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Jayhawker Soule
May 11th, 2009, 01:13 PM
My main areas of interest are Torah and Syro-Palestinian archaeology. I look forward to our discussions. Shalom ...

Spitfire
May 11th, 2009, 01:54 PM
The Torah? So many people seem to find that such an unpleasant series of texts.

Jayhawker Soule
May 11th, 2009, 02:26 PM
The Torah? So many people seem to find that such an unpleasant series of texts.That's no doubt true ...

Spitfire
May 11th, 2009, 02:38 PM
I like to call it the Pentateuch.

Jayhawker Soule
May 11th, 2009, 03:08 PM
I like to call it the Pentateuch.And I think a peoples traditions, including how they refer to their religious texts, deserves respect and deference. Furthermore, Pentateuch is typically used to refer to the Greek translations of a specific Vorlage with unique characterists. If you have some aversion to Jewish terms such as Torah or Chumash you might wish to consider the more neutral "Five Books of Moses."

assuranceagent
May 11th, 2009, 03:32 PM
Welcome to TOL, Jay. :cheers:

Knight
May 11th, 2009, 03:53 PM
Welcome to the jungle.

Spitfire
May 11th, 2009, 11:49 PM
If you have some aversion to Jewish terms such as Torah or Chumash you might wish to consider the more neutral "Five Books of Moses."Actually, no, I don't have any such aversion, like you said, more an act of deference to my own traditions. If you mean to imply that our versions of the five books of Moses are flawed then I would be interested to hear why, though, I should confess, it seems that in matters of the authority and meaning of scripture Jewish scholars seem to simply assume any position contrary to whatever position Christians tend to take. Might it eventually come to the point that we're told it's a strictly Christian idea that God created the world, and Judaism has never actually taught any such thing?

And do you have some aversion to the term "Jewish?" Or what does "Other" mean in your case? Just curious. :)

Stripe
May 12th, 2009, 12:18 AM
Greetings. From whence dost thou hail?

Jayhawker Soule
May 12th, 2009, 03:57 AM
Greetings. From whence dost thou hail?Thank you. I was raised in Southern California, lived for about a dozen years in San Francisco, and for the past three decades in the Chicago area.

Jayhawker Soule
May 12th, 2009, 04:55 AM
And I think a peoples traditions, including how they refer to their religious texts, deserves respect and deference. Furthermore, Pentateuch is typically used to refer to the Greek translations of a specific Vorlage with unique characterists. If you have some aversion to Jewish terms such as Torah or Chumash you might wish to consider the more neutral "Five Books of Moses."Actually, no, I don't have any such aversion, like you said, more an act of deference to my own traditions. If you mean to imply that our versions of the five books of Moses are flawed then I would be interested to hear why, ...Spitfire, I meant to imply precisely what I wrote, nothing more, and what I wrote was nothing more than rudimentary fact. You might wish to google "Septuagint' for background or, if you're really interested, pick up Emanuel Tov's excellent Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Textual-Criticism-of-the-Hebrew-Bible/Emanuel-Tov/e/9780800634292).


... though, I should confess, it seems that in matters of the authority and meaning of scripture Jewish scholars seem to simply assume any position contrary to whatever position Christians tend to take.Confessing such attitudes is probably a good start; simple awareness is often curative. I have little doubt but that one can find cases of 'push back' against replacement theology and cultural rape and the tapestry of pogrom and forced conversion that characterized much of the post-Nicean history, but I suspect that most differences in position reflect differences in position. I'm certainly no expert, but I'd be happy to discuss specifics in whatever thread you might recommend.


Might it eventually come to the point that we're told it's a strictly Christian idea that God created the world, and Judaism has never actually taught any such thing?I doubt it. Genesis is quite clear in asserting that God created the world.


And do you have some aversion to the term "Jewish?" Or what does "Other" mean in your case? Just curious.I actually struggled a bit with the label. The term Judaism covers a rather broad spectrum ranging from various flavors of Haredim through Reform and secular. Most modern Jews would categorize the likes of Hillel and Akiva, Rashi, Maimonides, Spinoza, Hermann Cohen, Mordechai Kaplan, Theodore Herzl, and Sherwin Wine as fellow Jews.

Classifying myself as Jewish may say everything that some Christian may think important to know, but that speaks more to his or her understanding and perspective than anything else - although I admit that "other" is hardly more helpful. I classify myself as a religious naturalist who approaches religion through Judaism. That was not one of the options. :)

Stripe
May 12th, 2009, 10:50 AM
Thank you. I was raised in Southern California, lived for about a dozen years in San Francisco, and for the past three decades in the Chicago area.
Goodness me! You're all over the place, aren't you? :chuckle:

assuranceagent
May 12th, 2009, 11:13 AM
Goodness me! You're all over the place, aren't you? :chuckle:

He's lived in a number of different places too :eek:

Jayhawker Soule
May 12th, 2009, 11:37 AM
He's lived in a number of different places too :eek:Now that was funny. :chuckle:

Spitfire
May 12th, 2009, 01:55 PM
Spitfire, I meant to imply precisely what I wrote, nothing more, and what I wrote was nothing more than rudimentary fact. You might wish to google "Septuagint' for background or, if you're really interested, pick up Emanuel Tov's excellent Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Textual-Criticism-of-the-Hebrew-Bible/Emanuel-Tov/e/9780800634292).I am quite familiar with the Septuagint. :) It is central in the debate between Catholics and Protestants/Evangelicals over the canon of the Bible. Jesus himself clearly quotes the Septuagint at times in the accounts of his words in the gospels.


I have little doubt but that one can find cases of 'push back' against replacement theology and cultural rape and the tapestry of pogrom and forced conversion that characterized much of the post-Nicean history, but I suspect that most differences in position reflect differences in position. I'm certainly no expert, but I'd be happy to discuss specifics in whatever thread you might recommend.Maybe you will be happy to see that replacement theology has fallen out of favor with many modern Christians, as particularly evidenced by the views of most you will find on this website (not me, however... though I don't advocate pogroms either.)


Classifying myself as Jewish may say everything that some Christian may think important to know, but that speaks more to his or her understanding and perspective than anything else - although I admit that "other" is hardly more helpful. I classify myself as a religious naturalist who approaches religion through Judaism. That was not one of the options. :)As long as you're not another one of those who loves to ruthlessly criticize the positions of others while revealing as little as possible about one's own position, thereby denying those who would subject one to the same scrutiny a clear target. There have been a few artful dodgers who hide behind "Other" or "Christian (Other)" or even "Christian" in light of the sometimes frustrating lack of a clear consensus about what constitutes a valid Christian. It's very effective as a first line of defense if you can always deny that any criticism applies to you because you have denied others a basis for determining whether or not it does. But, it's not really persuasive. :p I'm not saying that's what you do, just that I've noticed it's a common tactic.

chickenman
May 12th, 2009, 02:02 PM
Welcome to TOL, Jayhawker.

Do high heels give you bunyons?

Jayhawker Soule
May 12th, 2009, 02:16 PM
I am quite familiar with the Septuagint.As am I, although I still suspect that we use the term differently. So, for example, I would suspect that an historical Jesus would have used a Septuagint Vorlage rather than a Greek translation. We can discuss this further if you wish but, as far as this thread is concerned, I suspect that the Septuagint, though a translation, is every bit as authentic as is the proto-Masoretic.


As long as you're not another one of those who loves to ruthlessly criticize the positions of others while revealing as little as possible about one's own position, ...I will gladly discuss my own position on any topic you wish.

Jayhawker Soule
May 12th, 2009, 02:17 PM
Welcome to TOL, Jayhawker.Thank you.

assuranceagent
May 12th, 2009, 02:39 PM
Now that was funny. :chuckle:

:cheers:

Stripe
May 12th, 2009, 10:22 PM
He's lived in a number of different places too :eek::sibbie: I'll do the jokes around here, sonny!

Martin.Harris
May 13th, 2009, 12:35 PM
Jayhawker, any connection to the University of Kansas?

assuranceagent
May 13th, 2009, 12:44 PM
:sibbie: I'll do the jokes around here, sonny!

...in the mafia sense, if what I've seen is any indication. :Plain:

Town Heretic
May 13th, 2009, 03:04 PM
:sibbie: I'll do the jokes around here, sonny!
Hope springs eternal...:Plain:


My main areas of interest are Torah and Syro-Palestinian archaeology. I look forward to our discussions. Shalom ...
Then be careful where you dive in around here unless you have a spare neck. :think:

Welcome, new guy. :e4e:

Jayhawker Soule
May 13th, 2009, 07:48 PM
Jayhawker, any connection to the University of Kansas?Absolutely none. See Silas Soule (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silas_Soule).

Jayhawker Soule
May 13th, 2009, 07:50 PM
Then be careful where you dive in around here unless you have a spare neck.Thanks for the advice. I'm sure it's a very warm place.

Martin.Harris
May 13th, 2009, 08:11 PM
Absolutely none. See Silas Soule (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silas_Soule).

OK, but the "Jayhawker" title does refer back to the state of Kansas. I went to high school in Kansas and am moving back there next year.

Stripe
May 13th, 2009, 08:41 PM
What's a "mafia joke"? :idunno:

assuranceagent
May 13th, 2009, 09:09 PM
What's a "mafia joke"? :idunno:

I meant mafia style, "do"...

"do" meaning "kill"...

My wife points out that there's no good way to give you an example that doesn't sound badly out of keeping with the forum rules :Plain:

Stripe
May 13th, 2009, 09:50 PM
I meant mafia style, "do"...

"do" meaning "kill"...

My wife points out that there's no good way to give you an example that doesn't sound badly out of keeping with the forum rules :Plain:
Hmmm ...

I know some people. Good people...

Ktoyou
May 13th, 2009, 10:07 PM
Thank you. I was raised in Southern California, lived for about a dozen years in San Francisco, and for the past three decades in the Chicago area.

Wow! I would hate Chicago, rather live in Newark. Welcome anyway:rain:

Jayhawker Soule
May 14th, 2009, 04:05 AM
Wow! I would hate Chicago, rather live in Newark.That's just wrong.