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beloved57
November 21st, 2009, 11:33 AM
Eph 3:7-11

7Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

8Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

Col 1:14-16

14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

The creation of the world was Soterilogical and Redemptive for all intents and purposes..

Gen 1:1

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

This is where God begins to manifest a Divine Eternal Purpose, which He eons afore time, purposed in Himself, the Triune God..

This Eternal Purpose was predicated upon God manifesting His redemptive [from sin] wisdom of His Chosen People, the Vessels of Mercy Rom 9:23..

Hence from all eternity God, That the world He created through Jesus Christ Eph 3:9 would be for the display of His manifold wisdom and grace in the redemption of Chosen lost sinners. Eph 3:10

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

For the execution and accomplishment of this Eternal Purpose, God has sovereignly controlled the world from its beginning, and will continue until its consummation, and time will be no more.

All that happens in this world, mysteriously has Soteriological and or Redemptive meaning, that which is both good and evil is included. All has been ordained by God and serves to operate into the displaying the manifold Wisdom of God in the Salvation or Redemption of the Church and His Glorification Through Jesus Christ !

PlastikBuddha
November 21st, 2009, 02:02 PM
To display the eternal idiocy of the lobotomized demiurge you are blasphemous enough to call "God"?

beloved57
November 22nd, 2009, 02:05 AM
So all that happens in this world both good and evil, plays a subordinate role or a supporting role in the redemptive grand scheme of things. Paul understood this sublime truth when He wrote to Timothy 2 Tim 2:10

10Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Notice, he endured all things for the elects sake, not everyone in the world, but the chosen ones, that they [ the elect] might obtain salvation [ an experiential knowledge] of that which is in Christ Jesus..

also 2 Thess 2:2

14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

hence all the sin and evil thats in the world today, from the garden of eden, was purposed by God from all eternity, for it was no mistake, or accident that Adam sinned, but all was in pursuit to this end:

Rev 5:12-14

12Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.


13And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

14And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

Rev 7:9-12

9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;


10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

11And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

12Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

Yes, it was to this end, that creation came into existence, with all its sin and shame, Oh what wisdom and Power..

Rev 4:10-11

10The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

11Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Arthur Brain
November 22nd, 2009, 02:16 AM
So does this eternal purpose incorporate every aborted foetus, every miscarriage and every dead infant/child into the elect?

beloved57
November 22nd, 2009, 08:47 AM
So does this eternal purpose incorporate every aborted foetus, every miscarriage and every dead infant/child into the elect?

we already are discussing that..though its possible, its not certain, all those could have been non elect as well, and consequently would go to hell for their sin in the their head, which would be satan..all the non elect, wether fetus or 100 yr old person, sinned initially in the devil their Father..

Then some could have been elect..we dont know..

beloved57
December 17th, 2009, 10:54 PM
Eph 1:4

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

2 Tim 1:9

9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Rev 13:
8
8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Eph 3:9-11

9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

Col 1:17-17

15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

All such verses and passages as above, If understood properly, makes it abundantly clear, that the world, the universe was founded for mans existence to fulfill Gods Eternal Purpose centered in Christ Jesus !

Arthur Brain
December 17th, 2009, 10:59 PM
we already are discussing that..though its possible, its not certain, all those could have been non elect as well, and consequently would go to hell for their sin in the their head, which would be satan..all the non elect, wether fetus or 100 yr old person, sinned initially in the devil their Father..

Then some could have been elect..we dont know..

How can a foetus, or lets even say a zygote have any "sin in their head"?! :freak:

Your own personal belief system is monstrous. :Plain:

freelight
December 19th, 2009, 09:13 PM
~*~*~

The eternal purpose of creation is the mind and heart of Infinite Intelligence engaging itself, by multiplying, in-dividing and expanding itself, in the experience of "relativity", the One becoming "many"...and thru the manifold complexity of relationships discovering and unfolding its innate potentials of Love and Light.




pj

elohiym
December 19th, 2009, 09:33 PM
So does this eternal purpose incorporate every aborted foetus, every miscarriage and every dead infant/child into the elect?

We discussed that at least once before on TOL. It was an interesting discussion that developed from a thread I started. You can read it here: Do all dead babies go to heaven (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51835)?

OMEGA
December 19th, 2009, 10:34 PM
THE PURPOSE OF LIFE - WHERE MAN CAME FROM

As you look at our Solar System, you see that the planets are in pairs of smilar sized orbs.
Earth and Venus are almost the same size, Jupiter and Saturn are similar in size
as is Uranus and Neptune. But when you look at Mars, it only has the Meteor Belt.
What happened to the Planet that was probably there. The Scientists say that there
is not enough Mass to make up a Planet out of the Meteors and Comets there.
What happened to the rest of the Planet is a Mystery that may be answered here.

About 20 Billion years ago Two Energy Beings we know as GOD with their vast accumulated
knowledge decided to create other beings like themselves. The Creators started
with simpler Energy Beings of lesser qualities until they finally created a
being similar to themselves full of wisdom and knowledge. His name was Lucifer.

As time progressed the millions of created beings helped in designing and
creating vast star making structures made out of swirling gas that would compact
hydrogen and helium gas into balls of burning gas of tremendous size that we call stars.
Over millions of years a star cools and as the Hydrogen burns off, the Helium, under Fusion
first forms Carbon molecules and after forming many other molecules
and finally forms Nickle and Iron Molecules. Then under its own immense pressure
the star shrinks to a brown dwarf and finally forms a planet.

The Energy Beings studied these planets to see what could be created out of the chemicals
that were formed there. They created many things similar to what we have today
on this planet . They also created the rudiments of physical life on other
planets where conditions were just right. Some Energy Beings developed
life forms and genetically experimented with them over millions of years.

Because the Universe was so large, God wanted more and more beings
to contol it. How was he to accomplish this. God decided to make animals
that mass produce and later change them into Spirit beings.
As time went on Lucifer started to have confllicts when God told him
that these animals would eventually have Authority over him.
He did not want to be subservient to an Animal that he had genetically engineered.
He became frustrated and angry and eventually thought that God was wrong
to do this. . When he was rebuked, he became vengeful toward them
and planned to destroy the Earth Animals by blowing up a nearby planet as it
came near to Mars. So Lucifer and his Army moved the orbit of the other Planet
so that it hit Marsand blew up and broke appart . It blew
everything off of Mars including all the atmosphere and the water which flew off
into space and accumulated on the other planets of Jupiter and Saturn.
Large pieces of the broken planet traveled throughout the solar system causing
havoc and destruction.
Huge Comets pummelled Earth and pushed the flat ground into large deep craters.The
Earth was moved off its axis and the poles melted. Where there had been rivers
and streams, there were now Oceans. and seas. Everything was under water and it
stayed that way for millions of years.

After blowing up that planet, Lucifer took his Army and tried to take over
control of the Universe by attacking the Creators.
He was defeated and imprisoned along with his Army on the Earth.
-----------------------------------------------------------
The Creators had a Problem.
What were they going to do if the other Angels decided to Rebel too ?
How could they make them understand that Rebellion was not the Way to go ?

So, The Creators went off to another Solar System and continued the project
and genetically engineered a physical being made out of the chemicals
of the planet which could be controlled.
After millions of years of developing and studying these physical beings
in a balanced environment, the Creators worked out a plan.
Because Lucifer Rebelled and wanted to rule the Universe
they gave him these physical beings to Rule over.
The Creators gave the physical beings a choice either to follow them or Lucifer.

After absorbing the fruit contaminated with Lucifers Perverted energy, the people were
more spiritually connected to Lucifer and kept drifting away from The Creators.
The physical beings suffered and died on this Earth because Lucifer caused them
to go to war with each other.
In fact , he Hated them because he realized that they were going to be in The
Creators' Government and he and his army were going to be rejected and locked up
for a long long time .

Jesus later gave the physical beings who followed HIM, HIS
Mental Character Spirit that HE had built when HE was on the Earth,
to help them fight and overcome Satan's evil Mindset.
Their Reward for Overcoming the pulls of this Satanic world,
would be Immortality and Membership in The Creators
Universal Government.
============================================

Nick M
December 19th, 2009, 11:41 PM
THE PURPOSE OF LIFE - WHERE MAN CAME FROM

About 20 Billion years ago Two Energy Beings we know as GOD with their vast accumulated
knowledge decided to create other beings like themselves. The Creators started
with simpler Energy Beings of lesser qualities until they finally created a
being similar to themselves full of wisdom and knowledge. His name was Lucifer.


The energy beam is back. :banana: How many years has it been?

torrent85
December 20th, 2009, 12:04 AM
Eternal purpose of creation is to bring Glory to God.

This is everything the evil bring glory to God's justice and judgment. The Love bring glory though love and obedience.

Grayven
December 20th, 2009, 12:07 AM
interesting story. have any evidence?

Arthur Brain
December 20th, 2009, 01:05 AM
Eternal purpose of creation is to bring Glory to God.

This is everything the evil bring glory to God's justice and judgment. The Love bring glory though love and obedience.

Are you so much less evil than your neighbour?

torrent85
December 20th, 2009, 01:09 AM
Are you so much less evil than your neighbour?
In the eyes of man no. To God I am perfect, blameless, and without sin.

OMEGA
December 20th, 2009, 07:25 PM
GRAYVEN,

ITS ALL IN THE BIBLE - READ IT.

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God,
a workman that needeth not to be ashamed,
rightly dividing the word of truth.

Job 32:8 But there is a spirit in man:
and the inspiration of the Almighty
giveth them understanding.

beloved57
December 21st, 2009, 02:41 PM
If the Lord Jesus christ in the Eternal Mind of God, was slain from or before the foundation of the world [ Rev 13:8], before the world was created and existed, then it serves to reason, that it [ the world] was created for His Eternal Purpose of redemption Eph 3:11

11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

which means the entrance of sin and mans redemption from it, was all part of His Eternal Purpose and plan for the world. Sin entering into the world by adam was not a deviation of Gods Eternal purpose but included within it and necessary to make manifest the wisdom of the eternal purpose..Eph 3:9-10

9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

Letsargue
December 21st, 2009, 02:54 PM
If the Lord Jesus christ in the Eternal Mind of God, was slain from or before the foundation of the world [ rev 13:8], before the world was created and existed, then it serves to reason, that it [ the world] was created for His Eternal Purpose of redemption eph 3:

11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

which means the entrance of sin and mans redemption from it, was all part of His eternal purpose and plan for the world. Sin entering into the world by adam was not a deviation of Gods Eternal purpose but included within it and necessary to make manifest the wisdom of the eternal purpose..eph 3:

9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,



The carnal Creation is the only THING that does not have a GLORY of it's own. The making of the New Heavens and the New Earth which is the Old creation, baptized and raised a New Heavens and a New Earth.

The New, always have the supreme Glory of God.
Peace.

Paul – 122109

ebedadonai
December 21st, 2009, 03:17 PM
I always refer Dabney on this subject...

"In my opinion this is a question which never ought to have been raised." --Dabney on Supralapsarian and Sublapsarian

Both positions have their supporters, and both sides offer excellent arguments, but at the end of the day, I feel it's folly to exhaustively understand the mind of God. I think this is one of those subjects that Scripture is less than clear.

beloved57
December 21st, 2009, 03:39 PM
The carnal Creation is the only THING that does not have a GLORY of it's own. The making of the New Heavens and the New Earth which is the Old creation, baptized and raised a New Heavens and a New Earth.

The New, always have the supreme Glory of God.
Peace.

Paul – 122109

Do you know why God created the earth ?

OMEGA
December 21st, 2009, 05:41 PM
BELOVED57,

Tell us why God created the Earth.
---------------------------
Re 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
--------------------

beloved57
December 21st, 2009, 05:54 PM
omega:


BELOVED57,

Tell us why God created the Earth.

Why dont you read the thread !

OMEGA
December 22nd, 2009, 03:24 PM
BELOVED777

WHY did God make the Earth ???

I think that you mean What was God's Purpose in Remaking Mankind on the Earth
after Satan destroyed the first men because he did not want to be ruled by the
animals that he had genetically created for God over the past million years.

Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Eph 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
=================:sheep::sheep:=================

The basic answer being that, because God has to spend time making each Angel individually and because of the vastness of the created physical Universe, God wanted a creature with the ability to Mass Produce itself, so that, later He could just turn them into Angels.

God gave the Job of Genetically creating and modifying the Animals
to make and develop humans on this Earth but Lucifer eventually rebelled and caused huge asteroids to destroy them by blowing up the planet near Mars and the whole Earth was partially destroyed and inundated with water. So, God went somewhere else and finished the project
and NOW, with the added benefit of Satan and his buddies, is developing
Resistence to Rebellion in us Christians.
So, instead of minor Angels , we are going to become Ruling Spirit Beings.

That is the Secret Mystery that God makes known to those who are His .

============================

beloved57
December 22nd, 2009, 04:04 PM
omega:


BELOVED777

WHY did God make the Earth ?

Read the Thread, I answered that..

OMEGA
December 22nd, 2009, 04:15 PM
I just clarified it for the readers and gave them the Chronology.

beloved57
December 22nd, 2009, 04:24 PM
I just clarified it for the readers and gave them the Chronology.

Why do you keep asking me a question that I have answered from my perspective already ?

bybee
December 22nd, 2009, 04:35 PM
we already are discussing that..though its possible, its not certain, all those could have been non elect as well, and consequently would go to hell for their sin in the their head, which would be satan..all the non elect, wether fetus or 100 yr old person, sinned initially in the devil their Father..

Then some could have been elect..we dont know..

Is that and editorial "We" or a royal "we"? Explain how a fetus could sin? bybee

beloved57
December 22nd, 2009, 06:06 PM
bybee says:


Explain how a fetus could sin?

Show us the post where I said a fetus could sin please ?

And after you show us that, please get back to the topic of the OP if you can..

bybee
December 23rd, 2009, 04:10 AM
we already are discussing that..though its possible, its not certain, all those could have been non elect as well, and consequently would go to hell for their sin in the their head, which would be satan..all the non elect, wether fetus or 100 yr old person, sinned initially in the devil their Father..

Then some could have been elect..we dont know..

To answer your question, your post #5 on this thread states "whether fetus or 100 yr old person, sinned initially in the devil their Father..". So, I repeat, how does a fetus sin? bybee

beloved57
December 23rd, 2009, 04:46 AM
To answer your question, your post #5 on this thread states "whether fetus or 100 yr old person, sinned initially in the devil their Father..". So, I repeat, how does a fetus sin? bybee

That was in response to a diversion question, and I have aleady answered the question if you can read, that said, I will post the quote so you can read it..

I said :


and consequently would go to hell for their sin in the their head, which would be satan..all the non elect, wether fetus or 100 yr old person, sinned initially in the devil their Father..

So please read next time my whole statement and you may find out why I said it..Now back to the OP, can you handle that or not ? What in the OP you cannot agree with ?

beloved57
January 29th, 2010, 08:55 AM
The world finds its purpose for being created within the eternal purpose of Jesus Christ Eph 3:9-11,6

9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:


10To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

Of which purpose was Redemptive

6That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

For it [ The Eternal Purpose] was regarding the gentiles being partakers of the Gospel promises, which promises were grounded in the blood of the everlasting covenant..

Therefore it is nothing but spiritual blindness that people cannot understand that sin was part of Gods eternal purpose in creating the world, Adam must sin in order for the Eternal purpose of the gentiles being partakers of the gospel promises to be realized..

beloved57
February 7th, 2010, 12:26 PM
Col 1:15-17

15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.


Heb 1:2-3

2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

By whom He [ God the Father ] made the Worlds, The Heir of All Things..

The world was made by Him [ The Heir] and for Him, that is to manifest His redemptive purpose..

The world and all therein, was created for a Divine redemptive purpose, a purpose which entailed the involvement of sin..

The Son [ Jesus Christ, the last Adam] was the Heir of all things and not Adam.

Jesus Christ was the Heir Son that was given Isa 9:6

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given:

This Son was the appointed Heir before being given Jn 3:16

The Son, The Lord Jesus Christ was God's only begotten Son, Heir of all things [ 2 Cor 8:9 ] before He was Mary's baby..

And as Gods only begotten Son, before all worlds, He was appointed Heir of all things, and it was as Heir He was appointed to die, for those who were joint heirs with Him..

If one believes aright that Jesus Christ was God's Son before the incarnation, then they would believe that Jesus Christ was His Heir [ Rom 8:17] before the Incarnation, even before creation and the creation of Adam..

In quoting a passage it is clearly seen that Jesus Christ was the sent Heir Matt 21:37-38

37But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. Notice, My Son, not Mary's Son..

38But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.

Mk 12:6-7


6Having yet therefore one son, his wellbeloved, he sent him also last unto them, saying, They will reverence my son.

7But those husbandmen said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and the inheritance shall be ours.'


Lk 20:13-14

13Then said the lord of the vineyard, What shall I do? I will send my beloved son: it may be they will reverence him when they see him.

14But when the husbandmen saw him, they reasoned among themselves, saying, This is the heir: come, let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours.

You see, its a terrible misunderstanding in man made religion, that Adam was Gods intended heir of the world in the beginning when the world was made, but He was not, The Lord Jesus Christ, The Son of God was, and Adam and all things else were Created for Him and His Eternal Redemptive Purpose..

Eph 3:8-10

8Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

beloved57
February 15th, 2010, 01:39 PM
Col 1:16

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Jn 1:3

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Jn 1:10

He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

When I ponder ponder these verses about Jesus Christ at least three sublime truth's are impressed into my mind:

#1. The Deity and equality of the Christ with the Father

#2. That Jesus Christ the God Man Mediator existed before creation

#3. That sin coming into the world by Adam [ Rom 5:12] was purposed by God, in that the world and all things else were created for and subservient to God's eternal redemptive purpose centering in in Jesus Christ and more specifically His cross Eph 3:9-11


9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

The Lord Jesus Christ's pre existence is also taught in Col 1:16-17

17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

He is before all things

It says also that by Him or in Him all things consist..or all things cohere in Christ..To cohere in Christ is to exist together by christ as the holding center, similar to how the spokes in a wheel are held together by the hub in the center, now understand this is referencing the pre incarnate Christ who is before all things. Notice all things were created for [unto Him]vs 16 which again indicates that Christ is the end unto which creation came into being or was made..

beloved57
February 15th, 2010, 07:12 PM
Now in view of this NT passage Col 1:16-17 and its supporters Jn 1: 3, 10, and not really having even scratched the surface of the Mystery of Christ, He being Creator, how does that square with an OT scripture such as this one Prov 16:4

4The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

The NT says if Christ Col 1:16

16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:


If we look carefully at Prov 16:4 we have none other than Jehovah being set forth as the maker or creator of all things, and all things said to be made for Himself or unto Himself, so we have one inspired writer attributing Creation by and for Christ and another writing that its by and for Jehovah !It there a contradiction here ? By no means, at least not to us who have been given an understanding that the Jehovah in the OT is also the Christ in the NT, remembering such words as Jn 14:8-9

8Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

Notice how Jesus answered this inquiry of Philip, he asked, Lord show us the Father and Jesus replied and said

Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip?

Think about that answer, what was Jesus saying here ? He is basically saying what is said earlier in Jn 10:30

30 I and my Father are one.

You see, The Man Jesus Christ was also the Eternal Logos Jn 1:1 which was One Essence with God the Father, that is Unbegotten and UnCreated.

The Lord Jesus Christ in His Essential Being is Jehovah God and He and the Father are of One Divine Essence.

That Jesus was actually calling Himself God in Jn 10:30,33 is seen by the reaction and comments those Jews made in vs 33

33The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

If we believe Jn 1:1 its perfectly understandable that God The Father and the Word of God are one..and thats what Jesus is referencing to in Jn 10:30.

So there is no contradiction or no misunderstanding in The Lord Jesus Christ being the Creator of all things and they being created for Him, and Jehovah Prov 16:4 being the maker of all things and they being made for Him..

The worship of those in rev 4 applies to both the Lamb and the Father equally Rev 4:10-11

10The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

11Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Now can this apply to Jesus Christ ? read Col 1:16

16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

beloved57
February 16th, 2010, 02:01 PM
Col 1:16

16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

This means all things were created with a redemptive, soterilogical purpose:

#1. Heaven was created for Christ- which includes the third heaven 2 Cor 12:2

2I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.

The heaven as the firmament Gen 1:1-8

1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.


2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

Hebrews tells us too that the heavens are the works of His hand Heb 1:8-10

8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.


9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

Now remember, this creating of the heavens were for a redemptive soterilogical purpose if we believe Col 1:16. God was creating the heaven and the earth in the beginning for the purpose of displaying His redemptive eternal purpose in Christ Eph 3:9-11

9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:


10To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

So the heavens and the earth were made by and for [unto] Christ..

beloved57
February 16th, 2010, 05:39 PM
Not only were the heavens made by and for Jesus Christ, but also #2. The Angels were made for Jesus Christ, both good and evil..

I recall scripture says that when He returns, He will have His Angels with Him Matt 16:27

For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.



Matthew 24:31 (http://www.theologyonline.com/passage/?search=Matthew+24:31&version=KJV)
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

In forming the Eternal Purpose of redemption, God was pleased that the elect Angels [ see 1 Timothy 5:21 (http://www.theologyonline.com/passage/?search=1 Timothy+5:21&version=KJV)] would be employed by Him unto the Heirs of salvation [ see Heb 1:13-14]

note: here: The Heirs of salvation were known and loved by God in His Eternal Purpose from eternity and before they actually existed in time..

The Angels were made by Him and for Him to worship Him Heb 1:5-6


5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

The evil angels too serve Him and His eternal purpose, and He made them also, in Col 1:16 we read:

16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:


For He created or made, brought into existence Thrones, Dominions, Principalities, Powers, and within the scope of these things, are the angelic, heavenly authorities, whether good or evil, and As Jehovah made the wicked [ Prov 16:4] both wicked men and angels are made to serve the Eternal redemptive purpose in Christ..


These principalities, powers and authorities are not limited to heavenly invisible beings, but to also that which is seen here in our under world, human government and authorities as well..

Rom 8:38

For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

Eph 3:10

To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,


Eph 6:12

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Notice, the rulers of darkness of this world , the greek is:

kosmokratōr :

lord of the world, prince of this age

a) the devil and his demons

Jn 12:31

31Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

And we know these are angels.. So all these angels, both good and evil were made by Christ and for Christ to serve His Eternal and Soterilogical Purpose unto the Glory of God..

Even now all these things and creatures and powers and authorities are under His subjection and serving His purpose see 1 Pet 3:22

Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

These authorities and powers have been made subject to Him..

This is the passive voice aorist tense, so its past tense, and the word subject here is the greek word:

hypotassō which means:

to arrange under, to subordinate
2) to subject, put in subjection
3) to subject one's self, obey
4) to submit to one's control
5) to yield to one's admonition or advice
6) to obey, be subject

All these entities good or evil are under His control and obey His Sovereign Power see Matt 28:18

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

How many of us believe to day that all demonic and devilish forces are obeying the risen Christ ? Even while on earth a glimpse of this glory was given and acknowledged : Mk 1:27

And they were all amazed, insomuch that they questioned among themselves, saying, What thing is this? what new doctrine is this? for with authority commandeth he even the unclean spirits, and they do obey him.

You see that, even the unclean spirits, they do obey Him, if then, how much more so in His Glory ?

Look at the activity of unclean spirits ! Matt 12:43-45

43When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.


44Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.

45Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

Do you believe today that these unclean spirits are under the control and obedience of Christ ?

I certainly do, in light of 1 Pet 3:22 it has to be true..

And so, all Angels both good and evil were made by Him and for Him..

Poly
February 16th, 2010, 05:52 PM
Yes, I guess I see where you're coming from but I think you're missing the big picture here.

First, you must deal with the issue of Fonzie claiming to be cool yet he was really about as far away from "cool" as you could possibly get. Now I know you're going to try and bring up the fact that nobody could be that conceited without actually being truly cool but I beg to differ.

Of course I could go off on the whole realization that "Happy Days" was truly a very lame show but that's a whole other topic and I don't want to lose focus on what is being discussed. The real issue here which must be decided once and for all...

Tomatoes... are they a fruit or a vegetable?

beloved57
February 18th, 2010, 12:17 AM
All things that were ever created, were created by and for Christ Col 1:16

16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Hell and the Lake of fire were created for Christ, that hell is a place cannot be denied if one believes the bible, a place where the wicked will be punished eternally both in body and soul. It is apparent that hell was made for the purpose of Christ, when He was appointed in the eternal counsels to reign and to judge the world..

Acts 17:31

31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Matt 25: 31-46; Lets note vs 41

41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

That word prepared is the greek word hetoimazo which means:


to make ready, prepare
to make the necessary preparations, get everything ready
And its in the perfect tense, a once and for all completed act in the past, not to be repeated and continues into the future..

I believe the lake of fire for the devil and His Angels were prepared before creation of the earth, and I believe the kingdom of Glory for the saints was created before the creation of the world..

Notice vs 34

34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world


http://www.studylight.org/com/geb/view.cgi?book=mt&chapter=025&verse=034


http://www.studylight.org/com/geb/view.cgi?book=mt&chapter=25&verse=41#Mt25_41

When it is said that the lake of fire was prepared for the devil and His Angels, I believe included with the devil is all his seed or posterity in Him..

So as Christ and His body or members are One 1 Cor 12:12 so it is with the devil and His seed..

So in essence what I am saying is that the same lake of fire prepared for the devil and his angels was also prepared for His seed because they are one with Him..

This is why it is said in Jude that certain men were before of old written to this condemnation..

And why it is said in Rom 9 vessels of wrath were they made and fitted for destruction..They were made to go to the place made for them before the world began..

The Father prepared for His Son a eternal kingdom, and since He views His seed being one with Him, He likewise prepared for them a kingdom cp Lk 22:29 with Matt 25:34..

But hell was created a prison for the enemies of God and His Christ and their people, all this included in the eternal redemptive purpose of God..

God chose this way to manifest His excellent perfections, to the Glory and Praise of His Grace, and to the Glory and Praise of His Justice..

beloved57
February 19th, 2010, 08:27 AM
Many today believe that this world was made for Adam, but it was not, it was made for Jesus Christ Col 1:16

16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

The world [ Kosmos ] was made by Him ! John 1 :10

10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

The word by here is the greek prep dia which means here:

through

a) the ground or reason by which something is or is not done
1) by reason of
2) on account of
3) because of for this reason
4) therefore
5) on this account

He was the reason, the account of, why the kosmos was made or brought into being..

The creation of the world had a soterilogical purpose which involved salvation from sin..

This world was created for Christ for the display of His natural perfections which entailed him becoming incarnated for the redemption of His people.., for His creative wisdom before the angelic world, for we are told it was He who laid the foundations of the earth Heb 1:10

10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

And they [ the angels] shouted for Joy.. Job 38:4-7

4Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.


5Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God[angels by creation] shouted for joy? note: These would have been the elect angels..

Oh yes, for you skeptics and infidels, the same Lord speaking in job 38 about laying the foundations of the earth is the same Lord that is identified as the Son in Heb 1:8-10 lets read:

8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.


9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

By His Incarnation this world was a place for Him to display all of His God Honoring Moral perfections, the Glories of an Incarnate God Man..and that perfection of which all His redeemed ones have laid to their account and will come to experience in its fulness at His second coming..

This kosmos was created to display the working out of Gods eternal purpose of redemption, the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ being its goal, this purpose from the foundation of the world Rev 13:8

8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain [ in Gods eternal purpose see Eph 3:11] from the foundation of the world..

It was created to be the province of His Mediatorial Kingdom, where His chosen would be prepared by His grace for the entrance into His everlasting kingdom from above..1Pet 5:10-11

10Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

11For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

When this present kosmos order has served its purpose from eternity, Christ will be done with it, its end of creation having been accomplished, then its time for it to be destroyed, the visible heavens being made on fire, will be dissolved and the elements [the elements from which all things have come, the material causes of the universe] shall melt with fervent heat, and the earth as we know it shall be burnt up, and will afterwords be renewed with the perfections of Its Redeemer, the Lord of Glory..The Lord Jesus Christ..

beloved57
February 20th, 2010, 07:44 AM
The human race and all the inhabitants of the world were made for Christ Dan 4:35

35And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

They were created to manifest his ability to form different kinds and order of beings. In creating the inferior beings [ animals] he displayed his ability to create material beings, and their various usefulness to mankind..In the creation of man He showed His ability to make beings who were both material and spiritual, that is the union of the material body with the spiritual and immortal soul..

The humans were created for Christ that he may display His infinite perfections in the redemption of their souls, in this grand display and work is made known the most wonderful display of His perfections which men or angels will ever behold..

Now in creating mankind, they were created for different displays of the Divine Purposes, some of us were created as vessels of mercy, and some of us were created as vessels of wrath per Rom 9:13-24

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.


14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

All men are made within the eternal purpose of the purpose of election Rom 9:11

And within that purpose, we [ from everlasting] are either hated by God or Loved by God vs 13..

Jacob is Representative of all the beloved of God within the purpose of election and Esau is Representative of all the hated of God within the purpose of election..

Each person or group of persons have been made, that is bought into being, to display God's purpose of mercy for sinners or Gods wrath for sinners..

The vessels of wrath vs 22 are also what scripture terms the wicked as in Prov 16:4

4The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

This is not speaking about people who do wicked things, but people whom all their lives, no matter what, whether very religious or non religious, will only be the wicked before God, that is vessels of wrath, created for that purpose..

The elect, are the righteous, even when they are born by nature, wicked in their mind and works..Col 1:21

And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

Now, who are the And You that Paul is addressing here, when he declares, ye were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works !

Let me tell you now, He was not speaking to the those who are called the wicked in Prov 16:4 but He is speaking to the beloved of God..

Lets look at a scripture in col that will confirm this. Col 3:12

Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

This being beloved, was a true fact, while they were alienated and enemies in their minds by wicked works, for they were the beloved of God before they were born into that condition, even from everlasting were they the beloved of God, and never " The wicked " of Prov 16:4

But the beloved of God are born in the sinful condition we are by nature, for the purpose of mercy, thats why Paul says some are vessels of mercy Rom 9:23, this mercy is displayed to them, because of what they are by nature..but, even though that is True by nature, yet are they also the righteous.. The gospel declares righteous all those believing in Jesus Christ, but before God declares one righteous, He must first view you as righteous, and just how is that done ?

2 Cor 5:21

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Everyone Christ was made sin for, [ died for their sins] has been made righteous by God, because their sins, their wicked works, were never laid to their charge 2 Cor 5:19

19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Their sins were not imputed unto them, the word imputed here is the greek word:
logizomai :

to reckon, count, compute, calculate, count over
a) to take into account, to make an account of
1) metaph. to pass to one's account, to impute

Their sins were not laid to their account as the word means here in 2 Tim 4:16

16At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge

So the force of what Paul is saying in 2 Cor 5:19, is that their is a world [ both jews and gentiles] who God does not lay to their charge, all their trespasses and sins that they shall commit. And since they never had their sins laid to their charge, they were not guilty of their crimes, and instead, their head, the Lord Jesus Christ was made to suffer and die for their crimes, because instead of God laying them to their account, He laid them to His account..Isa 53:6

6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

You see, God is too Just, to have laid their sins to their charge, and at the same time laid them to the charge of their shepherd !

And so the non imputation of their sins, was accompanied by the imputation of His righteousness [ their shepherd] to their account, hence they were made righteous by imputation Rom 4:6-8


6Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,


7Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

So here we see both imputations go hand in hand, those whom have imputed righteousness vs 6 are those who have not had their sins imputed unto them vs 8 and 2 Cor 5:19

And so, we have it, God or Christ made both the wicked and the righteous.. for His redemptive purpose..

The wicked, are the vessels of wrath, who do have their sins imputed to their charge, and the vessels of mercy, the righteous, do not have their sins laid to their charge, but instead to the charge of their shepherd, and the shepherd giveth His life for the sheep, and not the goats..

blackbirdking
February 20th, 2010, 08:58 AM
beloved,

You are following a preconcieved assumption which is not scriptural about the sovereignty of God. You're saying God created evil and not only created evil but takes pleasure in it. Are you insane? Why don't you study your Bible with a mind that seeks to know the character God instead of using it as an instrument to try to prove a false assumption? You know you're ignoring scripture that knocks your theory all to pieces. Look @ Ezekiel 33:11; Ezekiel 18 :21-28; Isaiah 55:7; Psalm 5:4 . You are well aware that you're disclaiming scripture that more than balances your tweaked perception of God. Revelation 2:21; Luke 13:34; Matthew 23:37; He would have, they would not. Luke 19:41, I thought He takes pleasure in working out His will; even in people who refuse Him. He must have been weeping for joy over ********* Jerusalem! It's impossible to study all scripture and arrive at your conclusions.

beloved57
February 20th, 2010, 09:16 AM
black:


beloved,

You are following a preconcieved assumption which is not scriptural about the sovereignty of God. You're saying God created evil and not only created evil but takes pleasure in it

Maybe you need to reread the thread, Its very scriptural..I dont think you understand why this world was made, for what purpose, read the thread..

blackbirdking
February 20th, 2010, 09:33 AM
black:



Maybe you need to reread the thread, Its very scriptural..I dont think you understand why this world was made, for what purpose, read the thread..

I think you're saying it was created for the glory and pleasure of God. God and Christ are one. John 10:30 ;John 1:1. Can you say that creating evil brings pleasure to God?

beloved57
February 20th, 2010, 10:15 AM
black:


I think you're saying it was created for the glory and pleasure of God.

Yes, but how ? I go through great detail explaining how and why ? For all things were created for Christ, Why ?

blackbirdking
February 20th, 2010, 10:44 PM
Not only were the heavens made by and for Jesus Christ, but also #2. The Angels were made for Jesus Christ, both good and evil..

I recall scripture says that when He returns, He will have His Angels with Him matt 16:27

For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.



Matthew 24:31 (http://www.theologyonline.com/passage/?search=Matthew+24:31&version=KJV)
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

In forming the Eternal Purpose of redemption, God was pleased that the elect Angels [ see 1 Timothy 5:21 (http://www.theologyonline.com/passage/?search=1 Timothy+5:21&version=KJV)] would be employed by Him unto the Heirs of salvation [ see heb 1:13-14]

note: here: The Heirs of salvation were known and loved by God in His Eternal Purpose from eternity and before they actually existed in time..

The Angels were made by Him and for Him to worship Him heb 1:


5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

The evil angels too serve Him and His eternal purpose, and He made them also, in col 1 16 we read:

16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:


For He created or made, brought into existence Thrones, Dominions, Principalities, Powers, and within the scope of these things, are the angelic, heavenly authorities, whether good or evil, and As Jehovah made the wicked [ prov 16:4] both wicked men and angels are made to serve the Eternal redemptive purpose in Christ..


These principalities, powers and authorities are not limited to heavenly invisible beings, but to also that which is seen here in our under world, human government and authorities as well..

rom 8:38

For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

eph 3:10

To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,


eph 6:12

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Notice, the rulers of darkness of this world , the greek is:

kosmokratōr :
lord of the world, prince of this age
a) the devil and his demons

Jn 12:

31Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

And we know these are angels.. So all these angels, both good and evil were made by Christ and for Christ to serve His Eternal and Soterilogical Purpose unto the Glory of God..

Even now all these things and creatures and powers and authorities are under His subjection and serving His purpose see 1 pet 3:22

Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

These authorities and powers have been made subject to Him..

This is the passive voice aorist tense, so its past tense, and the word subject here is the greek word:

hypotassō which means:

to arrange under, to subordinate
2) to subject, put in subjection
3) to subject one's self, obey
4) to submit to one's control
5) to yield to one's admonition or advice
6) to obey, be subject

All these entities good or evil are under His control and obey His Sovereign Power see Matt 28:18

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

How many of us believe to day that all demonic and devilish forces are obeying the risen Christ ? Even while on earth a glimpse of this glory was given and acknowledged : mk 1:27

And they were all amazed, insomuch that they questioned among themselves, saying, What thing is this? what new doctrine is this? for with authority commandeth he even the unclean spirits, and they do obey him.

You see that, even the unclean spirits, they do obey Him, if then, how much more so in His Glory ?

Look at the activity of unclean spirits ! Matt 12:

43When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.


44Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.

45Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

Do you believe today that these unclean spirits are under the control and obedience of Christ ?

I certainly do, in light of 1 pet 3 22 it has to be true..

And so, all Angels both good and evil were made by Him and for Him..

I think I'm finally beginning to comprehend what your'e saying. God created everything that exists for His own purpose and glory, including what we think of as evil. But because God, who is perfect And holy, is working out His will in all of what He created and perfectly controls all of what He created, it's not really evil at all because it's God's purpose being fulfilled. Therefore, everything that is done by anyone doing it is really fulfilling God's will because it is impossible for anyone or anything to act independantly of God. Everything that everybody does and can imagine to do in obedience to the will of God. So if I think someone may be doing evil, they're not really because they are acting out the will of a sovereign God. They really must be doing the will of God because nobody can act outside of the will of God; it's totally impossible to go against the will of God. Even satan himself cannot act outside the will of God. So in the garden, when Adam was fulfilling the will of God by eating off of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, he wasn't doing anything wrong; he actually was doing the will of his father(Luke 3:38). Also, when Jesus, the second Adam, was nailed to the cross to fulfill the purpose and plan of His father, the soldiers, scribes, pharisees, and the rest creation were also doing the will their father. God must have been their father because they were doing His will. They could do no other. They were forced by a sovereign God to serve Him and to do His will. Since God is not evil, and nothing he does is evil, and everything that ever happens is really God doing it by means of His creation, there can be no evil at all. It is all "very good".Genesis 1:31

beloved57
February 23rd, 2010, 03:18 PM
black:


I think I'm finally beginning to comprehend what you're saying. God created everything that exists for His own purpose and glory, including what we think of as evil. But because God, who is perfect And holy, is working out His will in all of what He created and perfectly controls all of what He created, it's not really evil at all because it's God's purpose being fulfilled.

Gods Eternal Purpose includes evil..


Therefore, everything that is done by anyone doing it is really fulfilling God's will because it is impossible for anyone or anything to act independently of God. Everything that everybody does and can imagine to do in obedience to the will of God.

Correct..


So if I think someone may be doing evil, they're not really because they are acting out the will of a sovereign God.

Yes they may be doing evil, but its still out of the will of God..If a child is molested, a women brutally raped and murdered, that was evil and wicked, but nevertheless it was Gods Sovereign will that caused it..


They really must be doing the will of God because nobody can act outside of the will of God; it's totally impossible to go against the will of God. Even Satan himself cannot act outside the will of God. So in the garden, when Adam was fulfilling the will of God by eating off of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, he wasn't doing anything wrong; he actually was doing the will of his father(Luke 3:38).

All this is true except when Adam ate of the fruit, that was morally wrong, but He still was doing the Sovereign will of God, it was Gods Sovereign will that caused it..


Also, when Jesus, the second Adam, was nailed to the cross to fulfill the purpose and plan of His father, the soldiers, scribes, pharisees, and the rest creation were also doing the will their father.

Absolutely..but God was not a Father to all of them..But a God to all of them..

.
God must have been their father because they were doing His will.

Wrong assumption, all creatures carry out Gods Sovereign will without God being their Father.. The devil in the book of Job carried out Gods Sovereign will concerning Job, but that does not make Satan a child of God, or that God is his Father..


Since God is not evil,

Correct..


and nothing he does is evil,

Correct..


and everything that ever happens is really God doing it by means of His creation, there can be no evil at all. It is all "very good

The evil that the Sovereign will of God causes others to do, is very Good according to His Eternal Purpose..

ps 76:10

Surely the wrath of man shall praise thee: the remainder of wrath shalt thou restrain.

All the sins that men can commit will end up to Gods Praise, and all other sins that cant, He will not allow them to come into existence..

firon
February 24th, 2010, 05:14 PM
To display the eternal idiocy of the lobotomized demiurge you are blasphemous enough to call "God"?

The Christian faith does not have a demiurge. Demiurges are for false gods. You have not paid attention if you believe Christianity believes in a demiurge in any way.

beloved57
February 25th, 2010, 10:28 PM
Eph 3:11

11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

2 Tim 1:9

9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Col 1:16-17

16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.


The World, the Ages, all Things were created for a redemptive purpose, thats to say that the world was made under the umbrella of the everlasting covenant, Christ having already been slain [ in purpose] and shedding His blood..

All things worked out in the garden as to manifest the redemptive purpose of Jesus Christ..everything that occurred, the temptation by the serpent, the eating of the fruit by eve and Adam, the proclamation of the coming seed of the women, for all this was the very purpose for which the world was created.. The world was created under the eternal redemptive blessings of the blood of Christ, and all at the beginning makes manifest why..

beloved57
February 26th, 2010, 11:01 PM
Was it Gods will and intention for Adam to bring sin into the world : For Rom 5:12 reads:

12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Yes indeed it was God's will for Adam to sin. For the purpose of creation of te world was all for Christ..

Col 1:16

16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Eph 3:9-11

9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

For Adam was made for a redemptive purpose; so how could adam fulfill Gods purpose without plunging all of His descendants into sin ?

I have yet been able to find a scripture that says all things were created for adam, but we do find a Scripture that states emphatically, that all things were created for Christ or unto Christ.

Now Christ eternal purpose was redemptive and involved the calling of the gentiles Eph 3:11, but lets pay close to the two words eternal purpose in vs 11

11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

Eternal purpose is literally, the Eternal plan or compact that God made in eternity past, within the purpose of the everlasting covenant.

Now many say at this juncture that they believe in the eternal purpose of Christ, but I am afraid it is merely lip service to the truth of Gods eternal purpose in Christ, because the very same ones will turn right around and deny that God wanted adam to sin. They say that God would have preferred not that adam sinned, but because he did sin, God foresaw it, so then God purposed Christ as a sort of back up plan ! But what kinda nonsense is that ? Thats actually contradicting and overturning the clear scripture teaching that that the Eternal Purpose was centered in Jesus Christ or its saying that Jesus Christ was secondary to Gods purpose of adam, which thinking is actually giving the purpose of adam the preeminence over the purpose of Christ, which undermines this:
Col 1:18

18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Now certainly, if Jesus Christ was a back up plan for the failure of adam, then adam had the preeminence over Christ in Gods First Purpose..

This thinking is a total repudiation of the truth that all things [ Including adam] were created by and for Jesus Christ.

beloved57
February 27th, 2010, 10:58 AM
Now certainly, if Jesus Christ was a back up plan for the failure of Adam, then Adam had the preeminence over Christ in Gods First Purpose..

This thinking is a total repudiation of the truth that all things [ Including Adam] were created by and for Jesus Christ..

This carnal reasoning that puts Jesus Christ as a back plan does not really believe what the scripture clearly teaches, that all things are for Christ, this reasoning however believes that initially all things were for Adam, hence the creature is being exalted over the creator.. Rom 1:25

25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

For Jesus Christ is clearly identified as the Creator Col 1:16

16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Jn 1:3

3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

So no matter what one may claim by their mouth to believe, if they don't understand that sin/evil being Gods perfect holy will for this world, and that Adam was created very good in order to bring that purpose by his disobedience, then they do not understand the preeminence of Jesus Christ in all things over adam, and have elevated the creature over the creator, which is nothing short of Idolatry !

Now, was it Gods perfect Holy will for Adam to sin and bring evil into the world in the beginning ? Again the answer is yes, an emphatic yes, no question about it.

Now there is a principle that is very important here that is often lost sight of, found in Gen 50:20

But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

You see here, sin and evil is given its defining purpose and definition, men and devil mean it for evil, but God meant evil and sin for Good, Oh yes, Satan's evil deceiving of the first parents of the election, was meant for evil, but God meant it for Good, in other words, Satan was just doing what Gods eternal purpose in Jesus Christ predetermined for him to do, to bring to pass the salvation purpose of Jesus Christ..

So that it will bring to pass what we have recorded here in Rev 5:6-14


6And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

7And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

8And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

11And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

12Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

13And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
14And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

And Rev 7:10-12

10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.


11And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

So you who believe it was not Gods will for Adam to sin and bring evil into this world, but that God would have rathered for Adam not to had sin, but that he would have lived perfectly forever and ever without sin, then you are saying that the worship and praises we read of in Rev 5:6-14 and Rev 7:10-12, were not Gods first preference from creation, but a back up plan to adam...

The devil meant sin for evil, but God meant it for Good, to bring about the salvation / redemption of the people by the blood of the lamb, slain from the foundation of the world..

beloved57
July 20th, 2010, 08:21 AM
This creation was made to Glorify God, in the totality of His Person, and His Glorious Attributes, and Triunity. The cross of Christ is most vital for the Purpose of all creation, for it exceeds Adam, it exceeds Israel the Nation. In Fact for no other purpose was creation even relevant, for He [Christ] was foreordained before the foundation, He was slain from the foundation.

1 Cor 1:23

23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

1 Cor 2:2

2For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

1 Pet 1:20

20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Rev 13:8

8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Gal 6:14

14But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

So creation and all subsequent entities were subservient to a Eternal Redemptive Purpose, the Cross Eph 3:9-11

9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:


10To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

For this [ Gods Eternal Purpose of the Cross] this must be factored into Paul's preaching of Christ and Him crucified [ 1 Cor 2:2]

He writes of their Glory 1 Cor 2:6-7

6Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

Paul no doubt had the wisdom of the cross and its Eternal Purpose at Mind.

An understanding of this can not but establish the Fact that God purposed sin into the World, to accomplish His Eternal Purpose of the cross, Christ and Him crucified.

beloved57
January 20th, 2012, 10:41 PM
God decreed sin into the world, for He Eternally Purposed before the world began, that Christ would be Crucified by wicked and sinful hands Acts 2:23

23Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Yes, God's determinate counsel brought into being those wicked hands that crucified and murdered Christ !

1 Pet 1:20

20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Foreordained for what before the foundation ? To die a redeeming death for sin !

Rev 13:8

8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

How then did God Eternally Purpose of this Death, without Eternally purposing the wicked hands be made in fulfilling His Eternal Purpose of Christ's Redeeming Death !

beloved57
February 17th, 2012, 12:47 AM
Eph 1:4

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: God's Election of a People in Christ was from Eternity Past, before the world, yes even the universe was created. He determined to choose them apart from others that He did not choose in Christ. This Election in Christ was before the Elect were Created in Adam. Now this tells us that this world was Created for man's Existence, The Elect and the Reprobate for God's Eternal Purpose in Christ, a distinct and redemptive purpose Eph 3:11

beloved57
July 2nd, 2013, 06:26 AM
The God of scripture s a God of purpose, before the World began the God I know of from the scripture, Sovereignly Purposed all things that cometh to pass in time, and nothing has happened without being purposed by Him. Nothing happens by chance with God, nor by bare permission, everything that happens is linked to a predetermined End in involved with God's Eternal Purpose in Christ Eph 3:11

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

DRA 11 According to the eternal purpose, which he made, in Christ Jesus our Lord:

Everything occurring in time was purposed by God in Eternity, so the wise man writes Ecclesiastes 3:1

To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

This was made so from the strength of God's Eternal Purpose. It was a time for adam to be born or created according to God's Purpose in Christ, as well as a Time set for when Christ Himself would be born of a woman for His Purpose Gal 4:4

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

You see that ? In the fullness of Time ! That refers back to God's Purpose and time under heaven. "To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:"

That's also why we have such scriptures like Rom 8:28

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Rom 9:11

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

Eph 1:11

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Eph 3:11

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

2 Tim 1:9

Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Isa 14:24

24 The Lord of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:

beloved57
September 20th, 2013, 06:56 AM
Col 1:14-17

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

This world, and all things therein, to include Adam [and offspring in him], Eve, the serpent [his offspring in him Gen 3:15] at Creation, were made for a Redemptive Purpose in Christ Jesus , an Eternal Purpose Eph 3:11

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

All things were by Him as the medium of Creation and because of Him for His Redemptive Purpose Vs 14.

Adam dying and the elect men in Him was purposed by God for His Glory through Jesus Christ. Remember God told Adam this Gen 2:16-17

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

God already from eternity knew Adam and his offspring in him were going to die, and in fact He was informing him of the same, for it was an inevitable event to happen.

Now we must understand that if God did not want Adam and his offspring in him to sin and justly die , God could have prevented it and kept him back from sinning against Him as here Gen 20:6

6 And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.

The word witheld means:

to withhold, restrain, hold back, keep in check, refrain

And God suffered the king not to touch Sarah !

Now, God, if He so desired could have held back Eve from touching or eating of that Tree that the serpent deceived her into eating from, but God did not because for her to eat and her husband to eat from it served His Purpose in Christ !

Now who shall deny that God could have done the same unto Adam and Eve as He did to that King ? I challenge anyone to deny it.

But God's Purpose for decreeing Adam's sin, so that man in him would surely die, was for His Greater Glory in and through the Lord Jesus Christ, for this World was Created because of Him !

beloved57
September 20th, 2013, 09:00 AM
But God's Purpose for decreeing Adam's sin, so that man in him would surely die, was for His Greater Glory in and through the Lord Jesus Christ, for this World was Created because of Him !

For Adam's and his offspring in him sin and death was motivated for His Glory as was Lazarus, and why he died Jn 11:4,11,14-15

4 When Jesus heard that, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.

11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him.

It was God's intent that Adam and Eve would Believe in Christ their coming Seed, the Seed of the woman.

21 Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.

22 But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee.

23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.

40 Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?

Lazarus death was for the manifestation of the Glory of God, as well as Adam's was for the Glory of God. His Death was for the Glory of God in the Highest Lk 2:14,

For even if Adam had not sinned, God's Glory could not have been more manifested, even moreso is it through Adam's sin.

Now ask ourselves, was God the First and Primary from within Himself, as to what would bring Him the Highest and Grandest Glory, or was it only after He foresaw what decisions His creatures would make after He created them ? What was it that dictated God's Eternal Redemptive Purpose in Christ Eph 3:11, was it Himself and His Own Purpose from within, or was it from without His Own Purpose and it being the will of His creatures and if He had His way, He'd prefer that Adam would not sin. The way we answer this question manifests our knowledge of what we know of the True and Living God, or do we believe in a god of our imagination !

beloved57
November 10th, 2013, 04:18 PM
This world was Created for a very specific God Glorifying Purpose in Christ Eph 3:11 and it involved Redemption through Hid Blood Eph 1:7

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Now when Adam was Created, he was made according to this Purpose Eph 3:11

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

Grace had been given God's Elect in Christ Jesus according to this Purpose before the world began 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

That's why again in Eph 1:7 all given Redemption, Forgiveness was according to the Riches of His Grace, pointing back to that Grace Given them in Christ before the world began, and when Adam was Created, he was Created for that Gracious Redemptive Purpose and not vice versa, and so when Adam sinned it was so that God would make known to Adam his Need of Christ and His Grace, who was to be of his seed according to the flesh, to redeem him, which redemption had been ordained, appointed before time began 1 Pet 1:18-20

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Now this is important information, for Christ, before Adam was Created, had already been foreordained, prepared by God to be the redeeming lamb of the World Jn 1:29

29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Nanja
November 10th, 2013, 06:11 PM
Now this is important information, for Christ, before Adam was Created, had already been foreordained, prepared by God to be the redeeming lamb of the World Jn 1:29

29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.


Yes, that is, the Lamb is the Saviour of the "world" of Israel: all the elect of God, the Seed chosen before the foundation of the world. (Acts 13:23)

Isaiah 45:17 But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end. (Psalm 14:7)

Rom. 11:26-27 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. (Mat. 1:21)

~~~~~

beloved57
November 10th, 2013, 09:14 PM
Now this is important information, for Christ, before Adam was Created, had already been foreordained, prepared by God to be the redeeming lamb of the World Jn 1:29

29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Now understand something, Adam's sin did not happen by accident, but it was a calculated event within the Eternal Purpose God, Christ in God's Eternal Purpose and View had been slain before the foundation Rev 13:8

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The word slain here in the greek is σφάζω:


I slay, kill by violence, slaughter, wound mortally.
to slay, slaughter, butcher: properly,

A primary verb; to butcher (especially an animal for food or in sacrifice)

The tense of the verb is perfect, which indicates an act accomplished in the past with the results of the action are continuing on, in full effect.

Peter goes on to write in 1 Pet 1:20

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

That Christ by His Incarnation has been manifested in these last times for YOU !

Which means He became manifested, came to view openly, for the sake of God's Elect, those foreknown 1 Pet 1:2

Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

The word foreknowledge here is the same word as in Vs 20 but only a Noun !

Now this being manifested , is the same as 1 Jn 3:8

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Now of course this means also that the works of the devil, that which Christ became manifest to destroy, that they were also according to the Eternal Purpose of God in Christ, so neither was the deed of causing Adam and Eve to sin a accident, but it was preordained before the foundation !

beloved57
November 10th, 2013, 09:18 PM
nanja


Yes, that is, the Lamb is the Saviour of the "world" of Israel: all the elect of God, the Seed chosen before the foundation of the world. (Acts 13:23)

Yes, in fact, Adam was of that seed Chosen before the foundation of the world. The mistake is that people think that Adam was the Natural Federal Head of the Non Elect in the beginning, but he was not only of the Elect !

Nanja
November 11th, 2013, 05:29 AM
Yes, in fact, Adam was of that seed Chosen before the foundation of the world. The mistake is that people think that Adam was the Natural Federal Head of the Non Elect in the beginning, but he was not only of the Elect !


I agree. Only all the elect died in Adam. (1 Cor. 15:22)
All the non-elect were of the seed of the serpent (Gen. 3:14-15).
Cain "was of that wicked one" (1 John 3:12).
Jesus referred to them as serpents (Mat. 23:31-36);
their father is the devil (John 8:44);
a "seed" (zera) of evildoers (Isaiah 1:4 -KJV)

So, Cain was not created in Adam in the beginning;
he is not included in the genealogy recorded in Gen. 5:1-32;
but he was the spiritual offspring of the devil.

~~~~~

beloved57
November 11th, 2013, 06:34 AM
nanja


So, Cain was not created in Adam in the beginning;
he is not included in the genealogy recorded in Gen. 5:1-32;
but he was the spiritual offspring of the devil.

Agreed, I don't think anyone has ever agreed with me on this sublime Truth before.

Nanja
November 11th, 2013, 11:32 AM
beloved57


Agreed, I don't think anyone has ever agreed with me on this sublime Truth before.

Not surprised, though. Yet, all the scriptures to support this truth are there,
so what remains may be an understanding issue for most.

beloved57
November 11th, 2013, 12:56 PM
nanja


so what remains may be an understanding issue for most.

Well, Yeah, especially if Christ does not give it to them. 1 Jn 5:19-20

20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

The only way I have an understanding of it is because it was granted to me ! And I believe its something that will be granted to all God's True People, as it is written:

Matt 13:12

For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

Nanja
November 11th, 2013, 03:58 PM
beloved57


Well, Yeah, especially if Christ does not give it to them. 1 Jn 5:19-20

20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

The only way I have an understanding of it is because it was granted to me ! And I believe its something that will be granted to all God's True People, as it is written:

Matt 13:12

For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

Agree...it's exactly what I had in mind. ☺

Also, 2 Tim. 3:14:
But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them

~~~~~

beloved57
November 17th, 2013, 05:14 PM
Rom 3:24

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

This world was created for a purpose of grace, because it was made for a redemptive purpose. This grace was given to all whom would be redeemed through that redemption that is in Christ Jesus, the grace was given them in Christ Jesus before the world began 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Also a scripture in Eph 2 sums it up accurately Eph 2:7

7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

This sums up the Purpose of creation. So the World was Created for a Redemptive Purpose in Christ, which is also called the Eternal Purpose here Eph 3:11

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

This verse above speaks to the purport 2 Tim 1:9. Now by the way, it was for this Eternal Purpose and cause as to why God is the First and Primary cause for sin and death coming into the world, and why He wanted adam and man in him to sin and purposed that sinned, which Paul points out here Rom 8:20

20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

What hope ? Titus 1:2

2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Notice the term before the world began ! Where did we see those words before ? Here 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

beloved57
November 18th, 2013, 01:59 AM
Now it must be added and noted that God's Eternal Purpose in Christ Eph 3:11; 2 Tim 1:9 was formed by God in Eternity, in His Eternal Mind alone, without any consideration of anything He did foresee, without being influenced by anyone, not adam, not Lucifer, no angels. Uninfluenced by anyone or anything outside of Himself, and solely according to His OWN good pleasure Eph 1:5,11

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

All True Saints believe this Ps 115:3

3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased[or desired].

Dan 4:35

35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth[executes,performs] according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Look especially at the Phrase Eph 1:11

In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: Not no one elses will , which would be the case if He was influenced by any actions outside of Himself !

If we believe and teach that God in forming His Eternal Purpose in Christ [which is Redemptive and about Grace] was influenced by what He foresaw in and by Adam or any other creature, we immediately are guilty of dishonoring God's Wisdom, supposing He could not have originated such a Gracious Purpose of Redemption apart from being influenced by His creatures, beings of time, and so then it would be another being inferior to Himself that taught Him wisdom Isa 40:13

Who hath directed the Spirit of the Lord, or being his counsellor hath taught him?

If God's Eternal Purpose of Redemption and Grace was the result of God foreseeing how His creatures would act, then to a degree they taught Him wisdom, their actions at the least initiated Him to act towards them in Redemption and Grace, thoughts obviously He had not before He created man. All such thinking is Blasphemous, insulting, and disrespectful to the highest degree and of the devil His arch enemy !

God also within the Eternal Purpose in Christ Eph 3:11

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

Chose His People in Christ before the foundation of the world Eph 1:3-6

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Connected to what had been said earlier Eph 2:7

7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Truster
November 18th, 2013, 06:54 AM
Creation, creator, created ''bara'' in Hebrew and it emphasises the initiation of the object. The creation took place to reveal the attributes of Deity and once the process was complete there was need for further revelation over a period of time. This is the mystery. That in moving forward there is, by necessity, a change taking place and to the casual observer this would necessitate a 'change of mind'' as time pans out. But, we have an immutable and unchanging Elohim.

The existence of time is something I've been considering lately. The Almighty could, if He chose to do so, have put the matter of sin right in Eden. He could have created another man in their likeness and in their image and nailed Him to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Risen Him from death and allowed him to eat from the tree of life. But He chose to use sin and death as a means to redemption at a future date…amazing grace!

beloved57
November 18th, 2013, 07:35 AM
truster


Creation, creator, created ''bara'' in Hebrew and it emphasises the initiation of the object. The creation took place to reveal the attributes of Deity and once the process was complete there was need for further revelation over a period of time. This is the mystery. That in moving forward there is, by necessity, a change taking place and to the casual observer this would necessitate a 'change of mind'' as time pans out. But, we have an immutable and unchanging Elohim.

Do you understand the things stated in post 67 ?

Truster
November 18th, 2013, 07:48 AM
truster



Do you understand the things stated in post 67 ?

I wasn't answering post 67. I have had a glance and seeing it is just cut and paste scripture I can confirm I understand those things. Do you understand what I have posted in 68?

beloved57
November 18th, 2013, 08:33 AM
truster


I wasn't answering post 67

Could you answer it now ?

Truster
November 18th, 2013, 08:42 AM
truster



Could you answer it now ?

I couldn't see a question in 67? I saw a long statement, but no question.

beloved57
November 18th, 2013, 09:09 AM
I couldn't see a question in 67? I saw a long statement, but no question.

Could you answer it now ? Do you understand it ?

Truster
November 18th, 2013, 09:23 AM
Could you answer it now ? Do you understand it ?

You point me to the question and I'll answer it.

Are you bonkers or just playing at it? Now that is a question!

beloved57
November 18th, 2013, 09:43 AM
You point me to the question and I'll answer it.

Are you bonkers or just playing at it? Now that is a question!

Read post 69 again !

Truster
November 18th, 2013, 09:53 AM
Read post 69 again !

I have better things to do….

beloved57
November 18th, 2013, 09:54 AM
I have better things to do….

Go do them then !

beloved57
November 18th, 2013, 08:18 PM
Because this world was made for a Redemptive Purpose in Christ Jesus, which is also The Eternal Purpose here Eph 3:11

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

All things in time therefore made in light of that Purpose Col 1:16

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

This Purpose made sin and death necessary, God therefore Purposed these things to occur at the Creation of adam, that those whom Christ would redeem be by nature ,born in captivity to sin, in bondage to devil, and under the curse of the Law.

This is True because Christ's death for those He died for, Redemptive, It redeems them from the curse of the Law Gal 3:13

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

This was a precious work for God Ps 49:8

For the redemption of their soul is precious, and it ceaseth for ever )

1 Pet 18-20

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

We are all born by nature in captivity to the devil ! 2 Tim 2:26

26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.



We are all born by nature as transgressors of God's Law Isa 48:8

Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb.

God Created the world so that Christ would Glorify Him in the defeat of these enemies !

beloved57
December 4th, 2013, 09:04 AM
Is God the Author of Sin ?

Yes, most certainly He is, However that's not to say He is the doer of sin Himself, He did not Himself commit sin [which is impossible since He can never transgress any law] But He is the Author and Creator of the being or beings that do and did commit sin or acts of sin. Both the sin of Adam, and Lucifer were determined by God for them to do. Did God foresee them sinning ? Yes He did, since He determined they do. This is not God's permissive will, but a predetermined counsel, for it is written Rom 8:20

20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

beloved57
December 24th, 2013, 10:16 AM
Eph 3:8-11

8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

This World was Created according to an Eternal Purpose of Grace [A Mystery] in Christ Jesus.

2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

This was an Eternal Purpose wherein God's Elect were given Grace in Christ before the foundation;

And within this Eternal Purpose of Grace, Christ was the Foreknown or Foreordained before the World Began 1 Pet 1:20

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

That means it was before this Gen 1:1-3

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Now Christ also in the Same Eternal Purpose established before the foundation had been slain Rev 13:8

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain [for sinners] from the foundation of the world.

And so Adam was Created/ Made within the Scope of this Eternal Purpose of Grace. It was by the Purpose of God that sin should enter the world and death by sin Rom 5:12. You see death was the way Christ was to die for the Purpose of Grace Heb 2:9.

Also in the Creation of Adam, God Created in him a principle of death, and assured him that he was surely going to eat and die Gen 2:17

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

He had to die because in the Eternal Purpose of God, Christ had to die .

So the Death and Sin entering the World by Adam Rom 5:12 was in according to God's Purpose of Grace in Christ. It was God's Purpose that sin should enter the world and death by sin, it was no fluke, no mistake, no backup plan, no, it was all according to God's Infinite Wisdom Rom 11:33

33 [B]O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

That word wisdom means:

ii.the wisdom of God as evinced in forming and executing counsels in the formation and government of the world and the scriptures.

Adam's Transgression was brought forth according to God's Purpose in Christ and in Creation Col 1:16

16 For by him[Christ] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him[Christ], and for him[Christ]:

For Christ before the World was ever Created, was already, in the Eternal Purpose of Grace, the Slain Lamb !

beloved57
January 5th, 2014, 07:53 PM
The World was Created for the Making Known of the Mystery of/in Christ Eph 3:3-11


3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

Yes even the formulation of The Nation of Israel, for the Purpose of Christ in the flesh, was in subservience to the Mystery in Christ.

It was always that God would be Glorified for the Unsearchable Richs of Christ shown and bestowed upon the Gentiles, who comprise His Chosen Israel. The Church serves a much more Glorious Purpose in the Glorifying of God upon the Earth and in the World, than did National Israel, it was just a means to a Greater End; For through it, the Church is to make known the Manifold Wisdom of God Eph 3:8-11

8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, See in this connection 1 Pet 1:10-12

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

This includes the Purpose of All Creation from the very beginning, for it is written Prov 3:19

19 The Lord by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens.

All this points back to the Fact that this World was Created for a Redemptive Purpose in Christ.

beloved57
January 6th, 2014, 08:11 AM
This Eternal Purpose in Christ for the Church far exceeds that of national Israel in that all the Universe, its principalities and powers admire the Wisdom of God displayed Eph 3:9-10

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

Its that Hope of Glory Col 1:27

27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

This is that Glory Jesus Prays about for His Believers here Jn 17:20-24

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Its the Glory spoken of here Lk 2:32

A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

Quirkybird
January 6th, 2014, 08:38 AM
In the unlikely event the Biblical deity did create the universe, I reckon it did it for its own amusement. It obviously gets a thrill from seeing humans' pain and discomfort, that can be the only explanation for its behaviour!

beloved57
January 6th, 2014, 09:01 AM
quirky


In the unlikely event the Biblical deity did create the universe

Sure quirky. lol

beloved57
January 19th, 2014, 05:09 AM
That this world was created for a God Glorifying purpose in Christ, which is redemptive, is shown here quite clearly Col 1:14-16

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created , that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

All things were Created by and for Him whom we have redemption through His Blood Vs 14

Christ here is presented in His Mediatorial Capacity as the Firstborn of Every Creature , and as such, all things were mediatorially Created by Him as the efficient cause of the results Heb 1:2

Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Jn 1:3

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made .

And all things as Mediator Head, were made for Him as the Ultimate Cause !

beloved57
March 3rd, 2014, 04:19 PM
Matt 4:4

4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

We find here in these words of the Blessed Saviour, the Son of God, a very astonishing truth about God's design for Man, a truth that has been hidden from the wise and religious of this world, but shall be revealed to babes, even spiritual babes of the Kingdom of the Dear Son, and that is, it was always God's Purpose, even from Eternity, that men Created in His Likeness and Image, that they should not live by bread alone [physical food and nutrition], but by every word that proceedeth out of the Mouth of God [Spiritual Nutrition], which was something the natural man in the flesh [including Adam] could not do, and was not equipped to do, but this aspect of His Purpose shoud come through New Birth 1 Pet 2:1-4

Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,

2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:

3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.

4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,

Peter was speaking to those that had been born again of incorruptible seed, we know that from going back a few verses to 1 Pet 1:23

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

When we receive a nature from that birth, we are then made meet to begin to live by every word that comes from the Mouth of God !

This comes from being born again, a New Creation, a New Man in Christ, and so by this we perceive that this World was Created for a Redemptive Purpose in Christ Eph 3:11

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

See Adam was Created for this same Purpose in Christ Jesus ! For man has not truly began to Live the abundant Life out of Christ's Redemption until they are quickened by Him, and this Life enables one to Live unto God, for Paul writes Rom 6:11

Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

See, at Creation, Adam was not alive unto God through Jesus Christ, this Life comes from Christ as a Quickening Spirit 1 Cor 15:45

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Its only after we have this Life from Christ given us that we can say as Job did here Job 23:12

12 Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food.

Even the Worlds first parents could not say that before the fall, in fact, one of Eve's lusts when it came to the Tree of the knowledge of good and Evil, which satan used against her to break God's Command was thise Gen 3:6

6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

And she had plenty of food, but this showed us that she was yet carnal, of the flesh, and needed to be born again out of the Word of God !

God's Words are Spiritual and they are Life , they are Righteousness Prov 8:8

All the words of my mouth are in righteousness ! To not eat of the Tree as God had commanded was in accord with the righteous nature, will, and law of God !

But it is only when man has Eternal and Spiritual Life in him by God's Spirit, are we able to off every word that cometh out the Mouth of God !

That has always been God's Purpose, but not through Adam, but through Jesus Christ Our Lord !

beloved57
March 24th, 2014, 10:39 AM
What Great Good and Glory to God that came by sin in the Eternal Purpose of God in Christ Jesus Eph 3:8-11

8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

Look at verse 8 without sin entering into the world, what purpose would have been for the Preaching of the Unsearchable Riches of Christ ?

These are Riches Christ possessed before the Creation, 2 Cor 8:9

For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.

And for this cause, God is the Author and Causer of sin and death ! Yes it was His Eternal Purpose in Christ that occasioned sin and its devastating consequences !

For God from Everlasting purposed, willed, decreed sin for His Glory in His Triune perfections and for the Eternal Glory of His Chosen People, a Glory that far exceeds anything in Adam 1 Pet 5:10

But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

Many believe that this Eternal Glory should have came originally by Adam instead of Christ Jesus, but sin caused God to make some modifications !

Now understand what is being said here, SIN in the World was for God's Glory, and is what made it Necessary for Sin in God's scheme of things . If it had not been for God's Eternal Purpose for sin, How could God's Love been shown to the Redeemed 1 Jn 4:9

In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

That word manifested means to:
I.to make manifest or visible or known what has been hidden or unknown, to manifest, whether by words, or deeds, or in any other way
A.
make actual and visible, realised

Also, How could Christ have Glorified Him [The Father] on the Earth with the Work He gave Him to do, to accomplish Jn 17:4

4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

Were it not for sin, then what purpose would it have been for Christ to come as Per Gal 4:4-6

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

For it would have not been any cause for His God Glorifying Death were it not for sin.

Even in the beginning, God's Love for His Chosen had not yet been made known to man until he sinned in Adam !

Whose Ideal was it for sin to come into the world ?

beloved57
April 9th, 2014, 10:07 PM
Sin and death was purposed by God so that He would be Glorified by Jesus Christ's redemptive death, which was the purpose for Creation, for all things were Created for Him as the Redemptive Head of the Church Col 1:14-18


14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.



In light of this we should ask ourselves the question, did not God before the fall know of its devasting effects and destructive outcome ? The Psalmest writes Ps 90:3

Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men.

Why yes of course He knew unless we blaspheme against the Omniscience of God, which I know some do, but God knew and saw the end from the beginning Isa 46:10

10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Also Acts 15:18

18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

Now again knowing these things, did God have the Power to prevent sin and death ? Could God had prevented His creature from sinning against Him ? Lets read a verse to find out Gen 20:6

6 And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.

The word withheld here means "kept from evil", now could God have kept adam and eve from the evil of the serpent if He had so pleased ? The answer is most definitely !

beloved57
April 10th, 2014, 06:03 AM
The Non prevention of Adam's Transgression that brought sin and death into the world as its consequences Rom 5:14 was according to the set purpose of the Mind of God, this was because God had already purposed the Death, Burial , Resurrection and Exaltation of Christ, for the Salvation of His Elect Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. See Phil 2:9 !

Now ask ourselves, did God from all Eternity already Purpose that His People shall be redeemed by the Blood of Christ ? Lets read 1 Pet 1:18-20

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Now if we have any spiritual understanding at all of the scripture testimony, the answer is YES. Now did God purpose to redeem them in any other state than sinful creatures ? If the elect would not have transgressed the commandment, then the foundation for redemption would not have existed, they would have remained innocent of transgression, and consequently no need for redemption through His Blood according to the Riches of Divine Grace Eph 1:7

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

But according to the Divine Purpose of manifesting His Grace unto the ages to come Eph 2:7

7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

They were made to sin and become guilty, So that Christ in pursuit of His Redemptive Work and Exaltation afterwards, would be made under the Law, to redeem them that were under the Law and its curse Gal 4:4-5

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

This world was Created for a Redemptive Purpose to reveal the Grace of God through Jesus Christ as the Saviour of God's People, contrived solely by the Wisdom of God, to say otherwise is to dethrone God !

beloved57
April 11th, 2014, 06:24 AM
Something to know about the Purpose of God ! That which is God's Eternal Purpose Eph 3:11

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

Ecclesiastes 3:1

To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

It is not like how it is with us, for we know it not until it cometh to past in time, but not so with the Eternal God, for it forever remaineth a constant present before Him because of His Eternalality, So it is He comprehends things outside of the limitations of time, which is impossible for any other to do; So we read in Ecclesiastes 3:15

15 That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past.

Which means, what is now was before in the decrees and purpose of God, in the eternal arrangements of heaven !

Man will be required to acknowledge this Greatness of God in the Judgment !

Nanja
April 11th, 2014, 08:14 AM
Something to know about the Purpose of God ! That which is God's Eternal Purpose Eph 3:11

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

Ecclesiastes 3:1

To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

It is not like how it is with us, for we know it not until it cometh to past in time, but not so with the Eternal God, for it forever remaineth a constant present before Him because of His Eternalality, So it is He comprehends things outside of the limitations of time, which is impossible for any other to do; So we read in Ecclesiastes 3:15

15 That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past.

Which means, what is now was before in the decrees and purpose of God, in the eternal arrangements of heaven !


Amen. Our Father is the Eternal Present!

The natural man cannot comprehend the Truth that God decreed and determined everything before time
in His Eternal Purpose (2 Tim. 1:9 KJV). And so, they continue to strive with Him, and foolishly insist on
working out their own salvation plan, but in vain.


Man will be required to acknowledge this Greatness of God in the Judgment !


Most assuredly; and all to, and for, His Glory !

~~~~~

beloved57
April 14th, 2014, 06:08 PM
Adam must sin for the simple fact that this World was Created for a Redemptive Purpose in Christ Jesus, Its called the Eternal Purpose in Christ Jesus Eph 3:11

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

In this, everything was made or created for Christ Jesus Per Col 1:16

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Adam was Created for Him, Jesus Christ was the First and Primary cause why Adam was Created.

Again not only was all things made by but for Him, the Earth was Established and founded in Wisdom Prov 3:19

The Lord by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens.

Christ is the Power and Wisdom of God 1 Cor 1:24

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

When Adam was formed and placed in the Earth, it was Very Good, for he was made according to the Infinite Wisdom of God and in the best possible state in execution for the accomplishment of the Work of Redemption Christ was set up unto from Eternity, Christ had an Eye to that in these Words leading to the Cross Jn 17:4

4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

The Earth here is that same one of Prov 3:19

19 The Lord by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens.

That Work that the Father gave Him to do was that of Redemption, for Redemption and Wisdom go together 1 Cor 1:30

30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

When God finished Creation Gen 1-2, hence all things had been made in the best possible state that Divine Wisdom could contrive, to expedite the Cross Work of the Lord Jesus Christ;

And so all men in Adam from the very beginning were made for Jesus Christ and a Redemptive Purpose that would magnify the Grace and Wisdom of God Eph 2:7

7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Eph 3:8-11

8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

You see that in Eph 3:8 ? In Adam's Creation God had an Eye to the Preaching of the Gospel to the Gentiles of the Unsearchable Riches of Christ !

beloved57
April 15th, 2014, 06:07 AM
Adam must sin according to being made for the Lord Jesus Christ and His Eternal Purpose of Redemption, for all things, including Adam and those in him were made by and for the Lord Jesus Christ Col 1:16 !

Also according to the Divine Purpose Adam must be given a Law in order for him to Transgress the Command of God, for if he would have obeyed the law or command, then that would have been counter to God's Purpose in Christ, whereas Christ had already been constituted the Lamb slain from the foundation Rev 13:8

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Also 1 Pet 1:18-20

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Yes, the Redeeming blood of Christ was foreordained before the foundation, hence before Adam was Created, who can deny that ?

If Adam would have rendered perfect obedience and gained Eternal Life, that would have defeated the Eternal Purpose of creating all things for Jesus Christ.

Scripture does declare that Christ was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, before it began, and that all things were made by Him and for Him Col 1:16 as He was before all things Col 1:17, then all things were made by Him and for Him in that Capacity of being slain before the foundation !

Thats why Adam must sin, and transgress the Law of God, for in the Eternal Purpose of God, He had already been wounded for our transgressions Isa 53:5

But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

The wounded for our transgressions is the same as the being the slain Lamb from the foundation !

blackbirdking
April 15th, 2014, 06:35 AM
Eph 3:7-11

..... God has sovereignly controlled the world from its beginning, ....and.....
All that happens in this world,...... which is both good and evil is included. All has been ordained by God.....

I show a definition from
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ordain#.

transitive verb
1: to invest officially (as by the laying on of hands) with ministerial or priestly authority


2a : to establish or order by appointment, decree, or law : enact <we the people … do ordain and establish this Constitution — United States Constitution>
b : destine, foreordain
intransitive verb
: to issue an order


You use the word "ordained" to say that God ordained evil. Do you agree with this definition of "ordained"?

question: Where did God get the evil He ordained?


Looking forward to your answer.

beloved57
April 15th, 2014, 06:51 AM
I show a definition from
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ordain#.

transitive verb
1: to invest officially (as by the laying on of hands) with ministerial or priestly authority


2a : to establish or order by appointment, decree, or law : enact <we the people … do ordain and establish this Constitution — United States Constitution>
b : destine, foreordain
intransitive verb
: to issue an order


You use the word "ordained" to say that God ordained evil. Do you agree with this definition of "ordained"?

question: Where did God get the evil He ordained?


Looking forward to your answer.

You quoted from my OP and then evaded the whole thing besides that one quote, so please go back to the OP where you got the quote from and then review with me all the points I made and point out the logical conclusions I derived, even though you may disagree with them, then I will answer that question !

blackbirdking
April 15th, 2014, 07:50 AM
You quoted from my OP and then evaded the whole thing besides that one quote, so please go back to the OP where you got the quote from and then review with me all the points I made and point out the logical conclusions I derived, even though you may disagree with them, then I will answer that question !

Sorry; didn't mean to evade anything. I think I have read all the points you made. You just pointed out the logical conclusions you derived; however, all of our logic is not the same; hence not all our conclusions are the same.

Just wondering if you could help me, as one of the elect, understand the character of God as you understand it. You said in your post that God ordained evil. Isn't that your logical conclusion?

Just an honest question. My logical mind asks, "Where did God get the evil, which you concluded, He ordained?"

If your logical conclusion is right, you have no reason not to answer; aren't you also seeking to understand the character of God? And why did you answer me with an attitude?

If your logical conclusion might be wrong, don't you want to find out? If I'm wrong about my logical conclusions about the character of God, I certainly want to find out before I see Him face to face.

According to your logical conclusion, where did God get the evil, which according to your logical conclusion, He ordained?

beloved57
April 15th, 2014, 08:51 AM
blackb


Sorry; didn't mean to evade anything

But you did ! so please go back to the OP where you got the quote from and then review with me all the points I made and point out the logical conclusions I derived, even though you may disagree with them, then I will answer that question !

blackbirdking
April 15th, 2014, 09:03 AM
blackb



But you did ! so please go back to the OP where you got the quote from and then review with me all the points I made and point out the logical conclusions I derived, even though you may disagree with them, then I will answer that question !

No. I didn't evade anything. You posted that your logical conclusion was that God ordained everything, including evil. Reread what you wrote. Where did God get the evil that He ordained? And again, why did you answer me with an attitude? It makes it seem like your on the defensive. You don't need to be defensive; only honest. Honesty always leads toward truth.

beloved57
April 15th, 2014, 09:40 AM
blackb


No. I didn't evade anything.

Yes you did, and presently still are !

blackbirdking
April 15th, 2014, 12:25 PM
blackb



Yes you did, and presently still are !
Why do you continue to have an attitude? Are you angry? Don't you love me?
I asked an honest answer and you write back with exclamation points.



Eph 3:7-11

7Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

8Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

Col 1:14-16

14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

The creation of the world was Soterilogical and Redemptive for all intents and purposes..

Gen 1:1

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

This is where God begins to manifest a Divine Eternal Purpose, which He eons afore time, purposed in Himself, the Triune God..

This Eternal Purpose was predicated upon God manifesting His redemptive [from sin] wisdom of His Chosen People, the Vessels of Mercy Rom 9:23..

Hence from all eternity God, That the world He created through Jesus Christ Eph 3:9 would be for the display of His manifold wisdom and grace in the redemption of Chosen lost sinners. Eph 3:10

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

For the execution and accomplishment of this Eternal Purpose, God has sovereignly controlled the world from its beginning, and will continue until its consummation, and time will be no more.

All that happens in this world, mysteriously has Soteriological and or Redemptive meaning, that which is both good and evil is included. All has been ordained by God and serves to operate into the displaying the manifold Wisdom of God in the Salvation or Redemption of the Church and His Glorification Through Jesus Christ !



Is this what I'm evading? Above is your whole quote. Now will you tell; where did the evil come from that was ordained by God? I'm not saying the evil of which you speak wasn't ordained by God. I'm simply asking a very honest question; where did the evil come from?


Is God the Author of Sin ?

Yes, most certainly He is, However that's not to say He is the doer of sin Himself, He did not Himself commit sin [which is impossible since He can never transgress any law] But He is the Author and Creator of the being or beings that do and did commit sin or acts of sin. Both the sin of Adam, and Lucifer were determined by God for them to do. Did God foresee them sinning ? Yes He did, since He determined they do. This is not God's permissive will, but a predetermined counsel, for it is written Rom 8:20

20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

According to you, God authored sin.



Eph 3:8-11

8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

This World was Created according to an Eternal Purpose of Grace [A Mystery] in Christ Jesus.

2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

This was an Eternal Purpose wherein God's Elect were given Grace in Christ before the foundation;

And within this Eternal Purpose of Grace, Christ was the Foreknown or Foreordained before the World Began 1 Pet 1:20

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

That means it was before this Gen 1:1-3

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Now Christ also in the Same Eternal Purpose established before the foundation had been slain Rev 13:8

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain [for sinners] from the foundation of the world.

And so Adam was Created/ Made within the Scope of this Eternal Purpose of Grace. It was by the Purpose of God that sin should enter the world and death by sin Rom 5:12. You see death was the way Christ was to die for the Purpose of Grace Heb 2:9.

Also in the Creation of Adam, God Created in him a principle of death, and assured him that he was surely going to eat and die Gen 2:17

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

He had to die because in the Eternal Purpose of God, Christ had to die .

So the Death and Sin entering the World by Adam Rom 5:12 was in according to God's Purpose of Grace in Christ. It was God's Purpose that sin should enter the world and death by sin, it was no fluke, no mistake, no backup plan, no, it was all according to God's Infinite Wisdom Rom 11:33

33 [B]O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

That word wisdom means:

ii.the wisdom of God as evinced in forming and executing counsels in the formation and government of the world and the scriptures.

Adam's Transgression was brought forth according to God's Purpose in Christ and in Creation Col 1:16

16 For by him[Christ] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him[Christ], and for him[Christ]:

For Christ before the World was ever Created, was already, in the Eternal Purpose of Grace, the Slain Lamb !

According to you, the principle of death was created by God.

According to you, God forced by decree, Adam to bring sin (which God authored) and the principle of death (which God created) into a world where suffering, pain, and sorrow, are caused by hatred, anguish, rape , murder, disobedience to parents, idolatry, witchcraft, bad attitudes, pride, and all the other sin which God authored.

According to you, God is the author of all the sin in the world that the Bible speaks about.

Do I understand correctly? Is that why you got an attitude towards me? Because according to you, Adam wasn't the author of sin, God was. And you can't see how a good God could author something so terrible. Your not alone; I can't see it either. The Bible doesn't say anywhere that God authored sin. That's your logical conclusion.

beloved57
April 15th, 2014, 12:58 PM
blackb


Why do you continue to have an attitude?

You the one being evasive !

blackbirdking
April 15th, 2014, 02:27 PM
blackb



You the one being evasive !

Evasive or not, the Bible says nowhere that God authored sin. You made it up by means of irrational logic. You need to accept truth and not alter it to fit your theological logic; then apologize to everybody that reads your poor logic and beg their forgiveness for trying to lead them away from truth. What are you going to answer God at the judgment when He asks why you taught that He authored adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like? Shame....shame.... one would think you would know better.

beloved57
April 15th, 2014, 03:13 PM
Evasive or not, the Bible says nowhere that God authored sin. You made it up by means of irrational logic. You need to accept truth and not alter it to fit your theological logic; then apologize to everybody that reads your poor logic and beg their forgiveness for trying to lead them away from truth. What are you going to answer God at the judgment when He asks why you taught that He authored adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like? Shame....shame.... one would think you would know better.

Evasion !

Nanja
April 15th, 2014, 03:54 PM
Adam must sin according to being made for the Lord Jesus Christ and His Eternal Purpose of Redemption, for all things, including Adam and those in him were made by and for the Lord Jesus Christ Col 1:16 !

Also according to the Divine Purpose Adam must be given a Law in order for him to Transgress the Command of God, for if he would have obeyed the law or command, then that would have been counter to God's Purpose in Christ, whereas Christ had already been constituted the Lamb slain from the foundation Rev 13:8

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Also 1 Pet 1:18-20

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Yes, the Redeeming blood of Christ was foreordained before the foundation, hence before Adam was Created, who can deny that ?

If Adam would have rendered perfect obedience and gained Eternal Life, that would have defeated the Eternal Purpose of creating all things for Jesus Christ.

Scripture does declare that Christ was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, before it began, and that all things were made by Him and for Him Col 1:16 as He was before all things Col 1:17, then all things were made by Him and for Him in that Capacity of being slain before the foundation !

Thats why Adam must sin, and transgress the Law of God, for in the Eternal Purpose of God, He had already been wounded for our transgressions Isa 53:5

But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

The wounded for our transgressions is the same as the being the slain Lamb from the foundation !


Excellently explained! The Lamb was slain in the Eternal Purpose of God before the world and Adam were even created.
Also, Adam had all of the Elect Seed in him as their Federal Head; those which God had already chosen and predestined
to become saved from their sins by the Blood and Death of Jesus Christ, before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4-9 KJV),
according to the counsel of His Own Will (Eph. 1:11 KJV). Yes, Adam's sinning was surely ordained of God.

~~~~~

beloved57
April 15th, 2014, 05:28 PM
Excellently explained! The Lamb was slain in the Eternal Purpose of God before the world and Adam were even created.
Also, Adam had all of the Elect Seed in him as their Federal Head; those which God had already chosen and predestined
to become saved from their sins by the Blood and Death of Jesus Christ, before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4-9 KJV),
according to the counsel of His Own Will (Eph. 1:11 KJV). Yes, Adam's sinning was surely ordained of God.

~~~~~

Bless you , you are the only one here that responds favorablely to the Gospel Truth !

Posted from the TOL App!

Nanja
April 15th, 2014, 06:22 PM
Bless you , you are the only one here that responds favorablely to the Gospel Truth !

Posted from the TOL App!


God is glorified in His People through His Spirit (John 14:17 KJV).
They are witnesses to Christ and His Gospel. And He has anointed you, and blessed you,
in the preaching of the Word of Truth (Eph. 1:13 KJV); (Rom. 10:15 KJV).

God sends His Preacher to those who have ears to hear (Acts 28:28 KJV),
because spiritual Life has been given to them! (John 10:27-28 KJV)

All praise and glory to our God and Saviour Jesus Christ! (Hos. 13:4 KJV)

~~~~~

blackbirdking
April 15th, 2014, 06:49 PM
Excellently explained! The Lamb was slain in the Eternal Purpose of God before the world and Adam were even created.
Also, Adam had all of the Elect Seed in him as their Federal Head; those which God had already chosen and predestined
to become saved from their sins by the Blood and Death of Jesus Christ, before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4-9 KJV),
according to the counsel of His Own Will (Eph. 1:11 KJV). Yes, Adam's sinning was surely ordained of God.

~~~~~

So you too believe that God ordained sin.

So since sin was ordained(established) by good, you must also believe that sin is good. The same cause that caused sin, also caused good. Sin and good are of the same cause, therefore sin and good are synonamous; there really is no difference. Now you have a predicament; whether you sin or not doesn't matter, because either way you are being led by the same cause: that cause is God. Everybody is elect because everybody is serving God; He causes them to do so.

Now would you explain to me, how someone who teaches Calvinism, can say that anyone needs to be saved from their sins (the sin that God authored and which is good)?

It doesn't matter. He just decided who goes to heaven and who goes to hell. Are you going to heaven for serving God, or are you going to hell for serving God? You can't ever know till you're there, since you're a Calvinist.

beloved57
April 15th, 2014, 06:53 PM
So you too believe that God ordained sin.

So since sin was ordained(established) by good, you must also believe that sin is good. The same cause that caused sin, also caused good. Sin and good are of the same cause, therefore sin and good are synonamous; there really is no difference. Now you have a predicament; whether you sin or not doesn't matter, because either way you are being led by the same cause: that cause is God. Everybody is elect because everybody is serving God; He causes them to do so.

Now would you explain to me, how someone who teaches Calvinism, can say that anyone needs to be saved from their sins (the sin that God authored and which is good)?

It doesn't matter. He just decided who goes to heaven and who goes to hell. Are you going to heaven for serving God, or are you going to hell for serving God? You can't ever know till you're there, since you're a Calvinist.

Evasion !

JosephR
April 15th, 2014, 07:18 PM
you just have to ask for the OP,,what did creation "cost" God?

Speaking into creation 6 days..

What did redemption cost Him,,His Son..

this is a love story without typed words to speak..

blackbirdking
April 15th, 2014, 08:40 PM
Evasion !

I wonder, how would a Calvinist know if God is causing him to believe a lie?

Oh well, it wouldn't matter. What he believes doesn't affect his destiny; it was predetermined by a God who caused all the evil in this world because He needed to cause it so He could have a redemptive purpose.

Isn't it great to be the servant of a God who causes evil? Of course I know I'm not evil, I'm one of the elect; maybe.

beloved57
April 16th, 2014, 11:23 PM
Did God really want Adam to obey that command found in Gen 2:17 ? Lets read Gen 2:16-17

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

I don't believe it was God's Purpose nor design in giving adam that command, for him to render explicit obedience to it , for if He did, then Adam's inclination proved greater than God's Purpose, which would contradict a scripture such as Prov 19:21

21 There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the Lord, that shall stand.

The word devises, the heb word is Machashabah and means:

thought, device thought
device, plan, purpose
invention ,schemes NASB

So if it was really God's Purpose and desgn for adam not to sin by eating of that tree, then adam's desire and the serpents evil scheme proved Greater than God's Purpose and overcame it !

Now such a thought cannot even begin to be entertained for one second to a heart that Truly knows the True God, and Fears Him with Holy Reverence !

Nor was it God's purpose and design in commanding Abraham to sacrifice Isaac his Son, to the point of death, even though Abraham may have perceived it that way, however God's Purpose was made manifest when at the very point Abraham was to deliver the fatal blow, An Angel halted him !

blackbirdking
April 17th, 2014, 05:41 AM
Did God really want Adam to obey that command found in Gen 2:17 ? Lets read Gen 2:16-17

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

I don't believe it was God's Purpose nor design in giving adam that command, for him to render explicit obedience to it , for if He did, then Adam's inclination proved greater than God's Purpose, which would contradict a scripture such as Prov 19:21

That's what Calvinism will do to a person. One believes Calvinism rather than the whole Bible.

21 There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the Lord, that shall stand.

The word devises, the heb word is Machashabah and means:

thought, device thought
device, plan, purpose
invention ,schemes NASB

So if it was really God's Purpose and desgn for adam not to sin by eating of that tree, then adam's desire and the serpents evil scheme proved Greater than God's Purpose and overcame it !

Now such a thought cannot even begin to be entertained for one second to a heart that Truly knows the True God, and Fears Him with Holy Reverence !

...if your a Calvinist,

Job 37:23
As for the Almighty, we cannot find him out: he is excellent in power, and in judgment, and in abundant justice: he will not afflict.

Lamentations 3:33
For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men.


Nor was it God's purpose and design in commanding Abraham to sacrifice Isaac his Son, to the point of death, even though Abraham may have perceived it that way, however God's Purpose was made manifest when at the very point Abraham was to deliver the fatal blow, An Angel halted him !

Why?
Genesis 22:12
'And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me'.

God did not, does not, nor ever will, cause sin. If God causes it, it's not sin. God cannot author, ordain, or will sin. Sin is bad; always. God is good; always. Luke 11:17, 'But he, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house divided against a house falleth.'

Nanja
April 17th, 2014, 07:51 AM
So if it was really God's Purpose and desgn for adam not to sin by eating of that tree, then adam's desire and the serpents evil scheme proved Greater than God's Purpose and overcame it !

Now such a thought cannot even begin to be entertained for one second to a heart that Truly knows the True God, and Fears Him with Holy Reverence !

Nor was it God's purpose and design in commanding Abraham to sacrifice Isaac his Son, to the point of death, even though Abraham may have perceived it that way, however God's Purpose was made manifest when at the very point Abraham was to deliver the fatal blow, An Angel halted him !


I concur. Perfect examples demonstrating God's Purpose over all of His creation, including
the dominion and power of sin (Col. 1:16), to show His Mercy to all His elect ones in Adam.
For Christ saves His People from their sins (Mat. 1:21). But not the devil's children (Rom. 9:14-15,22).

Everything God does shows forth His Glory!

~~~~~

beloved57
April 17th, 2014, 08:53 AM
bbk


That's what Calvinism will do to a person.

More Evasion !

beloved57
April 18th, 2014, 08:24 AM
If adam had not sinned, and he and his posterity in him could have gained the eternal inheritance by his obedience to the covenant of works he was under Hosea 6:7, then the Glory of Eternal Life and Inheritance had gone to Adam and Not Jesus Christ, it could read Rom 6:23b " The Gift of God is Eternal Life through Adam our father "

blackbirdking
April 18th, 2014, 04:13 PM
If adam had not sinned, and he and his posterity in him could have gained the eternal inheritance by his obedience to the covenant of works he was under Hosea 6:7, then the Glory of Eternal Life and Inheritance had gone to Adam and Not Jesus Christ, it could read Rom 6:23b " The Gift of God is Eternal Life through Adam our father "


Silly Calvinist; if Adam had not sinned, why would he need to earn the eternal inheritance? If your not gonna die, why do you need eternal life?

Who would've given Adam glory? If God, what's wrong with that; Adam couldn't be self-righteous or proud if God hadn't caused it; remember?

Quit trying to make Adam's sin look like it was a good thing by your silly logic. You know Adam's sin was bad and you believe God caused it because you believe Calvinism. You know that a God who caused Adam to sin cannot be a good God.

blackbirdking
May 12th, 2014, 07:35 PM
Is God the Author of Sin ?

Yes, most certainly He is,...

Hey, you profess to be a Calvinist, could you show me where Calvin said that God authored sin?

beloved57
May 12th, 2014, 09:08 PM
Hey, you profess to be a Calvinist, could you show me where Calvin said that God authored sin?

What is the title of this thread ?

Posted from the TOL App!

ttruscott
May 13th, 2014, 05:27 PM
How can a foetus, or lets even say a zygote have any "sin in their head"?! :freak:

Your own personal belief system is monstrous. :Plain:

How could Jacob? How could Esau? Yet they were both trying to murder the other in the womb...

Peace, Ted

beloved57
May 22nd, 2014, 10:32 PM
Isa 45:7

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.


God Created Evil, even Moral evil, for the word here for evil, the hebrew rah means:

I.bad, evil
A.
bad, disagreeable, malignant

B.
bad, unpleasant, evil (giving pain, unhappiness, misery)

C.
evil, displeasing

D.
bad (of its kind - land, water, etc)

E.
bad (of value)

F.
worse than, worst (comparison)

G.
sad, unhappy

H.
evil (hurtful)

I.
bad, unkind (vicious in disposition)

J.
bad, evil, wicked (ethically)
i.
in general, of persons, of thoughts

ii.
deeds, actions=Evil deeds or actions

I already know that the athiest in heart cannot receive this Truth, but i will testify to it anyway !

Now God being the Creator of moral evil, is not to say He is the actual doer of the evil, but the first causer of the doer of the evil, for His Purpose Prov 16:4

4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

It is a plain declaration here that God made the wicked, the word for wicked is rasha` :

I.wicked, criminal
A.
guilty one, one guilty of crime (subst)

B.
wicked (hostile to God)

C.
wicked, guilty of sin (against God or man)


The word make means to produce, create , to ordain ! The wicked, they were for His Purpose !

This world was Created, Made for a God Glorifying Redemptive Purpose in Christ Jesus Eph 3:9-11

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

This purpose originated from within God's Own Wisdom Eph 3:10

To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

God did not have to consult His creature and their actions to gain His Wisdom, the though is Blasphemous !

blackbirdking
May 23rd, 2014, 04:55 AM
God Created Evil, even Moral evil, for the word here for evil, the hebrew rah means:

Hey, you profess to be a Calvinist, could you show me where Calvin said that God authored sin?



Did Calvin write that?

According to you, you profess to serve a God who created deceit.

So... again, you admitted, you might be deceived.

Oh, almost forgot; you're smarter than God, you know when you're deceived. Ha, Ha;:bang:

beloved57
May 23rd, 2014, 06:02 AM
black


Did Calvin write that?

Thats something you need to consult calvins writings for the answer for, in the mean time please rehearse and explain back to me what I explained in the post so i can know you understood it and the reasoning I used even though you may not agree !

Desert Reign
May 23rd, 2014, 06:14 AM
For the execution and accomplishment of this Eternal Purpose, God has sovereignly controlled the world from its beginning, and will continue until its consummation, and time will be no more.

All that happens in this world, mysteriously has Soteriological and or Redemptive meaning, that which is both good and evil is included. All has been ordained by God and serves to operate into the displaying the manifold Wisdom of God in the Salvation or Redemption of the Church and His Glorification Through Jesus Christ !

The bolded parts are very true. And I especially like the part in Genesis 1:28 where it says
'I will rule over the birds of the air and the fish of the sea and every living thing as well as every inanimate thing and I will make everything do exactly as I want regardless of what anything else wants or does. I will even make people believe they are doing things that they want when it was only I who was doing everything. And making a load of impotent beings who will marvel at how powerful I am really classifies me as the greatest - it's all for my greater glory so that everyone will know that I am so wise and can do anything I want.'
Great theology! Good points made!

beloved57
May 23rd, 2014, 07:22 AM
1 Pet 1:20

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

When was Christ foreordained according to this verse ? Was it after or before the Creation of the World ?

The word foreordained proginōskō :

I.
to have knowledge before hand

II.
to foreknow
A.
of those whom God elected to salvation


III.
to predestinate

Christ could not have been foreknown, predestinated to be manifested to take away the sins of God's Elect by the sacrifice of Himself had not Moral Evil within God's Own Purpose had been so determined by Him ! He was setup for this in the Eternal Purpose from Everlasting Prov 8:22-23

22 The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

Thats what it means by Peters 1 Pet 1:20

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Also predicting the same Micah 5:2

2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Meaning the predestination of His being manifested in time to be the Elects Redeemer, this has been from Everlasting !

2 Tim 1:9-10

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

God's Eternal Purpose consisted in an engagement with His Mediator Son, is evident that Moral Evil was according to His Eternal Purpose Acts 2:23

23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

The wicked hands were made by God for the day of evil Prov 16:4

4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Those wicked hands was Moral Evil, made to bring to past to fulfill God's Purpose in Christ to be slain Rev 13:8

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

So Moral evil was not an accident, or reluctantly allowed, but purposed and calculated for God's Own Glory in Christ. You see, sin and or moral evil could not have had any existence in God's World, if it would have been in the least contrary to His Purpose and Will, and so its reality must be the result of God's Own Sovereign predeterminate counsel !

blackbirdking
May 24th, 2014, 05:21 AM
So Moral evil was not an accident, or reluctantly allowed, but purposed and calculated for God's Own Glory in Christ. You see, sin and or moral evil could not have had any existence in God's World, if it would have been in the least contrary to His Purpose and Will, and so its reality must be the result of God's Own Sovereign predeterminate counsel !

Genesis 4:7 "If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."

Now we see here the deceptive character imbedded into a kind and gracious God; the word if signifies a choice. We know that according to "God's Own Sovereign predeterminate counsel", that Cain would be reprobate. Yet God uses the word "if" in order to cause Cain to think he had a choice; man was Cain ever deceived!

1 John 3:12, "Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous."

In this verse we see again "God's Own Sovereign predeterminate counsel"; Cain's works were evil because God predetermined them to be evil. So what God really means, is that they are not Cain's works, they are GOD'S works. Again, we see God deceiving the writer and the readers of 1 John 3:12, by causing them to think it was Cain's works.

Jude 1:11, "Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core."

Now here we have a repeat of what we have in 1 John 3:12; the writer and readers of Jude are being led to believe that it was the way of Cain. In all reality, it was the way of God, and He saith well, "Woe unto them!"; for He had deceived Cain according to "His Purpose and Will".

beloved57
May 24th, 2014, 05:58 AM
Genesis 4:7 "If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."

Now we see here the deceptive character imbedded into a kind and gracious God; the word if signifies a choice. We know that according to "God's Own Sovereign predeterminate counsel", that Cain would be reprobate. Yet God uses the word "if" in order to cause Cain to think he had a choice; man was Cain ever deceived!

1 John 3:12, "Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous."

In this verse we see again "God's Own Sovereign predeterminate counsel"; Cain's works were evil because God predetermined them to be evil. So what God really means, is that they are not Cain's works, they are GOD'S works. Again, we see God deceiving the writer and the readers of 1 John 3:12, by causing them to think it was Cain's works.

Jude 1:11, "Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core."

Now here we have a repeat of what we have in 1 John 3:12; the writer and readers of Jude are being led to believe that it was the way of Cain. In all reality, it was the way of God, and He saith well, "Woe unto them!"; for He had deceived Cain according to "His Purpose and Will".






In the mean time please rehearse and explain back to me what I explained in the post so i can know you understood it and the reasoning I used even though you may not agree !


Posted from the TOL App!

blackbirdking
May 24th, 2014, 06:11 AM
Dear Readers,

The God Beloved serves has breathed forth deceit repeatedly throughout the scripture. These verses apply to everybody. You see, Cain went the way of "God's Own Sovereign predeterminate counsel".

Believers who read this:
Are you going the way of "God's Own Sovereign predeterminate counsel"? If so, "Woe unto" you, for you are one of "them".

Jude 1:11-13, "Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core. These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

Dear Reader,
Don't ever presume upon God's grace and assume you are one of His elect; rather commit yourself to "God's Own Sovereign predeterminate counsel" and admit that you are a creation to bring forth glory to God; God the author, creator, mother, of all sin. And since He deceives, remember this; you are but clay in the hands of the potter, to break and destroy at His will.

Romans 11:33, "O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!"

beloved57
May 24th, 2014, 01:52 PM
Dear Readers,

The God Beloved serves has breathed forth deceit repeatedly throughout the scripture. These verses apply to everybody. You see, Cain went the way of "God's Own Sovereign predeterminate counsel".

Believers who read this:
Are you going the way of "God's Own Sovereign predeterminate counsel"? If so, "Woe unto" you, for you are one of "them".

Jude 1:11-13, "Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core. These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

Dear Reader,
Don't ever presume upon God's grace and assume you are one of His elect; rather commit yourself to "God's Own Sovereign predeterminate counsel" and admit that you are a creation to bring forth glory to God; God the author, creator, mother, of all sin. And since He deceives, remember this; you are but clay in the hands of the potter, to break and destroy at His will.

Romans 11:33, "O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!"

Please rehearse and explain back to me what I explained in the post so i can know you understood it and the reasoning I used even though you may not agree !

beloved57
June 1st, 2014, 03:46 AM
Not only did God create moral evil for His Eternal Purpose in Christ as stated in Isa 45:7

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Prov 16:4

4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

The wicked, the word rasha` :

I.wicked, criminal
A.
guilty one, one guilty of crime (subst)

B.
wicked (hostile to God)

C.
wicked, guilty of sin (against God or man)

God made the wicked, the one hostile to God, satan and his seed, for His Purpose !

Now not only that, He also by His Sovereign Power causes men to sin, to be guilty and culpable of sin,

He causes men to act immoral against His Moral Perfections, so He can justly and deservedly punish them for their evil deeds !

We read of Eli's sons 1 Sam 2:22-25

22 Now Eli was very old, and heard all that his sons did unto all Israel; and how they lay with the women that assembled at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

23 And he said unto them, Why do ye such things? for I hear of your evil dealings by all this people.

24 Nay, my sons; for it is no good report that I hear: ye make the Lord's people to transgress.

25 If one man sin against another, the judge shall judge him: but if a man sin against the Lord, who shall intreat for him? Notwithstanding they hearkened not unto the voice of their father, because the Lord would slay them.

Their immorality with the women was purposed and decreed by God because God determined already to to slay them. Thats why they did not listen to their fathers counsel and warning for their immoral and criminal conduct !

If God wanted to, He could have prevented the sons from sinning against Him Gen 20:6

6 And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.


But He decreed and purposed for the sons to act lewdly with the women so He could put them to death justly and He was not at fault or unjust !

Nanja
June 1st, 2014, 06:05 AM
Their immorality with the women was purposed and decreed by God because God determined already to to slay them. Thats why they did not listen to their fathers counsel and warning for their immoral and criminal conduct !

If God wanted to, He could have prevented the sons fro sinning against Him Gen 20:6

6 And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.


But He decreed and purposed for the sons to act lewdly with the women so He could put them to death justly and He was not at fault or unjust !


Absolutely!

God does whatever He pleases Job 23:13 KJV; just as He did with Pharaoh Rom. 9:17 KJV;
He has the right to make his creatures any way He sees fit for His Glory and Purpose Prov. 16:4 KJV.

I believe that only God's election of Grace are given understanding of these truths
regarding the Purpose and Works of Our Father. But the rest cannot comprehend it.

~~~~~

beloved57
June 1st, 2014, 06:29 AM
I believe that only God's election of Grace are given understanding of these truths
regarding the Purpose and Works of Our Father. But the rest cannot comprehend it.

~~~~~
Amen to that, God has blessed you to understand these things !


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Grosnick Marowbe
June 1st, 2014, 06:33 AM
Absolutely!

God does whatever He pleases Job 23:13 KJV; just as He did with Pharaoh Rom. 9:17 KJV;
He has the right to make his creatures any way He sees fit for His Glory and Purpose Prov. 16:4 KJV.

I believe that only God's election of Grace are given understanding of these truths
regarding the Purpose and Works of Our Father. But the rest cannot comprehend it.

~~~~~

However, you must not leave out the fact that, God created
us ALL with free-will choice! We can choose where to place
our faith!

Grosnick Marowbe
June 1st, 2014, 06:35 AM
The bolded parts are very true. And I especially like the part in Genesis 1:28 where it says
'I will rule over the birds of the air and the fish of the sea and every living thing as well as every inanimate thing and I will make everything do exactly as I want regardless of what anything else wants or does. I will even make people believe they are doing things that they want when it was only I who was doing everything. And making a load of impotent beings who will marvel at how powerful I am really classifies me as the greatest - it's all for my greater glory so that everyone will know that I am so wise and can do anything I want.'
Great theology! Good points made!

Good point!

Grosnick Marowbe
June 1st, 2014, 06:37 AM
B57 also believes that God creates ALL sin, and evil! That's not
the God of the Bible!

Nanja
June 1st, 2014, 06:41 AM
Amen to that, God has blessed you to understand these things !

Yes He has, and His blessing is most assuredly also upon you to preach His Truth, by His Grace!

~~~~~

Grosnick Marowbe
June 1st, 2014, 06:43 AM
B57s "truth" changes the character, and intent of the God
of the Bible! The True God!

beloved57
June 1st, 2014, 07:03 AM
Yes He has, and His blessing is most assuredly also upon you to preach His Truth, by His Grace!

~~~~~

It's a great great blessing to know that God is in control of the evil we men do or don't do !

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Nanja
June 1st, 2014, 07:26 AM
It's a great great blessing to know that God is in control of the evil we men do or don't do !

Posted from the TOL App!


Yes. In the knowing of that fact, can we come to the point of experiencing the peace
that passes all understanding which God has promised His People, because they trust
in Him completely. As we observe the the behavior of people and events unfolding all
around us, we are at rest in Him, for He is in complete control of His creation, and His
Will is always Perfect! Phil. 4:6-7 KJV

~~~~~

beloved57
June 1st, 2014, 08:16 AM
Yes. In the knowing of that fact, can we come to the point of experiencing the peace
that passes all understanding which God has promised His People, because they trust
in Him completely. As we observe the the behavior of people and events unfolding all
around us, we are at rest in Him, for He is in complete control of His creation, and His
Will is always Perfect! Phil. 4:6-7 KJV

~~~~~

Amen !

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beloved57
June 2nd, 2014, 10:13 AM
Also we can recall the moral evil of absalom and his lewd conduct that was ordained by God; The sacred story is recorded here 2 Sam 13:1-18 and notice Vs 14:

14 Howbeit he would not hearken unto her voice: but, being stronger than she, forced her, and lay with her.

he raped her, and God's will ordained and purposed it and energized him through his corrupt nature to do it and to be guilty of it. So does God's Purpose CAUSE the moral evil of rape and incest ? YES ! For absaloms rape and incest was one of the results of this Divine Promise 2 Sam 12:11-12

11 Thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.

12 For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.

Also see 2 Sam 16:21-22

21 And Ahithophel said unto Absalom, Go in unto thy father's concubines, which he hath left to keep the house; and all Israel shall hear that thou art abhorred of thy father: then shall the hands of all that are with thee be strong.

22 So they spread Absalom a tent upon the top of the house; and Absalom went in unto his father's concubines in the sight of all Israel.

Furthermore absalom was guilty of moral evil when he went into his fathers concubines in the sight of all Israel ! Now according to scripture who ordained, determined that he do this moral evil ? Was he not but fulfilling the Purpose of God in this ? Again 2 Sam 12:11

11 Thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.

God is taking full credit for this immoral behaviour being done by absalom !

Nanja
June 2nd, 2014, 03:50 PM
God is taking full credit for this immoral behaviour being done by absalom !


Amen, Yes He is!

God is Sovereign in all His Works, fulfilling His Divine Plan and Purpose in all His Creation Perfectly!

Jude 1:25 KJV To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

~~~~~

beloved57
June 2nd, 2014, 03:54 PM
Amen, Yes He is!

God is Sovereign in all His Works, fulfilling His Divine Plan and Purpose in all His Creation Perfectly!

Jude 1:25 KJV To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

~~~~~

See the wicked don't see how God can be the very first cause of mans wickedness and yet hold man accountable for his wickedness ! Its because He is God !

Nanja
June 2nd, 2014, 04:55 PM
See the wicked don't see how God can be the very first cause of mans wickedness and yet hold man accountable for his wickedness ! Its because He is God !

Absolutely. But they don't know God.

Mat. 11:27 KJV - All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father;
neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

~~~~~

beloved57
June 2nd, 2014, 06:17 PM
nanja


But they don't know God.

Sure ya right !

beloved57
June 3rd, 2014, 08:02 AM
Again, David numbering of the people was a terrible , bad and immoral before God, and yet who detrmined that he should do it according to 2 Sam 24:1,10

1 And again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

10 And David's heart smote him after that he had numbered the people. And David said unto the Lord, I have sinned greatly in that I have done: and now, I beseech thee, O Lord, take away the iniquity of thy servant; for I have done very foolishly.

That word moved in Vs 1 is the word cuwth and means:

I.to incite, allure, instigate, entice
A.
(Hiphil)
i.
to incite (to a request)

ii.
to allure, lure

iii.
to instigate (bad sense)

God instigated that David do what David would later confess as this 2 Sam 24:10

10 And David's heart smote him after that he had numbered the people. And David said unto the Lord, I have sinned greatly in that I have done: and now, I beseech thee, O Lord, take away the iniquity of thy servant; for I have done very foolishly.

I know some will quote 1 Chron 21:1

And Satan stood up against Israel, and incited David to number Israel.

Yes that is also true, however satan can only carry out what God had purposed for David to do. Like with Job, it was God who iniated satans leave to attack Job, for the sacred record tells us Job 1:1-8


There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

2 And there were born unto him seven sons and three daughters.

3 His substance also was seven thousand sheep, and three thousand camels, and five hundred yoke of oxen, and five hundred she *****, and a very great household; so that this man was the greatest of all the men of the east.

4 And his sons went and feasted in their houses, every one his day; and sent and called for their three sisters to eat and to drink with them.

5 And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually.

6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.

7 And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

8 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?






Clearly from the sacred text The Lord instigated the whole matter with Job, satan was merely a secondary cause and participant !

Even the wies God fearing Job knew that the evil conduct of the thieves and robbers and murderers were from God, listen to him here afterwards of the first attack of satan Job 1:20-22

20 Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped,

21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.

22 In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.

Why dont you think Job did not say the Lord giveth but the Sabeans hath taken away Job 1:15

And the Sabeans fell upon them, and took them away; yea, they have slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.

Or why did not Job blame the sabeans for the murder of the servants ? Was not their being slain a violation of this commandment Ex 20:13

13 Thou shalt not kill.

Yet it was the Lord that instigated their murder by the sabeans for His Purpose !

So satan in 1 Chron 21:1 is merely a secondary cause carrying out the Sovereign Will of the The First and primary Cause of Davids sin he did 2 Sam 24:1,10 !

beloved57
June 7th, 2014, 02:57 PM
Bearing false witness and all kinds of lying is immoral behaviour, in fact it is stated about all liars Rev 21:8

8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. So its without a doubt an moral evil, yet we read in 1 Kings 22:23

23 Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.

Notice Precisely that The Lord put the lying spirit in the mouth of those prophets, He is the First Cause of their lying, and He will be Just in punishing them along with therse Liars in that Great Day Rev 21:8

8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Also hate is immoral, it even causes some to be called a murderer 1 Jn 3:15

15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

But yet the sacred record informs us of this Ps 105:25

25 He [God] turned their heart to hate his people, to deal subtilly with his servants.

Who is going to lie that this scriptures testifies to the fact that God is responsible for turning these peoples hearts to hate His People and to deal subtilly with them ! The word subtilly means I.to be deceitful, be crafty, be knavish

beloved57
June 8th, 2014, 02:17 PM
God intentionally makes mens hearts hearts obstinate as like Rom 2:5 in conformity to His Purpose, to justly punish them or destroy them Deut 2:30

30 But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the Lord thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand, as appeareth this day.

Notice carefully it reads that God "made his heart obstinate" That word for heart means:

I.inner man, mind, will, heart, soul, understanding

So much for freewill !

To make obstinate, to make firmly stubborn, and its the description that fits the definition of here of what Paul wrote Rom 2:5

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

That word hardness sklērotēs means I.
hardness

II.
obstinacy, stubbornness

Remember what 1 Sam 15:23 says

For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

God purposely hardens men into idolatry and then Justly condemns them to hell for it Rev 21:8

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

beloved57
June 8th, 2014, 02:49 PM
And God is said to actively harden and make stubborn the heart of sihon, that he and his might be smited or destroyed. That also is what is meant that God fits men [the vessels of wrath] for destruction Rom 9:22

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

That word fitted as in fitted to destruction, is the greek word katartizo :

I.to render, i.e. to fit, sound, complete
A.
to mend (what has been broken or rent), to repair
i.
to complete


B.
to fit out, equip, put in order, arrange, adjust
i.
to fit or frame for one's self, prepare

a) I fit (join) together; met: I compact together, (b) act. and mid: I prepare, perfect, for his (its) full destination or use, bring into its proper condition (whether for the first time, or after a lapse).


C.
ethically: to strengthen, perfect, complete, make one what he ought to be

It is said to mean:

of men whose souls God has so constituted that they cannot escape destruction

Like as when Jesus said to these men Matt 23:32-33

32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

And that word katartizó is in the perfect tense, passive and middle voice, and its in the passive first because it is God being the one in control fitting them for destruction because He made them vessels of wrath, and even though they are said to fit themselves also [middle voice] for destruction, thats because they cannot but conform to God's decretive will for them, of Him fitting them for destruction, and the point of the Apostle is that God is being the active Author of them being fitted for destruction, because Paul is only elucidating what he began saying in Vs 18 Rom 9:18

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

That God hardens or makes obstinate whom He wills or purpose to, God hardens is in the present active indicative !

beloved57
June 9th, 2014, 12:58 AM
Isa 63:17

17 O Lord, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.

That word err means :

I.to err, wander, go astray, stagger
A.
(Qal) to err
i.
to wander about (physically)

ii.
of intoxication

iii.
of sin (ethically)

iv.
wandering (of the mind)


B.
(Niphal)
i.
to be made to wander about, be made to stagger (drunkard)

ii.
to be led astray (ethically)


C.
(Hiphil) to cause to wander
i.
to cause to wander about (physically)

ii.
to cause to wander (of intoxication)

iii.
to cause to err, mislead (mentally and morally)

The same word used here

Ps 95:10

Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:

Ps 119:76

I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek thy servant; for I do not forget thy commandments.

Now this scripture Isa 63:17 informs us that God is acknowledged as the First Cause of men sinning against Him, that it is He that Purposed it, as with man in Adam, Paul writes Rom 8:20

20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

That word vanity means :

I.
what is devoid of truth and appropriateness

II.
perverseness, depravity

III.
frailty, want of vigour

Perverseness is:

turned away from or rejecting what is right, good, or proper; wicked or corrupt.

God because of His Eternal Purpose in Christ is the First Cause of men in Adam wandering from Him as sheep both mentally and morally Isa 53:6

6 All we like sheep have gone astray or err; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

And so it was with Adam and Eve and the serpent, for God purposely did not create adam and eve with the moral rectitude to withstand the subtle temptation of the serpent, because it was not His Purpose to, for He could have if He had purposed it for His Glory.

The writer of Isa 63:17 knew and understood that walking in the good ways of God Prov 2:20 ;Hos 14:9 and in His fear, was not a matter of mans freewill decesion as many idolators do and believe today !

For the language of Isa 63:17 is strong and cannot be gainsaid, but God is acknowledged as being the First Cause, that He is causative of their going astray, their wandering out of the way, He MADE them to err, and yet He has every right to hold them accountable for the same ! They acknowledged that it was all of the Sovereign Yaweh that made their hearts hard, or hardened their hearts, made them stubborn, for that is not unusual for God to do, there is Pharoah in Ex 4 and Joshua 11:20

20 For it was of the Lord to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favour, but that he might destroy them, as the Lord commanded Moses.

Its also of the Lord in our day, being the First Cause that men believe a lie instead of the Truth 2 Thess 2:11,12

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Oh what terrible things of Righteousness !

Nanja
June 9th, 2014, 07:54 AM
Isa 63:17

17 O Lord, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.

That word err means :

I.to err, wander, go astray, stagger
A.
(Qal) to err
i.
to wander about (physically)

ii.
of intoxication

iii.
of sin (ethically)

iv.
wandering (of the mind)


B.
(Niphal)
i.
to be made to wander about, be made to stagger (drunkard)

ii.
to be led astray (ethically)


C.
(Hiphil) to cause to wander
i.
to cause to wander about (physically)

ii.
to cause to wander (of intoxication)

iii.
to cause to err, mislead (mentally and morally)

The same word used here

Ps 95:10

Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:

Ps 119:76

I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek thy servant; for I do not forget thy commandments.

Now this scripture Isa 63:17 informs us that God is acknowledged as the First Cause of men sinning against Him, that it is He that Purposed it, as with man in Adam, Paul writes Rom 8:20

20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

That word vanity means :

I.
what is devoid of truth and appropriateness

II.
perverseness, depravity

III.
frailty, want of vigour

Perverseness is:

turned away from or rejecting what is right, good, or proper; wicked or corrupt.

God because of His Eternal Purpose in Christ is the First Cause of men in Adam wandering from Him as sheep both mentally and morally Isa 53:6

6 All we like sheep have gone astray or err; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

And so it was with Adam and Eve and the serpent, for God purposely did not create adam and eve with the moral rectitude to withstand the subtle temptation of the serpent, because it was not His Purpose to, for He could have if He had purposed it for His Glory.

The writer of Isa 63:17 knew and understood that walking in the good ways of God Prov 2:20 ;Hos 14:9 and in His fear, was not a matter of mans freewill decesion as many idolators do and believe today !

For the language of Isa 63:17 is strong and cannot be gainsaid, but God is acknowledged as being the First Cause, that He is causative of their going astray, their wandering out of the way, He MADE them to err, and yet He has every right to hold them accountable for the same ! They acknowledged that it was all of the Sovereign Yaweh that made their hearts hard, or hardened their hearts, made them stubborn, for that is not unusual for God to do, there is Pharoah in Ex 4 and Joshua 11:20

20 For it was of the Lord to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favour, but that he might destroy them, as the Lord commanded Moses.

Its also of the Lord in our day, being the First Cause that men believe a lie instead of the Truth 2 Thess 2:11,12

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Oh what terrible things of Righteousness !


Amen to your entire post!

I acknowledge that God is the First Cause of man sinning against Him, in accordance
with His Divine Eternal Purpose in Christ. The Counsel of God shall stand Prov. 19:21 KJV.
He makes men to err from His ways, and He hardens hearts as He pleases in order to
bring judgment Prov. 16:4KJV. And He is the Giver of Life to those whom it pleased Him
to show them His Mercy! Is. 45:7 KJV; Is. 46:10 KJV

~~~~~

beloved57
June 9th, 2014, 09:16 AM
God intentionally makes mens hearts hearts obstinate as like Rom 2:5 in conformity to His Purpose, to justly punish them or destroy them Deut 2:30

30 But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the Lord thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand, as appeareth this day.

Notice carefully it reads that God "made his heart obstinate" That word for heart means:

I.inner man, mind, will, heart, soul, understanding

So much for freewill !

To make obstinate, to make firmly stubborn, and its the description that fits the definition of here of what Paul wrote Rom 2:5

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

That word hardness sklērotēs means I.
hardness

II.
obstinacy, stubbornness

Remember what 1 Sam 15:23 says

For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

God purposely hardens men into idolatry and then Justly condemns them to hell for it Rev 21:8

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.








Amen to your entire post!

I acknowledge that God is the First Cause of man sinning against Him, in accordance
with His Divine Eternal Purpose in Christ. The Counsel of God shall stand Prov. 19:21 KJV.
He makes men to err from His ways, and He hardens hearts as He pleases in order to
bring judgment Prov. 16:4KJV. And He is the Giver of Life to those whom it pleased Him
to show them His Mercy! Is. 45:7 KJV; Is. 46:10 KJV

~~~~~

May the Lord continue to bless you !

Posted from the TOL App!

chrysostom
June 9th, 2014, 10:56 AM
The Eternal Purpose of Creation !

it is a test of our free will

you have to test it

you are a part of the test

beloved57
June 9th, 2014, 11:42 AM
chrys


The Eternal Purpose of Creation !

it is a test of our free will

What scripture says that ?

chrysostom
June 9th, 2014, 11:51 AM
chrys



What scripture says that ?

10Many shall be refined, purified, and tested, but the wicked shall prove wicked; the wicked shall have no understanding, but those with insight shall. (http://www.usccb.org/bible/daniel/12)

Nanja
June 9th, 2014, 02:12 PM
Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
God intentionally makes mens hearts hearts obstinate as like Rom 2:5 in conformity to His Purpose, to justly punish them or destroy them Deut 2:30

30 But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the Lord thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand, as appeareth this day.

Notice carefully it reads that God "made his heart obstinate" That word for heart means:

I.inner man, mind, will, heart, soul, understanding

So much for freewill !

To make obstinate, to make firmly stubborn, and its the description that fits the definition of here of what Paul wrote Rom 2:5

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

That word hardness sklērotēs means I.
hardness

II.
obstinacy, stubbornness

Remember what 1 Sam 15:23 says

For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

God purposely hardens men into idolatry and then Justly condemns them to hell for it Rev 21:8

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.



Originally Posted by Nanja View Post

Amen to your entire post!

I acknowledge that God is the First Cause of man sinning against Him, in accordance
with His Divine Eternal Purpose in Christ. The Counsel of God shall stand Prov. 19:21 KJV.
He makes men to err from His ways, and He hardens hearts as He pleases in order to
bring judgment Prov. 16:4KJV. And He is the Giver of Life to those whom it pleased Him
to show them His Mercy! Is. 45:7 KJV; Is. 46:10 KJV



May the Lord continue to bless you !

Posted from the TOL App!


And may the Lord continue to bless you, too!

~~~~~

Nanja
June 9th, 2014, 02:44 PM
The Eternal Purpose of Creation !

it is a test of our free will




Do you know that Post #149 has a passage that speaks of someone just like you ?

~~~~~

beloved57
June 9th, 2014, 02:46 PM
10Many shall be refined, purified, and tested, but the wicked shall prove wicked; the wicked shall have no understanding, but those with insight shall. (http://www.usccb.org/bible/daniel/12)

Uh, I asked for the scripture that says this:



The Eternal Purpose of Creation !

it is a test of our free will

beloved57
June 9th, 2014, 04:34 PM
Rom 10:16

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

2 Thess 1:8

In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

1 Pet 4:17

For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Disobedience to Faith in Christ, The Gospel, or the Word , and as immoral as it is, Yet God determined it to be so for many. That was the indication here Lk 2:34

And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against;

That word set is the greek word keimai and means:

A.to be (by God's intent) set, i.e. destined, appointed

He was destined, appointed to be the fall of many in Israel, National, that word fall means:

B.metaph. to fall under judgment, came under condemnation ,vi.to fall out, fall from i.e. shall perish or be lost

Jesus said that one of His Purposes of coming to national Israel was for Judgment and to blind Jn 9:39

39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

That would be the jews who had been given the Law of Moses. This also means that when it is stated that Israel shall be saved in the Lord Isa 45:17 and that all Israel shall be saved Rom 11:26 it was not talking about all ethnic jews of Abraham's physical descendants !

So God has determined that disobedience to the Gospel would be the appointed lot of many people, and again Peter teaches that here 1 Pet 2:8

8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. Confirming Lk 2:34 !

This disobedience is their unbelief that God would cut them off for Rom 11:20-22

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

The word fell here is the same word for fall in Lk 2:34, So Gods severity on them was set Lk 2:34 to be (by God's intent) set, i.e. destined, appointed

This disobedience was to be opposition to the Gospel as Paul as saul acted 1 Tim 1:13

13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

Unbelief is the symptom of an evil heart Heb 3:10-12

10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Notice Vs 10 " They do err in their heart " Does God cause that ? Isa 63 :17

17 O Lord, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.

If we are Believers of the True Gospel, God caused and determined it, If we are disobedient and contrary to the True Gospel, God caused and determined that also !

beloved57
June 10th, 2014, 03:47 AM
One of the purposes of creation, and particular of God's creature man, especially the non elect whom He created for destruction, was to make His Power known, for we read in this context Rom 9:17-22

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

This means that God purposed this situation, to make His Power or Sovereignty and Dominion over the hearts of men known, which is an irresistible power; and that his readers were to understand it that way is clear from the anticipated response to this hard Truth of God now revealed for read Vs 19

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Here is the reasoning, Now if God does exercises such irresistble power over men and their actions, then how can He justly find fault or culpability in them ?? For after all, they are only doing what His Sovereign government over them dictates for them to do , for they really had no freewill choice to do or not to do ! The ways of God here revealed to man by Paul is unfair, not just, not equal Ezk 18:25, but Paul replies in Vs 20

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Basically Paul is saying here, so what of what you think of this matter, For God has a unequivocal right to do as He so pleases with His creature man, for man is but a puppet to God, and what i mean by that word puppet is this:

That all men without exception, that all of our actions are prompted, induced and under the control of God's Power, to fulfill His Own Purpose and good pleasure ! This is fundamental of God in making His Power known, oh how our hearts should bow before Him in this matter !

Nanja
June 10th, 2014, 06:43 AM
beloved57;3906726] #124

So Moral evil was not an accident, or reluctantly allowed, but purposed and calculated for God's Own Glory in Christ. You see, sin and or moral evil could not have had any existence in God's World, if it would have been in the least contrary to His Purpose and Will, and so its reality must be the result of God's Own Sovereign predeterminate counsel !



Truth!

~~~~~

chrysostom
June 10th, 2014, 06:59 AM
Do you know that Post #149 has a passage that speaks of someone just like you ?

~~~~~

would you mind quoting it and showing where?

beloved57
June 10th, 2014, 07:17 AM
Truth!

~~~~~

Thank God for your fellowship in the Truth !

Nanja
June 10th, 2014, 10:29 AM
Thank God for your fellowship in the Truth !


Never cease in thanking Him for yours also! ☺

~~~~~

beloved57
June 10th, 2014, 05:14 PM
When man sins, beginning with adam, yes he sins willingly or consentingly in that which God so determined he would sin willingly in ! So God's Sovereign Decree of determination has predetermined what man can willingly do or not do, if a man commits incest, he did it willingly according to his corrupt sinful nature,by the determinate will and purpose of God, which means this, if it had not been for God's Sovereign determination of it, the mans willful and sinful act of incest would not came about, could not have come to past. You see its like this Ps 76:10

Surely the wrath of man shall praise thee: the remainder of wrath shalt thou restrain.

Mans wrath is just another passion of the flesh James 1:20

For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.

Gal 5:19-20

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

That word restrain in Ps 76:10 it is the hebrew word chagar :

I.to gird, gird on, gird oneself, put on a belt

To gird something is to hem it in, it also means to guard, to restrict !

Spurgeon comments on the verse :


The verse clearly teaches that even the most rampant evil is under the control of the Lord, and will in the end be overruled for his praise.

Back to the point, Yes man is a free agent being being, BUT it is free only within the scope of fulfilling God's counsels and purposes Eph 1:11

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

God has already determined what man can or cannot do with his free agency, and whatsover God has determined, mans free agency conforms to it willingly and responsibly !

beloved57
June 19th, 2014, 07:48 AM
Rev 4:11

11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

By this we know and understand that God in His Purpose is the First Cause of sin, for He is the First cause of Lucifer and Adam, both of them being Created for His Pleasure ! That word pleasure is the greek word thelēma:

I.
what one wishes or has determined shall be done
A.
of the purpose of God to bless mankind through Christ

B.
of what God wishes to be done by us
i.
commands, precepts



II.
will, choice, inclination, desire, pleasure

The Angels, and Man, the Earth / World even were Created for an Eternal Purpose in Christ Jesus Eph 3:9-11, a Purpose whereby God would bless Man through Jesus Christ, this was an Redemptive Purpose or an Soteriological Purpose, meaning it entailed Salvation and or Redemption from sin for the Glorifying of God's Mercy/ Grace and Justice !

It involved the Pleasure of the Lord spoken of here Isa 53:10

Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

Yes, this pleasure of the Lord is the same as the pleasure of the Lord in Rev 4:11 !

Isa 53:10 is speaking of Christ, and this World was Created for Him to carry out and execute the Purpose and pleasure of God !

The word pleasure in Isa 53:10 also means Purpose, of which it is translated so here Ecc 3:1,17

To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work

The wicked and the Righteous were Created for the Purpose of God in Judgment ! Prov 16:4

4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

The day of evil here can also refer to the day of Judgment and wrath for the wicked at the Judgment ! The day of their calamity !

Both Rev 4:11 and Isa 53:10 are speaking within the context and relation of Redemption !

This Purpose of the pleasure of the Lord prospering in the Hand of Christ, after His Soul being made an offering for sin Isa 53:10

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

This was foreordained before the world began 1 Pet 1:20

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Now to see this, and still deny that sin was Created by God's Purpose for the Eternal Purpose of Christ and His Pleasure, is tantamount to atheism, that there is no God, to show such disregard and contempt to His revealed Eternal Purpose in scripture through Christ Jesus !

Nanja
June 19th, 2014, 05:13 PM
Rev 4:11

11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

By this we know and understand that God in His Purpose is the First Cause of sin, for He is the First cause of Lucifer and Adam, both of them being Created for His Pleasure ! That word pleasure is the greek word thelēma:

I.
what one wishes or has determined shall be done
A.
of the purpose of God to bless mankind through Christ

B.
of what God wishes to be done by us
i.
commands, precepts



II.
will, choice, inclination, desire, pleasure

The Angels, and Man, the Earth / World even were Created for an Eternal Purpose in Christ Jesus Eph 3:9-11, a Purpose whereby God would bless Man through Jesus Christ, this was an Redemptive Purpose or an Soteriological Purpose, meaning it entailed Salvation and or Redemption from sin for the Glorifying of God's Mercy/ Grace and Justice !

It involved the Pleasure of the Lord spoken of here Isa 53:10

Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

Yes, this pleasure of the Lord is the same as the pleasure of the Lord in Rev 4:11 !

Isa 53:10 is speaking of Christ, and this World was Created for Him to carry out and execute the Purpose and pleasure of God !

The word pleasure in Isa 53:10 also means Purpose, of which it is translated so here Ecc 3:1,17

To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work

The wicked and the Righteous were Created for the Purpose of God in Judgment ! Prov 16:4

4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

The day of evil here can also refer to the day of Judgment and wrath for the wicked at the Judgment ! The day of their calamity !

Both Rev 4:11 and Isa 53:10 are speaking within the context and relation of Redemption !

This Purpose of the pleasure of the Lord prospering in the Hand of Christ, after His Soul being made an offering for sin Isa 53:10

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

This was foreordained before the world began 1 Pet 1:20

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,




TY for pointing to these Great Truths that declare the Glory of God in His Redemptive Purpose in all of His Creation!

Even after being shown these Truths from the Word of God, most will not find them palatable because,
in their own understanding, they cannot accept the fact that God created sin.

beloved

Now to see this, and still deny that sin was Created by God's Purpose for the

Eternal Purpose of Christ and His Pleasure, is tantamount to atheism, that there is no

God, to show such disregard and contempt to His revealed Eternal Purpose in

scripture through Christ Jesus !


Absolutely!

~~~~~

beloved57
June 19th, 2014, 06:01 PM
TY for pointing to these Great Truths that declare the Glory of God in His Redemptive Purpose in all of His Creation!

Even after being shown these Truths from the Word of God, most will not find them palatable because,
in their own understanding, they cannot accept the fact that God created sin.

beloved


Absolutely!

~~~~~

God ordained sin , evil for a good purpose ! :-)

Posted from the TOL App!

Nanja
June 19th, 2014, 07:34 PM
God ordained sin , evil for a good purpose ! :-)

Posted from the TOL App!

Oh, yes; for sure!

~~~~~

SeraphimsCherub
June 19th, 2014, 09:38 PM
These 3 verses pretty much some up where God's Grace begins to operate upon His elect in the realm of time...according to His Eternal decree in Christ before the foundation of the world.

1. Psa_51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
2.Gal 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
3.Gal 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

SeraphimsCherub
June 19th, 2014, 09:55 PM
God ordained sin , evil for a good purpose ! :-)

Posted from the TOL App!
These two verses perfectly show what your saying. And it also beautifully shows the eternal Redemptive PURPOSE for why Christ Created the world in the first place.

Gen 50:19 And Joseph said unto them, Fear not: for am I in the place of God?
Gen 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

to save much people
to save much people
to save much people
to save much people
to save much people

beloved57
June 20th, 2014, 06:22 AM
These two verses perfectly show what your saying. And it also beautifully shows the eternal Redemptive PURPOSE for why Christ Created the world in the first place.

Gen 50:19 And Joseph said unto them, Fear not: for am I in the place of God?
Gen 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

to save much people
to save much people
to save much people
to save much people
to save much people
Good point !


Posted from the TOL App!

beloved57
June 20th, 2014, 10:13 AM
Now that this world was Created for a Redemptive / Salvation from sin purpose, it is seen in that it was the purpose why some of the Angels were Created, for they are included in the all things here Col 1:16

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

In scripture principalities, powers are known to include Angels ! And we know that Angels were Created for an Soterilogical Purpose involving the Heirs of Salvation Heb 1:13-14

13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

The Heirs of Salvation, for the very word Salvation means:

Saving from Sin Matt 1:21

21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Isa 45:17

17 But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

The Angels were Created for that Purpose ! And so, also was Adam Created for that purpose, subservient to it, and men in him, now who can disagree with this ?

beloved57
June 22nd, 2014, 03:03 PM
In God being the First cause of sin into His World/ Creation, He by His Wisdom, deemed it essential for His Own Glory, and the accomplishment of His Eternal Purpose in Christ Jesus Eph 3:8-11

8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

Even Christ desired and anticipated the Glory and Joy that was to follow His death of redemption for sin, for which He came into the world Heb 12:2

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

When was this Joy set before Him ? We believe before the foundation Prov 8:31

31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights/joy were with the sons of men.

1 Pet 1:11

11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

For these things were set before and appointed the Son of God in the Eternal Counsels before the world began, so it should be quite obvious the world began in order to accomplish the Eternal Purpose in Christ, and hence sin was essential to that Purpose !

beloved57
June 23rd, 2014, 01:56 AM
That God is the First and Primary cause of the evil in our hearts is perceived by the godly david, for his prayer here indicates that Ps 141:4

4 Incline not my heart to any evil thing, to practise wicked works with men that work iniquity: and let me not eat of their dainties.

The word incline here means:

iii.to bend, turn, incline

Or Ps 119:36

36 Incline my heart unto thy testimonies, and not to covetousness.

And coveteousness is Idolatry Col 3:5

Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

And the psalmist prays, to God not to incline his heart to coveteouness which is idolatry !

These verses also show that the truly godly do not believe in freewill of man ! The corruptions of mens hearts are under the government of God's purpose, along with any that may entice them; which goes for the devil, our own evil nature such as James 1:13 ; the originating cause of all evil, to include moral evil, is the will , purpose, or predetermined counsel of God !

God is said to be the doer of the evil, even when subordinate causes were employed by Him, such as in the case with the godly Job, and what saith he to his desponded wife, as evil prevailed in their life ? Job 2:10

10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

Now the word for evil here is the same as that in Isa 45:7 ! Now part of that evil that Job acknowledges as being directly from the Hand of God was ethical and moral evil ! Was not the thieving of his cattle and murder of his servants by the sabeans morally evil of them as per Job 1:14-15

14 And there came a messenger unto Job, and said, The oxen were plowing, and the ***** feeding beside them:

15 And the Sabeans fell upon them, and took them away; yea, they have slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.

Thats Two violations of God's Moral Law Ex 20:13,15

13 Thou shalt not kill.

15 Thou shalt not steal.

And yet Job acknowledges that God was the first cause of those men doing that evil against Him, He actually said God was the doer of the evil !

Job 2:10

10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

Why didnt he say that they received evil from the hand of the devil or from the hands of the sabeans ?

beloved57
July 26th, 2014, 03:21 PM
That the World was Created for a Redemptive Purpose from sin in Christ is quite obvious in the fact that Christ was set up, foreordained to redeem God's Elect before the foundation 1 Pet 1:18-20

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Now, was Adam Created from the dust of the ground before the world was Created ? So why is it that people think that it was not God predetermined will for Adam to sin and bring in the need for Redemption by the blood of Christ Rom 5:12

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

beloved57
August 14th, 2014, 11:37 PM
We know that this world / Earth was made for a Redemptive from sin Purpose in Christ when we consider the Nature of the Vessels of Mercy Rom 9:23

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

The Vessels of Mercy were designated / selected for such before the foundation of the world, or before the world began ! They had been predestinated to be recipients of God Regeneration Mercy that would save them Titus 3:5

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

This blessing bestowed from after becoming experimentally sinful in Adam and the fall ! Now all this was prearranged before Adam ever had a being, hence the Psalmest writes of this Mystery Ps 103:17

17 But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;

What does it mean " from everlasting " ? It means that it was according to God's Eternal Purpose in Christ, before the world began 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace,/and Mercy which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Note: Grace and Mercy are closely akin !

Notice also back in Ps 103:17, it is from Everlasting to Everlasting, not to all mankind, but specifically to THEM that frear Him !

Now how do they come to Fear Him ? None by nature fear God Rom 3:18

18 There is no fear of God before their eyes. Its pride to deny that we are exceptions to this !

How does one receive the Fear of God ? Its given by God when He gives us a New Heart by New Birth Jer 32:39

And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:

This is the result of Regenerating Mercy which gives us a New Heart that Fears and Loves God.

Rom 9:23 again stated :

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Which He had afore prepared unto Glory. This is the language of predestination. The word afore prepared proetoimazó and means:

I prepare or appoint beforehand, predestine. This was something already prepared and made ready in advance, In the Immutable Purpose of God :


i. e. for whom he appointed glory beforehand (i. e., from eternity), and, accordingly, rendered them fit to receive it, Romans 9:23; to prepare beforehand in mind and purpose, i. e. to decree, Ephesians 2:10,

In fact, it was the purpose of sin that would render them fit to become the experimental partakers of Mercy !

http://biblehub.com/greek/4282.htm

beloved57
October 8th, 2014, 02:04 AM
Romans 16:27

To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

This world was Created for an Redemptive Purpose founded in the Person and Work of Jesus saving sinners ! Thats why the earth was brought into being, that Jesus Christ would one day utter these words Jn 19:30

When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

And also these words Jn 17:4

I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

Now the World, the Earth was Created for that particular Work The Father gave the Son to do !

Now, since the world was Created for that work of Christ to be finished by Him, then also was Adam created by God in harmony with this Work given to Christ to do and finish !

Now in order for Adam and man in him to harmonize with God's Eternal Purpose in Christ Jesus Eph 3:11

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

In order for that to concur, Adam by the predetrminate counsel of God must sin and bring mankind in him to be made sinners,

Rom 5:12,19

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Now this them being made sinners, was no deviation from God's Eternal Purpose in Christ, but was in fact in harmony with it, because God had all the time Purposed that He should be Worshiped by man in Spirit and Truth as a Saved by Grace Sinner, Saved by the Person and Work of the Lord Jesus Christ. See it was by the Grace of God that Christ tasted Death for the saved by Grace ones ! See Heb 2:9, which was how God purposed to bring man His Creation to Glory Heb 2:10 !

See, If man in Adam had not sinned, he could not come to God in Spirit and Truth having been Saved by the Grace of God through the Person and Work His Son ! For it was always true of Christ from the beginning of the Creation this Jn 14:6

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Adam and man in him was not able to come to the Father in this matter until after the Fall.

Before the fall, man could approach God soely as his Creator, but not on the basis of the Redemptive Purpose in Christ Jesus, which Purpose was only revealed to Adam after the Fall here Gen 3:15

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

When this Saving Purpose was made known, it was then and only then was man able to begin to Worship God in Spirit and Truth and to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God How ?

1 Pet 2:5

Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

Thats Just another way of saying what Jesus stated here Jn 4:22-24

22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

The Only way that can happen is to worship God out of apprehension/ understanding of His Salvation Purpose through the Lord Jesus Christ.

Then can we be in harmony with the stated Text Rom 16:27

27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

beloved57
November 10th, 2014, 04:17 PM
Rom 8:17-23

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

This World was made for a Redemptive Purpose centered in the Redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

Before what is written in Gen 1:1-3


In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.


The Eternal Decree was Established, that God would be Glorified upon the Earth by the Work of His Son, remember Jesus said Jn 17:4

4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

This Work was given Him to do from Everlasting as stated here as Christ is Wisdom Personified Prov 8:22-31

22 The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

When God made this Earth in the beginning, it was for this Purpose here Rom 8:19

19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

In these Bodies Rom 8:23

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

All of this was predestinated from everlasting. God did not make Adam and then adam sinned and God needed to intervene , No, Adam's sin was purposed by God in order to set the world stage for he outworking of the Redemption that was already predestinated, foreknown before the world began 1 Pet 1:20

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Foreordained for what before the foundation ? 1 Pet 1:18-19

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

That was the Work God gave Him to do Jn 17:4 before the World Began !

beloved57
November 11th, 2014, 07:57 AM
The Primary Purpose for the Creation of the World, and everything therein, was for the Event of the Cross of Christ, all other things were subordinate to that, for Paul writing to the Colossians about Christ's fulness writes Col 1:14-17

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

All things were Created for Him, Adam and Eve, and everything else, for the Purpose of Redemption through His Blood Vs 14 !

When God Created the Earth it was for the Purpose of Christ redeeming it through His Blood, and thats why Adam must surely die Gen 2:17

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

See, before God uttered those words to Adam, this event had alreay been purposed Acts 2:23

23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Even before the foundation Rev 13:8

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

1 Pet 1:20

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Adam bringing sin and death into the world was no accident, neither was it God's second choice of things as to say that He would rather Adam not sin and bring in the devastating results of sin and death, but it was His First and Primary Purpose that he do so , to set the stage for mans redemption through the blood of Christ, according to His Eternal Purpose Eph 3:11

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

Nanja
November 11th, 2014, 08:50 AM
All of this was predestinated from everlasting. God did not make Adam and then adam sinned and God needed to intervene , No, Adam's sin was purposed by God in order to set the world stage for he outworking of the Redemption that was already predestinated, foreknown before the world began 1 Pet 1:20

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Foreordained for what before the foundation ? 1 Pet 1:18-19

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

That was the Work God gave Him to do Jn 17:4 before the World Began !


Most certainly true!

God's Purpose in Christ being the Lamb Slain from before creation Rev. 13:8
clearly shows and points to the Everlasting Covenant of Grace made in eternity
whereby Christ the Lamb was made a Surety for His Elect Sheep Heb. 13:20.
So this proves that it was God's Purpose that they would sin,
before He even created the world through Jesus Christ.

Some ask, why would God do this? I believe that it was His Desire to lavish His Mercy
on His Sons whom He had chosen in Christ before the foundation Rom. 9:23; Ps. 103:17,
all according to the riches of His Grace Eph 2:7; 2 Tim. 1:9; in contrast to the reprobate
of mankind which He created to be vessels of His wrath Rom. 9:22; Job 21:30; Prov. 16:4
which God also created for His Purpose Acts 2:23.

~~~~~

beloved57
November 11th, 2014, 10:33 AM
nanja


So this proves that it was God's Purpose that they would sin,
before He even created the world through Jesus Christ.

Yes Mam, and what we believe is called by some supralapsarianism, meaning that God from the First intention and Purpose Created the World for the Purpose of Christ dying to Redeem a People for His Name Sake.

That Christ being the Wisdom of God 1 Cor 1:24

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

That He was not set up to be its Redeemer after God foresaw Adam's sin, but that Adams fall was decreed in accordance with God's Eternal Redemptive in Christ was already Established.

Before Adam was ever Created with the Elect in him, God had already purposed that Christ would Glorify Him upon the Earth by an Redemptive Work, which Christ alludes to here Jn 17:4

I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

So Adam's Fall responded to God's Eternal Purpose in Christ, and Not the Eternal Purpose of God in Christ responding to Adam's Fall, a Great Big Difference !

Nanja
November 11th, 2014, 11:00 AM
nanja



Yes Mam, and what we believe is called by some supralapsarianism, meaning that God from the First intention and Purpose Created the World for the Purpose of Christ dying to Redeem a People for His Name Sake.

That Christ being the Wisdom of God 1 Cor 1:24

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

That He was not set up to be its Redeemer after God foresaw Adam's sin, but that Adams fall was decreed in accordance with God's Eternal Redemptive in Christ was already Established.

Before Adam was ever Created with the Elect in him, God had already purposed that Christ would Glorify Him upon the Earth by an Redemptive Work, which Christ alludes to here Jn 17:4

I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

So Adam's Fall responded to God's Eternal Purpose in Christ, and Not the Eternal Purpose of God in Christ responding to Adam's Fall, a Great Big Difference !

TY...and Exactly stated! ☺

beloved57
November 11th, 2014, 11:04 AM
nanja


TY...and Exactly stated!

Praise Him !

Nanja
November 11th, 2014, 11:09 AM
nanja



Praise Him !

Praise Him !

~~~~~

1Mind1Spirit
November 11th, 2014, 12:06 PM
Praise Him !

~~~~~

Was noticin' yer motto.

Let's praise Him.

This is a good tune check out the lyrics.

lfldLLadNWk

beloved57
November 11th, 2014, 01:05 PM
Was noticin' yer motto.

Let's praise Him.

This is a good tune check out the lyrics.

lfldLLadNWk

Invalid comments, why don't you address the points I made in the posts ?

beloved57
November 12th, 2014, 02:33 AM
Eph 3:9-11

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

Adam was Created for the Mystery that was in Christ, which was hid in God, who all things were Created because of !

Those words in Vs 9 "who created all things by Jesus Christ"

That word by preposition dia :


I.through

A.of place

i.with


ii.in



B.of time

i.throughout


ii.during



C.of means

i.by


ii.by the means of




II.through

A.the ground or reason by which something is or is not done

i.by reason of


ii.on account of


iii.because of for this reason


iv.therefore


v.on this account

It serves a multitude of meanings here, The World was Created In Christ, meaning Adam and the World in his Loins, the World was Created on account of Christ, and by means of Christ as Mediator !

The same thing is indicated in Col 1:16

16 For by[in] him[Christ] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him[Christ], and for him[Christ]:

This means that Adam was Created in Christ !

Now by Adam being Created in Christ, it was also for an Redemptive Purpose, and this is why also he was made or Created in the Image and Likeness of God in the beginning Gen 1:26-27

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.


Again, this is in accordance to the Mystery hid in God Eph 3:9

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

beloved57
November 12th, 2014, 04:01 AM
Now that its an Established fact from scripture that Adam was Created in Christ, Col 1:16

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

For "For by him were all things created" can just as well read :

"For in him were all things created"

16 for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and ASV


16 For it was in Him that all things were created, in heaven and on earth, things seen and things unseen, whether thrones, dominions, rulers, or authorities; all things were created and exist through Him and in and for Him.AMP

Therefore His Redemptive Death reconcile all things to Himself Col 1:20

And, having made peace through the blood of his cross,[B] by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

The same all things that were Created in Him pointed out back up in Vs 16 !

So Adam's being Created in the Image and Likeness of God is due to His Union with Christ, for he is in Christ before the foundation Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

We know this applies to Adam simply because Adam, included in the all things of Col 1:16, was Created in Christ, so thats the connection to having been Created in the Image and Likeness of God, for Christ is that Image and Likeness 2 Cor 4:3-4

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Christ is the Image of God !

Again Heb 1:3

Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

So actually, Christ's does purge the sins of those who were Created in the Image and Likeness of God in Adam, because Adam was Created in Him , who is the Very Image of God !

beloved57
November 12th, 2014, 07:05 AM
In Light of Adam being Created in Christ and in the Image of God, he and mankind in him, God's Elect Chosen in Christ before the foundation, have been predestinated to be conformed to the image of Christ, as a confirmation of being Created in the Image of God in the beginning Rom 8:28-30

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

All those in Adam, in the Day God Created him Gen 1:27

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

That Image is only realized in the New Creation Eph 4:24

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Yes, The New Man is the fulfillment of having been initially Created in the Image of God in Gen 1:26-27 !

You see, being Created in the Image of God was never to be found in the natural man, that was only a subplot to the main Glory God had in store for Man, to be fulfilled through Redemption, and the Spirit's activity as well 2 Cor 3:18

But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

This was not possible in the natural, in Adam !

1Mind1Spirit
November 12th, 2014, 11:21 PM
In Light of Adam being Created in Christ and in the Image of God, he and mankind in him, God's Elect Chosen in Christ before the foundation, have been predestinated to be conformed to the image of Christ, as a confirmation of being Created in the Image of God in the beginning Rom 8:28-30

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

All those in Adam, in the Day God Created him Gen 1:27

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

That Image is only realized in the New Creation Eph 4:24

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Yes, The New Man is the fulfillment of having been initially Created in the Image of God in Gen 1:26-27 !

You see, being Created in the Image of God was never to be found in the natural man, that was only a subplot to the main Glory God had in store for Man, to be fulfilled through Redemption, and the Spirit's activity as well 2 Cor 3:18

But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

This was not possible in the natural, in Adam !

Told yuh several months ago this would come to yuh.

My strictness with you has not been off base.

No fall my brother, it was the Fathers plan to create sons in the Father and son's combined image.

Let us make man in our image.

Father and son.

beloved57
November 13th, 2014, 12:44 AM
Told yuh several months ago this would come to yuh.

My strictness with you has not been off base.

No fall my brother, it was the Fathers plan to create sons in the Father and son's combined image.

Let us make man in our image.

Father and son.
Evasion and Rabbit Trail !

1Mind1Spirit
November 13th, 2014, 08:54 AM
Evasion and Rabbit Trail !

Not at all.

If Adam was so good, how did he fall?

Answer is, he couldn't and didn't.

You see, Father has shown us the end from the beginning.

That is..... to put it simply........ sinners in paradise.

Think about it, and dont be half steppin'.:idea:

Nanja
November 13th, 2014, 09:18 AM
In Light of Adam being Created in Christ and in the Image of God, he and mankind in him, God's Elect Chosen in Christ before the foundation, have been predestinated to be conformed to the image of Christ, as a confirmation of being Created in the Image of God in the beginning Rom 8:28-30

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

All those in Adam, in the Day God Created him Gen 1:27

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

That Image is only realized in the New Creation Eph 4:24

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Yes, The New Man is the fulfillment of having been initially Created in the Image of God in Gen 1:26-27 !

You see, being Created in the Image of God was never to be found in the natural man, that was only a subplot to the main Glory God had in store for Man, to be fulfilled through Redemption, and the Spirit's activity as well 2 Cor 3:18

But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

This was not possible in the natural, in Adam !


Amen to all 3 parts!

So then, I understand that the fellowship of the mystery in Eph. 3:9
can only be realized by those in Christ's Body, chosen in Him before
the foundation Eph 1:4 to the adoption of Sons. They are the "all" that will see,
or be enlightened to understand, God's Eternal Purpose of Creation in their New Birth.
For only they, as their natural head Adam, were created in the Image and Likeness of God,
and consequently, they only, will be given to have this kind of intimate fellowship / koinonia with Christ.

And just to let you know... this whole thread is a very enlightening and comprehensive study in the Scriptures.
TY for all your work! ☺

~~~~~

beloved57
November 13th, 2014, 09:30 AM
Not at all.

If Adam was so good, how did he fall?

Answer is, he couldn't and didn't.

You see, Father has shown us the end from the beginning.

That is..... to put it simply........ sinners in paradise.

Think about it, and dont be half steppin'.:idea:
Evasion and Rabbit Trail continued !

beloved57
November 13th, 2014, 09:35 AM
Amen to all 3 parts!

So then, I understand that the fellowship of the mystery in Eph. 3:9
can only be realized by those in Christ's Body, chosen in Him before
the foundation Eph 1:4 to the adoption of Sons. They are the "all" that will see,
or be enlightened to understand, God's Eternal Purpose of Creation in their New Birth.
For only they, as their natural head Adam, were created in the Image and Likeness of God,
and consequently, they only, will be given to have this kind of intimate fellowship / koinonia with Christ.

And just to let you know... this whole thread is a very enlightening and comprehensive study in the Scriptures.
TY for all your work! ☺

~~~~~
It was mainly for you my Sister !

1Mind1Spirit
November 13th, 2014, 10:41 AM
Evasion and Rabbit Trail continued !

Look, I already laid all that out months ago.

God's intent from the beginning was to create sons.

Sorry kid, not gonna pat you on the back for half steppin'.

Glad yer learnin'.

beloved57
November 13th, 2014, 10:47 AM
Look, I already laid all that out months ago.

God's intent from the beginning was to create sons.

Sorry kid, not gonna pat you on the back for half steppin'.

Glad yer learnin'.

Evasion and Rabbit trail continued !

Nanja
November 13th, 2014, 11:22 AM
It was mainly for you my Sister !

Awesome! So thankful for you, dear Brother. Praise God!

~~~~~

beloved57
November 13th, 2014, 11:26 AM
Awesome! So thankful for you, dear Brother. Praise God!

~~~~~

Amen ! For the rest, I am afraid it only served to heighten their condemnation !

Nanja
November 13th, 2014, 11:31 AM
Amen ! For the rest, I am afraid it only served to heighten their condemnation !

May His Will be done!

~~~~~

beloved57
November 13th, 2014, 11:36 AM
May His Will be done!

~~~~~

Amen, even that aspect of it is sacred !

beloved57
November 25th, 2014, 12:43 PM
We know that Man in the beginning was Created for a Redemptive Purpose through Christ, which necessitated mans sin in the world, because, it was God's First and Primary design that man live through Christ unto His Glory 1 Jn 4:9

9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

Or other words so that we might live because of Him, or on account of Him, the word through being the prep dia meaning:

through, on account of, by reason of, for the sake of, because of.

The Life that God first designed according to His Eternal Redemptive Purpose in Christ, was much more abundant than that first given in Adam Jn 10:10

10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

But yet ignorant and unlearned men believe that this Purpose of Abundant Life through Christ was God's backup plan to man first having life through Adam !

The fact is, the Living through Christ 1 Jn 4:9, the abundant life Jn 10:10 it was not possible through Adam even before the fall of man, no it was a Life given them in Christ before the world began.

Also it was God's Purpose that man live through Christ in response to Redemptive Love 1 Jn 4:9-10

9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

And again this Life was not at all possible in Adam before the Fall into sin, and all True Christian service to God should be in response to Redemptive Love in Christ, as Paul writes as being true of himself, its true of all true believers 2 Cor 5:14-15

14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

It was God's Purpose even for man in Adam to Live not unto themselves, but unto Him that died for them and rose again, that was never secondary in God's Purpose, to believe so is blasphemy !

beloved57
November 25th, 2014, 04:57 PM
Its absolutely amazing how any True Born Again Believer with a knowledge of the Truth 2 Thess 2:13, will not believe that it was God's will of purpose that Adam should sin in the garden when and how he did, according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Such unbelief manifests an ignorance to the purpose for which this world/earth was Created, an Eternal Purpose in Jesus Christ Eph 3:9-11

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: See Jn 1:3 in this connection !

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

In fact, the very name of Jesus denotes Salvation its greek word Iésous:

Iēsoús – Jesus, the transliteration of the Hebrew term, 3091 /Lṓt ("Yehoshua"/Jehoshua, contracted to "Joshua") which means "Yahweh saves" (or "Yahweh is salvation").

Understand something, when the world / earth was Created, even before Adam existed upon it, God had already appointed Christ as the Redeemer by His Blood, this we know for sure by 1 Pet 1:18-20

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Yes, for God's foreknown and Elect People 1 Pet 1:1-2 to be redeemed by the precious blood of the Lamb, it was established before the foundation of the world, so it would be idiotic of God to Create Adam and Desire that he would not sin !

Also Rev 13:8 testifies to Christ in the Eternal Purpose of God being slain for the Redemptive Purpose before the foundation !

Now with that in mind, why would so called believers reason that after God created Adam, it would have been God's first preference/choice that Adam would not Transgress, that God would have rather Adam not sin; Now would Adam not sinning brought God more Honor and Glory than Christ does because of mans sin ?

beloved57
November 25th, 2014, 05:41 PM
Now with that in mind, why would so called believers reason that after God created Adam, it would have been God's first preference/choice that Adam would not Transgress, that God would have rather Adam not sin; Now would Adam not sinning brought God more Honor and Glory than Christ does because of mans sin ?

If any man answers yes to this question its nothing but the manifestation of an heart of unbelief, there is honestly no other way of putting it, there is no Faith in Christ if we indeed believe that. The Truth is that even before Adam was Created, God had already purposed the Salvation and Redemption from sin, given His People Grace in Christ Jesus before the world began 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Now listen, why would God rather not Adam sin by and through temptation by the Serpent, the Devil ? Would not that only be according to His Counsel ?

beloved57
November 26th, 2014, 05:09 AM
If God had not already given His People Grace in Christ Jesus before the world began 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Eph 3:11

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

Then there would have been no Eternal Foundation for the Gospel, for look what follows 2 Tim 1:9 @ Vs 10

10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

In other words, the Truths of Vs 9 are connected to the Preaching of the Gospel in Vs 10, which God hath ordained before for our Glory 1 Cor 2:7

7 [B]But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

And what is the Wisdom of God here ? Its Christ as stated earlier in the epistle 1 Cor 1:24

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

And also to Preach Christ is to Preach a Mystery Col 4:3

Withal praying also for us, that God would open unto us a door of utterance, to speak the mystery of Christ

And so Christ is the Wisdom of God in 1 Cor 2:7 ! And that why we have a verse such as 2 Tim 1:9, which reveals a Mystery about Christ, and Grace given believers in Him before the world began, and there is no Preaching Christ rightly without elucidating the Mystery of the Eternal Purpose in Christ Jesus ! And of course this confirms that it was God's Purpose in Christ that Adam sinned !

Nanja
November 26th, 2014, 04:36 PM
If God had not already given His People Grace in Christ Jesus before the world began 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Eph 3:11

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

Then there would have been no Eternal Foundation for the Gospel, for look what follows 2 Tim 1:9 @ Vs 10

10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

In other words, the Truths of Vs 9 are connected to the Preaching of the Gospel in Vs 10, which God hath ordained before for our Glory 1 Cor 2:7

7 [B]But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

And what is the Wisdom of God here ? Its Christ as stated earlier in the epistle 1 Cor 1:24

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

And also to Preach Christ is to Preach a Mystery Col 4:3

Withal praying also for us, that God would open unto us a door of utterance, to speak the mystery of Christ

And so Christ is the Wisdom of God in 1 Cor 2:7 ! And that why we have a verse such as 2 Tim 1:9, which reveals a Mystery about Christ, and Grace given believers in Him before the world began, and there is no Preaching Christ rightly without elucidating the Mystery of the Eternal Purpose in Christ Jesus ! And of course this confirms that it was God's Purpose in Christ that Adam sinned !


Yes, it undoubtedly does, as you have clearly illustrated by comparing the scriptures in all 3 parts! 1 Cor. 2:13.

~~~~~

beloved57
November 26th, 2014, 04:55 PM
Yes, it undoubtedly does, as you have clearly illustrated by comparing the scriptures in all 3 parts! 1 Cor. 2:13.

~~~~~
I Thank God you are here to receive the testimony of the Gospel !

Nanja
November 26th, 2014, 06:00 PM
I Thank God you are here to receive the testimony of the Gospel !


And I also am thankful to God that you are here to preach that Gospel testimony to His Glory !

~~~~~

beloved57
November 26th, 2014, 06:02 PM
And I also am thankful to God that you are here to preach that Gospel testimony to His Glory !

~~~~~
That is a Great Blessing !

Nanja
November 26th, 2014, 06:05 PM
That is a Great Blessing !

For me also! ☺

~~~~~

beloved57
December 15th, 2014, 04:34 AM
We believe this World/Earth to be created or made for a specific Redemptive Purpose, Salvation in Christ, because of the creation of Angels. Who wants to deny that its revealed they were Created for Christ when we consider scriptures Col 1:16

16 For by him[Christ the Mediator] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by[Christ] him, and for him[Christ the Mediator]:

Note: Christ's existed as Mediator of Man prior to the Creation of Adam Prov 8:22-32

Then we find the stated purpose of the Angels Heb 1:13-14

13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

This world was Created for the Heirs of Salvation, the Church 1 Cor 3:21-23

21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are your's;

22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are your's;

23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

In fact this could be the main rteason that lead to the revolt of Lucifer, being envious of Man's destiny, and a Honor to man he was subservient to !

Scriptures on eny Prov 14:30

A sound heart is the life of the flesh: but envy the rottenness of the bones.

Prov 27:4

Wrath is cruel, and anger is outrageous; but who is able to stand before envy?

Matt 27:18

For he knew that for envy they had delivered him.

Acts 7:9

And the patriarchs, moved with envy, sold Joseph into Egypt: but God was with him,

Again, I believe that lucifers revolt had something to do with envy, being envy of the High Honor God had destined Man unto, of which his kind would be subservient to ! All this however serves to prove that this world was created for a Redemptive Purpose in Christ !

Nanja
December 15th, 2014, 08:33 AM
We believe this World/Earth to be created or made for a specific Redemptive Purpose, Salvation in Christ, because of the creation of Angels. Who wants to deny that its revealed they were Created for Christ when we consider scriptures Col 1:16

16 For by him[Christ the Mediator] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by[Christ] him, and for him[Christ the Mediator]:

Note: Christ's existed as Mediator of Man prior to the Creation of Adam Prov 8:22-32

Then we find the stated purpose of the Angels Heb 1:13-14

13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

This world was Created for the Heirs of Salvation, the Church 1 Cor 3:21-23

21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are your's;

22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are your's;

23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

In fact this could be the main reason that lead to the revolt of Lucifer, being envious of Man's destiny, and a Honor to man he was subservient to !

Scriptures on eny Prov 14:30

A sound heart is the life of the flesh: but envy the rottenness of the bones.

Prov 27:4

Wrath is cruel, and anger is outrageous; but who is able to stand before envy?

Matt 27:18

For he knew that for envy they had delivered him.

Acts 7:9

And the patriarchs, moved with envy, sold Joseph into Egypt: but God was with him,

Again, I believe that lucifers revolt had something to do with envy, being envy of the High Honor God had destined Man unto, of which his kind would be subservient to !



Very good point!

I agree with your thoughts on this, and Scriptures support its feasibility.



All this however serves to prove that this world was created for a Redemptive Purpose in Christ !


Absolutely it was, and perfectly orchestrated by God to fulfill
His Purpose in Christ and His Church; His Everlasting Kingdom.

Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven,
shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

~~~~~

beloved57
December 15th, 2014, 08:34 AM
Very good point!

I agree with your thoughts on this, and Scriptures support its feasibility.





Absolutely it was, and perfectly orchestrated by God to fulfill
His Purpose in Christ and His Church; His Everlasting Kingdom.

Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven,
shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

~~~~~

Amen !

beloved57
December 18th, 2014, 09:04 AM
We know this world was made for a redemptive purpose in Christ, who is the Wisdom of God 1 Cor 1:24

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

The Psalms helps us understand this Ps 104:24

24 O Lord, how manifold are thy works! in wisdom[Christ]
hast thou made them all: the earth is full of thy riches.

Ps 136:5

5 To him that by wisdom[Christ] made the heavens: for his mercy endureth for ever.

Prov 3:19

19 The Lord by wisdom[Christ] hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens.

By Him, the Wisdom of God was all things made Jn 1:3

3 All things were made by him[Christ]; and without him was not any thing made that was made

So to detach the Creation of the World from a Redemptive Purpose in Christ, who is the Wisdom of God, and a Gospel Truth 1 Cor 1:24,30 is ignorance to God's Eternal Purpose for this World Eph 3:8-11

8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

beloved57
December 19th, 2014, 12:49 AM
We know this world was created for a Redemptive Purpose in Christ that should culminate in the Marriage of the Lamb to His Wife Rev 19:7-9

Revelation 19:7-9King James Version (KJV)

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Thats why at Creation the First Marriage took place with Adam and Eve Gen 2:18-25


18 And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

19 And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.

21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

22 And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.


And in Vs 24 He goes back to the beginning prior to the Fall, and Paul refers back to that point in connection with His summary of the Redemptive Death of Christ and the Church, so it pictured Christ and the Church, a Mystery Eph 5:25-32


25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.





The Creation of the World was founded upon that Great Mystery Eph 3:9-11 !

It was the Eternal Purpose of God that there would be a Marriage between His Son the Lamb slain from the foundation, and those He would redeem by His Blood ! Rev 19:7-9

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

patrick jane
December 19th, 2014, 02:04 AM
real simple. it really doesn't take several pages of posts and scripture. it can, if that's what helps you understand. at the risk of over simplification, RETURN TO GOD. from whence we came. when OUR Will is the same as God's Will, it is finished. forever. sounds easy huh ?

beloved57
December 23rd, 2014, 12:08 PM
Jn 12:27

Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

This scripture indicates that this World was Created for a Redemptive Purpose in Christ, centered in His Cross, the Work the Father gave Him to do, to finish before the foundation of the World Jn 17:4

4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. Note: When did the Father give Him this Work to do ?

1 Peter gives us to know this 1 Pet 1:18-20

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

This Blood redemption by the Lamb was foreordained before the foundation of the World, So its feasible He knew of it before the foundation of the World.

Now if that be the case, why does so many deny that this world was Created for a Redemptive Purpose in Christ ?

1Mind1Spirit
December 23rd, 2014, 01:13 PM
Jn 12:27

Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

This scripture indicates that this World was Created for a Redemptive Purpose in Christ, centered in His Cross, the Work the Father gave Him to do, to finish before the foundation of the World Jn 17:4

4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. Note: When did the Father give Him this Work to do ?

1 Peter gives us to know this 1 Pet 1:18-20

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

This Blood redemption by the Lamb was foreordained before the foundation of the World, So its feasible He knew of it before the foundation of the World.

Now if that be the case, why does so many deny that this world was Created for a Redemptive Purpose in Christ ?

It depends on what you think redeemed means.

This age was created to make sons of God.

beloved57
December 23rd, 2014, 01:20 PM
It depends on what you think redeemed means.

This age was created to make sons of God.

You evaded my points !

1Mind1Spirit
December 23rd, 2014, 01:23 PM
You evaded my points !

No, I agree with them.

I'm just bringing in the rest of the story. :thumb:

beloved57
December 23rd, 2014, 01:43 PM
No, I agree with them.

I'm just bringing in the rest of the story. :thumb:

Ok then explain them back to me !

1Mind1Spirit
December 23rd, 2014, 03:12 PM
Ok then explain them back to me !

I agree with them according to my understanding of redemption.

You will have to elaborate on them according to your understanding of it.

To properly understand redemption, you must first understand that Adam owed nothing.

There was no fall.

Adam transgressed.

Adam did not regress.

To transgress is to carry forward what was already there.

The scriptures say that Adam transgressed, nothing about regressing.

Romans 5:14 KJV

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come .

1 Timothy 2:14 KJV

14 And Adam was not deceived , but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.


Envy is just one of the things already in man.

James 4:5 KJV

5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?

Nanja
December 23rd, 2014, 04:34 PM
Jn 12:27

Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

This scripture indicates that this World was Created for a Redemptive Purpose in Christ, centered in His Cross, the Work the Father gave Him to do, to finish before the foundation of the World Jn 17:4

4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. Note: When did the Father give Him this Work to do ?

1 Peter gives us to know this 1 Pet 1:18-20

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

This Blood redemption by the Lamb was foreordained before the foundation of the World, So its feasible He knew of it before the foundation of the World.

Now if that be the case, why does so many deny that this world was Created for a Redemptive Purpose in Christ ?


Because they are in a lost state 2 Cor. 4:3-4, their understanding is darkened Eph. 4:18.
The natural man will only seek after the god of his own understanding; that's all he is capable of.

~~~~~

beloved57
December 24th, 2014, 03:40 AM
1m1s


I agree with them according to my understanding of redemption.

Then you were deceptive ! I did not ask you to explain your understanding of redemption !

beloved57
December 24th, 2014, 03:41 AM
Because they are in a lost state 2 Cor. 4:3-4, their understanding is darkened Eph. 4:18.
The natural man will only seek after the god of his own understanding; that's all he is capable of.

~~~~~

Thats exactly True !

1Mind1Spirit
December 24th, 2014, 04:03 AM
1m1s



Then you were deceptive ! I did not ask you to explain your understanding of redemption !

I was in no way deceptive.

You brought in redemption as the purpose of creation.

I gave you the truth of redemption, do you agree or disagree?

beloved57
December 24th, 2014, 12:43 PM
I was in no way deceptive.

You brought in redemption as the purpose of creation.

I gave you the truth of redemption, do you agree or disagree?
Yeah you were deceptive as well as evasive !

beloved57
December 26th, 2014, 06:04 PM
As I have been able to set forth Christ as being the Purpose for the Creation of the World, A Redemptive Purpose centered in Him, Eph 3:9-11 ; Col 1:14-18 it would not be complete to Highlight the fact that since Christ is the Ultimate Purpose in Creation, then so is His Body the Church, His Redeemed Bride, who will also shine forth His Perfections and Glory; She will partake in the Manifestation of Her Glorious Bride Groom, whi is the Eternal Logos / Word, One in the Triune Godhead !

When Jesus said Jn 17:24

Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

That Glory is His Mediatorial Glory as the Head of His Body the Church, so His Body is part of that Glory of His ! Isa 46:13

I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.

beloved57
April 28th, 2015, 02:55 AM
Ps 103:17

But the mercy of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;

Rom 9:23

And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

We know and understand that God designed this world for a Redemptive Purpose in Christ, which involved sin, because of what we read in Ps 103:17

But the mercy of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;

Now how could God's Mercy be from Everlasting, unless it was Purposed upon some from Everlasting, and Mercy finds its objective cause from sin and misery, the publican cried Lk 18:13

13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

You see, it was from Everlasting that God established Chosen Vessels of Mercy Rom 9:23

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

John Gill comments on Ps 103:17 :


But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him,.... In opposition to the frailty of man, the stability and duration of the mercy of God is observed. This reaches from one eternity to another; it is from everlasting in the heart of God: it appeared in the choice of the vessels of mercy; in the covenant of grace, which is founded upon it,

Now the word mercy here in Ps 103:17 is the hebrew word checed:

It means favour and is translated as Covenant Loyalty,

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/psalms/103-17.htm

So this Favor, Covenant Loyalty or Faithfulness is From Everlasting, which indicates its the fruit of the Everlasting Covenant, It was due to a Covenant of Peace Isa 54:10

10 For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the Lord that hath mercy on thee.

That Mercy from Everlasting Ps 103:17 is the fruit of this Covenant of Peace, Its for the Vessels of Mercy, they were Chosen in Christ before the foundation, in the Eternal Purpose of Christ Eph 3:11, and it was God's purpose to imprison them into unbelief/sin in pursuit of this Mercy, to have Mercy upon all the Vessels of Mercy Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all[The Vessels of Mercy] in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

beloved57
July 21st, 2015, 10:52 AM
God from Everlasting had decreed Mercy for the Elect of God, in that when the Elect sinned in Adam, it was according to a preordain Purpose of Mercy, for they had already been designated Vessels of Mercy aforetime Rom 9:23


23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,


God before the foundation had purposed their regeneration accorfing to His Mercy Titus 3:5


5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;


Regenerating Mercy was purposed for them from Everlasting Ps 103:17


17 But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;


They fear Him from Regenerating Mercy, for by nature no man fears God Rom 3:18


18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.


This World was Created for a Merciful Purpose to display God's Mercy, not on all mankind, but upon the Vessels of Mercy, the Election of Grace !

beloved57
September 21st, 2015, 02:37 PM
Man was Created in Adam to be redeemed by Jesus Christ, in who's Image and Likeness Adam with Eve was Created in, and through Christ's Redemptive Cross, the Purpose for Man in Adam is Established, being made in the Image and Likeness of God. For scripture is clear about this, Col 1:14-17

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Christ in His Redemptive Purpose is Before all things !

Man is ultimaetly is the Image and Likeness of God as theyr are conformed to the Image of Christ Rom 8:29

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

2 Cor 3:18

But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

This Image never depended upon our natural creation in Adam, but our Spiritual Creation in Christ !

Nanja
September 22nd, 2015, 03:50 PM
Man was Created in Adam to be redeemed by Jesus Christ, in who's Image and Likeness Adam with Eve was Created in, and through Christ's Redemptive Cross, the Purpose for Man in Adam is Established, being made in the Image and Likeness of God. For scripture is clear about this, Col 1:14-17

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Christ in His Redemptive Purpose is Before all things !

Man is ultimaetly is the Image and Likeness of God as theyr are conformed to the Image of Christ Rom 8:29

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

2 Cor 3:18

But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

This Image never depended upon our natural creation in Adam, but our Spiritual Creation in Christ !



Yes, in the beginning, all the Elect sinned in Adam when he sinned as our federal head,
and this was all according to God's Eternal Purpose in Christ Jesus.

So, our becoming Born Again actually confirms that we are one whom God had predestined
to be conformed to His Image Rom. 8:29, and we come to experimentally manifest His Image
in our becoming a new Spiritual man.

Col. 3:10
And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

1 Cor. 15:49
And as we have borne the image of the earthy (in Adam), we shall also bear the image of the heavenly (Christ).

And so we bear the image of Christ our Surety Heb. 7:22, the Image of God's Son Rom. 8:29.

~~~~~

beloved57
September 22nd, 2015, 04:03 PM
Yes, in the beginning, all the Elect sinned in Adam when he sinned as our federal head,
and this was all according to God's Eternal Purpose in Christ Jesus.

So, our becoming Born Again actually confirms that we are one whom God had predestined
to be conformed to His Image Rom. 8:29, and we come to experimentally manifest His Image
in our becoming a new Spiritual man.

Col. 3:10
And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

1 Cor. 15:49
And as we have borne the image of the earthy (in Adam), we shall also bear the image of the heavenly (Christ).

And so we bear the image of Christ our Surety Heb. 7:22, the Image of God's Son Rom. 8:29.

~~~~~

Absolutely!

Eric h
September 22nd, 2015, 05:36 PM
10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.


Just a thought, but for Christ to die for us, must mean that Christ loves us as he loves himself.

aikido7
September 22nd, 2015, 06:30 PM
Eph 3:7-11

7Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

8Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

Col 1:14-16

14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

The creation of the world was Soterilogical and Redemptive for all intents and purposes..

Gen 1:1

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

This is where God begins to manifest a Divine Eternal Purpose, which He eons afore time, purposed in Himself, the Triune God..

This Eternal Purpose was predicated upon God manifesting His redemptive [from sin] wisdom of His Chosen People, the Vessels of Mercy Rom 9:23..

Hence from all eternity God, That the world He created through Jesus Christ Eph 3:9 would be for the display of His manifold wisdom and grace in the redemption of Chosen lost sinners. Eph 3:10

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

For the execution and accomplishment of this Eternal Purpose, God has sovereignly controlled the world from its beginning, and will continue until its consummation, and time will be no more.

All that happens in this world, mysteriously has Soteriological and or Redemptive meaning, that which is both good and evil is included. All has been ordained by God and serves to operate into the displaying the manifold Wisdom of God in the Salvation or Redemption of the Church and His Glorification Through Jesus Christ !Good luck puzzling out the ultimate answer. I have long concluded that I am humble and finite and do not know the fullness of God--or ever will.

I love it when Job asks God why the good suffer or "Why am I here?" And then God, out of the whirlwind, blasts him with an awesome schooling in natural history!

patrick jane
September 22nd, 2015, 06:37 PM
Just a thought, but for Christ to die for us, must mean that Christ loves us as he loves himself.

more -

patrick jane
September 22nd, 2015, 06:39 PM
I was in no way deceptive.

You brought in redemption as the purpose of creation.

I gave you the truth of redemption, do you agree or disagree?

adisgree

1Mind1Spirit
September 22nd, 2015, 08:44 PM
adisgree

ad is gree what......?

:crackup:

patrick jane
September 22nd, 2015, 09:05 PM
ad is gree what......?

:crackup:

somebody asked somebody else - agree or disagree ? so with my brilliance i said adisgree

could be

agreedis or disgreeda ? :chuckle:

Eric h
September 22nd, 2015, 09:08 PM
Good luck puzzling out the ultimate answer. I have long concluded that I am humble and finite and do not know the fullness of God--or ever will.



Here is a simplistic yet profound way to test the power of the greatest commandments, possibly to an ultimate truth. If you choose to read further then search for something greater than I have written.

What purpose can be so great, that it would compel God to create the universe and life, knowing in advance the suffering of mankind and that his son would die? Would it be to forgive the sins of mankind, or can there be something greater?

Challenge your mind to find a greatest good purpose for creation; by searching for answers to three questions.

What greatest thing can God create?
God could create all the stars and planets of the universe; he then becomes God the builder.
God could create a whole variety of life with almost no intelligence like plants; he now becomes God the gardener' God could create life with more intelligence like the animal kingdom. He now becomes God the farmer. God could create life in his own image, a life that could understand him. He now become God the Father. Can God create anything greater than children in his own image, Does the greatest thing that God creates, depend on the relationship that he can have with them?

What greatest purpose can God have to create children in his own image?
Could the ultimate God be a God who loves in the greatest way? God the Father willingly loves all of mankind as he loves HIMSELF.
Can there be any greater reason to create children, even for God; can God love us more than he loves himself? In a way, God loves us more than he loves himself, because he sent his Son to die for us. In a contradicting way, God loves himself more than us, because he is the greatest being in the universe and retains the power of heaven or hell over us. We can never have the wisdom to understand the fullness of God’s love during our lifetime, but to dare to think that God loves each and every one of us as he loves himself is indeed a profound thought.

To find a greatest purpose for all God's children.
What greatest purpose could God set for humanity? Would it be for everyone to turn to His kind of religion and pray the way that he stipulates, or would it be to banish poverty, gain intellectual superiority, conquer sickness and death, and subdue the universe or is there more?
If the greatest reason God could have to create mankind, is to love us, as he loves himself, then God could create mankind, with the freedom to return God's love
All of mankind to be created with the freedom to love God the creator unconditionally, are we given the greatest commandment as a guide for this very purpose?
God willingly loves everyone as he loves himself; do we also need this same freedom to love everyone in the same way, so that the truth can be complete for God and mankind.
All of mankind, to be created with the freedom to love their neighbour; as they love themselves unconditionally; are we given the second greatest commandment as a guide?
Is this how God wants his children to be one? He wants us to love each other as we love ourselves, despite our differences.
Could the greatest commandments be a Greatest and Ultimate Truth?

John 15 – As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you.

Just some rambling thoughts to challenge the mind to think.

aikido7
September 22nd, 2015, 09:23 PM
Here is a simplistic yet profound way to test the power of the greatest commandments, possibly to an ultimate truth. If you choose to read further then search for something greater than I have written.

What purpose can be so great, that it would compel God to create the universe and life, knowing in advance the suffering of mankind and that his son would die? Would it be to forgive the sins of mankind, or can there be something greater?

Challenge your mind to find a greatest good purpose for creation; by searching for answers to three questions.

What greatest thing can God create?
God could create all the stars and planets of the universe; he then becomes God the builder.
God could create a whole variety of life with almost no intelligence like plants; he now becomes God the gardener' God could create life with more intelligence like the animal kingdom. He now becomes God the farmer. God could create life in his own image, a life that could understand him. He now become God the Father. Can God create anything greater than children in his own image, Does the greatest thing that God creates, depend on the relationship that he can have with them?

What greatest purpose can God have to create children in his own image?
Could the ultimate God be a God who loves in the greatest way? God the Father willingly loves all of mankind as he loves HIMSELF.
Can there be any greater reason to create children, even for God; can God love us more than he loves himself? In a way, God loves us more than he loves himself, because he sent his Son to die for us. In a contradicting way, God loves himself more than us, because he is the greatest being in the universe and retains the power of heaven or hell over us. We can never have the wisdom to understand the fullness of God’s love during our lifetime, but to dare to think that God loves each and every one of us as he loves himself is indeed a profound thought.

To find a greatest purpose for all God's children.
What greatest purpose could God set for humanity? Would it be for everyone to turn to His kind of religion and pray the way that he stipulates, or would it be to banish poverty, gain intellectual superiority, conquer sickness and death, and subdue the universe or is there more?
If the greatest reason God could have to create mankind, is to love us, as he loves himself, then God could create mankind, with the freedom to return God's love
All of mankind to be created with the freedom to love God the creator unconditionally, are we given the greatest commandment as a guide for this very purpose?
God willingly loves everyone as he loves himself; do we also need this same freedom to love everyone in the same way, so that the truth can be complete for God and mankind.
All of mankind, to be created with the freedom to love their neighbour; as they love themselves unconditionally; are we given the second greatest commandment as a guide?
Is this how God wants his children to be one? He wants us to love each other as we love ourselves, despite our differences.
Could the greatest commandments be a Greatest and Ultimate Truth?

John 15 – As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you.

Just some rambling thoughts to challenge the mind to think.It is interesting to think there are still some people around who can divine God's purpose and be arrogant enough to be secure in the notion that they can proclaim it to others in some pure, divine and untouchable form. I guess I am still often surprised to still hear it from posters such as yourself.

I just don't think that makes any common sense at all. How can we actually think "we" have the answer? I look within and see a struggling sinner, trying to do the right thing by picking up my cross and moving forward, always forward.

So sorry, to be blunt--I do not share your theological formulations.

Eric h
September 22nd, 2015, 10:16 PM
It is interesting to think there are still some people around who can divine God's purpose and be arrogant enough to be secure in the notion that they can proclaim it to others in some pure, divine and untouchable form. I guess I am still often surprised to still hear it from posters such as yourself.

I just don't think that makes any common sense at all. How can we actually think "we" have the answer? I look within and see a struggling sinner, trying to do the right thing by picking up my cross and moving forward, always forward.

So sorry, to be blunt--I do not share your theological formulations.

Fair enough, as I said, they are just some rambling thoughts to challenge the mind to think.

Jesus said two commandments are greatest, so if you were searching for an ultimate answer, these commandments seem a logical place to start.

And just a thought, when Jesus spent his time on Earth, would these commandments have had a greatest meaning for him too?

I cannot comprehend the greatness of God. But in challenging the greatest commandments in this way, I am starting to have some small understanding of their importance for ourselves. They seem to lead towards justice for the poor and oppressed. We struggle to do the will of our Lord.

Blessings

Eric

beloved57
November 4th, 2015, 11:37 AM
Matt 25:34

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Its the Kingdom the Apostle to the Gentiles writes of here 2 Tim 4:18

And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Again this Kingdom is an Heavenly Kingdom, and Adam, man in Adam in their first beginning in the Garden before the fall, while yet having not sinned, even then was not fit for the Heavenly Kingdom, because Adam was naturally in his best estate but flesh and blood, whereas God had determined from the foundation this Grand Truth 1 Cor 15:50

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

That Kingdom that those on Christ Right Hand Inherit Matt 25:34

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Its the same Kingdom Paul says this about in 1 Cor 15:50

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Man in Adam was also Made subject to corruption and mortality, which disqualified Adam and his Seed to inherit the Kingdom that was prepared for some from the foundation !

Only those who were to be Born Again from incorruptible Seed, were to inherit the Kingdom prepared from the foundation Matt 25:34 !

Nanja
November 6th, 2015, 09:09 AM
Matt 25:34

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Its the Kingdom the Apostle to the Gentiles writes of here 2 Tim 4:18

And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Again this Kingdom is an Heavenly Kingdom, and Adam, man in Adam in their first beginning in the Garden before the fall, while yet having not sinned, even then was not fit for the Heavenly Kingdom, because Adam was naturally in his best estate but flesh and blood, whereas God had determined from the foundation this Grand Truth 1 Cor 15:50

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

That Kingdom that those on Christ Right Hand Inherit Matt 25:34

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Its the same Kingdom Paul says this about in 1 Cor 15:50

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Man in Adam was also Made subject to corruption and mortality, which disqualified Adam and his Seed to inherit the Kingdom that was prepared for some from the foundation !

Only those who were to be Born Again from incorruptible Seed, were to inherit the Kingdom prepared from the foundation Matt 25:34 !


Amen! It was God's Redemptive Purpose in Christ, in His Suretyship Heb. 7:22; Rev. 13:8,
for Adam, and the Elect Seed in him, to sin so they could be made Spiritual, Born Again John 3:3,
and Inherit the Kingdom that He prepared for them, His Adopted Sons Eph. 1:4-5, before the foundation Mat. 25:34.

Praise Him! ☺

~~~~~

beloved57
November 6th, 2015, 10:00 AM
Amen! It was God's Redemptive Purpose in Christ, in His Suretyship Heb. 7:22; Rev. 13:8,
for Adam, and the Elect Seed in him, to sin so they could be made Spiritual, Born Again John 3:3,
and Inherit the Kingdom that He prepared for them, His Adopted Sons Eph. 1:4-5, before the foundation Mat. 25:34.

Praise Him! ☺

~~~~~

Very Good!

beloved57
November 10th, 2015, 03:03 PM
Now because it was an Heavenly Kingdom, the Elect of God, the Heirs of God, in their natural head Adam, had not yet been made meet for the Eternal Kingdom of God, which God had prepared for them from the foundation Matt 25:34

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

But in Adam they were only made flesh and blood, as stated in Heb 2:14

14 Forasmuch then as the children[heirs Rom 8:16-17] are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Now being in Adam, and in him only natural flesh and blood, they were not yet prepared or made meet for that Glorious Inheritance they were to Inherit. No they would only be made prepared for it through Union with Christ, the Adam from Heaven 1 Cor 15:47

The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

Their Heirship to the Heavenly Kingdom came not because of their natural union with adam at creation, but because of a Eternal Union in Christ before the foundation of Creation. They were in Christ before being in adam, and by their Election in Christ prior, they were Heirs of God and Joint Heirs with Christ Rom 8:17

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

It was always a necessity for the Heirs to be redeemed by Christ to fit them for their Heavenly Heirship !

beloved57
December 14th, 2015, 11:57 AM
We know this World was Created for a Redemptive Purpose in Christ because of the end of Predestination. God before the foundation of the World had chosen a People in Christ unto the Adoption of Children/Sons [in time] Eph 1:3-5

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

BTW, only those who in Time receive the Adoption of Sons by the Spirit coming into them Rom 8:15-16

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Then they were not Chosen in Christ before the foundation as in Eph 1:4, .

Pay attention to Eph 1:5 for its in accordance to having been Chosen in Christ before the foundation in Vs 4, and only some were Predestinated to the Adoption of Children by Jesus Christ.

The word Children here are the greek words huiothesia one word is huios and primarily means a Son, and the other word is tithēmi and means to place, to set,

Its the Divine act in Time whereby God sends the Spirit of God into our hearts that we become the Manifested Sons of Adam Gal 4:6

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

They were always secretly Sons of God because of their Election Union in Christ, but its veiled by their natural connection with Earthy Adam.

This is also connected with their being being predestinated to be conformed to the Image of their Elder Brother, Gods Son, Jesus Christ Rom 8:29

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

This also means they were predestinated to be born again ! And the Adoption of Sons comes through Christ and His Redemptive Death Gal 3:13-14;Eph 1:7, So Redemption by His Blood was Predestinated before the foundation Eph 1:4 and Adam was Created under that Eternal Redemptive Purpose !

beloved57
December 28th, 2015, 02:51 AM
Theres no doubt that the Word of God teaches that all things created were so for Jesus Christ Col 1:15-16

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for/unto him:

This would include the Creation of Adam and Eve, man in Adam in the beginning , when God said Gen 1:26

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

It was for /unto Redemptive Glory in and through Jesus Christ. Now Col 1:14 is connected to Col 1:16-17, and so Man in Adam was Created for Redemption, Forgiveness of sins through Christ's Blood, for it was only through this means that Man would fulfill the God ordained purpose for his Creation, in being made in the Image and Likeness of God; For that could not have been accomplished or fulfilled in Adam in his flesh, seeing that at his best estate he was only natural, carnal, and mutable, none of which can constitute the True Image and Likeness of God, for it was always to be achieved through the Redemption in and through Christ Process.

So when God gave Adam the Command not to eat of that particular tree Gen 2:16-17

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

The Command was given in connection and subordinate to the Redemptive Purpose in Christ where Forgiveness of sins is appropriate Col 1:14

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Lets not forget that All things were Created for The Saviour/Redeemer Jesus Christ Col 1:16 in how He was to Glorify His Father upon the Earth Jn 17:4-5 , a Work given Him to do before the World began, and it had to do with Redemption through His Blood !

Nanja
December 30th, 2015, 07:09 AM
We know this World was Created for a Redemptive Purpose in Christ because of the end of Predestination. God before the foundation of the World had chosen a People in Christ unto the Adoption of Children/Sons [in time] Eph 1:3-5

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

BTW, only those who in Time receive the Adoption of Sons by the Spirit coming into them Rom 8:15-16

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Then they were not Chosen in Christ before the foundation as in Eph 1:4, .

Pay attention to Eph 1:5 for its in accordance to having been Chosen in Christ before the foundation in Vs 4, and only some were Predestinated to the Adoption of Children by Jesus Christ.

The word Children here are the greek words huiothesia one word is huios and primarily means a Son, and the other word is tithēmi and means to place, to set,

Its the Divine act in Time whereby God sends the Spirit of God into our hearts that we become the Manifested Sons of Adam Gal 4:6

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

They were always secretly Sons of God because of their Election Union in Christ, but its veiled by their natural connection with Earthy Adam.

This is also connected with their being being predestinated to be conformed to the Image of their Elder Brother, Gods Son, Jesus Christ Rom 8:29

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

This also means they were predestinated to be born again ! And the Adoption of Sons comes through Christ and His Redemptive Death Gal 3:13-14;Eph 1:7, So Redemption by His Blood was Predestinated before the foundation Eph 1:4 and Adam was Created under that Eternal Redemptive Purpose !


Praise the Lord!

Receiving the Spirit of Adoption is proof and evidence that a person was
predestinated from Eternity Eph. 1:4-5 to be one of God's Adopted Children.
For each one of them shall come to experience this Great Miracle in Time!

~~~~~

beloved57
December 30th, 2015, 07:11 AM
Praise the Lord!

Receiving the Spirit of Adoption is proof and evidence that a person was
predestinated from Eternity Eph. 1:4-5 to be one of God's Adopted Children.
For each one of them shall come to experience this Great Miracle in Time!

~~~~~

Amen.