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beloved57
July 5th, 2009, 10:38 AM
Acts 13:23

Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

This was not peter here, but paul, the apostle unto the gentiles, who makes this very important statement, and sheds much light upon for whom Jesus Christ came to save as according to promise..

Another important scripture that lends to the truth of this is Lk 1:68-69


68Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, [see Matt 1: 21]

69And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; 70As he spake [or promised] by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

This promise of redemption of His people, as the Lord God of Israel, hath been revealed and promised since the world began..

This takes us back to the first proclamation of the promised salvation or redemption to Gen 3:15

15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel

This seed of the women would be Israel [Christ and His People]..and the which, salvations first promise is to and for this seed Israel, the seed of the women..

This is some what typed out or signified in Rev 12:1-2

1And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

2And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. [the birth of Jesus Christ]

This women had also a seed as we see later in Rev 12:17

17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

[ so Christ and his Members are the seed of the women Gal 3:16,29]

So salvation and redemption from the conception of the world, had only a particular seed in view, which later became known as Israel..

But now, its important to understand, that the Israel paul is referring to in Acts 13:23..is not Israel according to the flesh..but Israel according to Promise..

Lets show here how paul discerned another Israel other than national Israel Rom 9:6

Not as though the word [or promise] of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel [Acts 13:23],] which are of Israel [nationally]:

You see, the promises of redemption and salvation as stated in Lk 1:68-70, to the people of God, the God of Israel, the promise were not to national israel..but a spiritual remnant within that nation, and as we will find out, a spiritual remnant among the nations of the world, which constituted Israel,[Rom 11] the one paul preached in Acts 13:23

Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

Now paul had the Israel of God [Rom 9:6] in view when he made this statement in the above..

Now get this next point, for its tricky, but nevertheless its extremely important because of the symmetry and analogy of scripture.

The difference between what paul preached here in Acts 13 :23 and what peter taught here in Acts 5:31

Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

The difference is this..for peter was correct in that Jesus was exalted to the right hand of God to give repentance to a certain chosen people Israel..but what peter did not know but what paul did know..is this:

That Israel was no longer viewed as a mere physical ethnic nation, but that Israel was comprised of Gentiles as well, who became Israel..

Notice..Eph 2:12,19

12That at that time ye [gentiles] were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

They [Gentiles] are now no more strangers and aliens, but fellowcitizens [of Israel Gods chosen people] and so now they also have the same right to be called Israel,

in fact, even more of a right than the non elect jews of that nation..because the Israel of God was never non elect jews, but Elect Jews like Jacob over Esau or Isaac over ishmael..Children of promise..

So salvation and redemption has always been limited unto Israel as a people, but the mystery that was not clearly unveiled since the world began [Gen 3:15]

Eph 3:3-6


3How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;


6That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: [Lk 1: 68-70]

In that Israel was made up of Gentiles also.. Yes thats the unveiling in more detail by Paul of this mystery..[Israel of God was never a physical nation but a Spiritual people or Nation Rom 2,1Pet 2 ]

but nevertheless, true to promise, salvation and redemption is and has always been limited to a chosen people [Israel]..not limited to a certain geographical location as national Israel in the middle east or a certain ethical people [respect of persons], but the scope of this Israel of God is world wide..but nevertheless its only to the world of Gods Israel, all others, are blinded..

You know how paul says in Rom 9: 6

For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:


So likewise, they are not all the world [for whom Christ died] which are of the world [the inhabited earth]

Just like there was an Israel within Israel that God had a respect and favor for, likewise there is a world within the world that God has a special regard for, and that world is the Israel of God, the Spiritual seed of Abraham..

Ps82
July 5th, 2009, 11:03 AM
Nicely written. I did not notice anything at first reading with which I would disagree.
God bless.

Yahushua
July 5th, 2009, 11:20 AM
I really wish you would capitalize your bible quotes so we can use the bible quote tool in the website. what about this verse: Rom. 11:23And if they(Israel) do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. It seems he is talking about people in Israel who were once branches in the tree of salvation who were blessed with the promises, then cut off from the tree, and then can be put back in again. Also in verse Rom. 11:7 it says:What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened. It sounds like this Israel is the physical nation. and what about the other mystery paul talked about? he says: Rom. 11:25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27And this is[f] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."[g]

This deliverer is the seed of the woman in Rev. 12 not Jesus. This will be the final mystery of God spoken of in Rev. 10:7 when the seventh angel trumpets.

beloved57
July 5th, 2009, 11:42 PM
Here are some more scriptures that set forth the particular nature of salvation from types..

In looking forward to the work of the cross and its accomplishments and its attending blessings, and to who they applied, we have this in Zech 12:10

10And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Notice here to whom the spiritual blessings of repentance was to be poured out to..

Not everyone in the whole wide world, but to the house of David and the inhabitants of jerusalem..

The Jerusalem here is not the city in Israel, but the jerusalem from above:

Gal 4:12

But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Heb 12:23

But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Zech 12 is describing their conversion because of the power and blessings of the cross..

Notice it says the house of David ! The House of David or the Tabernacle of David includes the gentiles..

This we see Acts 15:14-16

14Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.


15And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

16After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

The gentiles are called the tabernacle of David, intimating the mystery that paul fully taught about in His Ministry, but we see here that the apostle James had somewhat been enlightened of the scripture, for he quotes Amos 9:11-12


11In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:

12That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this.

And he of course applies this to the out calling of a people from amongst the gentiles to be a people for Gods name sake..The LORD GOD OF ISRAEL..

Zech 13:1

1In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.

Again, particularily pointing out to whom the fountain was open to..that cleanses from sin and uncleaness [the blood of christ] it was not to or for all mankind, but for the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the house of David.

These designations indicate Gods elect apart from the other inhabitants of the world..

So God has always kept a particular disciminate people to whom He deals with favorably, over and above other people..and its by His grace alone..

beloved57
July 6th, 2009, 09:29 AM
More on the Mystery

Back to the Mystery that paul was called to expound on moreso than any other apostle, and which he proclaimed[ by the gospel] is that the True

Israel of God [ Gal 6:16], the True seed of abraham [ Rom 9:8 , Heb 2:16] who are the heirs of the promises of God [ Gal 3: 7,29 ; 2 Cor 1:20; Rom 15:8; Acts 13:32] are a body composed of all those, wether jew by birth or gentile by birth, who are of the Faith of abraham, who is the father of us all [Rom 4:16,13]vs 13

13For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

The world here is that world that Abraham was made Father of as in Gen 17:5

5Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

People of the many nations are this world..

beloved57
July 27th, 2009, 02:18 AM
Jesus christ being a Saviour is not complete if sinners are not converted unto Him and God. Even David , after being restored, promised God that sinners would be converted unto Thee Ps 51:12-13

12Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

13Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.

Now how much more, the Great Antitype, who was restored by His resurrection from the grave, how much more will He teach sinners and that they shall be converted unto God ?

That was one of the ends in Jesus christ dying, in order to bring the sheep back to God.. 1 Pet 3:18

[B]18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

So the death of christ doesnt just make salvation possible, but it in fact makes effectual the conversion of all for whom He died and rose again..

beloved57
July 27th, 2009, 03:34 PM
In keeping with the particular , discrimanating nature of Gods Love and Salvation..That its for a special people Israel as paul preached in Acts 13:23

23Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

No promise to anyone else..


here is more scripture proof of the same: Isa 45:25

25In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory

In the LORD, that is in the Lord Jesus christ, whom is the True Israel of God..Isa 49:3

3And said unto me, Thou [Jesus christ] art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.


For it is He [ Jesus christ] that Has prevailed with God, whom is a Prince with God, and His seed with Him, that is, those who had been chosen in him before the world began..Eph 1:4

Isa 49:3Thou are my Servant , O Israel in whom I will be Glorifed cp Jn 17:4

4I I [Jesus christ] have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.


Now those chosen in Him [ Jesus christ], are too created for Gods Glory Isa 43:7,21

7Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.

21This people [not all people] have I formed for myself; they shall shew forth my praise.

1 Pet 2:9

9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Now the Promise of Justification is for Israel [ a distinct people] and not Israel after the Flesh, for all the promises to her were conditional and confined to this earth, and that covenant she broke :

Jer 31:32

32Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

Heb 8:9

9Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

But the Israel of God, chosen In the True Israel Servant of God, The Lord Jesus christ..

The Gospel promises have always been directed towards a certain seed, a special chosen people of God known as Israel..which fleshly israel only typified, because the True israel is not chosen by race, but by Grace..for The Lord is the Hope of His people Israel..

Joel 3:16

16The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.


Paul preached even as the Apostle to the gentiles [and because he knew the mystery] That God raised up a Saviour unto the whole world ? No, but unto Israel He raised up a Saviour..

The Lord is the Hope of His people, not the devils People..

Closing references:

Isa 43:20-21

20The beast of the field shall honour me, the dragons and the owls: because I give waters in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert, to give drink to my people, my chosen.

21This people have I formed for myself; they shall shew forth my praise.

Joel 2:26,27,32

26And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed.

27And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.

32And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call. cp Acts 2:39

39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.


The Angel announced this blessed Truth about Jesus Matt 1:21

21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.


All those who teach that there is no discrimination with God, in that He chose a special people above all the Rest to be their God, and they His People and wrought salvation for them..


All such are teaching a false Gospel..

Ps82
August 30th, 2009, 11:02 AM
Beloved57,
If God ONLY sent a savior to the people of Israel, then many of them have certainly missed their chance to be with their LORD in his kingdom, because until this day most of them reject him as the Messiah.

I think your opening scripture simply meant that God had fulfilled his promised to send the Savior through the tribe of Israel of the lineage of King David.

You wrote:

Acts 13:

Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

The Messiah did first go unto Israel with his salvation message ... but your quote was not written in order to exclude the gentiles from also coming unto him for their salvation.

Katie
September 4th, 2009, 01:38 PM
Jeremiah 31's covenant is between the house of Israel and the house of Judah and God (not the world). It was already in effect by the time that Jesus would have been born.

The idea of a newER covenant (as spoken of in Hebrews) and a new Israel is replacement theology that is not supported at all in the Tanakh. You can not replace the People, Israel ... especially when you have no idea what *their* writings (the Tanakh) are even in regards to (that'd be the *ACTUAL* People). :rolleyes:

penofareadywriter
September 4th, 2009, 01:44 PM
Beloved57,
If God ONLY sent a savior to the people of Israel, then many of them have certainly missed their chance to be with their LORD in his kingdom, because until this day most of them reject him as the Messiah.

I think your opening scripture simply meant that God had fulfilled his promised to send the Savior through the tribe of Israel of the lineage of King David.

You wrote:


The Messiah did first go unto Israel with his salvation message ... but your quote was not written in order to exclude the gentiles from also coming unto him for their salvation.

You have reched Beloved 57. I am not in right now..but if you leave your name, number and rebuke at the sound of the tone...I will be sure and put you on my ignore list as soon as I can!:thumb: Thanks, and have a blessed (preprogrammed by God) day..... (child of the devil).......:chuckle:..........:hammer:

Ps82
September 4th, 2009, 04:06 PM
You have reched Beloved 57. I am not in right now..but if you leave your name, number and rebuke at the sound of the tone...I will be sure and put you on my ignore list as soon as I can!:thumb: Thanks, and have a blessed (preprogrammed by God) day..... (child of the devil).......:chuckle:..........:hammer:

If this was a joke meant to be funny, it turned out to be more ridiculous than funny. What on earth are you trying to say?

I'm assuming, that since you are a Christian, you are trying to show me how Beloved responds to truth.

Am I correct?

beloved57
September 6th, 2009, 09:56 AM
Isa 45:17

17But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

But Israel [ The Elect of God] shall [no doubt about it] be saved in the LORD [ Yahweh in Christ] with an everlasting Salvation..and they [ The Elect or the Israel of God] shall [no doubt about it] not be ashamed nor confounded world without end..

What Israel is spoken of here ? Remember Paul teaches that all are not Israel [ of the Election of Grace] that are of Israel [ the nation]

This Israels salvation is premised upon the Blood of the Everlasting Covenant, and not the Mosaic law at Sinai..

This Israel is comprised of the Children of Promise per Rom 9:7-8


7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8

That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

So the Children of Promise here in vs 8 and the first mentioned Israel in vs 6 are the same.

And thats the Israel in view in Isa 45:17

And their Salvation is sure and based upon the Immutable Counsel of The LORD..

Katie
September 6th, 2009, 10:17 AM
isa 45:

17But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

But Israel [ The elect of God] shall [no doubt about it] be saved in the LORD [ Yahweh in Christ] with an everlasting Salvation..and they [ The elect or the Israel of God] shall [no doubt about it] not be ashamed nor confounded world without end..

What Israel is spoken of here ? Remember Paul teaches that all are not Israel [ of the election of grace] that are of Israel [ the nation]

This Israels salvation is premised upon the blood of the everlasting covenant, and not the Mosaic law at Sinai..

This Israel is comprised of the children of promise per rom 9:


7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

So the children of promise here in vs 8 and the first mentioned Israel in vs 6 are the same.

And thats the Israel in view in Isa 45 17..

And their Salvation is sure and based upon the Immutable counsel of The LORD..

Read all of Isaiah 45 .. particularly the part before the "BUT" in verse 17. That section would apply to you. ;)

You are making stuff up. Believe the Tanakh ... you are NOT part of Israel, the People.

beloved57
September 7th, 2009, 05:15 PM
The children of the flesh , Abraham's seed, these are not the children of God, that is Israel but The children of the promise are counted as the seed, that is Israel..Rom 9:8

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed

The children of the promise are counted [reckoned or determined] as the seed, The seed of Israel..Ps 22:23

Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.

This seed of Israel is not based upon race, but grace of election, and comprises men and women of all different ethnic groups..

The children of promise are brought into the world and into the fellowship of salvation as Isaac was..

Gal 4:28

28Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

That is, we are children given to someone , by the promise of the word of God..

Isaac was not consulted or did not believe anything to become a child of promise..neither do true believers in Jesus christ..we [ believers] become so, because we were children of promise, Gods promise..

lets read a little.. Isaac was not born according to the natural course of life or things, for Abraham and Sarah both were up in age, and said to be past the time of life: perhaps denoting they were past the natural ages of having children..she 89 and He 90..But Isaac was promised to the aged couple in spite of natures obstacle, and hence his birth is accomplished by the word and promise and power of God, and not the strength or determination of the human will..and this is where we get the words or ideal of this:

Jn 1:13

Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

The children of promise, the Israel of God, are born of God..

Paul writes to the Galatians, Now we brethren, as Issac was are children of promise..note: believers in Jesus Christ are so, because they were children of promise..and not because they believed God as one false teacher reiterates constantly.. for Isaac was a child of promise before he believed anything..and so are the rest of the children of promise..

The children of promise are the seed, talked about earlier in the same book of Galatians:

reading Gal 3:16

16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

What promise ? Gal 3:8

8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

The promise to Abraham was preached to him by God, that in Him , all nations shall be blessed..that is become as faithful Abraham per Gal 3:9

9So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

becoming believers in Jesus Christ as Abraham was see Jn 8:56

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it , and was glad.

so then all future believers in Jesus Christ make manifest that they were blessed with faithful Abraham as their Father..in that He was a Father of many nations per Gen 17:5

[B]5Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

Notice, a Father of many nations have i made thee, opposed to just being the Father of natural Israel..so we know here God is speaking spiritually, and of all those who would believe on Jesus Christ as being the manifested seed of Abraham per Gal 3:26-29


26For ye are all the children of God [Israel] by faith in Christ Jesus.

27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

See, their is no race difference in the Israel of God, the Children of Promise.

God gave Abraham and Jesus Christ [BTW, The promise was first given to Him] faithful children by His promise..

So the Israel that shall be saved in the LORD are the children of promise comprised of individuals from many nations..

beloved57
November 29th, 2009, 10:38 AM
Isa 45:17

But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

This everlasting salvation is issuing from the blood of the everlasting covenant, the one that was revealed to king david 2 Sam 23:5

Although my house be not so with God; yet he hath made with me an everlasting covenant, ordered in all things, and sure: for this is all my salvation, and all my desire, although he make it not to grow.


This is a promised, not offered, not made a offer of, but a promised sure salvation for a very specific people..[Israel]

Israel is another name for the seed of abraham..

Those gentiles, who scripture foresaw that God would Justify through Faith per Gal 3:8

8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

these [gentiles] are the seed of abraham Gal 3:9

9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

And would also be Israel..The Israel that shall be saved in the LORD..

And so, as paul states in Rom 11, with the grafting in of the elect gentiles, so then all Israel shall be saved per Rom 11:25-26

25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

All the seed of abraham shall be saved..

beloved57
December 2nd, 2009, 07:58 AM
Ps 130:7-8

7 Let Israel hope in the LORD: for with the LORD there is mercy, and with him is plenteous redemption.

8 And he shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities.

This is not speaking about Israel of the flesh, but the Israel of God, Gods chosen people..

You see, there is a Israel that is comprised of all the seed of Abraham, the children of promise, which is made up of both elect jews and gentiles..

Rom 9:6-8

6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

But this gives us to be reminded that only a chosen people have the right and privilege to hope in the LORD and His redemption..

Knight
December 2nd, 2009, 11:49 AM
Hey Beloved.... TOL is for dialog.

Nobody wants to read your ramblings. Either begin to dialog or please go away.

Ps82
December 2nd, 2009, 12:51 PM
Just adding an updated word.
Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and besides me (the LORD) there is no SAVIOR.

The secret to the truth of this matter of how an invisible God can be come the manifested visible SAVIOR is to know the answer to this ONE question:

Exactly who is the LORD? I've discovered this answer... and it makes the entire Bible make sense!

beloved57
December 14th, 2009, 03:32 PM
Rom 9:6

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

According to this verse, is paul recognizing Two distinct Israel's ? If yes, what is the difference of the Two ?

If no, then why did He use those words like that ?

Nick M
December 15th, 2009, 07:39 AM
That Israel was no longer viewed as a mere physical ethnic nation, but that israel was comprised of gentiles as well, who became israel..



Then why did the prophet Ezekiel tell how the third temple was to be built following the 70th week?

He must be a false prophet. So is Daniel now that I think about it.

Start reading at Ezekiel 40.

beloved57
December 15th, 2009, 08:22 AM
Then why did the prophet Ezekiel tell how the third temple was to be built following the 70th week?

He must be a false prophet. So is Daniel now that I think about it.

Start reading at Ezekiel 40.

Dont dodge the issue, can you answer post 19 ?

Nick M
December 15th, 2009, 11:58 AM
Dummy, the Body of Christ is for all the world. That is seperate from Jacob's (Israel) earthly inheritance.

Nick M
December 15th, 2009, 12:00 PM
rom 9:

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

According to this verse, is paul recognizing Two distinct Israel's ? If yes, what is the difference of the Two ?

If no, then why did He use those words like that ?

The olive tree is earthly Israel. Not the Body. Circumcised gentiles that blessed Israel and honored God are welcome to be with earthly Israel. Well, that doesn't matter today.

beloved57
December 15th, 2009, 01:07 PM
The olive tree is earthly Israel. Not the Body. Circumcised gentiles that blessed Israel and honored God are welcome to be with earthly Israel. Well, that doesn't matter today.

Did Paul say that there are Two distinct Israels or Not ?

Nick M
December 15th, 2009, 01:09 PM
Did Paul say that there are Two distinct Israels or Not ?

Not. Now you go answer Ezekiel. Do you think God showed him that in error?

beloved57
December 15th, 2009, 01:11 PM
Dummy, the Body of Christ is for all the world. That is seperate from Jacob's (Israel) earthly inheritance.

Jacob looked for an Heavenly Inheritance according to Heb 11:

9By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

10For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.


And also, Answer the question and quit playing dodge ball like a little kid, How many Israels does paul acknowledge..

rom 9:

6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

beloved57
December 15th, 2009, 01:12 PM
Not. Now you go answer Ezekiel. Do you think God showed him that in error?

Not..then you plainly deny scripture, whats the use in dialouging with someone who flat out denies scripture, your mind is so deceived , there is no telling what foolishness will spue out of your mouth..

Nick M
December 15th, 2009, 10:12 PM
They are not all his that claim they are. This isn't hard.

beloved57
December 16th, 2009, 08:45 AM
There was a national Israel and a remnant Israel..Rom 9:6

Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Rom 9:27

27Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Rom 11:4-7

4But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

5Even so then at this present time also there is a Remnant according to the election of grace.

6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

The promises of old were to Israel the Remnant, who were in National Israel, and God has been faithful to His promises to the Remnant Israel, thats why paul says:

Rom 11:1-2

1I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.

So the promises has always been not to all of the nation of Israel, but to a remnant within the nation..which too is Israel, the Israel of God..

beloved57
December 16th, 2009, 08:46 AM
They are not all his that claim they are. This isn't hard.

Thats not what it says..

beloved57
December 21st, 2009, 05:51 PM
The True Israel of God is really Jesus Christ..There are scriptures that indicate this i.e Isa 49:1-3

1Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.

2And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me; 3

And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

Jesus Christ was the antitype of Jacob or Israel, being the Head and Representative of the whole Israel of God, which is His body, the church.

The prophecy in Hosea indicates that Jesus Christ is Gods Son Israel
Hos 11:1

When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

Now see how the Holy Spirit applies this too Jesus in Matt 2:15

And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

So Israel is all those who are in Union with Gods Son Israel..for they were chosen in Him

Eph 1:4

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

beloved57
December 22nd, 2009, 04:02 PM
Jn 15:1

1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

Jesus here is intimating that He is the True Israel..for vine represents Israel in scripture. Now remember how that the Son out of egypt intimated Jesus as Israel i.e Hos 11:1

1When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

Matt 2:15

15And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

Now there is more scripture confirmation that this son called out of egypt, which was christ typified, also is typified by a vine, lets look at Ps 80:8

8Thou hast brought a vine out of Egypt: thou hast cast out the heathen, and planted it.

This vine out of egypt, is Jesus the True Israel, the True vine of Jn 15: 1

And it serves to reason, all those chosen in Him before the foundation are the true Sons of Israel..

beloved57
December 24th, 2009, 07:50 PM
Rom 11:28

28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

The unbelieving Jews were enemies of the gospel and to all who were true believers, both jew and gentile. For Paul himself as an unbelieving jew was a enemie to those who preached and believed the gospel [ 1 Tim 1:13 ; Acts 9], but as for the election of grace within Israel, these are loved for the promises made to fathers sake, the promises that there would be deliverance for ethnic jews is kept by God in the deliverance of the election of grace within the jewish people, as paul himself was an example of [ Rom 11:1] So this verse here speaks as rom 9:6 contrasting the two Israels, which are Unbelieving Israel the enemies of the gospel [ permanently ] and the remnant which is according to the election of grace, who of course start out as enemies by nature as paul did , but will be delivered or converted to Jesus christ as Paul was.. The remnant along with the believing gentiles is how all Israel will be saved, and at the same time God being Faithful to ethnic Jews who are part of the election of grace..

beloved57
December 25th, 2009, 07:01 PM
When the fulness of the gentiles has come in, it will be no longer time for any to be grafted into the olive tree, at that time [ the end] all Israel shall be saved [ Not National Israel] but all Israel, the Israel of God, all them chosen in the True servant Israel, Jesus christ [ isa 49 ], this is clearly stated rom 11:26. Again Jesus is the Israel of whom the promises pertained [ gal 3:16] also see isa 49:1-3 of which it is said, has a sword in His mouth and His Name is Israel..Isa 49:

Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me

from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.

2And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me; 3And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

No doubt this is Jesus christ, and except one is in christ, they are not of the Israel of promise, which again is why paul writes rom 9:6. There was a national external covenant Israel, through the Law [ ex 20], and there is the eternal covenant Israel through election in Jesus christ before the world began, the foreknown rom 11:1..

Now if Jesus christ is the Israel per Isa 49, Hos 1 ; matt 2:15; and ps 80:8, then the church, His body, is the representation of the body of Israel..

When the last elect jew or gentile is brought into fellowship with Jesus christ their Head, then the end shall come..

Nick M
December 25th, 2009, 09:54 PM
When the fulness of the gentiles has come in, it will be no longer time for any to be grafted into the olive tree, at that time [ the end] all Israel shall be saved [ Not National Israel] but all Israel, the Israel of God, all them chosen in the True servant Israel, Jesus christ [ isa 49 ], this is clearly stated rom 11:26.

Time for your daily dose. :mock: beretard57

beloved57
December 26th, 2009, 05:12 AM
Titus 1:14

Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

The whole concoction of a future restoration of National Israel is premised on mere speculation and spiritual blindness to the truth; for If God did make such a promise, then the promise would be unconditional, and if so, then how and why did He cut her off as branches from the covenant olive tree because of their unbelief ? For that would be absurd and contradicts the very nature of God in being Faithful to His covenant promises in spite of our unbelief per 2 tim 2:

13If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

But yet the false teaching of today's dispensationalist says just that, that Israel [ the nation] has been rejected only temporarily due to unbelief !

Nick M
December 26th, 2009, 07:25 AM
The whole concoction of a future restoration of National Israel is premised on mere speculation and spiritual blindness to the truth; for If God did make such a promise, then the promise would be unconditional,

Actually, it is conditional, as all his prophecy regarding a nation. And don't you think God's predictions are pretty good? He said Israel will repent and turn to him.


and if so, then how and why did He cut her off as branches from the covenant olive tree because of their unbelief ?

Because many people shake their fist at God.



But yet the false teaching of today's dispensationalist says just that, that Israel [ the nation] has been rejected only temporarily due to unbelief !

Romans 11

1I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

8(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

9And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

10Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

11I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

:mock: beretarded57

beloved57
December 26th, 2009, 09:01 AM
Rom 11:26

26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob

The all Israel that will be saved is the all Israel for which the deliverer came out of zion [ which is Christ the messiah first coming] Isa 59:20

20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.

The all Israel for whom He went to the cross to redeem per Ps 130:7-8

7 Let Israel hope in the LORD: for with the LORD there is mercy, and with him is plenteous redemption.

8 And he shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities.

Isa 44:21-23

21Remember these, O Jacob and Israel; for thou art my servant: I have formed thee; thou art my servant: O Israel,[see Isa 49:3] thou shalt not be forgotten of me.

22I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee.

23Sing, O ye heavens; for the LORD hath done it: shout, ye lower parts of the earth: break forth into singing, ye mountains, O forest, and every tree therein: for the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and glorified himself in Israel

Lk:68

68Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

This is not carnal Israel, but all the Israel of God, chosen not by race but by Grace in the Israel of God, Jesus Christ. The New Covenant with Israel is inclusive of the fullness of the gentiles and when that is completed, then cometh to pass, and so all Israel shall be saved, by the deliverer that came out of zion..

This was fulfilled during Jesus Christ first coming, and during His ministry then, He was the King that cometh unto zion..

Matt 21:1-6

1And when they drew nigh unto Jerusalem, and were come to Bethphage, unto the mount of Olives, then sent Jesus two disciples,

2Saying unto them, Go into the village over against you, and straightway ye shall find an *** tied, and a colt with her: loose them, and bring them unto me.

3And if any man say ought unto you, ye shall say, The Lord hath need of them; and straightway he will send them.

4All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying,

5Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ***, and a colt the foal of an ***.

6And the disciples went, and did as Jesus commanded them,

This turning of Jacob from ungodliness was accomplished by Jesus death on the cross, for it was used of God to turn many ethnic Jews of Israel to God, peter states here Acts 3:25-26

25Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

26Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities. cp with Rom 11:26

26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob

beloved57
December 27th, 2009, 09:44 AM
Rom 11:29

29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

For the gifts and callings of God are without repentance; and thats why for the Fathers sake there is a remnant [ Israel of God] in Israel [ National Israel], again thats why Paul, a benjamite, a hebrew of hebrews , was made to see[converted], and thats why he had a good hope that many more of his jewish brethren would be turned to the Lord, they too being of the foreknown of God and the election of grace, of which the rest were broken off in their unbelief.

Note: When God set aside the National Covenant with Israel as a Nation being the representation of the Kingdom of God on earth as His People, that did not mean He would not still save ethnic Jews by grace..

You see those that were blinded [ Jn 9:39] were made enemies for the gentiles sake, that the elect remnant of them [ see Acts 15:14-16] may be grafted into the Olive Tree, but in regards to the remnant according to the election of grace [in national Israel], they are beloved for the Fathers sake, because the gifts and the callings of God's own eternal purpose of grace [ 2 Tim 1:9] and not race.

For God did not repent of His purpose of Judicial blindness unto the nation of Israel [ Jn 9:39] nor of His purpose and calling of the election of grace of the gentiles for james says:

Acts 15:17-18

17That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

18Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

This blinding of national Israel and introducing of the gentiles into covenant relationship with the elect remnant of the jews, was all of Gods doing .. Matt 21:42

Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

Nick M
December 27th, 2009, 10:02 AM
They are not all his that claim they are. This isn't hard.


Thats not what it says..

Really? So you changed your mind?


Now as we continue the Romans 9 study, we see that Paul in explaining what seems to be a perplexity as to why the Jews are being excluded , most of them, as individuals of that nation. He explains that not all Jews from that nation are truly Jews

I deleted most of your post, as you were given an infraction for its length.

You blithering idiot. :mock: bestupid57

beloved57
December 27th, 2009, 11:32 AM
nick:


I deleted most of your post


Lol..you did..so what is it you dont agree with about post 39 ?

Nick M
December 27th, 2009, 12:02 PM
You tell me, beezelbub. I said not all Israel is Israel. And you disputed it. So I showed where you said the same thing.

You argue for the sake of arguing. Unless it is over your unbiblical cosmic lottery posts.

beloved57
December 27th, 2009, 12:32 PM
nick:


You tell me

I did not think you had a answer for acripture with all that mouth of yours, and i am teaching a subject you think you know, but you dont..just take notes..

beloved57
December 28th, 2009, 01:23 PM
For God has not changed His purpose of Grace towards Israel, for He keeps His covenant faithfulness [ in spite of the rejection of Him by the jews of national Israel] He keeps His promise by converting the remnant according to the election of grace..That is Paul's point in Rom 11:2

God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. That means there were Jews in Israel He foreknew in their being chosen in Christ and predestinated to the Image of His Son per Rom 8:28


28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

So God is Faithful in converting the Jews of the nation who are of the election, and He is Faithful in converting the gentiles of the nations who are of the election..and Gods plan entailed breaking off national Israel for the grafting in of the gentiles..

So in reality, it is those who believe in some kinda postponement theory [ jewish fable] that have no understanding of Gods immutability, for they fail to see Gods purpose in national Israel fall [ Matt 21:42-43 ] and the grafting in of the gentiles per Acts 15:17-18


17That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world

Notice how this calling of the gentiles is associated with the building up of the tabernacle of David vs

16After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

This building again was in a spiritual way..notice how the terminology of building is used by Paul with the adding of the gentiles to build the temple of God Eph 2:19-22

19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;


20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit

We should all know that the temple was built after the pattern of the tabernacle..

So vs 29 of Romans 11 is emphatically stating that the gifts and callings to the remnant Jews, and the remnant gentiles are without repentance by God; for this is evidenced by the everlasting covenant to Israel has not been annulled by the reject and blindness of National Israel in part, because the election [ within the nation] hath obtained the promises of the everlasting covenant along with the elect gentiles in the world, and this was the Mystery, but now being revealed by the Gospel..

beloved57
December 28th, 2009, 03:32 PM
Rom 11:32

32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all

This is one of the most misunderstood verses in romans, and the false teachers and followers of antichrist have a field day with it wresting it out of context. This verse is in the context of Paul's exposition of the mystery !

Rom 11:25

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Rom 16:25

Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

Eph 3:3

How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

And how the unbelief of national Israel [ the partial blindness] was ordered by God for the inclusion or grafting in of the gentiles into Covenant Israel.

Now by God doing this, the gentiles [ the church] would now be instrumental of God, to call by the preaching of the gospel, the elect Jews of the nation into fellowship with Jesus Christ, as well as the elect gentiles too..In other words, now that national Israel is cut off, the elect Jews in that nation will come to faith in Christ through the preaching of the church, which would now be mainly gentiles. So God has by succession plans concluded both Jew and gentiles under unbelief, in order to Have mercy upon all, all people groups..

For at first the gentiles for the most part were in unbelief and ignorant to God and the true way of salvation during the OT era..but now under the new covenant era the tide has changed, and now the Jews for the most part are under unbelief, and now God has mercy on the remnant Jews through the ministry of the gentiles or church..

This was intimated long ago in this prophecy Isa 61:6

But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.

remember back earlier in Rom 11 this statement ? Rom 11:12

Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

The enriching of the gentiles, will fall to the enriching of the elect remnant in national Israel, even though for the most part the many Jews of that nation were blinded..

But the gentile church, would be used of God up until the end, to call out of national Israel a people for His name sake, as He called out of the gentiles a people for his name sake see Acts 15:14..

So thats what Paul means in this verse, in having mercy on all.. He shut down earlier the gentiles in unbelief [ OT ] and under the NT He shut down the Jews in unbelief..and He will have mercy upon each people group, for both groups of people contain a remnant according to the election of grace, which are the vessels of mercy, not of the Jews only but also of the gentiles Rom 9:23-24


23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

beloved57
January 13th, 2010, 10:47 PM
1 Cor 10:18

18 Observe Israel after the flesh: Are not those who eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?

Israel after the flesh makes no sense in saying unless there is a Israel after the Spirit..

Rom 9:6

6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

beloved57
July 22nd, 2010, 08:22 AM
That Jesus Christ is a Saviour unto Israel is the scriptural and biblical Gospel.

Paul preached it Acts 13:23

Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

That is, He is a Saviour unto the elect, for what is Israel but another name for Gods Chosen or elect.

Isa 41:8

But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.

God hath raised up Jesus to be a Saviour to His Chosen !

beloved57
July 24th, 2010, 04:16 PM
A Saviour to Israel means that Jesus Christ purpose was to be a Saviour to Gods elect or chosen.

Acts 13:23

23Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

This proves that paul preached a limited atonement, and paul says that if any man preach another gospel different from what he had preached, let them be accursed.

Jesus resurrection was unto Israel, Gods Chosen !

beloved57
July 25th, 2010, 02:45 PM
Repentance and Remission of sins is only for Gods elect or Chosen. Acts 5:31

31Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

And this Elect Israel is among the Gentiles Acts 11:18

Israel is another way of saying Gods chosen people, His elect.

For any to preach repentance without indicating specifically who it is for as peter does here, they are not preaching the whole counsel of God, which makes it a false gospel.

beloved57
August 21st, 2010, 03:22 AM
1 Cor 2:12-13


12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

All scripture first and foremost is spiritual truth, inspired by the Living God 2 Tim 3:16

16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

This applies to both OT and NT. The Lord Jesus Christ fulfills all scripture, all was centered in Him Lk 24:26-27

26Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

27And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Jesus must open our understanding so that we can receive the spiritual meaning of the scriptures, and not just the letter of scripture. Lk 24:44-45


44And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

45Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

They needed to have a spiritual understanding of the scriptures as how they pertained to Christ, again pointing to what paul meant in 1 Cor 2:13

The Holy Spirit now continues what Christ did, in opening up the understanding of scripture OT and NT to see the Glories of Christ. Jesus said that when He shall come into the world that He shall:

Jn 16:13-14


13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14He shall glorify me:

The bringing into existence of National Israel was a type of Christ !

Christ is and always has been the True Israel of God, National Israel was merely a type.

Lets look at this verse and see how it is spiritually applied to Christ.

Ex 4:22

22And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

The inspired writer was inspired to write these words because The Nation of Israel was a type liken unto Christ, Gods Firstborn Son

Rom 8:29

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Col 1:15

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

And through Him the True Israel of God will be delivered from bondage and sin, sins servitude Jn 8:32-36


32And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

33They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

34Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

35And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

36If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.



This nation was designated Gods Firstborn only because it was typical and a shadow , a visible likeness of the True Israel of God, Christ. National Israel was also a type of the body of Christ, for the Head and Body are one.

The Nation was termed the firstfruits Jer 2:3a

Israel was holiness unto the LORD, and the firstfruits of his increase:

Because Christ is the Firstfruit [1 Cor 15:23]

The nation was termed Chosen Deut 7:6 because Christ was Chosen Isa 42:1

Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

The Nation was called Son Ex 4:22 because Christ is the Son Jn 8:36

If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

It is only because of Christ all these designations find realization. And Inheritance into Israel is not by natural birth, but by being born of the seed of Christ Isa 53:10

Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

The incorruptible seed of the word of God 1 Pet 1:23

23Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

The Inheritance of this Israel is not subject to corruption 1 Pet 1:4

4To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

This is the Inheritance that Abraham sought after as the Father of the Faithful Heb 11:16

16But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

This was fulfilled in Christ, The Israel of God, Gods Firstborn Son !

And all that belong to Christ, belong to The Israel of God Gal 3:29

29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed [Israel], and heirs according to the promise.

Gal 3:16

16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed [Israel], which is Christ.

beloved57
September 19th, 2010, 10:55 PM
Rom 11:25-26


25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

All Israel is saved by God's Mystery plan and purpose, and not according to the natural mind of men.

Israel was saved by God's hardening of non elect jews, from Covenant Israel [ which were ethnic jews who were genuine believers in the messiah] and the grafting in of gentiles believers into Covenant Israel, and in this manner all Israel shall be saved, the Israel of God !

This is confirmed by the mentioning of the gentiles as entering in eiselthein


And what are they entering into ? The Covenant Israel, the Commonwealth of Israel Eph 2:12,19

12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

The ethnic jews who were saved !

What Paul is is saying, is that Israel of promise is being saved contrary to what people think, its not by God saving all ethnic jews, but by the breaking off of the unsaved jews, and the grafting in of the saved gentiles into fellowship with the saved jews, is how God planned and purpose to save all Israel. This was a Mystery !

beloved57
September 19th, 2010, 11:37 PM
The use of the term mystery is quite befitting to describe that All Israel shall be saved by means of the gentiles being brought into the Faith of the Messiah, the Jewish Messiah at that !

Although they may not have been quite clear on the matter, but the True Saints of the OT like David and Isiah and the early NT saints like Simeon and others, when prophesying of the coming Messiah and or His work of salvation to Israel, they always had subjoined a reference to the gentiles as well.

Isa 49:6

And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.


Isa 42:6

I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

lk 2:32

A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

God of course would raise up Paul to further expound this Mystery !

beloved57
November 12th, 2010, 11:29 PM
Rom 11:24 & Eph 2:11-13
Rom 11:24

24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

Eph 2:11-15,19

11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;


12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man [Or Israel], so making peace;

19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God [Israel];


The Israel that God loves and foreknew use to be represented by both saved and reprobated jews in the Nation of Israel, but now having broken off the reprobated jews [ The physical nation of Israel as a whole] and grafting in the saved gentiles, the Israel of God is represented by both saved jews and saved gentiles, instead of saved jews and reprobated jews.

beloved57
November 13th, 2010, 05:28 PM
The scripture is full of the evidence that both jew and gentile would be the One People of God, the Israel of God, a Spiritual People, with no ethnic distinction.

That both would be a union of believers in Christ Gal 3:16,29

16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

This was predicted in the book of Gen 3:15


15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed [Christ Gal 3:16]; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Later in the book of genesis we have regarding the Sons of Noah this promise Gen 9:26-27


26And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

27God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

Japheth, a patriarch of the gentiles,, would dwell in the tents of shem, the father of the semitic race.

This was fulfilled with Christ death Eph 2:12-19


12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

beloved57
December 31st, 2010, 10:02 AM
According to scripture who is Israel ? Truly in scripture Israel can be defined in three ways. We know for one it means the physical nation of Israel, and taken alone they are not the Children of God Rom 9:8.

However in the scripture truth Israel is also applied to Jesus Christ the Son of God i.e Isa 49:3; Hos 11:1 cp Matt 2:15; and thirdly Israel refers to believers that belong to Christ, which are the seed of Abraham and Heirs according to Promise..

Just like Ishmael could not be a heir as a seed of Abraham per Gal 4:30

30Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

So not all of that nation of Israel was the Israel that was heir, heir of God and joint heir with Christ.

Gal 3:29 Rom 9:8 Rom 2:28-29..

Now notice this statement Rom 11:17

17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

It should not be hard to conclude that a physical nation is not the subject as to being grafted into..But now the gentiles were grafted into the same tree.

Now the branches that God removed were the majority of the jews that comprised the physical nation, and gentiles as wild branches were grafted into the olive tree [Spiritual Israel] and now share the future inheritance with the saved patriarchs, the True Israel of God, the promises made to them, hence Paul's statements Eph 3:6

6That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Gal 3:8
8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

beloved57
December 31st, 2010, 10:40 AM
Now that its established that scripturally there are up to three different Israels #1. The physical nation which is formulated by all the physical seed of Abraham brought out of the land of egypt and constituted a nation at Sinai ex 20. Note, within this nation was also spiritual Israel, True Believers in Christ..

#2 The Lord Jesus Christ, the servant of Jehovah Isa 49:3

3And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

Hos 11:1 and Matt 2:15

1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

Scripture refers this to Christ Matt 2:15

15And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

Jn 15:1

1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

Ps 80:8

8Thou hast brought a vine out of Egypt: thou hast cast out the heathen, and planted it.

This vine is also called my Firstborn Son Ex 4:22-23

22And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

23And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.

All the above is scripture witness that Jesus Christ is Israel..


#3. All believers who belong to Christ [Israel] are Israel or the seed of Abraham, the children of promise Gal 3:29

29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Rom 9:8

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

The physical jews from Abraham are not the children of promise Israel, but His spiritual children through Christ His seed are, which is the Israel of God which belongeth all the promises..

steko
December 31st, 2010, 11:35 AM
Jer 23:5 "Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch, and he shall reign as king and deal wisely, and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land.
Jer 23:6 In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell securely. And this is the name by which he will be called: 'The LORD is our righteousness.'
Jer 23:7 "Therefore, behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when they shall no longer say, 'As the LORD lives who brought up the people of Israel out of the land of Egypt,' Jer 23:8 but 'As the LORD lives who brought up and led the offspring of the house of Israel out of the north country and out of all the countries where he had driven them.' Then they shall dwell in their own land."

Luk 1:32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David,
Luk 1:33 and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end."

Luk 1:54 He has helped his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy,
Luk 1:55 as he spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to his offspring forever."

Luk 1:67 And his father Zechariah was filled with the Holy Spirit and prophesied, saying,
Luk 1:68 "Blessed be the Lord God of Israel, for he has visited and redeemed his people
Luk 1:69 and has raised up a horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David,
Luk 1:70 as he spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets from of old,
Luk 1:71 that we should be saved from our enemies and from the hand of all who hate us;
Luk 1:72 to show the mercy promised to our fathers and to remember his holy covenant,
Luk 1:73 the oath that he swore to our father Abraham, to grant us
Luk 1:74 that we, being delivered from the hand of our enemies, might serve him without fear,

These verses are not speaking of 'the church' but literal national Israel.
Zechariah and Jeremiah were speaking by the Holy Spirit. Gabriel was GOD's messenger.

Was the Holy Spirit mistaken?
David's throne was not located in heaven but in Jerusalem. The 'land' is not heaven but eretz Israel.

The 'Church' is promised heaven. The 'remnant' of Israel is promised a King sitting on David's throne and restoration in 'the land'.

The only way that one can dismiss these truths is to retroactively reinterpret 'Israel' in the OT to mean the 'Church'. This is called 'Replacement Theology' and it is an unjustifiable eisegesis of scripture, in other words, one has forsaken the plain meaning of terms and literal meaning and has resorted to an imposed allegorical interpretation.

Zeke
December 31st, 2010, 12:50 PM
Acts 1:6, The answer wasn't that God wouldn't restore Israel. Jesus answered it wasn't for them to know when God was going to establish it.

Jer 31:31, is a reference to His covenant People, not the new creation of the one new man.

steko
December 31st, 2010, 01:33 PM
Acts 1:6, The answer wasn't that God wouldn't restore Israel. Jesus answered it wasn't for them to know when God was going to establish it.

Jer 31:31, is a reference to His covenant People, not the new creation of the one new man.

I agree!

beloved57
December 31st, 2010, 09:34 PM
Now out of the 3 different Israels that scripture confirms which Israel are the promises to ? This includes the land promise as well.

Lets first look at the promises made to Abraham, who is the representative head of both physical and spiritual seed of Israel the Father of all who believe per Rom 4:16-17

16Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

17(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Now as we observe these promises to Abraham it is very important to see that there are two types of promises made to Abraham, those that included Him in the promise and those that did not include him.

Now lets look at one of the covenant promises to Him but did not include him !

Gen 12:6-7


6And Abram passed through the land unto the place of Sichem, unto the plain of Moreh. And the Canaanite was then in the land.

7And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.

This is a promise to give Abraham's physical seed the land of canaan..But this promise was not given to Abraham personally and it was not stated in this promise how long the physical seed of Abram would have this land..

The promise of Abraham's physical seed receiving land without Him appears again in Gen 15:18-21

18In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

19The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,

20And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims,

21And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.

And again its mentioned by Abraham Gen 24:7


7The LORD God of heaven, which took me from my father's house, and from the land of my kindred, and which spake unto me, and that sware unto me, saying, Unto thy seed will I give this land; he shall send his angel before thee, and thou shalt take a wife unto my son from thence.

And again, in these references it never speaks of Abraham being made a promise to have this land, but His seed, physical descendants, and not once is it said by God for how long they would have this physical land of canaan...

Now another covenant promise was made to Abraham in scripture which did include Him in the promise Gen 12:1-3

1Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

2And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Gen 13:15-17

15For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.

16And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.

17Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee.

Notice this promise God specifically says to Abram that He would give it personally to Abraham, and so the words to thee is used..

For this promise is to both Abraham and His seed both and the possession of this land is eternal..

This covenant promise is spoken again in Gen 17:5-8

5Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

6And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.

7And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

8And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

For this is also confirmed to Isaac and Jacob Gen 26:1-5

1And there was a famine in the land, beside the first famine that was in the days of Abraham. And Isaac went unto Abimelech king of the Philistines unto Gerar.

2And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of:

3Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;

4And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Gen 28:12-15

12And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.

13And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, [B]to thee will I give it, and to thy seed;

14And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

15And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.

And so thats why the writer of Hebrews writes that Isaac and Jacob were heirs together of the same promise Heb 11:8-10

8By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

9By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

10For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

And this land, inheritance which they sought as a result of the promise was heavenly:

Heb 11:13-16

13These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

14For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.

15And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

16But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

This land or country they sought was not a physical plot of land in the middle east, but a heavenly hope, for as a result of this promise they considered themselves strangers and pilgrims of this earth, because their land promise, their country promise was heavenly..

BTW, it is this heavenly hope of the Fathers that Paul meant here in Acts 26:6-8


6And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God, unto our fathers:

7Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews.

8Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead?

Amen, the Land, the Country thast the True Fathers hoped for, was only to be attained through the resurrection of the dead, a heavenly hope, the same peter writes about 1 Pet 1:3-4

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

This is the same promise that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob had from those promises made them personally in genesis..

beloved57
January 1st, 2011, 08:08 PM
I have pointed out in the previous post that there are Two different covenant promises to Abraham and the Land. One Promise was without Abraham being a partaker of but only His seed, and the Other Promise Abraham was to be a Partaker of with His seed.

One Covenant Promise that did not include Abraham, but it did include His physical seed Israel was fulfilled in that God gave them the Land that He promised, but God never did stipulate in the promise, how long they would retain the Land. In fact He made certain stipulations and conditions [Deut 8:18-20;30:18] But that He did fulfill that promise is seen here in scripture :

Joshua 21:43-45

43And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.

44And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.

45There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.


Neh 9:7-8

7Thou art the LORD the God, who didst choose Abram, and broughtest him forth out of Ur of the Chaldees, and gavest him the name of Abraham;

8And foundest his heart faithful before thee, and madest a covenant with him to give the land of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Jebusites, and the Girgashites, to give it, I say, to his seed, and hast performed thy words; for thou art righteous:

So we see here, that God's word testifies to God's Faithfulness in giving Abraham's Physical seed the Land that He promised...But we also see that there was no guarantee of continuity..

beloved57
January 3rd, 2011, 05:14 AM
Now the promise to Abraham as it regarded his physical seed national Israel entering into the land of promise , God hath fulfilled as per Josh 21:43 points out. Abraham was not personally promised this land.

But, the Land promise that Abraham was personally promised to receive along with His Spiritual seed, this land promise would not be fulfilled for Abraham and His seed until the resurrection morning..In this promise all the Patriarchs died in Faith not receiving the promise Heb 11:13

These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

We know that they perceived these promises of Land to be spiritual and heavenly because they seen them by Faith, not the Faith of the natural man, but of the Spiritual kind..This faith caused them to confess that they were pilgrims and strangers on the earth, so the land obviously was not of this earth they sought after and desired as a result of the promise...

Now here are some Facts about the two covenant promises to keep in mind !

To Abrahams Physical seed the land promise was fulfilled, to Abraham personally and His spiritual seed, it will be fulfilled .

To Abraham's physical seed, there was no guarantee of continuity, but to Abraham and His Spiritual seed, it will be a eternal possession !


To Abraham' physical seed, their possession of the Land was conditioned by continued obedience to the national covenant or they would lose their inheritance as per Deut 8:18-20


18But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day.

19And it shall be, if thou do at all forget the LORD thy God, and walk after other gods, and serve them, and worship them, I testify against you this day that ye shall surely perish.

20As the nations which the LORD destroyeth before your face, so shall ye perish; because ye would not be obedient unto the voice of the LORD your God.

But to Abraham and His Spiritual seed the land promise is unconditional and eternal..

The one promise was for national Israel, Abraham's Physical natural seed, but the other promise included Abraham and all who believed on Christ Gal 3:7,29

7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The promises that God made to Abraham concerning national Israel, have been completely fulfilled as per Joshua 21:41-45; Neh 9:7-8, so God owes them no more from any promise that He gave to Abraham.

The promises that God gave to Abraham regarding both He and His seed, which includes all who believe in Christ per Gal 3:7, 29 have not yet been fulfilled, but will be fulfilled in the New Earth. The city the patriarchs were looking for was one whose builder and maker is God as per Heb 11:10

10For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

That means He look for an inheritance in the New Jerusalem, not a earthly jerusalem, which was made by men..

beloved57
January 4th, 2011, 11:05 AM
Now in Light of these different Israels, which one would you suppose has the Glorious future ? Remember, the prophets of the OT , though they used language steeped in Jewish tradition and understanding, yet it was said later of peter that they really prophesied of the grace that would be shown to believers in Christ, the church. Lets read 1 pet 1:

9Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

10Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

With this in mind, What are the Promises that seem to show a Glorious future for National Israel i.e ezk 37:21-28..

Is that really National Isreal, the physical descendants of Abraham in view here ?

I do not believe so, and I will show why in post to follow..

beloved57
January 5th, 2011, 08:00 AM
What are the Promises that seem to show a Glorious future for National Israel i.e Ezk 37:21-28

Is that really National Israel, the physical descendants of Abraham in view here ?

We shall now observe this promise to Israel in Ezk 37:21-28

1.Its promised that God will gather the children of Israel from among the nations and bring them into their own land vs 21

2. God shall make them one nation vs 22

3. There will be one King over them, that is one Shepherd, David vs 22,24

4. They shall be cleansed from their transgressions vs 23 see Heb 8:12

5. They shall be the people of God, and God will be their God vs 23 see Heb 8:10

6. They shall have the Land given to Jacob forever vs 25 see Heb 11:8-9; Gen 17:8; 28:14; Lk 1:32-33

7. God will be in the midst of them forever vs 28 see Rev 21:22; 22:3

Now there is no doubt that these things are yet to be fulfilled, but again, to which Israel do they pertain ?

We, have National Israel, the physical seed of Abraham, We Have Jesus Christ, The Seed of Abraham who is Called Israel, and we have all believers in Christ who are the seed of Abraham[Israel] spiritually Gal 3:29 !

Is National Israel in view here in Ezk 37: 21ff ? No, its not National Israel the Physical seed of Abraham because they were not the children of God and Promise according to Rom 9:8


8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

They are in fact contrasted to the Children of promise !

Also Matt 8:10-12 applies to them :


10When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

11And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

12But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Now, who are these Children of the kingdom that will be cast out and not partake of the Kingdom with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob [remember Ezk 37:25]

The Children or sons of the kingdom is a Semitic term for National Israel, and Jesus is saying they lost their claim to this eternal kingdom, much like what is said here Matt 21:43

43Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

So when we combine these two together, we see no promise of National Israel being restored, but the Gentiles, the Spiritual seed of Abraham , those from the east and the west shall inherit the eternal kingdom with The Patriarchs instead..

Lets Comp Matt 8:11 with Ezk 37:21

Ezk 37:21

21And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

Matt 8:11

11And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

The Kingdom of Heaven is that Eternal land of Promise..

Also, God is no respecter of Persons Acts 10:34-35

34Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

35But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

This means God will not show any special favor to anyone because of the national origin, but to those who fear Him in every nation. National Israel is not a Holy Nation, they despised the Messiah, and the believers in Christ are the Holy Nation 1 Pet 2:9=10

9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

10Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

God has indicated that He will not show special favor to any nation by ethnicity Acts 10:34, and He is not going to change His Mind..

beloved57
January 6th, 2011, 12:05 PM
We have looked at why Ezk 37:21-28 could not be referring to National Israel.

The second Israel, the Lord Jesus Christ, we know the prophecy cannot be referring to Him, for He was never scattered among the nations or heathen, and the prophecy has a plural fulfillment as in vs

26Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

That Leaves us with one more possibility, the Israel of God, all those who believe in Christ..

Lets see how this fits !

#1. God will gather the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they are scattered..

Is that not what the high Priest prophesied about in regards to Christ death ? Jn 11:49-52

49And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,

50Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

51And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

52And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

This is compatible also with Jesus words Jn 10:15,16,18,19

15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Was not that the underline motive for Jesus sending His disciples unto all nations Matt 28:18-19

18And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Amen, thats the reason for the great commission, its for in the gathering in of the seed of Abraham in all Nations, according to God's promise Gen 17:5

5Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

beloved57
January 7th, 2011, 02:37 PM
The next promise in Ezk 37:22 following that God will gather the children of Israel from among the heathen is this:

22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel;

Notice, the I will part ! That means God is Sovereign and He is doing this Himself..

The elect, who had been scattered throughout the world are become one Nation ! 1 Pet 2:9-10

9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

10Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

The psalmest says Ps 33:12

Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD; and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance.

The One Nation is One Body Eph 3:6

6That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Eph 4:4

4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

So given this biblical evidence, the Believer in Christ can fit the description of being made into one Nation !

beloved57
January 8th, 2011, 05:35 AM
The Next promise is Ezk 37:22

22And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.



There will be one King over them. David is a type of Christ, who sits on the Throne of David. It is not David himself as the King over them ! But it is Christ that is the One King over them. He is also the One Shepherd over them, and not David, for Christ is the One Shepherd Isa 40:10

10Behold, the Lord GOD will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.

11He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.

Jn 10:16

16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Again, this can and does apply to All the seed of Abraham that belongs to Christ Gal 3:29

29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

You see Abraham's seed and the children of Israel are the same..

beloved57
January 8th, 2011, 09:43 AM
The Next promise is this :

Ezk 37:23

23Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

God has promised to cleanse them from their Transgressions. God has cleansed His People by the Blood of the Lamb, all for whom He died has been declared righteous through Him, and His blood cleaseth us of all sin to the Glory of God..

Scriptures to confirm Heb 1:3

3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

Rev 1:5

5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Its a Covenant blessing through His covenant blood Heb 8:12

12For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

So, yes this promise does apply to Israel, the seed of Abraham, who belong to Christ Gal 3:29

29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

beloved57
January 10th, 2011, 01:14 AM
The next promise in the prophecy is that they shall be my people and I will be their God..

This is applied here Rom 9:24-26

24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

This is the call of the Gentiles into Covenant Israel, the Church Eph 3:6

6That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Eph 2:11-13

11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

also 1 Pet 2:10

10Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

This too is another promise of the New Covenant which Christ is the Mediator of unto all whom He shed His blood for Heb 8:10

10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

So this Promise can be applied to the Church, the believers in Christ, the Israel of God, the spiritual seed of Abraham Gal 3:29

29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed[Israel], and heirs according to the promise.

beloved57
January 10th, 2011, 12:53 PM
Ezk 37:25

25And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

What Land is this ? Is this the piece of dirt over in the middle east ? No its not. This is the land that God promised Abraham of which Isaac and Jacob were heirs of the same promise !

Heb 11:8-10

8By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

9By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

10For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

The Land these Heirs looked for was a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God, not men..

Also about this land we read in Heb 11:13-16

13These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off[by Faith], and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

14For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.

15And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

16But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

The Land was a heavenly Land, not of this earth..It was the possession of the everlasting Canaan Gen 17:8

8And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

This is the Eternal state here Matt 8:11


11And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.


Yes, the Land is the Kingdom of heaven. Many from the east and west shall sit down with them. Thats because they too shall be gathered from the east and the west as predicted here:

Ezk 37:21

21And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

Every side denotes the east and the west too..

Isa 43:5

Fear not: for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west;

Gal 3:29

29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Those who belong to Christ are heirs of the same promise that Abraham, Issac and Jacob was here Heb 11:9

9By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

The Land is the Kingdom of Heaven, not palestine in the middle east..

Now can this apply to believers in Christ, the seed of Abraham ? Yes it can and it does..

beloved57
January 10th, 2011, 08:45 PM
God will dwell in their midst forever !

Ezk 37:28

28And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

1 Thess 4:17


17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Rev 21:23

And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

All that has been prophesied in Ezk 37 :21ff can be fulfilled in all believers in Christ..The Church, The seed of Abraham..

beloved57
January 11th, 2011, 10:02 AM
I have just shown how a OT Prophecy pertaining to the children of Israel in ezk 37, can and does apply to the Church, The Spiritual seed of Abraham, which is Israel. The Seed of Abraham is another way of saying Israel isa 41:8

But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.

And both Christ Gal 3:16 and believers Gal 3:29 are called the seed of Abraham, so both are Israel..

I will now by the grace of God show forth, even though its not understood by the masses in organized religion today, that the Church is one continuity in the OT and NT, that the NT Church is the Fulfillment of the Old Testament Prophecy concerning Israel [seed of Abraham]; So the promises concerning the promised Kingdom/land is to be understood spiritually and not naturally..

Peter assures us the prophecies of old was concerning the grace that would be unto us the Church, even though the name Israel was in used.. 1 pet 1:10

Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

The prophets just saw the grace coming to Israel, Gods chosen covenant people..which it did, but it was just not to ethnic jews, but to jews and gentiles in Christ...

beloved57
January 11th, 2011, 03:51 PM
Paul teaches in the book of Galatians the only True seed of Abraham [Israel], His True Heirs of the Abrahamic Covenant blessings and promises are True Believers, whether jew or gentile Gal 3:7

7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. [see Rom 4:16] Gentiles who believe are the True seed of Abraham and Heirs of Promise.

Abraham is the Father of God's People not because of being their biological ancestor, as the ethnic jews think, and many others as well but because He has a spiritual family given him of Faith [see Rom 4:16] This verse certainly proves that the gentiles as well as some ethnic jews are Abraham's seed of promise. So He [ Abraham] has been given by God, a spiritual family [ a type of Christ] who follow in His Faithful footsteps Rom 4:12

12And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

This Truth also shows the connection of the Church [spiritual seed] transitioning from the OT to the NT, Abraham's spiritual seed being the bridge and foundation.

beloved57
January 12th, 2011, 07:30 AM
So Paul shows in Galatians that the seed of Abraham is Christ Gal 3:16

16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

And Christ is the Head of the Church Eph 5:23

For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the Saviour of the body.

So the seed of Abraham is the Head of the Church, if they be the same Christ !!

And they who are Christ's [ to the exclusion of all others] are Abraham's seed and Heirs according to promise Gal 3:29


29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Question, How can Abraham not be of the Church when His seed is the Head of the Church ? And if Abraham is of the Church of which His seed is the Head of [Christ], then how could it [The Church] not existed in the OT when Abraham existed ?

The seed of Abraham Christ does away with all physical and national barriers, for their is neither jew or gentile, bond nor free, neither male or female, for all are one in Christ Abraham's seed !

Gal 3:28

28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

beloved57
January 14th, 2011, 12:57 AM
Gal 3:23

23But before faith came, we[The Church] were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwords be revealed.

This verse proves that the church existed in the OT, for Paul identified himself with those elect jews who were kept under the tutelage of the law until N.T Faith came, brought in and established by the Death, Burial, and Resurrection of Christ. The Church under the OT was under many legal restraints of administration Col 1:21

21(Touch not; taste not; handle not);

Until the Time of Gospel Faith, which was the time when the fulfillment of the promise in Christ should set free the children of God from all earthly and legal obligations, and set free from the Old Covenant Economy, to serve God in Spirit and in Truth.

But after Faith has come, we [The Church] are no longer under a school master Gal 3:25

25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Which meant the passage of the church from the mosaic law to the New Covenant economy Jn 1:16-17


16And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

17For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Paul had not been speaking of a individual experience [ though applicable] of coming to Faith in Christ, but a transition in sacred history where the regime of law was superseded by the regime of Faith, the school master handed off to Christ, and the Church transitioned from infancy and minority to Adulthood..

beloved57
January 14th, 2011, 07:37 PM
For those who do not realize that Israel and the Church are the same, they are showing a lack of understanding that Christ and the Church are the sum and substance of the O T Prophecy. Christ is in all the scripture Lk 24:44,47

And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

He and His People, believers in Him, are the terminus of prophetic scripture.

The Nation of Israel had no other purpose for existence apart from being a type preparing the way for the New Covenant People of God of whom the end of the ages hath come 1 Cor 10:11


11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples [a type]: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

And without whom the OT Saints of old could not be perfected Heb 11:40

40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Which again solidifies that the OT Saints are One Church with the NT Saints, for this is readily perceived with the Transfer to both jew and gentile the names and privileges originally attributed to National Israel i.e Rom 1:6-7

6Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

7To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Rom 9:24-26

24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

Also 1 Pet 2:9-10

9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

10Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

These scriptures, duly considered, with the blessing of the Lord, can be seen to unite or to recognize the union of the OT Saints with NT Saints..

Ps82
January 14th, 2011, 08:38 PM
Hi Beloved,
If this is what you are trying to tell us:
Israel was chosen as a foreshadow of things to come regarding the eternal kingdom ... then how can anyone argue with you?

If you are saying that the LORD has now established one tree/one church made up of believers from among literal national Israel and the believers from among the nations ...then how can anyone argue with you?

I find what you are sharing very interesting and haven't found anything to debate yet. However, I'm only on post 71...

I think one of my favorite OT verses also fits what you are trying to say about the peoples coming out of the nations that have accepted our Savior as Lord over them:
Psalm 82:8
Arise, O God, judge the earth and inherit the nations.

Our risen Lord Jesus will return to judge among the peoples of all the earth ... and will select his people and inherit the nations... not just physical Israel ... but the Israel found IN CHRIST.

However, there is a part of me that says that the LORD is not finished with his using physical Israel/Jews ... for I feel that they are still used by him as a foreshadow of what God means to fulfill before he returns.

What do you think about that?

beloved57
January 15th, 2011, 06:23 PM
That Israel and the Church are the same and are unified from the OT to the NT is seen in the Gospel and its proclamation.

The Church’s oneness Is Taught By The Gospel Promises To The Patriarchs OR Father's, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob !

That promise was made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Genesis 22:18 contains it as well as other parts of the Old Testament. “And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed: because thou hast obeyed My voice.”

Now that is a gospel promise; let me ask you to look at Galatians 3:8, “The scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.”

This same promise that Paul says belonged to the gentiles Justification, peter preaches it to the jews:

in Acts 3:25, 26, said to the Jews, “Ye are the children of the prophets. and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. Unto you first God, having raised up His Son Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.”

Of course Peter did not at this time realize that gentiles were included in those promises and were also the Children of the Prophets. For Abraham was a Prophet according to gen 20:7

Now therefore restore the man [Abraham] his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for thee, and thou shalt live: and if thou restore her not, know thou that thou shalt surely die, thou, and all that are thine.

And Believers in Christ are Children of Abraham Gal 3 :7,29

7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.


29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed or children, and heirs according to the promise.

Jew of Gentile, race does not matter, if we are of Faith the same are children of Abraham..

So unknowingly peter in Acts 3 :25-26 was speaking about some gentiles to..

And of course Paul made it clear in Gal 3:8

So, NT Believers are The Children of the Patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and if we NT Believers are the Church of Christ, why not our Fathers ?

We know Abraham believed in Christ from this scripture, for Jesus said of him Jn 8:56

Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

No doubt Jesus had been revealed to Him as His righteousness, and of His seed's righteousness as well !

For certainly, if we the Children have Christ as our righteousness, then He must have been our Fathers righteousness. For the Children of Abraham, those God would justify by Faith Gal 3:8, He must have Justified their Father Abraham by Faith, and Christ was that seed to whom all the blessings of Justification would come by..

And of Abraham's natural Children, Isaac was included, but Ishmael was rejected, Jacob was included, but Esau was rejected in blessing of Justification.

So Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were believers in Christ ! And as Believers are Children of Abraham, so too of Isaac and Jacob.

The great deceiver, has blinded many to this Truth..

Ps82
January 15th, 2011, 10:52 PM
That Israel and the Church are the same and are unified from the OT to the NT is seen in the Gospel and its proclamation.

The Church’s oneness Is Taught By The Gospel Promises To The Patriarchs OR Father's, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob !

That promise was made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Genesis 22:18 contains it as well as other parts of the Old Testament. “And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed: because thou hast obeyed My voice.”

Now that is a gospel promise; let me ask you to look at Galatians 3:8, “The scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.”

This same promise that Paul says belonged to the gentiles Justification, peter preaches it to the jews:

in Acts 3:25, 26, said to the Jews, “Ye are the children of the prophets. and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. Unto you first God, having raised up His Son Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.”

Of course Peter did not at this time realize that gentiles were included in those promises and were also the Children of the Prophets. For Abraham was a Prophet according to gen 20:7

Now therefore restore the man [Abraham] his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for thee, and thou shalt live: and if thou restore her not, know thou that thou shalt surely die, thou, and all that are thine.

And Believers in Christ are Children of Abraham gal 3 :

7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.


29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed or children, and heirs according to the promise.

Jew of Gentile, race does not matter, if we are of Faith the same are children of Abraham..

So unknowingly peter in acts 3 :25-26 was speaking about some gentiles to..

And of course Paul made it clear in Gal 3:8..

So, NT Believers are The Children of the Patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and if we NT Believers are the Church of Christ, why not our Fathers ?

We know Abraham believed in Christ from this scripture, for Jesus said of him Jn 8:56

Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

No doubt Jesus had been revealed to Him as His righteousness, and of His seed's righteousness as well !

For certainly, if we the Children have Christ as our righteousness, then He must have been our Fathers righteousness. For the Children of Abraham, those God would justify by Faith gal 3:8, He must have Justified their Father Abraham by Faith, and Christ was that seed to whom all the blessings of Justification would come by..

And of Abraham's natural Children, Isaac was included, but Ishmael was rejected, Jacob was included, but Esau was rejected in blessing of Justification.

So Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were believers in Christ ! And as Believers are Children of Abraham, so too of Isaac and Jacob.

The great deceiver, has blinded many to this Truth..

Hi beloved,
I accept your conclusions. I also believe that I have found the OT event where the identity and the work of the promised divine Messiah was revealed to Abraham.

The event is found in Genesis 14 and especially in Genesis 15:1 KJV

Abram had just successfully rescued Lot from the enemies of Sodom and Gomorrah. Melchizedik had come unto him and they partook of the sacraments of bread and wine and then Melchizekik blessed Abram.

After these things the LORD God came to Abram in a vision and
clearly explained the truth about the connection between Abram and Himself. He told Abram that HE was Abram shield and that HE was also Abram's exceeding great reward.

IOW, God was Abram present protector, but was also to be the future exceeding great reward.

quote:
... the Word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision saying, "Fear not, Abram. I AM thy shield, and (I AM) thy, exceeding great reward.


Abram saw the DAY of our promised Lord Jesus ... and was glad of it!

Later, in John 1:1 we are also told that Jesus was the WORD of God ... who WAS God and who was WITH God ... who had finally come.

Our Lord Jesus was not only The WORD of God, who came to Abram ... but our Lord Jesus was also God - the promised great reward of Abram, who had finally arrived.

QUESTION:
How do I know that Abram immediately understood that this exceeding great reward was to come to him as a future descendant?

Ans: Because Abram immediately asked the LORD God how this (exceeding great reward) could happen since he was obviously childless.

After that the LORD told him that an heir would come forth to him out of his own bowels... and that this son (Isaac) would become the child of the promise. This is why tracing genealogy from Isaac was so important. The exceeding great reward would be a descendant of Isaac.
Abram - comprehended it and was glad of it!

This is exactly what Jesus was referring to when he said this to the religious leaders of his day.
Abram got it! But those religious me did not.

I totally agree with what you said here:

So Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were believers in Christ ! And as Believers are Children of Abraham, so too of Isaac and Jacob.

beloved57
January 17th, 2011, 01:39 AM
The Church’s Unity Is seen By A Prophecy in Isaiah

The Father said to Christ, “It is a light thing that Thou shouldest be My servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel;

I will also give Thee for a light to the Gentiles, that Thou mayest be My salvation unto the end of the earth” (Isaiah 49:6). In other words, it was God’s purpose that Christ, the Messiah, should not only save the preserved of Israel, but that He should be the Saviour of the Gentiles to the ends of the earth.

But no man is saved apart from faith in Christ. When a Jew or a Gentile believes in Christ, he becomes manifestly a member of Abraham’s spiritual family and a member of the Household of God, and therefore a member of the one family in heaven and in earth

Paul, of the Church, was an extension of Christ to fulfill this Purpose..acts 13:47

For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

Remember this command was given to Christ the servant in Isa 49:6..

The Gentiles are those in the Nations that Abraham was made a Father to in Gen 17:


5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

Ps82
January 17th, 2011, 09:59 AM
Well, beloved, you could at least speak to me some time ... Say hi or I read your post, and it was interesting ... or something.
Now, please don't just write the word 'SOMETHING.'
Have a good day.

beloved57
January 18th, 2011, 10:04 AM
Did Paul spiritualize scripture ?

One of the reasons for the confusion and error of not realizing the Church and Israel are the same people just under a different economy, is because its ignored how Paul spiritualized things in the OT to give their application and meaning into the NT which He served, for He was a Minister of the New Testament and in being so a Minister to the gentiles .

2 Cor 3:6

Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Rom 15:16

That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

Yes, its the same ministry..

The New Covenant must be applied to the gentiles, this same one promised to Israel here Jer 31:31

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Now lets observe how Paul spiritualized scripture in the OT to give us to know that the OT in general was written with a underlying spiritual relevance not comprehended during the OT times but was to be revealed in the NT times 1 Pet 1:10-12


10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.


Now lets look at an instance of how Paul spiritualized events in the OT ! 1 Cor 10:1-4,11

1Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

3And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

11Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

Now think about what Paul has just stated here in this passage ! Spiritual food, drink, rock and Christ, now where in the written account of the Exodus is any of this mentioned ? For in the literal account we read of physical manna, water from a physical rock ! We observe the people of Israel passing through the red sea and a cloud by day and pillar by night, but there is no mention of baptism as Paul states. The point here is that the Apostle is demonstrating the proper way to interpret the OT ! Not only did the story literally happen in the OT but it had a higher and spiritual meaning which the Holy Spirit intended for it to have..Thats why Paul says to this same church earlier about the things he spake to them this:

1 Cor 2:12-13

12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Hence, spiritual food, spiritual drink, spiritual rock can mean a spiritual Israel The Church..

beloved57
January 19th, 2011, 08:19 AM
We have seen that Paul spiritualized the OT in 1 !or 10, and we will look at another passage in Galatians where he does it again Gal 4:21-31

21Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

22For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

23But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

24Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

25For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

26But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

27For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

28Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

29But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

30Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

31So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Notice vs 24, which things [ OT History] an allegory ! The word is the greek word allēgoreō:

) to speak allegorically or in a figure

Remember when Paul wrote that Adam was a figure of Him to come, Christ Rom 5:14

Vines Dictionary states about the word allegory:


translated in Gal 4:24 "contain an allegory" (AV, "are an allegory"), formed from allos, "other," and agoreuo, "to speak in a place of assembly" (agora, "the market-place"), came to signify "to speak," not according to the primary sense of the word, but so that the facts stated are applied to illustrate principles. The "allegorical" meaning does not do away with the literal meaning of the narrative. There may be more than one "allegorical" meaning though, of course, only one literal meaning. Scripture histories represent or embody spiritual principles, and these are ascertained, not by the play of the imagination, but by the rightful application of the doctrines of Scripture.

Paul in this passage again spiritualized this history in the OT. Where can we read in genesis that Hagar is a Covenant or Mt Sinai ? What about Sarah being the New Covenant and is Mt Zion ? The fact is, it doesn't, but the inspired Apostle clearly tells us these things are true. Now the Church is built upon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets with Christ being the Chief cornerstone.. Eph 2:20

20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

BTW this scripture proves the Oneness of the Church and Christ was and is the Head of the OT Prophets as He is the Head of the Apostles..for He is the Chief cornerstone..

And this being the case, we should give heed to this type of interpretation by the Apostle who was made so by the Sovereign Will of God as per 2 Tim 1:1

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,

Whats being seen here is that many of the OT events had a double meaning, the obvious literal and the higher, hidden, and spiritual meaning..

The Spiritual meaning however can only be given by the Holy Ghost of God 1 Cor 2:12-14

12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

A casual reading of the Literal history of the OT cannot reveal its higher and spiritual intent by God..

beloved57
January 20th, 2011, 10:16 AM
From our previous witness we showed how the inspired Paul spiritualized OT History in divulging that God had more than one meaning. For it is hard to miss this pattern, for there was an obvious literal, natural meaning.

This is premised on a biblical order that God has established and maintained throughout world history, that is the natural first, then the spiritual 1 Cor 15:46

46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

And no, it does not revert back to natural as some erroneously teach..

So, God's People Israel takes on two forms, first Natural Israel and afterward Spiritual Israel..

Natural Israel was the Church in the wilderness Acts 7:38

This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sinai, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

And we have the Spiritual Church Israel in the wilderness Rev 12:13-14

13And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

14And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

The women here is the Church, the remnant of the seed of the women which was Christ..

17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ is the Head of the Church Eph 5:23

For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the Saviour of the body.

Col 1:24

Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

And so this method as per 1 Cor 15:45 The natural then the spiritual is how Paul understands the OT scripture, this cannot be denied.

Paul speaks of the First and Natural Adam and the second and Spiritual Adam 1 Cor 15:45,47or who we know is the Lord Jesus Christ.

So the First Adam a very real and natural person whose life is recorded in the OT scripture, is a representative of a Truth greater than he, there was something about him more deeper and spiritual, this is again alluded to by Paul here Eph 5:31-32


31For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

32This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Again Paul points this out in Rom 5:14


14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

However, by mere casual reading of the scripture, these deeper sublime truths would have not been revealed, but God raised up Paul for that purpose, and of course the Holy Spirit teaches these things through Him..

I am here to tell you today, the natural Israel was merely a type a figure, the natural of the Spiritual Israel, the Church, God's Heavenly People..

Ps82
January 20th, 2011, 11:34 AM
Are you publishing your first book here on TOL ... or are you wanting a discussion?

beloved57
January 21st, 2011, 05:26 PM
What has been set forth is of extreme importance in understanding OT scripture and how anointed , God ordained men like Paul explains it. The stories, ordinances , statues and covenants and people and things associated there with all have a deeper and spiritual meaning that will be grasped by the spiritually taught. The feast of the passover had a deeper spiritual meaning 1 Cor 5:7

7Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

The us, the Spiritual Israel..

Other things like the altar, the priesthood, the sacrifices, laver and incense and other items under the OT all have a deeper spiritual meaning that is to be conveyed to God's Covenant People living under the NT..

Lets look at some examples : The altar Ex 27:1

1And thou shalt make an altar of shittim wood, five cubits long, and five cubits broad; the altar shall be foursquare: and the height thereof shall be three cubits.

This was a type and prefigured the spiritual altar of the New Covenant Heb 13:10

10We have an altar[Christ], whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.

The Laver of washing Ex 30:18-21


18Thou shalt also make a laver of brass, and his foot also of brass, to wash withal: and thou shalt put it between the tabernacle of the congregation and the altar, and thou shalt put water therein.

19For Aaron and his sons shall wash their hands and their feet thereat:

20When they go into the tabernacle of the congregation, they shall wash with water, that they die not; or when they come near to the altar to minister, to burn offering made by fire unto the LORD:

21So they shall wash their hands and their feet, that they die not: and it shall be a statute for ever to them, even to him and to his seed throughout their generations.

The laver typifies the once and for all washing of regeneration as well as the continual washing or cleansing in our daily lives from the defilement of sin..

I of course could go on, but the point is to show that OT history typifies and finds it's fulfillment in the NT, that goes for the People as well..

beloved57
January 22nd, 2011, 12:58 PM
Rom 9:6-8

6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Israel, the Children of Promise ! There was a Children of Israel according to the flesh, and a children of Israel according to to Promise. Now to which Israel did God make the Promises to ? The Children of Israel according to the flesh or according to Promise, and without hesitation I answer the Israel, the Children of Promise.

How do we discern discern which is which ? Lets seek the scripture to find a answer. As stated in Rom 9:6, Paul see's two Israel's, vs 7 seeds of Abraham, vs 8 Children of Abraham; Now within the scope of being children of Abraham, it could happen one of two ways, according to the flesh or according to promise.

beloved57
January 25th, 2011, 11:15 AM
How do we discern discern which is which ? Lets seek the scripture to find a answer. As stated in Rom 9:6, Paul see's two Israel's, vs 7 seeds of Abraham, vs 8 Children of Abraham; Now within the scope of being children of Abraham, it could happen one of two ways, according to the flesh or according to promise.

The Two Israels in vs 6 are of the flesh or of the promise [the spirit]

Now Abraham had Two Sons, Before Issac was Ishmael. Ishmael can trace His natural [flesh] descent back to Abraham [as can natural Israel] for Jesus speaking to them [natural jews] says:

Jn 8:37

37I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

Yet Ishmael was not counted as a Heir of Promise Gal 4:30


30Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. see Rom 9:8

In fact in Gal 4:22ff, the Apostle identifies natural Israel according to the flesh as Ishmael and his mother hagar, they representing that Israel constituted at Mt Sinai :


24Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

25For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

And Identifies Isaac as as from the freewoman, born of promise to Abraham.

Ishmael was born by the flesh to Abraham [in unbelief], But Isaac was born by the power of God's word of Promise to Abraham.

You see Isaac was conceived and brought forth by the direct activity of God, Sarah having been hopelessly barren, and Abraham his Father was past the years of natural procreation ability [see Gen 17:17], but nevertheless God made a promise too them to give them a Son, A Heir. It was the power of that promise that brought forth Isaac in the womb, and likewise, its the sovereign power of God that gives being to the Children of Promise, which are born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of men, but of God Jn 1:13 [as Isaac] and thusly Isaac is a type or figure for the True Seed of Abraham, the Israel of Promise, born of the Holy Spirit of promise..even Isaac was born after the Spirit Gal 4:29

But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after [or according to] the Spirit, even so it is now.

Hence all the jews in the OT that were born after[or according to] the Spirit was the True Israel, the True olive Tree..

beloved57
January 26th, 2011, 11:41 AM
But Paul no doubt met with opposition and objection, that all of Isaac's natural descendants are of the Promise ! So Paul goes on to speak of his natural descendants, per Jacob and Esau, who where both born of Isaac and Rebekah Rom 9:10-13


10And not only this; but when Rebbecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.


So what Paul is doing is abolishing the false idea that the natural descendants determines whether or not one is included in the Israel of God or Promise. For it can be said of both Ishmael and Esau that they can be traced back to the natural lineage of Abraham, they are children of the flesh, however both were rejected from being heirs of promise or Israel of promise ! You see Abraham was given a seed born after the Spirit, that seed is Israel, but it has nothing to do with His natural children, although some of them have been grafted into that spiritual Israel, as even some gentiles as well..

Folks it is those of Faith [ A Spiritual Fruit see Gal 5:22] that belong to Israel of promise to which pertains the promises Gal 3:7


7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham=[Israel].

And that regardless of ethnicity, without Faith from being born of the Spirit, all of Abraham's physical descendants are of the seed of satan[gentiles too], with no distinction between them and the offspring of Ishmael or Esau, or the sons of ketruah, Abraham's second wife, and as such they have no right or claim to any of God's gracious covenant of promises, nor to be regarded as Israel of promise, Rev 3:9

9Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

No doubt these where physical jews, but as Jesus told them once before Jn 8:44

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.

beloved57
February 5th, 2011, 12:26 PM
Rom 2:29 ;Rom 9:6,8

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

What seed ? The Children of the promise are the seed of Israel !

The seed of Israel that shall be Justified per Isa 45:25

In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

That seed of Israel is the same as the seed of Abraham in Gal 3:29



29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed [Israel], and heirs according to the promise.

That Israel is the Church ! Which belongs to Christ..To deny this is to deny scripture and call God a Liar..

Now even though they are ignored or twisted, there are many scriptures in the NT where OT Prophecies regarding Israel's restoration or regathering are made to be realized in the Church, the One Christ builds Matt 16:18


18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

The greek word for build is Oikodomeo and means:

to build a house, erect a building

a) to build (up from the foundation)

b) to restore by building, to rebuild, repair

Notice He said I will be building MY Church, the Church of Me, in other words, it was presently His Church, that He would be building upon, for He himself is the foundation, so if He existed then and now, then so did His Church..The building material is but part of and erected from the foundation, Now who is the foundation ?

1 Cor 3:11

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

So this points to the Church as being the True Israel of God, the body of Him who is the True Israel of God, the seed of Abraham, Christ.

Now notice something, Who is the seed of Abraham to whom the promises of God were made ? Lets look at Gal 3:16


16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made.He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ

Now, none but a fool would deny that Christ is the seed of Abraham from this scripture. Now Who is the Head of the Church, the Body ? Lets read here Eph 5:23

For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the Saviour of the body.

Now, is this the same Christ which is the seed of Abraham in Gal 3:16 ?

If it is, then whats to keep us from saying that the seed of Abraham is the Head of the Church ?

Did this Seed of Abraham exist in the OT ?

And this True Israel is made up of both believing Gentiles and believing Jews, for this is the Israel that is of Abraham's Faith, and not of His blood..hence the differences outlined here by Paul Rom 9:6-8


6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

The Children of Faith are the True Children of God as per Gal 3:26

For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were True Israel, Children of God, by Faith in Christ, not because of their blood or Ethnicity..Now there Faith in Christ constituted them the seed of Abraham as per Gal 3:29

29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

So from the Faith perspective, Did Christ Church, of which He is the Head of as the seed of Abraham, did it exist in the OT..

Did Abraham Isaac, and Jacob believe in or Have Faith in a Living Christ ?

beloved57
February 7th, 2011, 06:18 AM
Are made to be realized in the Church !

Now even though they are ignored or twisted, there are many scriptures in the NT where OT Prophecies regarding Israel's restoration or regathering are made to be realized in the Church.

The Church has not replaced Israel, but is the Clarification of who Israel [of God] has always been, never a Physical People, however comprised of spiritually reborn physical people.

The Israel of God which was comprised in the OT with ethnic jews who had been circumcised in their hearts [born again] is now in the NT comprised of both circumcised in heart jews and gentiles [Phil 3:3 & Rom 2:29] or as another way Paul puts it the Olive Tree , which stands for the True Israel of God, which is now comprised of born again Natural Jews [branches] and Unnatural Branches Gentiles, but in any case believing Branches..

With that in Mind we can begin to understand why prophecies and promises in the OT directed to Israel are fulfilled and applied to the Church..

We will look at a couple of Illustrations for evidence of the same.

In Acts 15:14-18 James interprets the prophecy of Amos 9:11-12, which is the rebuilding of Davids Tabernacle as finding its fulfillment in the calling out of the Gentiles a people for His names sake in a expanding formation of the Church, Christ is building His Church as the Son of David..

This is another way of saying gentiles being grafted into the Olive Tree of Rom 11:17

beloved57
February 9th, 2011, 11:00 AM
The Preeminence of the Church !

1 Cor 3:21-23


21Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are your's;

22Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are your's;

23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

All things are yours Paul writes to the Church, so if by chance dispensationalism was true [which it is not] then the Church would reign over the ethnic jews, for the Church has a much higher position of Authority than the ethnic jews would, and the earthly millennium jews would belong to the Church, because of Her Union with Christ..

Notice Paul says to the Church as to what is Hers, things to come so if there is a future earthly millennium, it belongs to the Church...

beloved57
February 9th, 2011, 11:31 AM
Are made to be realized in the Church ! cont

Another OT Prophecy about Israel finds its application to the Church by the inspired Apostle :

In Romans 9:25-26:


25As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

The Apostle is quoting scripture from Hosea 1:10

10Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

Hos 2:23

23And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.

These were actually being addressed to the Ten Apostate Northern tribes of Israel before the Assyrian captivity in 722 bc, for the rebellious manner of God's people [not my people / not beloved] and predicting her future restoration [my people/beloved/ sons of the Living God].

And Paul under the direction of the Holy Ghost applies these to the calling or salvation of the elect gentiles, the church. Paul here without hesitation takes the two prophecies of Hosea regarding the future salvation of Israel and applies them to the Church, which consists of both the called jews and gentiles [rom 9:24], they both become the People of God Covenant Israel.

Again the grafting in of the gentiles into the Olive Tree is being demonstrated, or the making of one new Man of Eph 2:12-19

12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

Now, who were the Saints and Household of God in the OT under the Old Covenant People ? Was it not Israel ?

beloved57
February 11th, 2011, 10:25 AM
Are made to be realized in the Church ! cont

So Paul has shown how the prophecies of Hosea are fulfilled in the Church, the one Christ is building Matt 16:18. Many will scream that this is spiritualized hermeneutics, well if it is, so be it, for paul did it, an authorized messenger of Christ..

Thats exactly what the NT does to the OT predictions, with this, the OT promises to Israel [The People not the Nation ] their restoration to God is being fulfilled in the salvation or conversion of believers in Christ, both of jews and gentiles in the church age, the Church Eph 2. The calling out of the gentiles from every tribe, tongue, people and nation is the prophesied restoration of Israel, the inclusion of Abraham's Gentile seed from among the Nations as per Gen 17:5, and hence the church is the continuation and perfection of Israels believing remnant Heb 11:40

God having provided some better thing for us, that they[OT Saints] without us[NT Saints] should not be made perfect.

beloved57
February 12th, 2011, 06:31 PM
Are made to be realized in the Church ! cont

John in Rev 2:17 which reads:


17He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Is promising to the church which are overcomer's a new name. This is a clear reference to the prediction or prophecy in Isa 62:2

2And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name.

Also vs Isa 65:15

15And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:

Israels future royal status and restoration to God, are being here applied to the Church, individual members of it..

beloved57
February 16th, 2011, 11:24 AM
Rev 3:9

9Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Now this verse is enlightening, if we have eyes to see, Jesus assures the church in Philadelphia what He will make these pretended jews do, and it does not consult their so called freewill !

There are two good points here being made, Jesus says about those "who say they are jews, but lie [also see Rev 2:9] It would appear that in one sense these people are jews, the physical descendants of the Patriarchs, who met in the synagouges to worship, remember Jesus addressed a similar crowd during His ministry Jn 8:37, but in another sense, inwardly and spiritually they are not jews, not believers in The True Messiah, and perhaps persecutors of those who do believe in Him as per 1 Thess 2:13-15.

These Jews are said instead to be the synagogue of satan. True Jews belong to Christ, the seed of Abraham [see Gal 3:29] for you see paul writes:

Rom 2:28-29


28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

The word jew here is the greek word Ioudaios and its used in this sense:

the word is used of ideal Jews, i.e., Jews in spiritual reality, believers, whether Jews or Gentiles by natural birth.

This Judaism is of the heart, and it cannot be limited to believing jews but does graft in believing gentiles, this clear from Paul's statement to the Philippians Phil 3:3


3For we [B]are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

Worshiping God in Spirit and rejoicing in Christ Jesus is not limited to ethnic jews.. So John in writing Rev 3:9 is giving us to understand that Jesus distinguishes between literal jews, and spiritual jews or Spiritual Israel, the Spiritual seed of Abraham. Thats why paul also writes Rom 9:6

6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

beloved57
February 18th, 2011, 06:00 PM
Continuing from previous post as we look at how some OT predictions regarding God's Covenant People Israel, are Being applied to the NT Church, proving the Church existed in the OT, and that Israel, the True one, is the Church, just having been expanded to include some gentiles.

We see how Rev 3:9 has its roots in OT prophecy , Isa 60:14

14The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee; The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.

Isa 45:14

14Thus saith the LORD, The labour of Egypt, and merchandise of Ethiopia and of the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come over unto thee, and they shall be thine: they shall come after thee; in chains they shall come over, and they shall fall down unto thee, they shall make supplication unto thee, saying, Surely God is in thee; and there is none else, there is no God.

Isa 49:23

23And kings shall be thy nursing fathers, and their queens thy nursing mothers: they shall bow down to thee with their face toward the earth, and lick up the dust of thy feet; and thou shalt know that I am the LORD: for they shall not be ashamed that wait for me.

Now in all these scriptures, its the gentiles who are to bow before Israel, whereas in Rev 3:9 its jews who will bow before the gentile Church

Interestingly in Isa 60:14 they [the gentiles] will call them [Jews] the city of the Lord, the Zion of the Holy One of Israel ! Is not that what we see in Rev 3:12

12Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

And the title Jesus identifies Himself with to the Church of Philadelphia is the Holy One hence the link with Isa 60 !

The words 'They will know that I have loved thee " can be compared to Isa 43:4

4Since thou wast precious in my sight, thou hast been honourable, and I have loved thee: therefore will I give men for thee, and people for thy life.

This gives us to understand, that John saw in the Church the realization and fulfillment of the Isaiah prophecies..

beloved57
February 24th, 2011, 11:50 AM
We are demonstrating how the promises to Israel are being applied to the Church, hence linking them as the same..

Rev 7:15 states of the saints in The Heavenly Temple :


15Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

This scripture clearly seems to be a reference to Ezk 37:26-28


26Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

27My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

28And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.


This connection appears to be true when we also look at Rev 21:3

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. cp with vs 27 of ezk 37

And this is followed by Rev 21:4,6

4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

6And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

By the same OT references found Rev 7:16-17

16They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

17For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

So we have the innumerable multitude of the Church, redeemed by the Blood, as being the fulfillment of a Prophecy regarding Israel's latter day restoration, we have an application of ezk 37:27 to the redeemed Church.

Rev 7:16 is a fulfillment of Isa 49:10

10They shall not hunger nor thirst; neither shall the heat nor sun smite them: for he that hath mercy on them shall lead them, even by the springs of water shall he guide them.

Also another prophetic promise to Israel's restoration is applied to the church i.e Isa 25:8

8He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.


Rev 7:17

17For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

All these are strong scriptural support for the Redeemed Church being the restored Israel..

Jacob
February 24th, 2011, 11:55 AM
Luke 2:11 for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.

beloved57
February 26th, 2011, 10:42 PM
The book of revelation is a good book to show the connection of Israel and the Church, that the promises to Israel in the OT are fulfilled by the Jew and Gentile Church ..

In Rev 21:14


14And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

This is the wall of the city of the New Jerusalem, the city Abraham hoped for Heb 11:10

10For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

and had Twelve foundation stones, on which were written the names of the Twelve Apostles.

And in vs 12 it speaks of the Twelve Gates :

12And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

The number Twenty Four, which is the total of the Twelve Tribes and the Twelve Apostles, This number mentioned earlier in Rev 4:4


4And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

This could be alluding to Davids Kingdom organization of the Temple servants into 24 orders of Priest see 1 Chron 24:3-19, 24 Levitical gatekeepers 26:17-19; and 24 orders of priest 25:6-31

The Prophesied City Temple structure in Ezk 40-48 finds it's fulfillment in the Twelve Tribe/ Twelve Apostle City Temple in Rev 21, all the redeemed Church of God..

beloved57
March 13th, 2011, 05:48 PM
Is there a future in God's Purpose for the People Israel ? Most certainly Yes ! What about National Israel ? Sorry No, remember Paul stated Rom 9:6

6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Has not God already fulfilled His Promise to that Nation ? Those called dispensationalist and premillenialist teach and believe [falsely] that God is yet to fulfill promises to this Nation in a coming 1000 yr Millennium Kingdom.

Now the best way to begin to understand these things is by examining the promises made to Abraham, who is the Father of His Natural descendants of the Flesh [National Israel] and even more importantly the Father of His Spiritual Descendants, those that Believe ! Notice Rom 4:11

And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

This is extremely important, because what many fail to realize is that God promised Abraham a believing seed as well as a physical seed.

Now are there promises made to Abraham that are fulfilled, and yet to be fulfilled ? As we look at the promises made to Him, we will notice two types, one which includes Abraham personally in the promise, as well as a promise that does not .

Lets look at this one Gen 12:6-7



6 And Abram passed through the land unto the place of Sichem, unto the plain of Moreh. And the Canaanite was then in the land.

7 And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.

If noticed, this promise did not include Abram, but His seed, and it was not stipulated how long His seed would have this Land. This promise was made again Gen 15:18-21

18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

19 The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,

20 And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims,

21 And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.

And yet Again Abram is not included as a recipient of this land, and this is important, see also Gen 24:7

7The LORD God of heaven, which took me from my father's house, and from the land of my kindred, and which spake unto me, and that sware unto me, saying, Unto thy seed will I give this land; he shall send his angel before thee, and thou shalt take a wife unto my son from thence.

As before the promise to enter the land was not for Abraham personally and no definite time frame is given as to how long the land would belong to His seed. It should be noted that the promise of his seed obtaining the land was unconditionally made to Abraham at ther beginning and all He did was build an altar to worship Gen 12:7


7And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.

beloved57
March 13th, 2011, 06:19 PM
Now lets look at another covenant promise made to Abraham in the scripture, which did include Abraham personally:

Gen 12:1-3

1Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

2And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Gen 13:15-17

15For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.

16And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.

17Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee.

This promise was made to Abraham and His seed, and the continuance of this land grant is stated forever. This promise is spoken again Gen 17:5-8


5Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

6And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.

7And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

8And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

Here is the annunciation of it to the other heirs of promise Heb 11:8-9


8By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

9By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

Gen 26:1-5 and Gen 28: 12-15

Lets look at the noticeable difference, the covenant promises of the Land that excluded Abraham, these promises the scripture says have been fulfilled, but the promises of the Land that included Abraham have not been fulfilled..

Now the land acquisition of Abraham's Physical seed, the Nation of Israel, of which no time frame was given expressly, that promise has been fulfilled to that seed of Abraham> Lets look at Josh 21:43-45

43And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.

44And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.

45There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

Josh 23:14

14And, behold, this day I am going the way of all the earth: and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the LORD your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, and not one thing hath failed thereof.

Neh 9:7-8

7Thou art the LORD the God, who didst choose Abram, and broughtest him forth out of Ur of the Chaldees, and gavest him the name of Abraham;

8And foundest his heart faithful before thee, and madest a covenant with him to give the land of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Jebusites, and the Girgashites, to give it, I say, to his seed, and hast performed thy words; for thou art righteous:

Now, from these scriptures, who can doubt that God has not already kept the land promise to Abraham's physical seed..It was a done deal centuries ago..

beloved57
March 20th, 2011, 08:00 PM
Rom 9:6-8

6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

In this passage Israel is defined in four titles

In vs 6 Israel

in vs 7 The seed of Abraham or Children of Abraham

in vs 8 Children of God and The Children of promise

So either of these titles can be Israel, that is Israel is the seed of Abraham or children of Abraham, the Children of God or children of promise as well as Israel is Israel.

So then the Children of Abraham by Faith as per Gal 3:7

7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

This is Israel ! The Children or Sons of God by Faith are Israel Gal 3:26

26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

The seed of Abraham is Israel Gal 3:29

29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The Children of Promise as in Gal 4:28

28Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

All of these Titles for Israel are found in Rom 9:6-8 as they define Israel of vs 6..

And likewise those Titles define believers in Christ no matter their ethnicity..

So their is a Israel that is not based upon ethnicity, but based on belonging to Christ..

Thats the Israel of God to whom all the promises of God were made to in the OT.

beloved57
March 22nd, 2011, 07:16 AM
As previously posted one of the titles given Israel in the passage Rom 9:6-8 is that of Children of Promise vs 8

That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Now, each believer in Christ is as Isaac was a child of promise, that is a child of Abraham in the same manner as Isaac became a child of Abraham, we know this testimony is True from Gal 4:28-29

28Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

29But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

This statement is huge, very huge. You see this means we become children of Abraham because of God's Promise to Abraham, and not because we willed to become Abraham's children.

This is how Isaac became Abraham's Child..

Gen 17:15-19

15And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be.

16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.

17 Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?

18And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!

19And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.




Notice the promise here given to Abraham by God to give Him a Son by His wife even though they were very well advanced in age..

Again Gen 18:9-14

9And they said unto him, Where is Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent.

10And he said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him.

11Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women.

By the laws of nature, Sarah was too old to have a child, her reproduction days were over with..


12Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?

13And the LORD said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old?

14Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.

This Statement denotes that Sarah having Isaac was by God performing a promise by His Power and Ability, and not due to normal and natural causes and in spite of natural ability to have children !

Gen 21:1-3

1And the LORD visited Sarah as he had said, and the LORD did unto Sarah as he had spoken.

This is important, The LORD did [performed His word] unto Sarah as He had spoken or promised. see 1 kg 8:20;

2For Sarah conceived, and bare Abraham a son in his old age, at the set time of which God had spoken to him.

3And Abraham called the name of his son that was born unto him, whom Sarah bare to him, Isaac.

Now Isaac before he was ever born was said he would be Abraham's Heir of Promise ! Gen 15:1-4

1After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.

2And Abram said, LORD God, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?

3And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.

4And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This[eliezer] shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.

So Isaac was by God the designated Heir of promise ! What Heir ? Heb 11:8-10,16

8By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

9By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

10For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Heirs of that Blessed Land of Promise, the Eternal heavenly city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God !

16But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

So quite simply, the Heirship was of Heaven, that everlasting good land of Canaan Gen 17:7-8

8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

Notice, through this Promise, the seed that shall inherit this eternal land [heaven] God has promised to be their God, no matter what generation they will born in vs

7And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

So in essence, the Children of promise are all those of Abraham's seed that God unconditionally establishes His everlasting Covenant with, and Isaac was one of many..

So it was not Isaac's Faith [though of course He would be given Faith], nor His repentance, or anything He did that constituted him an heir of heaven or promise, but it was because and according to God's unconditional Promise that he would be Heir, and consequently, an heir will be a believer; and so it is with all true Believers in Christ, for they are so in the same manner as Isaac was children of promise, and heirs of that everlasting Canaan promised to Abraham and His seed Gen 17:5-8.

So all believers are in actuality Isaac's to Abraham, but in different ethnic groups, and generations of time..we are all His children of promise [B]born out of the performance of God performing His word..

And all these are Israel, the Israel of God, the Children of Promise..

God told Abraham Rom 9:7

Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

And of course Isaac's natural seed is not meant here, because of the distinction later made between Jacob and Esau !

beloved57
March 23rd, 2011, 11:13 AM
The Hope Of Israel !

Acts 28:20

20For this cause therefore have I called for you, to see you, and to speak with you: because that for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.

Paul stated as the Chosen Apostle to the Gentiles, that He was in chains for or because of the Hope of Israel !

Was this Hope a earthly kingdom for the ethnic jews ? Or was this hope, the hope of the Gospel as per Col 1:23

If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Paul was in bonds or chains in Acts 20:21-25 for this:

21Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

22And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there:

23Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me.

24But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

25And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.

No doubt the bonds He was yet in acts 28:20 are for the same cause spoken here in Acts 20 24-25 Preaching the Gospel of the Grace of God and Preaching the Kingdom of God.

If we look back to chpt 26 when paul spake unto King Agrippa, we see as paul understood the scriptures The Hope of the promise of God made to the Fathers [Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob] unto which promise all the Twelve Tribes [The Church of God or The Israel of God] hope to come, was realized in the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Acts 26:6-8;16-18

6And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God, unto our fathers:

7Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews.

8Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you,[B] that God should raise the dead?

And to confirm this He [Paul] explained His encounter with the risen Lord on the damascus road, of which He was charged by Him to preach the Gospel to both Jews and Greeks vs

16But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;

17Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,

18To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Note: This is still the hope of Israel !

In Preaching the Hope of Israel, He preached also the Kingdom of God by the Cross of Christ to both Jews and Gentiles Acts 28:28-31

28Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

29And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.

30And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all [jew or gentile] that came in unto him,

31Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

So we see the Kingdom of God and the Lord Jesus Christ go hand and hand, and there is no preaching Christ without Preaching His resurrection see 1 Cor 15:3-4..

From what has been presented, the Hope of Israel is Spiritual and grounded in the Cross of Christ and His resurrection, and so thats why paul even as a apostle to the gentiles could say that God, in raising up Christ, raised a Saviour unto Israel, meaning Spiritual Israel Acts 13:23

23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

This is the Hope of Israel, even the Israel of God..

beloved57
March 24th, 2011, 11:54 PM
Rom 11:26


26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

The Phrase all Israel does not mean all of the ethnic jewish nation of Israel. Remember Paul said in Rom 9:6

6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

But it does mean all of the redeemed of the New Covenant age. The word SO is a conclusive word from the preceding verses when paul had explained who it is that makes up Israel or Israel of God. He did this by the olive tree analogy [ Rom 11:16-24], and after doing that, He brings the matter to its climax by stating " And So" that is the manner I just Illustrated with the Olive Trees, all Israel shall be saved; which is basically the gathering together of all Abraham's children of which He was made a Father of in every nation here Gen 17:5

5Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

Not a Natural Father, but a Spiritual Father, Children of Faith. Rom 4:11-17

11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

12And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

13For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

14For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

15Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

16Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

17(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Thats why we have scriptures Like Jn 10:16

16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Jn 11:51-52

51And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

52And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God [or Children of Abraham] that were scattered abroad.

These two scriptures confirm Rom 4:11,12 that He [Abraham] was the Father of not only the believing circumcision [jews] but also the believing uncircumcision [gentiles]

Those were the other sheep I have that were not of the Jewish fold..and what Paul means by the grafting in of the wild branches into the good olive tree..

beloved57
March 25th, 2011, 09:38 AM
The All of Israel in Rom 11:26 is the redeemed Church of God, which is composed of the election of Grace [ which did obtain the salvation promises that ethnic jews in national israel did not obtain as a whole see Rom 11:7] and added are the election of grace out of the Gentiles as a people for His Name Acts 15:14

14Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people [Israel] for his name. see Dan 9:19

In fact the main reason why Paul wrote Rom 4:9-11 along with Gal 3,4 and 6 was to enlighten us to exactly who the True Israel is who inherits the promises of God, which was not the National Israel of the Natural seed of Abraham, but His Spiritual seed of every Nation..

beloved57
March 25th, 2011, 05:47 PM
Gal 4:22

22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

The natural descendants of Abraham who was Israel [Rom 9:8] was never the intended [Israel], but the Spiritual Descendants of Abraham, people of Faith was, they are the Heirs of Promise according to the Fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Paul gives evidence of this by opening up a historical fact in the OT in Abraham having Two Sons. From this narrative we see the different ways these Sons were dealt with in Divine Providence, Paul teaches the purpose of God, in identifying the unbelief for almost the entire nation of Israel, and the few believing remnant. The unbelieving answered to the children of the bondwoman Hagar and the believing[those who received Him Jn 1:12] answer to the Free woman Sarah; for paul says that this narrative serves as an allegory which He gives the sense of in verses Gal 4:21-31

Now Abraham's eldest Son Ishmael, from the bond woman represents the Nation of Israel, formed at Sinai at the giving of the Law Covenant vs

24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

Note: This is very instructive, for it gives us God's perspective of National Israel during Paul's time ! They are those born after the Flesh. Now Ishmael had the privilege of being Abraham's firstborn Son for a considerable time before Isaac the Heir was born of Promise. Now during that time Ishmael was the firstborn, answers to the time span from Sinai to the day of Pentecost, the era of the OC, and so it appeared Ishmael was the expected Heir of the Abrahamic Covenant of Promise, and it was so, for a while even after Isaac was born, even then Ishmael for a season remained the privilege firstborn son, and even persecuted the True Heir vs

29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

But the scathing words " 30Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

Note: This the actual casting out of National Israel as being Heirs of the Abrahamic promises !

Ishmael, who represents the ethnic nation of Israel along with his mother in the allegory, shall not be Heir with the children of promise, Isaac who represents the Children of Promise and the True Israel, the Spiritual seed will inherit the promises.

Now does not this analogy fit well with what Jesus said here Matt 21:42-43

42Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

43Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you [Ishmael], and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.[Isaac]

Abraham having the Two Sons, Ishmael and Isaac, was part of the Divine Purpose of God to Illustrate this very purpose of who His Israel, Children of Promise are..and its not National Israel, but Spiritual Israel born of Promise..

beloved57
April 2nd, 2011, 04:18 PM
Gal 6:16

16And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Remember Paul's words in rom 9:

6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

here he clearly makes a reference to Two different Israel's or His words here would be most strange to say the least. One of the Israels is the physical seed of Abraham, the nation of Israel and the other is the spiritual seed of Abraham, the Israel of God. They both are legitimate Israel's because they are the seed of Abraham Isa 41:8


8 But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.

And thats important to because Jesus is also the seed of Abraham Gal 3:16, and so He can be called Israel as well, which is alluded to isa 49:3.

This I will say, that the Spiritual Seed of Abraham, those of Faith Gal 3:7

7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. see rom 9:7

Have more of a right to be called Israel, because they are the True Children of God Gal 3:26

26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

And not only that, Jacob who had his name Divinely changed to Israel, was after a spiritual victory of Faith Gen 32:28

28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

In this Jacob was a Type of Christ, who is A prince and the one from the Tribe of Judah who has prevailed !

God had earlier revealed Himself to Jacob and gave Him the promises of Abraham in Gen 28:10-17, lets look particularly at vs

14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed. The blessing of the Messiah cp with Gen 12:3

3And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

For according to Paul this promise was the Gospel gal 3:8; and peter too states it Acts 3:25.

So Jacob was a believer in Christ see gal 3:26, a overcomer and one who prevailed 1 Jn 5:4. Jacob as all of God's elect was given the Faith of God's elect, and thats what characterizes the Israel of God, Abraham's spiritual seed, the other Israel in rom 9:6. So people of God given Faith as Abraham, as Jacob have more of the right to be called Israel than Abraham's descendants of the flesh Israel.

beloved57
April 8th, 2011, 07:54 AM
One of the prominent errors of our day, is the ethnic jews are God's chosen people. Thats never been the case, God has only One Chosen People, and they all were Chosen in the Chosen, the Lord Jesus Christ before the foundation Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

And of course the bible Teaches that He is the Chosen of God 1 Pet 2:4

To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,

Now to prove this point, that National Israel jews were not God's Chosen People, except for a remnant, we will look at Rom 11:7


7 What then? Israel[National Israel] hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

You see that ? The election hath obtained it ,in lieu of the Nation as a whole !

The word for election is the greek word eklogē:


the act of picking out, choosing

a) of the act of God's free will by which before the foundation of the world he decreed his blessings to certain persons

b) the decree made from choice by which he determined to bless certain persons through Christ by grace alone

2) a thing or person chosen

a) of persons: God's elect

The word is used as chosen here in Acts 9:15

15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

So Rom 11:7 can read:

7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the chosen hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Folks what can be plainer that the Nation itself was not the Chosen of God, but a remnant of that nation was ?

So to say that the Nation of Israel, the Physical nation of people are or ever were God's Chosen People is not true to scripture.

Its always only been a small remnant [of spiritual Israel, people of Faith] who were God's Chosen People in that Nation i.e Isa 1:9

9Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.

And as Paul states in Rom 11:7 the remnant did receive of the promises of the Abrahamic Covenant, but they were received through the Gospel of Christ, whom they had been Chosen in before the foundation of the world. The foreknown People of God..

So Rom 11:7 informs us that the Nation of Israel, that has been blinded, were not the chosen of God..

beloved57
April 28th, 2011, 02:50 PM
Jn11:23-26

23Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.

24Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

1 Cor 15:20-23

20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

21For since by man came death, by man[ Christ] came also the resurrection of the dead.

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Shall the OT Saints raise from the dead ? Wherein does their hope lie? Is it not in Jesus Christ ? That's exactly what Jesus meant when speaking to the Sisters of Lazarus. Yes Lazarus would have been a OT Saint at that particular time in biblical history, for technically the New Covenant era did not commence until after Christ death, for it was inaugurated by His Blood Matt 26:28

28 For this is my blood of the new testament or covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Now as to the Resurrection, Paul spake of the Father's [Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob] and the Twelve Tribes having this hope Acts 26:6-8

6And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God, unto our fathers:

7Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews.

8Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead?

Acts 13:32-33

32And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,

33God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

Now I hope we see this, OT Saints, the Fathers their hope of Resurrection in the Last Day, lied in Christ's , the Head of the Church, The Great Shepherd of the Sheep.

Now if the OT Saints hope of Resurrection is fulfilled in Christ being raised from the dead [He being the Firstfruits] as Acts 13 :32-33 tells us, then that means they too were part of the Church, the Body of Christ in the OT, because their hope is In Christ's Resurrection, the Head of the Body, the Church,just as the NT Saints hope is.

You see, He is the Firstfruits of all who are in Him to rise again at His coming in the Last Day. Jesus told the Sisters " I am the Resurrection " that is their brother's resurrection in the last day they referenced, was dependent upon Him and His Finished work. The OT Saints and the NT Saints hope of Resurrection is centered in the One Head, the Lord Jesus Christ, the Head of the Church. His Resurrection is not only a guarantee, but a pledge in the sense that it was the actual beginning of that event that will occur at His Coming.. Thats why He is the First fruit, a pledge of the coming harvest..

beloved57
June 24th, 2011, 05:52 AM
The Identifying trait of the True Israel of God, the foreknown People of God, which is also Israel, is not ethnicity or genealogy according to the flesh, but Faith by the promise and power of God[ See Jn 1:13] She is not of the flesh, but of the Spirit.

The Nation of Israel was not a Nation made up of flesh, but is a Spiritual Nation made up of all those born of the Seed Christ, who is Abraham's seed to whom the Promises were made [ Gal 3:16], who is the one and only True Israel, God Prevails ! or He shall be a Prince of God ! Acts 5:31.

The Nation here in Ps 33:12

12Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD; and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance.

This is not National Israel according to the flesh, that physical nation formed at Sinai, but this is a Spiritual Nation formed out of the Grace of the everlasting Covenant and it's blood. It's the Same Nation as described here in 1 Pet 2:9

9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

And who but those Chosen in Christ before the foundation as per Eph 1:4, are God's Inheritance as per Eph 1:18

18The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

It is the Seed Christ that makes anyone of Israel; merely being of the physical descendants of the Fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, did not make one the True Israel of God [Rom 9:6-8], but no matter what ethnicity, if we belong to Christ [The Seed Gal 3:16] then are we in Israel that matters, for its only through Him that we are made that Holy Nation ! Eph 1:4

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

beloved57
July 12th, 2011, 02:23 AM
Rom 9:6-8

6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Many are going to be confounded in the day of Judgment, having been deceived that Promises were made to the Physical Nation of Israel according to the Flesh.

The Two Israel's of Rom 9:6-8, The one was children of the flesh, the natural descendants of Abraham only, the other, the Children of Promise, who were counted for the Spiritual seed [jew and gentile believers].

God through Paul goes on to make this clear by the comparison of Abraham's Two Son's, Ishmael and Isaac; Ishmael representing that Israel according to the flesh only [see Gal 4] and Isaac representing that Israel according to the promise or Spirit, Abraham's Spiritual descendants, all people of Faith, whether jew or gentile [ Rom 4].

beloved57
July 22nd, 2011, 07:00 AM
Phil 3:1-3

1Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe.

2Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.

3For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

True believers are Israel, the circumcision. What characterizes the circumcision here Paul is Speaking of ?

Well its a circumcision made without hands Col 2:11

11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

More to the context here are a few things that constitute Israel or the circumcision.

#1 They worship God in the Spirit. This means they are born of the Spirit Jn 3:3-8 and also remember what Jesus told the woman at Samaria Jn 4:23-24

23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

God has always sought such to worship Him in Spirit and in Truth. David writes Ps 51:6

6Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.

How does Truth be in the inward parts except by the Spirit ? Jer 31:33

33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. See Ezk 36:26-27 also !

And then we have this Israel Ps 73:1

1Truly God is good to Israel, even to such as are of a clean heart.

What is a clean Heart but one circumcised with the circumcision of Christ ?

A clean heart is not natural to man, its of the Power of God,its a Creation Ps 51:10

Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

Now most certainly this was not referencing to Israel, Abraham's children according to the flesh.

beloved57
July 24th, 2011, 07:42 AM
The Circumcision or Israel that Paul addresses in Phil 3:1-3 had no confidence in the flesh. vs 3

3For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

Now what does that mean ? If a ethnic jew, as Paul it meant they do not depend upon their ethnicity and natural and physical relationship to Abraham to find acceptance with God. That that is the case we see when we read Paul's comments vs 4-9 Phil 3:4-9

4Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:

5Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

6Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

7But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

8Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

9And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

You see, all things before Paul's conversion that he trusted in, being a jew, of the tribe of Benjamin, circumcision and all that was confidence in the flesh to be accepted of God. Note Jeremiah 17:5

Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.

You know this was huge in Christ day, those jews He ministered to expressed much confidence in the flesh by bringing up their physical relationship to Abraham. Remember Jesus conversation with some of them in Jn 8:33-37,39-40


33They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

34Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

35And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

36If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

37I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

Again the proud exclaim in vs 39

39They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

Yes they were Abraham's seed physically, but at the same time they were not Abraham's seed spiritually or inwardly, for remember God requires Truth on the inward part Ps 51:6

6Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.

Well Jesus just told these arrogant people that His word has no place in them vs 37. Now what is Truth but the word of God ? Notice vs 40

40But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

You see, thats not Israel, a people who refuse the Truth of God, it does not matter their nationality, jewish or otherwise, Israel is as such with a clean Heart that receives God's word Ps 73:1

1Truly God is good to Israel, even to such as are of a clean heart.

Now tell me, how can a people be God's True People, God's Israel, and not receive His word ? It is impossible. But the True Israel of God has no confidence in the flesh.

beloved57
July 25th, 2011, 01:28 PM
Phil 3:3

3For we are the circumcision[Israel], which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

Also to have no confidence in the flesh means that one has not relied upon their performances to make them acceptable to God. What do I mean? Any act of personal obedience of theirs, such as their faith of act of believing, repentance, water baptism, going to church, their freewill decision and on and on , that is, any religious duty or duties one and all; all them doing such, whether jew or gentile, thats confidence in the flesh= Religious duties.

Gal 5:2-4


2Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

3For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

4Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Those who began to listen to false teaching about having to be circumcised as a followup to Faith in Christ, in order to be complete in Him, were in danger [if believed] of renouncing what had been taught in the Gospel which they had professed to embrace, that being saved was totally by Grace based upon the Obedience of Christ. Rom 5:19

Once we begin to add any act of personal obedience to our being or staying saved, we deny Grace. This makes known your previous profession was bogus and not a Spiritual wrought Faith by the Holy Spirit. This shows you now begin to have confidence in the flesh, something you do, to finish the deal of Salvation, and what Christ did alone was not good enough..

Gal 3:3;6:13

3Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

13For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.


This means, you deny now that Salvation is By Grace ! This the True Israel, Circumcision will not do !

beloved57
July 31st, 2011, 07:44 AM
That Abraham's Seed, the Children of Promise, Israel, would be comprised of Gentiles is intimated in Gen 17:5-8

5Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

6And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.

7And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

8And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

The Gentiles are included as God says a Father of Many Nations have I made thee. This is Abraham's Seed, not just from among the Jews but also among the Gentiles ot the Nations. The word for Nations in Gen 17:5 is the hebrew word gowy and is translated gentiles at least 30 times in the OT Isa 11:10; Isa 42:1,6

And its seen here in this passage in Isa 45:20-25

20Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save.

21Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

22Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

23I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

24Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

25In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

Now Cp vs 22 with 25, All the seed of Israel is comprised of all them God calls to look to Him and be ye saved in vs 22

This would be Abraham's Seed of Promise in Gen 17:5 ! The fulfillment is Eph 2:11-20;Gal 3:29

beloved57
August 9th, 2011, 02:04 AM
God according to His Promise !

Acts 13:23

23Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

Salvation is by Promise, and its Limited to a specific People, Israel as here indicated by Paul. Paul does not mean National Israel, but Spiritual Israel, Abraham's Children of Promise as per Rom 9:6-8

6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Salvation through Christ is made sure to all the seed ! Rom 4:16

Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

You see, Salvation is according to Promise unto a certain seed, its not a universal offer , but a given Promise to the Seed of Israel. Its only one people God has promised to save !

Isa 45:17,25

But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

Notice Israel shall be saved in the LORD. The word shall denotes Promise ! And again Israel does not mean National Israel according to the Flesh, they were merely a Type, but Israel of Promise..

In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

Again, in the LORD shall [promise] all the seed of Israel be Justified. Israel here is Christ. And all of His Seed shall be Justified in Him..

Isa 53:10-11

10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

He shall bear their Iniquities ! Whose Iniquities ? His Seed, and so by ding, He Justifies them as promised !

Isa identifies this same Servant as Israel here Isa 49:3

3And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

Thats referring to Christ !

beloved57
September 14th, 2011, 11:32 PM
What do I mean that Israel and the Church are the same ? I am not speaking about Physical National Israel, but Spiritual Israel that was within her. Remember there was Two Israel's Rom 9:6

6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

You had the Physical Nation comprised of Abraham's Natural descendants, that was Israel, and you had Abraham's Spiritual descendants within the Nation, also called the Remnant, that was Israel.

The Church of the New Covenant is the Spiritual Remnant Israel that was in Physical Israel, the Nation..

Now Paul writing to both jew and gentile believers in Corinth applies a OT Promise to them indicating that the OT Remnant Israel, of the Election of Grace is the Same as the NT Remnant of Election of Grace comprised of both jews and gentiles God's People. Lets look at 2 Cor 6:14-7:1

14Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

15And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

16And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

17Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

18And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

2 Cor 7:1

1Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

What Promises ? Why the Promises that were made to Israel in the OT like Leviticus 26:11-12


11And I set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you.

12And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people.

Ezk 37:


26Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

27My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Now these Promises of the abiding presence of God to Israel, Paul says to the Corinthians in 2 Cor 7:1 that these promises are their motives for 2 Cor 7:1

1Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Spiritual cleansing from all filthiness of the flesh, and perfecting holiness in the fear of the Lord. So those OT promises are fulfilled in the Church with Spiritual Israel..

beloved57
September 15th, 2011, 10:07 PM
That the NT Church and The OT Church are the same, because Believers in Christ under the New Covenant dispensation are the Spiritual Children of the OT Prophets Gal 3:7,29 Acts 3:25-26

Gal 3:7

7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.


29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The word seed here is the greek word sperma and means:

the product of this semen, seed, children, offspring, progeny

b) family, tribe, posterity

Acts 3:25-26

25Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

26Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Now even though Peter was specifically speaking to ethnic jews here, what he said was not restricted to them, for the criteria of him stating what he stated was The Promise God made to Abraham " And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed"

Its the very same criteria that Paul stated when speaking of Gentile Believers Gal 3:8

8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

And as we seen in Gal 3:7 these gentiles because of Faith are Abraham's Children, who by the way is called a Prophet here Gen 20:

7Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for thee, and thou shalt live: and if thou restore her not, know thou that thou shalt surely die, thou, and all that are thine.

So what Peter stated in Acts 3:25 a Ye are the Children of the Prophets, applies to Gentile Believers also..

beloved57
September 26th, 2011, 07:35 AM
God being a Saviour to Israel is nothing other than God being a Saviour to His Church that He purchased with His own Blood. Isa 45:17

But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

Acts 20:28

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

The Church and Israel are the same in that, the Church, which are Believers in Christ are the Spiritual Children of the OT Saints or Prophets. Gal 3:7,29

7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Now in both of these references, Paul is referring to both Gentile and Jewish Believers in Christ through the gospel, for they are both partakers of God's Promises through the Gospel. Eph 3:6

That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

The Promise referred to is Here Gal 3:8

8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed

Which goes back to Gen 12:3

3And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.


Gen 22:18

18And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

And Peter speaking to a primarily ethnic jewish audience states the same promise Acts 3:25-26

25Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

26Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

So both Gentile Believers and Jewish Believers are Children of the Prophets, through Christ ! Which constitutes the Church that Christ Builds Matt 16:18

18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

His Church is comprised of the Spiritual Children of Abraham, Gentile or Jew !

beloved57
October 8th, 2011, 08:43 AM
For Christ to be a Saviour unto Israel as here Acts 13:23

Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

It's the same as Christ being the Saviour of the Body ! Eph 5:23

For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

This proves that Israel and the Church, His Body are one and the same ! Eph 1:22-23

22And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

23Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.


You see Israel that Christ saves is not a literial Physical Israel, like those over in the middle east, but a Spiritual Israel, even the Israel of God, comprised of Abraham's Spiritual seed from the jews and from the gentiles..

beloved57
October 8th, 2011, 09:51 AM
1 Cor 15:20

20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Who at the time of Paul would be the them that slept ? The firstfruits of who ?

Paul is stating here that Christ through His Resurrection became the Firstfruits of them that slept ! The word slept here in the greek is in the Perfect Tense. Those that slept would be denoting all believers in Christ who had died in the OT and the those who had died up to that present time that Paul was writing. This shows us that the OT Saints and the NT Saints are all of one body, Christ's Church. Who was Paul writing to ?

It was the Church that was at Corinth 1 Cor 1:1-2

1Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,

2Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:

So Christ is the Firstfruits of all believers of all time, which means all believers of all time are His One Church, the Called out ones.

1 Cor 15 is speaking about Christ's Resurrection 1 Cor 15:12-18

12Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

13But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

14And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

15Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

16For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

17And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

18Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

Ye know, if Christ had not risen from the dead, the OT Saints would be dead and yet in their sins !

But because they also were part of His Mystical Body the Church, His resurrection confirms their Faith in Him as they looked forward to His Coming, and the NT Saints look back !

What do you think Christ was talking about with Lazarus's sisters here ? Jn 11:23-26

23Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.

24Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Lazarus was an OT Believer who had hope in Christ and the Resurrection. This Resurrection was centered in the Finish work of Christ.

Was the Resurrection that Lazarus had hope in any different from the one Paul Preached in 1 Cor 15:4

4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Elia
October 9th, 2011, 01:09 AM
10And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Bs'd

For Zach 12:10 look here: https://sites.google.com/site/777mountzion/et-asher


Eliyahu

Ben Masada
October 10th, 2011, 06:13 PM
1 Cor 15:20

20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Who at the time of Paul would be the them that slept ? The firstfruits of who ?

Paul is stating here that Christ through His Resurrection became the Firstfruits of them that slept ! The word slept here in the greek is in the Perfect Tense. Those that slept would be denoting all believers in Christ who had died in the OT and the those who had died up to that present time that Paul was writing. This shows us that the OT Saints and the NT Saints are all of one body, Christ's Church. Who was Paul writing to ?

It was the Church that was at Corinth 1 Cor 1:1-2

1Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,

2Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:

So Christ is the Firstfruits of all believers of all time, which means all believers of all time are His One Church, the Called out ones.

1 Cor 15 is speaking about Christ's Resurrection 1 Cor 15:12-18

12Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

13But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

14And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

15Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

16For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

17And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

18Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

Ye know, if Christ had not risen from the dead, the OT Saints would be dead and yet in their sins !

But because they also were part of His Mystical Body the Church, His resurrection confirms their Faith in Him as they looked forward to His Coming, and the NT Saints look back !

What do you think Christ was talking about with Lazarus's sisters here ? Jn 11:23-26

23Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.

24Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Lazarus was an OT Believer who had hope in Christ and the Resurrection. This Resurrection was centered in the Finish work of Christ.

Was the Resurrection that Lazarus had hope in any different from the one Paul Preached in 1 Cor 15:4

4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:


Since you are dealing here with I Corinthians 15, why not read verse 32? Paul declared that if the dead won't resurrect, let us eat and drink
for tomorrow we die. I can't understand how Christians would read something like that and not be able to see through the conditional faith of Paul. He himself, somewhere else, said that such a faith is comparable to mentrual rags. One is forced to quit trying to understand such an attitude.
Ben

beloved57
October 12th, 2011, 08:05 AM
You see, National Israel was a Type of the Church, and early on Spiritual Israel, God's True Elect were in her, National Israel. All this was designed to show that God only dealt with a specific, and particular people for Salvation Purposes. What many did not understand was that, this specific and particular people, although for a long while resided in National Israel, would not be confined to that National People, but would be located throughout the world in all Nations under Heaven.

So when we read scriptures of prophecy denoting what God is going to do for Israel, or the House of David,or Judah and so forth, those scriptures don't mean Physical Israel, but that special and specific people that belong to the Election of Grace of all Nations.

An example is Zech 13:1

1In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.

This Prophecy is speaking about Christ shed blood for His Church, that is who the House of David is speaking of here. The fountain open here is His Shed Blood. But notice the language, it tells us specifically whom this Fountain is opened to, a specific People, the House of David.

Thats important, and that is why Christ being of the seed of David is a important fact, not only to the jew but also the gentiles.

Paul writing to both jew and gentile believers opens up in his introduction to Romans Rom 1:1-3

1Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

2(Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)

3Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

or look at his letter to Timothy who history tells us had a gentile Father 2 Tim 2:8

Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

And we know that Paul was an specially raised up Apostle for the Gentiles, and this fact of Christ being of the seed of David applied to them as well, because of prophecies like Zech 13:1. Paul taught them how they were objects of that specific promise ! Romans 15:12

And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

You see that ? To reign over the Gentiles, in Him shall they Trust ! Now to reign over the Gentiles here is the same as to reign over the the House of Jacob as here Lk 1:33

And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Guess what folks ? Its the same exact reign here as in Romans 15:12. I challenge anyone to prove it otherwise !

I make these points to show that even though Salvation extends outside of the boundaries of National and Ethnic Israel, yet it [Salvation] is still limited to Israel, even the Israel of God, which includes both chosen jews and gentiles !

beloved57
October 14th, 2011, 06:23 PM
National Israel was not God's People ! If we look at Rom 11 it starts out with this question Rom 11:1-2

I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.

You see that ? God hath not cast away His People He foreknew ! This does not read, he has cast them away, but He will reclaim them, Paul plainly says He has not cast them away, period !

Now then, the people that God did cast away here in Rom 11:15

15For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

This " Them" that are cast away, these could not have been God's People in Rom 11:2 that Paul said God hath not cast away, unless Paul lied or was confused..

beloved57
October 15th, 2011, 06:11 PM
We know that the Nation that was blinded could not have been God's Chosen People, because, the Chosen or the Election obtained the Promises. So if the Election in the Nation obtained the Promises to Israel, Election means Chosen, then quite reasonably, the rest which were blinded could not have been the Election or Chosen ! Read Rom 11:7

What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

This Israel,National hath not obtained that which he seeketh, in Contrast to that Israel which was the Elect did !

So that Israel [National] which did not receive and was blinded was not God's Chosen..

Jesus Christ would not blind His Chosen People, but His Purpose for them was to open their eyes so that they may see ! Isa 42:7

To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

Acts 26:18

To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

So those, the rest of Rom 11:7 were not God's elect whom He had a Saving Purpose for.

Ben Masada
October 15th, 2011, 07:56 PM
We know that the Nation that was blinded could not have been God's Chosen People, because, the Chosen or the Election obtained the Promises. So if the Election in the Nation obtained the Promises to Israel, Election means Chosen, then quite reasonably, the rest which were blinded could not have been the Election or Chosen ! Read Rom 11:7

What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

This Israel,National hath not obtained that which he seeketh, in Contrast to that Israel which was the Elect did !

So that Israel [National] which did not receive and was blinded was not God's Chosen..


This is Replacement Theology of the worst kind. Therefore, between you and Jesus, I prefer Jesus' view that the Jews are the light of the world, as he declared in his sermon of the mount to a crowd of Jews listening to him. (Mat. 5:14)
Ben

beloved57
October 16th, 2011, 04:43 AM
ben


This is Replacement Theology of the worst kind.

It actually is against replacement, for God's Elect never has been Abraham's descendants according to the Flesh ! Not Ever..Prideful and egotistical ethnic jews made that claim, not God..

Ps82
October 16th, 2011, 11:09 AM
Jews are not any more prideful than the rest of humanity. Of course that means that they are at least just as prideful as the rest of us.

Yet, the LORD chosen them ... and chose them as a Nation ... for his purposes.

He singled them out as a nation and chose them to reveal himself through them by the miracles, blessings, and corrections he would display among them before the eyes of the rest of the world.

They agreed to the covenant, which has meant their being held more accountable for their transgression - far more - than the rest of humanity.
They have endured much because of their relationship with the LORD.

I've never done a study regarding the final blessings of Israel, but I think that God will probably bless them nationally one day because of their earthly participation with God in his plans. After all, through thick and thin ... through obedience and disobedient ... through understanding and blindness ... they have been used by the LORD anyway... and have suffered from and in the eyes of the nations of the world because of their selection.

As one who is not a Jew ... and looking with hind-sight ... I'm not so sure it seems very blessed to have become a chosen nation due to the accountability to which God held them and the world hated them.

However, now, that the Gentiles have heard the truth and become children of Abraham through faith in Jesus Christ ... are we not held even the more accountable? To him who much is given - much is required. Have we not been offered the most wonderful gift of all - the salvation we could never have earned for ourselves?

Shouldn't we Christians certainly be as much - if not more - aware of our own accountability as was the nation of Israel ... of which the Jews are the preserved identifiable remnant?

beloved57
October 16th, 2011, 02:21 PM
ps


Jews are not any more prideful than the rest of humanity.

Maybe not, but the reason why they are prideful is the issue, they think [some of them]they are better off with God than other people groups because of race and they are not.


Yet, the LORD chosen them

No He did not, He chose some of them along with people of other nations !

beloved57
October 16th, 2011, 06:46 PM
So how could the Nation of Israel which God rejected be God's Chosen People, when scripture makes a distinction between the Rejected Nation and the Chosen or Election that was not rejected ? Rom 11:7

7What then? Israel[National] hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election[Spiritual Israel] hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Now both Spiritual Israel and National Israel cannot both be God's Election or Chosen.. So National Israel is a phony, a fake, a wanna be !

Ps82
October 16th, 2011, 07:40 PM
ps



Maybe not, but the reason why they are prideful is the issue, they think [some of them]they are better off with God than other people groups because of race and they are not.



No He did not, He chose some of them along with people of other nations !

Well, now, that's interesting suggestion. I thought God made a covenant with the nation of Israel and their descendants after them. Help me see why you think that this is wrong.

I guess people can get puffed up when they perceive themselves as chosen of God ... but in the long run how has that worked out for them? They have become a pretty persecuted lot... unless they take pride in their persecution.

Ps82
October 16th, 2011, 07:43 PM
Well, Beloved ... God chose them as the nation from which our LORD would one day be manifested. This was a sign of who he was when he arrived. I'd call that chosen for his purposes. He always preserved a remnant no matter what mortal conflict came against them ... I'd say that God has still been using and preserving them for his purposes to this day.

Please show me why you think I am wrong.

beloved57
October 16th, 2011, 09:06 PM
ps


Well, now, that's interesting suggestion. I thought God made a covenant with the nation of Israel and their descendants after them

Thats what you get for thinking !


Well, Beloved ... God chose them as the nation from which our LORD would one day be manifested.

He chose the election within that nation, thats the nation Christ came through 1 Pet 2:9

9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

This has nothing to do with Physical borm jews, for if that is all one is, then they are not the Children of God Rom9:8

That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Christ came through the line that was the Children of God..

Ps82
October 16th, 2011, 10:03 PM
ps



Thats what you get for thinking !



He chose the election within that nation, thats the nation Christ came through 1 Pet 2:9

9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

This has nothing to do with Physical born jews, for if that is all one is, then they are not the Children of God Rom9:8

That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Christ came through the line that was the Children of God..

Well, aren't the children of promise - Abraham's children through FAITH? That would include Jews and Gentiles who put their Faith in the Christ?
Yet, doesn't that still leave a possibility open for Israel to also be a chosen nation? Of course I know that a particular lineage within Israel led to Christ's identity. I've often wondered why it was through the lineage of Judah ... and not pf Joseph. What are your thoughts on this?

Aren't the Jews the identifiable remnant left alive today of the nation of Israel and the lineage of Judah? I guess you will need to explain more of your ideas to me before I catch on.

I'm sort of a fan of Herbert Armstrong, who believed that the identity of the 10 tribes could be traced through the British Isles and into early America. Oh well, that's another topic.

I've never heard your ideas about this:

He chose the election within that nation, thats the nation Christ came through 1 Pet 2:9

9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

This has nothing to do with Physical born jews, for if that is all one is, then they are not the Children of God Rom9:8

So, exactly who are these elected ones within that nation of Israel?

King David was a descendant of Judah from which we get the Jews ... and after the split of the Northern and Southern kingdoms his lineage of kings ruled over the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi.

Well, since your ideas are so new to me ... I just don't get where you are coming from. You will need to help me by being more detailed and specific with me.

beloved57
October 17th, 2011, 10:33 AM
The Hope of Israel !

Acts 20:28

For this cause therefore have I called for you, to see you, and to speak with you: because that for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.

Why did the Apostle unto the Gentiles, one we know that without a shadow of doubt that God selected him specifically to be a Messenger to the Gentiles, why did he say "for the hope of Israel, he is bound with chain " ?

Because the Israel he is speaking of is not the National Israel comprised of Ethnic jews.

Its the Israel that is comprised of All the Children of Promise from amongst the jews and the Gentiles.

This Israel shall be saved with an everlasting salvation ! Isa 45:17

But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

Looking back at Acts 20:28, What is this Hope of Israel ? Why its the Hope of the Gospel Eph 3:6

6That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Col 1:5

For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

Was this not Abraham's hope ? Heb 11:16, A Hope of a Heavenly City ?

Col 1:23

If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature

Col 1:27

To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

This Hope is the Hope of Israel Acts 20:28. Its a Spiritual Heavenly Hope for a Spiritual Heavenly People.

It has absolutely nothing to do with Abraham's Physical descendants in the middle east, His Children merely by the Flesh, for they are not the Children of God Rom 9:8

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Ps82
October 17th, 2011, 12:21 PM
Hi Beloved,
You asked:

Why did the Apostle unto the Gentiles, one we know that without a shadow of doubt that God selected him specifically to be a Messenger to the Gentiles, why did he say "for the hope of Israel, he is bound with chain " ?

Here is the reason he referred to THIS CHAIN which resulted because he had hope for his own people.

Acts 28:20 KJV contains a pronoun - 'this' within this figurative clause: I am bound with this chain.

So what is the antecedent for this chain?
Well, Paul was talking about a particular group of Jews who had requested that the case made against him not to be dropped by the authorities. Acts 28:18, 19 KJV

This caused Paul to be bound to appeal to Caesar ... to show that he had done nothing against his own national Jewish religion. Acts 28:19 KJV

Now, because Paul had hope for his people Israel, he had been preaching among the Jews as well as the Gentiles. However, it was the Jews who usually rose up to harass him and cause him trouble. Because of THIS SECT of Jews (today, due to political correctness, people would probably prefer to call them radical terrorists) Paul had become bound in this legal mess like being bound with this chain they had caused to be attached to him.

In these passages Paul had called together another group of Jews with which to speak. He wanted to tell them about the harassment from those particular Jews who had chained him a legal life and death situation. Acts 28:17 KJV

This other group of Jews told Paul:
"We neither received letters out of Judaea (from other Jews) concerning you, neither any of the brethren (fellow Jews) that came showed or spake any harm of you. But we desire to hear of you (Paul) what you think:
for as concerning THIS SECT(of Jews), we know that every where it (that group) is spoken against."

When the day set had come Paul preached to these Jews about the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus... Acts 28:23 KJV

Paul wanted his people to hear of Jesus ... but he had become legally chained and bound to defend himself before Ceasear due to a particular SECT of Jews.

You concluded:


Because the Israel he is speaking of is not the National Israel comprised of Ethnic jews.

Its the Israel that is comprised of All the Children of Promise from amongst the jews and the Gentiles.

I do agree that people are saved through Christ ... and I believe that one day any unbelieving Jews will bow down and recognize Him as their Lord too...

BUT ... I'm just not sure that God is finished using literal national Israel to reveal his works and plans unto humanity. He and they are still in a covenant... and it's an on-going functioning covenant to be used by God.

Curses for dishonoring and disobeying Him... while blessings for honoring and obeying him.

Must run ...

Ben Masada
October 17th, 2011, 07:48 PM
ben



It actually is against replacement, for God's Elect never has been Abraham's descendants according to the Flesh ! Not Ever..Prideful and egotistical ethnic jews made that claim, not God..


There is nothing "against" Replacement Theology in the NT or in the sermon of a Christian. It is impossible to open the mouth and not to promote the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology.
Ben

beloved57
October 18th, 2011, 12:51 AM
There is nothing "against" Replacement Theology in the NT or in the sermon of a Christian. It is impossible to open the mouth and not to promote the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology.
Ben

You are trying to replace God's People of Faith, a Spiritual People, with a carnal fleshly people. Natural Israel of the Flesh are not the Children of God Rom 9:8

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

beloved57
October 18th, 2011, 10:51 AM
The problem with many in religion today is that they believe, because they are deceived, that Ethnic Jews, the Physical descendants of Abraham, called Israel, people believe they are God's Chosen or Elect People,but they are not, yes some of them were, just as some in the gentiles are, but the Nation as a whole was not God's Chosen or Elect People. Paul writes in Rom 11:7

7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Israel here is the National, and Ethic People of Israel, Abraham's, Jacob's Physical descendants.

Now God through Paul says that Israel has not obtained that which he seeketh after [ Righteousness before God] BUT BUT BUT the Election hath obtained it, They obtained it by Faith in Christ!

This makes it plain, that National Israel was not God's Chosen People !

Now who cannot see that Paul distinguishes Israel from the Election, which word means eklogē in the greek:


the act of picking out, choosing

a) of the act of God's free will by which before the foundation of the world he decreed his blessings to certain persons

b) the decree made from choice by which he determined to bless certain persons through Christ by grace alone

2) a thing or person chosen

a) of persons: God's elect


Its translated Chosen in Acts 9:15

15But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

Ps82
October 19th, 2011, 12:23 PM
Hi Beloved,
Regarding obtaining salvation ... at this time, Beloved, I do see things the way you do. Jews do not have salvation secured as a nation ... but rather there are elect among the Jews and or Israel, who have received it and will receive it.

But, when you think about it, isn't receiving salvation different from God's contract with the nation Israel to use them on earth to perform works among them in the eyes of men ... and to bless them nationally when they obey and honor him ... and correct them nationally when they disobey and dishonor him? Either way the LORD of the covenant with Israel gets the glory for being the ONE true living God.

God does not just have to use saved people. He used and can still use people, who are not saved as well.

Ps82
October 19th, 2011, 12:24 PM
Hi Beloved,
Regarding obtaining salvation ... at this time, Beloved, I do see things the way you do. Jews do not have salvation secured as a nation ... but rather there are elect among the Jews and or Israel, who have received it and will receive it.

But, when you think about it, isn't receiving salvation different from God's contract with the nation Israel to use them on earth to perform works among them in the eyes of men ... and to bless them nationally when they obey and honor him ... and correct them nationally when they disobey and dishonor him? Either way the LORD of the covenant with Israel gets the glory for being the ONE true living God.

God does not just have to use saved people. He used and can still use people, who are not saved as well. I just don't think God is finished using national Israel/the Jews. One reason being that he has purposely and miraculously preserved a remnant to this very day.

beloved57
November 11th, 2011, 08:50 AM
Rom 10:4

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

All the scripture, every last part of it was about Christ Lk 24:25-27


25Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

26Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

27And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

The Law, and the prophets, and the Psalms Lk 24:44

And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

All of scripture in some way or other, by prophecy or prefigurement have Christ and His People [The Church] as it's subject ! All the OT Prophecies and promises to and about God's People are fulfilled in Christ, there yes and amen are in Him 2 Cor 1:20


20For all the promises of God[From the OT] in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

And since Christ is one with His body the Church, it also [The Church] fulfills the promises from the OT to God's People 1 Pet 1:10-12


10Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

Notice vs 10, the grace that should come unto you ! This means in a nutshell, prophecies like Jer 31:31-34

31Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Which proclaims the Grace of the New Covenant to God's People, this prophecy finds it's fulfillment in Christ and His Church !

beloved57
November 16th, 2011, 11:03 AM
How is God a Saviour to Israel ? Because Israel is His Church purchased by His Blood Acts 20:28

28Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Paul said this in Acts 13:23,42

23Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

Now gentiles heard this message and they invited Paul to come again the next sabaath to Preach unto them the same words Acts 13:

42And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

You know why ? because God was indicating that those Gentiles are part of the Israel, the Church that Jesus was raised up as a Saviour to, according to God's Promise !

Now Israel is the Church that shall not be ashamed Isa 45:17

17But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

Now Paul writing to the Church at Rome says Rom 9:33

33As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Now this is referring to being saved vs 27 Rom 9:27

27Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Rom 10:11-13


11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

So it is the Jew and Gentile Church saved in The lord Jesus Christ, who is the Israel of Promise in Isa 45:17


17But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

beloved57
November 16th, 2011, 01:16 PM
Nothing Trumps God's Eternal Purpose in Christ Eph 3:11

According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

You see, everything must be subservient to this Eternal Purpose in Christ !

Now within the Eternal Purpose of God, it was for National Israel to come into existence, to be a type of the Church, God's chosen people in Christ 1 Cor 10:6,11

6Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.


11Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

Notice Paul here speaking to believers who were a composition of both jew and gentile, is stating that OT History and the things that occurred to National Israel was for OUR [Jew and Gentile Believers] admonition and happened for examples or types . The greek word is typos.

Old Testament History and Scripture was written for the sake of the Eternal Purpose of Christ and His Church !

This confirms and agrees with Peter's statement 1 Pet 1:10-12

10Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

Those upon whom the ends of the world or ages has come, and whom without, the OT Saints should not be made perfect !

This certainly connects the OT Saints with the NT Saints, which all make up the Body of Christ. The Church is the Perfecting of the Body of Christ which began in the OT with those Saints ! Without the New Covenant People the Saints, the OC People the Saints could not be Perfect Heb 11:40

God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

The Church was in the OT by virtue of Saved Jews, and it's Christ the Hope of Glory for them All, that is the Hope of Israel Acts 28:20

For this cause therefore have I called for you, to see you, and to speak with you: because that for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.

Now Paul says this even though He was especially Chosen and Commissioned to be an Apostle to the Gentiles !

Notice Gal 2:2

And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.

1 Tim 2:7

Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not ) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

2 Tim 1:1

Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.

But Paul could still say that, Hope of Israel was he in chains, because the gentiles were part of that Israel, and the Promises had been made to them as those to the Jews in Israel who were saved, So Paul writes Eph 3:6

That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body[ Church or Family], and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Now what Promises are Paul talking about that the Gentiles should be fellowheirs ? Rom 9:5

4Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

5Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Those Promises ! The same Promises in Christ that the Saved Jews, or Israelites had in the OT times !

This is the Hope of Israel, no not the Physical Jews of that Nation, but the Israelites indeed !

beloved57
November 16th, 2011, 05:45 PM
For this cause, the OT Prophets, when speaking of Israel's hope of the future, they used terms that they and their hearers could understand, but these things have now been explained by the Apostles,[ after they received the Holy Ghost]and their interpretation, showing that God's ultimate design or purpose has been fulfilled in Christ and the Church, His Body. The Nationalistic overtones of the prophets have been applied to that of the universal calling of both Jew and gentile in One Body Rom 15:8-12

8Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

9And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.

10And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.

11And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.

12And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

This is the same reign as spoken of here Lk 1:33

And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Yes, it is the promise of the same reign ! Also the passage here Rom 15:8-12 is very similar to Rom 11, describing the grafting in of the Gentiles among the people of God, that is the people of faith of the Old Covenant !

beloved57
November 18th, 2011, 07:38 AM
Jesus told a woman a truth that many ignore today, and that is this Jn 4:22-24

22Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Jesus says here that Salvation is of the Jews, but He did not mean the Physical Jew or those Jews that were merely Abraham's Physical Seed according to the Flesh Rom 9:8

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

No, Jesus means those Jews that were True Worshipers, those who Worshiped in Spirit and in Truth, which means they had to be born of God's Spirit, they had to have that circumcision which is of the Heart. Paul wrote of it here Rom 2:28-29

28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Yes, that is the Jew that Salvation is of, only those who received circumcision of the heart.

Abraham had received it, Isaac also, and so did Jacob. King David as well !

The Phillipian Jailor received it who was a Roman Solider ! He became a Believer in Christ Acts 16:30-33

30And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

32And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

33And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

Now sometimes after this, Paul wrote a Letter to his converts in Phillipi and this is what He wrote Phil 3:3

3For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

Now compare that statement with #1 Jesus statement Jn 4:24

24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

And Paul's inspired words in Rom 2:29

29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Yes, the Roman Soldier who was not an ethnic jew, was a Spiritual Jew which had received circumcision of the Heart or Paul did not include him in His statement of Phil 3:3 when he said to all believers there Phil 3:3

3For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

Notice Paul said that we are the circumcision and rejoice in Christ Jesus ! Now did not the Philippian Jailor after his conversion and his house rejoice in Christ Jesus ? Acts 16:34

34And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house

In fact, Paul more than likely had that incident in mind when He wrote that portion pf the Phillipian letter ! This is indisputable scripture evidence that non ethnic jews are recognized by God as Jews Spiritually, the circumcision which worship God in Spirit !

beloved57
November 20th, 2011, 08:31 PM
Phil 3:3

3For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

Now those of you that are not familiar with the Term Circumcision, it is another name for the jews or the Israelites. To be of the circumcision was to be a jew, a Physical descendant of Abraham. Remember when Paul was describing his ministry work as opposed to the other Apostles, James, Peter and John, whose ministry work was primarily to the Physical jews, He stated that his ministry was to the uncircumcision, the gentiles, but there's unto the circumcision, the jews ! Gal 2:9

And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

So Abraham's Physical descendants are called Circumcision, and Abraham's Spiritual descendants, Believers in Christ, no matter what ethnicity, are called Circumcision which is Israel, for that is the reason for Paul's comment of twain Israel's in Rom 9:6, and that's the reason for twain Circumcisions, and that is the reason for twain "seed's of Abraham" !

beloved57
November 23rd, 2011, 09:04 AM
Gal 6:14-16

14But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

15For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

16And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

In the original it is :

ton Israhl tou qeou.

The Israel of God preceded by the definite Article TON ! This denotes the one and only Israel of God. This Israel's hope has nothing to do with ethnicity, physical circumcision, but rests upon vs 14 " the Cross of our Lord Jesus Christ" from which proceeds the New Creation. His Cross produces New Creatures, and that is who Israel is ! These belong to Christ and are the seed of Abraham Gal 3:29

29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


The Promise of Israel being saved Isa 45:17

But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

This Israel shall Glory In the Cross for it's Salvation, not their fleshly ethnicity, nor their circumcision !

beloved57
November 25th, 2011, 11:36 PM
That Christ and His Church fulfill OT Prophecy is seen from this 1 Cor 15:51-57

51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Now what is the saying that was written that will then be brought to pass ?

It is here Isa 25:8

8He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

And vs 55 is the fulfillment of this Prophecy Hosea 13:14

14I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.

NOW who is the them that God is promising to ransom here ? Look at vs 9 Hosea 13:9

9 O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in me is thine help.


This Promise to Israel was or will be fulfilled at the Second Coming of Christ for His Church...When the Dead in Christ shall rise first !

beloved57
November 29th, 2011, 07:40 AM
If God ever gives us to understand the scriptures, we will be able to see that the NT Church of Christ and the OT Saints are of the same, the Church of Christ ! Paul in writing to the Church at Rome in the 8th chapter writes Rom 8:33-39

33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. 37Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

38For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Notice Paul asks in vs 35 " Who shall separate us from the Love of Christ"

So Christ's Love is the subject ! Then he refers back to scripture that has been written to connect it with the Love of CHRIST ! vs 36

The scripture Paul is referring to is here Ps 44:22

22Yea, for thy sake are we killed all the day long; we are counted as sheep for the slaughter.

Now who are the we of this verse ? vs 17

17All this is come upon us; yet have we not forgotten thee, neither have we dealt falsely in thy covenant.

18Our heart is not turned back, neither have our steps declined from thy way;

It is the remnant of the Election of Grace in Israel that had an eye to the Covenant concerning Christ ! That Covenant confirmed before in Christ Gal 3:16-17

16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

17And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

The covenant that the saints around at the birth of Christ recognized as here Lk 1:67-73

67And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,

68Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

69And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;

70As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

71That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;

72To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

73The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,


Our Father Abraham is not meaning the Father of the unbelieving reprobated ethnic jews, for Christ knew Abraham was not their Father in that sense from His words to some of them here Jn 8:39

They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

So that is not what is meant, but Abraham as the Father of the Faithful as here Rom 4:16

Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

That's who Zacharias , John's Father meant when he said " the oath which He [God] sware to our Father Abraham in vs 73

So this Promise belongs to the Church, which was the Promise of Christ, who is the Head of His Body the Church, and if we belong to Christ, then are we Abraham's Seed that the promises pertain to Gal 3:29

And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The same promise Zacharias means in Lk 1:72

72To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

This connects as well the OT saints with the NT Saints the Church, for they were all Heirs of the Same Promise Christ, the Head of the Church.. This promise was made to the Saints, or the Church since the world began Lk 1:70

70As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

So technically that is how Long the Church has been in existence , since the world began !

beloved57
December 18th, 2011, 07:15 PM
God gave Land Promises to His People via Abraham the Father of the Faithful , lets remember that Abraham was not a Unbeliever !

Gen 13:15

15For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.

Gen 17:8

8And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

Gen 26:3-4

3Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;

4And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

Now remember all the Promises of God are in Him [Christ] yea and amen to the Glory of God 2 Cor 1:20

20For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

The land promises were typical and had a Two-Fold application and fulfillment, one to His [Abraham] Physical Seed, and one to His Spiritual Seed, however the Spiritual Seed could and did partake in the fulfillment of the physical land promises, but only the Spiritual Seed partake in the Spiritual Fulfillment, which is bestowed through the Spiritual Blessings in Christ, which includes receiving the Spirit through Faith Gal 3:14

14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

So Christ and the Spiritual Blessings bestowed upon all His Spiritual Seed are the Fulfillment Spiritually of the Land Promises, their Inheritance Col 1:12

12Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

This was an Heavenly Inheritance and Lot, the One Abraham by Faith looked for Heb 11:13-16


13These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

14For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.

15And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

16But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Notice vs 14 " They seek a country" The word country is the greek word patris and means:

one's native country

a) one's fatherland, one's own country, a fixed abode or home

b) one's own native place i.e. a city

Yes, Heaven was that Country, that Land they sought as a result of the Land Promise, the Everlasting Canaan Gen 17:8

8And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

beloved57
December 18th, 2011, 07:58 PM
Col 1:12

12Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

Paul's wording "inheritance" is a term used from OT language, under the Old Covenant, and it has to do with allotment Numbers 26:52-56

52And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

53Unto these the land shall be divided for an inheritance according to the number of names.

54To many thou shalt give the more inheritance, and to few thou shalt give the less inheritance: to every one shall his inheritance be given according to those that were numbered of him.

55Notwithstanding the land shall be divided by lot: according to the names of the tribes of their fathers they shall inherit.

56According to the lot shall the possession thereof be divided between many and few.

Joshua 14:1-5

1And these are the countries which the children of Israel inherited in the land of Canaan, which Eleazar the priest, and Joshua the son of Nun, and the heads of the fathers of the tribes of the children of Israel, distributed for inheritance to them.

2By lot was their inheritance, as the LORD commanded by the hand of Moses, for the nine tribes, and for the half tribe.

3For Moses had given the inheritance of two tribes and an half tribe on the other side Jordan: but unto the Levites he gave none inheritance among them.

4For the children of Joseph were two tribes, Manasseh and Ephraim: therefore they gave no part unto the Levites in the land, save cities to dwell in, with their suburbs for their cattle and for their substance.

5As the LORD commanded Moses, so the children of Israel did, and they divided the land.

Now Christ and His Salvation fulfill the Spiritual aspect of the Land Promises, and this lasts forever Gen 17:8

8And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

All Believers are Abraham's Seed Gal 3:29

29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Thats who the seed is in Gen 17:8 ! Remember all the Promises of God, including land promises, are 2 Cor 1:20

20For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

beloved57
December 19th, 2011, 07:12 AM
As stated earlier, Christ and the Church, which is the Israel of God Gal :16 and the Spiritual Seed of Abraham Gal 3:29 fulfill the Spiritual Land Promises to Abraham, that Heavenly Land which He and the rest of the Heirs, Isaac and Jacob sought by Faith Heb 11:8-10

8By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

9By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

10For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

However the Physical Land promise to Abraham has already been fulfilled with the Physical entrance into the earthly land of Canaan, a Type of the Heavenly Canaan Gen 17:8, this is confirmed in Joshua 21:43-45

43And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.

44And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.

45There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

You see that ? God fulfilled the Promise of the Physical Land being given to Abraham's Physical descendants, done deal !

Joshua 23:14

14And, behold, this day I am going the way of all the earth: and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the LORD your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, and not one thing hath failed thereof. Done Deal !

Neh 9:6-8

6Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.

7Thou art the LORD the God, who didst choose Abram, and broughtest him forth out of Ur of the Chaldees, and gavest him the name of Abraham;

8And foundest his heart faithful before thee, and madest a covenant with him to give the land of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Jebusites, and the Girgashites, to give it, I say, to his seed, and hast performed thy words; for thou art righteous:
Done Deal, He performed it !

Now whoever cannot see from these scriptures that the Physical Land aspect of the promise to Abraham regarding his seed, has been fulfilled, they are simply blind to the Truth, however the Spiritual fulfillment is through Christ and His Church, the Spiritual Seed of Abraham Gal 3:29

29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

What Heirs according to Promise ? The same Heirs of Promise as in Heb 11:9

9By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

beloved57
December 27th, 2011, 10:49 AM
Many have rejected the Truth that Israel is the Church, no not Israel Abraham's kin folks according to the flesh, for they are not the Children of God Rom 9:8, but Israel according to Promise, those who are Abraham's Children by Faith, which is a Spiritual Israel Gal 3:7

7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Gal 3:29

29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Abraham's Seed is the Church ! Who can deny that without denying Gal 3:29 ? It tells us that those who belong to Christ, which is His Church, are Abraham's seed.

That the Church belongs to Christ is seen here Eph 5:23,25

For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ[Abraham's Seed] is the head of the church: and he is the Saviour of the body.

Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ[The Seed of Abraham Gal 3:16] also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

1 Cor 12:12

12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

So the Church is called the Seed of Abraham !

The Church is called the Temple of God Speaking to the Church of Corinth, Paul calls them this 1 Cor 3:16

Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Remember Jesus said that He was going to build His Church Matt 16:18

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Well, thats the Temple of Eph 2:21-22

21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Now the same greek word is used here Eph 2:22 for builded as it is in Matt 16:16 for build. The word Eph just has the prefix sun which means together. That is, the Church, the Temple is being built with both jew and gentile material, or living stones 1 Pet 2:5

Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

So the Church is a Spiritual House ! A Temple !

beloved57
December 30th, 2011, 11:04 AM
That Israel and the Church are the same , is because God only has one Peculiar People Deut 14:2

For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.

The word peculiar is the hebrew word cĕgullah
and means:


possession, property

a) valued property, peculiar treasure

b) treasure

Now Paul writes to the Church Titus 2:14

14Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.


The greek word here for peculiar is periousios:

that which is one's own, belonging to one's possessions

a) a people selected by God from the other nations for his own possession

Now God does not have Two sets of peculiar People, but Just One, and that is the Church, the Elect in Christ, washed in His precious blood, this too proves that Israel in Deut 14:2 and the Church are the same, the One Peculiar People !

beloved57
January 2nd, 2012, 07:28 PM
Make Manifest to Israel !

Jn 1:31

And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.

But remember Rom 9:6

6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

So the question is which Israel is John the Baptist referring to ?

The Israel here that Jesus should be made Manifest to it the Israel of God, the Election of Grace, the Church ! It began with the Disciples, save judas, that He manifest himself to. They with a few others were the Israel of God at the time.

John says in 1 Jn 1:1-2

1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

2(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us )

Notice, The Apostle John used the same word Manifest ! Also Jn 17:6

I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

Jesus will be manifested to all the Israel of God,, The Church !

beloved57
January 5th, 2012, 11:16 AM
We know that the Church and israel are the same by the descriptive imagery John beheld in His Vision of the Revelation. Notice how the Churches of asia minor are described. The Seven Golden Candlsticks which represent the Churches of God ! Rev 1:20

The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

That which God bought with His Own Blood Acts 20:28

28Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Now without question the calling the Churches Candlesticks is pointing back to the OT Tabernacle abd Temple Sanctuaries.

Ex 25:31-40

31And thou shalt make a candlestick of pure gold: of beaten work shall the candlestick be made: his shaft, and his branches, his bowls, his knops, and his flowers, shall be of the same.

32And six branches shall come out of the sides of it; three branches of the candlestick out of the one side, and three branches of the candlestick out of the other side:

33Three bowls made like unto almonds, with a knop and a flower in one branch; and three bowls made like almonds in the other branch, with a knop and a flower: so in the six branches that come out of the candlestick.

34And in the candlesticks shall be four bowls made like unto almonds, with their knops and their flowers.

35And there shall be a knop under two branches of the same, and a knop under two branches of the same, and a knop under two branches of the same, according to the six branches that proceed out of the candlestick.

36Their knops and their branches shall be of the same: all it shall be one beaten work of pure gold.

37And thou shalt make the seven lamps thereof: and they shall light the lamps thereof, that they may give light over against it.

38And the tongs thereof, and the snuffdishes thereof, shall be of pure gold.

39Of a talent of pure gold shall he make it, with all these vessels.

40And look that thou make them after their pattern, which was shewed thee in the mount.

beloved57
January 10th, 2012, 11:51 AM
Lk 2:25-26

25And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israell: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.

26And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.

This Proves that the Church and Israel are the Same, that is Spiritual Israel. For Christ here who is said to be the Consolation of Israel, is the Head of the Church, and the consolation of the Church !

Paul writing to the Church at Rome wrote this Rom 15:5

5Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus:

To the Church at Philippi Phil 2:1

1If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,

2 Thess 2:16

16Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

Heb 6:18

18That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

Remember Jesus Preached Matt 5:4

Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.

Isa 61:2

1The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

2To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

Paul again to the Church 2 Cor 1:6

6And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation.

beloved57
January 19th, 2012, 08:23 AM
We know that the Church in the NT and Israel in the OT are the same when we compare and consider what is stated about Zion Isa 46:13 with what is stated about the Church Eph 3:21

Isa 46:13

13I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.

Eph 3:21

21Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

For Zion and the Church are the same !

beloved57
February 20th, 2012, 03:25 AM
Eph 2:16,11

16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

What is both here ? vs 11

11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

Both means the circumcision [jews] and the uncircumcision [gentiles], Paul said both the religious jews and the pagan gentiles, both needed to be reconciled to God through the Cross.

This tells us that merely being an ethnic jew , circumcised See Phil 3:5, this meant nothing as regards to Salvation, as regards a relationship with the True God. Paul was brought to this understanding Phil 3:5-7 and Gal 6:15

Many deluded souls today are trusting in their Physical Relationship with Abraham, being a Physical jew, to put them in favor with God ! Those who do such despise the Cross of Christ..

beloved57
February 28th, 2012, 08:42 PM
Eph 5:29-32

29For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

30For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

31For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

32This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

You see, Christ and the Church were pictured from the beginning of time, beginning with Adam and Eve; so why is it that people reject the Truth of Christ's Church being in the OT, in fact, it began with Adam and Eve. Christ's coming in the flesh is traced back to Adam Lk 3:23-38.

John the baptist, clearly an Old Covenant saint acknowledges the Bridegroom, Christ Jn 3:29

29He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

Who is Christ's Bride ? It is the Church. How did John the Baptist know this ? Of course John's knowledge of the church was incomplete, for it was a Mystery, but God did give him to understand that their was a special People in the world, and he knew it was not the jews, for John said to some of them Matt 3:7-10

7But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

8Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. Note: not all of Abraham's Seed are of jewish descent ! Gal 3:29 !

10And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Paul tells the Church at Corinth, 2 Cor 11:2-3


2For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

3But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Eve was the Mother of the Church, that is of all Living Gen 3:20

And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

Her and Adam were the Church from the beginning !

beloved57
March 2nd, 2012, 10:31 AM
The Lord Jesus Christ identifies Himself as the Bride Groom Matt 9:15

15And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast. See also Jn 3:29

And OT Scripture would Identify Israel's Bridegroom as Yahweh Isa 62:5

For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.

Also Hosea 2:19-20

19And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies.

20I will even betroth thee unto me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know the LORD. cp Matt 25:10

10And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

These scriptures tell us Two Things if we are born of God, #1 That Jesus Christ is Jehovah the Bridegroom of Israel, and Secondly, that the Bride Israel is the Church !

beloved57
March 8th, 2012, 01:24 AM
We know the Church is Israel and ask, how could not the Church had been in the OT economy, when Paul writes of NT Believers in Christ, the Church that Abraham is the Father of us all ? Rom 4:16

Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

The word father here is the greek word patēr and means:


a more remote ancestor, the founder of a family or tribe, progenitor of a people, forefather: so Abraham is called, Jacob and David

Our English word for father is defined as:


a male parent.


a father-in-law, stepfather, or adoptive father.


any male ancestor, especially the founder of a race, family, or line; progenitor.


a man who exercises paternal care over other persons; paternal protector or provider: a father to the poor.

a person who has originated or established something

He is the founder of a Family by God's appointment, the Family of Faith.

Paul is writing to the Church at Rome, those whom He had heard of their Faith Rom 1:7-8

7To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

8First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

Now , who wants to explain how the Church could not have been in the OT, when it's Father is ? The Church in the NT are His Spiritual Children by God : Gal 3:7

Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

But one may object, that's talking about Abraham's Spiritual Children of Faith,and that would be exactly right, and all of Abraham's Spiritual Children of Faith in the OT are the Church also. That would be Isaac and Jacob Heb 11:20,21

By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.

By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.

King David, Moses and etc are All the Children of Abraham by Faith Gal 3:7

The Household of Faith is the Church and it commenced way before the NT era began, in fact it began as early as Abel Heb 11:4

4By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

You see, Abraham could not have been the Father of the Faithful in the NT which clearly is the Church, and it not also apply to the Children of Faith in the OT ! We are all of the same Father !

beloved57
April 8th, 2012, 07:54 PM
Acts 13:23,42

23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

Why did the Gentiles seek Paul to Preach to them the very same Message on the next Sabbath, Notice from Vs 23-42 What was requested of Paul:

42And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

There was a reason for this, It is because Being a Saviour to Israel is the same as Christ being a Saviour to His Body Eph:23

23For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the Saviour of the body.

For His Body is Israel which is comprised of gentiles, and Israel is His Body. So when it says that He [Christ risen] gives repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel as Per Acts 5:31

31Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

He is giving repentance to that which He is the Head of His Body the Church which is comprised of gentiles, so we read also Acts 11:18

18When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Yes, Israel and the Body of Christ are the Same entity !

beloved57
April 10th, 2012, 07:45 AM
Scripture complements scripture, and when we read in the OT something said or repeated in fashion in the NT, we can figure they are the same subjects, Like when God indicates that Israel is His Inheritance separated from other peoples of the earth by His own Sovereignty 1 Kings 8:51-53

51For they be thy people, and thine inheritance, which thou broughtest forth out of Egypt, from the midst of the furnace of iron:

52That thine eyes may be open unto the supplication of thy servant, and unto the supplication of thy people Israel, to hearken unto them in all that they call for unto thee.


For thou didst separate them from among all the people of the earth, to be thine inheritance, as thou spakest by the hand of Moses thy servant, when thou broughtest our fathers out of Egypt, O LORD God.

Now in the NT it is written that the saints at Ephesus are God's Inheritance Eph 1:15-18

15Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,

16Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;

17That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

18The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

This is the same inheritance of God's people but just in different generations of Time !

Now, where all the jews without exception in 1 Kings 8:53 God's Inheritance ? No, only a Election of Grace within her !

Same with Eph 1:18 were all the people in Ephesus God's Inheritance without exception ? No, but only the Faithful and Chosen in Christ Jesus among them ! Eph 1:1-4

1Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

2Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Just as there were some in Ephesus Chosen in Christ Jesus before the foundation, there were some in 1 Kings 8:53 Chosen in Christ Jesus before the foundation, and they all are God's Inheritance !

beloved57
April 10th, 2012, 08:41 AM
Col 1:27

To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

The Mystery was Christ in you the Hope of Glory ! This is the Hope and mystery of the OT Saints also known as Israel. The prophets were moved by this Hope in them 1 Pet 1:9-11


9Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

10Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Now that Glory that shall follow is connected to that Hope of Glory of Col 1:27 ! The difference is, that in this passage this hope is revealed to be also for some gentiles !

Isa 46:13

I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.

Yes, that is the Hope of Glory that belonged to Israel of Old which included Gentiles. This Glory is premised on Christ's Righteousness revealed in the Gospel Rom 1:16-17

Christ in you, the Hope of Glory Jn 17:23,24,26

I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.


And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

This is Israel's Glory always ! Isa 45:25

In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

The Gentiles was part of that Seed Gal 3:8

8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

And so the promise is sure to all the Seed Rom 4:16

Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

What seed ? Isa 45:25

25In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

beloved57
April 16th, 2012, 01:18 PM
1 Cor 3:11

11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Eph 2:20

And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;


If Christ, who is the Head of the Body , the Church, is the foundation stone of which the Apostles and Prophets are founded upon, we know the Apostles belong to the Church, The Body of Christ Eph 4:11-12


11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Also 1 Cor 12:28-29

28And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

Then why reject the Truth that the OT Prophets of Israel, like Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel etc also belong to the Church, the body of Christ, Christ being the chief cornerstone ?

beloved57
April 28th, 2012, 04:41 PM
Eph 3:6

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:


That the Gentiles are fellowheirs and partakers of same Gospel Promises as Covenant Israel, means that they are included in the New Covenant Promises to the House of Israel as Per Heb 8:6-8

6But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

7For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Yes, The Gentiles were included in these New Covenant promises !

The New Covenant is that Gospel Promise by which all Israel shall be saved ! Isa 45:17

But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

That is what Paul means as the Gospel in Eph 3:6. That is why when all the Gentile Elect that are grafted into Covenant Israel, throughout this Gospel Dispensation, then All Israel shall be Saved[Rom 11:26] as Promised in Isa 45:17 ! This also confirms that Covenant Israel, not national Israel that was blinded, but Covenant Israel, the Election of Grace in that Nation, that is why it and the Church are the Same Body as Per Eph 3:6

6That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

beloved57
May 8th, 2012, 08:34 AM
When Christ died, He gave Himself for the Church Eph 5:25

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

When He resurrected, He rose as the Head of the Church ! And to make it plain that the OT Saints also were part of the Church, His Body, many of the Saints of the OT rose at His Death Matt 27:50-53

50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

beloved57
May 15th, 2012, 08:48 AM
The Church is composed of the Twelve Tribes of Spiritual Israel ! For they are the proper Heirs of the Gospel Inheritance and Promises through Christ ! Eph 3:6

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Paul is speaking of the promise that the patriarchs received by Faith !

They, the Gentiles partake of the Promises and are heirs to them as Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob Heb 11:8-9


8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

Now these Twelve Tribes of Spiritual Israel Rev 7:4-8

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

They are the fruit of, the Church's Twelve Apostles, whom Christ ordained to bear much fruit, and that their fruit should remain Jn 15:16

Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

The Fruit of the Apostles Doctrines and Teaching, produces or brings to light the Twelve Tribes of Spiritual Israel, which is none other than the Church, the Body of Christ, who is also Israel of God !

beloved57
May 21st, 2012, 07:01 AM
Rom 9:6-8

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Abraham's natural children or seed of the flesh, was merely a type of His Spiritual Seed Israel. Ethnic jews alone, being born merely jews simply by natural generation, are not God's People, but belong to the devil as any other people. They are not the children of God Rom 9:8 and have no promises at all from God ! The only Children of God amongst the jews, and had a right to be called so, where the ones who were believing on the name of the Son of God Jn 1:12-13, so quite frankly this means, being of ethnic jewish descent did not constitute one a child of God. The only Children of God the bible knows of and have a right to be called or declared so, are those of Faith Gal 3:26

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

So it is correct to say, no one, jew or gentile has the right to say they are the children of God, or they are the Chosen of God, who doth not manifest or give evidence of Faith in Christ ! Millions today say that the unbelieving jews in the middle east are God's Chosen, even though they in the majority give no evidence of Faith in Christ, they are designated God's Children or Chosen simply because of their flesh, which is unscriptural ! One of the biggest lies in false religion today is that reprobated jews are God's Chosen Children, but they are not, and neither is their any salvation promised to any but God's Children which have been chosen in Christ before the foundation. How can a ethnic jew, whose only birth is that of the flesh, be considered scripturally a child of God, and elect of God, for that contradicts Rom 9:8

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

beloved57
May 28th, 2012, 06:09 AM
1 Cor 15:20

But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

When it states that Christ became the Firstfuits of them that slept, its speaking of all the Old Covenant Saints going back to the beginning of the world, whom all had a interest in His Death Lk 9:29-31

29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.

30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:

31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

From them to those whom died before His Second Coming in the New Covenant era, who at His coming shall raise them up. Also since this doctrine was delivered to the Church, of which Christ is the Head of, then both Old Covenant and New Covenant Saints are all His Own One Body, the Church, and So He is for all if them, The Firstfruits in His Resurrection from the Dead !

beloved57
May 29th, 2012, 01:03 PM
Jer 50:20

In those days, and in that time, saith the LORD, the iniquity of Israel shall be sought for, and there shall be none; and the sins of Judah, and they shall not be found: for I will pardon them whom I reserve.

These are God's Elect, to whom God will not lay any charge Rom 8:33

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Israel and Judah here is not speaking of Abraham's children of the flesh, but His Spiritual Children with the faith of Christ, who have received of the New Covenant blessings which is in His Blood. The Promise to them was Heb 8:6,8,12

6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: See Matt 26:28

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Thats because of the Promise of Jer 50:20

All of this was premised on the Blood of Christ Eph 1:7

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

beloved57
June 4th, 2012, 07:44 PM
The 144000 was redeemed from among men, not from among ethnic jews Rev 14:1-4

And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

The word earth here is used 70 times in Revelation and not once is it confined to ethnic jews only !

These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

The word men is anthrōpos and means:

human being, whether male or female

a) generically, to include all human individuals

This indicates Spiritual Israel, God's Elect from amongst mankind, not from among ethnic jews

They are those redeemed from among men by the Blood of Christ ! The same as in Rev 5:9

And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

beloved57
June 5th, 2012, 07:40 AM
Acts 26:6-7

6 And now I stand and am judged because of the hope of the promise made by God unto our fathers,

7 unto which promise our twelve tribes, earnestly serving God day and night, hope to come. For this hope’s sake, King Agrippa, I am accused by the Jews.

Paul Preached the Hope of the Jewish Fathers, of the promise made by God unto them !

And yet, for that Hope, He was accused of the jews ! Why is that ?

Why was Paul accused of the ethnic jews of his time, of the hope He shared in common with the Twelve Tribes, that He clarifies as earnestly serving God day and night of hope to come ! Was it not the same Hope ? Evidently not ! So the Hope of the then twelve Tribes who were instantly serving God and of the Fathers, yes the Jewish Fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and Paul was not the same hope of those ethnic jews who accused and opposed Paul's Hope !

This was not the same Hope Paul had before his conversion when he followed scrupulously the jews religion, we gather that from his words here Phil 3:4-11

4 though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath grounds to trust in the flesh, I have more:

5 circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; according to the law, a Pharisee;

6 concerning zeal, persecuting the church; as to the righteousness before the law, blameless.

7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted as loss for Christ.

8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things and count them but dung, that I may win Christ

9 and be found in Him, not having mine own righteousness which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith,

10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being made conformable unto His death,

11 that if by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

So it is clear, that the Hope Paul had, and that of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the Jewish Fathers, and the current Twelve tribes who were serving God instantly, was not the same hope of the majority of the other ethnic jews who accused Paul ! Who knows why ?

beloved57
June 5th, 2012, 08:48 AM
When Paul preached the Gospel of Jesus Christ, to either Jew or Gentile, the same Gospel Rom 1:16, He was proclaiming to the Jews the fulfillment of God's Promises to that people per Acts 13:26-33

26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God[Gentiles like Cornelius who feared God Acts 10], to you is the word of this salvation sent.

27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.

28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain.

29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.

30 But God raised him from the dead:

31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.

32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,

33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

But what was not so realized before, that Gentile Men and Women of other Nations also partake of this fulfillment through Christ of the promises made to the Fathers Eph 3:6

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

So the Gospel of Jesus Christ and His accomplishment of the Cross for the Church, this was the fulfillment of the Hope of the Twelve Tribes Paul mentions in Acts 26:6-7. The Hope of Israel, the True Israel of God, is not some earthly kingdom of glory for ethnic jews that they shall inherit, that is a main reason why Paul was so accused of the ethnic jews, for since His conversion to Christ and being made a Preacher, He no longer shared those erroneous traditional messianic views, generated by their fleshly minds ! The Promises made to the Jewish Fathers in the Gospel were spiritual and heavenly, and had to do with the Resurrection of Christ. And that these same words being preached in Acts 13 to the jews, was asked to be spoken next sabbath to the gentiles also, indicates that they were to be partakers of the same Gospel promises as to the Fathers Eph 3:6, we have it here in Acts 13 these words Acts 13:37-42

37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.

38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:

39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

40 Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets;

41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.

42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

beloved57
June 5th, 2012, 09:15 AM
Isa 45:17

But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

The True Israel of God shall be saved with an everlasting Salvation as promised, and this Israel is comprised of both jew and gentile believers in Christ. The Gentile addition is what Paul calls their grafting in the Covenant Tree Rom 11:17

And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Acts 4:12

Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

This True Israel of God that SHALL be saved, not one them lost, is the Church of Christ whom He gave Himself for Eph 5:25

beloved57
June 5th, 2012, 04:30 PM
Folks contrary to what false teachers teach regarding the Hope Of Israel Acts 28:20, it was never an earthly hope at all, but a spiritual and heavenly one, for this we know from Heb 11:9-16

9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.

15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

This passage of scripture gives us to understand that Abraham with Sarah, Isaac and Jacob, all heirs of the same promise, the Hope of Israel, that they were strongly persuaded with God given Faith on the promise of God, which Promise was not of this earth, because by embracing the Promise, they acknowledged themselves to be strangers and pilgrims to the Earth Heb 11:13, with expectations of a better country, yes even much better than the earthly land of Canaan they were then living in tents in, which served to only typify the land of promise expectation Gen 17:8

8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

But the Land they desired set forth in God's promise was Heavenly and Spiritual Heb 11:16. The Land of Canaan that was promised Abraham and His Seed Gen 17:5-8 was Heaven, and it is the same exact Heavenly Inheritance that is realized by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, which all the seed is begotten unto a Lively Hope, and Inheritance that is reserved in Heaven 1 Pet 1:3-5

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,[ This is the Canaan of Gen 17:8]

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Folks the Hope of Israel was not to Abraham and His Physical Seed, but to Him and His Spiritual Seed, through the Resurrection of Christ from the dead !

beloved57
June 6th, 2012, 08:47 AM
Zion and the Church are the same when we consider Ps 132:13-14

13 For the Lord hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation.

14 This is my rest for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it.

Now Eph 2:22

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Both are Chosen by God Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

This is the Chosen habitation of Ps 132:13-14

For God does not have Two Chosen Habitations, but only One !

beloved57
June 7th, 2012, 09:45 AM
Isa 43:20-21

20 The beast of the field shall honour me, the dragons and the owls: because I give waters in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert, to give drink to my people, my chosen.

21 This people have I formed for myself; they shall shew forth my praise.

Notice, that they, these Gentiles, that God formed for Himself, they shall shew forth God's Praise, as stated in 1 Pet 2:9

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Notice also God calls these Gentiles, whom the jews considered beasts, He called them His Chosen, and His People vs 20 !

This also should give us to understand that when it is said that Jesus shall save His People from their sins Matt 1:21, that included Gentiles also !

beloved57
June 12th, 2012, 02:58 PM
Rom 11:7

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Paul here under inspiration makes it crystal clear that the ethnic nation of Israel in it's entirety was not the Chosen, or Elect people of God, but only a Remnant according to the Election of Grace. The rest of that nation as a whole was blinded, and therefore as a whole were not the Chosen People of God. So it is super folly to suppose a None Elect people have a hope with God, for ethnicity does not merit God's Favor, for if it did, why were the majority of ethnic jews of Israel blinded in the first place , save the election of grace.

Also, those who did not belong to the election of grace in Rom 11:7, do not become a part of the election of grace later , so they and all other ethnic jews outside of the election of grace, not race, are without hope of Salvation !

beloved57
June 12th, 2012, 05:32 PM
We have previously showed already that the Hope of Israel, that which Paul had as an ethnic jew and the Twelve Tribes that instantly serve God Acts 26:7

Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews.

Was not the same Hope of the Apostate nation of jews, those who accused Paul. The Hope Paul had and any Spiritual Jew has, as did Abraham, Sarah, Isaac and Jacob, was a Spiritual Hope, a Heavenly Hope, one of which constituted them to see themselves as strangers and pilgrims on this earth, even in the physical land of Palestine !! Heb 11:13

These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

The confessed this, the word confess here is the greek word homologeō
and means:

to say the same thing as another, i.e. to agree with, assent

to profess

a) to declare openly, speak out freely

b) to profess one's self the worshipper of one

They declared openly their Faith in a Heavenly Home.

Also this is the same designation Peter had for believers in here 1 Pet 2:11

Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;

Remember Peter is writing to those that had experienced this 1 Pet 1:3-5

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

This is the same Hope that Abraham had . Also the same Hope the gentile believers had in Colosse Col 1:5

For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

Another jewish Apostle had this hope, but more specifically calls it " the promise of a New Heaven and New Earth 2 Pet 3:13

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Yes, that same promise God gave Abraham and His Seed after Him, the Everlasting Canaan Gen 17:5-8, and also what Paul refers to here Rom 4:13-17, notice verse 17, how it refers back to God's Promise to Abraham Gen 17:5

Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

For God hath just declared him to be the Father of many nations [Spiritually] meaning his Children of Faith among the world ! Gal 3:7

Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

They are the ones God meant in Gen 17:5 that Abraham had been by God made a Father of ! And therefore they have the same Hope and promise of Gen 17:8

8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

This is the Hope of Israel !

beloved57
June 20th, 2012, 11:10 PM
Phil 3:1-3

Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe.

2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.

3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

Remember Jesus words here ? Jn 4:24

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

The only way to Worship God, and prove to be of the Circumcision, is to Worship God in the Spirit and rejoice in Christ Jesus !

Thats the True Circumcision. The True Jew is not an ethnic jew, for they are castaways and not the children of God, but the True Jews are described by God's word here Rom 2:28-29

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

A True Jew before God are the Ones who have a New Birth. One who has been blessed inwardly by the Spirit.

Ps 51:6

Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom. Cp Job 38:36

Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart?

Jer 31:33

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

These are Jews, and Rejoice in Jesus Christ, the True Circumcision, that which is of the Heart !

Gurucam
June 21st, 2012, 12:40 AM
Acts 13:23

Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

This was not peter here, but paul, the apostle unto the gentiles, who makes this very important statement, and sheds much light upon for whom Jesus Christ came to save as according to promise..

Another important scripture that lends to the truth of this is Lk 1:68-69


68Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, [see Matt 1: 21]

69And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; 70As he spake [or promised] by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

This promise of redemption of His people, as the Lord God of Israel, hath been revealed and promised since the world began..

This takes us back to the first proclamation of the promised salvation or redemption to Gen 3:15

15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel

This seed of the women would be Israel [Christ and His People]..and the which, salvations first promise is to and for this seed Israel, the seed of the women..

This is some what typed out or signified in Rev 12:1-2

1And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

2And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. [the birth of Jesus Christ]

This women had also a seed as we see later in Rev 12:17

17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

[ so Christ and his Members are the seed of the women Gal 3:16,29]

So salvation and redemption from the conception of the world, had only a particular seed in view, which later became known as Israel..

But now, its important to understand, that the Israel paul is referring to in acts 13:23..is not Israel according to the flesh..but Israel according to Promise..

Lets show here how paul discerned another Israel other than national Israel Rom 9:6

Not as though the word [or promise] of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel [Acts 13:23],] which are of Israel [nationally]:

You see, the promises of redemption and salvation as stated in Lk 1:68-70, to the people of God, the God of Israel, the promise were not to national israel..but a spiritual remnant within that nation, and as we will find out, a spiritual remnant among the nations of the world, which constituted Israel,[Rom 11] the one paul preached in Acts 13:23

Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

Now paul had the Israel of God [Rom 9:6] in view when he made this statement in the above..

Now get this next point, for its tricky, but nevertheless its extremely important because of the symmetry and analogy of scripture.

The difference between what paul preached here in acts 13 :23 and what peter taught here in Acts 5:31

Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

The difference is this..for peter was correct in that Jesus was exalted to the right hand of God to give repentance to a certain chosen people Israel..but what peter did not know but what paul did know..is this:

That Israel was no longer viewed as a mere physical ethnic nation, but that Israel was comprised of Gentiles as well, who became Israel..

Notice..Eph 2:12,19

12That at that time ye [gentiles] were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

They [Gentiles] are now no more strangers and aliens, but fellowcitizens [of Israel Gods chosen people] and so now they also have the same right to be called Israel,

in fact, even more of a right than the non elect jews of that nation..because the Israel of God was never non elect jews, but Elect Jews like Jacob over Esau or Isaac over ishmael..Children of promise..

So salvation and redemption has always been limited unto Israel as a people, but the mystery that was not clearly unveiled since the world began [Gen 3:15]

Eph 3:3-6


3How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;


6That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: [Lk 1: 68-70]

In that Israel was made up of Gentiles also.. Yes thats the unveiling in more detail by Paul of this mystery..[Israel of God was never a physical nation but a Spiritual people or Nation Rom 2,1Pet 2 ]

but nevertheless, true to promise, salvation and redemption is and has always been limited to a chosen people [Israel]..not limited to a certain geographical location as national Israel in the middle east or a certain ethical people [respect of persons], but the scope of this Israel of God is world wide..but nevertheless its only to the world of Gods Israel, all others, are blinded..

You know how paul says in Rom 9: 6

For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:


So likewise, they are not all the world [for whom Christ died] which are of the world [the inhabited earth]

Just like there was an Israel within Israel that God had a respect and favor for, likewise there is a world within the world that God has a special regard for, and that world is the Israel of God, the Spiritual seed of Abraham..

A savior onto Israel is the Spirit as promised by God, to Abraham.

Jesus came in a physical human body to die (by blood sacrifice) for the past sins of Israel according to Moses' ideas. That was phase one. Then Jesus came again to deliver them from future sin. After Jesus' rise to heaven, God sent Jesus back, in His Spirit, to Israel, to save them from future sin. God sent the Spirit of Jesus into the hearts of those under the law, so that they might become adopted children of God. This is fulfillment of God's promise (of the Spirit) to Abraham and his seed. This was the completion of the giving of the path to salvation and deliverance.

The New approach which is through the Spirit, is righteousness of God without the Ten Commandments, without the love commandments, without canons and without the written scriptures.

Now (i.e. since 2000 odd years ago) the Lord is that Spirit and where the Spirit is there liberty.

Those who embrace the Spirit of Jesus and are led into all their works by the Spirit, get no sin even when they transgress the Ten Commandments, the love commandments, the canons and the written scriptures. This is the New Testament, which is the savior onto Israel. Anything else, any other idea, is foolishness with God.

However the very great majority of them blank this offering from God. They ignored and blanked the Spirit as discerned within their own heart. They blanked the God given liberty which are given to them through the Spirit. Because of this many are called and few chosen.

beloved57
July 4th, 2012, 03:52 AM
Jn 4:22

Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

That Salvation is of the jews here, Jesus is not speaking of the ethnic jews at all, for most of them were ignorant of God and idolaters to the traditions of men, but He was speaking of those who were jews inwardly, like those Paul refers to here Phil 3:3

For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

And these Rom 2:29

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

The ethnic jews sought the praises of men more than of God Jn 12:43

For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.

Matt 6:2

Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

Jn 5:44

44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

So Salvation is not from a depraved nation of men whom God blinds Rom 11:7

What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

When Jesus said in Jn 4:22,we know what we worship, He is speaking about born again jews, or anyone who was born again as that matters, but perhaps, for the most part, most true born again people at that time were ethnic jews, but the main point is that they were spiritual Jews with circumcised hearts !

beloved57
July 4th, 2012, 04:21 AM
The True Jews or Circumcision, Rejoice in Jesus Christ as Per Paul Phil 3:3

3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

This shall characterize all the True Seed of Abraham that God promised Him, for they will do as their Father did and as Paul pointed out Jn 8:56

Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Yes, Abraham way back then, shared this in common with Paul and all True Jews, they rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh, as these did whom John the Baptist spake to Matt 3:9

9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Most ethnic jews, unregenerate, as then, have confidence in the flesh, because of their ethnicity and being Abraham's seed according to the flesh, they think they belong to God based upon that, how foolish !

beloved57
July 4th, 2012, 06:45 AM
If the Church, comprised of mostly gentiles is not God's New Covenant People of Jer 31:31-34

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

The explain why Paul the Apostle, and other Apostles were enabled Ministers of the New Testament or Covenant, With Paul Ministry being primarily to the Gentiles. 2 Cor 3:3-6

3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:

5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament or covenant; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Eph 3:1

For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

1 Tim 2:7

Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not ) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

The fact is, the elect jews and gentiles combined are New Covenant Israel Jer 31:31 according to Rom 2:28-29

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

beloved57
July 10th, 2012, 05:14 PM
Abraham was not the first head of Israel, God's Elect People ! No it was Adam !

Lk 3:23-38

23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

24 Which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi, which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Janna, which was the son of Joseph,

25 Which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Amos, which was the son of Naum, which was the son of Esli, which was the son of Nagge,

26 Which was the son of Maath, which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Semei, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Juda,

27 Which was the son of Joanna, which was the son of Rhesa, which was the son of Zorobabel, which was the son of Salathiel, which was the son of Neri,

28 Which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Addi, which was the son of Cosam, which was the son of Elmodam, which was the son of Er,

29 Which was the son of Jose, which was the son of Eliezer, which was the son of Jorim, which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi,

30 Which was the son of Simeon, which was the son of Juda, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Jonan, which was the son of Eliakim,

31 Which was the son of Melea, which was the son of Menan, which was the son of Mattatha, which was the son of Nathan, which was the son of David,

32 Which was the son of Jesse, which was the son of Obed, which was the son of Booz, which was the son of Salmon, which was the son of Naasson,

33 Which was the son of Aminadab, which was the son of Aram, which was the son of Esrom, which was the son of Phares, which was the son of Juda,

34 Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of Isaac, which was the son of Abraham, which was the son of Thara, which was the son of Nachor,

35 Which was the son of Saruch, which was the son of Ragau, which was the son of Phalec, which was the son of Heber, which was the son of Sala,

36 Which was the son of Cainan, which was the son of Arphaxad, which was the son of Sem, which was the son of Noe, which was the son of Lamech,

37 Which was the son of Mathusala, which was the son of Enoch, which was the son of Jared, which was the son of Maleleel, which was the son of Cainan,

38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

This should help one to see and understand that Adam stood for the Elect of God, and we see that according to the Flesh Christ is Adam's Seed, of which it was preached in the beginning that Christ would be of the woman's seed which was Eve at the Time who was under Adam's Headship Gen 3:15, so quite naturally her seed [ Gen 4:25] was Adam's Seed !

beloved57
July 16th, 2012, 04:32 AM
A Saviour unto Israel Acts 13:23

Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

Is just another way of saying that Jesus is the Saviour of His Body the Church Eph 5:23-25

23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the Saviour of the body.


24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

or He gave Himself for Israel !

Now that the OT Prophecies of Salvation coming to God's Chosen People, their redemption, this has been fulfilled at the coming of Jesus Christ and the confirmation of the New Covenant by His Blood; That's why its written in Lk 1:68-70

68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;

70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

Notice vs 68 He has visited and redeemed His People, this is also confirmed by God in Gal 4:4-5

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Yes, the redemption that the prophets looked for Lk 1:70

70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

Was the redemption in Christ Jesus for the Church Rom 3:24-25

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Also Eph 1:7

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

according to the riches of His Grace, this is the grace they [the prophets foresaw 1 Pet 1:10


10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

But the apostate jews and even some of the elect among them were looking for a political and national redemption, instead of a Spiritual One that lied in the Blood of Christ. However Spiritual Jews like John the Baptist's Father Zacharias did understand it [redemption] was Spiritual Lk 1:74-77

71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;

72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,

75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

76 And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;

77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

So he knew of the remission or forgiveness of sins associated with this redemption he just spoke of in vs 68, and so he knew and spoke of this Eph 1:7

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Which is clearly for the Church Chosen in Christ from the foundation of the world Eph 1:4 Cp with Lk 1:70

This Redemption by the Blood of Christ, even the forgiveness of sins, so we see that he had been given a spiritual knowledge of the People Israel the Church !

OMEGA
July 16th, 2012, 04:35 AM
They walk among us ?????????!!!!!!!:noway::noway:

What are you doing B57 ?

Are you writing a Book here or giving a Sermon???

beloved57
July 16th, 2012, 07:22 AM
Eph 3:9

And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

What is this Fellowship of the Mystery ? It is the fact that under the New Covenant administration 2 Cor 3:6-9

6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

This ministration established by the Blood of Christ, that both ethnic jews of faith and gentiles of faith, constitute the commonwelth of Israel, the Household of Faith Eph 2:12,19

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

BTW even under the OC the ethnic jews who were not of Faith, even they were as gentiles, strangers from the covenants of promise, neither were they of the saints of the household of Faith, only a very small remnant was !

So now under the New Covenant economy of the Spirit, this fact is more clearly set forth, and that both saved jews and saved gentiles, people of faith constitute Israel, the People of God, The Israel of God, ,that Israel that shall be saved in the Lord Jesus Christ ! Isa 45:17,22

But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.


22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

God is speaking about the same people being saved here in vs 22 as He was in vs 17 !

Thats the Mystery !

beloved57
July 21st, 2012, 04:35 PM
Rom 11:7

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election[Israel] hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

There is no plainer scripture in the NT that reveals that ethnic Israel as a ethnic nation was not God's Chosen People [Deut 7:6-7], remember Matt 22:14

For many are called, but few are chosen.

Paul had already in the epistle of Romans indicated that there were Two Israel's Rom 9:6

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

And these are the same Two pointed out in Rom 11:7, for there was a purely ethnic Israel according to the flesh, but also an Israel that pertaineth to the Election or the Chosen Rom 11:7, which is an Election Israel in Christ. Now here in Rom 11:7, the Election of Grace Israel obtained something that the national Israel did not, but did seek after ! Now what was that ? It was redemption Lk 1:68

68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

The discrepancy however is this, that almost all the Nation of Israel expected redemption in a earthly nationalistic sense, whereby the jewish people would be delivered from their physical enemies and given earthly dominance and glory as in the days of King Solomon ;[See Lk 24:21] but that was not the promised redemption hoped for nor promised to the Fathers and Abraham Lk 1:72-73

72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

No, the redemption was spiritual and had to do with Redemption from sin, and the forgiveness of sins, through the coming seed, the Person and Work of Jesus Christ, Abraham's Seed Gal 3:16. So the nation as a whole, saving the very small remnant of grace, which was also Israel Rom 9:6, failed to obtain that they sought after, But the Election Israel obtained it, evidenced by their Reception of Christ Jn 1:12. So in the Real sense and according to the Faith, Israel Elect did receive the Abrahamic Promises Lk 1:72-73


72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

And also according to the Faith, Israel national did not receive the Promises but was blinded ! So what has been established here is that there were Two Israel's, as it is today, so in Paul's Day, National Israel and Elect Israel or the Election or Paul's statement is absolutely meaningless ! Both Israel's in Rom 9:6 and Rom 11:7 cannot be God's Chosen People, there is only One Election !

beloved57
July 22nd, 2012, 05:47 PM
God has Chosen Zion ! Who is that ?

Ps 132:13-14

13 For the Lord hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation.

14 This is my rest for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it.

Now who is this Zion that God has Chosen ? Its not the ethnic jews, but it is all those He hath Chosen in Christ Jesus Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Its composed of both Jews and Gentiles ! And by them being made Lively Stones by New Birth, by the Resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead 1 Pet 1:3

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

To these it is also said 1 Pet 2:5

5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

From these He erects His Temple, His dwelling place, His resting place forever, and that it is comprised of Gentiles lets Look at Eph 2:21-22

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

For these are the Dwelling that is spoken of back in Ps 132:13-14

13 For the Lord hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation.

14 This is my rest for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it.

This desire of God is fulfilled in and Through His Son the Lord Jesus Christ, and His Body the Church !

beloved57
July 26th, 2012, 10:16 PM
That Natural Israel, Israelites born according to the flesh only, which were cast away, that they were not God's True People is confirmed in Paul's pungent question Rom 11:1,2

I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

And of course the answer is the following " God forbid" ! For God has not cast away His People He foreknew

Vs 2 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

Remember some ethnic jews as well as gentiles shall be yet here Matt 7:23

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you or foreknew: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

So this means, those who were cast away Rom 11:15

15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Those could not have been God's People which He foreknew Rom 11:2, because it is stated there plainly, God has not cast them away !

Now those He did not cast away, obviously the foreknown, they did obtain and were in possession of the Messianic Promises, which is quite clear from Rom 11:7

What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

This remnant, the Election obtained what the cast away nation as a whole had vainly sought after, according to their corrupt natural desires; Yet even with this Divine Illumination, many deceived people, both jew and gentile believe natural, ethnic israel are still God's People ! Can we say " They do believe a Lie" 2 Thess 2:11

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

beloved57
July 31st, 2012, 10:40 PM
The false teaching of a coming day of salvation for ethnic jews or national ethnic israel is contradicted soundly by Paul's teaching here in Rom 2:1-16, for it is pointed out that all men alike, jew and gentile, have heard the Gospel, and it has been God's Purpose for them to hear it, as stated in Rom 1:16, to the jew first and also to the greek; and so it will be at the end of this age, at the second coming of Christ, all men says Paul, jew and gentile, will be judged according to the Gospel and their heart attitude towards it Rom 2:16, Mk 16:15-16; Acts 17:31

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

And ethnic jews do not think you shall escape the Judgment of God in that Day just because you are and ethnic jew or Abraham's seed by the flesh Rom 2:3-12

Vs 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

The Divine retribution will be meted out to the jew first and also to the greek, oh foolish ethnic jew and jew worshipers, there is no respect of persons with God vs 11

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

beloved57
August 5th, 2012, 06:07 PM
Election Israel obtained the Promises , those unto the Fathers Lk 1:72-73

72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

Election Israel obtained the Promises Rom 11:7

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

The Election Israel were those ethnic jews that were the foreknown Rom 11:1-2

I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

These are they of the ethnic jews that along with some gentiles, who were of the Foreknown and Chosen in Christ as Per Rom 8:29

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

beloved57
August 5th, 2012, 07:24 PM
Acts 13:27

27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.

For the most part, except for a very small remnant, the ethnic jews of israel were ignorant of the voice of the prophets, and God's promises announced through them, in that they understood them in a carnal non spiritual manner, when all along they were pertaining to this day of Grace 1 Pet 1:8-12

8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

This they were clueless ! You see, the Gospel that was presently being preached by the Apostles, it was announcing the fulfillment of what the Prophets of the OT Prophesied that would come upon God's Chosen People at the first coming of Christ, the seed of the woman, of Abraham, of David, for it was all culminating in the Redemptive Work of Christ and the Glories that followed !



Now it should go without saying, that if the Election Israel hath obtained the promises that were prophesied of Israel, if they were obtained in Paul's day Rom 11:7

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Then this ought more than inform us, that the land promises attending the promise of Gen 17:8 could not have been a literal physical plot of land ! Or Paul is mistaken when He wrote, the Election hath obtained it Rom 11:7 !

beloved57
August 5th, 2012, 08:40 PM
2 Cor 1:19-20

For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

All the promises of God to Israel, the Church of Christ, are yea in Him [ Jesus Christ the Son of God vs 19]

For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea.

Also, writing to this Church, Paul applies OT Promises to it that were made to Israel 2 Cor 7:1

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

The Promises are quoted right before in 2 Cor 6:17-18

17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Now these promises reach back into the OT here 2 Sam 7:13-14
13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.

14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:

Jer 31:9

They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.

Isa 43:6

I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth;

Hos 1:10

10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

Also the promises, those that of God are in Him [Christ] amen, are the ones referred to here Rom 9:4

4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

Now these promises are being fulfilled to the Covenant Children, the Children of the prophets as per Acts 3:24-25

24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. [Gentiles]

They are being fulfilled by Christ, their risen Saviour and Covenant Head, bestowing Spiritual Blessings upon them, the Election of Grace in Israel Rom 11:7, and also grafting in with them the Election of Grace of the Gentiles, plainly demonstrated by what occurred in Acts 2 [Jews] and Acts 10 [Gentiles], and by this were the promises to the Fathers being fulfilled, those made to Israel.

beloved57
August 5th, 2012, 09:49 PM
Now regarding the Promises of God to Israel, Two things were misunderstood by the ethnic jews in general, that is in their thinking, the promises of God pertained to the earthly and the natural, and not the spiritual and heavenly, which of course the Fathers did, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob did understand this Heb 11:8-16

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.

15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

And the other mistake i Judgment they made, is that they thought that the promises were made to Abraham's natural , physical children after the flesh, that israel, as per Rom 9:8

8 That is, They [Israel vs 6] which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Those Israelites that were born by the Spirit, of which Isaac typified by his miraculous birth Gal 4:29

But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted[B] him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

They therefore failed to realize that the promises were unto Abraham's Favored Spiritual Children of Faith, for promises are obtained through Faith Heb 11:33

Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions.

National Israel as a whole were faithless Rom 9:32

Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

The Promises that were made to ancient spiritual Israel are now being obtained by Faith, Yes Abraham's Children by Faith both Jew and Gentile, the Father of us all Paul wrote Rom 4:11, 12-16

11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

The Israel of God, to whom the promises were made, not israel of ethnicity, but of New Birth of the Spirit, not by physical circumcision, but by that which is of the heart, not Abraham's seed according to the flesh, but according to the Faith of Christ, whom the Promises were originally made Gal 3:16. See also Rom 2:28-28; Phil 3:3; Gal 3:7,16,29 !

beloved57
August 6th, 2012, 06:47 AM
Not that seed which was of the Law, Natural Israel !

There never were any promises of Salvation made to Abraham's physical seed, the nation of Israel, Paul makes that clear here Rom 4:13

For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

However those in spiritual darkness will not accept this Truth ! Heir of World here merely means Heir of Salvation. Remember Sarah said of Ishmael and his Mom this Gal 4:30 See Gen 21:10

Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

But the promises and heirship was made to Abraham and His Seed according to the Righteousness of Faith ! It cannot be put more plainer ! By this, Abraham is the Father of all the Seed Rom 4:16

Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Its plain that Abraham's Seed of Promise, Israel of Promise is comprised of both jew and gentile people's of Faith ! For as it is written, I have made thee a Father of many nations [spiritually] Gen 17:5, that means that God has generated children for Abraham spiritually, who should share with him in like precious faith, not of just the ethnic jews, but out of all Nations !

beloved57
August 6th, 2012, 08:51 AM
Gal 4:30

30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

This the same Truth being confirmed here Rom 11:15

15 For if the casting away of them[non heirs] be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Now the scripture is plain in this analogy that Paul was inspired to use in Gal 4, and that national israel according to the flesh @ Sinai is represented as hagar and her son ishmael Note:

Gal 4:24-25

24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

Which is cast out Gal 4:30


30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

That is national israel according to the flesh, and the promise is "for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman."

That cuts off any hope of a future national israel heirship !

The physical nation of jews that were cast away, were not the people of God, Paul makes that clear Rom 11:1-2

I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

Now that cannot be the People of Rom 11:15 that are cast away Rom 11:15

15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

This casting away is speaking of national israel, which could not have been God's People which He foreknew ! Or we have a big problem with Rom 11:1-2 !

beloved57
August 9th, 2012, 09:07 AM
What did Christ mean here in this verse Matt 21:43

43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Who knows what Nation is Jesus speaking of here ? Is it the Church ? If this Nation is the Church, then what Kind of Nation is it ? Is it Spiritual or natural ? If it is the Church, then is it the seed of Abraham Gal 3:29

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

So what would be another name for a Spiritual Nation of the Seed of Abraham ? Israel !

beloved57
August 9th, 2012, 10:28 PM
If there was none other scripture passage that shows us that The Church and Israel are the same, its this Passage in Acts 15. What does James mean in that passage of Acts 15 of the rebuilding of the Tabernacle of David ? Or the restoration of the Kingdom ? Acts 15:11-18

11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.

13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:

14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

This is actually what it means for the Restoration of the Kingdom to Israel of Acts 1:6, and James by the power of the Holy Spirit applies the OT Prophecies to substantiate that.

Lets notice Amos 9:11-12

11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:

12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the Lord that doeth this.

This is in the context of the restoration of Israel and notice how He [James] by the power of the Holy Spirit connects that Prophecy with what was then going on with the Church in Jerusalem and the Gentiles !

Lets compare Amos 9:12

12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the Lord that doeth this.

With Acts 15:17

17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

He also utilizes Isa 46:10

Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Cp Acts 15:18

18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.


This should more than enlighten us that the formation of the Jew and Gentile Church in Christ is the restoring of the Kingdom to Israel, the Israel of God, yes that Seed of Israel that in the Lord [Jesus Christ] shall be Justified and Glory Isa 45:25

25 In the Lord shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory. CP

1 Cor 1:31

31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

beloved57
August 10th, 2012, 06:47 AM
In Acts 15:13-18 James quote of the Prophecy Amos 9:11 is being applied to the Present New Covenant Era inaugurated by the Cross of Christ, His Blood shed of Matt 26:28

28 For this is my blood of the new testament or covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

of which now begins the conversion of multitudes of gentiles in restoring the Kingdom to Israel, for this was a Mystery being made known Acts 15:18 !

Paul would further elucidate Eph 3:3-6

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

This was indicating that the Tabernacle of David comprises of both Elect Jews and Gentiles who become Living Stones, builded together upon the foundation of Jesus Christ, to be a habitation of God through the Spirit Matt 16:18; Eph 2:20-22; 1 Pet 2:5-6; Isa 28:16 !

beloved57
August 10th, 2012, 09:34 AM
Rom 15:12

12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

He that shall arise and reign over the Gentiles, from the root of Jesse, is speaking of Christ, and as stated here to rise and to rule the Gentiles, it is the very same as saying that He shall rule the House of Jacob !

Lk 1:33

33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Acts 15 describes His Reign over the Gentiles Acts 15:16-17

16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

Dan 7:14

14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion[reign] is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

So you see, the House of Jacob of Lk 1:33 is not literal physical descendants, but Spiritual Israel, comprised of Abraham's Spiritual descendants from both jew and gentile ! This is another proof that Israel and The Church, the Body of Christ are the same. Not National Physical Israel, but the Spiritual Israel of God !

beloved57
August 11th, 2012, 04:02 PM
Rom 15:8-9

8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.

Who cannot see from this passage that the Mercy's promised to the Fathers, and confirmed by Christs coming into the world and dying for the sins of God's people, that they had a Gentile interest, that the Gentiles might Glorify God for His Mercy. This lets us Know that the promises were made to the Church, the Body of Christ, The Seed of Abraham Gal 3:29 through Christ Gal 3:16

Remember when the Old Saint Zacharias was praising God at the birth of John , and he stated in regards to that, how that God hath remembered His Oath to the Fathers and to Abraham and hath performed the Mercy ?

Lets read Lk 1:67-73,79


67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,

68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;

70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;

72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

Well this is what Paul has reference to in Rom 15:8

And of course Zacharias makes mention also of the Gentile interest in Vs 79

79 To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.

Yes, that would be the Gentiles, and they would Glorify God for His Mercy ! Also see Acts 13:48; 15:17-18

So that is what Paul is relating in Rom 15:7-8, how that God, in giving Christ, His Birth, Life and Death, confirmed the promises made to the Fathers, and again notice next, that the Gentiles might glorify God for His Mercy, What Mercy ? The same Mercy Zacharias mentioned here Lk 1:72

72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

So the gentiles were also Children of Prophets and Covenant Acts 3:25-26

25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

So it is not biblical to separate the gentiles from the promises to the Fathers, who mostly were ethnic jews, but only they were saved and spiritual !

beloved57
August 25th, 2012, 05:06 PM
Rom 2:28-29

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Even though the natural man and those deceived by the antichrist will never believe this, but God's definition of a Jew has nothing to do with ethnicity, for that is a outward thing, it has nothing to do with bloodline, for that has to do with the natural Jn 1:13

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

The jews took pride of their blood line of Abraham physically Matt 3:9

9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

But a Real Jew before God are they who receive a heart circumcision ,or circumcision of the heart. Paul writing to both converted jews and Gentiles says this Phil 3:3

3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

And in this regards, he [Paul] disregards his ethnic heritage and physical circumcision Phil 3:4-5

4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:

5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

Notice how he relates to Circumcision in Vs 3, but disregards it in Vs 5 as just a mere matter of confidence in the flesh !

One had to do with physical, blood heritage in Vs 5, but the other with a Spiritual Heritage. So basically what the scripture teaches by all this, A True Jew before God ,is anyone who has received New Birth, that New Birth which comes through and because of the Resurrection of Jesus Christ from the Dead 1 Pet 1:3, for these are Christ's Spiritual Seed, the Seed of which God Promised this here Deut 30:6

And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

beloved57
August 26th, 2012, 03:00 PM
Eph 3:1-6

For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

The Gospel , in case we have forgotten, is strictly related to Salvation. OT Scripture makes it quite Clear that God has promised to save Israel, and this Saving is in Christ, for Israel is the Only People God has promised to Save and to Justify, for instance Isa 45:25

In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

And True Faith believes God's Promise, which is here, All the Seed of Israel shall be Justified in the LORD, this is a Gospel Promise. Or that Israel shall be saved by the Lord Deut 33:29

29 Happy art thou, O Israel: who is like unto thee, O people saved by the Lord, the shield of thy help, and who is the sword of thy excellency! and thine enemies shall be found liars unto thee; and thou shalt tread upon their high places.

This also is a Gospel Promise Isa 45:17

But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.


Now, what Paul was called by Paul to do was elucidate the Mystery, which is, that These Salvation Promises to Israel, which are Gospel Promises for sure, that the Gentiles are fellowheirs, of the same body and partakers of those promises. Yes, some Gentiles partake of the Promise of God that Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting Salvation, which is Everlasting Life Jn 3:16 !

I know many will not acknowledge this Truth, but its True any how, and this confirms that Israel of the OT that was Promised Salvation, is the Church in the NT, and that fulfills their Everlasting Salvation through Christ or IN THE LORD !

beloved57
August 26th, 2012, 06:18 PM
As pertaining to the True Jews, those of that Seed that God made this Promise Deut 30:6


6 And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Now that Seed is revealed here in one of Paul's writings as the Apostle to the Gentiles Col 2:10-11

10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Yes, Vs 11 here is part of the fulfillment of Deut 30:6, God's Elect Col 3:12

12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

Yes, God was speaking to His same Elect in Deut 30:6

And we know that many of this Elect Seed here in Colossae were from the Gentiles, who did receive this heart circumcision Col 2:11 by this verse here Col 1:27

27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

For it had been a Mystery that the Seed spoken of in Deut 30:6 would also include Gentiles. So the circumcision of the heart that God promised to this Seed Deut 30:6 is the Circumcision of Christ Col 2:11

11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

This is Spiritual Circumcision made by the Effectual Virtue of the Death of Christ, yes it is accomplished by the Death of Christ, who is the Seed of Abraham Gal 3:16, and it is applied by the Spirit, in that the Risen Christ became a quickening Spirit 1 Cor 15:45

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

beloved57
September 15th, 2012, 07:28 PM
Much of what happened in the OT, especially in the life of Abraham had a allegorical meaning, which comes to pass under the New Covenant economy, this is made clear here in Gal 4:24

24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

Now scripture is clear that all of Abraham's natural descendants of ethnic Israel were not the children of promise or of the special elect seed, the children of God Rom 9:8

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

and this was also a reason why God's providence ordered the births of both Isaac and Ishmael, this was to prove that point that all of Abraham's natural descendants did not have a interest in the Abrahamic Covenant and his seed here Gen 17:5-8

5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.

7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

Note: This promise above is NOT TO Abraham's Natural Descendants Israel !

Now this is also why God so providentially ordered that Ishmael and his Mother would be cast out of the household of Abraham, and not to be considered partakers with the True Heirs of Promise Gal 4:30

30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

This casting out did picture the casting out of a great many natural branches out of the Israel of God, the Olive Tree, Saved Ethnic Jews, The Remnant of Grace Election Rom 11:12-15; Jn 15:6 !

The rest were blinded, but there was Hope that even some of them would be of the Election of Grace and would later become believers and grafted back in !

However, for the most part, they were as the Ishmael's, that would not be Heirs.

For all of ethnic Israel to be saved would overthrow these scriptures, Gal 4:30 and Rom 9:27

Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

This very scripture Rom 9:27 forbids any salvation for all ethnic jews known as Israel, because that would then no longer be a Remnant, which contradicts this verse !

The rest of Israel being saved would be through gentiles being grafted in !

beloved57
October 31st, 2012, 06:19 AM
Rom 15:8-13

8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.

10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.

11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.

12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

13 Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

The Promises to the Fathers, the Jewish Fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and David. they always had Gentile Salvation in View ! Thats because the promises were made according to a Spiritual Seed out of the Fathers and not a Physical Seed.

Abraham had the Promises proclaimed to Him as being revealed to be the Father of Many Nations Gen 17:5-8

5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.

7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

So Gentile Salvation, or Gentiles that would believe are also as Jews that would believe are the Children of the Covenant and of the Prophets Acts 3:25-26

25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

beloved57
November 5th, 2012, 06:57 AM
Lk 14:14

And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.

Acts 24:15

And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Remember Jesus words here Jn 6:39-40

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The Resurrection of the Just is the raising up of All for whom Christ died and who died in the Lord, in the Last Day ! That is His Church, the Members of His Body !

The Just are all whom Christ made Righteous or Just by His Obedience to the Cross Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous or Just.

And so the Just shall Live by Faith Rom 1:16-17

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

The Just are all whom ever Lived by Faith, to include the OT Saints Hab 2:4


Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

All these will be raised up in the Last Day, the Resurrection of the Just or of the Justified or of the Righteous.

Lazarus, who technically was an Old Testament Saint, was said that he would be raised up in the last day Jn 11:24

Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

She referred to the Resurrection of the Just in the Last day. Christ told her that He was that Resurrection Jn 11:25-26

25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Jesus was speaking as the Christ, the Head of the Church, and He was the Firstfruits of all who sleep 1 Cor 15:20-23

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Lazarus should be made alive in the Last Day because he was in Christ, as well as all other OT Saints, this Truth of the Resurrection of Christ and its effects more so than any other Truth combines and reveals that the OT Saints, People of Faith Heb 11 and the NT People of Faith are all the Body of Christ, the Church which He is the Head, and of which their Resurrection is the Fruit of !

beloved57
November 6th, 2012, 05:37 AM
Paul stated that the Twelve Tribes had a Hope of the Resurrection of the dead

Acts 23:6

6 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.

Acts 24:14-15

14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Acts 26:7-8

7 Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews.

8 Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead?

This is the Resurrection Martha spoke of here Jn 11:24

24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

And Jesus stated, that this Resurrection was all about Him, He was the that Resurrection, meaning that it would be effected by His Work Jn 11:25-26

25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

Now, this establishes that the OT Saints looked forward to and that their Hope was in the Lord Jesus Christ, the Head of the Church !

This subject of the Resurrection is what Paul preaches on in 1 Cor 15, and it all hinged on Christ's Resurrection from the Dead as the Firstfruit 1 Cor 15:12-18,22-23

12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


You see, what Paul stated as the OT Hope of Acts 24:14-15, all hinged upon the Resurrection of the Head of the Church 1 Cor 15:12-18

Who was Paul writing to in 1 Cor 15 ? Lets look here 1 Cor 1:1-2


Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,

2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:

So the Hope of the Resurrection of which Paul stated of in Acts 24:14-15 and the Hope of the Resurrection for the Church of God, are One and the same, because the Church and saved Jews are the Same one people of God. Under the Old Covenant the same body of Christ was merely under a different administration than its now under that of the New Covenant.

Jobs hope of Resurrection, an OT Character, His Hope also rested in Christ,s Resurrection from the Dead Job 19:25-26

25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

Job believed in a Physical bodily Resurrection after His Death and after he turned into dust, which is what 1 Cor 15 also teaches on ! 1 Cor 15:35-36

35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

beloved57
December 10th, 2012, 03:50 PM
If Israel was not the Church, that People for whom Christ Loved and died, that is gave Himself for, then explain why Paul says this Per Acts 28:17-20

17 And it came to pass, that after three days Paul called the chief of the Jews together: and when they were come together, he said unto them, Men and brethren, though I have committed nothing against the people, or customs of our fathers, yet was I delivered prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans.

18 Who, when they had examined me, would have let me go, because there was no cause of death in me.

19 But when the Jews spake against it, I was constrained to appeal unto Caesar; not that I had ought to accuse my nation of.

20 For this cause therefore have I called for you, to see you, and to speak with you: because that for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.

Now compare Col 1:23-27


23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Now lets compare some things from each passage. Paul speaks of the Hope of Israel in Acts 28:20, in the Colossae he speaks of the Hope of the Gospel and of Glory Col 1:23,27

23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

See Isa 46:13

I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.

Lk 2:32

A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people

Paul speaks of His chains, which oft times denotes Physical suffering Acts 28:20


20 For this cause therefore have I called for you, to see you, and to speak with you: because that for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.

In Col 1 he speaks of of his suffering for the body's sake, the Church Col 1:24

24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

It is stated that Paul wrote this here epistle while in prison or chains in Rome !

Now these Two things alone are enough evidences that Paul identifies Israel, of the stated Hope Of Israel in Acts 28:20 and the Church, the body of Christ as and the Hope of Glory as the same ! Thats was the Mystery of Israel. Israel was not a single body of ethnic jews, its a spiritual body of both jews and gentiles together, Joined in their Head Christ !

beloved57
December 11th, 2012, 10:13 AM
That the New Covenant Promises applied to and means the Church [comprised of both jew and gentile believers which belong to Christ Gal 3:29] is understood when we consider how this OT Promise of Covenant Blessing Ezk 36:26-27

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Is applied to New Covenant Believers here Phil 2:13

13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Yes the fulfillment of Ezk 36:26-27 is witnessed by Paul here Phil 2:13 ! God the Holy Spirit works in Spiritual Israel or New Covenant Israel causing them to will and to do of God's Good Pleasure or in other words to walk in His statues and keep His Judgments to do them, that is God the Spirit causes them to do them. That word cause in Ezk 36:27 is the hebrew word asah: accomplish, perform as in Deut 4:13


13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

The Church is the Spiritual Israel or Circumcision Phil 3:3

3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

Now this Phrase the Circumcision normally applies to jews except for here in Phil 3:3

But check Acts 10:45;11:2; Rom 3:30 !

beloved57
December 17th, 2012, 05:35 AM
Now that the Gentiles would partake of the same Covenant Promises as the Elect Jews, the promises of the Covenant which Christ is the Mediator of, this is seen in Isa 42:6

6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

Isa 49:6

6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

And so Paul makes the connection and states it thusly here Eph 2:16

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Eph 3:6

That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

What same Body ? The Body of Elect Jews to whom the New Covenant Promises were made !

When God made this Promise to Israel Isa 45:17

But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

Thats a Gospel Promise of Salvation, well that Promise applied to some Gentiles also !

Thats why Paul says in God's ultimate saving of Israel, its accomplished by the salvation of the Gentiles Rom 11:26

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

That was an Mystery all through the OT that Gentiles also were considered part of Israel that the promises were made !

With the saving of elect jews and elect gentiles, God brings to pass the Promise of Isa 45:17 !

And elect jews and elect gentiles are the Church, the Spiritual Seed of Abraham that belongs to Christ, Abraham's Seed Gal 3:16,29 !

skinker
December 17th, 2012, 10:59 PM
Beloved, your Pauline Christian Bible beliefs have no spiritual authority in them as such because the Bible stories used as foundational for Paul's theology are all bogus fictions.

You and all Pauline Christians need to prepare yourselves for the End Times of all Abrahamic religions including Pauline Christianity. Why do I say this? As a Warner and Jewish Christian prophesy bearer who God has been telling since 1979 that Christianity cannot tie itself to the Bible any longer. And now that prophesy has been confirmed for any intelligent person who is not afraid to look at the historical record. I refer you to the findings of Israeli archeologists Finkelstein and Silberman who have discovered ancient Hebrews who wrote the Bible cannot be traced any farther back in history than 700 BC! 700 BC means all those stories about an earlier Israel filled with momentous events and personages is all fiction, all just Jewish myths of origin that most all ethnic groups produce at one time or another. The only reason Christians take Jewish myths as real history is because Paul told them to and thus Paul and Pauline Christianity crashes along with Judaism as any real source of spiritual authority. You can't get spiritual authority from a book of fables and fictitious people and events.

Will Christianity die along with the rest of the Abrahamic religions now that Abraham and Moses and David and Solomon, etc, are all exposed as fabrications? No, not at all because God saw to it at the beginning of Christianity that there was another Way which was the Gnostic Christian path that never was tied to the Bible. And now we have a new Gnostic Christian vision to guide Christians and the whole world in the New Age.

You can ignore and hide your eyes away from viewing The Bible Unearthed video but for all thinking people the news contained therein destroys all Abrahamic religions as valid spiritual paths. And the world will rejoice once the Abrahamic religionists are stopped from acting out their terrible religious wars with everyone else and themselves when they can't find any other enemies to fight.

beloved57
December 17th, 2012, 11:36 PM
Gal 3:24

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

That the Saints in OC Israel were the Church, the Body of Christ, is seen seen clearly in our scripture text. Now Paul was writing believers that were both of jewish and Gentile descent, but what he was saying here about the law had a special significance to the jewish believers because of their privileged background they were of and the giving of the law Rom 9:4

4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

Rom 3:1-2

What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

However, though less formal the Gentiles also were given the law in its moral precepts as a guide for right and wrong behavior before their Creator Rom 2:14-16

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law [in a formal fashion], do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another )

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Now Paul gives one of the primary purposes of the Law, it was to bring both jew and gentile elect to Faith in Christ, who is the Head of His Body the Church; You see whether jew or gentile, if we belong to Christ, we are Abraham's Seed, and heirs according to Promise Gal 3:16,29

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

beloved57
December 18th, 2012, 08:10 AM
Gal 3:16 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Gal%203.16),29 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Gal%203.29)

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

And all such Heirs before conversion, before Faith, were still Abraham's Seed and Children of Promise. This is True because Paul tells both jewish and gentile believers that they were as Isaac was, Children of Promise Gal 4:28

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

That connects OT Believers as Isaac with the NT Believers as those Paul was now writing as Brothers in Christ, that shows that Isaac was part of the Church, the Body of Christ as are those believers to whom Paul was now writing Gal 3:29

This is also key to understanding the afore mentioned point that believers are Heirs of promise before believing, because as Isaac, by God was designated an Heir of Promise before he had being, so likewise are NT Believers, the Church !

It was solely by God's Purpose and Word of promise Isaac was an heir, God had stated concerning him Gen 17:15-19

15 And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be.

16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.

17 Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?

18 And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!

19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.

Isaac was not offered or given a choice on whether or not he wanted to be an heir of Promise or a child of promise, for God determined that Vs 19

God stated:

I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him. See Vs 7 also !

Now what Paul is saying in Gal 4:28, is that in the same sense or manner that Isaac was a child of promise, one whom God sware to establish His Covenant with, so are all Believers in Christ, be they Jew or Gentile, all [Believers] were products of God's sure Word of Promise to Abraham, just as Isaac was.

beloved57
December 18th, 2012, 01:49 PM
Now Isaac and all subsequent believers receive their being, whether jew or gentile from God's Promise here to Abraham Gen 17:2-5

2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. See Heb 6:13-14

3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,

4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.

5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

This promise was not in regard to Abraham's physical seed, but a Spiritual Seed of Faith, a Seed that would be Faithful to God as He was blessed to be, Hence Paul writes to to both believing Jew's and Gentiles this Gal 3:7-9

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

In other words, the Believers in Christ in Paul's time, as well as Paul himself, are believers, people of Faith, as a Result of God's promise to Abraham here Gen 17:2-5

2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.

3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,

4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.

5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

All Believers are born out of God's Promise as Isaac was, that is, we become believers in a manner analogous to Isaac's miraculous birth, by an act of God's Power, and not by our own will and effort, and this is the formation of the Church, the Body of Christ, and the Law was given to bring each member of His Body, jew or gentile, O T Believer or New, to bring them to Faith in Christ their Head ! Thats who the Law was a schoolmaster to !

beloved57
December 20th, 2012, 09:56 PM
Acts 28:20

For this cause therefore have I called for you, to see you, and to speak with you: because that for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.

The Hope of Israel that Paul preached, was not the same Hope of Israel that the ethnic religious jews of his day believed in. For they believed in a hope of Israel according to their natural reasoning , that it consisted in a national restoration of the ethnic jewish state, whereas Paul now understood the Hope of Israel to be a spiritual people, hence their differences in this matter led to Paul's persecution by the jews; Acts 26:7; 2 Cor 11:24; 1 Thess 2:14, but yet Paul understood his Hope of Israel, that was contrary to his own countrymen as a whole, was the Hope of Israel held by the Fathers of the Faith Acts 26:6

And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God, unto our fathers:

For instance Abraham Isaac, and Jacob, which hope was spiritual and heavenly Heb 11:8-10;13-16

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.

15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

beloved57
December 31st, 2012, 11:21 AM
Who said the above ? Job 14:14

If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

Scholars believe that the book of Job may be the most ancient of the Divine oracles of scripture, in any case these words of the Man of God does reveal unto us that the OT Believers had the same hope showed them as the NT Believers, that of a Resurrection Change, that is Jobs Belief and Hope. It was David's Hope Ps 17:15

15 As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness.

Its the SAME HOPE of Change Paul writes of here 1 Cor 15:51-52

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Phil 3:11,20-21

11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.


20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

If perhaps there is any difference in what the OT Church believed and the NT Church, it would be the Mystery aspect Paul wrote of 1 Cor 15:51,52

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

That all believers will not experience Physical Death also known as Sleep, but they shall be alive and remaining when that Change does come, When Jehovah Jesus Returns ! This has always been the Hope of the Church, the Seed of Abraham, the Israel of God !

beloved57
January 17th, 2013, 11:19 PM
Ps 33:12

Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord; and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance.

This Blessed Nation whose God is the Lord, of which the people of it are His Chosen Inheritance, its the Church, those Chosen in Christ before the foundation Eph 1:3-4


3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Notice in the Ps 33:12 that this People hath the Lord Chosen for Himself !

Well coincidently those Paul writes of in Eph 1:4 as being Chosen by the Father, the greek word chosen is eklegó:

I pick out for myself, choose, elect, select.


Its also in the middle voice meaning God selected or picked them out for Himself, comparable to what is said of that People in Rs 33:12 !

Also in Ps 33:12 this Nation / People Chosen by God for Himself is stated to be His own Inheritance [possession, property, inheritance, heritage]

Now back to Eph 1:4, Paul writes of them as being God's Inheritance Eph 1:18


18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

The Church is that Holy Nation 1 Pet 2:9

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

That Holy Nation is also that peculiar People as in Titus 2:14

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

The word peculiar here in Titus is the greek word periousios:


that which is one's own, belonging to one's possessions

a) a people selected by God from the other nations for his own possession


The Nation and Inheritance of Ps 33:12 is the same Chosen Church in Christ as Eph 1:3-4 !

God does not have Two Chosen People, Two Inheritances, nor Two Holy Nations !

beloved57
January 21st, 2013, 03:44 PM
Isa 45:17

17 But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

Who is this Israel that shall be saved in the Lord ? Many in organized and deceived religion believes that the Israel to whom this promise is made, are those who belong to Abraham's ethnic children of the land of Israel literally , That is His children according to the flesh.Remember when Jesus said this to some of them Jn 8:37

37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

Jesus here acknowledges that they were Abraham's seed according to the flesh, and they were called Israel, however that Israel with that consideration alone [ethnicity of the flesh], being only fleshly children of Abraham, that was not the Israel of Isa 45:17 that shall be saved in the Lord with an Everlasting Salvation,for they were not the children of the promise Rom 9:8

8 That is, They[ Abraham's descendants] which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Which words mine you are in explanation of the preceding Vs 6 Rom 9:6

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Hence with that in Mind, the Israel of Isa 45:17 are the Children of the Promise. So we should also see that Children of Promise and Israel are used interchangeably !

The Israel of Isa 45:17 are the Children of Promise that are counted as the seed. Remember these words Isa 45:25

In the Lord shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

This verse as well as Vs 17 refers to the Children of Promise of Rom 9:8, which is an explanation of Israel in Rom 9:6

And the Children of the Promise are also the Children of God Vs 8,which is manifested by Faith in Christ as Per Gal 3:26

For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

So all whom have Faith in Christ Jesus belong to that Israel of Isa 45:17,25 !

beloved57
January 21st, 2013, 06:34 PM
Gal 3:26

For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

So all whom have Faith in Christ Jesus belong to that Israel of Isa 45:17,25 !

Salvation of this Israel is based upon a Promise without conditions upon the ones going to be saved !

Remember Paul refers to the Promise of Isa 45:17 here Rom 11:25-26

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Israel here is the Israel of promise in Isa 45:17, 25

But again, Israel of Promise does not denote all Abraham's Physical Descendants of the Flesh, not that Israel. Remember Paul mentions Israel after the flesh here 1Cor 10:18

Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?

Thats not the Israel of Isa 45:17,25 nor Rom 11:26. Look If all Israel meant all ethnic jews without exception, there is a serious contradiction with Rom 9:27

27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel[National], Though the number of the children of Israel[National] be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

The Promise for that Nation is not all without exception but a remnant ! The word remnant means:

Remains or what is left behind, which is equivalent to only a few, a small portion ! Read Isa 1:9

Except the Lord of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.

Ladies and Gentleman, out of Ethnic Israel, the Nation, Abraham's Children after the Flesh, God has promised to save only a small portion of them, a very small remnant !

Never is it all of them without exception ! Not even most of them !

This fact poses an big serious problem to those who falsely believe and teach, that all Israel of the Flesh or of that Nation shall be saved according to Rom 11:26, Isa 45:17,25.

All who believe such false teaching are deceived and probably will remain that way until Christ comes or their death !

The All Israel that shall be saved,are all the Children of God, who shall be made evident by their Faith in Christ, whether ethnic jew or Gentile, Abraham is the Father of us All, If we are of Faith !

Rom 4:16

Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

The Seed of Isa 45:25

25 In the Lord shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

Princely
January 23rd, 2013, 01:51 PM
"The Lord has redeemed Jacob and shows His glory through Israel."
"I will put salvation in Zion and give to Israel my glory. My glory I give to no other."

Those are not my words they come from the Lord who sent me. He commanded me what to say and how to speak and since I know His commandment is eternal life ,what I say is spoken just as He instructed me.

I am the light of the world, no one who follows me shall ever walk in darkness because they will possess the light of life.

Only the one who comes from God has seen God. I come from Him He sent me. The Lord and I are One.

beloved57
January 24th, 2013, 07:53 AM
2 Tim 2:10

10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Its God's Elect of both out of the jews and gentiles that God purposed them to obtain Eternal Salvation with Eternal Glory, which is In Christ Jesus !

Now that has always been God's Purpose, that a Elect People [Israel] would be saved with an Everlasting Salvation and Glory Isa 45:17,25

17 But Israel shall be saved in the Lord[Christ Jesus ] with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

25 In the Lord[Christ Jesus ] shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

Paul knows that their [ God's Elect from both jew and gentile] experientially obtaining Salvation was a sure thing because it rested upon God's Promise unto His Elect People Israel, which did include Chosen Gentiles which had been a Mystery, that means God's Israel, His Elect, the Seed of Israel of Isa 45:17,25, to whom the Promise pertained,were also Gentiles outside of the ethnic Israel jewish race Jn 10:16. It cannot be made more plainer that the Elect of 2 Tim 2:10 were inclusive of Gentiles, for His [Paul's] Apostleship and Ministry were unto the Gentiles, notice Paul's statement earlier to Timothy 2 Tim 1:10-11

10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

11 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.

That was for the Gentile portion of the Israel that was promised Salvation with Glory Isa 45:17,25

17 But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

25 In the Lord shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

beloved57
January 25th, 2013, 07:50 AM
We know that Israel the Election as in Rom 11:5-7

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

And

Eph 5:25

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

We know they are Identical when we consider that Jacob is His Inheritance Deut 32:9

9 For the Lord's portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.

which is also stated the same of the Church in the NT, The Church Chosen in Christ before the Foundation Eph 1:4, for whom Christ gave Himself Eph 5:25, is also the Lords inheritance Eph 1:18

18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

Paul even Identifies the OT Saints, which were Elect Jews, as being of the same household with the NT Saints which is comprised of Gentiles and Jews Eph 2:19

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

The Household of God is His Inheritance !

The Saints and Household of God here reaches to the OT Saints, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob along with the whole of the household of Faith Gal 6:10

10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.

The Household of Faith includes all the Spiritual seed of Abraham under both Testaments Rom 4:16

Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

beloved57
January 29th, 2013, 11:17 AM
We know that Israel, the Election, and the Church, the Body of Christ are the same when we consider this:

Psalm 132:13

13 For the Lord hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation. Compared to Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

First of all, God's Chosen are His Chosen,there are no two groups of people that are God's Chosen !

All ethnic jews in Israel were not God's Chosen, Jesus makes that clear here Matt 22:14

14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Paul as well here Rom 11:7

7 What then? Israel[National] hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election or Chosen of that Nationhath obtained it, and the rest[of National Israel] were blinded.

Nothing is more plainer here than that all national Israel was not God's Election or Chosen !

Now the Chosen Zion of Ps 132:13,4 is the same as the Chosen in Eph 1:4. Notice what is stated of this Zion "he[God] hath desired it for his habitation."

And that forever Vs 14 Which denotes permanently !

Now what does the same Cod Breathed scripture say of the Chosen of Eph 1:4 which we know is the Church [Eph 5:25], what says it here Eph 2:21-22

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Now interestingly the greek word for habitation here is katoikētērion and means:

an abode, a habitation, and it implies permanency Remember Jesus words here Jn 14:23

Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

That word abode also means:

lodging, dwelling-place, room, abode, mansion.


Notice again what is said of the Church Eph 2:22

"builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit."

Now is not that the same exact dwelling place of God referred to here Ps 132:13,14

13 For the Lord hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation.

14 This is my rest for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it.

Yes it is, for God in both places is speaking of His Chosen, and they being His Dwelling forever ! How can this be ? Its because they are the same Eternal Tabernacle of God !

Rev 21:3


And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

beloved57
January 29th, 2013, 02:43 PM
Also scripture saith that He, God The LORD, hath Chosen Jerusalem Zech 3:2

2 And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

Now What Jerusalem hath God Chosen, not that one which was compared with hagar the slave woman and her children as Per Gal 4:25

25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

But that Jerusalem from above which is free, which is the Mother of us all who are of Faith, the Israel of God Gal 4:26

26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Gal 6:16

16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Which is also the Jerusalem of Heb 12:22,23

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Which is also the church of the firstborn !

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

That is to say, those whose names have been written in Heaven, are the Church, whom Christ is the firstborn and Head of !

Now who is the firstborn ? Col 1:18

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Col 1:15

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Now in the Heb 12:23 verse, the word is in the plural, which is fine because it means all the members of the body of the Firstborn from the dead, which is plainly called the Church, hence, The Church, the Body of Christ is Jerusalem whom God hath Chosen, also Mt Zion !

beloved57
January 29th, 2013, 06:55 PM
Jn 4:22

Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

Almost everyone thinks that Jesus means here ethnic jews, Abraham's physical children according to the flesh. But He does not mean them, He means Abraham's Children of Promise, the Children of God, who first enter this world through the flesh. Rom 9:8

That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Salvation is of those Jews who constitute the Children of God, the Seed of the Children of the Promise !

What constitutes being a Jew or an Israelites indeed in God's Eyes ?

There at least three important guidelines in scripture that are typified by Abraham's Physical descendants of the flesh, ethnic Israel.

First to be a Jew or Israelite, one must have had a relationship with Abraham or to be considered the seed of Abraham !

The physical jew did have this relationship and often boasted of it Jn 8:33,37

33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
Jesus was saying that He knew they were the Children of the Flesh Rom 9:8a

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God:

Remember later Jesus said this to them Jn 8:42

42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

That confirms Rom 9:8 that mere physically being of Abraham's seed did not make God your Father !

Secondly, In order to be a jew or Israelite in the Covenant Community of Israel one had to be circumcised. Remember Paul rehearsing his fleshly confidences stated Phil 3:4-5

4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:

5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

See Lev 12:3; Gen 17:9-12


Thirdly, to be a Jew, and Israelite, one had to keep the law of God Exodus 20 Deut 5, 10:12

12 And now, Israel, what doth the Lord thy God require of thee, but to fear the Lord thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the Lord thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,

These things constituted Israel , the Jews !

beloved57
January 30th, 2013, 04:31 AM
Now what has been typified by ethnic Israel, is fulfilled in Christ Abraham's Seed Gal 3:16

16 Now to Abraham and his seed[Israel] were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed Israel, which is Christ.

#1. All who belong to Christ, that is which are believing in Him, they are Abraham's Seed Gal 3:29

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Thats an criteria for being Israel, a Jew which ethnic Israel typified !

This had nothing to do with race or ethnicity or even gender, but only Faith in Christ. For God had revealed to Abraham centuries earlier that he had a seed amongst the nations Gen 17:5

5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father[f a seed] of many nations have I made thee.

And Abraham's Fatherhood here in Gen 17:5 is here expressed by Paul here in Rom 13-18

13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

This is Israel, Abraham's Seed consisting in both jew and gentiles who are made believers by supernatural birth which was typified by Isaacs Birth.

This is one of the criteria for being Israel, a Jew, that being, of Abraham's Seed ! In this, Abraham's Seed is the Body of Christ, the Church because it belongs to Christ Gal 3:29 ! Can this Israel be the Church here then ? Isa 41:18

But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend. Yes it can be, and it is !

beloved57
January 30th, 2013, 05:40 PM
#2. Also that which the ethnic jews typified as Israel is Circumcision, however this also is fulfilled in Christ, for the circumcision of Christ Col 2:11

11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

This circumcision is performed by the effects of Christ's Cross Work,its Heart circumcision by New Birth. This is the beginning of a New Life, the putting off of the old life through partaking of the New Life.

The Lord Jesus Christ as the Resurrected head of His Body, quickens or gives Life to all for whom He died 1 Cor 15:45

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

ESV Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

This corresponds to what Peter wrote in being begotten again, and how ? By the Resurrection of Christ from the dead 1 Pet 1:3

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his abundant mercy has begotten us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

ESV 2001 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

And by this one is given a New Circumcised Heart, the circumcision of Christ Rom 2:28-29


28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Phil 3:3

3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

The True Jews of Israel Rejoice in Christ Jesus !

Paul here in Phil 3:3 saying we are of the circumcision, is not speaking about ethnic jews though some may be included in those He was writing to, however He is speaking of both jew and gentile believers in Christ, who belong to Christ, and who are Abraham's Seed via that mode as Gal 3:29 .

This circumcision had nothing to do with with that he writes of in Vs 5 Phil 3:5, no, what constituted one to be of this circumcision, who worships by the Spirit of God [ New Birth] and Glory in Christ Jesus, meaning His Cross Gal 6:14

14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

The word Glory is the same word rejoice in Phil 3:3 !

Also See Jn 4:23-24

23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers[Israel] shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

This comes through the Circumcision of Christ to the Israel of God !

beloved57
January 31st, 2013, 01:29 AM
And thirdly or #3 Israel keeps the Law of God, the commandments of God. Remember it was said of the aged Saints early in NT History that they kept the commandments of God Lk 1:5-6

5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.

6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

This meant they had God given Faith in Jesus Christ, the coming seed of the Woman and seed of Abraham Gal 3:16. It means the Law had been their school master till Faith came, which was Christ Gal 3:23-24

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

That was the purpose of the Law, to keep the Remnant of the Election of Grace in National Israel in expectation of the Messiah, the Seed of the Woman and of Abraham. Now notice Zacharias words here Lk 1:67-79

67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,

68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;

70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;

72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,

75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

76 And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;

77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

Note, This shows that the Salvation the True Jews looked forward to was not national, but spiritual and to do with forgiveness of sins !

78 Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,

79 To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.

Christ's birth, life and death under the Law is how believers / Israel keeps the law or the commandments of God, in that He was for them the end of the Law. God's Law would not have its ultimate magnification and honor until Christ would come, and for God's People Israel be made under the Law Gal 4:4-5, and all who are of the Faith of Jesus Christ, keep the Commandments of God, in that He came into the World to obey God's Holy Commandments for them, in their behalf, and to die its accursed death in their stead, and so we have Rom 10:4

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Rev 14:12

12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

They that Keep the Commandments of God and the Faith of Jesus Christ is Israel, are the True Jews !

Its the Israel to whom all the Salvation promises pertain Isa 45:17,25

17 But Israel shall be saved in the Lord[Christ] with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

25 In the Lord[Christ] shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

All those of the Faith of Jesus Christ, jew or gentile, they are Abraham's Circumcised Seed and they keep the Law of God through the Faith of Christ !

beloved57
January 31st, 2013, 09:11 PM
That the Church is Israel is seen when we consider God's Words here to Israel His Glory Isa 43:7,21;46:13

7 Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.

21 This people have I formed for myself; they shall shew forth my praise.

13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.

Now lets compare Isa 43:21 with 1 Pet 2:9

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Now what do they have in common ? Correct shewing forth God's Praises ! Now that this is speaking of the Church and its Salvation is seen here Eph 1:3-6

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

"To the praise of the Glory of His Grace " For this praise is the same as that spoken of in 1 Pet 2:9; Isa 43:7,21,For the Church is Israel His Glory Eph 1:12,14

12 That we[The Church] should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Now how can the Glory He receives from the Salvation of His Church, a people Created in Christ Jesus Eph 2:10

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Now how are these Created any different than the Created in Isa 43:7

Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.

How can the Glory He receives from the Salvation of the Church, His Chosen in Christ Eph 1:4 be any different or subordinate from His Glory in the Salvation of Israel Isa 46:13

13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.

Eph 3:21

21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.



They are the same !

beloved57
February 1st, 2013, 06:39 AM
That the Church Christ shall build Matt 16:18 and the Temple that God shall build in the latter days according to ancient prophecy are the same, is True when we consider this portion of scripture Zech 6:9-13

9 And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,

10 Take of them of the captivity, even of Heldai, of Tobijah, and of Jedaiah, which are come from Babylon, and come thou the same day, and go into the house of Josiah the son of Zephaniah;

11 Then take silver and gold, and make crowns, and set them upon the head of Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest;

12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the Lord of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The Branch; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the Lord:

13 Even he shall build the temple of the Lord; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.

Lets begin with verse 9, for this is a typification of the Work of the Man Christ, who is the Branch as Per Jer 33:15

15 In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land.

Now this coming Branch will also be a Priest and King[Rule] upon His Throne which again is descriptive of Christ and as such He shall build the Temple of God as per fulfilled here Eph 2:20-22

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ[The Branch] himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Now understand that Eph 2:20-22 follows the exaltation of Christ to His Throne from Eph 1:20-23.

The same Temple is True here 1 Pet 2:4-5

To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,

5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

A Spiritual House here is another calling or designation for the Temple were the priesthood resides !

All those who are being begotten again by the Resurrection of Jesus Christ from the Dead as Per 1 Pet 1:3 these are become the Living stones that He [ Christ the Branch ruling on His Throne] uses to build the Temple of God, while upon His Meditorial Throne as Priest and King !

beloved57
February 3rd, 2013, 12:39 AM
Gal 3:29

And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed [Israel], and heirs according to the promise.

Lets get it straight, whenever the terminology Abraham's Seed or its variation is used in scripture, its Israel ! No exceptions ! Isa 41:8

But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.

Abraham's Seed that were heirs of promise like here Heb 11:8-9

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

and as Per Gal 3:29 they were not his physical seed [Israel], no, not his physical and natural descendants, but his descendants only that were born to him in the manner of and typified by the birth of his natural son Isaac, for thats why Paul wrote to both believing Jews and Gentiles, this Gal 4:28

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise[Israel]. Cp Gal 3:29

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Heirs to the same Promise as Heb 11:8-9 !

Abraham was given a seed by God that was analogous unto Isaac's supernatural birth, which typified the New Birth of the Spirit [Gal 4:29] and so they become Children of Faith as their Father Abraham Gal 3:7

Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

That is they were promised Children to Abraham, so they must follow in His footsteps of Faith Rom 4:12

And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

And so they become Children of faith and of Abraham as Isaac did, by God's Word of Promise and Power, and not by human freewill or effort. And this is God's Israel ! Which is also the Church, they which belong to Christ Gal 3:29

29 And if ye be Christ's[His Body the Church], then are ye Abraham's seed[Israel], and heirs according to the promise.

beloved57
February 3rd, 2013, 10:48 PM
Those who believe in an special people Israel, the physical descendent's of Abraham, they are being guilty of having confidence in the flesh, which means their trust lies within being a mere physical jew or descendant of Abraham, their physical circumcision,just what an converted to God Paul calls confidence in the flesh Phil 3:3-8

3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:

5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

And here its boasting in the flesh 2 Cor 11:18

18 Seeing that many glory after the flesh, I will glory also.

To have confidence in the flesh means that if one bases favor with God, salvation of themselves or others, on jewish ethnicity, circumcision, learning, ancestry things like what Paul points out in Phil 3:5

5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

An Hebrew of Hebrew points to pure jewish ancestry, probably means as far as records were concerned, there were no mix marriages in Paul's family tree and certainly that would give him an advantage over other jews who had commingled with the Samaritans See Jn 4 !

These who believe this way do as Jeremiah writes of here Jer 17:5

Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord.

They trust in their physical relationship with the man Abraham Matt 3:9

Ps82
February 4th, 2013, 10:34 AM
I believe that the LORD God has a covenant with the people of Israel. Now, is it a covenant to "save" all their souls? I think not, but he and they did go into a covenant to be used of God. I believe that God is still using them and shows mercy to them for they became an instrument used of God on earth in the eyes of other nations.

I believe that God delivered the gift of salvation through the manifestation of the the promised one. Now, who was/is the promised one from God.
Isaiah 43:11 God speaking of himself.

I (The ONE spiritual God), even I, am the LORD (The literal presence of God, which He manifested unto selected men and unto Israel in the OT), beside ME (as God the Spirit and the manifested presence of the LORD) there is no savior.

God as LORD is our Savior ... but manifested his presence in flesh among men and became his own begotten Son as promised.

Colossians 1:13,14,15,16

To our manifested fleshly LORD all glory and honor is due, because he came to suffer and die for our sins.

The spiritual God could not suffer pain, humiliation, and death, but he could taste those things through the flesh that he took upon himself.

If we honor the promised one who suffered and died physically for us, then we honor the God the Spirit ... for The Father and he are ONE. Jesus professed that if anyone had SEEN HIM, then they HAD SEEN the Father. That is because the Father is LORD God and he is the Son Lord God.

beloved57
February 4th, 2013, 10:40 AM
ps 82


I believe that the LORD God has a covenant with the people of Israel

If you mean Abraham's physical descendants then you have confidence in the flesh !

Ps82
February 4th, 2013, 01:33 PM
Hello beloved57
You said to me:

If you mean Abraham's physical descendants then you have confidence in the flesh !

I'm not Jewish - so I am not trusting in the OT covenant... but I do believe that God is still using Israel.

You can say what you like ... and try to tell me I am not saved, but I know that I am, because I have a personal relationship with the LORD.

Has he called your name out loud? Has he sent you dreams and visions? Has he warned you of impending danger? Has he come to you in dreams and comforted you?

I trust in My Lord for my salvation. Since you say your trust is in the Lord ... the Christ, why do you only claim to be an "Other."

beloved57
February 4th, 2013, 02:40 PM
ps 82


I'm not Jewish

So this thread is not about you or me !

Ps82
February 4th, 2013, 08:28 PM
Oh ... but our Lord will save a Jewish person too ...

beloved57
February 4th, 2013, 11:39 PM
Oh ... but our Lord will save a Jewish person too ...

Sure if they are of the Election of Grace, His Chosen People, thats the only way ! Thats the only way He will save a Gentile also, only if they are of the Election of Grace !

beloved57
February 5th, 2013, 08:12 AM
Rom 11:25,26

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Jacob here is being Identified as the calling of the Gentiles in Vs 25.

The Mystery of the Church is also the Mystery of Israel. That God would through Christ save Gentiles in the latter times was not something completely unknown by the Prophets, for Isa 42:6

6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

Isa 45:22

22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

However, the Mystery was that the Gentile Salvation, which did appear distinct from Israel's Salvation, for instance we read Isa 49:5-7

5 And now, saith the Lord that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the Lord, and my God shall be my strength.

6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

7 Thus saith the Lord, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the Lord that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.

And Lk 2:30-32

30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,

31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;

32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

but all the time that Gentile Salvation was actually one with that of Israel.That is they were part of Israel to be saved also Rom 11:26, that was the Mystery, hence the Gentile Salvation was Christ [The Promise Seed of Abraham] in you the Hope of Glory Col 1:27 and that is the Glory of Isa 45:25

25 In the Lord shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

That Glory is the same as this one for the Gentiles Col 1:27

27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Ps82
February 5th, 2013, 01:12 PM
Hi beloved57,
I have some ideas that I've pondered at times. One concerns the salvation of Israel. Some of the scripture you shared brought it back to my mind.

You shared:

Rom 11:25,26

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

I got the idea from my study in the OT (Numbers 3) that the priesthood of Aaron was actually singled out from among all the tribes to be a sacrifice for the people.

Numbers 3:11-13
And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
"And I, behold, I have taken the Levites from among the children of Israel instead of all the first born that openeth the matrix among the children of Israel: therefore the Levites shall be mine;
Because all the firstborn are mine; for on the day that I smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt I hallowed unto me all the firstborn in Israel, both man and beast: mine shall they be: I am the LORD."

The way I see this comment is:
God would claim the Levites as a sacrifice unto him instead of claiming his established right to take the firstborn children and animals from among Israel as a sacrifice.

The reference to what happened in Egypt is suppose to help us understand what God was going to do through the sacrifice of the Levites.

Now, I don't fully grasp the similarity, but my thoughts so far are:
The Egyptian gentiles did not have any sort of sacrificial blood covering to protect their first born as Israel did.

In the way that God used the blood of the Lamb to protect Israel... so he would henseforth use the Levites (priests, teachers, and servants of the temple) to protect the people in some way.

I believe that God would allow the Levitical leadership at times to remain blind to the truth for the sake of the people, and he would hold them accountable for the "falling away" of the people due to their own false teaching in order to cover the sins of the people. IOW, the people would be found innocent due to their ignorance of the truth... but the priests, etc., would be held accountable because they corrupted the people because they claimed to know the truth in the scriptures while they actually taught their lack of understanding to the people.

In this way the Levites sanctified (demonstrated in a literal manner) the work God through his Son ...because their sacrifice symbolized how Christ would take our punishment upon himself and be the pleasing sacrifice unto God for the protection of his children.

To me this makes great sense in the day of our Lord Jesus when he lectured the leaders, teachers, and priests of his day.

John 5:37-47
And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
And ye will come to me, that ye might have life.
I receive not honor from men.
But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
How can ye believe, which receive honor one of another, and seek not the honor that cometh from God only?
Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses in whom ye trust.
For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

This reveals the blindness of these religious teachers even though they claimed they knew the scriptures and trusted in them for salvation. Yes, they knew the scriptures ... but their hearts and minds were blind to the truth in them.

Yet, since Christ, the sacrifice has been made once and for all ... there is no longer any need for animal sacrifice nor priestly sacrifice ... for all those who accept Jesus as their savior are covered by the blood of our high priest. Our Lord Jesus was the ONE promised in I Samuel 2:35,36 to take the place of the Levitical priesthood.

"And I (the LORD) will raise me up a faithful priest, that shall do according to that which is in mine heart and in my mind: and I will build him a sure house (not like the temporary house of Aaron and Levi); and he shall walk before mine anointed (my "saved") for ever.

And it shall come to pass, that everyone that is left in thine house (The house of Eli a son of Aaron of the tribe of Levi) shall come and crouch to him (the promised ONE) for a piece of silver and a morsel of bread, and shall say, 'Put me, I pray thee, into one of the priests' offices, that I may eat a piece of bread.'"

I find God's mercy from Christ's words upon the cross, when he even forgave those who caused him to be put to death... and said that he forgave them, because they knew not what they did. Later it was said that: If they had known (understood) who Jesus was, then they would never have killed him. This points to their being left blind until God's will was accomplished for the Christ.

Our Lord Jesus was the ONE to take the place of the priesthood of Aaron ... and become our eternal sacrifice and an eternal priest like Melchizedek.

beloved57
February 8th, 2013, 11:21 AM
Who exactly are God's People ? Many today have been deceived by satan as to who are God's People, even His Own Elect or Chosen. If you were to ask the majority of deceived religion who God's People are, they would reply, the jews as in ethnic jews , the physical descendants of Abraham, however they are all so wrong. No, God's People, His very own People of Choice, are all those He foreknew Rom 11:1-2

I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

This verse should enlighten us that the nation of Israel in and of itself was not God's People of Choice or why cast it away ? That would contradict the point of the verse. Instead it is clear in Vs 2 that God's own People are those He foreknew, not the physical descendants of Abraham, even though some of Abraham's physical seed were amongst those He foreknew.

When scripture declares that Jesus shall save His People from their sins [a promise] Matt 1:21, it does not mean the physical descendants of Abraham [ They are not the Children of God Rom 9:8], BUT those whom He as God Man foreknew !

Yes, since Jesus is God incarnate, God with us, then His People would be the same as indicated in Rom 11:2

God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

Now understand this, this foreknown People are the same ones Paul mentions here Rom 8:28-29

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Its the same exact greek word. So Rom 8:29 gives more understanding as to who the ones Gd foreknew are [His People], and they are all those He did predestinate to be conformed to the Image of His Son who are also these Eph 1:4-5

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,


So in essence and in Truth, God's People are all whom He chose in Christ and predestinated before time began, to be conformed to the Image of His Son, jew or gentile !