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JeremyTheSkeptic
November 9th, 2009, 12:17 PM
Hello,

I was a Christian for 15+ years. I have recently abandoned it, as I no longer believe it's a rational position or one supported by the evidence. But since it played such a big part in my life I still like talking about it, hence why I'm here. I quite enjoy talking with Christians, which is good since I'm friends with many and married to one.

But may I say, the sheer number of forums here is a bit daunting. :dizzy: I'm off to figure out which one I belong in.

Absurdist
November 9th, 2009, 12:26 PM
Welcome, Jeremy, from another atheist and newbie to TOL. I know, the list of discussions can be daunting, but plenty of interesting discussion to be had.

chickenman
November 9th, 2009, 12:27 PM
Welcome to TOL, Jeremy! :wave2:

Prepare to be re-converted! :D

heir
November 9th, 2009, 12:34 PM
Hi Jeremy :wave2:

godrulz
November 9th, 2009, 12:54 PM
Was there a particular trigger or influence that led you from rational theism to irrational atheism?:cry::dunce:

Mr. Beeks
November 9th, 2009, 12:58 PM
Welcome, Jeremy. What kind of church did you belong to? Maybe your problem was more with what your church was or wasn't teaching you.

fool
November 9th, 2009, 12:58 PM
Welcome

JeremyTheSkeptic
November 9th, 2009, 01:08 PM
Was there a particular trigger or influence that led you from rational theism to irrational atheism?:cry::dunce:

Nice. :)

No great event or life tragedy, though oddly that tends to be what people ask first ("What happened?!"). I just started questioning things I'd never honestly questioned before. I saw the absurdity of believing in a God that sends people to hell for failing to believe in what can't be proven.


What kind of church did you belong to? Maybe your problem was more with what your church was or wasn't teaching you.

Well I liked my old church and have no animosity toward them. It was commonly known as "Brethren", though that name wasn't on the sign. It was pretty much typically protestant baptist-like teachings. Inerrant word of God, saved by faith not works, etc.

But I should point out I don't disagree with anything unique to my church. I reject to entire Christian hypothesis. I see no evidence for any God, and even if I did, I see no reason to accept the Judeo-Christian God.

Knight
November 9th, 2009, 01:22 PM
Welcome to.... "da big show".

godrulz
November 9th, 2009, 02:51 PM
I just started questioning things I'd never honestly questioned before. I saw the absurdity of believing in a God that sends people to hell for failing to believe in what can't be proven.

I reject to entire Christian hypothesis. I see no evidence for any God, and even if I did, I see no reason to accept the Judeo-Christian God.

Romans 1 shows that you are without excuse. It is good to know what we believe and why. Honest doubts are not a problem and God will give more evidence. Skeptical, atheistic doubts in the face of evidence are another matter and can lead to judicial hardening. It is a wrong assumption to think that a loving, holy God sends people to hell without basis. You wrongly assume that things can't be proved or that there is little evidence.

Revelation>reason. God has communicated Himself and truth. Following false gods or philosophies would not be commendable.

I am not sure why you believed without substance all those years? Perhaps you never were converted, just religious?

Karl der Grosse
November 9th, 2009, 03:24 PM
Welcome Jeremy. I hope you enjoy your time here, and I pray the Lord work in your heart and bring you back into the fold. Until then, name's Dave and pleased to meet you!

Rusha
November 9th, 2009, 03:33 PM
Welcome Jeremy! :)

Thunder's Muse
November 9th, 2009, 06:20 PM
Welcome to TOL:)

Town Heretic
November 9th, 2009, 06:29 PM
Hello,
:wave2:

I was a Christian for 15+ years.
Then you weren't told...one more and you would have gotten a watch.

I have recently abandoned it, as I no longer believe it's a rational position
Then you're either 16, ill considered, or on the verge of another disappointment.

or one supported by the evidence.
What objective evidence, what criteria would you suggest could be met to prove the existence of God?

But since it played such a big part in my life I still like talking about it, hence why I'm here. I quite enjoy talking with Christians, which is good since I'm friends with many and married to one.
Then you're in luck. There are one or two here as well.

But may I say, the sheer number of forums here is a bit daunting.
It helps if you take them one at a time. :Plain:

:dizzy: I'm off to figure out which one I belong in.
Do you mean threads? :think: Welcome, I think...

Mr. Beeks
November 9th, 2009, 06:44 PM
:wave2:

Then you weren't told...one more and you would have gotten a watch.

Then you're either 16, ill considered, or on the verge of another disappointment.

What objective evidence, what criteria would you suggest could be met to prove the existence of God?

Then you're in luck. There are one or two here as well.

It helps if you take them one at a time. :Plain:

Do you mean threads? :think: Welcome, I think...I thought that we established (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61846)that Reese's Peanut Butter Cups were all the proof we need.

Town Heretic
November 9th, 2009, 06:57 PM
I thought that we established (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61846)that Reese's Peanut Butter Cups were all the proof we need.
:think: Only of an absolute good, not of its origin.

Mr. Beeks
November 9th, 2009, 08:28 PM
:think: Only of an absolute good, not of its origin.You don't think that collision at that building corner was 'orchestrated'?

:dunce:

Stripe
November 9th, 2009, 08:56 PM
Hi. Welcome to TOL. You're lucky. We're all past the newbie hazing phase.

:wave:

Cracked
November 9th, 2009, 11:12 PM
C'mon OSAS crowd, say it with me!

"There's no such thing as a former Christian."

So, dude, you're like a unicorn. Welcome to our magical dream glade, oh impossible contradiction!
:wave2:

godrulz
November 10th, 2009, 12:38 AM
C'mon OSAS crowd, say it with me!

"There's no such thing as a former Christian."

So, dude, you're like a unicorn. Welcome to our magical dream glade, oh impossible contradiction!
:wave2:

In reality, he may have been a counterfeit/fraud OR he may have been a genuine believer who has fallen away/apostasized- c'mon non-OSAS crowd, say it with me! 'There are false believers, former believers, true believers, and unbelievers'.

BabyChristian
November 10th, 2009, 01:26 AM
WELCOME

The Berean
November 10th, 2009, 02:01 AM
In reality, he may have been a counterfeit/fraud OR he may have been a genuine believer who has fallen away/apostasized- c'mon non-OSAS crowd, say it with me! 'There are false believers, former believers, true believers, and unbelievers'.

Then, there's Squeaky and Letsargue. :think:

Welcome to TOL Jeremy. :e4e:

godrulz
November 10th, 2009, 02:07 AM
Then, there's Squeaky and Letsargue. :think:

Welcome to TOL Jeremy. :e4e:

We will add an :alien: category for 'others' who misfit.

Delmar
November 10th, 2009, 02:17 AM
Hello,

I was a Christian for 15+ years. I have recently abandoned it, as I no longer believe it's a rational position or one supported by the evidence. But since it played such a big part in my life I still like talking about it, hence why I'm here. I quite enjoy talking with Christians, which is good since I'm friends with many and married to one.

But may I say, the sheer number of forums here is a bit daunting. :dizzy: I'm off to figure out which one I belong in.
I'm kind of curious what, exactly, you did believe for that 15 year period. Did you believe that your sins were worthy of death? Did you believe that Jesus sacrifice was the only thing that could have paid the price for those sins? Did you believe that Jesus rose from the dead?

Ktoyou
November 10th, 2009, 02:20 AM
I doubt he had absolute faith?

You are up late, can't sleep?

godrulz
November 10th, 2009, 02:25 AM
I'm kind of curious what, exactly, you did believe for that 15 year period. Did you believe that your sins were worthy of death? Did you believe that Jesus sacrifice was the only thing that could have paid the price for those sins? Did you believe that Jesus rose from the dead?


He may have believed this, but I also had a mental assent to these things without heart transformation. He also might have had transformation by embracing these truths, but later renouncing and abandoning them with a conscious decision to reject light, truth, God, Christ (new reality is the relationship is severed and outside of grace; OSAS disagrees, but they are wrong).

Town Heretic
November 10th, 2009, 02:46 AM
Hi. Welcome to TOL. You're lucky. We're all past the newbie hazing phase.

:wave:

Didn't get that memo...:Poly:

Still don't. :eek:

Ask Mr. Religion
November 10th, 2009, 03:22 AM
I was a Christian for 15+ years.
Er, no. You just thought you were. :squint:

Welcome to TOL.

AMR

Cracked
November 10th, 2009, 03:23 AM
Er, no. You just thought you were. :squint:

Welcome to TOL.

AMR

See, I knew it was coming.

I'm psycho... er... psychic!

godrulz
November 10th, 2009, 03:28 AM
Er, no. You just thought you were. :squint:

Welcome to TOL.

AMR

How do you know? You are being circular based on a preconceived idea (if POTS is true, he could not be a Christian). What if he is temporarily lapsed and returns to a Calvinistic faith before death?

JeremyTheSkeptic
November 10th, 2009, 05:36 AM
I'm kind of curious what, exactly, you did believe for that 15 year period. Did you believe that your sins were worthy of death? Did you believe that Jesus sacrifice was the only thing that could have paid the price for those sins? Did you believe that Jesus rose from the dead?

Yes, yes, and yes.

I will say I find the abundance of the "no true Scotsman" argument here both amusing and entirely expected. It's been my observation that believers consider apostates to be more threatening or dangerous than any regular unbeliever, so in defense they'll immediately conclude the person was never truly one of their own. I guess that invention is more palatable than the notion that someone could actually leave their little fold.

Interestingly, I also see this in atheists, when an avowed atheist has a religious conversion. It's probably human nature to be defensive of the clan.

Stripe
November 10th, 2009, 08:17 AM
:think:

Maybe he still is saved, but doesn't know it. :)

godrulz
November 10th, 2009, 12:40 PM
Yes, yes, and yes.

I will say I find the abundance of the "no true Scotsman" argument here both amusing and entirely expected. It's been my observation that believers consider apostates to be more threatening or dangerous than any regular unbeliever, so in defense they'll immediately conclude the person was never truly one of their own. I guess that invention is more palatable than the notion that someone could actually leave their little fold.

Interestingly, I also see this in atheists, when an avowed atheist has a religious conversion. It's probably human nature to be defensive of the clan.

Good point. If an atheist becomes a Christian, we do not conclude that they were never an atheist. If a Christian becomes an atheist, why do we conclude they were never a Christian. Biblically and logically, OSAS is indefensible (and there is more than one possibility as to the former state of an ex-believer...may or may not have had the real thing).

Calypso
November 10th, 2009, 07:58 PM
.
"Welcome!"


:wave:

elohiym
November 10th, 2009, 09:42 PM
I saw the absurdity of believing in a God that sends people to hell for failing to believe in what can't be proven.

Yes that is absurd. But that's not what Christianity teaches. So you left "Christianity" because you never had faith in an absurdity that has nothing to do with true Christianity.



I reject to entire Christian hypothesis.

If what you said above is any indication, you don't have a clue what the "entire Christian hypothesis" is.

Enjoy your time here. :e4e:

zoo22
November 10th, 2009, 09:55 PM
Hi Jeremy.

Granite
November 11th, 2009, 07:37 AM
Hi Jeremy, welcome. I'm an exer myself. Hope you enjoy your stay here.

Stripe
November 11th, 2009, 09:26 AM
Perhaps Granite is saved and doesn't know it. :idunno:

godrulz
November 11th, 2009, 12:32 PM
Perhaps Granite is saved and doesn't know it. :idunno:


I thought the song was 'If you're happy and you know it clap your hands....'.

Yorzhik
November 11th, 2009, 04:42 PM
I'm predicting the closed view will strike again.

JeremyTheSkeptic
November 12th, 2009, 07:30 AM
Yes that is absurd. But that's not what Christianity teaches. So you left "Christianity" because you never had faith in an absurdity that has nothing to do with true Christianity.

It's exactly what Christianity teaches. Believe that there is one God, that Jesus Christ is his son, that he died for your sins and rose from the grave. Believe it or burn in hell. And believe it without a shred of concrete evidence.

I think I have a very good idea of what the Christian hypothesis is.

Stripe
November 12th, 2009, 07:37 AM
It's exactly what Christianity teaches.

:nono:


Believe that there is one God, that Jesus Christ is his son, that he died for your sins and rose from the grave. Believe it or burn in hell. And believe it without a shred of concrete evidence.

James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!

Belief has very little to do with salvation. Of course it is a pre-requisite, but it is in no way a qualification.

Perhaps you'd like to try again? :idunno:


I think I have a very good idea of what the Christian hypothesis is.

I believe you have no idea what you're talking about.

JeremyTheSkeptic
November 12th, 2009, 07:55 AM
You just acknowledged that belief is a prerequisite. I couldn't care less what whatever version of Christianity you follow (and there are thousands) says must come after the belief: belief in the unproven is required. Failure to believe results in judgment. I got it exactly right the first time.

Stripe
November 12th, 2009, 08:23 AM
You just acknowledged that belief is a prerequisite. I couldn't care less what whatever version of Christianity you follow (and there are thousands) says must come after the belief: belief in the unproven is required. Failure to believe results in judgment. I got it exactly right the first time.

Yes, belief is a pre-requisite. I'd find it difficult to confess Christ as Lord if I did not believe in Him. :)

godrulz
November 12th, 2009, 02:07 PM
Athiests confuse the Kierkegaardian blind leap of 'faith' (which is actually presumption) and biblical faith in the historical person and work of Jesus Christ who claimed to be and proved that He is God.

It is stupid to believe something with no evidence. Just because atheists don't like the evidence does not mean it does not exist or is not worthy of trusting.

We want to see in order to believe. Jesus reversed it and said to believe and you will see. We can believe based on the light of God, but fuller understanding only comes through the Spirit/Word to those who believe (otherwise, more light rejected by an unbeliever just leads to more hardening/condemnation).

dan b
December 8th, 2009, 01:41 PM
Hello friends,
Now that we have passed 6000 years developing humankind the last millinnium is for rest. Today we still use faith and preaching the word of God as our entrance to salvation, but we now also can have proofs. The Miracles of the Holy Spirit are brought about by reason and understanding. And there are many miracles made light for us today! dan b

freelight
December 10th, 2009, 11:50 PM
You just acknowledged that belief is a prerequisite. I couldn't care less what whatever version of Christianity you follow (and there are thousands) says must come after the belief: belief in the unproven is required. Failure to believe results in judgment. I got it exactly right the first time.


Hi Jeremy,

Life's a journey. Each of us are 'where' we are at...because of Life carrying us to this very 'point' along the Path, amid so many factors that coordinated such movements,.....so here we are :) This is reality, as we are knowing it.

We each have a wonderful history that helped to guide us to where we are...and the adventure is ever continuing. Do you have an interest in any other religious traditions, philosophy, metaphysics or spirituality?



Namaste,



pj