Why no one needs to be predestinated

R

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
No one needs to be predestinated because God has already provided salvation for EVERYONE.

"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God SHOULD TASTE DEATH FOR EVERYONE" Hebrews 2:9.

Salvation has been provided for everyone, this means that salvation is by grace through faith, Ephesians 2:8. Many don't have faith in the saving work of Jesus and have to come up with another way to be saved, like works, obedience or predestination. One should never let their religion (Calvinism) dictate what they believe, but that is exactly what they do. The Bible speaks loud and clear when it comes to the salvation of fallen man.

"And all things are of God, who has reconciled US to himself by Jesus Christ and has given unto us the ministry of reconciliation" which is the preaching of the Gospel, 2 Corinthians 5:18.

If you have ALREADY been reconciled to God by Jesus Christ then you don't need to be predestinated. All that you have to do is believe in Jesus, John 3:16. Not only did Jesus reconcile us to God, he reconciled the whole world to God.

"To wit, that God was in Christ, RECONCILING THE WORLD UNTO HIMSELF, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and has committed unto us unto us the ministry of reconciliation" which is the preaching of the Gospel, 2 Corinthians 5:19.

Worried about your sins? They will not be imputed unto you IF YOU ACCEPT GOD'S OFFER OF RECONCILLIATION. God is extending an offer of reconciliation to the whole world by his Son Jesus Christ. All that one has to do to be saved is to accept the free offer of reconciliation that has been provided by his Son Jesus Christ.

No need for Calvinism, no need for Catholicism, no need for any religion. The work of salvation has ALREADY been done. "Today is the day of salvation" Today, you can be made complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10.
 
T

Truster

New member
Every child of Adam is predetermined (correct translation) some to eternal life and the rest to eternal damnation.
 
S

Squeaky

BANNED
Banned
Do you really know Jesus done it all for you? Keeping His commandments is our works.

[1Jo 2:4
4 He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

[Jhn 14:15, 21
15 "If you love Me, keep My commandments. ...
21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him."
[Jhn 15:10
10 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.
 
nikolai_42

nikolai_42

Well-known member
Robert,

I have a few observations that I'm curious about...

Robert Pate said:
No one needs to be predestinated because God has already provided salvation for EVERYONE.
Click to expand...

Here you make salvation clearly impersonal...more on that shortly.

Robert Pate said:
"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God SHOULD TASTE DEATH FOR EVERYONE" Hebrews 2:9.

Salvation has been provided for everyone, this means that salvation is by grace through faith, Ephesians 2:8. Many don't have faith in the saving work of Jesus and have to come up with another way to be saved, like works, obedience or predestination. One should never let their religion (Calvinism) dictate what they believe, but that is exactly what they do. The Bible speaks loud and clear when it comes to the salvation of fallen man.
Click to expand...

{Underlining in quote is mine}

Here you have made a comment on two aspects of salvation - the extent and the means. You have tried to make the connection between the two. Your statement is that because the extent of salvation's provision is universal, the means must be salvation by grace through faith. The Calvinist says that the atonement was limited and specific - you say it was general and universal. I personally (not being a thorough-going Calvinist) have no problem with the idea that salvation is a free gift or that it has been offered to every man who walks the earth. But when I (and, I think, most Calvinists) take issue with your statements, at least some of that issue has to do with the fact that you impose ideas on it that just aren't there. Predestination, for example, is not some other way to be saved. It is a means by which salvation is achieved. But you try to pit it against faith when the Calvinist agrees that all that believe will be saved. You are making one exclusive of the other because you don't treat one (predestination) the same way the Calvinist does. In so doing, you misrepresent what the Calvinist believes about salvation and create an argument which doesn't exist (that you proceed to tear down). No Calvinist that I know of goes around preaching "You must be predestinated". They believe in predestination but that is part of the process. The means of salvation is faithful preaching of the Word that brings about faith in Christ. They will say "Today, if you hear His voice, do not harden your heart!". They will preach what is in scripture because they believe that is the way men come to faith in Christ - not through their own supposedly free choice. If you believe it's just a choice, then you do anything just to get someone to make a choice. But if you believe it's the Word that brings that to a man, you will rest on the Word and reject other bases.

So above, you are speaking about extent and confusing it with means and mechanics of salvation and so mischaracterizing the Calvinist view.

Robert Pate said:
"And all things are of God, who has reconciled US to himself by Jesus Christ and has given unto us the ministry of reconciliation" which is the preaching of the Gospel, 2 Corinthians 5:18.

If you have ALREADY been reconciled to God by Jesus Christ then you don't need to be predestinated. All that you have to do is believe in Jesus, John 3:16. Not only did Jesus reconcile us to God, he reconciled the whole world to God.
Click to expand...

Let me just point out that reconciliation and predestination carry different tenses. Reconciliation is spoken of as an ongoing ministry. Predestination - by its very name - implies something that has already been accomplished. One need not deny the other, yet that's what you are saying - that if you believe in reconciliation you can't believe in predestination (!)

Robert Pate said:
"To wit, that God was in Christ, RECONCILING THE WORLD UNTO HIMSELF, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and has committed unto us unto us the ministry of reconciliation" which is the preaching of the Gospel, 2 Corinthians 5:19.

Worried about your sins? They will not be imputed unto you IF YOU ACCEPT GOD'S OFFER OF RECONCILLIATION. God is extending an offer of reconciliation to the whole world by his Son Jesus Christ. All that one has to do to be saved is to accept the free offer of reconciliation that has been provided by his Son Jesus Christ.
Click to expand...

And here's the point about it being personal (or not). That paragraph reads like an advertisement. One could almost hear the spokesman on the television offering reconciliation as the product (or service). Yet the whole point of reconciliation is that it IS personal. It has to be. So all the hand waving about salvation being a free gift (which it is), it being universal (for everyone) and it just sitting there waiting to be taken serves to diminish the personal aspect of salvation. By making it into something you just go and choose to take, you minimize the fact that a man who comes to Christ must realize what he is in light of the Savior before he even comes to the point where he can receive Christ. And if that man has any inclination that he can do anything, he isn't hearing the truth of the Word and can't be saved. That's why there are so many false conversions - because salvation has become such a simple, superficial thing (in terms of preaching it) that it's just as easy to get as though you went down to the corner store to pick up a jug of milk. Reconciliation involves working through issues (all of them on our side), not accepting an offer. And the only one who can work through those issues for us is the Holy Spirit.

Robert Pate said:
No need for Calvinism, no need for Catholicism, no need for any religion. The work of salvation has ALREADY been done. "Today is the day of salvation" Today, you can be made complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10.
Click to expand...
 
T

Truster

New member
Robert Pate said:
No scripture says that.

The reason that you want to believe that is because you don't have faith in Christ.
Click to expand...

Noah and his family unto eternal life and the rest of the population to destruction. Israel to receive the pre-evangelism and the revelations while the rest of the world were left in darkness.

"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of Elohim according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;" Romans 9:11

It doesn't seem as if you have ever read and understood the scriptures, Roberto.
 
R

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
nikolai_42 said:
Robert,

I have a few observations that I'm curious about...



Here you make salvation clearly impersonal...more on that shortly.



{Underlining in quote is mine}

Here you have made a comment on two aspects of salvation - the extent and the means. You have tried to make the connection between the two. Your statement is that because the extent of salvation's provision is universal, the means must be salvation by grace through faith. The Calvinist says that the atonement was limited and specific - you say it was general and universal. I personally (not being a thorough-going Calvinist) have no problem with the idea that salvation is a free gift or that it has been offered to every man who walks the earth. But when I (and, I think, most Calvinists) take issue with your statements, at least some of that issue has to do with the fact that you impose ideas on it that just aren't there. Predestination, for example, is not some other way to be saved. It is a means by which salvation is achieved. But you try to pit it against faith when the Calvinist agrees that all that believe will be saved. You are making one exclusive of the other because you don't treat one (predestination) the same way the Calvinist does. In so doing, you misrepresent what the Calvinist believes about salvation and create an argument which doesn't exist (that you proceed to tear down). No Calvinist that I know of goes around preaching "You must be predestinated". They believe in predestination but that is part of the process. The means of salvation is faithful preaching of the Word that brings about faith in Christ. They will say "Today, if you hear His voice, do not harden your heart!". They will preach what is in scripture because they believe that is the way men come to faith in Christ - not through their own supposedly free choice. If you believe it's just a choice, then you do anything just to get someone to make a choice. But if you believe it's the Word that brings that to a man, you will rest on the Word and reject other bases.

So above, you are speaking about extent and confusing it with means and mechanics of salvation and so mischaracterizing the Calvinist view.



Let me just point out that reconciliation and predestination carry different tenses. Reconciliation is spoken of as an ongoing ministry. Predestination - by its very name - implies something that has already been accomplished. One need not deny the other, yet that's what you are saying - that if you believe in reconciliation you can't believe in predestination (!)



And here's the point about it being personal (or not). That paragraph reads like an advertisement. One could almost hear the spokesman on the television offering reconciliation as the product (or service). Yet the whole point of reconciliation is that it IS personal. It has to be. So all the hand waving about salvation being a free gift (which it is), it being universal (for everyone) and it just sitting there waiting to be taken serves to diminish the personal aspect of salvation. By making it into something you just go and choose to take, you minimize the fact that a man who comes to Christ must realize what he is in light of the Savior before he even comes to the point where he can receive Christ. And if that man has any inclination that he can do anything, he isn't hearing the truth of the Word and can't be saved. That's why there are so many false conversions - because salvation has become such a simple, superficial thing (in terms of preaching it) that it's just as easy to get as though you went down to the corner store to pick up a jug of milk. Reconciliation involves working through issues (all of them on our side), not accepting an offer. And the only one who can work through those issues for us is the Holy Spirit.
Click to expand...

All of that and 0 scriptures. You really need to examine yourself to see if you are in the faith.
 
R

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Truster said:
Noah and his family unto eternal life and the rest of the population to destruction. Israel to receive the pre-evangelism and the revelations while the rest of the world were left in darkness.

"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of Elohim according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;" Romans 9:11

It doesn't seem as if you have ever read and understood the scriptures, Roberto.
Click to expand...


You have misinterpreted Romans 9:11.

God's purpose was that Jesus was to come into the world through the line of the Patriarch's.
 
R

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Squeaky said:
Do you really know Jesus done it all for you? Keeping His commandments is our works.

[1Jo 2:4
4 He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

[Jhn 14:15, 21
15 "If you love Me, keep My commandments. ...
21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him."
[Jhn 15:10
10 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.
Click to expand...

Trying to keep the commandments will put you under the curse, Galatians 3:10.
 
ttruscott

ttruscott

Well-known member
Robert Pate said:
If you have ALREADY been reconciled to God by Jesus Christ then you don't need to be predestinated.
Click to expand...
Still backwards I see.

Predestination came first before any of HIS elect sinned. Then came the fulfillment of that predestination called reconciliation at His death for those of HIS elect who later did choose to sin.
Ephesians 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. Choosing us to be holy was BEFORE the creation of the world refers to our election, predestined to be like HIS Son though not all are:
Romans 8:29-30 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, ...

YET you believe this is BEFORE WE ARE CREATED since you believe WE ARE CREATED ON EARTH so you are wrong. Reconciliation does not come before predestination but after...even though it was established from the time of His decison to be the slain Lamb, it was not fulfilled until His death and then reconciliation radiated out, forward and backward in time.

Election caused our predestination which led up to our true reconciliation in HIS sight.
 
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T

Truster

New member
Robert Pate said:
You have misinterpreted Romans 9:11.

God's purpose was that Jesus was to come into the world through the line of the Patriarch's.
Click to expand...

You seem to think that the Almighty has a purpose, but doesn't bring it to pass by His predetermination. That would mean He has a purpose, but is not allowed to exercise His Might to ensure it comes to pass.
 
R

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
ttruscott said:
Still backwards I see.

Predestination came first before any of HIS elect sinned. Then came the fulfillment of that predestination called reconciliation at His death for those of HIS elect who later did choose to sin.
Ephesians 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. Choosing us to be holy was BEFORE the creation of the world refers to our election, predestined to be like HIS Son though not all are:
Romans 8:29-30 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, ...

YET you believe this is BEFORE WE ARE CREATED since you believe WE ARE CREATED ON EARTH so you are wrong. Reconciliation does not come before predestination but after...even though it was established from the time of His decison to be the slain Lamb, it was not fulfilled until His death and then reconciliation radiated out, forward and backward in time.

Election caused our predestination which led up to our true reconciliation in HIS sight.
Click to expand...


You have misinterpreted Ephesians 1:4. God chose all of humanity in his Son Jesus Christ. Not individuals. It plainly says that we have been chosen "In him". How else can we be holy and without blame before him in love. The Bible plainly teaches that "God is no respecter of persons" Acts 10:34.

There is nothing about anyone being predestinated in Romans 8:29, 30. You are desperate to believe the Calvinist lie.

The doctrine of predestination is anti-Gospel and anti-Christ.
 
R

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Truster said:
You seem to think that the Almighty has a purpose, but doesn't bring it to pass by His predetermination. That would mean He has a purpose, but is not allowed to exercise His Might to ensure it comes to pass.
Click to expand...

The only ones that are going to be saved in the judgment are those that are "In Christ". God's purpose has already been accomplished and fulfilled by Jesus Christ. As far as God is concerned sin, death and the devil have been abolished by his Son Jesus Christ. We now stand complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10. You are not there.
 
lifeisgood

lifeisgood

New member
It is not a particular person that has been predestined, but the plan of God.

The predestined eternal plan of God the Father for all believers is to be conformed to the image of His Son... (Romans 8:29-30)
 
T

Truster

New member
lifeisgood said:
It is not a particular person that has been predestined, but the plan of God.

The predestined eternal plan of God the Father for all believers is to be conformed to the image of His Son... (Romans 8:29-30)
Click to expand...

And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of Yah Veh: and as many as were ordained to eternal life trusted. Acts 13:48
 
lifeisgood

lifeisgood

New member
Truster said:
And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of Yah Veh: and as many as were ordained to eternal life trusted. Acts 13:48
Click to expand...

God has appointed [predestined] and provided [because He has already predestined] Eternal Life for all who will believe [Jn. 3:15–20; Rom. 1:16; 10:9–10; 1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9; Rev. 22:17].
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
pate

[h=2]Why no one needs to be predestinated[/h]
Click to expand...

Rationalism against God

Rom 8:29-30

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.


30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Eph 1:5

5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
 
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