It is the choice of God alone who will be adopted and legally named as His children and heirs.



TULIP is wilted.:p

TULIP thrives and has been healthy for about 500 years.

It is your recent little sprouting of Open Theism that fails to flourish.

Nang

Arthur Brain
November 4th, 2010, 09:17 PM
Well you summarize a conclusion that does not accord with what Scripture teaches. You claim God supposedly wills to show His "justice to the elect." Nowhere does Scripture teach that.

Ok then. Who is this 'justice' *shown to*? The unregenerate? Those that can't 'see' because of a condition passed down through Adam?



You speak of fatalism. I speak of divine means that save sinners.

Men hearing the word of the gospel is the power that saves sinners, and God has ordained the Gospel message be proclaimed by those who already have been regenerated to new spiritual life by His grace.

Well, that's pretty much what your doctrine amounts to Nang. Whether you witness or not it's only a preordained elect that are 'saved' anyway so it matters not what you do. You say 'Men hearing the word of the gospel' is the power to save but only if they're already 'picked' to understand and receive grace. So it's a formality.....

Todah
November 4th, 2010, 09:45 PM
Concerning the question, "Did Christ Die for everyone, or just some?'

I remember when I surrendered myself to God, I truly believed that a miracle had taken place, and that I had been born again! That God was present in my life and that He loved me, and I sensed His invisible presence, around me and others.

Within a few months time I was despondent and quaking in fear that I was not truly saved, because of what I was reading in the Bible about two topics; Election and the unpardonable sin. One of my new friends in my new Church was a devote Calvinist, who was the most confident person, in his own salvation, that I had ever met. To him it was the greatest doctrine ever discovered. We have nothing to do with our own salvation. God decided who he was going to save, before he created a single one of us. Therefore there was nothing we could do to gain it, and more importantly to him; absolutely nothing he could do to lose it. He had not a care, or a worry in the world. He was absolutely bulletproof and fearless.

I, on the other hand, took the contrary position. If God chose who was going to be saved, and, what if he did not choose me, then there is absolutely, positively, and eternally, nothing I could do to change His mind, and get Him to save me. And I definitely still needed to be saved, because...........

I had discovered this dreadful verse that said..."he who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him, but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit it will not be forgiven him, either in this age, or in the age to come."

Several years earlier I had done exactly that. When the woman I had planned to marry, confessed she cheated on me, and denied ever having "really" loved me. I snapped. That night in a rage, I cursed her, myself, and all three members of the trinity, with vile words, and oaths. I wanted to die. I wanted to be destroyed. I wanted to destroy God, with my words.

Putting together what I had done, on that night years ago, with this new knowledge that God chooses the elect, I was certain there was no way that I could possibly be one of them, because of what that verse says. An elect person could never commit the unpardonable sin, and blaspheme the Holy Spirit, and I already had. There was no way out of it!

No one could console me. Not my pastor, not my wife, certainly not this friend, or any other friend.

But, this is how I survived almost committing suicide, from my position of hopelessness.

I reasoned with God in this way. Dear Father, if I am not one of the elect, and you do indeed hate me, as Esau was hated by you; I will not take my life, but you who create life and can cause death, you can take my life whenever you see fit. Therefore I leave my life, and my death, in your hands, and not mine. It is not my right to take my own life, it is yours, if you so choose..........Father, I believe I have committed a sin which you in your own Word, say that you will never forgive. My pastor assures me that I am wrong in my understanding. Whether he, or I, am right, I simply ask you to forgive me of this sin, as you have forgiven me of all others. Your forgiveness and your mercy is my only hope. If you spare my life, I will live on, in the hope of your future forgiveness and your mercy.

Just as the prophet said to Ninevah, " Forty days and Ninevah shall be destroyed " The king reasoned what have we got to lose by repenting, perhaps he will yet forgive us, and the word of the Lord will not come to pass. So did I repent of my blasphemy, and asked forgiveness for the unpardonable sin, and my lack of being one of the elect. After all, what did I possibly have to lose???

I write this long testimony tonight, to give faith and boldness to anyone who may be a new believer and reading this thread, which states that Christ's death and God's forgiveness is not for everyone.

Fear not, even if that lie, were true, throw yourself upon the mercy of God, for He is gracious and far more merciful than anyone on this forum, or even in this whole world, can possibly realize and understand.

I am still here, 24 years later, and understand God much better now than I did then, and much better than my friend did.

steko
November 4th, 2010, 10:30 PM
Romans 1-3 All men are without excuse and universally condemned because God has made Himself plain and known.

"He is there and He is not silent" -Francis Schaeffer

Good book, GR. It along with his others are read and reread by me.

steko
November 4th, 2010, 10:45 PM
Concerning the question, "Did Christ Die for everyone, or just some?'

I remember when I surrendered myself to God, I truly believed that a miracle had taken place, and that I had been born again! That God was present in my life and that He loved me, and I sensed His invisible presence, around me and others.

<snip>

I write this long testimony tonight, to give faith and boldness to anyone who may be a new believer and reading this thread, which states that Christ's death and God's forgiveness is not for everyone.

Fear not, even if that lie, were true, throw yourself upon the mercy of God, for He is gracious and far more merciful than anyone on this forum, or even in this whole world can possibly realize and understand.

I am still here 24 years later, and understand God much better now than I did then, and much better than my friend did.

Good post and testimony Todah. I've encountered many people that have been convinced that they had commited the 'unpardonable sin'. It's sad that clarity on this matter is so lacking in many churches today. I'm sorry for your torment but I'm sure that what you've been through makes GOD's amazing grace that much more amazing.
Thanks!

Rev 22:17 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.

beloved57
November 4th, 2010, 10:58 PM
gr


He is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.

Correct, and that world is made righteous, because its sins are gone before God..

beloved57
November 4th, 2010, 11:18 PM
steko:


Jesus is the potential Saviour of all people.

Thats your jesus, The Jesus I serve is the Saviour of the World..

Arthur Brain
November 5th, 2010, 12:05 AM
steko:



Thats your jesus, The Jesus I serve is the Saviour of the World..

:squint:

No He isn't. He's the saviour of a select few namely your 'beloved' elect and no more.

beloved57
November 5th, 2010, 12:20 AM
:squint:

No He isn't. He's the saviour of a select few namely your 'beloved' elect and no more.

The world of the elect..

steko
November 5th, 2010, 12:22 AM
steko:



Thats your jesus, The Jesus I serve is the Saviour of the World..

Joh 1:11 He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him.
Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

godrulz
November 5th, 2010, 12:51 AM
The world of the elect..

Scripture twisting/revisionism. The Johannine use of world is the unregenerate world, not the elect. Calvinism must import its own definitions to retain a preconceived view that is wrong.

beloved57
November 5th, 2010, 08:56 AM
Joh 1:11 He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him.
Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

The Elect. Thats who received Him and Believed on His Name. Those that had been predestinated to the Adoption of Children by Jesus Christ. eph 1:

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

So those have a right to become [ manifested] as Children of God !

godrulz
November 5th, 2010, 11:10 AM
Corporate, conditional, in Christ election is the key, not individual, unconditional, apart from Christ.

ThePresbyteers
November 8th, 2010, 07:34 AM
This message is deleted and closed.

beloved57
November 9th, 2010, 07:38 AM
blackbird:


So all our behavior is a result of God calling the shots?

Yes. God has made some of us as vessels of wrath to be fitted for destruction Rom 9:20-22

20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

God most certainly did not Love these creatures with an everlasting Love through Jesus Christ, and most certainly He did not send His Beloved Son into the World to save them from their sins.

patricius79
November 9th, 2010, 11:44 AM
1 Jn 2:2, 1 Tim 2:4,6, Rom 11:32

beloved57
November 12th, 2010, 09:15 PM
Jesus died for those it was promised that He shall save from their sins Matt 1:21


21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.[which means by the way, those he does not save from their sins were not his people]

Thats the promise, all else is speculation and doctrines of men and devils.

Lk 19:10


10For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.[which means those He came to seek and to save are not lost but found]

He came to do His Fathers will, that all the Father hath given Him, He should loose nothing Jn 6:39

39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given [perfect tense] me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

The word for will here is the greek word:

thelēma:

what one wishes or has determined shall be done

a) of the purpose of God to bless mankind through Christ
b) of what God wishes to be done by us
1) commands, precepts
2) will, choice, inclination, desire, pleasure


All that He hath given me indicates all who has been chosen by the Father, and has been given [ once and for all in the past time with effects into the present] by the Father to the Son for salvation and to give eternal life Jn 10:26-30

26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.


27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

30I and my Father are one.

Now in light of the afore mentioned scriptures, how do we or should understand 1 Tim 2:4

4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Who is it that desires this ? Is it not the Father of Jesus Christ who sent Him to do His will ?

Are the same people in view in 1 Tim 2:4 as is in Jn 6:39 ?

Where it is said of Jesus, that He should not loose nothing !!

What about those in 2 Pet 3 :9

9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Are the ones here, whom God is not willing that any should perish, the same as the ones in Jn 6:39 ?

If so, then the conclusion is , it is The Fathers will for the Son to save all and bring all to repentance as indicated, and if the Son does not, and looses some, that they perish, then He has not done His Fathers will. If any do perish that Christ is to save, according to His Fathers will [Jn 6:39] then Christ has failed in executing His Fathers will, because some has perished, whom His Father was not willing to perish [ 2 Pet 3:9], hence, Christ was a disappointment and not a complete Saviour.

He may have sought that was lost Lk 19:10, but He did not save all that was lost.

This is the dilemma we have if we say that Christ died for all men without exception to save them, but yet all men without exception are not saved, and some of them perish in their sins.

patricius79
November 13th, 2010, 11:31 AM
1 Jn 2:2

1 Tim 4:10

beloved57
November 13th, 2010, 04:35 PM
1 Jn 2:2

1 Tim 4:10

If they are not saved, Its Jesus fault, He is suppose to save all the Father wants saved.

patricius79
November 13th, 2010, 07:40 PM
1 Jn 2:2

1 Tim 4:10

Acts 17:30

beloved57
November 14th, 2010, 03:40 PM
1 Jn 2:2

1 Tim 4:10

Acts 17:30

Thats Jesus Christ responsibility ! Either He succeeded or He failed.

beloved57
November 14th, 2010, 03:48 PM
double post !

Gurucam
November 14th, 2010, 05:47 PM
Another popular Myth in the religious world today, is the Jesus Christ died or gave His Life for everyone in the world without exception, but the problem with that, is there is not one shred of scripture evidence that states that.

The scripture however does say that He died for His Sheep or His Church as per Jn 10:

11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

eph 5:

25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

His People Isa 53:

8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. cp Matt 1:21

Now, are all without exception His Sheep ? No

Are all without exception His Church ? No

Are all without exception His People ? No

For surely the seed of the serpent Gen 3:15 cannot be of His Sheep, His Church, or His People.

So why does the religous world proclaim that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception, when they have no scripture proof ? Because it is a Myth.

And what about 'the dead'? The dead refers to those who are dead to their spirit or heart. They are children of the flesh.

Did Jesus die for 'the dead' when, quite to the opposite, He showed His disdain for them when He said, 'let the dead bury their dead'?

And what about Jesus' revelation (through Paul): " 'children of God' are led by the Spirit". This suggest that it is not routine for everyone to be led by Spirit nor will every one be led by the Spirit.

Therefore some will not be children of God. Since there are only children of God and children of the flesh, those are not led by the Spirit remain children of the flesh.

Did Jesus die for those who are not led by the Spirit?

Did Jesus die for children of the flesh who do not pick up the offer of the Spirit? Fact is God sent the Spirit of His Son into the hearts of those under the law so that they might become adopted children of God (re. Galatians: 4 verses: 5 to 7).

Can you say that Jesus died for these children of the flesh who choose to remain under the law and not take up this offer of the Spirit which God made to them?

Seems that Jesus died for the few, the chosen few. The chosen few seem to be those who picked up the offer of Jesus' Spirit which God sent into their hearts i.e. those who discern precisely what the Spirit has in mind for them from within their own heart and obey same unconditionally.

Jesus confirmed that only His disciples were given by God to know Truth.

Do you think that Jesus died for those who were not given by God to know Truth?

'The dead' are those who are 'dead to their hearts or spirit'. They are not given by God to know the Truth. That is they cannot search their hearts to know the Spirit of Truth through which they will know truth.

Do you think that Jesus died for those who could not search their hearts to know Truth from the Spirit? They are the dead, and Jesus showed disdain for them when He said, 'let the dead bury their dead'?

More precisely it seems that Jesus died at the hands of and through the efforts of, these people who were not given by God to know Truth.

Jesus is Truth and certainly they were not given to know Jesus. They certainly did not recognize or know Jesus (or Truth) they persecuted and crucified him.

beloved57
November 16th, 2010, 08:13 AM
2 Pet 3:9 has been abused !

Many have used the scripture in 2 Pet 3:9 as a proof text that God wants all men without exception to come to repentance. That that interpretation is pure human reasoning and speculation is seen in many ways throughout scripture, but here is one of those ways.

Its a fact, that there are some living upon the earth today Whom God is reserving to be punished : They are the unjust !

Remember, in Rev 22 it reads let the unjust be unjust still

Rev 22:11

He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.



2 Pet 2:9

The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

The unjust, are those whom Christ blood did not Justify, hence, they are being reserved by the power of God to be punished for their sins.

Now, what sense would it make, and how much of a contradiction it would be for God to be waiting and not willing for these who He is reserving to be punished, to be waiting for and desiring their repentance.

godrulz
November 16th, 2010, 08:24 AM
Take the verse at face value in context and in light of other verses. TULIP is a deductive paradigm/determinism foisted on texts leading to distortion. The root problem is a wrong view of God's sovereignty and man's free will (Lk. 7:30; I Tim. 2:4; Jn. 3:16; Matthew 23:37; 2 Peter 3:9).

beloved57
November 16th, 2010, 09:20 AM
Take the verse at face value in context and in light of other verses. TULIP is a deductive paradigm/determinism foisted on texts leading to distortion. The root problem is a wrong view of God's sovereignty and man's free will (Lk. 7:30; I Tim. 2:4; Jn. 3:16; Matthew 23:37; 2 Peter 3:9).



The scripture in rev 22:11 " he that is unjust let him be unjust still" is a imperative in the greek. Thats God decreed will, they will never be Justified. They do not have a chance of repentance unto Life.

They are being reserved by Gods power to be punished in that Great Day of wrath..

ThePresbyteers
November 16th, 2010, 09:22 AM
This message is deleted and closed.

beloved57
November 16th, 2010, 10:18 AM
The Presby:


Actually, The Father gave the Elects to Jesus.

When ?

ThePresbyteers
November 16th, 2010, 11:13 AM
This message is deleted and closed.

patricius79
November 16th, 2010, 06:29 PM
1 Jn 2:2

1 Tim 4:10

beloved57
November 16th, 2010, 11:08 PM
presby:


Before the Elects are born. Right?

Before the world began. Jesus said that The Father Loved them as He Loved Him, and when was that ? Jn 17:

23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

beloved57
November 16th, 2010, 11:09 PM
1 Jn 2:2

1 Tim 4:10

Matt 1:21

godrulz
November 16th, 2010, 11:57 PM
Decretal determinism is not biblical despite the out of context proof texts. God's election of Christ is one thing, but our election in Christ happens when we believe, not before we exist or in eternity past. Anything less than this would compromise God's love and justice.

Damian
November 17th, 2010, 12:47 AM
Decretal determinism is not biblical despite the out of context proof texts. God's election of Christ is one thing, but our election in Christ happens when we believe, not before we exist or in eternity past. Anything less than this would compromise God's love and justice.

Anything less than universal salvation is a mockery of love and justice. We both know that.

godrulz
November 17th, 2010, 01:30 AM
Anything less than universal salvation is a mockery of love and justice. We both know that.

I do not know that because it is false.

Love has provided a perfect provision for redemption, but love also demands free will. It is painfully obvious that many reject God's love which cannot be divorced from His holiness and responsibility as a just Moral Governor of the universe. Jesus (not ACIM counterfeit) contrasts life and death, heaven and hell. There are two destinies because some know and love God, while others reject Him and His necessary provision. Satan and Hitler are not saved in the end, etc.

I believe the Bible, not your musings which are not the authoritative Word of God.

beloved57
November 17th, 2010, 07:47 AM
Anything less than universal salvation is a mockery of love and justice. We both know that.

God does not Love the Devil and his children, and has plenty of Justice for them. Matt 25:


41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Matt 23:

32Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

patricius79
November 17th, 2010, 10:49 AM
Matt 1:21

amen

Jn 3:17

1 Jn 2:2

1 Tim 4:10

Rom 11:32

beloved57
November 17th, 2010, 11:21 AM
amen

Jn 3:17

1 Jn 2:2

1 Tim 4:10

Rom 11:32

So you believe He shall save His people from their sins ? You do understand that means those not saved are not his people and thats why he saved them not from their sins..

The promise is limited to His People.

patricius79
November 17th, 2010, 01:06 PM
\ You do understand that means those not saved are not his people and thats why he saved them not from their sins..
.

that is not in Scripture.

1 Jn 2:2

Acts 17:30

1 Tim 4:10

Rom 11:32

beloved57
November 18th, 2010, 01:01 AM
Rom 5:19

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

If we do not believe in the Jesus Christ, that by His obedience alone, many shalll be made righteous, then we do not believe in the Christ of Holy scripture. His obedience alone, as in the obedience of ONE, shal make many to be righteous.

If we include, our Faith, our repentance, anything we do, water baptism and etc, or any act of obedience of ours, to constitute us righteous, then we do not believe in the Christ of scripture and the accomplishment of His obedience unto death.

beloved57
November 18th, 2010, 07:33 AM
Those Christ died for , though for a time, while in nature they do not realize it, will never be condemned for their sins because Christ died for them 1 Cor 15:3

3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

Rom 4:25

25Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

When Christ died for their sins and paid in full the sin curse of all their iniquities.

And when Christ was raised again after having all our guilt laid upon His Shoulders, being raised from the dead, this made known that His death was effective.


He is now seated as their conqueror of death, and forerunner at God's Right Hand, and while He is there, He intercedes for and in behalf of all for whom He died, not for the whole Human race without exception, but for those given to Him by His Father, and His intercession for them with God is on the basis of His Shed Blood Matt 26:28

28For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

The intercession of Christ for all those He died for produces Effective intervention, ensuring that they turn to God !

Rom 8:31-34



31What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

32He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

The word for intercession in the greek is in the present tense, meaning that Christ is continually entreating the Father for all whom The Father gave Him to die for.

Its a travesty to even think for one second that the Intercessory of the Glorified Jesus Christ on behalf of all He died and rose again, can not but meet with a positive and successful outcome.

Thats what Isa means here Isa 53:10

10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

The Prolonging of His Days speaks to His resurrection from the dead and ascending to the right hand of God, and His Making Intercession for those He died, and as a result, the Pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His Hand.

If anyone Christ died for perish in their sins, then The Pleasure of the Lord did not prosper in His Hand, neither was His intercession effective in sending intervention in the Lives for whom He died and God wanted saved..

patricius79
November 18th, 2010, 06:29 PM
If we include, our Faith, our repentance, anything we do, water baptism and etc, or any act of obedience of ours, to constitute us righteous, then we do not believe in the Christ of scripture and the accomplishment of His obedience unto death.

what you say here is not in Scripture

----------------------
1 Jn 2:2

beloved57
November 18th, 2010, 11:14 PM
what you say here is not in Scripture

----------------------
1 Jn 2:2

This is scripture Rom 5:19


19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

If you do not believe that, you don't believe in the Christ of scripture.

By Christ obedience alone shall many be made righteous..

patricius79
November 19th, 2010, 05:18 PM
This is scripture rom 5:


19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.



amen

all our works of mercy are the works of Jesus Christ

Cf. James 2:14,15,16,17,24

beloved57
November 19th, 2010, 05:24 PM
amen

all our works of mercy are the works of Jesus Christ

Cf. James 2:14,15,16,17,24

All for whom Christ died, they shall be made righteous by His obedience alone.

Rom 5:19


19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

The Many He died for Shall be made righteous. matt 20:28

Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

ThePresbyteers
November 20th, 2010, 08:00 AM
This message is deleted and closed.

YahuShuan
November 20th, 2010, 08:13 AM
Yah has put in me that there was a possible variation in Mat 20:16 “Thus the last shall be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few chosen.” This feeling has been a pushy one for quite a while and I have not really know why. So today He said look it up (duh). So out of Strong's, BDB, and Word Study, there is only one of them which gave a definition for "chosen". That being Strong's which states; G1588
ἐκλεκτός
eklektos
ek-lek-tos'
From G1586; select; by implication favorite: - chosen, elect.

So I asked "that's unusual...why is that?" HE had me click on the actual word "chosen" instead of the number, and it brought up another reference, that from the International Stanadard Bible Encyclopedia (ISBE), which stated; "Chosen chō´z'n. See CHOOSE." So I went to see "choose", and that stated quite a bit more on the subject...
Choose; Chosen
chooz, chō´z'n (בּחר, bāḥar, קבל, ḳābhal, בּרא, bārā), בּרה, bārāh; ἐκλέγω, eklégō):
I. In the Old Testament
1. Human Choice
2. God Chooses King of Israel
3. God Chooses Jerusalem
4. Election of Israel
5. Yahweh's Grace
(1) An Act of Sovereignty
(2) For Mankind's Sake
II. In the New Testament
1. Various Meanings
2. Of God's Free Grace
3. Ultimate Antinomies
4. Election Corresponds to Experience
The words denote an act of comparison of two or more objects or persons, the preference and selection of one, or of a few out of a larger number for a certain purpose, function, position or privilege.
I. In the Old Testament
1. Human Choice
For bāḥar and its derivatives: men choosing wives (Gen_6:2); Lot choosing the cities of the Plain (Gen_13:11); often of kings and generals choosing soldiers for their prowess (e.g. Exo_17:9; Jos_8:3; 1Sa_13:2; 2Sa_10:9; 2Sa_17:1). The word bāḥar is often used for “young men,” as being choice, in the prime of manhood. The most important uses of bāḥar are these: of Israel choosing a king (1Sa_8:18; 1Sa_12:13); of moral and religious choice: choosing Yahweh as God (Jos_24:15, Jos_24:22), or other gods (Jdg_5:8; Jdg_10:14); the way of truth (Psa_119:30); to refuse the evil and choose the good (Isa_7:15, Isa_7:16); compare David's choice of evils (2Sa_24:12).
2. God Chooses King of Israel
A leading idea is that of God choosing Moses as leader (Num_16:5, Num_16:7; Num_17:5); the Levites to the priesthood (1Sa_2:28; 2Ch_29:11); Saul as king (1Sa_10:24), David (2Sa_6:21; 1Ki_11:34), Solomon (1Ch_28:5). All this follows from theocratic idea that God rules personally over Israel as His chosen people.
3. God Chooses Jerusalem
A more important, but still subsidiary, idea is that of Yahweh choosing Jerusalem as the place of His habitation and worship (Deu_12:5; and 20 other times, Jos_9:27; 1Ki_8:44, 1Ki_8:48; Psa_132:13; Zec_1:17; Zec_2:12; Zec_3:2). This was the ruling idea of Josiah's reformation which was instrumental in putting down polytheistic ideas and idolatrous practices in Israel, and was therefore an important factor in the development of Hebrew monotheism; but it was an idea that Hebrew monotheism had to transcend and reject to attain its full growth. “The hour cometh, when neither in this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, shall ye worship the Father” (Joh_4:21).
4. Election of Israel
But the fundamental idea of choosing, which governs all others in the Old Testament, is that of God choosing Israel to be His peculiar people. He chose Abraham, and made a covenant with him, to give him the land of Canaan (Neh_9:7): “For thou art a holy people unto Yahweh thy God: Yahweh thy God hath chosen thee to be a people for his own possession, above all peoples that are upon the face of the earth ... because Yahweh loveth you, and because he would keep the oath which he sware unto your fathers” (Deu_7:6-8). Historically this idea originated in the old conception of Yahweh as the tribal God of Israel, bound to her by natural and indissoluble ties (see GOD). But as their conception of Yahweh became more moral, and the idea of His righteousness predominated, it was recognized that there was no natural and necessary relation and harmony between Israel and Yahweh that accounted for the favor of a righteous God toward her, for Israel was no better than her neighbors (Amo_1:1-15; 2). Why then was Yahweh Israel's God, and Israel His people?
5. Yahweh's Grace
It was by an act of free choice and sovereign grace on God's part. “You only have I known of all the families of the earth” (Amo_3:2). In Hos the relation is described under the figure of a marriage tie. Yahweh is Israel's husband: and to realize the force of the figure, it is necessary to recall what ancient and oriental marriage customs were. Choice and favor were almost entirely made by the husband. The idea of the covenant which Yahweh out of His free grace made with Israel comes to the forefront in Deuteronomy and Jeremiah. Because He loved her, and for no other reason, He has chosen Israel to be His peculiar people. In Isa 40 through 66 the idea is carried farther in two directions:
(1) an Act of Sovereignty
Yahweh's gracious choice of Israel rests ultimately on His absolute sovereignty: “O Jacob my servant, and Israel, whom I have chosen: Thus saith Yahweh that made thee, and formed thee from the womb” (Isa_44:1, Isa_44:2; compare Isa_29:16; Jer_18:6; Isa_64:8). For Israel's deliverance Cyrus and his world-empire are in Yahweh's hands as clay in the potter's hands (Isa_45:9, Isa_45:10).
(2) for Mankind's Sake
“Israel is elect for the sake of mankind.” This is the moral interpretation of a choice that otherwise appears arbitrary and irrational. God's purpose and call of salvation are unto all mankind. “Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is none else” (Isa_45:22). And Israel is His servant, chosen, the messenger He sends, “to bring forth justice to the Gentiles” (Isa_42:1, Isa_42:19; Isa_43:10, Isa_43:12). The idea is further developed in the conception of the SERVANT OF YAHWEH (which see) as the faithful few (or one) formed “from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him,” “for a light to the Gentiles,” God's “salvation unto the end of the earth” (Isa_49:1-6; 52:13 through 53:12) (compare Isaiah's doctrine of the Remnant: Shearjashub; also, the righteous, the godly, the meek, in Pss; and see Skinner, Isaiah, II, xxx ff). As the conception of personality and of individual relation and responsibility to God developed from Ezek onward, together with the resulting doctrine of personal immortality, the conditions were prepared for the application of the idea of election to individuals (compare Psa_65:4).
Coördinate with the idea of God choosing Israel runs the complementary idea that Israel should prove faithful to the covenant, and worthy of the choice. God has chosen her, not for any merit in her, but of His free grace, and according to His purpose of salvation, but if Israel fails to respond by faithful conduct, fitting her to be His servant and messenger, He may and will cast her off, or such portion of her as proves unworthy. See Oehler, Old Testament Theology, I, 256ff, 287 f.
Three other Hebrew words expressing choice in minor matters are: ḳābhal, for David's choice of evils (1Ch_21:11); bārā', to mark out a place (Eze_21:19), to select singers and porters for the temple (1Ch_9:22; 1Ch_16:41); bārāh, to choose a man to represent Israel against Goliath (1Sa_17:8).
II. In the New Testament
1. Various Meanings
The whole conception of God, of His relation to Israel, and of His action in history indicated above, constituted the religious heritage of Jesus Christ and His disciples. The national conciousness had to a considerable extent given place to that of the individual; and salvation extended beyond the present life into a state of blessedness in a future world. But the central ideas remain, and are only modified in the New Testament in so far as Jesus Christ becomes the Mediator and Agent of God's sovereign grace. Eklegō and its derivatives are the words that generally express the idea in the New Testament. They are used (1) of the general idea of selecting one out of many (Luk_14:7); (2) of choosing men for a particular purpose, e.g. of the church choosing the seven (Act_6:5); of the choice of delegates from the Council of Jerusalem (Act_15:22, Act_15:25; compare 2Co_8:19), cheirotonéō; choose by vote (the Revised Version (British and American) “appoint”) (compare Act_10:41), , procheirotonéō; (3) of moral choice (Mar_13:20): “Mary hath chosen the good part” (Luk_10:42); (4) of Christ as the chosen Messiah of God (Luk_23:35; 1Pe_2:4 the King James Version); (5) of Christ choosing His apostles (Luk_6:13; Joh_6:70; Joh_13:18; Joh_15:16, Joh_15:19; Act_1:2, Act_1:24); Paul (Act_9:15; compare Act_22:14 the King James Version), procheirízomaī; Rufus (Rom_16:13); and Paul chose Silas (Act_15:40), epilégō; (6) of God (a) choosing Israel (Act_13:17; compare Rom_9:11), (b) choosing the Christian church as the new Israel (1Pe_2:9 the King James Version), (c) choosing the members of the church from among the poor (Jam_2:5), the foolish, weak and despised (1Co_1:27-28), (d) choosing into His favor and salvation a few out of many: “Many are called, but few are chosen”' (Mat_20:16 (omitted in the Revised Version (British and American)); Mat_22:14); God shortens the days of the destruction of Jerusalem “for the elect's sake, whom he chose” (Mar_13:20).
2. Of God's Free Grace
In Eph_1:4-6 every phrase tells a different phase of the conception: (1) God chose (and foreordained) the saints in Christ before the foundation of the world; (2) according to the good pleasure of His will; (3) unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto Himself; (4) to be holy and without blemish before Him in love; (5) to the praise of the glory of His grace; (6) which He freely bestowed on them in the Beloved. And in Rev_17:14, the triumphant church in heaven is described as “called and chosen and faithful.” God's sovereign choice governs the experience and testing of the saints at every point from beginning to end.
Thus in the New Testament as in the Old Testament (1) God's covenant of grace is free and unconditional. It is unto all men, now as individuals rather than nations, and without distinction of race or class. It is no less free and sovereign, because it is a father's grace. (2) Israel is still a chosen race for a special purpose. (3) The church and the saints that constitute it are chosen to the full experience and privileges of sonship. (4) God's purpose of grace is fully revealed and realized through Jesus Christ.
3. Ultimate Antinomies
This doctrine raises certain theological and metaphysical difficulties that have never yet been satisfactorily solved. (1) How can God be free if all His acts are preordained from eternity? This is an antinomy which indeed lies at the root of all personality. It is of the essence of the idea of personality that a person should freely determine himself and yet act in conformity with his own character. Every person in practice and experience solves this antinomy continually, though he may have no intellectual category that can coördinate these two apparently contradictory principles in all personality. (2) How can God be just, if a few are chosen and many are left? And (3) How can man be free if his moral character proceeds out of God's sovereign grace? It is certain that if God chose all or left all He would be neither just nor gracious, nor would man have any vestige of freedom.
4. Election Corresponds to Experience
The doctrine describes accurately (a) The moral fact, that some accept salvation and others reject it; (b) The religious fact that God's sovereign and unconditional love is the beginning and cause of salvation. The meeting-point of the action of grace, and of man's liberty as a moral and responsible being, it does not define. Nor has the category as yet been discovered wherewith to construe and coördinate these two facts of religious experience together, although it is a fact known in every Christian experience that where God is most sovereign, man is most free.
For other passages, and the whole idea in the New Testament, see ELECTION.

The "possible variation" I mentioned was this..."Many are called, BUT FEW CHOOSE".

This is what I mean when I say ASK YAH! HE will show you what you missed!

ThePresbyteers
November 20th, 2010, 08:14 AM
This message is deleted and closed.

beloved57
November 20th, 2010, 08:41 AM
The presby:


Let's not forget that Adam and Eve wasn't born a sinner.

Hmm, sinners sin dont they ? I mean would Adam and Eve had Transgressed if they were not sinners prone to sin in the first place ?

beloved57
November 20th, 2010, 09:07 AM
Rom 8:33-34


33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

One of the many blessings that Christ death secured for all them He died for is His Present Intercession for them to God premised solely upon His Blood shed for them..

All that Christ died for would be born in sin, but God would have to deliver them all, and this is ensured by Christ being in Heaven making intercession for them.

Remember, He gave Himself for us [ The elect] in order that He would deliver us from this present evil world according to Gods will Gal 1:4-5


4Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

5To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

To their shame, many today do not believe that Christ Intercession is effective, in that they believe, many for whom Christ gave himself for, and is now presently interceding for, will yet perish in their sins..how frightening..

What they fail to realize, is that Christ Intercession ensures for every sinner He died for, a Divine Intervention in their lives delivering them from sin and converting them unto God..

This was vividly demonstrated in the intervention in the Life of the apostle Paul when he was on the road to Damascus.

The effects of the Intercession of Christ for those He died is bringing them to God by Him Heb 7:25


25Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Their coming to God is evidence of He having saved them to the uttermost and His Intercession for them..

So, for you who believe that there are some to perish in their sins for whom Christ died and rose, you discredit the value of His redeeming blood, and His Intercession is uneffectual..because of your insistence that mans freewill determines these outcomes..

YahuShuan
November 20th, 2010, 10:14 AM
Let's not forget that Adam and Eve wasn't born a sinner. That changes everything and needs to be re-interpreted by sinful mankind. Many talk like they were born sinners and like the rest of us. Sinners don't have free will but Captive or slaved will as described in the Bible. Look for it and you will find many quotes on those subjects.

God could avoided the Earth to form or the big bang, banged:beanboy:

What a vacuum !
Times chases space form the center of God.:kook:
The Earth spun and there was Arthur Brain crying:jawdrop:, "Why do I exist?":alien:

And... how do we know that "Adam" had no sin? Simple...
Gen 1:26-31 And Elohim said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over the livestock, and over all the earth and over all the creeping creatures that creep on the earth.” And Elohim created the man in His image, in the image of Elohim He created him – male and female He created them. And Elohim blessed them, and Elohim said to them, “Bear fruit and increase, and fill the earth and subdue it, and rule over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over all creatures moving on the earth.” And Elohim said, “See, I have given you every plant that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed, to you it is for food. And to every beast of the earth, and to every bird of the heavens, and to every creeping creature on the earth, in which there is life, every green plant is for food.” And it came to be so. And Elohim saw all that He had made, and see, it was very good. And there came to be evening and there came to be morning, the sixth day."

It was "all" "very good" in His eyes. And after the fall it was not. For we see the Son saying later, most obviously because of the flesh He wore which was something He took on as inheritance from Adam, being "the last Adam" to "restore" or shall I say, to tear the veil between us and Yah so that we can today utilize the opportunity to "worship in SPIRIT and in Truth". Thus saying, to worship in truth, one must worship in spirit WITH truth. "Restoring" the relationship that we should have had....Mat 19:17 And He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except One – Elohim. But if you wish to enter into life, guard the commands.”

And also showing us that guarding the commands is what we should be doing "IF" we "wish to enter into life". To me, that sure don't sound like "we are not under the law" as has been interpreted by many christian denominations, but rather, quite clearly states that somebody has "twisted Paul's writings to their own destruction" as is also stated, in the NT. In John 5:43-47 the Messiah we base our belief on solidly says; “I have come in My Father’s Name and you do not receive Me, if another comes in his own name, him you would receive. How are you able to believe, when you are receiving esteem from one another, and the esteem that is from the only Elohim you do not seek? Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father. There is one who accuses you: Mosheh, in whom you have set your expectation. For if you believed Mosheh, you would have believed Me, since he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how shall you believe My words?”
I mean clearly, reading that with open eyes to see, how does one not "look up and say what have I done"? Coming from the perspective of a christian that is. I mean really, just WHO is it that we are to believe? Then why don't we "all"?

Because there is a time for everything under the sun! It will come. "This is the patience of the saints". Thus it is my personal feeling that none of us wish to be caught beating any servants, let alone those who are blind. I myself have gotten way to caught up in the arguing over mere little words and doctrines of men. I am trying to learn just to say what Abba wants said, according to His Words, and then but out as much as possible so others can seek from HIM too. Yet I truly can not say "peace peace when there is no peace", so the "truth of the matters" must always be first and foremost, but not the truths of men. There is One truth, and it is His who made us. No matter who says what down here, or who writes what, or who says I studied this or that and this is the way it is, WE MUST ASK YAH what is truth. Each and every one of us. If we do so, we are not let down by any means. One must question that which tries to enter into us that leads us away...astray, from doing so. Away from believing what is right in front of our faces that is "not seen". One must admit, "what keeps me from seeing, must be delusion", and thereby ASK..."what have I done?" "I", ME, MYSELF???

It ain't nobody's fault but my own, because I didn't "ask the Father". I believe that to be a Universal effect of man's trangressing of the Torah of Yah. Just like He warned, "to the third and fourth generations of them that hate Me" He said.

Shortly stated, we all best find some "commands" to "guard" and fugure out just what "law" are are under and what law we ain't under! For that we NEED Torah. Or maybe we will be hearing "and just what was it that you asked forgiveness FOR?"

Just some thoughts pressing on me there:) On this Sabbath He made for me and you...and HIM. The Day of the week where His People talk about HIM, and use HIS WORDS and "not their own". Once a week, not to be preached at by a "pulpiteer", but to be with and talk about Him and His Words. Not a "burden" at all. And yes, "I delight in the Torah of Yahuweh's Mouth". And I delight in sharing the day with those who have a heart, mind, soul, eyes, and ears for Him.

Shabbat Shalom to the House of Yah!

beloved57
November 20th, 2010, 06:13 PM
yah:


And... how do we know that "Adam" had no sin? Simple...
Gen 1:26-31

Where do you see in those verses that God said, I made adam without sin ?

He never said He made adam perfect, which is His standard ! Matt 5:48

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

herald
November 20th, 2010, 06:21 PM
Jesus died for all men!!!

flintstoned
November 20th, 2010, 06:55 PM
Jesus died for all men!!!

He died only for the believers. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

beloved57
November 20th, 2010, 07:00 PM
Jesus died for all men!!!

The all men Jesus died for shall be made righteous. Rom 5:19


19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Do you believe that ?

oatmeal
November 20th, 2010, 07:02 PM
1Jn 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Well said.

oatmeal
November 20th, 2010, 07:03 PM
Jn 3:17, Rom 11:32, 1 Tim 2:4,6

Yes, indeed.

ThePresbyteers
November 20th, 2010, 11:04 PM
This message is deleted and closed.

ThePresbyteers
November 20th, 2010, 11:10 PM
This message is deleted and closed.

beloved57
November 20th, 2010, 11:35 PM
Created in the "likeness of God" might qualify for sinless.
Perhaps Jesus came as a sinless person to replace Adam back to the original state.
The second Adam

(note: I think YahuShuan said what I said. Not sure cause I'm falling asleep, I'll re-read what YahuShuan said in the morning. :nightall: )

God never said Adam was created sinless, thats a myth of man. Why would Jesus create man back to what adam was before he transgressed, that would only mean he could transgress again..

The righteousness Christ had, was sinless perfection , could not sin, that was proven in lk 4..

godrulz
November 21st, 2010, 12:28 AM
He died only for the believers. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

His death was intended for all and sufficient for all. The provision is perfect, but it is only efficacious for those who believe. The grounds provide salvation potentially for all, but the objective provision must be subjectively appropriated. The condition of faith limits its application to believers, but anyone can become a believer by receiving vs rejecting Him.

Jn. 3:16 Johannine use of world is unregenerate/lost, not Calvinistic elite elect.

Adam was created innocent. He had a blank moral slate and became a sinner when he sinned (this was not a necessity, but a possibility due to image of God/free will).

steko
November 21st, 2010, 01:00 AM
God never said Adam was created sinless, thats a myth of man...

If Adam wasn't created sinless, then GOD would be responsible for sin, which would mean that GOD would be opposing himself.
A perfect GOD could only create that which is complete and whole. Sin is a hole in GOD's original perfect creation. Sin has it's origin in the misuse of freewill, which was a 'good' gift from GOD to man.

Gen 1:31 And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good.

beloved57
November 21st, 2010, 03:13 PM
steko:


If Adam wasn't created sinless

He wasnt, if he was, why did he sin ? Sinners sin..

beloved57
November 21st, 2010, 10:44 PM
I have been witnessing the Truth of Rom 5:19and how it teaches that Christ one act of obedience shall make many righteous.

Now we will look at what Rom 5:18 states :


18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Now the gospel here states emphatically that by one man's act of righteousness, the free gift of Justification of life came upon all men.

Now who is this righteousness of one, what was his act of righteousness, and what did it accomplish according to Rom 5:18 ?

Well the one man is the Lord Jesus Christ.

His act of righteousness was his active and passive obedience of the cross.

What did this accomplish ? It accomplishes and gives the Justification of life upon all who he lived and died for in his act of righteousness.

Now, do all without exception have justification of life ? The answer is no, so therefore, the act of righteousness by which all receive Justification of life, was not for all men without exception, hence, the doctrine of limited atonement is confirmed.

horiturk
November 21st, 2010, 10:56 PM
better question would be why did God even put the tree of knowledge there if he already knew they would eat of it. God,being God,would know what was going to happen. thats a major flaw in the allegory,i mean it's better to have knowledge and have all the negative things that come with it than be in total ignorance and bliss

steko
November 21st, 2010, 11:05 PM
steko:



He wasnt, if he was, why did he sin ? Sinners sin..



He sinned because he freely chose contrary to the will of GOD.

If you are saying that GOD programmed Adam to sin then GOD is responsible, not Adam. And if evil originates in GOD, then evil is infinite, for GOD is infinite being. Then if you want to posit goodness in GOD, you must posit an ultimate duality of two equal gods, one good and one evil, in an eternal struggle. I believe that it is consistent with the implications of scripture to say that evil emerges out of the good gift of free choice, wrongly executed.

Gen 1:31 And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good.

Nick M
November 21st, 2010, 11:16 PM
18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Now, do all without exception have justification of life ? The answer is no, so therefore, the act of righteousness by which all receive Justification of life, was not for all men without exception, hence, the doctrine of limited atonement is confirmed.

You are a Bible twisting piece of trash. :down:

beloved57
November 21st, 2010, 11:16 PM
steko:


He sinned because he freely chose contrary to the will of GOD.

Thats what a sinner does.

beloved57
November 21st, 2010, 11:18 PM
You are a Bible twisting piece of trash. :down:

You just reject the Truth. All for whom Christ performed an act of righteousness, receive as a free gift, Justification of life rom 5:


18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

beloved57
November 22nd, 2010, 02:00 AM
Rom 5:18


18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Let me explain what Paul means and what the Truth is, the One Offense of Adam, as He stood as the Covenant Head of Man, resulted in condemnation and guilt to all men that He stood for as Covenant Head; Now in like Manner, Christ one Act of Righteousness, His whole Life, both active and passive obedience, gives [ and they receive] Justification and Life to all who He stood as Covenant Head.

Now it must be understood that the giving and receiving of results for these actions of each Head are the same.

That means the condemnation was given and received by those Adam represented, it was not offered to them as a choice, and so in like manner, the Justification of life was given and received by those Christ was Covenant Head and represented, it was not offered as a choice..

The word justification is the greek word dikaiōsis and means:


the act of God declaring men free from guilt and acceptable to him

abjuring to be righteous, justification

So, God, because of the one act of righteousness by Jesus Christ declares all whom He represented free from guilt, and abjures to be righteous.

And again, this is not something God offers for their acceptance or refusal, but its His own declaration of them because of the one act of Christ. Not because of their Faith, of their repentance, or water baptism, but solely by the one act of righteousness by Jesus Christ..

And since we know that God has not declared all men without exception to be not guilty, free from guilt, and announced righteous, then its settled that Christ did not represent all men without exception in His Life and death of the cross. He simply did not die for all men without exception.

Nick M
November 22nd, 2010, 07:59 AM
The free gift is for all men. Not all are saved because they reject the free gift.

beloved57
November 22nd, 2010, 08:52 AM
The free gift is for all men. Not all are saved because they reject the free gift.

The free gift comes upon all men, its not offered, no more as condemnation was offered to all men.

Rom 5:18

even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Just like Judgment came upon all men :

Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;

Now, could the All Men reject that ? No. its not offered.

Its not something God offers, but what He in Himself declares to be True.

beloved57
November 22nd, 2010, 09:16 AM
Rom 5:18


18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


Now there is another group who opposes God Truth, known as the Universalism who corrupt the Gospel Truth to teach that all without exception will be eventually saved based upon Rom 5:18 !

However in this context Paul makes clear that only those receiving vs 17 Gods Gift belong to Christ, meaning those who believe through Grace..

Rom 5:17

17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Acts 18:27

27And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:


The words as and so tells us that Paul's aim is not that of number of each group, but as to the method or manner of either sin or righteousness being imputed because of one representative's headship to its group.

So the First All men refers to all who were in Adam, while the second All men refers to who were in Christ, and only God is responsible for the all men in both Representative Heads.

We did not will ourselves into Adam, neither do men will themselves into Christ, God chose who was to be in Adam [have physical being] in like manner, God chose who was to be in Christ Eph 1:4 and have spiritual being..

All the Men chosen in Christ before the foundation, are the ones receiving the gift of righteousness and the Justification unto life..

So the universalist is in error as much as the freewiller..

SaulToPaul
November 22nd, 2010, 10:02 AM
The free gift is for all men. Not all are saved because they reject the free gift.

If not for Paul's prison epistles, I would believe in the so-called "Limited Atonement". In the Old Testament, only those Jews and God fearing Gentiles who gathered around the tabernacle on the day of Atonement received the atonement. It was only made for "God's people".

What the Calvinist cannot see is that Israel fell, and Paul revealed that Jesus Christ died for all men's sins, even those not associated with Israel and even those who are not of "God's people". It's the dispensation of the grace of God, and it was a mystery hidden in God...and still hidden to Calvinists and most "Christians".

godrulz
November 22nd, 2010, 06:42 PM
If not for Paul's prison epistles, I would believe in the so-called "Limited Atonement". In the Old Testament, only those Jews and God fearing Gentiles who gathered around the tabernacle on the day of Atonement received the atonement. It was only made for "God's people".

What the Calvinist cannot see is that Israel fell, and Paul revealed that Jesus Christ died for all men's sins, even those not associated with Israel and even those who are not of "God's people". It's the dispensation of the grace of God, and it was a mystery hidden in God...and still hidden to Calvinists and most "Christians".

Hogwash non sequitur. Most non-MAD Christians fully understand the gospel of grace and are as Pauline as you are. You are trying to make yourself into a gnostic sect.

The problems with Calvinism/TULIP are not related to rejecting MAD/hyperdispensationalism.

It is sheer arrogance/ignorance to think most Calvinists/Christians are clueless about Paul/gospel because they differ in nuanced understanding that is secondary to a strong Reformational affirmation of salvation by grace through faith apart from works.

If you want a cause, go after MAD for denying grace to post-cross, pre-Paul believers?! This is the real heresy and rejection of the sufficiency of His finished work, not L or not in TULIP.

SaulToPaul
November 23rd, 2010, 04:55 AM
Hogwash non sequitur. Most non-MAD Christians fully understand the gospel of grace and are as Pauline as you are. You are trying to make yourself into a gnostic sect.

The problems with Calvinism/TULIP are not related to rejecting MAD/hyperdispensationalism.

It is sheer arrogance/ignorance to think most Calvinists/Christians are clueless about Paul/gospel because they differ in nuanced understanding that is secondary to a strong Reformational affirmation of salvation by grace through faith apart from works.

If you want a cause, go after MAD for denying grace to post-cross, pre-Paul believers?! This is the real heresy and rejection of the sufficiency of His finished work, not L or not in TULIP.

This string of cliches has nothing to do with what I posted.

beloved57
November 23rd, 2010, 07:52 AM
All those Christ died for, that is, obedient unto death, by His obedience, all for whom He died shall live by Faith. The scripture says, that the Just shall live by Faith.

Rom 1:17

For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Gal 3:11

But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Heb 10:38

Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

This is important, and this will show us that by Jesus Christ death alone, it effects Faith in the lives of those He gave himself for.

Rom 5:19

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Now, Paul declares in His Gospel here, that by the obedience of one [That being Christ] many shall [ a promise] be made righteous !

Now the word for righteous here is the greek word

dikaios which means:

) righteous, observing divine laws

a) in a wide sense, upright, righteous, virtuous, keeping the commands of God

1) of those who seem to themselves to be righteous, who pride themselves to be righteous, who pride themselves in their virtues, whether real or imagined

2) innocent, faultless, guiltless

3) used of him whose way of thinking, feeling, and acting is wholly conformed to the will of God, and who therefore needs no rectification in the heart or life

a) only Christ truly

4) approved of or acceptable of God

The word is also translated Just as in Rom 1:17

17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

It can read, the righteous shall live by Faith !

Notice the word shall again ? Its a promise, the promise is, the righteous or the Just shall, no question about it, shall live by Faith.

This means unequivocal that all whom Christ became obedient for, by His one obedience, they shall be made to live by Faith. Because they shall be made righteous or just by His obedience, and the promise is the righteous or Just shall live by Faith..

So the death of Christ ensures Faith to all for whom He died. None He died for can remain a unbeliever, that would defeat the effects and promised blessings of His death..

And consequently, those never believing or having Faith, He never died for them..

beloved57
November 23rd, 2010, 11:02 PM
If all Christ died for shall be made righteous , and all without exception are not made righteous, then, common sense tells us that Christ did not die for all without exception..

Rom 5: 19b

so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

horiturk
November 24th, 2010, 02:00 AM
i think personal responsibility is a beautiful thing,while the notion of umbrella redemption is moving i believe it to be unnecessary in the extent that it is preached

SaulToPaul
November 24th, 2010, 06:03 AM
If all Christ died for shall be made righteous , and all without exception are not made righteous, then, common sense tells us that Christ did not die for all without exception..

rom 5 19b

so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

2 Cor 5
14: For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15: And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
16: Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
17: Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18: And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19: To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.


only in Calvinism does "one died for all" mean only the elect, but "then were all dead" mean all people.

beloved57
November 24th, 2010, 07:48 AM
2 Cor 5
14: For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15: And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
16: Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
17: Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18: And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19: To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.


only in Calvinism does "one died for all" mean only the elect, but "then were all dead" mean all people.

again:

If all Christ died for shall be made righteous , and all without exception are not made righteous, then, common sense tells us that Christ did not die for all without exception..

Rom 5:19b

so by the obedience [Death] of one shall many be made righteous.

Do you know what Shall means ? Try to use common sense..

beloved57
November 25th, 2010, 08:13 AM
By His Knowledge He shall Justify Many !

Isa 53:11

11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Those He knows, He Justifies, why, because He shall bear their sins or iniquities. But those He says He never knew, as per Matt 7:23

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

He never bear their iniquities..So His death was limited to those He knew, those given to Him of the Father..Jn 6:37

37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me;

beloved57
December 1st, 2010, 06:51 AM
The Sheep will believe in Christ because they were given to Christ ! Those God before the foundation, gave to His Son, will believe in Him in time. Thats why and the effects of having been given.

Jesus said to some, the reason why you do not believe is because you are not of my Sheep Jn 10:26


26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

So, it stands for reason, those who believe, is because They are of His Sheep. And, its specifically said that He lay down His life for His Sheep Jn 10:11,15

11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

So, its because He laid down His Life for the Sheep, that they believe on Him.

Those therefore who do not believe, because they are not of His Sheep, He did not lay down His life for.

Unbelief in its finality, means Christ did not die for one, and that one will perish for their own sins..

beloved57
December 1st, 2010, 06:41 PM
Scriptures that indicate that Jesus Christ died and rose again for a specific and definite people !

Acts 13:23

23Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: cp with 1 Cor 15:3

3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

horiturk
December 2nd, 2010, 12:42 AM
i think what christians did is take things out of context and make them into something else completely

beloved57
December 2nd, 2010, 06:05 AM
Matt 1:21

21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins

Notice, His People and not all people without exception. His People, and not all ethnic jews, for all ethnic jews are not His People. Jesus told some of them, who were of the seed of abraham according to the flesh in Jn 8:37, that they had the devil as their Father, and not God Jn 8:42-44

42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.


43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

So the Promise in Matt 1:21 is to save God's People, which puts a limit on who He came to save. His People BTW are all those Chosen in Him Eph 1:4

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

beloved57
December 4th, 2010, 03:12 AM
Scriptures that indicate that Jesus Christ died and rose again for a specific and definite people !

Eph 5:25

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

This indicates that He died only for His Church, not everyone without exception.

godrulz
December 4th, 2010, 03:59 AM
Scriptures that indicate that Jesus Christ died and rose again for a specific and definite people !

Eph 5:


25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

This indicates that He died only for His Church, not everyone without exception.

No, it does not say that, but it does support corporate vs individual election.

beloved57
December 4th, 2010, 11:41 PM
Scriptures that indicate that Jesus Christ died and rose again for a specific and definite people !

John 10:11,15

11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

This omits indication that He layed down his life for the goats.

beloved57
December 5th, 2010, 09:25 PM
Isa 53:6

6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

The all in view here is all His People, all the Children of God, the Children of Promise. Jn 11:50-52


50Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

51And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

52And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.


Rom 9:8

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

The LORD laid all their sins, not all the sins of everyone in the world, but the sins of all who would believe.

Its the sins of all His Sheep who had gone astray that were laid upon Him, not of the goats whom He will say " I never knew you ". It was for the sins of the Sheep that He paid their sin debt to God. He was the Lamb slain from the foundation for the lambs. Remember He told Peter Jn 21:15

So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.

Feed them with the Gospel of Truth..

Not one of these Lambs, these Sheep shall be lost Jn 6:39

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Remember who Jesus said the Father gave Him Jn 10:27-29

27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

All the Sheep have their sins Paid for by the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world.

His Sheep are a specific definite People that Christ died for ! The My People is My Sheep, and it was all of their iniquity that was laid upon Him, and no others..

beloved57
December 7th, 2010, 07:19 AM
Another verse that sets forth the Limited Atonement, that Christ did not die for all without exception ! 2 Cor 5:21

21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Now, is Paul speaking to or about everyone in the world without exception here ? I am afraid not, but to believers of the Gospel He preached 1 Cor 15:3-4..The Church of Christ, His Bride. Paul wrote this to them in his second epistle 2 Cor 11:2

2For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Rev 14:4

These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.



This is who 2 Cor 5:21 refers to !

beloved57
December 18th, 2010, 08:44 AM
The Lord Jesus Christ coming into the world to die for sin was in keeping with a covenant promise to a special covenant People, it was to be a mercy to them.

Deut 7:6-9


6For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

7The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

8But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

9Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

cp Lk 1:68-72

68Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

69And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;

70As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

71That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;

72To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

This is why the Apostle Paul, the servant to the gentiles spake this:

Acts 13:23

23Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

This Israel however is not ethnic jews or National Israel, but the mystical or Spiritual Israel of God comprised of both jews and gentiles of the spiritual seed of Abraham..

And so the promise of salvation has always been to a specific and definite people..hence Matt 1:21

21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

patricius79
December 18th, 2010, 02:35 PM
1 Jn 2:2

1 Tim 4:4,6

Rom 5:18-19

1 Tim 4:10

Rom 11:32

beloved57
December 18th, 2010, 11:25 PM
The false concept that Christ died for all men without exception, is a Antichrist doctrine that minimizes the effects and consequences of Christ death, in order to give man credit for the efficaciousness of Christ work, this is a work of the devil..

Now lets look at another scripture teaching of Paul, in His Gospel of Christ.

The consequences or effects of Adam verses that of Jesus Christ..

Rom 5:15


15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one [Adam] many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Many [ those who Adam was the representative head of ] died or be dead [alienation from God] through or because of one man's offense or trespass [Rom 5:12]

Now, it should be pointed out and made clear, that the effects of Adams actions was received, given and not offered and made available to all those he represented in his offence. It was not offered them, hey since Adam sinned, you wanna accept being made dead, or accept that you died its up to your freewill ? It was none of that, but simply, they received of God the sentence of death, nothing they could do or say about it..

Now the contrast !

Much more, as the consequences and effects of the One Man Christ Jesus, and those He represented, as a effect the Grace of God, and the Gift by Grace [ righteousness] again which is by or through one Man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded to many..That is, they have received, been given the Grace of God and the gift of righteousness, it was not offered them, made available to them, but it was received by them as effectively as death was received by those that Adam represented.

This Grace of God Paul says abounded unto many, that is they [the many] was furnished with abundant grace..not only that, but they were give the gift by grace !

What gift ? vs 16 tells us Justification of life:

but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

and vs 18

even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

So this is the effects and consequences of each Man, the Man Adam, for all whom He represented, His act brought many to be dead, not offered, and likewise, the consequences and effects of the Man Christ Jesus, much more, for those He represented, His act brought many the grace of God and Justification of life..

Now unless, we say that all men without exception have been given Justification of life, which we know is not true, then we are saying that Adams act and consequences are greater than that of Christ which is praising the creature over the Creator , the will of man over the will of God, the effects of adam greater than the effects of Christ.

godrulz
December 18th, 2010, 11:50 PM
TULIP vs non-TULIP is not God vs Antichrist. It is a different paradigm relating to sovereignty, free will, nature/extent of 'atonement, etc. If anything, the noetic effects of sin, violation of exegetical/theological principles, etc. is the issue.

Let's save doctrines of demons talk for Christianity vs Islam, JWs, Mormons, etc., not theological disputes between equally capable, godly believers that appear to have support in Scripture (proof texting is the problem, not demons). What may be demonic is the accuser of brethren mentality, undermining of love/unity in the Body over peripheral issues, etc.

No Sheep Here
December 19th, 2010, 12:28 AM
Where does it say that God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent? The principle is taught without the exact words, duh.How can your god be both omniscient and omnipotent at the same time? That is impossible, kinda like a square circle. Think about it. If it is true that your bible has accurate predictions about future events regarding the things that will happen before the Christian myth of Jesus retuning, god is not omnipotent concerning the future. He is totally powerless to do as he pleases at this point, even if he wanted to. He is stuck on the path that concludes in the events in the bible to be fulfilled. He has laid down his omnipotence to assure that what you believe about prophecy in the future is carried out as promised.

godrulz
December 19th, 2010, 01:27 AM
How can your god be both omniscient and omnipotent at the same time? That is impossible, kinda like a square circle. Think about it. If it is true that your bible has accurate predictions about future events regarding the things that will happen before the Christian myth of Jesus retuning, god is not omnipotent concerning the future. He is totally powerless to do as he pleases at this point, even if he wanted to. He is stuck on the path that concludes in the events in the bible to be fulfilled. He has laid down his omnipotence to assure that what you believe about prophecy in the future is carried out as promised.

God is omnipotent, but this does not mean He always exercises brute force all of the time. He can do anything doable (vs illogical things like square circles), but this does not mean He actually does everything doable. He could kill me dead right now, but He limits the exercise of power based on wisdom, contingencies, etc.

Is. 46 and 48 shows that God does predict some vs all of the future. These are things that He brings about by His ability, such as the First and Second Coming of Christ. It does not mean that He is omnicausal or that He knows the future as settled if it is partially open by His sovereign choice.

Exhaustive definite foreknowledge is not compatible with libertarian free will. So, by creating significant others with limited self-determination vs divine determinism, the nature of His future knowledge is limited to possible, probable, some vs all things certain (two motifs...some of future is open, some closed, so He knows reality as it is). Omniscience is limited by the knowable. There are some things that are inherently unknowable, even to an omniscient God. It does not limit Him to not be able to create a rock too heavey to life. It does not limit Him to not know where Yoda is right now.

There are problems with classical understanding of some attributes such as omniscience, immutability, impassibility, etc. When biblically and logically defined, there is no issue with omnipotence, sovereignty, omniscience, etc.

You are attacking a straw man due to your lack of understanding of the intricacies of these debates. As well, God is not timeless, so this has implications on other areas. Wrong assumptions lead to wrong conclusions or apparent problems that actually have a resolution.

No Sheep Here
December 19th, 2010, 01:59 AM
You are attacking a straw man due to your lack of understanding of the intricacies of these debates. As well, God is not timeless, so this has implications on other areas. Wrong assumptions lead to wrong conclusions or apparent problems that actually have a resolution.Im not attacking anything, I am asking about the obvious contradiction of the claim. I'm not concerned about the fancy apologetic explanations. The fact that a god would need apologist is amusing to me in the first place. Anyways, the majority of the world is not concerned about your claim, so calm down about the attacks, your beliefs are futile to me. Your beliefs are one of many I question.

How is it you know these things about your god? Where are you getting this info from and how do you know it's accurate? I ask because I am also on other Christian boards and they seem to not agree with you. Even on this board there are many who would disagree with you. How is your claim about the attributes of god correct?

godrulz
December 19th, 2010, 02:04 AM
The Bible and godly philosophy give us revelation and logic. Christians disagree on different things. There is no problem between omniscience and omnipotence. If you think there is, then you misunderstand the issues. Test my ideas and test other ideas. Do they stand up to scrutiny?

No Sheep Here
December 19th, 2010, 02:08 AM
The Bible and godly philosophy give us revelation and logic. Christians disagree on different things. There is no problem between omniscience and omnipotence. If you think there is, then you misunderstand the issues. Test my ideas and test other ideas. Do they stand up to scrutiny?Why do you think the Christian community is so divided? Why is it that you guys can't come to the same conclusion on a book and belief which most of you claim to be the absolute truth? What is your take on this?

godrulz
December 19th, 2010, 02:11 AM
Why do you think the Christian community is so divided? Why is it that you guys can't come to the same conclusion on a book and belief which most of you claim to be the absolute truth? What is your take on this?

There are various reasons including the noetic effects of sin on the mind. It is no different than scientists interpreting the same data/evidence differently or debates about what Shakespeare meant. Some Christian groups are simply in error and it can be demonstrated that they have faulty logic. Some build ideas on imperfect translations, uncritically accept what was taught in church history (too much trust in imperfect Calvin, Popes, etc.).

Evolutionists and atheists have divergent views on any given subject. So?

It is the glory of a king to search out a matter (Proverbs). There is also much agreement and unity on the essentials of the faith in the face or heretical attacks. Peripheral issues are not the end of the world. Even the early church had doctrinal disputes and were able to work them out over time under the leadership of the Spirit.

No Sheep Here
December 19th, 2010, 02:27 AM
There are various reasons including the noetic effects of sin on the mind. It is no different than scientists interpreting the same data/evidence differently or debates about what Shakespeare meant. Some Christian groups are simply in error and it can be demonstrated that they have faulty logic. Some build ideas on imperfect translations, uncritically accept what was taught in church history (too much trust in imperfect Calvin, Popes, etc.).

Evolutionists and atheists have divergent views on any given subject. So?

It is the glory of a king to search out a matter (Proverbs). There is also much agreement and unity on the essentials of the faith in the face or heretical attacks. Peripheral issues are not the end of the world. Even the early church had doctrinal disputes and were able to work them out over time under the leadership of the Spirit. Well first off it is nothing like scientist debating on data, because with data the claim is falsifiable depending on data, and that's when real scientist get in the lab and prove their conclusion true or false, it's not solved with debates or opinions, it's resolved by testing. Religious claims are nothing like this, because you can't falsify someones faith claim unless it's testable and it's not because it's a faith claim which by definition requires no evidence to begin with.

I see Christians always say certain groups are in error--not their own of course. How do you know you're not in error? And I'm sorry, but their are not just trivial arguments like you would want me to believe; there are very problematic issues in a lot of cases concerning salvation and other matter. Like the other day when you tried to say Noguru agrees with you on the essential but you just disagree with minor details; well, he corrected you on that and said in the next post that he agrees on nothing you do for the most part. So I am asking you how do you know you are not the one who is in error? What can you say or show me so that I can reach the conclusion you have arrived at? And please do not give me some obtuse answer like you have to have the spirit. Give me something tangible.

Nick M
December 19th, 2010, 05:20 AM
God is omnipotent, but this does not mean He always exercises brute force all of the time. He can do anything doable (vs illogical things like square circles), but this does not mean He actually does everything doable. He could kill me dead right now, but He limits the exercise of power based on wisdom, contingencies, etc.

Is. 46 and 48 shows that God does predict some vs all of the future. These are things that He brings about by His ability, such as the First and Second Coming of Christ. It does not mean that He is omnicausal or that He knows the future as settled if it is partially open by His sovereign choice.

Exhaustive definite foreknowledge is not compatible with libertarian free will. So, by creating significant others with limited self-determination vs divine determinism, the nature of His future knowledge is limited to possible, probable, some vs all things certain (two motifs...some of future is open, some closed, so He knows reality as it is). Omniscience is limited by the knowable. There are some things that are inherently unknowable, even to an omniscient God. It does not limit Him to not be able to create a rock too heavey to life. It does not limit Him to not know where Yoda is right now.

There are problems with classical understanding of some attributes such as omniscience, immutability, impassibility, etc. When biblically and logically defined, there is no issue with omnipotence, sovereignty, omniscience, etc.

You are attacking a straw man due to your lack of understanding of the intricacies of these debates. As well, God is not timeless, so this has implications on other areas. Wrong assumptions lead to wrong conclusions or apparent problems that actually have a resolution.

Unless of course he is dealing with sin. Right?


God is holy, not a deaf, dumb, blind idol with amnesia.

Nick M
December 19th, 2010, 05:23 AM
How can your god be both omniscient and omnipotent at the same time?

Because he isn't omniscient. The Bible says so. He says he has been suprised at what people do. If you are all powerful, then you can not be all knowing. Because if you knwo what is going to happen, then you can not stop it.

You are arguing with a non believer, you know that right?

YahuShuan
December 19th, 2010, 06:50 PM
1 Jn 2:2

1 Tim 4:4,6

Rom 5:18-19

1 Tim 4:10

Rom 11:32

In Romans 11:32 Paul is midrashing (as usual) a haftorah portion located in Isaiah...

Isaiah 59: Look, the hand of יהוה has not become too short to save, nor His ear too heavy to hear. But your crookednesses have separated you from your Elohim. And your sins have hidden His face from you, from hearing. For your hands have been defiled with blood, and your fingers with crookedness; your lips have spoken falsehood, your tongue mutters unrighteousness. No one calls for righteousness, and no one pleads for truth. They trust in emptiness and speak worthlessness; they conceive trouble and bring forth wickedness. They have hatched adders’ eggs and they weave the spider’s web. Whoever eats their eggs dies, and when one is broken an adder is hatched. Their webs do not become garments, nor do they cover themselves with their works. Their works are works of wickedness, and a deed of violence is in their hands. Their feet run to evil, and they hurry to shed innocent blood. Their thoughts are thoughts of wickedness, wasting and ruin are in their highways. The way of peace they have not known, and there is no right-ruling in their ways. They have made crooked paths for themselves, whoever treads in them shall not know peace. Therefore right-ruling has been far from us, and righteousness does not reach us. We look for light, but there is darkness; for brightness, but we walk in thick darkness! We feel for the wall like the blind, and we feel as without eyes. At noon we stumble as at twilight, in deserted places, like the dead. All of us growl like bears, and moan sadly like doves. We look for right-ruling, but there is none; for deliverance, but it is far from us. For our transgressions have increased before You, and our sins witnessed against us. For our transgressions are with us, and as for our crookednesses, we know them: transgressing, and being untrue to יהוה, and turning away from our Elohim, speaking oppression and apostasy, conceiving and pondering words of falsehood from the heart. And right-ruling is driven back, and righteousness stands far off. For truth has fallen in the street, and right is unable to enter. And the truth is lacking, and whoever turns away from evil makes himself a prey. And יהוה saw, and it displeased Him that there was no right-ruling. And He saw that there was no man, and was astonished that there was no intercessor. So His own arm saved for Him, and His righteousness upheld him. And He put on righteousness as a breastplate, and a helmet of deliverance on His head. And He put on garments of vengeance for clothing, and wrapped Himself with ardour as a mantle. According to their deeds, so He repays, wrath to His adversaries, recompense to His enemies. He repays recompense to the coastlands. And they shall fear the Name of יהוה from the west, and His esteem from the rising of the sun, when He comes like a distressing stream which the Spirit of יהוה drives on. “And the Redeemer shall come to Tsiyon, and to those turning from transgression in Yaʽaqoḇ,” declares יהוה. “As for Me, this is My covenant with them,” said יהוה: “My Spirit that is upon you, and My Words that I have put in your mouth, shall not be withdrawn from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your descendants, nor from the mouth of your descendants’ descendants,” said יהוה, “from this time and forever.”

No Sheep Here
December 19th, 2010, 06:54 PM
Because he isn't omniscient. The Bible says so. He says he has been suprised at what people do. If you are all powerful, then you can not be all knowing. Because if you knwo what is going to happen, then you can not stop it.

You are arguing with a non believer, you know that right?You have an interesting view on this that I am not use to hearing Nick. Can you elaborate more on this? So you don't god id all-knowing? Am I interpreting what you are saying correctly?

YahuShuan
December 19th, 2010, 07:21 PM
Why do you think the Christian community is so divided? Why is it that you guys can't come to the same conclusion on a book and belief which most of you claim to be the absolute truth? What is your take on this?

Everybody is going to be coming to the same conclusions pretty soon...
Ecc 12:6-14 Remember Him before the silver cord is loosed, or the golden bowl is broken, or the jar shattered at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the well, and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to Elohim who gave it. “Futility! Futility!” said the Qoheleth, “All is futile.” And besides being wise, Qoheleth also taught the people knowledge, and he listened and sought out – set in order many proverbs. Qoheleth sought to find out words of delight, and words of truth, rightly written. The words of the wise are like goads, and as nails driven by the masters of collections – they were given by one Shepherd. And besides these, my son, be warned – the making of many books has no end, and much study is a wearying of the flesh. Let us hear the conclusion of the entire matter: Fear Elohim and guard His commands, for this applies to all mankind! For Elohim shall bring every work into right-ruling, including all that is hidden, whether good or whether evil.

See, folks have to believe what they say they believe or it all comes out in divisions. Isaiah 8:20 means what it say, but folks don't want to believe it. Based upon their free ride theory of not being under the law. They don't understand that Torah is a Treasure box full of blessings, but by not going into it to get them by "doing the Father's Commands" which tells Him we love Him, "If you love me keep MY COMMANDS", well then, they "choose" to be "cursed" and thus Yahuweh said "I will send great delusion upon them" SO THEY CAN'T SEE...

2Th 2:9-12 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power and signs and wonders of falsehood, and with all deceit of unrighteousness in those perishing, because they did not receive the love of the truth, in order for them to be saved. And for this reason Elohim sends them a working of delusion, for them to believe the falsehood, in order that all should be judged who did not believe the truth, but have delighted in the unrighteousness.

But they won't believe that either. Or this...

Joh 12:37-41 But though He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, that the word of Yeshayahu the prophet might be filled, which he spoke, “יהוה, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of יהוה been revealed?” Because of this they were unable to believe, because again Yeshayahu said: “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, so that they should not see with their eyes and understand with their heart, and turn, and I should heal them.” Yeshayahu said this when he saw His esteem and spoke of Him.

Yah said it plain enough. They don't believe their Messiah, Rock and Redeemer, wrote the Torah. He tried to tell them who He would accept for brothers sisters and mothers, and he even pointed to them. Those He pointed to obeyed the "Father's Commands". Which is Torah, but they don't have the belief in them that they claim because they don't believe they can "follow" the Messiah they claim to follow. That is quite delusioned I would think. Give it a minute, things are about to be whipped into shape.

horiturk
December 19th, 2010, 07:36 PM
[QUOTE=YahuShuan;2516858]Everybody is going to be coming to the same conclusions pretty soon...

you guys have been saying that for close to two thousand years....i'm pretty sure its a pipe dream

No Sheep Here
December 19th, 2010, 07:52 PM
[QUOTE=YahuShuan;2516858]Everybody is going to be coming to the same conclusions pretty soon...

you guys have been saying that for close to two thousand years....i'm pretty sure its a pipe dreamYea, it seems that this is a conclusion not known by the overwhelming majority of the world. It only exist in Christian minds and has been assumed for over 2000 yrs. As I read the bible it became clear the Paul thought this was going to happen during his lifetime as he was telling people how to act and prepare. Im not convinced either.

YahuShuan
December 19th, 2010, 08:16 PM
[QUOTE=horiturk;2516869]Yea, it seems that this is a conclusion not known by the overwhelming majority of the world. It only exist in Christian minds and has been assumed for over 2000 yrs. As I read the bible it became clear the Paul thought this was going to happen during his lifetime as he was telling people how to act and prepare. Im not convinced either.

The Book of Daniel states that in the last days "knowledge will be increased". You can not deny that technology has increased "like birth pains", nor can anyone deny that the loss of lives on the planet has also increased like "birth pains" recently. Nor can anyone deny that the prophecies of the Bible are not "cycles" as was written, instead of "paths" as was tranlated improperly. Nor can I deny the increase of ALL knowledge biblically either. You, no doubt can though. Now that we have planetarium programs that can go back in time, we can easily see why the Yahuweh tells us in Scripture that the stars speak, and their speech goes out to ALL THE EARTH, and man will have no excuse... Star of Bethlehem (http://bethlehemstar.net) ...Now we got proof! Put that in your scientific pipe and smoke it.

I got the program and tried it myself...it's "kosher"!

No Sheep Here
December 19th, 2010, 08:22 PM
[QUOTE=No Sheep Here;2516883]

The Book of Daniel states that in the last days "knowledge will be increased". That is an logical guess being that knowledge had increased already in the writers lifetime as well. it doesn't take much to convince you does it?

Hey, knowledge will increaser in the next 10 yrs. Make me a prophet now too :Plain:

No Sheep Here
December 19th, 2010, 08:24 PM
Everybody is going to be coming to the same conclusions pretty soon...

Not you though, right? you already have the right idea conclusion in mind, huh? Yea, that's what you all say. Try a better argument

godrulz
December 19th, 2010, 09:38 PM
Because he isn't omniscient. The Bible says so. He says he has been suprised at what people do. If you are all powerful, then you can not be all knowing. Because if you knwo what is going to happen, then you can not stop it.

You are arguing with a non believer, you know that right?

Even Open Theists (who are wrongly accused of denying omniscience) do not deny God's omniscience since it is a biblical truth. We just understand it correctly (there is nothing God is ignorant of since He knows all that is knowable, but some things are inherently unknowable in a non-deterministic, contingent universe).

You will be hard pressed to find a believer who denies that God is omnipotent or omniscient. To say the Bible says your view proves you are a mental midget and should not be debating theology, especially with an unbeliever who wants coherence.

You are confusing exhaustive definite foreknowledge (incompatible with libertarian free will) and omniscience. Thanks for not helping (nor does it help to imply I am an unbeliever when I am defending and proclaiming the faith, unlike you who just nips at our heels like a puppet of the accuser of the brethren Jude 3).

godrulz
December 19th, 2010, 09:40 PM
You have an interesting view on this that I am not use to hearing Nick. Can you elaborate more on this? So you don't god id all-knowing? Am I interpreting what you are saying correctly?

Nick is denying something that all Christians affirm. Don't look to him as a rep of biblical, historical, orthodox Christianity (though he is a Christian, just not a balanced one).

godrulz
December 19th, 2010, 09:42 PM
[QUOTE=YahuShuan;2516858]Everybody is going to be coming to the same conclusions pretty soon...

you guys have been saying that for close to two thousand years....i'm pretty sure its a pipe dream

Most of the world's true Christians agree on the essentials of the faith.

Instead of the mockers sticking their noses in our theological debates, they should be deciding for or against the gospel, the person and work of Christ.

This is how simple it is: Jn. 3:16 (yes) vs Jn. 3:36 (no).

Rom. 1:16
I Cor. 1:23-24

YahuShuan
December 19th, 2010, 09:43 PM
Not you though, right? you already have the right idea conclusion in mind, huh? Yea, that's what you all say. Try a better argument

Try a coherant one! :rotfl:

horiturk
December 19th, 2010, 09:50 PM
who gets to determine who the true christians are? membership to that cabal is exclusive?

No Sheep Here
December 19th, 2010, 09:50 PM
This is how simple it is: Jn. 3:16 (yes) vs Jn. 3:36 (no).

Rom. 1:16
I Cor. 1:23-24It's not that simple but to the simple minded. It's in a book that also makes a lot of other obviously bogus claims just like other religious books. Simple enough for me not to believe. The hard part for me is understanding why you believe it.

No Sheep Here
December 19th, 2010, 09:52 PM
Try a coherant one! :rotfl:Just as I thought. I like when you guys are reduced to the simple minded nature that truly reflects your thought process.

YahuShuan
December 19th, 2010, 10:08 PM
[QUOTE=horiturk;2516869]

Most of the world's true Christians agree on the essentials of the faith.

Instead of the mockers sticking their noses in our theological debates, they should be deciding for or against the gospel, the person and work of Christ.

This is how simple it is: Jn. 3:16 (yes) vs Jn. 3:36 (no).

Rom. 1:16
I Cor. 1:23-24

Yes. Simple it is. For a long time I was not seeing that fully. Yet over and over I was troubled, hearing "Father forgive them they know not what they do", and "the Father desires that none should perish", that the Son died to "take away the sins of the world", "once, for all". And I ate a piece of bread and drownt in the tears.

Then I woke up. I had a different outlook. Like a puppy that just got let out by a Master that would love him. And I seek to please Him. I don't care what it takes. He said I could "do anything if you believe".

That's my nutshell and I'm stickin' to it. His Words are the only words I do understand it seems. They are the only true joy I have in my life, and the blessings He has given me. The relationship we share is one I never had when I was young. And as I grew I was rebellious beyond even my own inherited boundries, because I didn't have a father, dad, or whathaveyou, and all I saw was sinfulness. So that is what I learned. This churchschool that churchschool, then into the hands of publicschool...aaaaaaaaaaargh! First learned to lie from my parents, from something they "inherited, lies and things of no value", SANTA. I learned it supposedly was ok to lie. Believing in santa taught me to lie to my parents, taught me that they could lie to me...and I wouldn't even know it for years! A "Christian Holiday" is it? Hmmmmn? Do you understand where I'm coming from? Well from there on in, who could I believe that walked this earth?

The sins of my life I take the blame for, but I turned them over to Messiah Yahu'Shua, and know He paid the ransom for my life, by His death and Resurrection. I'd be pretty stupid if I didn't want to know what pleases Him and His Father. Now I have the Father I never had. And a "Friend closer than a brother". And a Brother too. A brother like no other. The Master Teacher. And I think "teacher". And I think "Torah" means "instructions". And I begin to see because I sought. I mean I definitely could not deny something was missing to be lied to by folks who stoof for the Bible and what was in it. And yep. "Truly" we would say in these last days.

But we must have missed the part about looking up and asking "what have I done?" Seems we went without doing that and right into stating what it is that everybody else is doing...but ourselves. Looking into that mirror, forgeting what we saw. We all do it. We all went through it. We all will go through it. IF we "endure". He will bring us through! So Halle lu Yah! Shalom

godrulz
December 19th, 2010, 10:09 PM
who gets to determine who the true christians are? membership to that cabal is exclusive?

God is the Judge and the Bible is the standard. The problem is translating and interpreting it properly.

What don't you understand about Jn. 3:16?

Even a child can understand the love of God in Christmas and Easter. The wisdom of God in coming as a baby, dying, rising from the dead, and returning in power and glory is lost on those blinded to spiritual truth/reality.

YahuShuan
December 19th, 2010, 10:13 PM
Just as I thought. I like when you guys are reduced to the simple minded nature that truly reflects your thought process.

You're not exactly the slickest rock in the creek are you? I mean really, if you are going to act like that then you're gonna have to git some humor out of us. You get facts from us, and then try to baffle us with your you know what. Ain't happenin', k.

YahuShuan
December 19th, 2010, 10:17 PM
God is the Judge and the Bible is the standard. The problem is translating and interpreting it properly.

What don't you understand about Jn. 3:16?

The problem as I see it is because we use our own interpretations, it says what it means and means what it says, first and foremost...and reading the concordance(s) is a BIG help to see what it actually does say. Seeing the agreements between the OT and the NT is a BIG BIG HELP.

No Sheep Here
December 19th, 2010, 10:24 PM
You're not exactly the slickest rock in the creek are you? I mean really, if you are going to act like that then you're gonna have to git some humor out of us. You get facts from us, and then try to baffle us with your you know what. Ain't happenin', k.First off it's "get, not "git". Second, I have received no facts from you. If there was anything factual about what's being said here then we'd all be agreeing. Sun in the sky. Fact. Moon in the sky. Fact. Jesus Christ is god. Not a fact, it's opinion. Hell exist. Not a fact, it's opinion.

What facts have you got for me?

godrulz
December 19th, 2010, 10:26 PM
First off it's "get, not "git". Second, I have received no facts from you. If there was anything factual about what's being said here then we'd all be agreeing. Sun in the sky. Fact. Moon in the sky. Fact. Jesus Christ is god. Not a fact, it's opinion. Hell exist. Not a fact, it's opinion.

What facts have you got for me?

You reject spiritual truth/ reality because it is not secular? Revelation is truth whether you accept it or not. God is responsible to communicate truth, so you are calling God a liar, yet fallible men you accept.

No Sheep Here
December 19th, 2010, 11:00 PM
You reject spiritual truth/ reality because it is not secular? Revelation is truth whether you accept it or not. God is responsible to communicate truth, so you are calling God a liar, yet fallible men you accept.What has secular got to do with it? That seems like an assumption on your part. And for the record, there are many religions, and yours is just one of many. For you to say I reject truth, you are asserting that I know your claim to be true. No god has talked to me and told me your beliefs are true. Heck, he hasn't talked to about 4 billion people and told them of your truth either. The majority of the world is unaware of your truth claim.

I suggest you try another approach, because your assertions about me are way off and you are not being convincing or sensible at all. Whatever truth you claim to know or have, is rejected by many Christians so ...

BTW, I am interested in hearing what men I accept as you claim. Who do I accept and in what sense do I accept them? I'll be waiting to hear this

beloved57
December 20th, 2010, 12:08 AM
Those of you who believe the false teaching that Jesus Christ died for all without exception, believe that there are those Christ died for that will go to hell, indicating that its not the cross of Christ, His death that saves one from being lost. You are saying that it is not His death that makes the difference of who is saved or lost..

YahuShuan
December 20th, 2010, 06:35 AM
You reject spiritual truth/ reality because it is not secular? Revelation is truth whether you accept it or not. God is responsible to communicate truth, so you are calling God a liar, yet fallible men you accept.

I gave him scientific proof of the virgin birth as it was predicted in Scriptures. And there was more in that proof too. When the Messiah was "brought forth" it was on a new moon during Rosh Hashanna. When He died, it was a full moon (life fully lived) and during an eclipse..."moon turned to blood". Some awesome stuff on them pages. Traceable too, for anybody like them who "need a sign". And brother are they gonna "git" one.:rotfl: More than one. Yah will prove who He is beyond anyones shadows of doubts. Even mine I'm sure. I will be happy when He does though. Not happy at what lawless ones will go through, happy to see the end of the restraint of His Words. REAL HAPPY for that when it comes!

YahuShuan
December 20th, 2010, 06:47 AM
Those of you who believe the false teaching that Jesus Christ died for all without exception, believe that there are those Christ died for that will go to hell, indicating that its not the cross of Christ, His death that saves one from being lost. You are saying that it is not His death that makes the difference of who is saved or lost..

Many are called, but quite obviously, FEW CHOOSE. Research that verse deeply and that is what you will find. "Chosen" is also "CHOOSE"! And more likely the latter is the better translation. Funny thing, I was saying that long before I actually found it to be true. Praise Yah I do for things like that, He said He would answer before we called! He is proven out in the lives of those who DO believe and seek Him with all their heart mind and soul. Those who choose not to, well, not a wonder they see but have no understandings. Look up the word "IF". IN SCRIPTURES. IF you really want to know something, you have to ASK HIM, then SEEK IT OUT, and then you will "find it". You ain't done any of that. Or you would have found the truth.

oatmeal
December 20th, 2010, 06:51 AM
1Jn 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Steko,

Thanks for putting this thread to rest.

oatmeal

YahuShuan
December 20th, 2010, 06:58 AM
Those of you who believe the false teaching that Jesus Christ died for all without exception, believe that there are those Christ died for that will go to hell, indicating that its not the cross of Christ, His death that saves one from being lost. You are saying that it is not His death that makes the difference of who is saved or lost..

His Death made the difference so we don't to kill a bunch of animals to satisfy a blood covenant that was never satisfied. Now because of that, we can go and ask forgiveness when we mess up, seeking not to offend again, but if we do, we have an advocate. We have that advocate at the Throne of Yah, sitting on His Right hand, the hand of judgement because He LIVES being raised from the dead. Thus a once for all propitiation for the sins of the world. But if they choose not to accept it, then it is not the Father's desire that they perish, but it is their own choice to perish because they "say we do not listen". That is the "choice" you are making. You are offered salvation, but it comes on HIS TERMS. HE IS THE CREATOR. You spitting in His Son's face ain't gonna go down to good. Same goes for them who spit in the Father's face. See, we are proud of Him, you are only proud of yourself. That's why you can't learn it at this time. And you can't save yourself. That's just a FACT.

YahuShuan
December 20th, 2010, 07:01 AM
Steko,

Thanks for putting this thread to rest.

oatmeal

That is true. IF ones accepts the terms of the agreement...covenant. IF...look it up in Scriptures. IF IF IF IF IF IF IF. Two letters that those who wish to live in sin can't see. Like the words with more letters, such as "all" and "forever"... or another two letter word...DO.

oatmeal
December 20th, 2010, 07:23 AM
That is true. IF ones accepts the terms of the agreement...covenant. IF...look it up in Scriptures. IF IF IF IF IF IF IF. Two letters that those who wish to live in sin can't see. Like the words with more letters, such as "all" and "forever"... or another two letter word...DO.

Yes that is correct. I should have included that in my post. I have shared that truth in so many other posts. Well, I guess I gave someone else the opportunity to share it here.

Romans 10:9-10 make it clear that salvation is available. Ephesians 2:8-9 make it clear that it is a gift, not wages.

Romans 10:9-10 make it very clear that it is free will choice to receive salvation.

How? As the scriptures say and you and I agree. IF...

Receiving any of God's promises is contingent upon us believing and meeting the conditions. It is always our choice as to whether we will meet those conditions or not.

Proverbs 3:5-6 Do we want God to direct our paths? We must trust in him wholeheartedly and not lean on our own understanding but in all our ways acknowledge him.

How do we acknowledge him? How did we learn about Romans 10:9-10 and Proverbs 3:5-6? We read it in God's word. We acknowledge God's word to be truth even as Jesus Christ did. John 17:17 and we live accordingly, even as Jesus Christ did. John 4:34, John 5:30, John 6:38, John 10:30. Jesus Christ lived a powerful life because he lived Proverbs 3:5-6 completely and absolutely. God directed his path.

Thank for your post.

oatmeal

YahuShuan
December 20th, 2010, 07:39 AM
Yes that is correct. I should have included that in my post. I have shared that truth in so many other posts. Well, I guess I gave someone else the opportunity to share it here.

Romans 10:9-10 make it clear that salvation is available. Ephesians 2:8-9 make it clear that it is a gift, not wages.

Romans 10:9-10 make it very clear that it is free will choice to receive salvation.

How? As the scriptures say and you and I agree. IF...

Receiving any of God's promises is contingent upon us believing and meeting the conditions. It is always our choice as to whether we will meet those conditions or not.

Proverbs 3:5-6 Do we want God to direct our paths? We must trust in him wholeheartedly and not lean on our own understanding but in all our ways acknowledge him.

How do we acknowledge him? How did we learn about Romans 10:9-10 and Proverbs 3:5-6? We read it in God's word. We acknowledge God's word to be truth even as Jesus Christ did. John 17:17 and we live accordingly, even as Jesus Christ did. John 4:34, John 5:30, John 6:38, John 10:30. Jesus Christ lived a powerful life because he lived Proverbs 3:5-6 completely and absolutely. God directed his path.

Thank for your post.

oatmeal

You can thank Yah (please), it belongs to Him anyway:angel: When we all listen to Him, that is when we will "serve Him with one shoulder"...it will come, the Master tarries not:) I am looking for a day soon when "that which restrains" is removed. The restrainer has been much misunderstood, for what has been restrained, are Yah's people. Yah will release them soon. Then the heavens will rejoice and all creation will worship Yahuweh, King of the Universe, when His Son has "put all enemies under His feet"! Praise be! Halelu Yah! I thank Him for your ears I see in your post, quite "refreshing":) I cherish those verses posted. Cherish them ALL actually, fully and as completely as Yah gives me in due seasons.

beloved57
December 20th, 2010, 10:01 AM
yah:


His Death made the difference so we don't to kill a bunch of animals to satisfy a blood covenant that was never satisfied.

This is not about your god and christ, But about the Christ of scripture, His death saved His people from their sins, His death makes the difference of who goes to heaven and who goes to Hell..

Away with your false christ, who cannot save an ant..

beloved57
December 20th, 2010, 10:10 AM
Yah:


Many are called, but quite obviously, FEW CHOOSE

Thats out of context, has nothing to do with the called to salvation..

National Israel however was called into existence by Abraham, but only few of Abraham's natural seed belonged to The Chosen election of grace..

In the epistles the word called is synonymous with chosen i.e 1 pet:2:9

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Rev 17:14

These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

1 cor 1:

26For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

27But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

28And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:



So you see your lack of understanding of scripture, and your inability to compare scripture with scripture ?

See ya at the Judgment..

beloved57
December 20th, 2010, 10:11 AM
Those of you who believe the false teaching that Jesus Christ died for all without exception, believe that there are those Christ died for that will go to hell, indicating that its not the cross of Christ, His death that saves one from being lost. You are saying that it is not His death that makes the difference of who is saved or lost..

godrulz
December 20th, 2010, 10:01 PM
Those of you who believe the false teaching that Jesus Christ died for all without exception, believe that there are those Christ died for that will go to hell, indicating that its not the cross of Christ, His death that saves one from being lost. You are saying that it is not His death that makes the difference of who is saved or lost..

No, this is not what non-Calvinistic views are saying.

You confuse the objective provision (grace/cross/Christ) and the subjective appropriation through the condition of faith (vs unbelief). The problem is your hyper-sovereignty/anti-free will view, not a proper understanding of non-TULIP views (you lack insight).

beloved57
December 20th, 2010, 11:22 PM
No, this is not what non-Calvinistic views are saying.

You confuse the objective provision (grace/cross/Christ) and the subjective appropriation through the condition of faith (vs unbelief). The problem is your hyper-sovereignty/anti-free will view, not a proper understanding of non-TULIP views (you lack insight).

I know you believe that there are those Christ died for who will go to hell and be punished for their sins...That means you do not believe that the death of Christ makes the difference of who is saved and lost..

godrulz
December 21st, 2010, 01:23 AM
I know you believe that there are those Christ died for who will go to hell and be punished for their sins...That means you do not believe that the death of Christ makes the difference of who is saved and lost..

Non sequitur/illogical thinking.

YahuShuan
December 21st, 2010, 03:37 AM
yah:



This is not about your god and christ, But about the Christ of scripture, His death saved His people from their sins, His death makes the difference of who goes to heaven and who goes to Hell..

Away with your false christ, who cannot save an ant..You are a whore as written in Scripture, and below is the proof...

YAH is the Father's Name as spoken by King David, and when you say "AlelluYah" you are praising HIM! My "Yahu'Shua" IS FROM THE SCRIPTURES, I have a Messiah. You misname Him day in and day out. This is your "Christ"...
WHY "CHRIST" AND NOT "MESSIAH"?

Similar to the foregoing component of Sun-worship which had been adopted into the Church, we have yet another proof of the adoption of a pagan word or name, although less convincing of its absolute solar origin. However, we can clearly see that, with the Greeks using both the Greek words Messias (a transliteration) and Christos (a translation) for the Hebrew Mashiach (Annointed), the word Christos was far more acceptable to the pagans who were worshipping Chreston, Chrestos, and perhaps also those worshipping Krista. But we will come to that later.

The Hebrew word Mashiach has been translated in the Old Testament of the King James Version as "Annointed" in most places, but as "Messiah" in two places, namely, Daniel 9:25, and 26. This word is a title, although it was used as an appellative (name) later on. Thus, this word was faithfully translated as "Annointed" in the Old Testament and only in Dan. 9:25 and 26 was its Hebrew character retained in the transliterated "Messiah."

Likewise we find that the Greeks also admitted their transliterated form Messias in the Greek New Testament in John 1:41 and John 4:25. Why then did they introduce or use the Greek word Christos in the rest of the Greek New Testament? Even if they had prefered Christos to Messias, why did our translators transliterate the word as Christ? Why did they not transliterate the word as was done in Dan. 4:25 and 26, as "Messiah," seeing that the Greeks had also accepted their Greek transliteration of the word, namely, Messias in John 1:41 and John 4:25?

Ferrar Fenton's translation, The Complete Bible In Modern English, uses "Messiah" instead of "Christ" in most places where the word is used alone, except when used as the combination "Jesus Christ." In a similar way, the New English Bible has used "Messiah" in its New Testament in many places. The Good News Bible has restored the word "Messiah" in no less than 70 places in its New Testament. The New International Version gives the alternative "Messiah" in almost all places, by means of a footnote. Dr. Bullinger in The Companion Bible, appendix 98 IX, says, "Hence, the Noun [Christos] is used of and for the Messiah, and in the Gospels should always be translated 'Messiah'." Also, Benjamin Wilson in his Emphatic Diaglott has restored the words "Annointed" and "Messiah" in many places.

Our Saviour Himself said in John 4:22, "For salvation is from the Jews" (NASB). Not only was our Messiah born from a Hebrew maiden, but also all of His Saving Message, the teachings, "the root and fatness" (Rom. 11:17), the Glad Tidings, "spiritual things" (Rom. 15:27), "the citizenship of Israel" (Eph 2:12, Rotherham), "covenants of promise" (Eph. 2:12), "the spiritual blessings" (Rom. 15:27, NIV and TEV) -- are all from the Jews! The Good News Bible, in its rendering of Romans 9:4-5 added the word "True" to the word "Worship" to make it clearer. Speaking of literal Israel, it reads, "They are Elohim's people; He made them His sons and revealed His esteem to them; He made His covenants with them and gave them the Law; they have the True Worship; they have received Elohim's promises; they are descended from the famous Hebrew ancestors; and Messiah, as a human Being, belongs to their race." Read this passage in the NIV and NEB too.

These New Testament texts irrefutably prove the Jewishness of the Mesianic Belief and the Jewishness of our Messiah. That well-known scholar of the Old Testament, as well as the New Testament Professor Julius Wellhausen, who in all his works expressed his hatred towards Pharaisacal Judaism, nevertheless wrote the following bold words, "Jesus ... was a Jew. He proclaimed no new faith, but He taught that the Will of God must be done. The Will of God stands for Him, as for the Jews, in the Law, and in the other holy Scriptures that are classed with it."

Our Saviour could not have been known as Christos amongst His people. His title was known as Mashiach in Hebrew, and Mesiha in Aramaic -- to those who accepted Him as such (Matt. 16:16, John 6:69 etc). This title is easily transliterated as "Messiah," and is generally accepted, and has been accepted, just like the Greek Messias. Why then have they not persisted with it? Even if they wanted to translate it, why have they not translated it "Annointed," as was done in the King James Version's Old Testament?

Our research in this area has produces some revealing similarities between Christos and certain pagan names and titles. F. D. Gearly, writing in The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible, vol. 1, pp. 571-572, says, "the word Christos ... was easily confused with the common Greek proper name Chrestos, meaning 'good'." He also quotes a French theological dictionary which says, "It is absolutely beyond doubt that Christus and Chrestus, Christiani and Chrestiani, were used indifferently by the profane and Christian authors of the first two centuries of our common era." He continues, "in Greek, 'e' and 'i' were similarly pronounced and often confused, the original spelling of the word could be determined only if we could fix its provenence [origin] ... The problem is further complicated by the fact that the word Christianos is a Latinizm ... and was contributed neither by Jews nor by the Christians themselves." He quotes various scholars to support his proposition that the word Christianos was introduced from one of three origins: (a) The Roman police (b) The Roman populace (c) Unspecified pagan provenance [origin]. Gearly then proceeds, "The three occurrences of 'Christian' in the NT suggest that the term was at this time primarily used as a pagan designation. It's infrequent use in the NT indicates not so much lateness of origin as pagan provenance [origin]."

This almost sensational admission to the confusion and uncertainty between Christos and Chrestos, Christus and Chrestus, Christiani and Chrestiani, is well documented and shared and published by other scholars too, as well as by the early Church Fathers: Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Lectantius and others.

This confusion and uncertainty can only encourage and exhort us to return to the only Source of Truth, the Word, the Scriptures, before it was translated into the languages of the pagans. Only then can we find peace in the truth of our Saviour being the Messiah, the Annointed, the One promised to Israel.

Who was this Chrestos or Chreston with which Christos became confused with?

We have already seen that Chrestos was a common Greek proper name, meaning "good." Further we see in Pauly-Wissowa, Realencyclopaedie, under "Chrestos," that the inscription Chrestos is to be seen on a Mithras relief in the Vatican. We also read in J. M. Robertson, Christianity and Mythology, p. 331, that Osiris, the Sun-deity of Egypt, was reverenced as Chrestos. We also read of the heretic Gnostics who used the name Chreistos.

The confusion and syncretism, is further evidenced by the oldest Christian building known, the Synagogue of the Marcionites on Mt. Hermon, built in the third century, where the Messiah's title or appelation is spelt Chrestos. Justin Martyr (about 150 C.E.) said that Christians were Chrestoi or "good." Tertullian and Lactantius inform us that "the common people usually called Christ Chrestos." Clement of Alexandria, in the same age, said, "all who believe in Christ are called Chrestoi, that is 'good men.' "

The word Christos could have even been more acceptable to the Krishna-worshippers, because the name of Krisha was pronounced, and still is to the present day, as Krista, in many parts of India. Thus, we can readily see that the word Christos was easier to convert pagans with, than the word "Messiah," especially because of the anti-Judaism that prevailed among the pagans.

The syncretism between Christos and Chrestos (the Sun-deity Osiris), is further elucidated by the fact of Emporer Hadrian's report, who wrote, "There are there (in Egypt) Christians who worship Serapis; and devoted to Serapis, are those who call themselves 'Bishops of Christ'." Serapis was another Sun-deity who superceded Osiris in Alexandria.

Once again, we must not falter nor stumble over this confusion among the Gentiles. Rather, we must seek the truth, primarily from the faithfully preserved Old Testament Scriptures -- see 2 Tim. 3:16, John 17:17, Ps. 119:105, Isa. 40:8. We must worship the Father in Spirit and in Truth, as well as His Son, Yahushua the Messiah, who is sitting at His right hand. We do accept the entire message of the New Testament, but we truly desire to return to the original Messianic Scriptures, as far back as we possibly can.

As previusly mentioned, the Greeks changed Elijah into Helias in the Greek New Testament, and the Helios-worshippers must have been overjoyed because of their Sun-deity being assimilated to the Elijah of Scriptures. To avoid the confusion between Helias and Helios, we should abide by the Hebrew "Elijah." Likewise, to avoid confusion between Christos and Chrestos, we should abide by the word Messiah, or Annointed -- remembering that Osiris the Sun-deity, amongst others, was called Chrestos. Mithras too, was possibly called Chrestos.

And here is your "Jesus"...
THE NON-ORIGINAL, SUBSTITUTE NAME "JESUS", TRACES BACK TO SUN-WORSHIP TOO
There is not a single authoritative reference source which gives the name Jesus or Iesous as the original name of Our Saviour Yahushúa. All of them admit that the original form of the Name was Jehoshua or Yehoshua. Why then, was it changed from Jehoshua or Yehoshua to Jesus?
Many Hebrew names of the Old Testament prophets have been "Hellenised" when these names were rewritten in the Greek New Testament. Thus, Isaiah became Isaias, Elisha became Elissaios or Elisseus (Eliseus),and Elijah became Helias in the Greek New Testament. The King James Version has retained some of these Hellenised names. Since the King James Version was published, the newer English versions have ignored these Hellenised names of the Greek New Testament, and have preferred, quite correctly, to render them as they are found in the Hebrew Old Testament, namely: *Yeshayahu=Isaiah, Elisha and *Eliyahu=Elijah.
Incidentally, the similarity between the Hellenised Helias (instead of Elijah) and the Greek Sun-deity Helios, gave rise to the well-known assimilation of these two by the Church. Dr. A.B. Cook, in his book, Zeus - A Study in Ancient Religion, vol. I p. 178 - 179, elaborates on this, quoting the comments of a 5th century Christian poet and others, on this. Imagine it, Elijah identified with Helios, the Greek Sun-deity!
Returning to our discussion on the reluctance of the translators to persist with all of the Hellenised names in the Greek of the New Testament, one could very well ask: But why did they persist with the Hellenised Iesous of Yahushúa's Name, and its further Latinised form Iesus? It is accepted by all that our Saviours Hebrew Name was Jehoshua or Yehoshua. So why did the translators of the scriptures not retain or restore it, as they did with the names of the Hebrew prophets?
It is generally agreed that our Saviour's Name is identical (or very similar) to that of the successor to Moses, Joshua. But "Joshua" was not the name of the man who led Israel into the Promised Land. The Greeks substituted the Old Testament "Yehoshua" with Iesous, the same word they used for our Saviour in the New Testament. Subsequently the Latins came and substituted it with Josue (Iosue) in the Old Testament (which became Josua in German and Joshua in English), but used Iesus in the New Testament.
In the Hebrew Scriptures we do not find the word "Joshua". In every place it is written: Yehoshua. However, after the Babylonian captivity we find the shortened form "Yeshua" in a few places -shortened, because they then omitted the second and third letters, namely: WH. Everyone who sees the names Yehoshua and Iesous will agree: there is no resemblance between the names Yehoshua and Iesous or Jesus.
Before we continue with our study of the words Iesous and Iesus, we would like to point out that we have been led to believe that the correct Name is Yahushúa. Our Saviour said in John 5:43, "I have come in My Father's Name". Again, in John 17:11 He prayed to His Father, "keep them through Your Name which You have given Me" -according to the Nestle-Aland Greek New Testament, the United Bible Societies' Third Edition, and the Majority Text. Therefore, in John 17:11 our Saviour states that His Father's Name had been given to Him. Again He repeats this irrefutable fact in the next verse, John 17:12, "in your Name which You gave Me. And I guarded them (or it)." Read John 17:11-12 in any of the modern English versions.
So, we have our Saviour's clear words, in three texts, that His Father's name was given to Him. Paul also testifies to this in Ephes. 3:14-15 as well as in Phillip 2:9. What then is His Father's Name? Although most scholars accept "Yahúweh " and many still cling to the older form "Yehowah" (or Jehovah), we are convinced that the correct form is Yahúweh.1
Two factors contributed greatly to the substitution and distortion of Yahushúa's Name. The first was the un-Scriptural superstitious teaching of the Jews that the Father's Name is not to be uttered, that it is ineffable, that others will profane it when they use it, and that the Name must be "disguised" outside of the temple of Jerusalem.182
Because of the Father's name being in His Son's Name, this same disastrous suppression of the Name resulted in them (? the Greeks) giving a Hellenised, in fact a surrogate name for our Saviour. He did warn us in John 5:43, "I have come in My Father's Name ... if another comes in his own name, him you will receive."
The second factor was the strong anti-Judaism that prevailed amongst the Gentiles, as we have already pointed out. The Gentiles wanted a saviour, but not a Jewish one. They loathed the Jews, they even loathed the Elohim of the Old Testament. Thus, a Hellenised Saviour was preferred. The Hellenised theological school at Alexandria, led by the syncretising, allegorising, philosophying, Gnostic-indoctrinated Clement and Origen, was the place where everything started to become distorted and adapted to suit the Gentiles. The Messianic Belief, and its Saviour, had to become Hellenised to be acceptable to the Gentiles.
Where did Iesous and Iesus come from? In Bux and Schone, Worterbuch der Antike, under "Jesus", we read, "JESUS: really named Jehoshua. Iesous (Greek), Iesus (Latin) is adapted from the Greek,, possibly from the name of a Greek healing goddess Ieso (Iaso)."
Like all authoritative sources, this dictionary admits to the real true name of our Saviour: Jehoshua (or as we believe: Yahushúa). It then states, as most others, that the commonly known substitute, non-original, non-real name "Jesus" was adapted from the Greek. We must remember that our Saviour was born from a Hebrew maiden, not from a Greek one. His stepfather, His half-brothers and half-sisters, in fact all His people, were Hebrews, Jews. Furthermore, this dictionary then traces the substitute name back to the Latin Iesus, and the Greek Iesous. It then traces the origin of the name Iesous back as being possibly adapted from the Greek healing goddess Ieso (Iaso).
To the uniformed I would like to point out that Iaso is the usual Greek form, while Ieso is from the Ionic dialect of the Greeks.
This startling discovery, the connection between Ieso (Iaso) and Iesous, is also revealed to us by the highly respected and authoritative unabridged edition of Liddell and Scott, Greek-English Lexicon, p. 816, under "Iaso".
The third witness comes to us in a scholarly article by Hans Lamer in Philologische Wochenschrift, No. 25, 21 June 1930, pp. 763-765. In this article the author recalls the fact of Ieso being the Ionic Greek goddess of healing. Hans Lamer then postulates, because of all the evidence, that "next to Ieso mand shaped a proper masculine Iesous. This was even more welcome to the Greeks who converted to Christianity." He then continues, "If the above is true, then the name of our Lord which we commonly use goes back to a long lost form of the name of a Greek goddess of healing. But to Greeks who venerated a healing goddess Ieso, a saviour Iesous must have been most acceptable. The Hellenisation was thus rather clever."
This then is the evidence of three sources who, like us, do not hide the fact of the Greek name Iesous being related to Ieso, the Greek goddess of healing. The Hellenisation of our Saviour's Name was indeed most cleverly done. To repeat our Saviour's words of warning in John 5:43, "I have come in My Father's Name and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive."
There is no resemblance or identifiability between our Saviour's Name, Yahushúa, and the Greek substitute for it, Iesous. The Father's Name, Yah- or Yahu-, cannot be seen in the Greek Iesous or in the Latin Iesus, neither in the English or German Jesus.
In spite of attempts made to justify the "translating" of the Father's Name and His Son's Name, the fact remains: A personal name can not be translated! It is simply not done. The name of every single person upon this earth remains the same in all languages. Nobody would make a fool of himself by calling Guiseppe Verdi by another name, Joseph Green, even though Giuseppe means Joseph and Verdi means Green. Satan's name is the same in all languages. He has seen to it that his name has been left unmolested!
However, let us further investigate the names Ieso (Iaso) and Iesous. According to ancient Greek religion, Apollo, their great Sun-deity, had a son by the name of Asclepius, the deity of healing, but also identified with the Sun. This Asclepius had daughters, and one of them was Iaso (Ieso),183 the Greek goddess of healing. Because of her father's and grandfather's identities as Sun-deities, she too is in the same family of Sun-deities. Therefore, the name Iesous, which is derived from Ieso, can be traced back to Sun-worship.
We find other related names, all of them variants of the same name, Iasus, Iasion, Iasius, in ancient Greek religion, as being sons of Zeus.184 Even in India we find a similar name Issa or Issi, as surnames for their deity Shiva.185 Quite a few scholars have remarked on the similarity between the names of the Indian Issa or Issi, the Egyptian Isis and the Greek Iaso.186
In our research on the deity Isis we made two startling discoveries. The one was that the son of Isis was called Isu187 by some. However, the second discovery yielded even further light: The learned scholar of Egyptian religion, Hans Bonnet, reveals to us in his Reallexikon der Agyptischen Religionsgeschichte, p. 326, that the name of Isis appears in the hieroglyphic inscriptions as ESU or ES. No wonder it has been remarked, "Between Isis and Jesus as names confusion could arise."187 This Isis also had a child, which was called Isu by some.187 This Isu or Esu sound exactly like the "Jesu" that we find the Saviour called in the translated Scriptures of many languages, e.g. many African languages.
Rev. Alexander Hislop, The Two Babylons, p. 164, also remarked on the similarity of Jesus and Isis, "IHS - Iesus Hominum Salvator - But let a Roman worshipper of Isis (for in the age of the emperors there were innumerable worshippers of Isis in Rome) cast his eyes upon them, and how will he read them, or course, according to his won well-known system of idolatry: Isis, Horus, Seb." He then continues with a similar example of "skilful planning" by "the very same spirit, that converted the festival of the Pagan Oannes into the feast of the Christian Joannes." (The Hebrew name of the baptizer, and that of the apostle as well, was Yochanan or Yehochanan).
Thus, by supplanting the Name of our Saviour Yahushúa with that of the Hellenised Iesous (in capitals: IHSOUS), which became the Latinised Iesus, it was easy to make the pagans feel welcome - those pagans who worshipped the Greek Ieso (Iaso), of which the masculine counterpart is Iesous (in capitals: IHSOUS), as well as those who worshipped the Egyptian Esu (Isis).
Further evidence of syncretism withe the Isis-system is found in A. Kircher, Oedipus Aegypticus, wherein the name of the son of Isis is revealed to us as "Iessus, which signifies Issa, whom they also call Christ in Greek."
Another pagan group of worshippers could also be made to feel at home with the introduction of this surrogate name Iesous (IHSOUS) or Iesus, namely the worshippers of Esus. Jan de Vries hold that Esus was a Gallic deity comparable to the Scandinavian Odin.188 Odin, of course, was the Scandinavian Sky-deity. This Gallic or Celtic deity, Esus, has also been identified189 with Mars, and by others with Mercury, and was regarded to by the special deity of Paris.189
Just as Iaso, Ieso, Iesous are derived from the Greek word for healing, iasis, we similarly find Isis (more correctly: Esu) and her son Horus (more correctly: Her), regarded as deities of healing as well as cosmic deities,190 or Sun-deities, by others.
The most disturbing evidence is yet to follow. The abbreviated form of the name Iesous is: Ies or in capitals: IHS, or in Greek the capital for "e" id "H". This is to be found on many inscriptions made by the Church during the dark Middle Ages. This fact is also well documented and is generally admitted by scholarly sources and ordinary English dictionaries.191 These dictionaries bear witness to the fact of IHS (Ies) being an abbreviated form of IHSOUS (Iesous).
Furthermore, the shocking fact has also been recorded for us that IHS was a mystery surname of Bacchus, and was afterwards taken as initials for Iesous, capitals: IHSOUS.192 We discovered this in a dictionary of mythology and in an encyclopaedia of religion.192
This revelation was confirmed by a third witness, Dr. E.W. Bullinger, The Apocalypse, footnote p. 396, "Whatever meanings of ... IHS may be given, the fact remains that it was part of the name of Bacchus ..." We then realised, most painfully, that our beloved Messiah was identified with the Greek deity Bacchus, by giving our Saviour the surname or other name of Bacchus, namely: IHS or Ies! Bacchus was well known to be a Sun-deity. Bacchus was also a commonly known name for Tammuz among classical writers.193 Tammuz, as you will remember, was known to be the young returning Sun-deity,194 returning in spring. Bacchus, also known as Dionysus, was expressly identified with the Egyptian Osiris,195 the well-known Egyptian Sun-deity. Bacchus was also called Ichthus, the Fish.196
So, yet another group, the worshippers of Bacchus, the Sun-deity, alias Ies (IHS), were conciliated, were made welcome, with the foreign-to-the-Hebrew name of Iesous (IHSOUS) or Iesus. This most appalling revelation startled us, indeed. After being enlightened about the solar origin of the word IHS and its fuller form IHSOUS (Iesous), we are no longer surprised to find the ecclesiastical emblem, IHS, encircled by sunrays, commonly displayed on church windows:
No wonder that we read the testimony of the learned Christian advocate, M. Turretin, in describing the state of Christianity in the 4th century, saying "that it was not so much the (Roman) Empire that was brought over to the Faith, as the Faith that was brought over to the Empire; not the Pagans who were converted to Christianity, but Christianity that was converted to Paganism."197
A further witness to this paganisation of the Messianic Belief is that of emperor Hadrian, who, in a letter to the Consul Servianus, wrote, "There are there (in Egypt) Christians who worship Serapis; and devoted to Serapis are those who call themselves 'Bishops of Christ.'"198
Another testimony comes to us from the letter of Faustus, writing to Augustine, "You have substituted your love-feasts for the sacrifices of the Pagans; for their idols your martyrs, whom you serve with the very same honours. You appease the shades of the dead with wine and feasts; you celebrate the solemn festivals of the Gentiles, their calends, and their solstices; and as to their manners, those you have retained without any alteration. Nothing distinguishes you from the Pagans, except that you hold your assemblies apart from them."

Excerpted from "Come Out of Her My People (http://www.isr-messianic.org/pubs/come_out.shtml)" with permission.

ONE NAME BONEHEADS! One name given unto men whereby all men must be saved! IT WASN'T JESUS! It was and IS Yahu'Shua ha Mashiach, Son of Yah! SON OF YAHUWEH. You don't like it? TOO BAD! Stop whoring around and go back to the ENTIRE BOOK!

Act 4:10-12 let it be known to all of you, and to all the people of Yisra’ĕl, that in the Name of יהושע (YAHU'SHUA) Messiah of Natsareth, whom you impaled, whom Elohim raised from the dead, by Him this one stands before you, healthy. “This is ‘the stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’ “And there is no deliverance in anyone else, for there is no other Name under the heaven given among men by which we need to be saved.”


And don't bother trying to bring down the author of this tex, nor the book it came from...RESEARCH IT YOURSELF! It is the truth. Research the information given yourselves. The resources are quite provable no matter what the authors intent was.

beloved57
December 21st, 2010, 07:52 AM
yahu:


You are a whore as written in Scripture, and below is the proof...

I will see you at the Judgment, and you promote a gospel that makes the death of Christ not the sole cause of one being saved..Thats a false gospel..

beloved57
December 21st, 2010, 07:53 AM
Non sequitur/illogical thinking.

again:

you believe that there are those Christ died for who will go to hell and be punished for their sins...That means you do not believe that the death of Christ makes the difference of who is saved and lost..

Choleric
December 21st, 2010, 07:58 AM
There you go again. Another thread dedicated to how Jesus didn't die for somebody. I thought you said you spent time preaching the gospel? You are a liar. You have no intention of leading any person to Christ, you just love telling people Jesus dint die for them. You are a pitiful excuse for a Christian.

beloved57
December 21st, 2010, 09:12 AM
chol


There you go again. Another thread dedicated to how Jesus didn't die for somebody.

He didnt die for everyone, which explains why some go to hell, because His death saved everyone He died for..do you deny this ?

Choleric
December 21st, 2010, 09:33 AM
chol

He didnt die for everyone, which explains why some go to hell, because His death saved everyone He died for..do you deny this ?

Yes. I deny your "doctrine of devils" that puts the focus on the individual instead of the person of Christ.

I would like to tell you that you preach a false gospel, but you don't even preach any gospel. All you do is spew venom and tell people who Christ died for that He didn't die for them. You are the worst kind of Christ-denier.

SisterChristian
December 21st, 2010, 09:34 AM
Answer: John 3:16
Everyone memorized this as a child:

"For God so loved THE WORLD that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believieth on him, shall not parish, but have everlasting life."

This verse doesn't say that God sent his son to find all the believers. It said that who so ever believes in Jesus will have everlasting life.

SisterChristian
December 21st, 2010, 09:36 AM
goodness. Why would you be mean on here? We love God and he loves us. Don't come on here to be hateful and sin. If you are going to sin, so something more fun.

rstrats
December 21st, 2010, 09:46 AM
Because of the Messiah's death, what happened, does happen, and will happen to everyone's sins?

beloved57
December 21st, 2010, 09:50 AM
That Christ saved all for whom He died is proved by the various scripture analogies that Paul uses, especially in Rom 5.

I have witnessed to that fact in this thread under the heading of Rom 5:15 !


You see, Those Christ died for had a union with Him when He died and rose again.

This is Paul's point when He declares:

The fact that by the disobedience of one, that being Adam, many were made sinners ! Not offered to be made sinners, not being made sinners if they choose to be with their freewill, but they were, like it or not, made sinners..

Now this implies that those being made sinners had a life in Adam when Adam disobeyed God; now how was that true ? How did those who had a life in Adam and sinned when Adam sinned and died when He died ?

All men were created in Adam is collaborated in Acts 17:26

26And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

Our Physical lives were present in Adam in the beginning when God said this:

Gen 1:26

26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Thats why when Adam sinned, them sinned to by their being in union with Adam.

And now likewise, the fact of the obedience of one, and that one being the Lord Jesus Christ, many shall be made righteous ! not offered to be made righteous, not given a chance to be made righteous, but they are made righteous just as effectively as those being made sinners were..

This to implies that those who shall be made righteous had a life in Jesus Christ when He performed His act of obedience to God see Phil 2:8 ! Now how was that True, how did those lives get into Christ for His obedience to work effectively on their behalf ?

Paul says in 1 Cor 1:30


30But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Of Him means its of God, that some were in Christ Jesus. They were in Him as they were in Adam, and as they experience the effects of Adam whom they had life in, so likewise they will experience the effects of Christ whom they had life in..

When Christ died for sin, their sins, they died 2 Cor 5:15

that if one died for all, then were all dead:

and when Christ rose from the dead after dying for their sins, they rose from the dead with Him, Justified of their sins He died for Eph 2:5

5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved )

6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus

So this being said, Christ died only for those who had a union and life in Him, and this could not be said of those who Christ will soon say these words to:

Matt 7:23

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

For Christ did know intimately all those who had life and union with Him when He died on the cross for their sins.

beloved57
December 21st, 2010, 09:51 AM
chol:


Yes. I deny your "doctrine of devils"

You deny the saving death of Christ, see ya at the judgment..

Town Heretic
December 21st, 2010, 10:08 AM
chol:

You deny the saving death of Christ, see ya at the judgment..

Well if he does then, by your theological light, he does so accomplishing God's will. That's a heck of a thing to be judged and found wanting for, when you think on it.

beloved57
December 21st, 2010, 10:40 AM
townheretic:


Well if he does

I will cut you off right there, there is no if to it, He does..

godrulz
December 21st, 2010, 05:28 PM
chol



He didnt die for everyone, which explains why some go to hell, because His death saved everyone He died for..do you deny this ?

The reason some go to hell is not a problem or limitation with His love or provision. The reason is that some men love darkness more than light (Jn. 1) and some suppress truth despite God making it plain (Rom. 1). They are without excuse and responsible for their persistent rebellion/rejection in the face of God's universal offer.

You negate the conditions of salvation and fail to see that relationships involve two vs one persons.

Damian
December 21st, 2010, 05:46 PM
The reason some go to hell is not a problem or limitation with His love or provision. The reason is that some men love darkness more than light (Jn. 1) and some suppress truth despite God making it plain (Rom. 1). They are without excuse and responsible for their persistent rebellion/rejection in the face of God's universal offer.

You negate the conditions of salvation and fail to see that relationships involve two vs one persons.

Your response implies that the "saved" have something to boast about because their salvation is ultimately due to their superior character (i.e. the saved, as opposed to the unsaved, are those individuals who love light more than darkness and who do not suppress the truth).

godrulz
December 21st, 2010, 09:36 PM
Your response implies that the "saved" have something to boast about because their salvation is ultimately due to their superior character (i.e. the saved, as opposed to the unsaved, are those individuals who love light more than darkness and who do not suppress the truth).

Everyone is capable of responding to or rejecting truth. Why do some do drugs and murder and others do not? Salvation is all of grace. Some cease resisting God's grace and are saved. Everyone should make this decision, but they do not for a variety of reasons. Some continue in rebellion because their heart and desires are selfish and bent on ignoring God. They are fully culpable for this and without excuse.

We do not boast for receiving a free gift. The provision is based on His death, not our brains or goodness.

You lack the most basic understanding of divine truth in Romans 1-5 because you have opened your mind to demonic deception in ACIM. You also cannot think spiritually.

What about you? You can read the Bible and respond to His work in your life, yet you do not. Why? If you do respond, it will not make you a hero nor a provider of salvation.

Yes vs No. Take away free will and intelligence concepts and you cannot explain anything.

Damian
December 21st, 2010, 10:46 PM
What about you?

Yes, what about me? You would have me believe that you "love the light and truth" while I do not.

Jesus said, "No one decides against his happiness, but he may do so if he does not see he does it." ("A Course in Miracles")

* Selah *


Yes vs No. Take away free will and intelligence concepts and you cannot explain anything.

Free will (libertarian) simply implies that our choices are ultimately based on an element of chance. Is this what you believe our eternal fate is based on? A crapshoot?

godrulz
December 21st, 2010, 11:30 PM
Yes, what about me? You would have me believe that you "love the light and truth" while I do not.

Jesus said, "No one decides against his happiness, but he may do so if he does not see he does it." ("A Course in Miracles")

* Selah *



Free will (libertarian) simply implies that our choices are ultimately based on an element of chance. Is this what you believe our eternal fate is based on? A crapshoot?

Free will involves intelligence, not unintelligent chance. Evolustionists are wrong.

Jesus did not say that since it is a counterfeit Christ in ACIM.

I have not always loved the light. You can love the light, but you are not willing and are blinded/deceived by the god of this world. We need the Holy Spirit to open our eyes, but you must receive vs reject truth. Pride is your downfall.

Damian
December 21st, 2010, 11:58 PM
I have not always loved the light. You can love the light, but you are not willing and are blinded/deceived by the god of this world. We need the Holy Spirit to open our eyes, but you must receive vs reject truth. Pride is your downfall.

This is interesting. The "saved" are humble; the "unsaved" are not. It appears to me that the so-called humble here (that would be you) are boasting.


Jesus did not say that since it is a counterfeit Christ in ACIM.

Whether Jesus said it or not is actually irrelevant. The point is the statement speaks for itself and you cannot refute it.

"No one decides against his happiness, but he may do so if he does not see he does it." ("A Course in Miracles")

beloved57
December 22nd, 2010, 12:45 AM
The reason some go to hell is not a problem or limitation with His love or provision. The reason is that some men love darkness more than light (Jn. 1) and some suppress truth despite God making it plain (Rom. 1). They are without excuse and responsible for their persistent rebellion/rejection in the face of God's universal offer.

You negate the conditions of salvation and fail to see that relationships involve two vs one persons.

So we see that you deny that its the death of Christ that saves ! Thats what is called anti [against] Christ teaching, the devil loves it..

beloved57
December 22nd, 2010, 12:59 AM
Scriptures that show the efficaciousness of the death of Christ, that it actually saves, and so those who are not being saved, Christ did not die for them..

Jn 12:23-24


23And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.

24Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

Christ saving death is how He is Glorified..

Jesus here in these verses is speaking of Himself and the Church, His body.. For it shall come forth out of death with Him, a Living and Spotless Church, Justified by His blood and righteousness.

Its a faithful saying, if we be dead with Him, that is died when He died [ 2 Cor 5:14-15] we shall also live with Him, that is experience the power of His resurrection..

All for whom He died, will be raised from spiritual death, begotten unto a lively hope, how ? By the resurrection from the dead 1 Pet 1:3


3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

So as Jesus states in Jn 12:24, His death [ to include His resurrection] brings forth much fruit.That is, it actually produces positive results and benefits for them He died..