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Shibby
January 8th, 2009, 05:30 PM
Looking to read some stuff from the other side, but I can't seem to find the search function...

kmoney
January 8th, 2009, 05:33 PM
:wave2: Welcome.

There is a search button on the top menu bar thing.

Are you interested in any topics? You might be able to get some recommendations.


What kind of atheist are you? Strong? Weak?

Egbert
January 8th, 2009, 05:37 PM
There is a search button on the top menu bar thing.


It didn't show up for me until I attained "registered plus" status.

Shibby
January 8th, 2009, 05:37 PM
:wave2: Welcome.

There is a search button on the top menu bar thing.

Are you interested in any topics? You might be able to get some recommendations.


What kind of atheist are you? Strong? Weak?

Strong. I have a lot of discussions with a strong christian at work. At this time I am looking for analysis of biblical prophecies.

Is the search button a sub category or is it called something else?

kmoney
January 8th, 2009, 05:39 PM
Strong. I have a lot of discussions with a strong christian at work. At this time I am looking for analysis of biblical prophecies.

Is the search button a sub category or is it called something else?

Well, egbert has just informed me that the Search feature is only available for Registered Plus users. So you will need to wait a little until you can get that status. You don't have to subscribe or anything. I think it is related to your number of posts and/or rep power.

There are definitely some threads about biblical prophecies. I think mainly Messianic prophecies and Christ.

kmoney
January 8th, 2009, 05:43 PM
Strong. I have a lot of discussions with a strong christian at work. At this time I am looking for analysis of biblical prophecies.

Is the search button a sub category or is it called something else?

Here are a couple threads....

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1881110#post1881110

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1547458#post1547458


What makes you a strong atheist?

Shibby
January 8th, 2009, 06:54 PM
Here are a couple threads....

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1881110#post1881110

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1547458#post1547458


What makes you a strong atheist?

Thanks for the links.

Me being a strong atheist pretty much comes down to, it's just the way it is. I was raised going to church, but I never really bought into it. It always sounded like a stories at the same level as any fiction author would right. I don't mean that in an offensive way or in a way to down play your beliefs. That's just my example.

The main reason I came here was a referral by someone on a fitness board I moderate. The guy at my work referred me to tektonics.org/, but honestly he doesn't know much about forums and discussion boards. So I went with the guy I knew had experience on forums.

joky
January 11th, 2009, 02:42 AM
Hi, :rain:
I am a new user here.
I want to say hello to all.
I am joky. 26 years old Bangladeshi.
I am a business man.
I am a good responsible person.:guitar:

Shai Gar
January 11th, 2009, 02:48 AM
Gday, I'm a new user myself. I'm mostly here now for the arguments, it can get pretty decent but you need to keep your cool and your rationality about you at all times, no matter how insane some of the fundie accusations get.

There are some decent threads here. What sort of analysis are you after?

Delmar
January 11th, 2009, 03:14 AM
Looking to read some stuff from the other side, but I can't seem to find the search function...

There are times when I use google to search theologyonline. As an example if I wanted to find a thread on calvanisim, I would type "theologyonline calvanisim" into the search window. sometimes it works pretty well.

Yorzhik
January 11th, 2009, 06:25 AM
I was raised going to church
I have a question; did you believe God knew the future exhaustively when you were a Christian? In other words, did you believe God was timeless/outside of time/omniscient/foreknew the future or foresaw the future/had meticulous control of all events and movements/foreordained everyone's salvation before the foundation of the earth?


This isn't a scientific survey, but just a curiosity of mine.

Yorzhik
January 11th, 2009, 06:31 AM
Oh, to add to Delmar's post. If you put "site:www.theologyonline.com search term" (minus the quotes) in google, you will search only this site. It works rather well, and I use it sometimes instead of TOL's intrinsic search.

Shibby
January 11th, 2009, 06:48 AM
I have a question; did you believe God knew the future exhaustively when you were a Christian? In other words, did you believe God was timeless/outside of time/omniscient/foreknew the future or foresaw the future/had meticulous control of all events and movements/foreordained everyone's salvation before the foundation of the earth?


This isn't a scientific survey, but just a curiosity of mine.

I guess I kind of imagined him within our atmosphere but in a different plane of existence. I now know that I tried to think of him only because it was expected of me, not because I believed.

Delmar
January 11th, 2009, 06:57 AM
what does shibby mean/stand for.

Shibby
January 11th, 2009, 08:12 AM
what does shibby mean/stand for.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0242423/

Jefferson
January 11th, 2009, 09:02 AM
Just go to http://www.google.com/advanced_search?hl=en and type Theologyonline.com next to the box that says, "Search within a site or domain."

Sharona
January 11th, 2009, 07:17 PM
It didn't show up for me until I attained "registered plus" status.

What does "registered plus" mean?
:confused:

Knight
January 11th, 2009, 08:14 PM
What does "registered plus" mean?
:confused:Membership levels explained (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=735911&postcount=2). :up:

freelight
January 11th, 2009, 10:50 PM
~*~*~


Welcome aboard

:)






pj

Stripe
January 13th, 2009, 10:05 AM
Heya, Shibby. :wave:

bucksplasher
January 13th, 2009, 10:08 AM
replys to newbies in a row. Welcome to TOL. tWINs

assuranceagent
January 13th, 2009, 11:05 AM
There are times when I use google to search theologyonline. As an example if I wanted to find a thread on calvanisim, I would type "theologyonline calvanisim" into the search window. sometimes it works pretty well.

Can't help but think you might get stronger results were you to spell it with an 'i'.

:chuckle: ;)

Granite
January 13th, 2009, 12:00 PM
Looking to read some stuff from the other side, but I can't seem to find the search function...

Welcome! Have fun.

Shibby
January 13th, 2009, 05:55 PM
So far it has been very interesting and very entertaining. To give an example, Dawkins board to me is very interesting in an text book way (not trying to imply anything) where here it is very interesting in a sociology way.

Stripe
January 13th, 2009, 11:13 PM
So far it has been very interesting and very entertaining. To give an example, Dawkins board to me is very interesting in an text book way (not trying to imply anything) where here it is very interesting in a sociology way.

You're from Dawkin's board?

Shibby
January 14th, 2009, 05:46 AM
You're from Dawkin's board?

Yes, but I heard about this place on a fitness board.

Stripe
January 14th, 2009, 07:03 AM
Sounds logical... :D

Nick M
January 15th, 2009, 06:19 PM
Strong. I have a lot of discussions with a strong christian at work. At this time I am looking for analysis of biblical prophecies.

Is the search button a sub category or is it called something else?

Sounds like you know very little about God.

:thumb: Welcome to the discussion.

Shibby
January 15th, 2009, 06:54 PM
Sounds like you know very little about God.

:thumb: Welcome to the discussion.

All right I'm getting confused. Some Christians are saying welcome and others are saying I'm a loser and they would be happy to see me leave. What's an atheist to do ;)

Yorzhik
January 15th, 2009, 07:00 PM
I guess I kind of imagine him within our atmosphere but in a different plane of existence. I now know that I tried to think of him only because it was expected of me, not because I believed.
So is this a yes or a no?

Shibby
January 15th, 2009, 07:11 PM
So is this a yes or a no?

It's a no. I went through the motions of saying I believed, but I never did. The reason I ever tried to view God the way I did was an attempt to try and convince myself I believed. I felt I needed to believe because of the fear mongering I experienced.

Yorzhik
January 16th, 2009, 12:31 AM
It's a no. I went through the motions of saying I believed, but I never did. The reason I ever tried to view God the way I did was an attempt to try and convince myself I believed. I felt I needed to believe because of the fear mongering I experienced.
Oh. What I mean is this: your concept of the Christian God (in this case how you understand Christians see God); is it a God that knows the future exhaustively?

For instance, would you say "Christianity is stupid, look at all the evil God says He doesn't like but ordained to happen!"

Shibby
January 16th, 2009, 08:36 AM
I look at it to be no different than any other. It's no more or less crazy than the next religion, it's just not the right answer for me. The purpose for trying to learn more is to better understand why people choose religion. The better I understand religion the better I will be at expressing my views in a way that those who practice a religion/relationship will understand them. It's a major curiosity for me. It just happens that Christianity is predominant in my country (U.S.) so that's why I focus on it.

GuySmiley
January 16th, 2009, 09:29 AM
All right I'm getting confused. Some Christians are saying welcome and others are saying I'm a loser and they would be happy to see me leave. What's an atheist to do ;)
I suggest sticking around, but feeling like a loser on the inside :thumb:

Yorzhik
January 16th, 2009, 09:31 AM
I look at it to be no different than any other. It's no more or less crazy than the next religion, it's just not the right answer for me. The purpose for trying to learn more is to better understand why people choose religion. The better I understand religion the better I will be at expressing my views in a way that those who practice a religion/relationship will understand them. It's a major curiosity for me. It just happens that Christianity is predominant in my country (U.S.) so that's why I focus on it.
You've pretty much just answered "yes". But before you said you answered "no". Why the contradiction? Perhaps you don't understand what I'm asking.

I'm asking about a specific point about the nature of God (as how you would understand Christians believe it). There is no way to consider 'a god' without deciding whether that particular god has an exhaustive knowledge of the future, or not. For an exhaustive knowledge of the future would be the purview of only the gods so one would have to assign this attribute to any god considered, or not.

Shibby
January 16th, 2009, 09:47 AM
We are definitely not on the same page. I will start with one thing and we can take it from there. I do not give any recognition to any god.

Stripe
January 16th, 2009, 10:05 AM
We are definitely not on the same page. I will start with one thing and we can take it from there. I do not give any recognition to any god.

Gee, you're going to be a whole lot of fun :Plain:

Yorzhik
January 16th, 2009, 10:38 AM
We are definitely not on the same page. I will start with one thing and we can take it from there. I do not give any recognition to any god.
Yes, you've been quite clear about that. It really appears that you are not paying attention on purpose. I certainly am not asking you to give any god any recognition.

Consider this; one of the reasons I don't give Buddhism any recognition is because of their notion that you must bang your head against the door post everytime you walk through a door. I just walk through to many doors for that. I'm sure you don't give Christianity recognition for reasons. The reason I'm asking about is intrinsic to all gods.

Quincy
January 16th, 2009, 10:50 AM
Strong. I have a lot of discussions with a strong christian at work. At this time I am looking for analysis of biblical prophecies.

Is the search button a sub category or is it called something else?

Watch the History Channel.

Shibby
January 16th, 2009, 12:42 PM
It really appears that you are not paying attention on purpose.

No. I think you are trying to ask about something that doesn't' matter to me. If it is an attempt to try and make me look stupid, I don't care. I'm not here to prove myself, so if to you it seems like the question needs to be dumbed down, than please do.

ddevonb
January 16th, 2009, 12:47 PM
Looking to read some stuff from the other side, but I can't seem to find the search function...

Are you just new to forum or new to atheism?

ddevonb
January 16th, 2009, 12:51 PM
There are times when I use google to search theologyonline. As an example if I wanted to find a thread on calvanisim, I would type "theologyonline calvanisim" into the search window. sometimes it works pretty well.


It works even better if you spell it Calvinism. :)

Shibby
January 16th, 2009, 12:51 PM
Are you just new to forum or new to atheism?

New to the forum.

ddevonb
January 16th, 2009, 01:00 PM
All right I'm getting confused. Some Christians are saying welcome and others are saying I'm a loser and they would be happy to see me leave. What's an atheist to do ;)

I see no conflict.

You are welcome if you behave.

You're a loser because you're an atheist.

If you misbehave, i'm happy to see you leave.

I hope that clears things up for you.

Yorzhik
January 16th, 2009, 01:01 PM
No. I think you are trying to ask about something that doesn't' matter to me. If it is an attempt to try and make me look stupid, I don't care. I'm not here to prove myself, so if to you it seems like the question needs to be dumbed down, than please do.
Obviously, it isn't important to you. I took a survey on some software that I used and didn't find useful. It didn't matter to me, but I thought it would make the world a better place if they could get a clue from my answers and make better software.

So you are afraid I'm trying to make you look stupid? Your obfuscation is the only thing that is making you look bad. And I'm not trying to make you look stupid. In fact, your answer, I'm pretty sure, will tend to make some other Christians look stupid. Or, you could tend to make me look stupid. Either way you answer, you won't look stupid but some Christians will.

ddevonb
January 16th, 2009, 01:05 PM
Slogan/motto:
To challenge Christians until I become a Christian or the Christian becomes hostile.


While I don't doubt your willingness to challenge Christians, I really doubt that you really open to any evidence that God is real.

If you are, I challenge you to read the debate "Does God exist?"
(http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7709)
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7709

Yorzhik
January 16th, 2009, 01:08 PM
Slogan/motto:
To challenge Christians until I become a Christian or the Christian becomes hostile.


While I don't doubt your willingness to challenge Christians, I really doubt that you really open to any evidence that God is real.

If you are, I challenge you to read the debate "Does God exist?"
(http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7709)
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7709
And challenging without reciprocating won't get him too far, either.

Shibby
January 16th, 2009, 01:11 PM
I'm not trying to be disrespectful or make things difficult. I simply don't understand what you are trying to ask. Maybe it's some of the vocabulary you are using I'm not use to...

Shibby
January 16th, 2009, 01:39 PM
Slogan/motto:
To challenge Christians until I become a Christian or the Christian becomes hostile.

I really doubt that you really open to any evidence that God is real.
]

It may seem like an impossible task, but if something presented to me was convincing enough I wouldn't deny being convinced.

GuySmiley
January 16th, 2009, 02:04 PM
I'm not trying to be disrespectful or make things difficult. I simply don't understand what you are trying to ask. Maybe it's some of the vocabulary you are using I'm not use to...
You said you were raised Christian. I think he's asking you when you believed in God, did you believe God knew the future exhaustively. I think your answer is that you never did believe in God. You were raised Christian, but never believed it. Right? Or maybe that you were too young to have any thoughts about whether or not God knew the future or not?

Shibby
January 16th, 2009, 02:15 PM
You said you were raised Christian. I think he's asking you when you believed in God, did you believe God knew the future exhaustively. I think your answer is that you never did believe in God. You were raised Christian, but never believed it. Right? Or maybe that you were too young to have any thoughts about whether or not God knew the future or not?

When I was young I didn't think that deeply about. I just went through the motions. As I got older and started thinking about it, my thoughts weren't about the extensiveness of god. They were about why do I believe in god at all. I tried to figure out where I imagined him to be and where his powers lay. But those questions weren't my questions, so they didn't give me my answers. I think as people we try to hard to take the paths that others found successful. I gave it a look but, as I said previously, I quickly found that I wasn't getting my answers. I then started to ask myself what makes me happy and didn't spend any more time on the relevance of religion.

Shibby
January 17th, 2009, 08:01 AM
Slogan/motto:
To challenge Christians until I become a Christian or the Christian becomes hostile.


While I don't doubt your willingness to challenge Christians, I really doubt that you really open to any evidence that God is real.

If you are, I challenge you to read the debate "Does God exist?"
(http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7709)
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7709

Man that was a lot of nothing to get a few highlights, from both sides (Why I believe Zakath found better things to do with his time). A debate like this only strengthens my atheism. Not because I agree or disagree with either side. It comes down to the theists claim that our enormous intelligence, on the many of very difficult subjects, is not enough information to look to science for some if any answers; but it is perfectly ok to take the words of one book primarily on faith.

Agape4Robin
January 17th, 2009, 08:14 AM
Man that was a lot of nothing to get a few highlights, from both sides (Why I believe Zakath found better things to do with his time). A debate like this only strengthens my atheism. Not because I agree or disagree with either side. It comes down to the theists claim that our enormous intelligence, on the many of very difficult subjects, is not enough information to look to science for some if any answers; but it is perfectly ok to take the words of one book primarily on faith.That's why it's called "faith", genius. :rolleyes: Takes just as much faith to believe that there is no God as it does to believe that there is. :thumb:

Shibby
January 17th, 2009, 08:50 AM
That's why it's called "faith", genius. :rolleyes: Takes just as much faith to believe that there is no God as it does to believe that there is. :thumb:

It doesn't take faith, to not believe something.



^and I will go ahead and submit myself to being unintelligent or stupid or what ever other witty things one wants to imply for their personal reassurance in their faith to tear up one true, simple statement.

Stripe
January 17th, 2009, 09:57 AM
It doesn't take faith, to not believe something.

I do not believe the sun exists.

Shibby
January 17th, 2009, 11:19 AM
I do not believe the sun exists.

Do you believe a sunburn exists?

Yorzhik
January 17th, 2009, 11:49 AM
I tried to figure out where I imagined him to be and where his powers lay.
What powers, in what kind of locations?

Shibby
January 17th, 2009, 11:58 AM
What powers, in what kind of locations?

What had been preached to me. But I quickly realized that didn't matter to me and it didn't matter to me if it was preached right.

Stripe
January 17th, 2009, 08:04 PM
Do you believe a sunburn exists?

Yeah, but that's a government conspiracy. Not evidence for a "sun". :chuckle:

Zeus
January 17th, 2009, 08:19 PM
That's why it's called "faith", genius. :rolleyes: Takes just as much faith to believe that there is no God as it does to believe that there is. :thumb:

It takes honesty and insight to admit you can't know.

Shibby
January 18th, 2009, 06:16 AM
Yeah, but that's a government conspiracy. Not evidence for a "sun". :chuckle:

:maxi:

ddevonb
January 18th, 2009, 09:04 AM
It comes down to the theists claim that our enormous intelligence, on the many of very difficult subjects, is not enough information to look to science for some if any answers; but it is perfectly ok to take the words of one book primarily on faith.

In fact most of the theists i know are big fans of science as true science attempts to explain how the physical world works.

I know no theist that rejects any scientific laws. I know many who disagree with certain scientific theories... which is not disagreeing with science... just disagreeing with the conclusions of some scientists.

True science is not a democracy. It is not dependant on the opinions of the majority... even if it's a super majority.

Every scientific theory I reject is because it doesn't make scientific logical sense to me.

Stripe
January 18th, 2009, 10:41 PM
:maxi:

:chuckle:

Beloved Warrior
January 20th, 2009, 12:27 PM
Looking to read some stuff from the other side, but I can't seem to find the search function...


Slogan/motto "To challenge Christians until I become a Christian or the Christian becomes hostile."

How's the search coming along?

Shibby
January 20th, 2009, 01:07 PM
How's the search coming along?

Still have a few more rocks to look under and a few more prisons to visit.

Shibby
January 20th, 2009, 01:08 PM
Hey, maybe that should be my new slogan :D

Yorzhik
January 20th, 2009, 01:54 PM
What had been preached to me. But I quickly realized that didn't matter to me and it didn't matter to me if it was preached right.
What had been preached to you? I'm talking about the part you thought about later.

Shibby
January 20th, 2009, 06:34 PM
What had been preached to you? I'm talking about the part you thought about later.

lol This is definitely getting us no where. I think you are asking a question that there just isn't an answer too.

Stripe
January 20th, 2009, 09:42 PM
Shibby. What is your number one reason for rejecting the risen saviour, Jesus Christ?

Shibby
January 20th, 2009, 10:20 PM
Shibby. What is your number one reason for rejecting the risen saviour, Jesus Christ?

What is your number one reason for rejecting the Kryptonian savior Kal-El?

Stripe
January 20th, 2009, 10:34 PM
What is your number one reason for rejecting the Kryptonian savior Kal-El?

Who?

Shibby
January 20th, 2009, 10:37 PM
It was more of a rhetorical question, to show you that your question sounds the same to me as mine did to you. Unfortunately you don't know who superman is so it didn't quite work lol :)

Stripe
January 20th, 2009, 11:02 PM
It was more of a rhetorical question, to show you that your question sounds the same to me as mine did to you. Unfortunately you don't know who superman is so it didn't quite work lol :)

:squint: Asking about faith in a cartoon character is the same as asking about faith in a real man who claimed to be God?

I reject superman as saviour because he is a fictional character. That would be reason number one. Why do you reject Christ?

Shibby
January 21st, 2009, 05:33 AM
:squint: Asking about faith in a cartoon character is the same as asking about faith in a real man who claimed to be God?

I reject superman as saviour because he is a fictional character. That would be reason number one. Why do you reject Christ?
I don't really know how to help you grasp the idea that it's all the same to me. I know the Santa Claus analogy is used a lot, but I probably believed more in Santa as a kid than I did in Jesus.

Stripe
January 21st, 2009, 07:30 AM
I don't really know how to help you grasp the idea that it's all the same to me. I know the Santa Claus analogy is used a lot, but I probably believed more in Santa as a kid than I did in Jesus.

So you think Jesus is just a character someone made up?

Shibby
January 21st, 2009, 07:45 AM
So you think Jesus is just a character someone made up?

I think the character of Jesus is made up. If he was a real person or not is irrelevant to me.

Truppenzwei
January 21st, 2009, 07:59 AM
I think the character of Jesus is made up. If he was a real person or not is irrelevant to me.

Right, so as far as you are concerned studying history equates to studying comic books......wow, what application of logic and reason.


Regards
T.

Shibby
January 21st, 2009, 08:06 AM
Right, so as far as you are concerned studying history equates to studying comic books......wow, what application of logic and reason.


Regards
T.


If you are coming in this thread just to get offended you are wasting everyones time. Studying the history of christianaty and the history of Jesus is not the same. I can study the socialogical effects of comics on society without studying much about Superman.

Truppenzwei
January 21st, 2009, 08:09 AM
If you are coming in this thread just to get offended you are wasting everyones time. Studying the history of christianaty and the history of Jesus is not the same. I can study the socialogical effects of comics on society without studying much about Superman.

No but to equate Jesus with Santa Claus and Superman is to basically discount the vast chunks of historical evidence that Jesus actually existed.

Are you really saying that Jesus didn't exist?

Regards
T.

Stripe
January 21st, 2009, 08:13 AM
I think the character of Jesus is made up. If he was a real person or not is irrelevant to me.

On what evidence?

Shibby
January 21st, 2009, 08:22 AM
On what evidence?

I think you already know a lot of those answers and getting into this will resolve nothing.

Stripe
January 21st, 2009, 09:04 AM
I think you already know a lot of those answers and getting into this will resolve nothing.

Not at all! You seem to believe that someone or some group invented a character called Jesus. Can you tell us why you believe that?

Shibby
January 21st, 2009, 09:45 AM
Why do you believe someone wouldn't invent a character to give hope? Again, that's more of rhetorical question, but I'm trying to show that the questions may give an answer, but it doesn't make it the right answer.

Stripe
January 21st, 2009, 10:07 AM
Why do you believe someone wouldn't invent a character to give hope? Again, that's more of rhetorical question, but I'm trying to show that the questions may give an answer, but it doesn't make it the right answer.

The question is: Why do you reject Christ as saviour?

The "right answer" to that is probably going to be whatever you say it is.

Shibby
January 21st, 2009, 10:15 AM
Do you believe it's possible that someone would invent or highly embellish the stories of Jesus for personal motives? If you say no, then you belive no man is capable of this. If you say yes then you have a reason why I believe anyone has reason or cause for doing so.

Stripe
January 21st, 2009, 10:29 AM
Do you believe it's possible that someone would invent or highly embellish the stories of Jesus for personal motives? If you say no, then you belive no man is capable of this. If you say yes then you have a reason why I believe anyone has reason or cause for doing so.

Not only do I believe it is possible, but there are also numerous examples of it.

Is your answer that you reject Christ because people embellish stories?

Shibby
January 21st, 2009, 10:34 AM
I don't accept christ as an answer for many of reasons. Why do you accept christ knowing that people lie, cheat and steal since the beginning of time. To me you are accepting ancient stories when to me it's illogical to just take their word for it.

Stripe
January 21st, 2009, 10:41 AM
I don't accept christ as an answer for many of reasons. Why do you accept christ knowing that people lie, cheat and steal since the beginning of time. To me you are accepting ancient stories when to me it's illogical to just take their word for it.

If you're not prepared to take people's word then you're not prepared to believe much at all...

Just give us one good reason...

Shibby
January 21st, 2009, 10:49 AM
I don't really know how to help you grasp the idea that it's all the same to me. I know the Santa Claus analogy is used a lot, but I probably believed more in Santa as a kid than I did in Jesus.

^I'm really confused on how this is hypocrytical.

Shibby
January 21st, 2009, 10:50 AM
If you're not prepared to take people's word then you're not prepared to believe much at all...

Just give us one good reason that I accept as a good reason...

You didn't finish your sentence.

Stripe
January 21st, 2009, 10:51 AM
^I'm really confused on how this is hypocrytical.

Who said it was?

Stripe
January 21st, 2009, 10:52 AM
You didn't finish your sentence.You didn't answer the question.

Shibby
January 21st, 2009, 10:54 AM
Who said it was?

I don't know, I can't see that yet ;)

Shibby
January 21st, 2009, 10:55 AM
You didn't answer the question.


Except I did, you just don't like the answer.

Mr. 5020
January 21st, 2009, 11:02 AM
I don't accept christ as an answer for many of reasons. Why do you accept christ knowing that people lie, cheat and steal since the beginning of time. To me you are accepting ancient stories when to me it's illogical to just take their word for it.Yes, people have lied, cheated and stolen for thousands of years. Nevertheless, I believe that George Washington existed. I believe he existed because of the evidence that indicates his existence. However, if I wanted to, I could say that Washington never existed, because people lie, cheat and steal.

Truppenzwei
January 21st, 2009, 11:05 AM
^I'm really confused on how this is hypocrytical.

It is hypocritical to equate Jesus with Santa Claus and Superman. The simple fact of the matter is that there is plenty of historical, scientific evidence that Jesus existed - denying this and saying he is a mad-up character is hypocritical if one purports to only make decisions based on the evidence - as atheists tend to claim.

It was me that negrepped you. I didn't realise you couldn't see who repped you - must be a subscriber-level thing.

Regards
T.

Stripe
January 21st, 2009, 11:09 AM
You think someone made Jesus up.

That's your answer? That's the best reason you have for rejecting your saviour?

Shibby
January 21st, 2009, 01:25 PM
It is hypocritical to equate Jesus with Santa Claus and Superman. The simple fact of the matter is that there is plenty of historical, scientific evidence that Jesus existed - denying this and saying he is a mad-up character is hypocritical if one purports to only make decisions based on the evidence - as atheists tend to claim.

It was me that negrepped you. I didn't realise you couldn't see who repped you - must be a subscriber-level thing.

Regards
T.

If I were to hand someone that has no idea what religion is, a bible and a stack of superman comic books, they would not be able to tell which is more true. Superman has events happening during historical events. But again, I haven't decided if I think Jesus was a real person or not, just that I don't believe the stories about him are very accurate if at all. I'm not trying to offend anyone, I am just trying to answer questions in way that give you an idea to how I, as an atheist, see things differently.

Shibby
January 21st, 2009, 01:27 PM
You think someone made Jesus up.

That's your answer? That's the best reason you have for rejecting your saviour?

Not the best, just one of them. I don't think I could give you my "best" reason. I have have never tried to place a value on each reason.

Shibby
January 21st, 2009, 01:28 PM
Yes, people have lied, cheated and stolen for thousands of years. Nevertheless, I believe that George Washington existed. I believe he existed because of the evidence that indicates his existence. However, if I wanted to, I could say that Washington never existed, because people lie, cheat and steal.

If it was that simple, we wouldn't be here online right now.

WandererInFog
January 21st, 2009, 01:38 PM
If I were to hand someone that has no idea what religion is, a bible and a stack of superman comic books, they would not be able to tell which is more true. Superman has events happening during historical events. But again, I haven't decided if I think Jesus was a real person or not, just that I don't believe the stories about him are very accurate if at all. I'm not trying to offend anyone, I am just trying to answer questions in way that give you an idea to how I, as an atheist, see things differently.

There HUGE difference between disputing the absolute accuracy of the Gospels and flying off into "Jesus was a myth" land.

It will never cease to confound me how certain atheists will berate fundamentalist Christian for rejecting the broad scientific consensus in favor of Evolution, but then turn right around and in engage in precisely the same sort of thinking they criticize to hold to the "Jesus myth hypothesis".

Shibby
January 21st, 2009, 01:41 PM
I don't recall ever discussing evolution.

Yorzhik
January 21st, 2009, 04:51 PM
I don't recall ever discussing evolution.
You can be coy, but don't be stupid.

Shibby
January 21st, 2009, 05:03 PM
I've been very careful here to play nice in "your" house. My answers aren't meant to answer your questions, they are meant to answer mine. Just because I am atheist doesn't mean I completely subscribe to evolution as our beginning. Sure it sounds nice, but it's not something I worry about. I will wait for the answer to be found or die not believing. It's that simple.

Truppenzwei
January 21st, 2009, 06:06 PM
If I were to hand someone that has no idea what religion is, a bible and a stack of superman comic books, they would not be able to tell which is more true. Superman has events happening during historical events. But again, I haven't decided if I think Jesus was a real person or not, just that I don't believe the stories about him are very accurate if at all. I'm not trying to offend anyone, I am just trying to answer questions in way that give you an idea to how I, as an atheist, see things differently.


So what evidence has led you to the belief that there is no God?

Regards
T.

Shibby
January 21st, 2009, 06:13 PM
Again wrong question. Your question make sense to you because you feel the only way not to believe is to be led away. It's not about what evidence led me away, it's there wasn't the evidence to lead me to Christianity.

Truppenzwei
January 21st, 2009, 06:18 PM
Again wrong question. Your question make sense to you because you feel the only way not to believe is to be led away. It's not about what evidence led me away, it's there wasn't the evidence to lead me to Christianity.


Atheism is a belief that there is no god. It is not that you think Christianity wrong - it is that you believe there is no god. i.e There is no zeus, God, jehovah, allah, krishna etc.

If you are saying you don't know if there is a god or not then you are an agnostic, an atheist is someone that is sure there is no god.

So again I ask, what evidence led you to the belief that there is no god.

Regards
T.

Shibby
January 21st, 2009, 06:33 PM
I always love when a theist tell ME how to be an atheist. I don't believe man is intelligent enough at this time to say how we came to be. I sure don't believe man was intelligent enough 2000+ years ago to say how we came to be. Believers say that if someone/something appeared and started doing things that science couldn't explain, it would only be the the true god if it matches up with their story of the return. If we are so unintelligent now to determine what a force like that would mean or what to believe(as a whole), how in the world could a primitive group be intelligent enough to get it right 2000 years ago. When a person today claims to be god in what ever way they choose, we classify them as schizophrenic. 2000 years ago if there was a Jesus he would be classified as the same if they knew what it meant. That or a con-artist.

Mr. 5020
January 21st, 2009, 11:19 PM
If it was that simple, we wouldn't be here online right now.It is that simple.

Stripe
January 21st, 2009, 11:26 PM
It is that simple.:up:

Truppenzwei
January 22nd, 2009, 03:20 AM
I always love when a theist tell ME how to be an atheist. I don't believe man is intelligent enough at this time to say how we came to be. I sure don't believe man was intelligent enough 2000+ years ago to say how we came to be. Believers say that if someone/something appeared and started doing things that science couldn't explain, it would only be the the true god if it matches up with their story of the return. If we are so unintelligent now to determine what a force like that would mean or what to believe(as a whole), how in the world could a primitive group be intelligent enough to get it right 2000 years ago. When a person today claims to be god in what ever way they choose, we classify them as schizophrenic. 2000 years ago if there was a Jesus he would be classified as the same if they knew what it meant. That or a con-artist.

I'm not telling you how to be an atheist - I'm simply asking you what led you to become one? It isn't that hard a question surely?

Regards
T.

Stripe
January 22nd, 2009, 05:23 AM
I don't think Shibbley is very sure of what he believes .. :chuckle:

Frank Ernest
January 22nd, 2009, 07:35 AM
I always love when a theist tell ME how to be an atheist. I don't believe man is intelligent enough at this time to say how we came to be. I sure don't believe man was intelligent enough 2000+ years ago to say how we came to be. Believers say that if someone/something appeared and started doing things that science couldn't explain, it would only be the the true god if it matches up with their story of the return. If we are so unintelligent now to determine what a force like that would mean or what to believe(as a whole), how in the world could a primitive group be intelligent enough to get it right 2000 years ago. When a person today claims to be god in what ever way they choose, we classify them as schizophrenic. 2000 years ago if there was a Jesus he would be classified as the same if they knew what it meant. That or a con-artist.
You assume that the knowledge of the existence of God can only proceed from the intelligence of man. You assume that man is not now intelligent enough to "get it right." Going along with your assumptions, I would conclude that if there is a God, He would have to reveal Himself to us in some way.

Secondarily, the idea that "man is not intelligent enough" can also lead to the rejection of any and all evidence, that reveals this God, based on this self-fulfilling precept.

Shibby
January 22nd, 2009, 08:37 AM
I'm not telling you how to be an atheist - I'm simply asking you what led you to become one? It isn't that hard a question surely?

Regards
T.

I think Yorzhik's comment about being coy but not stupid fits perfectly here or maybe you just can't read. I wasn't led to be an atheist, I always have been one.

Shibby
January 22nd, 2009, 08:38 AM
It is that simple.

I think you are confusing something being simple versus something being simple minded.

Truppenzwei
January 22nd, 2009, 08:42 AM
I think Yorzhik's comment about being coy but not stupid fits perfectly here or maybe you just can't read. I wasn't led to be an atheist, I always have been one.

So you have always believed that there is no God - why?

Regards
T.

Shibby
January 22nd, 2009, 08:47 AM
You assume that the knowledge of the existence of God can only proceed from the intelligence of man. You assume that man is not now intelligent enough to "get it right." Going along with your assumptions, I would conclude that if there is a God, He would have to reveal Himself to us in some way.

Secondarily, the idea that "man is not intelligent enough" can also lead to the rejection of any and all evidence, that reveals this God, based on this self-fulfilling precept.

At this point for me to believe in a deity, one would have to prove itself or science would have to find a controversial free piece of evidence. I don't have a problem living my life not knowing the answers. At this point, running with any of the current "answers" would also take a bit a faith in any direction. I don't have that faith. I don't have any faith or trust that people around 2,000 years ago had any idea what was going on in the physical world around them. If I make the assumption there is a deity, I can't believe it would find a need to present itself to such an unintelligent group and not present itself now.

Shibby
January 22nd, 2009, 08:48 AM
So you have always believed that there is no God - why?

Regards
T.

Pleas prove the non-existence of the celestial teapot

Truppenzwei
January 22nd, 2009, 08:50 AM
Pleas prove the non-existence of the celestial teapot
Please just answer the question.

Regards
T.

Shibby
January 22nd, 2009, 09:01 AM
Please just answer the question.

Regards
T.

Here's the problem with your questions that aren't really questions. If I can't prove to you why I don't believe then by default I should just believe. Well which do I believe? By default I should just pick Christianity since my global positioning? All this is pretty much just Pascal's wager. You are asking me to prove a non-existence. The burden of proof is not on me. I am not the one making the claim that something exists.

Shibby
January 22nd, 2009, 09:17 AM
Prove to me there is a God without using scripture.

Truppenzwei
January 22nd, 2009, 09:40 AM
Here's the problem with your questions that aren't really questions. If I can't prove to you why I don't believe then by default I should just believe. Well which do I believe? By default I should just pick Christianity since my global positioning? All this is pretty much just Pascal's wager. You are asking me to prove a non-existence. The burden of proof is not on me. I am not the one making the claim that something exists.

By saying you are an atheist you are saying there is definitely no god. If however you are saying you don't know then that would be an agnostic.

I don't mind what you believe I'm just asking you to explain it.

I'll try and simplify the questions for you as you seem to have trouble grasping a question - either that or you are being deliberately obtuse to dodge the questions.

Question 1:
Is there a God?
Options;
a) Yes
b) No
c) Maybe

What is your answer a, b or c?

And whichever one you pick, Could you please explain why that is your answer?

Regards
T.

Shibby
January 22nd, 2009, 09:46 AM
No, you are trying to bait me into discussing things within your theological world.

I give you this as an example, this is Dawkins 7 point atheist scale.

1. Strong Theist: I do not question the existence of God, I KNOW he exists.
2. De-facto Theist: I cannot know for certain but I strongly believe in God and I live my life on the assumption that he is there.
3. Weak Theist: I am very uncertain, but I am inclined to believe in God.
4. Pure Agnostic: God’s existence and non-existence are exactly equiprobable.
5. Weak Atheist: I do not know whether God exists but I’m inclined to be skeptical.
6. De-facto Atheist: I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable and I live my life under the assumption that he is not there.
7. Strong Atheist: I am 100% sure that there is no God.


I am a 6. To be a 1 or 7 you would have to be intellectually dishonest.

Truppenzwei
January 22nd, 2009, 09:51 AM
No, you are trying to bait me into discussing things within your theological world.

I give you this as an example, this is Dawkins 7 point atheist scale.

1. Strong Theist: I do not question the existence of God, I KNOW he exists.
2. De-facto Theist: I cannot know for certain but I strongly believe in God and I live my life on the assumption that he is there.
3. Weak Theist: I am very uncertain, but I am inclined to believe in God.
4. Pure Agnostic: Godís existence and non-existence are exactly equiprobable.
5. Weak Atheist: I do not know whether God exists but Iím inclined to be skeptical.
6. De-facto Atheist: I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable and I live my life under the assumption that he is not there.
7. Strong Atheist: I am 100% sure that there is no God.


I am a 6. To be a 1 or 7 you would have to be intellectually dishonest.

If you want to talk about intellectual dishonesty then dawkins is definitely your man.

So you don't know if there is or isn't a god - ergo you are an agnostic. Thanks for clearing that up.

I questioned the existence of God and now know he exists - where does that put me on your little friends scale?

Regards
T.

DoogieTalons
January 22nd, 2009, 09:58 AM
I disagree with this scale, I am sure there is no God.

I'm not being intellectually dishonest when I say am am sure there is no Santa.

The fact is this, I know there is no God. I am happy with this knowledge and I am happy that I have this conclusion.

We can drive ourselves mad with the metaphysical questions of whether my desk really is a desk and if it's all an arrangement of energy why don't I pass through it blah blah blah... we can only work with what we have.

Religion, holds no water, it asks for faith and I have none.

There is no God and there never was, Man invented the concept of God and thats all we can possibly know.

Truppenzwei
January 22nd, 2009, 10:00 AM
I disagree with this scale, I am sure there is no God.

I'm not being intellectually dishonest when I say am am sure there is no Santa.

The fact is this, I know there is no God. I am happy with this knowledge and I am happy that I have this conclusion.

We can drive ourselves mad with the metaphysical questions of whether my desk really is a desk and if it's all an arrangement of energy why don't I pass through it blah blah blah... we can only work with what we have.

Religion, holds no water, it asks for faith and I have none.

There is no God and there never was, Man invented the concept of God and thats all we can possibly know.

There you go Shibby,

I'm totally sure that doogie is saying what he believes. I might think he is mistaken in his belief but I don't think he is being intellectually dishonest about it.

What about you?

Regards
T.

IoverE
January 22nd, 2009, 10:29 AM
Please just answer the question.

Regards
T.

Trupp,
Could you please tell us why you don't believe in purple snarfwidgets? Please in detail, explain what led you away from believing in snarfwidgets. Can you really not see how ridiculous your question is?

Truppenzwei
January 22nd, 2009, 10:58 AM
Trupp,
Could you please tell us why you don't believe in purple snarfwidgets? Please in detail, explain what led you away from believing in snarfwidgets. Can you really not see how ridiculous your question is?
I don't know if snarfwidgets exist or not - so I would have to say I was agnostic about them. What I am not doing is claiming that they don't exist, going onto a site of people who claim they do exist and saying "snarfwidgets Don't exist" and then not giving any reasons why I assert what I assert.

Glad to see you are back IoverE.

Regards
T.

Shibby
January 22nd, 2009, 11:14 AM
If you want to talk about intellectual dishonesty then dawkins is definitely your man.

So you don't know if there is or isn't a god - ergo you are an agnostic. Thanks for clearing that up.

I questioned the existence of God and now know he exists - where does that put me on your little friends scale?

Regards
T.

Should I go ahead give you a label as fact or should I let you say what you are? My problem with calling myself agnostic is that you will be making completely different assumptions of me and the view points are further from mine than atheistic ones. It's a loose, loose situation. You are so indoctrinated that it's all about the labels and the only "right" label is Christianity. Ultimately I call my self nothing. I am not a atheist, agnostic, deist... I am Shibby. I didn't make these labels and adhering to them only makes others happy. Using the atheist label is what most closely fits to my views and it allows me to move onto more important issues than trying to explain my label. I know others talk about how it just helps to not have to quantify every last word. I agree with that. I don't have a problem with Doogie saying he knows there is no god. I don't agree with it. If he knew there was no god, he would be able to show it without a shadow of doubt. Just like anyone that knows there is a god, has a way of showing it without of a shadow of doubt. If either of these were true we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Truppenzwei
January 22nd, 2009, 11:30 AM
Should I go ahead give you a label as fact or should I let you say what you are? My problem with calling myself agnostic is that you will be making completely different assumptions of me and the view points are further from mine than atheistic ones. It's a loose, loose situation. You are so indoctrinated that it's all about the labels and the only "right" label is Christianity. Ultimately I call my self nothing. I am not a atheist, agnostic, deist... I am Shibby. I didn't make these labels and adhering to them only makes others happy. Using the atheist label is what most closely fits to my views and it allows me to move onto more important issues than trying to explain my label. I know others talk about how it just helps to not have to quantify every last word. I agree with that. I don't have a problem with Doogie saying he knows there is no god. I don't agree with it. If he knew there was no god, he would be able to show it without a shadow of doubt. Just like anyone that knows there is a god, has a way of showing it without of a shadow of doubt. If either of these were true we wouldn't be having this conversation.

You are correct when you say labels aren't helpful with describing our views accurately. Thus I am perplexed why, when I asked you to clarify your beliefs/views, rather than clarifying them you have done nothing but avoid answering my request. I am more than happy to class you as other.

Perhaps now you would be willing to actually state your views?

Regards
T.

Shibby
January 22nd, 2009, 11:34 AM
What I am not doing is claiming that they don't exist, going onto a site of people who claim they do exist and saying "snarfwidgets Don't exist" and then not giving any reasons why I assert what I assert.

What is it with all the assumptions. Do you hate people because of their skin color too? I didn't come here to tell people they were wrong. I have pretty much (maybe completely, I can't remember) not posted in any theological threads. If I did post it was only to get clarification of a post. I am here to learn more about the sociological effects of Christianity. Within this I will get into there being more than one way to look at things. Kind of a devil advocate of sorts. I do not approach anything in a manner of trying to change anyone to atheism. I will however not passively sit by when accusations about non-believers are falsely being made.

Truppenzwei
January 22nd, 2009, 11:39 AM
What is it with all the assumptions. Do you hate people because of their skin color too? I didn't come here to tell people they were wrong. I have pretty much (maybe completely, I can't remember) not posted in any theological threads. If I did post it was only to get clarification of a post. I am here to learn more about the sociological effects of Christianity. Within this I will get into there being more than one way to look at things. Kind of a devil advocate of sorts. I do not approach anything in a manner of trying to change anyone to atheism. I will however not passively sit by when accusations about non-believers are falsely being made.
I assumed from your earlier choice of identfying your affiliation as atheist that you were an atheist - an assumption, but a reasonable one.

Someone who defines himself publicly as an atheist on a theist website is by definition saying to the majority of users that they are wrong in what they believe, and should be prepared for the consequences of that definition.

Now that you have changed the tag to other it shouldn't be an issue.

I don't hate atheists at all. I don't hate anyone as far as I am aware, other than myself at times.

Regards
T.

Shibby
January 22nd, 2009, 11:44 AM
You are correct when you say labels aren't helpful with describing our views accurately. Thus I am perplexed why, when I asked you to clarify your beliefs/views, rather than clarifying them you have done nothing but avoid answering my request. I am more than happy to class you as other.

Perhaps now you would be willing to actually state your views?

Regards
T.

I don't like to state overall views. I don't like painting a broad brush over anything I don't want people to do the same to me. I will give my view on specifics, but not on just as an overall kind of thing.

Shibby
January 22nd, 2009, 11:48 AM
I assumed from your earlier choice of identfying your affiliation as atheist that you were an atheist - an assumption, but a reasonable one.

Someone who defines himself publicly as an atheist on a theist website is by definition saying to the majority of users that they are wrong in what they believe, and should be prepared for the consequences of that definition.

Now that you have changed the tag to other it shouldn't be an issue.

I don't hate atheists at all. I don't hate anyone as far as I am aware, other than myself at times.

Regards
T.

That did cause confusion in this instance. I am just use to atheism giving my a good enough base model to work from to save time since it is probably about 90% how I view things. I understand the conflict of being an atheist on a theist board. That's why I avoid it to an extent since I'm not here for a fight.

Truppenzwei
January 22nd, 2009, 03:25 PM
That did cause confusion in this instance. I am just use to atheism giving my a good enough base model to work from to save time since it is probably about 90% how I view things. I understand the conflict of being an atheist on a theist board. That's why I avoid it to an extent since I'm not here for a fight.

fair nuff

Regards
T.

Shibby
January 22nd, 2009, 06:51 PM
I have the search function now, YAY!!!:Party: