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El DLo
November 16th, 2009, 03:51 PM
So last night I stumbled upon this forum (to be honest I don't actually recall how as it was far later than I should have been awake). Well at first I was skeptical, thinking that it would be another message board full of closed-minded individuals that bash everything that they don't represent. To my surprise I discovered that this site is full of people of every religion and denomination of every religion. I never thought that in a place called "Theology Forum" I would find a place where I could freely post as an Atheist and not be automatically ridiculed for my beliefs.

That said, as my topic suggests, my name is Dan. I'm a tad younger than most people on this site are from what I can tell (I'm a freshman in college), but don't take that to mean that I'm ignorant to what I'm talking about. As you can see, my beliefs are rooted in science and reasoning as I am an Atheist. There are many Atheists out there who are blatantly ignorant and who take a stance of sheer superiority and closed-minded arrogance to the thoughts and beliefs of any other people. I am not one of those Atheists.

I make it an integral part of life to understand the beliefs and practices of other cultures. I come here, not as a rambunctious teenager who is dead-set on converting every last person to an Atheist, but as an educated young man who understands and respects the beliefs of all other people on here.

In a similar vein of understanding, I do not expect to have people attempt to convert me. I understand that beliefs are something that people hold dear, but I know, and everyone should know as well that religious beliefs in any form are something that a person has to find for themselves. Generally speaking, I have heard, read, and understand many of the ideals of several religions that people hold to be absolute truth, and they just don't do it to me.

A little back story on how I arrived at Atheism (as someone is bound to ask me); I started life in a Jewish family. My family was semi-conservative, not excessively, but with some regard to the practices. We kept Kosher in the house, separated our dishware to correspond with the Kosher ideal, went to temple on the high holidays, and enrolled me in Hebrew school. Throughout the entire venture I never entirely bought into the whole religion thing, and when I became old enough to understand what it was that I was reading, I just couldn't find myself a reason to believe what I was reading as truth, and as I delved into the realm of science and reasoning, I found that taking a literal and objective stance on life and the universe was something that appealed to my nature much more than religion could.

Besides that, I'm a musician with a passion for 70s rock, a fanatic of ancient history, and an avid enthusiast of technology. I'm here to find good discussion, not make enemies, so feel free to ask me whatever you please about my beliefs or my upbringing, and you can expect to see me around here more often.

-Dan (El DLo)

bucksplasher
November 16th, 2009, 04:02 PM
and welcome. A humble Atheist for what more could I ask. tWINs

MaryContrary
November 16th, 2009, 04:11 PM
...so feel free to ask me whatever you please about my beliefs or my upbringing, and you can expect to see me around here more often.
Okies. Let's start here...

In a similar vein of understanding, I do not expect to have people attempt to convert me. I understand that beliefs are something that people hold dear, but I know, and everyone should know as well that religious beliefs in any form are something that a person has to find for themselves.
Am I interpreting this correctly as a refusal to allow your beliefs to be challenged?

Welcome to TOL. ;)

El DLo
November 16th, 2009, 04:15 PM
Oh not in the slightest. I welcome for anyone to change my realm of thought, I just expect it to be done in a civilized and factual manner. Far too often I see "The bible clearly says...". I know what the Bible says, and I do not view it as a book of truths, so if someone wishes to challenge my beliefs, it's going to take more than scripture. That's all that I meant by that statement.

chickenman
November 16th, 2009, 04:16 PM
Welcome to TOL, Steely Dan. :wave2:

fool
November 16th, 2009, 04:25 PM
Howdy.
So, where are you at on;
Abortion
Age of the Earth
Assination of JFK
Moon landings
9/11
H1N1
Bigfoot
Aliens
Birth Certificates
Miricles
Ghosts
Demons
Hula hoops
Microwave ovens
?

MaryContrary
November 16th, 2009, 04:33 PM
Oh not in the slightest. I welcome for anyone to change my realm of thought, I just expect it to be done in a civilized and factual manner. Far too often I see "The bible clearly says...". I know what the Bible says, and I do not view it as a book of truths, so if someone wishes to challenge my beliefs, it's going to take more than scripture. That's all that I meant by that statement.

I like you already. :D

You probably won't like me much but that's absolutely okay. As long as I can bring something more than tater salad to your cook out, I'll be happy. :thumb:

El DLo
November 16th, 2009, 04:36 PM
Abortion - Pro Choice. Not to say I'm in favor of abortion, but it's the mother's decision to make.

Age of the Earth - Billions and billions of years old. I believe in the big bang formation of the universe.

Assination of JFK - A tragedy? If you're asking if I believe it was a conspiracy, I just think it was a heated assassination.

Moon landings - Real.

9/11 - Completely caused by terrorists, though I do believe America saw SOME signs of it coming in some regard.

H1N1 - Completely overblown and non-fatal in almost all cases.

Bigfoot - Fabricated photos (though who knows for sure?)

Aliens - Strong believer in the existence of extraterrestrial life in some form, though extremely doubtful of their existence on earth (but not dismissing the idea of alien influence on the beginning of civilization)

Birth Certificates - Not sure what you're looking for in this one.

Miracles - Non-believer. I think that unusual circumstances stand out more than usual circumstances, so a not so impressive occurrence seems to be more than it is (much like when you get the feeling that every time you look at a digital clock, the time is either your birthday or 9:11)

Ghosts - Non-believer. Even if it were possible for the chemicals and electrical impulses that make up the human consciousness to exist outside of the body, they would only last for a fraction of a second before dissipating.

Demons - Non-believer. Not much else to say on this, there's no physical evidence beyond the Bible.

Hula hoops - Quite fun.

Microwave ovens - Fantastic for heating up burritos.

Thunder's Muse
November 16th, 2009, 04:43 PM
Welcome to TOL :)

Spitfire
November 16th, 2009, 04:53 PM
Birth Certificates - Not sure what you're looking for in this one.American presidential birth certificates in particular, I am guessing. :p

El DLo
November 16th, 2009, 04:59 PM
American presidential birth certificates in particular, I am guessing. :p

Ahh, if that's the case, then the Birth Certificate is forged. I'm taking a Journalism class in college, and my professor used to be a chief editor for Newsday. His career specializes in being able to tell if a source is legitimate, and he said that the document that supposedly says Obama is not from America is completely fake.

allsmiles
November 16th, 2009, 05:06 PM
I too am a fan of 70's rock. Do you like the song Never Been Any Reason by Head East? One of my favorites. Listening to it now in point of fact.

I'm also a fan of good spelling :thumb:

Good to see you here.

fool
November 16th, 2009, 05:08 PM
Abortion - Pro Choice. Not to say I'm in favor of abortion, but it's the mother's decision to make. Why shouldn't she decide that before she gets naked?


Age of the Earth - Billions and billions of years old. I believe in the big bang formation of the universe.
Where did the Bang come from?


Assination of JFK - A tragedy? If you're asking if I believe it was a conspiracy, I just think it was a heated assassination.What do you mean by "heated"?


Moon landings - Real.
OK

9/11 - Completely caused by terrorists, though I do believe America saw SOME signs of it coming in some regard. Ft. Hood?


H1N1 - Completely overblown and non-fatal in almost all cases.
Although it would suck to be one of those not non-fatal cases hmm?


Bigfoot - Fabricated photos (though who knows for sure?)
People have been yapping about him since before cameras.


Aliens - Strong believer in the existence of extraterrestrial life in some form, though extremely doubtful of their existence on earth (but not dismissing the idea of alien influence on the beginning of civilization)
Why are you not dismissing it?


Birth Certificates - Not sure what you're looking for in this one.
OK


Miracles - Non-believer. I think that unusual circumstances stand out more than usual circumstances, so a not so impressive occurrence seems to be more than it is (much like when you get the feeling that every time you look at a digital clock, the time is either your birthday or 9:11)
I smashed all my clocks for that reason.


Ghosts - Non-believer. Even if it were possible for the chemicals and electrical impulses that make up the human consciousness to exist outside of the body, they would only last for a fraction of a second before dissipating.
Why?


Demons - Non-believer. Not much else to say on this, there's no physical evidence beyond the Bible.
Ever watch Ghost Hunters?

Hula hoops - Quite fun.
You own one?


Microwave ovens - Fantastic for heating up burritos.
Not so good at cooling them off.

El DLo
November 16th, 2009, 05:08 PM
I too am a fan of 70's rock. Do you like the song Never Been Any Reason by Head East? One of my favorites. Listening to it now in point of fact.

I'm also a fan of good spelling :thumb:

Good to see you here.

Actually I haven't heard it, but I'm going to give it a listen right now. Some of my favorite bands are Queen (all time favorite), Journey, the Who, and a ton of others.

Spitfire
November 16th, 2009, 05:11 PM
Actually I haven't heard it, but I'm going to give it a listen right now. Some of my favorite bands are Queen (all time favorite), Journey, the Who, and a ton of others.Stupid Pinball Wizard... you have to concentrate so hard to hold a 4x combo during the main riff, it's like you have to be in a trance. Those Journey songs can be annoying too, they're so easy until suddenly along comes a crazily hard solo.

El DLo
November 16th, 2009, 05:24 PM
Why shouldn't she decide that before she gets naked?

Rape comes to mind. Not every irresponsible decision is the fault of the women in question.



Where did the Bang come from?

I'm a believer in the idea that the universe is constantly expanding until it reaches a point where it can't expand any further and then it collapses into the kind of mass that the big bang originated from. The concept of infinity is hard to grasp, but in the same sense, where did God come from?


What do you mean by "heated"?

I just meant that a crazy guy wanted to kill the President. I don't think any conspiracy was attached.



Ft. Hood?

Can't say for sure whether or not this is a terrorist act. We can't assume that because the shooter was Middle Eastern that he was a terrorist, though the possibility can't be ruled out either, especially given the circumstances.



Although it would suck to be one of those not non-fatal cases hmm?

Absolutely, but people die every year from not treating the common cold. The casualties only seem dire because they're the only things brought to light.


People have been yapping about him since before cameras.

It's entirely possible that he does exist, but the inspiration for the potentially doctored photo had to arrive from the legend first.


Why are you not dismissing it?

As a believer in evolutionary thought it seems quite peculiar that the race of homo sapiens has been around for at least 200,000 years ago as indicated by fossil record, and it wasn't until the past 8000 years that civilization started to boom. That and the fact that some of the oldest monuments (Pyramids, Sphinx, ect) contain engineering feats that would be difficult to reproduce to this day, and would have been impossible at the time. I'm also keen to the idea that civilization could have boomed on Earth at some point in the past and was wiped out prior to ours developing, but again, that's just another theory to fill in the gap.




I smashed all my clocks for that reason.

You see my logic though, right?



Why?

For the chemicals and electrical impulses to exist outside of the body, they'd have to take the form of a gas in some regard (or else there would be no container to bind them). Assuming it's in a gas state, the molecules would dissipate as would any other gas.



Ever watch Ghost Hunters?

I like to think that if anyone thought there was real merit to shows like Ghost Hunters, that more acceptable authorities would research the claims in the shows. Until I'm proven wrong, I can only assume that what you see on Ghost Hunters is Hollywood effects.



You own one?

I'm sure somewhere in my garage I could locate one.

El DLo
November 16th, 2009, 05:26 PM
Stupid Pinball Wizard... you have to concentrate so hard to hold a 4x combo during the main riff, it's like you have to be in a trance. Those Journey songs can be annoying too, they're so easy until suddenly along comes a crazily hard solo.

Ah, I see I am in the presence of a fellow Guitar Hero.

I have a little experience with the game. ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imngbn8Srbw

chatmaggot
November 16th, 2009, 05:27 PM
I never thought that in a place called "Theology Forum" I would find a place where I could freely post as an Atheist and not be automatically ridiculed for my beliefs.

Just wait...you will.

Starting now:


As you can see, my beliefs are rooted in science and reasoning as I am an Atheist.

What do you mean by "As you can see,..." See what? You have shown nothing to indicate that your beliefs are rooted in science and reasoning. In fact, you have shown just the opposite. To be an atheist one must reject reasoning altogether.


I make it an integral part of life to understand the beliefs and practices of other cultures. I come here, not as a rambunctious teenager who is dead-set on converting every last person to an Atheist, but as an educated young man who understands and respects the beliefs of all other people on here.

What if it was my belief that a black person is only three-fifths of a white person? Would you respect that belief?


Generally speaking, I have heard, read, and understand many of the ideals of several religions that people hold to be absolute truth, and they just don't do it to me.

Do you believe that it is absolutely wrong to rape and murder a 12 year old girl? If so, how did you come to that conclusion?


I found that taking a literal and objective stance on life and the universe was something that appealed to my nature much more than religion could.

Could you define what you mean by "religion"?


...so feel free to ask me whatever you please about my beliefs or my upbringing, and you can expect to see me around here more often.

-Dan (El DLo)

Sweet. Welcome aboard.

Evoken
November 16th, 2009, 05:27 PM
Welcome to TOL Dan :)

allsmiles
November 16th, 2009, 05:34 PM
What do you mean by "As you can see,..." See what? You have shown nothing to indicate that your beliefs are rooted in science and reasoning. In fact, you have shown just the opposite. To be an atheist one must reject reasoning altogether.

This is as big an ipse dixit as what you're pointing a finger at, pot.

El DLo
November 16th, 2009, 05:39 PM
What do you mean by "As you can see,..." See what? You have shown nothing to indicate that your beliefs are rooted in science and reasoning. In fact, you have shown just the opposite. To be an atheist one must reject reasoning altogether.

That is the closed-minded religious response that I was mentioning. My entire life is based around reasoning. An example would be if two people were holding a baseball, but one was hiding it so I couldn't see it. I'd be more inclined to believe what I can clearly see, and that is that the first guy is very obviously showing me what's there.



What if it was my belief that a black person is only three-fifths of a white person? Would you respect that belief?

People are entitled to their own beliefs. If you were the kind of person who was interested in harming African Americans, then I would not respect that as it endangers another person. There's quite a difference between thought and action. A pedophile may be sexually attracted to children, but explicitly avoid trying to act upon those attractions. Being a pedophile doesn't make someone a child molester. I'm not going to question who they are so long as it isn't endangering another person.


Do you believe that it is absolutely wrong to rape and murder a 12 year old girl? If so, how did you come to that conclusion?

Yes, I do. Being an atheist doesn't mean that you lack basic moral principles. I lead a more moral life than almost any of the religious people that I know. My morals are based on my experiences and my perception. And those morals tell me that inflicting harm on another human intentionally is wrong.




Could you define what you mean by "religion"?

By religion I mean any sort of fundamental guidelines by which to live a life that have been laid out by a structured and specific source. Religion does not have to have a god, it just has to structure how someone lives their life. I may share morals with religion, but I came to my personal morals without the conscious desire to follow a preset guideline.




Sweet. Welcome aboard.

Thanks for the welcome =D

chatmaggot
November 16th, 2009, 05:40 PM
This is as big an ipse dixit as what you're pointing a finger at, pot.

Are ipse dixit any relation to pixie and dixie?

My point was to illustrate the absurdity in his statement. Claiming that atheists are grounded in reason suggests those that aren't atheists are grounded in foolishness.

Spitfire
November 16th, 2009, 05:42 PM
I have a little experience with the game. ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imngbn8SrbwPretty good! I would have had a lot of trouble with all those hammer ons about two minutes in too. :p Until I'd played through it a few hundred times, anyway. Which would take a while. That song goes on and on forever... :squint:

El DLo
November 16th, 2009, 05:43 PM
My point was to illustrate the absurdity in his statement. Claiming that atheists are grounded in reason suggests those that aren't atheists are grounded in foolishness.

I wasn't trying to insinuate any such thing. There are plenty of religious people who base much of their lives on reasoning. The only difference is that I base my entire life on reasoning whereas a religion person lets faith play part of the role in their beliefs.




And to Spitfire: Thanks, it is indeed one long song. =P

lucy
November 16th, 2009, 05:49 PM
A little back story on how I arrived at Atheism (as someone is bound to ask me); I started life in a Jewish family. My family was semi-conservative, not excessively, but with some regard to the practices. We kept Kosher in the house, separated our dishware to correspond with the Kosher ideal, went to temple on the high holidays, and enrolled me in Hebrew school. Throughout the entire venture I never entirely bought into the whole religion thing, and when I became old enough to understand what it was that I was reading, I just couldn't find myself a reason to believe what I was reading as truth, and as I delved into the realm of science and reasoning, I found that taking a literal and objective stance on life and the universe was something that appealed to my nature much more than religion could.



-Dan (El DLo)

Hi and welcome! I am a newcomer to TOL too, glad to have your input. Science and Christianity/Religion are not necessarily at odds. You don't have to put your intellect on the "back burner" in order to have faith a creative being. There are a lot of college professors out there with an "agenda" of their own. Don't believe everything you hear about evolution, etc. Ever read "Darwin's Black Box"? Great book that takes a biochemical look at evolution and the probability of everything happening by "chance" and the probability of biochemical systems and design.

El DLo
November 16th, 2009, 05:51 PM
Hey Lucy, welcome to you as well. I'm always glad to see a Christian who looks at the big picture.

allsmiles
November 16th, 2009, 05:52 PM
Are ipse dixit any relation to pixie and dixie?

My point was to illustrate the absurdity in his statement. Claiming that atheists are grounded in reason suggests those that aren't atheists are grounded in foolishness.

I don't see anything wrong with that assertion, the god theory self-destructs immediately: you can't say on one hand that vast complexity is impossible without a creator and then posit a creator that is vastly more complex yet has no creator. What is impossible on one hand is possible on the other hand, yet only to an immeasurably greater degree. It would be foolish to use such a theory as a foundation.

bybee
November 16th, 2009, 05:52 PM
So last night I stumbled upon this forum (to be honest I don't actually recall how as it was far later than I should have been awake). Well at first I was skeptical, thinking that it would be another message board full of closed-minded individuals that bash everything that they don't represent. To my surprise I discovered that this site is full of people of every religion and denomination of every religion. I never thought that in a place called "Theology Forum" I would find a place where I could freely post as an Atheist and not be automatically ridiculed for my beliefs.

That said, as my topic suggests, my name is Dan. I'm a tad younger than most people on this site are from what I can tell (I'm a freshman in college), but don't take that to mean that I'm ignorant to what I'm talking about. As you can see, my beliefs are rooted in science and reasoning as I am an Atheist. There are many Atheists out there who are blatantly ignorant and who take a stance of sheer superiority and closed-minded arrogance to the thoughts and beliefs of any other people. I am not one of those Atheists.

I make it an integral part of life to understand the beliefs and practices of other cultures. I come here, not as a rambunctious teenager who is dead-set on converting every last person to an Atheist, but as an educated young man who understands and respects the beliefs of all other people on here.

In a similar vein of understanding, I do not expect to have people attempt to convert me. I understand that beliefs are something that people hold dear, but I know, and everyone should know as well that religious beliefs in any form are something that a person has to find for themselves. Generally speaking, I have heard, read, and understand many of the ideals of several religions that people hold to be absolute truth, and they just don't do it to me.

A little back story on how I arrived at Atheism (as someone is bound to ask me); I started life in a Jewish family. My family was semi-conservative, not excessively, but with some regard to the practices. We kept Kosher in the house, separated our dishware to correspond with the Kosher ideal, went to temple on the high holidays, and enrolled me in Hebrew school. Throughout the entire venture I never entirely bought into the whole religion thing, and when I became old enough to understand what it was that I was reading, I just couldn't find myself a reason to believe what I was reading as truth, and as I delved into the realm of science and reasoning, I found that taking a literal and objective stance on life and the universe was something that appealed to my nature much more than religion could.

Besides that, I'm a musician with a passion for 70s rock, a fanatic of ancient history, and an avid enthusiast of technology. I'm here to find good discussion, not make enemies, so feel free to ask me whatever you please about my beliefs or my upbringing, and you can expect to see me around here more often.

-Dan (El DLo)

I hope there isn't an"iab" in the midst of the parenthetical words? The thing about atheists young fellow is this, we have a plethora of them on this web site. And compared to believers, they are rather dull. But, welcome! bybee

The Berean
November 16th, 2009, 05:54 PM
Howdy.
So, where are you at on;
Abortion
Age of the Earth
Assination of JFK
Moon landings
9/11
H1N1
Bigfoot
Aliens
Birth Certificates
Miricles
Ghosts
Demons
Hula hoops
Microwave ovens
?
You forgot homos and the Obamessiah...:banana:

Welcome to TOL, Dan. :e4e:

The Berean
November 16th, 2009, 06:00 PM
People are entitled to their own beliefs. If you were the kind of person who was interested in harming African Americans, then I would not respect that as it endangers another person. There's quite a difference between thought and action. A pedophile may be sexually attracted to children, but explicitly avoid trying to act upon those attractions. Being a pedophile doesn't make someone a child molester. I'm not going to question who they are so long as it isn't endangering another person.
:doh:



Yes, I do. Being an atheist doesn't mean that you lack basic moral principles. I lead a more moral life than almost any of the religious people that I know. My morals are based on my experiences and my perception. And those morals tell me that inflicting harm on another human intentionally is wrong.


You are quite the humble person aren't you? :think:

El DLo
November 16th, 2009, 06:01 PM
You forgot homos and the Obamessiah...

First off, people use the term "homos" far too liberally on this site. The term is homosexual. "Homos" is intentionally derogatory.

That said, people are people. America was founded as a secular country, not one of a national religion, so to force religious ideals on the people is unconstitutional. As a heterosexual male that happens to be atheist, no one's gonna say anything if I choose to be legally married in a court of law. If I am entitled to a non-religious marriage, then under what justification should homosexuals be denied the same right?

As for Obama, I am a supporter. I personally support his socialist policies, because they work in other countries. Look at countries like France and Canada who have Democracy with integrated socialism. It works fantastically there, and it can in America too. Obama is cleaning up the mess that Bush left behind. Maybe he hasn't achieved everything he promised just yet, but things take time, and I'm confident that they will work out.

chatmaggot
November 16th, 2009, 06:02 PM
Do you believe that it is absolutely wrong to rape and murder a 12 year old girl? If so, how did you come to that conclusion?


Yes, I do...My morals are based on my experiences and my perception. And those morals tell me that inflicting harm on another human intentionally is wrong.

Would you say that not inflicting harm on another human intentionally is some sort of fundamental guideline by which you live (the source being your experiences and perception)?


I came to my personal morals without the conscious desire to follow a preset guideline.

Could your experiences and perception possibly misguide you?

chatmaggot
November 16th, 2009, 06:04 PM
The term is homosexual. "Homos" is intentionally derogatory.

Says who?

Aren't you the one who said:


I come here,...as an educated young man who understands and respects the beliefs of all other people on here.

Why don't you respect the belief of the person that believes it is not derogatory to use the term "Homos"?

allsmiles
November 16th, 2009, 06:06 PM
You are quite the humble person aren't you? :think:

It is what it is. Seeing as how we can't verify his claim we might as well give him the benefit of the doubt. Some times humility can be inappropriate when a realistic appraisal of the facts will do instead.

El DLo
November 16th, 2009, 06:06 PM
To Berean,

A child molester is someone who sexually abuses children. A pedophile is someone who is sexually attracted to children. Many pedophiles manage to resist the urges and would never lay a hand on a child in an inappropriate manner. Saying that all pedophiles are child molesters is like saying that all gun-owners are murderers.

-----------------------------------
To Chatmaggot:


Would you say that not inflicting harm on another human intentionally is some sort of fundamental guideline by which you live (the source being your experiences and perception)?

Yes, but there's nothing called "The Bible as it pertains to Dan". A religion in my mind is something that hands people their opinions to them without allowing them the mind to come to conclusions about life on their own.


Could your experiences and perception possibly misguide you?

They absolutely can. That's why the world has murderers and drug addicts. But there's a thing called self-control and values. Anyone who is mentally stable can arrive at the same morals without the need of a bible to do so for them (to a certain extent).

The Berean
November 16th, 2009, 06:09 PM
It is what it is. Seeing as how we can't verify his claim we might as well give him the benefit of the doubt. Some times humility can be inappropriate when a realistic appraisal of the facts will do instead.

Since we cannot verify his claim I assume nothing. I just think it's humorous because I've heard that claim from several atheists before. "I'm an atheist I am am more moral than you silly Christians." :crackup:

El DLo
November 16th, 2009, 06:09 PM
Why don't you respect the belief of the person that believes it is not derogatory to use the term "Homos"?

Because the term "homo" to refer to a homosexual is notably derogatory in modern culture. You may think it's fine to refer to African Americans as the "N word", but political culture shows that in our society it is not.

------------------------------

Since we cannot verify his claim I assume nothing. I just think it's humorous because I've heard that claim from several atheists before. "I'm an atheist I am am more moral than you silly Christians."

That's not what I'm saying though. I said that I know I have stronger morals than some religious people that I know. I never tried to insinuate that because I am atheist that my morals are stronger or more valuable than religious people. I speak only of people that I know.

bybee
November 16th, 2009, 06:09 PM
First off, people use the term "homos" far too liberally on this site. The term is homosexual. "Homos" is intentionally derogatory.

That said, people are people. America was founded as a secular country, not one of a national religion, so to force religious ideals on the people is unconstitutional. As a heterosexual male that happens to be atheist, no one's gonna say anything if I choose to be legally married in a court of law. If I am entitled to a non-religious marriage, then under what justification should homosexuals be denied the same right?

As for Obama, I am a supporter. I personally support his socialist policies, because they work in other countries. Look at countries like France and Canada who have Democracy with integrated socialism. It works fantastically there, and it can in America too. Obama is cleaning up the mess that Bush left behind. Maybe he hasn't achieved everything he promised just yet, but things take time, and I'm confident that they will work out.

When the middle class is destroyed President Obama will still be a millionaire living in a million plus mansion in an exclusive neighborhood in Chicago. This poor boy has a Harvard education and is a world traveler of some renown. He is conversant with several religions and is held in high repute in Illinois political circles. Socialism is available to you already, ELSEWHERE! He hasn't achieved any of the golden promises of the campaign trail. You are a young fool! bybee

chatmaggot
November 16th, 2009, 06:11 PM
They absolutely can. That's why the world has murderers and drug addicts. But there's a thing called self-control and values.

Why should someone adhere to your definition of "self-control"?

Where can I find these "values" you speak of?

allsmiles
November 16th, 2009, 06:12 PM
Since we cannot verify his claim I assume nothing. I just think it's humorous because I've heard that claim from several atheists before. "I'm an atheist I am am more moral than you silly Christians." :crackup:

It's quite possible that he is. Christians are no more or less upright in their dealings than atheists are.

chatmaggot
November 16th, 2009, 06:13 PM
Because the term "homo" to refer to a homosexual is notably derogatory in modern culture. You may think it's fine to refer to African Americans as the "N word", but political culture shows that in our society it is not.

Would you say that adhering to the political culture of a society is some sort of fundamental guideline by which you live?

The Berean
November 16th, 2009, 06:13 PM
To Berean,

A child molester is someone who sexually abuses children. A pedophile is someone who is sexually attracted to children. Many pedophiles manage to resist the urges and would never lay a hand on a child in an inappropriate manner. Saying that all pedophiles are child molesters is like saying that all gun-owners are murderers.

Did I say all pedophiles are child molesters? Your analogy is flawed anyway. There are may definitions of a pedophile. In my view a person isn't a pedophile until they act on it. If I were to think or desire to murder someone does that make me a murderer? No, it does not. I am not a murderer until I actually kill someone.

El DLo
November 16th, 2009, 06:14 PM
Why should someone adhere to your definition of "self-control"?

Where can I find these "values" you speak of?

Someone should adhere to self-control because even without a religious guideline to live by, there's still a political one that citizens of any given country are expected to abide by.

As for where you can find values? Certainly not in a book.

El DLo
November 16th, 2009, 06:17 PM
Did I say all pedophiles are child molesters? Your analogy is flawed anyway. There are may definitions of a pedophile. In my view a person isn't a pedophile until they act on it. If I were to think or desire to murder someone does that make me a murderer? No, it does not. I am not a murderer until I actually kill someone.


pedophilia
One entry found.

Main Entry: pe·do·phil·ia
Pronunciation: \ˌpe-də-ˈfi-lē-ə, ˈpē-\
Function: noun
Etymology: New Latin
Date: 1906

: sexual perversion in which children are the preferred sexual object

— pe·do·phil·i·ac \-ˈfi-lē-ˌak\ or pe·do·phil·ic \-ˈfi-lik\ adjective

That's a direct quote from Webster's Online. A pretty reputable source if I must say so.

The official definition is someone who is sexually attracted to children. There's no loose interpretation here.

The Berean
November 16th, 2009, 06:18 PM
You may think it's fine to refer to African Americans as the "N word", but political culture shows that in our society it is not.

It's not? Then you must not listen to much gangsta rap music or watch shows like "The Boondocks". They through out that word out like it's nobody's business.

allsmiles
November 16th, 2009, 06:19 PM
When the middle class is destroyed President Obama will still be a millionaire living in a million plus mansion in an exclusive neighborhood in Chicago. This poor boy has a Harvard education and is a world traveler of some renown. He is conversant with several religions and is held in high repute in Illinois political circles. Socialism is available to you already, ELSEWHERE! He hasn't achieved any of the golden promises of the campaign trail. You are a young fool! bybee

Young fools have a chance to change. I once heard something about old dogs and new tricks...:think:

That Obama hasn't changed everything for the better within one year of his first term isn't a surprise and it's dishonest to portray the protracted repair of our country as a negative. Obama has never said any of the damage control he would be undertaking would be easy or come quickly. He has reiterated time and again that it's going to take a lot of hard work over a long period of time. He's very long term oriented and I think that if you look back to his campaign promises you'll find that many of his ideas span much further into the future than the duration of his presidency.

The Berean
November 16th, 2009, 06:20 PM
That's a direct quote from Webster's Online. A pretty reputable source if I must say so.

The official definition is someone who is sexually attracted to children. There's no loose interpretation here.

Oh goodie, I can play the Internet link game, too.

From the wikipedia page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedophile), the very first sentence.



The term pedophilia (or paedophilia) has a range of definitions as found in psychiatry, psychology, law enforcement, and the vernacular.


and down the page it says this.



In law enforcement, the term "pedophile" is generally used to describe those convicted of child sexual abuse or the sexual abuse of a minor, including both prepubescent children and pubescent or post-pubescent adolescents

El DLo
November 16th, 2009, 06:20 PM
It's not? Then you must not listen to much gangsta rap music or watch shows like "The Boondocks". They through out that word out like it's nobody's business.

You need to look at the context. It is politically incorrect for someone that is not an African American to refer to one by that word.

The Berean
November 16th, 2009, 06:22 PM
It's quite possible that he is.
Like I said we have no way of knowing.



Christians are no more or less upright in their dealings than atheists are.
That's probably true.

El DLo
November 16th, 2009, 06:23 PM
Oh goodie, I can play the Internet link game, too.

From the wikipedia page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedophile), the very first sentence.

Keep reading. There's one mention that pedophilia has AT TIMES been used to refer to the actual acts of molestation. But from a legal standpoint a pedophile and a child molester are two very different things.

By the way, Webster's is a slightly more reputable source than Wikipedia.

Edit: Looking at your addition to your post, the convicted people ARE pedophiles, but they are also child molesters. Not all pedophiles are child molesters.

chatmaggot
November 16th, 2009, 06:24 PM
Someone should adhere to self-control...

Say's who?

If someone doesn't adhere to self-control, then should there be consequences? What if someone's idea of self-control is different from your view of self-control?

For someone who lives by what their experiences and perceptions and who respects all beliefs you sure have a lot of "should's" and "ought to's" and "should not's".

The Berean
November 16th, 2009, 06:26 PM
You need to look at the context. It is politically incorrect for someone that is not an African American to refer to one by that word.

Politically incorrect? Does the word's meaning change depending on the color of the person's skin? Can a biracial person use it? I'm not a black person but I am darker than some African Americans. I was even called the n-word as a child by the more light-skinned members of my ethnic group. Can I use the word? I know of an African American who is white with red hair. Can he use the word?

El DLo
November 16th, 2009, 06:26 PM
The law takes care of the rest of that. Laws are in place to protect people. If someone's lack of self-control puts people at risk, then there are of course penalties.

chatmaggot
November 16th, 2009, 06:27 PM
The law takes care of the rest of that. Laws are in place to protect people. If someone's lack of self-control puts people at risk, then there are of course penalties.

Should it be illegal to be homosexual?

Edit:

Should it be illegal to kill an unborn baby?

El DLo
November 16th, 2009, 06:28 PM
Politically incorrect? Does the word's meaning change depending on the color of the person's skin? Can a biracial person use it? I'm not a black person but I am darker than some African Americans. I was even called the n-word as a child by the more light-skinned members of my ethnic group. Can I use the word? I know of an African American who is white with red hair. Can he use the word?

I get what you're saying, and I'm not disagreeing. If I could have it my way those words wouldn't mean anything because, after all, they're just words. I'm just detailing it the way society sees it in general.

--------------------------------


Should it be illegal to be homosexual?

No, because being homosexual is not harmful to anybody.

The Berean
November 16th, 2009, 06:29 PM
I get what you're saying, and I'm not disagreeing. If I could have it my way those words wouldn't mean anything because, after all, they're just words. I'm just detailing it the way society sees it in general.

The best thing would be to get rid of that ugly word. Sadly, I probably won't see it happen in my lifetime.

El DLo
November 16th, 2009, 06:31 PM
The best thing would be to get rid of that ugly word. Sadly, I probably won't see it happen in my lifetime.

Agreed.

chatmaggot
November 16th, 2009, 06:31 PM
No, because being homosexual is not harmful to anybody.

What about he homosexual acts of intercourse? Is that harmful to anybody?

El DLo
November 16th, 2009, 06:32 PM
What about he homosexual acts of intercourse? Is that harmful to anybody?

Not unless these acts of intercourse are in the form of rape, in which case it's rape and the law already takes care of that.

chatmaggot
November 16th, 2009, 06:43 PM
Not unless these acts of intercourse are in the form of rape, in which case it's rape and the law already takes care of that.

If you learned that the act of homosexual intercourse was in fact harmful, would you then agree that it should be illegal?

Notice that this question is conditional. If...in fact...

El DLo
November 16th, 2009, 06:44 PM
If you learned that the act of homosexual intercourse was in fact harmful, would you then agree that it should be illegal?

Notice that this question is conditional. If...in fact...

Depends on how it would be harmful. There's varying degrees of harmful. If it was deliberate and the intent was to harm somebody, then it would be illegal like anything else of that nature.

fool
November 16th, 2009, 07:09 PM
How things going so far?

El DLo
November 16th, 2009, 07:10 PM
Intense.... I like it!

Knight
November 16th, 2009, 07:16 PM
So last night I stumbled upon this forumI pray that you didn't injure yourself.


Besides that, I'm a musician with a passion for 70s rockI'm a huge ELO fan myself.

Welcome to TOL I hope you enjoy your stay. :up:

MaryContrary
November 16th, 2009, 10:57 PM
Depends on how it would be harmful. There's varying degrees of harmful. If it was deliberate and the intent was to harm somebody, then it would be illegal like anything else of that nature.

So you support the legalization of prostitution then?

El DLo
November 16th, 2009, 11:02 PM
So you support the legalization of prostitution then?

Honestly, yes, but only in a controlled setting. It's already legal in some states in controlled settings. The men who want to use it won't stop, so why not make sure that the prostitutes are STD safe and make it something taxable?

That's not to say that I'm in favor of prostitution, as I'm happily in a relationship, but considering it's not going anywhere as long as it's illegal, it may as well be taxable.

keypurr
November 16th, 2009, 11:21 PM
Oh not in the slightest. I welcome for anyone to change my realm of thought, I just expect it to be done in a civilized and factual manner. Far too often I see "The bible clearly says...". I know what the Bible says, and I do not view it as a book of truths, so if someone wishes to challenge my beliefs, it's going to take more than scripture. That's all that I meant by that statement.

Welcome Dan, when someone say that "The Bible clearly say...", you know that they do not know what they are talking about. The Bible is the most complex book ever written. I accept you as you are friend, do not change for me. I am a tad bit older than you though, you most likely would not like my music.
Peace

El DLo
November 16th, 2009, 11:24 PM
You'd be surprised. I have some VERY broad tastes in music.

chatmaggot
November 17th, 2009, 06:58 AM
...when someone say that "The Bible clearly say...", you know that they do not know what they are talking about.

The Bible clearly says:

Ephesians 2:8-9


For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

What part of this indicates that I don't know what I am talking about?

rab7106
November 17th, 2009, 07:26 AM
I too am a fan of 70's rock. Do you like the song Never Been Any Reason by Head East?

I had that album. :thumb:

Town Heretic
November 17th, 2009, 08:26 AM
First, congrats on the whole response to your hello. I think maybe four people wndered into mine and one was lost and two were looking for the restroom. Now then...

So last night I stumbled upon this forum ...To my surprise I discovered that this site is full of people of every religion and denomination of every religion. I never thought that in a place called "Theology Forum" I would find a place where I could freely post as an Atheist and not be automatically ridiculed for my beliefs.
A mixed bag. There are mockers of every stripe to be had and people worth talking to from every camp as well. So it isn't discourse Eutopia, but it is worthwhile and surprisingly diverse.

That said, as my topic suggests, my name is Dan.
We'll be the judge of that. :Plain:

I'm a tad younger than most people on this site are from what I can tell (I'm a freshman in college), but don't take that to mean that I'm ignorant to what I'm talking about.
Oh, we have a number of your youngsters with your rocks and rolls music lolling about the place. And since the only way you can be seen is to be heard, you even get a pass from the "my adage right or wrong" crowd.

As you can see, my beliefs are rooted in science and reasoning as I am an Atheist. There are many Atheists out there who are blatantly ignorant...
So that isn't as apparent as you first thought then. That's okay. We start with self knowledge and tend to generalize from it. The statement immediately following demonstrates an ability to see with some balance. How much of it can be applied inwardly remains to be discovered by us. You can imagine the anticipation. :chuckle:

I make it an integral part of life to understand the beliefs and practices of other cultures.
When I was your age (groans abound) and of your disposition I read religious books as a means of examining man's exploration of being and relation. Fascinating from a sociological perspective, to my mind.

I come here, not as a rambunctious teenager who is dead-set on converting every last person to an Atheist, but as an educated young man who understands and respects the beliefs of all other people on here.
Would it be fairer (and more accurate) to suggest you respect the right to hold an opinion, more particularly a well reasoned one?

In a similar vein of understanding, I do not expect to have people attempt to convert me. I understand that beliefs are something that people hold dear, but I know, and everyone should know as well that religious beliefs in any form are something that a person has to find for themselves.
Ah, a conversation to have at some point. I've held the opinion that the challenge of the nonbeliever for proof of God's existence is nonsensical and that the response in apologetics is equally flawed, since both presume criteria neither can provide to satisfy the question. The proof of God, if that statement remains standing, must and can only be the subjective experience of Him.

Generally speaking, I have heard, read, and understand many of the ideals of several religions that people hold to be absolute truth, and they just don't do it to me.
We'll have to have a conversation on the rational superiority of the Theist posit, from a practical and rational perspective then, at some point.

Besides that, I'm a musician with a passion for 70s rock
Ah, so you ARE a heathen. :chuckle: Missed the best stuff by a decade. Early Stones, Beatles, Hendrix, Dylan and on and on...

a fanatic of ancient history,
So you're saying you'll strap a dissertation to your chest and run into a library if need be?

and an avid enthusiast of technology.
Demons in a box. :D

I'm here to find good discussion, not make enemies,
There's a lot of that to be had if you can stomach the other sort.

The concept of infinity is hard to grasp, but in the same sense, where did God come from?
He necessarily wouldn't "come from" anywhere, any more than you can name the starting point of an infinite regress. As required in a God centered universe as an infinite regress would be in a Godless one...and about as demonstrable.

Welcome. :e4e:

Stripe
November 17th, 2009, 08:35 AM
A mixed bag. There are mockers of every stripe to be had and people worth talking to from every camp as well.

WHAT!? :madmad:

Oh, Hi Dan. :)

nicholsmom
November 17th, 2009, 09:15 AM
I wasn't trying to insinuate any such thing. There are plenty of religious people who base much of their lives on reasoning. The only difference is that I base my entire life on reasoning whereas a religion person lets faith play part of the role in their beliefs.


:rotfl: I am going to like you, Dan, if only for the :rotfl: :rotfl: and the :chuckle:

Shall I re-post for you the number of times in this thread alone that you have stated "I believe..." or "I'm a believer that..." for things that you have given neither evidence nor reasoning? Everyone has faith - it's only a matter of where and with whom it lies.

Still. Thanks for the :chuckle: :chuckle: and welcome to TOL where you will have to do better than that, I'm afraid.

El DLo
November 17th, 2009, 09:58 AM
Thanks for the err... analysis town heretic. I'm certainly glad to be aboard.


He necessarily wouldn't "come from" anywhere, any more than you can name the starting point of an infinite regress. As required in a God centered universe as an infinite regress would be in a Godless one...and about as demonstrable.

Just to address this statement, I'm not one of those people who says "The universe was always there", because I know one can't prove that. However, in a similar vein of thought, I admit that the details on the origins of the universe are cloudy, but with the expectation that the religious people on here can acknowledge the same about God. Ergo: You can't expect to use a lack of starting point for the Universe as a rationalization to find flaw in my beliefs when your belief is equally shrouded in uncertainty.

------------------------

Shall I re-post for you the number of times in this thread alone that you have stated "I believe..." or "I'm a believer that..." for things that you have given neither evidence nor reasoning? Everyone has faith - it's only a matter of where and with whom it lies.

Still. Thanks for the and welcome to TOL where you will have to do better than that, I'm afraid.

Many of the posts I have made here were slightly rushed due to a flood of incoming posts. Generally speaking, if I say "I believe" regarding something, I will state it from a moral perspective. If it's something beyond that, then I can supply the rationalization for my belief. I was just hard-pressed for time in this thread.

Calypso
November 17th, 2009, 06:16 PM
.
"Welcome!"


:wave:

Town Heretic
November 17th, 2009, 06:45 PM
Thanks for the err... analysis town heretic. I'm certainly glad to be aboard.
Good to have you.

Just to address this statement, I'm not one of those people who says "The universe was always there", because I know one can't prove that.
You might as well say it, since the alternative is creation. :idunno:

However, in a similar vein of thought, I admit that the details on the origins of the universe are cloudy, but with the expectation that the religious people on here can acknowledge the same about God.
You did note that I didn't attempt to put either objectively ahead?Not sure about applying cloudy to God in terms of origin. God wouldn't have an origin even in the sense of the infinite regress.

Ergo: You can't expect to use a lack of starting point for the Universe as a rationalization to find flaw in my beliefs when your belief is equally shrouded in uncertainty.
Wouldn't dream of it. I think either statement of faith is demonstrably nothing more or less than that. :e4e: