Salvation by blood

There are two things that I have heard Bob Enyart talk about that taken together, bring up a simple question that I have not heard him address. First is that history has shown that people in general, Christians included, are evil. For purposes of discussion, assume that 80% of all people grow up to basically reject God.

Second – Bob maintains the commonly held idea that infants that tragically die in infancy go to live with God.

I presume Bob and many of his followers truly believe in these two ideas. Then simply put, if one of those supporters were presented with the opportunity to cause the untimely death of tens of thousands of children – say 50,000 children - should they do it? To do so would guarantee the person's own damnation, both from man and God, for murder. Yet their action promises eternal life with God to 40,000 souls that otherwise would have lost that as they grew into rebellious adults. Seems like a pretty worthwhile trade, the potential eternal damnation of 1 person against he assured eternal salvation of 40,000.

Don't speak out of ignorance. Ooops, I guess you have no choice.

Seriously, you don't understand Bob's position and therefore you misrepresent him horribly.

I suggest you call Bob so you can be less ignorant of his position on such matters.

ThePhy said:

Second – Bob maintains the commonly held idea that infants that tragically die in infancy go to live with God.

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Will ThePhy be man enough to say "I am sorry, I stand corrected"?

Bob, has never said what you accuse him of saying in your opening post. That is not Bob's position! Where do you get this stuff? Do you just make it up out of thin air?

I assert ThePhy has a unhealthy infatuation with Bob Enyart and possibly the authorities should be notified. :noid:

novice said:

Will ThePhy be man enough to say "I am sorry, I stand corrected"?

Bob, has never said what you accuse him of saying in your opening post. That is not Bob's position! Where do you get this stuff? Do you just make it up out of thin air?

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I'd be interested in hearing his position, or yours: Are those who die in infancy damned with the rest of the unsaved masses of humanity?

Knight said:

Seriously, you don't understand Bob's position and therefore you misrepresent him horribly.

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I did not intentionally misrepresent Bob. If I was wrong about his views, can you specifically tell me where? I have no problem in admitting that I misrepresented him, if you show me what his real position is.

To help, is my claim that you believe that most people are going to hell incorrect? And then, is my claim that the souls of innocent children go to God incorrect? Those are the two premises that I built my scenario on.

And no, I am not particularly interesting calling Bob’s show. I would expect his followers to have considered this question themselves, long ago. Was I wrong? Can you answer without running to him for answers?

Hmmm, should someone murder 50,000 children? :think:

Great question The Phy, I've probed around this before.
Though many maintain that the children belong to God I know that Knight says people that die before the age of accountablity are matured in heaven and then given a choice to be with God or go to hell. Details as to how this all goes down are pretty thin.
By the way, according to the Christians the person who does the murdering will go to heaven as well as long as he is washed in the blood of Jesus (saved).

i'm incredibly interested to hear an explanation to this scenario, some clarification on the premises would be great too:thumb:

do infants go directly to heaven when they die? will most of the infants grow up to be hellbound reprobates? if someone were to murder 50,000 infants in exchange for the fate of his own soul, would it be a worthy trade?

i can't wait

allsmiles said:

i'm incredibly interested to hear an explanation to this scenario, some clarification on the premises would be great too:thumb:

do infants go directly to heaven when they die? will most of the infants grow up to be hellbound reprobates? if someone were to murder 50,000 infants in exchange for the fate of his own soul, would it be a worthy trade?

i can't wait

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You've got a short memory, allsmiles. It was explained to you in recent months. Do you remember at all?

Turbo said:

You've got a short memory, allsmiles.

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i do...:think:

what are you talking about?

allsmiles said:

i do...:think:

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(Maybe it's time to lay off the weed.)

what are you talking about?

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http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=853172#post853172

Turbo said:

(Maybe it's time to lay off the weed.)


http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=853172#post853172

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oh yes, i remember your unbiblical daydream hypothetical quite well now...

i don't recall you supplying biblical evidence for this assertion and i don't expect you to now, so please don't expect me to accept this as a final answer to this quandry.

seeing as how the Sempai has provided a miserable excuse for a satisfying answer, my questions remain as do i am certain the questions of ThePhy.

allsmiles said:

oh yes, i remember your unbiblical daydream hypothetical quite well now...

i don't recall you supplying biblical evidence for this assertion and i don't expect you to now, so please don't expect me to accept this as a final answer to this quandry.

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Could you do me a favor and direct me to a post in which you (or anyone else for that matter) presented biblical evidence for the assertion that everyone who dies as a baby has no choice but to spend eternity in heaven with God?

Turbo said:

Could you do me a favor and direct me to a post in which you (or anyone else for that matter) presented biblical evidence for the assertion that everyone who dies as a baby has no choice but to spend eternity in heaven with God?

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I don't recall anyone saying they had no choice.
What I recall from my exchange with Knight in the ask Knight thread was:
Children are matured, retards are unretarded, crazies are uncrazied, and then they get to make a choice.
There are obviously alot more questions that this answer spawns.
My main one is: How does Yaweh mature a child in heaven?

Turbo said:

Could you do me a favor and direct me to a post in which you (or anyone else for that matter) presented biblical evidence for the assertion that everyone who dies as a baby has no choice but to spend eternity in heaven with God?

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Turbo, i can direct you to my first post on this thread...

do infants go directly to heaven when they die? will most of the infants grow up to be hellbound reprobates? if someone were to murder 50,000 infants in exchange for the fate of his own soul, would it be a worthy trade?

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that's what i'm asking.

ThePhy said:

I did not intentionally misrepresent Bob. If I was wrong about his views, can you specifically tell me where?

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OK...

You misrepresented him here...

Second – Bob maintains the commonly held idea that infants that tragically die in infancy go to live with God.

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Now, will you admit you spoke without actually having any idea whatsoever how Bob views this issue?

allsmiles said:

Turbo, i can direct you to my first post on this thread...



that's what i'm asking.

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And you've been answered.

:think:

perhaps i should have been a little more specific and asked for a scriptural foundation for the idea that infants, when they die, go to heaven, your lord and savior in conjunction with the other two persons of the trinity mature the infant to a point where they can choose between heaven and hell.

that does leave us with yet another quandry of course... is free will actually involved in this situation, seeing as how if one is faced with a real choice between heaven and torment, he/she would most certainly choose heaven.

but that is a digression of course

Turbo, can you provide scripture to support this? or have you poor guys been misrepresented again? if i have misrepresented you, please bare with me, explain it to me for real this time, use scripture and put me in my place, rather than your typical alternative of waiting for me to guess what you actually believe.

allsmiles said:

:think:

perhaps i should have been a little more specific and asked for a scriptural foundation for the idea that infants, when they die, go to heaven, your lord and savior in conjunction with the other two persons of the trinity mature the infant to a point where they can choose between heaven and hell.

that does leave us with yet another quandry of course... is free will actually involved in this situation, seeing as how if one is faced with a real choice between heaven and torment, he/she would most certainly choose heaven.

but that is a digression of course

Turbo, can you provide scripture to support this? or have you poor guys been misrepresented again? if i have misrepresented you, please bare with me, explain it to me for real this time, use scripture and put me in my place, rather than your typical alternative of waiting for me to guess what you actually believe.

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There does not seem to be any scripture which directly addresses the infant death scenario.

Being human, people want answers. They make them up as best they can. Being human answers, they may or may not be correct.

Some Christians believe that children are not responsible until they reach the "age of accountability".

Most pagans like to attack Christians. Why they do this I do not really understand. One would think that they would rather try to maximize their short time on Earth. I suppose they could claim that putting down believers is a form of recreation and they maximize their pleasure this way.

I doubt this rationalization. It could be that they hate the idea that some people have faith and they don't, but we can never know for sure. Even the people who do this may not really know the real reason for their behavior.

Only God knows for sure how He handles infant death. I trust Him, for His way will undoubtedly turn out to be the best one (and will also be very surprising too, I predict).

As far as free choice is concerned, people seem to have free choice regarding how much and what food they eat. Nevertheless, some people get obese, eat foods bad for them and as a result get sick, suffer and die before their time. Why? Too hard. I'll do it tomorrow.

Similarly some people know (or at least suspect) that if they do not repent and follow Christ they will die in their sins and not get to live with God. Still they put off repentance. Why?

I guess they feel they are good enough and don't need to repent. Besides, it's too hard, and so maybe I'll do it tomorrow.

At the risk of subjecting my life to ridicule I will reveal why I resisted Christ for so long.

I considered such an action a real risk. It would require me to follow Christ wherever He wanted me to go and to do whatever He wanted me to do.

I didn't want to give up the wheel of my car of life to anyone. I wanted to be in charge.

What if I were asked to leave my family and go somewhere to minister to the poor? Who would take care of my wife and children?

I couldn't do it. Not without some sort of veto power.

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But I finally did.