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beloved57
December 22nd, 2010, 12:44 PM
Jesus stated [speaking of His death and being Glorified thereby] that if a corn of wheat [Himself] falls to the ground [His crucifixion and death] and dies, It [Himself, the corn of wheat] bringeth forth
much fruit..

That is He is the effective cause via His death of bring forth or producing fruit ..

The greek word for fruit is:

karpos and means:

the fruit of one's loins, i.e. his progeny, his posterity

He brings forth much posterity, his progeny, or His seed..

For this is spoken of in Isa 53 as a result of His sufferings for those He bare their iniquities notice:

10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

That word seed is the hebrew zera` which means:

offspring, descendants, posterity, children

And this seed or posterity shall serve Him...as per ps 22:

30A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

Now look at vs 26 of John 12 right after Jesus speaks about bringing forth fruit in vs 24 :

26If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

You see, Jesus through His vicarious death will produce a seed that shall serve Him..

This seed will be of all races of people, that is He will draw all races to Him, to serve Him..

And we know this is not the case for all men without exception, so therefore Christ death could not have been for all men without exception, unless it failed to bear fruit..

beloved57
December 25th, 2010, 07:01 AM
Scriptures that show the efficaciousness of the death of Christ !

We know that Christ death was not for all without exception because of its efficaciousness in producing saving results..

It shall make many righteous Rom 5:19


19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

No less than Adams disobedience making many sinners by nature and practice, Christ obedience [His Death Phil 2:8] shall make many righteous in nature and practice..

beloved57
December 26th, 2010, 09:44 PM
Scriptures that show the efficaciousness of the death of Christ !

Jn 12 :32

32And I, if I be lifted up [Speaking of His death] from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

The Death of Christ will draw all unto Him, the word men is not in the original, and so does not mean all men as individuals without exception, but all that the Father giveth Him as per

Jn 6:37

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

All races of men will believe in Him because of His being Lifted up.

Now Jesus is saying all for whom He is lifted up for and behalf of, they will come to believe in Him.

The lifting up effects the believing in Him. Lets look at Jn 3:14-15



14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

The lifting up of the serpent was for them God had determined that would not die, but should live if and when they were bitten..

Here is the background story Numbers 21:5-9

5And the people spake against God, and against Moses, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loatheth this light bread.


6And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.

7Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people.

8And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.



9And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

You see, God had already destroyed those whom He did not want to Live earlier vs

6And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.

Those whom He determined to live, He caused them to have the fear of death ! They would be bitten and look to the serpent to live..but they had to first be spared of death themselves, of which God did..

beloved57
December 27th, 2010, 11:58 PM
Jesus stated in this verse :

Jn 12:32


32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Christ Lifting up promises to draw all to Him, and He is in Glory, So Christ death and resurrection ensures that all He died for, come to Him in Glory Jn 17:24


24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

There coming to Glory with Him is part of the bigger picture of His Glory He is rewarded with after His sufferings and death..

Lk 24:46 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

Heb 12:2

2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

It was Joy before Him, because through His death and resurrection He brings many Sons to Glory..

Heb 2:10

10For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

This is the end and result of His Being Lifted up Jn 12:32

beloved57
December 31st, 2010, 01:39 PM
Scriptures that show the efficaciousness of the death of Christ !

1 Pet 2:4

24Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

We know that Christ did not die for all men without exception, because by His death [stripes] He heals all those He bare their sins, in order that they should live unto righteousness..

As stated another way by Paul in Rom 5:19b

so by the obedience [stripes] of one[Jesus Christ] shall many be made righteous.

If one does not live unto God and righteousness, then Christ did not die for them..

StrivesWithGod
December 31st, 2010, 02:01 PM
Free will involves intelligence, not unintelligent chance. Evolustionists are wrong.

Jesus did not say that since it is a counterfeit Christ in ACIM.

I have not always loved the light. You can love the light, but you are not willing and are blinded/deceived by the god of this world. We need the Holy Spirit to open our eyes, but you must receive vs reject truth. Pride is your downfall.

How do you reconcile true freedom with ignorance?

godrulz
December 31st, 2010, 02:04 PM
How do you reconcile true freedom with ignorance?

We need content for free choices. If I do not know that Hawaii exists, I will not freely exercise my right to fly there. The gospel involves content requiring mind/will response. The Spirit convinces and convicts, but we receive/reject.

What context/application/e.g. are you thinking of?

beloved57
January 4th, 2011, 10:30 AM
Scriptures that show the efficaciousness of the death of Christ !

Jn 12 :32

32And I, if I be lifted up [Speaking of His death] from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

In this scripture when Christ says He will draw all to Himself after having been lifted up [His death on the cross], He is speaking about the beginning of His Millennial Reign from His Throne of Glory..

After His suffering and dying, He must enter into His Glory Lk 24:26

Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

Jesus entered into His Mediatorial Glory, His Throne of Glory after having paid the redeeming price for the sins of all of God's elect.

On this Throne of Glory He mediates His saving benefits to all who are to partake of His Kingdom Isa 9:6-7



6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

7Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

This is Jesus building His Church, while ruling on the Throne of David, to order it and establish it..

Thats why peter says that He added to the church [or His Kingdom] Acts 2:47

And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Thats why Isa says that the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His Hand Isa 53:10

10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Believers reign with Him as they are instruments in His hand to preach the gospel to draw in the other members of His Church or Kingdom, particularly was this True of the Apostles and Paul..

godrulz
January 4th, 2011, 12:12 PM
His death is perfect provision sufficient for all, but only efficacious for those who believe and then become part of the corporate elect.

coulter4president
January 4th, 2011, 12:12 PM
Another popular Myth in the religious world today, is the Jesus Christ died or gave His Life for everyone in the world without exception, but the problem with that, is there is not one shred of scripture evidence that states that.

The scripture however does say that He died for His Sheep or His Church as per Jn 10:

11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

eph 5:

25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

His People Isa 53:

8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. cp Matt 1:21

Now, are all without exception His Sheep ? No

Are all without exception His Church ? No

Are all without exception His People ? No

For surely the seed of the serpent Gen 3:15 cannot be of His Sheep, His Church, or His People.

So why does the religous world proclaim that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception, when they have no scripture proof ? Because it is a Myth.

I've read the Bible but dont know where the relevent psgs are that support this.. but Jesus did die for everyone.. "God is not willing that any should perish, but that all [be saved]"

its just that not all people will accept Him... I feel that all who search for truth will find Jesus and all who search for Jesus will find HIs true Church... or die trying... meaning he may die b4 he gets there.. but even though the s aints taught there is no salvation o/side the Church... those who are Catholic "on the inner forum" as someone once put it.. will get to Heaven... (even if they have to go through yrs of Purgatory first and most of us do...Catholic or not)

anyway... i am wondering why you post this thread since you dont claim to be Christian... and some other "wonderings"...

coulter4president
January 4th, 2011, 12:17 PM
His death is perfect provision sufficient for all, but only efficacious for those who believe and then become part of the corporate elect.

and do EVERYTHING Jesus said..

many forget that Jesus said in order to be [paraphrase:] good enough to get into Heavne one must "give up his possessions to the poor and follow Him".. i think this is St Mk 10:17??? not sure... maybe its st Lk 10:17??

Jesus also said it was hard to get to Heaven... I've learned the hard way (which some claim is the best way) that this is true...

in other words i've learned from that "greatest" of all teachers, Experience, that this is true... I have been walkng with Jesus and trying to walk with Jesus (mor the latter than the former) for many years... since birth, really... and it is a constant struggle... to do all that He said to do... One of the hardest things for me to do is forgive ppl who do horrendous evil... but i figure praying for them to repent is forgivenes... which i have less a problem with than saying, "I forgive you"

but... uh... don't follow me, follow HIm... :crackup:

beloved57
January 4th, 2011, 11:16 PM
coulter:


but Jesus did die for everyone.

You can believe that lie if you want, but all for whom Christ died, they shall be made righteous rom 5:

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

beloved57
January 5th, 2011, 11:36 AM
Thats why Isa says that the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His Hand Isa 53:10

10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

In the Hand of the resurrected Christ, the Pleasure of the LORD [ His Father ] shall prosper, be of good success..

That means the Fathers desires shall prosper in His Hand. The word pleasure is the hebrew word:

chephets and means:

delight, pleasure
a) delight
b) desire, longing
c) the good pleasure
d) that in which one takes delight

That means, the Fathers desire for all men to be saved as in 1 tim 2:

3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

The word will here is the greek word
thelō and means:

to will, have in mind, intend

a) to be resolved or determined, to purpose

b) to desire, to wish

c) to love

1) to like to do a thing, be fond of doing

d) to take delight in, have pleasure

Now notice the similarities in this definition and the one for pleasure in Isa 53:10 !

This Tells me that Christ should prosper in accomplishing the Fathers will in ensuring that the all men the Father desires to be saved and come into the Knowledge of the Truth.

So thats the obligation of the resurrected Christ to see to it that its done. And scripture says He shall prosper, which word means:

Its the hebrew word

tsalach :

Qal) to rush

2) to advance, prosper, make progress, succeed, be profitable

a) (Qal) to prosper

b) (Hiphil)
1) to make prosperous, bring to successful issue, cause to prosper

2) to show or experience prosperity, prosper

In other words, none shall be lost as stated in Jn 6:38

38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

So, if any in 1 Tim 2:4 do not be saved and come to the knowledge of the Truth as the Father desires, then Christ has failed His Fathers will and not prospered in the pleasure of the Lord as stated in Isa 53 10

My conclusion is that Christ has prospered, and all who perish in their sins, it just was not Gods will for them to be saved and come into the knowledge of the Truth...

So Christ dying for all without exception is a myth..

beloved57
January 7th, 2011, 07:34 AM
Another element of Truth that mitigates against the Myth of Christ having died for all men without exception, is God's accuracy in proportioning punishment to each individual as they deserve. Jesus says some will be beaten with many stripes, and some with few stripes as here Lk 12:45-48


45But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;

46The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

47And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

48But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Every man will be Judged and rewarded according to what their work were

Rom 2:5-6

5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:


Rev 20:13

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.


With this in Mind, Christ sufferings though invaluable because of His Splendid Being, nevertheless because of strict righteousness, His sufferings were proportioned to His Peoples Guilt, and this alone was the ground of it's sufficiency to save. The Lord Jesus Christ punishment was penal [ inflicted upon Him for the punishment of the sins of God's covenant chosen people Isa 53:8] so His vicarious sufferings were proportioned to their guilt and so He suffered at the hands of impartial Justice what they [ Gods elect] in their own persons must otherwise have endured in the place of endless woe, and so His sufferings renedered His sacrifice sufficient for the eternal purpose intended in the covenant of Grace, the everlasting covenant..

Isa 53:5,8

5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. Not we might be healed, but we [The elect] are healed..

8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. A specific people..

Rom 8:32-33

32He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who is us all ? vs 33

33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

2 Cor 5:21

21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

1 Pet 3:18

18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Not one ounce of Christ blood was shed in vain, for everyone it was designed to save and bring to God , it accomplished the same, and all those who shall have their portion in the lake of fire, He did not shed one drop of blood for..

beloved57
January 7th, 2011, 05:54 PM
Christ died only for those who believe !

Christ died only for those who believe, the elect or the sheep. They believe because He hath taken away their sins by the sacrifice of himself for them; but He has not taken away the sins of all men for sure, for they will follow them to the Judgment to be Judged. Also the wrath of God comes upon the children of disobedience for their sins Eph 5:6

6Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things [vs 3-5] cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Those Christ died for are not appointed to wrath for their sins 1 Thess 5:9,10

9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Now if the wrath of God is coming on some for their sins, its reasonable to conclude that Christ did not die for their sins, and they were not included in the our sins of 1 Cor 15:3

3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

For God could not execute His wrath on them yet again ! Once in Christ as their sin bearer and then on them !

It would be unjust and unreasonable that God the Father would receive satisfaction to His Justice for the sins of men, and yet punish the same men for the same sins !! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right ? Gen 18:25, and yet the reprobate, confirmed unbelievers shall suffer eternally for all their sins, which is shown in Eph 5:6

Jn 3:36

36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

He that is not believing on the Son, shall[promise] not see life ! Its no future hope of them seeing life, they are confirmed in unbelief

They believe not because they cannot believe.

Jn 8:24

24I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

And they believe not because they are not of His Sheep Jn 10:26

26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

And He gave His Life for the sheep vs 15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

This shows the connection between believing and Christ death..



Matt 12:36

36But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

Ecc 12:14

14For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Jude 1:15

15To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

All their sins are considered breaches of the law of God as per 1 Tim 1:9-10

9Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

10For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

But for all that Christ died for, He was made a curse for them Gal 3:13

13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

For surely therefore, Christ did not present a satisfaction or propitiation unto the Fathers Justice for the sins of them who shall meet His Justice at the Judgment..

And those He died for are given the privilege to believe on His Name for His sake Phil 1:29

29For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

And because they were His Sheep Jn 10:26

26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Or Jesus can say " Ye believe" because ye are of my sheep, and I layed down my life for you...

beloved57
January 8th, 2011, 04:46 AM
So the death of Christ is that which causes or effects believing in Him as one of it's many fruits of accomplishment. Its through His Name [what He has done and accomplished] that some are believing and have remission of sins..

Acts 10:43

To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.[/U

Believing comes through His Name !

God through Christ is credited for ones believing..Thats why Paul Thanks God here 2 Thess 2:13

[B]13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord,[U] because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Belief of the Truth is believing in Christ who is The Truth..

Jn 3:14-16


14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The Lifting up of Christ [ His death on the cross] is the underling cause of those believing on Him...

Believing is never a condition for eternal life, but a effect and evidence of Christ death for one..

It is given to believe in Him who died for them Phil 1:29


29For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ[because of His death], not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Notice it is given to some to believe on Him..it was not offered them, but given as bestowed upon them to believe.

Given is aorist passive, so they received it because it was successfully given to them of God on Christ behalf..

So those who make believing on Christ a condition for receiving eternal life, do pervert the Truth, and steal that away from Christ which His death gives for His sake...

beloved57
January 10th, 2011, 03:25 AM
We know that Christ did not die for everyone without exception because of the efficaciousness of the results His death . His death actually perfects forever all those He died for !

Hebrews 10:14

14For by one offering [His death] he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Those who Christ offered Himself for in death, have been perfected forever and for this cause they shall be continuously being sanctified..

Its just impossible for Christ death not to produce this result..

thewordofgod
January 11th, 2011, 08:39 AM
Another popular Myth in the religious world today, is the Jesus Christ died or gave His Life for everyone in the world without exception, but the problem with that, is there is not one shred of scripture evidence that states that.

The scripture however does say that He died for His Sheep or His Church as per Jn 10:

11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

eph 5:

25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

His People Isa 53:

8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. cp Matt 1:21

Now, are all without exception His Sheep ? No

Are all without exception His Church ? No

Are all without exception His People ? No

For surely the seed of the serpent Gen 3:15 cannot be of His Sheep, His Church, or His People.

So why does the religous world proclaim that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception, when they have no scripture proof ? Because it is a Myth.

You haven't looked close enough in the scriptures to know that all God's created people are saved from their flesh. Here are a few scriptures you missed and there are many more of them.

0: To the choirmaster: with stringed instruments. A Psalm. A Song.
1: May God be gracious to us and bless us and make his face to shine upon us, [Selah]
2: that thy way may be known upon earth, thy saving power among all nations.
3: Let the peoples praise thee, O God; let all the peoples praise thee!
4: Let the nations be glad and sing for joy, for thou dost judge the peoples with equity and guide the nations upon earth. [Selah]
5: Let the peoples praise thee, O God; let all the peoples praise thee!
6: The earth has yielded its increase; God, our God, has blessed us.
7: God has blessed us; let all the ends of the earth fear him!


I Corinthians 3:
13: each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. The earth's crust will be melted soon and everything on it will be destroyed.
14: If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. The Word, who used the bodies of the prophets, Jesus and us saints, including God's living creation, will continue to live within God after this destruction but only the work of the prophets, Jesus and us saints will be saved because their work was retained in the Word.
15: If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.This verse shows that all people will be saved, even as a sinner who wasn't created as the Word.


I Corinthians 5:
1: It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and of a kind that is not found even among pagans; for a man is living with his father's wife.
2: And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you.
3: For though absent in body I am present in spirit, and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment
4: in the name of the Lord Jesus on the man who has done such a thing. When you are assembled, and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus,
5: you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. This verse clearly shows that sinners will be saved even after their flesh is killed.


Isaiah 45:
20: "Assemble yourselves and come, draw near together, you survivors of the nations! They have no knowledge who carry about their wooden idols, and keep on praying to a god that cannot save.
21: Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me.
22: "Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.
23: By myself I have sworn, from my mouth has gone forth in righteousness a word that shall not return: `To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.'
24: "Only in the LORD, it shall be said of me, are righteousness and strength; to him shall come and be ashamed, all who were incensed against him.
25: In the LORD all the offspring of Israel shall triumph and glory." Israel is the symbolic name for all God's people and the Remant of Israel are those of us created as the Word. We are also known as Judah, Two Sticks, The Holy Ones, The Elect, the Sheep, and many others. As you see, all the offspring of Israel shall triumph in salvation.


Titus 2
11: For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all men,


John 12
47: If any one hears my sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.


Isaiah 25: 6-9
6: On this mountain the LORD of hosts will make for all peoples a feast of fat things, a feast of wine on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wine on the lees well refined.
7: And he will destroy on this mountain the covering that is cast over all peoples, the veil that is spread over all nations.
8: He will swallow up death for ever, and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from all faces, and the reproach of his people he will take away from all the earth; for the LORD has spoken.
9: It will be said on that day, "Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, that he might save us. This is the LORD; we have waited for him; let us be glad and rejoice in his salvation." Through the Word, Isaiah wrote about the salvation of all people in these scriptures. Not just for one religion called Christianity.


Romans 14: 9-12
9: For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
10: Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of God;
11: for it is written, "As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God."
12: So each of us shall give account of himself to God. These scriptures are about all God's people who will be saved.



I Timothy 4:10
10: For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. Those who believe were created as the Word and lived in the flesh of the prophets, Jesus and us saints. We will reign in God's new world during the next age.


Micah 4:
6:[color=blue] In that day, says the LORD, I will assemble the lame and gather those who have been driven away, and those whom I have afflicted;
7: and the lame I will make the remnant; and those who were cast off, a strong nation; and the LORD will reign over them in Mount Zion from this time forth and for evermore. In verse 6, God is talking about all his people being gathered and the lame is the Remnant, those of us in the Word. The sinners will make a strong nation as they inhabit paradise in new immortal bodies. The Word will have new immortal bodies and reign over God's people from Mt. Zion, forever.


Psalms 22: 27-29
26: The afflicted shall eat and be satisfied; those who seek him shall praise the LORD! May your hearts live for ever!
27: All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to the LORD; and all the families of the nations shall worship before him.
28: For dominion belongs to the LORD, and he rules over the nations.
29: Yea, to him shall all the proud of the earth bow down; before him shall bow all who go down to the dust, and he who cannot keep himself alive. This verse shows that sinners are saved once they die in the flesh. The flesh cannot keep living during this age because of the limits God put on them. But his created men will live forever.


Isaiah 55: 5-7
5: Behold, you shall call nations that you know not, and nations that knew you not shall run to you, because of the LORD your God, and of the Holy One of Israel, for he has glorified you.
6: "Seek the LORD while he may be found, call upon him while he is near;
7: let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the LORD, that he may have mercy on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. These scriptures easily show all sinners being forgiven of their sins.


Isaiah 56: 6-8
6: "And the foreigners who join themselves to the LORD, to minister to him, to love the name of the LORD, and to be his servants, every one who keeps the sabbath, and does not profane it, and holds fast my covenant,
7: these I will bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer; their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples. These two verses reveal the Word who will be delivered into new adult immortal bodies on Mt. Zion to rule over God's people.
8: Thus says the Lord GOD, who gathers the outcasts of Israel, I will gather yet others to him besides those already gathered." This scripture shows that all sinners will be forgiven and live in paradise forever. Israel is all of God's people.


Acts 17: 24-31
24: The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in shrines made by man,
25: nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all men life and breath and everything.These verses point out to religions of man that have no value to God.
26: And he made from one every nation of men to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their habitation,
27: that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel after him and find him. Yet he is not far from each one of us,
28: for ..In him we live and move and have our being'; as even some of your poets have said, ..For we are indeed his offspring.' This verse shows how we live in God's heavenly existence and the flesh we move in.
29: Being then God's offspring, we ought not to think that the Deity is like gold, or silver, or stone, a representation by the art and imagination of man.
30: The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all men everywhere to repent,
31: because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and of this he has given assurance to all men by raising him from the dead."


Genesis 22:
15: And the angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time from heaven,
16: and said, "By myself I have sworn, says the LORD, because you have done this, and have not withheld your son, your only son,
17: I will indeed bless you, and I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore. And your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies,
18: and by your descendants shall all the nations of the earth bless themselves, because you have obeyed my voice." God didn't say anything about a religion of man. He said descendants of ALL nations will be blessed.


Zephaniah 3:
8: "Therefore wait for me," says the LORD, "for the day when I arise as a witness. For my decision is to gather nations, to assemble kingdoms, to pour out upon them my indignation, all the heat of my anger; for in the fire of my jealous wrath all the earth shall be consumed.
9: "Yea, at that time I will change the speech of the peoples to a pure speech, that all of them may call on the name of the LORD and serve him with one accord. These scriptures show the destruction at the end of this age that will destroy everything on earth. The last verse shows them living in paradise with a new language and they'll all know the true God.


John 12:
30: Jesus answered, "This voice has come for your sake, not for mine.
31: Now is the judgment of this world, now shall the ruler of this world be cast out; The ruler of this world is the sinful flesh of man called Satan. It has to be destroyed so all men can be saved to go to paradise and live forever in new bodies. You can see how God will draw all men to himself.
32: and I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."
33: He said this to show by what death he was to die. Jesus showed us that we had to die in the flesh so our created souls can live on with him into paradise where we'll live forever.


Habakkuk 3:
12: Thou didst bestride the earth in fury, thou didst trample the nations in anger.
13: Thou wentest forth for the salvation of thy people, for the salvation of thy anointed. Thou didst crush the head of the wicked, laying him bare from thigh to neck. This shows the sinners being saved and those of us in the Word, the anointed ones. Crushing the head of the wicked are when the sinful flesh dies. The whole Bible is about the sinful flesh being destroyed by the Word of God so that all God's living creation will be free to live in paradise.


Psalm 31:
23: Love the LORD, all you his saints! The LORD preserves the faithful, but abundantly requites him who acts haughtily. This shows those of us in the Word and the forgiveness of all sinners.


Isaiah 66:
22: "For as the new heavens and the new earth which I will make shall remain before me, says the LORD; so shall your descendants and your name remain.
23: From new moon to new moon, and from sabbath to sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, says the LORD.
24: "And they shall go forth and look on the dead bodies of the men that have rebelled against me; for their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh." These verses show two different flesh of man. The new flesh in paradise and the flesh that dies during this age. It says in verse 23 that ALL flesh will worship before the Lord. That's obviously not happening today in this age of sinfulness.


Ezekiel 37:
21: then say to them, Thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I will take the people of Israel from the nations among which they have gone, and will gather them from all sides, and bring them to their own land;
22: and I will make them one nation in the land, upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; and they shall be no longer two nations, and no longer divided into two kingdoms. These verses are about paradise when all God's people will be living together as one nation and the Word, the one King, will be the people who will rule the new Kingdom of God.
23: They shall not defile themselves any more with their idols and their detestable things, or with any of their transgressions; but I will save them from all the backslidings in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them; and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
24: "My servant David shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall follow my ordinances and be careful to observe my statutes.
25: They shall dwell in the land where your fathers dwelt that I gave to my servant Jacob; they and their children and their children's children shall dwell there for ever; and David my servant shall be their prince for ever. David is a symbolic name for the Word that all the prophets, Jesus and us saints were created as. We will be the prince forever.
26: I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; and I will bless them and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
27: My dwelling place shall be with them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
28: Then the nations will know that I the LORD sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary is in the midst of them for evermore." This verse is when we're living on the new earth called paradise. All God's people will live in paradise forever.


Ezekiel 39:
21: "And I will set my glory among the nations; and all the nations shall see my judgment which I have executed, and my hand which I have laid on them.
22: The house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God, from that day forward.
23: And the nations shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity, because they dealt so treacherously with me that I hid my face from them and gave them into the hand of their adversaries, and they all fell by the sword.
24: I dealt with them according to their uncleanness and their transgressions, and hid my face from them.
25: "Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: Now I will restore the fortunes of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel; and I will be jealous for my holy name.
26: They shall forget their shame, and all the treachery they have practiced against me, when they dwell securely in their land with none to make them afraid,
27: when I have brought them back from the peoples and gathered them from their enemies' lands, and through them have vindicated my holiness in the sight of many nations.
28: Then they shall know that I am the LORD their God because I sent them into exile among the nations, and then gathered them into their own land. I will leave none of them remaining among the nations any more;
29: and I will not hide my face any more from them, when I pour out my Spirit upon the house of Israel, says the Lord GOD." These scriptures are saying that all sinners are forgiven and will be living in paradise. There's nothing about man's religion in any of these scriptures of this writing. It's all about the created man being saved from his sinful flesh by God and then given a new flesh to live in paradise.


Daniel 12:
1: "At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time; but at that time your people shall be delivered, every one whose name shall be found written in the book. The book of life is all of God's created people but their flesh will be destroyed during this age. The Word is the most important during this age to gather knowledge to bring with to paradise. Even their flesh is mortal during this age so we all die.
2: And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. The sinners will have everlasting contempt because they won't have the knowledge of God like the Word does.
3: And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the firmament; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever.
4: But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase."


Micah 5:
7: Then the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many peoples like dew from the LORD, like showers upon the grass, which tarry not for men nor wait for the sons of men.
8: And the remnant of Jacob shall be among the nations, in the midst of many peoples, like a lion among the beasts of the forest, like a young lion among the flocks of sheep, which, when it goes through, treads down and tears in pieces, and there is none to deliver. These scriptures again, point to those of us people in the Word and the rest of God's people living in paradise.


Micah 7:
15: As in the days when you came out of the land of Egypt I will show them marvelous things.
16: The nations shall see and be ashamed of all their might[b]; they shall lay their hands on their mouths; their ears shall be deaf;
17: they shall lick the dust like a serpent, like the crawling things of the earth; they shall come trembling out of their strongholds, they shall turn in dread to the LORD our God, and they shall fear because of thee.
18: [b]Who is a God like thee, pardoning iniquity and passing over transgression for the remnant of his inheritance? He does not retain his anger for ever because he delights in steadfast love.
19: He will again have compassion upon us, he will tread our iniquities under foot. Thou wilt cast all our sins into the depths of the sea.
20: Thou wilt show faithfulness to Jacob and steadfast love to Abraham, as thou hast sworn to our fathers from the days of old.

beloved57
January 11th, 2011, 09:47 AM
theword:


You haven't looked close enough in the scriptures

You have no answer for the scriptures I just posted..

coulter4president
January 11th, 2011, 10:26 AM
coulter:



You can believe that lie if you want, but all for whom Christ died, they shall be made righteous rom 5:

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

sorry but you are making NO sense!

you say you dont believe and then you quote scripture that you do not then attempt to dispute..

so when i begin to half understand you, i will respond, i reckon...

beloved57
January 11th, 2011, 10:45 AM
couter:


sorry but you are making NO sense!

Maybe not to you, but that Christ shall make make many righteous by His death of obedience is simple for me to grasp..

rom 5:


19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

thewordofgod
January 11th, 2011, 01:15 PM
theword:



You have no answer for the scriptures I just posted..

You have no idea what the true gospel is so these verses you use are a way to avoid the truth in all these scriptures I gave you. We are all saved from our flesh when our flesh dies and our souls remain in God for eternity. We never leave God to live in the flesh. We're just using our earthly body to experience our created life in God. This first age was only meant for God's chosen ones to be used to reveal his knowledge. This knowledge is needed for us when we wake up in our new immortal bodies in the new earth. This knowledge will teach us new vocabulary words and language that we'll teach all the new people that are reborn into paradise. We will speak this one language of truth forever and ever.

BabyChristian
January 11th, 2011, 01:32 PM
Good thing I'm a speed non-reader, that was too long.

beloved57
January 12th, 2011, 04:06 AM
twog:


You have no idea what the true gospel is

You wouldnt know..

thewordofgod
January 12th, 2011, 06:37 AM
twog:



You wouldnt know..

The Jews and Roman and government who had Jesus and the other saints killed didn't know the gospel. The gospel is not some words out of a book that the Romans changed.

beloved57
January 12th, 2011, 07:08 AM
twg:


The Jews and Roman and government who had Jesus and the other saints killed didn't know the gospel.

Neither do you..

thewordofgod
January 12th, 2011, 07:17 AM
twg:



Neither do you..

What is the gospel you believe in since you're judging me with the wrong one?

beloved57
January 12th, 2011, 07:52 AM
twg:


What is the gospel you believe in

One you are ignorant to..

thewordofgod
January 12th, 2011, 08:03 AM
twg:



One you are ignorant to..

Here's what the true gospel is.

The gospel is the voice of God and also the spoken word. All throughout the Bible you can read about the voice of God, the word of God, the gospel of God or gospel of Jesus Christ. These are only names to describe something that only the prophets, Jesus and us saints have ever witnessed because we're the ones who speak for God. Everyone else is deaf and blind to the Word.


Here are scriptures to show that God's voice is described in different ways. These scriptures are from many different prophets and saints who were speaking for God when they wrote them.


Genesis 15
1: After these things the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision, "Fear not, Abram, I am your shield; your reward shall be very great."
2: But Abram said, "O Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, for I continue childless, and the heir of my house is Elie'zer of Damascus?"
3: And Abram said, "Behold, thou hast given me no offspring; and a slave born in my house will be my heir."
4: And behold, the word of the LORD came to him, "This man shall not be your heir; your own son shall be your heir."


Deuteronomy 28:
1: And if you obey the voice of the LORD your God, being careful to do all his commandments which I command you this day, the LORD your God will set you high above all the nations of the earth.
2: And all these blessings shall come upon you and overtake you, if you obey the voice of the LORD your God.
15: "But if you will not obey the voice of the LORD your God or be careful to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command you this day, then all these curses shall come upon you and overtake you.

Jeremiah 7:
23: But this command I gave them, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be my people; and walk in all the way that I command you, that it may be well with you.'
28: And you shall say to them, `This is the nation that did not obey the voice of the LORD their God, and did not accept discipline; truth has perished; it is cut off from their lips.

Exodus 19:
5: Now therefore, if you will obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my own possession among all peoples; for all the earth is mine,

Ezekiel 12
25: But I the LORD will speak the word which I will speak, and it will be performed. It will no longer be delayed, but in your days, O rebellious house, I will speak the word and perform it, says the Lord GOD."
26: Again the word of the LORD came to me:
27: "Son of man, behold, they of the house of Israel say, `The vision that he sees is for many days hence, and he prophesies of times far off.'
28: Therefore say to them, Thus says the Lord GOD: None of my word will be delayed any longer, but the word which I speak will be performed, says the Lord GOD."

Psalm 103
19: The LORD has established his throne in the heavens, and his kingdom rules over all.
20: Bless the LORD, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word!

Romans 10
8: But what does it say? The word is near you, on your lips and in your heart (that is, the word of faith which we preach);
15: And how can men preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach good news!"
16: But they have not all obeyed the gospel; for Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?"
17: So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ.
18: But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have; for "Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world."

Mark 1
14: Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God,
15: and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent, and believe in the gospel."

Mark 10
28: Peter began to say to him, "Lo, we have left everything and followed you."
29: Jesus said, "Truly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or lands, for my sake and for the gospel,
30: who will not receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions, and in the age to come eternal life.

1 Thessolonians 1
4: For we know, brethren beloved by God, that he has chosen you;
5: for our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction. You know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake.
6: And you became imitators of us and of the Lord, for you received the word in much affliction, with joy inspired by the Holy Spirit;

beloved57
January 12th, 2011, 08:40 AM
twg:


Here's what the true gospel is.

You are deceived and going on ignore..

thewordofgod
January 12th, 2011, 08:42 AM
twg:



You are deceived and going on ignore..

It's difficult to face the truth when you thought you knew something about God. Scriptures will deceive sinners who don't have the truth in them. All these scriptures I used show the true gospel is the voice of God and only Jesus and us saints were able to speak for him.

godrulz
January 12th, 2011, 11:56 AM
It's difficult to face the truth when you thought you knew something about God. Scriptures will deceive sinners who don't have the truth in them. All these scriptures I used show the true gospel is the voice of God and only Jesus and us saints were able to speak for him.

Who do you say God/Jesus is?

Do you affirm the trinity or reject it?

Is Jesus God Almighty in the flesh or is He a created being of some sort?

Which group do you affiliate with? Internet link for your beliefs?

Are you universalist, annihilationist?

I have nothing to hide, so feel free to ask my views on anything. Those who are vague or evasive are usually in divisive sects/cults.

beloved57
January 15th, 2011, 12:54 PM
All those that Christ died for are by that death reconciled to God and are assured of being saved by His Life ! per Rom 5:10

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

What can be more plainer than that ? So, if one is not saved, and goes into the lake of fire to be punished for their sins, then Christ death was not for them, its just that simple..

Ben Masada
January 15th, 2011, 01:19 PM
The myth of saying that Jesus died for all men is a myth alright. He himself would confirm my assertion as he prayed three times in the Gethsemani asking not to have to walk the via dolorosa. When he realized that he was wasting his time, he said, be Thy will done and NOT MINE. Not mine! Then, what was Jesus' will? Obviously, not to die for anyone. Therefore, the poor man was forced to the cross against his will. So, he did not die for anyone but for political reasons. No wonder Pilate nailed a plate on the top of his cross with the reason why he had been crucified. Because he was being proclaimed king of the Jews. Therefore, those stupid guys from among his followers who were proclaiming him king of the Jews were the ones responsible for his crucifixion. I like to watch TV evangelism. When I see the preachers talking about Jesus as king of the Jews, the first thing to come to my mind is that the same stupid guys are back to perpetuate the myth.

godrulz
January 15th, 2011, 01:35 PM
The myth of saying that Jesus died for all men is a myth alright. He himself would confirm my assertion as he prayed three times in the Gethsemani asking not to have to walk the via dolorosa. When he realized that he was wasting his time, he said, be Thy will done and NOT MINE. Not mine! Then, what was Jesus' will? Obviously, not to die for anyone. Therefore, the poor man was forced to the cross against his will. So, he did not die for anyone but for political reasons. No wonder Pilate nailed a plate on the top of his cross with the reason why he had been crucified. Because he was being proclaimed king of the Jews. Therefore, those stupid guys from among his followers who were proclaiming him king of the Jews were the ones responsible for his crucifixion. I like to watch TV evangelism. When I see the preachers talking about Jesus as king of the Jews, the first thing to come to my mind is that the same stupid guys are back to perpetuate the myth.

Jn. 1:29

Jn. 5:39-40 (you are ignorant of your own Scriptures)

I Cor. 15 The Deity and resurrection of Christ validate His claims to be the sinless Savior that you seek.

Phil. 2:5-11; Jn. 1:1; Isaiah 9:6 with Isaiah 10:21

beloved57
January 15th, 2011, 03:36 PM
Still looking at Rom 5:10 , If a person has been reconciled to God by the death of His Son, then that ensures one for whom Christ died shall be a believer !

One cannot be reconciled to God and continue their whole life as a unbeliever

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

. Now according to Rom 5:10 what reconciles one to God ?

A. Their Faith

b.Their repentnace

c. The Death of God's Son

Ben Masada
January 15th, 2011, 03:52 PM
Jn. 1:29

Jn. 5:39-40 (you are ignorant of your own Scriptures)

I Cor. 15 The Deity and resurrection of Christ validate His claims to be the sinless Savior that you seek.

Phil. 2:5-11; Jn. 1:1; Isaiah 9:6 with Isaiah 10:21


First of all, the NT is not my Scriptures. Second, Jesus was a Jewish man and not a Greek demigod. So, he was not deity. Third, you can not show even a single eyewitness to his resurrection. Fourth, he could never claim to be sinless, because he broke the Golden Rule more than several times. This law states that we should not do unto others what we would not like they did unto us. Jesus whipped the moneychangers and caused them financial damages. I wonder if he was reminded of the fact when he was being whipped by the Romans.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Mystery of the Empty Tomb


All the four gospel writers are unanimous on it that the tomb was empty. But how it got empty is the answer we have got to find for the question.

Starting with Matthew, at the end of that Sabbath, which in Israel is at the sunset, Mary Magdalene with another Mary, went to see the tomb. Never mind that the tombstone was sealed and the guards were there to prevent the approach of any suspect. They either did not know it or the conspiracy to provide an eyewitness had backfired.

As the women arrived there, there was nothing of the sort. However, the writer of Matthew reports an earthquake, as an angel came down to move the tombstone, and sat on it. Who was inside the tomb? Nobody. The tomb was empty. Then, the angel addressed the women and said, "I know you are looking for Jesus. As you can see, he is not here." The tomb was empty. Even the angel could not be used as an eyewitness, because when he removed the tombstone, the tomb was empty already. (Mat. 28:1-6)

Let us ask Mark about this. He says almost the same, except for the earthquake. When that Sabbath was over, the women brought perfumed oils to anoint Jesus' body. They were worried only on how to remove the tombstone, which was huge. Never mind that it was sealed and kept by guards, because when they got there, they saw nothing of the sort. So much so that the stone was already removed and the tomb was empty, except for a youngman who was there, telling them that Jesus was not there. That he had been raised. He was right, because by the will of God one rises, but by the will of man one is raised. It means that someone had indeed removed Jesus from there. (Mark 16:1-6)

How about Luke? What did he have to say? That the tombstone was removed, the tomb was empty, but there were two guys asking why the women were looking for the living among the dead. And that Jesus had been raised. Mind you, not risen but raised. The women went to tell the disciples, and they refused to believe their "nonsense and idle tale," as those were their very words. Probably, Jesus had never mentioned such a thing about himself. (Luke 24:1-11)

Last but not least, we have John, who brought to the tomb only Mary Magdalene. The tombstone was removed as usual, and the tomb was indeed empty. All that Mary could think of, was that Jesus had been taken from the tomb. They all probably had never heard about resurrection. Mary remained at the tomb crying her eyes out. Then, to a guy there, whom she thought was the Gardener, she asked to let her know where he had put Jesus' body, so that she could take it away with her, if he had been the one who had removed Jesus from there. It means that Mary had come to the tomb with the intention to remove Jesus from there. Bad luck for her, because obviously Joseph of Arimathea had done the removal during the first hours of Friday night. (John 20:1-15)

As we all can see, the mystery is not in the empty tomb but in the how the tomb got empty. Quite easy to solve if we try to understand the difference between rising and being raised, and the inconsistency among the four gospel writers on reporting the "idle tale" of the resurrection. (Luke 24:11)

Ben

godrulz
January 15th, 2011, 05:34 PM
There is no inconsistency in the Gospel accounts, just different perspective and details. We can answer atheists and Jews with the same truths from Scripture. The NT is Scripture whether you recognize it or not. It is accurate historical narrative and records hundreds of witnesses of His resurrection.

The anti-resurrection theories of Muslims, skeptics, Jews, etc. have been refuted.

beloved57
January 20th, 2011, 08:43 AM
Four Petitions Christ Prays to the Father for those He died for !

Another reason its fiction that Christ died for everyone without exception, is because of specific petitions to the Father for those He died for that most certainly have had a favorable answer or reply from His Father..

#1 He prays that there will be those who shall believe in Him, that those whom He offered Himself for shall believe in Him through the word of His Apostles Jn 17:22

20Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Notice, they shall believe on Him , not maybe or hope so, but that they shall believe..its future tense, but its most surely will happen as an answer to His Prayer..

# 2 He prays for those who believe that their Faith fail not Lk 22:32

32But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

His Brethren would have been given the same like precious Faith as He, which is confirmed in 2 Pet 1:1

1Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

Hence, they obtained it, it was not of themselves...and would not Christ have the same desire and concern for their Faith not failing as He did for Peter in this instance ? Why, the very reason for Christ intercession for peter was for the benefit of others in the same household of Faith..

#3 He prays that all He died for shall have a comforter given them forever Jn 14:16

16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

The world in genral cannot receive this gift Jn 14:17

Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

The world which he prayed not for is in view here Jn 17:9

I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

#4 He Prays that they [all for whom He died] be with Him where He is and behold His Glory Jn 17:24

Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

The they means all for whom The Father hath given the Son, and again to dispel the notion that its limited to the apostles, vs 20 neither pray I for these alone !

1 Thess 4:15-17
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.


16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

If one for whom Christ died, perishes in their sins, Christ petitions were failed of answer from the Father..

beloved57
January 22nd, 2011, 01:23 AM
All those Christ died for was for the purpose of them obtaining salvation, that whether they sleep or awake they shall be with Him..

1 Thess 5:9-10


9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

If this end of Christ death is not obtained for all Christ died for, His death was a miserable failure to them, it could not save them..

This is what those are saying who believe and preach that Christ death was for some who have been appointed to wrath or who is going to hear these words :

Matt 7:23


23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
or

Matt 25:41


41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

beloved57
January 23rd, 2011, 11:51 PM
Its a fact that Christ did not die for everyone without exception, because His death gathers together into one, because its efficacious !

Jn 11:49-52


49And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,

50Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

51And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

52And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

Lets look at the word gather ! Its the greek word synagō and means:


to gather together, to gather

a) to draw together, collect

1) of fishes

2) of a net in which they are caught

2) to bring together, assemble, collect

a) to join together, join in one (those previously separated)

This gathering is a key element in the efficaciousness of the death of Christ for the people of God, for it gathers in the people of God, the children of God, that is, all thew children of God who went astray and alienated in Adam, the Son of God Lk 3:38

38Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

Note, Adam was a Child of God by creation, and the messiah was promised to be of his seed Gen 3:15 and this is confirmed with this lukean account of His genealogy by the flesh..

Now, Christ death does not make this gathering or reconciling only possible to God, as some falsely teach, but it actually brings or gathers us [ Gods children] to God..

Lets look at 1 Pet 3:18

18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring [gather] us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Here Peter specifies the purpose of Christ death [suffered for sins] in order that He might bring us to God, the condition has been met by Christ death to effect the purpose..

This is a key Truth in the value and accomplishment of the death of Christ, that the substitutionary atonement of Christ, He the righteous or Just being put to death in place of the unjust was in order to bring them to God.

Jesus expressed the same purpose for His death when He spoke these words Jn 10:16

16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:[B] them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

The word bring here has the same root word as gather in Jn 11:52 ago which means to lead or to move, impel: of forces and influences on the mind

He states this after declaring in vs 11 & 15 that He lays down His Life for his sheep..

That other Sheep I have [ other than jewish sheep] and them too I must bring or gather, same connotation as Jn 11:52

52And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

Yes, His Death has gathering power.

beloved57
January 24th, 2011, 09:32 AM
The Death of Christ Gathers !

That other Sheep I have [ other than jewish sheep] and them too I must bring or gather, same connotation as Jn 11:52

52And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

Yes, His Death has gathering power...

The end of Christ death is to Gather into one The Children of God, or the Children of Promise Rom 9:8.

So the death of Christ in and of itself [no help from man] Gathers in or brings to God, all for whom He died. He brings them to Glory, for thats the stated purpose Heb 2:10


10For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

It is they who by His death shall be made righteous as per Rom 5:19b

so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

The obedience here means His death or His cross Phil 2:8

8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

beloved57
January 28th, 2011, 06:11 AM
Romans 9:27


27Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

The word remnant is the greek word hypoleimma and means remains

That means it is equivalent to a few, or a small part..it's made up of the root word kataleipo meaning:


to leave behind

a) to depart from, leave

1) to be left

b) to bid (one) to remain

c) to forsake, leave to one's self a person or thing by ceasing to care for it, to abandon, leave in the lurch

1) to be abandoned, forsaken

d) to cause to be left over, to reserve, to leave remaining


It has never been God's purpose, desire, or will to save all mankind without a exception, even as it was not with Israel, but only a portion.


Jesus reaffirms this idea in His words Matt 7:13

13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Jesus could say this and mean it, for He is the life and the way to life, and He is the one who must find us for that Life..

Lk 15:4-5

4What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

5And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.

Jn 10:10

10The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they [His Sheep] might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

He came to save the remnant of mankind that were of His Sheep, whether of the jews or gentiles.

The remnant are those He particularly reserves for Himself as Illustrated in Rom 11:4-5

4But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Notice, He says a remnant that I have reserved for myself, that is God is quite active in this reserving for Himself. The word for reserve is the same word earlier that was the root word for remnant..

God reserves for Himself a remnant of mankind from Idolatry, or baal worship and worship of the beast in the last days Rev 13:8


8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The remnant that does not worship the beast are those whose names were written in the book of life of the lamb slain from the foundation of the world, corresponding to the reserved in Israel of old who were kept back from baal worship, who were of the election of grace..

This was due to the Lamb slain from the foundation, the cross work of Jesus Christ, for this goes to prove the scope and intention of His death and its effects amongst mankind.

Why would Christ die for any who were not written in His book of life before the foundation ?

Why would God save by Grace, whom He did not chooses in the election of Grace ? Those He did not choose are called the rest Rom 11:7

7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

The rest are also a remnant ! So God purposed that there would be a remnant of mankind that are to be blinded..

Its in the passive voice, were hardened, by the purpose and power of God, were hardened !

Those outside of the election of grace, not written in the lambs book of life, Christ did not die for, hence its only a myth that Christ died for all men without exception, for He died only for that remnant that shall be saved..

beloved57
January 29th, 2011, 10:51 AM
The religious world does not have the slightest idea of what the bible teaches about the death of Christ for sinners that where dead in sin. The concept is that Christ redeeming death only makes the remedy of sin a possibility of which the dead sinner must put their finishing touches on it in order that it is made a saving experience. If man does not believe, or if man does not repent or be baptized ect, then Christ death will not save you..

But the death of Christ alone actually saves a sinner, and since its obvious that all sinners are not saved by it, then it was not for all sinners, but a chosen few.

Christ death is so efficacious that it effects or begets a new life unto God, for those He died for:

2 Cor 5:14-15


14For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.


This is because, He being their head, and they his body, His death unto sin was their death unto sin [see Rom 6:10]

And as His death destroyed the power of death Heb 2:14 and sin, this also ends their spiritual death and power to sin, ending their old life of alienation from God, and redeeming them unto a people zealous of Good Works Titus 2:14

who gave himself for us[His death], that[purpose] he might redeem us from all iniquity[Unbelief included], and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

You see His death both redeems and purifies those He died for, that was the purpose of His death, not to die and wait and see who would accept it.

But it [His death] actually effects a new life unto Himself and unto God the Father..

Now does this occur for those who shall yet hear these words Matt 7:23


23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Then Christ death was not for them, because as seen in Titus 2:14 His death redeems from all iniquity.

beloved57
January 29th, 2011, 02:33 PM
Romans 9:27


27Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

That only a remnant shall be saved is that which has always characterizes God's Saving Purposes..

It was so of Israel of old, and True of the world today.

It was True from the beginning of time when God spake theses words unto the serpent:

Gen 3:14-15

14And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Yes, there is the division of the seed of the women [ The Godly] and the seed of the serpent [ the reprobated ]..

This was confirmed in the births of the first two children of Adam and Eve, one of them belonged to the Godly seed of the women, the other of the wicked one..

As time went on, we see the destruction of the first world by water, a flood, and we have it even more plainly Illustrated that God's saving purpose was limited to a small remnant, Noah and his family, which consisted in eight people 1 Pet 3:20

Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

That few was a remnant from the rest that God purposed to destroy by the flood.

beloved57
January 30th, 2011, 10:08 PM
Heb 7:22

22By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

Christ was not a surety for all mankind without exception, but for those the Father gave Him. We can only understand His death and what it meant, as we look at it from His suretyship !

Christ is our [ The elect or believer] surety because, He was given our obligations and debts, leaving us free from them, this is why we are Justified before God the righteous Judge from the foundation, because He was slain [in the Divine Purpose] for our sins debts that had been laid upon Him onto His account, from the foundation Rev 13:8


8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The word slain here is in the perfect tense in the greek ! Which denotes a completed act once and for all in the past with results abiding into the future..

And John was speaking from the aspect of from the foundation, this past action took place, and not his immediate personal past..

So, if Christ in the Purpose of God, was slain from the foundation, then it was for our sins that He was slain, our surety, and this being so, even then we were Justified from the charges of our sins, we are free from condemnation of them, because Christ had been made a surety for them. Whenever God purposed not to impute our sins on us [ The elect] in order to impute them unto our surety, that was our Justification before Him Rom 8:33-34


33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died[slain from the foundation], yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Christ had [from the foundation] obligated Himself as Surety, to redeem all for whom He would die, this before they were born sinners in the world. God knew all of our sins before time, and so was able to impute them on Christ when He became surety for them.

Dr Bob Gonzales
January 30th, 2011, 10:57 PM
The gospel Paul preached to the Corinthians seemed to include the affirmation that Jesus "died for our sins." That's part of the content of what the Corinthians believed resulting in their salvation (1 Cor. 15:1-4). It would seem to follow, therefore, that in some sense Jesus died for the sins of fallen humanity as a whole and that this proposition forms part of the content of the good news (cf. John 3:16). Of course, affirming such doesn't preclude a particular and limited design for the atonement. It simply requires us to equivocate in our definitions of the scope of the atonement.

beloved57
January 31st, 2011, 05:52 AM
dr p:


The gospel Paul preached to the Corinthians seemed to include the affirmation that Jesus "died for our sins."

Yes, who did he mean when he said our sins ?

Paul was chosen which he knew acts 9:15

But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:


acts 22:14


And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.

When writing to the Corinth's in chpt 1 paul writes vs27

But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

So, when paul says our sins, whom he Identified with, he was referring to the sins of the chosen or the the called..

1 cor 1:


Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:

vs9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.


24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

So thats whom He had reference to when He stated that Christ died for our sins..

The called, chosen, and faithful..rev 17:14


These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

It would had been different if Paul would have wrote " that christ died for everyones sins in the world according to the scripture "

But thats not what he wrote...

beloved57
January 31st, 2011, 06:35 AM
He died as a Surety ! cont

The OT Saints were conscious of the suretyship of the Lord Jesus Christ as well and at times prayed for a application of it's benefits to them, and thus receive those benefits consciously !

Job 19:25


25For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: This is referring to Christ !

Ps 119:122

122Be surety for thy servant for good: let not the proud oppress me.


Isa 38:14

14Like a crane or a swallow, so did I chatter: I did mourn as a dove: mine eyes fail with looking upward: O LORD, I am oppressed; undertake for me.

Ps 103:10-12

10He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities.

11For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him.

12As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

Yes, Christ suretyship has always been the foundation for the sins of God's people being imputed to Him and His righteousness imputed to them..

2 Cor 5:21

21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. He was made a sin offering for us because of His vowed suretyship..

Heb 7:20-22

20And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:

21(For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec )

22By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

beloved57
February 1st, 2011, 12:56 AM
Now if we look at a portion of Truth in Philemon, we will learn something of Christ surety ship for those He died for. For Christ paid in full our sin debt as Surety, and Paul's example Philemon 1:18 If he hath wronged thee, or oweth thee ought, put that on mine account;

That Illustrates How Christ voluntarily took upon Himself the sin debt for God's People, He says I will repay it, and thats what Christ did for God's elect, His brethren. Now the only thing needed for this to be a success, in onesimus case, was for Philemon to accept Paul's Offering in behalf of onesimus, for onesimus did not have to believe, accept or anything like that we do, If Christ received confirmation from the Father that He accepted His surety ship on our behalf, and that confirmation was given on the resurrection morning, for He was raised [as our surety] for our Justification Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for [because of] our offences, and was raised again for [because of] our justification.

Now we receive the good news of this Justification by our surety through the Gospel of our salvation Eph 1:13. The success of Christ surety ship does not depend on what we do, but on what He did, and The Father accepted, and which sped well with the Father Isa 53:10

10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Hence, those who are teaching that finding forgiveness with God is based on something we do, we believe or etc, are guilty of perverting the righteousness of God, and disregards the Blood of Christ and its accomplishment..

beloved57
February 1st, 2011, 11:50 PM
Now exactly what is the Suretyship that Christ paid for His Beloved Bride, the Church or His Sheep ?

Christ as their surety paid the debt of obedience to the Law of God, notice whats on His Mind as He is about to come into the world Heb 10:7-9


7Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

8Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

9Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Ps 40:8 adds:

I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.

and Romans 2:13

13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Believe it or not, this scripture, by free grace is applied to all for whom Christ acted as a Surety for. Now because of Him they are in God's sight doers of the Law, and shall be Justified in the last day..

Even when born wretched sinners by nature, God views those whom Christ died for, as doers of the Law and Justified in His sight, for Jesus sake...

beloved57
February 3rd, 2011, 01:15 AM
Christ as the Surety for God's chosen people paid in full the debt of punishment for their sins, as they were lawbreakers by nature, hence Isa 53:6,8

6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

1 Cor 15:3

3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

2 Cor 5:21

21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Rom 4:25

25Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Hence Christ paid the debt of punishment incurred by their sins, which includes the curse of the Law, for the law gives sin its strength 1 Cor 15:56

56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

Which brings the curse Gal 3:10,13


10For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.


So because He was their surety, He by taking their transgressions opon Himself became accyrsed, a law breaker for them vs

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

beloved57
February 3rd, 2011, 10:11 AM
Suretyship cont

Now by paying both of these debts as surety, that is the debt of obedience to God's Holy Law, and the debt of Punishment for a violated Law, Christ as Surety has fulfilled for His People the whole righteousness of the Law, for He was their Head and they were His body, so He is the Saviour of His Body eph 5:

23For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the Saviour of the body.

The Head is the Legal Surety for His Body..

Christ Surety-Ship does not stop there, but it also requires him to bring the many sons to Glory Heb 2:10

10For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

As seen here, His Sufferings [death] is inseparably linked with bringing many sons to Glory..

This was typified in the OT scriptures with Judah in regards to his younger brother Benjamin Gen 43:9

9I will be surety for him; of my hand shalt thou require him: if I bring him not unto thee, and set him before thee, then let me bear the blame for ever:

Thats what Christ's Suretyship ensures, it brings those beloved of God to Him, to Glory !

Gen 44:32

32 For thy servant became surety for the lad unto my father, saying, If I bring him not unto thee, then I shall bear the blame to my father for ever.

You see, Jesus Christ as Surety for God's People, those given to Him by the Father in the covenant of redemption Jn 6:37,39

37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. [ They will be brought to Glory]

39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

If He does not successfully bring all to Glory whom God would have saved and come into a knowledge of the Truth [ 1 Tim 2:4] and present every last one of them before the Father with Joy, He is to be Blamed forever !

Those who teach a false gospel and a false concept of Christ death and surety ship, they say that one whom Christ died for, was made a surety for, if they perish, its their own fault, but that evil philosophy goes against and is contrary to the Truth of Christ Surety-Ship Heb 7:22

22 By so much [B]was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

beloved57
February 8th, 2011, 11:31 AM
That Christ did not die for all men without exception is seen in the content of the Gospel that Paul preached, of which he said also, if anyone preaches one differently, let them be accursed..

1 Cor 15:3

3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

When and where did paul receive this Gospel ?

Now this verse of the Gospel declares clearly a definite and particular redemption or that Christ died for a definite people according to scriptures, which are the OT scriptures, for they were about Him notice:

Jn 5:39

Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Lk 24:26-27

26Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

27And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

And one of the ways the scriptures testify of Christ is through the OT types, of which did shadow forth Particular redemption for a definite people, and not for all men without exception..

Now lets look at the passover lambs Ex 12, that this event was a type is made clear by this scripture 1 Cor 5:7


7Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: Who is us ? The same as the Our sins in 1 Cor 15:3

Also, we this passover being a type of Christ as to the directions given in Ex 12:46

46In one house shall it be eaten; thou shalt not carry forth ought of the flesh abroad out of the house; neither shall ye break a bone thereof.

Applied to Christ here Jn 19:36

36For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.

Also Ps 34:20 can be applied ..

So from these it's seen how Jesus death [in minute detail] was according to and fulfilled scripture. This appointment of the passover gives us to know, that the Israelites, in and of themselves were also considered equally sinful before God, and so even God's elect, are by Nature wrathful children even as others Eph 2:3

The sacrifice of the Lambs signified Two things, atonement for sin or a covering up and redemption [ redemption from the plague of death of the firstborn] and so was a suitable type of the work of Christ, and so it was in peters mind too 1 Pet 1:18-20

18Forasmuch as ye [Elect see vs 1-2] know that ye [elect] were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

This is true to the type of the passover as we shall see next.

beloved57
February 9th, 2011, 09:32 AM
Now Peter clearly applies this [passover] to Christ in that he speaks of Christ as being a Lamb without blemish, as the passover lamb was required to be; also being foreordained before the foundation of the world, showing that the design of the type was to set that fact forth, for the lamb was to be taken out on the 10th day of the month and kept until the 14th day ex 12:


3Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house:

4And if the household be too little for the lamb, let him and his neighbour next unto his house take it according to the number of the souls; every man according to his eating shall make your count for the lamb.

5Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:

6And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.

The type is this, The 10th day indicating the foreordination or being setup before the foundation of the world, and the 11th -14th days representing the four thousand years before the coming of Christ, being slain in the evening of the 14th day [see heb 9:26] and so He has been sacrificed in the close of that period.

Now, in this type there is no indication of unlimited atonement or a general provision for all people without exception, but it was particular in its provision as in its application, for it was appointed alone for the Families of Israel; while the egyptians were left exposed to the plague. Now could this type in any way more point to a particular and definite atonement ? So Again, Paul's Gospel is " That Christ died for our sins according to scripture " !

beloved57
February 11th, 2011, 06:20 PM
Again, I am showing what paul means in 1 Cor 15:3 when He stated how Christ died for our sins according to scripture, and we have been looking at the OT scriptures as types foreshadowing Christ death, and that the types only applied to a distinct people, Israel and not all men without exception.

We will look at the Day of Atonement for more instruction on how Christ died for sins according to scripture and how it points to a limited atonement for a specific chosen people.. see Lev 16.

The Atonement that was made yearly was typical or a figure of the eternal redemption which Christ once and for all obtained for His People [see Matt 1:21]

Heb 7 shows us that Christ was a High Priest, and that of an Higher order than that of the Aaronic priesthood, He being of the order of Melchisedec, yet it is still evident from what is stated of Christ blood and its contrast with the offerings of the High Priest under the law, that they were typical of His Priesthood, for we have no record of Melchisdec offering sacrifices. See Heb 5:1-5; 8:1-6

Now, the High Priest in performing this most sacred function, that is to enter into the Most Holy Place, within the veil, and that only once a year, and that without having blood Lev 16:1-2 cp Heb 9:1-7.

Now in order for this to be done according to Divine Standard, officiating as High Priest, Aaron and after him His son, must be consecrated see Ex 28-29; Lev 8:1-12 also cp Jn 17:19 !

To be consecrated he [Aaron] had to wear the holy clothing or garments, among which was the ephod having two precious stones engraven with the names of the Twelve tribes of Israel, six on each stone, fastened in the two shoulder pieces, in order that he would bear their names upon his shoulders for a memorial. see Ex 39:7 Also was the breast plate containing twelve precious stones, engraven with the names of the twelve tribes of Israel " That Aaron should bear their names in the breastplate of judgment upon his heart, when he goeth into the Holy Place for a memorial before the Lord continually, thus showing that in this sacred work of atonement, and as High Priest, in going into the Holy Place, He represented ONLY the Twelve Tribes of Israel, as a chosen and designated people, and no others..

All other peoples were excluded from the day of atonement, the egyptians, and all other people groups.

This day of atonement typified Christ as officiating as the High Priest of God's chosen People, in making an atonement in behalf of a designated people known by name as per Jn 10:3


3To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

These He bears upon His Heart as the objects of His Love Eph 5:25; Rom 5:8; and Jn 13:1

It was a specific people after offering of Himself, He went to appear before God for us Heb 9:24

For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

Note for us, not everybody or anybody, but for us a foreknown and loved people, His Church/Bride Chosen in Him before the foundation...

So again, we have another meaning to what paul meant when He spake of the gospel and said " how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;"

beloved57
February 12th, 2011, 09:35 AM
The Lie that God desires the Salvation of all men without exception !

There is a bigger falsehood than that of God desiring the salvation of all men without exception. This falsehood is derived from from a false interpretation of 1 Tim 2:4

4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

First of all, its impossible for the Almighty God to desire or want anything and it not be done by Him Job 23:13

13But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.

Now, the word desireth here is the hebrew word avah and means:

desire, incline, covet, wait longingly, wish, sigh, want, be greedy, prefer

So if God in 1 Tim 2:4 wants or wishes all men without exception to be saved, then He would save them, simple as that..

Now even the very thoughts of His heart are accomplished forever Ps 33:11

11The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations.

Certainly those who He wants to be saved He has thoughts for in His Heart, surely He loves them !

False religionists have made the Only Sovereign and His desires, which are Eternal and Holy subservient to His creatures will, mere dust of the earth, who are less than nothing, what Blasphemy...

Next, all those God desires salvation for, He has put in the responsibility of His Son's hands, The Lord Jesus Christ, For Jesus says that His purpose for coming was to seek and to save that which was lost Lk 19:10

10For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

Now, are those Jesus is referring to in this verse, the same the as the ones God wants to be saved in 1 Tim 2:4 ?

Yes, of course it is, and if He does not #1 seek them out and #2 save them from their lost condition, then He is a Failure of the expectations of His Father, for Him being sent in to the world.

In connection with this Jesus tells us what the Father's will is for Him to do Jn 6:38-39

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Now, are these the same as those God wants to be saved in 1 Tim 2:4 ? Of course they are, only a fool would deny that, and so again we see more evidence, that the Father expects the Son to save and loose not one that the Father wants to be saved. Again, are the ones the Father desires to be saved and come into the knowledge of the Truth as per 1 Tim 2 4, are they they same as the ones being referenced in the passage Jn 6:38-39; Lk 19:10, yes they are, and if one of them is not saved and lost, Christ has disappointed the expectations of His Father's will for Him to accomplish.. So for all of you who like to present this verse 1 Tim 2:4 as God desiring all men without exception to be saved and to come into the Knowledge of the Truth, if just one of them is Lost, you are charging Christ with Failure in doing and accomplishing the will of The Father, that He is suppose to accomplish, He failed, no way around it. The Father also looks like a fool for trusting Christ to accomplish something that He failed to accomplish..

beloved57
February 12th, 2011, 09:56 PM
New Testament scriptures that indicate the specific purpose of Christ death being for a specific people and not all men without exception !

Matt 1:21


21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Here from an Angel above the special purpose of Christ coming into the world was declared, That He would be manifested as a Saviour in that " For He shall His People from their sins ", hence a special people, the antitype of National Israel, a people He already knew as His own, that are to be saved. Nothing in this declaration warrants a the idea of a general salvation, which is not a salvation at all unless people make it so themselves, delivering their ownselves from their sins.

Note that the statement is positive " He shall save His People " and save them from their sins; and His name is Jesus, or Saviour [Thats what a Saviour does, save from sin] Because He shall save this special chosen people from their sins and shew them [experientially] His salvation.

Hence, anyone saying that Jesus Christ becomes a Saviour by something they do, totally disregards the purpose of God set forth in this scripture.

beloved57
February 13th, 2011, 10:29 PM
New Testament scriptures that indicate the specific purpose of Christ death being for a specific people and not all men without exception !

More scripture proving the particularity of the atonement Jn 10:15

15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

This statement is against any Idea that His death was a mere provision for all without exception, for that must be assumed..

These were His Sheep given to Him of the Father Jn 10:14

14I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

He knows them even as sinners Lk 15:4-7


4What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

5And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.

6And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.

7I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Jn 10:16,29

16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

These were gentile sheep He had, but they had not believed..

29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

These sinful sheep had been given to Christ that He may lay down His Life for them..

Not the goats.. Men are either by nature, sinful sheep or sinful goats. Christ died for His sinful Sheep only..

beloved57
February 18th, 2011, 08:58 PM
Did Christ die for the purpose of actually saving sinners, or did He only die to make sinners saveable?

How one answers this question, and what they really believe about the Purpose of Christ death, determines if they believe a False Gospel or the True Gospel.

What does the scripture state and indicate as to the purpose of Christ death ?

Christ came to save that which was lost: Matthew 18:11; Luke 19:10

Matt 18:11

11For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

Lk 19:10

10For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

In both scriptures " to save" is the greek infinitive, meaning the stating of a purpose or result.

In other words, the end result for His coming was to save certain sinners, and if He did not save all The Father wanted saved, He has failed His purpose for coming..

Just coming to make them savable was not enough and fell short of the Divine Purpose..

Pierac
February 18th, 2011, 10:40 PM
The wages of sin is what?

1. death

2. eternal torment

3. spanking

If you answered anything except #1 you need to go back and read your scriptures. As Jesus died for your sins! Jesus is not suffering eternal torment for you nor did He receive a spanking! :rolleyes:

Jesus gave you a right to a resurrection from the dead! He paid the price!


Paul

godrulz
February 18th, 2011, 11:49 PM
The wages of sin is what?

1. death

2. eternal torment

3. spanking

If you answered anything except #1 you need to go back and read your scriptures. As Jesus died for your sins! Jesus is not suffering eternal torment for you nor did He receive a spanking! :rolleyes:

Jesus gave you a right to a resurrection from the dead! He paid the price!


Paul

Death is separation, not cessation, in Scripture. Eternal death is everlasting, relational separation from God (conscious).

beloved57
February 19th, 2011, 08:16 AM
pie:


Jesus gave you a right to a resurrection from the dead! He paid the price!

Is that all your jesus did ? he merely gave those he died for a right to the resurrection of the dead ?

The Jesus Christ I serve, by His resurrection, He gives all that He died for a resurrection. They are born again spiritually by His resurrection in this life 1 pet 1:

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

And He ensures that we will be raised up in the Last day Jn 6:39


And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Ben Masada
February 19th, 2011, 08:45 AM
The wages of sin is what?

1. death

2. eternal torment

3. spanking

If you answered anything except #1 you need to go back and read your scriptures. As Jesus died for your sins! Jesus is not suffering eternal torment for you nor did He receive a spanking! :rolleyes:

Jesus gave you a right to a resurrection from the dead! He paid the price!


Paul


I read the Scriptures and foud out that te closest to the wages of sin is #3. Spanking in the proportion according to the transgression. Death cannot be because the sinless also dies. Therefore, one dies because he was born, not because he committed a sin. And it cannot
be eternal torment because there is nothing eternal about man but death, from which a man will never return. (Job 10:21)

Ben Masada
February 19th, 2011, 08:53 AM
Did Christ die for the purpose of actually saving sinners, or did He only die to make sinners saveable?

..


Neither. The reason why Jesus died was written on that plate Pilate nailed on the top of his cross. Because some jerks were proclaiming him king of the Jews in public at the entrance to Jerusalem. When sometimes I am watching TV evangelism and listen to the modern jerks proclaim that Jesus is king of the Jews, I am reminded that the responsibles for Jesus' death are back.

beloved57
February 19th, 2011, 04:29 PM
Christ's purpose was to save and not to merely make salvation possible, those teaching such are preaching another gospel. This is important because it also speaks to the extent and purpose of Christ death, because He died for many as He came to save. This will also prove, scripturally that universal atonement is a lie.

We have looked at Two scriptures earlier stating Christ purpose was to save !

Matt 18:11

11For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

Lk 19:10

10For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

Lets look another scripture stating Christ purpose for coming into the world !

1 Tim 1:15

This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Again, the inspired testimony is not that He came into the world to make sinners savable, to give them a chance to get saved, all that is false teaching, but He came to save.

You see how He saved Paul ? Read acts 9, there is nothing in that record that gives the slightest hint that paul was offered to be saved, given a chance or choice to be saved, and all that foolishness of antichrist teaching, but paul was saved, and made a believer in Christ, and so was his experience given as a pattern on how Christ saves sinners, here his Testimony 1 Tim 1:15

15This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

16Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.


You see, that, we have in the conversion experience of Paul a pattern on How Christ turns sinners into believers by His Power and Grace..

Yes, He came into the world to save sinners, but not all sinners without exception, but the ones He came to save, shall be saved to the Glory of God and His Grace..

yankeedoodled
February 21st, 2011, 12:28 AM
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Odd that this should be so confusing, the Lord does not promise allmen salvation, only the opportunity. The Lord's will is that none should perish, mankind choosing disobedient and especially unrepentant will is quite another matter.

beloved57
February 21st, 2011, 11:04 AM
The extent of the atonement, for whom did Christ die !

There is simply no way one can preach or believe the Gospel of Christ 1 Cor 15:1- 4 without knowing with understanding who it was specifically Christ died for i.e His Church or His Sheep. This is not even a debatable issue, one either has it right or you are preaching and or believing a false gospel, and chances are, one is in a accursed state who does not have it right Gal 1:8-9, for there is no True Worship of God apart from in Spirit and in Truth Jn 4.

As stated earlier Christ purpose was to save and He shall save Matt 1:21


21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

This is the stated difference between a True Gospel of Christ and the perverted gospel that claims Christ came to die and make salvation possible for all mankind, the tares and the wheat..

If we believe the false gospel that Christ death merely makes all men without exception savable, then we must conclude that the cross of Christ did not actually [in and of itself] save anyone, but only made it possible for men to save themselves by something they do. This is a blasphemous and disgusting conclusion, for this thinking denies that Christ is the One and Only Saviour who Saves: and that His cross work alone was not sufficient enough in itself to save those He intended as per Matt 1:21. This evil system has it that something from the sinner as faith and or repentance needs to be added to what Christ has done, so salvation is not wholly of God through Christ, but that part of it is of God through Christ and part of it from ourselves. What this flesh exalting lie fails to realize is that both Faith and Repentance flows to the objects of Christ death by means of the Cross of Christ, given freely with Him rRm 8:32

32He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

2 Pet 1:4

Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Faith is given 1 Tim 1:13-14

13Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

14And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

Repentance is Given Acts 5:31

31Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Acts 11:18

18When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

For these things accompany salvation or the giving of Christ to those He died for, so the cross of Christ secures and ensures the total salvation for all for whom He died.

patricius79
February 21st, 2011, 08:17 PM
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Odd that this should be so confusing, the Lord does not promise allmen salvation, only the opportunity. The Lord's will is that none should perish, mankind choosing disobedient and especially unrepentant will is quite another matter.

true

beloved57
February 22nd, 2011, 08:06 AM
yank:


Odd that this should be so confusing, the Lord does not promise allmen salvation, only the opportunity.

This is a Lie..

beloved57
February 22nd, 2011, 08:27 AM
Here are Stated Purposes of what Christ death is to accomplish on its own merit, hence indicating that if these purposes are not applied to all without exception, then His death could not have been for all without exception, lest He failed of His death's intention, which is blasphemous to even consider.


His death was to deliver those He died for from the present evil world Gal 1:4

4Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

This deliverance was according to the Will of the Father of Him, and us. Yes, He was our Father before we were delivered, thats why He wanted us delivered. Also it was the Fathers will for Christ to deliver us from this present world, so if we are not delivered, then He [Christ] failed His Fathers will for Him to accomplish, by He giving Himself for our sins..

This being according to the Will of God, it means as stated in Eph 1:5

5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Yes, its His determinative will of good pleasure that Christ by His death deliver those He died for from the present evil world..

Pierac
February 22nd, 2011, 06:03 PM
Death is separation, not cessation, in Scripture. Eternal death is everlasting, relational separation from God (conscious).

Really?

Because Adam and Eve never recieved this definition... Find it for me please!

Cain never recieved this definition and he killed his brother ... Find it for me please!

Noah never taught this the whole time he built his ark! ... Find it for me please!

Moses never taught this ... Find it for me please!

Abraham never spoke of such things... Find it for me please!

Jesus never taught such... Find it for me please!

No apostle taught as such... Find it for me please!

Psa 88:10 Do you work wonders for the dead? Do the departed rise up to praise you? Selah

Psa 115:17 The dead do not praise the LORD, nor do any who go down into silence.

Psa 146:4 When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.

Ecc 9:10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.

Listen to Peter!!!
2Pe 3:4 They will say, "Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation."


:think: Think, why is it not taught in scriptures, but only in man made institutions???

Paul

beloved57
February 23rd, 2011, 11:07 AM
Another stated Purpose for Christ death is given by Paul here Titus 2:14


14Who gave himself [That means died] for us, that[in order that] he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.


The Purpose of His death both redeems and purifies those whom He died for, thats why God gave Him to die..

The word purify is the greek word katharizō and means:


to make clean, cleanse

a) from physical stains and dirt

1) utensils, food

2) a leper, to cleanse by curing

3) to remove by cleansing

b) in a moral sense

1) to free from defilement of sin and from faults

2) to purify from wickedness

3) to free from guilt of sin, to purify

4) to consecrate by cleansing or purifying

5) to consecrate, dedicate

2) to pronounce clean in a levitical sense

Thats what Christ death, the giving of Himself does, that is what God the Father's Purpose and Intention was for the death of Christ to accomplish for all those He would die for..

If one person that Christ gave himself for falls short of this clearly stated purpose of Christ death, then His death was failure..

And sense we know from scripture all will not be purified, then Christ did not give Himself for all without exception..

beloved57
February 24th, 2011, 10:18 AM
To sanctify and cleanse Eph 5:25-27


25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave[died for] himself for it;

26That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

27That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

The word that is important, it is the greek word hina and its a conjunction which means:

that, in order that, so that

Its to point to stating a purpose or reason..

So Christ gave himself for the church so that He he will present it to Himself in a certain way..

The word might here puts the phrase in what is called the subjunctive mood which means:

The subjunctive mood is the mood of possibility and potentiality. The action described may or may not occur, depending upon circumstances.

The action to be done is determined by the Who or what fulfills the condition, which in this case is Christ through His death.

That is The church, to be presented to Himself a Glorious church, He had to give of Himself for that purpose..It could not just happen on its own..

So whenever you have the subjunctive mood preceded by the conjunction hina, the subjunctive is being introduced as a stated purpose.

So Three Purposes are stated in this passage as to why Christ gave Himself for the Church #1 vs 26 To sanctify and cleanse it vs 27a To present it to himself a glorious church and vs 27b That it should be Holy and without blemish...

So if any do not find themselves in these stated purposes in the Day of Christ, then Christ simply did not die for them, or give Himself for them..

yankeedoodled
February 24th, 2011, 09:31 PM
beloved57:
This is a Lie..

yankeedoodled:
It is truth that you find offensive, of course you have a self serving lie substitute that the wicked must inherit eternal life ?

beloved57
February 25th, 2011, 03:53 PM
Another stated Purpose for Christ Death was to remove or propitiate God's wrath of which it did Rom 3:25


25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

The word propitiation is the greek word hilastērion and means:


relating to an appeasing or expiating, having placating or expiating force, expiatory; a means of appeasing or expiating, a propitiation

a) used of the cover of the ark of the covenant in the Holy of Holies, which was sprinkled with the blood of the expiatory victim on the annual day of atonement (this rite signifying that the life of the people, the loss of which they had merited by their sins, was offered to God in the blood as the life of the victim, and that God by this ceremony was appeased and their sins expiated); hence the lid of expiation, the propitiatory

b) an expiatory sacrifice

c) a expiatory victim

The Idea is that God has been appeased by the sacrifice of His Son for the sins of His People.

The punishment due to all the elect of God, all of their sins against God, Have been Justly vindicated by Christ death for them, God has no Legal Grounds to punish them for their sins because He punished Christ in their stead and His Justice has been fully satisfied on their behalf. He has been placated..And He shows each of His elect that Truth in due time, thats why its stated that Christ was set forth to be a propitiation through Faith.

Abel Looked to Him when He made that sacrifice by Faith Heb 11:4

4By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

Notice, by which He obtained witness that he was righteous, not that he became righteous by what he did. He had been given Faith that His sins would be taken care of by Lamb of God, the seed of the women..

All for whom Christ has died will be given this Faith as an evidence that they are righteous, not by their own obedience, but by the Obedience of One Jesus Christ Rom 5:19b

so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Yes, that was Abel's hope too..

patricius79
February 25th, 2011, 03:58 PM
Another stated Purpose for Christ Death was to remove or propitiate God's wrath of which it did Rom 3:
25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

The word propitiation is the greek word hilastērion and means:


relating to an appeasing or expiating, having placating or expiating force, expiatory; a means of appeasing or expiating, a propitiation
..

I think that God is Love, not wrath.

we are the ones that are angry

and the value Christ's Sacrifice is enough to cover all humans and teach us all to love, which is grace

1 Jn 4:8, 1 Jn 2:2, 1 Tim 4:10

godrulz
February 26th, 2011, 01:02 AM
I think that God is Love, not wrath.

we are the ones that are angry

and the value Christ's Sacrifice is enough to cover all humans and teach us all to love, which is grace

1 Jn 4:8, 1 Jn 2:2, 1 Tim 4:10

God is love, but His wrath is also seen in Scripture (holiness). His wrath flows out of His love.

beloved57
February 26th, 2011, 10:24 AM
Another stated purpose for the death of Christ, God's Son is to reconcile us [ those He died for] to God !

Rom 5:10

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

All those Christ died for have been reconciled to God by His Death, it cant be made more plainer than what this scripture states.

And this reconciliation occurred while or when we were enemies, that is faithless.

You see, thats a major difference between those who are God's enemies by nature, the non elect, and those who are the elect who are God's enemies by nature, the elect are still reconciled to God and in His Favor.

The word reconciled is the greek word Katallasso and means:

to change, exchange, as coins for others of equivalent value

to reconcile (those who are at variance)

return to favour with, be reconciled to one

to receive one into favour

So that, even while we are enemies by nature, all those Christ died for have been received into God's Favor.

However, this is not True for all those Christ did not for, instead of His Favor, they remain under God's wrath.. Jn 3:36


He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

You see, that cannot be True of the elect while they are unbelievers and enemies..because while in that state, they have been reconciled to God by Christ death..

beloved57
February 27th, 2011, 11:23 AM
Another stated purpose for the death of Christ is shown here Heb 9:

12Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained or procured eternal redemption for us.

Note that its a Eternal Redemption, the word Eternal is aionios and means:

without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be

without beginning

without end, never to cease, everlasting

And redemption is lutrosis:

a ransoming, redemption

deliverance, esp. from the penalty of sin

He has obtained or procured for His body, the Church a never to cease, without end deliverance from the penalty of their sins..

So they have the redemption with the forgiveness of sins through His blood eph 1:


7In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

And we know all without exception have this Eternal Redemption obtained for them by Christ saying these words unto them:

Matt 7:

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

BTW- Redemption is its own application, not something one has to decide to accept or reject , but something God does or applies :

Lk 1:

68Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

ps 111:

9 He sent redemption unto his people: he hath commanded his covenant for ever: holy and reverend is his name.


God commands His redemption for His People, His Chosen in Christ. It is not a offer for them to accept or reject.

Isa 43:

1But now thus saith the LORD that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine.

In the redemption that God Himself does or applies, it Turns God's People from their sins Acts 3:

26Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Thats the effect of redemption in addition to the forgiveness of sins, It Turns everyone who has been redeemed from their sins, as a evidence of having been set free..

patricius79
February 27th, 2011, 12:00 PM
God is love, but His wrath is also seen in Scripture (holiness). His wrath flows out of His love.

yes and it has to do with our sins. for that reason I don't think it is intrinsic to God, if you follow me

btw, God does not regard heresy as a light matter.

although, I do realize that some people involved in heresies have invincible ignorance

beloved57
February 27th, 2011, 03:52 PM
pat:


btw, God does regard heresy as a light matter.

Oh really ? How do you explain Gal 5:

19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

and 2 pet 2:

1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

patricius79
February 27th, 2011, 05:34 PM
pat:



Oh really ? How do you explain Gal 5:

19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

and 2 pet 2:

1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

amen. sorry: I accidentallly didn't type "not". ( I corrected my post, now)

beloved57
February 27th, 2011, 07:48 PM
These scriptures have been clear that Christ death was not merely to make redemption[salvation] possible, but to actually redeem them He died for, for God's purpose cannot fail as per Job 42:2


2 I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.


2 “I know that You can do everything,
And that no purpose of Yours can be withheld from You.[NKJV]

2"I know that you can do all things,
and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.[ESV]

And Isa 46:10

10Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Then everyone Christ died for must be redeemed, and it is a scriptural fact that all without exception are not eternally redeemed, so then He did not die for everyone without exception lest His purpose failed, or yet will everyone be redeemed, which there is no scriptural proof of, unless you wrest scripture to your destruction as the universalist do..

yankeedoodled
February 28th, 2011, 11:16 AM
Matthew 18:3
And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Luke 18:17
Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.”

There are many of guile and hidden purposes that want heaven and are quite willing to play the God 'game' in hopes of eternal life. I've read; even the wicked want to go to heaven. The 'clever' will find their subterfuge and hidden posturing/false pretenses will serve them not all all on judgment day.

Ps82
February 28th, 2011, 02:37 PM
Another popular Myth in the religious world today, is the Jesus Christ died or gave His Life for everyone in the world without exception, but the problem with that, is there is not one shred of scripture evidence that states that.

The scripture however does say that He died for His Sheep or His Church as per Jn 10:

11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

eph 5:

25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

His People Isa 53:

8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. cp Matt 1:21

Now, are all without exception His Sheep ? No

Are all without exception His Church ? No

Are all without exception His People ? No

For surely the seed of the serpent Gen 3:15 cannot be of His Sheep, His Church, or His People.

So why does the religous world proclaim that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception, when they have no scripture proof ? Because it is a Myth.

Beloved and others,
The miracle God performed in flesh as Jesus was all that was necessary to save ALL MANKIND... so in that way... the Messiah did die to save ALL MEN... however, not ALL MEN would accept His gift of salvation.

But the fact that ALL MEN will not accept their salvation from God should not be blamed on God, for He did die so that ALL MEN could be saved.

patricius79
February 28th, 2011, 03:58 PM
Beloved and others,
The miracle God performed in flesh as Jesus was all that was necessary to save ALL MANKIND... so in that way... the Messiah did die to save ALL MEN... however, not ALL MEN would accept His gift of salvation.

But the fact that ALL MEN will not accept their salvation from God should not be blamed on God, for He did die so that ALL MEN could be saved.

amen. 1 Jn 2:2

the historic Church has always defended the doctrine of our free will, and God's Infinite Mercy

beloved57
March 1st, 2011, 12:04 AM
Gal 6:14

14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

The Cross of Christ did not merely make redemption possible for those He died in behalf of, but it made certain that they would become believers, that they would come into experimental salvation, so the cross saves completely, paul knew it, and so does a True Christian.

What did Christ do when He died ? This should be known if we really believe the Gospel " That Christ died for our sins according to scripture".

Christ death proved to be an effective cure for the sinners He died for, for it is written, By His Stripes [Meaning His Death or Cross] we were healed 1 Pet 2:24

24Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

The word healed is the greek word iaomai and means:

to cure, heal

2) to make whole

a) to free from errors and sins, to bring about (one's) salvation

By His Stripes or Cross He brings about ones Salvation, He makes them whole..

It effects a spiritual healing.. It heals the deadly wound of sin and spiritual death...

The saved are healed not by their faith, their freewill, their repentance, but solely by the Cross / Stripes of Christ..

This is what redemption through His Blood accomplishes for all that He died..

Now, did He die for all without exception ? The obvious answer is no, since all without exception will not be made whole or healed .

beloved57
March 1st, 2011, 11:00 AM
1 Jn 4:10

10Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

What does this word mean here ? Propitiation, well it is the greek word hilasmos:

an appeasing, propitiating

2) the means of appeasing, a propitiation


Christ was the means by which God would appease Himself of His Wrath against all those Christ died for. He will, did not, and cannot appease Himself by punishing anyone that Christ has died for, regardless if those persons accept it or not, the point is that He has accepted it from Christ's offering on their behalf..

The word appease means primarily:

To bring peace !

Because of Christ propitiation, peace is restored and those Christ died for have been reconciled to God by the death of Christ which appeased God Rom 5:10a

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son

That word reconciled is closely akin to propitiate in 1 Jn 4:10..Its greek word is katallassō and means:


to reconcile (those who are at variance)

b) return to favour with, be reconciled to one

c) to receive one into favour

God was at variance/enmity with the elect because of their sins

But because Christ was sent to be a propitiation, that variance, enmity, conflict has been removed, Godwardly..

So, that even while the elect are at enmity with Him by Nature, they have been reconciled and returned to His Favor by the death of His Son on their behalf.

So the elect, or those Christ died for, are born in need of being converted, yet they are not under judicial condemnation or God's wrath while unconverted, because God has sent His Son to be the propitiation for their sins, because He Loved them..

beloved57
March 2nd, 2011, 01:43 AM
Rev 5:


9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

The effectiveness of Christ redemption proves that it was not for all mankind without exception, this is a precious gospel Truth that Glorifies the Cross of Christ, because it means that His Cross actually saves , thats the power of the cross..1 cor 1:18

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

The preaching or the method of speaking is not the power of God, but the cross, the focus of the message, it is the power of God unto them who are being saved by it..That is the Cross Saves it has power..

Now returning focus on rev 5:9-10 vs 9 is it anywhere indicated that Christ ransomed [died] for everyone in each ethnic Group ? No it's not, for if so, it would not be careful to read that the ransomed or redeemed are out of every kindred, tongue and people and nation ! So any honest heart can perceive from vs 9 that Jesus redeeming blood was limited in intention, and only meant to save out of all people..

Acts 15:14

Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

Next, lets consider vs 10 as to what happens to them who are ransomed. It states that Christ by His blood [not by their freewill or faith] makes them to be a kingdom and priest to God, this is the effectiveness, it makes them these things rev 1:


5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Now the same persons that were ransomed in vs 9 are said to be made a kingdom and priests , which is to say that all for whom Christ redeemed by His blood will become believers and shall be saved, for the same Truth is expressed for all whom He reconciled to God by His death, shall be saved by His Life rom 5:

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

It can be absolutely no one Christ died for that shall not be saved and become a believer, a Priest to God, because the verse is emphatic in stating that those He died for, shed His blood for are made [not offered] into a Kingdom of Priest to God, so its seen from vs 10, that Christ redemption is efficacious in nature.

BTW, Those in 2 pet 2:1 Could not have been bought with Christ redeeming blood, or that would contradict the effectiveness of Christ redemption that is taught here in rev, So evidently the being bought there must mean something other than blood bought redemption..

beloved57
March 2nd, 2011, 12:33 PM
The Atonement or Satisfaction of Christ is unlimited in its Geographical extent, the whole world and not just Palestine or ethnic jews, but however it is limited in its purpose to save and effectiveness.

God's Purpose of Salvation through Christ is Limited to the seed of Abraham Heb 2:16

For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Gal 3:29

And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Only Heirs of Abraham's seed are promised Eternal life and Salvation..

But the seed of Abraham was not limited to one particular nation or geographical location or race, but was in every nation Gen 17:5

5Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

beloved57
March 2nd, 2011, 11:49 PM
Musing scriptures that clearly set forth the specific intention and objects of Christ death !

Eph 5:25-27

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Now from this passage it is clear that the death of Christ has specific beneficiaries. Does paul tell us specifically in this passage who Christ Loved and gave Himself up for vs 25 cp Jn 13:1

1Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.

Now according to paul in this passage, why did Christ give himself for the church ?

So what conditioned must have the church been in, for Christ to give himself for her.

Was paul in this passage making Salvation possible through Christ death or was He making it actual through Christ death ?

beloved57
March 3rd, 2011, 09:15 AM
Lets look more closely at the Love of Christ in this passage, who is it that he Loves ? Is it not His Church, and is that not compared to that of a Husband and wife ? Now to say that Christ loved all people without exception the same and equally, His wife as well as those who are not His wife or bride, this seems to lessen His Love for the Church, His Bride, what greater expression of love is it than for one to lay down his life for those he loved Jn 15:13, so if Christ died for all without exception, then He loved all without exception in the same manner, which is paramount to a Husband saying to His Special Bride, yes I love you my dearest, but no more than I love any other women. Would the Special Bride feel special ? Was it not a difference of affection towards Rachel by Jacob than towards Leah ? see Gen 29:18 & 29:31

Was not Israels election by God a token of her special Love above others ? Deut 7:6-7

6For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

7The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

I believe the Love that Christ has for His Church, those He died for, His Bride, is comparatively speaking like hating those who was not His Bride, for not all without exception are the Chosen Bride of Christ.

Those whom the Father hath given [in marriage] His Son are the ones that come to Him as His Bride Jn 6:37


37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Just as God brought Adam His Bride to Him [see Gen 2:22] which was eve, and because she had come out of him, which meant that she was first in him as one, so it is with Christ, the Last Adam, His Bride was first in Him as in Chosen in Him before the foundation [see Eph 1:4] and so God brings her to His Son in time [Jn 6:37], they will be attracted to Him and he to them because God chose them for one another for a marriage Purpose, Just as He chose Adam and Eve for a Marriage purpose, for this be a great Mystery paul says in Eph 5:32. The account of Adam and Eve in Genesis 2 was a type and picture of Christ and His Bride the Church, so this could be nothing but special and exclusive Love for the Church above all others, expressed in giving His Life for Her...

beloved57
March 4th, 2011, 05:52 PM
Another scripture to think on as to the specific objects of Christ death is Jn 10:


15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

The word for is the greek word hyper and means:


in behalf of, for the sake of

2) over, beyond, more than

3) more, beyond, over

He lays down His Life in behalf of the Sheep..

So, who here does Jesus state He gives His Life for ? What condition must they [ the sheep] had been in, for it to be necessary for Him to His Life in their behalf ? Does Christ state anything about laying down His life for the goats ?

beloved57
March 5th, 2011, 10:32 AM
1 Jn 2:2


2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

We know this scripture cannot mean every individual in the whole world has had their sins propitiated for by Christ, since the term itself means a appeasing or removal of God's wrath, hence no one should be under God's wrath as per Jn 3:36

36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

So its a careless mistake and bible study to take 1 Jn 2:2 " whole world" to mean every single individual without exception has God been propitiated for.

Even in 1 Jn 5:19

19And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

Where the exact same expression is used, it would be foolish to understand it in a unlimited sense, for the we there which are believers, whom John identifies himself with, would be the exception.

Lets look at Rev 13:3,8


3And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Now this is the same words "Whole World" Does John mean to say that everyone in the whole world without exception followed or wondered at the beast ?

An exception is in vs 8

8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of

That was the exception as to who was not wondering after the beast. And vs 7 explains what John means by the whole world:

7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Yes, the whole world meant that all kindreds, and tongues and nations wondered after the beast, people throughout the whole world.

Thats what whole or all means, its the word holos and means all, whole, completely and its used more than 1200 times as throughout as in throughout the whole world, the beast will have His admirers..

Hence, 1 Jn 2:2 is meaning the same thing, that Christ is the propitiation for not only jewish believers, but for believers of all kindreds, tongues and nations, throughout the world..

beloved57
March 5th, 2011, 11:58 AM
Now what about Rev 12:9,11


9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


Whole World does not mean every person without exception, for in vs 11 we see more than overcomer's:

11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

So again, the meaning is the same as it is in Rev 13:7

So the phrase the Whole World rarely if at anytime means everyone without exception, but rather, people from all over the world, or throughout the whole world.

You see in the early church it was a problem with gentiles being part of the Church, it was thought that salvation was only for ethnic jews, for even peter did not realize otherwise until acts 10, so on the day of Pentecost, he had only Christ dying for ethnic jews on his mind.

And so even after God convinced him of the universality of salvation [ Acts 10:35], the problem did not just go away perhaps for a long time. So the Apostle John in His writings of the epistles wants to keep the problem in check and constantly let it be known that God's wrath has been appeased ob behalf of men and women of every nation, the elect scattered throughout the whole world, and of all time.

Lets look at similarities between 1 jn 2 2 and His Gospel Jn 11:51-52


51And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

52And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad. or throughout the world..

John is certainly affirming the Limited atonement in this passage, and so with its similarities with 1 Jn 2:2 we can conclude John means the same thing in both passages 1 Jn 2:2 and Jn 11:51-52..

beloved57
March 5th, 2011, 05:24 PM
Let me please elaborate a little more on God sending His Son to be the propitiation for our sins, John writing to Jewish Believers 1 jn 4:10, for He was the apostle to the circumcising, stressed earlier that in the letter 1 jn 2 2 , that not only was Christ the propitiation for our sins [jewish converts] but for the sins of those throughout the world[gentile converts], for He is our Peace, because propitiation appeases the wrath of God for those Christ became a sin offering for and in behalf of.

So now we can understand John to be writing, that God sent His own Son into the World to be the Peace for our Sins, which is a effect or result of His being a propitiation sacrifice.

The Apostle Paul teaches the same blessed Truth as 1 jn 2 2 and 4 10 in eph 2:



11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

Yes, Paul was as John establishing the Fact that Christ death was not just for jews but gentiles as well, and He made peace or propitiation for us as one New Man..

It must be understood why these labors were necessary, because under the OT under the Typical economy, the propitiation offerings and sacrifices, they were only for the nation of Israel, Abraham's Physical descendants, the circumcision, and only they benefited. So it was ingrained in the minds of even the saved [as peter for a while] that the Salvation of the seed of Abraham was confined to that Nation and Abraham's physical children of that nation..

beloved57
March 6th, 2011, 06:08 PM
We know that Christ could not have died for all men without exception, because all for whom He died, gave Himself for, He once and for all sanctified them..

Heb 10:9-10

9Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

All those Christ died for [ the offering of His body] He sanctified them by His death or His offering of Himself. Now if this be True, those whom are born sinners by nature., but yet Christ died for them, then legally they are sanctified once and for all. The word sanctified in the greek is the word hagiazo and means:

to render or acknowledge, or to be venerable or hallow

to separate from profane things and dedicate to God

consecrate things to God

dedicate people to God

to purify

to cleanse externally

to purify by expiation: free from the guilt of sin

to purify internally by renewing of the soul

Also it is in the Perfect Tense which means:

The perfect tense in Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and describes an action which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated.

So by one offering [His Death] in the past, those Christ died for have been permanently consecrated to God, freed from the guilt of sin.

Now can one be sanctified before they are born ? If one was sanctified by Christ death 2000 yrs ago, and they are born in 1945 as a sinner, can they still be sanctified by the Death of Christ ? Yes they can be sanctified before they are born, and yes they are sanctified while being born a sinner by nature. Case and example is Jeremiah Lets look at Jer 1:5

5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Jeremiah's being sanctified by God before he came forth out of the womb, and being appointed a prophet, did by no means exempt him from being born a sinner by nature, for all men are born sinners [Rom 5:12] yes even Jeremiah, but nevertheless He was in the Purpose of God already sanctified, set apart for a Purpose, and legally free from guilt. Was Jeremiah born a sinner and a enemy of God by Nature ? Yes, but was he born legally condemned by God for his sins ? No, legally he was not guilty and set apart for the Holy Purpose of God, as all men and women are for whom Christ died Rev 5:9-10

9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast [B]redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

For being appointed a OT Prophet to God as Jeremiah is no more important to God as being appointed or made into a Kingdom of Priest unto God, both were for His own Glory and Praise !

So Christ could not have died for all the world without exception, because all without exception are not sanctified..

beloved57
March 7th, 2011, 12:17 PM
Heb 2:8-10


8Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

10For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Many in man made religions of our day have hijacked this passage of scripture and forced upon it their own selfish understanding, in total disregard for context both immediate and overall subject wise, that is the overall subject of the purpose and accomplishments of the Death of Christ. Now lets consider this passage in its immediate context.

Jesus here is presented in His Mediatorial exaltation as the Life of His Body, the Church, and was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death [ the death of obedience Rom 5:19b] now crowned with Glory and Honor.

Now in determining for whom He tasted death for, we must understand that a spiritual family existed in His Sonship, as the Son of God, just as it did in His Type Adam who was the Son of God by creation Lk 3:38


38Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which [B]was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

For the fleshly or earthly family existed in Adam and were made manifest by physical birth and are men! So these [In the Son of God] sustain a covenant relation with Christ as He is their Head, for it is written " He is head over all things to the church" Paul also writes " for there is one God, and One Mediator between God and Men. the Man Christ Jesus, who Gave Himself a ransom for all to be testified in due time " So therefore He by the Grace of God tasted death for every man, for everyone of them, or each one of them, for [ because] it became Him " for whom are all things, in bringing many Sons to Glory, to make the captain or prince of their salvation perfect through suffering. For both He that sanctifieth[Christ] and they that are sanctified [His body] are all of one seed Gal 3:16, 29]; For which cause He is not ashamed to call them brethren [even though by nature they are very sinful] So every man God the Father will bring to Glory is a Son in the Sonship of Christ, and they shall receive the Spirit of Adoption whereby he cries abba Father, and they are all the brethren of Christ [Rom 8:29b] and He is their elder brother. God spared not His only Son in the redemption of chosen sinners upon the principle of Grace abounding through Jesus Christ in the salvation of every man or every son bought to Glory. So He tasted death for every man or every son that Christ is bringing to Glory..

Hardy777
March 7th, 2011, 01:27 PM
God has always reached out to all the world, for the Jews were supposed to be God's priests to the world, but they failed. In the dedication of the new temple, a promise was to any stranger of the world who was not a Jew that if they came before the temple and called out to God, He would hear and answer the stranger's prayer, 1 Kings 8:41. Predestination and election is to service, not salvation, 2 Tim 1:9, "Who has saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began." Election could not be to salvation because Paul states in 1 Tim 5:21, "I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, ...." The Apostle Paul was very smart and was the one who first started using the word elect. He of all people would not have called angels elect, for he would have known that angles DO NOT GET SAVED, they are elected by God to special acts of service. The angel does not even preach salvation, in Acts 10 the angel God sent told Cornelius to send for Peter to tell him what to do to be saved.

beloved57
March 8th, 2011, 04:39 AM
hardy:


God has always reached out to all the world

Not suprising being that His elect is throughout the world..


Predestination and election is to service, not salvation,

Not True, because the service requires salvation..He has made us a kingdom of Priest to our God..rev 5:

9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Hardy777
March 8th, 2011, 10:35 AM
It is God's will that all come to salvation, and then He has a predestined or elected path for each of us, but each must choose of his free will to come to salvation first. 2 Tim 1:9 states, "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began." When God selected Jacob to lead His people, that did not mean God hated Esau. Study Esau's life and you will see that God blessed Esau with a "homeland" Mount Seir during the 20 years Jacob was working for his 2 wives and stock. Deut 2:12 tells that God fought with Esau to clear out his homeland. They were predestined to service before they were born, not salvation. Look at what God told their mother before they were born. The Apostle Paul would not have referred to the angels as elect in 1 Tim 5:21 if election had anything to do with salvation.

beloved57
March 8th, 2011, 10:51 AM
hardy:


It is God's will that all come to salvation,

Not all without exception, but the ones it is His will for shall come to Christ jn 6:


37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Thats the All being referred to in 1 tim 2

beloved57
March 8th, 2011, 11:42 AM
So Christ tasted or experienced death for every man or son, and so He is the propitiation for the sins of the people in america, asia, europe, and africa and etc, and why, Because He experienced or tasted death for each of them, out of every tribe rev 5:

9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain[Tasted death], and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

By understanding the nature of the atonement and the certain powerful effects of the cross, it should be noted that the efficacy of the is towards people of all nations, and so words like all, every and the such are used in connection, but they still only apply to the chosen people of God, however man made religions twist the Truth and take advantage of those words, and change them into a lie.

patricius79
March 8th, 2011, 11:52 AM
beloved,

Calvinism is a heresy, although it is true that we are saved purely by grace

(and that we have free will. Rev 2:21, Mt 23:37)

have you ever thought of becoming Catholic?

http://www.catholic.com/library/fathers_know_best.asp

Hardy777
March 8th, 2011, 01:05 PM
Calvinism is heresy, God loves all people and desires them to come to Him through Christ. Then He has a special calling for each of us. God does not predestine people to heaven or hell prior to birth. We each must choose Him out of our desire for Him. Malachi 1:1-3 does not say God hated Esau. God is quoting back the the Children of Israel the lie they had been telling about Him. God says "I have loved you, saith the Lord. Yet you say," A quote mark, ", should follow Yet you say, " -------- unto the end of verse 3" God never said He hated Esau, He was confronting them with the lie they were telling about Him. Read my book at: rahardin.com "God Loved Esau." The Apostle Paul in Romans 9 was talking about election to service, not salvation.

beloved57
March 8th, 2011, 01:48 PM
hardy:


Calvinism is heresy,

You are calling the Truth calvinism, thats not going to help you in the day of Judgment.

beloved57
March 8th, 2011, 01:49 PM
pat:


beloved,

Calvinism is a heresy,

So that is what you call the word of God ?

freelight
March 8th, 2011, 02:37 PM
~*~*~

Sounds like a pretty 'selfish atonement' on God's part,....assuming such. Granted, with freedom of choice and provision made for all souls to choose the way of true prosperity, this opportunity would be available to all....since Love's will could include no less. - factoring in the 'freedom of choice' is a 'key' in such appropriations.



pj

beloved57
March 8th, 2011, 11:27 PM
1 jn 4:9

In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we [The Believers He was writing to] might live through him.

10 herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Another Purpose for Christ coming into the world and becoming a propitiation for our sins [if we are believers] was so that we should live [spiritually and abundantly] through Him.

In Adam, the elect of God became a sinful people, in both nature and conduct and so we were dead, that is dead to God, alienated from the Life of God, dead in sin. God sent His Son into the World out of Love for us not only to be a propitiation for our sins [procuring our forgiveness] but also to be life for us, that we may Live Spiritually. So Christ coming not only saved His beloved People from the penalty of Sin, but also He saved them from out of Spiritual Death unto a newness of Life, for He gives us to experience as it were a Spiritual Resurrection from the Dead. Thats why it is said that He became a quickening Spirit 1 cor 15:

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made [U]a quickening spirit. jn 5:

21For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

Christ gives to all for whom He died and represented Justification unto Life !

Rom 5:

18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Here again is the propitiation and Life together, Thats why it says that we should live through Him.. His death effects Life..Because He becomes a Life giving Spirit..


So those who are not and do not experience Life from Him, He did not die for, He did not represent in His death..

Hardy777
March 9th, 2011, 10:45 PM
pat:



So that is what you call the word of God ?

Calvinism is not the word of God. If you read the Scriptures that were in my post you would see that.

beloved57
March 10th, 2011, 04:43 AM
hardy:


Calvinism is not the word of God.

Yes it is, people have just put that label on those Truthes, but they are founded upon scripture, especially Tulip..

beloved57
March 15th, 2011, 11:29 PM
Rom 5:

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Another reason why it is a myth to say that Christ died for all without exception, is because all He died for shall be saved by His Life..

And we know that all without exception shall be saved..for many shall perish in their sins..

What many in man made religion do not understand about the Work of Christ, that it is also Christ responsibility as Saviour of God's People, that what He did on the cross is applied to all He died to save, and thats why its stated after His resurrection that He went to appear before God for us heb 9:


24For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

The us here are the elect of God, The many sons He brings to Glory, the seed of Abraham, the children God gave Him, partakers of the Heavenly calling.

Now a major reason for this [His appearing for us], is that as part of His Saving Purpose, He is to make intercession [for application] for all those He died. The Lord Jesus Christ intercessory work is vital for the applying of all His saving benefits to God's elect. There is an efficacy in His intercession, this is True because of His Merit and therefore shall prevail with God.

The Holy Spirit is vital in answering the call here, and is the Gift that the Father gave to the Son for His cross work acts 2:

33Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

And because we shall saved by His Life, The Holy Spirit communicates to all of God's elect, those Christ died for, the Life we have in Christ as He is our risen Head and Mediator, Hence as it is written, the Gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord, and the meritorious ground whereby the Spirit imparts life to dead elect sinners is the work or cross of Christ...

All men without exception do not receive this life, because Christ did not die for them who do not receive it...

beloved57
March 20th, 2011, 04:53 PM
Rom 5:

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

This is a most blessed Truth of the Gospel, and if understood properly gives us proof that Christ death could not have been for all men without exception. Now its important to make this known, that all of the many that Christ by His obedience [death Phil 2:8] shall [promise] be made righteous.

The greek word for righteous is kathistēmi:


to set, place, put

a) to set one over a thing (in charge of it)

b) to appoint one to administer an office

c) to set down as, constitute, to declare, show to be

d) to constitute, to render, make, cause to be

e) to conduct or bring to a certain place

f) to show or exhibit one's self

1) come forward as

In this statement of shall be made righteous we have Two blessed Truths #1 The Many shall be declared righteous and they shall be shown to be righteous. That is they will be caused to be righteous. This is both legally and subjectively.

All those who are Legally declared righteous objectively by the obedience of ONE, shall also be caused to be righteous [subjectively] so subjective righteousness is the consequence of objective and legal righteousness.

Paul is stating that all for whom Christ died for , which was His One obedience unto death, will be made experientially or subjectively righteous, just as by the one man's disobedience [adam] the many were legally made sinners and we are made experientially subjectively sinners, there is just no way around the meaning of this contrast in vs 19. Now the only way to become subjectively righteous is by the New Birth, just becoming subjectively sinful is by natural birth the new birth is being born of the Spirit, so in essence what paul is saying here in rom 5 19, is that Christ obedience unto death, for the many He represented, ensures their New Birth by the Spirit see Titus 3:5; Jn 3:3-8. This aspect of being made righteous is the commencing of our experiential sanctification, that is sanctification of the Spirit as in 2 thess2:


13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation [B]through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

For this sanctification is the process begun of being made experientially righteous Just as stated in rom 5:19..

So if one never becomes experientially righteous, then Christ obedience unto death was not for them..

coulter4president
March 21st, 2011, 12:26 PM
Another popular Myth in the religious world today, is the Jesus Christ died or gave His Life for everyone in the world without exception, but the problem with that, is there is not one shred of scripture evidence that states that.

The scripture however does say that He died for His Sheep or His Church as per Jn 10:

11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

eph 5:

25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

His People Isa 53:

8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. cp Matt 1:21

Now, are all without exception His Sheep ? No

.


what the devil are you talking about??

anyone who chooses can be one of His sheep!!!

beloved57
March 21st, 2011, 10:29 PM
c4:


anyone who chooses can be one of His sheep!!!

No they cant, thats in your deceived mind..

beloved57
March 22nd, 2011, 09:58 AM
Rom 5:

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

1 cor 15:

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Romans 5:19b can very well read so by the obedience of one shall many be made alive !

Even though in entirely different context, these scriptures teach the same principle of Truth, how the action of One as a Representative Head produced consequences and effects for whoever that one was a Representative Head; And so Just as Adam's disobedience effected sinnership and death, even so, Christ obedience for those He represented [His Church] effected righteousness and Life, hence Christ people are made alive to righteousness.

Thats why it says in rom 5 18b

even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Life here is not a legal term but a principle, its the greek word zoe and means:

life

a) the state of one who is possessed of vitality or is animate

b) every living soul

2) life

Its that spiritual life that Christ as the bread of Life gives to the elect world, the Church jn 6:

33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

Remember, in the OT what world did God give the bread from Heaven to ? Was it not just to His Chosen world of Israel, which was a type of His Church, His called out ones ?

So all those for whom Christ was a Head to, whom He represented, by His obedience [death] they shall be made alive, that is receive from Him Justification unto life..

They shall be made alive unto righteousness as per rom 6:13

Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Thats because they were made alive by Christ..

coulter4president
March 22nd, 2011, 01:41 PM
c4:



No they cant, thats in your deceived mind..

I've read the entire Bible and HEARD the Bible several times over during (frequent) Mass

you are the one deceived

you dont believe the Word of God that says that God is not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL [find Him]

coulter4president
March 22nd, 2011, 01:46 PM
hardy:



Yes it is, people have just put that label on those Truthes, but they are founded upon scripture, especially Tulip..

Calvin lived some 1600 yrs after Christ ascended..

you follow a MAN, not Jesus Christ (God)

coulter4president
March 22nd, 2011, 03:30 PM
God is not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL [find Him]

beloved57
March 23rd, 2011, 03:24 AM
God is not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL [find Him]

Sure, not willing that any of His elect perish, and they wont..

beloved57
March 23rd, 2011, 03:25 AM
Calvin lived some 1600 yrs after Christ ascended..

you follow a MAN, not Jesus Christ (God)

Calling the word of God calvin is not going to help you in rejecting the Truth..

patricius79
March 23rd, 2011, 04:57 AM
Calvin was a heretic

Titus 2:11


11
2 For the grace of God has appeared, saving all
12
and training us to reject godless ways and worldly desires and to live temperately, justly, and devoutly in this age,

1 Jn 2:2

bybee
March 23rd, 2011, 05:00 AM
Sure, not willing that any of His elect perish, and they wont..

Contradiction in terms, how could the elect perish?

beloved57
March 23rd, 2011, 05:32 AM
Contradiction in terms, how could the elect perish?

They cant, God is not willing..

godrulz
March 23rd, 2011, 01:04 PM
Sure, not willing that any of His elect perish, and they wont..

Calvinism must insert words and concepts that are not in the original to retain a flawed view. Take it at face value and change your view.

For God so loved the elect vs unregenerate world?!

Calvinism limits the love of God and makes His justice arbitrary. Decretal, deterministic views ARE UNBIBLICAL.

Nick M
March 23rd, 2011, 01:11 PM
Calvinism must insert words and concepts that are not in the original to retain a flawed view.

And you don't? Shall I put up a bunch of your quotes now? I don't need to...everybody knows you are a con man.

Ardima
March 23rd, 2011, 01:25 PM
Free-will creates a god who cannot save all.

Predestination creates a god who will not save all.

Universal reconciliation presents the God who can and will save all as the Bible teaches. (1st Timothy 4:10); (2nd Corinthians 5:19); (1st Corinthians 15:22); (Ephesians 1:10); (Colossians 1:20) just to name a few.

godrulz
March 23rd, 2011, 02:00 PM
And you don't? Shall I put up a bunch of your quotes now? I don't need to...everybody knows you are a con man.

I do not change the Johannine use of 'world' (kosmos) in the most famous Bible verse in the world by adding 'elite elect'. A comment or interpretation of a verse is NOT adding words to it or changing meaning, necessarily.

Feel free to quote my comments on specific verses so I can own or disown my specific past interpretations. I will clarify or qualify. Do not just post generic comments about my induction/deduction of theology based on biblical verses that believers may differ on (I don't have a Calvinistic paradigm, so their proof texting of individual vs corporate election will differ from me).

So, I am all ears. Quote my exegesis of specific verses and show where I distort the text by adding words (like JWs do to negate the Deity of Christ by adding 'other' 6x in Colossians where the underlying Greek does not have it).

KJV adds words as does every other version because going from Greek to English is not a one-to-one issue due to different grammar, syntax, etc.

godrulz
March 23rd, 2011, 02:04 PM
Free-will creates a god who cannot save all.

Predestination creates a god who will not save all.

Universal reconciliation presents the God who can and will save all as the Bible teaches. (1st Timothy 4:10); (2nd Corinthians 5:19); (1st Corinthians 15:22); (Ephesians 1:10); (Colossians 1:20) just to name a few.

Love is not divorced from holiness/justice.

God cannot unconditionally save all men without compromising His responsibility as a perfect Moral Governor.

The biblical balance is that God has made perfect provision for all men to be saved (not just limited atonement for elect only; TULIP is wrong), yet not all men will receive His free gift by responding to His reasonable conditions (includes faith to receive Him).

Jesus is willing, but men are not willing (Lk. 7:30; Matthew 23:37).

There is no love or relationship without free will. Free will is self-evident, so Calvinism is off the table.

Universalism is heretical and not a valid solution. It pits His love against His holiness/justice. Mercy can only be wisely extended under certain conditions (Satan will be in the lake of fire, not reconciled). Justice is reasonable for the impenitent. Those who reject Christ are also seen in the lake of fire where both are tormented day and night forever and ever.

So, reject Calvinism and universalism to remain biblical (Open Theism or Arminianism is a cogent alternative that upholds holiness and love).

coulter4president
March 23rd, 2011, 02:06 PM
Calvinism must insert words and concepts that are not in the original to retain a flawed view. Take it at face value and change your view.

For God so loved the elect vs unregenerate world?!

Calvinism limits the love of God and makes His justice arbitrary. Decretal, deterministic views ARE UNBIBLICAL.

amen!

weird how illogical some religions are... and unbiblical

coulter4president
March 23rd, 2011, 02:09 PM
Love is not divorced from holiness/justice.God cannot unconditionally save all men without compromising His responsibility as a perfect Moral Governor.

The biblical balance is that God has made perfect provision for all men to be saved (not just limited atonement for elect only; TULIP is wrong), yet not all men will receive His free gift by responding to His reasonable conditions (includes faith to receive Him).

Jesus is willing, but men are not willing (Lk. 7:30; Matthew 23:37).

There is no love or relationship without free will. Free will is self-evident, so Calvinism is off the table.

Universalism is heretical and not a valid solution. It pits His love against His holiness/justice. Mercy can only be wisely extended under certain conditions (Satan will be in the lake of fire, not reconciled). Justice is reasonable for the impenitent. Those who reject Christ are also seen in the lake of fire where both are tormented day and night forever and ever.
So, reject Calvinism and universalism to remain biblical (Open Theism or Arminianism is a cogent alternative that upholds holiness and love).

very well said!

:BRAVO:

Ardima
March 23rd, 2011, 02:16 PM
Universalism is heretical and not a valid solution. It pits His love against His holiness/justice. Mercy can only be wisely extended under certain conditions (Satan will be in the lake of fire, not reconciled). Justice is reasonable for the impenitent. Those who reject Christ are also seen in the lake of fire where both are tormented day and night forever and ever.

Universal Reconciliation does not pit God's Love against His holiness/justice. I do not deny thay God is Holy, Love, or Just; however, I do deny that God's Holiness and Justice are seperate from His Love. Those who believe Universal Reconciliation believe that God's Justice comes from His love and Holiness. I believe that those who do not believe in Jesus Christ in this age will Go through terrible judgement, but judgement is never passed as an ending, it is passed as a means to reconcile the judged. God, who is holy, just, and love, will not punish someone outside of time for sins committed inside of time. That is neither loving nor just. When time ceases to exist so will all judgement and rewards.

And for the record, Universalism is totaly different than universal reconciliation. In the case of Universalism, you are right, it is heretical.

beloved57
March 23rd, 2011, 09:52 PM
ardima:


Universal reconciliation presents the God

presents a false god..

beloved57
March 23rd, 2011, 09:54 PM
Calvinism must insert words and concepts that are not in the original to retain a flawed view. Take it at face value and change your view.

For God so loved the elect vs unregenerate world?!

Calvinism limits the love of God and makes His justice arbitrary. Decretal, deterministic views ARE UNBIBLICAL.

God is only interested in His own elect not perishing, the rest of mankind He created them to perish for their sins, they are vessels of wrath..

godrulz
March 23rd, 2011, 11:40 PM
God is only interested in His own elect not perishing, the rest of mankind He created them to perish for their sins, they are vessels of wrath..

You represent hyper-Calvinism.

The rest of us represent biblical truth.

Your view of God is flawed. Go away.

Ardima
March 24th, 2011, 03:33 PM
ardima: Universal reconciliation...



presents a false god..

Let me ask you some questions. Who did Jesus Christ die for? Are you saying that he did not die for all men? are you saying that our human will to reject Christ overpowers the work that Jesus did on the cross? are you saying that a loving God who's will is that none should perish can be thwarted by the rejection of humans incapable of choosing God in the first place?

(John 3:35) The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into his hand.
(John 6:39) And this is the Father's will which has sent me, that of all which he has given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Are you calling God and Jesus a lier?

beloved57
March 24th, 2011, 10:21 PM
ard:


Let me ask you some questions. Who did Jesus Christ die for?

His Sheep, His Church, His elect..

beloved57
April 7th, 2011, 08:44 AM
The Negative consequences that dishonor God, if Christ death does not actually save all for whom Christ died ! If the unscriptural man made doctrine that Christ died for all without exception is true it:

1. Reflects poorly on the Wisdom of God in that He purposed for all mens salvation and was disappointed in that purpose, which does not say much for Christ being the Wisdom of God 1 cor 1:

24But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

2:


2For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

3And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.

4And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

5That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

6Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

2. It reflects poorly on the Justice of God, in fact it denotes Him as being unjust, to Christ and to those Christ died for [1 cor 15:3] Because He did not discharge them,,even though all their sins and transgressions were answered for by their Surety, or it would seem that the death of their Surety was enough to make a full forgiveness of sins for them.

3. This gives sinners reason to boast, for it appears that all the efficacy and success of all that Christ has accomplished has been put on hold until something is done by the sinner, something obviously Christ did not do, and so sinners become a principal in procuring their own Salvation or deliverance. Now men may fool themselves with their false humility, stating that there is nothing meritorious about accepting a gift, but the honest Truth is, if that is what made the difference in the eternal affair of being saved or Lost, then it may be accounted to their decision, their wisdom or prudence which made the difference and not Christ. They also can always feel better about themselves than their neighbor who may be lost for not being as wise as they were, which is a secret boast before God..

Zeke
April 7th, 2011, 11:03 AM
Let me ask you some questions. Who did Jesus Christ die for? Are you saying that he did not die for all men? are you saying that our human will to reject Christ overpowers the work that Jesus did on the cross? are you saying that a loving God who's will is that none should perish can be thwarted by the rejection of humans incapable of choosing God in the first place?

(John 3:35) The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into his hand.
(John 6:39) And this is the Father's will which has sent me, that of all which he has given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Are you calling God and Jesus a lier?

Yep thats what is going on, but not just with beloved most of the rest are also in the same boat, they can't see it, they point fingers at beloved but they are helping with paddling the same freewill, limited election canoe, their facing each other and paddling against each other :bang: but its the same tradistional canoe. Its all a distraction away from what God did through Jesus for all men, in due times. Ephesians 1:10-11. Christ is soveriegn over mans freewill and over death, and the gates of hades won't prevail against life. Thats the only real goodnews for man, and is the only one that truly shows the heart of God for those who are blind, naked, ignorant, prisoners of their own wills, enemies of God who uses that evil and turns it all into good through coming times :cheers:.

God will prove He is God, and not some lesser god of freewill theories that have no power to save all the:baby:, or the god of the mad professors of limited selection which aborts most of the :baby: and they say this is Gods ideal. They both lack in seeing His true nature and the power of His Love to forgive all sin and save all the :baby:. No they cry I don't want all to be saved, it isn't possible!! I refuse to except a God like that, get away from me you heritics who say such things, away with such a man Acts 22:21-22.

They believe adam has more power then his Saviour who created him and the whole universe :rotfl:.

Grace, Zeke.

beloved57
April 22nd, 2011, 07:20 PM
That God dealt specifically with the Nation of Israel, they were a type, in That he was indicating that He had a interest in a specific People, and not all people in the world. So thats why when He became incarnate, He took on the seed of a specific people ,the seed of Abraham heb 2:

16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. cp Gal 3:

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

You see, contrary to what people teach and believe, Abraham's seed is comprised of both jew and gentile if they are of Faith. Now it was necessary that He should take part of the same flesh of blood, in which His Children heb 2:

13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

had transgressed the Law in Adam, so He could legally be identified with them in their low state.

He only identified with their sins, not with the sins of all people without exception. The key for the universality of His death, is that the specific seed of Abraham was universal gen 17:

5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

beloved57
April 25th, 2011, 07:56 AM
There are many scriptures that indicate the restricted nature of Christ Death, and that is was not for all men without exception. One of the phrases that The Spirit employs is that of The Many !

Jesus spake and said in regards to His redemptive blood Matt 26:

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Now this word Many, , though it signifies a large number:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4183&t=KJV

Yet it also entails a restrictive significance, which limits its application to all men without exception. Yet due to its large quantity it signifies, it can be modified by the words all or every the adjective pas, and this is where the unlearned and unstable wrest scripture and distort scripture to their own preordained destruction or condemnation.

Now in light of this, We will set forth from scripture the use of the restrictive, but of wide scope, term Many, as it relates to objects of Christ Death. Going back first to the OT in prophesy, regarding Christ death Isa 53:

11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Dan 9:


27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Now I know this is a debatable with some, but I believe this is referring to Christ and the Shedding of His Blood for the New Covenant. The word for confirm here the word gabar and it means " To make Strong "

Now thats what Christ did in the New Covenant when He shed His Blood for the many Heb 9:

17For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

So, By His blood shed, He confirmed or gave force to the covenant for many..

The many here would be for the ingathering of the gentiles and the conversion of the elect jews post cross.

Now here are some NT references for the word Many in a context of Christ death or fruits of it. Matt 20:28

Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

So the adjective pas in 1 tim 2:6

Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

The all here modifies the many of Matt 20:28, because the Many here is comprised of all different races and classes opposed to just ethnic jews. But its still restricted to many as Jesus stated.

Mk 10:45

For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Heb 2:


9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

10For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

The Many here actually clarifies who the every is in vs 9, He tasted death for the many or every son ! The word man is not in the original, it ends with pas !

Heb 9:

28So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

This scripture too, gives light to heb 2 9, for its the same objects of His death in both references, to taste death in Heb 2 9 is the same as being once offered here in heb 9 28, and its stated that He was offered for many, the restrictive term.

Rom 5:

15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

I believe any honest heart, made so by the Spirit of God, can see the Truth of what I am stating here, its straight from the scripture.. Christ did not die for all men without exception, that cannot be substantiated with scripture.

Ardima
April 25th, 2011, 02:32 PM
There are many scriptures that indicate the restricted nature of Christ Death, and that is was not for all men without exception. One of the phrases that The Spirit employs is that of The Many !

....(body of argument ommited, please reference above)....

I believe any honest heart, made so by the Spirit of God, can see the Truth of what I am stating here, its straight from the scripture.. Christ did not die for all men without exception, that cannot be substantiated with scripture.

it was a nice attempt, but if you would actually look at the context of each scripture that you are referencing, you will see that you are mistaken. Let me explain.

You have to realize that there are two seperate things being referenced here. The verses you point out that say "many" is in relation to the Old Covenant. It in no way limits the "all" used in relation to the New Covenant... When you look at the whole picture you can see that the New Covenant was an extention of the promise of salvation to "all" (Jews and Gentiles) because the "many" (Jews) rejected The Messiah.

I wish I had the time to lay out the whole thing for everyone, but one must remember that even though the New Covenant does cover "all," it in no way negates the Old Covenant that only covers "many." And as you pointed out, a testament (will or covenant) can only be effective after death (death giving it power) This is why Jesus died for many (those under the Old Covenant) it gave power to the OC and instated a NC which also needs death to be effective..... Have you ever wondered why there is a "second" death referenced in Revelation?

To give an overview of the whole picture: the life Jesus gave covered the "many" bringing the OC into full effect, but the blood Jesus placed on the mercy seat in heaven covered "all" instating the NC which will be brought into full effect only after the "second death" occurs.... This is why Jesus' life was a ransom, and His blood was a downpayment.

beloved57
April 25th, 2011, 10:12 PM
ard:


it was a nice attempt, but if you would actually look at the context of each scripture that you are referencing, you will see that you are mistaken. Let me explain.

You Just cannot receive the Truth..

beloved57
April 26th, 2011, 05:51 AM
Now again, the religionists does away with this specific restrictive Term " The Many" and forcefully and willfully twists the terms such as all, every, world, and whole world to mean every single individual as being the objects of Christ death, when again these words should be understood within the framework or definition of the restrictive term "The Many". Thats because a very Large number from out of every ethnic group around or throughout the world will comprise the restricted Many. Basically, the Many is restricted to the Seed of Abraham, which is comprised of all the people of Faith around and throughout the World, because Abraham was made a Father of Many Nations Gen 17:


5Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

And Christ Identified with that People Heb 2:

16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

And all that belong to Christ by Faith, regardless of race, nationality are the seed of Abraham gal 3:

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Ardima
April 26th, 2011, 01:06 PM
ard:



You Just cannot receive the Truth..

I was not explaining away anything... In fact, I explained why both are there and mean exactly what they say. You are picking and choosing what verses you wish to use. I fail to see where a single verse Galatians (Written specifically to Gentiles) can be used to support a claim made in Hebrews (written specifically to the Jews) when it should be painfully obvious why the book is call Hebrews in the first place. Besides that fact, when Jesus walked the earth, He was focused on the Jews, thus even He was talking about the many under the Old Covenant. The only thing He did was tell the Jews that they would reject Him and that he would make a Covenant that would extend to the Gentiles because of that rejection.

You are right in claiming that God made many nations out of Abram; however, nations is not the same as types of people.... Noah was the one to give birth to many types of people-- his family was the only one to survive the flood-- but Noah did not give birth to many "nations." Abraham was the father of twelve sons, and there were twelve tribes (nations) named after these sons. I should not have to remind you of this....

You claim that I can't accept the truth, but you are the one twisting the meaning of words in order to fit verses into your perspective. you can't seem to handle the fact that when the bible says "all" it means "all", and when it says "many" it means "many" without either compromising the meaning of the other.

The problem most people have is that they love to claim they are rightly dividing scripture when instead they are doing the opposite and wrongly joining scripture. There is a reason scripture must be divided and not joined.... just something to think about.

beloved57
April 28th, 2011, 07:32 AM
ardima:


I was not explaining away anything

Oh yes you were..

coulter4president
April 28th, 2011, 08:30 AM
That God dealt specifically with the Nation of Israel, they were a type, in That he was indicating that He had a interest in a specific People, and not all people in the world. So thats why when He became incarnate, He took on the seed of a specific people ,the seed of Abraham heb 2:

16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. cp Gal 3:

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

You see, contrary to what people teach and believe, Abraham's seed is comprised of both jew and gentile if they are of Faith. Now it was necessary that He should take part of the same flesh of blood, in which His Children heb 2:

13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

had transgressed the Law in Adam, so He could legally be identified with them in their low state.

He only identified with their sins, not with the sins of all people without exception. The key for the universality of His death, is that the specific seed of Abraham was universal gen 17:

5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

God chose the nation of Israel to be the perveyors of His Word in the same way that God chooses priests for His Church (Roman Catholic and all those that don't stray too far from the RCC teachings)... As the Word says, we are a "holy priesthood, a people (nation) set apart.. but this was said about the Christian church, not just Israel... "God is not willing that any should perish but that all should [come to Him]"

it makes no sense whatsoever that God would only want some people saved and not others...

"God is no respector of persons"

In the Old Testament it speaks of punishing people for certain sins... but other than that, God never approved of harming people just because they were not Hebrews... In fact, He commanded that the alien be treated w/ rrespect... becus, as He told the Israelities,"you were once an alien."

beloved57
April 28th, 2011, 08:56 AM
coulter:


God chose the nation of Israel to be the perveyors of His Word in the same way that God chooses priests for His Church (Roman Catholic and all those that don't stray too far from the RCC teachings)...

Rabbit Trail..

beloved57
April 28th, 2011, 10:53 AM
Made like unto His Brethren !

Heb 2:17

Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

This scripture if understood aright, teaches against the false Ideal that Christ died for all men without exception.

Yes, He was made like unto His Brethren. What Brethren ? Rom 8:

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

The predestinated ones. He was their brother, before He was made like unto them in His incarnation, and so they were His brethren before He died for them in the flesh. Many of them did not even exist yet at that time, save only in the Mind and Purpose of God. Now we are not talking about his brethren according to the flesh, or ethnicity, or biologically, for many of the biological jews did not even have God as their Father as per Jn 8:42

Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

But all those by Eternal Purpose who God predestined to be conformed to His Image, that He may be the First Born of many Brethren, even all the Children of Promise, not of the jews only, but also the gentile..

He was made like unto them, and them only, that He might be a merciful High Priest to them, and them only, and that He might make reconciliation for their sins [The People] and theirs only..

coulter4president
April 30th, 2011, 11:13 AM
coulter:



Rabbit Trail..

only to those with closed minds who dont care about any truth that doesn't conform to their own subjective, prejudiced, taught-thro-brainwashing truth...

coulter4president
April 30th, 2011, 11:15 AM
God had to choose SOME group to become his future priests (nation of holy pepole)

the Roman Catholic Church teaches that we are all, after baptism, Priest, Prophet and King

we just cannot all perform the duties of the ministerial priesthood...

beloved57
May 1st, 2011, 04:45 PM
Exactly who did Jesus Christ die for ? Was it for every person to ever live, or did died only for the ones the Father had Chosen to save ? Was His mission for coming to make Salvation a possibility for everyone, ore was it to actually guarantee the Salvation of the Elect by His death Rom 8:33-34.

This matter of the extent of Christ death is of momentous importance, to the point of even determining if we are in a saved or lost condition; for it is linked up with what Christ actually did when He died and rose again. Scripture is more than clear that Christ died for all that shall believe in Him Jn 17:20, those who the Father Chose and whom the Holy Spirit brings to Faith or the belief of the Truth 2 Thess 2:13. This understanding of Christ only have died for the elect can be called Victorious Atonement or Redemption. The Whole Godhead is involved in the Salvation of the Elect, the Three Beings in the Trinity having convened in the Counsel of the Everlasting Covenant Heb 13:20, Each Being having a very special role. Understanding this will give evidence of a Victorious Atonement and to give God all the Glory for Salvation, to whom alone it is due.

beloved57
May 1st, 2011, 05:29 PM
Now in this counsel, God the Father is the Primary Being who purposed Redemption, for it was He who chose who would be saved and redeemded Eph 1:3-11, He foreordained His Son 1 Pet 1:20; Rev 13:8; in time sent Him into the world 1 Jn 4:14, and in doing so, the Father punished Christ for the sins of all those He loved and had chosen Isa 53:6,8,10 and rasised Him from the dead acts 3:26; Rom 10:9, and finally exalted Him to His right hand, and all Acts 2:33;5:31. All this was from Purposed by the Father from Eternity..

beloved57
May 3rd, 2011, 09:52 AM
People who Christ did not die for and in the place of are going to die in their sins, those sins that broke God's law. All sinners whom Christ did not die for are still responsible to God and held accountable for every sin against Him and His Holiness, because He is their Creator. For the strength of sin is the Law 1Cor 15:56.

However all for whom Christ died for, by His Body, have died once and for all to the Law Rom 7:

4Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

This verse assures all those who Christ died for shall be married to Christ, that is they shall receive a spiritual life that is indicative of having died to the law with Christ. This is not because of their Faith or repentance that they are dead to the Law, but by the Body of Christ. see Gal 2:19

Yes, in the literal body body of Christ, though in a mystical way, their surety, they [all for whom Christ died] have suffered the extreme penalty of God's Most Holy Law, and that Law can no more punish them for their sins again, no more than the state can execute the law on a criminal that is already dead.

So all for whom Christ died are dead to the law, secure as a dead man against the Legal vengeance that awaits all those who Christ died not die for, for through His death, we have been delivered from the wrath to come. Rom 5:9 & 1 Thess 1:10

This has absolutely nothing to do with one's believing it or receiving it[The knowledge of it] by Faith, though that will
occur, but solely resting upon the Death or Blood of Christ.

We may sum it like this" The Church, because of her own legal death upon the cross within her Head, she has escaped the dominion of her first husband, the Law, so now in a new resurrected life [regeneration] she may be married to another, even to Him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God..

But those who Christ did not for, they have much to fear in that day, for they are under dominion of the Law..

beloved57
May 5th, 2011, 08:56 AM
As we have stated that God the Father is the Primary Divine Being who Purposed victorious Salvation or Redemption, Now we see that God the Son, the Word made Flesh [Jn 1:1,14] is the Primary Being who Victoriously accomplished Salvation or the Atonement via His Cross. For He willingly took on the Role of Mediator [1Tim 2:5;Phil 2:6-8; 2 Cor 8:9]

Now God the Spirit is the Primary Being who applies victorious redemption. He through His renewing work of the New Birth, convicts the elect world of sin, righteousness and Judgment Jn 16:7-11; 2 Thess 2:13. He shall bring each elect vessel of mercy to belief in the Truth as it is in Christ Jesus. He applies or gives Life unto them Jn 6:63; Jn 3:3-8, and He is given as a pledge of their inheritance Eph 1:14;4:30, and so concurs with the Father and the Son in their distinctive roles and the objects of their Eternal Love. It would be remiss if I did not mention His involvement with the Lord's Birth Matt 1:18;Lk 1:35, His death or offering of Himself Heb 9:14; and His resurrection 1 Pet 3:18; along with His Ministry Lk 4:14

So Salvation is made Certain to All for Whom Christ died, by the Work of the Spirit, this is victorious redemption or salvation..

coulter4president
May 5th, 2011, 11:20 AM
Exactly who did Jesus Christ die for ? Was it for every person to ever live, or did died only for the ones the Father had Chosen to save ? Was His mission for coming to make Salvation a possibility for everyone, ore was it to actually guarantee the Salvation of the Elect by His death Rom 8:33-34.

This matter of the extent of Christ death is of momentous importance, to the point of even determining if we are in a saved or lost condition; for it is linked up with what Christ actually did when He died and rose again. Scripture is more than clear that Christ died for all that shall believe in Him Jn 17:20, those who the Father Chose and whom the Holy Spirit brings to Faith or the belief of the Truth 2 Thess 2:13. This understanding of Christ only have died for the elect can be called Victorious Atonement or Redemption. The Whole Godhead is involved in the Salvation of the Elect, the Three Beings in the Trinity having convened in the Counsel of the Everlasting Covenant Heb 13:20, Each Being having a very special role. Understanding this will give evidence of a Victorious Atonement and to give God all the Glory for Salvation, to whom alone it is due.

frankly I am bored w/ intellectual conversations about the details of Jesus...

it seems the more we talk about HIm and intellectualize about what He said and etc.. it just tends to distance us from who He really is and how we need to wrok on gettin closer to Him...

Once i fond His Presence in the Catholic Church, i lost all desire to intellectualize and "search" for ... whatever.. i found Him..

and that's where anyone can find Him.. tangibly...

in other words, He is totally there... not just in some mental way...

I live in an area where most people dont spend much time w/ Jesus in the Real Presenc... and even if i didn't know this area... say i was new to the area... i would be able to tell by the way people act... its basically OSAS City... ppl commit sins against their neighbors bcus... they figure they are saved no matter what they do... (I'm generalizing)...

its creepy...

so i try to go to Mass as often as possible... socialize w/ ppl who dont believe in that illogical stuff...

anyhow... i kinda 4got the original point... just like me...

Oh, about intellectualizing Jesus...

Once you know someone you dont want to intellectualize the person's ... well, anything about the person...

And when that Person Loves you u/conditionally... well... you are that much less inclined to give a rip about intellectualizing...

coulter4president
May 5th, 2011, 04:09 PM
i guess others agree..

no one is arguing

godrulz
May 5th, 2011, 04:16 PM
i guess others agree..

no one is arguing

Talk about jumping to the wrong conclusion.

coulter4president
May 5th, 2011, 04:18 PM
Talk about jumping to the wrong conclusion.

Talk about jumping to the wrong conclusion that someone is jumping to the wrong conclusion

beloved57
May 6th, 2011, 07:14 AM
coul:


frankly I am bored w/ intellectual conversations about the details of Jesus...

Who cares what you are bored with ?

beloved57
May 31st, 2011, 07:02 PM
1 Cor 15:3-4

3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

This means old testament types serve as an enlightenment on the extent and efficacy of Christ atoning death.

Remember what Paul wrote 1 Tim 3:16

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correctionn, for instruction in righteousness:

We will be looking at from scripture the doctrine of atonement.

Lets look at Noah's Ark, a type of Christ. 1 Pet 3:20-21

20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:


No doubt this is a clear and unmistakable reference to Noah and the Ark passing through the judgmental flood in connection with the atoning death and justifying resurrection of Jesus Christ. The pattern of the Ark was given to Noah in minute detail by the Sovereign LORD (Gen. 6:14-16). Now the question is, was the ark adequate in size to allow for all who were living on the earth at that time? We all surely know the answer to that.

It was not God's purpose to save all of Mankind in the Ark, but only Noah and his family, and seeing there is no negligible quantity in The LORD, all the room and sufficiency sovereignly fitted in the ark for flood survival was fully put to use. Noah was "a preacher of righteousness," and while the ark was "a preparing," Noah preached Christ by emblem and sermon; for to preach righteousness is to preach Christ, for He is the believer’s justifying righteousness (1 Cor. 1:30; 2 Cor.5:21).

No doubt during this long period of one hundred and twenty years of Ark building, Noah admonished others as he was warned of God (Heb 11:7). However, only seven believed his report and they were of his own house (Gen 7:1). Then God brought judgment upon the world of the ungodly and they perished in the flood (2 Pet 2:5). The Noachian household is a type of the household of God (Eph 2:19), and Christ, the anti type of the Ark (Acts 4:12) and Head "over His own house" (Heb. 3:6), has made adequate room for His family and none else. Christ is the Sovereign who having eternally loved His progeny, He made room for them and them alone in ark of His mercy and grace. The Ark as a type was not given to us in abbreviated fashion, but in minute thoroughness, and every detail points to Christ.

Atonement sufficiency is founded in God’s forelove, and Christ loves only those who were given to Him by the Father in the covenant of redemption (Jer 31:3 ; John 13:1 , 17:6 ; Rom. 8:37). In the redemptive design there is no such thing as uncovenanted love, and hence no universal atonement sufficiency.

The Ark was a divine arrangement made before the waters of judgment fell from heaven, and in building the Ark, Noah followed the Divine specifications with exactitude. "Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him,’ so did he" (Gen. 6:22). There was not one extra cubic inch in the completion of the Ark, nor was there any wasted space. The sufficiency of the Ark was according to God’s purpose, and His elective purpose was to save only eight souls from the flood (1 Pet 3:20).

In like manner, Jesus Christ was furnished by God before the foundation of the world to deliver His people from the storm of judgment of the wrath to come (1 Pet 1:20; 1 Thess 1:10). Christ’s mission to this earth, as was the Ark, was according in every detail to the necessity of His people, and not one thing wrought by the atoning death of Christ was extended beyond those for whom He died. The sufficiency and efficiency of Christ’s offering was eternally concluded to the elect of God, and there was no redemptive sufficiency for the rest. The purpose of atoning sufficiency must be determined by its achievement, and it has none beyond "the Church of God, and the sheep of His hand..." (Acts 20:28; Ps 95:7).

This Type is especially instructive since The Lord compares the time of His return with that of the days of Noah, Matt 24:37-38

37But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

beloved57
June 6th, 2011, 06:38 PM
New Testament Testimony is as vital as OT types as to understanding whom Christ died for. I just showed from OT Type, the Ark, that God designed the Salvation of a few People through the Ark which typified Christ. 1 Pet 3:20

Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Jesus says in General about how many are going to be saved Luke 13:

22And he went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem.

23Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,

24Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Now notice how Matthew writes this response of Christ Matt 7:13-14

13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Christ knew the extent of those He would be saving. In Looking at the New Testament we see no less than in the types of the Old, a specific design and purpose declared in the birth and death of Christ. The Angel declares to Joseph Matt 1:21

21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Here is a special purpose announced in regards to Christ coming into the world, namely that He should be manifested as a Saviour; For He shall save His People from their sins. Here is a special people [ the foreknown Rom 8:29;11:2] the antitype of National Israel, a People He already knew as His, as His Sheep John 10:14,16, that are to be saved, and a special salvation with which they are to be saved, and so there is nothing in these words that warrant us the notion of a general salvation opportunity for all, which is no salvation unless persons make it so by delivering themselves by their own freewill from their sins; But on the contrary, everything is stated to be positive, He shall save His People, and shall save them from their sins [ Because they are sinners], and His name is Jesus or Saviour, because He shall save His special People with a Special Salvation. God told the Antitypical People this Deut 7:6

For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

These are those Chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world Eph 1:4

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

None can be Special to God outside of Christ. Now if we were to take the Angel, the Heavenly Messenger at His word, we would know the extent of Christ death and mission into the world, and who He came to save from their sins. It was a specific people, not everyone without exception !

beloved57
July 5th, 2011, 07:36 AM
Rev 13:1

And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

Rev 17:3

So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.



The Teaching that Jesus Christ died for all mankind without exception, and yet many of them are in hell, or are on their way there, that He died for, is Blasphemy. It is Blasphemy against the Entire Godhead, The Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

I don't believe there is a more insulting teaching against God in all the world than this Blasphemy. It also is perhaps the Most Popular Teaching worldwide.

What I am speaking of, is that teaching which teaches that the Lord Jesus Christ actually died to make salvation only possible for all mankind.

He is taught to have shed His blood to only make His Salvation possible, and it did not make certain or ensure the Salvation of any. So the shedding of the Blood of Christ did not ensure no ones Salvation !

The ramifications of such an insult against the blood of atonement is huge and many. The Primary consequence of this impiety is that it designates man as his own Saviour, his own Redeemer !

They are Saved or Redeemed ultimately not by what the Blood did or accomplished, but what they did. Thats a Blasphemy !

beloved57
July 6th, 2011, 10:00 AM
This blasphemy of The Lord Jesus Christ merely making Salvation possible for all Mankind, Means that ultimately, that men are not saved By the Obedience of One as the Gospel declares in Rom 5:19

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Yes, to be made Righteous before God is being saved ! How cometh this being made Righteous, by the obedience [Death of Christ] of One or Two ? If Christ death alone does not constitute the Ones He died for Saved or Righteous, then it must be by the obedience of two, which is contrary to this scripture, which is the Word of God ! Thats a Blasphemy !

beloved57
July 8th, 2011, 07:37 AM
Isa 9:6

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Paul wrote, that "Christ died for our sins according to the scripture "

This no doubt is one of the many OT scriptures that shows us exactly who the us and our sins belongs !

Now who are the US in the Isa passage ? I am certain we know who the Child is to be born, the Son to be given . Its Christ. And it has to do with His coming to die for sins.

But again, who are the US ? Is it the whole world without exception ? Is that who Isaiah meant ? Or does He mean a specific People ? I contend that it's to a specific people. Isaiah is writing to the Israelites, the Chosen People of God, he is not writing the egyptians, or the assyrians, the babylonians, but the Chosen Covenant People of God. In fact, when Christ was actually born, the spiritual minded recognized that Christ coming, birth, was in relation to a Covenant Promise. Lk 1:67-73

67And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,

68Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

69And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;

70As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

71That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;

72To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

73The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

So, also the Us in Isa 9:6 is the Seed of Abraham !

The Israelites of the OT were a Type, a Picture of Spiritual Israel. Now Spiritual Israel is in existence today as it was then, difference being, that Spiritual Israel then was mainly comprised of the physical descendants of Abraham of National Israel, not so today. I believe everyone Chosen in Christ Eph 1:4, the Spiritual seed of Abraham Gal 3:16 belongs to Spiritual Israel, and all these have been Chosen to Life Eternal. Without question I believe it is the Spiritual Israelites that is meant in the US in our verse Isa 9:6. Christ is born unto all whom He is born into Col 1:27;Gal 4:19.

The US is also the Church, Isa was writing to the OT Church, that is those Spiritual Israelites that for the most part resided in that Nation at that time, but it is also applicable to the NT Church at this present time. Eph 5:25

Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

beloved57
September 5th, 2011, 08:58 PM
A Union when Christ died !


Eph 5:25-32 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Eph%205.25-32)


25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

27That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

28So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

29For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

30For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

31For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

32This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

If understood properly, Paul is stating that Christ was in Union, was One with His Church, when He died or gave Himself for Her, just as a Husband is One and in Union with His wife. Paul points that out in vs 32, it was a Mystery, and a Mystery of the Gospel See Eph 6:19 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Eph%206.19)

Now when eve Transgressed, was she not already one with Adam ? If so, Christ was also One with His Church when He gave Himself for Her, or else there is no corresponding analogy in the one to the other, but Paul indicates that it was. If Christ gave Himself for the Church vs 25, His betrothed Bride, then evidently it was His Church before He gave Himself for it, which means He was in Union with sinners before He died for them, those sinners that composed His Church. Now ask yourself this question, were all sinners in the world without exception composed of His Church ? No..

beloved57
January 1st, 2012, 11:15 PM
John 17:9

9I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

In John 17:9 The Lord Jesus Christ in His Mediatoral Prayer, makes Intercession, not for everyone without exception, but only for those given to Him see Jn 6:37 also, which points back to His Sheep Jn 10:29

29My Father, which gave them[The Sheep] me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

In addition such statements as Matt 1:21

21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Jn 10:11,15

11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep

Jn 17:2

2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

All these prove without a shadow of doubt the Limited intention of Christ's Death, and the limited objects of His Love !

Grosnick Marowbe
January 2nd, 2012, 02:34 AM
John 17:9

9I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

In John 17:9 The Lord Jesus Christ in His Mediatoral Prayer, makes Intercession, not for everyone without exception, but only for those given to Him see Jn 6:37 also, which points back to His Sheep Jn 10:29

29My Father, which gave them[The Sheep] me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

In addition such statements as Matt 1:21

21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Jn 10:11,15

11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep

Jn 17:2

2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

All these prove without a shadow of doubt the Limited intention of Christ's Death, and the limited objects of His Love !

I see your still up to your old "shenanigans," "Savedbygrace57..." I mean "beloved57" excuse me...

tudorturtl
January 2nd, 2012, 02:50 AM
Another popular Myth in the religious world today, is the Jesus Christ died or gave His Life for everyone in the world without exception, but the problem with that, is there is not one shred of scripture evidence that states that.

The scripture however does say that He died for His Sheep or His Church as per Jn 10:

11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

eph 5:

25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

His People Isa 53:

8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. cp Matt 1:21

Now, are all without exception His Sheep ? No

Are all without exception His Church ? No

Are all without exception His People ? No

For surely the seed of the serpent Gen 3:15 cannot be of His Sheep, His Church, or His People.

So why does the religous world proclaim that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception, when they have no scripture proof ? Because it is a Myth.

He died for the sins of the whole world, but only saves those who "choose" to believe, because if we don't believe in him we can not Love him. and now we obey him,not to seem righteous before men, but because we love him. To see his righteousness is to realize my own sin and repent.
was it not the thief on the cross, to whom he promised paradise?

Grosnick Marowbe
January 2nd, 2012, 02:57 AM
He died for the sins of the whole world, but only saves those who "choose" to believe, because if we don't believe in him we can not Love him. and now we obey him,not to seem righteous before men, but because we love him. To see his righteousness is to realize my own sin and repent.
was it not the thief on the cross, to whom he promised paradise?

Finally someone else who speaks truth...Amen...

rstrats
January 2nd, 2012, 07:14 AM
tudorturtl,

re: “He died for the sins of the whole world, but only saves those who ‘choose’ to believe...”


Are you saying that you think that a person has the ability to consciously CHOOSE to believe things?

beloved57
January 2nd, 2012, 08:22 AM
tud


He died for the sins of the whole world, but only saves those who "choose" to believe

Then His dying for sins does not save anyone, but their choosing to believe does, thats works salvation, being saved by what man does !

beloved57
January 7th, 2012, 05:53 PM
John 3:16

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Eph 5:25


25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

Folks the World that God Loved and Gave His Son for, is the Church that Christ Loved and gave Himself for !

Lets do a word study here. The word for world is the greek word kosmos and means:

an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government

2) ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars, 'the heavenly hosts', as the ornament of the heavens. 1 Pet. 3:3

3) the world, the universe

4) the circle of the earth, the earth

5) the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family

6) the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ

7) world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly

a) the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ

8) any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort

a) the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc)

Notice, that the world is any aggregate or general collection of particulars of ANY SORT !

We cannot ignore these definition.

Now what is this word aggregate mean ? Our english dictionary says:

formed by the conjunction or collection of particulars into a whole mass or sum; total; combined


a sum, mass, or assemblage of particulars; a total or gross amount:

Now notice the word assemblage as in assemblage of particulars. The word means:

a group of persons or things gathered or collected; an assembly; collection; aggregate.

Now I derive at this from a simple study of the word world !

Now lets look at the word Church in Eph 5:25. It is the greek word ekklēsia and means:

a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly

a) an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating

b) the assembly of the Israelites

c) any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance, tumultuously

d) in a Christian sense

1) an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting


the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth

5) the assembly of faithful Christians already dead and received into heaven

The Church is an assemblage ! And an Assemblage as we see is also a World !

So the World of Jn 3:16 that God so Loved, was none other than the Church that Christ Loved and gave Himself fr !

The total collection and gathering of the sum total of all the Sheep as Jn 10:16

16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.


Yes, this One Fold of Sheep is the World God so loved !

So the word world does not have to mean everyone without exception !

The assembly of the Israelites alone technically by definition is a World ! The Assembly of the Spiritual Israelites, the Israel of God is a World !

beloved57
January 30th, 2012, 04:37 AM
2 Cor 5:21


21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

This scripture here when properly understood, teaches that Christ did not die for everyone in the world without exception. The being made sin here speaks to Him being made a sin offering, as Isa 53 stated it here Isa 53:10

Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

And so, Paul says to the Corinthian Church this 1 Cor 15:3

3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

And so, who are the Our Sins Christ died for ? Why its the same ones Paul says later on in the second letter to the same, those who Christ was made sin in behalf of, and those are made the Righteousness of God in Him. So there you have it, we see who it is Christ died for, them only who are made Righteous See Rom 5:19b. Now are all men without exception made Righteous ? Then the Extent of Christ's Death could not have been for all men without exception ! It was for His Church which He Loved and gave Himself for Eph 5:25-27

25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

So He was made sin for the Church, His Body !

beloved57
March 23rd, 2012, 07:58 PM
We know that Jesus Christ did not die for everyone without exception because by His Death or Offering, He has sanctified all for whom He was offered in behalf of permanently, once and for all ! Heb 10:10

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Now can this be said of all without exception ? Is it true of the workers of Iniquity that Jesus will say this to Matt 7:23

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Do you really believe that these were sanctified once and for all by His Offering, or His Death , for His Offering and Death are the same thing you know ! His Death is a expiational Offering !

Now if Christ died for them He is speaking to in Matt 7:23, then they can say while in everlasting Fire, that I too have been sanctified once and for all by Christ's Death ! You see how inconsistent that is with the Lie that Christ died for all without exception ?

beloved57
July 29th, 2012, 05:07 PM
Even though I know many cannot and will not receive this Truth, because they believe the lie that Christ died for all men, making all men without exception redeemable, nevertheless Redemption in Christ is limited to a Chosen People Eph 1:7

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Now who are the we Paul is Identifying Himself with ? Its the Chosen of God Eph 1:3-4

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

That this Redemption God provides is for only for a Elect People is seen in the OT Scriptures, which gives a Divine Command Ps 130:7-8

7 Let Israel hope in the Lord: for with the Lord there is mercy, and with him is plenteous redemption.

8 And he shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities.

This is the Redemption the old Saint referred to here Lk 1:68

Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

This speaking of Jesus Christ, the Head of His Body the Church Titus 2:14

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Compare this scripture with Ps 130:8

And he shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities.

I know many will reject this clear Truth ! And Yes,m this means Israel of Ps 130:7-8 is the Church of Titus 2:14 !

beloved57
July 30th, 2012, 08:07 AM
Jer 50:20

In those days, and in that time, saith the LORD, the iniquity of Israel shall be sought for, and there shall be none; and the sins of Judah, and they shall not be found: for I will pardon them whom I reserve.

This also speaks to Particular Redemption, for Pardon comes through Redemption as Per Eph 1:7

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

The word forgiveness is the greek word aphesis:

release from bondage or imprisonment

2) forgiveness or pardon, of sins (letting them go as if they had never been committed), remission of the penalty

And of course we know Eph 1:7 is speaking of the Chosen in Christ Eph 1:4

Mich 7:18

18 Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy.

You see, pardoneth of the remnant, not all mankind, and this is speaking of God's Mercy, but its restricted, and so Paul writes Rom 9:18

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

He is particular about who He has mercy and pardon on !

Rom 11:4

4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

You see that ? I have reserved to myself ! Thats God's Freewill doing that !

We never truly worship the True God of Heaven until we understand this !

beloved57
July 30th, 2012, 09:52 PM
That Jesus did not come to save all men without exception, nor to call them to Himself, is plainly intimated here Lk 5:32

32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

There is a certain segment that He did not come to call to Himself. His Purpose for them was to make blind, or to confirm them in their delusions John 9:39

39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

This verse alone should convince us that some are made vessels of wrath to be fitted for destruction ! The others, He came that they might see, in other words, the Children of the Covenant will have their blind spiritual eyes opened to See Jesus as their Saviour ! Isa 42:6-7

6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

beloved57
August 14th, 2012, 03:54 PM
One of the many scriptures that the antichrist crowd twist to teach that Jesus Christ did die for the sins of every single individual in the world without exception is this one Jn 1:29

29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

But this scripture says nothing of the sort.

When John here spoke of Christ being that Lamb that taketh away the sin of the World, He was speaking of an Elect World, the Church of Christ in Fact of Eph 5:25, and that according to promise. Its the World of God's Elect Israel and Judah as Per Jer 50:20

In those days, and in that time, saith the LORD, the iniquity of Israel shall be sought for, and there shall be none; and the sins of Judah, and they shall not be found: for I will pardon them whom I reserve.

The World of His New Covenant People of which Christ is the Mediator of Heb 8:6-12

6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Vs 12 here confirms what is promised in Jer 50:20, Their sins and iniquities will not be found, the reason why, they have been taken away by the Lamb of God Jn 1:29, the Mediator of the New Covenant Heb 8:6

The House of Israel and Judah in Heb 8:8 and Jer 50:20 are spiritually referring to the elect jews and elect gentiles, and that constitutes the World of Jn 1:29 !

beloved57
September 4th, 2012, 02:20 PM
Jn 17:9

9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.

In and throughout this prayer of intercession, it is Christ praying to the Father, that as many as He has been given, and that He should lay down His Life in behalf of, that they receive the full benefit of it; for He having on their behalf, satisfied all of God's Law and Justice, for all their Transgressions Isa 53:5 against His Holy Law; and so it is, when He says in Jn 17:9, " I pray not for the World", meaning all mankind without exception, He is openly acknowledging that it is not for the world of mankind in general that He is to die for, and so it was not for mankind in general that He prayed that it would receive the Redemptive benefits of His Death !

beloved57
September 5th, 2012, 10:12 AM
If Christ in Jn 17:9 was acting as High Priest, and no doubt He was since He was about to sacrifice Himself Jn 17:19

19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

Note: This Sanctification denotes His Death !

This being the case, He would be performing the duties of the High Priest in His Prayer in Jn 17:9, its called intercession Heb 7:25-26, Now since Christ expressly said, that He intercedes not in behalf of the whole world of mankind in general, then there is no ground whatsoever to say that His Sacrificial death of Himself Jn 17:19 was for mankind in general ! It's pretty simple, since He did not intercede for everyone without exception, then He did not die for everyone without exception, and when He said here Jn 17:9,19,20 still applies to day !

To preach that Christ died or sacrificed Himself for the whole world without exception, for everyone in that sense, is preaching a false Gospel !

beloved57
September 5th, 2012, 09:56 PM
Christ has already stated specifically for whom He laid down His life for, do you believe Him is the question ? Jn 10:11-15

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.

13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Therefore the OUR SINS in 1 Cor 15:3 would refer to the Sheep !

Christ says that He knows His Sheep Vs 14 which we understand to meaneth He foreknew them all Rom 11:2

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

And it should also be made clear that one does not have to be a believer in Christ to be one of His Sheep, for this is understood by Christ statement ' Other Sheep I have that are not of this fold [ethnic jews, but of the gentiles also] of which He says, them also I must bring, and they SHALL HEAR MY VOICE, which is the Gospel of their Salvation, and by that Hearing, Faith comes. Jn 10:16

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

At that time, those Sheep in the gentiles, were unbelievers and Idolaters, but they were still His Sheep that He had. He had them because the Father had gave them to Him, and this ensured that they would Hear His Voice and Believe, another way of saying what He said in Jn 6:37

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

They are given to Christ before they come to Him or Believe in Him !

Yet many deceivers would have us believe that one is not a Sheep of Christ until after they believe, which has now been proven to be error, a lie, by Christ's very words ! " Other Sheep I have" yet being uncalled by the Gospel as of yet to Gospel Faith and Obedience.

Note: Even the unbelieving Sheep are never the goats, that shall hear this words soon Matt 25:33,41

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

And it is a lie, and cannot be supported by scripture that Christ laid down His Life for the goats , and He never said He did !

beloved57
October 16th, 2012, 12:09 AM
Particular Salvation for the Children !



Heb 2:14-16 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Heb%202.14-16)

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

There is just no way to preach the True Gospel without emphasis on whose sins Christ died for, and it certainly was not for the sins of all men without exception, for scripture never particularly states that, however on many occasions it does particularly states exactly for whom Christ died for or gave Himself for, for instance here in Eph 5:25 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Eph%205.25), the inspired testimony here is that He particularly gave Himself as an Offering for the Church !

Now lets look at another passage that specifically states whom Christ died for Heb 2:14-16 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Heb%202.14-16), The Children, for notice it reads " for the Children took part of flesh and blood" both in their, both in their Federal Natural Head Adam at Creation, and individually at their own physical birth, He [ Their Head Spiritually] took on the same, that is a Physical Existence in Flesh and Blood, and fir what purpose, it was to deliver them [The Children], for He came to specifically, and particularly deliver or release them from the fear of death, and the way He did that was for their sake abolish Death altogether 2 Tim 1:10 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/2%20Tim%201.10)

10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

Note: None for whom Christ died shall ever see Death, because it has for them been abolished !

So its impossible for anyone Christ died for to ever experience this Rev 20:14 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Rev%2020.14)

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

beloved57
October 16th, 2012, 12:11 AM
Particular Salvation for the Children ! cont



So Death has been abolished for the Children, those whom Christ died for !Now more into the definiteness who the Children are that Christ came and took on Flesh and Blood in behalf of ! Is it all Humanity without exception ? No it is NOT, for the Children are those given to Christ in Election Heb 2:13 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Heb%202.13),16 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Heb%202.16)

13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

And secondly the Children are the Seed of Abraham Vs 16

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Bingo, this tells us specifically that it was not for the Human Race without exception that Christ came to deliver from the fear of Death, but for a specific seed.

As it is written in many translations it reads like this:

For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham.

For verily not to angels doth he give help, but he giveth help to the seed of Abraham.

Thats simply is the Elect of the World of mankind ! It is God's Elect People out of all Nations Gen 17:5 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Gen%2017.5)

5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

God gave Abraham a Seed in the Gentile Nations; Now lets look at Rom 4:16 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Rom%204.16)

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

And so that is who is meant in Heb 2:16 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Heb%202.16) the seed of Abraham ! All the Seed of Abraham Rom 4:16 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Rom%204.16) is whom Christ particularly came to save, and no others !

beloved57
October 16th, 2012, 08:15 AM
Heb 2:13

13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

Again these are the same Children that Christ came to Identify with and deliver from death in Heb 2:14 and that are the seed of Abraham in Vs 16 !

These are the Children or the seed God gave to Christ in Divine Election Eph 1:4, and they are also the same ones Jesus refers to here Jn 17:2,6

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

Jesus says similar of His Sheep, "thou gavest them me" Jn 10:29

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

And as in the Heb 2 passage, He came to die for them, so likewise in Jn 17:19

19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself or Die as an Offering, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

He came to sanctify Himself which means His Offering Himself and as The High priest to Offer Himself Upon the Altar of God's Judgment for them !

Now as Children given Him Heb 2:13, they are His Seed, those referred to here Isa 53:10

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

Thats the Pleasure of the Lord, to See His Seed saved and Converted because Christ was made an Offering for sin for them and them only !

beloved57
October 23rd, 2012, 05:02 PM
A scripture or passage that does teach the definite or particular redemption is Gal 4:4-5

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Notice for whom Christ came to specifically to redeem ' To redeem them that were under the Law [a specific people] that we [those under the law] might receive the Adoption of Sons ! Now what can be more particular than this phraseology used by the Spirit of God through the chosen Apostle, Paul says that WE [Believers] who were under the Law, might receive the Adoption of Sons [New Birth]. Now this Adoption was predestinated to occur Eph 1:4-5, and who was it that was predestinated to the Adoption of Sons ? It was the Chosen in Christ before the foundation, Eph 1:4 So this confirms the definite intention of Redemption for a definite People !

beloved57
January 4th, 2013, 07:36 AM
That the scriptures teaches limited atonement or Particular redemption of some is seen here Jn 11:50-52

50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

What is being stated here,is who Christ is to die for, Caiaphas speaking by inspiration of the Spirit is saying, Christ is to die for God's People, Sheep in the Nation of Israel, but not those Sheep only, but also for His Sheep or Children of God all over the World. Basically whats being said is the same as what Jesus said before in Chapter 10 Jn 10:15-16

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

The bringing together of the Sheep here in Vs 16 and the gathering of the Children of God in Vs 52 are the same and is accomplished by the Death of Christ.

The objects of His Death are His Sheep or the Children of God, nothing about all mankind without exception, that has been introduced by false teaching of those who oppose the Truth !

The Children of God are manifested as to who they are by God given Faith Gal 3:26

For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

So in the end,only believers in Christ are those whom Christ died for, all the Children of God !

That means those who remain in unbelief were not those Christ died for, and were not the Children of God but Children of the devil ! 1 Jn 3:10

In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

beloved57
January 16th, 2013, 10:45 PM
The Death of the Lord Jesus Christ was not and could not have been valid for none but those who by Divine Election were Chosen in Christ before the foundation Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen [for Himself] us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

And thus had a Pre - Union with Christ, else God's Justice could not have permitted His Death for them.

This Pre - Union also had to be the case for all whom sinned and died in Adam or again God's Justice could not have permitted it.

If we receive the Truth that men had a existence/ union in Adam before they had a actual being, then why not receive the Truth that men had a Union /Existence in Christ before they had a actual being ? For to accept the one without accepting the other is inconsistent !

oatmeal
January 18th, 2013, 11:45 AM
Beloved,

Grace and peace,

As steko and patricius pointed out:

All the sins in the world have been paid for (with the exception of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which is unforgivable) however.

But we must distinguish between those who choose to believe and those who do not.

The sheep in the gospels are those who chose to believe.

Christians are never directly referred to as sheep. Although a pastor means shepherd.

oatmeal

beloved57
January 18th, 2013, 12:23 PM
oatmeal


All the sins in the world have been paid for

No they have not, or Jesus would be lying when He said this Jn 8:24

24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

How can that be if their sins have been paid for ?

godrulz
January 18th, 2013, 12:28 PM
oatmeal



No they have not, or Jesus would be lying when He said this Jn 8:24

24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

How can that be if their sins have been paid for ?

Payment is a metaphor, not a literalism. If the atonement was a literal payment/commercial transaction, universalism would be true.

Limited atonement is not the way to go to avoid universalism.

The issue is resolved by distinguishing grounds and conditions of salvation. Your denial of genuine free will and a wrong view of sovereignty is the problem. There is a Godward and manward element in reconciliation (objective provision of grace must be subjectively appropriated...receive vs reject free gift).

beloved57
January 18th, 2013, 12:30 PM
gr


The issue is resolved by distinguishing grounds and conditions of salvation

Thats easy, That is the Death of Christ. He saves all for whom He died !

godrulz
January 18th, 2013, 12:32 PM
gr



Thats easy, That is the Death of Christ. He saves all for whom He died !

The grounds of salvation (reason for/by which saved) are grace and the person and work of Christ (we agree).

The conditions of salvation (not without which) are repentant faith/continuance in the faith.

Your view limits the love of God and makes Him arbitrary, saving some, but damning others that He could save if He wanted to (cf. Satan who wants all damned vs some damned).

beloved57
January 18th, 2013, 12:33 PM
gr


The grounds of salvation

Thats easy, That is the Death of Christ. He saves all for whom He died !

beloved57
January 18th, 2013, 12:36 PM
gr


There is a Godward and manward element in reconciliation (objective provision of grace must be subjectively appropriated...receive vs reject free gift).

I discuss both objective and subjective reconciliation here:

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86278

beloved57
February 2nd, 2013, 05:26 AM
That Christ came into the world to die a Covenental Death for a specific people due to a Eternal Covenant established before the World began,this is seen in that He came to take on not all humanity without exception, but particularly the Seed of Abraham,an Elect People Heb 2:16

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. See Gal 3:29 !

He came to identify with their human nature, and not with that of all mankind without exception. Also this is not to be construed with Abraham's physical seed of the flesh for Two reasons #1. They were not the Elect of God or Chosen of God, which is seen here Rom 11:7

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

The rest of Israel National whom were not of the Election, were not Elect, simple enough !

Also seen here with Jesus statement Matt 22:14

14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Many were Abraham's Physical Seed called into National assembly, but few of them were God's Chosen !

#2 That Abraham's seed according to the flesh , that Israel, they were not the Children of God Rom 9:8

8 That is, They[Abraham's Seed] which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

But yet the Children of Abraham that Christ Identified with in Heb 2:16 were the Children of God Heb 2:13-14 and the Children of Promise Rom 9:8b; Gal 3:29 !

So Christ in His Covenental Death, come to Identify with, not all humanity without exception, but with the Children of God [Seed of Abraham] scattered throughout all humanity Jn 11:52

51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

Simply put, He came to die for the Children of God ! And by doing so, He makes them manifested, as to who they are 1 Jn 3:8-10

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

beloved57
February 5th, 2013, 11:29 AM
wrong thread

beloved57
February 20th, 2013, 04:23 PM
We know that Christ did not die for every man in the world without exception here in Heb 2:9

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste[experience] death for every man.

simply because, by Him tasting Death or those He tasted it for, that Death also being His Offering by the Will of God Heb 10:9-10

9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

This Offering of the Body of Christ is synonymous with the Tasting of Death in Heb 2:9 which resulted in them having been once and for all sanctified or set apart unto Eternal Glory [Heb 2:10] and in addition o that, by that same Tasting of Death or Offering of His Body, He has Perfected them forever Heb 10:14

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Which are those in Vs 10 that have been sanctified by His Death and by the Father Jude 1:1 !

So if Heb 2:9 were to mean that Jesus Christ tasted Death for [in behalf of] all men without exception as false teachers lie to us about, then all men without exception have been permanently set apart unto the Glory and Perfected before the Law and Justice forever, which would lead us to the heresy of Universalism, or Heb 10:10-14 are all lies !

Ps82
February 20th, 2013, 08:36 PM
Hi beloved57

You wrote:

We know that Christ did not die for every man in the world without exception here in Heb 2:9

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste[experience] death for every man.

I agree in part. Saying that he died for all men sometimes make people think that all men are saved. Not so. The work of Christ was to "provide the WAY" for all men who will to follow him into the kingdom. Mankind still has a freewill to reject "The WAY."

You wrote:

..., by Him tasting Death or those He tasted it for, that Death also being His Offering by the Will of God Heb 10:9-10

9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Experiencing death was part of the process that Christ had to experience in order to provide "The WAY" for mankind to follow him.
So to speak: He was the anti-venom that mankind needed in order to cure our snake bitten mortal-body condition. With his resurrection and appearing in a human body that was finally super-natural as well, we see the evidence that he conquered physical death for mankind.

You wrote:

This Offering of the Body of Christ is synonymous with the Tasting of Death in Heb 2:9 which resulted in them having been once and for all sanctified or set apart unto Eternal Glory [Heb 2:10] and in addition o that, by that same Tasting of Death or Offering of His Body, He has Perfected them forever Heb 10:14

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


So well said.

You wrote:

So if Heb 2:9 were to mean that Jesus Christ tasted Death for [in behalf of] all men without exception as false teachers lie to us about, then all men without exception have been permanently set apart unto the Glory and Perfected before the Law and Justice forever, which would lead us to the heresy of Universalism, or Heb 10:10-14 are all lies !

I also see things this way. Nice post.

Epoisses
February 21st, 2013, 12:53 AM
We know that Christ did not die for every man in the world without exception here in Heb 2:9

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste[experience] death for every man.

simply because, by Him tasting Death or those He tasted it for, that Death also being His Offering by the Will of God Heb 10:9-10

9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

This Offering of the Body of Christ is synonymous with the Tasting of Death in Heb 2:9 which resulted in them having been once and for all sanctified or set apart unto Eternal Glory [Heb 2:10] and in addition o that, by that same Tasting of Death or Offering of His Body, He has Perfected them forever Heb 10:14

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Which are those in Vs 10 that have been sanctified by His Death and by the Father Jude 1:1 !

So if Heb 2:9 were to mean that Jesus Christ tasted Death for [in behalf of] all men without exception as false teachers lie to us about, then all men without exception have been permanently set apart unto the Glory and Perfected before the Law and Justice forever, which would lead us to the heresy of Universalism, or Heb 10:10-14 are all lies !

Yes Heb. 2:9 along with John 3:17, Rom. 5:18 and 1John 2:2 all speak to Christ's work on the cross as being universal in nature. This is not the same as universalism. Universalism teaches that all were saved at the cross and all will be in heaven.

The bible teaches that all were saved 'in Christ' at the cross. Then this finished salvation is offered to every person via the Holy Spirit as a free gift which can be accepted or refused. The belief that Jesus only dies for and saves certain people is the real myth.

Epoisses
February 21st, 2013, 12:57 AM
I agree in part. Saying that he died for all men sometimes make people think that all men are saved. Not so. The work of Christ was to "provide the WAY" for all men who will to follow him into the kingdom. Mankind still has a freewill to reject "The WAY."

The belief that Jesus merely provides a provision or way of salvation for all men is Arminianism and also a perversion of the gospel. Sinners cannot save themselves so if we are to be saved at all it is 100% the work of Christ on behalf of fallen man. This belief leads to legalism where God does some of the saving and man does the rest. We contribute nothing towards our salvation, even faith is just a realization that we contribute nothing.

godrulz
February 21st, 2013, 01:03 AM
If u r not Calvinist nor Arminian, what r u?

beloved57
February 21st, 2013, 02:47 AM
epo


Yes Heb. 2:9 along with John 3:17, Rom. 5:18 and 1John 2:2 all speak to Christ's work on the cross as being universal in nature.

Yes for His Sheep ! If He died for all without exception, then would they all without exception be perfected forever as I have demonstrated, and we come into the other heresy of Universalism !

beloved57
February 21st, 2013, 02:53 AM
ps 82


Saying that he died for all men sometimes make people think that all men are saved.

Which would be the case since His Death saves all for whom He died ! As I showed from scripture, His Death both sancifies and perfects forever those He died for ! Are yiu an Universalist ?

Epoisses
February 21st, 2013, 09:56 AM
If u r not Calvinist nor Arminian, what r u?

Pauline.

Epoisses
February 21st, 2013, 10:03 AM
epo



Yes for His Sheep ! If He died for all without exception, then would they all without exception be perfected forever as I have demonstrated, and we come into the other heresy of Universalism !

Then you reject Heb. 2:9, John 3:17, Rom. 5:18 and 1John 2:2 which emphatically say that all were saved at the cross. They do not say that all will be in heaven as universalism teaches.

Ps82
February 21st, 2013, 12:39 PM
ps 82



Which would be the case since His Death saves all for whom He died ! As I showed from scripture, His Death both sancifies and perfects forever those He died for ! Are yiu an Universalist ?

A good deal of scripture is dedicated to the men who die, face judgement, and experience the second death described in Revelation along with Satan ... etc.

To say that "all men are saved" is a denial of revelation.

I conclude that not ALL men are saved ... I conclude that there are those whom are called by the Father, who have a choice to accept the "gift" that God has provided to make the way for their salvation or reject it.

I do not consider this freewill choice a "work" that man does to save himself. Man can not perform any works that could save himself. I believe that only God can save anyone. However, I do see it as a person's choice to reject the work of Christ and to also deny Christ the glory that would come from their salvation.

Without looking up quotes at the time scripture does tell us something like this: If you reject the Son then you have rejected the Father... and if you reject the Son then you will be rejected by the Father.

This is our choice.
Adam and Woman rejected the Father when they listened to Satan and chose his WAY to make themselves wise and as glorious as the angels... since that time, we have had the promise of ONE who would be able to undo what Adam had done. Now each of us do not have to die for the sin of the "one man Adam," because we have the "one man Christ" to fix things for those who chose him instead.

The way to undo our "fallen" situation is to accept Christ's way to reverse the consequences of Adam's having previously accepted "that ole Serpent's way." We owe all the glory and honor to him for what he has done for us.

godrulz
February 21st, 2013, 03:25 PM
Pauline.

Calvinists and Arminians would both claim to be Pauline. The question is whether Pauline theology is more CalvinistIC/deterministic or Arminian/free will theism. Molinism and Open Theism are also options with a model of providence.

We all claim to be biblical, Pauline, but this does not mean theological systems are not biblical or unbiblical.

You would generally fit under an umbrella of some sort (a spectrum and nuanced beliefs within major systems).

godrulz
February 21st, 2013, 03:26 PM
Then you reject Heb. 2:9, John 3:17, Rom. 5:18 and 1John 2:2 which emphatically say that all were saved at the cross. They do not say that all will be in heaven as universalism teaches.

These verses do not say that all were saved (past tense) at the cross. The objective provision of the finished work of the cross is intended for and sufficient for all, but it is only efficacious, appropriated subjectively by some.

Your wording is universalistic, so you need to qualify/clarify.

Beloved's TULIP/limited atonement is wrong, to be sure.

Epoisses
February 22nd, 2013, 12:18 AM
Calvinists and Arminians would both claim to be Pauline. The question is whether Pauline theology is more CalvinistIC/deterministic or Arminian/free will theism. Molinism and Open Theism are also options with a model of providence.

We all claim to be biblical, Pauline, but this does not mean theological systems are not biblical or unbiblical.

You would generally fit under an umbrella of some sort (a spectrum and nuanced beliefs within major systems).

I share beliefs from both camps. I agree with the calvinistic understanding that eveything was completed at the cross and what we receive from Christ is a finished work, where I disagree of course is that they see this as only applying to the elect or believers.

I agree with the arminian understanding that Christ's sacrifice extended to the whole world not just the elect but disagree that they only see it as a provision which is not complete until we believe.

Epoisses
February 22nd, 2013, 12:24 AM
These verses do not say that all were saved (past tense) at the cross. The objective provision of the finished work of the cross is intended for and sufficient for all, but it is only efficacious, appropriated subjectively by some.

Your wording is universalistic, so you need to qualify/clarify.

Beloved's TULIP/limited atonement is wrong, to be sure.

These verses do say that especially Romans 5.

I do agree with your understanding of an objective aspect which happened at the cross and extended to all men and the subjective aspect which is what happens in the life of each believer.

I see the objective gospel as universal and the subjective gospel as only applying to believers or the elect. The lost will be damned because they refused their free gift of salvation. Like Esau they despise their birthright and throw it away.

beloved57
February 22nd, 2013, 03:59 AM
Then you reject Heb. 2:9, John 3:17, Rom. 5:18 and 1John 2:2 which emphatically say that all were saved at the cross. They do not say that all will be in heaven as universalism teaches.


All those verses apply only to God's Elect !

beloved57
February 22nd, 2013, 04:36 AM
All throughout scripture, its plainly indicated that Salvation from the Lord is designed for only one Specific People, and that is God's Elect from every nation ! God has only Promised Salvation to Israel Isa 45:17

17 But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.


God never promised Israel National, Abraham's Physical seed that He would save them all, to them only a Remnant was promised to be saved Rom 9:27

27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

So Israel here is not ethnic jews, but the seed of Abraham that belongs to Christ His Church Gal 3:29

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Heirs according to what Promise ? The One in Isa 45:17, that Israel shall be saved with an Everlasting Salvation in the Lord [ Jesus Christ] for Everlasting Salvation is no other Acts 4:12

12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Paul preached to both jew and gentile that God hath according to Promise raised up a Saviour to Israel [His Elect] Acts 13:23

23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

Now if He raised up Jesus as a Saviour to Israel, then He died for Israel according to Promise !

The Mystery has always been that Israel, which was Promised to be saved Isa 45:17 was comprised of people of all nations, and not just ethnic jews ! Therefore the emphasis with words like world, whole world, all and etc .

Other scriptures that limit Salvation to only a certain people Ps 130:7

7 Let Israel hope in the Lord: for with the Lord there is mercy, and with him is plenteous redemption.

Ps 131:3

3 Let Israel hope in the Lord from henceforth and for ever.


So because God only promised a remnant would be saved out of Abraham's physical seed Israel Rom 9:27, then the rest of Israel that was promised to be saved were gentiles, and so thats why Paul concludes in Rom 11:26 that in that manner, all Israel shall be saved ! Rom 11:25-26

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

When the fulness of the gentiles be come in Under the New Covenant, then all the Israel of God shall be saved.

So Salvation has never been promised to any but Israel !

Ps82
February 22nd, 2013, 12:42 PM
Beloved57,
I think I get your over-all point. The true meaning of "Israel" includes more than the Jews. It includes all the Gentiles that have "come in" through Christ. Correct?

You made some good points.

beloved57
February 22nd, 2013, 10:37 PM
ps82


The true meaning of "Israel" includes more than the Jews. It includes all the Gentiles that have "come in" through Christ. Correct?

Yes !

beloved57
March 1st, 2013, 08:25 AM
Rev 14:1-5

And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

This passage shows in allegorical fashion just who the Lord Jesus Christ redeems by His Blood. These we will now compare with 1 Pet 1:18-20

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

First of all its the same Lamb in both passages, that is the Lamb of Rev 14:1 is the Lamb in 1 Pet 1:19

The same redemption in Rev 14:3-4

And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Is the same Redemption here 1 Pet 1:18

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

Both are God's Ransomed Elect from the Earth, ransomed by the Blood of Christ, the Lamb !

They are also the same redeemed ones here Titus 2:14

14 Who gave himself for us, that he[The Lamb] might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

All these Pertain to God's Elect and Redemption. The ones in Rev 14 are God's Elect, the ones in 1 Peter are God's Elect 1 Pet 1:2

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ [The Lamb slain]: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Titus 2:14 is unto the Elect Per Titus 1:1

Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

The 144000 is another way of saying God's elect, the completed number of them from the Earth, redeemed from the Earth.

They are the ones without blame before God Rev 14:5

5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

The very same one here Jude 1:24

24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy

godrulz
March 1st, 2013, 02:07 PM
All those verses apply only to God's Elect !

God's election is CORPORATE, not individual (initially), in Christ (not apart from Him), conditional (upon repentant faith for the individual), not unconditional.

TULIP is not the gospel, but a paradigm called Calvinism that is unbiblical. You read it into the texts (eisegesis) as proof texts vs exegesis.

beloved57
March 1st, 2013, 10:34 PM
gr


God's election is CORPORATE, not individual (initially),

Show us the scripture that says:

God's election is CORPORATE, not individual (initially),


TULIP is not the gospel,

Yes it is !

beloved57
March 19th, 2013, 07:58 AM
That Salvation Blessings Christ would wrought by His Blood was limited to a Specific People [The House of David] and not the entire world and everyone without exception, is seen here in Zech 13:1

In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.

Thats why the Book of Romans opens up with Rom 1:3

3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

2 Tim 2:8

8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

Salvation Mercies are the Sure Mercies of David ! Isa 55:3; Acts 13:34

This is because the Salvation Gospel Preached to both Jews and Gentiles belonged to the House of David Zech 13:1, but not Davids physical house, but a spiritual house ordered by the Everlasting Covenant 2 Sam 23:5.

Gentile Salvation was a by product of Salvation for the House of David Rom 15:8-13

8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.

10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.

11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.

12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse [House of David], and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust [Salvation Eph 1:13].

13 Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

beloved57
April 1st, 2013, 07:28 AM
That Christ's Salvation work is limited to a particular people, and not intended for all mankind without exception, we see that from yet another passage Lk 1:68-70,73

68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;

70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

Yes its promised to the Family of Abraham ! His People, The House of David.

And this has been the focus since the World began Lk 1:70

69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;

70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

When God spake to the Serpent, Adam and Eve here Gen 3:15, that one who was to bruise the head of the serpent, by so doing, would be the Salvation of the Hose of David or Abraham, an Elect People, The Israel of God !

Look again at Vs 69, Who is it specifically declared to be for ? A Horn of Salvation to whose House ? Now is the House of David the Whole World without exception ? It could also be understood as unto the descendants of David, or the descendants of Abraham Heb 2:16

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Lk 1:72-73

72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

Yes, Christ is a Promised Mercy to those who have Abraham as their Father !

blackbirdking
April 1st, 2013, 10:50 AM
There was a point in time when Rahab was not a part of Abraham's seed; that changed.

Joshua 2 :9 And she said unto the men, I know that the LORD hath given you the land, and that your terror is fallen upon us, and that all the inhabitants of the land faint because of you. 10For we have heard how the LORD dried up the water of the Red sea for you, when ye came out of Egypt; and what ye did unto the two kings of the Amorites, that were on the other side Jordan, Sihon and Og, whom ye utterly destroyed.

Joshua 6:25

Following the allegory of Abraham shows that Abraham must have been sneaking around with Rahab's mama.

blackbirdking
April 1st, 2013, 11:11 AM
1 John 2:1-2My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world

"Our" meaning the elect....me, us, the chosen few.

"the whole world" meaning....... hmmmm; well it doesn't fit my idea and I'm right, the writer couldn't have been meaning anybody else so............hmmmmmmmmmm, well, by cracky, it must mean the elect too!!!

I'm really elect!

beloved57
April 23rd, 2013, 05:12 PM
1 Jn 4:9

9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

A Purpose of God for which Christ came into the World, His Incarnation, was not to save all humanity, but was a manifestation of God's Love, the Eternal Love He had for His Elect World [ Israel] and through His Death, they might Live through Him. Now take notice of whom the sacred writer refers to here, him using the pronoun us & we, which makes this Purpose restricted to the Saints of God.

The Saints of God are all those God chose in Christ for this Purpose Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

These are the ones by His sacrifice He sanctified or set apart permanently Heb 10:10

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

God's will and Purpose gave a sanctification of His People [made them Holy] Permanently by the once and for all Offering of Christ !

beloved57
May 5th, 2013, 03:42 AM
Isa 53:12

Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Despite clear scripture Testimony of the exclusiveness of those Christ died for, the many as opposed to all humanity without exception, men will wrest this truth to their own destruction.

In addition to our opening text as to whom Christ bare the sin of, the many, lets look at Heb 9:28

28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Now does that say " offered to bear the sins of all men without exception ?" No it does not, and its dishonesty and the handling the word deceitfully to claim that it does mean that.

Yes, there is a sense in which He bare the sins of all, as in all of the many. That word many is the greek word polys:

many, much, large

And what that denotes is that He bare the sin of a large number of individuals. That very large # is shown forth here Rev 7:9

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

But this Great Multitude was exclusive and out of the whole, out of all nations. The word of as in out of is the greek prep ek which means:

out of, from, by, away from

Thats all of the many, a great multitude, which no man can number, but God can number them as sure as He can number the very hairs of their head Matt 10:30

But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.

And that word numbered, the greek word arithmeō derived from
arithmos which means:

a fixed and definite number [with God]

And this fixed and definite # makes up an multitude that no man can number, and it is appropriate at times to refer to them as all ! Not all without exception, but all as to denote their large number, all the large multitude !

2 Sam 6:19

And he dealt among all the people, even among the whole multitude of Israel, as well to the women as men, to every one a cake of bread, and a good piece of flesh, and a flagon of wine. So all the people departed every one to his house.

1 Kings 20:13

And, behold, there came a prophet unto Ahab king of Israel, saying, Thus saith the Lord, Hast thou seen all this great multitude? behold, I will deliver it into thine hand this day; and thou shalt know that I am the Lord.

Acts 15:12

Then all[pas] the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.

So when in the context of saying who Christ gave Himself a ransom for or in behalf of, it can be said for all as here 1 Tim 2:6

Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Or for the many Matt 20:28

Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Many denotes the exclusiveness of those He gave His Life a Ransom in behalf of, and all embraces the large number of the exclusiveness of the many, all the many, even multitudinous.

Matt 26:28

For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Again, the many, denoting exclusiveness of those His Blood was shed for !




Jn 17:2

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Here is where my point is Illustrated. The first all, does mean all without exception and pas is used to define them, but the "as many as" which separates them from the all in general as in all flesh, the as many as is also defined by the word pas, as it defines only all that had been given to Christ !

In other words its of all which thou has given Him !

But its quite evident that pas cannot mean the same in both places . So to say all always means all without exception, is handling the word of God deceitfully, especially in light of the fact that other scripture can give more clarification of the subject matter in order to understand the subject in agreement with the subject throughout scripture.

Christ's death, whose sins He died for is clearly define as the many, as exclusive from all in general ! To deny this is wresting scripture and handling it deceitfully !

godrulz
May 5th, 2013, 03:44 PM
All those verses apply only to God's Elect !

No, world refers to the unregenerate, for e.g. You and Calvin wrongly interpolate elect to retain a wrong view.

God's grace and love is intended for and sufficient for all, but only efficacious for those who cease to resist His love and grace.

A denial of free will and a wrong view of sovereignty are two negative issues you need to fix.

beloved57
May 6th, 2013, 07:52 AM
gr


No, world refers to the unregenerate

Not all the time. But even the Elect world, its members are at one time unregenerate, but they all will be saved out of that condition by Christ.

Then there is the unregenerate world that will remain so. The One Jesus did not pray for Jn 17:9

But as far as the ones I quoted in post 451, they all apply to the Elect !

beloved57
May 18th, 2013, 03:15 PM
Lk 19:9-10

9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.

10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

Christ came to seek and to save not all without exception, but all who are of the Chosen Seed of Abraham ! Ps 105:6

O ye seed of Abraham his servant, ye children of Jacob his chosen.

This passage in Lk 19 surely indicates this. The man Zacchaeus, because he was blessed to be of that Chosen Seed, Salvation came to his house, as a result of the Seeking Son of man, Note: Those Christ came to save, He seeks them until He finds them, and confers His Salvation Upon them !

That Christ came to seek and to save only a Chosen People called Israel, He clearly states that here Matt 15:24

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

What can be more plainer stated, that He was sent ONLY to the Lost Sheep of Israel !

24 Jesus replied, “I’ve been sent only to the lost sheep, the people of Israel.”[CEB]


24 He said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Isra’el.”[CJB]


24 Jesus answered, “God sent me only to the lost people of Israel.”[ERV]

24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”[ESV]

Now what does the word only mean ?

He was sent only once by the Father into the World, so He must be Talking about that sending here 1 Jn 4:9

In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we [ The Lost Sheep of Israel] might live through him.

With that in Mind, all other portions stating about Christ being sent for Saving Purposes Jn 3:17

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

The World here must be the World of the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel, or we have a contradiction with Matt 15:24 ! You see, we must understand the more specific over the general. Yes Jn 3:17 speaks of a World to Save which does not preclude that World being the House of Israel !

Bright Raven
May 18th, 2013, 03:30 PM
So you say that only Jews can be saved through Christ? Wrong! How were you saved? Jesus died for all but not all accept his redemptive act.

It's pretty simple.

John 3:16

King James Version (KJV)

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

beloved57
May 18th, 2013, 05:54 PM
bright


So you say that only Jews can be saved through Christ?

Where did I say that ? Show us the quote or admit you just lied and misrepresented what I posted !

Bright Raven
May 18th, 2013, 05:59 PM
That Christ came to seek and to save only a Chosen People called Israel, He clearly states that here Matt 15:24

Clarify your post.

Epoisses
May 18th, 2013, 06:03 PM
Where did I say that ? Show us the quote or admit you just lied and misrepresented what I posted !

Who's this us you keep talking about?

You sound like Gollum from the Lord of the Rings.

beloved57
May 18th, 2013, 06:31 PM
Clarify your post.

Where did I say that ?
So you say that only Jews can be saved through Christ? Show us the quote or admit you just lied and misrepresented what I posted !

Bright Raven
May 18th, 2013, 06:36 PM
Where did I say that ? Show us the quote or admit you just lied and misrepresented what I posted !

:duh: Read post 469!!!

beloved57
May 18th, 2013, 07:48 PM
:duh: Read post 469!!!

Where did I say this?


So you say that only Jews can be saved through Christ?

Show us the quote or admit you just lied and misrepresented what I posted !

Bright Raven
May 18th, 2013, 07:54 PM
Lk 19:9-10

9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.

10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

Christ came to seek and to save not all without exception, but all who are of the Chosen Seed of Abraham ! Ps 105:6

O ye seed of Abraham his servant, ye children of Jacob his chosen.

This passage in Lk 19 surely indicates this. The man Zacchaeus, because he was blessed to be of that Chosen Seed, Salvation came to his house, as a result of the Seeking Son of man, Note: Those Christ came to save, He seeks them until He finds them, and confers His Salvation Upon them !

That Christ came to seek and to save only a Chosen People called Israel, He clearly states that here Matt 15:24

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

What can be more plainer stated, that He was sent ONLY to the Lost Sheep of Israel !

24 Jesus replied, “I’ve been sent only to the lost sheep, the people of Israel.”[CEB]


24 He said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Isra’el.”[CJB]


24 Jesus answered, “God sent me only to the lost people of Israel.”[ERV]

24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”[ESV]

Now what does the word only mean ?

He was sent only once by the Father into the World, so He must be Talking about that sending here 1 Jn 4:9

In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we [ The Lost Sheep of Israel] might live through him.

With that in Mind, all other portions stating about Christ being sent for Saving Purposes Jn 3:17

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

The World here must be the World of the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel, or we have a contradiction with Matt 15:24 ! You see, we must understand the more specific over the general. Yes Jn 3:17 speaks of a World to Save which does not preclude that World being the House of Israel !

Your post BL 57. The Jews are the lost sheep of Israel and He came to preach to them. And only means only. Now clarify your post and stop dodging the question.

beloved57
May 18th, 2013, 08:05 PM
Your post BL 57. The Jews are the lost sheep of Israel and He came to preach to them. And only means only. Now clarify your post and stop dodging the question.

Where did I say this?


So you say that only Jews can be saved through Christ?

Show the quote or admit that you intentionally lied and misrepresented what I posted !

Bright Raven
May 18th, 2013, 09:03 PM
Where did I say this?



Show the quote or admit that you intentionally lied and misrepresented what I posted !

I've come to the conclusion that you can't comprehend what you read let alone having the ability to read. Wake up and smell the coffee. You said what you said, admit it and be done with it.

beloved57
May 19th, 2013, 04:01 AM
I've come to the conclusion that you can't comprehend what you read let alone having the ability to read. Wake up and smell the coffee. You said what you said, admit it and be done with it.

I have come to the conclusion that you are a liar, until you show me where I said what you stated I said:

Where did I say this?


So you say that only Jews can be saved through Christ?

As far as what I believe about salvation, its testified to and clarified in my many threads !

beloved57
June 1st, 2013, 08:34 PM
The Lord Jesus Christ did not die for all mankind without exception, for that is one of the biggest lies ever told. The scripture is very clear as to whom it is that He Loved and died for, for He Loved and died for His Church Eph 5:25

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

Paul here states exactly who Christ died for by inspiration. Its the World of His Church, or His Body which He is the Head of. He died for His Kingdom, for He is a King of which He must have a Kingdom; He died for the World consisting of His Bride, since He is the Bridegroom. Scripture teaches that God the Father picked the bride for the Bridegroom, Remember Issac and Rebekkah ?

beloved57
June 14th, 2013, 07:16 AM
Jn 11:50-52

50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

One of the biggest lies ever told and believed in false religion is that Christ died for all mankind without exception.

But scripture testimony is clear that He died only for some of mankind, this time in this passage its pointed out to be the Children of God, both those found in the nation of Israel and those scattered abroad, meaning in the gentile nations.

It is the Children of God as a result of Christ's death, that will be gathered to Christ, meaning they will come to Him in Faith, which makes manifest they were the Children of God. In Salvation and conversion believers make manifest who the Children of God are 1 Jn 3:10

In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

That word manifest means phaneros:

apparent, manifest, evident, known

2) manifest i.e to be plainly recognised or known

They become apparent, or recognized, evident or known, whereas before conversion [faith and or repentance] they are not known to be the Children of God, not that they were not, they were but it was not evident as such.

But Faith in Christ makes it evident Gal 3:26

For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Jesus said, all that the Father giveth me shall come to me Jn 6:37, well Jesus is referring to the Children of God God gave Him to die for. Heb 2:13

And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

The Children of Jn 11:51-52.

Its God's Children who shall be taught of God and so they come to Him Jn 6:44-45

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Now lets go to where this is written in the prophets to Identify whom Christ is stating shall be taught of God Isa 54:13

13 And all thy children shall be taught of the Lord; and great shall be the peace of thy children.

It is God's Children that shall be Taught of Him resulting in their coming to Christ. Its the same Truth taught in Heb 12:6

6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

Involved in this chastening is the teaching and learning from God. The word chasteneth here means to:

to train children

a) to be instructed or taught or learn

b) to cause one to learn

That's why the children come to Christ in Faith Jn 6:44-45. Again they are the ones the Father gave to the Son Heb 2:13 and it was for them He suffered and died Heb 2:9-10. Every son that He tasted death for Heb 2:9, shall be taught of God, and they shall come to Christ, believing on Him for Salvation, the Captain of their Salvation Heb 2:10 !

No, Christ did not die for the children of the devil which are also manifested 1 Jn 3:10

10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

beloved57
June 21st, 2013, 12:24 PM
Who are Christ's People He died for in order to save them from their sins ? Matt 1:21

21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.


They are the foreknown of God as Per Rom 11:2

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

They are the same as here also Rom 8:29

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Which are those He Predestinated, So His People whom He came to die for and save were His Predestinated ones, those whom He did foreknow. He did not come to save all mankind without exception. He never came to die for and save those He shall say this to Matt 7:23

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

That's certainly not any of Matt 1:21, whether jew or gentile.

godrulz
June 21st, 2013, 01:29 PM
So you say that only Jews can be saved through Christ? Wrong! How were you saved? Jesus died for all but not all accept his redemptive act.

It's pretty simple.

John 3:16

King James Version (KJV)

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Why does MAD deny this basic verse for the Church Age?!

beloved57
July 22nd, 2013, 04:31 PM
Ex 34:5-7

5 And the Lord descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the Lord.

6 And the Lord passed by before him, and proclaimed, The Lord, The Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,

7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.


This verse here Vs 7 shows hat the LORD did not have mercy to Save all mankind, but only some.

Now God's Mercy in forgiving Iniquity, and Transgression and Sin was provided for in Christ before the World began 1 Pet 1:20

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

He was the Surety set up for the Everlasting Covenant Ps 103:10-17

10 He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities.

11 For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him.

12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

13 Like as a father pitieth his children, so the Lord pitieth them that fear him.

14 For he knoweth our frame; he remembereth that we are dust.

15 As for man, his days are as grass: as a flower of the field, so he flourisheth.

16 For the wind passeth over it, and it is gone; and the place thereof shall know it no more.

17 But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;

These would also be describing the Vessels of Mercy Rom 9:23

And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,


God's Mercy is exercised towards them Christ died for, because Christ bare their Punishment for their sin and in doing so He purged them of their sins Heb 1:3

Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

Now this word purged[katharismos] means, :

a cleansing, purification, a ritual purgation or washing

a) of the washing of the Jews before and after their meals

b) of levitical purification of women after childbirth

c) a cleansing from the guilt of sins wrought by the expiatory sacrifice of Christ

So this corresponds to those God shews Mercy to forgiving sin, transgression and iniquity.

But on the other hand, God does not clear the guilty ! The Guilty are those Christ did not die for. The word clear in Ex 34:7

7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

That word is the Hebrew naqah and means:

to be empty, be clear, be pure, be free, be innocent, be desolate, be cut off

a) (Qal) to be empty, be clean, be pure

b) (Niphal)

1) to be cleaned out, be purged out

2) to be clean, be free from guilt, be innocent

3) to be free, be exempt from punishment

4) to be free, be exempt from obligation

c) (Piel)

1) to hold innocent, acquit

2) to leave unpunished


And yet that is the very thing Christ's Death alone, of Himself did for those He died for. They are free from guilt and punishment of their sins because of the sacrifice of Christ Per Heb 1:3

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

Again purged our sins meaning :

a cleansing from the guilt of sins wrought by the expiatory sacrifice of Christ

Now all this was in line with what God said to Moses in Ex 33:19

after Moses asked the LORD to shew him His Glory Ex 33:18-19

18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.

19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

That Mercy is restricted to those He keeps it for Ex 34:7

7 Keeping [ Guard with fidelity]mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

God that Mercy Keeps out of Covenant Faithfulness to them for Christ's Sake !

Ps 89:1,24,33

I will sing of the mercies of the Lord for ever: with my mouth will I make known thy faithfulness to all generations.

But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted.

Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.

Christian Liberty
July 22nd, 2013, 05:41 PM
Another popular Myth in the religious world today, is the Jesus Christ died or gave His Life for everyone in the world without exception, but the problem with that, is there is not one shred of scripture evidence that states that.

The scripture however does say that He died for His Sheep or His Church as per Jn 10:

11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

eph 5:

25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

His People Isa 53:

8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. cp Matt 1:21

Now, are all without exception His Sheep ? No

Are all without exception His Church ? No

Are all without exception His People ? No

For surely the seed of the serpent Gen 3:15 cannot be of His Sheep, His Church, or His People.

So why does the religous world proclaim that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception, when they have no scripture proof ? Because it is a Myth.

I agree with the OP.

beloved57
July 22nd, 2013, 05:48 PM
I agree with the OP.

That's good !

beloved57
August 6th, 2013, 01:05 PM
1 Thess 5:9-10

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

The Lord Jesus Christ died for those whom God the Father did not appoint to wrath, but instead, that they [whom He died for] should obtain Salvation through Their Lord Jesus Christ.

Note, those whom should obtain Salvation instead of Wrath, are the ones Paul said He died for Vs 10.

They are also these of Rom 5:9

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood or death, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Of course thats the same wrath spoken of in 1 Thess 5:9 that they were not appointed to, and for whom Christ died in Vs 10.

They are also the ones referred to here Matt 1:21

21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

None whom Christ died for were appointed to wrath, and shall never be under His Wrath, not in this world, or the Next, Thanks to Jesus Christ who died for them !

False Prophet
August 6th, 2013, 01:14 PM
Whosoever shall believe shall receive.
whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. Jn 3:16

oatmeal
August 6th, 2013, 05:26 PM
Where does this say that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception ?

Read it

beloved57
August 6th, 2013, 06:58 PM
Whosoever shall believe shall receive.
whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. Jn 3:16

Ok, I have no quarrels with Jn 3:16 !