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Kevin
July 7th, 2002, 07:28 PM
Agape,


Are you going to answer my question? How can we confess Jesus with the mouth with faith "ALONE". Confessing with the mouth requires ACTION on our part... something we must DO. It is imposssible to DO an ACTION with faith "ALONE". Answer my question, if you can.
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LOL...flapping the lips doesn't save anyone.

Confessing Christ with the mouth does play a role in our salvation:

Romans 10:10
10) For man believes with his heart and so is justified, and he confesses with his lips and so is saved.


Matthew 15:8--"This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with [their] lips; but their heart is far from me."

Yeah, becase they don't do the commandments of men, not of God. This doens't have any bearing on confessing Christ with the mouth.

Also, those who confess Jesus before men, Jesus will confess before the Father. Those who deny Him won't be confessed before the Father (Matt. 10:30).


When we confess with/in "our" mouth...we are saying, agreeing and accepting within ourselves the Lord Jesus as our savior from sin.. We don't make ourselves "say" it...it's already there.

We are to confess Him with the mouth before man. You can't do that without actually doing just that.


God answered your question via His Word, but again it went over your head. Here we go again

Ephesians 2:8,9:
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Thought you made up your mind. If you are going to bring this up (again), answer my points.


Acts 16:30,31:
And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Yup. When somebody repents and is baptized because of their belief, their belief has put them in God's grace (just as in Acts 2:38). Simply believing and not acting upon that belief does no good. How can you "OBEY" the gospel without DOING something (will you ever answer this?)?


Getting saved is easy. It is a one-time occurrence and is permanent.

Wrong. It is only if we endure to the end, keeping our Lord's commandments, and being found worthy by Christ will we be saved.


When saved, a Christian never has to fear losing his everlasting life.

Wrong. Already been addressed in a previous post.

Kevin
July 7th, 2002, 08:50 PM
Jerry,


They had received the baptism of John,that is by water.But they had not been baptized with the Holy Spirit (see Acts1:5).So in order to have the Holy Spirit come upon them Paul laid his hands on them.

Spirit baptism doesn't save anybody, Jerry. It imparts miraculous gifts, which is the result of Paul's laying on of hands in Acts 19:6. When we are baptized into Christ, we are baptized into His death (which I'm sure you already knew). Water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus represents the death burial and resurrection of a believer.

In water baptism -

You go down into the water. This represents the death.
You completely immersed in water. This represents the burial.
You come out of the water. This represents the resurrection... we are born again.

Paul says in Romans 6 that we are baptized into His death, we put away our man of sin by burying him, and we share in the likeness of His resurrection. Only water baptism can represent these three things (See above). How does spirit baptism represent this?


They were not re-baptized with water.

Yes they were. They were baptized again after John's baptism in the name of the Lord, which also uses water (Acts 10:47-48).


And those who are baptized into Christ are baptized into His death.And it is by the Holy Spirit that one is baptized INTO CHRIST (1Cor.12:13,27).

This is not referring to the falling of the Holy Spirit as spoken of in Acts 2:4 or Acts 10:44. We are led by the Spirit into the baptism of the Lord for the remission of sins. How do I know it's baptism in the name of the Lord? Because that's what Paul practiced, and it is the only baptism that was commanded by Jesus for all nations. Paul would not preach one baptism, and practice another.

Holy Spirit baptism is recorded in Acts 2:3 as looking like tongues of fire that rested on the apostle's heads. So, when was the last time you saw this happen to a new convert?

Jerry Shugart
July 7th, 2002, 09:29 PM
Kevin,

At Acts 19 the question is not whether or not they had been baptized in the name of Jesus Christ or not,but instead the question is whether or not they had received the Holy Spirit.This is NOT about receiving a new "water baptism",but instead it is about receiving the Spirit.

And when they said that they had not received the Spirit,Paul then laid his hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit.

They had been baptized with water before the time that the Holy Spirit was given.So they did not need a new water baptism,but instead needed Paul to give them the Holy Spirit.

And if they were given a new baptism,as you maintain,and that baptism is supposed to result in them receiving "the gift of the Holy Spirit"(see Acts2:38),THEN why didn´t they receive the Holy Spirit?

Why was it still necessary for Paul to lay his hands on them before they ever received the Holy Spirit?

In His grace,--Jerry

Apollos
July 7th, 2002, 09:57 PM
agapee -

You are so busy laughing, you are missing the point (actually all of them - lol!! Reminds me of my daughter when she was 2 yo.)

Repentance and confession - AFTER - salvation?? Not only are you missing the conversation, you are reading some book other than the Bible - LOL!

Why not just answer my question forthrightly -
Does man, must man do ANYTHING to appropriate salvation from God?? (How much honesty you got agape??)

I guess I did not realize that you are a Calvinist. My apologies. You believe that the HS "zaps" the "pre-selected" ones, huh - lol!
If so, why are you wasting your time preaching? Let the HS "zap" the ones meant to be zapped and have another V-8 cocktail.

As for Romans 10:9 - it is only a part of the picture. Nothing about repentance in Romans 10:9 is there. (LOL!)

And I am sure that you "missed" by post on Ephesians 2:8 - that there ARE works to do, these just aren't works that allow one to boast. They are the works God afore prepared for su to do - see verse 10 (if your Bible goes that far - lol!)

Oh, but I see that it did. I guess you think that those "works" in verse 10 are somehow relegated to everything that happens AFTER salvation. Is the something in that verse that makes you think that "works" cannot start BEFORE salvation? To clarify, is there something there to make you think that there is nothing for man to do BEFORE he appropriates salvation from God?

Nope - not a "boaster" - just obedient. That means you must be a "flounder" - lol.

Eh - that enuf for you... enjoy your nap - LOL !

(Lol.)

Jerry Shugart
July 7th, 2002, 11:07 PM
Apollos,

You say that "works" are needed for salvation,but not "works" that one could boast about.

So you are saying that we must do some "works".

But what does Scripture say about those who do works:

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not recokened of grace but of debt.But to him that believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly,his faith is counted for righteousness"(Ro.4:4,5).

How can you do any "works" and not be counted as one "who worketh"?

Don´t you realize that we are "justified FREELY by His grace"?

If we have to do ANY "works" in order to obtain salvation,then it can no longer be considered a gift.

And that is why Paul says,"it is of faith,that it might be by grace"(Ro.4:15).

Any ground other than faith is inconsisent with grace.

But you,Apollos,are so intent on insisting that one cannot be saved apart from "works" that you overthrow your reason and can delude yourself into believing that a "gift" has to be worked for.

So tell us.Exactly which works are necessary in order for the sinner to obtain eternal life?Remember,these works are not the kind that one can boast about.

Please do not leave out any of the necessary "works".

In His grace,--Jerry

agape
July 8th, 2002, 01:51 AM
Kevin,
Confessing Christ with the mouth does play a role in our salvation: With the mouth does not mean saying it verbally or out loud. It means you are confessing this within yourself, you believe and agree that Jesus Christ is your lord and savior from sin and you believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead. This is what you are saying and confessing deep down inside of you. This is NOT WORKS. If you say it is, you are calling God a liar for He clearly states in Ephesians "NOT OF WORKS"...lest any man should boast. Again, God meant what He said and said what He meant, NOT OF WORKS. Again, stop putting works into where and when God DOES NOT. :)

Romans 10:10,11:
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

It's all a matter of believing on him and not as I stated "bumping the gums." All believing comes from the heart otherwise it is just mental assent.

quote:

Matthew 15:8--"This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with [their] lips; but their heart is far from me."

Yeah, becase they don't do the commandments of men, not of God. This doens't have any bearing on confessing Christ with the mouth. Hello? The point being made is that anyone can "say" with his mouth I believe or I confess and not mean any of it. They may say a lot of things, but their "hearts" were far from him. Confessing Jesus Christ as Lord has to come from the heart. It's not in saying it out loud that gets you save, it's confessing and believing it from the heart.

Also, those who confess Jesus before men, Jesus will confess before the Father. Those who deny Him won't be confessed before the Father (Matt. 10:30).This verse, within the context, is saying that if they confess Jesus "before men" he will confess them before God. Romans 10:9 does NOT SAY to confess with our mouth "before men." He is saying if you confess, you are saying and agreeing in yourself, not before men, that Jesus Christ is your savior from sin. It has to be believed.

quote:

When we confess with/in "our" mouth...we are saying, agreeing and accepting within ourselves the Lord Jesus as our savior from sin.. We don't make ourselves "say" it...it's already there.

We are to confess Him with the mouth before man. You can't do that without actually doing just that.Again, PI on your part. Where does it say to confess "before men"???

quote:

God answered your question via His Word, but again it went over your head. Here we go again

Ephesians 2:8,9:
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast.

Thought you made up your mind. If you are going to bring this up (again), answer my points. Having a problem with those verses cuz it makes it clear that it is NOT BY WORKS??

quote:

Acts 16:30,31:
And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Yup. When somebody repents and is baptized because of their belief, their belief has put them in God's grace (just as in Acts 2:38). Simply believing and not acting upon that belief does no good. How can you "OBEY" the gospel without DOING something (will you ever answer this?)?Believing in Christ as your savior from sin and believing that God raised him from the dead automatically gets one baptized in the holy spirit. No effort on my part. I believed that Jesus Christ died for my sins and that God raise him from the dead a long time ago. I was born again but didn't know it until I really started to study God's Word and manifested God's spirit in me, which speaking in tongues was one, that I knew for sure. Simply believing in Christ as your savior, the one who did all the work for you cuz you couldn't do it, takes no works at all. You don't work to believe that Christ died for your sins and redeemed you...you just do. :)

quote:

Getting saved is easy. It is a one-time occurrence and is permanent.

Wrong. It is only if we endure to the end, keeping our Lord's commandments, and being found worthy by Christ will we be saved.For by grace are ye saved, NOT OF WORKS...lest any man should boast. Are ye boasting here?? Sounds like it. Tsk Tsk.

quote:

When saved, a Christian never has to fear losing his everlasting life.


Wrong. You really need to stop telling God that He is wrong. After all, HE IS GOD, and what HE SAYS, GOES. :)

c.moore
July 8th, 2002, 02:44 AM
You ask Kevin
Perhaps it's time to ask a few questions. I'll present the "water baptism" side, and I invite a "Spirit baptism" person to fill in the blanks on his/her side:



Are there three stages to "Spirit baptism"? (There are with water baptism.)


Quote c.moore
Yes, there is three stages,but the stages are done in the real thing and in the kingdom of God .
The spiritual baptism is the real baptism which you don`t have to represent or give an example like water baptism because this is the baptism that count for God, and this spiritual baptism is in God kingdom because God is Spirit, and God knows that the spiritual thing last forever.
You can`t represent the spiritual in the spiritual, because you can`t see it, and to represent mean: (Webter dictionary) to present an image, to describe (as) being of a certain kind,to be a fair sample of,TO BE A SYMBOL FOR.

The water baptism is not the certain kind, it is a discription of the real thing, and water baptism is as the spiritual baptism, and water baptism is a sample of the spiritual baptism, and the water baptism is a symbol for the spiritual baptism.

If you use the word represent Kevin , then you know that the water baptism being represent can`t be the thing that baptize us for the kingdom of God, and for Our Spiritual God.

If I also represent the president in a certain land ,the president will have to be a president before I can represent him or her, so is the spiritual baptism.
The person spiritual baptized has to first baptized in the spirit before coming out of any water or going into the water to represent their baptism,not the way you interpretate it to be.

So the question you are asking using the word represent is out of context, and to all the question you ask has to be no, because I proved you can`t represent the real spritual baptism with the spiritual,because you can`t see the things being done in the natural as in the spiritual, that why we do the water baptism to show what really has happen before God for you, and the natural life can see this, like the Lord Supper is A good example.
I think the baptism for you is like the Lord supper understanding for the catholics.
They believe the Lord supper is the real thing, and you believe the water baptismo is the real thing, and tI think you know that the Lord supper is only A symbol, and you can explain this doctrine, so is for us with your water baptism doctrine we know it is not the whole truth, and there is a lack of knowledge.
I forgot to say also that no way is A president first must be represented, and after he is represented he is then A president like you believe or interpretate the bible.

Quote kevin
Is there a stage in which death is represented? (There is with water baptism.)

Quote c.moore
Death is not (represent) but death is DONE in the spirit baptism.
A. Spiritual Baptism Identifies us with Jesus (Rom.6:1-5).
1. In 5:20, Paul made a profound statement, "But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more." One of my professors said that is the key phrase of the whole Bible.
2. V. 1 asks a logical question, "Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?" If our sin showcases God’s grace, then shouldn’t we continue to sin? Paul says, "Certainly not." Just because cheating on your faithful spouse makes them seem even more faithful, this is no reason to commit adultery!
3. Note v. 3. "as many of us as were baptized into Christ
Jesus were baptized into His death." This is not water baptism or we must conclude that we need water baptism for salvation. We were immersed or "united together" (v. 5) in Christ’s death.
4. This is a very difficult passage. Basically it means that our salvation means that our old self, the old man, our sin nature died with Christ on the cross. We were "baptized" or "united together in the likeness of His death." When you were saved, your old self died with Jesus.


Quote Kevin
Is there a stage in which burial is represented? (There is with water baptism.)


Quote c.moore
There is no representation in the spiritual baptism , but the spiritual baptism does really take place in the spirit.
Rom 6:5. By virtue of spiritual baptism, we were "buried with Him through baptism into death" and "raised from the dead by the glory of the Father" just as Jesus was raised. Therefore we should "walk in newness of life."


Quote kevin
Is there a stage in which resurrection is represented? (There is with water baptism.)



Quote c.moore
6. Look closely at v. 5. We were "united together [immersed - baptized] in the likeness of His death" and therefore we were also baptized or immersed "in the likeness of His resurrection." We are completely identified with Jesus!

8. Spiritual baptism means that we vicariously (1)experienced the death, (2)burial and(3) resurrection of Christ.
We are so identified with Him that we no longer live, but He lives through us. Gal 2:20 says, "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me."
Spiritual Baptism identifies us with Jesus

I hope this answered your question Kevin.
I did the best I can to show you the truth , and if you can`t accept this the only God can convince you like God did to paul when he was killing the christian with all his heart for God he thought.

Let God bless you
peace:)

agape
July 8th, 2002, 08:09 AM
To All The Water Baptism Fellows:

Actually, there are more than 3 stages to being baptized in the holy spirit. When Christ ascended to His Father and sat down at His right hand, we sat down with him. We are already "spiritually" seated in heavenly places. I like to see water baptism do that one. We have already, "spiritually" passed from death unto eternal life and all hell can't stop us. I would also like to see water baptism accomplish that one too. Here are some of the spiritual blessings and benefits received via the holy spirit.

Water baptism does not accomplish an inward spiritual birth and all that spiritually comes with the new birth. Baptism in the "holy spirit" is the only way one can be born-again or born from above, receive holy-spirit life, which is incorruptible and eternal and enter into the kingdom of God.
Jesus Christ made it very clear that one MUST be born of the Spirit in order to enter into the Kingdom of God. However, through one's blindness, which Satan is good at doing, what Christ said does not matter. In spite of the bold truth in Jesus Christ giving precedence to spirit baptism there are still those who give precedence to water baptism, discarding the very words of Jesus Christ himself. Baffling to the mind...isn't it?

Water baptism is limited and insignificant and it cannot give anything spiritual to anyone. It will never give anyone what all of Ephesians declares we have in Christ Jesus, now and in the future. I can go on and on of course; however, God did give His Word for us to read, study and learn all that Christ accomplished for the born-again believer.

So why do Christians believe water baptism is necessary? I believe it's just plain ignorance and blindness due to what other religious people have taught them. They defend a gospel that does not exist and they lose out on the greatness of what God made available to the born-again Christian. Once again, Satan has blinded the minds of those who hold onto man-made doctrines of works for salvation, and which, btw, will NEVER WORK.

Evangelion
July 8th, 2002, 09:29 AM
Kevin - I asked you to ask Agape to pass the salt because I'm not talking to Agape anymore, and I don't think Agape's talking to me.

Oh, and please tell Agape that I'll pass the salt back when I've finished with it. ;)

JustAChristian
July 8th, 2002, 09:32 AM
Did everyone notice Agape's latest post. He had a lot to say with not a single proof text. Where does this leave him? Paul had something to say on that point.

1 Cor. 14:37-38

37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

JustAChristian

Evangelion
July 8th, 2002, 10:00 AM
Well said that man. :up:

agape
July 8th, 2002, 11:08 AM
Originally posted by JustAChristian
Did everyone notice Agape's latest post. He had a lot to say with not a single proof text. Where does this leave him? Paul had something to say on that point.Guess you could not prove me wrong...so you stoop to this kind of pathetic response. One should know the Word enough to not even need to be shown "proof text" because it's clearly written in God's Word. I and others have given ample proof text on the subject matter which goes way over your "religious" head.

1 Cor. 14:37-38

37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.You fit this description to an exactness. :p

BTW, I'm still waiting for any kind of proof text whatsoever from you? Waiting...waiting...and waiting....hope to get some or at least one before Christ returns! :D

agape
July 8th, 2002, 11:11 AM
Originally posted by Evangelion
Well said that man. :up: And may I say, Evangelion, you are just as pathetic as "that man." :p

Evangelion
July 8th, 2002, 11:41 AM
Ha! Agape spoke to me! :D

I guess we can see which of us has the greater self control... :p

JustAChristian
July 8th, 2002, 11:43 AM
Originally posted by agape
Guess you could not prove me wrong...so you stoop to this kind of pathetic response. One should know the Word enough to not even need to be shown "proof text" because it's clearly written in God's Word. I and others have given ample proof text on the subject matter which goes way over your "religious" head.
You fit this description to an exactness. :p

BTW, I'm still waiting for any kind of proof text whatsoever from you? Waiting...waiting...and waiting....hope to get some or at least one before Christ returns! :D


Did everyone notice the last post of Agape did not show a single proof text for his statements. More rhetoric. Can we be saved by rhetoric? When will Agape ever show that the Holy Spirit is the cleansing agent of God? He is so sure that he has been Holy Spirit baptized and cleansed of sins, but he does not show a proof text. More rhetoric.....

JustAChristian

Jerry Shugart
July 8th, 2002, 12:49 PM
JustAChristian,

Bu your own definition of "sanctification" we see that "to sanctify" means,among other things, "to make something into a state of proper functioning."

In order that a Christian can be acceptable to God and to function properly with the indwelt Holy Spirit,all his sins must be taken away or cleansed.

And we see in Scripture that it is the Holy Spirit that does in fact "sanctify" the Christian:

"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God,the Father,through sanctification of the Spirit"(1Pet.1:2).

"God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit"(2Thess.2:13).

Sanctification is spoken of as being by God the Father,by the Spirit,in Jesus Christ,and by blood.And Scripture does speak of being cleansed by the blood of Christ.

These are not separate means of being sanctified,but instead they all refer to the one and same "sanctification".

God the Father is the Author,the Spirit the Agent,and the blood the means of our sanctification,and it is in Christ that all this is possible.

Your idea that one is saved by submitting to the rite of water baptism goes beck to the pagan religions that believed that one´s soul can actually be washed by water.They believed that "sins" could actually attach themselves to the "souls" of men.Therefore,they believed that "water" could actually cleanse the sins from the soul.

In His grace,--Jerry

HopeofGlory
July 8th, 2002, 08:07 PM
Jerry,


But you,Apollos,are so intent on insisting that one cannot be saved apart from "works" that you overthrow your reason and can delude yourself into believing that a "gift" has to be worked for.

So tell us.Exactly which works are necessary in order for the sinner to obtain eternal life?Remember,these works are not the kind that one can boast about.

Please do not leave out any of the necessary "works".

Excellent point!

Can't wait for his reply.

:D

In Christ
Craig

Kevin
July 8th, 2002, 11:04 PM
Jerry,


They had been baptized with water before the time that the Holy Spirit was given.So they did not need a new water baptism,but instead needed Paul to give them the Holy Spirit.

The fact is that they did need another baptism, and that baptism was baptism in the name of the Lord, which uses water (Acts 10:47-48). Simple fact.


And if they were given a new baptism,as you maintain,and that baptism is supposed to result in them receiving "the gift of the Holy Spirit"(see Acts2:38),THEN why didn´t they receive the Holy Spirit?

The baptism "in the name of the Lord" in Acts 19 is indeed the same baptism perfomed at Acts 2:38, which was "in the name of Jesus Christ". Same thing - "in the name of the Lord" vs. "in the name of Jesus Christ". Upon this baptism, one does recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38). However, this is not the same thing when the Holy Spirit falls upon someone, giving them miraculous gifts.

Look at Acts 8:16. The Samaritans had been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus, yet the Holy Spirit had not fallen upon them. So, Peter and John came up and laid hands upon them so they could recieve the Holy Spirit. Throughout the Bible, the effect of this is recieving the ability to do miraculous things. This does not save them.

It is possible to already have the Holy Spirit, yet not have the ability to do miraculous things by the power of the Holy Spirit. Look at Acts 6:5. They had the Holy Spirit before the apostles laid hands upon them. Why do you suppose they laid hands on them if they already had the Holy Spririt? So they could do mircales by the Holy Spirit (verse 8).


Why was it still necessary for Paul to lay his hands on them before they ever received the Holy Spirit?

Do miracles is "necessary"? Hardly. Also, as I said earlier, when was the last time you saw a new convert recieve the Holy Spirit by having it fall on them, which looks like tongues of fire?

agape
July 8th, 2002, 11:18 PM
Originally posted by Evangelion
Ha! Agape spoke to me!

I guess we can see which of us has the greater self control.. Yeah...right. Only in your dreams kiddo...:D :p

agape
July 8th, 2002, 11:24 PM
Originally posted by JustAChristian

Did everyone notice the last post of Agape did not show a single proof text for his statements. More rhetoric. Can we be saved by rhetoric? When will Agape ever show that the Holy Spirit is the cleansing agent of God? He is so sure that he has been Holy Spirit baptized and cleansed of sins, but he does not show a proof text. More rhetoric.....LOL, JAC...I suggest you keep studying God's Word, you may learn something yet! Btw, did you pass the reading course in school? Maybe you need to polish up since you can't read God's Word correctly...and of which you demonstrate in your last post to Jerry :D

Can you read this?

Acts 1:5: For John truly baptized with water; BUT ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

You are calling Jesus a liar. Way to go JAC...way to go....

Kevin
July 8th, 2002, 11:29 PM
Agape,


With the mouth does not mean saying it verbally or out loud. It means you are confessing this within yourself,

LOL!!!!!! You don't even use your mouth when you confess within yourself! LOL!!! Desperation has really set in!


This is NOT WORKS. If you say it is, you are calling God a liar

Mind your tongue, and don't ever accuse me of something so foolish, especially when you can't back it... and no... your doctrine of "I don't actually have to do anything to be saved" isn't proof.


He clearly states in Ephesians "NOT OF WORKS"...lest any man should boast

And I've already agreed that we are not saved by works. Go back and answer my points if you are going to continue to ride the merry go round which you said you weren't. Make up your mind.


Hello? The point being made is that anyone can "say" with his mouth I believe or I confess and not mean any of it. They may say a lot of things, but their "hearts" were far from him. Confessing Jesus Christ as Lord has to come from the heart. It's not in saying it out loud that gets you save, it's confessing and believing it from the heart.

We are to confess Him "with the mouth", which involves an action. Of course if your heart isn't with Christ you words won't mean anything. You've got to mean what you say. None of this changes the fact that we are to confess Jesus "with the mouth".


We are to confess Him with the mouth before man. You can't do that without actually doing just that.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Again, PI on your part. Where does it say to confess "before men"???

This still doesn't change the fact that we are to confess Christ "with the mouth". I wish I could meet you in person and see you confess Christ "with the mouth" without you actually doing it. Look in the mirror and try it, perhaps you will see how rediculous your arguement is.


Thought you made up your mind. If you are going to bring this up (again), answer my points.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Having a problem with those verses cuz it makes it clear that it is NOT BY WORKS??

So, you're not going to address my points and instead repeat your same broken record. Ok.


Believing in Christ as your savior from sin and believing that God raised him from the dead automatically gets one baptized in the holy spirit.

Really? It must have looked cool to see the burning tongues resting upon your head. :rolleyes:


Wrong. It is only if we endure to the end, keeping our Lord's commandments, and being found worthy by Christ will we be saved.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For by grace are ye saved, NOT OF WORKS...lest any man should boast. Are ye boasting here?? Sounds like it.

Hebrews 5:9 state that Christ is the author of eternal salvation for all who "OBEY" Him.


When saved, a Christian never has to fear losing his everlasting life.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wrong.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You really need to stop telling God that He is wrong.

I would never tell God He's wrong... you on the other hand... not a problem, because you are.


After all, HE IS GOD, and what HE SAYS, GOES.

It's funny to hear you say that, when you don't think it's necessary to obey His commandments to be saved. To think that we are going to be in God's grace without obeying His commandments to us is ludicrous.

Kevin
July 8th, 2002, 11:44 PM
c.moore,


Yes, there is three stages,but the stages are done in the real thing and in the kingdom of God .

Scripture, please.


The spiritual baptism is the real baptism which you don`t have to represent or give an example like water baptism because this is the baptism that count for God

Scripture, please.


The water baptism is not the certain kind, it is a discription of the real thing, and water baptism is as the spiritual baptism, and water baptism is a sample of the spiritual baptism, and the water baptism is a symbol for the spiritual baptism.

Scripture, please.


If you use the word represent Kevin , then you know that the water baptism being represent can`t be the thing that baptize us for the kingdom of God, and for Our Spiritual God.

Water baptism is a visual representation of what is actually happening upon being water baptized in the name of the Lord - that we die of our sinful self, the body of sin is done away with (buried), and we are born again, walking in the Spirit. These things happen at the point of baptism. Romans 6 talks about how we are buried in baptism into Christ's death... and this is represented as well as done at the point of baptism. What is not represented by baptism is that somebody is already saved, as the denominations teach. How can one be in the grace of God without first putting the old man of sin away and being born again in Christ?


Is there a stage in which death is represented? (There is with water baptism.)

Quote c.moore
Death is not (represent) but death is DONE in the spirit baptism.

Scripture? And if you're going to try to use Romans 6, Paul, who wrote this chapter practiced baptizing in the name of the Lord. He practiced what he preached. Romans 6 is not speaking of spirit baptism. Paul wouldn't preach one baptism and practice another.


Quote Kevin
Is there a stage in which burial is represented? (There is with water baptism.)


Quote c.moore
There is no representation in the spiritual baptism , but the spiritual baptism does really take place in the spirit.
Rom 6:5. By virtue of spiritual baptism, we were "buried with Him through baptism into death" and "raised from the dead by the glory of the Father" just as Jesus was raised. Therefore we should "walk in newness of life."


Quote kevin
Is there a stage in which resurrection is represented? (There is with water baptism.)



Quote c.moore
6. Look closely at v. 5. We were "united together [immersed - baptized] in the likeness of His death" and therefore we were also baptized or immersed "in the likeness of His resurrection." We are completely identified with Jesus!

I'm glad at least that you admit that spirit baptism cannot represent the death, burial, and resurrection of a believer. You have no evidence that Paul is speaking of spirit baptism in Romans 6. I however, have a baptism that perfectly represents what is actually happening (death, burial, and resurrection), and is also backed up by the fact that this is what Paul practiced. Where's your evidence?

Kevin
July 9th, 2002, 12:03 AM
Evangelion,


Kevin - I asked you to ask Agape to pass the salt because I'm not talking to Agape anymore, and I don't think Agape's talking to me.

Oh, and please tell Agape that I'll pass the salt back when I've finished with it.

Ah... got it. :)

Kev clears his throat...

Agape, Evangelion will pass the salt back when he's finished with it, ok? :D

Evangelion
July 9th, 2002, 12:10 AM
Jerry -


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But you,Apollos,are so intent on insisting that one cannot be saved apart from "works" that you overthrow your reason and can delude yourself into believing that a "gift" has to be worked for.

So tell us.Exactly which works are necessary in order for the sinner to obtain eternal life?Remember,these works are not the kind that one can boast about.

Please do not leave out any of the necessary "works".
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, soul and strength, and thy neighbour as thyself. Worship God in spirit and in truth. Love God and keep His commandments (for His commandments are not grievous.) Very simple.

Look through the NT and you'll find plenty of God's commandments. It beats me that so many Christians try to wriggle out of them. :rolleyes:

Evangelion
July 9th, 2002, 12:11 AM
BTW - thanks Kevin! :D :up:

Evangelion
July 9th, 2002, 01:16 AM
Hey, Kevin - here's another interesting thing. You remember that HopeOfGlory has claimed that the remission of sins by the shed blood of Jesus was not taught before the conversion of the apostle Paul? And you remember that I had pointed to the Last Supper as proof that it was? And you remember that HopeOfGlory had claimed that the apostles would not have understood the symbolism of the bread and wine? (Which in turn implies that Jesus never explained it...)

Well, how about we read our Bibles, eh...?

Matthew 26:26-28.
And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Doesn't get much simpler than this, does it??!

:D

agape
July 9th, 2002, 01:24 AM
Agape,

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
With the mouth does not mean saying it verbally or out loud. It means you are confessing this within yourself,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LOL!!!!!! You don't even use your mouth when you confess within yourself! LOL!!! Desperation has really set in!LOL!!! Notice the intelligent response? It's so simple to understand. You are confessing in your mouth...you are saying, not verbally having to say it, but inwardly you are confessing and saying Jesus Christ is you Lord who died for your sins and was made alive because you believe this. Our sins are remitted and we are saved and have eternal life. Now it's ok to say it verbally if you want, but that does not make you saved. It's what one believes and confesses on the inside. It is not works of any kind that gets one saved and born again, which includes "flapping the lips." :)

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is NOT WORKS. If you say it is, you are calling God a liar
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mind your tongue, and don't ever accuse me of something so foolish, especially when you can't back it... and no... your doctrine of "I don't actually have to do anything to be saved" isn't proof. You mind the Word of God cause it's God's Word that's calling you a liar.

quote:

He clearly states in Ephesians "NOT OF WORKS"...lest any man should boast

And I've already agreed that we are not saved by works. What a joke. If you agree that we are not saved by works, then we would not be having this "so-called" discussion in the first place. :rolleyes:

Go back and answer my points if you are going to continue to ride the merry go round which you said you weren't. Make up your mind.Hey...thanks for reminding me. TA TA :D

agape
July 9th, 2002, 01:43 AM
Originally posted by Evangelion
Jerry -

Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, soul and strength, and thy neighbour as thyself. Worship God in spirit and in truth. Love God and keep His commandments (for His commandments are not grievous.) Very simple.[Can't worship God in truth and "in" spirit UNLESS you are BORN AGAIN OF HIS SPIRIT.

The New Testament starts with the Book of Romans, a doctrinal epistle concerning our justification IN CHRIST, along with Ephesians, another doctrinal epistle concerning our heavenly standing.

So, what commandments in the NT are we Christians supposedly wiggling out from?? :rolleyes:

agape
July 9th, 2002, 01:46 AM
Originally posted by Kevin
Evangelion

Agape, Evangelion will pass the salt back when he's finished with it, ok? :D Remember I said he is your master...not mine. .. LOL. Besides I got my own salt. :D

agape
July 9th, 2002, 01:50 AM
Originally posted by Kevin
c.moore,



Scripture, please.



Scripture, please.



Scripture, please.c.moore, don't bother giving him scripture over and over again...he can't read. :D

Kevin
July 9th, 2002, 02:14 AM
Agape,


LOL!!! Notice the intelligent response? It's so simple to understand

Heh... anybody with the absolute basics of intelligence would realize that to confess with the mouth involves an action. C'mon Agape, stand in front of the mirror and confess Christ with your mouth without using your mouth.


You mind the Word of God cause it's God's Word that's calling you a liar.

Wrong. You have yet to prove your case. You just keep chanting your broken record without addressing my points.


What a joke. If you agree that we are not saved by works, then we would not be having this "so-called" discussion in the first place.

Wrong again. If you would read, comprehend, and answer my points and questions, we wouldn't be having this "so called" discussion. :rolleyes:


Go back and answer my points if you are going to continue to ride the merry go round which you said you weren't. Make up your mind.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hey...thanks for reminding me. TA TA

Do you really mean it this time, or will your short term memory strike again?


Remember I said he is your master

He's not my master, he's my friend. Although, he is full of knowledge and wisdom, and I certainly have great respect for him. But that doesn't make him my master.


c.moore, don't bother giving him scripture over and over again...he can't read

I can read just fine. :)

Kevin
July 9th, 2002, 02:23 AM
Hey, Kevin - here's another interesting thing. You remember that HopeOfGlory has claimed that the remission of sins by the shed blood of Jesus was not taught before the conversion of the apostle Paul? And you remember that I had pointed to the Last Supper as proof that it was? And you remember that HopeOfGlory had claimed that the apostles would not have understood the symbolism of the bread and wine? (Which in turn implies that Jesus never explained it...)

Well, how about we read our Bibles, eh...?



Matthew 26:26-28.
And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.


Doesn't get much simpler than this, does it??!

I don't remember you pointing this out to HopeofGlory, but after reading this post, that's an excellent point! You're right, it doesn't get much plainer than that! Excellent point indeed. That completely destroys his unscriptual theory that the blood of Christ was not preached until after Paul supposedly got his new revelation from God. Great work, Evangelion! :up:

AVmetro
July 9th, 2002, 02:33 AM
Wow, you sound like a very mature Christian. Is that the best you can do?

Pot. Kettle. Black. :) Even though I'm in no wise innocent of the same.....just thought I'd point it out...

agape
July 9th, 2002, 02:38 AM
Originally posted by Kevin
Agape,
He's not my master, he's my friend. Although, he is full of knowledge and wisdom, and I certainly have great respect for that. But that doesn't make him my master.In all honesty, Kevin, I really don't care what you think about Evangelion. All I care about is the truth of God's Word, which obviously both you and him have no regard for, especially when you turn the grace of God into works for salvation. You are both calling God a liar. Birds of the same feather flock together...need I say more.

Sheesh.....:D

agape
July 9th, 2002, 02:45 AM
Originally posted by Kevin

I can read just fine.You only read what you want the Word to say...never what it truly says. :rolleyes:

Kevin
July 9th, 2002, 02:46 AM
AVmetro,


Pot. Kettle. Black. Even though I'm in no wise innocent of the same.....just thought I'd point it out...

I had already edited that out before you posted that. :) I'm know that I'm far from perfect myself.

Kevin
July 9th, 2002, 02:52 AM
Agape,


You only read what you want the Word to say...never what it truly says.

Heh. I preach what I read. It is you who tries to make the word say what you want it to say. The confessing with the mouth issue is a perfect example. You're trying to convince me that to "confess with the mouth" means to do it inwardly... which does not even involve the mouth.

Have you tried standing in the mirror and putting your logic to use? Try it. Confess Jesus "with the mouth" without using the mouth. :rolleyes:

agape
July 9th, 2002, 03:04 AM
Originally posted by Kevin
Agape,
[quote]Heh. I preach what I read. It is you who tries to make the word say what you want it to say. The confessing with the mouth issue is a perfect example. You're trying to convince me that to "confess with the mouth" means to do it inwardly... which does not even involve the mouth.But you preach wrong because you read into the Word wrong. You read it with your pre-conceived erroneous beliefs.

Not getting into the merry-go-round "mouth issue." Such a short-term memory you got there.

NOT OF WORKS...lest Kevin should boast.

Ta Ta....:D

c.moore
July 9th, 2002, 04:43 AM
Agape you said to kevin:

You only read what you want the Word to say...never what it truly says.

Quote c.moore:
Kevin also understand what he is able to understand in the flesh after reading what must be spiritual discerned.

1Co:2:10: But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Co:2:11: For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Co:2:12: Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co:2:13: Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co:2:14: But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Ro:12:3: For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Ho:4:6: My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

You are right about not giving Kevin scripture againlike a broken record, but maybe this might be the time he might want to change to the truth, and I don`t what to be resposisble for not being obedient to help my weakier brother in the faith.
Agape, we have to still see kevin as A brother in the Lord , and in Hosea says (MY people ) meaning God is talking about people who are his children,like Kevin , Justin, and EV.
Some are still drinking from the milk bottle, and some eating meat, and we need to still help the babies grow in the truth one way or another, but if they don`t accept , after a while we have to leave them alone, and they will pay the consequence,all we can is our part to just téll the true ,but I never seen in the bible convince them of the truth ,or debate them of the truth , and force them of the truth.
I will give my last try to tell Kevin the truth either he take it and grow , or stay in rebellion of his own doctrines.

I know you get my point.

God bless you, and keep telling the good and simple good news of the gospel, jesus has your reward waiting for you ,let no one or doctrine fool you into losinyour rewards.

praise God for you.

JustAChristian
July 9th, 2002, 07:14 AM
Originally posted by Agape...

Can you read this? Acts 1:5: For John truly baptized with water; BUT ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

You are calling Jesus a liar.

Way to go JAC...way to go....

Agape,

So, you think you are a part of the "ye" of Acts 1:5? Funny that the Samaratians that Philip preached to didn't think they were a part of the crowd in "ye" of Acts 1:5. Especially when Peter and John came down to Samaria, they still were not moved to tell them that they had been Holy Spirit baptized. You see, Holy Spirit baptism was always accompanied with signs manifested by the Spirit. The Samarians were not able to produce any signs until the apostles laid hands on them! (Acts 8:17-18). And since Philip couldn't transfer the gift to the Eunuch he could not produce signs but went on his way rejoicing (Acts 8:39).

No, Agape... I have it straight from the text. It is not me calling Jesus a liar! He said if I will believe the gospel and follow through with having my sins spiritually washed away in baptism, I will be forgiven of sins. By the grace of God I would then be a candidate of salvation. And, If I walk in the light as He is in the light, the blood that first cleansed me in baptism will continue to cleanse me from all unrighteousness. Agape, you really need to look closer on this. Why don't you take the day off and go fishing and relay. Meditate on the will of Christ for your salvation. You need a good "spiritual" break today!

JustAChristian

c.moore
July 9th, 2002, 09:44 AM
Hello Kevin

here is your answers and bible scriptures.


quote: c.moore
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, there is three stages,but the stages are done in the real thing and in the kingdom of God .
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
M't:25:34: Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:




Scripture, please.

John 14:17 Jesus spoke of "the Spirit of truth… but you know Him, for He dwells WITH you and WILL BE IN YOU."

Water from the baptism pool can not dwell in you , but the spirit can.

in John 15:26, "But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me."

The scripture says nothing about water of truth.

Jesus said to them, "John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now." What happened on Pentecost in chapter 2 was much more than just the filling of the Spirit, it was spiritual baptism. Peter confirmed this before the Jerusalem counsel (Acts 11:15-18).

Act 1:8"But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."

The verse doesn`t say you have power when you baptized in water.
1Co:4:20: For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The spiritual baptism is the real baptism which you don`t have to represent or give an example like water baptism because this is the baptism that count for God
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Scripture, please.

Joh:3:3: Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Look this birth is spiritual,in order A person can enter into the kingdom of God which is for all real christians the important, and main birth.
But water baptism people believe the water is the main birth to be born again.

Ga:3:26: For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Ga:3:27: For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The water baptism is not the certain kind, it is a discription of the real thing, and water baptism is as the spiritual baptism, and water baptism is a sample of the spiritual baptism, and the water baptism is a symbol for the spiritual baptism.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Scripture, please.


Ga:2:20: I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you use the word represent Kevin , then you know that the water baptism being represent can`t be the thing that baptize us for the kingdom of God, and for Our Spiritual God.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Quote by kevin
How can one be in the grace of God without first putting the old man of sin away and being born again in Christ?


quote by c.moore
Joh:3:18: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Joh:3:6: That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh:3:7: Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Ti:3:5: Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

peace

Apollos
July 9th, 2002, 09:49 AM
To all non-believers in the only baptism authorized in the NT – in WATER.

Jesus authorized HIS baptism for all nations in Matthew 28:18f. This baptism (“in His name”) is in water – Acts 10:47 and that this baptism is for remission of sins – Acts 2:38. It is the one baptism authorized and practiced in the NT.

When Jesus said that a man must be “born again” in John 3:3f He said that it includes WATER and the Spirit. TWO agents are required. Paul concurs in Ephesians 5:26,cf. Titus 3:5). HS baptism does not meet these two requirements. It takes water and the Spirit for a “new birth” !!

HS baptism is NEVER said to be FOR the remission of sins in the NT. No one is ever told to baptize another in the HS and HS baptism is NEVER administered as Jesus told His disciples to baptize all nations in Matthew 28.

HS baptism was the result of a promise to the apostles –Luke 24:49, Acts 1:4 and a fulfillment of prophesy – Acts 2:17 – “all flesh” meaning Jew & Gentile. Only –2- examples of HS baptism are found in the NT - in Acts 2 and 10.
Acts 11:15-16 clearly shows that HS baptism was an exception to events taking place in NT times. The second event took Peter back to the first event.

Acts 8 and 19 show that the APOSTLES (and only the apostles) were able to “give” the HS (not the baptism) and spiritual gifts (not salvation) was the result. Even Simon could see that “by the laying on of the apostles hands the HS was given”. Not even the wreckless HS baptism today gang will clamour that “laying on of hands” is equal to HS baptism – less they concede that it is by the hands of men that HS baptism is accomplished. That which was sent by God in Acts 2 & 10 cannot be compared to what the apostles gave by laying their hands on someone to impart spiritual gifts.

Water baptism is the means that God chose by which man appropriates the salvation offered by His grace. It will accomplish just exactly what God chose it to do – it will “wash away” your sins! This humble act of submission is ridiculed and hoo-hahed by the self-appointed religious elitists who refuse to see the “significance” in obeying God’s commands. Yet if one looks at how God did many things in the past, such as Naaman, or the blind man of John 9, we can see that water played a role in the receiving the gifts of Gods through the means God selected.

(No, it was never the efficacy of water. It was the “answer” of a good conscience in obeying what God commanded. The blessing was received WHEN the intended recipient obeyed!!)

God chose this simple means of immersion in water for appropriation of His blessing, but through years of uninformed, biased, and false teaching about “works”, and the associated prejudice with “grace” and doing the commands of God, many are blinded and will not follow the simplest command of God to obtain their salvation. They instead ignore or neglect water baptism all together and they chose for themselves a “higher calling” of pretensious HS baptism, because in this they can satisfy their aesthetic sensibilities with something more than just getting “dunked” in the water.

But such “dunking” is the means selected by God and this is revealed by the HS as necessary for one to be “sanctified” in Christ – Ephesians 5:26. This sanctification take both WATER and the WORD!! (Yes, once again TWO agents!) When one complies with the revelation of the HS, to be immersed in water to have their sins “washed away”, salvation is then accomplished “by” the Spirit. For “by” one Spirit we are all baptized into the one body. The Spirit has shown in the word that this is to be WATER baptism! Few are following the directions of the HS in regard to baptism!

(The sad fact is that the uninformed and biased have not realized that HS baptism is not now and never was for the purpose of salvation.)

“He that believes and is baptized shall be saved.”- Jesus

Give Jesus’ statement more than a few moments to soak in !!

Evangelion
July 9th, 2002, 10:07 AM
BTW - thanks for the compliments, Kevin. :up:

I think the Last Supper deserves more attention than it usually receives from Dispys. ;)

Jerry Shugart
July 9th, 2002, 10:09 AM
Apollos,

You never did tell us which "works" are necessary for salvation.Remember,these"works" must be of a type that no one can boast about them.

So please tell us which "works" are necessary for salvation,and please no leave out any of them.

If you will answer this,I will show you where your interpretation of the meaning of the Lord´s words concerning being born "of water and of the Spirit" is in error.

So come on now,Apollos,which "works" are necessary for obtaining EVERLASTING SALVATION?

In His grace,--Jerry

Evangelion
July 9th, 2002, 10:16 AM
Jerry - the answer is simple - obedience to God's commandments.

Don't you ever read the New Testament? And would you care to tell me how we can be saved without obedience?

:rolleyes:

Apollos
July 9th, 2002, 10:21 AM
Hey Jerry –

It was in the "works" (lol).......

What I am saying is man MUST do something to appropriate the gift of salvation from God. It is impossible to obtain anything, even if it is “free”, without some action on the part of the receiver. What Calvinists believe is the exception to this.

The “gift” of salvation is offered to all men (Titus 2:11). But we know all men will NOT be saved (Matt. 7:14). Then WHY are some saved and others are not??
The is answer is: What some men DO sanctifies them from the others !!
(If you disagree, tell me WHY!)

Man must do something, and those things are the “works” of God – John 6:28,29, cf. 9:4. These “works” are NOT:

Works of merit – that would allow one to say the EARNED salvation.
Works of boasting – that would allow one to brag about what they accomplished.
Works of the O.T. – these works fall into the categories above.

Perhaps this question all depends on how you “look” at, or classify “works”…

Water baptism is an excellent example of “works”. Who would, who could brag about being “dunked” in water? Who would dare say they earned salvation by a humble immersion in water?? Who would brag about such an act??

Whether it was a small stone bringing a Goliath to his knees, marching around a wall and blowing on horns to tumble a mighty Jericho wall fortress, or an arrogant Naaman washing in the Jordan river, it took OBEDIENCE to appropriate the “gift” that God offered. No obedience – no gift!.

Did they EARN it? NO! Could they brag about their actions? NO! All they could say is that they OBEYED what God said to do and they received His “blessing” – because these “works” are what God chose for them to DO !!

Romans 4:4f notwithstanding, this talks of “works” that one would peform in an attempt to EARN righteousness before God. The words here are those that describe what a hired hand receives for his wages. This TYPE of work will not be reckoned of grace because a debt is created, and must be paid to, the worker for what he has performed. Paul is saying is that you can’t earn your reward from God. Paul is not saying that there is nothing for man to do to appropriate the reward from God.

Therefore it is the TYPE of work performed – of merit or boasting – that must be distinguishd from the works one must accomplish in order to receive God’s blessing.

Grace is God’s part in salvation – faith is man’s part. Man has a PART to fulfill . Again I say, all that we should be arguing is how much or what must be accomplished by man to appropriate that “free” gift of God. Even a “free” gift must be received. What must a man do to “receive” the gift offered?

I won a televison once. I filled out a slip of paper with my name and phone # and put it into a box. The business called me and told me I had “won” the TV – it was a “free” gift. I drove down to the business, placed the TV on a cart, wheeled it out to my car, loaded into the car, and drove away. Was it “free”?? YES it was. Did I have to do something to appropriate it? Yes I did !! Could I brag I deserved it or say that I had earned it? NO!

Yes, man MUST DO SOMETHING to appropriate the “free” salvation of God. Believe the gospel, repent of your sins, confess Christ as the Son of God, and then be baptized in water for the remission of your sins. The examples of conversion in the book of Acts will bear this out.

Water baptism is the means chosen by God through which man appropriates the salvation God offers by His grace.

Jerry Shugart
July 9th, 2002, 11:28 AM
Apollos,

You say that in order to appropriate the "free" salvation of God,we must be baptized in water.And you are under the illusion that the examples of "conversion" in the book of Acts backs this up.

But let us examine the conversation of the Philippian jailer.He asked what he must do to be saved.Here is the narrative in Acts as to Paul´s response and the events that followed:

"Sirs,what must I do to be saved?

"And they said,Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ,and thou shalt be saved,and thy house.

"And they spoke unto him the WORD OF THE LORD,and to all that were in his house.

"And he took them the same hour of the night,and washed their stripes,and was baptized,he and all his,straightaway"(Acts16:30-33).

Here we see that in answer Paul did not say,"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ AND BE BAPTIZED"!

He simply said,"Believe on the Lord Jesus".

And by the narrative we can see that they were not even baptized with water until after they heard and believed the gospel and then their "stripes" were washed.

Next,we see that Peter was sent to Cornelius and his household to speak the WORDS by which Cornelius and all his household "shall be saved"(Acts11:14).

"While Peter yet spoke these WORDS,the Holy Spirit fell on all them who heard the word"(Acts10:44).

So we can see that they believed the word and immediately they were saved--and all this before a drop of water touched them.

So it is obvious that these people did not "apropriate" salvation by submitting to a rite of water baptism,because Scripture reveals that they were saved before they were ever baptized with water.

Scripture also says that the sinner is "justified freely by His grace"(Ro.3:24).The word "freely" is translated from the Greek word "doorean",meaning "without merit,without cause".

If we must submit to a rite of water baptism,then the Lord would in fact have a "cause" to justify us.That would be because we obeyed His command to be baptized with water.

But Scripture declares that we are "justified without cause".

Next,Apollos,I asked you for a list of all the "works" that are needed for EVERLASTING SALVATION.

Are the "works" you listed all the"works" needed for "everlasting salvation",or they only the works needed for "conversion"?

Would you give me all the works needed to obtain "everlasting salvation"?And remember,by your own words these "works" could not be of a type that man could boast about.

In His grace,--Jerry

JustAChristian
July 9th, 2002, 12:15 PM
Why The Essentiality Of Immersion...

When one reads the Bible, it is imperative to place context in order; to consider time and events in sequence. I teach we aught to rightly divide the scriptures. This is what I mean by “rightly dividing the word of truth.” Placing item in proper order and theme.

Paul told the church at Rome in his epistle that “For whatsoever things were written afore time were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope” (Roman 15:4). The things that were written afore time,The Old Testament, and it's authority was “nailed to the cross at the death of Christ. Paul tell us of Christ death being capable of “blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross” (Col. 2:14). Now I take this all to mean that there are limited benefits of the Law of Moses for me today. These consist in part of learning about Christ and how the people were required to conduct their religious and moral life, but that I am not bound to keep that Law (of Moses). It was taken out of the way by the New Testament or Law of Christ (Gal. 6:2).. How do I know this? Well, Jesus fulfilled the Law in His death. Paul told the Corinthian church in his second epistle, of Christ...“Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth [offered no salvation], but the spirit giveth life[offers salvation]”(2 Co4.3:6).

Before His death, Jesus Christ forgave the sins of many people (Luke 5:20; 7:48). He did this because He is God (eloiym; Strong’s Hebrew number 430); John 1:1). Jesus was even merciful to the “thief on the cross” and said “today thou shalt be with me in Paradise. We generally take that to mean that Jesus saved him at that time. The point of whether he was baptized or not is moot point. If and when I should said that the “malefactor” may have been baptized before, I am coming from the area of possibility. Whether or not he was, Jesus was able to forgive his sin or save him or cause him not to die or whatever He chose to do—up until the time of Christ’s death. After the death of Jesus on the cross, the Law [the Perfect Law of Liberty, the Gospel (James 1:25; Rom. 1:16) that He delivered to His apostles came into action. The Old Law of Moses was no longer valid. It then became only an instrument of information ( Rom. 15:4).. After Christ’s resurrection, He commissioned His apostles to go into the whole world and preach the gospel (the New Testament) of salvation (Romans 1:16) because it was the way that God would now deal with mankind. Jesus had previously said, “He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day” (Jn. 12:48). Jesus could not judge the people by His law while the Old Testament was in effect, and this is why He referenced the Old Law when making judgments before His death (Mt. 4:4-10; 21:13 etc.).

There was no forgiveness of sin ascribed to the Law of Moses as I mentioned before (2 Cor. 3:6), but when Jesus’ authority came into reality, His Law offered salvation through obedience to its commands (Hebrews 5:8-9). If a man could have kept the Old Testament Law without breaking a single commandment, he could not be condemned, but no one other that Christ ever kept it perfectly. Since no one has ever been found to be sinless ( Rom. 6:23), we need to have the “grace, mercy and blood” of Christ in our behalf. How do we obtain this? Well, how did those Jews on Pentecost at the preaching of Peter obtain it? How did Samaritan and Simon, at the preaching of Philip in Acts 8 obtain it? How did the Ephesian disciples of Apollos obtain it? How did the Ethiopian Eunuch of Acts 8, and all the rest of the convert of the New Testament obtain it? When they obeyed the commands of the New Testament (Mark 16:15-16; Heb. 5:8-9). Peter told the church concerning their souls saying, “...Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently, being born again, not of corruptible seed , but of incorruptible, by the word of God which liveth and abideth forever” (1 Peter 1:22-23). The Holy Spirit then is given to the ones that are baptized as a “token or surety of their salvation (Eph 1:13-14; Acts 2:38; Rom. 8:9). We have a covenant to guide us into all truth for it is more glorious (2 Cor. 3:11).

Baptism was never a part of the Law of Moses. When John came preaching in the wilderness, his unique manner of preaching and baptizing was never seen before by the Pharisees and Sadducees, and they asked him why he baptized (Jn 1:26). He did so to prepare the people for the coming of Christ (Mark 1:4). The potential of all in and about Jerusalem were baptized by John except the Pharisees ( Luke 7:28.29). It had its purpose: “for the remission of sins” (Mark 1:4), but it was not valid after Christ died and commissioned His apostles to “go into all the world and preach ;the gospel. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved...”(Acts 19:1-2; Mark 16:15-16). Jesus did not commission the apostle to Holy Spirit baptize but to baptize in water for the remission of sins. (Acts 2:38; Acts 8:36; Acts 10:47-49; 1 Peter 3:21). If you are looking for salvation through Holy Spirit baptism you will never find it. The scriptures are totally silent on such purpose for the Godhead member.

JustAChristian

Evangelion
July 9th, 2002, 12:19 PM
Jerry, can we be saved without obedience?

:)

agape
July 9th, 2002, 12:24 PM
Originally posted by JustAChristian
Agape,
[quote]So, you think you are a part of the "ye" of Acts 1:5?I KNOW I am a part of the "Ye" of Acts 1:5. :D

Acts 8:14ff:
And when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received [dechomai] the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John.

The failure of the Samaritan believers to receive holy spirit into manifestations and speak in tongues, as every born-again believer since Pentecost had done, brought a response and concern from the leadership. Philip needed help. The people of Samaria received deliverance in many categories yet had not believed sufficiently to speak in tongues, to manifest holy spirit. It was a spiritual problem since Simon had betwitched them for so many years (Acts 8:11). This was the first time, as recorded, that this kind of problem had arose in the first century. Peter and John prayed to God about it and God worked in them to remedy the situation. The Apostles laid their hands on them and prayed for them that they should manifest the holy spirit in them.

(15) Who [Peter and John], when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might received [lambano - into manifestation] the Holy Ghost [the gift of holy spirit into manifestations]:

(16) For as ye he [it] was fallen [into manifestation] upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus [born again].

(17) Then laid they their hands on them, and they received [lambano] the Holy Ghost [the gift into manifestation].

The people of Samaria spoke in tongues the wonderful works of God.

(18) And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost [the gift in manifestation] was given, he offered them money.

Simon saw the results of what occurred when the Samaritans spoke in tongues. He saw the power of God at work and offered them money for it.

And since Philip couldn't transfer the gift to the Eunuch he could not produce signs but went on his way rejoicing (Acts 8:39).Is this what verse 39 is saying? NO! AGAIN PI, making it say what it DOES NOT SAY. It DOES NOT SAY Philip could not transfer the gift to the eunuch and that he could not produce signs and so he went on his merry way. You are LYING.

Acts 8:35:
Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached [taught well] unto him Jesus.

Here is Philip reaching and preaching to a eunuch, one man, who was hungering and thirsting after righteousness. Philip began to make known to him Jesus, the humiliated and sanctified one. Philip had shown the eunuch Jesus Christ, the Son of God, from the scriptures, bringing him to the new birth. When Philip was done, the eunuch went on his way "rejoicing." What do you think he was REJOICING about? He knew he was saved, born again and had eternal life! Don't you think that's something worth rejoicing about? :rolleyes:

No, Agape... I have it straight from the text.No you do not have it straight at all...it's all crooked, out of context.
It is not me calling Jesus a liar! He said if I will believe the gospel and follow through with having my sins spiritually washed away in baptism, I will be forgiven of sins.God's Word teaches us that if we When we believe that Jesus Christ died for the remission of sin and arose from the dead at that moment we are immediately baptized in the holy spirit and we are saved, born again and have eternal life. For we are SAVED BY GRACE, NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast. If you do not believe this and believe you must also do works for salvation you are calling both GOD and JESUS CHRIST, LIARS.

You're the one who needs a lot of rest in order to clear the cob webs from your brain so you can start seeing more clearly what the Scriptures are truly saying. :D

Evangelion
July 9th, 2002, 12:43 PM
Nobody's answered my question yet.

Why am I not surprised?

:)

JustAChristian
July 9th, 2002, 01:06 PM
Originally posted by Agape:


I KNOW I am a part of the "Ye" of Acts 1:5.

I think you are just saying that to save face. Surely you don't place yourself on a par with the apostles!!


Acts 8:14ff:

And when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received [dechomai] the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John.

The failure of the Samaritan believers to receive holy spirit into manifestations and speak in tongues, as every born-again believer since Pentecost had done, brought a response and concern from the leadership. Philip needed help. The people of Samaria received deliverance in many categories yet had not believed sufficiently to speak in tongues, to manifest holy spirit. It was a spiritual problem since Simon had betwitched them for so many years (Acts 8:11). This was the first time, as recorded, that this kind of problem had arose in the first century. Peter and John prayed to God about it and God worked in them to remedy the situation. The Apostles laid their hands on them and prayed for them that they should manifest the holy spirit in them.

(15) Who [Peter and John], when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might received [lambano - into manifestation] the Holy Ghost [the gift of holy spirit into manifestations]:

(16) For as ye he [it] was fallen [into manifestation] upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus [born again].

(17) Then laid they their hands on them, and they received [lambano] the Holy Ghost [the gift into manifestation].

The people of Samaria spoke in tongues the wonderful works of God.

(18) And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost [the gift in manifestation] was given, he offered them money.

Simon saw the results of what occurred when the Samaritans spoke in tongues. He saw the power of God at work and offered them money for it.


What does the"ff" after Acts 8:14ff mean?


quote:

And since Philip couldn't transfer the gift to the Eunuch he could not produce signs but went on his way rejoicing (Acts 8:39).

Is this what verse 39 is saying? NO! AGAIN PI, making it say what it DOES NOT SAY. It DOES NOT SAY Philip could not transfer the gift to the eunuch and that he could not produce signs and so he went on his merry way. You are LYING.

You see, one of us has to be rational. I have told you before the "whole of anything is the sum of it's parts". When you go back to the incident of the Samaritans receiving the laying on of hands of the apostles they received the gift of the Holy Spirit. If Philip could have done this there would have been no need for the apostles to come to Samaria and impart the Spirit. Since the apostles were not with Philip on the road to Gaza there was no imparting of the Spirit to the Eunuch for the purpose of doing miracles. He did receive the measure of the Spirit as a token of salvation for this is promised to all Christians (2 Cor 1:22).


quote: No, Agape... I have it straight from the text.

No you do not have it straight at all...it's all crooked, out of context.

Rhetoric and unproven


God's Word teaches us that if we When we believe that Jesus Christ died for the remission of sin and arose from the dead at that moment we are immediately baptized in the holy spirit and we are saved, born again and have eternal life...

Bias, speculative and unproven. Straight out of Tennessee Temple College, Chattanooga, TN and the Sword of the Lord periodical. Definitely not scripture.


You're the one who needs a lot of rest in order to clear the cob webs from your brain so you can start seeing more clearly what the Scriptures are truly saying.

Whatever...

JustAChristian

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour (Titus 3:5-6).

Jesus...
1. Saves us by cleansing us of our sins.
2. Instills within us His Spirit as "downpayment on eternal life".
3. Which all who obey the Gospel receive through Jesus Christ.

Apollos
July 9th, 2002, 02:05 PM
Hey Jerry -

You skipped over the parts of my last post you did not want to deal with.

Must man do ANYTHING to obtain salvation?? OR - are you a Calvinist??

What separates the LOST from the SAVED??

I see that YOU offered no classification for WORKS. DId you agree or do you just not know there is a difference?

Did you disagree with my application of the EXAMPLES of HOW many have obtained God's blessing in the past by "works" ??

Did you agree with my analogy on the TV I won as a free gift?

And did you agree with the list of "works" I presented that brings a man to the POINT of savation - hear/believe/repent/confess/ and water baptism??

How about some answers from YOU Jerry?? You would ask questions all day if I continued to answer them!

As far as grace and being justified without cause, I think we agree there. Being dunked in water is NOT CAUSE - it is a CONDITION upon which one receives the grace.

Question: If there are no CONDITIONS to receving the GRACE of God, why do not ALL MEN receive His grace Jerry??????

Hmmm???

Apollos
July 9th, 2002, 02:09 PM
Examples of Conversion (8)– ALL were Baptized!!

Acts 2 – 3,000 – Baptized – In the name of Jesus Christ - Saved – Added to the church

Acts 8 – Simon/Samaritans – Baptized in the name of Jesus Christ
Acts 8 – Ethiopian eunuch – baptized – Rejoiced!

Acts 9 – Paul – Baptized – Sins “washed away”! – Acts 22:16

Acts 10 – Cornelius/household – Baptized in the name of Jesus Christ – saved 11:18
Acts 16 – Lydia/household – Baptized
Acts 16 – Jailor/all his – Baptized – Rejoiced greatly!

Acts 18 – Crispus/household/Corinthians – baptized – (See 1 Cor. 6:11 – Paul says they had been “washed”/”sanctified”/”justified” in the name of Jesus Christ and the spirit of God!)

Acts 19 – Ephesians(12) – Baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus Christ!

By the examples we have teaching of the gospel, believing, repentance, confession, and then water baptism. What a simple plan to save souls!

EVERY example of conversion in the NT, all in the book of Acts, shows that they were baptized – Jew and Gentile! Five of the eight occasions clearly depict that baptism was in the name of Jesus Christ. There is NO reason to question that the other three were not also. The baptism of the Great Commission spread throughout the world! Expressions of salvation and/or rejoicing come AFTER baptism.

Jerry Shugart
July 9th, 2002, 02:27 PM
Apollos,

Originally I asked what "works" are necessary for one to receive EVERLASTING SALVATION.

Instead of answering that,you only told what "works" are necessary to bring man "to a point of salvation".But we all know that to you just coming to "a point of salvation" does not mean the same thing as EVERLASTING SALVATION.

Now,if you want me to know the true meaning of the Lord´s words at John 3:5,you must first answer my initial question.

In His grace,--Jerry

agape
July 9th, 2002, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by JustAChristian
Originally posted by Agape:
I think you are just saying that to save face. Surely you don't place yourself on a par with the apostles!!LOL...another winner. I most certainly do place myself on a par with the apostles. You think they were the ones baptized?? How ridiculous. They were baptized and I was baptized in the holy spirit and we all have the same gift and measure of faith! They are saved by grace, born again of God's Spirit and have eternal life just like me! :D

You see, one of us has to be rational.Yes, true and it always seems like I have to be the rational one. Oh well. :D

When you go back to the incident of the Samaritans receiving the laying on of hands of the apostles they received the gift of the Holy Spirit. If Philip could have done this there would have been no need for the apostles to come to Samaria and impart the Spirit.[Please re-read what I state.

Since the apostles were not with Philip on the road to Gaza there was no imparting of the Spirit to the Eunuch for the purpose of doing miracles.Obviously they didn't need to be there as they did with the Samaritan. Again, re-read what I posted. :rolleyes:

He did receive the measure of the Spirit as a token of salvation for this is promised to all Christians (2 Cor 1:22).[/quoted]He received the gift of holy spirit, was saved, born again and received eternal life just like all the others who believed in Christ. The holy spirit is also a token, because we received it because we believed of our salvation, being saved, born again and receiving eternal life.
[quote]Rhetoric and unprovenJAC...when it comes to "rhetoric and unproven" you are KING.

Bias, speculative and unproven. Straight out of Tennessee Temple College, Chattanooga, TN and the Sword of the Lord periodical. Definitely not scripture.And YOU SHOULD KNOW. Bias, speculative, unproven are words that best describe you and often demonstrated in your post as you falsely explain God's Word, make it up as you go along, privately interpret it and take it out way out of context.

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour (Titus 3:5-6).A wonderful verse of Scripture! Praise God! NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS...NOT OF YOURSELVES. BUT according os his mercy HE SAVED US through the washing of regeneration...THROUGH THE INWARD CLEANSING of the HOLY GHOST...BAPTISM WITH HOLY SPIRIT...AND RENEWING of the HOLY GHOST...which he SHED ON US ABUNDANTLY "THROUGH" JESUS CHRIST OUR SAVIOR. Real beautiful. Salvation and eternal life freely given to us. How wonderful our God truly is...loving and merciful. :)

Jesus...
1. Saves us by cleansing us of our sins.
2. Instills within us His Spirit as "downpayment on eternal life".
3. Which all who obey the Gospel receive through Jesus Christ. See what I mean how you fit the description of being bias, speculative, PI, making things up as you go alone, taking the Word way out of context,..etc.? Jesus Christ shed his blood for the remission of our sins once and for all. God's Spirit in us is NOT A DOWNPAYMENT...It is God's incorruptible seed/eternal holy-life spirit in us which we receive BY FAITH ONLY OR ALONE, are save, born again and have eternal life.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that NOT OF YOURSELVES: [it is] the gift of God:

NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast. :)

JustAChristian
July 9th, 2002, 03:50 PM
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart
Apollos,

Originally I asked what "works" are necessary for one to receive EVERLASTING SALVATION.

Instead of answering that,you only told what "works" are necessary to bring man "to a point of salvation".But we all know that to you just coming to "a point of salvation" does not mean the same thing as EVERLASTING SALVATION.

Now,if you want me to know the true meaning of the Lord´s words at John 3:5,you must first answer my initial question.

In His grace,--Jerry

Jerry,
Jesus made it so plain and it will always be the same...

"Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed" John 8:31.

"Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:54.

"To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life" Romans 2:7.

" Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses." 1 Tim 6:12

"That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life." Titus 3:7

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." Jude 1:21


When one continues doing what Jesus has said to do in their life they will be rewarded with eternal life.

JustAChristian


Before there is eternal life there must be obedience Mark 16:16.

c.moore
July 9th, 2002, 05:30 PM
Hello Kevin

here is your answers and bible scriptures.


quote: c.moore
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, there is three stages,but the stages are done in the real thing and in the kingdom of God .
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
M't:25:34: Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:




Scripture, please.

John 14:17 Jesus spoke of "the Spirit of truth… but you know Him, for He dwells WITH you and WILL BE IN YOU."

Water from the baptism pool can not dwell in you , but the spirit can.

in John 15:26, "But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me."

The scripture says nothing about water of truth.

Jesus said to them, "John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now." What happened on Pentecost in chapter 2 was much more than just the filling of the Spirit, it was spiritual baptism. Peter confirmed this before the Jerusalem counsel (Acts 11:15-18).

Act 1:8"But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."

The verse doesn`t say you have power when you baptized in water.
1Co:4:20: For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The spiritual baptism is the real baptism which you don`t have to represent or give an example like water baptism because this is the baptism that count for God
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Scripture, please.

Joh:3:3: Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Look this birth is spiritual,in order A person can enter into the kingdom of God which is for all real christians the important, and main birth.
But water baptism people believe the water is the main birth to be born again.

Ga:3:26: For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Ga:3:27: For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The water baptism is not the certain kind, it is a discription of the real thing, and water baptism is as the spiritual baptism, and water baptism is a sample of the spiritual baptism, and the water baptism is a symbol for the spiritual baptism.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Scripture, please.


Ga:2:20: I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you use the word represent Kevin , then you know that the water baptism being represent can`t be the thing that baptize us for the kingdom of God, and for Our Spiritual God.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Quote by kevin
How can one be in the grace of God without first putting the old man of sin away and being born again in Christ?


quote by c.moore
Joh:3:18: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Joh:3:6: That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh:3:7: Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Ti:3:5: Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

peace:)

Kevin
July 9th, 2002, 08:01 PM
c.moore,

Why do you spam the forums with posts that you've already posted? If it's to get my attention to answer it, you have to keep in mind that I don't sit at my computer every spare moment clicking the refresh button with hours and hours to spend replying. I have a full time job.


John 14:17 Jesus spoke of "the Spirit of truth… but you know Him, for He dwells WITH you and WILL BE IN YOU."

Water from the baptism pool can not dwell in you , but the spirit can.

What makes you think that one doesn't recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit when baptized in the name of the Lord? You do recieve it in that baptism (Acts 2:38).

When was the last time you saw a new convert with a flaming tongue over thier head? That's what happens in spriit baptism. The Holy Spirit also fell upon people in the Old Testament (Numbers 11:25). Did this save them? No. Did this put them "INTO CHRIST"? Impossible, for He hadn't come yet. The falling of the Holy Sprit didn't save them or put them "into Christ" any more than it did when it happened in the New Testament.


Jesus said to them, "John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now." What happened on Pentecost in chapter 2 was much more than just the filling of the Spirit

Speaking of Pentacost, what was the baptism used at the conversion of new believers? What was it, c.moore? It was baptism in the name of the Lord, which does use water. Why didn't they recieve the spirit baptism?

When Phillip baptized the eunuch in Acts 8:38 after preaching Christ, was is spirit baptism, or the baptism in the name of the Lord which uses water? Well, considering that Phillip baptized him by going down into the water tells me that it was baptism in the name of the Lord. Why wasn't he spirit baptized?


Act 1:8"But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."

The verse doesn`t say you have power when you baptized in water.

Yeah, and what's your point? He was speaking to the apostles, that they would recieve when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and it did in Acts 2:4. Christ was not saying this was going to happen to everybody! He was talking to the apostles! Like I said, when was the last time you saw the Holy Spirit fall upon a new convert, which looks like tongues of fire. And again, why did these same apostles baptize new converts in the name of Jesus rather than administering spirit baptism? Why?


Joh:3:3: Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Look this birth is spiritual,in order A person can enter into the kingdom of God which is for all real christians the important, and main birth.
But water baptism people believe the water is the main birth to be born again.

Yeah, and if you would just read a bit further, you would see how one is reborn. Look in verse 5 where it talks about how a person is reborn... by water and the spirit. That is perfectly consistent with the fact that baptism in the name of the Lord is what was practiced, and that it uses water (Acts 10:47-48) as well as bestowing the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38).


Ga:3:26: For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Ga:3:27: For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Yes, it's that faith which leads a person to being baptized in the Lord's name. That just goes right along with Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved! And what was the baptism practiced by the apostles? Baptism in the name of the Lord. Why do you suppose that is?


The water baptism is not the certain kind, it is a discription of the real thing, and water baptism is as the spiritual baptism, and water baptism is a sample of the spiritual baptism, and the water baptism is a symbol for the spiritual baptism.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Scripture, please.


Ga:2:20: I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Nowhere in there did I see it saying that baptism in the name of the Lord is a "description of the real thing". Try again.


Quote by kevin
How can one be in the grace of God without first putting the old man of sin away and being born again in Christ?


quote by c.moore
Joh:3:18: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Joh:3:6: That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh:3:7: Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

You quote John 3:6-7 which speaks about being born again, yet leave out the verse (verse 5) which speaks about how to be born again: WATER and the spirit.

Kevin
July 9th, 2002, 08:12 PM
Agape,

Heh. I preach what I read. It is you who tries to make the word say what you want it to say. The confessing with the mouth issue is a perfect example. You're trying to convince me that to "confess with the mouth" means to do it inwardly... which does not even involve the mouth.
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But you preach wrong because you read into the Word wrong. You read it with your pre-conceived erroneous beliefs.

Not getting into the merry-go-round "mouth issue." Such a short-term memory you got there.

That's just it... there are some things in life that doesn't take any "reading into", because they're so simple and logical. Even a child would understand the basic fact that if we are to do something with the mouth, that that means we actually have to use our mouths. A child would get that.

"Confess" is the verb - you know - an action. "With the mouth" tell how we are to do that action, and your logic says to do it inside, not using the very thing that we are supposed to use - the mouth!

Your stubborness and pride is nothing short of pathetic. I bet if the topic was not about theology, you would have no problem understand the SIMPLE concept of using your mouth.

This kind of thing is good in the sense that it just shows how ridiculous your argument is, what extent that people will go to defend their arguement regardless of basic reasoning or logic, and what blind pride can do to a person. Thanks!

I can easily see why Evangelion didn't want to speak to you. It doesn't do much good to speak to a person who completely throws reasoning and logic out the window. But then again, to defend your doctrine would indeed require that one throws out logic and reasoning. :rolleyes:

Kevin
July 9th, 2002, 09:24 PM
Apollos,

Just wanted to let you know that you're doing a great job... keep up the good work!

H'mong
July 9th, 2002, 09:48 PM
Interesting discussion. I think Scripture is clear that", baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ," At Baptism we testify to the new birth and a good conscience towards God. To not be baptized is a sign of disobedience in declaring one's faith and there was no such thing as Christians who refused baptism in the Book of Acts. For one to refuse Baptism is to refuse to acknowledge the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as Lord of one's life. On the other hand to say that Water Baptism regenerates us or imparts the new birth makes Baptism into a golden calf and builds salvation upon a Christian ordinance/sacrament rather than Jesus Christ. Baptism is simply the outward declaration that one has faith in Christ.

Grace to you all


:)

Kevin
July 9th, 2002, 10:41 PM
H'mong,


On the other hand to say that Water Baptism regenerates us or imparts the new birth makes Baptism into a golden calf and builds salvation upon a Christian ordinance/sacrament rather than Jesus Christ.

Actually, Romans 6:1-11, which is speaking of baptism, does indeed support the idea that baptism makes us born again into Christ.


Baptism is simply the outward declaration that one has faith in Christ.

Nowhere in scripture will you find baptism defined in this manner. This is the common teaching of man, not of God. Romans 6 speaks of what baptism does for us... that it allows us to put away our old man of sin and be born again into Christ. This is what baptism does for us. It's not a declaration, and nor is it an outward show of faith for other Christians.

drbrumley
July 9th, 2002, 10:51 PM
Kevin,


What makes you think that one doesn't recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit when baptized in the name of the Lord? You do recieve it in that baptism (Acts 2:38).

In the first place, your example of Acts 2:38 show that under the Kingdom gospel, water babtism was a requirement, but it does not prove that the physical water was the cause of spiritual regeneration. Water can only ceremonially wash the flesh, according to 1 Peter 3:21.

There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Even the blood of bulls and goats could not take away sins according to Hebrews 10:4, For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins. , but only sanctified to the purifying of the flesh according to Hebrews 9:13,
For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

The early church fathers who believed in baptismal regeneration recognized the fact that water could not effect a spiritual renewal.

Even if John 3:5 referred to to water baptism, it still remains that the new birth was by both water and Spirit

But the question arises, did Christ mean to refer to water baptism in His words to Nicodemus? It is significant that Jesus used water in this Gospel a number of times in a figurative or spiritual sense. Surely the living water which He offered the woman at the well was not literal water. And when He said:
"out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water", we are plainly told that He was speaking of the Holy Spirit. Even the Old Testament prophets used water as representing the Holy Spirit and His work. Would anyone suppose that isaiah was speaking of holes in the ground when he said: "Therefore with joy shall you draw water out of the wells of salvation" (Is. 12:3) And is the writer to the Hebrews, after having told us of the absolute inability of holy water to cleanse from sin, going back to the weak and beggarly elements when he says:" Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water"?

It is my belief that the water in John 3:5 is the Holy Spirit, and that the "and" (kai) should be translated "even," making the passage read: "Except a man be born of water, even of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God."


You do recieve it in that baptism (Acts 2:38).

No you receive it before. Otherwise you are not saved. It is the Holy Spirit bearing witness to your spirit that He is indeed real. Then you confess by mouth that you are a sinner and need the work of the cross applied to you. And then you become a child of the living God.

Kevin
July 9th, 2002, 11:12 PM
drbrumley,


In the first place, your example of Acts 2:38 show that under the Kingdom gospel, water babtism was a requirement, but it does not prove that the physical water was the cause of spiritual regeneration. Water can only ceremonially wash the flesh, according to 1 Peter 3:21.

This is such a common misconception about those who advocate the necessity of water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ. I have never stated that it is the water which causes spiritual regeneration. Never. Water is simply the element chosen by God to be used in baptism.


Even if John 3:5 referred to to water baptism, it still remains that the new birth was by both water and Spirit.

Agreed. Both of those requirements are met by the baptism of the Lord.


It is my belief that the water in John 3:5 is the Holy Spirit, and that the "and" (kai) should be translated "even," making the passage read: "Except a man be born of water, even of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God."

By all means, stick with your translation. I'll stick with the translations of the mojor canons - "and".


You do recieve it in that baptism (Acts 2:38).
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No you receive it before.

Really? So when was the last time that you saw a flaming tongue descend upon somebody, which is what happens when the Holy Spirit falls on somebody (Acts 2:3)?


Otherwise you are not saved.

To be saved, we must be "in Christ". Baptism in the name of the Lord is what puts us "in Christ". If your claiming that spirit baptism puts us in Christ, then you would have to explain how it was possible for the people in the book of Numbers 11:25 to be "in Christ" when He hadn't come yet. The Holy Spirit fell upon them, which gave them miraculous abilities. The same goes for the people who had this happen to them in the New Testament, they recieved the ability to do miraculous things, which does not save us.

The people in Acts 10:44 had the Holy Spirit fall upon them, yet, Peter still had them baptized in the name of the Lord. Why do you suppose that is, if they were already supposedly saved?

drbrumley
July 10th, 2002, 12:51 AM
Kevin,


I'll stick with the translations of the mojor canons - "and".

Well FYI, And and even is the SAME word in Greek. "kai"


So when was the last that you saw a flaming tongue descend upon somebody, which is what happens when the Holy Spirit falls on somebody (Acts 2:3)?

Now Kevin, I would like you to step back and get a hold of yourself because you are lost in your own world.

You said specifically that "which is what happens when the Holy Spirit falls on somebody." But within that same post, you make this wonderful comment.


The people in Acts 10:44 had the Holy Spirit fall upon them, yet, Peter still had them baptized in the name of the Lord.

My question to you then is this: Where are the cloven tongues of fire? I mean the Holy Spirit fell on them as you said but you also said the Cloven Tongues of Fire is what happens when the Holy Spirit falls on someone. And by the way, since you are saved, and the Holy Spirit lives within you, did you have the Cloven Tongues upon you? Just wondering.


To be saved, we must be "in Christ".

True statement.


Baptism in the name of the Lord is what puts us "in Christ".

Another true statement.


If your claiming that spirit baptism puts us in Christ, then you would have to explain how it was possible for the people in the book of Numbers 11:25 to be "in Christ" when He hadn't come yet

Well, for starters, Jesus clearly identified Himself with the Jehovah of the Old Testament. But that is not the main point. The main point is what I told Evangelion on a debate we are having. Let me quote from that.


It is by the blood of Christ that ALL men have been saved. Past, Present, and Future.

Also:


God did not tell Able, or Noah, or Abram, or Moses, or David to beleive the same message that Paul told the Phillippian jailer:"Beleive on the Lord Jesus and thou shalt be saved." But all these men believed the message that God gave them and they were all saved on the basis of faith.

You said:

The Holy Spirit fell upon them, which gave them miraculous abilities.

Agreed.


The same goes for the people who had this happen to them in the New Testament, they recieved the ability to do miraculous things, which does not save us.

Right there is your mistake. You are lumping them with us. This Dispensation of Grace has NOTHING to do with the Kingdom that was offered Isreal. Or the Mosiac Law as you referenced Isreal in Numbers.

Kevin
July 10th, 2002, 01:33 AM
drbrumley,


The people in Acts 10:44 had the Holy Spirit fall upon them, yet, Peter still had them baptized in the name of the Lord.
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My question to you then is this: Where are the cloven tongues of fire? I mean the Holy Spirit fell on them as you said but you also said the Cloven Tongues of Fire is what happens when the Holy Spirit falls on someone.

Are you suggesting that the falling of the HS in Acts 10:44 didn't appear as burning tongues? Do you have any evidence to support this? In Acts 2:3, when the HS fell upon the apostles, it was described as being as tongues of fire. It gave them the ability to do miraculous things. Why wouldn't it have happened in the same manner (burning tongues) to the Gentiles in Acts 10:44? As I pointed out earlier, in Numbers 11:25, the HS rested upon their heads, just like in Acts 2:3. If that's what it looks like in Acts 2:3, then what's to say it didn't happen when the same Spirit fell upon anybody?


And by the way, since you are saved, and the Holy Spirit lives within you, did you have the Cloven Tongues upon you?

First of all, I consider myself in a state of salvation/state of grace. I won't consider myself "saved" until Jesus judges me worthy of salvation at the judgement seat.

And no, of course I didn't have the cloven tongues upon me. That's my whole point. If spirit baptism saves us, then new converts would have the tongues of fire upon accpeting Christ. This doesn't happen. Don't you know that I'm against the idea that spirit baptism saves us?


To be saved, we must be "in Christ".
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True statement.

Progress. :)


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Baptism in the name of the Lord is what puts us "in Christ".
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Another true statement.

More progress. By the way, since you are agreeing with that statment, do you realize that baptism in the name of the Lord involves water (Acts 10:47-48)?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If your claiming that spirit baptism puts us in Christ, then you would have to explain how it was possible for the people in the book of Numbers 11:25 to be "in Christ" when He hadn't come yet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Well, for starters, Jesus clearly identified Himself with the Jehovah of the Old Testament. But that is not the main point.

Setback. That really has no bearing on the fact that it was impossible to be "in Christ" until Christ died on the cross. One cannot be "in Christ" without being baptized into His death, and one cannot be baptized into a death until that death had actually occured.


It is by the blood of Christ that ALL men have been saved. Past, Present, and Future.

Agreed, but it still doesn't change the fact that it's impossible for one to be "in Christ" before His death.


God did not tell Able, or Noah, or Abram, or Moses, or David to beleive the same message that Paul told the Phillippian jailer:"Beleive on the Lord Jesus and thou shalt be saved." But all these men believed the message that God gave them and they were all saved on the basis of faith.

Agreed, but it still doesn't change the fact that it's impossible for one to be "in Christ" before His death.


You said:

quote:
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The Holy Spirit fell upon them, which gave them miraculous abilities.
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Agreed.

Ah... back on the road of progress! :)


Right there is your mistake. You are lumping them with us. This Dispensation of Grace has NOTHING to do with the Kingdom that was offered Isreal. Or the Mosiac Law as you referenced Isreal in Numbers.

I think there's a misunderstanding here. I would never pretend that the people under the Mosaic Law is lumped in with our dispensation.

What I'm "lumping in" is the Holy Spirit. The Spirit spoken of in Numbers 11:25 is the same Spirit spoken of in Acts 10:44. In both cases, that same Spirit had the same effect upon the recipients - miraculous abilities. If one is going to claim that the falling of the HS is what put those people in Acts 10:44 into Christ, then, to be consistent, one would have to hold the same thought for the people in Numbers, even though they were in a different dispensation; because it was the same Spirit with the same effect.

Again, you admitted that the baptism in the name of the Lord is what puts us into Christ. Well, the baptism in the name of the Lord, which is done with water, was done AFTER the HS fell upon the Gentiles in Acts 10:47-48. That is what puts us into Christ, not the falling of the HS, which is why Peter had them baptized in the name of the Lord after the HS fell on them.

agape
July 10th, 2002, 02:06 AM
:down:
Originally posted by JustAChristian
Why The Essentiality Of Immersion...
Jesus did not commission the apostle to Holy Spirit baptize but to baptize in water for the remission of sins. (Acts 2:38; Acts 8:36; Acts 10:47-49; 1 Peter 3:21). If you are looking for salvation through Holy Spirit baptism you will never find it. The scriptures are totally silent on such purpose for the Godhead member.Your post is just a "longer" version of fallacy. A Religious Private Interpretation if ever I did one...:rolleyes:

More LIES or should I say the "same old lies" once again. Jesus Christ himself said.

Acts 1:5:
For John truly baptized [past tense] with water; but ye shall be[future tense] baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days. Jesus makes it very clear what baptism is to take place from then on, which, of course, and obviously, if one can read...HOLY SPIRIT BAPTISM. The BAPTISM that would "come not many days hence."

You then say Jesus Christ told them to baptize with water, which the word "WATER" IS NOT IN MENTIONED IN THE VERSE. YOUR OWN PI...short and simple. :rolleyes:

See how you just turned the truth of being baptized with water as opposed to what Jesus himself stated which is baptism with Holy Spirit into a BIG LIE???

It you are looking for salvation thru "water baptism" you will never find it..."water "baptism went down the drain when Christ himself brought us salvation and eternal life through "spirit baptism." :D

agape
July 10th, 2002, 02:12 AM
Kevin,

LOL ...Evangelion responding or not makes no difference to me nor does it change the truth of God's Word ...AND it certainly does not throw out the fact that you have been wrongly dividing the Word of God and turning it into a lie. :rolleyes:

Btw, you "continue" to show a great lack of common sense and logic and disrespect when it comes to the scriptures. Also, putting in your own PI will NEVER change the truth. ;)

As far as the active mouthy thing goes which you still got wrong...remember...got off the merry-go-round with you on that one. Ta Ta ...:D

c.moore
July 10th, 2002, 03:46 AM
Kevin Quoted:

What makes you think that one doesn't recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit when baptized in the name of the Lord? You do recieve it in that baptism (Acts 2:38).

Quote c.moore

Sorry, I don`t believe this to be A water baptism scripture, it A spiritual baptism acts 2:38
Is there mentioned any where in Acts 2 about water ,or A pool, or A river,or ocean,sea, ?????

Now in Acts 8:38 I can see and undersstand A water baptism is taken place in this situation.

you can`t just add water onto every where you see A word baptism, that why I started befroe a thread asking what scripture are spiritual baptism and what scripture are water baptism.

I seen people take this scripture about it hard or impossible for A rich man to go through the eye of A needle, so some peole add that all rich people can not be saved so we must be poor so we can go through this needle. Every time they see rich or money they look at this as being damned from God,and they lose thier blessing to be rich, and stay in a low class mentality.

the baptism of John , is also A water baptism, and I can understand that, but some of the scripture you translate is out of context Kevin and you get decieved.


Quote kevin
The falling of the Holy Sprit didn't save them or put them "into Christ" any more than it did when it happened in the New Testament.


Quote c.moore
The Holy spirit in the OT fel on people , but that`s why in the NT they waited so the Spirit could come IN them ,and live IN them, so we can be Baptised in the Holy Spirit,when the Spirit is in us,praise God.

Jesus said: I must go so that the Holy Spirit might come.

Quote Kevin
Speaking of Pentacost, what was the baptism used at the conversion of new believers? What was it, c.moore?


Quote c.moore

Being baptized in the blood of Jesus was the conversion of new believers M't:26:28: For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

The verse doesn`t say like you believe for this is the water of the NT shed for our sin Kevin.

Ac:1:8: But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Joh:3:5: Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh:3:6: That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh:3:7: Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.


Quote Kevin
When Phillip baptized the eunuch in Acts 8:38 after preaching Christ, was is spirit baptism, or the baptism in the name of the Lord which uses water? Well, considering that Phillip baptized him by going down into the water tells me that it was baptism in the name of the Lord. Why wasn't he spirit baptized?


Quote c.moore
The Spiritual baptism in the Blood of Jesus is taken place as soon as they believe the Word and accept Jesus blood for remission of thier sin. Notice you said (AFTER) the Word preached ,so they must be born of the Word of God and believe first,then the blood Of Jesus baptism covers or better to explain thier sins was immirge unders the blood of Jesus praise God.
Ac:3:19: Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Ac:3:20: And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
We should be (covered )by Jesus blood,before any natural ritual water baptism showing what the Blood of Jesus did for us praise God, so Eunuch was Spiritual baptised when he believed
Ac:8:37: And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. AMEN

Quote Kevin
why did these same apostles baptize new converts in the name of Jesus rather than administering spirit baptism? Why?


Quote c.moore
They did admistrate spiritual baptism when they preached the word with power, and boldness, and repentance by using the blood of Jesus not the water baptism of OT John the baptist.
That why I used those scriptures I showed you in act1, and Ac:4:31: And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.
Ac:4:32: And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.



Quote Kevin:
Yeah, and if you would just read a bit further, you would see how one is reborn. Look in verse 5 where it talks about how a person is reborn... by water and the spirit.


Quote c.moore

to be spiritual born again you have to get the information on how this is done like Nicodemus ask Jesus and we know the Jesus is the living Word, so nicodemus first had to be newly taught, or the new birth, so he was born also of the word of God or born into A new teaching.
Ti:3:5: Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Eph:5:26: That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
Joh:15:3: Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.



I hope you can see this , because this is spiritual and the flesh can`t understand the spiritual thing, please look at this with the Holy spirit Kevin.

Born of the water is not meaning we are fishes or frogs, and I don`t think Jesus was reminding Nicodemus that he was born as A human being and he is not A alien or from mars.
Just like we know Jesus is not A door we know the interpretation of the scripture that Jesus is the way to go to Him like going through A door ,so the same interpretation you need by knowledge of knowing what born of water is, and not try to think we are born again in a water pool or river,or natural water or even A water baptism pool.
Like I said before anybody can take scripture out of context and make up thier own doctrine to be true ,and even form thier own religion out of it biblically.
I hope you are not one of these people Kevin, please show yourself facts that say this is saying water baptism rituals.
I guess you are A good swimmer,or you have a pool in your house ,but try to stop putting natural water in verses you see with baptism ,and you need to check out scripture which is protaining to water as the Word of God ,and water to baptism, or bread to eat ,and also bread as also as the Word of God, or when the bible say thier is christian that drink milk is not meaning these christians are real babies that are 3 month years old and they are still drinking milk bottle as christians, or when the bible says some christians eat meat are all grown christains only eat steaks, and hamburgers all thier live get my point Kevin?
I hope this help you to see the truth of our understanding.

Let God bless you
peace

drbrumley
July 10th, 2002, 04:33 AM
Kevin,



Are you suggesting that the falling of the HS in Acts 10:44 didn't appear as burning tongues?

I'm not suggesting, I'm telling you. Where in Scripture does it tell you Acts 10:44 manifestation of the Holy Spirit is Cloven Tongues of Fire? Your grasping for straws .


Do you have any evidence to support this?

Nope but neither do you to support that so we are even in that regard.


In Acts 2:3, when the HS fell upon the apostles, it was described as being as tongues of fire.

That's what it says.


It gave them the ability to do miraculous things.

This is true, but the Apostles were doing "supernatural" things even before this, so what's your point?


Why wouldn't it have happened in the same manner (burning tongues) to the Gentiles in Acts 10:44?

In my opinion, if this was the case, I'm pretty sure Scripture would have mentioned it.


As I pointed out earlier, in Numbers 11:25, the HS rested upon their heads, just like in Acts 2:3.

Yes, it seems to match. Still doesn't prove or provide any evidence of what your assuming.


If that's what it looks like in Acts 2:3, then what's to say it didn't happen when the same Spirit fell upon anybody?

This is where the problem is. Because of the flawed logic that you have saying:


I won't consider myself "saved" until Jesus judges me worthy of salvation at the judgement seat

You come up with highly flawed theology that says:


If spirit baptism saves us, then new converts would have the tongues of fire upon accpeting Christ.

Where is the Scripture for this? You can't provide it because IT ISN'T THERE. Just step back a minute and really think this over. Please Pray about it. Then you say:


The Spirit spoken of in Numbers 11:25 is the same Spirit spoken of in Acts 10:44.

Agreed.


In both cases, that same Spirit had the same effect upon the recipients - miraculous abilities.

True again, but it's pretty funny you seem to be backing away from Cloven Tongues of Fire.


If one is going to claim that the falling of the HS is what put those people in Acts 10:44 into Christ, then, to be consistent, one would have to hold the same thought for the people in Numbers, even though they were in a different dispensation; because it was the same Spirit with the same effect.

Agreed. Which leads me to this: from previous post, I said:


But all these men believed the message that God gave them and they were all saved on the basis of faith.


Again, you admitted that the baptism in the name of the Lord is what puts us into Christ.

Yep, I stand by that statement.


Well, the baptism in the name of the Lord, which is done with water, was done AFTER the HS fell upon the Gentiles in Acts 10:47-48.

Agreed for the most part. Only problem with that statement is you assume water is included now. It was then, but not now. In this DISPENSATION.


That is what puts us into Christ, not the falling of the HS, which is why Peter had them baptized in the name of the Lord after the HS fell on them.

See above answer.

Next post deals with "State of Salvation." Man how Satan has duped people.

Apollos
July 10th, 2002, 07:11 AM
Jerry -

You definitely have an agenda to pursue. So instead of ignoring most of what I am posting, why not just pursue that agenda.

Kevin
July 10th, 2002, 10:02 AM
Agape,


Btw, you "continue" to show a great lack of common sense and logic and disrespect when it comes to the scriptures.

Coming from a man who can't even admit that "with the mouth" means actually means using your mouth, your comment means very little.


As far as the active mouthy thing goes which you still got wrong...remember...got off the merry-go-round with you on that one. Ta Ta ...

Yet more evidence of blind pride at it's best! Go ask anybody with basic intelligence what it means to do something "with the mouth". Then, tell them that you think it means not actually using the mouth... and watch their reaction. LOL! You're not doing any favors for yourself. Pathetic... and you can't even admit it... even more pathetic!

JustAChristian
July 10th, 2002, 10:07 AM
Kevin,

You are taking a lot of hit but you are standing up real well. I have started a new thread recently ; "Does The Scriptures Support Eternal Punishment" and have been real busy like you. Keep up the good work.

JustAChristian

H'mong
July 10th, 2002, 12:29 PM
Hi Kevin,

You said,



Actually, Romans 6:1-11, which is speaking of baptism, does indeed support the idea that baptism makes us born again into Christ.

I have no quarell with Romans 6:1-11. Baptism is a pledge of a good conscience towards God. For believers, going under the water shows that our old self has been buried and of the eternal life we have in Christ and the promise of a future resurrection.


Nowhere in scripture will you find baptism defined in this manner. This is the common teaching of man, not of God. Romans 6 speaks of what baptism does for us... that it allows us to put away our old man of sin and be born again into Christ. This is what baptism does for us. It's not a declaration, and nor is it an outward show of faith for other Christians.

Actually it is espoused in 1 Peter 3:21. Peter does say "Baptism now saves you" - but also adds "Not the removal of dirt from the flesh,the pledge of a good conscience toward God - through the resurrection of Jesus Christ." Peter is stating that Baptism is the symbolic expression us being born again. It is one's public confession of the work God has done in them. The other ordinance, the Lord's Supper also expresses this each time we paratake it when we comune with His Body and Blood in remembering His death and testifying of the work God has done in us also. Both Baptism and the Lord's Supper are ouward declarations of an inward change that has occured in our lives.

Grace to you :)

Evangelion
July 10th, 2002, 01:07 PM
JAC -


Kevin,

You are taking a lot of hit but you are standing up real well.

The hits are nothing but powder puffs. Kevin's good for it. :up:

:)

agape
July 10th, 2002, 01:25 PM
Originally posted by Evangelion
JAC -
The hits are nothing but powder puffs. Kevin's good for it. :up:
Standing up well with those who believe the same lies maybe...but standing up well with God and the truth of His Word is an entirely different story of which none of you are accomplishing. It's your private interpretations that are nothing but "powder puff" :down:

:p

c.moore
July 10th, 2002, 01:53 PM
It's your private interpretations that are nothing but "powder puff"

That is so true Agape:up:

God bless

Apollos
July 10th, 2002, 04:03 PM
The Jailor at Philippi –

Acts 16:30 – Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

Even awakening out of sleep the jailor asked if there was something he must do to be saved.

Paul and Silas said – Believe on the Lord Jesus. Ah yes, there is something for man to do to be saved. (But exactly what was he to believe? What did they mean by “believe on the Lord”?)

And they spake the word of the Lord unto [the jailor]. (What did they say? How much of the word did the jailor receive/need to know before he could be saved? At what point was the jailor saved?)

The same hour of the night, the jailor was baptized – immediately! (What is the rush? Why the urgency?)
<<<<*>>>>

There was something for man TO DO to be saved. This was to “believe on the Lord”.

To believe “on the Lord” means to accept and do what He said. In Acts 2:21 and 22:16 it is referred to as “calling on the name of the Lord”. In a fuller sense, this means to appeal to the authority of the Lord Jesus. (And Jesus now has ALL authority – Matthew 28:18.)

If you “call” on the Lord Jesus, be prepared to accept what He says and do what He requires. To not accept and not do what the Lord requires of you is but an abject failure to “call” upon His name.

It was after hearing the “word of the Lord”, that same hour, immediately, the jailor was (water) baptized! Having returned home, the jailor rejoiced greatly!

Was the Jailor some type of rare exception to water baptism and “calling upon the name of the Lord”? No.

Philip “preached Jesus” to the Eunuch – Acts 8:35. “Preaching Jesus” caused the Eunuch to ask Philip what was “hindering” him from being baptized in water. “Preaching Jesus” included teaching on water baptism and the need for it!

Cornelius sent for Peter “to hear words” by which he would be saved –Acts 10:22,33,44, 11:14. The culmination of the words was Acts 10:47 – “Can any man forbid water that these should not be baptized…” Peter then, with words, commanded Cornelius to be baptized in water. The words Peter preached included water baptism and the command for it! Peter’s words led Cornelius to be saved.

Jesus said, “He that believes and is baptized shall be saved.” – Mark 16:16

It looks as if the eunuch and Cornelius, as well as the jailor “believed” on the Lord Jesus!

drbrumley
July 10th, 2002, 08:35 PM
Kevin,

Assurance of Salvation can come only from accepting the scriptural teaching that salvation is the free gift of God's grace to undeserving sinners entirely apart from any and all human works. This fact is plainly stated in a number of passages in which I will share with you now. Many you have probably heard from others.

1 Romans 3:19-28 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus , 25whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

2. Romans 8 33Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. 34Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36As it is written: "For Your sake we are killed all day long; We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter."[37Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

3. Romans 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." 4Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

4. Eph. 2:8For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not of works, lest anyone should boast

5. Titus 3:5not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

The Bible plainly teaches Assurance. God wants you to know that you are saved.

All you really need to do is just look at the following verses:

1. 1 Thessalonians 1:5

2. Colossians 2:2

3. Hebrews 10:22

4. Hebrews 6:17-18

5. 1 John 5:13

Assurance comes only from a commitment of self to Christ Jesus as Savior. This means that there must be a genuine spiritual experience of accepting Jesus Christ as Savior. It is not sufficient merely to give mental assent to the facts of the Bible, or to join a religious organization, or to be baptized. You must recognize himself as a lost and condemned sinner, without God and without hope, and voluntarily entrust self to Jesus Christ on the basis of His redeeming death. When you do this, God does His work of regeneration, imparting His Spirit to you or me.

Apollos
July 10th, 2002, 09:57 PM
Hey Dr.B -

I visited your "confession of faith".

Article IV - Salvation:

Salvation involves the redemption of the whole man, and is offered freely to all who accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour...

What does it mean for man to ACCEPT Jesus Christ???
WHAT does this involve??? Hmmm???

Later under subsection A - it mentions repentance. Does this repentance come BEFORE or AFTER the sinner receives salvation?

Please let us know. Thankx!!

Kevin
July 10th, 2002, 11:58 PM
c.moore,


What makes you think that one doesn't recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit when baptized in the name of the Lord? You do recieve it in that baptism (Acts 2:38).

Quote c.moore

Sorry, I don`t believe this to be A water baptism scripture, it A spiritual baptism acts 2:38
Is there mentioned any where in Acts 2 about water ,or A pool, or A river,or ocean,sea, ?????

As I've pointed out several times, baptism "in the name of the Lord" uses water, which is proven in Acts 10:47-48. Now, the people in Acts 2:38 were batpized "in the name of Jesus Christ". Compare the two:

Baptism in the "name of the Lord"
Baptism in the "name of Jesus Christ"

Is not Jesus Christ our Lord? YES HE IS. Both baptisms are in the name of the same person: Jesus Christ, our Lord. And since Acts 10:47-48 shows that baptism in the name of the Lord is done with water, then the baptism spoken of in Acts 2:38 uses water also, for they are the same baptism in the same name of the same person!!! There's ONE baptism, and it's done the SAME way.


Now in Acts 8:38 I can see and undersstand A water baptism is taken place in this situation.

you can`t just add water onto every where you see A word baptism, that why I started befroe a thread asking what scripture are spiritual baptism and what scripture are water baptism

Again, baptism in the name of the Lord is what puts us into Christ, and is what the apostles practiced when converting people.


Quote kevin
The falling of the Holy Sprit didn't save them or put them "into Christ" any more than it did when it happened in the New Testament.


Quote c.moore
The Holy spirit in the OT fel on people , but that`s why in the NT they waited so the Spirit could come IN them ,and live IN them, so we can be Baptised in the Holy Spirit,when the Spirit is in us,praise God.

Don't you see the connection? In both senarios, the HS fell on people and gave them miraculous abilities. This does not put us in Christ. If it does, then you have to say the people in Numbers were in Christ, because the same Spirit rested upon them and the the same thing.


Quote Kevin
Speaking of Pentacost, what was the baptism used at the conversion of new believers? What was it, c.moore?


Quote c.moore

Being baptized in the blood of Jesus was the conversion of new believers M't:26:28:

I don't know what translation you use, but mine shows that they were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, which is done with water. Tell me what tanslation you are using so I can see where it says in Acts 2:38 that they were baptized in the blood of Jesus. :rolleyes:


The Spiritual baptism in the Blood of Jesus is taken place as soon as they believe the Word and accept Jesus blood for remission of thier sin.

Show me in scripture where it says that when one believes that they are baptized for the remission of sins as soon as they believe the word. In the Great Commission, Jesus told MAN to baptize, therefore, the baptism spoken of in the Great Commission can't possibly be the falling of the HS, for man doesn't do that! By the way, there is no baptism in the blood of Jesus.


so Eunuch was Spiritual baptised when he believed

Scripture?


Ac:8:37: And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. AMEN

Yup, and he acted upon his belief and obeyed the gospel by being baptized into Christ! Faith only didn't cut it for him!


why did these same apostles baptize new converts in the name of Jesus rather than administering spirit baptism? Why?


Quote c.moore
They did admistrate spiritual baptism when they preached the word with power, and boldness[/qoute]

There's record of the apostles praying that people may recieve the HS, but this only gave them miraculous abilities, this does not forgive sins. Again, this same Spirit fell upon the people in Numbers, and it certainly didn't forgive their sins. And if you're suggesting that this is the baptism that saves, I guess we are all screwed, for only the apostles had the ability to lay on hands for one to recieve the HS. This is not the baptism that is spoken of when new converts give their lives to Christ. It is the baptism in the name of the Lord, which is spoken of in relation to new converts throughout the book of Acts. That is the baptism that was practiced by the apostles when converting people.

[quote]Ti:3:5: Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Eph:5:26: That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word

You're trying to make this say something it's not. We have clear example in the New Testament were converted with baptism in the name of the Lord, which most certainly uses water.


Like I said before anybody can take scripture out of context and make up thier own doctrine to be true ,and even form thier own religion out of it biblically.

Amen.


or when the bible say thier is christian that drink milk is not meaning these christians are real babies that are 3 month years old and they are still drinking milk bottle as christians, or when the bible says some christians eat meat are all grown christains only eat steaks, and hamburgers all thier live get my point Kevin?

I get your point, c.moore. This isn't the first time I've seen you say this. You have every right to believe that, but that doesn't make you right. :)

Kevin
July 11th, 2002, 12:43 AM
drbrumley,


Are you suggesting that the falling of the HS in Acts 10:44 didn't appear as burning tongues?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I'm not suggesting, I'm telling you. Where in Scripture does it tell you Acts 10:44 manifestation of the Holy Spirit is Cloven Tongues of Fire? Your grasping for straws .

Yes, well your declaration is empty. You have no evidence to support that the falling of the Holy Spirit, which is visually described in Acts 2:3, is any different when the SAME Spirit fell upon those people in Acts 10:44. It is you who is grasping at straws.


Do you have any evidence to support this?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Nope but neither do you to support that so we are even in that regard.

Wrong. I have Biblical evidence to show that falling of the HS can be visibly seen (Acts 2:3). The burden of proof is on you to explain why it would be seen in one place, yet not seen in another.

By the way, the HS fell upon Jesus in Matt. 3:16. It is described as "alighting" upon Him. So we have yet another place where it speaks of the falling of the HS, and it being seen. What, do you think it's mere coincidence? :rolleyes: It is I who has the evidence, not you.


It gave them the ability to do miraculous things.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



This is true, but the Apostles were doing "supernatural" things even before this, so what's your point?

My point is that the purpose of the falling of the HS was not to put them into Christ, it was to give them "power" (Acts 1:8), just as it gave the people in Numbers the power to prophecy.


Why wouldn't it have happened in the same manner (burning tongues) to the Gentiles in Acts 10:44?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



In my opinion, if this was the case, I'm pretty sure Scripture would have mentioned it.

So your argument soley rests on omission, that is, it's not spoken of in that specific verse. I have shown more than one example that would show it was indeed seen in Acts 10:44. You have no evidence to counter this.

Going by your logic of omission, let's look at Ephesians 2:8. It says that we are saved by grace through faith. Now, according to your logic, I could argue that the blood of Jesus and repentance has nothing to do with our salvation, because it's not mentioned in that verse. But we know that that is ridiculous, but so is your argument of omission, in light of the evidence that I have that shown. If I didn't have any Biblical evidence to show that the falling of the HS is visual, then your arguement would be valid, because I would have not evidence to counter it. But this is not the case, for I do have evidence to counter it.


As I pointed out earlier, in Numbers 11:25, the HS rested upon their heads, just like in Acts 2:3.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Yes, it seems to match. Still doesn't prove or provide any evidence of what your assuming.

Sure it does! It shows consistency, which is my entire arguement!


You come up with highly flawed theology that says:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If spirit baptism saves us, then new converts would have the tongues of fire upon accpeting Christ.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Where is the Scripture for this? You can't provide it because IT ISN'T THERE

But I HAVE shown multiple scriptures to support this. All you have is an empty argument of omission, which is easily refuted by the evidence that I've shown which supports the consistency of my argument. Where is your evidence?


In both cases, that same Spirit had the same effect upon the recipients - miraculous abilities.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



True again, but it's pretty funny you seem to be backing away from Cloven Tongues of Fire.

Again, the purpose was to show consistency, which it does show, and you agreed to - "Yes, it seems to match." And yes, I do contend that it was visual as it was in the NT. I have evidence to support this, you don't.


Well, the baptism in the name of the Lord, which is done with water, was done AFTER the HS fell upon the Gentiles in Acts 10:47-48.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Agreed for the most part. Only problem with that statement is you assume water is included now.

Show me in scripture where it says that the baptism in the name of the Lord will no longer use water. What, did God get it wrong at first or something? Why would it have changed?

c.moore
July 11th, 2002, 12:50 AM
As I've pointed out several times, baptism "in the name of the Lord" uses water, which is proven in Acts 10:47-48. Now, the people in Acts 2:38 were batpized "in the name of Jesus Christ". Compare the two:
· Baptism in the "name of the Lord"
· Baptism in the "name of Jesus Christ


But you miss something again in the scripture you mention , and that is they were spiritual baptized before any ritual baptism:D

Of course we must use Jesus name because it the baptism of being washed in His blood that saves.

In a baptism you don`t say in the name of water,you say the name that make you saved Jesus and his blood , not water.

I will continue , but I must stop now,I`ll be back

peace

Kevin
July 11th, 2002, 12:56 AM
drbrumley,

This is in regards to your post about my "state of salvation" comment.

I agree that "The Bible plainly teaches Assurance", but that assurance is only good as long as the believer stays within God's grace, which one can fall from (Gal. 5:4). One can fall from God's saving grace. That's why I call it a state of salvation, because we are in that state as long as we keep God's commandments. If we stray from them, we are no longer in God's grace, thus no longer in a state of salvation.

When and IF we are judged worthy of Heaven by Jesus, then we are "saved", and nothing will ever be able to take that away. But while we are still alive in this mortal body, we have the ability to turn our backs on God and fall from His grace.

Kevin
July 11th, 2002, 12:59 AM
c.moore,


In a baptism you don`t say in the name of water,you say the name that make you saved Jesus and his blood , not water.

Um, hello? I pointed out that the baptism in the name of the Lord USES WATER (ACTS 10:47-48). Why do you continaully ignore this simple fact?

Why do I bother debating a person who won't even acknowledge what I say... :mad:

Kevin
July 11th, 2002, 01:02 AM
JAC, Evangelion,

Thanks for the support guys! :up:

Kevin
July 11th, 2002, 01:42 AM
H'mong,


I have no quarell with Romans 6:1-11.

Good. :)


For believers, going under the water shows that our old self has been buried

"Has been" buried... as in past tense? Nope. Baptism is what actually buries our old man of sin, as stated in Romans 6. Verse 5 is the conditional verse. IF we have been baptized into His death, then we have put away our old man of sin, not before. It goes on in verse 7 to say that "He who has died" has been freed from sin. The condition of being freed from in is dying with Christ through baptism. That is the Biblically stated purpose of baptism, which is a far cry from baptism being "simply the outward declaration that one has faith in Christ."


Actually it is espoused in 1 Peter 3:21. Peter does say "Baptism now saves you" - but also adds "Not the removal of dirt from the flesh,the pledge of a good conscience toward God - through the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

"Not the removal of flesh" - well of course the water doesn't save. This is said because baptism's purpose isn't a physical cleansing, it's a spiritual cleansing. This does not mean that water isn't used, however. The same guy who wrote 1 Peter 3:21 practiced baptizing people in the name of the Lord, which uses water, as spoken by Peter himself (Acts 10:47-48).

"The answer of a good conscience towards God" - Indeed, a good conscience towards God would cause one to be baptized into Christ. When a person is baptized into Christ, that person has a "good conscience towards God" because he has obeyed the command of baptism and it reborn in Christ, putting away the old man of sin. The eunuch in Acts 8:36 is a good example of this. AFTER he was baptized, he went on his way, rejoicing... having a good conscience towards God.


Peter is stating that Baptism is the symbolic expression us being born again.

No, Peter is saying that baptism now saves us.

Evangelion
July 11th, 2002, 02:03 AM
No worries, mate. :up:

:)

c.moore
July 11th, 2002, 06:00 AM
. Both baptisms are in the name of the same person: Jesus Christ, our Lord. And since Acts 10:47-48 shows that baptism in the name of the Lord is done with water, then the baptism spoken of in Acts 2:38 uses water also, for they are the same baptism in the same name of the same person!!! There's ONE baptism, and it's done the SAME way.



Acts 2 cames before acts 10.
Act2 is verifying that the Holy Ghost baptism came before water baptism which is proved in Acts 10.

this is why your answer saying that we recieve the spiritual baptism when we come out the water is false, and backwards according to the word of God.

You also make a assumption that Acts 2 is meaning water baptism when there is still no water mentionin the text like in Act 10,there is something wrong here in your interpretaion again.:confused:

The Book of Acts is mainly about the Holy Spirit coming, and people full with power, and wittnessing the Word of God with boldness, and Acts describe the work of the risen Christ, not the old John the baptist baptismo ritual,but more on the Holy Spirit , and the Spiritual baptism which many were waitng for.




, baptism in the name of the Lord is what puts us into Christ, and is what the apostles practiced when converting people.


Don`t you see that being baptized in the name is spiritual.
Do you really think that you write the name of Jesus on the bottom of the pool or you throw big cut out words of in the name of Jesus in the water and you go down in the water with the cut out name of the Lord in the water ?

No this is all spiritual either way,praise God.


I can`t see where it says in Acts 2:38 that they were baptized in the blood of Jesus.


Look at what repentance is , and how is our sin forgiven, by the blood of Jesus,not water forgives , it`s Jesus that forgive, and make us white as snow.

1Jo:1:7: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.




Show me in scripture where it says that when one believes that they are baptized for the remission of sins as soon as they believe the word.


Ac:8:37: And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Ac:11:14: Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
Ac:11:15: And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Ac:11:16: Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Ac:11:17: Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
Ac:11:18: When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Quote c.moore
so Eunuch was Spiritual baptised when he believed


Scripture?


Ac:8:36: And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
Ac:8:37: And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Ac:10:47: Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Look here Kevin which have received the Holy Ghost that is before the water baptism,so eunuch was baptized before any water ritual baptism demostrating of the spiritual.


I get your point, c.moore. This isn't the first time I've seen you say this. You have every right to believe that, but that doesn't make you right.


Thank god that this is just your opinion, and not God`s:)

let God bless you
peace

agape
July 11th, 2002, 06:51 AM
Kevin,

Romans 6:1-6 and following are all referring to is "SPIRIT BAPTISM" NOT WATER, which is the OLD BAPTISM OF JOHN.

Acts 1:5:
For John truly baptized with water; BUT YE SHALL BE BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST not many days hence.

Jesus gave this truth after he died for our sins, was buried and raised from the dead. These words were part of the last words he spoke before ascending to his Father.

Acts 1:2-9:
Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

(3) To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

(4) And, being assembled together with [them], commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, [saith he], ye have heard of me.

(5) For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

(6) When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

(7) And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

(8) But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

(9) And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

His final command to them was; "BUT YE SHALL BE BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT." ...NOT WATER.

Kevin, you are teaching a false doctrine. You are defying the words of Christ.

Jesus also said to Nicodemus:

John 3:5-7:
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Except a man be BORN OF THE SPIRIT, HE "CANNOT ENTER" INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD. "YE MUST BE BORN OF THE SPIRIT."

Never once, in the scriptures, will you find "ye must be water baptized to enter into the Kingdom of God." There is NO salvation or eternal life received with H20, never was and never will be. "SPIRIT BAPTISM" is the ONE and ONLY ONE TRUE BAPTISM.

Now can the Word of God, TRUTH, make it MORE PLAIN? I think not. :)

Please Note:

(I hope everyone can see how Kevin writes his own bible.

One example out of numerous ones, Kevin states: "AFTER he was baptized, he went on his way, rejoicing... having a good conscience towards God."

Note how he ties in what is written in Peter, with what's written concerning the eunuch. He ADDS HIS OWN WORDS to "after he was baptized he went on his way rejoicing...WORDS ADDED...> "having a good conscience towards God."

Does it say that??...NO IT DOES NOT. He does this all the time concerning different subjects within God's Word.

Here he does it to try to convince others that the eunuch was not baptized with the holy spirit, but with water only. The eunuch, within the context, went away rejoicing because Philip expounded the scriptures to the eunuch and preached Christ to him. Philip, who was already baptized himself with the holy spirit and born again, led the eunuch, who believed what Philip taught concerning Christ, into being baptized according to what Jesus Christ taught..."BUT YE SHALL BE BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST." This is the true reason why the eunuch could walk away "rejoicing." He was born of the Spirit and he had entrance into the Kingdom of God.

Now that's the truth of God's Word.

So sneaky of you Kevin...tsk, tsk. :rolleyes:

Pilgrimagain
July 11th, 2002, 08:04 AM
keep twistin and turning. It looks like you'ld be a good twister partner!

Apollos
July 11th, 2002, 08:35 AM
Kevin -

I was wondering...

Was my post on the Philippian jailor unreadable? No one chose to comment on it from the anti-baptism side. Just wondering. :confused:

(Btw, keep up the good work. You are very logical and straight-forward. Some of the answers you receive are so... lame!)

agape
July 11th, 2002, 10:39 AM
Originally posted by Apollos
Kevin -

(Btw, keep up the good work. You are very logical and straight-forward. Some of the answers you receive are so... lame!) Unfortunately logical and straight only in your eyes because you see the Word of God with the same man-made religious cockeyed view as Kevin. :p

Apollos
July 11th, 2002, 11:48 AM
agape -

Your thorough and eloquent refutation of my post on the jailor speaks for itself.

JustAChristian
July 11th, 2002, 03:31 PM
Originally posted by agape
Unfortunately logical and straight only in your eyes because you see the Word of God with the same man-made religious cockeyed view as Kevin. :p

Agape wanted to know something about Holy Spirit vs. Water Baptism. I'm glad I could teach him...


This is not logical! It is clear there are two baptisms with only one being effectual with the message. Water baptism is a "work" performed by man and Spirit baptism is performed by Christ.

I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Matt. 3:11 (KJV)

Spirit baptism has superceded water baptism......Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 2 Cor. 5:16 (KJV)
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 2 Cor. 5:17 (KJV)



Craig says that I am not being logical. Even though I have given him a bible reference for one baptism, he insist that it is not logical! This comes from a lack of proper scriptural interpretation. The prophet Joel said that God would "pour out His Spirit on all flesh." (Joel 2:28). "All flesh" to the Jew consisted of Jew or Gentile. The apostles on the Pentecost after the resurrection of Jesus received the outpouring of the Spirit (Lk 24:48; Acts 2:1-4). When the house of Cornelius was receiving the gospel, Peter said, "Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water, but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, what was I, that I could withstand God?" (Acts 11:16-17). Peter and the Jewish brethren, who had not believed that what they were doing was fully pleasing to God, had to be shown that God indeed was approving their presence. There was a baptism of the Holy Spirit of the Gentiles, thus completing the prophesy of Joel and then Peter commanded that they be baptized in water (Acts 10:48). Holy Spirit does not supercede water baptism. Water baptism continues throughout the New Testament from this time, but Holy Spirit baptism does. The gift of the Spirit is manifested in the lives of many people from this time, but that was through the laying on of hands of the apostles (Acts 8:17; Acts 14:6).

Craig has made reference to 2 Cor. 5:16, but I fail to see a correlation. He also references 2 Cor. 5:17 which is a true statement, but has he failed to see how we get into Christ. Perhaps he will reference Galatians 3:26-27 in his next entry.




"Amen to that brother (Spirit baptism)! The confusion of rightly dividing God's word is clear within your statement! Your are claiming a message (Acts 2:38) that is void of two things....Christ die for yous sins and that His blood cleanses us from sins. The Pentecostal message is void of this truth! Faith in his blood is the very essence of our salvation unto eternal life. We are saved the moment be believe. Those at Pentecost did not have this faith and thus did not receive eternal life. The kingdom was put on hold and it was offered to the Gentiles because they did not believe. It is never even mentioned to them at Pentecost that Christ died for their sins. or that his shed blood washes away their sins. Where is the faith in what we believe in mentioned at Pentecost?"

Craig fail to understand that the gospel message is filled with that Christ died for out sin ( 1 Cor. 15:3). He shed his blood for out sins (Matthew 26:28;Eph 1:7), even those Gentiles that were "afar off" Acts 2:39; Eph 2:13). We have only that portion of the sermon that God wanted recorded from Pentecost, but what we have is sufficient to tell us that the Holy Spirit did not fall upon more of the Jews than the apostles, and that they that gladly heard the message "we baptized" (Acts 2:41) and the Lord added them to His church. Craig makes an assertion, "The kingdom was put on hold and not offered to the Gentiles." Where does Craig get a biblical record of the kingdom being put on hold? Does he not know that Paul preached of God's action to the Colossian church saying: "Giving thanks unto the Father...who had translated us out of darkness INTO THE KINGDOM of His dear Son" (Col. 1:12-13). Now, that tells me that the Kingdom was present tense. It was in actuality. It wasn't future, it wasn't put on hold. It was then and there and remains unto this day. Craig has been taught not to accept simple scripture. There are more verses that show the Kingdom of Christ to be in existence today, but what I have said should suffice. When Christ returns, he will deliver up the Kingdom to God (1 Cor. 15:24). If the Kingdom is on hold, then what is going to be delivered up? O, I know, Craig is going to put us through a seven years of Great Tribulation before Christ comes. He is going to have the church raptured and cars empty on the highway all over town. Imagine that, Christ returning and every eye not seeing him (Rev. 1:7).


Craig continues with these Biblical references:[Quote "Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; The apostles did not believe in his shed blood and they had no understanding of it. Their remission of sins came through water baptism. They were not baptized by the Spirit into the body of Christ through faith."

The only water baptism of the apostles of Jesus Christ, with the exception of Paul's is evidenced by that of John's baptism or that of Jesus before they were sent out on the limited commission. If under John's baptism, it was to prepare them to receive the Lord when he would come, in the remission of their sins (Mark 1:3-4). Paul's baptism in water was to wash away his sins (Acts 22:16). The Hebrew writer said the blood of Christ purged our conscience from dead works (sin) to serve the living God. (Heb. 9:14). We were not purged from sins by the Holy Spirit. Also, I agree also that they were not baptized into the body of Christ by the Holy Spirit as the element. The apostles and those with them as they began to preach on Pentecost constituted the church, and the Lord added to the church those that gladly received His word and were baptized (Acts 2:47). No one can be added to the Church of the Lord Jesus and be eternally saved that will not be immersed for the remission of sins. Show the verse that refutes this, if you can!!!!

Craig tries to tell us that the “kingdom that is was put on hold” He believes that when Peter was preaching at Pentecost he was not converted to the Lord. He goes on to say that Paul converted Peter. Imagine that, Peter was preaching the gospel some 8-10 years before Paul began to preach, and during all that time he wasn’t converted. Paul said that when he first came to Jerusalem he came to see Peter, James and John who seemed to be pillers in the church (Gal. 2:9). Here is where Paul, I guess converts Peter. I do see where he had charged him to his face at Antioch, because he discriminated among his brethren (Gal. 2:11). I believe though, that Peter was an apostles at this time and needed not converting only correction.


Jesus is telling them the way to eternal life is faith in his blood but it offends them. Peter says that Jesus has the words but he does not say he has faith in it. Peter does say that he believes Jesus is the Son of God. Remember in Luke 22:32 Jesus said that he would be converted later on. Jesus said he chose the twelve and one is a devil. His choosing them was not based on their faith in his death, burial , and resurrection which baptizes us into the body by the Spirit. His choice was based on their belief that he was the Son of God and they could be a witness to his death."

Craig still dwells on Peter being converted. Jesus did mention that Peter would be converted, but this has reference to his repenting of his sins for denying the Lord three times (Mark 14:30; James 1:19; Luke 22:31-32). His choice of the apostles was based on His all knowing power on the hearts of all man. (John 15:19).

The Bible is so clear on baptism for the remission of sins. It was intended for every generation (Mark 16:15-16). Only those who will be immersed can be added to the church. (Acts 2:41-47). The church is the body of Christ (Col. 1:18). Christ is the savior of the body (Eph 5:23). The body of Christ will be delivered to God at Christ's return (1 Cor. 15:24). Since the church is the body and the body will go to heaven, its important to be in it. This takes place when someone is baptized into the body, the church (Gal 3:27). If you are not in the spiritual body of Christ as a result of faithful immersion you stand in jeporty of losing your soul.

JustAChristian

Kevin
July 11th, 2002, 07:16 PM
Apollos,


Your thorough and eloquent refutation of my post on the jailor speaks for itself.

Hehehe... you have to remember that we are dealing with somebody who does not realize that doing something "with the mouth" means that the mouth is actually used! :D

If he can't grasp that simple concept, I doubt he will logically be able to deal with your post.

And by the way, thanks for your compliments and support. :up:

Evangelion
July 11th, 2002, 08:28 PM
ROTFL... :D :up: :up:

Kevin
July 11th, 2002, 10:56 PM
c.moore,


Acts 2 cames before acts 10.

Indeed. Everybody stop what you are doing and pay attention... c.moore and I agree on something! ;)


Act2 is verifying that the Holy Ghost baptism came before water baptism which is proved in Acts 10.

No, all Acts 2:3-4 verifies is that the HS fell upon the aptostles, which gave them power (Acts 1:8). This does put away our old man of sin and make in Christ. The fact of the matter is when these same apostles went out and preached to the sinners in the first recorded gospel sermon, the believers were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, which uses water (Acts 10:47-48). You have yet to address this simple fact.

Another thing, in the Great Commission, Jesus commanded MAN to baptize people. When the Holy Spirit falls upon somebody, God does that at His choosing.


You also make a assumption that Acts 2 is meaning water baptism when there is still no water mentionin

There is no assumption. I have already shown you scriptual evidence that backs up the fact that Acts 2:38 is speaking of water baptism. Here it is again... try reading, comprehending, and actually addressing it this time instead of pretending like I've never addressed this issue:

As I've pointed out several times, baptism "in the name of the Lord" uses water, which is proven in Acts 10:47-48. Now, the people in Acts 2:38 were batpized "in the name of Jesus Christ". Compare the two:

Baptism in the "name of the Lord"
Baptism in the "name of Jesus Christ"

Is not Jesus Christ our Lord? YES HE IS. Both baptisms are in the name of the same person: Jesus Christ, our Lord. And since Acts 10:47-48 shows that baptism in the name of the Lord is done with water, then the baptism spoken of in Acts 2:38 uses water also, for they are the same baptism in the same name of the same person!!! There's ONE baptism, and it's done the SAME way.


, baptism in the name of the Lord is what puts us into Christ, and is what the apostles practiced when converting people.
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Don`t you see that being baptized in the name is spiritual.

Of course it's spiritual, you just don't seem to realize that it's performed with water (Acts 10:47-48 -- try READING this so I don't have to repeat myself OVER and OVER). Spirit baptism, which God does, NOT MAN (and it was MAN who was commanded to baptize), comes down and looks like tongues of fire, giving the recipients miraculous abilities. When was the last time you saw this happen to a new believer? This EXACT thing happened to the people in Numbers 11:25, and that certainly didn't put them into Christ!


I can`t see where it says in Acts 2:38 that they were baptized in the blood of Jesus.
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Look at what repentance is , and how is our sin forgiven, by the blood of Jesus,not water forgives , it`s Jesus that forgive, and make us white as snow.

Yes, I know that the blood of Jesus covers our sins. But it's ONLY going to benefit those who are IN Christ. It is through BAPTISM that we are IN Christ, at which point our sins are forgiven because of His blood. We get baptized so we can be in Christ and have our sins for forgiven through His blood, that's why I've been saying that baptism is FOR the remission of sins. The water doesn't cover our sins, and I've said this SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO many times so you can stop rambling about water not forgiving our sins WHEN I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT IT DID!!! :mad: You're just making an assumption that because we say baptism involves water, which it does, that it actually forgives sins, which we've never claimed!


Show me in scripture where it says that when one believes that they are baptized for the remission of sins as soon as they believe the word.
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Ac:8:37: And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Don't you realize that the eunuch was baptized by a man, and it involved WATER? The baptism you are speaking of, is NOT done by man, it is done by God. It falls from the sky! The baptism you are defending does not use water, this senario DOES. You picked a poor example.


Ac:11:14: Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
Ac:11:15: And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Ac:11:16: Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Ac:11:17: Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
Ac:11:18: When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

This is Peter recounting Acts 10:44-48. The falling of the HS didn't save them, for why would Peter feel the need to have them baptized (in water) in the name of the Lord after the HS had already fallen upon them? In Acts 11:17, Peter is simply saying that it is undeniable that God also had a relationship with the Gentiles, and who could withstand God? That was the reason the HS fell upon the Gentiles in Acts 10:44, to prove that the Jews were no longer God's only chosen people. Why do you think it said in Acts 10:45 that the Jews were "astonished"? Because the HS had been poured out on Gentiles for the first time, and the Jews were acustomed to being God's ONLY chosen people. That (falling of HS) doesn't save anybody. If that's what put them "into Christ", then to be consistent, it also put the people in Numbers 11:25 "into Christ" (which is impossible, for He hadn't come yet)... for it was the SAME spirit, with the same results - power.


so Eunuch was Spiritual baptised when he believed


quote:
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Scripture?
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Ac:8:36: And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
Ac:8:37: And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

That's funny, both Philip and the eunuch knew what is commanded by the Lord, for the eunuch said "see, here is WATER; what doth hinder me to be baptized?" That's the baptism commanded and that's what was practiced. The falling of the HS doesn't save anybody.

If that's what saves people, then why didn't I see the HS decending upon me as it did in the NT? Why? I certainly believe in the Lord Jesus and confess with the mouth that He is my Lord. Why am I not filled with all these great powers if this supposedly happened everytime a believer accepts Christ?

Again, the baptism mentioned in the great commission was commanded that MAN do it. Therefore, it has to be water baptism in the name of the Lord, for man can't baptize with the HS, God does that. So, the fact is that MAN is commanded to baptize, and Phillip (MAN) baptized the believer (the eunuch) with WATER. Too bad you can't accept this simple fact.


I get your point, c.moore. This isn't the first time I've seen you say this. You have every right to believe that, but that doesn't make you right.
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Thank god that this is just your opinion, and not God`s

Get this through your head - it is YOUR opinion that I'm stuck on milk and not ready for the meat. It is MY opinion that you are wrong. You can say something like "well, I have the word of God and it says you're wrong"... but I have the word of God also, and I think YOU are wrong. We will find out what God thinks for sure at judgement... you know... when we are judged by our works. :rolleyes:

Kevin
July 11th, 2002, 11:28 PM
Agape,


Romans 6:1-6 and following are all referring to is "SPIRIT BAPTISM" NOT WATER, which is the OLD BAPTISM OF JOHN.

You're short term memory crisis strikes again. I have told you MORE THAN ONCE that I am referring to baptism in the name of the Lord, which uses water (Acts 10:47-48), and is entirely different that John's baptism (Acts 19). You just don't listen, do you?

Paul wrote about the baptism in Romans 6 and Paul practiced baptism in the name of the Lord (Acts 19). The people in Acts 19 were in John's baptism and were re-baptized in the name of the Lord, which also uses WATER (Acts 10:47-48).

HS baptism falls from the sky and rests upon people's heads. GOD does this. The baptism that was commanded in the Great Commission commanded MAN to baptize. So, MAN practice this baptism in Acts 2:38 and Acts 10:47-48 by baptizing them in the name of the Lord with WATER.

HS baptism causes the recipients to have power. The people in Numbers 11:25 fell upon them, which game them power. This did NOT put them into Christ anymore than the falling of the HS did in the New Testament.


Kevin, you are teaching a false doctrine. You are defying the words of Christ.

Hardly.


Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Except a man be BORN OF THE SPIRIT, HE "CANNOT ENTER" INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD. "YE MUST BE BORN OF THE SPIRIT."

Wrong. The bible says that man must be born of WATER and the Spirit, not just of the Spirit. And this is exactly what was practiced by being baptized in the name of the Lord (Acts 2:38 - Acts 10:47-48).


One example out of numerous ones, Kevin states: "AFTER he was baptized, he went on his way, rejoicing... having a good conscience towards God."

Note how he ties in what is written in Peter, with what's written concerning the eunuch. He ADDS HIS OWN WORDS to "after he was baptized he went on his way rejoicing...WORDS ADDED...> "having a good conscience towards God."

Does it say that??...NO IT DOES NOT.

This is another example of your inability to use BASIC, and I mean BASIC reasoning and logic. By the way, did you type your last post "with your hands" without using your hands? :rolleyes: Did you type your last post "with your hands" by doing it inwardly? :rolleyes:

What I said is perfectly consistent. After the eunuch was preached Jesus, he was baptized into Christ, and he went on his way rejoicing. Now, give me one good reason why he would NOT have a good conscience towards God.

I have evidence to show that he did have a good conscience towards God - he obeyed the gospel that leads to salvation, and he went on his way rejoicing! Where's your evidence to show that he WOULDN'T have a good conscience towards God?

c.moore
July 12th, 2002, 01:38 AM
The fact of the matter is when these same apostles went out and preached to the sinners in the first recorded gospel sermon, the believers were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, which uses water (Acts 10:47-48). You have yet to address this simple fact.



Yes they used water to show what happen in the spiritual baptism.

kevin you keep putting the tree before the seed which in this case the spiritual baptism.

Now I see you take the name of Jesus Christ and throw the name in the water.
before you add water baptism where baptism is mention , now you add water where Jesus christ name is or the name of the LOrd.:confused:


Quote by kevin

Here it is again... try reading, comprehending, and actually addressing it this time instead of pretending like I've never addressed this issue:

As I've pointed out several times, baptism "in the name of the Lord" uses water, which is proven in Acts 10:47-48. Now, the people in Acts 2:38 were batpized "in the name of Jesus Christ". Compare the two:
· Baptism in the "name of the Lord"
· Baptism in the "name of Jesus Christ"



Quote c.moore
In Acts 10 was baptized first by the Holy Spirit .
Ac:10:47: Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Of course when you get spiritual baptized it`s because you are baptized into Jesus , and Jesus come into you and Jesus name is above all name and he get the honor , and Jesus get the glory and the pleasure of us being spiritual baptized in the name of the Lord.
we are for sure not baptized int he name of the devil, and the devil doesn`t baptize us.
To be truthful Jesus command us to be baptised in all three names.M't:28:18: And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
M't:28:19: Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

You said Kevin:Baptism in the "name of the Lord"
· Baptism in the "name of Jesus Christ"

because of the names used gives you the right to interpretate this is all about visible water baptism is this correct ?:confused:


Is not Jesus Christ our Lord? YES HE IS. Both baptisms are in the name of the same person: Jesus Christ, our Lord. And since Acts 10:47-48 shows that baptism in the name of the Lord is done with water, then the baptism spoken of in Acts 2:38 uses water also, for they are the same baptism in the same name of the same person!!! There's ONE baptism, and it's done the SAME way.




I guess this answers my question you do add water because of the names.:rolleyes:



Yes, I know that the blood of Jesus covers our sins.


Indeed. Everybody stop what you are doing and pay attention... Kevin and I agree on something!


But it's ONLY going to benefit those who are IN Christ. It is through BAPTISM that we are IN Christ, at which point our sins are forgiven because of His blood. We get baptized so we can be in Christ and have our sins for forgiven through His blood, that's why I've been saying that baptism is FOR the remission of sins.


OOOOHHHHHHHH right kevin.

you are saying that we first have to get water baptized even before the blood of Jesus can be activated, and that we qualify to be forgiven?


You said Kevin
The water doesn't cover our sins, and I've said this SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO many times so you can stop rambling about water not forgiving our sins WHEN I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT IT DID!!! You're just making an assumption that because we say baptism involves waterwhich it does, that it actually forgives sins, which we've never claimed! :confused:

I am confussed here,or is this contridiction?




The baptism you are speaking of, is NOT done by man, it is done by God. It falls from the sky! The baptism you are defending does not use water


AMEN!

[QUOTE]Get this through your head - it is YOUR opinion that I'm stuck on milk and not ready for the meat. It is MY opinion that you are wrong. You can say something like "well, I have the word of God and it says you're wrong"... but I have the word of God also, and I think YOU are wrong. We will find out what God thinks for sure at judgement... you know... [We will find out what God thinks for sure at judgement... you know... /QUOTE] We will find out what God thinks for sure at judgement... you know...

I hope you also know that when the truth hits you in the face , you realize that to to late, and you will lose some of your rewards, and God will not be so pleased with you Kevin when we are judge for our works praise God, because for God that would be dummm work.

Kevin I know you are saved , and you are my brother even though I don`t agree in alot of thing you believe, but please to for the golden rewards, not the ones that will burn when you are tested maybe with your paper rewards or wood rewards of your works.
Take all you can , and let please our Daddy Jesus Christ together,let us learn his will the way God wants not our own will and self pride and understanding, alway ready to be changed day by day.
You have heard the truth over, and over, the choice is in your hands, I want repeat the truth to you any more you have to make the change yourself Kevin.
See you in Heaven,just don`t deny Jesus as your Lord and savior.

Lord, I did my part of works show Kevin the truth , and Lord it`s up to you Lord Jesus to open kevin eyes.

Let God blesss you and your family.

peace shalone

drbrumley
July 12th, 2002, 03:15 AM
When God separated Israel from other peoples so they would become His chosen people, He told them they must distinguish between clean and unclean animals. The distinction of unclean animals would separate Israel from the other nations.

But I have said to you, “You shall inherit their land, and I will give it to you to possess, a land flowing with milk and honey.” I am the LORD your God, who has separated you from the peoples. You shall therefore distinguish between clean animals and unclean, between unclean birds and clean, and you shall not make yourselves abominable by beast or by bird, or by any kind of living thing that creeps on the ground, which I have separated from you as unclean. And you shall be holy to Me, for I the LORD am holy, and have separated you from the peoples, that you should be Mine (Lev 20:24-26).

After Paul was saved, God gave Peter a vision (Acts 10:9-17). Peter’s vision showed there were no more clean and unclean animals for Israel. By this vision, God showed Peter that Israel was no longer His chosen people. However, He did not show Peter the new dispensation of the mystery that He would reveal to Paul. He also did not show Peter that there would be a new method of salvation. That’s why Peter preached the same message Christ had given him from the beginning, the circumcision gospel.

Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him. The word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ; He is Lord of all; that word you know, which was proclaimed throughout all Judea, and began from Galilee after the baptism which John preached” (Acts 10:34-37).

This was the gospel of faith-works and endurance for salvation which Christ taught while on earth (Mat 24:13,14; John 15:1-8). When we look at chapters 9-11 of Acts, the Holy Spirit shows us that water baptism was no longer necessary for salvation in this dispensation. Because God started the body of Christ with Paul’s conversion, the Holy Spirit showed us His new plan. How did He show this new plan? He did it in a marvelous way. Peter was sent to a Gentile’s house. He was told to go there without doubting. This was a strange command for Peter to receive, but he did as God told him. He went to the house of Cornelius and preached the gospel of the circumcision to them. While Peter was still preaching, before he commanded them to be baptized as he had earlier (Acts 2:38), the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word (Acts 10:44,45).

The Holy Spirit caused some amazing things by this event. The Holy Spirit’s work here would convince the circumcision believers that salvation was now open to the Gentiles. Wow! God had opened the door of salvation to the Gentiles, and we can see from the accounts of Paul’s conversion, that he was the one who would be sent to the Gentiles.

Acts 9: 15,16 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. 16 For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name’s sake.”

Acts 22:17-21 Now it happened, when I returned to Jerusalem and was praying in the temple, that I was in a trance 18 and saw Him saying to me, “Make haste and get out of Jerusalem quickly, for they will not receive your testimony concerning Me.” 19 So I said, “Lord, they know that in every synagogue I imprisoned and beat those who believe on You. 20 And when the blood of Your martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by consenting to his death, and guarding the clothes of those who were killing him.” 21 Then He said to me, “Depart, for I will send you far from here to the Gentiles.”

Returning to Peter’s mission to Cornelius, we see that for the first time, the two baptisms of Acts 2:38 were reversed. Water baptism was performed after Holy Spirit baptism. Now, the Holy Spirit baptism was the one necessary for salvation. Water baptism became secondary for the first time.

We’re not even sure that God wanted these new Christians water baptized. Peter did a number of things here for the simple reason that the Lord had previously commanded them. Now, why did these changes take place? Because Paul was converted, given a new stewardship called the dispensation of the mystery, and a new gospel, the uncircumcision gospel which was also called the gospel of the grace of God.

Gal 2:7,8 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision had been committed to me, as the gospel of the circumcision was to Peter 8 (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles).

Acts 20:24 But none of these things move me; nor do I count my life dear to myself, so that I may finish my race with joy, and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God.

During Paul’s first two missionary journeys, we find that he baptized at least Crispus, Gaius, Stephanus’ household, Lydia and her household, and the jailor and his household. Why did he baptize these people? We don’t know for sure. But it seems that because Ananias had commanded him to be baptized, he carried on the practice. So, even in the dispensation of grace there were two baptisms for a while.

Soon it was revealed to Paul that water baptism was not part of his commission (1 Cor. 1:17). After that, he no longer baptized. But we must remember that water baptism was definitely an integral part of the circumcision apostles’ commission (Mat. 28:18-20; Mk. 16:15-18). When Paul wrote he was not sent to baptize, he also was inspired to write, “By one Spirit we were all baptized into one body” (1 Cor. 12:13). Further, in Col 2:11,12 we see that as physical circumcision gave way to spiritual, “made without hands,” water baptism gave way to spiritual baptism, “through the faith of the operation of God.” Why did water baptism give way to spiritual baptism? It was because God set Israel aside in Acts 7 when Christ stood in judgment at the stoning of Stephen (Rom. 11:11,25; Acts 28:28; Isa. 3:13).

After Israel had been set aside, part of Paul’s ministry was to show Israel this fact. God pronounced for the final time, through Paul, that Israel had been set aside (Acts 28:28). This happened when Paul made his inspired judicial decree quoting Isaiah 6:9,10. The baptisms imposed on Israel were set aside until God would be dealing with Israel again in the tribulation. For instance, water baptism will be necessary for salvation again when Peter’s epistles will be in God’s program for the tribulation period (1 Pet. 3:20,21).

Now there is one baptism. After his Acts 28:28 decree, Paul was inspired to write Ephesians. In it he wrote Eph 4:4,5, “There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism.” One baptism? If there is only one baptism, which one is it? Is it water or Holy Spirit? It is Holy Spirit! Why? Because God has suspended the use of water baptism. It has been done away with because God is through with Israel for the time being. Now there is only one program. So, today there is one baptism by which we, who have trusted in Christ, are baptized into the body of Christ. That baptism identifies us with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection (Rom. 6:3-8). Water baptism has been set aside because God has set aside Israel.

Repost of Bob Hill's thesis on Baptism.

Which has yet to be addressed.

Evangelion
July 12th, 2002, 05:08 AM
drbrumley -


Soon it was revealed to Paul that water baptism was not part of his commission (1 Cor. 1:17).

ROTFL. How do you intend to prove that this was "revealed to Paul"?


After that, he no longer baptized.

And how do you intend to prove this?

:rolleyes:

JustAChristian
July 12th, 2002, 07:50 AM
Naaman was a very successful man. He was commander of the Syrian army, a great and honorable man in the eyes of his king, a victorious general, and a mighty man of valor. But, he had a terrible disease: leprosy. Please read 2 Kings 5:1-14 concerning Naaman.

Naaman learned from a young Israelite slave girl that there was a prophet in Israel who could heal him of his leprosy. As we read the account of how Naaman sought a cure for his leprosy, we may learn some valuable lessons about our own need for cleansing from an even greater malady than leprosy, that is sin.

Naaman thought his healing could be purchased. When the King of Syria granted him permission to go to Israel, Naaman "took with him ten talents of silver, six thousand shekels of gold, and ten changes of clothing" (2 Kings 5:5). Apparently he thought he could pay someone in Israel to heal him.

Like Naaman, we cannot purchase our cleansing from sin. However, a price must be paid for our redemption, but not with "corruptible things, like silver or gold” (1 Peter 1:18). Christ paid the price for our redemption on the cross. The Apostle Peter states that Christians have been redeemed “with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" (1 Peter 1:19).

Naaman had an idea about how he thought his healing would take place. He said to himself, “He will surely come out to me, and stand and call on the name of the LORD his God, and wave his hand over the place, and heal the leprosy" (2 Kings 5:11). When the servant of Elisha the prophet told him to go and wash in the Jordan seven times, and his flesh would be restored and he would be clean (v. 10), he became furious. His preconceived ideas concerning his healing were wrong.

When it comes to our own cleansing from sin, we must also seek God’’s instructions instead of what we might think would work. We must not approach God’s word seeking to justify our current beliefs; rather, we must seek to know God’’s will through His word, and believe His word.

Naaman tried to substitute his own terms of obedience instead of the Lord’s. He did not want to wash in the Jordan River. He asked, "Are not the Abanah and the Pharpar, the rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? Could I not wash in them and be clean?" So he turned and went away in a rage" (2 Kings 5:12 NKJV). We must never try to substitute our own doctrines in the place of the teaching of God’’s word. Only through our obedience to His commands may we ever have the blessings attached to them.

Finally, Naaman humbled himself and obeyed the Lord’s instructions. Naaman could see no logical connection between dipping in the Jordan River and being cured of his leprosy, but he obeyed. Obedience brought its reward: Naaman was healed.
A penitent believer in Christ may not see the logical connection between being baptized (immersed) in water and having his sins washed away (Acts 2:38; 22:16). Certainly, as in the case of Naaman, it is not the water that saves. It is God who saves us, when we obey Him. Obedience has its reward: the cleansing of our sins.

JustAChristian

agape
July 12th, 2002, 08:40 AM
Originally posted by Kevin
Agape,
You're short term memory crisis strikes again.LOL...it's not a memory problem, it's not listening to your made up stories of the bible which do not agree with the truth of God's Word.

First of all there is only one water baptism which came from John (Past)... and there IS..NOW...Spirit baptism which comes from Christ (Present).

Regarding Acts 19

In order to understand Acts 19, we need to read the previous verses in chapter 18.

Acts 18-23-28;
And after he [Paul] had spent some time [there], he departed, and went over [all] the country of Galatia and Phrygia in order, strengthening all the disciples.

Paul came to Ephesus and then left Aquila and Priscilla to go to Caesarea to go to his home base in Antioch. He spent some time there, departed and went over all the country of Galatia and Phrygia in order to build strength in the faithful disciples.

(24) And a Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, [and] mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.

(25) This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.

A certain Jew named Apollos was an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures and taught the things of concerning the Lord, knowing ONLY THE BAPTISM OF JOHN. A person can go only as far as they have been taught. He had not learned the greatness of the new birth and the power of the holy spirit.

(26) And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto [them], and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.

He spoke boldly in the synagogues of what he knew and Aquila and Priscilla heard him and expounded to him the way of God more perfectly, exactly or precisely. They led Apollos into the fullness of the manifestations of holy spirit, teaching him how to operate and enjoy all that was available to him spiritually.

(27) And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

[b]Apollos, because he was meek, responded to the instruction given from Aquila and Priscilla. He had now "believed through grace" himself and could more adequately minister to God's people.

(28) For he mightily convinced the Jews, [and that] publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.

[b]Apollos mightily convinced the Jews/Judeans and successfully refuted them as he expounded unto them the way of God more perfectly.

Now Acts 19, verse 1:

And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples.

These "certain disciples" were those who had disciplined themselves according to what Apollos had previously taught them. They had not yet been fully instructed.

Acts 19:2-5:
He said unto them. Have ye received [lambano - received into manifestation] the Holy Ghost [Spirit] since ye believed [upon believing?] And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost [holy spirit in manifestation].

And he said unto them. Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto Johns baptism.

Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

When they [having] heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Apollos only took them as far as John's baptism in water and was not able then to teach them the fullness of all that Christ had accomplished for them and in them through his death and resurrection because he had not yet been fully instructed by Aquila and Priscilla at that time. They were then baptized INTO the name of the Lord Jesus, which means they were baptized with the true baptism of holy spirit. Proof of this is shown in the following verse.

Acts 19:6:
And [But] when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost [holy spirit in manifestation] came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Paul laid his hands on them and prayed that they should manifest the greatness of the gift of holy spirit which they were baptize with and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.

There was no re-baptizing them in water. Paul taught them "BUT ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost," the baptism that should come after John. Acts 19:4; "Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus."

These Ephesians believed through grace, were born again and spoke in tongues.

The baptism in Romans 6:1-4 is HOLY SPIRIT BAPTISM...NOT WATER.

The baptism in Acts 10:47 and 48 is HOLY SPIRIT BAPTISM...NOT WATER. This is the first record in the Book of Acts to record that the uncircumcised, Gentile/nation were baptized with holy spirit and because of this they manifested this gift by speaking in tongues.

The baptism in Acts 2:38 is HOLY SPIRIT BAPTISM...NOT WATER..."and ye shall receive [lambano - receive into manifestation] the GIFT OF THE HOLY GHOST."

The baptism in Acts 19:1-7 is HOLY SPIRIT BAPTISM...NOT WATER...which did occur but only due to the lack of knowledge on Apollos' part which is clearly explained and which was corrected by the Apostle Paul who led them to the true baptism in the holy spirit.

quote:

Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Except a man be BORN OF THE SPIRIT, HE "CANNOT ENTER" INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD. "YE MUST BE BORN OF THE SPIRIT."


Wrong. The bible says that man must be born of WATER and the Spirit, not just of the Spirit. And this is exactly what was practiced by being baptized in the name of the Lord (Acts 2:38 - Acts 10:47-48). Well, the scriptures prove you "wrong" on all accounts. Did you do a thorough study of John 3:1-7?? Or did you just repeat what you were taught by those who hold onto man-made doctrine and beliefs?

John 3:5 is a figure of speech called "hendiadys" and means "Two words used, but one thing meant." Two words employed, but one thing, or idea, intended. One of the two words expresses the thing, and the other (of synonymous, or even different, signification, not a second thing or idea) intensifies it by being changed (if a noun) into an adjective of the superlative degree, which is, by this means, made especially emphatic.

John 3:5--This is literally, "Except a man shall have been born begotten of water and spirit." There is no article to either of the two nouns.

That only one thing is meant by the two words is clear from verses 6 and 8, where only the Spirit (the one) is mentioned.

The Lord is speaking to Nicodemus of "earthly things" (see verse 12). And as "a master in Israel," he knew (or ought to have known) perfectly well the prophecy of Ezekiel 36:25-27 concerning the kingdom (not the Church). Concerning Israel, in the day of their restoration to their own land, Jehovah had declared: "Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean....And I will put my spirit within you," etc.

The cleansing of that day is not be with literal water, as in the ceremonial cleansings of the Law, but with the Spirit of God.

Hence only one thing is meant:--"Except a man be begotten of water, yes--and spiritual water too, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." The spiritual water stands, by another figure of speech (Metonymy), for the Holy Spirit...as is clear from John 7:38,39: "water--(But this space he of the Spirit, which they that believe on Him should receive...)."

Hence there is no reference here to ceremonial or ecclesiastical water--but to that baptism of the Spirit, which is the one indispensable condition into the kingdom of God: a moral sphere, which includes and embraces the Church of God, here and now, as well as the future kingdom foretold by God through the prophets.
[i](Figures of Speech Used in the Bible by Bullinger, pp. 657, 664)

Apollos
July 12th, 2002, 10:44 AM
Dr.B –

Why did you not answer the questions I requested from your statement of faith?
Why did you not tell us WHAT it involves for man to “ACCEPT” Jesus ???

My guess is that you did not want to take the time to “explain away” why “accepting” Jesus “looks” like it involves “works”, but (in your view) it really isn’t “works”. Well?

Instead, we got a “cut&paste” from Bob Hill. Normally I do not respond to c&p’s but I will extract a few points.

However, He did not show Peter the new dispensation of the mystery that He would reveal to Paul. He also did not show Peter that there would be a new method of salvation. That’s why Peter preached the same message Christ had given him from the beginning, the circumcision gospel. Am I the only one here that can see how the makes the HS look like an incompetent bag of gas? Jesus sent the HS to guide the apostles into all the truth. These dispy thoughts would have us believe that the HS had the apostles confused, fragmented, and uncoordinated in function and purpose. This is the human thought process that it takes to believe this faction of dispensationalism.

Please continue to follow with me:

-The HS reveals to Peter (not Paul) in a vision (Acts 10) THREE times “what God has cleansed – make not common”.
-The HS tells Peter to go with Gentiles to Caesarea – “nothing doubting”.
-The HS falls on the Gentiles to confirm they (the Gentiles) are also to receive “repentance unto life” as the Jews have.
-The HS directs Peter to preach to Cornelius the D/B/&R of Christ.
-The HS directs Peter to command baptism “in the name” of Christ.

The HS did all of this and directed Peter into all of this; YET we are to accept your thoughts that the HS had another “method” of salvation that He was “hiding in the back”, to be revealed later. You saying basically that everything the HS & Peter did was WRONG. Now WHY would you do this?

I believe you do this so you can develop your erroneous beliefs about “faith only” and other erroneous dispy beliefs. This, in and of itself, is totally unbelievable !!! Get you head on straight !!

When we look at chapters 9-11 of Acts, the Holy Spirit shows us that water baptism was no longer necessary for salvation in this dispensation.Baloney – the HS shows no such thing!! The church, Peter, and Paul continued to practice WATER BAPTISM past the time of the end of the books of Acts. This can be seen in Paul’s “Prison Epistles” and Titus! To say that Paul no longer baptized in water is to not only contradict both his preaching & teaching throughout, but it also would have us believe that Paul ALSO practiced error/confusion for many years until YOU claim he stopped! Once again, you have the HS doing a mighty LOUSY job in guiding the apostles and prophets in the truth!!

Because God started the body of Christ with Paul’s conversion…More baloney!! The body is the church, and the church is the body – Col 1:18, Eph. 1:22,23. The body of Christ began in Acts 2:41 when God began to add believers to “the saved”. (See Acts 5:11, 7:38, 8:1,3 to see the church/body in existence BEFORE Paul’s time.)

Returning to Peter’s mission to Cornelius, we see that for the first time, the two baptisms of Acts 2:38 were reversed.We do?? In Acts 2 we see the miraculous outpouring of the HS the Jews, the word (d/b/r) is preached, water baptism in the name of Christ, and people are saved.
In Acts 10 we see the miraculous outpouring of the HS on the Gentiles, the word (d/b/r) is preached, water baptism in the name of Christ, and people are saved.

The only difference I see in these two occasions is that the Jews got to preach both times. I hardily suggest a thorough reading of not just Acts 10, but also chapter ELEVEN to get the complete order of the events!!

We’re not even sure that God wanted these new Christians water baptized. Peter did a number of things here for the simple reason that the Lord had previously commanded them.Amazing! Once again the HS could not guide Peter into the truth. He must have roamed around aimlessly for YEARS without knowing “the plan”. But the plan was for ALL nations to be water baptized into Christ! The HS and Peter had it right!! (You are not “sure” because your doctrine conflicts with truth!)

During Paul’s first two missionary journeys, we find that he baptized at least Crispus, Gaius, Stephanus’ household, Lydia and her household, and the jailor and his household. Why did he baptize these people? We don’t know for sure.
Still unsure about your doctrine – I can certainly see why!!! If my doctrine had, not only the HS and Peter, but Paul also, going around teaching & practicing things that were wrong or could not be explained, I think I would “punt” !!!

I absolutely “marvel” that you attempt to believe Paul, who was under the divine guidance of the HS, went around for YEARS teaching and practicing WATER BAPTISM, and you are not sure as to why. Astounding! When does your group put on the “Dog & Pony” show to go with this ??????

Soon it was revealed to Paul that water baptism was not part of his commission (1 Cor. 1:17).Pauls teaching and practice both BEFORE this time of writing 1 Corinthians and AFTER show that you mis-apply and mis-understand the passage (1:17) in order to keep your dispy doctrine. In this verse Paul is merely stating that his primary purpose was not to (water) baptize, but to preach. Paul knew others could do the dunking!!

You truly disappoint me Dr.B !!!

Kevin
July 12th, 2002, 01:03 PM
c.moore,


[QUOTE by kevin]The fact of the matter is when these same apostles went out and preached to the sinners in the first recorded gospel sermon, the believers were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, which uses water (Acts 10:47-48). You have yet to address this simple fact.



Yes they used water to show what happen in the spiritual baptism.

No, what happened in the HS baptism is that the Gentiles had the ability to speak in tounges. Again, this same thing (miraculous ablilities) happended to the people in Numbers 11:25, and it didn't put them into Christ, and nor did the falling of the HS put the Gentiles into Christ. The falling of the HS is not baptism of the Lord, which happened after the Spirit fell on them, and certainly doesn't represtent what the falling of the HS does.

Again, how could the falling of the HS be the baptism spoken of in the Great Commission? The baptism commanded in the Great Commission was commanded that MAN should do it, not God. Man can perfrom water baptism in the name of the Lord, and they did. When the HS falls on somebody,man isn't doing that, God is!


Now I see you take the name of Jesus Christ and throw the name in the water.
before you add water baptism where baptism is mention , now you add water where Jesus christ name is or the name of the LOrd.

It's hard to debate a person that doesn't listen to what I say. Can you show me anywhere in this ENTIRE baptism thead that I said people needed to be baptized "in the name of water"? Anywhere? I'll say it again, and this time pay close attention. I'm saying that baptism in the name of the Lord USES or INVOLVES water, that does NOT change the name in which the baptism is performed.

There was a rock band in the 1980's an 1990's called Def Lepard. They used electric guitars. Now, just because the band Def Lepard used electric guitars, did their band name change to "electric guitars"?! NO! So, just because baptim in the name of the Lord uses water, does not chang the baptism to "in the name of water". :rolleyes:

Here, I'll break it down verse by verse!:

Acts 10:47-48
47) Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have recieved the Holy Spirit just as we have?

What is the element that Peter mentions that is included in baptism? Can anyone forbid __________ that these should not be _________. It's WATER. Now, the question is, what baptism is Peter referring to? Next verse:

48) And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.

Peter was referring to baptism "in the name of the Lord", which uses water, just as HE SAID. Yet, even though Peter said it uses water, he still called it baptism in the name of the Lord, not baptism in the name of water!!


Quote c.moore
In Acts 10 was baptized first by the Holy Spirit .
Ac:10:47: Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Yeah, and what's your point? As I've said, the people in Numbers 11:25 also had the HS fall upon them. Did that put them into Christ? Of course not, and neither did it for the Gentiles, which is why Peter commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord (for he was commanded to baptize people in this manner in the Great Commission), because that's what put's them into Christ, not the falling of the HS!


OOOOHHHHHHHH right kevin.

you are saying that we first have to get water baptized even before the blood of Jesus can be activated, and that we qualify to be forgiven?

I'm saying that we need to be baptized FOR the remission of sins (Acts 2:38), which is done by the blood of Jesus. He who has died has been freed from sin (Romans 6:7). How can we die with Christ without being baptized into His death? We become in Christ through baptism (Gal. 3:27). Are you suggesting that people who are not in Christ have their sins forgiven and will go to heaven?

Christ's blood indeed covers all sins, and is available to those who OBEY the gospel and become in Christ. The Bible is quite clear that baptism is the means that God has chosen that puts us in Christ (Gal. 3:27).


The water doesn't cover our sins, and I've said this SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO many times so you can stop rambling about water not forgiving our sins WHEN I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT IT DID!!! You're just making an assumption that because we say baptism involves waterwhich it does, that it actually forgives sins, which we've never claimed!

I am confussed here,or is this contridiction?

I'll try to make it more clear. The baptism in the name of the Lord uses water. I have always claimed this. However, while baptism in the name of the Lord uses water, I have never claimed that it is the water which actually cleanses our sins, it is the blood of Jesus (see above). So, I was saying that you are making an assumption that we believe water cleanses our sin, just because we believe water is used in the name of the Lord. In other words, just because we believe baptism in the name of the Lord uses water (which it does), does not mean that we believe that the water itself forgives sin. Is that better?


The baptism you are speaking of, is NOT done by man, it is done by God. It falls from the sky! The baptism you are defending does not use water
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




AMEN!

Don't you realize that the baptism spoken of in the Great Commission (the ONE baptism) was commanded for MAN to do it? Who did Jesus command to go out into the world and preach and baptize? MAN, not GOD! And you just agreed that baptism that you are speaking of (HS baptism) is not done by man, and therefore is NOT the baptism mentioned in the Great Commission (the ONE baptism)! Thanks for helping to prove my point.


See you in Heaven,just don`t deny Jesus as your Lord and savior.

I hope to see you in Heaven, c.moore (sincerely). And no, I certainly have no intention of denying the only One who can save me.

Kevin
July 12th, 2002, 03:27 PM
Agape,


Regarding Acts 19

In order to understand Acts 19, we need to read the previous verses in chapter 18.

Acts 18-23-28;
And after he [Paul] had spent some time [there], he departed, and went over [all] the country of Galatia and Phrygia in order, strengthening all the disciples.

Paul came to Ephesus and then left Aquila and Priscilla to go to Caesarea to go to his home base in Antioch. He spent some time there, departed and went over all the country of Galatia and Phrygia in order to build strength in the faithful disciples.

(24) And a Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, [and] mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.

(25) This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.

A certain Jew named Apollos was an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures and taught the things of concerning the Lord, knowing ONLY THE BAPTISM OF JOHN. A person can go only as far as they have been taught. He had not learned the greatness of the new birth and the power of the holy spirit.

(26) And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto [them], and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.

He spoke boldly in the synagogues of what he knew and Aquila and Priscilla heard him and expounded to him the way of God more perfectly, exactly or precisely. They led Apollos into the fullness of the manifestations of holy spirit, teaching him how to operate and enjoy all that was available to him spiritually.

(27) And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

Apollos, because he was meek, responded to the instruction given from Aquila and Priscilla. He had now "believed through grace" himself and could more adequately minister to God's people.

(28) For he mightily convinced the Jews, [and that] publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.

Apollos mightily convinced the Jews/Judeans and successfully refuted them as he expounded unto them the way of God more perfectly.

Now Acts 19, verse 1:

And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples.

These "certain disciples" were those who had disciplined themselves according to what Apollos had previously taught them. They had not yet been fully instructed.

Acts 19:2-5:
He said unto them. Have ye received [lambano - received into manifestation] the Holy Ghost [Spirit] since ye believed [upon believing?] And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost [holy spirit in manifestation].

And he said unto them. Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto Johns baptism.

Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

When they [having] heard this, they were baptized in [into] the name of the Lord Jesus.

But what you fail to realize is that being baptized in the name of the Lord involves water!

Acts 10:47-48
47) Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have recieved the Holy Spirit just as we have?

What is the element that Peter mentions that is included in baptism? Can anyone forbid __________ that these should not be _________. It's WATER. Now, the question is, what baptism is Peter referring to? Next verse:

48) And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.

Peter was referring to baptism "in the name of the Lord", which uses water, just as HE SAID.


Paul laid his hands on them and prayed that they should manifest the greatness of the gift of holy spirit which they were baptize with and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.

The people in Numbers 11:25 also had the HS fall upon them, giving them the ability to prophecy! The same spirit did the same thing for both parties - it gave them power. The receiving of the HS in Numbers 11:25 didn't put them into Christ (which was impossible then) any more than when the disciples of John recieved the HS. What put them into Christ was being baptized in the name of the Lord, which was done before Paul laid hands on them. Praying to God and laying upon hands is NOT baptism in the name of the Lord. We have a clear illustration of how people are batized in the name of the Lord in Acts 10:47-48 - WATER.


The baptism in Romans 6:1-4 is HOLY SPIRIT BAPTISM...NOT WATER.

Wrong. I've already addressed this in my other post to you. Try addressing the points instead of chanting your broken record.


Wrong. The bible says that man must be born of WATER and the Spirit, not just of the Spirit. And this is exactly what was practiced by being baptized in the name of the Lord (Acts 2:38 - Acts 10:47-48).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, the scriptures prove you "wrong" on all accounts.

No they don't, they support me.


Did you do a thorough study of John 3:1-7?? Or did you just repeat what you were taught by those who hold onto man-made doctrine and beliefs?

It doesn't take a Bible scholar to realize that Jesus is exaplaining the concept that one must be reborn in order to enter the kingdom of heaven. :rolleyes: Jesus answers this question by saying that one needs to be born of water and the spirit to be reborn, which is exactly what was practiced in the NT (Acts 10:47-48, Acts 2:38).


John 3:5--This is literally, "Except a man shall have been born begotten of water and spirit." There is no article to either of the two nouns.

That only one thing is meant by the two words is clear from verses 6 and 8, where only the Spirit (the one) is mentioned.

This has no bearing on the fact that baptism in the name of the Lord uses water. Hebrews 10:22 also shows the use of water.


The cleansing of that day is not be with literal water, as in the ceremonial cleansings of the Law, but with the Spirit of God.

Acts 10:47-48 and Heb. 10:22 disagrees.

Kevin
July 12th, 2002, 03:32 PM
Agape,

I'm still wondering if you type your posts "with the hands" without using your hands.

JustAChristian
July 12th, 2002, 03:47 PM
To the thread,

I wanted you to know that I have to be away from the thread for a week or so. I have to travel to Tennessee for a granddaughter's surgery. Hope you all fair well during the coming week and achieve some progress in the Lord in this discussion.

In Christ,
JustAChristian

Kevin
July 12th, 2002, 04:59 PM
JustAChristian,


I wanted you to know that I have to be away from the thread for a week or so. I have to travel to Tennessee for a granddaughter's surgery. Hope you all fair well during the coming week and achieve some progress in the Lord in this discussion.

Well, take care of yourself, I hope you have a safe trip. Also, I hope everything turns out for the best with your granddaughter's surgery!

c.moore
July 13th, 2002, 02:48 AM
Originally posted by agape
Kevin,

Romans 6:1-6 and following are all referring to is "SPIRIT BAPTISM" NOT WATER, which is the OLD BAPTISM OF JOHN.

Acts 1:5:
For John truly baptized with water; BUT YE SHALL BE BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST not many days hence.

Jesus gave this truth after he died for our sins, was buried and raised from the dead. These words were part of the last words he spoke before ascending to his Father.

Acts 1:2-9:
Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

(3) To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

(4) And, being assembled together with [them], commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, [saith he], ye have heard of me.

(5) For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

(6) When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

(7) And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

(8) But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

(9) And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

His final command to them was; "BUT YE SHALL BE BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT." ...NOT WATER.

Kevin, you are teaching a false doctrine. You are defying the words of Christ.

Jesus also said to Nicodemus:

John 3:5-7:
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Except a man be BORN OF THE SPIRIT, HE "CANNOT ENTER" INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD. "YE MUST BE BORN OF THE SPIRIT."

Never once, in the scriptures, will you find "ye must be water baptized to enter into the Kingdom of God." There is NO salvation or eternal life received with H20, never was and never will be. "SPIRIT BAPTISM" is the ONE and ONLY ONE TRUE BAPTISM.

Now can the Word of God, TRUTH, make it MORE PLAIN? I think not. :)

Please Note:

(I hope everyone can see how Kevin writes his own bible.

One example out of numerous ones, Kevin states: "AFTER he was baptized, he went on his way, rejoicing... having a good conscience towards God."

Note how he ties in what is written in Peter, with what's written concerning the eunuch. He ADDS HIS OWN WORDS to "after he was baptized he went on his way rejoicing...WORDS ADDED...> "having a good conscience towards God."

Does it say that??...NO IT DOES NOT. He does this all the time concerning different subjects within God's Word.

Here he does it to try to convince others that the eunuch was not baptized with the holy spirit, but with water only. The eunuch, within the context, went away rejoicing because Philip expounded the scriptures to the eunuch and preached Christ to him. Philip, who was already baptized himself with the holy spirit and born again, led the eunuch, who believed what Philip taught concerning Christ, into being baptized according to what Jesus Christ taught..."BUT YE SHALL BE BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST." This is the true reason why the eunuch could walk away "rejoicing." He was born of the Spirit and he had entrance into the Kingdom of God.

Now that's the truth of God's Word.

So sneaky of you Kevin...tsk, tsk. :rolleyes:




Agape

I quoted the same verse , and even the word you said are the same as mine.

Did you copy one of my post or the Holy Spirit spoke to you the same he spoke to me???:confused:

God bless you:up:

Evangelion
July 13th, 2002, 03:01 AM
Well, we all know what AVmetro would say... :rolleyes:

c.moore
July 13th, 2002, 03:12 AM
Quote Kevin
I hope to see you in Heaven, c.moore (sincerely). And no, I certainly have no intention of denying the only One who can save me.

Quote c.moore
I agree with you on that , and I still love you brother Kevin.

let God bless you

agape
July 13th, 2002, 03:24 AM
Originally posted by c.moore
Agape

I quoted the same verse , and even the word you said are the same as mine.

Did you copy one of my post or the Holy Spirit spoke to you the same he spoke to me?What same verse? I used a number of verses. Why would I need to copy what you posted? The words I used are not the same as yours. I stated it in my own way from my working the Word of God. I don't copy anything posted here. If I did, I would specifically state so. :)

However, it's nice to know that we both agree that Spirit Baptism is the one and only true baptism that gives us the entranceway into the kingdom of God. :up:

c.moore
July 13th, 2002, 05:13 AM
Quote by agape
However, it's nice to know that we both agree that Spirit Baptism is the one and only true baptism that gives us the entranceway into the kingdom of God.


__________________

Quote c.moore
I pray that other would see and understand the gospel as well.
the thing with Kevin Agape is that he has more his faith on the visible things, and we are on the invisible things which the flesh can`t understand.
The belief the water baptism people have is putting the tree before any seed is planted, and the tree has to be fully grown to be accepted as the tree, get the point Agape.
Every where in the bible mention baptism is water baptism to them to hold thier own doctrine up, they must add it in thier interpretations.
What a shame,but that thier opinion.


God bless you

agape
July 13th, 2002, 06:11 AM
Originally posted by Kevin
Agape,
But what you fail to realize is that being baptized in the name of the Lord involves water!LOL...only in the new bible you are writing.

Acts 10:47-48
Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have recieved the Holy Spirit just as we have?Oh please Kevin, I've been there, already gave my explanation explaining that Peter was talking about "spiritual water"...not water baptism. Please find and read.

They were baptized with the holy spirit and began to speak with tongues. You need to read both chapter 10 and 11 to understand more fully...maybe it will finally sink into your head that John baptized with water...BUT...BUT ..."BUT YE SHALL BE BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST..."

The people in Numbers 11:25 also had the HS fall upon them, giving them the ability to prophecy! The same spirit did the same thing for both parties - it gave them power.So what is your point? In the OT the God allowed His spirit to be upon certain people so that God could give them the revelation they needed to know, which they could not know by their five senses. They prophesied what God told them. Numbers 11:25 has nothing to do with "baptism" at all...except in your new writing of the bible. :rolleyes:

What put them into Christ was being baptized in the name of the Lord, which was done before Paul laid hands on them. Praying to God and laying upon hands is NOT baptism in the name of the Lord.What put them INTO Christ could only be accomplished by their being baptized with HOLY SPIRIT...NOT WATER. AFTER Paul explained to them that AFTER John came CHRIST JESUS. He preached CHRIST. They HEARD and believed and were baptized with the HOLY SPIRIt...NOT WATER.

THEN Paul laid hands on them and prayed that they would manifest the ALREADY SPIRIT OF GOD IN THEM...THEY SPOKE IN TONGUES AND PROPHESIED.

Plain and simple. :)

In the name of the Lord has nothing to do with whether one is baptized in water or in spirit...LOL. Acts 10:47-48 is proof that they were not water baptized but were baptized in the holy spirit...For JESUS SAID: "...BUT YE SHALL BE BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST NOT MANY DAYS HENCE." They were baptized in the holy spirit and they spoke in tongues which was evidence of their receiving the gift of holy spirit. NO WATER.

It doesn't take a Bible scholar to realize that Jesus is exaplaining the concept that one must be reborn in order to enter the kingdom of heaven. Jesus answers this question by saying that one needs to be born of water and the spirit to be reborn,[/quote]It may not take a bible scholar, but it does take one who honestly does II Timothy 2:15 which does not include writing one's own bible such as you do. You still continue to twist God's Word around to make it say what you only want it to say such as you are now doing with John 3:5-7. Jesus plainly states: John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. Also, in verse 3; "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Jesus makes it very clear that a person needs to be born again of the Spirit. We are not RE-Born of our first birth, of course... nor are we re-born of spiritual birth because we never had a spiritual birth to do it again. We are BORN AGAIN. The "again" means we were born in the flesh the first time (from our mother's womb where there is water)...born of water...and then we are born AGAIN...a new birth...with HOLY SPIRIT. Get it now? Sheesh...

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

John 3:6 THAT WHICH IS BORN OF THE FLESH IS FLESH;....

...and THAT WHICH IS BORN OF THE SPIRIT IS SPIRIT.

We are first born of our parents...the physical, fleshy birth...then we are "born AGAIN" with the HOLY SPIRIT.

Also note what Jesus stated is exactly what was practiced in the NT (Acts 10:47-48, Acts 2:38).

Hebrews 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water [louo = to bathe, wash, of a dead person, washing to cleanse blood out of the wounds]

This has nothing to do with being "baptized in water." Having their bodies washed with pure water indicates ceremonial washing or cleansing. See Exodus 30:18-24.

AVmetro
July 13th, 2002, 06:52 AM
Well, we all know what AVmetro would say...

Say what...:rolleyes:..














__________________________________________________

*~I am Audio Visual Metropolis!~*

Evangelion
July 13th, 2002, 07:13 AM
ROTFL... Perhaps the Holy Spirit is plagiarising! ;) Or maybe "he" is writing all your posts, and c.moore's posts, and Agape's posts! :p

Apollos
July 13th, 2002, 08:16 AM
agape –

Admonishment for your post of yesterday...


Acts 19:6: - And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost [holy spirit in manifestation] came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Paul laid his hands on them and prayed that they should manifest the greatness of the gift of holy spirit which they were baptize with and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. Well-well… you gave us some “math exegesis” there in more than just one place (that is, you made your own ADDITIONS).

Just as Peter and John did in Acts 8:17, so did Paul in Acts 19. By the laying on of the apostles hands the HS was given.
-This is not how it happened in Acts 2.
-It is not how it happened in Acts 10.
-This is NOT HS baptism and there is nothing in Acts 19 to indicate that it is!

But as I read that second paragraph of yours, YOU become confusing (again). It is strange that you claim the Ephesians were baptized with the HS, YET Paul AFTERWARD had to PRAY and LAY his hands on them to “manifest the greatness” of that same HS. Adding that to your own interpretation is what caused you to err!

John 3:5 is a figure of speech called "hendiadys" and means "Two words used, but one thing meant." Two words employed, but one thing, or idea, intended.Actually, this is NOT a hendiadys. I would invite all readers here to look at the definition for themselves. However, IF it were, it would certainly support what I have already said in this thread. That is, it takes TWO agents to accomplish the “new birth” – WATER and SPIRIT. Thus the two agents equal the one water baptism as authorized by Jesus Christ! So it would not have been a problem for me! (Now let’s look at how you attempt to wedge “water” into HS baptism ??)

The spiritual water stands, by another figure of speech (Metonymy), for the Holy Spirit...as is clear from John 7:38,39: "water--(But this space he of the Spirit, which they that believe on Him should receive...)."Ah yes, another slight twist of the words here agape – “spiritual water”?? No, it says rivers of “living water”. Unfortunately for you, this metonymy is not used in John 3 as you would like to so disingenuously suggest to us. There is no context for your error there!

The truly odd thing about your position on John 3:5, is that you think it should read, “Except a man be [b]born of water and water, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” I guess this can only make sense to someone who thinks a confession with the mouth is an internal thought.

One more thing you have taken out of context perpetually - “you shall be baptized with the HS not many days hence..” C’mon agape, establish the context! You stick this into every passage where you want to have the HS baptism “appear”. In Acts 1:5 and also Luke 24:49, the Christ was talking to, and promising the HS to the apostles ONLY. Please stop abusing this passage – follow CONTEXT !!

agape
July 13th, 2002, 10:49 AM
Originally posted by Evangelion
ROTFL... Perhaps the Holy Spirit is plagiarising! ;) Or maybe "he" is writing all your posts, and c.moore's posts, and Agape's posts! :p I just don't know who I am dealing with here. How old are you? I'm thinking somewhere within the range of 7-12 years of age. :D

agape
July 13th, 2002, 11:32 AM
Apollos,

Another one who is "all wet." :D

You are another one of those PI's. Keep up the poor work. :rolleyes:

Everything you stated in your post is totally false and of private interpretation only. You can get wet all you want. As for me, I'll stand with the truth of God's Word.

Acts 1:5: For John truly baptized with water; BUT ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

I suggest you and all the water people get together, pray for God to open the eyes of your understanding and then attempt to do a real genuine study of God's Word II Timothy 2:15-Style. :D

Also, I suggest you learn about figures of speech, cuz you need all the knowledge you can get. You don't know what you are talking about. I also suggest you buy Bullinger's "Figures of Speech Used in the in the Bible" where I got the info from word for word. I don't go twisting any words around which you along with others so easily do. :rolleyes:

PS: Sorry, but this is as worthy a response I can give to your very sloppy and unworthy post.

Evangelion
July 13th, 2002, 12:16 PM
Wow, that was a compelling argument. :rolleyes:

Apollos
July 13th, 2002, 12:19 PM
agape -

You have a "concrete" mind - completely mixed-up and firmly set (in error). :D

I was truly hoping for a more eloquent repsonse from you, knowing that God's word is His power to save man today, but I see not even He can reach you.

I do not regret taking the time for that post. I know there are those out there searching for truth and I know my last post can help them find it!

I hope that you will someday actually attempt to address the questions I presented to you, and in searching for the truth, you will find the salvation that God is offering you and all others who are lost!

(Oh yes, I have Bullinger's book - it is very good. BUT he was NOT inspired and can make mistakes like any other man!)

agape
July 13th, 2002, 12:42 PM
Originally posted by Apollos
agape -
You have a "concrete" mind - completely mixed-up and firmly set... I do have a concrete mind which is clearly and firmly set on the Truth of God's Word. :D

I was truly hoping for a more eloquent repsonse from you, knowing that God's word is His power to save man today, but I see not even He can reach you.I only give a more eloquent response to someone who offers a more eloquent post, which in this case is certainly not you.

I do not regret taking the time for that post. I know there are those out there searching for truth and I know my last post can help them find it!It would be far more valuable if you took the time to rightly divide the Word of Truth instead of just slipping in your own PI.

I hope that you will someday actually attempt to address the questions I presented to you, and in searching for the truth, you will find the salvation that God is offering you and all others who are lost!I hope someday you will actually do II Timothy 2:15 with all diligence and all honesty before God and before man.

(Oh yes, I have Bullinger's book - it is very good. BUT he was NOT inspired and can make mistakes like any other man!) He was not perfect; however he was inspired in more ways when it came to handling God's Word, which is more than I can say for you with your sloppy handling of God's Word. You can't even hold a candle to Bullinger's face when it comes to working the Word of God.

agape
July 13th, 2002, 12:43 PM
Originally posted by Evangelion
Wow, that was a compelling argument. Far more compelling than the arguments you been raising lately. :rolleyes:

Evangelion
July 13th, 2002, 12:49 PM
ROTFL... :D

agape
July 13th, 2002, 12:54 PM
Originally posted by Evangelion
ROTFL... :D Glad to see that you can laugh at yourself...it's a good thing. :D

Apollos
July 13th, 2002, 01:36 PM
agape -

Your condescendion is surpassed only by your ignorance of God's word.

It is not by accident that you can answer my last post "point for point", yet when one hits with the light of truth, you scurry away like a roach.

Good luck - you need it! :down:

c.moore
July 13th, 2002, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by agape
LOL...only in the new bible you are writing.
Oh please Kevin, I've been there, already gave my explanation explaining that Peter was talking about "spiritual water"...not water baptism. Please find and read.

They were baptized with the holy spirit and began to speak with tongues. You need to read both chapter 10 and 11 to understand more fully...maybe it will finally sink into your head that John baptized with water...BUT...BUT ..."BUT YE SHALL BE BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST..."
So what is your point? In the OT the God allowed His spirit to be upon certain people so that God could give them the revelation they needed to know, which they could not know by their five senses. They prophesied what God told them. Numbers 11:25 has nothing to do with "baptism" at all...except in your new writing of the bible. :rolleyes"
What put them INTO Christ could only be accomplished by their being baptized with HOLY SPIRIT...NOT WATER. AFTER Paul explained to them that AFTER John came CHRIST JESUS. He preached CHRIST. They HEARD and believed and were baptized with the HOLY SPIRIt...NOT WATER.

THEN Paul laid hands on them and prayed that they would manifest the ALREADY SPIRIT OF GOD IN THEM...THEY SPOKE IN TONGUES AND PROPHESIED.

Plain and simple. :)

In the name of the Lord has nothing to do with whether one is baptized in water or in spirit...LOL. Acts 10:47-48 is proof that they were not water baptized but were baptized in the holy spirit...For JESUS SAID: "...BUT YE SHALL BE BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST NOT MANY DAYS HENCE." They were baptized in the holy spirit and they spoke in tongues which was evidence of their receiving the gift of holy spirit. NO WATER.

It doesn't take a Bible scholar to realize that Jesus is exaplaining the concept that one must be reborn in order to enter the kingdom of heaven. Jesus answers this question by saying that one needs to be born of water and the spirit to be reborn,It may not take a bible scholar, but it does take one who honestly does II Timothy 2:15 which does not include writing one's own bible such as you do. You still continue to twist God's Word around to make it say what you only want it to say such as you are now doing with John 3:5-7. Jesus plainly states: John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. Also, in verse 3; "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Jesus makes it very clear that a person needs to be born again of the Spirit. We are not RE-Born of our first birth, of course... nor are we re-born of spiritual birth because we never had a spiritual birth to do it again. We are BORN AGAIN. The "again" means we were born in the flesh the first time (from our mother's womb where there is water)...born of water...and then we are born AGAIN...a new birth...with HOLY SPIRIT. Get it now? Sheesh...

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

John 3:6 THAT WHICH IS BORN OF THE FLESH IS FLESH;....

...and THAT WHICH IS BORN OF THE SPIRIT IS SPIRIT.

We are first born of our parents...the physical, fleshy birth...then we are "born AGAIN" with the HOLY SPIRIT.

Also note what Jesus stated is exactly what was practiced in the NT (Acts 10:47-48, Acts 2:38).

Hebrews 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water [louo = to bathe, wash, of a dead person, washing to cleanse blood out of the wounds]

This has nothing to do with being "baptized in water." Having their bodies washed with pure water indicates ceremonial washing or cleansing. See Exodus 30:18-24. [/QUOTE]




Agape most of this water baptismo scuba divers don`t want to understand what the bbok of Acts is al about.

if they understand about Acts theyy might get the message, and the devil will be mad.:)

Keep up the truth, and facts,they might get it after 40 years going through the internet :D :up:

God bless

HopeofGlory
July 13th, 2002, 03:32 PM
As we review the actual account of Jesus speaking of the “things” of the kingdom we see water baptism being directly related to the promise of the kingdom. Water baptism was to "prepare" them to enter into the kingdom as kings and priests. John’s baptism in Acts 1: 5 is spoken of in contrast to..... “but” (on the contrary) ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost!

Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: Ex. 19:5 (KJV)
And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel. Ex. 19:6 (KJV)

The voice of one crying in the wilderness, "Prepare" ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. Mark 1:3 (KJV)
John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. Mark 1:4 (KJV)

To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: Acts 1:3 (KJV)
And, being assembled together with [them], commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, [saith he], ye have heard of me. Acts 1:4 (KJV)
For John truly baptized with water; but (on the contrary) ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. Acts 1:5 (KJV)
When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? Acts 1:6 (KJV)
And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. Acts 1:7 (KJV)
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. Acts 1:8 (KJV)

"Not many days hence" in verse 5 must be considered if we seek the truth of the Lord's words. The promise was not received as we see it mentioned again in 2 Pet 3:9 with Peter explaining that it was not received with these words: But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 2 Pet. 3:8 (KJV)
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 2 Pet. 3:9 (KJV)

Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompense of reward. Heb. 10:35 (KJV)
For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. Heb. 10:36 (KJV)
For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. Heb. 10:37 (KJV)

And, being assembled together with [them], commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, [saith he], ye have heard of me. Acts 1:4 (KJV)

Jesus told them of the "things" of the kingdom then commanded go to Jerusalem "but"(on the contrary) "wait" for the promise of the father "ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost" not many days hence.

It was not for them to know the times or the seasons!
Peter quoting the Lord in Acts 11:16 does not mean he understood it! Peter believed they would receive the kingdom and the promise but as seen in 2 Pet 3:9 we know Peter was wrong!

But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. Acts 1:8 (KJV)

The above verse explains what they will received at Jerusalem “but ye shall receive power” and that is exactly what they received and is proved in the fact there is not one verse in which they were baptized with the Holy Ghost. What they received at Pentecost was not unique and it was not baptism with the Holy Ghost.

Baptism “of” the Holy Ghost is not a biblical term but John said Jesus would baptize with the Holy Ghost. Some believe the Holy Ghost baptized which is not true, like the "baptism of John" meaning John baptized. If you believe Jesus will baptize with the Holy Ghost then use the biblical term "baptize with the Holy Ghost“. If we believe the word is inspired by God then let's not destroy the terminology.

They truly did receive the gift of the Holy Ghost and it was promised that they would receive it at Pentecost. Jesus did not promise He would baptize with the Holy Ghost at Pentecost but said “not many days hence“.
Ye shall receive power is on the other side of "but"(on the contrary) "wait","not many days hence" of He will "baptized with the Holy Ghost."

Spirit filled was not unique at Pentecost and their baptism was one of water. Moses received like power and others were filled with the Holy Ghost before Pentecost.

Old testament examples:

For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother’s womb. Luke 1:15 (KJV)

And it came to pass that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: Luke 1:41 (KJV)

In order to prophecy in the name of Jesus and perform miracles, etc one has to be filled with the Holy Ghost. The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. John 3:2 (KJV)

"Gifts" of the Holy Ghost are clearly taught and can only be done by God through them.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? Matt. 7:22 (KJV)
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Matt. 7:23 (KJV)

Those that received the filling of the Holy Ghost with power (children of the kingdom) will be told by the Lord that He never knew them!!!!!!!! Scripture testifies that we were chosen before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4) and we must believe in the blood sacrifice of the gift giver for our sins and not the gifts.

Receiving gifts of the Holy Ghost should not be confused with being baptized by the Spirit into the body. Spirit baptism places “all” (1 Cor 12:13) who accept Christ’s death for their sins into the body of Christ and it does not give “all” power (Acts 1:8) to perform miracles as did the gift of the Holy Ghost.

In Christ
Craig

agape
July 13th, 2002, 03:55 PM
Originally posted by c.moore
Keep up the truth, and facts,they might get it after 40 years going through the internet :D :up: Thanks c.moore...hope they see the truth a lot sooner than 40 years! :up:

c.moore
July 13th, 2002, 05:49 PM
Hello agape

Just keep praying for them that God opens thier eyes open like he did saul.

Be blessed

Kevin
July 13th, 2002, 08:34 PM
Agape,


Acts 10:47-48
Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have recieved the Holy Spirit just as we have?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh please Kevin, I've been there, already gave my explanation explaining that Peter was talking about "spiritual water"...not water baptism. Please find and read.[quote]

This is NOT speaking of spiritual water. It is speaking of literal water. A perfect example is when Philip baptized the eunuch in water. Are you going to tell me that that was spirit water too? After being preached Jesus, he was baptized into Christ, and it used real WATER. The eunuch SAW the water and asked "See, here is water, what doth hinder me from being baptized?". He SAW water, you can't see spiritual water.

[quote]They were baptized with the holy spirit and began to speak with tongues.

Yup, the same thing (miraculous abilities) happened to the people in Numbers too. That didn't put them into Christ. The fact is, if the falling of the HS, which gave the Gentiles the ability to speak in tongues, is what put them into Christ, then there would be no need for Peter to command baptism in the name of the Lord after already being baptized by the Spirit, but he DID.

Are you ever going to answer my point about MAN not having the ability to baptize people with spirit baptism? MAN was commanded to preach and baptize, and the only baptism that MAN can perform is water baptism. It is GOD who baptizes with the HS at His choosing, not MAN, therefore HS baptism cannot be the baptism commanded in the Great Commission (the ONE baptism), because MAN was told to do it, not God.


The people in Numbers 11:25 also had the HS fall upon them, giving them the ability to prophecy! The same spirit did the same thing for both parties - it gave them power.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So what is your point? In the OT the God allowed His spirit to be upon certain people so that God could give them the revelation they needed to know, which they could not know by their five senses. They prophesied what God told them. Numbers 11:25 has nothing to do with "baptism" at all...except in your new writing of the bible.

My point is that both parties (Numbers 11:25 and Acts 10:44) had the SAME Spirit rest upon them which had the SAME effect upon them (miraculous abilities). If you are going to argue that the falling of the HS is what put them into Christ in Acts 10:44, then, to be consistent, you must also say that it put the people in Numbers into Christ, which is impossible. The same thing happened by the same spirit to both parties.


What put them INTO Christ could only be accomplished by their being baptized with HOLY SPIRIT

Nope. The baptism which puts us into Christ is the one commanded at the Great Commission, which MAN is commanded to do, NOT God. Man cannot baptize people with the HS. Man can however, baptize people in water in the name of the Lord, and then God give the gift of the HS (Acts 2:38).


Acts 10:47-48 is proof that they were not water baptized but were baptized in the holy spirit...For JESUS SAID: "...BUT YE SHALL BE BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST NOT MANY DAYS HENCE."

Oh PLEASE!!! He was speaking to the apostles when He said "ye will be baptized with the Holy Ghost". And it happened in Acts 2:3-4. They received miraculous powers, which is a far cry from being baptized into the death of Chist! As said earlier, this same thing happened to the people in Numbers!


John 3:6 THAT WHICH IS BORN OF THE FLESH IS FLESH;....

...and THAT WHICH IS BORN OF THE SPIRIT IS SPIRIT.

I agree with those verses. Jesus is simply saying that we need to be reborn in the Spirit in order to make into the kingdom of God. Jesus explains HOW on is born of the Spirit in verse 5, with WATER and the Spirit, which is what is practiced in the NT (eunuch baptism for example).

One who is born of the flesh, that is, somebody who hasn't been baptized into Christ (which does use water), will not enter the kingdom of heaven.


We are first born of our parents...the physical, fleshy birth...then we are "born AGAIN" with the HOLY SPIRIT.

The "water" spoken of in verse 5 is NOT speaking of water in the womb. :rolleyes: Nicodemus is asking how one is born again, after already coming out of the womb with water. To answer a question on how to be born AGAIN has NOTHING to do with the first natural birth.


Hebrews 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water [louo = to bathe, wash, of a dead person, washing to cleanse blood out of the wounds]

This has nothing to do with being "baptized in water." Having their bodies washed with pure water indicates ceremonial washing or cleansing. See Exodus 30:18-24.

Wrong (again). If you read just a few verses back (verse 19), you would see that the verse I quoted is relevant to OUR dispensation, not the one in Exodus. It speaks having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, which was not possible in Exodus. Nice try. It then goes on to say how are bodies are washed with pure water, which is exactly what happened when Phillip baptized the eunuch.

HopeofGlory
July 13th, 2002, 09:56 PM
Kevin,

My replies are bold.

I can't speak for agape but your false interpretations are a product of a false spirit.

Acts 10:47-48
Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have recieved the Holy Spirit just as we have?


This is NOT speaking of spiritual water. It is speaking of literal water. A perfect example is when Philip baptized the eunuch in water. Are you going to tell me that that was spirit water too? After being preached Jesus, he was baptized into Christ, and it used real WATER. The eunuch SAW the water and asked "See, here is water, what doth hinder me from being baptized?". He SAW water, you can't see spiritual water.

The eunuch was not baptized into Christ! He was baptized in water. Your logic > water=Christ.:confused: Show me in context where the eunuch or Cornelius was baptized into Christ.
You mangle scripture through your ineptitude, totally destroying it's clear meaning.


[quote]They were baptized with the holy spirit and began to speak with tongues.

Yup, the same thing (miraculous abilities) happened to the people in Numbers too. That didn't put them into Christ. The fact is, if the falling of the HS, which gave the Gentiles the ability to speak in tongues, is what put them into Christ, then there would be no need for Peter to command baptism in the name of the Lord after already being baptized by the Spirit, be he DID.

They were not baptized by the Spirit into the body at Pentecost but they did receive "power".....But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. Acts 1:8 (KJV)

Again, give me one scripture where "water" baptism placed placed anybody into Christ.


Are you ever going to answer my point about MAN not having the ability to baptize people with spirit baptism?

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Matt. 28:19 (KJV)

It is clear the apostles are being instructed to teach and the teaching of the word will baptize them. The word is spirit and it is by this word we are baptized...It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life John 6:63 (KJV). The quickening of the spirit (baptism) is immediate when the words of the new testament are believed. The new testament is a new testimony with a greater witness (John 5:33-36) for remission of sins (Matt. 26:28) as opposed to the old testimony for remission (Mark 1:4).



MAN was commanded to preach and baptize,

More perversion, Christ never commanded the apostles to "water" baptize.

and the only baptism that MAN can perform is water baptism.

Good point.

It is GOD who baptizes with the HS at His choosing, not MAN,

Spirit baptism is for "all" and it is an operation of God not man!

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Cor. 12:13 (KJV)

Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the ""operation of God"", who hath raised him from the dead. Col. 2:12 (KJV)


therefore HS baptism cannot the baptism commanded in the Great Commission (the ONE baptism), because MAN was told to do it, not God.

No one tells God what to do! Your twisted reasoning would conclude such because you believe that man has the power to baptize into Christ even though it is an operation of God and the Baptist said.. but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
Mark 1:8 (KJV)

In Christ
Craig

itsjustdave1988
July 13th, 2002, 10:28 PM
From the very 1st Century, the Fathers of the Church have taught that through Baptism, God gives us grace. The sacred writers tell us that it is in baptism that we are saved, buried with Christ, incorporated into his body, washed of our sins, regenerated, cleansed, and so on (see Acts 2:38, 22:16; Rom. 6:1–4; 1 Cor. 6:11, 12:13; Gal. 3:26–27; Eph. 5:25-27; Col. 2:11–12; Titus 3:5; 1 Pet. 3:18–22). They are unanimous in speaking of baptism as really bringing about a spiritual effect.

After hearing the gospel proclaimed by Peter, the crowd asked Peter, "What are we to do, brothers?" Peter answered, "You must reform and be baptized, each one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, that your sins may be forgiven; then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." (Act 3:37-38)

Then what did the first Christian's do? "The devoted themselves to the apostles' instruction and the communal life, to the breaking of bread and the prayers." (cf. Acts 3:42) This is the essence of a Christian life. Christians devoted themselves to apostolic teaching, and Baptism was a prominent part of that teaching.

Protestant early Church historian J. N. D. Kelly writes, "From the beginning baptism was the universally accepted rite of admission to the Church. . . . As regards its significance, it was always held to convey the remission of sins . . . we descend into the water ‘dead’ and come out again ‘alive’; we receive a white robe which symbolizes the Spirit . . .the Spirit is God himself dwelling in the believer, and the resulting life is a re-creation. Prior to baptism . . . our heart was the abode of demons . . . baptism supplies us with the weapons for our spiritual warfare" (Early Christian Doctrines, 193–4).

[B]Quotations from Early Church Fathers on Baptism...

The Letter of Barnabas

"Regarding , we have the evidence of Scripture that Israel would refuse to accept the washing which confers the remission of sins and would set up a substitution of their own instead [Ps. 1:3–6]. Observe there how he describes both the water and the cross in the same figure. His meaning is, ‘Blessed are those who go down into the water with their hopes set on the cross.’ Here he is saying that after we have stepped down into the water, burdened with sin and defilement, we come up out of it bearing fruit, with reverence in our hearts and the hope of Jesus in our souls" (Letter of Barnabas 11:1–10 [A.D. 74]).

[B]Hermas

"‘I have heard, sir,’ said I, ‘from some teacher, that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins.’ He said to me, ‘You have heard rightly, for so it is’" (The Shepherd 4:3:1–2 [A.D. 80]).

Ignatius of Antioch

"Let none of you turn deserter. Let your baptism be your armor; your faith, your helmet; your love, your spear; your patient endurance, your panoply" (Letter to Polycarp 6 [A.D. 110]).

Second Clement

"For, if we do the will of Christ, we shall find rest; but if otherwise, then nothing shall deliver us from eternal punishment, if we should disobey his commandments. . . . [W]ith what confidence shall we, if we keep not our baptism pure and undefiled, enter into the kingdom of God? Or who shall be our advocate, unless we be found having holy and righteous works?’ (Second Clement 6:7–9 [A.D. 150]).

Justin Martyr

"Whoever are convinced and believe that what they are taught and told by us is the truth, and professes to be able to live accordingly, are instructed to pray and to beseech God in fasting for the remission of their former sins, while we pray and fast with them. Then they are led by us to a place where there is water, and they are reborn in the same kind of rebirth in which we ourselves were reborn: ‘In the name of God, the Lord and Father of all, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit,’ they receive the washing of water. For Christ said, ‘Unless you be reborn, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven’" (First Apology 61:14–17 [A.D. 151]).

Theophilus of Antioch

"Moreover, those things which were created from the waters were blessed by God, so that this might also be a sign that men would at a future time receive repentance and remission of sins through water and the bath of regeneration—all who proceed to the truth and are born again and receive a blessing from God" (To Autolycus 12:16 [A.D. 181]).

Clement of Alexandria

"When we are baptized, we are enlightened. Being enlightened, we are adopted as sons. Adopted as sons, we are made perfect. Made perfect, we become immortal . . . ‘and sons of the Most High’ [Ps. 82:6]. This work is variously called grace, illumination, perfection, and washing. It is a washing by which we are cleansed of sins, a gift of grace by which the punishments due our sins are remitted, an illumination by which we behold that holy light of salvation" (The Instructor of Children 1:6:26:1 [A.D. 191]).

itsjustdave1988

Kevin
July 13th, 2002, 11:05 PM
HopeofGlory,


I can't speak for agape but your false interpretations are a product of a false spirit.

Coming from you, and your position on the word of God, that's a compliment. I'm glad I don't share your beliefs.


The eunuch was not baptized into Christ!

Proof? He was preached Jesus and then was baptized. Just what do you think he was baptized into? :rolleyes:


He was baptized in water.

Agreed.


Your logic > water=Christ.

Wrong. You just don't understand.


Show me in context where the eunuch or Cornelius was baptized into Christ.

Both parties were baptized after being preached the gospel. Why would they be baptized into anything other than Christ, when He is the point of the gospel message?


They were not baptized by the Spirit into the body at Pentecost but they did receive "power".....But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. Acts 1:8 (KJV)

Again, give me one scripture where "water" baptism placed placed anybody into Christ.

The eunuch. You're just too blinded by your dispy garbage to realize that. Pity.


It is clear the apostles are being instructed to teach and the teaching of the word will baptize them.

Wrong. You are trying to make the Great Commission say something that it does not say. Jesus gave the Great Commission for MAN, yes MAN, to carry out. Everything mentioned in there was for MAN to do. Did he address the great commission to the Spirit (the word)? NO!! Therefore the word does not automatically baptize people when they hear and believe it,because the Spirit was not commanded to do so. That is your inserted baloney.


The word is spirit and it is by this word we are baptized

Yes, it is by the word of God (the Spirit) which compells us to be baptized into Christ. This is what happened to the eunuch and the Jews in Acts 2:38. Since one is supposedly automatically baptized upon hearing the gospel, why did Peter have to tell them to be baptized (Acts 2:38)? He wouldn't have to tell them if it automatically happens. :rolleyes: Go ahead, tell me it's because Peter didn't preach the blood of Christ...


It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life

Yes, those words are life. Part of those words that lead to life are "Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit." (Acts 2:38)


The quickening of the spirit (baptism) is immediate when the words of the new testament are believed.

Oh really? Then why didn't the HS fall upon me and rest on my head? Why didn't I see the burning tongues of fire when I believed?


MAN was commanded to preach and baptize,

More perversion,

You're blindness is pathetic. Here, answer this simple question for me: To whom was Jesus speaking when He instituted the Great Commission?

If you answer with anything other than the apostles, which are MEN, then you need some serious help in your Bible studies. Serious help.


Christ never commanded the apostles to "water" baptize.

Yes He did, because that's what was practiced!


and the only baptism that MAN can perform is water baptism.

Good point.

Indeed it is. Thank you. :)


therefore HS baptism cannot the baptism commanded in the Great Commission (the ONE baptism), because MAN was told to do it, not God.

No one tells God what to do!

I would never dream of telling God what to do. You are one confused individual.


and the Baptist said.. but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
Mark 1:8 (KJV)

I agree with that. One such example is Acts 2:38 - "and you shall recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit".

Kevin
July 13th, 2002, 11:21 PM
itsjustdave1988,

Amen and amen!

Kevin
July 13th, 2002, 11:49 PM
So tell me, Agape, when you chew food with your mouth, are you actually using your mouth, or are you doing that inwardly with actually using your mouth? :rolleyes:

agape
July 14th, 2002, 12:00 AM
Originally posted by Kevin
So tell me, Agape, when you chew food with your mouth, are you actually using your mouth, or are you doing that inwardly with actually using your mouth? :rolleyes: Give it a rest Kevin, you are just making yourself look more and more ridiculous every time. :D

I guess it's just too spiritual for you to understand so it just keeps going over your head. :rolleyes:

agape
July 14th, 2002, 01:12 AM
itsjustdave,

What you presented concerning water baptism is totally off God's Word. You just gave "man"s" opinion or this is what so and so said of which the Word of God does not agree with at all.

John's water baptism went out when Christ's spirit baptism was made available for all who believe in him.

I'll take God's Word over anyone else's word and I don't care who they are or who they are claimed to be.

Acts 1:5:
For John truly baptised with water, BUT YE SHALL BE BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST NOT MANY DAYS HENCE."

Jesus Christ himself contrasted the baptism in the spirit with John the Baptist’s baptism with water.

Even John understood this:

Mark 1:2-8
As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

And John was clothed with camel's hair, and with a girdle of a skin about his loins; and he did eat locusts and wild honey;

And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose.

I indeed have baptized you with water: b]BUT he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.[/b]

John knew his baptism was only temporary and preparatory in nature. John was sent before Christ, to prepare the way before Christ and he taught of the one that would come who would be mightier than he and would baptize them with a greater baptism than water.

John 1:19-34:
And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou? (20) And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ. (21) And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No. (22) Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself? (23) He said, I [am] the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias. (24) And they which were sent were of the Pharisees. (25) And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet? (26) John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: BUT there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; (27) He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose. (28) These things were done in Bethabara beyond Jordan, where John was baptizing. (29) The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. (30) This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me. (31) And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water. (32) And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. (33) And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, UPON WHOM THOU SHALT SEE THE SPIRIT DESCENDING AND REMAINING ON HIM, THE SAME IS HE WHICH BAPTIZEDTH WITH THE HOLY GHOST. (34) And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

John prepared men’s hearts for the coming of the redeemer, Jesus Christ. By preaching and baptizing a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins, he prepared and pointed the way towards the one, Jesus Christ, who would truly, completely and fully accomplish salvation from sin.

John’s baptism with water was not the perfect and final baptism. People were not saved by John's water baptism during the gospel period. If that were possible, there would have been no need for Jesus Christ to have shed his blood and died on the cross and no need for any other baptism. Both Jesus Christ and John spoke of a greater baptism to come which would be the baptism in the spirit; therefore, the temporary and preparatory baptism of water became unnecessary and obsolete.

The "so-called" religious, man-made quotations from the early church fathers which others say they said, and of which of course there are contradictions among them, means nothing to me, especially when they contradict the truth of God's Word altogether. I choose to believe what Jesus taught, which is stated above over what "man" says he taught.

Jesus Christ taught: "For John truly baptized with water, BUT YE SHALL BE BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST..." . :)

c.moore
July 14th, 2002, 01:57 AM
Quote Agape
Give it a rest Kevin, you are just making yourself look more and more ridiculous every time.

I guess it's just too spiritual for you to understand so it just keeps going over your head.


Quote c.moore

Your right Agape.
1Co:2:14: But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Gopd bless you

Evangelion
July 14th, 2002, 02:33 AM
HopeOfGlory -


More perversion, Christ never commanded the apostles to "water" baptize.

Really? Kevin has already mentioned the Great Commission. What do you believe Christ meant by it?

Here's B. W. Johnson (The People's New Testament), on the passage in question:

Baptizing them.
The rite by which those who believe upon him should be formally enlisted and enrolled in the school of Christ is baptism. It is not a baptism of the Spirit that he means, because it is one that those whom he addresses are commanded to administer. He alone baptized with the Spirit; his apostles and disciples baptized in water, and it is to this rite that he refers. Hence, when we turn to the preaching of the apostles under this commission, we find that all converts were at once baptized (Act_2:38-41; Act_8:12-18). 5.

The end or result of baptism is also given. Converts were to be baptized into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. It is a positive affirmation of the Old Testament that where the name of the Lord is recorded there will he meet his disciples, or there will be his presence. See Exo_20:24. The Lord declares that the three names, that of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, are recorded in baptism. In this rite, then, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit meet the believer; the Father to receive him as a child, the Son to welcome him as a brother, and to cover him with the mantle of his own purity; the Holy Spirit to endow him with that Spirit by which he can say, "Abba, Father." "Into the name of" is equivalent to "into the presence of," or "into the Father, and into the Son, and into the Holy Spirit."


:)

agape
July 14th, 2002, 03:50 AM
Originally posted by Kevin
Agape,
Yup, the same thing (miraculous abilities) happened to the people in Numbers too.Big difference from OT to NT. To receive the spirit upon them temporarily can't be compared to the receiving God's Spirit permanently, to be saved, born again and have eternal life.

That didn't put them into Christ. The fact is, if the falling of the HS, which gave the Gentiles the ability to speak in tongues, is what put them into Christ, then there would be no need for Peter to command baptism in the name of the Lord after already being baptized by the Spirit, but he DID.No he DID NOT. They never touched water. They were born again as Peter was teaching them the Christ, the Messiah, their Lord and Savior. When Peter heard them speak in tongues, he remembered what Christ taught: Acts 1:5, "For John truly baptized with water, BUT YE SHALL BE BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST...." There was absolutely no need for them to be baptized in water and Peter knew this.

Acts 10:47-48
Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have recieved the Holy Spirit just as we have?

It is not speaking of water baptism. The subject never even came up. Peter replied to those Judean believers who were with him who were amazed that the Gentiles should receive the gift of holy spirit and spoke with tongues. Peter said can any man forbid water. Where's water baptism even mentioned. In Acts 11, Peter relates the incident to those in Jerusalem and states the following:

Acts 11:15-17:
And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as [he did] unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

There is not even a hint of water baptism mentioned in Paul's relating the events that took place with the Gentiles in any of the verses. Paul stated who was I to withstand God's will and purpose for the Gentiles. He had commanded or arranged for them to be baptized in the holy spirit, the baptism God had shown him they were to be baptized with..."BUT YE SHALL BE BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST..."

Are you ever going to answer my point about MAN not having the ability to baptize people with spirit baptism? MAN was commanded to preach and baptize, and the only baptism that MAN can perform is water baptism. It is GOD who baptizes with the HS at His choosing, not MAN, therefore HS baptism cannot be the baptism commanded in the Great Commission (the ONE baptism), because MAN was told to do it, not God.Peter preached the Word to Cornelius and his household and while he preached, they were baptized with the holy spirit and spoke with tongues. When are you going to get over the fact that "in the name of the Lord" DOES NOT MEAN WATER! :rolleyes:

Jesus' last words to the Apostles before he ascended to His Father were: "For John truly baptized with water, BUT YE SHALL BE BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST NOT MANY DAYS HENCE." He did not tell them to baptize with John's baptism. SPIRIT BAPTISM is the ONE BAPTISM...the only TRUE BAPTISM. The only great commission is to preached the gospel of the good news of SALVATION and in doing so, those who believe, are baptized with the HOLY SPIRIT....are saved, born again and have eternal life which water baptism CAN NOT do for mankind. Water is water and spirit is spirit. For anyone to enter into the Kingdom of God he MUST BE BORN OF THE SPIRIT. HE MUST BE BORN AGAIN...HE MUST BE BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT.

If you are going to argue that the falling of the HS is what put them into Christ in Acts 10:44, then, to be consistent, you must also say that it put the people in Numbers into Christ, which is impossible.Exactly my point...impossible because in Numbers, they were not born again...they were NOT BAPTIZED IN THE HOLY SPIRIT AT ALL. And since when is the NT suppose to be consistent with the OT?? There is no comparison to be made with what occurred in Numbers with what occurred in Acts. Keep Numbers where it belongs...in the OT.

The same thing happened by the same spirit to both parties.Only in the false "written word by Kevin." What occured in Numbers is not the same thing that occurred with Cornelius and his household...so again, leave Numbers, OT, out altogether because it does not tie in with the new birth at all.

The baptism which puts us into Christ is the one commanded at the Great CommissionTo be found only in Kevin's newly written bible. :rolleyes:

Man can however, baptize people in water in the name of the Lord, and then God give the gift of the HS (Acts 2:38).Quoted from Kevin's newly written bible which is made up to fit his erroneous beliefs. The true Word of God never states that water baptism is the great commission and nor does it state that man baptizes with water and then God gives the gift. They are all lies. :rolleyes:

Jesus is simply saying that we need to be reborn in the Spirit in order to make into the kingdom of God.Jesus is simply saying that one must be born again of the Spirit in order to enter into the kingdom of God. He DID NOT SAY one must be water baptized. The water is referring to first natural birth...the physical human birth. Born again means to be born from above, a spiritual birth. Jesus Christ is not talking about being born of water baptism...how ridiculous. No one can be "born" of water baptism...only born of water from the mother's womb.

Jesus explains HOW on is born of the Spirit in verse 5, with WATER and the Spirit, which is what is practiced in the NT (eunuch baptism for example).LOL...I can't help but laugh when one can obviously see how you make things up as you go along. That which is born of the flesh is flesh..born the first birth from the mother's womb...and that which is born of the spirit is spirit...born of the Spirit. Born AGAIN...means to be born a second time with a new spiritual nature.

Regarding the eunuch:

God sent Philip to the eunuch. Philip, a born again Christian preached Christ to the eunuch. The eunuch believed and therefore baptized with the holy spirit. I don't think God is one to waste His time and the time of those who work for Him. He knew the eunuch would believe and therefore sent Philip to him. It was the eunuch's idea alone to be water baptized as they came across water. It does not say they were looking for water and nor does it say Philip told the eunuch he must be water baptized. It was not the water that saved him because he had already believed on Christ and was already save, born again and had eternal life. It's faith in Christ that gets one born again. The new birth occurs without one doing any works on his own such as it is with water baptism. We are saved by grace...not of works lest any man should boast. It's a free gift. The new birth automatically and instantaneously occurs when one truly believes that Christ died for the remission of their sins, was raised from the dead and brought unto them eternal life.

Kevin, water baptism remains with John the baptist of the OC who is now dead. Spirit baptism by Christ is an always present and living reality because through the new birth of the Spirit, Christ lives in us...it is Christ in us the hope of glory! :)

Evangelion
July 14th, 2002, 04:07 AM
This last post of Agape's was very interesting. It gives us a special insight into the mind of the "Spirit baptism" believer. Watch closely...

First Agape cites the follow passage of Scripture:

Acts 10:47-48.
Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?

Then Agape writes this:


It is not speaking of water baptism. The subject never even came up.

So when Peter wrote this...

Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized

...he didn't mean "water baptism"? The subject never came up?

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. :rolleyes:

itsjustdave1988
July 14th, 2002, 04:25 AM
Unfortunately, I am not an eyewitness to Christ's ministry. Therefore, I must rely upon apostolic teaching to know what Christ taught and what being Christian means. These apostles were men. So, relying upon what men said is a necessity.

What these apostles said about Christ was passed on by word of mouth, then finally came to be written down. There were many various gospels and epistles used by the Christian Church in the first four centuries. Some, but not all of these were canonized.

Here's a web site showing a table of what was understood as "scripture" by theologians of the first four centuries:

http://www.ntcanon.org/table.shtml

As you can see, the canon of scripture was less than a unanimous agreement. The point being, the canon of scripture was not decided upon authoritatively until the Catholic Church declared the canon at the end of the fourth century. It is these and only these canonized books which are believed to be inspired by God.

However, that does not discount the other writings of the first three centuries as an authentic & faithful record of what our early Church Fathers actually believed. Think of it as an ancient Bible Commentary. Certainly you've read a Bible Commentary or two. Except these Bible Commentaries are written by men who more fully understood the ancient language in which the Bible was written, as well as the historical context.

After all, many of these men were given the fullness of gospel truth directly from eyewitnesses to Christ's ministry. So, can I easily disregard the teachings of the apostolic fathers? These men are the successors to the apostles. They too wrote about Christian doctrine in the 1st century, 2nd century, 3rd century ... the canon of scripture was not even decided until the end of the 4th century.

The Bible is our sacred and first source of apostolic teaching. However, I admittedly do not find the Bible to be self-interpreting. It is an ancient collection of documents written in many ancient languages. The fact that there are thousands of Protestant denominations, each teaching its own interpretation of the Bible is an indication that there can be many interpretations. Also, quite obviously, we believe differently about baptism based upon the same scripture. So, what can good Christians use as a tie breaker when it comes to rightly interpreting the Word of God? Can we close our eyes to the preponderance of ancient documents of the early Church? What then is Gospel Truth? It certainly can't be based upon who makes the better argument or majority vote. Truth is afterall truth, no matter how well it is understood or framed in an argument, and Truth, especially Divinely Revealed Truth is certainly not subject to majority vote.

So which authority do you adhere to? I, like many others need help ... teachers... people having some authority...the early Father's of the Church for example. I cannot easily disregard their interpretation of the Bible in favor of Protestant reformers whose commentaries appeared over a thousand years later, or any so-called scholar which may appear on this forum.

After all, Ignatius was a disciple of the apostle John. He knew him personally. He did not merely need to interpret John's gospel like you and I. He learned Christian doctrine from an eyewitness to Christ's ministry. His teaching should carry much weight. What did he write about the early Church and it's beliefs. He was a first century Bishop of Antioch, chosen to lead one of the most honored Christian communities of the first century. He was appointed Bishop after Evodius, who was himself appointed by the apostle Peter. Ignatius was martyred for his belief in Christ. Are you so confident that your interpretation is more authoritative than the teachings of Ignatius? How about Clement? Justin Martyr? You don't truly believe that your argument is the only unique perspective which is valid interpretation? Perhaps, in our own vain glory, we forget that these theological issues have been thoroughly addressed in the span of the last 2000 years.

Here's a site which lists many Father's of the Church and their writings:

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/

Now to the original question ... Do I believe I should be baptised in water? Yes. Why? Scripture ... Acts 10:47-48. "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" This was apostolic teaching from the very first century. And if I choose to be Christian, I choose, like the earliest Christians, to "devote myself to the apostles' instruction" (Acts 3,42) I am not, however, free to re-interpret scripture into an apostolic teaching that never was.

Now the real kicker ... how do I know what apostolic teaching is? My prayerful understanding of scripture, in context with other ancient Christian documents of the first 3 centuries, and because I'm Catholic, I am always disposed to the teaching authority of the Catholic Church. Might I be wrong? Certainly. Many theologians more learned than I have grappled with this and many doctrinal matters. However, on this matter of baptism, the early Father's of the Church are unanimous. Furthermore, the doctrine on this teaching appears to be unchallenged until the Protestant Reformers in the middle ages.

Surely, if my personal understanding of baptism was a novel interpretation having no linkage to true apostolic teaching, there would be many ancient documents which prove my interpretation incorrect in the context of apostolic teaching. I've looked. I find none. If you look. You will find many.

Here's just one ... The Didache. The Didache was a first century document (c. 100 AD) which was likely used to teach Christian doctrine to new converts to Christianity. Clement of Alexandria (150-215) second known leader of the catechetical school of Alexandria; and Didymus (313-398), head of the catechetical school at Alexandria included the Didache in their list of sacred scripture. It was not, ultimately canonized, however at least two heads of the catechetical school in Alexandria believed it to be authentic Christian teaching.

Here is what the Didache says about baptism: (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0714.htm)

"And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if you have no living water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, do so in warm. But if you have neither, pour out water three times upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit."

Dave
http://www.geocities.com/dave_n_heidi/

Evangelion
July 14th, 2002, 04:35 AM
Dave -


The point being, the canon of scripture was not decided upon authoritatively until the Catholic Church declared the canon at the end of the fourth century.

If this is true (and I don't believe it for a minute), then why did the Catholic Church "decide the canon authoritatively" all over again, in 1545? :)

itsjustdave1988
July 14th, 2002, 05:20 AM
1 Pet 3:20-21 ... in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water. This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ"

Why would Peter need to explain that baptism does not remove dirt from the body? This would make no sense if it was understood to mean baptism without water!

Dave

OldShepherd
July 14th, 2002, 05:24 AM
Originally posted by Evangelion
Dave -

If this is true (and I don't believe it for a minute), then why did the Catholic Church "decide the canon authoritatively" all over again, in 1545? :)

Source? Context?

Evangelion
July 14th, 2002, 05:44 AM
Council of Trent, 1545.

Evangelion
July 14th, 2002, 05:48 AM
Details of the C.O.T. available here (http://history.hanover.edu/early/trent.htm), here (http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/coun20.html), and here. (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15030c.htm)

itsjustdave1988
July 14th, 2002, 06:11 AM
[B]I said...[B/]

The point being, the canon of scripture was not decided upon authoritatively until the Catholic Church declared the canon at the end of the fourth century.

[B]Evangelion asked:[B/]

If this is true (and I don't believe it for a minute), then why did the Catholic Church "decide the canon authoritatively" all over again, in 1545?


[B]A couple of reasons ...[B/]

1) If you read through each of the documents of the Ecumenical Councils, you will find a pattern of re-affirming what previous councils had decided. Especially in light of a new heresy.

2) What was the new heresy? Luther and others took liberties with his Canon, omitting 7 books of the OT and these NT books he considered non-canonical: Epistle of Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelations. After about 100 years, Lutherans came to accept all the same NT books as canonical, however the OT deuterocanonical books (they call them Apocraphyl) are still omitted from most Protestant bibles.

(see http://www.angelfire.com/ny4/djw/lutherantheology.pieperwitness.html )

3) Also, the Council of Rome (AD 382) and the Council of Hippo (AD 393) and the others were not Ecumenical Councils but local Councils. Florence in 1441 is the first Ecumenical Council which lists the canon. Why so late? Nobody questioned the canon until then.

As Protestant church historian J. N. D. Kelly writes, "It should be observed that the Old Testament thus admitted as authoritative in the Church was somewhat bulkier and more comprehensive [than the Protestant Bible]. . . . It always included, though with varying degrees of recognition, the so-called apocrypha or deuterocanonical books" (Early Christian Doctrines, 53), which are rejected by Protestants.

Here's a quick synopsis (see http://www.catholicapologetics.org/ap030700.htm )

Melito, bishop of Sardis, an ancient city of Asia Minor (see Rev 3), c. 170 AD produced the first known Christian attempt at an Old Testament canon. His list maintains the Septuagint order of books but contains only the Old Testament protocanonicals minus the Book of Esther.

The Council of Laodicea, c. 360, produced a list of books similar to today's canon. This was one of the Church's earliest decisions on a canon.

Pope Damasus, 366-384, in his Decree, listed the books of today's canon.

The Council of Rome, 382, was the forum which prompted Pope Damasus' Decree.

Bishop Exuperius of Toulouse wrote to Pope Innocent I in 405 requesting a list of canonical books. Pope Innocent listed the present canon.

The Council of Hippo, a local north Africa council of bishops created the list of the Old and New Testament books in 393 which is the same as the Roman Catholic list today.

The Council of Carthage, a local north Africa council of bishops created the same list of canonical books in 397. This is the council which many Protestant and Evangelical Christians take as the authority for the New Testament canon of books. The Old Testament canon from the same council is identical to Roman Catholic canon today. Another Council of Carthage in 419 offered the same list of canonical books.

Since the Roman Catholic Church does not define truths unless errors abound on the matter, Roman Catholic Christians look to the Council of Florence, an ecumenical council in 1441 for the first definitive list of canonical books.

The final infallible definition of canonical books for Roman Catholic Christians came from the Council of Trent in 1556 in the face of the errors of the Reformers who rejected seven Old Testament books from the canon of scripture to that time

All Christians now agree as to what books constitute the New Testament Books. However, the same canons listed the Old Testament Books which include the 7 books rejected by Luther and most other Protestants. Jerome himself (gave us the Latin Vulgate) had been accused of doubting the inspiration of the 7 OT deuterocanonicals, however, they were included in his Bible translation. Take a look at his defense of his early statements of doubt about the 7 deutorocanonical books (see below). (ref. C:\My Documents\Religion\Apologetics\02 Scripture & Tradition\The Old Testament Canon.htm)

[B]Council of Rome [B/]

"Now indeed we must treat of the divine scriptures, what the universal Catholic Church accepts and what she ought to shun. The order of the Old Testament begins here: Genesis, one book; Exodus, one book; Leviticus, one book; Numbers, one book; Deuteronomy, one book; Joshua [Son of] Nave, one book; Judges, one book; Ruth, one book; Kings, four books [that is, 1 and 2 Samuel and 1 and 2 Kings]; Paralipomenon [Chronicles], two books; Psalms, one book; Solomon, three books: Proverbs, one book, Ecclesiastes, one book, [and] Canticle of Canticles [Song of Songs], one book; likewise Wisdom, one book; Ecclesiasticus [Sirach], one book . . . . Likewise the order of the historical [books]: Job, one book; Tobit, one book; Esdras, two books [Ezra and Nehemiah]; Esther, one book; Judith, one book; Maccabees, two books" (Decree of Pope Damasus [A.D. 382]).

[B]Council of Hippo [B/]

"[It has been decided] that besides the canonical scriptures nothing be read in church under the name of divine Scripture. But the canonical scriptures are as follows: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua the Son of Nun, Judges, Ruth, the Kings, four books, the Chronicles, two books, Job, the Psalter, the five books of Solomon [Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs, Wisdom, and a portion of the Psalms], the twelve books of the prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, Tobit, Judith, Esther, Ezra, two books, Maccabees, two books . . ." (Canon 36 [A.D. 393]).

[B]Council of Carthage III [B/]

"[It has been decided] that nothing except the canonical scriptures should be read in the Church under the name of the divine scriptures. But the canonical scriptures are: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Ruth, four books of Kings, Paralipomenon, two books, Job, the Psalter of David, five books of Solomon, twelve books of the prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, Tobit, Judith, Esther, two books of Esdras, two books of the Maccabees . . ." (Canon 47 [A.D. 397]).


[B]Augustine [B/]

"The whole canon of the scriptures, however, in which we say that consideration is to be applied, is contained in these books: the five of Moses . . . and one book of Joshua [Son of] Nave, one of Judges; one little book which is called Ruth . . . then the four of Kingdoms, and the two of Paralipomenon . . . . [T]here are also others too, of a different order . . . such as Job and Tobit and Esther and Judith and the two books of Maccabees, and the two of Esdras . . . . Then there are the prophets, in which there is one book of the Psalms of David, and three of Solomon. . . . But as to those two books, one of which is entitled Wisdom and the other of which is entitled Ecclesiasticus and which are called ‘of Solomon’ because of a certain similarity to his books, it is held most certainly that they were written by Jesus Sirach. They must, however, be accounted among the prophetic books, because of the authority which is deservedly accredited to them" (Christian Instruction 2:8:13 [A.D. 397]).

"We read in the books of the Maccabees [2 Macc. 12:43] that sacrifice was offered for the dead. But even if it were found nowhere in the Old Testament writings, the authority of the Catholic Church which is clear on this point is of no small weight, where in the prayers of the priest poured forth to the Lord God at his altar the commendation of the dead has its place" (The Care to be Had for the Dead 1:3 [A.D. 421]).

[B]Jerome [B/]

"What sin have I committed if I follow the judgment of the churches? But he who brings charges against me for relating [in my preface to the book of Daniel] the objections that the Hebrews are wont to raise against the story of Susannah [Dan. 13], the Song of the Three Children [Dan. 3:29–68, RSV-CE], and the story of Bel and the Dragon [Dan. 14], which are not found in the Hebrew volume, proves that he is just a foolish sycophant. I was not relating my own personal views, but rather the remarks that they are wont to make against us. If I did not reply to their views in my preface, in the interest of brevity, lest it seem that I was composing not a preface, but a book, I believe I added promptly the remark, for I said, ‘This is not the time to discuss such matters’" (Against Rufinius 11:33 [A.D. 401]).

[B]Pope Innocent I [B/]

"A brief addition shows what books really are received in the canon. These are the things of which you desired to be informed verbally: of Moses, five books, that is, of Genesis, of Exodus, of Leviticus, of Numbers, of Deuteronomy, and Joshua, of Judges, one book, of Kings, four books, and also Ruth, of the prophets, sixteen books, of Solomon, five books, the Psalms. Likewise of the histories, Job, one book, of Tobit, one book, Esther, one, Judith, one, of the Maccabees, two, of Esdras, two, Paralipomenon, two books . . ." (Letters 7 [A.D. 408]).


Dave

Evangelion
July 14th, 2002, 06:48 AM
I'm terribly sorry, but none of this actually answers my question. :)

Apollos
July 14th, 2002, 08:09 AM
agape -

In reference to Acts 10:47-48 -"Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have recieved the Holy Spirit just as we have?" you insulted mankind with...

It is not speaking of water baptism. The subject never even came up. Peter replied to those Judean believers who were with him who were amazed that the Gentiles should receive the gift of holy spirit and spoke with tongues. Peter said can any man forbid water.
LOL !!!! WHAT?? WHAT?? WHAT did Peter mean, what was Peter saying when he said "Can any man forbid water?" Forbid water for WHAT??

LOL !!

You must be studying out of the Moe/Larry/Curly Lexicon.

Too funny! Thanks for the laugh!!

:D

agape
July 14th, 2002, 08:46 AM
Originally posted by Evangelion
This last post of Agape's was very interesting. It gives us a special insight into the mind of the "Spirit baptism" believer. Watch closely...

First Agape cites the follow passage of Scripture:

Acts 10:47-48.
Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?

Then Agape writes this:
So when Peter wrote this...

Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized

...he didn't mean "water baptism"? The subject never came up?

Hey thanks. I thought it was very interesting too! It does give very special insight into spirit baptism. It's a good thing too that Peter remembered the words of Jesus Christ. "For John truly baptized with water BUT YE SHALL BE BAPTIZED "WITH THE HOLY GHOST...". Wow...I can imagine how excited he must have been. The new birth!...to the Gentiles...dogs...of all people! What a day that must have been. But let's overlook all that and get back to the redundant water baptism.

But Peter had it all figured out. Duh...hey guess what no more water. Jesus said we are to be baptized with the HOLY SPIRIT. Nah...he was only kidding...let's dunk them in water anyways...it can't hurt them. YEAH...Right...way to go Evangelion. :rolleyes:

agape
July 14th, 2002, 08:53 AM
Originally posted by Apollos
agape -

In reference to Acts 10:47-48 -"Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have recieved the Holy Spirit just as we have?" you insulted mankind with... LOL...and I guess Jesus Christ insulted mankind when he so clearly and without any question (except for those who can't think) stated "For John truly baptized with water BUT YE SHALL BE BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST...."

LOL !!!! WHAT?? WHAT?? WHAT did JESUS mean, what was JESUS SAYING??? WHEN HE SAID "BUT YE SHALL BE BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST NOT MANY DAYS HENCE???" DUH...THEN PETER SAID WHO SHALL FORBID WATER!!???...DUH... PETER MUST HAVE REAL STUPID...DUH....DUNCE HAT PLEASE....LOL...LOL !!

YOU MUST BE STUDYING OUT MOE, LARRY AND CURLEY LEXICON, APOLLOS...DUH...

Too funny! Thanks for the laugh!!.. :D

Evangelion
July 14th, 2002, 08:55 AM
Ummm... where does Peter say "guess what, no more water"? :)

Evangelion
July 14th, 2002, 08:57 AM
See? You present a flawed interpretation, and make no attempt to defend it. Instead, you try to distract us by talking about another passage of Scripture entirely.

That's pretty lame, Agape. :down:

agape
July 14th, 2002, 09:26 AM
Originally posted by itsjustdave1988
Unfortunately, I am not an eyewitness to Christ's ministry. Therefore, I must rely upon apostolic teaching to know what Christ taught and what being Christian means. These apostles were men. So, relying upon what men said is a necessity.I rely on what the Apostles say in the Bible because God said they were moved by the Spirit. They did not privately interpret anything. They spoke or wrote what God told them to speak and write. As for the early church fathers...well...if they contradict the Apostle Peter or Paul...ect, I have to put a question mark next to Clement or Augustine or any of them. I don't go changing what's written in Bible to match what they say.

I really have no interest in the rest of what you posted because it does not prove anything and to be quite frank, I don't trust any of it. You can keep the tables too. I'll stick with the Bible. Genesis to Revelation fits perfectly together and we can have God's original Word when we take all the necessary time needed in working His Word...in doing II Timothy 2:15...so that there are no contradiction and we can have "thus saith the Lord." I believe this with all my heart and I believe Jesus Christ when he said: "For John truly baptized with water, BUT YE SHALL BE BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST NOT MANY DAYS HENCE."

There are some Christians here laughing their faces off at what both Jesus and John proclaimed concerning baptism. But that won't change the truth of God's Word. It won't change, "thus saith the Lord." And praise God it doesn't! God, Paul, Peter and others found in the Bible, never taught water baptism after the new birth became available on the day of Pentecost and following. The only reason Apollos taught water baptism was because the Word says he only knew John' baptism...BUT...Aquila and Priscilla expounded the Word to him and he believed THROUGH the grace of God and was born again. Later, Paul corrected the error or wrong teaching concerning baptism and they, the disciples in Ephesus believed and they were baptized and spoke the wonderful works of God. Therefore I don't teach we need to be water baptized and no one else should teach it either if they want to remain honest with God's Word. This is what I believe and this is where I stand.

agape
July 14th, 2002, 09:40 AM
Originally posted by Evangelion
Ummm... where does Peter say "guess what, no more water"? :) Duh...could it be when he said he remembered what Jesus said. "...BUT YE SHALL BE BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST...." In case you are having a difficult time understanding this verse, Evangelion...let me explain.

John did baptize with water but Jesus Christ told his apostles before his ascension that the day is coming...not many days hence....when you shall be baptized...NOT WITH WATER...BUT WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT. Now if you put the same kind of thinking, logic as you do with Jesus Christ is not God, to the rest of the scriptures, you might just figure it all out. ;)

Also, it might help you to understand more fully if you read and do Acts 17:11 + II Timothy 2:15 on what I had recently posted to Dave on water baptism (7-13, 8:12 pm).

Apollos
July 14th, 2002, 09:55 AM
agape -

The more you answer, the less you say. Now you sound like a parrot!

Was that an answer?

WHAT did Peter mean when he said: "Can any man forbid water..." agape's reply - Clueless!!

Anyway, I am glad you had a good hard laugh... at yourself!:D

Apollos
July 14th, 2002, 10:03 AM
The CONTEXT of Acts Chapter One – (emphasis mine)

1:1 “The former treatise I made, O Theophilus, concerning all that Jesus began both to do and to teach,
2 until the day in which he was received up, after that he had given commandment through the Holy Spirit unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
3 To whom he also showed himself alive after his passion by many proofs, appearing unto them by the space of forty days, and speaking the things concerning the kingdom of God:
4 and, being assembled together with them, he charged them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, [said he], ye heard from me:
5 For John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized in the Holy Spirit not many days hence.
6 They therefore, when they were come together, asked him, saying, Lord, dost thou at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know times or seasons, which the Father hath set within His own authority.
8 But ye shall receive power, when the Holy Spirit is come upon you: and ye shall be my witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea and Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
9 And when he had said these things, as they were looking, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they were looking stedfastly into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 who also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye looking into heaven? this Jesus, who was received up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye beheld him going into heaven.
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is nigh unto Jerusalem, a Sabbath day's journey off.” – ASV

There are those who mistakenly think that Jesus promised the baptism of the HS to each and everybody in the entire world. Those individuals, of necessity, must ignore the context of this passage.

Please allow me to invite these individuals to purvey the “former treatise” of Luke, particularly the 24th Chapter where the context is of Jesus speaking to the APOSTLES and promising them the baptism of the HS is further established.

Then comes from them the rank thinking on Mark 1:8…
“I baptized you in water; But he shall baptize you in the Holy Spirit.”

To WHOM was John speaking? Did ALL those who heard John receive HS baptism? That would be quite an assumption to make - like the assumption they make with Acts 1:5! To keep the CONTEXT of John’s remark, one can take note that John was announcing the FACT of coming HS baptism, but John was not announcing exactly WHO would get it! The WHO was later defined by Jesus Himself!

Then John 1:33 is offered. But this passage tells us only that which we already knew – that is, it would be Jesus that baptizes with the HS. But this passage also, does not tell us WHO would be receiving it. But Acts 1 and Luke 24 does tell us WHO would receive it, as already shown above in Acts 1!!

Evangelion
July 14th, 2002, 10:08 AM
Agape -


Duh...could it be

*snip*

Don't give me your "could it be"s. I'm not interested in speculation.

Peter mentions water, and he mentions baptism. He also says that these people who have already received the Holy Spirit, should now be baptised, and he makes it clear that water is necessary for this "baptism" of which he now speaks.

This would make no sense at all if (a) water baptism was no longer necessary, and (b) those who had received "Spirit baptism" did not require water baptism.

No matter which way you twist it, you can't avoid the fact that these people who had already received the Holy Spirit, were now about to be baptised in water. Tell me, Agape - why did Peter call for water? Why did he want to baptise these people in water? :)

HopeofGlory
July 14th, 2002, 12:13 PM
The so called "Great Commission" is the doctrine of men and it can not be found within the holy bible. The instructions of Christ after the cross were part of the new testament which was in force after the cross (Heb. 9:17) and are not to be confused with John the Baptist‘s testimony of water baptism for remission before the cross. It can be clearly seen that Jesus instructed the apostles to teach and that teaching will baptize all that believe. He did not command them to do the baptizing in water yet the apostles continued preaching the doctrine of the Baptist which was a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. The apostles message at Pentecost is completely void of the new testament for remission so they failed to obey these words of Christ....Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. Matt. 28:20 (KJV)

The greatest message every to be delivered to the world (Matt 26:28) was not part of the apostles doctrine at Pentecost and the silence of it is deafening.

When asked... What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? (John 6:28)
Jesus said...This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. John 6:29 (KJV)

Simple message but few even today have received it. There is no work needed but faith in the Son of God.

And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life... John 6:40 (KJV)

The message of eternal life is believe in Christ nothing more is needed unless you do not believe.

Let's look at each account before Christ ascended in what He commissioned the apostles and heed God’s warning by not "adding" the word “water”.

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: Rev. 22:18 (KJV)

This commission must be understood in the light of the “new” testament “for” remission of sins (Matt. 26:28).

The apostles were commanded to preach the word and the truth reveal in the word by the Spirit would baptize them.

For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel.... 1 Cor. 1:17 (KJV)

Why would Christ send Paul NOT to baptize if the GREAT COMMISSION was... You apostles go water baptize? There is no rhyme to this type of reasoning. Man’s doctrine teaches water baptism was commanded by Jesus in “the great commission” but this is not biblical terminology.

#1
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Matt. 28:19 (KJV)

It is clear the apostles are being instructed to teach and the teaching of the word will baptize them. The word is spirit and it is by this word we are baptized...It is the "spirit" that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life John 6:63 (KJV). The quickening of the spirit (baptism) is immediate when the words of the new testament are believed. The new testament is a new testimony with a greater witness (John 5:33-36) for remission of sins (Matt. 26:28) as opposed to the old testimony for remission (Mark 1:4).

The new testament is not a series of books starting with the four gospels but is a greater witness given by Christ and was not in force until after the death of Christ (Heb. 9:17). The apostles never baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost because this Spirit baptism is performed by Christ when we believe His words.
The contrast of the baptism in water and the baptism in the word is revealed by Jesus with these words...For John truly baptized with water; but (on the contrary) ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. Acts 1:5 (KJV)


#2
Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. Mark 16:15 (KJV)
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mark 16:16 (KJV)

Again, the teaching but also when one believes the word they are baptized by that word. This baptism (quickening) is received the moment one believes this "spirit" word of Christ and they are born again. Compare these words spoken to Nicodemus...That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit (John 3:6). Jesus delivered this eternal message to Nicodemus and to the apostles...For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life (John 3:16). Nicodemus did not believe this message and Jesus said:
We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our (Father, Son, Holy Ghost) witness. John 3:11 (KJV)
If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? John 3:12 (KJV)

This word of the gospel of Christ is spirit and life eternal in the new testament made possible only by His shed blood.

Jesus said....Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:54 (KJV)

The disciples responded....This is an hard saying; who can hear (believe) it? John 6:60 (KJV)

For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Matt. 26:28 (KJV)

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63 (KJV)

#3
Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: Luke 24:46 (KJV)
And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. Luke 24:47 (KJV)

Christ said that remission of sins would be received through His death. He did not say remission would be in water baptism. The word of the "new" testament for remission of sins must be believed. Christ is clearly explaining how remission of sins would be received and referring to Isaiah 53 where “it is written” He was to suffer. These scriptures not once mention water baptism.

#4
For John truly baptized with water; but (on the contrary) ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. Acts 1:5 (KJV)

Christ speaks of the contrast of the two baptisms and confirms it will not be in water BUT Spirit! The contrast was further revealed in that the death of Christ for remission of sins superceded water baptism....But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved. John 5:34 (KJV)
He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light. John 5:35 (KJV)
But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. John 5:36 (KJV)

By comparing scripture with scripture it is evident the commission was to preach the new testimony for sin remission and when one believes the words of this gospel of Christ they would be baptized by the Spirit. The confusion is had when men go against the warning of God and “ADD” the word “WATER” to the final words of Christ.

Jesus instructed the apostles in the "new" testament for remission of sins but because of their unbelief (Roms 11:19-21)they taught the "old" testament of water baptism for remission of sins at Pentecost. Christ Jesus did “NOT” commission the apostles to “WATER” baptize after He gave the NEW TESTAMENT for remission of sins. Paul was the first man to deliver Christ's eternal message of remission through His shed blood.

Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through """faith in his blood""", to declare his righteousness """for the remission of sins""" that are past, through the forbearance of God; Rom. 3:25 (KJV)
To declare, I say, """at this time""" his righteousness: that he might be just, and the """justifier of him which believeth in Jesus""". Rom. 3:26 (KJV)

Receive not the doctrine of men but believe the words of the Lord Jesus and receive His offer of everlasting life.

In Christ
Craig

Evangelion
July 14th, 2002, 12:31 PM
HopeOfGlory -


The so called "Great Commission" is the doctrine of men and it can't not be found within the holy bible.

Not even in Matthew 28? :)

Apollos
July 14th, 2002, 02:06 PM
Craig -

The so called "Great Commission" is the doctrine of men and it can't not be found within the holy bible. I find it in Matthew 28:18f.


The instructions of Christ… …are not to be confused with John the Baptist‘s testimony of water baptism for remission before the cross.So true! Christ authorized HIS own baptism after the cross in “the name of the F/Son/HS” which had never BEFORE been given. This was for ALL nations and we see the disciples putting this WATER baptism (by His authority) into practice throughout the book of Acts!!


yet the apostles continued preaching the doctrine of the Baptist which was a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. I see, they were under the guidance of the HS YET taught error, conflict & confusion. Often, the only way to preserve & teach error is to blame some matters on the shortcomings of Deity &/or the word of God.

The apostles message at Pentecost is completely void of the new testament for remission…Baloney! Luke 24:47 –“… repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.” Methinks you missed something BIG Craig!!

…so they failed to obey these words of Christ... Oh Craig, the HS let them down…AGAIN!!.

The greatness message every to be delivered to the world (Matt 26:28) was not part of the apostles doctrine at Pentecost and the silence of it is deafening. Oh, but it WAS indeed!! Acts 2:39 – “For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call.” The PROMISE of salvation was for ALL nations!! Although the apostles did not comprehend all that they said (which was under the direction of the HS) the HS DID know what He was doing and followed through with inerrant teaching and guidance for the apostles!! Acts 1:8 confirms this – “But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. ALL nations!! The Great Commission was under way and it was fully supported by the HS !!!


There is no work needed but faith in the Son of God. The passage you gave said nothing about “faith only”. And “faith” is a comprehensive word in most applications of the Bible. “Faith” involves more than mental ascent or just mental acceptance. (Btw, where does repentance and confession fit in for you?? You should take heed to NOT ADD the word “only” with faith!!))

This commission must be understood in the light of the “new” testament “for” remission of sins (Matt. 26:28).Accurately put, Jesus’ blood made possible the ratification of a new covenant by which remission of sins was made possible.


For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel.... 1 Cor. 1:17 (KJV) But Paul DID baptize people, including the Corinthians, the Ephesians, Lydia, and even the jailor. And Apollos (my favorite!) and Cephas were baptizing people too! Oh yes, and Philip was baptizing people also!! You think so many under the direction HS were in error??? Hardly! They were following the GREAT COMMISSION !!!

Matthew 28:19 - “Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit:
20 teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.”

The Great Commission – It is for everybody, everywhere, TODAY !!!

Kevin
July 14th, 2002, 02:32 PM
Agape,


Give it a rest Kevin, you are just making yourself look more and more ridiculous every time.

That's the pathetic part... you don't realize that it's your logic that is being made to look ridiculous, because it is.

Try going up to some people and tell them that you are going to tell them something "with the mouth", and then say absolutely nothing with your mouth, and see what kind of reaction you get. I doubt you would do this, because you know perfectly well that you would look like a fool.

I point out these examples in an attempt to show just how pathetic your logic is, and that we are seeing nothing more than pride. This is proven by the fact that you don't answer my simple questions. You can't do so without destroying your ridiculous "with the mouth actually mean inward - not using the mouth" theory. How pitiful.

Kevin
July 14th, 2002, 02:46 PM
c.moore,


Quote Agape: Give it a rest Kevin, you are just making yourself look more and more ridiculous every time.

Quote c.moore

Your right Agape.

Kev shakes his head in disbelief...

Please tell me, c.moore, that you don't actually believe that one can do something "with the mouth" without actually using the mouth, do you?

Kevin
July 14th, 2002, 03:47 PM
Agape,


Yup, the same thing (miraculous abilities) happened to the people in Numbers too.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Big difference from OT to NT. To receive the spirit upon them temporarily can't be compared to the receiving God's Spirit permanently, to be saved, born again and have eternal life.

I realize the OT and NT are obviously different. But the Spirit spoken of is the SAME and the results were the SAME (miraculous abilities), which doesn't put anybody into Chrst, which is why Peter commanded baptism AFTER the HS had already fallen upon the Gentiles.


That didn't put them into Christ. The fact is, if the falling of the HS, which gave the Gentiles the ability to speak in tongues, is what put them into Christ, then there would be no need for Peter to command baptism in the name of the Lord after already being baptized by the Spirit, but he DID.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No he DID NOT.

Yes HE DID. Philip baptized eunuch in water after being preached Jesus, and there would be NO reason whatsoever for Peter to do it any differently after preaching Jesus to the Gentiles!


They never touched water.

No evidence.


They were born again as Peter was teaching them the Christ, the Messiah, their Lord and Savior. When Peter heard them speak in tongues

If they were born again as a result of the HS falling upon them, then why did Peter command baptism in the name of the Lord AFTER the the HS had already fallen upon them?!
Because they were NOT born again, that's why.


Acts 10:47-48
Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have recieved the Holy Spirit just as we have?

It is not speaking of water baptism. The subject never even came up.

Can anyone forbid WATER that these should not be _________. The subject of water baptism came up alright, and it's clear as day to people who have logic that understands that doing something "with the mouth" means that is uses the mouth. If you can't grasp that, then how can you possibly grasp Acts 10:47? Your "PI" won't allow you to see what is plainly written - baptism in water in the name of the Lord. Nor will your "PI" allow you to connect this to the recorded example of the baptism of the eunuch, which also used water.


Peter said can any man forbid water. Where's water baptism even mentioned.

Perhaps if you didn't cut Peter's words off, you could answer your own question. Peter said "Can anyone forbid water (now keep reading) that these should not be BAPTIZED who had recieved the Holy Spirit just as we have?"


Acts 11:15-17:
And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as [he did] unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

Peter, being a Jew, said this because who was he to deny baptism to the Gentiles after witnessing the fact that the HS had been poured out onto the Gentiles? Why do you think the Jews were "astonished" in Acts 10:45? Because the gift of the HS had been poured out onto the Gentiles. This was proof to the Peter and the other Jews that God also had a relationship with the Gentiles now.

So, not to withstand God, Peter turned to the Jews and asked the question "Who can forbid WATER that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" Why do you think he said "Can anyone forbid..."?


Peter preached the Word to Cornelius and his household and while he preached, they were baptized with the holy spirit and spoke with tongues.

But why did Peter command baptism AFTER this event had already taken place?


If you are going to argue that the falling of the HS is what put them into Christ in Acts 10:44, then, to be consistent, you must also say that it put the people in Numbers into Christ, which is impossible.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Exactly my point...impossible because in Numbers, they were not born again...they were NOT BAPTIZED IN THE HOLY SPIRIT AT ALL. And since when is the NT suppose to be consistent with the OT?? There is no comparison to be made with what occurred in Numbers with what occurred in Acts. Keep Numbers where it belongs...in the OT.

Again, I realize the OT and NT are two totally different dispensations. But the Spirit in those two dispensations is the SAME Spirit and it had the SAME effect upon both parties (miraculous abilities).


The same thing happened by the same spirit to both parties.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Only in the false "written word by Kevin." What occured in Numbers is not the same thing that occurred with Cornelius and his household...so again, leave Numbers, OT, out altogether because it does not tie in with the new birth at all.

The effect in Numbers was the ability to prophecy. The effect in Acts was the speaking in tongues. Are not both of these miraculous abilities? YES. Are not both of these instances a result of the SAME Spirit resting upon their heads? YES.


The baptism which puts us into Christ is the one commanded at the Great Commission
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To be found only in Kevin's newly written bible.

Actually, it's written in Matt. 28:19-20. Are you saying that Christ commanded a baptism that wouldn't put a person into Himself? LOL! Here we have another example of your ridiculous logic.


Jesus is simply saying that one must be born again of the Spirit in order to enter into the kingdom of God. He DID NOT SAY one must be water baptized. The water is referring to first natural birth...the physical human birth.

More ridiculous reasoning on your part. The question at hand is "How can one be born again". This question requires the answer is relevent to being born again - after already being born from the womb! We are born of the womb the FIST time, which as nothing to do with being born AGAIN - AFTER THE womb!


It was the eunuch's idea alone to be water baptized as they came across water.

You make this too easy for me. Just where do you think the eunuch got the idea from? From Philip, who just finished preaching Jesus to him!!! This is more evidence to show that water baptism was practiced. The eunuch was WATER baptized as a direct result of Philip's teaching, which falls right in line with the baptism that Jesus commanded of all nations. Why would Philip practice any other baptism but the one that Jesus commanded? He wouldn't.

agape
July 14th, 2002, 04:19 PM
Originally posted by Evangelion
Agape -
*snip*

Don't give me your "could it be"s. I'm not interested in speculation.Oh *SNIP*yourself...LOL. If you are not interested in speculation, then why do you give it??

Peter mentions water, and he mentions baptism. He also says that these people who have already received the Holy Spirit, should now be baptisedNO, HE DOES NOT SAY THIS.

he makes it clear that water is necessary for this "baptism" of which he now speaks.No he absolutely "DOES NOT MAKE THIS CLEAR." Are you reading Kevin's make-believe Bible?

Remember, we need to remain within the context and remoter context which includes Acts 11 and not to single out a word or verse and zoom in only on them. I know you know this is a principle in working the Word in order to make an accurate conclusion. So let's not play dumb. Don't you think it odd that Peter's response to those who were amazed that the Gentiles were baptized with the holy spirit and heard them speak in tongues, was "don't hinder them from water should mean water baptism?" Why should they even be water baptized AFTER they received the gift of holy spirit? Did water add to their being born again, saved and having eternal life? Did water add to the fullness of Christ in them, the hope of glory? Are you thinking, Evangelion??

As I have already stated: Peter responded with what was necessary to the reaction of those Judean believers who were with him: why are you so bewildered?? Surely none of you circumcised people, nor I myself, have the able power to hinder or block the water (spiritual water which is holy spirit-life) to cause these Gentiles to not be baptized in holy spirit? Are we going to hinder the purposes of God from these people - these people of the Gentile background whom we can hear speaking with tongues which is proof that they have received the same holy spirit-life and they now are able to manifest the promise of the Father which the Lord Jesus Christ foretold about, are we? No, of course we are not able to hinder God's will. According to Acts 11, while conveying to the believers in Jerusalem, he states:

Acts 11:15-17 - "And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; BUT ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as [he did] unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?"

He saw what Christ taught come to pass even for the Gentiles which is what the context is all about. Not being a respecter of people or nations. Even the Gentiles should be recipients to the new birth which is spirit baptism. So put chapter 10 & 11 together, Evangelion and you have the explanation to verses 47 and 48.

Water does not alway refer to water baptism...it is also referred to "spiritual water" or "living water." And, since the context is on the Gentiles being baptized with the holy spirit and manifesting that gift which they received, "spiritual water," which is holy-spirit life, fits in perfectly. If not, then the word "water" is a forgery altogether...which is very possible since, if it is as you say (water baptism), would be an illogical answer to give to the circumcised believers who were bewildered because the Gentiles too received the gift of holy spirit.

Acts 10:44-46:
While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, [apokrinomai - to give an answer to a question proposed, to answer; to begin to speak, but always where something has preceded (either said or done) to which the remarks refer]. What preceded was not "water baptism" but that those who were with him were bewildered that they heard the Gentiles speak with tongues and manify God.

Verse 48 - He arranged towards them (God put or set in order, as verse 33; "Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God.") towards these Gentiles to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. "To be baptized" referred to their being immersed and surrounded within the name of Jesus Christ, not the name of Peter and not in physical water.

Peter did not disobey the commandment from Christ by having them water baptized because he knew what Jesus said to him not too long ago which was BUT YE SHALL BE BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST NOT MANY DAYS HENCE." Then Cornelius and his household asked him to stay a little while longer. So simple, no contradictions and all flows perfectly together. So now who is doing the speculating? Certainly not me, which then leaves you. :D

This would make no sense at all if (a) water baptism was no longer necessary, and (b) those who had received "Spirit baptism" did not require water baptism.It does not make any sense since Jesus told Peter BUT YE SHALL BE BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST NOT MANY DAYS HENCE." This is why "water" here is not "water baptizm or John's baptism of water."

No matter which way you twist it, Evangelion, you cannot avoid that Peter remembered "thus saith the Lord,"...BUT YE SHALL BE BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST NOT MANY DAYS HENCE and one cannot avoid this fact.

Seems like the water people only like to look at the first part of Acts 1:5 "For John truly baptized with water...." And avoid "BUT YE SHALL BE BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST...." I wonder why that is?? Totally illogical. :D

agape
July 14th, 2002, 04:34 PM
Evangelion,

I would like for you to explain how after someone is born again through spirit baptism, has received the fullness of God in Christ in him...Christ in him the hope of glory...has eternal life and all the spiritual blessings that come with it would still need to be dunked in H2O? What do they receive that adds or goes beyond spirit baptism. What profit is there?

Thanks in advance. ;)

itsjustdave1988
July 14th, 2002, 05:16 PM
So agape wants only to provide commentary to the Bible without ever reading commentary ... especially early church commentary on the Bible.

Agape said:

As for the early church fathers...well...if they contradict the Apostle Peter or Paul...ect, I have to put a question mark next to Clement or Augustine or any of them. I don't go changing what's written in Bible to match what they say.
/[QUOTE]

They don't contradict what the apostles taught. They contradict Agape's flawed re-interpretation of what the apostles' teach.

Agape said:
[QUOTE]
I really have no interest in the rest of what you posted because it does not prove anything and to be quite frank, I don't trust any of it. You can keep the tables too. I'll stick with the Bible. Genesis to Revelation fits perfectly together


Genesis thru Revelations fit perfectly together if you include the deuterocanonical OT books of the original 4th century canon ... which I doubt you do.

Good luck Agape ... I hope your don't fall into more error.

Dave

HopeofGlory
July 14th, 2002, 07:28 PM
Apollos -

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The so called "Great Commission" is the doctrine of men and it can't not be found within the holy bible.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I find it in Matthew 28:18f.

No, it is not there! Notice Jesus said that "all" power had been given to Him in heaven and earth being this was after His death for remission of sins (see Heb (:16). This in effect replaced the old testimony of remission delivered by the Baptist (Mark 1:4).

Respond to my post on eternal life point by point if you wish to honestly debate this subject.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The instructions of Christ… …are not to be confused with John the Baptist‘s testimony of water baptism for remission before the cross.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So true! Christ authorized HIS own baptism after the cross in “the name of the F/Son/HS” which had never BEFORE been given. This was for ALL nations and we see the disciples putting this WATER baptism (by His authority) into practice throughout the book of Acts!!

Christ did authorize His own baptism (Acts 1:5).

The apostles never baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost because it was not possible for them to do it because all power had been give to Christ. Before the cross the apostles were given power to remit sins (John 20:23) but it was temporary remission that required endurance to the end of their faith yet new testament remission is eternal remission bought by the blood of Christ that fadeth not away. Christ never authorized a "new" water baptism but He did authorize a "new" testament with a greater witness than the Baptist (John 5:36) and that witness was His death on the cross for remission of sins. Where in scripture can we find your "new" water baptism???

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
yet the apostles continued preaching the doctrine of the Baptist which was a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I see, they were under the guidance of the HS YET taught error, conflict & confusion. Often, the only way to preserve & teach error is to blame some matters on the shortcomings of Deity &/or the word of God.
God is not the author of confusion, men are and apostles were men not God. Christ died to remove the law yet Peter continued therein well after Pentecost.

Jesus said... the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. John 14:26 (KJV)

This was progressively revealed and continued well after Pentecost. Peter did not deliever the "new" testament at Pentecost and when he was sent to Cornelius his spoke words... "it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation"... this is in direct opposition to the instructions given by Christ and proves his lack of understanding at Pentecost. Simple to see that Peter required futher teaching by the Holy Ghost.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The apostles message at Pentecost is completely void of the new testament for remission…
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Baloney! Luke 24:47 –“… repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.” Methinks you missed something BIG Craig!!
One must understand a message before it can be delivered!
Peter believed remission was in water baptism and it is evident he did not preach the cross for remission. Not one word about a "new" testament, Christ died for your sins, or faith in the shed blood of Christ for remission of sins. Peter preached a baptism of repentance for remission of sins (Acts 2:38) as taught by the Baptist (Mark 1:4). Not one word about a "new" water baptism or anything at all about a greater witness than John to mention a few. The apostles could not see the rightousness of God in Christ because it was veiled (2 Cor 3:13) by their belief in the old testament for remission. Repentance and remission was taught by the Baptist (Mark 1:4) before the new testament was effectual and Jesus said He had a greater witness (John 5:36) than that of the Baptist. His greater witness was the blood of the cross and if we have faith in it we receive eternal remission. Old testament remission was temporary and required a yearly sacrifice yet Christ died once for our sins and there remaineth no more sacrifice. If we sin after salvation we can only look back to the cross and praise God for once His blood is applied for remission to the true believer it remains eternally.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
…so they failed to obey these words of Christ...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh Craig, the HS let them down…AGAIN!!.
No Apollos, the apostles let the Holy Spirit down, big difference.
The branches were broken off and Paul was called. Paul was the first apostle to deliver the "new" testament for remission

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The greatness message every to be delivered to the world (Matt 26:28) was not part of the apostles doctrine at Pentecost and the silence of it is deafening.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh, but it WAS indeed!! Acts 2:39 – “For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call.” The PROMISE of salvation was for ALL nations!! Although the apostles did not comprehend all that they said (which was under the direction of the HS) the HS DID know what He was doing and followed through with inerrant teaching and guidance for the apostles!! Acts 1:8 confirms this – “But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. ALL nations!! The Great Commission was under way and it was fully supported by the HS !!!

See my post about things of the kingdom on page 126 and I will bedate with you if you like.

Yes, Peter proclaimed the promise yet it was not received (2Peter 3:9-10). Peter believed Jesus would return to them (2Pet 2:4) at Pentecost and deliver the promises. God has not cast away these believers (He has saved them) and He will graft them in again (Rom 11). Yes the Holy Spirit always knows what to do and that is why Paul was called.

At Pentecost they receive power to do miracles so the People would believe they were of God and their calling was to reveal that Jesus was the Christ. The Baptist's calling was to manifest Jesus through water baptism (John 1:31) and this manifestation continued at Pentecost. Israel as a whole did not believe that Jesus was the Christ therefore they had to "repent" and believe that He was.

Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Acts 2:36 (KJV)
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Acts 2:37 (KJV)
Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:38 (KJV)

Water baptism at Pentecost manifested that Jesus was Christ to Israel and without this understanding His death would have been in vain.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is no work needed but faith in the Son of God.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The passage you gave said nothing about “faith only”. And “faith” is a comprehensive word in most applications of the Bible. “Faith” involves more than mental ascent or just mental acceptance. (Btw, where does repentance and confession fit in for you?? You should take heed to NOT ADD the word “only” with faith!!))

The Great Commission – It is for everybody, everywhere, TODAY !!!

Nowhere in the scriptures will you find a "GREAT COMMISSION" and it is nothing but a man made doctrine.

I have no problems with faith only because I was saved without water baptism and my relastionship with my Father is base on His uncondition love for me without any requirements on my part but faith in the death for His Son for all my sins. I lie not, I am a sinner saved by the grace of God without works. I obey Him because He loves me and I do not fear judgement because I will be judged not by my righteousness but by the righteousness of God. I have pased through the veil into His presence and I am seated in Christ at the right hand of God and Christ will not be cast down. Amen and Amen.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This commission must be understood in the light of the “new” testament “for” remission of sins (Matt. 26:28).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Accurately put, Jesus’ blood made possible the ratification of a new covenant by which remission of sins was made possible.

Apollos, Jesus never commanded "water" baptism and He most assuredly did not command a "new" water baptism. Jesus did deliver a "new testament" for remission of sins and is wasn't in water but blood.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel.... 1 Cor. 1:17 (KJV)
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But Paul DID baptize people, including the Corinthians, the Ephesians, Lydia, and even the jailor. And Apollos (my favorite!) and Cephas were baptizing people too! Oh yes, and Philip was baptizing people also!! You think so many under the direction HS were in error??? Hardly! They were following the GREAT COMMISSION !!!
It is not hard to understand that Paul was not comissioned to water baptize. He said... Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 1 Cor. 1:17 (KJV)

Question. If the so called Great Comission to apostles was to water baptize, tell us why Paul was sent not to baptize and please provide you proof text.

Matthew 28:19 - “Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit:
20 teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.”

If you want a clear understanding of these scriptures please read all the spoken words of Christ before He ascended. See my post about eternal life on page 138.

Go teach thus baptizing with the words about eternal life that I gave you. These words are spirit and the words will quicken (baptize) all that believe (John 6:63) (Matt 26:28) (John 6:54).

In Christ
Craig

drbrumley
July 14th, 2002, 07:51 PM
Apollos,


Why did you not answer the questions I requested from your statement of faith?

I apologize for not seeing this earlier.


Why did you not tell us WHAT it involves for man to “ACCEPT” Jesus ???

See above.


My guess is that you did not want to take the time to “explain away” why “accepting” Jesus “looks” like it involves “works”, but (in your view) it really isn’t “works”. Well?

Assuming is very noble of you Apollos.


Instead, we got a “cut&paste” from Bob Hill.

Like I said, I didn't see it.

I will respond to your objections to Bob Hill's Thesis in a moment, but first to answer you direct questions on my "statement of faith."


What does it mean for man to ACCEPT Jesus Christ???

To accept Jesus Christ is to have a confident conviction that He is who the Bible says He is and that He keeps His promises.


WHAT does this involve??? Hmmm???

By placing our trust in Him, we enter into a personal and eternal relationship with the Son of God.


Later under subsection A - it mentions repentance. Does this repentance come BEFORE or AFTER the sinner receives salvation?

It is a change of heart wrought by the Holy Spirit through conviction of sin, to which the sinner responds in repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. (Statement of Faith, Section 4, subsection A)

Meaning that the first step is that the Holy Spirit testifys of Jesus to you. Here you either accept or reject the testimony of the Holy Spirit.In which you are convicted of sin and the YOU respond by Repenting of your sins and put your Faith in the Lord Jesus. Then you become saved. So in answer to your quesion, Repentance is Before you become saved.

c.moore
July 15th, 2002, 02:39 AM
Originally posted by Kevin
c.moore,



Kev shakes his head in disbelief...

Please tell me, c.moore, that you don't actually believe that one can do something "with the mouth" without actually using the mouth, do you?




Ro:10:9: That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved Ro:10:10: For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

I just believe the Word of God study the above!

Let God bless you

drbrumley
July 15th, 2002, 02:58 AM
cmoore, nice avatar

good to see you get one. LOL!

Apollos
July 15th, 2002, 10:05 AM
The GREAT COMMISSION continues…

Because of what the Great Commission contains, I often wonder if those who say it’s “not there”, or that it was never “acted upon”, think we should preach the gospel to the entire world.

No, it is not there [in Matthew 28:18f]! Notice Jesus said that "all" power had been given to Him in heaven and earth being this was after His death for remission of sins (see Heb (:16). This in effect replaced the old testimony of remission delivered by the Baptist (Mark 1:4). I agree! In fact, that ALL authority was given to Christ “replaced” EVERYTHING before this time in religion. This changed everything! It was at this point that Jesus had ALL say in religious matters. It was at this time that Jesus gave a NEW baptism for the WHOLE creation which was into the “name of the F/Son/HS”. It was new, Jesus had all authority to institute a new baptism (water), and He did just that by His authority. We see in Acts where the disciples took this commission and baptism to the entire world !!


Christ did authorize His own baptism (Acts 1:5). No He did not! Christ “authorized” nothing here in Acts 1:5. But He did PROMISE to send the HS to the APOSTLES only, as Luke recorded earlier in Luke 24 – to the apostles! HS baptism is NOT authorized, it is not for remission of sins, it is not for salvation, and Jesus never told any disciple to baptize another with HS baptism!

The baptism Jesus authorized in Matthew 28:18f was in water (Acts 10:47) and it was for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38). Stop confusing the authorized baptism of Jesus (in the name of Jesus Christ) with the baptism of John. They are TWO different animals!!

The apostles never baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost…Yes they did! This baptism “in the name of Jesus” or “by His authority” as found in the commission of Matthew 28:18f is mentioned specifically by name in Acts 2:38, 8:16, 10:48, and 19:5.

He did authorize a "new" testament with a greater witness than the Baptist… More accurately, the blood of Jesus ratified (validated) a new testament. In that new testament Christ authorizes what He wants man to do in religion. Christ has ALL authority, so He can dictate as He pleases. That Jesus is “greater” than John is a given as John came to prepare the way of the Lord.


This was progressively revealed [John 14:26] and continued well after Pentecost. … …Simple to see that Peter required futher teaching by the Holy Ghost. I agree that revelation was progressive and I agree that the apostles did not understand everything all at once, even including some of the things they were teaching. BUT – and this is crux – the HS was guiding them and the HS did NOT allow them to 1.) Teach error –or- 2.) Practice error in religion.

You want to claim that some continued to practice John’s baptism (without proof) and other such when this would indicate that the HS was allowing error in their religious teaching & practice. This the HS would not/could not allow or do!


One must understand a message before it can be delivered! Not so! With the HS guiding the apostles, they could “deliver” ANY message the HS guided them to deliver. See Acts 2:39.


Repentance and remission was taught by the Baptist (Mark 1:4) before the new testament was effectual…As previously stated John came to prepare the way of the Lord. What John taught was PREPARATORY. Jesus died and His blood validated the NT by which remission was made actual. And in Luke 24:47, repentance & remission would be preached FIRST in His name from Jerusalem - unto all nations. (Love that G.C. !) IN HIS NAME – by His authority – and this FIRST in Jerusalem – Acts 2 !!


Paul was the first apostle to deliver the "new" testament for remission… This is a clear and direct contradiction of Luke 24:47 !


Peter proclaimed the promise yet it was not received (2Peter 3:9-10).Yes it was – see Acts 2:38-41 – especially verse 41 – and it was for everyone! (The passage you posted here proves nothing.)


Water baptism at Pentecost manifested that Jesus was Christ to Israel… How did water baptism reveal Jesus as the Christ to Israel ????? If this was a continuance of John’s baptism as you claim, then Jesus must have already been revealed to Israel when John administered his baptism. This is conflicting thought!!


Nowhere in the scriptures will you find a "GREAT COMMISSION" and it is nothing but a man made doctrine. The title is man made, just as the title for Matthew 7:12, “the Golden Rule”. So what?

But the doctrine… to go, teach all nations, baptize them by Christ’s authority, and observe all things He commanded… Now that’s a great commission for all men !!!


I have no problems with faith only because I was saved without water baptism…You just think you were.


…my relastionship with my Father is base on His uncondition love for me without any requirements on my part but faith…You did not answer me – Did repentance and confession have a part in your being saved? Where do these fit in???


Jesus did deliver a "new testament" for remission of sins and is wasn't in water but blood. The NT ratified by the blood of Jesus makes possible the remission of sins. Jesus’ blood was shed in His death on the cross to procure our salvation. We are baptized into His death with water baptism to procure our salvation.


It is not hard to understand that Paul was not comissioned to water baptizeOh, but he WAS – ALL disciples are!! That is why he BAPTIZED so many people!! My proof texts are as given before - the Corinthians, the Ephesians, Lydia, and even the jailor. Add to the list 1 Cor 6:11, Ephesians 5:26, and Titus 3:5.

Craig, you continue to struggle with this & misunderstand this passage (1 Cor. 1:17) in light of the overwhelming evidence that shows Paul’s teaching & practice was to baptize in WATER!! Your beliefs conflict with what Paul was doing. You need to CHANGE your beliefs because the scriptures are not going to !!.


Go teach thus baptizing with the words… …and the words will quicken (baptize)…Craig, both of these examples here are given to show how disingenuous you are being in attempting to wrest scriptures over to your bias in teaching. People are not baptized in words, and “quicken” does not mean the same as baptize. You need a good self-examination and an honesty check. No one is going to believe this dribble an I expect better from you!!


Matthew 28:19 - “Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit:
20 teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.”

Isn’t it just great ?!!

Evangelion
July 15th, 2002, 10:34 AM
Agape -


I would like for you to explain how after someone is born again through spirit baptism, has received the fullness of God in Christ in him...Christ in him the hope of glory...has eternal life and all the spiritual blessings that come with it would still need to be dunked in H2O? What do they receive that adds or goes beyond spirit baptism. What profit is there?

Your question is misguided. It doesn't even address my soteriological model. Here's why...

Firstly, I don't believe that "salvation" is an instant event which occurs on the spot. Secondly, I don't believe that anyone "has eternal life" for sure unless God personally informs them that this is the case. (We're gpong to be judged by Christ, you know...) Thirdly, I see nothing in Scripture which suggests that the Holy Spirit bestows the long list of blessings to which you refer. Fourthly, nobody's exaplained why Peter called for water, in order to baptise people who had already received the Holy Spirit.

agape
July 15th, 2002, 11:03 AM
Originally posted by Evangelion
Agape -



Your question is misguided. It doesn't even address my soteriological model. Here's why...

Firstly, I don't believe that "salvation" is an instant event which occurs on the spot. Secondly, I don't believe that anyone "has eternal life" for sure unless God personally informs them that this is the case. (We're gpong to be judged by Christ, you know...) Thirdly, I see nothing in Scripture which suggests that the Holy Spirit bestows the long list of blessings to which you refer. Fourthly, nobody's exaplained why Peter called for water, in order to baptise people who had already received the Holy Spirit. So what you are saying is that you don't believe the scriptures. Prove we do not have salvation now and prove we do not have eternal life for sure. Your answer to why of water baptism after spirit baptism is quite pathetic.

Evangelion
July 15th, 2002, 11:26 AM
See? You dodge my answer, and throw up a new set of questions! :rolleyes: What's the point of debating you, if you're never going to stick to the point?

If you won't give me answers to my questions, what makes you think I'll be so keen to answer yours?

agape
July 15th, 2002, 11:55 AM
Originally posted by Evangelion
See? You dodge my answer, and throw up a new set of questions! :rolleyes: What's the point of debating you, if you're never going to stick to the point?

If you won't give me answers to my questions, what makes you think I'll be so keen to answer yours? Oh baloney Evangelion. I'm not dodging anything and you know it. I've responded every time. IYou're the one dodging my question, which I asked you in the first place because you don't have the answers.. :rolleyes:

drbrumley
July 15th, 2002, 12:38 PM
Apollos,

Since you want to ridicule dispensationalism, how about join in This Forum (http://www.theologyonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1653) And we will have a go at it. Evan is trying but not doing a very good job. You might be able to help him.:up:

Apollos
July 15th, 2002, 02:03 PM
Dr.B –
Thank you for your response. I appreciate the straight-forward style in which you presented your information.

To accept Jesus Christ is to…
-have a confident conviction…
-placing our trust in Him…
-…a change of heart… …the sinner responds in repentance
-accept or reject the testimony of the Holy Spirit.
-In which you are convicted of sin and
-then YOU respond by Repenting of your sins (Repentance is Before you become saved) and
-put your Faith in the Lord Jesus.

Then you become saved.

These are the “points” presented in your last post. It is important to take note of these because you have claimed previously that salvation is by “faith only”. I must say that from what you have presented, you do not believe in “faith only” either.

To “accept” Jesus (or to be saved) you require:

-mental recognition of the facts (receive & accept testimony)
-trust…
-confidence
-conviction
-respond
-repent

After all of these are done/accomplished you say - “Then you become saved”. I am not sure though when you think man reaches the point at which he becomes saved but we now know what you require.

You see Dr.B, ALL of these are things that a man MUST DO (according to you) in order to appropriate the salvation God offers by His grace to man.

Unless I am totally mistaken, the sum of all of these points is MORE than what you and others have been attempting to define as “faith ONLY” (or more accurately “belief only”). You have your man going through quite a list of things to do before you get him saved.

.As I have said before, unless you are a true Calvinist, no one believes in “faith only”. Everyone believes that man must do something to be saved and everyone has a list of “things required” of man to do before he reaches the point when he is saved. I showed you your list above. I hope you can see that we both have a LIST, but mine differs from yours.

I think you are afraid to say that man must do something. You certainly have yours doing quite a lot. But because there is so much bad and false teaching on “works” and the types of works , too many have accepted the false notion of “faith only” and that there is nothing for man to do to appropriate salvation from God.

So I wish that you, and the other “faith only” types here in this thread would realize that ALL OF YOU require man to do some things to obtain salvation, but you are just afraid to admit it! The saved are separated from the lost by what they DO !

What does it take for a man to become saved? It takes what God requires of him to do. Here is my list:

-Man must HEAR God’s word and BELIEVE it – Romans 10:17.
-Man must REPENT of his sins. – Acts 17:30
-Man must CONFESS Jesus as the Son of God. – Romans 10:10 And culmatively…
-Man must be water BAPTIZED into Christ! – Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38,41, Gal. 3:27

It may depend on how you look at it, but my list is shorter than YOURS !!!

Evangelion
July 15th, 2002, 02:15 PM
Yeah, come on over, Apollos. He's doing fine! I get an average of one answer a week. :rolleyes: Oh yeah, he's all over me. I can barely handle the pressure! ;)

Hey, drbrumley - got an answer for the circumcision question yet? And would you care to explain why different dispensationalists keep coming up with a different number of dispensations? Or why it is that Dispensationalism didn't exist before Darby came along? :p

drbrumley
July 15th, 2002, 02:43 PM
Evangelion,


I get an average of one answer a week. Oh yeah, he's all over me. I can barely handle the pressure!

LOL! It's all in fun.


got an answer for the circumcision question yet?

Dont worry mate'.


And would you care to explain why different dispensationalists keep coming up with a different number of dispensations?

Same reason all these debates on this forum are raging.


Or why it is that Dispensationalism didn't exist before Darby came along?

Is that a joke? I want some references to that. I know it is promoted as that, but there is no validity to it. Darby taught it yes and in away he brought it back to the forefront. But to say it orginated with darby is quite inaccurate. Evidence Please.

Zakath
July 15th, 2002, 02:47 PM
Ah, ah, ah, drbrumley! You should know better than to try to get someone to prove a negative! ;)

You've, in essence, asked Ev. to prove that nobody taught dispensationalism before Darby.

:rolleyes:

drbrumley
July 15th, 2002, 02:51 PM
Zakath,

Well, what have we done to be honored by your presence?
Oh wait, does your post even exist?

Evangelion
July 15th, 2002, 02:56 PM
ROTFL! He has, too! What a cheeky little devil, eh? ;)

drbrumley, I hate to be the one to tell you, but it's a simple fact of life that Dispy-ism did not exist before Darby came along.

You can lean more about the history of Dispy-ism and Darby (the Original Dispy) right here. (http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/full.asp?ID=174) :)

Evangelion
July 15th, 2002, 02:58 PM
Oooh, I've just found a series of articles on Dispy-ism at the same Website!

You can view 'em at your leisure right here. (http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/dispensationalism/) :D

Time for bed. Look forward to hearing from you tomorrow! :up:

agape
July 15th, 2002, 02:59 PM
Originally posted by Apollos


What does it take for a man to become saved? It takes what God requires of him to do. Here is my list:
[color=blue][b]
-Man must HEAR God’s word and BELIEVE it – Romans 10:17.
Correct

-Man must REPENT of his sins. – Acts 17:30

Correct - repentance means to confess our Savior from sins.

-Man must CONFESS Jesus as the Son of God. – Romans 10:10

Man must confess and believe Jesus Christ died for their sins and that God raised him from the dead. At that moment he/she is born again of God's Spirit and has eternal life.

And culmatively…

-Man must be water BAPTIZED into Christ! – Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38,41, Gal. 3:27

INCORRECT...man's private interpretation only..

Jesus said one must be born again of God's Spirit to be saved and to have entrance into the Kingdom of God. To be born of God's Spirit is to be BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST...He did not say one must be water baptized into Christ because that is not the truth and cannot possibly occur. No one can be "water baptized "into" Christ. That statement does not even exist in the Scriptures.

Evangelion
July 15th, 2002, 03:03 PM
OK, I admit it - I couldn't resist! :o

Here's another one (from the same Website), for drbrumley -

What is indisputably, absolutely, and uncompromisingly essential to the Christian religion is its doctrine of salvation...

If Dispensationalism has actually departed from the only way of salvation which the Christian religion teaches, then we must say it has departed from Christianity. No matter how many other important truths it proclaims, it cannot be called Christian if it empties Christianity of its essential message. We define a cult as a religion which claims to be Christian while emptying Christianity of that which is essential to it. If Dispensationalism does this, then Dispensationalism is a cult and not a branch of the Christian church. It is as serious as that. It is impossible to exaggerate the gravity of the situation.
John H. Gershner - Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth.

The plot thickens! :) (Oooh, those nasty, cultic Dispys! Whatever will they think of next?!) ;)

Apollos
July 15th, 2002, 03:57 PM
agape –

Finally you admit that man must do something to obtain the salvation God offers by His grace. Now all we have to do is determine which things are essential, which is what you have begun to do. Given your temperament, this is progress!!

I have you down (from your last post) that man must repent and confess. Now of course, man must hear and believe before he can repent and confess (this is axiomatic), so I now have you down for (your list is):

Hear / Believe / Repent / Confess / ….

See, we are 80% in AGREEMENT. I knew you did not believe in that “faith only” foolishness.

So that brings us to WHICH baptism is required. Once you learn that it is WATER baptism and not Spirit baptism that it required for salvation, you will be 100% !!! I am encouraged for you!!!


Jesus said one must be born again of God's Spirit to be saved… Oh agape!! I am so disappointed that you would SUBTRACT from God’s word! The passage (John 3:5) plainly tells us that TWO agents are required – WATER and the Spirit! Why would you leave WATER out of the passage? God didn’t!! (I think I see an agenda here…)


To be born of God's Spirit is to be BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST... Not again!! Twice in your last post you leave off part of God’s word!! Now agape, you need to pay attention to what God is saying in John 3:5. You know Peter tells us in 1 Peter 1:23 that we are “born again” through the word. The word in John 3:5 tells us it takes WATER and SPIRIT. Trying to be saved by just ONE agent is cheating God, makes Him a liar, and is only 50% at best. God needs 100% from us. 100% = WATER –and- Spirit.

Paul tells us in Ephesians 5:26 and in Titus 3:5 that WATER and Spirit are involved and are necessary for salvation.

We are nearly there agape. Don’’t “dry-up” on me now!!

itsjustdave1988
July 15th, 2002, 05:15 PM
Agape said:


Why should they even be water baptized AFTER they received the gift of holy spirit? Did water add to their being born again, saved and having eternal life? Did water add to the fullness of Christ in them, the hope of glory?


Your confusion may be due to a flawed salvation theology. There’s no assurance of salvation after Baptism. The Apostle Paul teaches us to have hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ. That we should work out our salvation in fear and trembling.

Baptism is the beginning of a faith journey, which ends (hopefully) in salvation. But I can always fall from God's grace.

Why the water then? Answre: Santifying grace. Peter was a Church-man. His Church had Sacraments. Water Baptism is a Sacrament which is the means of receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit, which is Santifying Grace.

But didn’t they receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Santifying Grace) already? Sure. What’s wrong with more of God’s Grace?

Dave

itsjustdave1988
July 15th, 2002, 05:18 PM
Agape said:


As I have already stated: Peter responded with what was necessary to the reaction of those Judean believers who were with him: why are you so bewildered?? Surely none of you circumcised people, nor I myself, have the able power to hinder or block the water (spiritual water which is holy spirit-life) to cause these Gentiles to not be baptized in holy spirit? Are we going to hinder the purposes of God from these people - these people of the Gentile background whom we can hear speaking with tongues which is proof that they have received the same holy spirit-life and they now are able to manifest the promise of the Father which the Lord Jesus Christ foretold about, are we? No, of course we are not able to hinder God's will.


Wow … you violently butchered Peter’s meaning.

Dave

Kevin
July 15th, 2002, 08:20 PM
c.moore,


Ro:10:9: That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved Ro:10:10: For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Why are you emphasizing the part that speaks about believing in the heart? I've never disagreed with that. What I've been giving Agape a hard time about is that he (or she?) is claiming that one "confesses" inwardly with the heart. That is NOT what the verse says! It says with the MOUTH confession is made unto salvation. The MOUTH, not the heart, but you just blindly defend Agape, don't you. :rolleyes:

Therefore in order to CONFESS "with the mouth", you have to use your mouth, right? That's what I'm asking you. Will your pride stop you from answering this simple question honestly?

Here is what started this whole thing (page 118 at the top):

Kevin:
"Confessing Christ with the mouth does play a role in our salvation:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Agape:
With the mouth does not mean saying it verbally or out loud. It means you are confessing this within yourself"

We were talking about the act of confessing, not believing. If you confess within yourself, you are not using your mouth, which is what we are to use according to that verse!

agape
July 15th, 2002, 09:41 PM
Originally posted by Kevin
c.moore,
Therefore in order to CONFESS "with the mouth", you have to use your mouth, right? That's what I'm asking you. Will your pride stop you from answering this simple question honestly?No...NOT RIGHT. You DO NOT have to use your mouth. It means "YOU are saying it...you are saying ...not out loud (although you could)...but that's not the point...you are saying that Christ is your savior, he died for your sins...you are confessing your Savior FROM SIN. This is not works which you are trying to prove. NOT OF WORKS LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST. It is what is in your heart that matters. How silly to think that you have to say it out loud to be saved. The mouth doesn't save you...Christ saved you and this is what you are confessing. It does not say to confess with thy mouth before men. Even that would not save you. You are really becoming quite boring harping on the same issue over and over again. If you still want to believe you have to say it out loud to be saved then fine, but give it a rest already. ;)

drbrumley
July 15th, 2002, 10:34 PM
Kevin,

Then if I take your opinion, someone who is mute and cant speak
doesn't have a chance to heaven?

If that isn't about the dumbest thing I ever heard.

Evangelion
July 15th, 2002, 10:43 PM
Nope. Your argument is based on the false assumption that all we need to do is confess Jesus, and we'll be saved.

That's a classic example of taking one verse out of context, and ignoring any other verse which might qualify it.

Kevin
July 15th, 2002, 11:42 PM
Agape,


It means "YOU are saying it

Saying it with what, according to that verse?


you are saying ...not out loud

If you are not saying it outloud then you are not using your mouth. If your mouth does not move, you are not using your mouth. The verse says that we are to confess with the MOUTH. You can't confess with the mouth if you don't USE the mouth! One of the fucntions of the mouth is to speak OUT LOUD what we think and feel INWARDLY.

If that verse meant for us to confess Him in the heart, it would have said so, but that's not what it says. It says we are to confess with the MOUTH.

Oh how I WISH we were standing in front of a crowd so I could bury you with your logic!!! I would LOVE to see the looks on the crowd's faces (and yours) when I challenge you do confess something to me with the mouth, without using your mouth. That would be a Kodak moment indeed.

I'd like to see you practice what you preach. Confess something with your mouth without actually using it! Please. :rolleyes: As the title of this post says, you're not doing yourself, or your position, any favors.

Some more experiments for you to practice what you preach:

1) Strike a nail "with the hammer" without using the hammer.

2) Start a car "with the key" without using the key.

3) Write your name "with the pen" without using the pen.

I challenge you to do any/all of these things "indwardly" without actually using the mentioned items. You're so lucky this isn't a verbal debate in front of an audience. Easy pickins.

Kevin
July 15th, 2002, 11:57 PM
drbrumley,


Kevin,

Then if I take your opinion, someone who is mute and cant speak
doesn't have a chance to heaven?

A God who does not allow us to be tempted with more than we can bear (1 Cor.10:13), would not expect something of us that we cannot do. Your statement does not excuse the many that can do this.


If that isn't about the dumbest thing I ever heard.

No, what is "dumb" is when man tries to make excuses for what the Bible says, trying to justify not doing it. That's dumb. He who has an ear, let him hear!

agape
July 16th, 2002, 12:07 AM
Originally posted by Evangelion
Nope. Your argument is based on the false assumption that all we need to do is confess Jesus, and we'll be saved.

That's a classic example of taking one verse out of context, and ignoring any other verse which might qualify it. Oh you mean verses like:

[b]Ephesians 2:4-9:
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:

That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast.

Acts 28:28:
Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and [that] they will hear it.

Romans 10:10:
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Romans 1:16:
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Ephesians 1:13:
In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Titus 2:11:
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Hebrews 9:28:
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Acts 2:21:
And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Acts 2:47:
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Acts 4:12:
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Acts 11:14:
Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

Etc., etc., etc.

That's right Evangelion, all we need to do is to confess the Savior from Sin and believe in our hearts that God raised him from the dead. Christ did all the works necessary for our salvation. All we need to do is BELEIVE...we are then saved, born again of God's Spirit and have eternal life. It's that simple because it could not and cannot be done by man or his works of any kind. NOT OF WORKS LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST! It is the "FREE GIFT" OF GOD'S GRACE :)

c.moore
July 16th, 2002, 03:04 AM
Kevin

I do see you point , and I understand more of your belief.

I think the point agape is just trying to show you that we can be saved when we just believe with our heart, and we can have eternal life, and we should want to confess with our mouth if we really believe in our heart.

The same is with the baptism,we are save by believing , and born again, and sence we are saved , if we really believe in our hearts we will get water baptized.

I notice your believe is based mostly on the thing that are seen in the natural,that one can see, or hear, feel or taste, and specially do.

I would rather base my belief on Jesus alone, and on the Spiritual world and ways Of God.

Let God bless you

agape
July 16th, 2002, 06:01 AM
Originally posted by c.moore
Kevin
I think the point agape is just trying to show you that we can be saved when we just believe with our heart, and we can have eternal life, and we should want to confess with our mouth if we really believe in our heart.The point I am trying to make is yes we need to believe with our heart in Christ as our Savior, this is confessing the Lord Jesus and this is believing God raised him from the dead.

The same is with the baptism,we are save by believing , and born again, and sence we are saved , if we really believe in our hearts we will get water baptized.When we believe "in" Christ, we are baptized with the holy spirit" at that very moment. There is no longer any water baptism. Again, Christ said: Acts 1:5: "For John truly baptized with water, BUT ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence." :)

agape
July 16th, 2002, 08:49 AM
Kevin,

It is with the mouth that a person shows others his faith. But it is not by a person's mouth that he is saved.

I hope you realize that this is the "only" verse that says "with the mouth." All other verse "regarding salvation" simply tell us that we must do one thing, which is to believe in Jesus Christ.

In Acts 16:30,31, the jailor asked Paul "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" The anwer was short and simple: "Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved." If "confessing with the mouth" or "saying it out loud "brings one salvation, don't you think Paul would have said so? Did he say it? No. Why? Because saying it verbally with the mouth is not a prerequisite for salvation. It is by "believing" in the Lord as one's savior from sin that one gets saved and born again of God's Spirit.

John 3:16: "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever BELIEVETH IN HIM shall not perish but have eternal life." This verse makes no mention of verbally confessing with the mouth.

Acts 13:39:
And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

There are many more verses which place the emphasis on "believing" in order to be saved.

it is the faith--not the works, the ritual, nor the physical act that qualifies a person for the kingdom of God. James also reminds us that faith, when put into practice, always produces works, which in turn declare that we are right with God. His emphasis is in agreement with Paul, who told us to "work out" our salvation, not work "for" it.

Again, Kevin, "It is with the mouth that a person shows others his faith. But it is not by a person's mouth that he is saved."

I don't know what more I can say at this time. Unless I have added info to give you, I will not be discussing this subject matter again. Believe what you will. ;)

c.moore
July 16th, 2002, 05:07 PM
Hello agape
you said:When we believe "in" Christ, we are baptized with the holy spirit" at that very moment. There is no longer any water baptism. Again, Christ said: Acts 1:5: "For John truly baptized with water, BUT ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence."


Quote c.moore
are you saying we don`t have to be water baptized at any time?

It is a command to get water baptized , and in our walk with Jesus we should sometime get baptized as a follower of Chrst , but not get baptized to be saved , and have salvation , that is wrong by kevin They think water baptism saves, but it in the walk with Jesus.


God bless you

Kevin
July 16th, 2002, 06:53 PM
c.moore,


I do see you point , and I understand more of your belief.

Thank you so much for acknowledging my simple point that confession is done with the mouth according to that verse, not the heart. I respect your honesty. :up:


I notice your believe is based mostly on the thing that are seen in the natural,that one can see, or hear, feel or taste, and specially do.

I base my beliefs on my faith in God, and my obedience to Him. I believe that we must do what God commands us to do to be saved. A lot of people don't believe this. In the end, we will all give an accountance for our actions (or lack of).


I would rather base my belief on Jesus alone, and on the Spiritual world and ways Of God.

Yeah, but if you base your belief on Jesus, yet do not to His commandments, then you are a liar, and the truth is not in you (1 John 2:4). We have to believe and keep His commandments.

Kevin
July 16th, 2002, 07:36 PM
Agape,


But it is not by a person's mouth that he is saved.

Paul clearly shows a relation between "confessing with the mouth" and salvation. The verse clearly says "with the mouth, confession is made unto salvation. Paul goes on in verse 13 to say that "Whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." How do we "call" on the name of the Lord? Well, "with the mouth, confession is made unto salvation."

Paul himself called upon the name of the Lord in his conversion (Acts 22:16). By the way, he was baptized also. And if you notice, Jesus asked Paul "Why are you waiting, arise and be baptized...". Jesus told Paul to get baptized, which is proof that your theory of "a person is automatically baptized upon hearing the word" is not true. If Paul was automatically baptized, Jesus wouldn't have asked him why he was waiting.

Then there's the eunuch who wasn't baptized automatically as soon as he believed. When the eunuch acknowledged that he blieved in Jesus, Phillip took him down into the waters and baptized him. This happened AFTER he believed (not automatically) by Phillip, and it involved water.


All other verse "regarding salvation" simply tell us that we must do one thing, which is to believe in Jesus Christ.

Wrong:

Mark 16:16
16) He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

1 Peter 3:21
21) There is also an antitype which now saves us-baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Acts 10:34-35
34) Then Peter opened his mouth and said: In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality.
35) But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.

Romans 6:3-6
3) Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
4) Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5) For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6) knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.

John 8:51
51) "Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death

Hebrews 5:9
9) And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.

John 15:10
10) If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

1 John 2:17
17) And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.

1 John 3:24
24) Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

Revelation 22:14
14) Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and my enter through the gates into the city.

1 John 2:3-4
3) Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4) He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.


John 3:16: "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever BELIEVETH IN HIM shall not perish but have eternal life." This verse makes no mention of verbally confessing with the mouth.

1 John 2:4 makes it quite clear belief by itself won't do anybody any good. The "belief" spoken of in John 3:16 is the kind of belief that is acted upon. What good does it do you to hear the gospel and believe it, yet you don't obey it? If one truly believes in Him, then they will obey His commandments.


There are many more verses which place the emphasis on "believing" in order to be saved.

I'm sure there are, but you just don't understand what kind of belief is being spoken of. It's not a dead belief unto it's own. The people who believed and converted where the ones who acted upon thier belief and obeyed the gospel.

HopeofGlory
July 16th, 2002, 09:19 PM
Apollos,

The GREAT COMMISSION is not found in your bible.


Because of what the Great Commission contains, I often wonder if those who say it’s “not there”, or that it was never “acted upon”, think we should preach the gospel to the entire world.

The Great Commission is nothing more than a cliche on which religionist hang their doctrinal hat. Christ never commanded apostles to water baptize but He did instruct the apostles to teach the words He had spoken to them. The apostles failed to deliver the words of the new testament for remission (Mat 26:28) and continued to preach the Baptist (Mark 1:4) water baptism of repentance for remission (Acts 2:38).


quote:
No, it is not there [in Matthew 28:18f]! Notice Jesus said that "all" power had been given to Him in heaven and earth being this was after His death for remission of sins (see Heb (:16). This in effect replaced the old testimony of remission delivered by the Baptist (Mark 1:4).

I agree! In fact, that ALL authority was given to Christ “replaced” EVERYTHING before this time in religion. This changed everything! It was at this point that Jesus had ALL say in religious matters. It was at this time that Jesus gave a NEW baptism for the WHOLE creation which was into the “name of the F/Son/HS”. It was new, Jesus had all authority to institute a new baptism (water), and He did just that by His authority. We see in Acts where the disciples took this commission and baptism to the entire world !!

The change was not a “new” water baptism therefore the foundation of your false doctrine is nothing more than sand. The change was a new testament in the blood of Christ for remission. Now tell us where Jesus commissioned a “new” water baptism and explain the difference between the old and the new with proof text!

If you opened the valve of a irrigation tank did you baptize each seed in the field individually causing it to germinate? No, it would be almost impossible to do so but you did release the water thus giving life to all the seed the water immersed. Such is the spirit word (John 6:63) of the new testament for remission of sins (Mat 26:28) that Christ instructed the apostles to teach (Mat 28:19-20), it gives life (2 Cor 3:6) and we are born again through faith in it (1 pet 1:23).


quote:
Christ did authorize His own baptism (Acts 1:5).

No He did not! Christ “authorized” nothing here in Acts 1:5. But He did PROMISE to send the HS to the APOSTLES only, as Luke recorded earlier in Luke 24 – to the apostles! HS baptism is NOT authorized, it is not for remission of sins, it is not for salvation, and Jesus never told any disciple to baptize another with HS baptism!

The baptism Jesus authorized in Matthew 28:18f was in water (Acts 10:47) and it was for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38). Stop confusing the authorized baptism of Jesus (in the name of Jesus Christ) with the baptism of John. They are TWO different animals!!

Christ most assuredly did authorize Spirit baptism for “ALL” and the inspired epistles of Paul reveals this truth (1 Cor 12:13) (Eph 4:4-5)

And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but (on the contrary) tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high. Luke 24:49 (KJV)

Where did Jesus say the apostles would be baptized with the Holy Ghost at Pentecost? Where is this promise made? Jesus said “but tarry until ye be endued with power“. The gift of the Holy Ghost (Acts 1:7) was not salvation and it was not Spirit baptism that places us unto the body of Christ. You draw conclusions based on assumptions to prove your “new” water baptism doctrine.


quote:
The apostles never baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost…

Yes they did! This baptism “in the name of Jesus” or “by His authority” as found in the commission of Matthew 28:18f is mentioned specifically by name in Acts 2:38, 8:16, 10:48, and 19:5.

Please, your statement is without proof. None of your references contain anybody being baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Why? Because it is impossible for man to perform this baptism that the Baptist said Jesus (Mark 1:8) would do.


quote:
He did authorize a "new" testament with a greater witness than the Baptist…

More accurately, the blood of Jesus ratified (validated) a new testament. In that new testament Christ authorizes what He wants man to do in religion. Christ has ALL authority, so He can dictate as He pleases. That Jesus is “greater” than John is a given as John came to prepare the way of the Lord.

The shed blood of Christ IS the new testament.

For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Matt. 26:28 (KJV)

Christ did not require man to do anything.

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing ...John 6:63 (KJV)

The point is that Jesus gave us a greater “witness” for remission of sins (Mat 26:28) and it superceded the Baptist’s witness (Mark 1:4). It explains why Paul said...
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel... 1 Cor. 1:17 (KJV)

Many have received man’s false doctrine of the Great Commission (Acts 2:38) yet they reject the words of Peter that state it must be obeyed (Acts 10:35) to receive remission.

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Titus 3:5 (KJV)
Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; Titus 3:6 (KJV)
That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:7 (KJV)

Will be continued....

In Christ
Craig

HopeofGlory
July 16th, 2002, 09:39 PM
Many would rather identify with those who insist on baptism into Christ by the Holy Spirit as the true baptism, and do not practice water baptismal regeneration and label those who insist that water baptism is necessary for salvation as heretics.
It is clear these do not believe one must be water baptized to be saved of which is true for us today but they do not understand the clear teachings on water baptism being a requirement in the early church for salvation. If they had not obeyed in water baptism at Pentecost they would not have been saved and the gift of the Holy Ghost would not have been received. Water baptism for remission was superceded in the new testament by faith in the blood Christ shed for remission of sins.

Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. Col. 2:12 (KJV)
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Col. 2:13 (KJV)

Note this baptism is the OPERATION OF GOD and it is NOT water baptism. This is clearly a reference to Spiritual baptism through faith when we are quickened together with Him. Doctrine is not developed by adding words to scripture but the context is evidence of its meaning. Many take random scripture references out of context and add water to the mix and say, there I proved it. It simply will not work! The inspired word of God in reference to the "new" testament truth being not understood has caused many to add “water” to various verses but if we say one MUST be water baptized to be saved then it is clearly an offence to the cross.

If we read Romans 5 we can see how we are baptized into his death and the contrast of the old testament of obedience as compared to the new testament of obedience. Those who walk by sight and are still in the flesh say it is by obeying in water baptism but this is not what Paul said.

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: Rom. 5:1 (KJV)
By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Rom. 5:2 (KJV)

Faith is required not obedience to water baptism which is a "work" of the flesh. If a work is required then salvation must be earned. Jesus said “it is finished” and therefore no more “work” is required for salvation. Those who do not have “faith” in His finished work say water baptism is required and are still in their sins.

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. Rom. 5:9 (KJV)

We are justified by His blood in the new testament and the only way that can be received is by faith. Nothing more need be added unless you do not believe. The old message for remission of sins (Acts 2:38) has been superceded by the greater witness of God (John 5:36) and the new message is faith in His blood for remission of sins.


But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. Rom. 5:15 (KJV)

We can not add to the finished work of Christ and this "gift" must be received "freely" or it is no longer a gift.

For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Rom. 5:19 (KJV)

The contrast is clearly defined when compared with...And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him (Acts 5:32). It is not "our" obedience but by the obedience of "one" so that the gift may be "free". Some say it is not free and by adding their obedience they deny the word of God and void the free gift.


Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Rom. 6:3 (KJV)

Note the contrast! It says baptized "into Jesus" as compared to "into water". How are we to get into Jesus?..."For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body" (1 Cor. 12:13) (KJV)...and it is the "one" baptism (Eph. 4:5) for us today.

Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Rom. 6:4 (KJV)

Here it says "into death" not "water" . In other words when we are baptized by the Spirit we are in His body and we died with Him and it is received through "faith" freely by His obedience not ours.

The "new" testament baptism is "into his death" and should not be confused with the "old" testament baptism that was "into water".

Scripture is the inspired word of God and Paul wrote ....One Lord, one faith, one baptism (Eph. 4:5). There is only one baptism for us today and it is Spirit baptism. To disprove these words one must added the word water to various scriptures and God has commanded us not to add to His word.

In Christ
Craig

drbrumley
July 16th, 2002, 10:43 PM
HopeofGlory,

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!

Evangelion
July 16th, 2002, 10:49 PM
OK, let's see if that works. "We are baptised into his death."

Hmmm. No mention of the Holy Spirit, I see... Better not "add to God's Word", right boys? ;)

agape
July 17th, 2002, 06:49 AM
Originally posted by Evangelion
OK, let's see if that works. "We are baptised into his death."

Hmmm. No mention of the Holy Spirit, I see... Better not "add to God's Word", right boys? ;) Yes Evangelion, better not to "add to" God's Word and better not to "detract from" God's Word too! ;)

First of all, we know that the baptism in Romans 6 is talking about spirit baptism because Jesus Christ says so. Acts 1:5: "For John truly baptized with water BUT YE SHALL BE BAPTIZED WITH THE "HOLY GHOST" NOT MANY DAYS HENCE."

Jesus Christ makes it very clear that baptism with the holy spirit is to replace the water baptism of John.

John himself makes it very clear that baptism with the holy spirit is where it's at. Mark 1:8:

I indeed have baptized you with water: BUT "HE" SHALL BAPTIZE YOU WITH THE HOLY GHOST."

Secondly, water baptism cannot get one baptized INTO Christ. Also, when John baptized with water, Jesus Christ had not yet died for our sins and therefore there was no water baptism "into" his death. Water baptism was only "symbolic"...a type....till the greater baptism with the "HOLY SPIRIT" by Christ became available.

Sheesh...Evangelion it's all written there in black and white...are you that blind that you cannot see what is written...what is "thus saith the Lord?" Why do you want to "detract from" Acts 1:5 "BUT YE SHALL BE BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST...."?

After Christ died, was buried, raised from dead and ascended to his Father, "BUT ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost" became available on the day of Pentecost.

To be baptized INTO his death is to be "baptized with the holy spirit"...BECAUSE JESUS SAID SO! :)

Also, it is obvious that Chapter 6 is a continuation from Chapter 5.

Chapter 5 is referring to God giving us His "Holy Spirit."

Romans 5:5-
And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Now you show me, Evangelion, where does it mention "WATER?" Not only in chapter 6, but in the whole book of Romans?? ;)

Evangelion
July 17th, 2002, 07:42 AM
OK, well that was a complete waste of your time and mine. :rolleyes:

Care to address the typology? Oh no, that's right - you already said you didn't want to.

Never mind. :)

agape
July 17th, 2002, 08:13 AM
Originally posted by Evangelion
OK, well that was a complete waste of your time and mine. Care to address the typology? Oh no, that's right - you already said you didn't want to. Never mind.Great way to respond to my post, Evangelion. Always running away. Why can't you respond to what I presented instead of making up such lame excuses as not to? hmmmmm?

I did address your wet stages. You say I didn't because the truth I presented was not what you wanted to hear. You have asked me this before and I have answered you. The reason you are asking again is to just cop out from responding to my post...the same old typical trick of yours. :rolleyes:

Your right about one thing, which is wasting time... seeing YOU do a good job of wasting both God's time and mine. ;)

itsjustdave1988
July 17th, 2002, 09:00 AM
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast.


I don't believe it's not a grace versus works issue.

Grace

We cannot have faith without grace. So, first comes God's grace (a free gift to all). Then comes the acceptance of God's grace (not all accept, however). The Justification process is just that ... a process ... not an instant in time.

Faith

Is faith merely trust? Trust in the Lord is absolutely necessary to have faith, however, I believe it is more than that. Justifying faith also involves a real mental act of faith, consisting of a firm belief in all revealed truths.

(Rom 4:5) The justifying faith of St. Paul is identical with the mental act of faith or belief in Divine truth; for Abraham was justified not by faith in his own justification, but by faith in the truth of the Divine promise that he would be the "father of many nations" (cf. Rom 4:9). In strict accord with this is the Pauline teaching that the faith of justification, which we must profess "with heart and mouth", is identical with the mental act of faith in the Resurrection of Christ, the central dogma of Christianity (Rom 10:9).

Justification

Justification is a transformation process of the sinner from the state of sin to that of sanctifying grace ... where a state of habitual holiness and sonship of God begins.

St. Paul emphasizes that faith is needed for justification. He does not, however, say "faith alone." The only time the words "faith alone" appears in the Bible is in the Epistle of James (Jam 2:14-24 ) where he teaches us that a man is justified by works and not faith alone. I don't believe Paul and James had contradictory beliefs.[/B

The justification process involves action on our part ... perhaps even a lifetime of action. According to scripture, over and above faith (but not without faith), other acts are necessary for justification, such as fear (Ecclus 1:28), and hope, (Rom 8:24), charity (Luke 7:47), penance with contrition (Luke 13:3, Acts 2:38, 3:19), almsgiving (Dan 4:24). Without charity and the works of charity, faith is dead. Faith receives life only from and through charity (Jam 2:26).

[B]Redemption and Salvation

"Are you saved?" asks the Fundamentalist. "I am Redeemed" says the Catholic. As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).

Redemption is God's activity in delivering us from the bondage of sin and evil. We have hope in salvation only because OF Christ's life, death, and resurrection. Christ delivered us from the power of sin and evil (Col 1:13-14). God did not, however, take away our free will. We can still choose evil.

Salvation depends upon us to accept God's grace (free gift to all), to become justified through faith (trust and mental act of belief in Divine Truth) and other necessary acts of faith (fear, hope, charity, penance with contrition, almsgiving), and to become sanctified (made holy) by God's grace delivered unto us through prayer and the sacraments of His Church and through lifelong acts of charity.

I believe this is what Paul means when he says he is working out his salvation in fear and trembling with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ.

agape
July 17th, 2002, 11:37 AM
Dave,

I'm not quite sure "exactly"what it is you are trying to communicate.

Ephesians 2:4-9
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace [divine favor] ye are saved)

And hath raised [past tense] [us] up together, and made [past tense] [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:

That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast.

We are saved, born again and have eternal life by the grace of God. Our salvation is by faith (alone or faith without works), in Christ who did all the works for salvation for us. Now it is our part to walk in the righteousness and justification of God in Christ in us and produce good works. Salvation first and then good works follow.

James faith (which one already has because of Ephesians 2) without works means not putting one's faith into action after being saved, born again and having eternal life.

If this is what you are saying then I agree. :)

Also, Paul spoke about working out salvation (which we already have)...Not working FOR salvation....right? :)

Evangelion
July 17th, 2002, 11:44 AM
Agape, I've posted more on this entire subject than you have, and for the most part, my arguments have gone unanswered by you and the rest of the "No baptisms" crowd.

Your latest response is just more smoke-blowing. You won't address my proof texts directly, you keep swerving off to your favourite verses, and you can't even deal with the typology.

So you can strut all you want. but it won't change anything. :p

Apollos
July 17th, 2002, 01:14 PM
Hey Craig –

Jesus gave a commission in Matthew 28:18f for the disciples to go into all the world, teach, baptize, and observe all things whatsoever He commanded . This commission is for the entire world! That is really GREAT – don’t you think? This is a great commission!!

Within this commission Jesus commanded a baptism “into the name of the Father, Son, and HS”. Such a command for and such a BAPTISM as this, was never given BEFORE. You will not find it!

This baptism is given by the AUHTORITY if Jesus Christ who has ALL authority! It is not John’s baptism – which was “unto repentance”, and the apostles and the NT church did not practice John’s baptism, but rather they practiced this great commission baptism that was “in the name of (by the
authority) Jesus Christ”. (See Acts 2:38, 8:16, 10:48, and 19:5.) This baptism was also IN WATER! Acts 10:47f (This baptism is NOT “word” baptism – whatever that is, and this is not HS baptism!)

(Craig – tell us what the baptism “into the name of the F/Son/& HS is - Matthew 28:18f. Hmmm? Can you do that?)

Craig, all you have to do is find where baptism “into the name of the Father, Son, and HS” was practiced BEFORE Matthew 18 – or prove this GC baptism is the same as John’s baptism. (But you cannot!!)

Plus, you continue to ignore that “repentance and remission of sins” would be preached FIRST “in His name” beginning at Jerusalem. No “remission” at Jerusalem??? You are making a liar of out Luke (24:47) and Jesus. This is a really bad combination!


Now tell us where Jesus commissioned a “new” water baptism and explain the difference between the old and the new with proof text! I have already done this again above this thread and in my last thread.


If you opened the valve of a irrigation tank did you baptize each seed…I may have. But if I did or didn’t, Mark 16;16, Acts 2:38, 22:16, Rom. 6:3, etc. require an IMMERSION to take place for a baptism to be scriptural!

And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but (on the contrary) tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high. Luke 24:49 (KJV) Of course, this promise was to the APOSTLES ONLY (context Craig – context!!) who waited in Jerusalem to preach repentance & REMISSION as stated in verse 47 of this chapter. BTW, are you saying you believe the Apostles were IN THE BODY ???


Where did Jesus say the apostles would be baptized with the Holy Ghost at Pentecost? I believe it is inferred when Jesus said “…not many days hence.” And then I look and see the “power from on high” in Acts 2!! This happened “not many days hence”. So WHEN did the Apostles receive the HS IF you do not think it was Pentecost???

Where is this promise made? John 14:26, 16:13, Luke 24:49, Acts 1:4,5.

The shed blood of Christ IS the new testament. You insist on using this vague statement over and over and over. You must hide some type of meaning within it for your theology. More accurately, the blood of Jesus ratified (validated) a new testament. If you disagree, it is past time to explain why, and what you mean with that “broken record” of yours!!


Christ did not require man to do anything. Sure Jesus does. This has already been proven by me at least 3 times here of late. We are past this Craig. We are now discussing exactly what man MUST DO !!

### Second request Craig - Tell us EXACTLY what man must do to appropriate salvation from God. We need you to be quite SPECIFIC!!


Water baptism for remission was superceded in the new testament by faith in the blood Christ shed for remission of sins.No Craig, His blood made water baptism for remission of sins possible within the New Testament.

Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. Col. 2:12 (KJV)When one is “baptized in the Spirit” – tell us – how is one RAISED ???

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Col. 2:13 (KJV) Craig, this speaks of repentance. Is this something man MUST DO to be saved??


Note this baptism is the OPERATION OF GOD and it is NOT water baptism. Absolutely ! Just like it was with Naaman and the blind man in John 9!! It was not the water, it was the “operation” of God – just as it is with water baptism!!!

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: Rom. 5:1 (KJV)
By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Rom. 5:2 (KJV)

This is not a problem Craig. Faith is believing in God enough to obey what He says to do! Just as Paul said in Romans 6:17f that by obeying from the heart, they were made free from sin, and became servants of righteousness. The faith that saves is the faith that ACTS !!

When faith realizes the salvation of God can be ultimately appropriated by immersion in water, because that is what God says to do, then when faith acts on this information, faith has matured enough to save!

Evangelion
July 17th, 2002, 01:19 PM
Here's another one for the Dispys -

John 1:29.
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Hmmm. I don't know how a Dispy would "interpret" this, but I find it hard to believe that the average Jew would be incapable of making any connection between the "Lamb of God", and a blood sacrifice for the covering of sin! ;)

c.moore
July 17th, 2002, 01:23 PM
Quote Kevin
I base my beliefs on my faith in God, and my obedience to Him. I believe that we must do what God commands us to do to be saved. A lot of people don't believe this. In the end, we will all give an accountance for our actions (or lack of).


Quote c.moore

Heb:11:1: Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Ro:10:17: So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

faith cometh not by obedience says the bible!


yes we will give account to our rewards, but not salvation if we already believe Ro:8:1: There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Ro:8:15: For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Ro:8:16: The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Ro:8:17: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

If we are adopted ,why must we have to do , when all we fi´rst have to do is just recieve to be a child of God???

I do commandments just because I love the father, and his spirit is in me to help me do God will, but the confession, and repentance alone is what adopt me in the family of God,spiritually.


Quote Kevin

Yeah, but if you base your belief on Jesus, yet do not to His commandments, then you are a liar, and the truth is not in you (1 John 2:4). We have to believe and keep His commandments


Quote c.moore

I do his commands because I am already saved, and found my first love in Jesus.
Of course if I am in love with a person I will do all I can for them just because I love them , and like them, the same is for Jesus,but not to do things to gain salvation or to qualify to be save.
Ro:10:10: For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Ro:10:11: For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Ro:10:12: For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Ro:10:13: For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

peace

Kevin
July 17th, 2002, 03:43 PM
c.moore,


Quote Kevin
I base my beliefs on my faith in God, and my obedience to Him. I believe that we must do what God commands us to do to be saved. A lot of people don't believe this. In the end, we will all give an accountance for our actions (or lack of).


Quote c.moore

Heb:11:1: Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Ro:10:17: So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

faith cometh not by obedience says the bible!

I never claimed that faith came from obedience! Sheesh! Faith comes by hearing the word of God. But that faith is useless unless it's acted upon.


yes we will give account to our rewards

Judgement day is when we are deemed worthy, or not worthy, to enter heaven, according to the judgement of Christ. Judgement day is not to give out rewards. Matt.25:41-46 is an example of what will happen on Judgement day. The sheeps and the goats were separated. The sheep went to heaven, the goats went to hell. Simple. Take note that the goats spoken of there because of their lack of works, (which you have already acknowledged).


Quote Kevin

Yeah, but if you base your belief on Jesus, yet do not to His commandments, then you are a liar, and the truth is not in you (1 John 2:4). We have to believe and keep His commandments


Quote c.moore

I do his commands because I am already saved, and found my first love in Jesus.
Of course if I am in love with a person I will do all I can for them just because I love them , and like them, the same is for Jesus,but not to do things to gain salvation or to qualify to be save.
Ro:10:10: For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Ro:10:11: For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Ro:10:12: For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Ro:10:13: For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

None of this changes my point that if you base your belief on Jesus, yet do not to His commandments, then you are a liar, and the truth is not in you (1 John 2:4).

itsjustdave1988
July 17th, 2002, 08:10 PM
Agape,

I guess I'm having a hard time understanding your teaching on salvation. Do you believe you simply have to affirm that Jesus is your Lord and personal savior, then the Holy Spirit comes upon you and you are saved? What happens to a righteous man who turns to wickedness at the end of his life? Did the Apostle Paul presume that his salvation was so secure that he could never lose it? Did he warn the Corinthians about the possibility of losing their salvation? Wasn't he talking to Christians in Corinth ... presumably already baptized?What is faith to you? Is it purely trust? Or, is it a mental affirmation in divine truth? Or, is it both? Did Jesus command us to DO anything for eternal life? How did the 1st century and 2nd Christians baptize? Is there a difference between "works of the Torah" and "good work?" Does our faith grow after baptism? Is justification different from salvation? What is your understanding of redemption? Is it different or the same as justification? as salvation? What is your understanding of forgiveness of sins ... are sins obliterated or are they merely concealed? Do you believe people can be sanctified by God's grace? Can you receive or reject God's grace more than once in your life? Did the apostles teach us to do anything to receive God's grace? Can God use material things (water, oil, bread, wine, etc.) to convey His grace to us? Can an unsanctified soul enter heaven? Are all sins mortal? Is the "Bible alone" doctrine found in the Bible? If not, doesn't the "Bible alone" doctrine contradict itself? How do we know what books are in the Bible and what books are not in the Bible? How many Old Testament books are in the Bible? Did the 1st century Christians most commonly use the Greek translation (Septuagint) or the Hebrew translation of the Bible?

Sorry ... I went a little nuts with my questions. I'm not trying to put you on the spot or anything. I'm just trying to understand you better. I'm certain we are in agreement on many of these things. I'm just not certain which ones.

P.S. I'm going out of town for a few days, so I may or may not see your reply for a few days.

Take care,

drbrumley
July 17th, 2002, 10:52 PM
Apollos,

Thank you for your reply.

Bottom line to me is I can care less if you want to be baptized in water.That is your decision and yours alone. What I listed was the requirements of salvation. If you want to call them works, go right ahead. In a way, they are works. I will agree with you on that point.


I am not sure though when you think man reaches the point at which he becomes saved

It is the moment you have ACCEPTED the HOLY SPIRIT's testimony.

-Adrian Rodgers-
The Apostle John wrote an entire chapter to assure God's people that they are indeed God's people. "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God: that ye may KNOW that ye have eternal life . . ." (1 John 5:13).

The word know means absolute assurance. According to verse 13, it is possible to be saved and know it. But the very fact that John wrote this verse shows that it is also possible to be saved and doubt it.

Is doubt good? No. Doubt is to your spirit what pain is to your body. Pain is a warning, a signal that something is wrong. It does not mean you are dead. It just means that something is wrong.

If you have doubts and you are truly a born again child of God, you are suffering from some spiritual sickness. All Christians doubt from time to time. A woman once told Dwight L. Moody she had been saved for 25 years and never had a doubt. He said, "I doubt you're saved."

But while we may all be bothered by an occasional doubt, it is a problem that must and can be overcome. John said he wrote chapter five to us as God's children so that we may know that we have been saved. The words know, knoweth, or known appear 38 times in this epistle on assurance.

The next logical question, then, is "How can I know?" I know, not because of any confidence that I have in myself, but by two infallible proofs.

-Adrian Rodgers-

The last paragraph you need to answer for yourself.

If your running around telling people you are not not saved, thens there is a serious problem on your part. Plus you tell them they need to be baptized in water, but you still don't know? You are defeating the purpose of the Holy Spirit.

I also think you are taking my words and misapplying them.

Baptism is a work indeed. So are what was mentioned by my post. The problem lies in applying something to Isreal to us. I understand you probably don't see it. But just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it isn't there. I'm sure you agree with that. And contrary to what Evangelion says, (he even believes in Dispensationalism to an extant.) You too maybe. Most anti dispensationalists are dispensationalists whether they care to admit it or not! Anyway, but back to works, we must acept the atoning blood of Jesus. If that is a WORK, then so be it. I have not heard CMoore say different, I have not heard Agape say different, or even Hope of Glory say different. The issue is baptism and as you know the argument, baptism was an application to Isreal. Not to the Body of Christ. Is it good someone wants to be baptized? Sure it is. But bapism is NOT a qualifer to be salvation. Someone's salvation does not rest on being baptized.

To you you must be baptized to be saved because you apply what was to Isreal.

To me you don't have to be baptized to get salvation. You must do what I previously posted but baptism in water is not the part of salvation.

I hope this sheds alittle light as my difference of opinion with you.

God Bless.

Evangelion
July 17th, 2002, 10:59 PM
Where in the Bible are we told that baptism is a "work" in the sense of "something which was necessary under the Law of Moses, but is not no longer necessary for salvation"?

Evangelion
July 17th, 2002, 11:01 PM
drbrumely -


baptism was an application to Isreal. Not to the Body of Christ.

Scripture please!

agape
July 18th, 2002, 03:14 AM
Originally posted by Evangelion
Where in the Bible are we told that baptism is a "work" in the sense of "something which was necessary under the Law of Moses, but is not no longer necessary for salvation"? Water baptism never brought salvation to anyone in the first place. I don't know of any law concerning John's water bapism. However, If one says that we must also be "water baptized" for salvation, then salvation no longer soley relies on the sacrifice of Jesus Christ for remission of sins and by the grace of God and therefore it becomes works or an action taken on the part of the person himself for salvation.

Water baptism was for Israel under the Old Testament or Covenant. They followed John the Baptist's instruction to repent and be baptized which was done with water. However, John preached to Israel that one greater than him would come and he, Jesus Christ, would baptize with the Holy Spirit. When Christ died for the remission of sins and God raised him from the dead and he ascended to his Father, the symbolic water baptism was to be no longer a practice for Israel. Jesus Christ last words to his disciples were: For John truly baptized with water, BUT YE SHALL BE BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST NOT MANY DAYS HENCE."

The Gentile Nation was not part of Israel and their practices and they certainly were not obligated in any way to be water baptized. However, since the day of Pentecost, it was available for both Jew and Gentile who believed in Chirst to be baptized with the holy spirit of which both Jesus and John spoke of and taught. The Body of Christ came AFTER the new birth became available and it is made up of born-again believers, both Jew and Gentile. Therefore, there aren't any verses stating that water baptism does not apply to the Body of Christ, because it never did and it never will.

Evangelion
July 18th, 2002, 10:44 AM
No answers from you, in other words... :rolleyes:

c.moore
July 18th, 2002, 11:32 AM
Quote Kevin

I never claimed that faith came from obedience! Sheesh! Faith comes by hearing the word of God. But that faith is useless unless it's acted upon.


Quote c.moore
Don`t you have to believe the word when you hear it first before wanting to act on it or upon it??????????


Quote kevin
Judgement day is when we are deemed worthy, or not worthy, to enter heaven, according to the judgement of Christ. Judgement day is not to give out rewards.



Quote c.moore
Then what does this mean Ro:8:1: There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit???

Joh:3:18: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Joh:5:24: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Ro:8:34: Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

If a person is not condemned my understanding is that he or she is going to heaven and there is no need for judgement if they are not condemned.


rewards rewards

1Co:9:17: For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.
2Jo:1:8: Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

2Co:5:10: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

1Co:3:8: Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
1Co:3:9: For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
1Co:3:10: According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
1Co:3:11: For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Co:3:12: Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co:3:13: Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co:3:14: If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co:3:15: If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Let God bless you

agape
July 18th, 2002, 12:56 PM
Originally posted by Evangelion
No answers from you, in other words... :rolleyes: Oh you got your answer and you know it Evangelion. You just can't face the truth and realize you have been wrong all along. :rolleyes:

Apollos
July 18th, 2002, 03:52 PM
Dr.B-
Thank you for your polite response. I was disappointed that it so devoid of scriptures to substantiate what was being said. Do not think I do not understand your position. The reason I refute it handily and readily is that I do know where you come from.
Previously I said – “I am not sure though when you think man reaches the point at which he becomes saved…”
Your response was –
It is the moment you have ACCEPTED the HOLY SPIRIT's testimony.

Unfortunately for your position, there is not ONE example or passage in all of the NT that will exemplify or prove your statement here. Not one!

All examples of conversion in the NT (Acts – see my previous post this thread for passages) show that they were baptized in water to ultimately receive the gift of salvation that God was offering to them and any other who would in humble obedience to His will, comply with what God required them to do!

Baptism is a work indeed. So are what was mentioned by my post. The problem lies in applying something to Isreal to us.I do appreciate your candor here. Yes, we both believe works are required to obtain salvation from God. We just do not agree which works are required, or must be completed, to get to that POINT that man is finally saved!!

(Craig and agape become bilious if forced to admit such, but they ALSO believe man must do something, while hiding behind “belief only”. It soothes their “theological aesthetics” to say such !!)

The examples in the book of Acts shows that the recipients expressed their JOY or their REJOICING after becoming saved. Of those shown, this JOY has come AFTER their WATER BAPTISM !!!

Knowing what water baptism is FOR and knowing WHAT IT DOES is the key to understanding and KNOWING that one is saved, and also knowing WHEN one is saved!

“…baptism doth also now save you…” - Peter

HopeofGlory
July 18th, 2002, 08:00 PM
Hey Apollos,


Jesus gave a commission in Matthew 28:18f for the disciples to go into all the world, teach, baptize, and observe all things whatsoever He commanded . This commission is for the entire world! That is really GREAT – don’t you think? This is a great commission!!

1- Jesus did not say go unto all the world and baptize. He said “teach all nations, baptizing them” (Matt. 28:19).

How then did they receive baptism? By the teaching!!!

2- Jesus did not say baptize in water.

His instructions were complete without the word water.

3- Peter did not understand it as to the world.

He told the house hold of Cornelius... it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation... Acts 10:28 (KJV)

4- The Great Commission is not found in the bible.

There is no such doctrine to be found taught by the Lord.

5- What Jesus taught was a greater witness not a greater water baptism.

But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. John 5:36 (KJV)

Both witnesses were for remission of sins and Christ gave this message to the apostles....

For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Matt. 26:28 (KJV)

6- The apostles did not obey His instructions to teach all things He had commanded because the Pentecostal message is void of this greater witness. This reveals that the Great Commission doctrine of men is not Gods.

Within this commission Jesus commanded a baptism “into the name of the Father, Son, and HS”. Such a command for and such a BAPTISM as this, was never given BEFORE. You will not find it!

[B]What you did not find is where anybody was baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. You have been ask to supply the verses but you came up empty handed. This same supposition goes hand in hand with the Great Commission doctrine. Man has substituted the Great Commission for the greater witness of God.

The truth of the matter is that the Baptist (Mark 1:4) and Peter (Acts 2:38) taught the same baptism of repentance for remission of sins and you have failed to prove otherwise.

In Christ
Craig

Kevin
July 18th, 2002, 08:59 PM
c.moore,


Quote Kevin

I never claimed that faith came from obedience! Sheesh! Faith comes by hearing the word of God. But that faith is useless unless it's acted upon.


Quote c.moore
Don`t you have to believe the word when you hear it first before wanting to act on it or upon it??????????

I'm not sure what you are getting at, c.moore. When a person hears the word, they either believe it or they don't. Those who believe should act upon the gospel and obey it, which includes baptism. To hear and believe, yet not obey, is absolutely worthless.

Quote kevin
Judgement day is when we are deemed worthy, or not worthy, to enter heaven, according to the judgement of Christ. Judgement day is not to give out rewards.




Quote c.moore
Then what does this mean Ro:8:1: There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit???

Joh:3:18: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Joh:5:24: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Ro:8:34: Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

And I believe these are all true. This doesn't mean that once you've accepted Christ, you are saved no matter what (OSAS). You can turn your back on God and fall out of grace! Have you changed your beliefs, c.moore? Do you now accept OSAS?

Salvation is a life long process, we have to be faithful - which includes keeping His commandments - to the end:

Revelation 2:10
10) Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Salvation is not a one time event. We can enter His graces and be in a state of salvation while human, but we have to be faithful to the point of death to recieve the crown of life.


If a person is not condemned my understanding is that he or she is going to heaven and there is no need for judgement if they are not condemned.

As long as they remain faithful, you're right, there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. Again, are you now an OSAS believer?


1Co:9:17: For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.
2Jo:1:8: Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

2Co:5:10: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

1Co:3:8: Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
1Co:3:9: For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
1Co:3:10: According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
1Co:3:11: For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Co:3:12: Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co:3:13: Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co:3:14: If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co:3:15: If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

This has already been addressed when you brought this up a while back. This has nothing to do with the fact that we are going to be judged by Christ, and it will have a direct effect upon our salvation.

ServantofChrist did a great job explaining to you the passage you've quoted. Here's what he said:

"Hello C. Moore,

I read your post concerning 1 Cor. 3:5-15, and you still haven't got it right.

Paul is talking about members of the church in Corinth building on the foundation of Christ (v. 11). And he shows by examples of himself and Apollos that building on that foundation means people using the various talents and abilities that God has given us to build up His church in our locale. To show what he means, Paul says that he planted (the seed of God's word) and Apollos watered (nurtured and reinforced Paul's teaching and work): each using his God-given abilities to build up the church there.

Now watch the following principle emerge from v. 8, knowing that nothing else anywhere in the scriptures contradicts it - "Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward ACCORDING TO HIS OWN LABOR" (which is another way of saying, according to his own work).

But in v. 14, Paul says that though a person's work may be "burned up" and he "suffers loss," he himself will be saved. What does he mean? The following example will show the principle he is teaching:

Preachers have gone into Africa and planted the seed of God's word through preaching. In so doing, they have planted churches where they did not exist before; where Christians meet together to worship and help each other in carrying out God's will in their life over in that part of the world. Therefore, these preachers have performed a good "labor" or "work" there. Some of these churches continue on. But in certain places, Muslims have stormed in and murdered the Christians, destroyed their place of worship, and driven the rest from their homes and villages and scattered them abroad. Therefore, although the church does not meet at that particular place anymore because Muslims forcibly prevent the church from existing there, yet he who labored there in planting the word and getting the Lord's church started may suffered the loss of his work, but he himself will be saved, "yet so as through fire" (v. 15). What fire? The "fire" spoken of in v. 13 - "each one's work will become manifest; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it was."

And remember, in conjunction with the above thought, v. 8 says - "each one will receive his own reward ACCORDING TO HIS OWN LABOR." In other words, when the Day of Judgment comes and EVERYTHING is revealed, it will be shown that although those murdering Muslims took away the Lord's church at that locale, still, that preacher did his part - his labor or work - of obeying the Lord's command to use his talent of preaching the word - and his OBEDIENCE to the word of Christ will be what SAVES him! (This is what we've been pointing out all along, Heb. 5:9)

And this same, exact principle applies to us today - God has given to each one of us special talents or abilities that we are to use to the building up of the Lord's church in our locale. In doing so, we are doing what we were "created in Christ Jesus to do" in the first place - "good works" (Eph. 2:10).

Therefore, your attempt to make this verse teach that baptism is not necessary for salvation shows that you don't really understand what the passage is teaching. It teaches, or implies, no such thing.

And just one final thing here, Mr. Moore: If you think that this passage in 1 Cor. 3 - or any other passage - teaches the principle that works have nothing to do with being saved, then, knowing that God's word does not contradict itself, would you please harmonize your view of 1 Cor. 3:5-15 with the words of Jesus in Matt. 25:41-46?"

Your passage shows nothing that would indicate that Judgement Day isn't where we are judged worthy of salvation or not.



We already have a clear example of what will happen on Judgement Day in Matt 25:31-46

First, we must establish that this is speaking of Judgement Day:

31) "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
32) Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats,

Jesus comes in all His glory, all the angels will be with Him, and all the nations will be gathered before Him. This is Judgement Day. So now the question is what happens on Judgement Day? The answer starts in the last part of verse 32:

32) ...and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats,
33) and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left.

So, Jesus will seperate them - the sheep will be at His right hand, and the goats at His left. This is what will happen on Judgement Day. Now, what happens to those at the right and left hands?

The sheep at the right hand (verse 34):
34) Then the King will say to those at his right hand, 'Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world;

The sheep were seperated from the goats by being judged and the sheep were told to inherit Heaven. Tell me that has no bearing on salvation!!??

So, what happens to the goats at the left hand? Verse 41:

41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;

The goats were seperated from the sheep, being judged, and were thrown into Hell! So, explain to me again how Judgement Day isn't to determine who is saved and who is not? We have a clear example of Judgement Day, and what happens on that Day. People were gathered, seperated (by being JUDGED), and sent to either Heaven or Hell.

HopeofGlory
July 18th, 2002, 10:22 PM
Water Baptism first occurred with John the Baptist. We must consider why it was done and who it was done to. Let’s believe in God’s word rightly dividing without adding anything to it.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

John 1:31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.

Manifest means to readily perceive with the eye or the understanding.
Baptism with water is to immerse in water.
Israel not to the Gentiles! Because the Jews would not believe unless they received a sign.

1 Corinthians 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

The manifestation of Jesus to Israel as their Messiah was completed with the gathering of all the Jewish nations under heaven at Pentecost. Therefore the kingdom message that began with the Baptist fulfilled it course with Peter (Acts 2:38). Jesus instructed the apostles to not go to the Gentiles (Mat 10:5) and the Pentecostal experience was strictly Jewish proving that God’s word must be fulfilled.

The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:) Acts 10:36 (KJV)
That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; Acts 10:37 (KJV)
How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. Acts 10:38 (KJV)
And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree: Acts 10:39 (KJV)

Peter and John preached the same “word” of a baptism of repentance for remission of sins in a kingdom message to Israel and it was not to be delivered to Gentiles.

With the above understanding we turn to Paul who was separated unto the gospel (Roms 1:1) and sent to the Gentiles (Acts 9:15). Now if Paul is separated unto the gospel and sent to Gentiles it can not be with the same message that Jesus said was NOT to be delivered to Gentiles.

God’s word is again fulfilled concerning His messengers....

And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision. Gal. 2:9 (KJV)

Paul was sent NOT to baptize! Is it any wonder why?

1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

Wasn't it the Jews that require a sign and the Greeks seek after wisdom?

Paul is telling us he no longer baptizes but was sent by Christ to preach the gospel of grace by faith. Why? Because he would make the cross of Christ of non effect. Paul is not concerned here with those that are saved but those that are not saved. His fear is that they would believe in water baptism unto salvation thus making Christ’s death for their sins of non effect.

All who deliver the gospel of the kingdom with it’s doctrine of water baptism to Gentiles are in direct disobedience to Christ Jesus.

In Christ
Craig

Evangelion
July 19th, 2002, 01:05 AM
The fact that Paul wasn't specifically commissioned to baptise, is irrelevant. The bottom line is that he did it anyway. :rolleyes:

Paul explains why baptism wasn't his forte - it's because he was the groundbreaker, spreading the good news. The brethren who followed after him (notably Apollos), consolidated the fledgling ecclesias which had sprung up in Paul's wake, ministered to the new converts, and baptised many new ones.

c.moore
July 19th, 2002, 04:25 PM
Quote Kevin
But in v. 14, Paul says that though a person's work may be "burned up" and he "suffers loss," he himself will be saved. What does he mean? The following example will show the principle he is teaching:

Preachers have gone into Africa and planted the seed of God's word through preaching. In so doing, they have planted churches where they did not exist before; where Christians meet together to worship and help each other in carrying out God's will in their life over in that part of the world. Therefore, these preachers have performed a good "labor" or "work" there. Some of these churches continue on. But in certain places, Muslims have stormed in and murdered the Christians, destroyed their place of worship, and driven the rest from their homes and villages and scattered them abroad. Therefore, although the church does not meet at that particular place anymore because Muslims forcibly prevent the church from existing there, yet he who labored there in planting the word and getting the Lord's church started may suffered the loss of his work, but he himself will be saved, "yet so as through fire" (v. 15). What fire? The "fire" spoken of in v. 13 - "each one's work will become manifest; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it was."

And remember, in conjunction with the above thought, v. 8 says - "each one will receive his own reward ACCORDING TO HIS OWN LABOR." In other words, when the Day of Judgment comes and EVERYTHING is revealed, it will be shown that although those murdering Muslims took away the Lord's church at that locale, still, that preacher did his part - his labor or work - of obeying the Lord's command to use his talent of preaching the word - and his OBEDIENCE to the word of Christ will be what SAVES him! (This is what we've been pointing out all along, Heb. 5:9)


quote c.moore

what book did you get this from about the muslims????????


the bible says we are adopted into Christ family, and we are sons and daughters, I think that is greater than an preacher.

Hope can A group of muslim come against us when greater is that which is in us than he that is in the world.


Isa:54:17: No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.

Where did you get this story about the preacher works????

ServantofChrist took verse out of context , and added his own story to it about muslims, don`t tell me you believe the story. I hope you know better.

c.moore
July 20th, 2002, 05:08 AM
Hel kevin

1Co:3:1: And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

I would like to put this in a carnal interpretaion for you kevin so you might see the truth of the context of 1Cor3 praise God, and you might also see how servantof christ screwed the interpretaion up, and you went for the bait.


1Co:3:5: Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, butministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?

this is saying that we as christians and spiritual follower and diciple of Christ are witnesses, and minister like Paul and Apollos.

1Co:3:6: I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

I hope you don`t try to fit this in you water baptism doctrine and belief that this is a water baptism verse because we have again watered in this verse and it means ,or is proof that Apollos baptized and God made a harvest of people to get baptized.:rolleyes:
I just interpretated in a flip flop way, to show how we can turn scripture to be what we want it to be like your water baptismo belief. But let me go on with the truth, this means Paul prayed and believed and taught to Apollos to be a minister and take the Word of God to the people and God made the peole grow and be fruitful.
1Co:3:7: So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

Again this is not water baptism, this is about God doing the final works, not works we can do .
We are just the tools and the one that uses us as His tool he get`s the honor. It`s like playing a guitar, the guitar is just a tool to make music, but the guitar player profits from playing the guitar,all the guitar has to do is just stay in tune, so almost is it by us and God.

1Co:3:8: Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

Look you see that this verse says every man and women including you and me ,it say not every preacher, or missinary like servantofchrist misinterpretate.

1Co:3:9: For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

Just that you don`t think some excuse that paul is talking to everybody or every human being in this chapter, he is speaking too those that are believers in Chrsit that are married to Jesus, and as long as we witness the good news we are builders for the kingdom of God according also to Ac:1:8: But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall .be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.be witnesses

1Co:3:10: According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let [/SIZevery man ] take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

this is that every christian is being a builder or witness for the church.

1Co:3:12: Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

Again we see any man not any preacher or missinary, thisa is meaning us christians.

1Co:3:13: Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

for the day is meaning the judgement day works will be tested for us christians. no where mention about a sepration of sheeps and goats.

1Co:3:14: If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

This is meaning us christians and followers of Christ not preachers only , notice the any person that is a believer which Christ is in them. The verse also says about a reward not damnation.

1Co:3:15: If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

this is the key to or judgement is that we will be judge for our rewards, but we as believers , with Christ living in us will be saved.

This is no way meaning pastors, preachers,or missionarys it means christians in general that are spiritual born again praise God.
When the verse didn`t have any man in it I could see servantofchrist point , but he missed the point completly and made his own theology over the scriptures .

Some people will enter into heaven but just with a white robe .
I would rather be a christian like God wants to be like those in Re:4:4: And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Re:7:9: After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

I know I will get attacked on this as only being a symbol or something,"but" this takes spiritual discernment to understand Kevin.
Let me stay on the carnal level, it make sence to the flesh.

1Co:3:1: And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

1Co:3:16: Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Here is proof that paul was talking t believers and God lives in us as his temple, and this is not only preachers and missionary that is attacked by muslims:rolleyes:

M't:25:34: Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

How can we do works for something God already gave us even before the world was created to come into the kingdom of God??:confused:

No wounder the bible says we are choosen children not children working for salvation.

M't:25:46: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

"But" who are the righteous Kevin that has eternal life??:confused:
Ro:3:10: As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Ro:3:11: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Ro:3:12: They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

but I do see we are ONLY righteous through Jesus without works but through believing ONLY biblically.

Ro:4:4: Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Ro:4:5: But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Ro:4:6: Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Ro:5:19: For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


Praise God!

Kevin
July 20th, 2002, 04:45 PM
c.moore,


quote c.moore

what book did you get this from about the muslims????????

ServantofChrist didn't get this from any book (that I know of). He used this as an example, or illustration of that the 1Cor passages are speaking of. It's like when you likened baptism to being the ring and believing to being married. "What book did you get that from?"


Where did you get this story about the preacher works????

Again, this is an example that he is using to try to illustrate the meaning of the 1Cor passages. Where did you get the story about the rocking chair and having the faith that it won't break when you sit in it (or something like that). More than once you have come up with examples to try to illustrate your point. This is all that ServantofChrist is trying to do here. Why can't you see that, when you do the same thing?


ServantofChrist took verse out of context

No, he didn't. He illustrated how one can have his works burned up and still be saved, but at the same time, this does NOT excuse us from obeying the commandments of God, of which one of them is baptism!


1Co:3:8: Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

Look you see that this verse says every man and women including you and me ,it say not every preacher, or missinary like servantofchrist misinterpretate.

ServantofChrist didn't limit the meaning of those passages to only those examples! Where did he say that it only applies to preachers and missionaries? They are examples, not a list of who this applies to!

If I say that Johnny went to the store and bought some soap, does this mean that only Johnny can buy soap, because that the only person I mentioned? NO! I just gave an example of somebody buying some soap!


1Co:3:13: Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

for the day is meaning the judgement day works will be tested for us christians.

There is a big difference between somebody doing His commandments and having them burned up, vs. someobdy who doesn't do God's commandments in the first place. This does NOT excuse us from having to do His commandments! All we can do is DO His commandments, and if those works are burned up, then it's not going to effect our salvation, because we have done them in the first place. If we don't do His commandments, we won't get to heaven (1 John 2:4).


no where mention about a sepration of sheeps and goats. Are you suggesting that Matt. 25:31-32 is not referring to Judgement Day?


This is no way meaning pastors, preachers,or missionarys it means christians in general ...

Here is proof that paul was talking t believers and God lives in us as his temple, and this is not only preachers and missionary that is attacked by muslims

See above. :rolleyes: You need to realize that examples are exactly what they are: examples, not a confined, rigid list! If I give the example that a Lamborghini can exceed 150 mph, does that mean that I'm saying that ONLY the Lamborghini can exceed this speed?!!? NO!


M't:25:34: Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

How can we do works for something God already gave us even before the world was created to come into the kingdom of God??

Hehehe... don't try to flip flop on me now, I've already gotten you to acknowledge that it was mans lack of works that sent them to hell. You just can't get around that.


M't:25:46: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

For what reason(s) were these people sent into everlasting punishment? :)


but I do see we are ONLY righteous through Jesus without works but through believing ONLY biblically.

But what you DON'T see is that we are not righteous if we believe in Jesus, yet do not keep His commandments! (1 John 2:4)

agape
July 20th, 2002, 05:03 PM
Originally posted by Evangelion
The fact that Paul wasn't specifically commissioned to baptise, is irrelevant. The bottom line is that he did it anyway.I think you got this one backwards. The fact that he baptized only a few is irrevelant. The bottom line is that he was specifically commissioned to preach the good new of gospel of Christ which resulted in many being spirit baptized by Christ. ;)

Evangelion
July 20th, 2002, 08:37 PM
ROTFL. Nice try. HopeOfGlory had argued that baptism isn't necessary because Paul "was not sent to baptise."

I have since demonstrated that this is false. :p

drbrumley
July 20th, 2002, 09:08 PM
Evangelion,


HopeOfGlory had argued that baptism isn't necessary because Paul "was not sent to baptise."

Yes!!!!!!!!!


I have since demonstrated that this is false

Oh really???? Where??? All I see is am opinion by you.

HopeofGlory
July 20th, 2002, 10:13 PM
I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost (Spirit). Mark 1:8 (KJV)

Then there arose a question between some of John’s disciples and the Jews about purifying. John 3:25 (KJV)

John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven. John 3:27 (KJV)

Water baptism can profit a man nothing yet Spirit baptism gives birth to eternal life.

He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all. John 3:31 (KJV)
And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony. John 3:32 (KJV)

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. John 3:5 (KJV)
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6 (KJV)
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. John 3:7 (KJV)


Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. John 3:11 (KJV)

If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? John 3:12 (KJV)

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16 (KJV)

Drink ye all of it; Matt. 26:27 (KJV)
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Matt. 26:28 (KJV)

Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:54 (KJV)

When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? John 6:61 (KJV)

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life (eternal). John 6:63 (KJV)
But there are some of you that believe not. John 6:64 (KJV)

Jesus never command the apostles to water baptize!!! He commanded them to teach!!!!!
This command must be understood in the light of Mark 1:8 and the words Jesus spoke....
For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. Acts 1:5 (KJV)

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Matt. 28:19 (KJV)
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. Matt. 28:20 (KJV)

To teach the "spirit" words of His shed blood!!! When he told the apostles....the words that I speak unto you, they are "spirit", and they are life. He was referring to...Whoso eateth my flesh, and """drinketh""" my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day (John 6:54). To be born again by the Spirit (See 2 Cor 3:17) is to believe the spirit words of Christ.

This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the "Spirit" that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 1 John 5:6 (KJV)
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and "these three are one". 1 John 5:7 (KJV)
And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. 1 John 5:8 (KJV)

The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are the three in heaven that bear witness by the Spirit in earth to men as to the death of Christ at the cross for remission when He shed His blood of the new testament. The three that bear witness in the earth are the Spirit (three are one), water, and the blood.

When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. John 19:30 (KJV)
But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. John 19:34 (KJV)
And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe. John 19:35 (KJV)

So, when we believe the "spirit words of His cross" witness by the Father ,Son, and Holy Ghost to the inner man we are baptized by the Spirit. Thus believing the spirit words of Christ baptizes us by His Spirit, we clearly see...Go ye therefore, and teach (the words that are spirit) all nations, baptizing (by one Spirit (1 Cor 12:13) all them that believe (John 19:35) in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

For "by one (three are one) Spirit" are we ALL "baptized" into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to "drink (blood see John 6:54)" into one Spirit. 1 Cor. 12:13 (KJV)

God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Heb. 1:1 (KJV)
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Heb. 1:2 (KJV)
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Heb. 1:3 (KJV)

Now the Lord is that Spirit (that we all are baptized by): and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty (free from the law of sin). 2 Cor. 3:17 (KJV)
But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. 2 Cor. 3:18 (KJV)

I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost (Spirit). Mark 1:8 (KJV)

In Christ
Craig

Pilgrimagain
July 20th, 2002, 10:24 PM
has anyone really added anything new or unique tot his argumetn since say about page 3?

Evangelion
July 21st, 2002, 12:18 AM
Yeah, me! I brought up the "blood of Christ shed for remission of sins" stuff, and a few other things. :up:

:D

Evangelion
July 21st, 2002, 12:20 AM
Hey, drbrumley - here's the skinny:

I proved that Paul did indeed baptise. (Why would he do this if it wasn't necessary?)

I have explained why Paul was not sent to baptise. (Indeed, he tells us himself!)

Since the Dispy argument relies on the assumption that Paul did not believe it was necessary to baptise, and the false claim that he did not baptise, and since both arguments are refuted by Paul's own testimony...

...I have proved my point and disproved HopeOfGlory's.

Game over. Insert coin.

:D

Evangelion
July 21st, 2002, 12:25 AM
Important message for all Dispys.

Read this:

Acts 10:47-48. (NIV.)
Then Peter said, "Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have."
So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

We've got water, we've got the Holy Spirit, and we've got Peter insisting that these people should be baptised in water.

So much for "Acts 9 Dispy-ism"!

Hah! :p

agape
July 21st, 2002, 07:08 AM
Originally posted by Evangelion
We've got water, we've got the Holy Spirit, and we've got Peter insisting that these people should be baptised in water. Acts 1:5: For John truly baptized with water, BUT [CONTRAST] YE SHALL BE BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST NOT MANY DAYS HENCE.

You just can't get away from the truth, Evangelion. I see you totally ignore chapter 11...wonder why?

Acts 11:15-17:
And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

[b]Then remembered I the WORD OF THE LORD, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; BUT ye shall be BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST.

Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as [he did] unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; WHAT WAS I THAT I COULD WITHSTAND GOD?

And so, Evangelion, with that he went and "insisted" they be water baptized...Yeah right, lol...only in your dreams or should I say PI.

God's Word is a lot bigger than your "hah." :p

Evangelion
July 21st, 2002, 07:24 AM
So... you won't comment on Acts 10? Can't tell me why Peter called for water, so that these people who had received the Holy Spirit, might be baptised with water? Can't explain why water baptism was still necessary, even after they'd received the Holy Spirit.

No surprises there... :p

agape
July 21st, 2002, 08:02 AM
Originally posted by Evangelion
So... you won't comment on Acts 10?That's all I've done...lol...where have you been?

Can't tell me why Peter called for water, so that these people who had received the Holy Spirit, might be baptised with water?Again, I gave a whole big explanation on that. Where you been?

Can't explain why water baptism was still necessary, even after they'd received the Holy Spirit.I explained why water baptism is NOT NECESSARY after the New Birth. HOWEVER, YOU ARE THE "ONE" WHO HAS YET TO PROVE WHY WATER BAPTISM "IS NECESSARY" AFTER BAPTISM WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT.

No surprises there... :p

JustAChristian
July 21st, 2002, 12:07 PM
Originally posted by agape
I think you got this one backwards. The fact that he baptized only a few is irrevelant. The bottom line is that he was specifically commissioned to preach the good new of gospel of Christ which resulted in many being spirit baptized by Christ. ;)

Agape,
You are speculating! You THINK that Christ will baptize believers with the Holy Spirit but you can't come up with a biblical basis for your belief. We have frantically tried to show you how faith and obedience brings salvation, but you are just "too hard headed" to listen to reason. Therefore, let the Bible talk to you...

Peter told the brethren at Jerusalem after returning from preaching at the house of Cornelius of the salvation of the family of believers saying "...and he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith." (Acts 15:9).

In his general epistle to all the church Peter says of salvation saying..." Seeing ye have purified your souls in your obedience to the truth unto unfeigned love of the brethren, love one another from the heart fervently: having been begotten again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of God, which liveth and abideth." (1 Peter 1:22-23).

1. On the one hand Peter says Cornelius and his family that believed were PURIFIED by faith...

2. On the other hand he telles the church in general they ... have purified your souls in your obedience to the truth ...

Do we have a conflict here in statements? Do we have a contridiction? No, because when one has faith in Christ, the faith culminates in complete obedience. There must be a doing of the things required of Christ. These are "works of righteousness". Only then is there purification of the soul. The Psalmist said...Who shall dwell in thy holy hill? He that walketh uprightly, and worketh righteousness, (Psalms 15:1-2a).

As a last admonition let me say: "...whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honorable, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things." (Phil. 4:8).

JustAChristian

agape
July 21st, 2002, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by JustAChristian


Agape,
You are speculating!No, I don't practice what you do.
You THINK that Christ will baptize believers with the Holy Spirit but you can't come up with a biblical basis for your belief.I guess you can't read.

We have frantically tried to show you how faith and obedience brings salvationWithout any proof text whatsoever...only your erroneous PIs.

but you are just "too hard headed" to listen to reason.I'm very hard-headed when it comes to standing on the truth and accuracy of God's Word and not to your five-sense reasonings. :D

Peter told the brethren at Jerusalem after returning from preaching at the house of Cornelius of the salvation of the family of believers saying "...and he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith." (Acts 15:9).Their hearts were cleansed by their baptism with the holy spirit.

In his general epistle to all the church Peter says of salvation saying..." Seeing ye have purified your souls in your obedience to the truth unto unfeigned love of the brethren, love one another from the heart fervently: having been begotten again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of God, which liveth and abideth." (1 Peter 1:22-23).They purified themselves by doing the truth with a view toward loving their brethren and one another from their hearts because they were begotten, born again of God's Spirit which is the incorruptible seed of God. They were able to do this because of the salvation they received when they believed in Christ and received the gift of holy spirit. At the time of the New Birth, the love of God was shed abroad in their hearts and they walked in this love toward one another.

On the one hand Peter says Cornelius and his family that believed were PURIFIED by faith...

2. On the other hand he telles the church in general they ... have purified your souls in your obedience to the truth ...

Do we have a conflict here in statements? Do we have a contridiction? No, because when one has faith in Christ, the faith culminates in complete obedience. There must be a doing of the things required of Christ. These are "works of righteousness". Only then is there purification of the soul. The Psalmist said...Who shall dwell in thy holy hill? He that walketh uprightly, and worketh righteousness, (Psalms 15:1-2a).There goes the familiar "twisting of God's Word" again. After we are saved, born again and have received eternal life through our faith in Christ, we are to follow after the righteousness of God in us UNTO good works. Good works follow salvation...they do not get us salvation. Salvation comes through FAITH (ALONE...NO WORKS).

Therefore, let the Bible talk to you, JAC...

Ephesians 2:4-8:
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

And hath raised [past tense] [us] up together, and made [past tense] [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:

That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that NOT OF YOURSELVES: [it is] the gift of God:

As a last admonition let me say: "...whatsoever things are TRUE....think on these things." ;)